WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.049 --> 00:00:02.120 Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World. 00:00:02.150 --> 00:00:03.830 I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson. 00:00:03.943 --> 00:00:07.033 New York Times bestselling author of the Horse Boy. 00:00:07.038 --> 00:00:11.027 Founder of New Trails Learning Systems and long ride home.com. 00:00:11.027 --> 00:00:16.644 You can find details of all our programs and shows on Rupert isaacson.com. 00:00:16.694 --> 00:00:18.614 Here on Equine Assisted World. 00:00:18.614 --> 00:00:23.744 We look at the cutting edge and the best practices currently being developed and, 00:00:23.794 --> 00:00:27.604 established in the equine assisted field. 00:00:27.634 --> 00:00:32.884 This can be psychological, this can be neuropsych, this can be 00:00:33.034 --> 00:00:38.284 physical, this can be all of the conditions that human beings have. 00:00:38.794 --> 00:00:43.204 These lovely equines, these beautiful horses that we work with, help us with. 00:00:43.301 --> 00:00:47.201 Thank you for being part of the adventure and we hope you enjoy today's show 00:00:47.270 --> 00:00:49.900 Welcome back to Equine Assisted World. 00:00:50.620 --> 00:00:55.290 We are, as always, talking to people who are at the cutting edge of this 00:00:55.660 --> 00:01:02.570 extraordinary field that has grown so much in the last 5 10 years from something 00:01:02.570 --> 00:01:06.650 on the hippie fringes to something that's now coming into the mainstream. 00:01:07.560 --> 00:01:10.570 And we have Alex Northover. 00:01:10.590 --> 00:01:11.770 Alex Northover. 00:01:12.210 --> 00:01:19.890 Works out of Cheshire in the UK and treads the line between equine assisted 00:01:19.890 --> 00:01:24.490 stuff, mounted stuff non mounted stuff, working in schools, working with the 00:01:24.490 --> 00:01:26.210 nervous system, working with the brain. 00:01:26.840 --> 00:01:30.970 Bringing a PhD to the table with this has been doing this for many years, 00:01:31.140 --> 00:01:38.955 like many of us have and is only just beginning to pop up and be recognized 00:01:38.985 --> 00:01:42.085 because she's been a bit busy like many people have until this point. 00:01:42.445 --> 00:01:46.835 So if you want to, if you're interested, if you're someone listening to this and 00:01:46.835 --> 00:01:52.525 you're interested in how to really look at the holistic picture the human brain, 00:01:52.545 --> 00:01:58.845 the human nervous system, autism, physical disabilities, ADHD, trauma, working 00:01:58.845 --> 00:02:03.290 off the horse, working on the horse, working with nature, working with nature. 00:02:03.590 --> 00:02:08.530 the highest level of classical riding working without the horse at all working 00:02:08.530 --> 00:02:14.320 with the goat working with the chicken and getting school refusers Through 00:02:14.320 --> 00:02:21.350 their exams In a trailer in a farm And sending them off to university, 00:02:21.690 --> 00:02:26.020 you have arrived at the right place, you have arrived at Alex Northover. 00:02:26.590 --> 00:02:31.520 And Making Momentum, which is her project in in Cheshire in England, 00:02:31.730 --> 00:02:35.480 and we also will need to talk a little bit about her wife Lenny. 00:02:36.420 --> 00:02:40.790 Who also is a genius with nervous system stuff away from the horse 00:02:40.790 --> 00:02:45.980 and why that sort of combo makes for such a perfect service. 00:02:46.160 --> 00:02:52.360 If you are coming in as a service user, as a client with any of these kinds of needs. 00:02:52.920 --> 00:02:55.960 So Alex, welcome to Equine Assisted World. 00:02:56.090 --> 00:02:57.380 Tell us who you are and what you do. 00:02:58.100 --> 00:02:59.290 Alex Northover: Hi, thank you for having me. 00:02:59.460 --> 00:03:00.870 So, yeah, I'm Alex Northover. 00:03:01.220 --> 00:03:03.920 I'm one of the directors at Making Momentum CIC. 00:03:04.605 --> 00:03:08.515 So we're a community interest company, and we provide alternative 00:03:08.555 --> 00:03:13.545 provision term time in the week for a variety of schools and several LEAs. 00:03:14.165 --> 00:03:17.175 We're located in Cheshire just outside of Holmes Chapel. 00:03:17.765 --> 00:03:18.995 We're in a really good accessible area. 00:03:19.350 --> 00:03:19.860 position. 00:03:19.860 --> 00:03:23.340 So we work with Cheshire East, Cheshire West and Chester. 00:03:23.380 --> 00:03:27.890 We've had children from Manchester, Trafford several of the LEAs. 00:03:27.930 --> 00:03:29.070 We're right on the border. 00:03:29.150 --> 00:03:32.340 So, we have a lot of people coming from a lot of different directions to us. 00:03:32.410 --> 00:03:36.370 And we also run family play dates at the weekend, utilize the horse boy method. 00:03:36.920 --> 00:03:37.530 Yeah, that's us. 00:03:38.865 --> 00:03:42.615 Rupert Isaacson: Not everyone listening to this knows the English terminology. 00:03:43.225 --> 00:03:44.389 What's an LEA? 00:03:44.389 --> 00:03:48.425 Take us through all these acronyms you just brought us through. 00:03:48.505 --> 00:03:49.085 Alex Northover: Through at you. 00:03:49.105 --> 00:03:51.915 So, we're a CIC, which is a community interest company. 00:03:51.925 --> 00:03:56.485 So that is a a, a not for profit. 00:03:56.605 --> 00:03:59.125 It runs similar to a limited company. 00:03:59.195 --> 00:04:02.005 But it's somewhere between a limited company and a charity. 00:04:02.465 --> 00:04:04.405 So we don't have full charitable status. 00:04:04.405 --> 00:04:09.225 We don't have Governors, the way a charity does a governance board the kind 00:04:09.225 --> 00:04:13.205 of logistics of managing is a little bit easier because it manages more like a 00:04:13.205 --> 00:04:18.415 limited company, but you are committed to reinvesting your funds into the 00:04:18.415 --> 00:04:20.945 services of the community in some respect. 00:04:22.145 --> 00:04:23.115 So, that's the CIC. 00:04:23.685 --> 00:04:26.735 LEA is the local educational authority. 00:04:26.805 --> 00:04:31.585 So, in the UK local boroughs are responsible for managing the education 00:04:31.615 --> 00:04:35.365 of the young people that live in their locale, and they run the 00:04:35.365 --> 00:04:39.065 state maintained schools, and ensure adequate provision for everybody. 00:04:39.365 --> 00:04:45.935 And part of that is finding, sourcing and funding alternative provision for children 00:04:45.935 --> 00:04:50.085 who, for whatever reason, are struggling to manage the setting that is their name 00:04:50.085 --> 00:04:54.525 setting, their name school, or don't have an appropriate setting currently. 00:04:55.015 --> 00:04:57.465 So we provide educational services for those young people. 00:04:58.295 --> 00:05:01.270 Rupert Isaacson: So you really, An educational establishment. 00:05:01.520 --> 00:05:04.260 Most people, when they think about equine assisted stuff, they're not thinking 00:05:04.270 --> 00:05:05.560 about getting kids through exams. 00:05:05.580 --> 00:05:10.970 They're not thinking about someone who is finding it difficult to go to 00:05:10.970 --> 00:05:16.850 school, wants to go on to university needs help with this academically, as 00:05:16.850 --> 00:05:19.170 well as, you know, just feeling better. 00:05:21.800 --> 00:05:25.770 It's not going to occur to many people who want to get into the equine assisted 00:05:25.770 --> 00:05:28.030 field, that it's even a possibility. 00:05:28.700 --> 00:05:34.300 To become an educational resource to this degree. 00:05:34.310 --> 00:05:35.570 How did you get into this? 00:05:35.570 --> 00:05:37.690 How did, how did this, how did this work? 00:05:38.505 --> 00:05:40.015 Alex Northover: Well, that was my background originally. 00:05:40.015 --> 00:05:41.525 So I am a qualified teacher. 00:05:41.585 --> 00:05:45.435 So it's Lenny, my wife we both have QTS qualified teacher status. 00:05:45.595 --> 00:05:50.045 So I spent the first part of my working life as a science teacher 00:05:50.575 --> 00:05:52.355 initially in mainstream education. 00:05:52.375 --> 00:05:56.525 And then in the sector that is for young people who have not 00:05:56.535 --> 00:05:58.315 managed mainstream education. 00:05:58.335 --> 00:06:00.395 So it's what we call pupil referral units. 00:06:00.395 --> 00:06:02.355 So there's young people who have. 00:06:02.875 --> 00:06:06.325 been excluded or removed from their original settings 00:06:06.325 --> 00:06:07.625 for a variety of reasons. 00:06:08.135 --> 00:06:11.555 So I came from an educational background and so did Lenny. 00:06:11.555 --> 00:06:14.435 She was an art teacher and the head of a very successful school 00:06:14.435 --> 00:06:15.605 in Trafford for a long time. 00:06:16.425 --> 00:06:20.895 So I think for me, it, it was a very natural marriage for 00:06:21.335 --> 00:06:25.325 what I was doing previously and adding in the movement method. 00:06:25.325 --> 00:06:28.595 And the approach is that I learned from you into. 00:06:29.075 --> 00:06:33.745 Into that provision came very naturally and before I was running making momentum I 00:06:33.745 --> 00:06:37.435 was using movement method in the classroom in the pupil referral unit, but the young 00:06:37.435 --> 00:06:39.015 people I was working with there as well 00:06:40.285 --> 00:06:43.785 Rupert Isaacson: Okay, you have this background in education You know how to 00:06:43.785 --> 00:06:49.775 mix Nervous system stuff and brain stuff ie therapeutic stuff with academics. 00:06:49.785 --> 00:06:52.315 That's something you're trained in. 00:06:52.315 --> 00:06:54.905 It's something you're good at How does the horse come into this? 00:06:54.915 --> 00:06:56.975 How do you how do you how do you help people with that? 00:06:57.035 --> 00:07:01.115 Alex Northover: It depends really, because being child led, it 00:07:01.115 --> 00:07:04.595 depends really on the needs of the person that you're working with. 00:07:04.605 --> 00:07:07.915 So, obviously, you have the horses, as I know, because I listen to these podcasts, 00:07:07.915 --> 00:07:10.435 we've already had these discussions before about regulating the nervous 00:07:10.435 --> 00:07:13.645 system and how the horse helps to do that. 00:07:13.655 --> 00:07:21.975 So, we use the horses within the day, both as a regulatory tool, so everybody rides. 00:07:22.325 --> 00:07:25.055 if they want to at some point during the day, they always 00:07:25.055 --> 00:07:26.495 spend some time with the horses. 00:07:26.495 --> 00:07:28.955 That might be sensory work, it might be grooming, it might be 00:07:28.955 --> 00:07:33.545 groundwork, but we also use the horses from an academic perspective. 00:07:33.545 --> 00:07:37.985 So anything that we are learning, we can learn from horseback or 00:07:38.005 --> 00:07:39.075 to do with the horse as well. 00:07:39.105 --> 00:07:43.705 So the like nutrition, we apply to the horses physics, we apply to the horses, 00:07:44.185 --> 00:07:45.835 mathematics, we apply to the horses. 00:07:45.855 --> 00:07:50.180 So they're learning in the saddle as well as Getting the regulatory 00:07:50.180 --> 00:07:51.580 boost of being around the horses. 00:07:51.580 --> 00:07:53.750 There's the academic learning happening at the same time. 00:07:54.770 --> 00:07:59.200 And we also follow the movement method principles. 00:07:59.210 --> 00:08:02.900 So whatever any child is interested in, we include those things. 00:08:02.910 --> 00:08:07.110 So we have a music therapist who comes in and delivers a couple of hours a week. 00:08:07.150 --> 00:08:08.140 We work with her. 00:08:08.720 --> 00:08:12.300 One of our young people is really interested in French at the moment. 00:08:12.310 --> 00:08:13.650 So we're working around. 00:08:14.250 --> 00:08:18.100 Learning some more modern foreign languages and yeah, we just do everything 00:08:18.180 --> 00:08:22.220 based around their interests and their passions and their personal drives. 00:08:22.910 --> 00:08:26.460 Rupert Isaacson: Can you give us a couple of examples of if you're trying to teach a 00:08:26.460 --> 00:08:30.110 math concept or if you're trying to teach a French concept or a physics concept 00:08:30.170 --> 00:08:31.590 or perhaps all three at the same time? 00:08:32.400 --> 00:08:35.670 How are you going to, how are you doing that with the horse? 00:08:36.330 --> 00:08:37.330 Just give us a scenario. 00:08:38.095 --> 00:08:41.255 Alex Northover: Okay, so that like this things like calculations of 00:08:41.335 --> 00:08:44.915 distance, speed and time that we do during the crazy time activities. 00:08:44.925 --> 00:08:49.655 So, we set up jumping lanes or lunging the horses or moving between the poles. 00:08:50.225 --> 00:08:53.995 We set up stopwatches, we time them, we do the mathematics in that way. 00:08:54.485 --> 00:08:57.455 We can also do things based around treasure hunts. 00:08:57.770 --> 00:09:00.840 So if we're looking for say vocab for French. 00:09:00.840 --> 00:09:04.140 So the young man who's interested in French at the moment is also interested 00:09:04.140 --> 00:09:09.260 in Pokemon, so we've got, a French Pokemon book, and we've been doing 00:09:09.960 --> 00:09:10.350 Rupert Isaacson: Frenchman, 00:09:11.070 --> 00:09:14.310 Alex Northover: Frenchman, we've been , we've been learning Pokemon 00:09:14.310 --> 00:09:19.770 acquiring , we've been acquiring vocab, like, you know, as, as he 00:09:19.770 --> 00:09:21.270 moves through the space doing that. 00:09:21.760 --> 00:09:23.060 So each individual. 00:09:24.105 --> 00:09:28.525 Lesson or activity or concept, we're always trying to think about how 00:09:28.525 --> 00:09:32.725 we could embed movement in it and how we could adapt it so that it's 00:09:32.725 --> 00:09:38.325 as engaging as possible and as kind of, much opportunity for movement 00:09:38.385 --> 00:09:39.715 and regulation as possible as well. 00:09:40.885 --> 00:09:45.545 Rupert Isaacson: So when I visited you back in August we were. 00:09:46.875 --> 00:09:50.185 I called it a trailer because of the American audience, but 00:09:50.185 --> 00:09:51.505 in English we call it a caravan. 00:09:52.615 --> 00:09:53.085 Flora, 00:09:53.195 --> 00:09:54.435 Alex Northover: flora caravan, yes. 00:09:54.875 --> 00:09:56.675 Rupert Isaacson: And for the Americans who are listening, you think trailer, 00:09:56.675 --> 00:09:58.065 you think that's huge, big thing. 00:09:58.115 --> 00:09:59.185 No, no, no. 00:09:59.185 --> 00:10:02.065 An English caravan is much more modest. 00:10:02.065 --> 00:10:04.315 It's, it's, it's, it's cozy. 00:10:04.385 --> 00:10:06.565 It's a, it's, it's a small thing. 00:10:07.105 --> 00:10:10.935 And English caravaning is a, it's a culture. 00:10:11.345 --> 00:10:12.745 And so you have this. 00:10:13.225 --> 00:10:19.775 Lovely little caravan on your property while we were looking 00:10:19.775 --> 00:10:21.055 through your your place. 00:10:21.055 --> 00:10:25.085 You said oh, yes at that table in that caravan We've had a 00:10:25.085 --> 00:10:28.805 couple of school refusers sitting their GSEs at that caravan. 00:10:29.105 --> 00:10:33.805 And for those listeners who don't know what a GCSE is, that's the 00:10:33.865 --> 00:10:38.325 exams that you do that decide whether you're going to go to college or not. 00:10:38.345 --> 00:10:41.495 They don't get you into a college, but they decide whether you are 00:10:41.625 --> 00:10:43.455 college material or not in the UK. 00:10:43.455 --> 00:10:43.855 Yes, 00:10:44.185 --> 00:10:46.945 Alex Northover: it's the, it's the post secondary. 00:10:46.985 --> 00:10:51.265 So, age 16, it's the formal national exams that everybody sits. 00:10:51.695 --> 00:10:52.065 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 00:10:52.075 --> 00:10:53.785 So you've got a school refuser. 00:10:55.440 --> 00:10:58.010 Your job is to get them into college. 00:10:58.140 --> 00:11:00.770 How do you go from? 00:11:01.170 --> 00:11:02.230 I'm not going to school. 00:11:02.230 --> 00:11:04.800 I don't want to learn anything I don't even want to come out of my room 00:11:07.100 --> 00:11:12.760 and maybe I mean, you know indulging in some other self destructive behaviors 00:11:14.000 --> 00:11:20.850 to coming to you working through the horse and being Other movement based 00:11:20.850 --> 00:11:25.510 things and nature basis and then ending up actually able to sit in that 00:11:25.720 --> 00:11:30.580 Caravan and sit an exam that gets them into college Can you talk us through 00:11:30.580 --> 00:11:33.240 like the one two, three four of that 00:11:34.890 --> 00:11:40.720 Alex Northover: so it's about breaking down the barriers so the 00:11:41.785 --> 00:11:43.485 It used to be termed school refusal. 00:11:43.505 --> 00:11:48.055 It's normally referred to now as emotionally based school non attendance. 00:11:48.065 --> 00:11:52.443 So EBSNA or emotionally based school avoidance. 00:11:52.443 --> 00:11:53.530 Yeah. 00:11:53.530 --> 00:12:00.428 So I think I think that while language isn't everything, I think it is 00:12:00.428 --> 00:12:06.558 important to recognize that what presents as a refusal to attend is 00:12:06.578 --> 00:12:09.158 actually Broadly a trauma response. 00:12:09.718 --> 00:12:10.554 Very true, well put. 00:12:10.554 --> 00:12:13.868 So, saying that they are refusing indicates choice. 00:12:14.248 --> 00:12:20.593 Young people are, when it becomes that extreme and that embedded feel that unsafe 00:12:20.873 --> 00:12:26.523 and feel unable to, it's an impossibility for them to manage the school environment 00:12:26.523 --> 00:12:28.403 that is their named educational setting. 00:12:28.923 --> 00:12:33.803 I have yet to meet a young person who doesn't want to be 00:12:33.803 --> 00:12:35.853 successful, doesn't want to do well. 00:12:36.263 --> 00:12:39.493 That can look like different things for different people, but they 00:12:39.493 --> 00:12:41.267 all have ambitions and dreams. 00:12:41.448 --> 00:12:46.008 Desires and, you know, the wish and the will to do something. 00:12:46.008 --> 00:12:48.198 It's just about setting them up in an environment where those 00:12:48.228 --> 00:12:49.448 things are accessible for them. 00:12:50.928 --> 00:12:52.168 So I think the first thing. 00:12:52.593 --> 00:12:57.583 Is that we look nothing like those spaces that have been historically 00:12:57.583 --> 00:13:03.953 traumatic for that young person and we come with the, the expectation is, how 00:13:03.963 --> 00:13:08.143 do we work collaboratively together to make whatever your ambitions and 00:13:08.143 --> 00:13:12.383 your aspirations are achievable for you and what does that look like. 00:13:12.413 --> 00:13:13.693 And the first thing is always. 00:13:13.803 --> 00:13:18.983 Coming down out of that space of anxiety, trauma, autistic burnout. 00:13:19.233 --> 00:13:23.623 So the, the, the primary thing is always the relationship connection and the 00:13:23.623 --> 00:13:27.373 opportunity for regulation and getting back into a space where your cortisol is 00:13:27.373 --> 00:13:33.683 low, your oxytocin is up and you feel calm and able and ready and regulated so that 00:13:33.683 --> 00:13:36.253 you can access education in some form. 00:13:36.743 --> 00:13:41.458 And then from there, it's all hinged onto interests and what the young person what 00:13:41.478 --> 00:13:47.448 their particular ambitions are and how do we sequentially set them up for success. 00:13:47.458 --> 00:13:54.338 So if it's, I'd really like to work in X field, we go and look 00:13:54.338 --> 00:13:57.988 what the equivalent college courses are, what the entry requirements 00:13:58.028 --> 00:13:59.538 are for those college courses. 00:13:59.588 --> 00:14:01.998 And then we talk about how we can get you to the place where 00:14:01.998 --> 00:14:03.478 those things are achievable. 00:14:04.068 --> 00:14:06.588 And because it's collaborative and we're working together 00:14:06.598 --> 00:14:08.138 and it's all focused around. 00:14:08.508 --> 00:14:12.688 things that they feel are meaningful, the barriers fall away and they 00:14:12.688 --> 00:14:18.758 can actually attend and access and access the work and, and do well. 00:14:19.288 --> 00:14:24.918 So we have children coming with zero attendance to sort of You know, 00:14:25.078 --> 00:14:28.768 low 30 percent attendance that are on 100 percent attendance with us. 00:14:29.698 --> 00:14:34.618 And we have a hundred percent success rate with post 16 transitions and sitting 00:14:34.618 --> 00:14:36.918 those external exams in some format. 00:14:36.918 --> 00:14:38.308 Some of them are not GCSEs. 00:14:38.318 --> 00:14:42.448 Some of them are functional skills or other types of qualifications, 00:14:42.448 --> 00:14:46.368 but everybody manages to attain something and move on to somewhere. 00:14:47.108 --> 00:14:48.638 Rupert Isaacson: I mean, this is incredibly impressive. 00:14:49.968 --> 00:14:52.258 Again, can you just talk us through some scenarios? 00:14:52.298 --> 00:14:53.228 How does the. 00:14:55.063 --> 00:14:56.583 the horse help with this? 00:14:56.933 --> 00:15:01.493 Most people wouldn't be able to see a horse bringing you into an exam space. 00:15:03.113 --> 00:15:06.013 Alex Northover: Well, for example, when we've had young people coming to do 00:15:06.273 --> 00:15:10.063 formal qualifications, we might set up the day so they can have some time with 00:15:10.063 --> 00:15:14.173 the horses first, so they can move into that space as regulated as possible. 00:15:14.533 --> 00:15:18.163 We work really closely with the LEA and with schools, and we have great support 00:15:18.163 --> 00:15:19.233 with the schools that we work with. 00:15:19.233 --> 00:15:23.938 We've got and, you know, we make sure that exam entry access arrangements 00:15:23.958 --> 00:15:27.018 are such that if people require breaks, they're able to take them. 00:15:27.018 --> 00:15:31.468 If they require a scribe, they're able to have them you know, whatever 00:15:31.468 --> 00:15:36.628 they need in order to make that experience accessible, they get. 00:15:37.208 --> 00:15:38.918 And because we're in a space that is. 00:15:39.553 --> 00:15:43.643 You know, very rich in those positive sensory triggers and 00:15:43.643 --> 00:15:44.963 free from the negative ones. 00:15:45.363 --> 00:15:49.203 Again, it releases that pressure from the young person. 00:15:49.203 --> 00:15:53.513 They're able to focus on the exam as the difficult thing, not managing the 00:15:53.513 --> 00:15:54.813 environment as the difficult thing. 00:15:56.973 --> 00:15:59.313 Rupert Isaacson: I'm wondering, just in my head as you were talking, 00:15:59.353 --> 00:16:03.863 I'm imagining somebody sitting in exam while they're on a horse. 00:16:06.073 --> 00:16:09.753 Alex Northover: Well, this year, actually, they've just changed the exam access now. 00:16:09.753 --> 00:16:12.703 So for the first time, the next cohort going through will 00:16:12.703 --> 00:16:13.953 be able to listen to music. 00:16:14.323 --> 00:16:17.283 I'm not sure how that's going to be managed yet because I haven't 00:16:17.283 --> 00:16:19.983 looked at the the regulations yet. 00:16:20.003 --> 00:16:24.473 But there is an understanding, I think, that there are things that make are 00:16:24.503 --> 00:16:28.003 helpful and we should be providing people with the opportunity to succeed with those 00:16:28.013 --> 00:16:30.713 things, but helpful, whereas previously you wouldn't have been able to do that. 00:16:31.123 --> 00:16:31.413 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:16:31.693 --> 00:16:34.373 I'm thinking about, I'm sure you're thinking about the exam halls that 00:16:34.373 --> 00:16:39.003 we sat in you know, and it wasn't a caravan in a lovely farmyard with 00:16:39.013 --> 00:16:40.273 the ducks outside the window, you 00:16:42.753 --> 00:16:44.404 know, let alone listening to music. 00:16:44.404 --> 00:16:47.823 And I'm just wondering if the next step is like, okay, you know, here you are 00:16:47.873 --> 00:16:50.908 on the horse, here's a, here's a, you know, we're going to have like a movable 00:16:50.908 --> 00:16:52.588 desk on the saddle in front of you 00:16:52.588 --> 00:16:52.698 Alex Northover: and 00:16:52.978 --> 00:16:56.948 Rupert Isaacson: we'll keep the horse moving for your oxytocin and have at it. 00:16:57.618 --> 00:16:58.808 Alex Northover: It would be nice, wouldn't it? 00:16:58.808 --> 00:16:59.248 It would be nice. 00:17:00.008 --> 00:17:01.698 Rupert Isaacson: You know, the way, but the way you describe it, 00:17:01.698 --> 00:17:06.428 it actually sounds not outside the bounds of possibility. 00:17:06.808 --> 00:17:14.168 And one can often be so pessimistic about where education is going 00:17:14.168 --> 00:17:18.808 or, you know, the kids getting medicated and so on and so on. 00:17:19.428 --> 00:17:20.148 But yet. 00:17:20.828 --> 00:17:25.848 At the same time, there's places like Making Momentum, with you, that are 00:17:25.848 --> 00:17:30.448 the exact opposite of that, which are coming in with movement, nature, 00:17:30.448 --> 00:17:36.303 horses, and so on, and getting those same kids Who perhaps otherwise might 00:17:36.303 --> 00:17:44.613 be put on medications or whatever or marked out as no hopers getting them 00:17:44.623 --> 00:17:51.693 through their actual exams, which is still the measure by which our society 00:17:53.473 --> 00:17:56.693 Judges, you know, whether you're successful or failing, you know failing 00:17:56.743 --> 00:18:05.398 in Education so just listening to you talk through that Makes me much more 00:18:05.398 --> 00:18:06.838 hopeful than I have been of late. 00:18:08.648 --> 00:18:09.248 So good. 00:18:09.328 --> 00:18:11.228 Alex Northover: I'm glad I'm glad I have inspired some hope. 00:18:11.228 --> 00:18:13.808 Rupert Isaacson: Okay, go ahead. 00:18:13.818 --> 00:18:15.028 And I'm going to ask you my next question. 00:18:15.348 --> 00:18:18.588 Alex Northover: I was just gonna say, I think that that, yeah, I think everybody 00:18:18.958 --> 00:18:23.288 there, there are Working in education is a really difficult way to earn money, 00:18:23.288 --> 00:18:26.618 and I don't think there's anybody there who doesn't profoundly believe and want 00:18:26.648 --> 00:18:30.618 to support young people to succeed and believe in their capacity to succeed. 00:18:30.638 --> 00:18:35.558 It's just knowledge sometimes, or I think confidence to try things 00:18:35.558 --> 00:18:38.458 that are a little bit left field or a little bit outside of the box. 00:18:39.118 --> 00:18:42.498 And you know, there's not a lot of, you know, that space for innovation, there's 00:18:42.498 --> 00:18:46.058 not a lot of space because everybody is so pressed for time and so overloaded. 00:18:46.308 --> 00:18:49.588 And, you know, I think if you're doing something that is slightly 00:18:49.698 --> 00:18:51.968 different from everybody else, it can feel quite vulnerable. 00:18:52.308 --> 00:18:56.968 But I think everybody that's there on the ground definitely has the passion 00:18:56.968 --> 00:19:00.188 and the drive to want to do that and support young people, you wouldn't, 00:19:00.548 --> 00:19:04.598 you wouldn't go and work in a school if you didn't have that, because there's 00:19:04.708 --> 00:19:06.968 much easier ways to generate income. 00:19:07.398 --> 00:19:08.868 You've got to be there because you love it. 00:19:09.673 --> 00:19:10.823 Rupert Isaacson: Without a doubt, you're right. 00:19:10.843 --> 00:19:13.823 However, at the same time, you know, one hears a lot of people 00:19:14.063 --> 00:19:17.483 who are working within that system saying, look, I'm burned out. 00:19:17.563 --> 00:19:18.253 I'm ground down. 00:19:18.283 --> 00:19:18.933 I'm, you know, 00:19:19.263 --> 00:19:21.883 Alex Northover: I think it breaks adults the same way it breaks children. 00:19:23.563 --> 00:19:28.043 Rupert Isaacson: So before, before I move on to my next sort of official 00:19:28.053 --> 00:19:32.393 podcast questions, do Do you think do you think things like your, your 00:19:32.393 --> 00:19:39.273 project making momentum, are you going to be an anomaly as the future unfolds? 00:19:39.303 --> 00:19:42.953 Or do you think places like yours will be more and more the norm? 00:19:45.733 --> 00:19:49.523 Alex Northover: I think the ethos and the values that underpin it 00:19:49.583 --> 00:19:51.163 will be more and more the norm. 00:19:51.463 --> 00:19:57.133 I think that spaces like us will exist for the children who have the biggest 00:19:57.163 --> 00:20:01.433 challenges and find school environments, environments the most difficult. 00:20:01.453 --> 00:20:06.273 I don't think typical school will ever look like what we offer, but I think there 00:20:06.273 --> 00:20:09.983 are elements of what we offer that, that will and should be in typical schools. 00:20:12.233 --> 00:20:15.843 Rupert Isaacson: Are you seeing, I'm getting further and further away from my 00:20:15.843 --> 00:20:20.633 question this year, but it's, I can't, I can't go, not go down this rabbit hole. 00:20:21.473 --> 00:20:24.633 Do you think that, have you, are you, are you seeing any evidence of that? 00:20:24.653 --> 00:20:28.533 Are you, are you seeing schools beginning in, at least in your 00:20:28.533 --> 00:20:30.303 area, beginning to implement? 00:20:30.643 --> 00:20:31.933 Stuff that you are Yeah, 00:20:31.933 --> 00:20:35.723 Alex Northover: I see, I see people being invited into run 00:20:35.723 --> 00:20:38.153 meditation workshops to us locally. 00:20:38.153 --> 00:20:41.963 I see people, schools starting to do more and more from like 00:20:41.963 --> 00:20:44.183 a forest school perspective. 00:20:44.663 --> 00:20:48.623 There's a very excellent independent, small, independent school down the road 00:20:48.623 --> 00:20:53.343 from us who has just won an award and then their practice is very like our practice. 00:20:54.023 --> 00:20:54.983 I see. 00:20:55.438 --> 00:20:57.158 There's definitely a shift. 00:20:57.558 --> 00:20:58.908 Rupert Isaacson: What's the name of that school out of interest 00:20:58.908 --> 00:20:59.838 in case people want to know? 00:21:00.278 --> 00:21:01.698 Alex Northover: It's called Beach Hall. 00:21:02.078 --> 00:21:02.428 Rupert Isaacson: Mm 00:21:02.668 --> 00:21:02.938 Alex Northover: hmm. 00:21:02.948 --> 00:21:05.578 And it's a really lovely, lovely school. 00:21:05.928 --> 00:21:06.618 Very nice school. 00:21:07.258 --> 00:21:12.128 And Yeah, they've they've, I would, I'm not sure what the name of the 00:21:12.128 --> 00:21:16.863 award they got was, but it's really, it's a really lovely setting. 00:21:17.393 --> 00:21:21.323 And I think I do see a shift in understanding towards that. 00:21:21.363 --> 00:21:24.233 And so many primary schools are now including like forest 00:21:24.233 --> 00:21:27.223 school type elements and outdoor learning and outdoor classrooms. 00:21:27.693 --> 00:21:29.283 I'm seeing more and more of that. 00:21:29.883 --> 00:21:33.698 I'm also seeing schools being more receptive to you know, I've done 00:21:33.708 --> 00:21:38.948 training, been into schools, offered training, offered through the teachers 00:21:38.948 --> 00:21:43.278 unions to school practitioners from a number of different Schools 00:21:43.288 --> 00:21:44.558 across the sort of Northwest. 00:21:44.558 --> 00:21:48.958 I think there is an awareness that we are currently not meeting need. 00:21:49.588 --> 00:21:53.598 And one of the things I really love working about working with 00:21:53.608 --> 00:21:57.448 these young people is that I think that they are a barometer. 00:21:58.488 --> 00:22:02.718 So, They let you know that they are struggling, but that probably 00:22:02.718 --> 00:22:04.148 means that everybody is struggling. 00:22:04.668 --> 00:22:10.828 So, being clued in to these learners and their experience of the physical 00:22:10.828 --> 00:22:15.878 space of the classroom and the content of the lesson is a really great. 00:22:16.098 --> 00:22:17.828 They're the canaries in the mineshaft. 00:22:18.368 --> 00:22:22.868 It's a really great way to sort of sit back, you know. 00:22:23.318 --> 00:22:25.068 Sit back and think what are you doing? 00:22:25.068 --> 00:22:27.268 Well, what are your areas for improvement? 00:22:27.358 --> 00:22:29.258 What could you change as a classroom practitioner? 00:22:29.818 --> 00:22:34.088 Because if they're struggling everyone's struggling, but some 00:22:34.088 --> 00:22:35.488 children just hide it better than others 00:22:37.998 --> 00:22:41.658 Rupert Isaacson: okay, so you started as 00:22:44.138 --> 00:22:48.648 the same horsey horse obsessed girl that I was 00:22:50.668 --> 00:22:56.998 and Here you are delivering extraordinary things through horses 00:22:56.998 --> 00:22:59.033 You Take us back to the beginning. 00:22:59.153 --> 00:23:00.313 Take us back to your family. 00:23:00.373 --> 00:23:01.583 Take us back to your mum and dad. 00:23:02.013 --> 00:23:07.893 Take us back to how does, how does one go from just being a, you know, standard 00:23:08.173 --> 00:23:17.083 pony obsessed girl, person, boy, and ending up where you've ended up because 00:23:17.083 --> 00:23:19.383 it's unusual and it's extraordinary. 00:23:20.033 --> 00:23:21.713 Talk us through that chronology, please. 00:23:23.358 --> 00:23:28.358 Alex Northover: So, I and my brother started having riding lessons at a local 00:23:28.358 --> 00:23:31.798 riding school mobily riding school, which unfortunately no longer exists. 00:23:32.108 --> 00:23:35.828 But they, it was a very, I think everybody in Cheshire went riding and 00:23:35.878 --> 00:23:39.078 mobily riding school at some point, it was sort of the local center. 00:23:39.728 --> 00:23:45.018 And my mum had always loved horses and wanted to ride as a little 00:23:45.018 --> 00:23:48.498 girl, but hadn't really had the financial means to ever do it. 00:23:49.123 --> 00:23:54.083 with any kind of degree of frequency or you know, to any great extent. 00:23:54.103 --> 00:23:57.193 So I think when we were little, she really wanted us to be able to have 00:23:57.193 --> 00:24:00.093 the opportunities that she hadn't been able to have when she was younger. 00:24:00.673 --> 00:24:04.073 And maybe a little bit for her own benefit too, because she would have a 00:24:04.073 --> 00:24:05.683 lesson while we had a lesson as well. 00:24:05.683 --> 00:24:07.343 So she got to ride as well. 00:24:07.703 --> 00:24:12.853 And then I rode at riding schools in the area and had, you know, really, I 00:24:12.853 --> 00:24:16.093 was really lucky with the quality and the standard of tuition I got from. 00:24:16.748 --> 00:24:21.698 Both at Moberly Riding School and also by a lovely gentleman called Joe Gates, who 00:24:21.768 --> 00:24:23.828 I went and worked as a Saturday Girl for. 00:24:24.238 --> 00:24:27.248 So I worked at the riding school, got the ponies ready, and then 00:24:27.248 --> 00:24:29.783 in return I got a What a ride. 00:24:30.503 --> 00:24:33.533 And that's back in the days where you could do that. 00:24:33.583 --> 00:24:35.393 I don't know that that's so much a thing anymore. 00:24:36.413 --> 00:24:37.533 But and then I 00:24:37.573 --> 00:24:39.763 Rupert Isaacson: wonder how anyone gets their skills anymore. 00:24:39.803 --> 00:24:40.403 Alex Northover: Yeah. 00:24:40.403 --> 00:24:40.803 Yeah. 00:24:40.843 --> 00:24:41.073 Yeah. 00:24:41.073 --> 00:24:41.693 It's just true. 00:24:42.163 --> 00:24:47.983 And then I had my first pony when I was about, I think I was 13 or 14 at 00:24:47.983 --> 00:24:52.493 the Welsh Cobb and then, yeah, they've kind of been a a fixture ever since. 00:24:53.793 --> 00:24:54.923 Rupert Isaacson: And what did you do? 00:24:55.003 --> 00:24:59.033 Just again, quickly for listeners who aren't familiar with the UK 00:24:59.463 --> 00:25:06.163 Cheshire, which is where Alex grew up and is still operating is one of 00:25:06.163 --> 00:25:08.903 the great horsey areas of the UK. 00:25:09.323 --> 00:25:14.063 Partly because it's one of the areas that has large amounts of dairy farming, 00:25:14.063 --> 00:25:19.403 which means that there's fox hunting that goes across big, big hedges. 00:25:19.593 --> 00:25:21.323 So it's known. 00:25:21.653 --> 00:25:25.193 Within the UK as a place where people ride. 00:25:25.203 --> 00:25:29.343 Well, they have to kind of ride well to get across that country So talk to us 00:25:29.343 --> 00:25:35.793 about the the types of riding you got involved with and then how that parlayed 00:25:35.833 --> 00:25:38.653 Into the equine assisted stuff over time. 00:25:39.593 --> 00:25:46.063 Alex Northover: So I had when I had the my first ponies, I did a lot 00:25:46.063 --> 00:25:49.483 of showing and many did mountain and moorland working hunter. 00:25:50.303 --> 00:25:51.743 Rupert Isaacson: What does that mean if you're not from the UK? 00:25:52.313 --> 00:25:52.553 Alex Northover: Yeah. 00:25:52.553 --> 00:25:55.063 So mountain and moorland are our native ponies. 00:25:55.323 --> 00:25:57.253 They're either up a mountain or on the moorland. 00:25:57.263 --> 00:25:58.633 So that's your Welsh cobs. 00:25:58.653 --> 00:26:05.543 Your Dales, your Fells, your Highlands, and they, yes or your, or your native. 00:26:05.743 --> 00:26:07.403 Rupert Isaacson: Or your little evil bastards, basically. 00:26:08.793 --> 00:26:11.373 Alex Northover: No, lovely, lovely horses. 00:26:11.383 --> 00:26:15.233 And Working Hunter is a showing class where you have, I don't know 00:26:15.443 --> 00:26:17.023 if there's an American equivalent. 00:26:17.093 --> 00:26:22.043 You do rustic jumps but they're, you know, It's not cross 00:26:22.043 --> 00:26:23.173 country, they're show jumps. 00:26:23.513 --> 00:26:25.403 So they, they will fall if you knock them. 00:26:25.823 --> 00:26:29.143 You do a round of rustic jumps that's supposed to simulate what 00:26:29.153 --> 00:26:30.723 you might find in the hunting field. 00:26:30.723 --> 00:26:34.953 So you might get water trays, you might get brush fences to simulate a hedge, 00:26:35.163 --> 00:26:38.883 you might have gates that you have to jump ditches, those types of things. 00:26:38.953 --> 00:26:43.703 And then afterwards you do a ridden show to show your ponies 00:26:44.058 --> 00:26:45.388 way of going and schooling. 00:26:45.418 --> 00:26:48.308 And then they strip them down and look at confirmation and 00:26:48.308 --> 00:26:51.038 it's kind of a cumulative class. 00:26:51.198 --> 00:26:54.198 You get your places awarded off all of those elements. 00:26:54.698 --> 00:26:57.178 So yeah, that was that's Mountain Wall and Working Hunter. 00:26:57.178 --> 00:27:02.178 So I did that first and then I rode in our local riding clubs and pony clubs. 00:27:02.198 --> 00:27:05.438 So I was also doing some dressage and show jumping and cross country. 00:27:05.928 --> 00:27:09.498 And then I did some eventing and then affiliated eventing 00:27:09.608 --> 00:27:11.208 as I got older and the horses. 00:27:11.553 --> 00:27:12.183 Got bigger. 00:27:12.343 --> 00:27:13.603 I joined British venting. 00:27:14.913 --> 00:27:15.963 We did everything. 00:27:16.063 --> 00:27:21.903 I also did like endurance riding and La Trek, which is similar 00:27:21.943 --> 00:27:24.348 to working equitation, but over. 00:27:25.418 --> 00:27:30.638 A bigger space so like you do a day of orienteering on horseback, and then you 00:27:30.668 --> 00:27:35.718 do control of the paces so there's a corridor that's marked out you have to 00:27:35.718 --> 00:27:38.888 counter as slow as you can and walk as fast as you can without breaking pace. 00:27:39.548 --> 00:27:42.448 And then you do a series of obstacles that are set out around. 00:27:43.023 --> 00:27:46.683 A couple of fields and they again are supposed to be the things that you might 00:27:46.753 --> 00:27:49.743 meet out if you were on a, a track. 00:27:49.753 --> 00:27:53.233 So there's steps and banks and you have to get horses in and out of 00:27:53.233 --> 00:27:56.933 trailers and they have to stand in one area and you leave them and walk 00:27:56.943 --> 00:28:01.143 away and it's supposed to show that your horse is an obedient, capable. 00:28:01.628 --> 00:28:02.998 track leader type of horse. 00:28:03.468 --> 00:28:08.758 We did that and we did anything, anything I could go to, anything I could do. 00:28:08.858 --> 00:28:10.168 I always just wanted to learn. 00:28:10.168 --> 00:28:11.108 I always just wanted to have fun. 00:28:11.148 --> 00:28:12.718 I didn't do anything very well. 00:28:13.388 --> 00:28:15.588 I'm never, I'm not particularly competitive. 00:28:16.128 --> 00:28:18.198 And I also suffer quite badly. 00:28:19.658 --> 00:28:22.498 I'd suffer quite badly from from performance anxiety as well. 00:28:22.498 --> 00:28:24.728 So I, my worst riding, I always did. 00:28:25.958 --> 00:28:29.498 under the eagle eye of judges, but I just wanted to do everything. 00:28:29.498 --> 00:28:31.638 I just wanted to spend as much time with my horses as possible. 00:28:31.638 --> 00:28:35.738 So if there was any, anywhere to go, any demo to watch, anything to try, 00:28:35.748 --> 00:28:37.508 any activity, I would always do it. 00:28:38.058 --> 00:28:42.598 And we hunted and we did you know, just everything, everything I could 00:28:42.598 --> 00:28:45.368 do, pony club rallies, anything that the riding club was offering, 00:28:45.378 --> 00:28:47.538 any visiting trainer, any clinic. 00:28:47.928 --> 00:28:48.968 I did, I did it all. 00:28:49.318 --> 00:28:54.308 But yeah, we did that and then 00:28:54.578 --> 00:28:55.328 Rupert Isaacson: believe that, but yeah, 00:28:55.628 --> 00:28:58.108 Alex Northover: yeah, well, you can, you can look the results up. 00:28:58.108 --> 00:28:58.708 I promise you. 00:28:59.308 --> 00:29:03.048 And then yeah, over time, I guess, the horse that I still have actually 00:29:03.048 --> 00:29:05.828 that I bought in 1996, he's 32. 00:29:06.248 --> 00:29:06.858 Next year. 00:29:06.908 --> 00:29:10.018 So Louie is still going and he was the horse that I did most of that with as a 00:29:10.018 --> 00:29:14.388 teenager and in my 20s and he actually came away with me to university twice. 00:29:14.848 --> 00:29:17.038 So he did my undergraduate degree with me at Nottingham. 00:29:17.448 --> 00:29:21.978 I did an environmental biology degree and he also did a postgraduate diploma at 00:29:21.978 --> 00:29:23.798 Aberystwyth that I did in Equine Science. 00:29:24.558 --> 00:29:25.638 Rupert Isaacson: Is he going for his PhD? 00:29:26.038 --> 00:29:28.138 Alex Northover: He, by hook or by crook, yes, hopefully we'll 00:29:28.138 --> 00:29:29.178 get him to the end of it, yeah. 00:29:29.228 --> 00:29:30.248 So he's very well educated. 00:29:30.248 --> 00:29:33.248 It's a very well educated horse in every sense of the word. 00:29:33.848 --> 00:29:37.578 And yeah, he just, we just did everything, everything with him. 00:29:37.578 --> 00:29:41.068 And had a lot of fun and met a lot of wonderful people. 00:29:41.108 --> 00:29:44.848 And I was very, again, very lucky to have input from some 00:29:44.848 --> 00:29:49.158 really great supportive trainers. 00:29:49.248 --> 00:29:51.728 I feel very blessed to have had a lot of people move through my life 00:29:51.728 --> 00:29:52.758 and share their knowledge with me. 00:29:53.483 --> 00:29:56.693 Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so how does this suddenly become an equine assisted gig? 00:29:56.863 --> 00:30:00.573 This is all very much, you know, riding, good riding, sport riding, 00:30:01.463 --> 00:30:02.603 educational riding, learning. 00:30:03.173 --> 00:30:05.163 Yeah, where does it suddenly go into service? 00:30:05.683 --> 00:30:08.263 Alex Northover: So the two things kind of were running in parallel. 00:30:08.263 --> 00:30:11.093 So, I guess if we kind of take a jump forward to around, it was like 00:30:11.093 --> 00:30:17.063 2016 2016, 2017, I was working. 00:30:17.103 --> 00:30:22.813 I had left mainstream education because I had become frustrated with it. 00:30:22.823 --> 00:30:27.163 I had become frustrated with feeling like we were sort of cramming square pegs in 00:30:27.163 --> 00:30:29.273 round holes and it didn't feel right. 00:30:30.278 --> 00:30:31.638 It didn't feel productive. 00:30:31.638 --> 00:30:32.548 I wasn't enjoying it. 00:30:32.578 --> 00:30:35.828 And exactly what you were saying before about the adults becoming burnt out. 00:30:35.838 --> 00:30:37.148 That's really what happened to me. 00:30:37.768 --> 00:30:42.378 And I left my job and went to go and work at the pupil referral 00:30:42.378 --> 00:30:43.778 unit, which I liked better. 00:30:44.068 --> 00:30:47.348 It was more relationship based and it felt more nurturing and more focused 00:30:47.348 --> 00:30:50.358 on the individual rather than this kind of educational conveyor belt. 00:30:50.478 --> 00:30:52.758 That is, unfortunately. 00:30:53.298 --> 00:30:55.468 what mainstream education is often like. 00:30:56.018 --> 00:31:01.098 And we went to, at the same time I was working with a trainer called 00:31:01.098 --> 00:31:07.688 Charlotte Whitlam who had recently moved into Cheshire from Portugal. 00:31:07.718 --> 00:31:12.758 So Charlotte is Swedish, but had come via the Valences, the great horse trainers 00:31:12.758 --> 00:31:16.868 in Portugal, had been working there for a while and then had moved into the UK. 00:31:17.618 --> 00:31:20.208 And we started having lessons with her. 00:31:20.878 --> 00:31:25.508 And I went to a lecture demo that she was participating in and one 00:31:25.508 --> 00:31:28.908 of the speakers at the lecture demo was talking about horseboy. 00:31:29.418 --> 00:31:33.088 And it was a very odd, I had not, I had never heard of 00:31:33.088 --> 00:31:34.178 horseboy up until this point. 00:31:34.178 --> 00:31:37.988 I hadn't seen the film, I hadn't read the books, I had literally no knowledge. 00:31:38.628 --> 00:31:40.778 But she just shared her experience. 00:31:41.348 --> 00:31:44.918 And it was a very odd, a very odd kind of experience. 00:31:45.778 --> 00:31:47.338 Eureka type moments. 00:31:47.348 --> 00:31:51.758 So the only thing I can equate it to is if you ride, you know, when you hit the 00:31:51.838 --> 00:31:54.528 perfect stride and everything slows down. 00:31:54.913 --> 00:31:58.753 And just focuses and it was like all these sort of mirrors lined up in my 00:31:58.753 --> 00:32:02.305 mind and I had this perfect moment of clarity and this perfect shot of 00:32:02.305 --> 00:32:07.113 everything she was saying ran so true with my, my background with the horses, 00:32:07.113 --> 00:32:10.943 my own experience of being around the horses, my own experience as a human 00:32:10.943 --> 00:32:15.233 being, and what I felt about working with young people and the education 00:32:15.233 --> 00:32:17.433 system, it just made so much sense. 00:32:17.493 --> 00:32:20.133 It was like a little bell going off in my head. 00:32:20.593 --> 00:32:23.913 So I came home and I looked you up and I emailed. 00:32:26.033 --> 00:32:27.093 And I was like, can I come? 00:32:28.263 --> 00:32:28.873 And I did. 00:32:28.983 --> 00:32:34.213 So I came to Texas for the summer and did my horseboy training with you guys. 00:32:34.263 --> 00:32:37.513 And I didn't, again, showing my ignorance. 00:32:37.533 --> 00:32:41.283 I didn't know until I got there and you started showing me the patterns. 00:32:41.293 --> 00:32:43.093 I was like, Oh, I've, I've done these before. 00:32:43.133 --> 00:32:44.333 I didn't know the connection. 00:32:44.833 --> 00:32:47.453 And then because it's what I had been doing with Charlotte. 00:32:47.633 --> 00:32:51.253 So yeah, it was, I think, I don't know how it happened. 00:32:51.283 --> 00:32:52.093 It was kismet. 00:32:52.958 --> 00:32:55.998 But it was like, Oh, this is, this is what I've, this is what all 00:32:55.998 --> 00:32:57.308 this other stuff has happened for. 00:32:57.338 --> 00:33:00.518 This is the preparation that what, this is what I've been waiting for. 00:33:00.518 --> 00:33:01.968 This is what it's been getting me ready for. 00:33:01.968 --> 00:33:04.398 And the universe kind of delivered at the perfect time. 00:33:05.878 --> 00:33:06.888 Rupert Isaacson: What was so interesting? 00:33:06.908 --> 00:33:09.998 I remember when I first met you and you came out to Texas and 00:33:09.998 --> 00:33:11.668 this is quite a few years ago. 00:33:12.298 --> 00:33:17.208 And, you know, I'm saying, okay, this is how we train our horses. 00:33:17.208 --> 00:33:21.108 And we've got to get, you know, collection for the oxytocin for the communication and 00:33:21.498 --> 00:33:23.188 calm down the nervous system and so on. 00:33:24.238 --> 00:33:24.908 And. 00:33:25.238 --> 00:33:31.228 You, I, I demo it and then you take the horse and start doing, I'm 00:33:31.228 --> 00:33:33.188 like, Oh, you've done this before. 00:33:33.558 --> 00:33:37.338 And the level of competence was extraordinary. 00:33:37.338 --> 00:33:40.248 And then he said, Oh, Charlotte Wittbom and then, okay, and now she's 00:33:40.248 --> 00:33:41.818 been with the Valenzas Valenzas. 00:33:41.858 --> 00:33:46.748 Well, they're my trainers, the Valenzas, and it was a very strange moment to have 00:33:46.748 --> 00:33:51.668 this kind of, okay, we're absolutely coming from the same place, but what, 00:33:52.638 --> 00:33:55.768 what prompted you to go to Charlotte? 00:33:55.768 --> 00:33:58.268 And by the way, we, we need to do a big ups for Charlotte here. 00:33:58.268 --> 00:33:58.458 Yeah. 00:33:58.628 --> 00:33:58.728 Yeah. 00:33:58.728 --> 00:33:59.423 She's ace. 00:33:59.713 --> 00:34:07.293 If anyone is listening, if you're in the UK and you want to get proper job trained 00:34:07.303 --> 00:34:10.943 with a horse, go to Charlotte Wittbom. 00:34:10.983 --> 00:34:13.293 And it doesn't matter whether it's dressage, she can take 00:34:13.293 --> 00:34:14.343 you all the way through. 00:34:14.633 --> 00:34:17.233 It doesn't matter if it's just general riding or horsemanship, she 00:34:17.233 --> 00:34:18.373 can take you all the way through. 00:34:18.923 --> 00:34:21.013 And she's just such a nice person. 00:34:21.333 --> 00:34:22.203 Alex Northover: Yeah, she's lovely. 00:34:22.553 --> 00:34:26.343 Rupert Isaacson: But what's so interesting was, why did you, because 00:34:26.353 --> 00:34:28.823 you'd come like me, you'd come through the hunting world, you'd come through 00:34:28.823 --> 00:34:30.803 the jumping world, the eventing world. 00:34:32.313 --> 00:34:36.353 And then suddenly you found yourself in this classical riding world. 00:34:36.353 --> 00:34:37.843 What, what, what, what made you do that? 00:34:39.003 --> 00:34:40.743 Alex Northover: I think it's almost inevitable. 00:34:40.753 --> 00:34:45.603 I think if you, I think if you spend, if, if you spend enough time with horses 00:34:45.623 --> 00:34:51.823 doing anything and you are interested and you're kind of approaching it from a, 00:34:51.913 --> 00:34:57.593 a, a way of wanting to absorb and learn, I think everybody circles back to the 00:34:57.673 --> 00:35:04.388 classical tradition at some point because It is the root of everything and any type 00:35:04.388 --> 00:35:10.868 of work you're doing and, and knowing what I know now, looking back on all of 00:35:10.878 --> 00:35:14.808 the stuff that I had had before and it's something I say to the people that I am 00:35:14.808 --> 00:35:20.128 working with now, like you, maybe other people don't explain it as explicitly, 00:35:20.628 --> 00:35:24.008 but if you have somebody coming to work you know, a horse behaviorist, 00:35:24.008 --> 00:35:25.018 what's the first thing he does? 00:35:25.218 --> 00:35:26.598 Everybody yields the quarters. 00:35:27.188 --> 00:35:30.448 It might look slightly different, but everybody's moving through the patterns. 00:35:30.448 --> 00:35:32.598 Everybody's asking the horse to cross the midline. 00:35:32.598 --> 00:35:36.758 Everybody's building the BDNF because that's what creates the yes brained horse. 00:35:37.668 --> 00:35:40.938 Maybe they don't explain it in the same way. 00:35:41.008 --> 00:35:43.118 Maybe they aren't aware that's what they're doing. 00:35:43.128 --> 00:35:44.398 They just know that it works. 00:35:44.428 --> 00:35:49.438 But if you're a tiny kid learning to load a pony and it won't go on the 00:35:49.448 --> 00:35:52.278 trailer, the first thing somebody tells you to do is circle it. 00:35:53.088 --> 00:35:55.298 move it, get it to move it, move it away from me. 00:35:55.318 --> 00:35:56.898 Rupert Isaacson: Specifically get the inside hind leg 00:35:56.898 --> 00:35:57.908 under the point of gravity. 00:35:57.908 --> 00:35:58.128 Yeah. 00:35:58.238 --> 00:35:58.908 Alex Northover: Exactly. 00:35:58.918 --> 00:36:04.908 So I think if you're, if you're kind of, interested in being better at working 00:36:04.908 --> 00:36:10.038 horses from the ground, understanding them better, producing them, having 00:36:10.038 --> 00:36:13.683 them be sounder, having them be more on your side in a way that is. 00:36:14.883 --> 00:36:17.413 You know, collaborative and low force. 00:36:17.433 --> 00:36:19.223 You, you were always going to end up in that place. 00:36:19.223 --> 00:36:21.323 I think it's kind of unavoidable, unavoidable, really. 00:36:23.573 --> 00:36:23.943 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:36:23.943 --> 00:36:28.883 You, you said three things that, that some people may not be familiar with. 00:36:28.903 --> 00:36:34.193 And I think it'd be helpful if you explained, you said the patterns, you 00:36:34.203 --> 00:36:38.423 said the BDNF, and you said the yes horse. 00:36:39.753 --> 00:36:40.733 What are the patterns? 00:36:41.263 --> 00:36:45.893 What is BDNF and why do patterns and BDNF get you a yes horse? 00:36:45.893 --> 00:36:46.513 Can you explain it? 00:36:47.313 --> 00:36:47.933 Alex Northover: Absolutely. 00:36:48.173 --> 00:36:48.813 It'd be my pleasure. 00:36:48.883 --> 00:36:54.833 So, when the system that we work with was sort of not, not designed, 00:36:54.863 --> 00:36:56.453 but described by the Valences. 00:36:56.873 --> 00:36:59.953 So it's the classical tradition that everybody uses, but this is their 00:36:59.953 --> 00:37:01.443 way of presenting the information. 00:37:06.623 --> 00:37:09.593 They all involve initially working the horse from the 00:37:09.593 --> 00:37:11.653 ground in these set patterns. 00:37:11.903 --> 00:37:15.803 So you And do it in a variety of different ways. 00:37:15.813 --> 00:37:19.583 You can work a horse from a cavesson on a long line, you can work them with the 00:37:19.583 --> 00:37:23.813 reins, but you're always asking them to move the body in these certain set 00:37:24.103 --> 00:37:29.263 patterns, which basically involve either flexion or counterflection and either the 00:37:29.263 --> 00:37:33.273 quarters moving around the shoulder or the shoulder moving around the quarters. 00:37:33.703 --> 00:37:37.253 And every time the horse moves away from you, you're asking them to engage, 00:37:37.253 --> 00:37:42.103 lift their core and step the inside hind under the midline to produce. 00:37:42.288 --> 00:37:46.368 Method of carriage that is the classical idea of how a horse should 00:37:46.368 --> 00:37:48.068 look when you are mounted on it. 00:37:48.068 --> 00:37:51.558 It's, it's about furnishing the horse the best way possible, producing it 00:37:51.558 --> 00:37:55.628 the best way possible so that it can successfully carry your weight with the 00:37:55.628 --> 00:37:59.343 maximum amount of comfort and perform the movement to the best of your ability. 00:37:59.663 --> 00:38:02.143 It's abilities, you know, whatever those movements happen to be, 00:38:02.143 --> 00:38:03.733 any of the dressage movements. 00:38:04.193 --> 00:38:05.163 So those are the patterns. 00:38:05.163 --> 00:38:09.593 It's a flexion or counter flexion, shoulders around quarters or 00:38:09.593 --> 00:38:10.503 quarters around shoulders. 00:38:10.503 --> 00:38:11.073 There's two 00:38:11.073 --> 00:38:11.648 Rupert Isaacson: patterns. 00:38:11.958 --> 00:38:15.048 Alex Northover: Yes, and you move, you move, there's variations on two patterns. 00:38:15.048 --> 00:38:15.858 One for the 00:38:15.858 --> 00:38:16.908 Rupert Isaacson: inside hind leg, one for the outside hind leg. 00:38:16.908 --> 00:38:17.358 The outside 00:38:17.358 --> 00:38:21.658 Alex Northover: hind leg, yeah, and inside hind to outside and, and vice versa. 00:38:21.658 --> 00:38:23.278 So you're, you're moving them round. 00:38:23.778 --> 00:38:27.558 It's exactly the same thing as people, if you're having a dressage lesson 00:38:27.558 --> 00:38:30.928 or a flat work lesson, it's what your trainer tells you from the ground 00:38:30.958 --> 00:38:35.238 to do as a, as a mounted rider, but we instill it first on the horse. 00:38:35.383 --> 00:38:40.433 In the groundwork, so it's one person on the ground teaching the 00:38:40.433 --> 00:38:44.713 horse how to move what the cues mean and how the how to move their body. 00:38:45.263 --> 00:38:47.203 And so there's the patterns. 00:38:47.683 --> 00:38:54.143 And then the result of that is because of how the brain engages. 00:38:55.123 --> 00:38:58.313 through those movement patterns, because the horse is having to 00:38:58.313 --> 00:39:03.043 balance and shift its weight and move its limbs across its midline. 00:39:03.413 --> 00:39:07.073 It triggers a set of physiological responses within the brain. 00:39:07.073 --> 00:39:11.213 So it engages something, a release called something called BDNF, which is 00:39:11.223 --> 00:39:13.183 the brain derived neurotrophic factor. 00:39:13.473 --> 00:39:16.733 Rupert Isaacson: Brain derived neurotrophic factor. 00:39:17.023 --> 00:39:21.318 Alex Northover: So It means that derived as in, its, its nearby. 00:39:21.323 --> 00:39:23.643 Rupert Isaacson: Brian's, Brian's brain driving, 00:39:24.553 --> 00:39:25.483 Alex Northover: driving tractors. 00:39:25.553 --> 00:39:25.843 Yeah, 00:39:25.873 --> 00:39:26.803 Rupert Isaacson: driving tractors. 00:39:27.383 --> 00:39:28.923 The thrown, like both smart like tractors, 00:39:30.698 --> 00:39:32.498 . Alex Northover: It's a growth factor essentially. 00:39:32.498 --> 00:39:36.748 So, it, what you are doing is producing these chemical cues in your 00:39:36.748 --> 00:39:39.198 brain that the, the brain produces. 00:39:39.198 --> 00:39:40.038 So brain derived. 00:39:40.573 --> 00:39:42.233 signals that it is made within the brain. 00:39:42.293 --> 00:39:46.553 Neurotrophic means that it produces the growth of neurons. 00:39:47.233 --> 00:39:50.723 So yes, so plants can be phototrophic. 00:39:50.733 --> 00:39:52.163 So they grow towards light. 00:39:52.213 --> 00:39:53.383 This is neurotrophic. 00:39:53.383 --> 00:39:58.573 It's the growth of brain cells, brain neurons, and then factor 00:39:58.573 --> 00:40:00.053 because that's what it's doing. 00:40:00.063 --> 00:40:01.423 That's the chemical key. 00:40:01.423 --> 00:40:02.243 That's what it causes. 00:40:02.683 --> 00:40:05.163 So you're generating neuroplasticity. 00:40:05.163 --> 00:40:08.213 You're developing, learning, you're creating new pathways. 00:40:09.518 --> 00:40:13.168 And it's really lovely because that doesn't only happen for the horse. 00:40:13.168 --> 00:40:16.608 It also happens for you because as you're moving across the ground 00:40:16.608 --> 00:40:19.348 and moving through the patterns, you also are crossing your midline. 00:40:19.668 --> 00:40:22.548 You're also doing bilateral engagement because your left hand, your right 00:40:22.558 --> 00:40:25.568 hand, your left foot and your right foot are all doing a hokey cokey at 00:40:25.568 --> 00:40:27.198 different places and different times. 00:40:27.558 --> 00:40:29.618 So it does the same thing in your brain. 00:40:30.188 --> 00:40:35.428 And it's a really nice window into working collaboratively with the horse, because 00:40:35.428 --> 00:40:37.058 this is something you're doing together. 00:40:37.348 --> 00:40:39.808 You are mirroring them, they're mirroring you. 00:40:39.808 --> 00:40:41.908 It forms a beautiful relationship. 00:40:42.318 --> 00:40:45.498 And that neuroplasticity that develops mean that this means that 00:40:45.498 --> 00:40:47.268 the horse becomes this yes horse. 00:40:47.748 --> 00:40:52.068 So they, they are in that brain state where there, there's a level 00:40:52.068 --> 00:40:55.098 of arousal that means they're switched on, but they're calm. 00:40:55.648 --> 00:40:57.328 So they're looking for the challenge. 00:40:57.328 --> 00:40:58.768 They, they don't approach things. 00:40:59.323 --> 00:41:05.183 Fearfully and it's so essential for our horses in particular because 00:41:05.223 --> 00:41:08.743 our sessions can look very strange. 00:41:08.743 --> 00:41:11.783 You know, you might have a child that comes one day and decides they want to do 00:41:11.783 --> 00:41:17.843 something that involves, you know, waving flags, or we had a young man who used to 00:41:17.843 --> 00:41:21.783 come, he invented a brilliant game, which involved lobbing space hoppers off the top 00:41:21.783 --> 00:41:28.353 of the horse, cantering off the top of the horse, lobbing space hoppers, like tag. 00:41:28.353 --> 00:41:31.423 It was like dodge ball, but with space hoppers and, you know, the 00:41:31.423 --> 00:41:36.633 horse has to just come with you and be accepting of these really weird 00:41:36.633 --> 00:41:38.823 scenarios that with, that often involve. 00:41:39.923 --> 00:41:40.413 mad things. 00:41:40.483 --> 00:41:43.653 And it's, it, you know, there's obviously desensitization that is 00:41:43.653 --> 00:41:47.723 happening as well, but a lot of it is around just that headspace where the 00:41:47.723 --> 00:41:51.033 horse has this neuroplasticity and wants to work with you and for you. 00:41:51.033 --> 00:41:52.173 That's what the yes horse is. 00:41:53.633 --> 00:41:54.083 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:41:54.273 --> 00:41:54.653 Okay. 00:41:54.963 --> 00:41:58.983 So basically you're talking about growing a horse in your brain. 00:42:00.123 --> 00:42:05.753 And growing a monkey, a human, a new brain, while working with that horse, 00:42:05.923 --> 00:42:09.463 both of them crossing the midline the whole time, getting the speed ANF thing. 00:42:10.543 --> 00:42:17.943 How does that then help the person, the kid, the adult, who might be the client, 00:42:17.953 --> 00:42:22.193 the service user, who's on, on board with that horse or working that horse 00:42:22.193 --> 00:42:24.043 on the ground in a therapeutic way? 00:42:24.043 --> 00:42:27.273 How, how do they get neuroplasticity through that same thing? 00:42:28.028 --> 00:42:31.028 Alex Northover: Well, the same, so the same kind of, because 00:42:31.028 --> 00:42:31.908 we're all mammals, right? 00:42:31.918 --> 00:42:34.798 So we have the same pathways, we have the same basic kind 00:42:34.798 --> 00:42:36.768 of underlying neurobiology. 00:42:37.373 --> 00:42:45.763 So, in the same way as the person on the ground is engaging the vestibular system 00:42:45.763 --> 00:42:50.943 and balancing and you know, receiving all that BDNF and engaging neuroplasticity and 00:42:50.943 --> 00:42:54.503 switching on all of those neurons on those new pathways, the same thing has happened 00:42:54.503 --> 00:42:57.843 to the person that's mounted because they're balancing on the horse that's 00:42:57.843 --> 00:42:59.693 moving dynamically through three phases. 00:43:00.753 --> 00:43:02.463 Sorry through three planes. 00:43:02.803 --> 00:43:04.223 So they're moving forward through space. 00:43:04.413 --> 00:43:05.313 Rupert Isaacson: Three dimensions. 00:43:05.423 --> 00:43:06.663 Alex Northover: Yeah, they're moving. 00:43:06.683 --> 00:43:09.773 And as, as they're moving that they move, there's a, the swing 00:43:09.783 --> 00:43:11.883 of the call left to right. 00:43:11.903 --> 00:43:13.173 So you're going that way as well. 00:43:13.173 --> 00:43:15.273 And then you're also going up and down in space. 00:43:15.403 --> 00:43:17.398 So you're kind of being moved through space. 00:43:18.438 --> 00:43:21.738 forward, sideways and up and down at the same time. 00:43:21.788 --> 00:43:22.598 So you're getting a lot on 00:43:23.088 --> 00:43:23.638 Rupert Isaacson: top of one of 00:43:23.938 --> 00:43:24.728 Alex Northover: the other person on top. 00:43:24.728 --> 00:43:24.958 Yeah. 00:43:25.638 --> 00:43:30.548 So you're you know, getting a big hit of, of movement all the time of 00:43:30.548 --> 00:43:31.868 regulatory movement all the time. 00:43:32.278 --> 00:43:35.318 And it engages the same systems in the brain. 00:43:35.318 --> 00:43:37.748 So you're getting the BDNF for the person as well. 00:43:38.088 --> 00:43:43.493 And it's also producing these, great experiences that are just really good fun. 00:43:43.513 --> 00:43:44.633 Like we just laugh. 00:43:44.633 --> 00:43:48.543 We just, there's just, it's just constant giggles and laughing and singing and joy. 00:43:48.543 --> 00:43:52.043 It's just a lovely space to be in that feels very different from anything else. 00:43:52.183 --> 00:43:55.583 And because they can do things on the horse. 00:43:56.243 --> 00:43:59.293 That they maybe wouldn't be able to do independently and because they 00:43:59.293 --> 00:44:03.133 have that feeling of like autonomy and control, like, we want to go here. 00:44:03.133 --> 00:44:04.283 That's where we're going. 00:44:04.683 --> 00:44:08.293 They get to decide what games they're going to play, how 00:44:08.293 --> 00:44:09.333 it's going to be set up. 00:44:09.423 --> 00:44:13.813 And, you know, that creates a huge sense of empowerment and just great feeling 00:44:13.813 --> 00:44:17.313 for the young person who probably doesn't have a lot of autonomy and 00:44:17.313 --> 00:44:18.803 choice in other parts of their lives. 00:44:19.803 --> 00:44:21.003 Rupert Isaacson: You just used the word joy. 00:44:22.723 --> 00:44:26.563 What makes working in this way? 00:44:27.593 --> 00:44:29.903 particularly joyful for you. 00:44:31.543 --> 00:44:32.353 I've seen how you work. 00:44:32.353 --> 00:44:33.463 I've seen how joyful it is. 00:44:33.813 --> 00:44:35.003 Why? 00:44:38.193 --> 00:44:39.523 Alex Northover: That's an interesting question. 00:44:39.523 --> 00:44:39.723 Why? 00:44:39.753 --> 00:44:39.993 Why? 00:44:40.523 --> 00:44:44.533 I think, I think the same things that are true for the young people we work 00:44:44.703 --> 00:44:46.443 with are true for us as practitioners. 00:44:47.043 --> 00:44:50.013 So I'm also in an environment where I'm able to fully meet 00:44:50.023 --> 00:44:51.683 my regulatory movement needs. 00:44:52.213 --> 00:44:57.993 And I think you know, I'm sure anybody who is listening to this podcast knows how 00:44:58.033 --> 00:45:00.093 good it is to be around horses and how. 00:45:00.593 --> 00:45:05.773 That you know, the Winston Churchill quote something about the outside of a horse 00:45:05.813 --> 00:45:09.523 that's good for an inside, the inside of a man, you know, they, they, they're lovely. 00:45:09.683 --> 00:45:12.243 They're just lovely beings to, to share a space with. 00:45:12.593 --> 00:45:14.983 And even when they're being a bit, you know, fruity or a 00:45:14.983 --> 00:45:16.223 bit naughty, it's still fun. 00:45:16.223 --> 00:45:18.813 You know, I never, I have always felt like that. 00:45:19.463 --> 00:45:20.153 But it's, 00:45:24.113 --> 00:45:27.083 I think it's, It feels productive. 00:45:27.463 --> 00:45:30.203 I get a great sense of satisfaction out of doing what we're doing. 00:45:30.203 --> 00:45:31.393 It feels helpful. 00:45:31.393 --> 00:45:35.563 It feels I think if you're spending time with other people and everybody's 00:45:35.563 --> 00:45:40.683 having fun and a good time and, you know, everybody's feeling good about it, 00:45:40.923 --> 00:45:45.253 there's no way for you not to get carried along in that way because we're social 00:45:45.333 --> 00:45:47.113 apes and we share those emotional states. 00:45:47.143 --> 00:45:49.723 So it is, you know, it's the whole tribe is having a good time 00:45:49.723 --> 00:45:51.713 and we all laugh and have fun. 00:45:52.168 --> 00:45:52.518 It's great. 00:45:55.258 --> 00:45:58.028 Rupert Isaacson: What you're describing there doesn't sound like 00:45:58.858 --> 00:46:03.458 a classical dressage lesson where normally you're being told, you 00:46:03.458 --> 00:46:04.878 know, that's all wrong and that shit. 00:46:04.998 --> 00:46:11.498 And it also doesn't sound much like a sort of regular therapeutic riding 00:46:11.498 --> 00:46:17.388 lesson where one might observe, you know, kids being led in circles. 00:46:17.923 --> 00:46:25.943 Maybe doing some things like posting a letter in a letterbox or something and it 00:46:25.983 --> 00:46:33.823 also doesn't sound much like, the normal equine assisted thing where one might 00:46:33.823 --> 00:46:41.833 be brought to a rampen or an arena with some horses doing some stuff and invited 00:46:41.833 --> 00:46:49.838 to a in a rather serious way interpret, you know, the horses might or might not 00:46:49.848 --> 00:46:57.058 be doing in a way that helps you reflect on, you know, your own emotional state. 00:46:58.098 --> 00:47:01.598 It's not that any of those three things that I've just described, the dressage 00:47:01.598 --> 00:47:08.638 lesson, the therapeutic riding lesson, or the equine assisted session aren't 00:47:08.638 --> 00:47:10.698 helpful because, and they clearly are, but 00:47:12.778 --> 00:47:15.908 they're not necessarily joyful. 00:47:15.948 --> 00:47:20.538 And by joyful, what I mean is You wouldn't look at them and say, oh, that's good 00:47:20.538 --> 00:47:23.878 crack, like, well, I want to do that because that just looks like so much 00:47:23.878 --> 00:47:26.978 fun, you know, you like, you might look at it and go, Oh, that's quite serious. 00:47:26.978 --> 00:47:27.838 I could sort of see. 00:47:28.198 --> 00:47:32.838 Oh, you know how there might be a, you know, a helpful thing there. 00:47:32.838 --> 00:47:36.168 And, you know, we're all required to be a bit reverential around 00:47:36.168 --> 00:47:38.688 this, but what you're, what you're describing sounds quite iconoclastic. 00:47:39.588 --> 00:47:40.268 It sounds quite, yeah. 00:47:41.208 --> 00:47:42.418 in a funny way rebellious. 00:47:42.558 --> 00:47:46.668 How is it that you can do that and make it feel like you're breaking the rules 00:47:47.198 --> 00:47:51.268 while at the same time observing these classical patterns that you talked about? 00:47:51.488 --> 00:47:57.988 How can observing these classical patterns help you to feel that you've broken free? 00:47:57.998 --> 00:48:00.958 That almost sounds like a paradox. 00:48:00.958 --> 00:48:02.188 Yeah, 00:48:02.468 --> 00:48:05.168 Alex Northover: I, I think, I think embracing 00:48:05.808 --> 00:48:06.698 Rupert Isaacson: what's the, what's, yeah, 00:48:07.043 --> 00:48:11.003 Alex Northover: Yeah, I think embracing the chaos and you have to, I think, you 00:48:11.003 --> 00:48:14.273 know, if you remember what the classical patterns were originally intended to 00:48:14.273 --> 00:48:20.383 produce, there is nothing reverential or controlled about a battlefield or 00:48:20.443 --> 00:48:21.913 a bullfighting because you're talking 00:48:21.913 --> 00:48:23.183 Rupert Isaacson: about training the horse for war. 00:48:23.243 --> 00:48:23.563 Right. 00:48:23.623 --> 00:48:23.943 Alex Northover: Yeah. 00:48:24.443 --> 00:48:24.673 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 00:48:24.703 --> 00:48:26.073 Alex Northover: So, I mean, obviously. 00:48:26.823 --> 00:48:30.003 We have a lot less death and goring, but we, you know, we 00:48:30.003 --> 00:48:31.263 have the same sort of chaos. 00:48:31.803 --> 00:48:35.953 Hopefully we have the same sorts of chaotic res we responding in the 00:48:35.953 --> 00:48:37.633 moment, I think is the key thing. 00:48:37.663 --> 00:48:44.623 So yes, that's true, but when you are producing anything from practice into 00:48:45.133 --> 00:48:50.573 its, implementation in the same way as when you're coming across the hunting 00:48:50.573 --> 00:48:54.843 field up until the hedge, or you're moving through your cross country course, or 00:48:54.843 --> 00:48:58.703 you're going onto your battlefield, you know, in with your warhorse, or you're 00:48:58.703 --> 00:49:03.673 going into a bullfighting arena, or, and we are responding at a moment in 00:49:03.683 --> 00:49:06.428 time, and things do not go as planned. 00:49:06.788 --> 00:49:09.918 in those environments run predictably to plan. 00:49:10.018 --> 00:49:14.078 You have to, there is an element of being responsive in the moment. 00:49:14.118 --> 00:49:17.258 And I think that's, that's all we're doing is just being responsive in the 00:49:17.258 --> 00:49:22.378 moment to where the young person is emotionally, intellectually, spiritually, 00:49:22.378 --> 00:49:24.058 what they want to be doing in that moment. 00:49:24.558 --> 00:49:32.558 And always with a focus of the fun, the joy and getting that feeling of, you 00:49:32.558 --> 00:49:34.358 know, euphoria for the young person. 00:49:35.023 --> 00:49:37.743 I want them to leave with that feeling. 00:49:38.823 --> 00:49:45.333 Rupert Isaacson: It's almost like we're taking the way of training a horse to 00:49:45.333 --> 00:49:51.523 basically harm our fellow man, which is, but it seems to have this Feel good 00:49:51.533 --> 00:49:57.833 by product and this neuroplasticity by product which I guess it has to otherwise 00:49:57.833 --> 00:50:01.433 why would the horse Change its brain so it could go into the battlefield 00:50:01.433 --> 00:50:10.713 and Then using that same thing to heal your fellow man rather than harm your 00:50:10.713 --> 00:50:12.918 fellow man That's an intriguing concept. 00:50:12.978 --> 00:50:15.188 Can you, can you just speak to that a little bit? 00:50:15.198 --> 00:50:15.208 I 00:50:16.578 --> 00:50:19.298 Alex Northover: think something that you had said to me when and 00:50:19.298 --> 00:50:20.288 I think you only said it once. 00:50:20.288 --> 00:50:24.018 I've never heard you say it again, but it really struck true to me. 00:50:24.208 --> 00:50:27.468 When I was doing my training, you talked about the environment and the 00:50:27.468 --> 00:50:32.708 fact that if you think about paradise or kind of the, you know, the, the 00:50:32.738 --> 00:50:36.498 religious representation of what paradise is, the garden of Eden, and 00:50:36.558 --> 00:50:40.078 Elysium fields, all of those things, it's nature with the danger removed. 00:50:40.848 --> 00:50:44.318 So, you know, that that's how you communicated that when you 00:50:44.318 --> 00:50:47.678 were training me and I think I think it's the same thing. 00:50:47.678 --> 00:50:49.928 So it's the excitement with the danger removed. 00:50:50.018 --> 00:50:52.548 So, you know, in any moment we're doing these things that. 00:50:53.578 --> 00:50:58.288 sound hectic, but because of how carefully we produce the horses and how well 00:50:58.298 --> 00:51:02.258 staffed we are and how well managed we are and how switched on we are there 00:51:02.258 --> 00:51:07.168 is, you can just embrace the moment of this kind of fantastical experience, but 00:51:07.168 --> 00:51:12.408 there's the, the, it is done in a very controlled way where everything is safe. 00:51:12.408 --> 00:51:17.268 Rupert Isaacson: So exciting the sympathetic nervous system without 00:51:17.268 --> 00:51:18.938 it going over into the red zone. 00:51:19.258 --> 00:51:19.478 Alex Northover: Yes. 00:51:19.688 --> 00:51:22.028 Rupert Isaacson: So that it inspires you to. 00:51:23.373 --> 00:51:24.873 I guess that's the nature of fun, isn't it? 00:51:24.873 --> 00:51:26.343 That's what fun is, right? 00:51:26.353 --> 00:51:26.373 Yeah, 00:51:26.383 --> 00:51:28.233 Alex Northover: it's riding the rollercoaster. 00:51:28.493 --> 00:51:32.753 You know, so that sensation and that fun and the kind of, the concept of 00:51:32.753 --> 00:51:37.723 doing something that feels extreme, but doing it in a very safe, controlled way. 00:51:38.443 --> 00:51:41.233 Rupert Isaacson: Now, some people might say that word extreme or 00:51:41.233 --> 00:51:46.433 that word exciting, that has no place in a therapeutic environment. 00:51:46.483 --> 00:51:51.463 Why does it work to actually have that in a therapeutic environment? 00:51:51.463 --> 00:51:54.328 And what makes it actually work? 00:51:55.218 --> 00:51:56.658 Safe like what are you doing? 00:51:57.318 --> 00:52:00.688 You've talked to us through these patterns, but what are you doing to a 00:52:00.688 --> 00:52:08.218 horse that makes it possible to make it seem to the kid or the service user or the 00:52:08.218 --> 00:52:13.448 client that things are a little bit wild? 00:52:14.803 --> 00:52:19.133 But to actually know, you the practitioner, they're knowing 00:52:19.153 --> 00:52:22.153 you've got to be responsible for keeping these kids that are coming 00:52:22.153 --> 00:52:25.353 from an educational authority or whatever, like, properly safe. 00:52:26.923 --> 00:52:27.333 Alex Northover: So, 00:52:27.393 --> 00:52:28.623 Rupert Isaacson: I 00:52:30.303 --> 00:52:33.633 Alex Northover: think it's having really clear communication. 00:52:34.363 --> 00:52:39.083 With the young person with the horse with the staff about what is happening, what 00:52:39.113 --> 00:52:41.393 everybody's role is within a session. 00:52:41.873 --> 00:52:46.193 So, we have a very high staff to person ratio. 00:52:47.163 --> 00:52:51.383 And, you know, if somebody is doing something that involves like a game of 00:52:51.383 --> 00:52:53.908 tag or something like that, there will be. 00:52:54.368 --> 00:52:58.588 Members of staff who are sort of hamming up the role of being silly and 00:52:58.588 --> 00:53:01.268 throwing themselves around the ground, but equally there will be people that 00:53:01.268 --> 00:53:05.678 are sidewalking with the horse and the rider and, and, and there as a 00:53:05.688 --> 00:53:10.258 backup and an extra pair of hands and maintaining and monitoring the situation. 00:53:10.818 --> 00:53:16.818 And we always have very clear kind of open lines of communication whereby 00:53:17.118 --> 00:53:20.608 anybody at any point absolutely has total permission and carte blanche 00:53:20.608 --> 00:53:21.708 to say this doesn't feel good. 00:53:21.708 --> 00:53:23.148 And I think we should stop and we do. 00:53:23.648 --> 00:53:27.498 It doesn't, you know, it doesn't really happen because of how 00:53:27.498 --> 00:53:28.698 carefully everything is set up. 00:53:28.718 --> 00:53:31.028 But at any point, if anybody doesn't feel comfortable, they are 00:53:31.098 --> 00:53:33.708 absolutely empowered to say that and we change what we're doing. 00:53:39.678 --> 00:53:43.488 Rupert Isaacson: You know, where we arrived at from, from what you just, 00:53:44.388 --> 00:53:51.058 to what you just said is if you think back to all of the horse education and 00:53:51.058 --> 00:53:56.408 knowledge that you've gone through in order to know how to prepare a horse for 00:53:56.408 --> 00:53:59.858 this job, to prepare a horse for that job, to know how to make a horse safe and 00:53:59.858 --> 00:54:04.008 effective in this type of show ring or in the hunt field where things are a bit 00:54:04.008 --> 00:54:08.628 chaotic or this or this, then adding that classical riding component and then adding 00:54:08.628 --> 00:54:10.868 humans that can put all this together. 00:54:11.628 --> 00:54:12.748 adding some brain science. 00:54:13.478 --> 00:54:13.828 Okay. 00:54:14.118 --> 00:54:18.158 I can see how that all goes, particularly if you have the right people and the right 00:54:18.158 --> 00:54:20.928 horses, you know, preparing well together. 00:54:22.678 --> 00:54:24.258 At the same time, 00:54:26.818 --> 00:54:36.198 it sounds like you also have to be prepared to risk a little bit the apparent 00:54:36.208 --> 00:54:44.658 loss of control in order to gain some sort of mental or emotional step forward. 00:54:44.798 --> 00:54:48.268 How do you, how do you bridge that? 00:54:48.278 --> 00:54:50.548 That, that's a tricky thing to bridge. 00:54:50.548 --> 00:54:51.678 How do you, how do you do that? 00:54:53.108 --> 00:54:56.388 Alex Northover: I think not being, it's sort of releasing your own ego. 00:54:57.088 --> 00:54:58.128 So How do you do that? 00:54:58.128 --> 00:54:58.568 I 00:54:58.568 --> 00:55:01.758 Rupert Isaacson: mean, I've been trying to do that for 500 years and, yeah. 00:55:02.358 --> 00:55:04.118 Alex Northover: I think, I think approaching things with a 00:55:04.118 --> 00:55:06.148 sense of curiosity and wonder. 00:55:06.678 --> 00:55:10.558 And, you know, and, and, and seeing what happens and understanding that 00:55:10.558 --> 00:55:15.758 it is, it's a it's approaching it as play as an, as experimentation and, you 00:55:15.758 --> 00:55:22.338 know, trying things out and not having you know, not, not having, not be too, 00:55:22.628 --> 00:55:26.608 not being too strongly married to the idea of your concept of how things will 00:55:26.618 --> 00:55:28.198 work out or what should be happening. 00:55:29.398 --> 00:55:34.428 The only thing that I want to happen is for the young person that's. 00:55:34.918 --> 00:55:39.588 with us to leave the space feeling happier and more regulated than 00:55:39.588 --> 00:55:40.448 they were when they arrived. 00:55:40.488 --> 00:55:41.478 That's my only aim. 00:55:41.948 --> 00:55:48.483 How we get there is dictated by them and It, I don't mind if they 00:55:48.483 --> 00:55:51.363 come and they don't want to have, they don't want to ride or do 00:55:51.393 --> 00:55:52.523 anything with the horses at all. 00:55:52.523 --> 00:55:53.833 Sometimes sessions look like that. 00:55:54.153 --> 00:55:57.323 And sometimes sessions are very calm and peaceful because that's how the young 00:55:57.323 --> 00:55:59.133 person presents their need at that time. 00:55:59.583 --> 00:56:03.023 Sometimes we lie in the sand and make shapes out of the clouds. 00:56:03.103 --> 00:56:05.523 Sometimes we go for a walk and collect flowers. 00:56:05.583 --> 00:56:09.053 Sometimes, you know, it might just be grooming and cuddling and 00:56:09.053 --> 00:56:10.403 spending time with the horses. 00:56:10.743 --> 00:56:11.513 It's a whole. 00:56:12.113 --> 00:56:18.183 So the gamut of allowing that young person to meet what their needs are 00:56:18.203 --> 00:56:23.143 in that moment and being set up in such a way that you can be responsive 00:56:23.153 --> 00:56:26.203 to however they show up, whatever they come with in that moment. 00:56:27.373 --> 00:56:30.223 Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so I'm a kid and I come to you and I'm 00:56:30.223 --> 00:56:31.383 not interested in horses at all. 00:56:31.813 --> 00:56:35.113 And I find myself being sent there for whatever reason. 00:56:35.593 --> 00:56:37.923 And what I'm interested in is 00:56:39.973 --> 00:56:44.693 Deadpool or a particular Pokemon character. 00:56:44.743 --> 00:56:44.993 Right. 00:56:46.558 --> 00:56:50.118 Maybe you're not interested in that. 00:56:50.668 --> 00:56:56.038 And they really don't want to engage with the horse, but your job is to, as you 00:56:56.038 --> 00:57:02.148 say, leave them feeling self regulated and, you know, as joyful as possible. 00:57:02.388 --> 00:57:04.158 And also perhaps to teach them something. 00:57:04.808 --> 00:57:04.978 Yeah. 00:57:05.018 --> 00:57:05.648 So. 00:57:07.643 --> 00:57:16.703 I arrive in my ten year old self, which frankly I never grew out of, so, and then 00:57:16.763 --> 00:57:26.283 I say, I communicate pretty strongly to you, no horse, and, or Deadpool, and, 00:57:26.923 --> 00:57:34.783 or this Pokemon, and I don't like your ducks, and I don't like your, this poo 00:57:34.783 --> 00:57:40.118 that's on the ground, and I don't like, I'm all about my my keeping my running 00:57:40.118 --> 00:57:48.488 shoes clean and I don't want to be told anything and I arrive In your yard. 00:57:49.388 --> 00:57:49.918 What do you do? 00:57:51.878 --> 00:57:59.258 Alex Northover: So I would provide As much as I could that was hinged around those 00:57:59.318 --> 00:58:04.378 special interests that are, you know, specific things that have been indicated 00:58:04.378 --> 00:58:08.038 to me that a young person wants, and it's in our intake form, we always ask 00:58:08.558 --> 00:58:14.398 and ask what they like and try and have as much of that available as possible. 00:58:14.408 --> 00:58:17.773 So if you turn up and you're not keen on the horses. 00:58:17.783 --> 00:58:18.753 That's absolutely fine. 00:58:18.903 --> 00:58:19.603 We won't do that at all. 00:58:19.603 --> 00:58:21.423 You can completely dictate that. 00:58:21.433 --> 00:58:25.883 It's no issue but there might be like, you know, we have to find 00:58:26.433 --> 00:58:29.583 Deadpool's limbs and put him, he, he regrows things, right, Deadpool? 00:58:29.613 --> 00:58:33.883 So maybe we have to go and find his new limbs that he needs to regrow and 00:58:33.883 --> 00:58:36.833 they'll be around the farmyard somewhere and then maybe we've got to paint them 00:58:36.833 --> 00:58:41.093 and put them together to like a giant push pun, push pin puppet type thing. 00:58:41.593 --> 00:58:47.590 And What I have found is over time, even people who, young people who 00:58:47.590 --> 00:58:51.490 were initially quite resistant or a little nervous of the horses, I 00:58:51.490 --> 00:58:53.000 think that comes from two places. 00:58:53.190 --> 00:58:55.720 First of all, it's lack of familiarity because horses are big and if you've 00:58:55.720 --> 00:58:58.050 not spent a lot of time with them, they can be quite intimidating. 00:58:58.680 --> 00:59:01.260 And also it's a feeling of demand. 00:59:02.810 --> 00:59:07.490 And most young people, with a little bit of time, once they realize that 00:59:07.520 --> 00:59:12.070 actually the no is going to be listened to and there's no expectation, there's 00:59:12.070 --> 00:59:15.210 no demand on my part for them to do anything other than what they want to 00:59:15.210 --> 00:59:18.190 do, those barriers begin to fall away. 00:59:18.690 --> 00:59:22.900 See the horses and sort of spend time on the yard and see other people come in and 00:59:22.910 --> 00:59:26.390 going and the horse is being worked in the background, that natural curiosity comes 00:59:26.390 --> 00:59:28.200 out and eventually they will want to try. 00:59:28.710 --> 00:59:34.325 That might look like they are just using the horse as a transport from Like around 00:59:34.325 --> 00:59:38.035 a treasure hunt or from point A or point B, we, we have a nice site here with 00:59:38.035 --> 00:59:39.425 lots of different pockets of things. 00:59:39.635 --> 00:59:42.435 We've got a woodland and a river and you know, we might 00:59:42.435 --> 00:59:46.315 be just riding to get somewhere because it's easier than walking. 00:59:46.585 --> 00:59:46.705 The legs 00:59:46.705 --> 00:59:50.575 Rupert Isaacson: get tired and suddenly the horse becomes an attractive option. 00:59:51.325 --> 00:59:56.415 Alex Northover: But equally, if, If, like I said, if you, if you have let 00:59:56.415 --> 00:59:59.495 go of that ego of the thing of that, you know, the child is coming to ride, 00:59:59.495 --> 01:00:02.865 if you don't have that as the core principle, if the core principle is just 01:00:02.865 --> 01:00:05.755 enjoyment and joy, it doesn't matter to me if the child chooses not to ride. 01:00:05.785 --> 01:00:08.465 It doesn't matter to me if they never get on a horse, as long as they are 01:00:08.465 --> 01:00:12.135 leaving more regulated and with a sense of joy and, you know, accomplishment 01:00:12.135 --> 01:00:13.005 and they've had a good time. 01:00:13.555 --> 01:00:19.705 And it's not it, you know, it's, it's an, it's about personal preference as well. 01:00:19.735 --> 01:00:24.485 So it might be that this, me as a person or a another member of staff is 01:00:24.485 --> 01:00:25.905 not the right person for that child. 01:00:25.905 --> 01:00:28.575 So maybe we try them with a different member of staff. 01:00:29.105 --> 01:00:32.785 Children usually gravitate towards the adult whose energy they like the best, 01:00:32.785 --> 01:00:34.825 and we tend to buddy them up in that way. 01:00:35.325 --> 01:00:40.795 But you know, for you, you, you pretty quickly know. 01:00:42.825 --> 01:00:46.495 the children who, for them, it is not the right thing. 01:00:46.505 --> 01:00:47.515 The horses are not the right thing. 01:00:47.515 --> 01:00:48.805 And then you have to find something else. 01:00:48.805 --> 01:00:51.245 You have to find another way of getting into that sort of 01:00:51.325 --> 01:00:53.285 emotional and physiological space. 01:00:53.965 --> 01:00:54.805 Rupert Isaacson: How often does that happen? 01:00:55.735 --> 01:00:59.055 Alex Northover: Rarely, very rarely. 01:00:59.125 --> 01:01:02.245 I think The whole time we've been doing this, I think we've only had 01:01:05.135 --> 01:01:07.915 two children who were a hard no and never wanted to do it. 01:01:07.915 --> 01:01:10.645 We've had children who were slow burners and it took a long time 01:01:11.165 --> 01:01:15.005 and then, you know, we've also had families who, you know, for various 01:01:15.005 --> 01:01:22.775 reasons have moved away or, you know, had medical challenges or whatever. 01:01:22.775 --> 01:01:27.465 That means they've gone on to something else, but it's unusual for, for somebody 01:01:27.465 --> 01:01:30.575 not to, want to do it eventually. 01:01:30.575 --> 01:01:34.115 But I think when the pressure is off and they can do it in their own time, 01:01:34.645 --> 01:01:39.295 that natural curiosity and that trust in that these adults aren't going to coerce 01:01:39.785 --> 01:01:42.795 or manipulate me into doing something that is counter to my own interests. 01:01:43.625 --> 01:01:48.745 So, you know, they are more willing to try something because they know 01:01:48.745 --> 01:01:50.645 that they can say, no, thank you. 01:01:50.645 --> 01:01:55.285 I've had enough or I want to stop now and not have an agenda pushed because 01:01:55.295 --> 01:01:56.977 there isn't an agenda, doesn't matter. 01:01:56.977 --> 01:01:57.618 Okay, that's 01:01:57.618 --> 01:01:58.259 Rupert Isaacson: the kid. 01:01:58.259 --> 01:02:02.423 Now, what if a teacher or a, someone brings the kids out from 01:02:02.423 --> 01:02:03.705 a local educational authority 01:02:06.145 --> 01:02:12.675 or a parent says, look, I've come here for equine therapy 01:02:12.835 --> 01:02:14.925 or equine assisted something. 01:02:15.445 --> 01:02:20.900 And this kid, Young person is supposed to engage with a horse 01:02:20.900 --> 01:02:22.030 and that's what I've come here. 01:02:22.470 --> 01:02:29.890 I'm spending the money and they must do this and Then let's say also a kid comes 01:02:29.890 --> 01:02:36.520 in with and they're just on their tablet They're just on the phone and you've got 01:02:36.530 --> 01:02:41.410 someone saying no get off your phone You know, this is time now for the war and 01:02:41.420 --> 01:02:46.655 you see this whole conflict unfolding. 01:02:47.005 --> 01:02:47.745 What's your strategy? 01:02:47.745 --> 01:02:48.115 What do you do? 01:02:48.925 --> 01:02:51.105 Alex Northover: I put them on the horse with the phone or the tablet. 01:02:51.235 --> 01:02:52.045 They want to sit on it. 01:02:52.055 --> 01:02:54.405 They can sit on the horse and sit on the phone and the tablet, and we 01:02:54.405 --> 01:02:57.975 will just go for a little hack and they will, will either long line 01:02:58.005 --> 01:03:01.655 or work from the ground so that the horse is moving comfortably for them. 01:03:01.655 --> 01:03:04.495 And if they want to be on it, they can be on it, but very quickly. 01:03:06.495 --> 01:03:07.835 It's a regulatory tool. 01:03:08.205 --> 01:03:14.090 And if, if you don't, sweat it, they get what they need from it and move on. 01:03:14.310 --> 01:03:15.860 Often it's to do with the transition. 01:03:16.150 --> 01:03:19.990 So, you know, if, if a young person, the transition into a new space can 01:03:19.990 --> 01:03:23.470 be difficult and the device is a way of like shutting out that stimulus. 01:03:24.485 --> 01:03:25.945 So, you know, that's fine. 01:03:26.425 --> 01:03:30.005 You can have a little watch of some videos while we're getting ready or, 01:03:30.175 --> 01:03:32.645 you know, or doing something, or you can just sit on the horse and watch videos, 01:03:32.725 --> 01:03:39.965 but pretty quickly, again, the demand aspect, if it's, if it's not, it doesn't 01:03:39.965 --> 01:03:41.475 become an issue if we don't make it one. 01:03:42.065 --> 01:03:42.395 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 01:03:42.705 --> 01:03:44.885 And I think, go ahead, sorry, and I was going 01:03:44.885 --> 01:03:47.675 Alex Northover: to say, I think we, we sort of talk through these 01:03:47.675 --> 01:03:49.115 things very explicitly when. 01:03:49.695 --> 01:03:56.165 Providers or parents come at first, and I also stress the point that this is 01:03:56.375 --> 01:04:01.335 their family, they are the expert in their child, and if what I'm suggesting 01:04:01.335 --> 01:04:05.080 doesn't seem like a good model for them, if it doesn't seem like it rings 01:04:05.080 --> 01:04:09.190 true and you know, it sits comfortably in their gut for their child, then 01:04:09.190 --> 01:04:10.490 it probably isn't the right thing. 01:04:10.690 --> 01:04:15.520 And you know, in which case I can signpost you to maybe another service 01:04:15.520 --> 01:04:19.450 or somebody else that that might be able to to help you in a different way. 01:04:19.460 --> 01:04:21.900 If you don't feel that our approaches are marrying with your. 01:04:22.385 --> 01:04:26.815 Your sort of worldview on what you how you want to approach your child or 01:04:26.815 --> 01:04:28.235 what you think will work for your child 01:04:28.565 --> 01:04:31.745 Rupert Isaacson: And before teachers or local or parents or a local educational 01:04:31.745 --> 01:04:35.905 authority, whoever bring that young person out Are you giving them a bit of a 01:04:38.625 --> 01:04:39.515 free? 01:04:39.525 --> 01:04:45.575 heads up training Explanation of we work in this way because blah are you okay 01:04:45.575 --> 01:04:47.545 with that before you even come here or? 01:04:48.140 --> 01:04:49.680 Alex Northover: Yeah, there's usually a preamble. 01:04:49.880 --> 01:04:53.180 So if it's, if it's a school or somebody commissioning a service, there's, 01:04:53.390 --> 01:04:56.610 there's often been quite a long run up to the young person actually coming. 01:04:56.610 --> 01:05:01.913 The family play dates are a little bit different because people self refer to us. 01:05:01.913 --> 01:05:07.510 So again, we send information and we have a sort of a, an email conversation 01:05:07.510 --> 01:05:09.560 prior to the young person coming. 01:05:09.560 --> 01:05:11.800 And then when they come for the first time, we show them 01:05:11.810 --> 01:05:13.200 around, talk through what we do. 01:05:13.220 --> 01:05:13.960 I go through it. 01:05:14.260 --> 01:05:17.260 An overline of what a session might look like and then, you 01:05:17.260 --> 01:05:21.850 know, they, they, that either feels comfortable to them or it doesn't 01:05:21.900 --> 01:05:23.640 and that's okay if, if, if there's, 01:05:24.220 --> 01:05:27.085 Rupert Isaacson: but they have time to take in the, the, the, 01:05:27.085 --> 01:05:28.420 the work before they arrive. 01:05:28.760 --> 01:05:29.120 Alex Northover: Yes. 01:05:29.170 --> 01:05:29.450 Yeah. 01:05:30.990 --> 01:05:34.050 So they've had, they've had that information at the beginning. 01:05:34.800 --> 01:05:35.250 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:05:35.990 --> 01:05:40.660 Now you also, this sounds very complex you also talked about 01:05:40.660 --> 01:05:42.470 not being married to a certain. 01:05:44.320 --> 01:05:49.760 Speaking of marriage and being married, you have another half and your other 01:05:49.760 --> 01:05:53.390 half, Lenny brings, is not a horse person, 01:05:55.620 --> 01:05:58.240 brings a lot to these sessions. 01:05:58.590 --> 01:06:02.140 Can you talk to us about, and she's not here to speak for herself, 01:06:02.140 --> 01:06:07.650 obviously, but can you talk to us about her, her role in this? 01:06:07.820 --> 01:06:16.735 And then how you guys, work as a team this way, because I think for a lot of 01:06:16.745 --> 01:06:22.665 people listening, there's an assumption that let's say I, the listener, want to 01:06:22.785 --> 01:06:24.845 set up some sort of equine assisted thing. 01:06:26.405 --> 01:06:32.005 There's often in one's head an idea of this is me, the individual setting 01:06:32.005 --> 01:06:35.085 up this thing for these people. 01:06:35.175 --> 01:06:40.355 However, I think as we all know the way human relationships work best because 01:06:40.355 --> 01:06:46.820 we're social apes is Through some sort of extended family tribe clan thing 01:06:47.500 --> 01:06:53.840 and at the center of that You know, even though I know you neither you nor 01:06:53.840 --> 01:07:01.270 Lenny look a day over 23 There has to be a sort of a tribal elder council. 01:07:01.270 --> 01:07:08.130 You know what I mean that and It seems to me that you and Lenny really do this. 01:07:08.140 --> 01:07:10.800 Lenny will kill me for saying she looks like an elder, but 01:07:11.830 --> 01:07:13.620 I'm speaking as an old soul. 01:07:14.170 --> 01:07:14.530 Right. 01:07:16.010 --> 01:07:19.800 Talk us through that dynamic and, and how you guys work together and what. 01:07:20.020 --> 01:07:25.630 Expertise Lenny brings, and maybe we should actually have her in, you know, 01:07:25.630 --> 01:07:29.940 for her own interview, but without that luxury right now, talk us through this 01:07:29.940 --> 01:07:34.560 whole dynamic of how making momentum with you and Lenny works, because I've watched 01:07:34.560 --> 01:07:36.020 it at work, and it's intriguing to me. 01:07:37.350 --> 01:07:45.150 Alex Northover: So I think we have complimentary, but differing personality 01:07:45.150 --> 01:07:49.225 types and knowledge bases and the things that, you know, That we sort 01:07:49.225 --> 01:07:51.805 of mesh together really nicely. 01:07:51.805 --> 01:07:57.175 So she has the same core set of values, but comes at it from a 01:07:57.205 --> 01:07:58.435 completely different perspective. 01:07:58.435 --> 01:08:04.865 So her practice is all around creativity, self expression, art making things. 01:08:04.985 --> 01:08:06.135 She was a ceramicist. 01:08:06.195 --> 01:08:07.275 Well, she is a ceramicist. 01:08:07.785 --> 01:08:10.805 So her degree is in ceramics and she was an art teacher. 01:08:11.155 --> 01:08:16.305 So she's very focused on creating, producing something, making things. 01:08:16.805 --> 01:08:20.205 And the nature of that in the same way as they approach the horse 01:08:20.215 --> 01:08:26.155 is very experimental, because you have to be able to make errors. 01:08:26.995 --> 01:08:31.455 You have to, you know, if you're producing a painting, like an oil painting or 01:08:31.475 --> 01:08:34.735 something, it's built in layers and there will be moments where you hate it and 01:08:34.735 --> 01:08:39.695 it looks awful and you've got to push through and adjust and, you know, in this, 01:08:39.715 --> 01:08:43.875 in this, with the ceramics, it's, it's a process that the material physically 01:08:43.875 --> 01:08:48.405 changes and, you know, things can go wrong and explode in the kiln and it's all about 01:08:48.405 --> 01:08:50.805 like, resilience and trusting the process. 01:08:51.045 --> 01:08:55.325 So it's, it's very Although it's a completely different field, I think 01:08:55.335 --> 01:08:59.995 lots of the core values and underpinning thought processes are very similar. 01:09:00.525 --> 01:09:05.685 So that works nicely together and in the same, as I was saying before, I think 01:09:05.745 --> 01:09:10.235 children gravitate towards the adult that is providing the sort of energetic 01:09:10.235 --> 01:09:14.225 space or the approach or the personality type that they need in that moment. 01:09:14.305 --> 01:09:17.545 And I know that there are kids that come that are Lenny kids and 01:09:17.545 --> 01:09:18.645 there are kids that come that are. 01:09:20.040 --> 01:09:23.110 My kids and there are kids that come, you know, that are drawn 01:09:23.130 --> 01:09:24.190 to another member of staff. 01:09:24.220 --> 01:09:26.870 We have great people that we work with. 01:09:26.870 --> 01:09:29.990 I have absolute joy with all the people we work with. 01:09:30.140 --> 01:09:34.220 They've got a cracking team and they all bring slightly different 01:09:34.900 --> 01:09:39.990 but complementary approaches, you know, so that might be the music. 01:09:39.990 --> 01:09:41.440 It might be sport. 01:09:41.600 --> 01:09:46.885 It might be an interest in, you know, anime or, you know, a another thing, 01:09:46.885 --> 01:09:52.065 but there's, there's a suite of skill sets that everybody brings something 01:09:52.305 --> 01:09:55.515 and there will always be a child that is really interested in that thing. 01:09:57.035 --> 01:09:59.375 Rupert Isaacson: Do you think that if to have a really effective equine 01:09:59.375 --> 01:10:03.045 assisted practice, you've actually got to have a number of people on 01:10:03.045 --> 01:10:07.265 the team who are not equine assisted, who are bringing other things in? 01:10:07.755 --> 01:10:12.415 Do you think it could work if everyone's just equine focused? 01:10:12.425 --> 01:10:14.275 Like give me your thoughts on that. 01:10:14.725 --> 01:10:17.355 Alex Northover: I think even if your team is equine focused, I mean the 01:10:17.355 --> 01:10:21.115 majority of our team is equine focused or have, you know, but, but they 01:10:21.115 --> 01:10:22.905 are, we are, none of us one thing. 01:10:22.915 --> 01:10:23.775 Nobody's a monolith. 01:10:23.985 --> 01:10:28.545 So, you know, as much as I eat, drink and breathe horses, there are 01:10:28.545 --> 01:10:31.385 other things that I am interested in, other things that I've pursued, 01:10:31.405 --> 01:10:32.645 other things in my background. 01:10:32.665 --> 01:10:32.895 Rupert Isaacson: Like what? 01:10:34.065 --> 01:10:36.375 Alex Northover: Well, I was a scientist, you know, science. 01:10:36.385 --> 01:10:37.985 So I'm interested in the natural world. 01:10:37.985 --> 01:10:41.675 I'm interested in the environment and ecology and the space that we live in. 01:10:41.675 --> 01:10:44.655 And you know, the, the, that is interesting to me. 01:10:44.655 --> 01:10:45.725 I really love physics. 01:10:45.785 --> 01:10:46.755 I wasn't a physicist. 01:10:46.755 --> 01:10:50.225 I was a biologist, but I, I'm really interested in those spaces. 01:10:50.635 --> 01:10:55.965 And I think everybody comes to the table with more than one offering. 01:10:56.295 --> 01:11:00.075 And it's just about Making sure that people have the opportunity to 01:11:00.075 --> 01:11:02.615 showcase their skills and talents and interests and knowledge. 01:11:03.720 --> 01:11:04.860 Rupert Isaacson: You mentioned science. 01:11:06.710 --> 01:11:10.470 I happen to know that you are doing something rather interesting 01:11:10.470 --> 01:11:15.100 and scientific through Manchester Metropolitan University. 01:11:15.430 --> 01:11:17.080 Could you talk us through that? 01:11:18.290 --> 01:11:18.500 Alex Northover: Yes. 01:11:18.500 --> 01:11:23.100 So I was lucky enough to receive a Fulbright scholarship, PhD 01:11:23.100 --> 01:11:29.650 scholarship from White Rose Doctoral Training Partnership which is a 01:11:29.720 --> 01:11:34.230 collaboration of several Northern universities, hence the white rose. 01:11:34.660 --> 01:11:39.900 So there's University of Leeds, University of York, Sheffield, Bradford, Manchester 01:11:39.910 --> 01:11:43.740 Metropolitan University, Sheffield Hallam University, and the University of Hull. 01:11:44.320 --> 01:11:48.610 So they have funding, pools of funding for open core PhDs. 01:11:48.820 --> 01:11:53.000 So, with most PhDs, or it's more usual for PhDs that you 01:11:53.000 --> 01:11:55.410 apply to an existing project. 01:11:55.520 --> 01:11:56.580 Almost like a job role. 01:11:56.760 --> 01:11:59.480 So somebody will advertise the funding that they have, and you 01:11:59.480 --> 01:12:03.930 apply for that, and you get your PhD working on this larger project. 01:12:05.260 --> 01:12:09.120 These are open calls, so you submit the project you have designed, and 01:12:10.500 --> 01:12:12.260 it's your project that you've created. 01:12:14.240 --> 01:12:17.880 So they have different sort of streams, different areas of interest. 01:12:17.880 --> 01:12:22.307 So mine's their well well being health and communities pathway. 01:12:22.827 --> 01:12:28.632 So, My PhD is looking at co designing outcome measures for equity assisted 01:12:28.632 --> 01:12:31.122 supports with autistic co researchers. 01:12:31.502 --> 01:12:39.987 So it's forefronting the experiences, the lived experiences, and the, wishes and 01:12:40.547 --> 01:12:45.867 needs and feelings of what is important for autistic people for them to decide 01:12:45.867 --> 01:12:49.007 the success criteria of an equestrian 01:12:50.307 --> 01:12:50.687 Rupert Isaacson: support. 01:12:51.587 --> 01:13:00.087 Decoding what you just said in hub terms, that sounds an awful lot like letting 01:13:00.277 --> 01:13:07.557 autistic people tell therapists, equine assisted or otherwise, what works for 01:13:07.557 --> 01:13:13.026 them rather than being told what doesn't. 01:13:14.637 --> 01:13:15.327 Works for them. 01:13:16.337 --> 01:13:16.577 Alex Northover: Yeah. 01:13:16.577 --> 01:13:16.937 So that's 01:13:17.117 --> 01:13:17.837 Rupert Isaacson: interesting. 01:13:18.547 --> 01:13:21.217 Talk to us in layman's terms about this. 01:13:22.467 --> 01:13:25.107 Alex Northover: So when you are providing any kind of service, you 01:13:25.107 --> 01:13:30.248 obviously have to demonstrate to funders or public bodies that you are. 01:13:30.748 --> 01:13:34.088 Doing something that is meaningful because people are you know, funding 01:13:34.228 --> 01:13:37.738 attendance somewhere along the line, so we have to measure outcomes for 01:13:37.758 --> 01:13:39.958 any type of support or intervention. 01:13:40.508 --> 01:13:47.078 But if you have your service users, if you co design your service with your 01:13:47.078 --> 01:13:51.888 service users, and your service users are dictating what they found meaningful. 01:13:52.188 --> 01:13:56.708 impactful and meaningful from a service from their own perspective 01:13:56.718 --> 01:13:59.838 for their own benefit, they can dictate the success criteria. 01:14:00.218 --> 01:14:05.158 And that means that the whole service becomes neurodivergent affirming 01:14:05.318 --> 01:14:09.828 because you are measuring the things that are of importance to the autistic 01:14:09.828 --> 01:14:16.398 people that are attending and not what we neurotypical people may externally 01:14:16.398 --> 01:14:17.858 believe to be important to them. 01:14:18.278 --> 01:14:19.058 You're, you're, you're. 01:14:19.883 --> 01:14:23.923 removing the assumption you're centering the lived experience 01:14:23.923 --> 01:14:25.843 as the the person is the expert. 01:14:26.673 --> 01:14:30.003 Rupert Isaacson: It's the first time I've ever heard of anyone asking 01:14:30.063 --> 01:14:31.373 autistic people what they think. 01:14:32.453 --> 01:14:32.563 That's 01:14:32.563 --> 01:14:33.123 Alex Northover: not true. 01:14:33.163 --> 01:14:34.443 You asked Temple Grandin. 01:14:34.723 --> 01:14:35.313 Well, right. 01:14:36.043 --> 01:14:36.883 Rupert Isaacson: Outside of me. 01:14:37.433 --> 01:14:43.103 And one of the things which I find fascinating about this PhD that 01:14:43.103 --> 01:14:49.253 you're doing is that you asked Rowan, you asked Scub, my son 01:14:49.703 --> 01:14:51.163 to come in and consult with you. 01:14:51.878 --> 01:15:00.278 On what his perception was, is, on equine assisted work, what works for 01:15:00.278 --> 01:15:05.768 him, what might not work so well for him and to help you with the study. 01:15:05.788 --> 01:15:10.958 And what was so interesting when you did that was I was placed in quite a 01:15:10.958 --> 01:15:19.208 vulnerable position because there's Rowan who's grown up with the equine assisted 01:15:19.208 --> 01:15:28.238 model that basically, I designed in order to follow him on the recommendation 01:15:28.238 --> 01:15:32.478 first of Temple Grandin and then by what he showed me himself worked. 01:15:33.738 --> 01:15:36.758 But it was very interesting to, to listen to him 01:15:39.238 --> 01:15:44.203 talk about effectively best practice, you know, and then to realize, oh my 01:15:44.203 --> 01:15:50.473 gosh, well, you talk about getting rid of ego, you know, know what one needs to 01:15:50.473 --> 01:15:55.303 do is, is hear him talk about what he'd like more of what he'd like less of. 01:15:55.803 --> 01:15:59.623 Because you know, that's going to inform the next generation 01:15:59.623 --> 01:16:02.143 coming up or best practice. 01:16:02.193 --> 01:16:07.453 It's amazing that you're doing this within the equine assisted world, 01:16:07.483 --> 01:16:17.358 because As you know, equine assisted providers tend to be bossy, horsey people. 01:16:18.278 --> 01:16:20.798 And guilty at large, by the way, I'm holding my hand up here. 01:16:20.798 --> 01:16:26.828 I mean, horse people have to be de facto a little bit bossy in order to be able 01:16:26.828 --> 01:16:30.348 to handle a horse herd because horses themselves are a little bit bossy. 01:16:30.348 --> 01:16:34.088 And you know, I mean, it's, we're mirrors and it's kind of a little bit the culture. 01:16:34.088 --> 01:16:38.668 So it's, it's a really interesting dance when you have to kind of give up your 01:16:38.678 --> 01:16:44.333 bossiness But at the same time, direct that bossiness over there to create, 01:16:44.943 --> 01:16:49.603 you know, safety and order and some structure, but at the same time, lose 01:16:49.603 --> 01:16:54.043 that bossiness completely in order to listen to the client group, the service 01:16:54.043 --> 01:16:55.833 users that now are informing you. 01:16:55.833 --> 01:16:58.653 And you talked about the death of the ego. 01:16:58.653 --> 01:17:01.743 You talked about the letting go of the ego. 01:17:03.773 --> 01:17:04.593 How's that working for you? 01:17:05.003 --> 01:17:07.593 I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's a tough dance, right? 01:17:07.633 --> 01:17:07.903 I mean. 01:17:08.613 --> 01:17:08.823 It 01:17:08.823 --> 01:17:09.283 Alex Northover: is. 01:17:09.353 --> 01:17:10.923 And I've kind of gone through this. 01:17:11.823 --> 01:17:13.623 I have got to the place where. 01:17:14.508 --> 01:17:20.968 For the academic work, certainly, I am comfortable with discomfort and I have, 01:17:21.688 --> 01:17:25.028 I have gone through kind of, it's a reiterative process, I've gone through 01:17:25.028 --> 01:17:29.888 this over and over again and I kind of go through this like spiral of, do I, should 01:17:29.888 --> 01:17:32.288 I even be occupying a seat at this table? 01:17:32.458 --> 01:17:32.918 Really? 01:17:32.978 --> 01:17:39.538 Like, you know, am I, do, should I, as a neurotypical person even 01:17:39.548 --> 01:17:42.668 be completing this research at all? 01:17:43.008 --> 01:17:44.388 And how do I. 01:17:44.943 --> 01:17:45.583 Balance 01:17:48.473 --> 01:17:53.853 the fact that the bulk of the benefit from the research comes to me because I 01:17:53.863 --> 01:17:58.743 have the scholarship, I have the living stipend, I get the academic qualification, 01:17:58.863 --> 01:18:04.283 but also the responsibility for the project rests with me because I've got 01:18:04.293 --> 01:18:08.343 to like actually manage it and produce it and deliver something at the same time. 01:18:08.843 --> 01:18:11.843 Really wanting to honor the fact that those. 01:18:12.628 --> 01:18:14.068 Voices with the lived experience. 01:18:14.068 --> 01:18:21.808 My autistic co researchers are the experts in, you know, they are the authorities. 01:18:21.808 --> 01:18:26.478 They are the expert voice here and representing them and advocating from 01:18:26.478 --> 01:18:31.378 the, for them in academic spaces where they, when, when they're not there as 01:18:31.378 --> 01:18:34.758 well, because, you know, it's, it's fairly easy to do in the co research 01:18:34.768 --> 01:18:36.008 space where we're working together. 01:18:36.068 --> 01:18:40.928 But sometimes I have to go and quite vigorously defend their position to 01:18:40.968 --> 01:18:43.648 people that are like more senior than me. 01:18:44.243 --> 01:18:47.533 You know, in a way that is quite challenging. 01:18:47.553 --> 01:18:48.663 And I think. 01:18:51.778 --> 01:18:54.408 Yeah, I, I don't think it's clean. 01:18:54.728 --> 01:18:56.278 It is a messy space. 01:18:56.358 --> 01:18:59.818 And I think the only way you can navigate that space is by being aware 01:18:59.818 --> 01:19:06.558 of that messiness and constantly really interrogating yourself and the way 01:19:06.558 --> 01:19:09.288 you're approaching things and your motivations and why you're doing things. 01:19:09.838 --> 01:19:15.438 I did a piece of reading by he Epstein, who is an autistic autism researcher, 01:19:15.878 --> 01:19:21.088 and she, I read her PhD and she talked about the role of researchers 01:19:21.088 --> 01:19:26.998 really reflecting on their own kind of assumptions and biases and, and what they 01:19:27.638 --> 01:19:30.398 you know, bring to the table and really. 01:19:30.758 --> 01:19:33.288 Being aware of those things so that you can challenge them, 01:19:33.288 --> 01:19:35.378 but it isn't it's not straightforward at all 01:19:35.998 --> 01:19:38.988 Rupert Isaacson: What what kind of resistance have you encountered from 01:19:39.008 --> 01:19:41.158 people more senior to yourself about? 01:19:42.198 --> 01:19:44.768 Letting people on the autism spectrum 01:19:47.178 --> 01:19:53.228 begin to consult govern dictate how therapeutic practice should go 01:19:53.728 --> 01:19:58.048 Alex Northover: It's not really resistance isn't the right word 01:19:58.118 --> 01:20:04.918 everybody's very Supportive and like committed to the process it's about 01:20:06.143 --> 01:20:15.723 Navigating the governance of research in a, in a field that is quite fluid. 01:20:16.883 --> 01:20:22.363 So when you're doing co design, the gold standard of co design 01:20:22.363 --> 01:20:30.623 is to have your service users contribute thoroughly, meaningfully, 01:20:30.793 --> 01:20:32.453 at every stage in the process. 01:20:32.533 --> 01:20:32.793 But that's. 01:20:33.898 --> 01:20:39.458 Practically quite difficult to do because you have to go through ethical clearances. 01:20:39.478 --> 01:20:44.258 You have to have a degree of things cemented in order to get 01:20:44.268 --> 01:20:46.528 the gold stamp, you know, to the. 01:20:47.263 --> 01:20:51.033 The green light, if you like, to go through and do the research, which 01:20:51.033 --> 01:20:54.733 is right, because it's important that people who are potentially vulnerable are 01:20:54.733 --> 01:21:01.723 protected and, you know, all of the kind of legal things done in the correct way. 01:21:02.073 --> 01:21:04.983 But those, I've sort of found that those things sit a little 01:21:04.983 --> 01:21:07.023 in contrast, and that has been, 01:21:10.333 --> 01:21:14.603 again, a tricky space to navigate, because I want to leave as much 01:21:16.043 --> 01:21:20.342 opportunity and as much openness and as much fluidity so that Co researchers 01:21:20.342 --> 01:21:22.492 can dictate what is happening, but also 01:21:26.312 --> 01:21:29.312 allowing the governance things to happen in a way that makes 01:21:29.312 --> 01:21:32.122 the projects meaningful and appropriate and safe for everybody. 01:21:34.342 --> 01:21:41.672 Rupert Isaacson: What are the, what are the autistic co designers telling you? 01:21:42.592 --> 01:21:46.112 What are the main takeaways you're getting at this stage in the study? 01:21:47.417 --> 01:21:52.177 Alex Northover: So the, the things that they identified as being kind of, 01:21:52.677 --> 01:21:58.937 meaningful to them were not the things that are generally measured in the 01:21:58.937 --> 01:22:01.087 scientific literature and in research. 01:22:01.137 --> 01:22:08.667 They were more based around wellbeing and that's not something that is 01:22:08.667 --> 01:22:11.642 generally used as an outcome measure, 01:22:11.912 --> 01:22:14.732 Rupert Isaacson: but other counterintuitive of wellbeing, very 01:22:14.802 --> 01:22:17.632 personal, subjective, each one to the other, or is there a pattern 01:22:17.792 --> 01:22:19.422 that you can discern across all, 01:22:19.472 --> 01:22:23.082 Alex Northover: Too soon to say, I would say so that the way that the research 01:22:23.082 --> 01:22:27.902 works is that there is There was , a series of focus groups with my co 01:22:27.902 --> 01:22:33.242 researchers, whereby we looked at their experience and , the things that they felt 01:22:33.242 --> 01:22:37.952 were important, we sort of talked together about and fed back on each other's 01:22:38.142 --> 01:22:42.242 ideas and kind of picked out key themes. 01:22:42.242 --> 01:22:43.992 That was the first phase of the research. 01:22:43.992 --> 01:22:46.852 The second phase of the research is to take that to a wider audience and 01:22:46.852 --> 01:22:49.892 see if there's agreement and what. 01:22:50.582 --> 01:22:53.362 Where the priorities lie in a larger population. 01:22:53.492 --> 01:22:57.272 So come back this time next year and I'll be able to tell you. 01:22:58.062 --> 01:22:59.662 Rupert Isaacson: Give us , a little bit of some trends. 01:22:59.662 --> 01:23:08.982 If you're a practitioner, what have you learned since the beginning of 01:23:08.982 --> 01:23:17.062 your study that you could say has positively affected your own practice? 01:23:17.562 --> 01:23:22.362 Alex Northover: I think recognizing that there is, it's a an ebb and flow 01:23:22.652 --> 01:23:26.502 between the person who is coming, the person who is providing, and the horse. 01:23:26.572 --> 01:23:32.162 And I think that movement between the three sort of agencies that 01:23:32.172 --> 01:23:34.922 are involved in the session is really, really meaningful. 01:23:35.302 --> 01:23:41.682 And I think watching watching somebody work with a horse, is revealing 01:23:41.682 --> 01:23:46.182 for the service user as well as it is for the service provider. 01:23:46.532 --> 01:23:50.562 So in the same way that somebody in a traditional model might be watching how 01:23:50.562 --> 01:23:55.872 people interact with the horse to gauge their kind of emotional state, I think 01:23:55.922 --> 01:23:57.912 that is happening the other way as well. 01:23:58.222 --> 01:24:04.202 And I think you can tell a lot by a person by how they interact with animals and 01:24:04.202 --> 01:24:08.272 how they manage challenge and whether or not they get stressed or, you know, 01:24:08.272 --> 01:24:13.037 if they're authentic, if they're If the what they're saying matches up with 01:24:13.037 --> 01:24:16.757 how they're presenting, that HOST is a great diagnostic tools and I think that 01:24:16.757 --> 01:24:20.897 works the other way as it does for the the practitioner watching the client. 01:24:20.927 --> 01:24:23.377 I think it also works for the client watching the practitioner too. 01:24:24.332 --> 01:24:29.022 Rupert Isaacson: Are we talking about the importance of being able to recognize 01:24:29.782 --> 01:24:33.942 symbiosis and what symbiosis is and all the nuances around symbiosis? 01:24:33.942 --> 01:24:34.612 Because you're talking about 01:24:35.682 --> 01:24:36.442 Alex Northover: Yeah, I think so. 01:24:37.532 --> 01:24:38.252 That's tough. 01:24:38.252 --> 01:24:40.332 It's a tough thing to answer 01:24:40.612 --> 01:24:44.502 I think we have to be careful When you're drawing generalizations to do 01:24:44.502 --> 01:24:48.162 it in such a way that doesn't make everybody a monolith because every type 01:24:48.162 --> 01:24:52.222 of like a question assisted support comes from a slightly different place 01:24:52.242 --> 01:24:53.582 has a slightly different background. 01:24:53.602 --> 01:24:55.342 Each practitioner is a different person. 01:24:55.342 --> 01:24:57.572 Each horse is a different being. 01:24:57.882 --> 01:25:00.892 Each client has a different set of needs and desires. 01:25:00.952 --> 01:25:03.962 And it's about how do we tease out the things that are. 01:25:04.272 --> 01:25:09.662 uniform across practice and uniform across a service user group in a way 01:25:09.662 --> 01:25:15.112 that doesn't diminish or dehumanize or make things too much of a generality. 01:25:15.652 --> 01:25:20.232 Because you know there is commonality, but there are also a lot of differences 01:25:20.262 --> 01:25:25.892 and we need to kind of, agree as you know a practitioner community 01:25:25.892 --> 01:25:31.052 about what we are providing for our service users And what the service 01:25:31.052 --> 01:25:32.852 users feel is important for them. 01:25:33.752 --> 01:25:37.922 Rupert Isaacson: You're at the cutting edge of moving stuff forward to the 01:25:37.922 --> 01:25:41.762 next phase because I think where you differ from me is that I'm a 01:25:41.762 --> 01:25:48.577 practitioner, you know, and I'm a, I'm a comer up wither of the world. 01:25:48.967 --> 01:25:52.397 methodology perhaps, but you're a measurer. 01:25:52.397 --> 01:25:53.677 You're also a practitioner. 01:25:53.697 --> 01:25:55.207 You're also innovative. 01:25:55.207 --> 01:25:57.507 You're also running everything, but you're also measuring. 01:25:58.677 --> 01:26:06.177 So when you measure, you allow the growth of the field because people have 01:26:06.177 --> 01:26:08.727 something against which they can measure. 01:26:08.728 --> 01:26:09.597 Do you see what I'm saying? 01:26:09.957 --> 01:26:12.017 And so it's very, very necessary work. 01:26:12.018 --> 01:26:16.238 I think, every single person who's listening to this podcast 01:26:16.238 --> 01:26:20.638 who's got an Equine Assisted thing is, is waiting to hear, what can 01:26:20.638 --> 01:26:25.028 I do to make what I do better? 01:26:25.668 --> 01:26:26.298 Alex Northover: By 01:26:26.298 --> 01:26:30.408 engaging your service users in such a way as they co design your service. 01:26:30.498 --> 01:26:32.838 So if you are co designing. 01:26:33.838 --> 01:26:38.428 is the gold standard for patient care in medical fields. 01:26:38.508 --> 01:26:43.398 It's expected if you're doing any kind of medical research that, or, you know, any 01:26:43.398 --> 01:26:48.918 kind of designing of delivery of service that you do recruit and engage your 01:26:49.168 --> 01:26:54.598 service users, because they are, you know, the people who need to be able to engage 01:26:54.598 --> 01:26:56.078 with the model, whatever it happens to be. 01:26:56.448 --> 01:26:59.758 So ask, ask the people you're working with what they want 01:26:59.768 --> 01:27:01.138 to get out of this experience. 01:27:02.258 --> 01:27:06.158 And keep checking in, seek out the mentorship of people who have been 01:27:06.158 --> 01:27:11.628 through similar projects, programs, what they found useful, what 01:27:11.628 --> 01:27:14.768 they didn't like, speak to them. 01:27:14.878 --> 01:27:19.777 So always go back to that perspective because anything any service in 01:27:19.778 --> 01:27:23.608 order to be meaningful has to produce a change in the service user. 01:27:23.868 --> 01:27:28.218 It has to, be impactful in that person's life in a productive way. 01:27:28.558 --> 01:27:34.158 So if you go back and speak to those people and, you know, really embrace their 01:27:34.198 --> 01:27:38.008 input into every aspect of your service. 01:27:38.018 --> 01:27:44.568 So if you're going to send out paperwork for somebody who is autistic or has a 01:27:44.568 --> 01:27:50.808 learning difficulty or you know, some kind of cognitive difference, have source 01:27:50.828 --> 01:27:54.608 people who have those needs and ask them to proofread your intake sheets. 01:27:55.978 --> 01:27:59.108 Ask them to look at your website, ask people with dyslexia if they 01:27:59.108 --> 01:28:00.598 can read the font on your website. 01:28:00.638 --> 01:28:06.168 Like engage, engage your service users and that is the route to meaningful provision. 01:28:07.988 --> 01:28:10.798 Rupert Isaacson: Get mentorship from the very people that you provide service for. 01:28:11.338 --> 01:28:11.578 Alex Northover: Yes. 01:28:13.228 --> 01:28:14.518 Yeah, make no assumptions. 01:28:15.058 --> 01:28:16.538 Rupert Isaacson: That makes perfect sense to me. 01:28:16.538 --> 01:28:23.568 What's interesting is that that's not the norm, but I do think that with studies 01:28:23.568 --> 01:28:29.548 like yours it can help to become the norm because there are lots of very, 01:28:29.548 --> 01:28:32.598 very good practitioners out there who are doing exactly what you just said. 01:28:34.848 --> 01:28:39.238 And at the same time, perhaps they're facing some opposition 01:28:39.238 --> 01:28:44.278 on this, whether it's societal, whether it's academic, whether it's 01:28:44.318 --> 01:28:46.358 authoritative, you know, local. 01:28:46.923 --> 01:28:50.283 authority saying, you know, no, it's got to be a top down thing. 01:28:51.153 --> 01:28:55.763 And also one has to be able to dance the dance where you can talk in a 01:28:55.763 --> 01:28:59.003 way that makes it sound like it's sufficiently top down that they'll 01:28:59.003 --> 01:29:00.363 fund you because that's still 01:29:02.063 --> 01:29:03.973 Often want to hear. 01:29:04.613 --> 01:29:07.793 In particularly, you know, I know this is true in the U. 01:29:07.793 --> 01:29:08.083 S. 01:29:08.093 --> 01:29:08.713 for example. 01:29:09.263 --> 01:29:14.213 While at the same time, absolutely doing what you're, you're saying to 01:29:14.213 --> 01:29:16.583 do, which leads me to the next thing. 01:29:17.833 --> 01:29:21.473 You are now an authority on this Alex. 01:29:21.793 --> 01:29:24.433 And how can people come and learn from you? 01:29:24.923 --> 01:29:32.093 If I had been starting out now, and I was listening to this podcast, I 01:29:32.103 --> 01:29:35.483 think, Shit, you know, I, I, I want to learn from this Alex person. 01:29:35.983 --> 01:29:39.823 I want this Alex person to show me how to set up my thing. 01:29:39.823 --> 01:29:40.723 I want to consult with her. 01:29:41.233 --> 01:29:41.983 I want to learn from her. 01:29:41.983 --> 01:29:42.753 I want to be trained by her. 01:29:42.753 --> 01:29:43.743 I want to be mentored by her. 01:29:43.743 --> 01:29:45.563 Are you offering that? 01:29:45.663 --> 01:29:47.783 can people contact you? 01:29:47.933 --> 01:29:49.193 How would that work? 01:29:49.233 --> 01:29:49.843 Do you train? 01:29:49.863 --> 01:29:50.783 What, what do you do? 01:29:50.963 --> 01:29:54.883 Alex Northover: Yeah, very, very happy to keep the conversation going. 01:29:55.323 --> 01:29:57.387 So yeah, people are very welcome to contact me. 01:29:57.998 --> 01:30:01.728 Contact me and, and, you know, or come and we deliver training. 01:30:01.728 --> 01:30:05.078 So, obviously, we do the movement method and the horseboy method 01:30:05.118 --> 01:30:09.178 and the TI provision training I deliver training in schools. 01:30:09.228 --> 01:30:12.498 But, you know, if you have specific questions, you're very welcome to, I 01:30:12.498 --> 01:30:13.978 will always do my best to answer them. 01:30:14.448 --> 01:30:16.518 Or if I can't answer them, I can usually. 01:30:17.038 --> 01:30:20.308 Direct you to somebody who can but I think that, you know, this is obviously 01:30:20.308 --> 01:30:27.168 international finding, finding a mentor for you, who is familiar with 01:30:28.108 --> 01:30:32.048 how things work in your country of delivery or your state of delivery is 01:30:32.048 --> 01:30:36.598 also really important because there are nuances and differences to do with you 01:30:36.598 --> 01:30:40.578 know, policy and geographical location and all of those types of things. 01:30:40.588 --> 01:30:45.308 So, you know, some things are general and applicable anywhere, but some 01:30:45.308 --> 01:30:47.978 things you need specific local understanding and knowledge as well. 01:30:49.658 --> 01:30:55.738 Rupert Isaacson: Where do you want to see your practice go in the foreseeable? 01:30:55.818 --> 01:30:57.418 Let's go five years, 10 years. 01:30:57.418 --> 01:30:58.698 And where do you want to see the field go? 01:30:59.448 --> 01:31:02.098 Alex Northover: I think I, anybody who is in this space. 01:31:02.608 --> 01:31:05.448 can see that there is kind of a collective understanding of the fact 01:31:05.588 --> 01:31:12.408 that we need to, as a, a field produce some clarity of understanding about 01:31:12.408 --> 01:31:13.928 what it is that everybody offers. 01:31:14.168 --> 01:31:20.318 So, you know, I, I don't describe what we offer as an equine therapy 01:31:20.318 --> 01:31:21.618 because I am not a therapist. 01:31:22.273 --> 01:31:25.593 And, you know, I think it's right and important that we're clear on 01:31:25.593 --> 01:31:28.706 our language and create a clear set of shared understanding. 01:31:28.706 --> 01:31:29.013 Right, and 01:31:29.013 --> 01:31:30.733 Rupert Isaacson: something could be therapeutic without being a therapy. 01:31:30.743 --> 01:31:31.523 Alex Northover: Being a therapy. 01:31:31.523 --> 01:31:32.333 Yeah, absolutely. 01:31:32.603 --> 01:31:37.463 And so, you know, having that, but making sure that people understand that 01:31:37.693 --> 01:31:41.263 and having that shared understanding about what it is that we are able to 01:31:41.303 --> 01:31:45.783 deliver, what it is that we are providing and what they can expect from us. 01:31:46.303 --> 01:31:50.343 And I think that is something that I see reflected within the field the 01:31:50.343 --> 01:31:56.893 larger field and kind of an increasing formalization of what is equine assisted 01:31:56.893 --> 01:32:02.253 therapy, what is equine facilitated learning, what are the sort of qualities 01:32:02.953 --> 01:32:08.123 qualifications and you know, methodologies behind those services, but I think 01:32:08.833 --> 01:32:13.723 there should also be a space for there is so much good work happening from 01:32:13.723 --> 01:32:17.183 so many different kind of approaches. 01:32:17.193 --> 01:32:18.993 So many different backgrounds. 01:32:19.073 --> 01:32:23.573 So many different, methodologies, I think, finding a way where we can formalize 01:32:23.583 --> 01:32:28.923 stuff without stifling that creativity and without that, without removing 01:32:29.213 --> 01:32:33.063 people's capacity to have innovation and be unique, I think is really important. 01:32:33.563 --> 01:32:40.233 Because there are, there is such huge diverse needs for so many different 01:32:40.243 --> 01:32:44.813 reasons that it is right and proper that services don't all do the same thing. 01:32:45.253 --> 01:32:45.713 Because. 01:32:46.643 --> 01:32:51.513 What people find from each individual service is, is different. 01:32:51.553 --> 01:32:54.333 What people take from each individual service is different. 01:32:54.793 --> 01:33:00.373 And if we over formalize and make it formulaic, I think 01:33:00.383 --> 01:33:02.483 some of that, that is lost. 01:33:03.493 --> 01:33:08.003 Rupert Isaacson: Do you think that every equine assisted place, gig, practice 01:33:08.533 --> 01:33:11.183 should do a number of methodologies? 01:33:12.953 --> 01:33:18.853 Not just, not just horseplay or regala or Do you think there should, as much 01:33:18.853 --> 01:33:20.463 as possible, be a cross fertilization? 01:33:22.303 --> 01:33:26.433 Alex Northover: I think we should develop uniformity in terms of the, there needs to 01:33:26.443 --> 01:33:31.633 be some things that we're all doing with regards to safeguarding health and safety, 01:33:31.643 --> 01:33:35.443 you know, that, that making sure that clients are comfortable and safe within 01:33:35.443 --> 01:33:37.473 a space and, and meeting those needs. 01:33:37.733 --> 01:33:41.303 I think there's also things that we should all be doing around animal equine 01:33:41.313 --> 01:33:45.443 welfare and well being and honoring horses as our partners in this endeavor 01:33:45.443 --> 01:33:47.079 that are really, really important. 01:33:47.129 --> 01:33:52.539 But I think that Everybody who comes into these fields comes with their own passion 01:33:52.599 --> 01:33:56.099 and purpose, and it's important that they sense that and honor that because those 01:33:56.099 --> 01:33:57.589 are the things that they do really well. 01:33:58.099 --> 01:34:03.169 And that is what gives longevity and spark to your provision. 01:34:03.179 --> 01:34:08.189 So if you are super, super passionate about one modality, or if you are super 01:34:08.239 --> 01:34:13.269 passionate about groundwork, or, you know, observing the horses in a natural 01:34:13.269 --> 01:34:18.009 space, or, producing, you know, doing written work, mounted work, whatever it 01:34:18.019 --> 01:34:21.349 is, everybody's got, you know, liberty training, whatever it is that you're 01:34:21.349 --> 01:34:24.939 doing should be the thing that feeds your soul as well, because that's what 01:34:24.979 --> 01:34:27.309 allows you to provide service for others. 01:34:28.459 --> 01:34:34.079 Rupert Isaacson: Most young people that might need to access your service. 01:34:35.689 --> 01:34:39.439 A service like yours don't live where you are. 01:34:39.439 --> 01:34:40.669 They don't live in the country. 01:34:41.259 --> 01:34:43.289 They don't have access to horses, animals, nature 01:34:44.109 --> 01:34:44.919 in your perfect world. 01:34:46.199 --> 01:34:50.019 How do you begin to answer that need? 01:34:50.019 --> 01:34:57.289 You're not far from Manchester, but Manchester is a big amorphous, 01:34:57.729 --> 01:35:01.359 scary conurbation with areas that. 01:35:02.594 --> 01:35:06.164 people, they're not going to see horses in nature and stuff. 01:35:07.464 --> 01:35:10.034 And those are probably where the young people are with the greatest need. 01:35:11.084 --> 01:35:16.924 In your perfect world, how would you have those people, those young people from 01:35:16.934 --> 01:35:19.904 those places, access services like yours? 01:35:19.914 --> 01:35:19.924 I 01:35:21.304 --> 01:35:23.284 Alex Northover: think it's about dissemination of knowledge. 01:35:23.314 --> 01:35:27.814 So, I think there is definitely an understanding that there is need. 01:35:27.904 --> 01:35:35.744 There is definitely a awareness that we need to meet need, Then schools and 01:35:35.744 --> 01:35:39.254 practitioners maybe don't know where to go with that, don't know how to address it. 01:35:39.284 --> 01:35:43.204 So I think making training sort of more widely available so that some of 01:35:43.214 --> 01:35:48.334 these approaches and techniques can be applied in more mainstream or urban 01:35:48.334 --> 01:35:51.974 settings, bringing that ethos into those places, I think would be really useful. 01:35:51.974 --> 01:35:52.734 Does that mean putting 01:35:52.734 --> 01:35:54.864 Rupert Isaacson: your horses in a trailer and taking them into a school? 01:35:55.264 --> 01:36:00.114 Or does that mean training people in those schools to have nature? 01:36:00.724 --> 01:36:03.284 and interaction with nature, even in within a classroom or 01:36:03.284 --> 01:36:04.194 so like, what does that mean? 01:36:04.864 --> 01:36:05.834 Alex Northover: I think the latter. 01:36:05.884 --> 01:36:09.164 So, you know, as much as it is lovely to be able to drop in 01:36:09.164 --> 01:36:10.734 and provide that experience. 01:36:10.744 --> 01:36:12.244 And I think that is very meaningful. 01:36:12.634 --> 01:36:16.504 The, the thing that has the biggest impact is the small day to day changes. 01:36:16.994 --> 01:36:24.934 So if, if everybody could introduce some aspects of allowing for regulatory 01:36:24.934 --> 01:36:29.594 movement and removing negative sensory triggers and loading up positive sensitive 01:36:29.914 --> 01:36:35.694 triggers into their spaces, those small the cumulative effect of those 01:36:35.694 --> 01:36:40.524 many small changes would be absolutely enormous for so many young people. 01:36:40.524 --> 01:36:44.634 Well, every young person that moves through that space and I think that is 01:36:44.674 --> 01:36:51.469 the The most meaningful thing we could do at this time is to share that knowledge 01:36:51.469 --> 01:36:58.549 and furnish people from outside of this field with those tools and that skill set. 01:36:59.584 --> 01:37:01.874 Rupert Isaacson: That sounds like basically bringing nature into schools. 01:37:01.904 --> 01:37:03.274 Why is nature so important? 01:37:03.824 --> 01:37:07.464 Alex Northover: So it is the environment we are evolved to be in 01:37:07.634 --> 01:37:13.994 we weren't evolved to be in concrete cubes with artificial lighting and 01:37:14.054 --> 01:37:15.744 you know, the the more in front 01:37:15.774 --> 01:37:18.409 Rupert Isaacson: of a computer actually, I think I was born 01:37:18.409 --> 01:37:25.259 Alex Northover: Yeah, the more the more that you can allow young people and 01:37:25.269 --> 01:37:27.329 not just young people, staff as well. 01:37:27.479 --> 01:37:31.469 You know, the more time you can spend in an environment that meets 01:37:31.469 --> 01:37:34.889 your sensory needs and allows for regulation, the better you will do. 01:37:34.909 --> 01:37:40.239 The more accessible learning is, the more you are in that you know, calm 01:37:40.809 --> 01:37:45.749 regulated learning space that allows you to accumulate knowledge or memory. 01:37:46.269 --> 01:37:49.589 Access executive functioning and emotional regulation and all of that. 01:37:49.709 --> 01:37:54.339 All of those things that we need in order to be not only successful academic 01:37:54.339 --> 01:37:57.709 learners, but you know, human beings. 01:37:58.689 --> 01:37:59.619 Rupert Isaacson: We're organisms. 01:38:00.209 --> 01:38:01.679 We're designed for planet Earth. 01:38:01.879 --> 01:38:06.909 And a lot of the time we're living in some artificialized version of 01:38:06.909 --> 01:38:10.509 planet Earth, which causes us stress and makes our brains go squiffy. 01:38:10.689 --> 01:38:11.099 Got it. 01:38:11.099 --> 01:38:12.379 Here's my final question. 01:38:13.389 --> 01:38:19.724 You've got a parent, you've got a teacher, and they brought their young 01:38:19.724 --> 01:38:22.584 person or people out to your place. 01:38:23.474 --> 01:38:30.224 And now you're going to send them home or back to the classroom with some tips 01:38:30.984 --> 01:38:37.494 on how to keep going the good things that they find it yours at theirs. 01:38:38.634 --> 01:38:44.134 Break me down like three, five, whatever, what would be 01:38:44.134 --> 01:38:45.344 the things that you would say? 01:38:46.304 --> 01:38:49.984 If you do these things, you're going to continue to see positive outcomes. 01:38:50.194 --> 01:38:52.334 And if you don't do them, you kind of won't. 01:38:53.614 --> 01:38:57.814 Alex Northover: I think keeping in mind the shared endeavor, the 01:38:57.814 --> 01:39:00.174 purpose of what you're doing. 01:39:00.174 --> 01:39:03.634 So the purpose of what we're doing within the education system 01:39:03.654 --> 01:39:07.154 is , allowing people, young people to go on to the next step successfully. 01:39:07.564 --> 01:39:12.914 Now, while the acquisition of academic success is important to that, if it comes 01:39:12.914 --> 01:39:18.354 at the cost of the individual's well being and functioning capacity, it doesn't 01:39:18.354 --> 01:39:22.714 matter how many A levels you've got if you can't, if you've become so shut down 01:39:22.714 --> 01:39:23.814 that you're unable to leave your home. 01:39:24.629 --> 01:39:28.669 Like that, that becomes a meaningless pursuit. 01:39:28.719 --> 01:39:32.239 So I think shifting the focus back onto the purpose of 01:39:32.239 --> 01:39:34.479 education, which is producing. 01:39:35.294 --> 01:39:41.544 you know, a functioning, well adjusted, comfortable, happy member of society. 01:39:41.674 --> 01:39:43.574 That's, that's what you're there for. 01:39:43.744 --> 01:39:48.054 And, and recognizing that that can look like a lot of different things. 01:39:49.024 --> 01:39:56.506 So allowing for individual passions and strengths and approaches to 01:39:56.506 --> 01:40:02.388 working and problem solving and all of those things to be equally respected 01:40:02.388 --> 01:40:04.688 and regarded is really important. 01:40:05.168 --> 01:40:08.518 Rupert Isaacson: That problem solving thing sounds like BDNF to me, which is, 01:40:08.578 --> 01:40:10.518 yeah, brain derived neurotrophic factor. 01:40:10.528 --> 01:40:10.788 Yeah, neuroplasticity. 01:40:10.788 --> 01:40:11.643 Alex Northover: Yeah, 01:40:11.643 --> 01:40:16.198 Rupert Isaacson: right neuroplasticity So the parent goes away and you say 01:40:16.588 --> 01:40:19.418 do these three things and you'll get neuroplasticity in your house 01:40:19.948 --> 01:40:20.438 Alex Northover: What 01:40:20.438 --> 01:40:20.728 Rupert Isaacson: are they? 01:40:21.998 --> 01:40:23.348 Alex Northover: Move movement. 01:40:23.578 --> 01:40:29.878 So allow for everything to be experiential hands on real world learning. 01:40:29.878 --> 01:40:32.788 You can deliver any academic content through experiential 01:40:32.808 --> 01:40:34.188 hands on real world learning. 01:40:34.188 --> 01:40:39.008 If you want them to learn about pivots, moments, build a trebuchet. 01:40:39.388 --> 01:40:43.628 And while you're doing that, you can talk about concentric castles and sieges. 01:40:43.658 --> 01:40:45.848 So you can do history and physics in one go. 01:40:46.468 --> 01:40:49.188 And also think, reflect back onto the stuff that was 01:40:49.198 --> 01:40:50.688 meaningful for you as a learner. 01:40:52.038 --> 01:40:56.138 If you really think about it, and stuff that stuck, and what inspired 01:40:56.168 --> 01:41:00.138 passion in you, whatever those passions were, what did that look like for 01:41:00.138 --> 01:41:05.168 you, and, and how can you reproduce those experiences for your child 01:41:05.168 --> 01:41:06.488 or the young people you work with? 01:41:07.908 --> 01:41:08.848 Rupert Isaacson: I'm going to play devil's advocate. 01:41:09.368 --> 01:41:12.958 I can't even think about that Alex, because my kid's just going nuts at 01:41:12.958 --> 01:41:16.098 home, and I just want to medicate him because it'll make life easier for me. 01:41:16.768 --> 01:41:20.208 And they're just exploding all over the house, wrecking the furniture. 01:41:20.818 --> 01:41:21.398 What do I do? 01:41:22.698 --> 01:41:25.348 Alex Northover: I think medication is really important for a lot 01:41:25.348 --> 01:41:26.728 of people for a lot of reasons. 01:41:26.928 --> 01:41:31.628 I think that it can be really life changing, but it shouldn't be your first 01:41:31.638 --> 01:41:36.218 port of call and it certainly shouldn't be the only solution to somebody's struggles. 01:41:37.358 --> 01:41:39.738 So, if you, if your child But what am I going 01:41:39.738 --> 01:41:40.198 Rupert Isaacson: to do then? 01:41:40.748 --> 01:41:43.578 Kids going, bananas and nuts, what am I, what am I going to do? 01:41:44.068 --> 01:41:45.288 Alex Northover: Get them outside. 01:41:45.638 --> 01:41:49.148 . Rupert Isaacson: So the parent says, I can't go outside. 01:41:49.198 --> 01:41:53.608 I don't want to go outside for bazillion reasons. 01:41:53.708 --> 01:41:57.258 I'm in lockdown and the kid's going crazy. 01:41:57.488 --> 01:42:00.888 And what can I do? 01:42:01.588 --> 01:42:05.958 . Alex Northover: At that point, the child is communicating a need and their primary 01:42:05.958 --> 01:42:08.188 need in that moment is sensory input. 01:42:08.398 --> 01:42:11.103 So if your child is It's going wild. 01:42:11.103 --> 01:42:12.913 You need to meet that demand. 01:42:12.923 --> 01:42:19.033 You need to meet that sensory need in whatever way that child is asking for. 01:42:19.343 --> 01:42:24.453 So that might be that you provide movement opportunities like trampolines or indoor 01:42:24.453 --> 01:42:28.523 swings or peanut balls or climbing 01:42:28.583 --> 01:42:29.553 Rupert Isaacson: frame from the wall or something. 01:42:30.328 --> 01:42:31.728 Alex Northover: All of those types of things. 01:42:31.818 --> 01:42:36.418 So in that moment, in that headspace the primary need is 01:42:36.638 --> 01:42:37.978 connection of the brain and body. 01:42:37.978 --> 01:42:40.818 So you have to meet that need first before you can do anything else. 01:42:40.848 --> 01:42:46.698 At that point, the child is not open to rationalization or a conversation 01:42:46.718 --> 01:42:49.533 or a punishment or reward or anything. 01:42:49.533 --> 01:42:52.344 They're completely driven by that sensory input need. 01:42:52.344 --> 01:42:53.968 So meet that first. 01:42:54.368 --> 01:42:56.188 and then everything else comes second. 01:42:56.688 --> 01:42:59.488 Rupert Isaacson: So let them move, let them move, figure 01:42:59.488 --> 01:43:00.578 out ways to let them move. 01:43:01.308 --> 01:43:01.638 Alex Northover: Yes. 01:43:01.718 --> 01:43:07.008 And then that, that buildup of energy tension will dissipate and then you will 01:43:07.008 --> 01:43:14.988 have the BDNF and the brain space that allows the, the access to the other, 01:43:15.658 --> 01:43:17.438 you know, rational parts of the brain. 01:43:17.808 --> 01:43:22.198 And if you try and approach that first you will struggle. 01:43:22.613 --> 01:43:26.893 Because even if the child really wants to comply and sit still 01:43:26.893 --> 01:43:29.213 and take it in, they'll only be concentrating on sitting still. 01:43:29.213 --> 01:43:31.783 They won't actually be receiving whatever information it is that 01:43:31.783 --> 01:43:32.843 you're trying to give them. 01:43:33.273 --> 01:43:36.473 Need to be able to re regulate it in a regulated space first. 01:43:36.793 --> 01:43:38.363 So move, move, move, move. 01:43:39.023 --> 01:43:39.683 Rupert Isaacson: Move, move, move. 01:43:39.683 --> 01:43:40.053 Love it. 01:43:41.733 --> 01:43:45.643 Okay, Alex, thank you so much for coming on Equine Assisted World. 01:43:46.023 --> 01:43:51.178 Before we go, Please tell people how they can reach you, websites, emails, etc. 01:43:51.918 --> 01:43:54.918 Alex Northover: Okay, so you can use our work email, which 01:43:54.918 --> 01:43:56.258 is makingmomentumatoutlook. 01:43:57.728 --> 01:43:58.038 com 01:44:01.848 --> 01:44:01.998 makingmomentumatoutlook. 01:44:01.998 --> 01:44:07.388 com And yeah, feel free to contact us through that or through, if 01:44:07.418 --> 01:44:08.918 you search for makingmomentum. 01:44:08.918 --> 01:44:14.223 com Cheshire, you will find our Facebook and Instagram social media pages. 01:44:14.223 --> 01:44:14.913 You can Making 01:44:14.913 --> 01:44:16.353 Rupert Isaacson: momentum Cheshire. 01:44:16.763 --> 01:44:17.123 Alex Northover: Yes. 01:44:17.123 --> 01:44:19.613 If you search that, it'll come up and you'll see you'll, 01:44:19.613 --> 01:44:20.723 you'll see where we are. 01:44:20.823 --> 01:44:24.263 Rupert Isaacson: Listen, Alex, thank you so much for coming on. 01:44:24.277 --> 01:44:25.357 You're a master of the arts. 01:44:25.967 --> 01:44:27.497 It's an honor to have you on. 01:44:28.217 --> 01:44:29.547 Alex Northover: Well, thank you very much for having me.. 01:44:29.825 --> 01:44:30.935 Rupert Isaacson: thank you for joining us. 01:44:30.965 --> 01:44:32.795 We hope you enjoyed today's podcast. 01:44:33.034 --> 01:44:38.074 Join our website, new trails learning.com, to check out our online 01:44:38.074 --> 01:44:43.264 courses and live workshops in Horse Boy Method, movement Method, and Athena. 01:44:43.971 --> 01:44:48.620 These evidence-based programs have helped children, veterans, and people 01:44:48.620 --> 01:44:50.630 dealing with trauma around the world. 01:44:50.957 --> 01:44:54.707 We also offer a horse training program and self-care program 01:44:54.707 --> 01:44:57.947 for riders on long ride home.com. 01:44:58.245 --> 01:45:02.295 These include easy to do online courses and tutorials that 01:45:02.295 --> 01:45:04.215 bring you and your horse joy. 01:45:04.752 --> 01:45:09.312 For an overview of all shows and programs, go to rupert isaacson.com. 01:45:09.642 --> 01:45:10.572 See you on the next show. 01:45:10.984 --> 01:45:13.674 And please remember to press, subscribe and share.