Matt Abrahams: When you think about your favorite movie, my hunch is you like it so much because of its emotion and connection it has to you.
The use of emotion and connecting techniques can make all of our communication better.
My name is Matt Abrahams, and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business.
Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.
I am really excited today to talk with Jeff Small.
Jeff is the CEO of Amblin Partners, one of the world's leading independent film and television companies.
He regularly guest lectures at the Stanford GSB and is a member of Stanford's Los Angeles Arts Council.
Welcome Jeff.
Jeff Small: I'm so happy to be here.
Matt Abrahams: Yeah, shall we get started?
Jeff Small: Let's do it.
Matt Abrahams: As someone who helps bring major motion pictures to the world, you often have a front row seat, sometimes literally, to some of the biggest stories ever told.
To your mind, what makes for a good story?
Jeff Small: Wow.
There are so many elements, right?
Is it an entertaining story?
What's the style of the story?
Is it unique?
But the element that I always come back to is, does it make you feel something?
Are you happy?
Are you sad?
Do you think about the story after you've heard it or you've seen it?
I think about, after a movie and you're thinking about it the next day, or a book that you've read.
Does it move you?
And I think my boss, Steven Spielberg, is the best at that.
He's the master of making you feel something.
Every movie that he does makes you feel something and oftentimes many things.
And what that does is it gives the audience a connection to the story and to the storyteller.
That's often what I think about.
A good story makes you feel something.
Matt Abrahams: Yeah, that idea of feeling is so important.
And yet in a lot of business communication, we leave feeling out, it's all about the facts and the information.
Do you purposely think about how to bring emotion into the communication you have when you're doing the work you do?
Jeff Small: Sure.
What you're talking about is connection, right?
Are you connecting with the person that you're talking to?
You have to get across to your audience that whatever the communication is, is personal to you.
Otherwise, they'll smell it and they'll tune out and you won't connect, and it's kind of a waste of time at that point.
You really need the audience to understand that you care.
Matt Abrahams: So it's about showing that you care and it's about really focusing on that connection and feelings help you do that.
When you visit Stanford and lecture our students, you make the case that storytelling is critical to success in many facets of life.
Can you share with all of our listeners the arguments you make for the importance of storytelling in our personal and our professional lives?
Jeff Small: I think it's really important.
I do try to drive this home.
Think about the really impressive practitioners that you come across in your life.
So let's say it's a great doctor or an incredible teacher or a brilliant architect, right?
Or maybe even the waiter at your favorite restaurant down the street, right?
They all have something in common, and it's typically that they are good storytellers.
That doctor who has a good bedside manner, has to explain to you what's going on inside of your body, or maybe what's going to happen inside of your body with care and compassion, and they have to communicate it clearly to you.
Teachers are the greatest storytellers, right?
Teachers and professors, they can tell stories across all sorts of disciplines.
An architect, every angle, every flourish, every feature of whatever structure they're designing, that's telling a story.
What place does this structure have in whatever environment that you're in?
I don't know about you, but I have a much more fun time at a restaurant when you connect with the waiter and the waiter is telling you about a great dish or a great bottle of wine.
I think the point that I'm making is whatever walk of life you're in, you have to be able to tell a story to connect with people, to get across the message that you're trying to get across.
Even at Stanford, there's maybe a stigma that you have a bunch of people who want to go into coding.
And there's a stigma that coders don't really interact with humanity that often.
But the reality is that code, that's also a story.
What's the thesis of the code and what's the purpose of the code?
The end user of the code is, how's he or she going to feel about the code?
Maybe it's an investor.
What is the investor going to feel about it?
And in my own life, I think about my two daughters.
I tell them all sorts of stories all the time and they roll their eyes often.
But I certainly hope that my storytelling skills are good enough that they get some life lessons out of it.
Matt Abrahams: We share so much information through story, but many of us don't think of ourselves as storytellers.
And I am often confronted as you just alluded to by people who do technology work, financial work, medical work, and they say, hey, I'm just dealing with bits and bytes.
And really, I like to say, if you're impacting, saving lives, saving trees, saving money.
There is a story that you can tell there and honing that ability really makes a difference.
And I love that you're echoing that.
So effective stories, as you've shared, are moving and memorable.
What are some of the advice you give our students and maybe your daughters and others for what makes an effective story in terms of how you craft it?
What are the elements that go into a good story?
Jeff Small: Putting aside the typical three act play, a beginning, a middle, and an end, I think you have to start with yourself.
You can start with yourself because at the end of the day you're either the creator of the story or you are the delivery mechanism for the story.
So it's okay, start with yourself and think about the story that you're telling and why it matters to you.
Why is it personal to you?
What is your connection to it?
If there's no connection, the audience can smell it.
But there's got to be some reason that it's personal to you.
Let's say that you're giving a presentation in front of a bunch of random people.
Try to find some sort of connection.
It might be even as simple as, I want to get this deal done, right?
I certainly in my life, I remember doing a real estate deal years and years ago, and I'm not that interested in real estate, but I felt like I really wanted to achieve this.
I wanted to get this deal done.
And so I could be compassionate about it.
And I think my audience could feel that this is something that I wanted to get done.
And I think that coming across that way and thinking about why this matters to you, then you can turn around and think about your audience.
Then you can say, okay, this is for me.
Now I'm going to turn around and I'm going to connect it to you.
Matt Abrahams: I really like the advice of reflecting on the value and importance to you to help you focus, to help bring the right emotion that's congruent with the message.
And then you turn the attention to the audience.
Once you have that audience in mind, are there certain things that you look for in a good story from the students you teach, from the people who bring stories to you to perhaps be made into some kind of production of movie, television.
What are some of the elements that you look for besides the emotion that you've already talked about?
Jeff Small: I think especially these days you want stories to be unique.
You don't want to hear the same thing over and over again.
There's this stereotype that there's only five stories in Hollywood or a fish out of water and this and that and the other.
But basically there are a lot of stories and a lot of storytellers who really do the same thing over and over.
Find something unique.
This is not necessarily unique to you, but find something that maybe your audience sits there and thinks, I haven't really seen it like that before.
I haven't experienced this story that way before.
Because again, that's what's going to make that conversation or that story memorable.
Matt Abrahams: So part of it, it sounds like is not just thinking of what your story is, but what makes it unique and how can you share it in a way that might be different than what others have heard.
When it comes to managing a creative business, it seems to me that there could be lots of friction and challenges around creative people.
Business needs to be very predictable.
You need to be able to lay things out and forecast and creativity doesn't always work that way.
How do you think about this and how do you navigate this tension?
Jeff Small: It's a great question.
I'm not sure that everyone in our business feels this way, I have a very specific point of view.
And that's that self awareness is underrated.
And I feel like I'm very self aware about my place in the industry and also my place at Amblin.
Amblin is a business, it is.
And I came up through the business side, but our greatest asset is Steven Spielberg and our team and the creativity that flows through him and them.
And when talented artists and creative types want to do business at Amblin, they want to do it because of Steven, right?
And our team, it's not necessarily because of me.
Because of that, the creativity and the art has to be the primary priority of what we do.
That's our focus.
And I really firmly believe that really good stories will win more than they lose.
And the earnings will follow.
All of the earnings issues and output minimums and whatever financial metrics that you want to put on top of things.
Good stories win.
Matt Abrahams: There's a theme in the work you do.
Stories are important and good stories win.
Recognizing and having that self awareness is really important and I can imagine, just like you come from the business side, having the creative people recognize their contribution to the business, and that it is a business, that can be helpful as well.
What best practices do you leverage to help manage and negotiate the inevitable conflicts and challenges that arise in any organization?
Jeff Small: Nobody likes conflict.
Actually, some people do like conflict, and I've certainly dealt with a lot of them.
Matt Abrahams: Right, right.
Jeff Small: Let's just assume that most people prefer not to have conflict.
But it's inevitable, right?
And I certainly end up in conflict a lot of times myself.
My rule of thumb is, you need to work it out in person, face to face, not on email, not on text where you can hide behind whatever device you have.
I would like to sit with the person that I'm in conflict with and talk it out.
You make contact and you learn so much more about what that person is thinking or going through or their point of view.
Maybe I need to apologize for something I did.
Maybe I'm wrong about something.
Maybe I just have a better insight as to why we are in conflict, but I've definitely found looking at conflict that way makes it much, much easier to resolve, in a way, they don't feel terrible about it in the end.
You know, certainly there's a lot of times that I am brought in or asked to mediate a conflict between two of our team members.
I prefer not to do that at first.
I always give them the advice that they should meet together in person and try to work it out that way.
If the boss comes in, it'll feel like I'm taking sides and people feel bitter afterwards and no one wants to do that.
I will come in and help mediate if I need to.
But the first thing that should always happen is, let's talk it out.
Let's make contact with each other.
Let's try to figure out what it is that we're all trying to achieve.
And I would say more often than not, that makes people feel better at the end.
Matt Abrahams: Again, a theme through what you've been talking about is this notion of connection.
Something that helps you manage conflict, but you encourage others to do is to connect face to face in person.
And then it sounds like listen and appreciate what the other person's perspective is to help get at that.
And if nothing else, at least we all can feel better about how it went down, even if it didn't resolve in the way we wanted.
I have a question harkening back to something we talked about earlier.
Strikes me that a lot of your life is putting things on screens, at the same time, I know you have two kids.
What's your position on screen time and social media.
You play a role in that, I feel.
In your business perspective, how do you think about that?
Jeff Small: I'll go two ways at it.
Okay, so with my kids, I encourage them to watch a lot of movies.
But look, I grew up in that and I got a lot of value when I was a kid watching movies.
I just loved them, right?
TV too.
I watch a lot of TV and watch a lot of sports.
So they watch a lot of movies.
And one of the reasons is I want them to experience what I experienced.
But also I like to talk to them about it when it's over.
It's another topic of conversation.
What did you think of that?
You know, a lot of the movies I loved, they do not love.
It's slow for them and that's okay.
But so as far as those screens are concerned, I encourage that.
My daughters don't spend a lot of time on social media, and I don't think that's any great parenting on my part.
It just is the way that they are.
I do feel a little bit lucky about that.
Again, because I think I would rather have a situation where they are interacting with their friends and talking to them and connecting with them than hiding behind their phones and escaping in that manner.
At their school, they just recently had instituted a no cell phone rule.
And it's not really about texting, it's about social media.
It's about connecting and having human touch with each other.
And I'm very supportive of that.
I think that's great.
Matt Abrahams: I really like that you take the time to use the screen time, the watching the movies, the television, as an opportunity to then initiate and spark conversation.
In some ways, that's what storytelling does, is it affects us, and then you have conversations about it and impact.
So I love that you're living that out in your own life and distinguishing between what happens on a big screen and a television and a small screen when somebody's in social media is really important.
The content is different and the impact is different.
I know you work in an industry that's had a tremendous amount of flux, a lot of change internally and also externally with what's going on, streaming, AI, all of these things.
How do you lead and manage through change like that and flux like that.
I can imagine it can be very disorienting and distracting.
Jeff Small: It is.
I'm sure generations before us have all said that they've gone through all sorts of turmoil.
But I feel like in the last decade, the entertainment industry has gone through more turmoil than maybe the hundred years before it.
We've had COVID.
We've had labor stoppages.
We've had the disruption of streamers.
We've had all sorts of things that make it really hard to manage the industry.
It's been difficult.
And so for my team, it can be paralyzing for them.
They might one day sit there and think, okay, what am I supposed to be doing?
How do I do it right?
How do I know that I'm picking the right scripts?
How do I know that people are going to like the things that I'm picking?
Making commercial art is really difficult when there are tornadoes flying around all over the place, right?
So here's the way that I look at it.
First of all, don't stop communicating.
Don't go silent.
Let everyone feel like they can talk about how hard it is.
Look, I'm an optimist by nature, but sometimes you can't be an optimist, it's hard.
And I think it's okay for people to talk about their challenges that they're going through and whatever their role is at the studio.
The second thing is to remind them why they do what they do, right?
We're in the movie and television business.
It's fun, okay?
They get to work for Steven Spielberg.
That's amazing.
That's why they got into this business, is to tell stories and do the things that we do.
They believe in the stories that Steven tells and that they tell.
And so you got to remind them that's why you're here.
The last thing is that they're really good at what they do.
And I try to remind them of that and thank them for that as much as I can.
Because I think that people actually like to do things that they're good at and they like to be appreciated for what they do.
Matt Abrahams: Taking that time to really, again, connect, to recognize and to help remind people about what the motivation is and will be, can help bring a calmness when that tornado is spinning around you.
Uh, I think there's a lesson for all of us in this, even if we're not in an industry that's being disrupted and challenged as yours, that we can really come back to the connecting with the people, honoring and respecting what they do and reminding folks about how focused we are.
Jeff, before we end, I ask everybody three questions.
The first one I make up just for you and the other two are similar.
Are you ready for this?
Jeff Small: Oh boy.
Okay.
Matt Abrahams: You and I were talking immediately prior to some big changes coming up for people in our family.
What advice do you give to people who are on the precipice of big change, big opportunities, is there something you tell them to focus on?
Jeff Small: Don't fight it, right?
Experience it.
I think about my daughter as she's about to go to college.
Go experience it.
Go find things.
Go do things that you're not used to doing.
If you're walking into a, to a big new change that's giving you some sort of opportunity, lean into it.
Go for it.
Experience it.
Love it.
How are you ever going to find out about the rest of the world or yourself if you don't experience these new things?
You might be nervous or you might be anxious about that new job, but this is great.
Go do it.
Matt Abrahams: Yeah.
I think it's very normal and natural to get into the worry and the fear and the what ifs, but I agree.
It's all about seize the opportunity and lean into it and really explore.
A little bit of reflection along the way can really help too.
Question number two.
And I'll be really curious to know your answer to this.
Who is a communicator that you admire?
And why?
Jeff Small: So obviously there are so many possible answers to this.
And I think the no brainer would be Steven, but I'm going to go off book.
All right?
So I'm a baseball nut.
All right?
So I'm going to choose Vin Scully, who is the legendary broadcaster for the Dodgers.
You know, I've heard a thousand zillion baseball broadcasts in my life and Vin was the best.
So what Vin would do is that he would take a two to three hour baseball game, and he would walk you through the game, and he would modulate his tone of voice, and he would tell incredible stories while the action is going on.
But what Vin did really, really well, he mastered rhythm, okay?
Because Vin knew that he wasn't the star, right?
The game was the star.
So what Vin knew how to do, was Vin knew how to explain what was happening.
He also knew when to shut up so that you could experience what was going on on the field yourself.
My favorite Vince Scully call of all time was his call of Hank Aaron's 715th home run, which beat Babe Ruth's all time record in 1974.
I want to read it.
So here's what he does.
Fastball.
There's a high drive into deep left center field.
Buckner goes back to the fence.
It's gone.
Full stop, okay?
Vin stops at that moment for twenty-six seconds.
Okay, twenty-six seconds, which is an eternity on air.
Hank Aaron's rounding the bases.
There's a couple guys that run on the field and run the bases with Hank.
He comes around and he scores and then after twenty-six seconds, Vin starts up again.
And this is what he says, what a marvelous moment for baseball.
What a marvelous moment for Atlanta and the state of Georgia.
What a marvelous moment for the country and the world.
A black man is getting a standing ovation in the deep South for breaking a record of an all time baseball idol.
And it is a great moment for all of us and particularly for Henry Aaron.
It's just perfect.
He's not just the narrator, but he's enabling us and allowing us to feel the gravity of that moment.
It's beautiful.
Matt Abrahams: It's all about the feels there.
Thank you for reading that and sharing it.
And you did so expertly, by the way.
I really appreciate you helping us understand rhythm is important in storytelling and sometimes it's what you don't say that can actually make you an effective communicator.
Final question, what are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?
Jeff Small: Okay, so I've thought about this.
The first one is purpose.
Why are you telling this story?
What is the goal?
You have to have that or your audience will check out.
If there's no goal, they will smell it right away.
You have to have some purpose behind what you're trying to communicate and the audience has to know it.
The second one is to listen.
And I mean listening with your ears, but also your eyes.
What is your audience telling you while you're telling the story?
Are they bored?
Are they ignoring you?
Are they angry?
There's so much information that goes back and forth between the storyteller and the audience.
And being able to read and interpret that information not only makes your story better, the one that you're telling right now.
But it also makes you a better storyteller in life, right?
Being able to read that audience that way.
The last thing is care about your audience.
Make sure you show that you actually, it's not a one sided dialogue.
You actually want the audience to care about what you're trying to tell them.
I think of successful marketing campaigns, okay?
They're the type of marketing campaign, some of them, where they just shove the materials down your throat.
They're the other ones that are much more delicate and they sell their movie in a way that makes the audience want to have ownership of it, to find it themselves, right?
You're caring about your audience, wanting to really love what you're selling, and then tell their friends about it, right?
Those are often some of the biggest word of mouth hits ever.
And that's because the people who are marketing it, they care.
They sure they're showing that they care.
They want you to own this movie.
Matt Abrahams: Having a clear purpose, taking the time to listen, and then finally really caring about the audience and seeing it from their perspective.
Important ingredients for sure.
And certainly helpful ingredients in all communication.
Jeff, this has been fantastic.
The emphasis on storytelling through connection and emotion, really important in all communication.
And the insights that you provided into how we can be better managers and leaders through conflict through change, really beneficial.
Thank you.
Jeff Small: I really enjoyed it.
Thank you.
Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.
To learn more about leadership, please listen to episode 153 with Tara VanDerveer and episode 35 with Jeff Immelt.
This episode was produced by Jenny Luna, Ryan Campos, Aech Ashe, and me, Matt Abrahams.
Our music is from Floyd Wonder.
With special thanks to the Podium Podcast company.
We recorded this episode at the Spotify studios in Los Angeles, and we are grateful for the help of Haley Muse and Travis Morningstar.
Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts, be sure to subscribe and rate us.
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