Trey: Hello and welcome back to another episode of MCU Need to Know, a podcast
dedicated to the Marvel Cinematic Universe and everything you need to know.
I'm Trey,
Jude: I'm Jude.
How are you doing Trey?
Trey: You know, what's so funny to me.
I know I've definitely talked to you about this.
I've made some jokes here and there on, on Twitter, but I've poked
fun at how we're kind of the slow pokes of the MCU podcast community.
Just because of the, the time it takes for us to release our episodes
on the Disney plus shows, it is very fitting that the last episode of
2021 is the last episode of Hawkeye.
And I'm really tickled by how that is aligned here for us this week.
Jude: You know what it's, it's so funny.
Like I haven't done a lot of Christmasy things, you know, just to add onto
that whole slow poke mentality, like Christmases I wants to hear and it's
like, haven't really done Christmasy stuff and I need to finish the
Christmas shopping, but it's weird.
Like we just gave my three kids today.
As, and I have to see this, the context.
So today, as we record on the 23rd, the December, they got
their Christmas gifts today.
Trey: It's wild.
I mean, we've talked about it so often how one division started and
it feels like it just has just been pedal to the metal since then, but
to be here at this last episode of 2021 it's so it's a weird feeling.
And I most importantly, just want to let people know that we're,
we're so thankful for everybody that has been listening to this year.
Cause, uh, it's been a wild year as far as getting new listeners,
putting out new episodes.
And I don't know, I'm feeling overly sentimental, which I guess is
appropriate for this time of year.
I
Jude: love this time of year.
I really do.
I generally get super sad on January 2nd and I always have, and it's one
of those things where I feel like the fall season, it's just, there's
a change in the weather feels fall.
There's like a slow build of holidays.
Trey: The fall is the, the exhale of the year.
And, uh, I don't know.
It feels, it feels good to be at the, I guess the pinnacle of it as we get ready
for Christmas and new year's here soon.
Yeah.
But of course, speaking of things, coming to an end that we are here with
season one, episode six of Hawkeye and titled, so this is Christmas.
Uh, the way we're going to do this is we have some pre spoiler thoughts
where we're going to talk about the episode without spoiling it.
So if you haven't seen the episode, this is a chance for you to listen in
and see what we thought without being.
After that we'll jump into the spoiler zone where it will be fair
game for all spoilers in the MCU.
And again, because of the proximity of, Spider-Man no way home, I am
going to remind people once more, that because of the limited access
with going to the theaters, Spider-Man no way home and Eternals will
be exempt from the spoiler zone.
So if you haven't seen those either, uh, we will not discuss those films as well.
So with that being said, dude, do you have any pre spoiler
thoughts for the finale of Hawkeye?
Jude: Okay.
The first thing I was about to lead with and I just stopped myself.
Cause you said finale, uh, was probably more for the whole show.
Now I'm going to go with it.
This is.
My favorite, this is my favorite series and show the finale.
I think they landed it, you know?
I mean, we'll get into it.
I think there's a couple of things that could have done different, you know?
Um, I like to backseat.
Right.
But, uh, yeah.
Uh, but overall, like as far as the finales go, especially you
thinking about the four shows we got through 20, 20, 20, 21 to
Trey: 2021.
Yeah.
20, 21 and also five shows, sir.
I was
Jude: the one.
Yeah.
Okay.
Well I was thinking, just live action.
Trey: I got you.
I I'm teasing.
Jude: So yeah, no, no, no, no.
Like in my head I was just thinking of live action.
Um, because we, for me, what if is still something.
Of the MCU rather than a part of it, although we know that that's changing
it, you know, but in my head, just the live action Disney plus shows
this one's I think is my favorite.
And as far as finales go, it is one B to Loki's one a as
an individual episode finale.
Trey: Oh, wow.
I really liked the way that you put that.
Yeah.
Jude: So pre spoiler thoughts for tricks.
This is better than the truck.
It's not as good as party Thor.
Am I right?
Trey: You nailed it, man.
I feel like I can kick back this episode.
Why don't you go ahead and take over for me.
I'm glad you got at least a one more in before we in the year
Jude: 20, 20 one's ending.
Um, and the joke will
Trey: never end.
Jude: We'll have to find, we'll have to find something
else in the next set of shows.
Oh man.
Trey: Oh, that's fantastic.
Well, you know what?
My priest boiler thoughts, I'm going to play off the way you did it.
One series as a whole, and one on the finale in particular, you know,
sticking with the pre spoiler thought.
I put it on social media.
Uh, I wrote episode to episode.
I've enjoyed the series, but as a whole, it feels like it fumbled
Clint story here at the end.
And if you've been listening to as week to week, you know, I spotlighted what I
was concerned about last episode, and it feels like that has followed into this.
But that was cause, I mean, I texted you immediately after I watched it.
And I was a little upset with the finale, but having watched it multiple times since
then, I've realized how much the issue I have really stems from episode five.
And I tried to focus on just this finale as a whole.
And I think the priest thought the second part of the priest boiler thought
that I wrote that I'm really trying to zone in on is that Kate and Yulaina
are undeniably the future of the MCU.
And that at least for me is rock solid throughout the finale.
And that has me really enjoying what they've put here
in this six episode for as
Jude: little screen time as.
Yeah, you're right.
Rock solid.
Trey: Yeah.
If you listen to our, in tag last week, we spotlighted Tommy Lee Jones
making the most out of a little Kate and Elena 100% made the most out of a
little with their on-screen pairing.
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
Well, cool.
I think, uh, I think we can leave that there until we get into the spoiler zone.
So like we said, you're going to hear an audio cue and on the other side, it'll
be fair game for all spoilers in the MCU.
We'll see.
On the other side
and we're back.
So the way we're going to do this, as we're going to break it down into
the most important topics, which is a way for us to discuss the episode
without having to go scene by scene, the first most important topic we are
going to discuss is party preparations.
So there are a couple of major things we need to touch on, which is we have
a scene where a little Eleanor is confronting Fisk, uh, Fisk confronts,
Maya and Caitlin Clint get prepared for the party after the revelation
of Eleanor's association with Fisk.
So starting with you, Jude, is there anywhere you'd like to start in particular
Jude: party preparation?
It's a Christmas movie and show like on Disney.
Plus if you click their holiday collections, it includes.
Like, they're really pushing this hard as is Disney and just
really pushing as hard as yeah.
As, um, uh, Christmas.
And that's what you did.
You have Christmas parties unless you're introverted like us where
we just party amongst ourselves.
Uh, I mean family, but for the most part, it's just introvert's dream.
Um, um, you know what I am going to start with with the big guy, Wilson, Fisk, uh,
I had mixed feelings about Wilson Fisk and this part here, I really enjoyed, you
know, um, I think I've seen and read and even heard some stuff from, from friends.
You're gonna fall into this trap of comparing them to the Netflix shows.
I was wondering how Marvel was going to handle this.
If they were going to.
And the Netflix and we did this, we did season one.
They really build up to Fisk.
You know, it's
Trey: not until episode four, I think.
Jude: But even when you start seeing them, you know, he's the big, bad, and
it just becomes so much more intimidating and so much more menacing, you know?
And that was one of the issues with my cousin.
Paul texted me about it was like, it just didn't feel very intimidating.
And I, and I made me wonder did it, was that because they're making an assumption
on the audience's part of either being familiar from Netflix, or we keep
teasing as some big bads out there that we've set those seeds that we've done
enough so we can jump right into it.
Or is there some assumption that we know who kingpin is?
So you jumped right into it.
Like, I I'm just, I'm curious what the thought process was there.
But for me, I really enjoyed that intro.
Uh, I liked because I recognized the voice and I think having that net, you know,
that Wilson Fisk voice, and I think having that Netflix experience level for me, it
was just like, oh, that's Wilson, Fisk.
You know, it didn't seem out of place.
If that makes sense.
So the way he was acting the lines temper,
Trey: oh 100%.
I mean, one of, one of my straight notes is, are sweaty mob bosses back.
And, uh, that was one of the humorous things that I picked
up on that they've carried over.
But on a more serious note, something that I appreciated is when we spotlighted
him in Daredevil, one of the things we kept highlighting was how, at his core,
he didn't see himself as a bad guy.
He thought he was fair.
He thought he was reasonable and that he would give people adequate chances.
So to hear him throw lines to Eleanor, like in the spirit of the holidays, I'm
going to give you one more chance to reconsider or whenever Maya's asking for
some time off, he goes, that's reasonable.
It's it's the same Fisk to me like that, that, that presence is there
as well as the way he views himself.
And the thing that I, 100%
definitely a people person, well, you know what, that kind of segues
into what I was going to say.
If you haven't seen the Daredevil shows, he definitely has a troubled past.
Like, there is a reason why he's become that villain that we see them
in that first season of Daredevil.
And it is because of that childhood that was robbed from him.
So some of that socializing isn't there.
And the thing that I remember loving from that first season of Daredevil
is that when he's trying to be sincere and trying to be the fair person,
he often stumbles over his words and he's very awkward and very shy.
But the thing that I think makes Fisk such a cool character or a compelling
character is that his language is rage.
And when he's angry, that is the most fluent, his sentences are.
And that is carried over here in this Hawkeye show.
Yeah.
Jude: Oh, I liked the way you put that.
Cause it really is.
Um, it just, the speech patterns, Vincent D'Onofrio is just he's he's kingpin.
Oh, so glad.
So glad they were able to bring him back and he was willing to do it.
Now.
It, I do find it interesting is like, I can't, it's just the use
of him throughout the episode.
Um, I've already sent my appreciable other thoughts.
Sure this episode is one B to Loki's one, a right.
But I did find it interesting.
And I'm really looking forward to going through all six episodes again,
now that they're out, rather than the one at a time speculations over,
I know what happens, all that stuff.
And to take it in because my first note opens up on kingpin with Eleanor to
set her up as the villain, but the show didn't really have a person as a villain,
similar to similar to Wanda vision.
You know, I mean, what, like Fisk is supposed to be the big, bad,
and that king punish kind of way.
But his, it was always just this looming threat that never really,
it was like, as long as we stand up his radar, we can do all of this.
You know what I mean?
And.
It's like, it was there to give Eleanor reason, but she wasn't
really villain per se, if that makes sense throughout the show.
Yeah.
Um, and so, and so I'm, I'm, you know, and looking back, going back and watching
Wanda, Wanda vision, you know, Agatha Harkness really wasn't a traditional
villain and grief was the, the, the main concept that we're wrestling with.
I want to go back and look through this again and see,
okay, what are we wrestling with?
What does that through line?
You know, I mean, family is clearly part of it, but I'm just, I'm just curious.
I want to connect more of those dots cause that's not.
Um, I just, by the end of it, didn't think of this show is
having a villain and a traditional.
Trey: And I can see that because again, like you said, they allude to Fisk.
He doesn't really show here show until here in this finale.
Um, and even, and I'm kind of speaking broadly here.
I know this isn't part of the most important topic, but I often
found myself wondering, okay, what is the overall objective here
a lot throughout this episode?
Like I understood the, the, the minor conflicts.
Cause you had, you know, Clint versus Yulaina you had Maya versus Kasi.
You had Kate versus Fisk, but nothing felt like, um, a major, like how we talk
about the villain brings out the best in the hero because it is the manifestation
of the thing they're wrestling with.
I was listening to you and trying to figure out, okay, what is that here
in this episode and or the series?
And I don't know if I have a complete answer yet.
So I would like to revisit it the same way that you are bringing that lens to it.
Jude: Yeah, I, hopefully I will have a good answer for the wrap-up episode.
Yeah.
Trey: Which we are for sure.
Going to do a wrap-up episode.
I know we took a break with what if we will do one here for Hawkeye,
you know, sticking with Fisk though.
Uh, you did mention how we see the way Eleanor is connected to Fisk.
Um, we finally got the suspicions confirmed.
Uh, I want to be upfront and say I was wrong.
Jack was totally a Patsy.
Uh, I thought about it a lot in this episode.
I think I was just blinded by how much I enjoy the actor that I
wanted him to be something more.
But we can talk about it later, but just again, resigning to what a doofus.
I went so much more from that actor.
Jude: What I will talk about it more, but I think he gave us a lot, um, by the end.
And that's the other thing about watching this all together now?
Um, you know, but I do, you know, I remember thinking myself, okay,
Eleanor killed demand, Vermont demand, Armand, Vermont, Armando third.
Um, you know, and so, so it wasn't a surprise to me that she was, I don't
even want to use the word bad, like, you know, but if the idea of bad.
And I thought they used Jack well, would I also, would I re I was go back to Fisk.
I was really surprised how much of Fisk we got.
Um, I do want to comment on the clothes he was wearing.
I liked, I liked the first outfit and I know some people had issues
with the Hawaiian shirt later.
The only, I guess, timeline, that was the next day.
That was, that was really hard to tell of when my, when Maya, like,
like he didn't shirt change shirts mid day is what I'm thinking.
Trey: I'm taking it that like the Eleanor scenes or early on in the
day, because if we're taking the time that Kate receives the text
message, that feels like breakfast.
And so it feels like Yalaina took the video, sent it to Kate, and then
we saw that that was the same day.
So later on in the day, it, it takes place over 24 hours is an
easy way for me to summarize my
Jude: thoughts.
Okay.
You know, and then I thought, I can't, I like the scene with Maya and Kasi.
Um, and Fisk, I thought that was really well done.
I loved the interaction between them.
You know, it was interesting cause cause they, they pulled it off
very well where it's like Maya knew that they knew and they knew that
Maya knew, but they all just played it straight the best they could.
And like you could tell, uh, which is completely intentional and just
good performance on their part.
And that was, that was so much fun.
Um, but I, I do think there was an element though, also of like truth
of when kingpin did the, I love you.
And Maya did that back of like the, the anger and rage that Maya had
and like trying to avenge, use that word, avenge her father's death.
Man.
She basically was raised by Fisk.
Like there's an element of like, I think like she legitimate, like she, wasn't just
saying that to get out of the situation.
Like she'd meant it and you know what I mean?
And there was, um, And I, and I, I'm just trying to, I'm just thinking about like
how difficult that situation must've been.
Trey: Yeah.
We're definitely in the same space here.
Uh, one of the things that I noted is how it's almost poetic.
That Kasi is the one to interpret for Maya.
Because again, you brought up the word truth.
Kasi is literally speaking the truth, despite him keeping that
from her all these years, if we are to believe he is the informant.
And the reason that Maya's father is, is dead.
Um, and if that is the case, that that element of truth, that he has to speak
it, even though he hasn't revealed it to her, just plays into that feeling of the
three of them all know what's going on, but nobody's actually owning up to it.
Uh, so I thought that was wonderfully done.
And I think you spotlighted wonderful.
The rage that Maya's feeling and how that has turned into hurt as well,
because of the trust she used to have for Fisk and that genuine love
Fisk is equally hurt, and you can feel it in the way that he signs.
I love you back.
And so, you know, I know we haven't gotten there yet, but we're going
to get to the point where there is a supposed cliffhanger where
Fisk has been killed by Maya.
I'm in the camp that I don't actually think he's dead.
I think this scene right here is going to be a huge part of my, a show echo.
And I'm really looking forward to how they explore that because it even says
something on Fisk's part that he is able to sign American sign language
tour, like it's it's and the way that you break bread with somebody, or you
try to speak somebody's language first, even if you can't do it correctly, it's
a sign of respect and some and care.
So I like that they had Fisk trying to sign even for a little bit with
Kasi interpreting the majority of it, but he's genuinely trying there.
So there there's a lot going on in that short
Jude: scene.
Oh yeah.
That was the other thing I would think just as you mentioned all that,
like how, cause I kept saying from the beginning, I want more episodes.
I'm going to need more episodes.
But they were super efficient with all of them.
And even in this one, this sixth episode, that my call for more episodes
is more of a call now, like before it was a worry of like, man, how are they
gonna tell a story in six episodes?
I think they did it when I cut my word.
When I called now is more of just being a selfish person, wanting more.
Trey: How
Jude: dare you.
I know.
Right.
But like, so American of me, but like they, um, especially at Christmas
time, uh, but like, yeah, they said so much was done in such a short space
with just that quick conversation.
And I just want to add on one little thing here as well on that.
I love that I w that the way you were forced in that, that scene
here to really pay attention.
Cause like, I mean, you get this, I'm going to try to be careful because
I don't want to go too overboard.
Cause I don't, we have the wrap-up episode, but anytime Maya was on,
you had to pay closer attention because of the subtitles and
in the hand, the sign language.
But that, that really got you, especially in this interchange with Kasi.
Pretty much assuming he's the informant, you know, knowing he's the informant
and Fisk like their facial expressions, you know, beyond the words and just
paying that close of attention.
And I, and I think they're, in some ways it might've helped them be
efficient in that short period of time.
Trey: I, I totally see what you mean about it's.
It's two people who command the scene.
You have Vincent don't offer you as Wilson Fisk, and you have Eloqua
Cox as Maya and the American sign language and they are going well.
I'm trying to be careful here.
I'm assuming they're going to be central characters in the echo show
and it's wonderfully paired with people who are just commanding your
attention every time they're on screen.
Yeah.
I do want to say this.
I started to set it up, but I'm realizing, at least for me, if
you have anything, you can add it.
But at least for me, I'll have more to say about Eleanor and Fisk.
Once we get to the end of our most important topics.
Um, but I'll, I'll put a pin in that for now.
Uh, I do want to start moving into the direction of Kate
and Clint's preparations here.
And the thing that I think stood out to me the most is I go, I'm glad we got
that we're partner seen when we did, and I'm going to work through this because
I, I don't even know how to explain it.
I don't think Clint is lying, but the timing of the way he says it,
we're partners now feels less.
Of he truly believes she's ready and more that he trusts that she can, she can
grow into that person to be the partner.
And it's because he knows this is what she needs to hear in this moment because
of the way that she's unraveling with this revelation of her mom and the
things that she's been involved with.
And the second part of this opening scenes that makes me feel like this
is whatever they're working on, the arrows, uh, Clint stops and asks.
I just want to be sure you're ready for this.
Uh, to me that is trust and vulnerability and sincerity, which feels like a nice
place for Clint to be in, since that is one of his objectives as a character
that we've been working on all season.
Um, and so I, again, I don't know if that's making sense or if he felt
that way, but it's, it's felt more special than it just being like,
oh, Kate's here in this moment.
We're going to be partners.
Now.
I think it's Clint giving her some leeway to trust that she can be this year.
I
Jude: like the word I liked the way you're facing that out.
I'm gonna throw the word agency of just because she didn't, it was like
Clinton, let Kate have the choice.
You know, like you were saying, have that space, but he threw out the it's
like throughout the series, he held her back, not from a, it was like, it
was like training wheels, you know, it's, it's, it's like riding a bike
and holding the back of the seat with tr and you know, and then it was
like, you have these training wheels.
I'm gonna take that off, hold the back of the seat.
And then it's like, okay, are you ready?
You said, you want me to let go?
Are you really ready?
Like, does that
Trey: make sense?
One of the things I wanted to write in my notes, but it didn't quite feel right.
Of how parental it felt.
And I don't like, I'm not trying to make any misunderstandings that Clint's
trying to be a father to Kate, but there is something of that father,
child relationship of the way you put it beautifully, like holding onto
the bike and trusting that they're going to stay upright as you like.
Yeah.
Jude: And that's what I mean about this agency.
It was like, it was still Kate's choices all the way up in the way of, yeah.
I want to do this.
And he was very clear of like, this is what brings it brings about this is
what brings about and coming into the last, this finale, it's like, it's hard.
And you know, and she tried to say, look, I'm gonna take care of this.
And he's like, we're partners you're messes my mess, you know, but then
it's like, but at the same time, you're 22 and this is your mom.
And if you're not ready for this, it's okay.
You know what I mean?
And so I liked that that came after the admitting we're partners, you know?
Cause, cause it was can be completely different if like
you don't have to do this.
No, I want to.
Okay, cool.
We're partners, you know, it's like, no we're partners, your mess is my mess.
And I know it's your best.
And because of that, if it, you can't, if you don't think you can do it, it's okay.
You know, it wasn't a, like you can't, you're not a superhero.
If you can't do this, it's.
Hey, it's okay.
You know, and, and I, and I just love that, that element of it and I'm yeah.
Trey: Yeah.
And I'm glad again, I'm still in love with the way you phrase it, of the holding onto
the bike and let him go because I didn't want it to be so simplified of me just
saying like, oh, Clint told her because he knew that's what she needed to hear,
because that doesn't feel quite right.
Either it's it's trust and that's, that felt really good.
And I like that Kate's answer is finally the right answer where she goes through.
Like, when I saw you, I knew I didn't have to be afraid because if you could do the
things that you were doing and you can't fly and you can't shoot laser beams out
of your hand, I knew I could do the same.
And so she's walking through this realization, like it is the
verbal affirmation of the silent seed we got, where she was in her
room, looking at all her trophies.
The thing that makes her the hero is that even when she's afraid, she
still wants to do the right thing.
And that is the answer that Clint needed in that moment
to affirm his trust as well.
So it's a really great scene.
Oh
Jude: yeah.
Well, it's supposed to be scary.
Yeah.
Trey: One last thing, as we're talking about these Clint Kate scenes, I
would love an extended cut of them working on all those trick arrows.
Not only because I think it's humorous, like, especially the way
that Kate was going through and labeling them with a label maker.
But you know, so often I think, hopefully not anymore, hopefully there's been some
rehabilitation with the show, but so often Clint has been like the butt of the joke.
It's like, oh, he's just a guy who shoots arrows and is really good at it.
But showing the process of him constructing those arrows and like filling
above with the different little mechanics that he needs and then prepping for his
battle, I think it adds to the image of all the skills that go into what he does.
It's not just that, oh, he can't miss.
He's got some, know-how what these arrows are just really nice.
Oh yeah.
Jude: Yeah.
I like how he's able to, we see it in two ways really.
And we could probably see it in more if we really try to pick it apart,
but then, but then we get kind of.
You know, what, at what point are we getting too nitpicky?
Where he utilizes other people's skillsets, you know, it was a cool
thing to see the Pemero, but the fact that he was able to bring back and make
another Pemero and that he opened up this case, it had stark tips, you know,
and, and or stuff that he could use.
And so his ability to like, take what others do and incorporate
that in to the arrow was really
Trey: cool.
Yeah.
We.
Movies do we have in the MCU where we see people using PIM tech or stark
tech, and it's going horribly wrong, that alone speaks volumes to Clinton.
Jude: Like he dropped a little bit of that on like the wrong thing.
And all those arrows are like in the table.
There's like shrunk.
Yeah, that's gone.
Oh, room.
Trey: Well, unless there's any more, uh, I think we can go ahead and move
into the next most important topic.
All right.
Let's take a look.
Ooh.
I like what you did there.
The next most important topic is called taking a lap, and this is going to take
us through Kate and Clint arriving at the holiday party, uh, all the way through
the first half of that confrontation with the track suit mafia in the ice rink.
So we're starting with me this time and I think the most standout part of this.
Is 100% Kate Yulaina, you know, I talked about it in my priest,
Barlow thought undeniably.
They are the future of the MCU.
They are so good, man.
And, and you're right, that they don't have that many
scenes together, but it is so.
It's it's wild that they become the favorite scenes every time
they're in an episode together.
Uh, and this one specifically when they are in the elevator, that silent
moment before Kate tries to push all that, those buttons and Yulaina slabs
her hands and just goes, no, that will live rent-free in my head for
Jude: years.
Well, in the case like,
Trey: oh man, it's so good.
It speaks so much about them because I mean, we know Yulaina
is super skilled as an assassin.
She could dispose of Kate, like nothing, but it speaks to who she
is that even though Kate's being for lack of a better way of putting it
annoying, she, she tolerates it and she's just tried to keep her at bay.
And it speaks to who Kate is that.
Someone completely outmatched that she keeps trying and it somehow
works, which is it's so good.
Jude: So either we need to see this, or this will be my head cannon somewhere
Yulaina is charged training Kate as well.
Like she's going to have Yulaina training and Clinton Barton.
Oh, that'll be so good.
Even if they don't show it in my head, that has to, because
they've connected to well for like, Yulaina not to be like, yeah.
When you jumped off that building, here's a better way to do it.
Trey: Well, I mean, they're the legacy characters, right?
They are the new Clinton Natasha.
It makes sense that they have built a comradery.
So I I'm with you.
I want to see that friendship and mentorship take place.
What's so
Jude: great about it is how are you going to figure out what
flurries on he's in the elevator?
It's on 12, like, you know, it's just like, it's like so simple,
you know, but like, Kate's like, like thinking she's so clever.
Right.
And like any other, any other pair.
Hudson the elevator and fights like he's, but like you said, all
Kate's trying to do is just push all the buttons and the weight.
It's just like so annoying.
Trey: Oh man.
I wish I would have looked up what she says, the Russian curse that she throws
at you lane at Kate, because it's so good.
You could feel the frustration in her voice.
Yeah.
Well, and then even another moment, like I love when it gets to that scene
where they're just running through the office building and Kate is trying
desperately to slow her down and sometimes succeeding as the way she
makes her fall over on that chair.
It gets to the point where Kate is like blocking the door and she's like, come on.
What are we doing?
Why don't we just go grab a drink?
And Angelina's like, okay.
Yeah.
After I killed Barton, like they in any other world would be great
friends, but it just so happens.
They're trying to, you know, stop this huge thing of, of killing somebody.
Jude: Well, and of course, when Kate hits her in the cheek and you're like,
he just looks at her like, what was that?
But I just liked that you said it was that,
oh, I love that.
So if they're going to be the new Hawkeye Blackwood, Were they pulling their punches
Trey: 100%
Jude: like making civil
Trey: war.
I want to say yes, but poor Kate.
I think she's starting at pulled punches in comparison to your lake.
Yulaina is definitely pulling her punches, but I think that's where
the admiration comes from, because right before Yulaina jumps out the
window, uh she's like, oh, that hurt.
And then they start like, admiring, like, yeah, that was pretty good form.
Oh yeah.
And then just like, stop making me late.
Jude: Well, you had the cool body throw,
so yeah.
It's I think part of why, and there's no real analysis here.
I'm just gushing.
That's all I'm doing.
I think part of why I loved art, it felt like there was so much, it's
just how well the chemistry, the two of them on the screen and just how
well they bonded and how phenomenal.
Of a performance they did and so shorter time, but also I rewatched all their
scenes three or four times on both episodes, just I'm going to fast forward
or they're seeing it and watch it.
It's over.
I'm going to rewind fast forward to that and just watch it again.
Cause I, I just, it was just so good.
Yeah.
I
Trey: think I'm right there with the eyes.
It's at this point, it's just gushing of how good they work together.
Jude: Um, you know what it, again, it's a.
I mean, you got to figure out when was the runtime of this 49
Trey: minutes.
It was an hour and something that's including credits, post credits.
Jude: Okay.
So again, just super efficient, having those two characters, have those
moments, um, inner cutting with Hawkeye fighting, um, well kind of fighting,
I mean, the, the Causey, you know, when, when Kasi was across the way in
a window and then the, the tracksuit mafia inside the building and doing
all, all of that and be able to cut back and forth between there, um, super.
Like really move the, I want to say story along, because
even with it was just action.
You got, especially with K uh, Bishop, you got to know even
more of her seeing her in action.
Um, and then hog, I was just being Hawkeye, you know, and I don't
mean that in a downplaying kind of way, but it was just super fast.
Um, I'm still getting something out of those characters in these actions.
Trey: Yeah.
I excitedly jumped to the Kate and Elena stuff, but leading into this, like I was
so excited because as much as this show was not openly, but you could just feel
from the trailers as much as it was, as it was pitched as the diehard of the MCU.
I mean, this is Nakatomi tower.
Like everybody's arriving the dreads setting in as Kate and Clint arrive,
Eleanor rise, Yulaina arrives.
You see Kasi, like there's this pressure that builds that.
Finally lets go.
The moment Kasi shoots that first shot across the building and it's it's the
way everything breaks loose is so good because even have that wonderful moment
where Kate confronts her mom and the delivery she had of your, the reason
it's dangerous mom, like that was such a huge moment for, for Kate's character.
Um, to speak to what you said about what it's showing of Kate, what it's
showing of Clint and his consistency is just a, you know, he's doing his job.
This is what he does and he's good at it.
So, okay.
Jude: I'm I'm curious.
I know where I stand.
How'd you feel about them bringing the LARPers back in as their assets?
I.
Trey: Like it, I cannot help, but think of the things that you have brought up
the season about the way it's depicting these firefighters and police officers
and how it's, what commentary it's making that you see it here verbally,
they don't get respect until they put on a suit, which works funny in a
funny way, because it's like, oh, okay.
People think they're super heroes just because they're
in their medieval costumes.
But it's weird that like the only reason they get respect is because of that.
So I don't know if that's the intentional part of the show.
I dunno, it's it's I didn't feel that until the way you highlighted it, but for
the most part, I enjoy it just because they're charismatic people and I'm excited
to see them intertwined with the action.
Yeah.
I,
Jude: I love that they brought them back, um, and used them as much as they did.
And LARPing is not something I've ever done.
It's something, I think it would be fun.
I know I throw yet at you through yet out there, but there was a silent yet.
Um, just cause I think I would go do it.
Like, it just seems like it would be fun to go to, and I don't know, and I don't
think I would actually be any good at it.
So let me make that clear as well, but I still think it'd be fun to go
to and good is a very subjective term, I guess, when it comes to LARPing.
Um,
Trey: but you can tell my viewpoint on LARPing and this is hopefully not
too disrespectful, but my viewpoint on LARPing it's like, well, how
are you good at like, I mean, it's essentially the grownup version of like.
No, you didn't get me.
I activated my force field kind of thing.
Jude: Well, well, I mean, I guess, I guess it's, it's the it's is it I'm
thinking of when I say not good at it?
I think in my head I'm imagining like the character acting aspect of it and.
Like the sword fighting and getting beat, you know what I mean?
Uh, like I would go do it and I have fun and there's no like,
are you good or bad at it?
But just kind of like the letting myself go and get into the
character and then like not getting my butt kicked with the song.
Trey: Yeah.
I think making my joke demonstrated how not to be good at it, and it's
not playing into the believability,
you know, that's how you got to be good at it.
Jude: But again, I just, I, I liked that they used them at the beginning,
but they, but they were able to pull that all the way through, you know,
uh, grills was, uh, was awesome.
I loved grills did a lot with the short, short amount of time, you know?
And so that was really cool for me to see them.
You know, coming back, you know, and it's very classic hero's journey.
You gather friends and allies?
No.
So
Trey: they did, it was, it was heartwarming because of
the way they lean into it.
And they even get the callback of Gary because Clint is asking Kate
like, all right, what are our assets?
What are our threats?
And Kate's like, there's a threat.
And I kind of like tense up for a second.
There's Gary.
He's the only one who's fired me from the only job I've ever had.
And it's like, it's, it's a funny little.
Threat and then to turn to the assets and it's the LARPers like yeah.
It's, it's, it reminds me so much to, to bring it to another tangent, but one of my
favorite video games is mass effect too.
And part of it is you spend so long in that game, building
loyalty with your shipmates.
And so whenever you get to the final part of the mission, how well you do
depends on how much you've strengthened those relationships in the game.
This is that in the TV show forum, because they took the time and had the sincerity
and respect for those new friends here.
They are at the final mission and it pays out for them.
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
So I want to pose this though.
You know, so much of the show has been demonstrating.
Clint being an excellent marksman when it comes to his archery, but I'm starting
to suspect that Clint superpower is actually the ability to Dodge bullets
with shore shots, because we had Kasi who had him lined up with a sniper,
and then we had to Yulaina who was, who was running down the side of the
building and had him point blank.
And each time he has dodged the bullets.
So I'm starting to suspect that's his secret superpower in this series?
Yeah,
Jude: he's uh, he's.
He's like the flash.
Trey: Oh man.
You know, I, I use that joke to set up what I want to talk about,
but I do like that we got the Kazi Clint hand-to-hand confrontation.
I thought that was really well done.
If I could nitpick a little bit, I would have.
Like it felt like this would have been the moment to have some sort of confirmation
of Causey's involvement with the potential of doing a way of Maya's father.
Like somehow letting Clinton know.
Um, I think this would have fit there and I would have added to the emotional
stakes of their fight somewhat.
Uh, but even without that, I thought it was still pretty
enjoyable, especially the way.
Cause he was like, oh, this is going to be fun.
And then Clinton like slams into the ground and Clint's
like, yeah, you're right.
That was fun.
Jude: Yeah.
This is where I'm going to have one of my first problems.
Um, I agree with you.
The sequence was funny.
Like, I, I liked the sequence, but it felt out of place that
Causey we'd be doing that.
Like, like am I think through Kasi, through the rest of the show, he
never felt like a man I'm going to enjoy this kind of kind of guy.
You know what I mean?
He always felt like he was, he was going along with Maya and when she was
there to kind of hold her back and it just seemed like such a switch for him.
For
Trey: me, what's missing is partly what I talked about.
I wish there would've been some confirmation of his involvement with the.
And partly it's, it's also what I talked about earlier in, in feeling like I
don't quite understand the motivations of some of these, these players here.
Like I get the basic, like protect Eleanor.
Okay.
One of my lingering questions and we can get more into it
whenever we do the wrap-up it's still like, outside of knowing.
The watch identity, which we'll get to later, it was never clear why that was
so important to the tracksuit mafia.
And we talked about it before we at first believed it was Maya who was hunting
that down, which may have insinuated.
She knew Clint was Ronin prior, because why else would that
watch be important to you?
And then we suspected, well, maybe it was Kasi who was hunting down that watch,
because that was another way to ensure his involvement with that night that Maya's
father was murdered, wouldn't come into play, but other than just wiping out the,
the troublemakers for trouble sake for the tracksuit mafia, it felt like they
were missing an emotional motivation and that was your moment to do it.
So that's where I feel I can see how it was out of place
for you for the character.
Jude: Yeah, you're right.
Like, like, I don't know who really was trying to get the watch originally.
So as the tracksuit mafia, Y who wanted it and if they would have, like you
said, if they would've taken that here and truly just made it Causey,
you know, give him something, right.
It just, it just didn't.
Yeah.
Like, yeah, that would work.
And that would make sense.
Otherwise, as it stands, I'm like, I didn't dislike Kasi throughout
the series, but that was a moment of like, Hmm, this didn't feel right.
You know, I have wondered to what extent did they have to do rewrites and reshoots?
Uh, well, let me rephrase that.
I don't know.
And I'm curious, when did Wilson win-win Vincent D'Onofrio come on board.
And if he was kind of like a Spider-Man in civil war, kinda late ad.
And so, okay.
So we got to revise the script.
If that, if that's what we're feeling here is some of those, okay.
What are the script revisions we have to do?
Cause we're going to get to use this character and we didn't play it originally
Trey: playing on it.
I know I'm going to be speaking out of my element here, so I apologize and
take it with some grain of salt, but I do feel like I remember there being.
A weird window in which people knew.
Okay, Disney's going to get the rights back from the Netflix shows at this point.
So prior to this point, you can't even have plans for those characters
because you don't have the rights to it.
So it, I I'm with you, like w at what point did it, they've had
that confirmation and they could do these things and what that.
Wade into the show making.
And at the only reason I can also go out on this limb with you, I 100% think
that's why we got the ambiguous end for kingpin as kind of like a oh, okay.
Just in case things didn't work out.
You know, we didn't daughter I's and cross our T's.
We have an out with that.
Yeah.
Jude: So that was kind of weird and that's all
Trey: speculative on our part
Jude: a hundred percent speculative, but it just, I remember watching,
cause I've seen this now three times and in the second watch,
there was a couple of things.
I was like, that feels like a reshoot that feels like, like just
the way it was pieced together.
Does that make sense?
Cause like you could have done this same thing.
Dropped kingpin altogether.
Never have them show up, but always.
Kind of hinting at some looming presence in the background still
had Eleanor as your mastermind and still found a way to wrap all this up
without having kingpin ever show up.
And so that's why I say I'm wondering to what extent was that like some
reshoots and rewrites to work kingpin back in not saying that that's what
they did, but that's what it felt like.
Trey: Well, moving along after Clint and cozzies confrontation, uh, we
eventually get to the point where Clint launches himself out the window.
Uh, but the wire that he is hanging on to breaks and he finds himself in the tree.
Uh, what did you think about Kate having to rescue Clint out of the tree?
There
Jude: there's part of me that wishes.
Not that it didn't happen because I liked the moment, but there was part of me
that was like, what is Clint going to do?
How is he going to get out of this tree?
Like, as he was, I'm just wondering what his plan was.
Cause like he's Hawkeye Clara Barton.
I feel like he would have had a way out, you know, He was in a good spot.
He was taking a moment arrest.
Uh, he wasn't ready to go down yet and help.
Trey: He was straight up chilling in that tree.
Jude: I know in case like, screw this, get down here.
Trey: He's, you know, he's an older guy.
He wants to take a quick breather.
Nobody can see you found a new Al friend.
Jude: Uh, I liked, I did like the sequence because it gave her that whole sequence
followed that up with the whole sliding on the needs of the ice and, and causing
the steam or smoke, you know, whatever.
Like that was a cool moment for Kate and she needed that moment.
That was a leveling up moment.
Um, you know, so I, and I, her use of, uh, the arrows to get the tree down.
You have your typical, like, you know, on my signal, like they had earlier and
she's like, do you want to say that?
Never K guess not
Trey: for me.
I'm not going to do anything stupid.
Jude: Well, it wasn't stupid.
He got her down or she got him down, you know?
Yeah,
Trey: I love it because I I'm definitely on Cate side here, but
I could see Clint's frustration.
It made me think, has that tree ever been destroyed in any series?
That
Jude: might
Trey: be a first, I think it's a first Kate has made her
place in cinematic television
Jude: history.
Yeah.
You know, there's going to be some goofy kid or adult cause we can be
pretty goofy that just like, Hey, I wonder if that actually works
and they're going to go try it.
Um, I get a notification on my phone breaking news
Trey: trays.
I didn't mean to step over your joke.
I honestly didn't know you were going to see the same thing.
Jude: Say somebody talked over the tree.
Okay.
Trey.
Oh man.
So no, and I, and I liked it.
They set it up because there was, there was a moment where they use the acid
arrows to take down the stoplights.
Um, and it didn't really, it didn't feel like it did anything.
I, and I get like the point, but the over the, the larger point
was a using of the acid arrows.
So like, when you saw this moment, you knew what was happening and
what she was using, you know?
Uh, so yeah, so I'd like that.
It was anytime they do something like that, where it pays off later.
And they've like showed it to you once before to like teach you like and get
you ready for another, another moment.
I like, I usually just
Trey: eat that.
Yeah.
It's growth.
It's 100% growth.
Well, I think we got one more thing to tackle before we move
into the next most important topic.
And one of the final things we got here in this section is after you described
Kate's awesome hero moment, where she has created all the smoke and distraction,
Nashi slides into Clint, and when they have their back to back arrow shots,
uh, we see a wide variety of trick arrows, which feels like a culmination
of everything we were building too.
As far as the fun side of being the hero has, has been concerned.
Uh, what did you think of some of those trick arrows that were on display?
Jude: Well first before I talk about the trick areas that were on display two of
my, and it's so weird, we're going to time travel real quick because we got to put
up as, as of the recording bingo card, not friend, Dino family data, bingo card.
Um, at the time of the recording, two of my options are actually come from this
scene for title out for title things.
Uh, well, I don't even know if this is going to make the poll at this point,
but of the list of things this, that way, is it time, like just that excitement
of getting to use the trick arrows, uh, and then, you know, Hawkeye Kate,
you know, let's, let's give them hell.
Um, you know, I love that.
I, you know, which arrow that I loved the most for some reason.
And I think it was just because of how visual it was.
Uh, it was the very first one, the magnitude.
Trey: Yeah.
I mean, it was, again, we've already seen it on display twice
where Clint gets rid of the gun.
When he confronts Kasi, Kate gets rid of the gun when they have
the trio fight on the apartment.
This is the continuation on that.
But raising the stakes by getting rid of all the guns from the tracksuit mafia and
I, that was so cool the way they did that.
Jude: Yeah.
And I, and I think it was just because of the, also the visual where like, it
magnetised all those flagpoles and just the blue, just the way they visually
showed that being magnetised so you can, so you knew what was going on.
Um, I just, I loved that.
So that was that I would say there's others that I liked,
but that one was my favorite.
What, which one was your.
Trey: I really enjoyed the air bag, which it's funny that it's the
one that I like the most, because it's kind of comical in a way.
I think sometimes we would call out the shows for distracting, but
the idea, like just the idea or walking through the logic of when
would he ever need an airbag arrow.
And I guess it was that if you want to just take out multiple enemies at one
it's, it's the perfect combination of ridiculousness and usefulness, which
feels like the trick arrows in a nutshell.
Jude: Okay.
I find I've never been shot with an arrow.
I feel like, I feel like I don't need to experience that,
to know that it would hurt.
Um, I just, I feel comfortable making that statement.
The one that.
Trey: I didn't mean to laugh over your point, but I don't think
anybody has ever calmly stated he had been shot with an arrow.
I wasn't
Jude: expecting that.
Um, what, and I said, I've watched this episode three times now.
The one that I, every time I just cringe was the one where the guy got
the frozen leg, you know, talking about.
Yes.
Okay.
As much as it hurts when I bank my shit on something, taking an arrow to the shin,
for some reason just makes me cringe.
It's like imagining an error, like, like that.
Didn't, I'm imagining that wasn't a suction cup arrow.
Nope.
So like, like that alone, Without the frozen part, I'm
going down, like I'm done.
Trey: You would be the, uh, the henchman in Ironman at three it's
like, man, these people are so weird.
I just started working.
Jude: We're already working here.
The pays, not even that good I'm out.
Um, you
Trey: know, but yeah, it's just, you know, I used to be a Hitman, but
then I took an arrow to the knee,
Jude: but yeah, it's just that just visually seeing visually seeing that
being shot in the knee, in the, in the shin, God, that must have hurt.
And I don't know why that would have all, none of them and felt,
probably feel good, but that one, for some reason, You know, and it's it.
You know, what I love about this show is how easy the suspension
of disbelief happens, right?
Like, like we, we talk about, we, we joke about the Spider-Man game
of like, I'm a friendly neighborhood Spider-Man and I'm going to
basically kill somebody, you know?
And when you're fighting in the game, it's like, no one survives that punch
or kick from Spiderman, man, getting shot with an arrow or even a trick era.
Even the airbag arrow is high up as they're getting thrown and backed down on
the ground, they're taking some serious damage, but you don't think about it.
It's just so much fun to watch the tricky arrows.
Um, and, and again, I it's, it's suspension of disbelief and I.
they just find a good way to, to, to be like, what are they
going to surprise us with next?
You know?
And that, and that's one of the things I love the most about that, that sequence.
Yeah.
Trey: And, you know, and I mentioned it in what was an episode three or four,
where so often Clint's the butt of the joke of not being the strong Avenger,
but because of the down to earth aspect of shooting an arrow, he ends up being
the most brutal of the Disney plus show.
So far just the way those shots are depicted.
So I think having this trick arrow barrage is the only way to have such
a big scene like this, because it's got to have that, like what I was
talking about with the airbag, it's the combination of silly and useful.
So yeah, I get what you mean about it.
Like it's, it's a suspension of disbelief.
Jude: Couldn't find a way to work in the boomerang.
Trey: I really, I would've put money down.
I thought we were going to see the boomerang arrow.
I thought Clinton was just trying to push Kate away and he would like,
that would be like the, oh, okay.
Yeah.
He were hiding one this whole time kind of moment.
Jude: Did they try to set up?
And it felt like they were going to set that up.
They didn't happen.
Not this time.
There's always cross my fingers season two.
Trey: Yeah.
Because I mean, they definitely are gonna need more time to go and speak to
Scott Lang about what to do after they have minimized those tracksuit mafia.
Jude: And how terrifying was that?
Yeah.
Trey: You know, what was the odd, earliest creepy part about that in the captions?
Whenever they are being picked up, it says small children screaming,
Jude: oh, trust me, I watch it with the captions on.
So if you did just subtitles, which you know, is that a hot a van
about the size of a hot wheels with small children and it's screen.
Was taken away by an owl.
Oh my gosh.
What a way to go.
Trey: Yeah.
Anyway, you want to move into the next, most important topic, man.
Look, we're going out on a high.
Jude: They did way up high
up there, man, their lungs are small.
Trey: Uh, there'll be fine.
It's it's it's pin magic.
Oh, like I said, I think we can go ahead and move to the next most important topic.
Uh, this one is called.
Splitting the arrow.
So this is going to take us from the moment that Clint pulls off with the
wonderful shot of shooting two arrows, splitting them apart and taking out
almost three people, but because he catches it and it denotes a split of
three storylines in the show, which I thought was beautifully well done.
So we have Kate Fisk and Eleanor.
We have Maya and Kasi and we have Clint and Yulaina man.
So where would you like
Jude: to start?
God?
This is tough.
I'm truly meaning mean there's some,
Trey: there's some heavy hitters in here, so yeah,
Jude: I'm going to start with is Clinton Yulaina and I'm going to start
by throwing the ball back to you.
Well, you have your, your preschooler thoughts.
You said in your freestyle, their thoughts and like what we publish
on Twitter that you felt like they fumbled Clint's storyline.
And the, the part that I, that my head immediately went to was, you know, we,
we brought this up with Ellie, from OSHA podcast, you know, and, and I asked
it kind of ridiculous, but question, cause I knew the answer, but I just,
I wanted to hear it because that, cause as I was thinking through just
the whole, if we frame Jack for it, is that going to be satisfying or both?
No, like that's not going to be a satisfying redemption
to get away from Ronan.
And were you happy with the Elaina's changed your heart with the whistle?
Because I saw somebody on Twitter.
Uh, and I, I don't know if I kept the tweet.
Uh, sometimes if I know I'm in a, you know, uh, bring it.
On pod.
I try to keep the tweet so he can refer to it.
But, but the, but the complaint was, this is like Batman versus Superman, Martha,
you know, like with all this anger and rage that Julaine has had, do we really
believe she's going to stop at a whistle?
And just, was it just got me thinking of like, oh, you probably didn't see
this as a satisfying redemption here or reason for him to stop or Delaney going
against the whole wheelchair actions kind of not just fancy nice words.
Uh, so that's what I'm curious about.
Like, like I like the, the whole sequence, but I, and I didn't have that feeling
of them fumbling, uh, Barton story.
So that's, I'm curious on, on you, was it the whistle was, was that just, you
know, what, what part of it didn't work.
Trey: So this actually, I was 100% okay.
With, uh, I really enjoyed this.
And as you were, you were setting it up as this is the MCUs Martha.
There is a part of me that when I saw the whistle sequence, the first
thing I thought of was in one division for people who've been following us
since then, I said it was a magic trick in episode eight, that they were
able to pull off that revelation of Wanda having this love for sitcoms.
And that was the backdrop for her grief, taking physical
manifestation within the show.
And I called it a magic trick because it shouldn't have worked.
You retrofitted an idea to a character, but they sold me on it.
And I believed it.
I'm feeling a similar thing here, especially with the way Clint is.
Like your sister, she talked about you a lot, you know, the way she flew
that plane, I don't think it's as elegant as they did in Wanda vision.
Like the retrofitting of this character's history.
But the thing that separates it for me from being it, being the Martha
silliness is it's not just that moment.
I think Clint is actually using Yelaina his logic about, it's not the nice words.
It's what you do that defines you by showing Yulaina.
It was Natasha's choice.
This is the choice she made.
And despite Julaine his rage being, you know, she wants to hear, like I
did this, I killed Natasha whatsoever.
Clint pointing to them, both knowing the kind of person that Natasha
is, the actions that she took, the sacrifices that she would have made.
And despite Yulaina not wanting to believe it and continuing to fight because
I mean, you mentioned it last week.
If this show was called it.
There's no reason for Maya to believe Clint when he was talking
about, you know, were weapons and you illustrated that perfectly.
We got that here because Yulaina straight up, calls him a liar and
they build up to it wonderfully what, the way the music swells.
And then they cut to some of these other storylines, but we keep coming
back and you see how, because Clint has framed it as these are the
actions that we know Natasha to take.
Yulaina starts to.
Come down a bit.
And the moment that is just heartbreaking and beautiful and Florence Pew's part
is, you know, anger is the mask that sorrow wears and you hear her sorrow
breakthrough when she says you got so much time with her and we finally get to the
core of why Yulaina so angry and yeah.
That's why she wants to believe Clint did what he did.
And when she's finally able to admit, I'm just upset because I don't get
this time with my sister anymore, man.
Uh, that scene was so good.
Yeah.
Jude: That, that line was really heartbreaking.
Trey: Yeah.
Just and the, yeah, the whimper.
Jude: Ah.
Yeah.
And, and that was, thank you.
That was fantastic.
Um, just cause it just, I couldn't place like, like there and I was like, cause
for me, that scene was so wonderful just, and who knows, maybe I'm misremembering.
I like, okay.
I didn't fight
Trey: back.
Yeah.
You see a shift, it becomes defensive and it's winter
captain America, winter soldier.
I'm not going to fight you.
And he drops the
Jude: right and he didn't, you know, he, he was like, nice to finally meet you.
Uh, I mean, we've seen him, he can hold his own if he needed to.
And he didn't, you know, he was just like, I'm not, you know, I'm not gonna
fight you, you know, was, was, was the, was the feeling and him just being
honest and just saying, Hey, you know, this is the person I knew her to be in
or well, in the moment of honesty of just saying like, you know, tell me,
you know, what happened and he's like, that's not going to matter, you know?
And he's right.
It's not like it's not going to matter.
That's not.
Going to be helpful, um, for, for you Elena.
Um, and it's so funny cause that's, we always humans.
We're so weird.
We always feel like knowledge.
I mean, we do, we feel like that knowledge will make these things.
If I just know if I know something, then not knowing is
the worst kind of kind of stuff.
And, and I know I'm talking out of my element because there's probably people
that, that have had horrific things happen to them and, and knowing does give some
kind of closure, you know what I mean?
Um, and the knowing helps, but, but just that idea that like we want to
know, and we have such a desire to know, uh, things and don't want to
be left in the dark, so to speak.
When, when a lot of times it doesn't change anything, you know, like
that knowledge doesn't necessarily make the feelings go away.
You still have to wrestle with them.
You know, so yeah.
It's it was, it was wonderfully written.
It was wonderfully done.
Yeah.
Trey: I mean, it's, it's, it's what we talked about in Shung G where the
thing you think you're looking for in Shung cheese case of thinking, I
have to kill my father, like to get to that moment, to know you're capable
of doing it and realizing that's not actually what you're looking for.
That's the Elena's story here.
It wouldn't have brought her the closer she thought she needed.
And you know, I, there is a part of me that does feel like this came a little
quick, as far as the resolution goes, but I'm overall happy with it because I
think I'm, at least I'm glad they didn't end it like, oh, hugs and make amends.
Everything's better between them.
She understands, but it's not like they're on good terms.
She just walked.
And, you know, I, I know we talked about it about potentially both of us are
going to be putting our writer's hat on.
This is what I was looking for from the Maya Clint interaction from last week.
Um, you know, I, I talked about it in the preschooler thought and how I
thought they fumbled Clint's story.
Um, and you know, upon sitting down to take notes, I realized, okay, my issue
is mainly with the previous episode, not necessarily this one in particular,
because clearly I've been glowing so far throughout this entire review, but we get
that moment where Clint just straight up says, I'm sorry to Yulaina and he doesn't
even have direct fault in what he's apologizing for, but he's showing empathy.
The fact that Yulaina doesn't even have to forgive them, but there's just
still this understanding between them.
I wish that's what they would've done in the Maya Clint scene, because as
much work as they've done of getting Clint to this vulnerable place, getting
this place where he's understandable.
I don't personally feel, we saw him make amends for Ronan.
There's no possible way that I think he could completely do away with what
he's done as the character Ronan, but at least starting with saying Maya, I'm
sorry that I caused this pain on you.
This is why I did it.
We just didn't get that.
And that's my problem with the show.
They had zero scenes in this episode to put it in perspective for me.
Jude: No, no, no.
That makes sense.
Like you're right.
They had zero scenes and like you could argue, he didn't get the opportunity to
say, sorry, because Maya wasn't having it.
And as he was talking, she kicked the sword to the side and attacked him.
Like you could make that argument.
Um, the problem I have with that argument really is when you get into, uh, and
well, let me rephrase that before I had the problem I have with that
argument is it also would make sense.
That Barton intended to apologize and was going to in my, uh, overcome still
with the anger and you know what I mean?
And you're liar kind of stuff like, like that would make
sense for her character as well.
However, outside of the world, and you think getting into the
writer's room, that's an act of choice, you know what I mean?
And call it a fumble.
Yeah.
And so that was one of those things where it's like, you could have, you know, yeah.
You could have had that apology.
I, I agree with you on that.
Trey: Well, cool.
I was really worried.
I was going to go into this episode being the bad guy, but I'm glad I
made my case, at least for the host
Jude: here.
Yeah, no, no, no, no.
You're like, like that, that is a completely fair.
Trey: And I think that was my friend.
Cause I even talked about it with you.
Uh, it was so close.
It was so close to being my favorite Disney plus show.
And I, that, that aspect of it is the only thing that kept it
from being the number one spot.
Jude: Even with you explaining that to me and me agreeing with you, it still
doesn't knock it down a peg for me.
Cool.
I'm just gonna be honest.
Like you didn't ruin it for me, but I do.
I do.
I do agree with you that like yeah, they could have had that moment in there,
but then you start running into, okay.
Let's I'm going to be careful because we can go over this again in the wrap
up upset, I guess, but like, can, this was the previous, um, episode, but then
you do get into the moment of like, no, I think it would work for a character.
He apologizes then she'd kicks the sword away.
You know, in other words, you're balancing a scene of also how do
you want Maya being portrayed?
Because we know that she's not the bad person, you know,
like we agree with Hawkeye.
You know, and being pointed.
And so it's, it's like, how do you want to portray that person is as
well, but now I'm I'm with you.
I'm on
Trey: board.
Well, let's, let's put a pin on that and we can pick it
back up in the wrap-up episode.
All right, cool.
We'll do that.
Yeah.
You know, we've got two more options here.
We can go with the Maya Kasi scene or we can go with the
Kate Eleanor and Fisk seed.
Um, if I can choose, I think we could go to the Kate Eleanor and
Fisk scene, and that will let us wrap up nicely with Maya and Kasi.
Um, you know, last week you put it in a way that I didn't initially feel,
but I started to understand your point.
That Fisk felt like a distraction.
It should've been this huge emotional moment for Kate to
realize that her mom is this person that she didn't expect after all.
And yet we were all talking about Fisk.
I know for me personally, the fact that they pitted Kate against Fisk,
reclaimed some of that momentum and made it more about her, that
I could see what was missing.
And the previous episode did that come across for you?
Or were you still feeling like it was a distraction overall?
Jude: Was there was fiscal distraction.
Trey: Yeah, or did having Kate defend her Mont against Fisk, kind of bring
that back into more of her stories focus.
Jude: Okay.
I think having Kate defend her mom against Fisk brought it, brought it
back more into it's Kate story focused.
However, I still think they misused Fisk and that a previous episode.
And even in this episode, I agree the
Trey: Hawaiian shirt continue.
Okay.
Jude: I'm kidding.
Look, when you're as powerful as Fisk, you wear whatever you want.
Dude,
Trey: I was in a matter of him ripping that door open and remembering how
vicious of a person he was and then him bending down and wearing that dumb hat.
Okay.
Jude: Continue.
He was out on the town.
It's cold out there.
He has a bald head.
What'd you want to have one of the beat?
Trey: And his clothes got progressively worse from the
start of the emphasis to the
Jude: what'd.
You what'd, you want like a red beanie with two little horns sticking out of it?
God,
Trey: no, I don't know what I want.
It's good.
Accepted sucks.
That's me.
And the Disney plus
Jude: can I start Lord?
So, yeah.
Okay.
So I just think they misused Fisk and it, and this is why I feel like they
either wrote them in late because you got to use them or they just got an
hammered with this idea of using Fisk and like, just forgot that, oh, Hey, this
is going to overwhelm or I don't know.
So, oh, well here's where, it's why it's one B versus one a, is you in Loki?
They were able to introduce Kane, right.
And have him as at large looming presence and find a way to kill.
In such a way that we know King's coming back and the killing of Cain
was a part of the loci Sylvie story.
And I think they could have ended this with wrapping up all of their
stories with his involvement, but, but didn't need to go that far.
So for example, like if I, if I was going to rewrite this, I would say the Fisk,
my, uh, Causey scene takes place more towards, and I would make that tape.
I don't know exactly where in the episode, more towards the end, I would think.
But like, I don't think I would have put them in a position
where Maya had to kill Kasi.
I think Kasi, you know, cause there was this moment of like, this is my life.
It shouldn't have been your life.
Okay.
And so I get that right?
Like, oh, you care for her that shouldn't have been your life.
It's turned into there.
But like, at that point it was like, I felt like you could have had a
turn of like, like, cause there was that we all, Kate synced it.
Other people synced it, this tension between the two of them, like, why
did he go so hard at Maya for Fisk?
It just didn't make sense for me.
And it would've made more sense if Fisk killed Kasi when like either Fisk goes
after Maya some way and like, cause he gets in the way or Kasi refuses Fisk for
Maya and Fisk kills Kasi and then leaves.
So we get that rap kind of moment with Fisk and it, and it kind of fuels and
drives Maya more like, like, like.
I think for the purposes of this show, shifting my, uh, from Ronan to
Fisk is sufficient enough resolution.
And you could have done it in a way that you killed off Kasi,
but Maya didn't have to do it.
Does that make
Trey: sense?
Yeah.
I see what you mean.
And I
Jude: feel like the resolution of Kate and mom could have been
done without a fight with Fisk.
Like I just like, like Fisk is powerful enough that he didn't
need to murder the show for her.
The chauffeur probably worked for him anyways, you know?
So like she gets in the car and you have the classic trope of like Sydney here.
Wait, where are we going?
You know?
And like Mr.
Fisk wants to see you and then use one more trick arrow from
Kate and Kate saves her wrong.
From an eventual eventual meeting with Fisk, but then, but then you have your
typical you're, you're not typical.
You have your end that we had, I'm going to do the right thing
and mom gets arrested, you know?
Um, and then that makes things far more complicated because Kate's like down the
line cause Kate's doing the right thing.
But the ramifications of her mom being arrested and not showing up to the fist
meeting, like, like she did a good thing and there's foreseeable consequences,
but there's also, there's unforeseeable consequences that we see and know,
because this is out there, you know, like, like then you have a much more
intimidating Fisk and we don't just have, you know, otherwise what we have
is like, well, okay, just went from Fisher-Price mafia to Stan taking, you
know, standing one-on-one with Fisk.
Like it's.
It was too much too quick.
Trey: Well, first off you don't know how happy you made me
bringing back Fisher-Price mafia.
That's really good.
Um, and second, you know, I, I set this up as, as talking about Kate and Eleanor
and Fisk, but I'm going to pivot and start with my Maya Kasi notes as the
first thing I want to respond to the.
Thing that I have.
And it's because this is something I picked up on.
I think it was last episode.
You know, you, you talked about not understanding or not
seeing why they needed to be a confrontation with each other.
There's been a subtle storyline of the jealousy that Kasi has for Maya being the
one to take charge of the tracksuit mafia.
Um, we talked about it last episode about like that being a potential reason why
he was questioning her leadership in episode three, where he's like, yeah,
you are running the tracksuit mafia, but your father never would have done this.
He openly states it in their confrontation.
It was never supposed to be you.
This is my world.
And I think he really was expecting to be the one to take charge.
He was the second in command and I can see again, we never confirmation
for it, but I can see the plan of, okay, let's get rid of the father.
I take charge.
But that's not how it played out.
And so there's this element of jealousy and, and, and the actor frothy
himself, he talked about, he is there in that karate class with young Maya.
So I think even though they probably, like, I would have liked a little bit
more, you know, we always talk about the handholding or, or trusting us.
I think I would have liked a little bit more handholding of demonstrating.
He was there because it then becomes a lot more poetic that here we are seeing
them fight again, where we first saw them as children in the karate class.
And it eventually puts them here against each other because of the way
life has taken has taken its winding
Jude: turns.
That is definitely some hand-holding that I would have appreciated
there because I don't think I realized he was in the karate class.
Trey: The only reason I know is because he talked about it in an interview, uh,
which I can link to in the show notes.
Well,
Jude: and again, the.
Now it makes me that did that, like, recontextualize the tension in that line?
My Kate Bishop she's like, did you see a sense of tension between them?
Like, was, was that in like Amaechi when she watched it, she was like, are they
a couple, are they, uh, are they a thing like, like what what's going on here?
And that's how I read that line.
Like, there's some interest there, but that could also be attention in the
sense of the who's in charge tension.
And I just did not read it that way all the way back to that, to that episode.
And so, like, they couldn't like, so sound like they could have been
laying the groundwork that I just read it completely differently.
Trey: Well, I think there's elements of both.
I think that's what makes their dynamic complicated because I
think my, uh, feels for him.
In that relationship way.
And I think he does too, but he still has those goals that are
conflicting with what he wants to do, because he has this moment.
She's like, I can't walk between both worlds.
I can never leave this.
I can't just run with you.
This is who I am.
This is what I want.
And so part of me wonders, because again, we see the stab, we see him on the ground.
I don't know, are they leaving it up as a potential?
Like, this is the only way he could walk away from this moment without Fisk
questioning them where you see sometimes in like mafia shows where like, oh,
you know, you have to take the bullet.
So it looks like you put up a fight kind of thing.
That was another potential way.
I was reading this with Kasi because it's not a hundred percent, he's dead.
Maybe like 98%.
He's dead.
But that's what I read because of that feeling of like, I
couldn't escape this world.
If I wanted to
Jude: see, I took it as he's dead.
Yeah.
You know?
Um, they could always, no.
I, if they did this, I'd be upset.
Um, actually like they could always do like, oh, they faked it.
So this would think he's dead, but I don't think that I would
be, I would not be okay with it.
I
Trey: would be okay if it's the take some damage.
So it looks like you put up a fight, but I don't want it to be like,
this is his, the way he got out.
Yeah.
That's
Jude: where I fall on that.
Yeah.
I'm not going to fall on that arrow.
Um,
uh, so yeah, like, yeah, I I'm, I get, I get all that.
I just didn't read it that way.
And maybe because I didn't read in those that way.
That's why I had such a big problem with it.
And why I felt like Kasi was such a, a turn here on this, on this episode
from what we've seen previous.
Yeah.
They
Trey: could have done more for sure.
Jude: Yeah.
Um, but that, but again, that's how.
Like you could have done better utilize Wilson, Fisk.
You know, he didn't need to get that involved, simply having that
menacing presence in the back.
Uh, and what I mean by that involved.
Like you could have, there's a number of different ways you could have done
this, you know, um, whether it's just basic henchman, pinch people, whatever,
you know, the, the, the people that work for him that goes and does his
dirty work, whether you just had him and there's some dialogue bring me
Eleanor and Kate stops it, you know, there's a, there's a ways of doing it.
But I think at the end he just got too involved.
He didn't need to be that way.
So, I mean, you took an arrow, I'm a see the big man.
I'm assuming he's wearing some kind of like flak jacket or whatever, you
know, a hundred percent, I'm curious to see how he gets out of the gunshot.
Cause you know that they didn't kill him.
Uh that's the, that's the other problem with my scene with that, that scene
at the end for me is like, it doesn't feel like a resolution for Maya because
I'm not convinced that he's dead.
And if he actually is dead, that.
That is a complete fumble and misstep of how to use kingpin.
I
Trey: would be shocked if he's dead.
Jude: I would be too.
But, but that's the other thing is not for the good reasons.
Right.
But like, I would be shocked to.
And, but like, if he's not, you don't really give him Maya's character, any
resolution or in, in this story, you know, because otherwise, like you have,
oh, a shifted focus to the, really the person who's responsible for killing dad.
Right.
But the vengeance is still there, but at least it's shifted to the right
person, you know, quote unquote right.
Person if we had the apology scene, but this scene gives it
as if, oh, She got her revenge.
She got to kill this guy, but we know no one believes he's actually dead.
So what does that mean for that character within the series?
So that, that's why it's just that, that seems so problematic in that way.
That's her
Trey: character growth was with Clint, not Fisk, right?
That's where, that's where it was supposed to be.
Um, I won't, we can, again, I'll save that for the wrap up.
I'm not going to go too far down that rabbit hole, but I'm with you.
I, I know this is going to sound contradictory cause I just talked about
the potential of like, oh, maybe this was a way for Kasi to be able to be around
Fisk, without him questioning, having, taking that damage with the arrow.
But on the Fisk side of things, I never want to see the camera
pull away gunshot fake out again because it's just not satisfying.
Like the two options we have is it's clear, he's coming back in for
whatever series he'll be back or two.
We're just delaying something until the next show starts and it's.
That's cliffhanger for cliffhanger sake.
I think there's no momentum in it.
And so I just, I don't like it.
I'm done with it.
I don't want to see that use anymore.
So for all the, uh, the story writers and the show makers out there, here's
my one stance as if it has weight.
But, uh, I do want to speak some positives because it, it does feel like we've been
overly not overly critical, but we've been pretty critical here at the end.
Um, you know, regardless of the use of.
Fisk.
I do like what it speaks about Kate, because she was holding her
own against him in that toy shop.
Um, you know, you talked about going from the Fisher-Price
mafia to the kingpin himself.
They demonstrated so well in the way she goes flying across the room every time he,
even at first where he's not even hitting her, he's just deflecting her off him.
And she goes flying to demonstrate the disparity in their strength.
And yet she keeps getting back up.
And that is that's the superhero moment of another one of her superhero moments.
Jude: And I don't mean like, oh, she was able to, because like that's big
guy and this is little Kate like that.
I don't care.
I'm probably really fine with, you can go stand up to them.
It was just the evolution we see in that what you did with the
tracksuit mafia, you got to face.
You Elena and Yulaina, wasn't trying to kill you.
You're an obstacle in my way.
And then you get to have this.
And so you're, you're seeing Kate level up and all of a sudden, this is supposed
to be this minute, you know, Wilson visibles to be this menacing person.
It's like, it's like, wait a minute.
You just kept a couple of levels to get here.
Does that make sense?
It does
Trey: make sense.
The saving grace, I think I genuinely don't believe Fisk
was trying to kill Kate.
I think he was reading her as like, you are no threat to me.
I'm not even giving you the respect you deserve to try and put you down.
He squatting her like a fly and his mistake is that he's not fully on guard.
So when he steps to her and she pulls off, Rob was right.
Checkoffs coin flip.
She pulls off her hero moment there.
So she takes advantage of him.
Not respecting her as a threat.
Yeah.
Jude: No.
And that makes sense.
Trey: That's fair.
And that's just my read of the scene.
Jude: And he has that alive.
You're starting to annoy me
Trey: like, yeah.
And again, I didn't take it as like you were, were questioning because I
mean, it's the superhero shows, right?
Like questioning like, oh, that's not realistic.
Like she's here fending off him.
I see what you mean about feeling too quick, as far as the leveling up goes.
But for me, the reason it worked is because I think it was just
the lack of care that he was giving to her as a threat.
Jude: Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Shall we spend our Christmas with the Bartons?
No.
Trey: Okay.
We got one more thing to talk about.
We do before we can go to the holiday
Jude: party.
Yeah.
I like parties.
Trey: The, anyway, we got one more thing to cover.
At least I do.
And a.
That is the resolution with Eleanor and Kate man.
The thing that makes Eleanor such a compelling character is that you almost
start to become sympathetic for it.
At least I did because we learned how the reason she got involved was because
after her husband is gone, she fell into the debts that he owed to the kingpin.
And even though he's clicked quick to point out that like, Hey, you
know, Pretty good for yourself too.
Even after you've repaid those debts, you can almost see the way
she was trying to live this dual life of being tied to this mafia while
giving her daughter a good life.
However, my skin crawled and the way that she was talking down to Kate in
that, you know, you can't just keep living these lives without consequences.
As she's literally trying to argue her way out of being held accountable for what
she's done with the police sirens growing.
And then she turns from being sympathetic to being the villain.
And SES says to Kate, is this what heroes do?
Arrest their mothers on Christmas?
God is so good, but God, I hated
Jude: it shows.
Manipulative she is.
Yeah.
I love it.
Um, it was, so it was good.
It was so good.
But for me again, God, it's so weird.
Cause I truly genuinely mean that this is one B to Loki's
one a as far as the finales go.
Um, my favorite show was one division and I'm going to put this right up
there with it, maybe ahead of it.
It sounds weird, but I felt like they landed the finale far better
than the one division finale.
Um, but I go back to that fist being a distraction for that.
You know, because you have your right.
It was just all of that, that conversation, but it's kind of like,
this is after the big fight with Fisk, it's kind of, it just felt so much
like an afterthought to, to, we got to have this action sequence in here.
And so, yeah, that, and even the cool thing with the trick
arrows while that's your typical Marvel, like we got to have that.
I didn't feel like that for me, the way the Fisk Kate Bishop fight felt like that.
So, so yeah, but no, you're right.
Like, it was so good, but it felt downplayed for me on, but
by the overall show I got ya.
But yeah, like she could have waited to boxing day, December 26th.
Well, you know what,
Trey: before we get to December 26, let's get tear December 25th.
And as you so eloquently stated, let's spend Christmas with the Bartons, which is
our next most important topic and is going to take us through the scenes where Clint
has finally telled to his promise, made it home in time for Christmas and has brought
a couple of strays with him as well.
Uh, starting with me this time.
I think the thing that I walked away from in this final scene is realizing
how much emotion they have been able to get out of Clint's farm in three
appearances, age of Ultron in game, and now Hawkeye like that location,
Jude: infinity.
No, it wasn't game.
Okay.
Nevermind.
Trey: Yeah.
That location has quickly become such a standout in the MCU, which this could
be a topic for another day, but of like so few locations, I think there's
not a lot of homesteads in the MCU.
Jude: Well, in, in the fact, at least from end game to this one that they got the
same place helped, you know what I mean?
Oh yeah.
Trey: 100.
So, yeah, I thought that was worth noting.
Jude: Oh yeah.
Yeah.
Cause it, it immediately, you're just like, oh, that's
where that's the side door.
He was snuck in and in game to grab the baseball glove.
And
Trey: there's the barn where Nick fury was hiding
Jude: it.
It was
Trey: great.
So there's really two quick things that we can talk about.
And I'm going to start with this one because outside of, you know, patting
ourselves on the back, we were right.
Laura was a former agent and that explains a lot of her involvement and know-how
and working partnership with Clint.
But this is a huge moment in the MCU because it is one of the
first times that we have seen.
A overwrite of a character, if that's a fair way to put it in the
revelation that the watch is designated 19 agent 19, which is Mockingbird,
which is who Laura is in the MCU.
Despite the fact that agents of shield has treaded this ground already.
How did that make you feel?
If anything, at all, to see that Laura is age at 19, I liked
Jude: it.
I'm happy with it.
I mean, I knew it was going to be some kind of an agent.
Um, I liked a little banter back and forth.
Take care of your stuff.
Look, who's talking, you know, and I like, that's the one she said
right back, but it was just, yeah.
Take care of your stuff.
Um, you know, um, but in a, you know, married way, it was just fantastic.
Um, you know what, I'm, I'm glad it's, I'm glad to station 19.
Um, and that's the way we're going to go.
I enjoyed that character and agents of.
I thought it was fantastic.
You do run into, you know, you step out of, in world stuff and you
start questioning and here's again.
My grudge against Morbius Morbius is that right?
Yes.
Every time I say Morbius I think Morpheus Morbius um, I think
Moebius, yeah, I don't do that.
It's a movie it's just Morpheus.
Um, well, cause he, he should have died to the first original matrix and anyways,
that's all there is she stay on target as much as I liked that part of agents
of shield and that character specifically in agents of shield, I know that when
they're picking characters and stuff, they want a variety of skillsets and
like visually on screen, you know, to show off Ironman and, and cap and what
they're animating and visual effects.
And now these two characters are similar.
So we want to have, um, you know, when you're thinking about those
dynamics and those types of things and doing it this way just works better.
Then to have another agent.
I mean, we're following agent Carter.
Now the power broker, you have Clint Barton Hawkeye passing on the
mantle of Hawkeye to Kate Bishop.
We have black widow.
Um, you're going to have Monica Rimbaud and it's just like, do you want another
prominent human agent running around?
You know, the answer is probably no, you know what I mean?
Um, in terms of thinking, in terms of the variety of skillsets that,
that you're going to have on screen.
So mockingbirds not really a character, that's probably going to be used.
And so I think this is a really cool nod to Hawkeye and that comic line
where they were married and all of that.
So, yeah, it was great.
Trey: It affirms where I've always landed when it comes to the agents
of shield, because not again, not to discredit a lot of fan base for that show.
A lot of love.
At one point it was designated to be in Canon with the shows, but as time
has gone on and the inner workings of studio politics, it has not been
the case as much towards the end, but it affirms what I felt, where
it is cannon until otherwise stated.
And I appreciate the overstatement.
It makes here because I like the history that it leads like, you
know, so often I talk about a lived in world that lived in world.
It creates between Clint and Laura AK Mockingbird is in
leaves room for the imagination.
And I like that.
Jude: Yeah, and now it does make me wonder, are we going
to get to see some flashbacks?
Is she going to get to actually have some action?
Cause you know, Linda Carboline is fantastic.
Um, but I it's a good way to do it.
Trey: Yeah.
Well the final thing I think we got, we have Christmas with the Bartons
is the final scene where they are burning the Ronan suit and they
are joking back and forth about what Kate's new name should be.
Lady Hawk, Hawk shot.
And so on,
Jude: by the way,
Hochschild
Trey: was pretty good.
I like that one a lot.
Uh, it does have a hockey field to it, but of all the names
listed hock shot was pretty
Jude: easy to say it has a hockey feel to it.
I did.
Okay.
Trey: And I probably, I'm not making a joke off a Hawk and hope
Jude: the sport hockey, H a w K Y O R I R.
Cool.
That's what I said.
It's my head cleaner.
Trey: Oh, really?
You know, I just want to say I, I spotlighted in the beginning
of this episode, how I felt like Clint saying we're partners was
less him truly believing it and trusting her to grow into it.
This scene feels like another affirmation of that for me, because despite knowing
and trusting that she is capable, Kate still gets to be that thorn in
his side with the way that he just antagonizes her or he, she antagonizes
him with the silly, goofy names that is trivial to the superheroes side.
But Kate gets to enjoy that part too.
And I love it.
Jude: Yeah.
Okay.
Now she's for forever.
She will be Kate Bishop in Elena's voice.
Oh, Bishop that's that's her, that's her super hero of injury name,
Kate Bishop, but in Elena's voice.
Trey: So good.
Also worth noting.
One of the important parts of the scene is the road in suits being burned.
And that's not the thing we've reached to, to talk
Jude: about.
Oh yeah, that happened.
Didn't it.
Trey: But I digress.
I'll leave it for the wrap-up episode.
Jude: No, leave it for the wrap up.
Trey: I think that's going to wrap up the important topics for this episode,
which leaves us stray thoughts.
So do, did you have any stray thoughts for this episode?
Jude: I had a couple and I'm going to, I'm going to make them quick.
Um, I love that there was foam LARPing swords in the wallet grills house, uh,
making the trick arrows was a good scene.
You know, we talked about that.
I got her double-check if I'm remembering.
I think the song that was playing sounded very similar, if not the same to the
song playing during home alone, when he was Kevin was setting up all his traps.
I want to go double check that.
Cause I think it was, um, last one when Kate, when Elena shoved
Kate against the glass wall and started sliding her down with her
face Mudge you hear the streaking?
That was hilarious.
And of course, Jack, you know, enjoying his moment, it was great.
Trey: The fact I completely misread them this entire season, but the fact
that he is Kate grown up and just wants his own superhero moment for
all the ways I feel he's a doofus.
I love that.
At least that was a swerve.
I was not expecting.
Oh man.
So firing through some of my straight thoughts pretty quickly, you know,
again, I've already lamented how much I did not like Fisk's attire when this
episode, but whenever the Hawaiian shirt is first debuted, there's a
part of me that feels like he wasn't entirely expecting Maya to show up.
So my own personal Canon is that Fisk and Kasi were having their own
whole I and themed Christmas party.
And that's why he's dressed up because they totally have like decorations
in the background for something.
So they had prior plans to Maya, uh, disrupting them, uh, another stray
thought, love how Jack made fun of on the seventh for peeing at the Hamptons.
That's the Jack that I want to see more of.
Like, I understand we needed the Mr X, but man, I would have liked
some more of that angle of him just being a petty, want to be super.
Oh, uh, this one's trivial at the very beginning of the episode where Clint and
Kate are discussing what they're going to do after the fallout of Eleanor's
relevation revelation, uh, the coffee mugs they have, or totally coffee mugs that
I've used for props in my own side gig as a, uh, product photography with coffee.
And I thought that was cool.
And finally had to play off what you were saying about the face against the glass.
You know, Kate has checked off a lot of inaugural MCU.
First, the first one being, being able to fall from an.
Hi place and not take any damage.
And the second one being, being, uh, shoved across a glass mirror,
comedically, which seems to be something that happens to Thor a lot.
So she's, uh, she's checking off that MCU list pretty quickly.
Yes,
Jude: very much so.
Yeah.
Trey: I think that will wrap up our stray thoughts, which will leave
us with our listeners first takes.
And again, this is, it's always bittersweet when we get to the end
of a series, because I know we're not gonna be able to do this for a while,
but once again, thank you all so much for chiming in with your first taste.
Cause these are genuinely fun to read.
And that being said, uh, this one starts with just Mr.
Melt from Twitter and it reads great bow for the gift that is the season.
Everything felt neatly wrapped and even included a few little extras
that really made it one of the best things to receive this year.
One great extra was Hawaiian shirt Fisk.
So I may disagree with.
Jude: I'm with you.
You're Fisk.
You wear what
Trey: you want.
He's one step away from being the, oh yeah.
I'm busting through the freaking wall.
Jude: Like a Kool-Aid man though.
He is I'm kingpin.
I set the trends.
Trey: Speaking of the trend, it's your turn?
Jude: So bitter like, oh my gosh.
If this, if this would have happened in January, this is the new truck
it's going happen in January.
This is the new truck.
And I'd be like sending you Hawaiian churches gifts from kin on Twitter.
Great episode.
It is my favorite end to a Disney plus MTU show by far very
satisfying and season appropriate.
I'm also really glad that Marvel sort of granted my request from
episode one in the mid credit scene.
Yeah, I'm really happy about that.
That they added the mid credit scene at the end to completely agree with
you on the favorite end to Disney plus, et cetera, right there with Loki.
I will.
I agree with him though, in that I thought they were going to
use, I'll be home for Christmas.
Um, you know, you can count on me as the song pulling in and they didn't
little disappointed in that his prediction there didn't come through.
Trey: You know what?
I changed their mind.
They completely dropped the ball.
This is the worst Disney
man.
Uh, moving along, uh, this one comes in from Ben dot Maddie on Insta, and it reads
an amazing finale to an amazing show.
And, uh, you know, again, I, I talked about on my pre-school or thoughts about
being a little disappointed, but overall, it's hard to deny that this is one of the
better finales of the Disney plus shows,
Jude: uh, from friend Daniel and Instagram love the emotional
beats and ready for season two.
They do announce it already.
I'm surprised they haven't right.
I will be okay if they don't announce a season two, if they announce the movie,
but one of them has to be announced soon.
Yeah.
Trey: If I don't get my show up, I'll be happy if I get my movie, but either way
I have my demands, Kevin FYGI all right.
That sounds like my turn overall good.
But I have a few issues with the watch and that mid credit
scene from caption life on Insta.
Uh, it is very fitting that we have made it all the way to the end of the
listeners first takes and we have not on our part, discussed the mid credit scene
of the full Rogers, the musical thing.
So I think we might be there with you on how we felt about that as a mid credit
Jude: scene.
Real quick.
I'm happy with the mid credit scene because everybody I talked
to was like, oh, I want to see it.
I want to see this.
And they gave it to us.
And so I can't complain about it.
Uh, it doesn't feel like we got an in credit scene or in the traditional sense.
And so, and this is the second, second series in a row with Loki, uh, again,
live action, uh, where we didn't get an end credit scene that really is
going to propel anything forward.
Um, because I'm sorry to just to stamp a season two that's.
That was part of the, yeah, no, um, here's how they could have fixed it in
one of three ways they could have had Paul Rudd and Evangeline Lilly in the crowd.
And Paul just like shaking his head and saying like, that was a tough day and
vigilant Lily looking at him like you weren't even there with him on the stage.
Like they, that should have been.
You know, cause, uh, you know, I, man watch this finished production.
Um, they could have done that quick shot for them, uh, or
they could have had Tatiana Ms.
Lonnie and mark ruffle in the crowd and do some kind of comment
because she Oaks coming out sear.
And finally, this is the one I think they really should have gone with, but this
is where Helaina and Kate get their girls night and you have them in the crowd.
And then Yulaina says the line there's such posers right there
at the end and everybody clapping.
So like any of those three makes that in mid credit, a hundred percent better.
That's my feet
Trey: about how everybody on social media was saying, give, give me the full thing.
I want the full thing.
And so you can't complain about it.
You know how kids sometimes want dessert before.
You still don't give the dessert, even though that's what
they ask until after dinner.
And this was us getting the dessert before thinner dinner.
Uh, I wasn't, I have, I have not rewatched it since my original, uh, viewing and it's
just like, it's neither here nor there.
I just, I wish it would have been something more your fixes I think
definitely would have had me warm up to it a little bit more, but like, I don't know.
I wasn't a fan of it.
Jude: Yeah, no, I get it.
It's it's okay.
Like I
Trey: had to be the villain
Jude: at some point I'm with you.
Cause I like, I've seen it three times, but two of them, I didn't go
rewatch the musical number, you know?
So I, I agree with you on that.
Like I, you know, um, I just don't, I'm just not as down on
it, as I think is every, is as I'm seeing, um, there's people with
me that, yeah, I'm glad we got it.
I loved it.
But yeah, I'm not rewatching it.
Trey: Yeah.
I won't hold it against the show, like, but it's, I'm a little
disappointed, but we're spoiled.
How, how many hours of MCU content have we gotten this entire year?
Jude: A ton.
Trey: Oh man.
Well, again, thank you all so much for chatting in with your first takes.
It has been an absolute blast to get to read these on the show.
Um, I know it's gonna be a while before we get to do this, but if you're
listening and you want to get in on this at some point, you can always follow
us at MCU need to know on Twitter and Instagram, which is a great way to keep
a lookout for our call to actions when it comes to chime again with these.
Yeah.
Jude: Do us a favor.
If you like, what you hear, please share with a friend.
Join our discord.
Make sure you click on the role of sign and the IMO genes to have
access to all this polar channels.
Trey: And of course, if you could be so kind, uh, leave us a rating and
review, you know, normally we say to do it on whatever podcast platform
of your choice is, but I want to highlight that Spotify has finally
allowed people to start rating the show.
So if you're listening on Spotify, if you can go ahead and give us a star
rating, we would greatly appreciate it, uh, cause that could help booster
our results, uh, in the search history.
And of course we'd like to thank Nick Sandy for these of our theme song, which
is his rendition of the Avengers theme.
You can find more of his work on the SoundCloud, which is
linked in the show notes as well.
That's going to do it.
Thank you so much for listening and Jude.
Thank you so much for doing this.
Thank you tray.
We'll see you all next year.
Boom.
That's enough.
So starting with you, Jude, is there anywhere you'd
like to start in particular?
Jude: Um, let's see.
Party preparations.
I love that.
I love the CRA the title.
First off we did for the section, just because the whole Christmas theme.
Right.
Of cause like, okay.
Can you edit all that out?
Yeah, sure.
I was just like, I had like six thoughts all happen at once
and just, I couldn't do it.
Trey: My favorite.
Like there's no better demonstration of how all six thoughts happen at once,
where there wasn't a breath between that last stumble and edit this out.
You became to Cholla delete that footage.
Jude: Yes, that's exactly.
Exactly what happened.
Oh,
Trey: All right.
So I guess if you want to just start over from the, uh, where do you want to start?
Jude: Yeah, I'm going to start over from there.