WEBVTT 00:00:04.474 --> 00:00:10.397 Welcome to the Uncut Podcast. I'm Pastor Luke. I am Pastor Cameron. 00:00:10.657 --> 00:00:15.977 And this is the Uncut Podcast, where we have uncut conversations about faith, life, ministry, 00:00:16.078 --> 00:00:17.365 and all of the above. 00:00:18.166 --> 00:00:23.171 Cameron, how are you doing today? I'm doing okay. 00:00:23.720 --> 00:00:31.543 Yeah? Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Sometimes I re-listen to either portions of the, 00:00:33.697 --> 00:00:38.754 I usually re-listen to portions of our podcast. And I went back and I told myself, 00:00:39.937 --> 00:00:47.097 Cameron, you need to talk more directly into the mic because you're too quiet on the podcast. 00:00:48.097 --> 00:00:54.417 So I'm gonna try and lean into the mic a little bit today so you can hear me. 00:00:54.417 --> 00:01:00.737 And, you know, and, and, you know, the thing that's been surprised, that surprised me is like, I'll look back and I'll 00:01:00.737 --> 00:01:09.377 see the video and you're like, Oh, and I'm actually pretty impressed with how well the audio does come through. It does. 00:01:09.777 --> 00:01:16.257 Yeah. Cause if you're listening, Cameron often puts a good, like two, three feet between himself and the microphone sometimes. 00:01:16.257 --> 00:01:24.198 So I like to lean back and relax and try and enjoy the conversation, but I have to realize that, you know, there's 00:01:24.351 --> 00:01:27.697 people that need to hear what we're saying, or they're not going to listen if they can't hear. 00:01:28.737 --> 00:01:36.577 Um, but also I think this is like, this should be episode 16. Yeah. Yep. I think like what the, 00:01:36.577 --> 00:01:43.937 I think the average podcast lasts about seven episodes before it kind of Peters out. So we're 00:01:43.937 --> 00:01:49.944 twice as long as the average, I think so. Plus some. Yeah. So, okay. I think we've, 00:01:50.187 --> 00:01:54.017 you know, if a podcast is going to make it needs to make it pass like 10 episodes. 00:01:54.017 --> 00:02:05.817 I mean, I suppose it's, you know, if, if the podcast, the longevity of a podcast was based apart how many... 00:02:05.059 --> 00:02:11.149 Listeners or viewers there was, maybe we wouldn't survive, but I don't know what our, even what our 00:02:11.149 --> 00:02:17.563 average viewership or listenership is right now. Well, actually, I think it's fairly, I think we're 00:02:17.789 --> 00:02:23.709 maybe somewhere around half of what we get for the sermons that we send out, which I feel like 00:02:23.709 --> 00:02:30.429 is fairly competitive. Okay. For, you know, considering that we've been putting out sermon 00:02:30.429 --> 00:02:35.629 messages through podcast and YouTube and stuff like that for a long time. And that's got a pretty wide. 00:02:36.432 --> 00:02:43.309 Viewership. And we've, we haven't done significant advertising or even promotion of this podcast. 00:02:43.309 --> 00:02:48.027 Don't, don't think we've done a single like in person Sunday morning announcement about this. 00:02:48.269 --> 00:02:53.469 So people are finding out about it through just word of mouth. 00:02:53.469 --> 00:02:56.509 Maybe we should do that. Maybe we should plug it on socials at some point. 00:02:56.624 --> 00:02:58.989 Yeah, maybe we did plug it on socials in the very beginning. 00:02:58.989 --> 00:03:03.214 In the very beginning, yeah. But we haven't done like, you know, a lot with it. 00:03:04.309 --> 00:03:08.210 I guess one way, okay, help us listeners. Oh yeah, listeners. 00:03:08.309 --> 00:03:12.513 And viewers, help us by commenting or rating. 00:03:15.439 --> 00:03:20.909 Depending on where you're listening or watching, just comment or rate so that we know 00:03:20.909 --> 00:03:26.241 that there's still some engagement or we can see the engagement a little bit more. 00:03:27.889 --> 00:03:35.749 Yeah. that would be helpful and encouraging. Yeah. Well, you know, one of the things that I think pastors probably have a bit of a leg up 00:03:35.749 --> 00:03:40.549 on most people who try and do a podcast for the first time, because we're already used to doing, 00:03:41.257 --> 00:03:49.485 sort of very weekly talks, like and in having to deliver kind of without fail. Yeah, you know, 00:03:50.764 --> 00:03:54.309 you don't want to come to a church where the pastor is like, Hey, guys, it was a really busy 00:03:54.309 --> 00:04:01.709 week. And I just, I just decided I couldn't get it done today. So like, we're just going to sing some more songs. Like, right. 00:04:03.149 --> 00:04:06.509 Nobody comes back to that. No, no, nor should they. 00:04:08.480 --> 00:04:11.784 So, you know, I think we've got a leg up on, you know, we're, 00:04:11.955 --> 00:04:16.195 we've already got a bit of a rhythm of doing things like that. Right. I think that helps. 00:04:16.546 --> 00:04:29.029 Yeah. And I was, you know, speaking on the future of the podcasts and topics and all of that, I was talking with a friend who's a pastor in Erie. 00:04:29.029 --> 00:04:46.029 And their particular church is an Assemblies of God church, and we were talking about a 00:04:46.029 --> 00:04:48.269 or an issue that they were having 00:04:48.269 --> 00:04:54.410 in the midst of their worship service and how I would go about addressing it and dealing with it. 00:04:54.989 --> 00:05:03.160 And it got into a pretty good conversation a pretty good conversation about worship. 00:05:04.357 --> 00:05:14.206 Philosophy and Like the orderliness of worship. Yeah, and the theology of the orderliness of worship versus. 00:05:16.177 --> 00:05:24.967 Yeah, or and or like We've talked about this before and I know we we have it kind of on deck for a conversation at some point about, 00:05:26.607 --> 00:05:34.047 Spontaneous worship. Yeah, I'm like, knowing that you're talking about an assemblies of God church, 00:05:34.047 --> 00:05:38.927 and I'm like, all right, there's a handful of things I can imagine that might be happening. 00:05:39.835 --> 00:05:43.562 Yeah, it was an issue with the gift of tongues and interpretation, and where. 00:05:46.164 --> 00:05:55.567 To what level does the pastoral leadership manage, I guess, manage that in the midst of 00:05:55.567 --> 00:06:01.026 of corporate worship. And we're also talking about 500 people in the church. 00:06:03.407 --> 00:06:06.607 Or something like that at that church. So it's a little bit bigger than conduit 00:06:06.607 --> 00:06:08.975 and the dynamics maybe are a little bit different. 00:06:09.067 --> 00:06:13.327 But anyway, what we were saying is what they, 00:06:15.387 --> 00:06:24.067 he's the executive pastor and his senior pastor, Pastor Nicole Schreiber, thought it may be a good idea 00:06:24.067 --> 00:06:29.067 some time for us to get together and not even do a stump, 00:06:31.247 --> 00:06:38.287 for our positions, like I'm right, you're wrong, let's figure out who's more right and who's more wrong, 00:06:38.377 --> 00:06:44.336 but just be able to have an honest conversation about maybe differences in approaches to worship, 00:06:45.210 --> 00:06:48.819 orderliness, and leadership. 00:06:50.167 --> 00:06:54.367 That would be fun. Yeah, and we said, well, let's do it over lunch or something like that. 00:06:54.367 --> 00:06:57.885 I'm like, well, that would be fun. But like, why don't we do it on a podcast, 00:07:00.007 --> 00:07:07.310 and let others benefit from perspective? Yeah, you know? So maybe that's something that we can do in the future. 00:07:07.627 --> 00:07:14.656 Yeah, I think that could be a really beneficial thing. Cause like, if you're committed to a church. 00:07:17.487 --> 00:07:21.567 Or you're committed to like a certain denomination of churches, 00:07:21.567 --> 00:07:30.257 not everybody gets a fair look over the fence of the other denominations necessarily, I think. 00:07:30.847 --> 00:07:35.100 Like if you've not had the opportunity to explore. 00:07:37.607 --> 00:07:45.627 Like if you come from a more conservative, maybe evangelical or middle of the road kind of place, 00:07:45.627 --> 00:07:50.367 and you've never been to a more charismatic church, 00:07:50.584 --> 00:07:55.121 Like you just, like, you don't have a concept of what's on the other side of the fence, 00:07:55.567 --> 00:07:57.372 other than maybe you're just preconceived, 00:07:58.119 --> 00:07:59.199 like notions or something like that. 00:07:59.607 --> 00:08:03.610 So I think there could be, there could be benefit to just like, oh. 00:08:05.105 --> 00:08:11.835 That's why that church does things like that, right? Right instead of just saying oh, they're crazy. They're crazy, 00:08:12.355 --> 00:08:16.915 Or they're too conservative or they don't have the Holy Spirit. We do or whatever. Yeah, 00:08:17.834 --> 00:08:21.579 Who or they're like a or they're a woke church or something like that. Yeah, that's, 00:08:23.613 --> 00:08:27.875 We could talk about that Right 00:08:27.875 --> 00:08:33.453 And maybe we will a little bit. Well, we kind of are today a little bit today a little bit because I do think that, 00:08:33.957 --> 00:08:35.559 that we're gonna, there's a, you know, 00:08:36.315 --> 00:08:39.925 we're gonna talk about the big scary word, deconstruction. 00:08:40.875 --> 00:08:45.588 Yeah. Maybe not be as scary for many people. I think there's some sense where. 00:08:47.715 --> 00:08:50.656 Maybe in different church cultures or different areas of the world, 00:08:51.075 --> 00:08:55.076 if you say I'm deconstruct, like I'm in a process of deconstruction, 00:08:55.415 --> 00:08:59.622 as it pertains to my faith, they would know immediately what you're talking about 00:08:59.715 --> 00:09:01.738 and what you're doing. Yes, yeah. 00:09:03.655 --> 00:09:07.675 I don't know that I'm, like I don't know that I'm convinced that if I said, 00:09:07.675 --> 00:09:12.915 stood up on a Sunday morning here at Conduit and was like, how many of you have ever gone through a period where, 00:09:12.915 --> 00:09:14.602 you know, like you've deconstructed your faith, 00:09:15.515 --> 00:09:18.842 that there would be an abundance of people who even knew what I was talking about? 00:09:19.195 --> 00:09:27.395 Well, it's still, as far as like words go, it's still a relatively new one in common usage 00:09:27.395 --> 00:09:32.112 and is, you know, is probably, is thrown more around and probably... 00:09:35.127 --> 00:09:44.017 I don't know, more just like in some, in certain cultures of the church and maybe more liberal centers, 00:09:44.017 --> 00:09:45.817 it was like a big thing in Chicago. 00:09:45.817 --> 00:09:50.297 Like everybody deconstructed everything in Chicago when I was there. 00:09:50.297 --> 00:09:58.417 See, I don't, I'm curious as to whether or not it is a phenomenon that happens on a certain side 00:09:58.737 --> 00:10:06.446 of a theological spectrum, or if it's a phenomenon that happens within a certain like age range? 00:10:10.037 --> 00:10:11.983 Like are millennials more, 00:10:14.197 --> 00:10:22.157 are they more, do they tend to deconstruct more than boomers or Gen Xers or wherever we are now? I can't keep up. 00:10:24.537 --> 00:10:32.557 You know, so, and whether or not like there's a timetable, or not a timetable, but if there's like a natural period 00:10:32.557 --> 00:10:35.587 In which you generally will deconstruct. 00:10:35.697 --> 00:10:44.247 Right, like kind of a theological midlife crisis. Yeah, I think you're on to something there. 00:10:44.643 --> 00:10:48.190 Well, and because I'm of the persuasion that deconstruction is nothing new. 00:10:48.739 --> 00:10:52.700 That it's not. It's not. It's not at all. It's something that's very, very old. 00:10:52.898 --> 00:10:55.193 We've been doing for a long time. 00:10:55.293 --> 00:11:01.077 We've maybe just not named it that. I think the name for it, 00:11:01.077 --> 00:11:26.077 I think people, I think people, irrespective of like theological persuasions and area political persuasions, like, regardless of all of that, I think people just in general, at least here in the West, very much deconstruct, I think the West is very much in a, and we can talk about reasons why I think the West is prone to deconstruction. 00:11:26.077 --> 00:11:31.077 But I think maybe the word deconstruction itself. 00:11:33.477 --> 00:11:38.476 The terminology that has kind of gone around it has become trendy in certain circles, 00:11:38.954 --> 00:11:41.240 but not the phenomena of deconstruction. 00:11:41.397 --> 00:11:42.347 That's what I would say. 00:11:42.597 --> 00:11:47.637 And I mean, in an effort to be super clear about what we're even talking about. 00:11:47.637 --> 00:11:51.637 Yeah, we actually need to define what we're talking about. So when we talk about deconstruction, 00:11:51.637 --> 00:11:57.570 what we're talking about is the process that someone goes through when they. 00:11:59.029 --> 00:12:03.517 The process that someone goes through when they begin to maybe take all of the things 00:12:03.517 --> 00:12:06.032 that they've classically believed, 00:12:06.771 --> 00:12:13.342 or have been taught to believe or have thought, right, and they, in some way, shape, or form, 00:12:13.423 --> 00:12:15.638 begin to kind of systematically question. 00:12:16.835 --> 00:12:23.085 The beliefs themselves, but also the premises that lie underneath the beliefs and start to 00:12:23.085 --> 00:12:30.685 come against the authority of that belief in their life and may end up may end up completely 00:12:30.685 --> 00:12:37.805 rejecting, completely rejecting the thing that they have previously believed because of how it 00:12:37.805 --> 00:12:45.565 was pushed into their life or how they came to believe it or who believed it or who else believes 00:12:45.565 --> 00:12:50.965 it. Yep. Sometimes we don't want to believe certain things anymore because of who the 00:12:50.965 --> 00:12:57.021 belief is associated with. That's a big thing. Yeah. I mean, even I can resonate with that, 00:12:57.525 --> 00:13:05.339 you know, I, I risked so, uh, but, uh, you know, as you're describing it, I was like, 00:13:05.525 --> 00:13:09.570 what is it like a good example of this? And you know what, like a really maybe fun, funny 00:13:09.885 --> 00:13:15.645 example or easy example of this is like the kid who's grown up believing in Santa Claus. 00:13:15.645 --> 00:13:15.998 Right. 00:13:16.232 --> 00:13:21.965 Right. They've grown up believing in Santa Claus and the parents have maybe waited a long time 00:13:22.101 --> 00:13:26.504 to tell them that there's no Santa Claus. They maybe like have held off on like, 00:13:26.837 --> 00:13:31.923 we don't want to ruin the magic, whatever. Also, this is not a judgment on Santa Claus. I'm not 00:13:32.337 --> 00:13:33.725 sharing my personal thoughts on that. 00:13:35.407 --> 00:13:39.885 Don't let your kids listen. Yeah, don't let it. Pastor Luke's about to ruin everyone's childhood. 00:13:41.645 --> 00:13:45.565 But they grow up and they're like, and then at some point they go. 00:13:48.765 --> 00:13:55.165 Santa's handwriting on the package label looks an awful lot like mom's, right? They begin to ask 00:13:55.165 --> 00:14:01.378 that question, they inevitably come up to mom and dad and they're like, is Santa real, right? 00:14:01.565 --> 00:14:02.171 Right? 00:14:02.565 --> 00:14:09.607 And parents, you know, and then one, Santa's not real. So who then gave me all of those gifts? 00:14:09.965 --> 00:14:11.038 You guys gave me all those gifts, okay? 00:14:12.885 --> 00:14:18.006 Does Santa actually see me when I'm doing something wrong or naughty or nice, right? Like the whole... 00:14:18.996 --> 00:14:22.921 Like the whole... We're gonna have a whole generation of people deconstructing Elf on the Shelf. 00:14:23.485 --> 00:14:28.485 You're not wrong on that one. 00:14:28.485 --> 00:14:33.885 Right? Coming into that like, or what about like, you know, the big trendy thing the last several 00:14:33.885 --> 00:14:39.413 years is to get like videos of people making videos as Santa and putting the name of their kids in it. 00:14:39.565 --> 00:14:45.183 Well, who was that strange guy that was telling me to behave, you know, when I was little? 00:14:45.965 --> 00:14:51.005 All of those questions come in and a kid then begins to say, okay, what do I do with this 00:14:51.005 --> 00:14:57.485 new information? Do my beliefs change? Do I, you know, all that? Now, that's a little 00:14:57.485 --> 00:15:04.965 bit, that's maybe a little bit of a slanted way to talk about deconstruction because I'm 00:15:04.965 --> 00:15:06.996 from starting with something that is. 00:15:08.328 --> 00:15:16.418 Undeniably not true right Santa, but but then the the downstream from that is the, 00:15:17.493 --> 00:15:22.138 well What else did you tell me? That's not true, right is the Easter Bunny not real. 00:15:24.538 --> 00:15:30.238 Easter chicken that lays the eggs Easter chicken There's an Easter chicken guys. I swear, 00:15:31.098 --> 00:15:37.766 It just it provides that example provides a framework for what happens in people's faith. 00:15:37.918 --> 00:15:45.718 And so they encounter something that maybe they have a hard time accepting 00:15:45.718 --> 00:15:49.676 or believing anymore, and it starts a whole kind of like. 00:15:51.398 --> 00:15:54.294 Unraveling process. Right, yeah. 00:15:56.598 --> 00:16:01.712 I was trying to think earlier today, as I was thinking about what we were gonna talk about today, 00:16:01.958 --> 00:16:11.164 trying to think earlier about what are some of the classic places that we see people start deconstructing. 00:16:14.718 --> 00:16:18.573 You know, so like, okay, let's say I've grown, I grew up in the church. 00:16:21.918 --> 00:16:27.158 You know, kind of classic story, parents dragged me to church every Sunday morning 00:16:27.158 --> 00:16:29.988 and Wednesday night, whether I wanted to or not, 00:16:33.778 --> 00:16:38.738 would describe my life or my family as a Christian family in a Christian home. 00:16:39.858 --> 00:16:47.029 Maybe I saw a lot of hypocrisy at home because we're all hypocrites, right? 00:16:48.498 --> 00:16:57.298 And it created a little bit of discontinuity in me because my parents were pushing me in one direction, 00:16:58.778 --> 00:17:01.838 but I saw that their lives were going in another. 00:17:03.224 --> 00:17:04.521 It's sort of a typical story. 00:17:07.258 --> 00:17:12.470 And so essentially everything that they gave me in faith or forced upon me in faith, 00:17:13.418 --> 00:17:17.378 and the brokenness of my relationship with them or the hypocrisy that I saw in their life, 00:17:19.338 --> 00:17:23.898 brings me to a point of being like, okay, everything that they gave me, 00:17:23.898 --> 00:17:25.712 I'm now gonna begin to. Right. 00:17:28.737 --> 00:17:35.335 To question whether or not this is something I believe, or whether it's something that they believed on my behalf. 00:17:35.647 --> 00:17:43.567 And I think the reason I wanted to talk about this today was last night at the end of one of our classes, 00:17:43.567 --> 00:17:45.571 we were having a conversation with someone 00:17:45.643 --> 00:17:49.667 who described the kind of the relationship that they were having with their faith right now 00:17:49.667 --> 00:17:51.116 as one of detangling. 00:17:52.557 --> 00:17:56.050 Yeah. Which I think is. Maybe a better word. Such a better word. 00:17:56.374 --> 00:17:59.948 It's much less destructive. 00:18:00.299 --> 00:18:07.185 Deconstruction sounds or has the like implication of taking a hammer to everything. 00:18:07.787 --> 00:18:14.621 Well, and like the thing too is that deconstruction, we're talking about it in a very faith. 00:18:15.387 --> 00:18:18.321 We're talking about it very specifically when it comes to faith, 00:18:18.933 --> 00:18:23.092 but deconstruction is like a broader intellectual. 00:18:23.398 --> 00:18:30.627 Cultural phenomenon. Cultural phenomenon. And it's like, you know, in part, it's a natural thing 00:18:30.907 --> 00:18:34.147 that comes out of postmodernism and all of that. 00:18:34.192 --> 00:18:38.307 Like, let's just upset all the norms. Like, let's build everything, you know, 00:18:38.307 --> 00:18:39.530 let's tear everything down. 00:18:39.918 --> 00:18:45.094 But the problem is with deconstructionism, deconstructing things is that, 00:18:45.364 --> 00:18:50.547 well, if you deconstruct everything, you eventually end up with nothing, 00:18:50.547 --> 00:18:55.547 which is a little bit the existential crisis of the world. 00:18:55.194 --> 00:19:03.270 The modern age. But yeah, detangling I think has a more, I like that word too. 00:19:03.524 --> 00:19:08.644 I do too, because I get this image of like a big ball of spaghetti, right? And I use this sometimes 00:19:08.644 --> 00:19:15.204 in my counseling relationships with people, is that our experiences and our life and our emotions 00:19:15.204 --> 00:19:21.924 and our thought patterns and our bodies and our beliefs is like a big ball of spaghetti. And often 00:19:21.924 --> 00:19:28.701 And when we come to a place of crisis or we're in a place of de-disregulation, 00:19:28.864 --> 00:19:34.561 we wanna try and like, what's wrong with this ball of spaghetti? 00:19:35.570 --> 00:19:39.664 And it becomes overwhelming and we get flooded and we can't deal with it. 00:19:39.664 --> 00:19:45.598 And so it's okay, like, let's just take out a single strand of pasta one at a time, right? 00:19:46.705 --> 00:19:53.084 Talk about it and set it off to the side. And eventually, as you pull out all those things, 00:19:53.084 --> 00:19:57.688 you're eventually left with, it's not a tangled mess anymore. 00:19:57.844 --> 00:20:03.524 Makes more sense. And so, the detangling of theological belief, I think, 00:20:03.524 --> 00:20:05.529 and all of the things that come along with it, 00:20:07.330 --> 00:20:14.844 is a much more helpful, I think, language, because I think it's just more honest. 00:20:14.844 --> 00:20:23.083 It presumes a little bit more theological and intellectual honesty, rather than saying, 00:20:23.633 --> 00:20:30.124 the premise of all of the things that I believed, I hate it, and so I'm just going to take a hammer to it. 00:20:30.124 --> 00:20:33.164 Whatever survives, survives. 00:20:33.886 --> 00:20:39.675 But that's not really a fair – it's not really giving the thing a fair shake. 00:20:40.503 --> 00:20:46.796 Right. Well, there's that. I do not know who made this quote. Maybe you can tell me who said the quote. 00:20:49.496 --> 00:20:55.303 Oh, what is, I'm going to butcher the quote, faith is seeking understanding, or faith is 00:20:55.555 --> 00:20:58.877 doubt seeking understanding? I think it was like an Aquinas quote or something like that. 00:20:59.300 --> 00:21:04.637 I don't know. I don't know who it was. I'm familiar with the quote, but I'm not sure who it was. 00:21:04.737 --> 00:21:11.543 Yeah, but I guess like all that to say that like, I do think that sometimes, like, I feel, 00:21:12.037 --> 00:21:16.317 like on a regular basis, I will have a conversation with someone and they're like, I'm experiencing 00:21:16.317 --> 00:21:23.037 doubt. And it's like a really big scary thing. And I understand why, is because sometimes when 00:21:23.037 --> 00:21:28.008 people experience doubt, they're like, well, does that mean everything is going to end up 00:21:28.224 --> 00:21:34.317 falling out from underneath of me? I'm like, well, no, doubt exists in the context of faith. 00:21:35.120 --> 00:21:41.357 You can't have doubt if you don't also have faith first. It's a precondition for doubt to exist. 00:21:41.628 --> 00:21:49.856 And so like, take that and, and, and wrestle with it, but like, but do so in a, you know, 00:21:51.639 --> 00:21:56.557 honest way, honest way, in a way that doesn't necessarily just like pick the 00:21:56.932 --> 00:21:59.117 whole thing up and throw it out the window. Right. 00:21:59.570 --> 00:22:05.357 You know, you say spaghetti. I immediately thought of, um, wired headphones, Christmas lights or Christmas 00:22:05.357 --> 00:22:06.237 lights, right? 00:22:06.237 --> 00:22:08.877 Like, and you're trying on, you know, and eventually just like, oh, I'm just 00:22:08.877 --> 00:22:12.837 going to go buy a new box. buy a new box, because you don't want to fix it. 00:22:12.837 --> 00:22:15.027 Sometimes people do that. They try. 00:22:17.077 --> 00:22:22.391 So kind of two questions, maybe to guide some more detailed conversation. 00:22:22.679 --> 00:22:26.883 One is the one I already asked. What is one of like, what are some of the like 00:22:26.957 --> 00:22:31.357 main places that people start deconstructing? 00:22:33.445 --> 00:22:38.712 And what are some of the key experiences that happen in people's lives, 00:22:39.522 --> 00:22:43.637 that initiate a period of detanglement or deconstruction. 00:22:44.491 --> 00:22:43.771 Yeah. 00:22:45.957 --> 00:22:52.397 Do you have any that come to your mind? Well, I would say to answer the second question first. 00:22:52.397 --> 00:22:53.700 Yeah, like what sparks it? 00:22:53.777 --> 00:22:56.037 What sparks it? I can think of a couple of things. 00:22:56.473 --> 00:23:05.899 Yeah, I think there's a couple of things that spark it. a deeply personal experience that, 00:23:07.303 --> 00:23:15.081 that a person is absolutely validated in, but that strikes again or is opposite 00:23:15.513 --> 00:23:21.347 to what they have been believing their whole life or been taught to believe. 00:23:21.913 --> 00:23:25.933 So what do you mean by that? Put some more flesh on that. So I'm talking about like the deconstruction 00:23:25.933 --> 00:23:27.135 of purity culture. Yeah. 00:23:28.633 --> 00:23:33.433 Around issues of sexuality, not just, not homosexuality. Right. 00:23:33.433 --> 00:23:34.823 Just sexuality in general. 00:23:35.219 --> 00:23:42.547 Yeah. sexuality, premarital sex, um, the idea of like, you've lost your virginity, you've, 00:23:43.222 --> 00:23:51.468 you've committed a carnal or not a mortal sin. Um, that's, you know, reprehensible or, or even, you know, 00:23:51.873 --> 00:23:56.689 like people begin to, you know, deconstruct, um, 00:23:57.167 --> 00:24:00.793 you know, there's, there's this sense where like, for instance, 00:24:00.793 --> 00:24:08.813 if you grew up in a, in a type of, uh, culture in regards to human sexuality that was like, 00:24:10.004 --> 00:24:22.793 the you know, most egregious sin that a teenager can do is to Have premarital sex right and it is like a huge thing that gets talked about in youth groups 00:24:22.793 --> 00:24:29.933 Yeah, it's like if you do so, it's it's essentially the end of the world, right? Yeah that sense sure and 00:24:29.933 --> 00:24:34.653 And we're not gonna really necessarily, 00:24:34.653 --> 00:24:37.573 at least I don't intend to really comment about that whole discussion, 00:24:37.573 --> 00:24:38.559 because it's complicated. 00:24:41.458 --> 00:24:46.427 And so then someone has sex before marriage. 00:24:49.344 --> 00:24:57.213 And they may end up in a long-term relationship with that. with that, right? 00:24:58.328 --> 00:25:28.093 They use that as the starting point for like, okay, well, everything that's good in my life now, especially in this relationship, maybe I've got children or whatever like that was based upon what my faith and my family told me not to do and, and in the midst of them telling me not to do it, it created a lot of shame, it created a lot of embarrassment, created a lot of like, I was ostracized, I was seen as the person on the 00:25:28.093 --> 00:25:31.293 the outside, I was the rebel child, I was the prodigal, 00:25:31.293 --> 00:25:34.049 I was the crazy one, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. 00:25:34.133 --> 00:25:41.089 You know, and I don't want anything to do with the type of faith culture that that produces. 00:25:41.993 --> 00:25:50.413 So that's kind of a, you know, like one example of a place that people start their deconstruction from, 00:25:50.413 --> 00:25:55.168 but I've seen people flat out reject, 00:25:55.753 --> 00:25:59.903 all of Christian faith based on the response. 00:26:02.293 --> 00:26:09.563 Of the church with sexuality. Yes. Very common thing. Very, very common thing. 00:26:09.613 --> 00:26:15.253 Which is not really, I don't think, actually about sexuality that is making them 00:26:15.253 --> 00:26:19.933 like reject the faith. I think it's like the feelings of shame, 00:26:21.032 --> 00:26:23.831 that they received or felt like were there. 00:26:26.813 --> 00:26:33.553 Might have been there, that made them not even want to engage 00:26:33.553 --> 00:26:38.473 the conversation of faith out of a responsiveness 00:26:38.473 --> 00:26:40.585 to not wanting any more shame. 00:26:41.613 --> 00:26:47.613 I don't want it anymore. So I say that's one example of where deconstruction starts 00:26:47.613 --> 00:26:54.241 and then it just kind of waterfalls into, like, okay, there's shame as it pertains to my sexuality. 00:26:54.733 --> 00:26:56.006 You follow the bunny trail. 00:26:56.813 --> 00:26:58.373 I don't want anything to do with Jesus. 00:27:01.218 --> 00:27:05.890 And it doesn't... Because they say they're Jesus people. Right. It doesn't take long to get there for most people. Yeah. 00:27:09.628 --> 00:27:21.308 So that's where that starts. Yeah. I think one, I think that's a really, really, really popular one, or not popular, 00:27:21.308 --> 00:27:26.188 but common one. And then I think the other one that I'm seeing more and more and more of, 00:27:26.874 --> 00:27:40.508 in particularly in recent years is the moral failure of visible public leaders or personal, 00:27:41.035 --> 00:27:50.188 faith leaders. Like if I was at such and such church and turns out that that pastor was doing, 00:27:51.270 --> 00:27:58.428 x, y, z. A lot of times it's an affair of some sort, or sexual abuse. And then the church. 00:27:59.724 --> 00:28:06.908 It's like a combination of both the moral failing of someone who was idolized, maybe, 00:28:06.908 --> 00:28:16.028 or looked up to, or was important in the church, or in their faith, but then also the, perhaps 00:28:16.028 --> 00:28:21.228 maybe the lack of the way in which a church might respond to that. 00:28:21.464 --> 00:28:26.748 Respond to it, yeah. Right? You're just, okay, well, because we've had pastors who have had moral failings for, 00:28:27.379 --> 00:28:30.403 and failures like that for years, right? 00:28:30.668 --> 00:28:37.228 Forever. Forever. The difference is the connectedness and the shrinking of the world. We're maybe 00:28:37.228 --> 00:28:45.788 more aware of them than ever. But now we get a front row seat to, well, how does the church 00:28:45.788 --> 00:28:50.244 respond to it and is the church... 00:28:51.829 --> 00:28:59.839 Covering it up is are they you know, whatever right? I've heard a gazillion horror stories, but I've also been in enough complicated. 00:29:01.799 --> 00:29:04.559 Situations to know that no one ever has the whole story, 00:29:05.479 --> 00:29:10.707 But that's a whole we could talk about we can go down that drama of like, you know, 00:29:11.679 --> 00:29:18.016 judging from afar things that we really have no context for making clear and harsh judgments on but, 00:29:18.466 --> 00:29:24.519 But again, that's an understandable reason, particularly if you're part of the faith community, 00:29:24.519 --> 00:29:31.359 where that's happening, not just a like, looking onward at maybe a public figure, I can understand 00:29:31.359 --> 00:29:34.239 why that might cause some deconstruction. 00:29:34.328 --> 00:29:39.079 But particularly if you're in a church, where that's happening, right, like that would be 00:29:39.079 --> 00:29:46.799 cause for like, well, the person who was supposed to be the maturest of us all, and stood up 00:29:46.799 --> 00:29:52.879 front is not living a life according to the Bible, and then all the other leaders are 00:29:52.879 --> 00:29:58.539 all just like in on it and not holding him accountable or not taking the right steps 00:29:58.539 --> 00:30:05.053 and things like that, why then should I take these things seriously that this person has told me? 00:30:05.800 --> 00:30:09.131 Right? And there goes the thread. 00:30:10.119 --> 00:30:12.210 I think similarly. 00:30:14.947 --> 00:30:19.837 What comes maybe maybe is a bigger picture of the one that you mentioned around with sexuality, but 00:30:19.837 --> 00:30:29.917 is when people experience extreme amounts of control from a church. And, and typically when 00:30:29.917 --> 00:30:37.517 you're like, like, I'll say that typically those situations are just categorically wrong. Yep. 00:30:37.659 --> 00:30:44.237 When we're getting into a place of like, like very much trying to control all thoughts, 00:30:44.330 --> 00:30:51.190 behaviors, like spiritual abuse, emotional abuse, those types of things. And they begin to like, 00:30:51.586 --> 00:30:58.237 someone will, you know, begin to say like, I don't want to live my life like this. 00:30:58.383 --> 00:31:03.357 Right. And then they have to leave. And those are typically the more extreme 00:31:03.357 --> 00:31:08.237 places, you start to get into more things that are a little bit more closer to 00:31:08.237 --> 00:31:12.732 cults or our cults, but like, even just like, um. 00:31:15.019 --> 00:31:22.397 But yeah, any place where we're law, legalism and control kind of mingle a life feel like a lot of people come out 00:31:22.677 --> 00:31:29.918 of that at some point. Um, usually because of, uh, like, I'm tired of living this way. in this way. Yeah. 00:31:31.917 --> 00:31:37.588 Yeah, I agree. I think there's a part of that too that answers the other question, 00:31:37.837 --> 00:31:42.305 which is when does deconstruction in a person's life actually happen? 00:31:43.597 --> 00:31:46.869 Now it's different for everyone, but I think in general, 00:31:48.588 --> 00:31:53.098 it usually happens when there's like some emotional 00:31:53.440 --> 00:31:57.951 or physical separation from the origin of the faith, 00:31:59.103 --> 00:32:08.177 separation from the origin of the faith of the faith that they are deconstructing. 00:32:10.014 --> 00:32:17.244 So you see a lot of kids go away to college Being in a deconstruct or untangle or redefine, 00:32:18.485 --> 00:32:25.504 right if you are a parent of someone who is in college and you feel like they have just, 00:32:26.664 --> 00:32:30.464 Fallen off the rails of life in freshman their freshman year, 00:32:31.344 --> 00:32:37.444 Say it's pretty normal. Yeah hundred percent. It's pretty normal and they probably haven't actually fallen off the rails 00:32:37.444 --> 00:32:40.564 they've probably just fallen off your rails. 00:32:40.564 --> 00:32:42.512 Yes, that was. 00:32:42.644 --> 00:32:45.861 It's not, and it's not necessarily a bad thing. No, it's not. 00:32:46.004 --> 00:32:50.488 And you actually, you actually kind of want that to happen. A little bit. 00:32:50.884 --> 00:32:57.764 Yeah, you want some personal ownership with the development of their own belief and faith. 00:32:57.764 --> 00:33:02.764 And then sometimes that journey can be a pretty long one. 00:33:03.284 --> 00:33:08.132 It can be. and sometimes painful, but it's important. 00:33:09.524 --> 00:33:18.384 And so when there is a kind of a beginning of a separation, sometimes you see it when there's. 00:33:21.164 --> 00:33:25.324 Not necessarily a physical separation, but there begins to be an emotional separation. 00:33:25.324 --> 00:33:29.524 So you can be physically proximate to someone or something or some people, 00:33:29.756 --> 00:33:31.924 but then beginning to deconstruct. 00:33:31.924 --> 00:33:37.964 I mean, your example of like cultish type, super high controlling environments, 00:33:37.964 --> 00:33:43.264 there begins to be some emotional separation from that community of origin, 00:33:43.264 --> 00:33:47.373 and then they begin to question inside the midst of the community, 00:33:47.444 --> 00:33:50.785 and the community reacts strongly against the questioning, 00:33:51.724 --> 00:33:59.571 and that strong reaction usually is an indicator for them that they, wow, I was right. 00:34:01.003 --> 00:34:05.720 They're they're gone, but then in the process and then now they get the physical separation and, 00:34:07.016 --> 00:34:12.033 now the deconstruction really starts to happen. Yeah, because the, 00:34:13.053 --> 00:34:21.153 Constraints are awful because the constraints are off I feel like if I were to put a general age range deconstruction can obviously happen at any point in life and 00:34:21.573 --> 00:34:31.430 What but like I would say that like the most common age range to be deconstructing I would say is maybe between between 17 and 27? 00:34:32.253 --> 00:34:36.213 Yeah, I was gonna say like 18 to 30, but basic thing, you're getting, 00:34:36.213 --> 00:34:40.766 you're out of the house, you're going to college, you're starting your career, you're meeting new people. 00:34:40.973 --> 00:34:49.435 You might get married and meet your spouse's family who might have a completely different worldview, 00:34:50.093 --> 00:34:52.505 or culture or whatever. Or you might meet your spouse. 00:34:53.053 --> 00:34:56.653 Exactly. Fall in love with someone who's got different values, 00:34:56.653 --> 00:35:00.751 ideas than you, and that's a place where sometimes things shift. 00:35:01.293 --> 00:35:06.458 Sometimes you deconstruct so you can stay in a relationship. That happens a lot. 00:35:06.863 --> 00:35:11.033 It's not the most healthy reason to deconstruct, in my opinion. 00:35:11.033 --> 00:35:15.093 It's probably one of the most unhealthy, if you ask me, I mean we see this a lot 00:35:15.093 --> 00:35:20.093 when you have, even with kids. 00:35:22.373 --> 00:35:27.413 I say kids, but people, With people who have what we would consider 00:35:27.413 --> 00:35:31.007 to be a healthy faith, strong faith, 00:35:31.413 --> 00:35:33.960 not a faith that's been jammed down their throat, 00:35:34.933 --> 00:35:39.253 not a faith that's been pushed into them through shame and guilt and condemnation, 00:35:39.413 --> 00:35:46.635 but one that they've truly received and have lived themselves, then they meet someone. 00:35:48.481 --> 00:35:54.161 Who they really like but who is maybe, 00:35:55.611 --> 00:35:59.731 Spiritual but doesn't follow Jesus or yeah something stupid like that, you know, 00:36:02.011 --> 00:36:06.051 And or has no faith at all, 00:36:08.520 --> 00:36:18.731 And in the midst of their like desire to be with that person they a somewhat of a deconstruction or an abandonment 00:36:18.731 --> 00:36:22.651 or a walking away from or diluting of, whatever you wanna call it. 00:36:22.651 --> 00:36:26.794 It becomes a, like, I'm not doing this anymore. 00:36:28.559 --> 00:36:34.365 And it's a form of deconstruction, I think, that happens quite a bit. 00:36:35.571 --> 00:36:36.940 Yeah, 100%. 00:36:39.218 --> 00:36:37.714 Yeah. 00:36:40.451 --> 00:36:43.530 Have you ever deconstructed anything? Oh, yes. Yeah. 00:36:44.451 --> 00:36:49.531 Oh yeah. So that's the, that's probably the flip side of the coin is that I think we've maybe been 00:36:49.531 --> 00:36:54.651 talking about deconstruction. Deconstruction is not always a bad thing. 00:36:54.953 --> 00:36:58.617 No. It can be. Yeah. But like. Yeah, I think we can use it. 00:36:59.651 --> 00:37:13.031 I think we can use it as a way to describe maybe the process of developing a deeper or 00:37:13.031 --> 00:37:14.957 or a more nuanced perspective. 00:37:18.071 --> 00:37:25.732 So maybe we do our own detangling of the things that we thought were, 00:37:28.071 --> 00:37:35.011 of utmost importance or the things that we didn't think were important then 00:37:35.011 --> 00:37:36.634 that we think are important now. 00:37:36.931 --> 00:37:45.431 But, you know, you asked me that question and then I've been kind of like subconsciously 00:37:45.431 --> 00:37:49.171 thinking though, well, what would be an example of something that I've deconstructed? 00:37:50.641 --> 00:37:55.211 And I... Yeah, I have a hard time thinking of anything in particular myself because I was wondering, 00:37:55.211 --> 00:37:57.771 I was like, is there anything? I feel like I have. 00:37:58.005 --> 00:38:01.571 Well, yeah, I feel like I have too, but I think we probably tend to think that the things 00:38:01.571 --> 00:38:04.331 that we believe, we've always believed and that's why we believe them now. 00:38:04.331 --> 00:38:11.302 I'm sure there's lots of stuff that's there. I think maybe more than the like, 00:38:12.481 --> 00:38:17.477 I'm not so sure that my theology on primary issues has changed. 00:38:18.044 --> 00:38:20.376 In fact, I'm pretty positive it has not changed. 00:38:22.555 --> 00:38:32.371 But probably my, the vigor at which I will defend my secondary theological opinions You 00:38:32.052 --> 00:38:34.462 is much, much lower than it was in college. 00:38:37.876 --> 00:38:45.502 And that's not because maybe I don't have strong beliefs about those secondary theological 00:38:45.502 --> 00:38:52.302 opinions, but it's that I have put them in the right nuanced category of being secondary. 00:38:53.081 --> 00:38:57.942 Yeah, you know, well, you know, I think I think I would say something similar of I, 00:38:59.014 --> 00:39:04.882 think the this is actually a really big big thing, but I think the, 00:39:07.042 --> 00:39:11.995 Realizing that things are maybe not as black and white or as clear as maybe I was told or, 00:39:12.895 --> 00:39:16.582 others thought they were or told me they were at one point the. 00:39:18.620 --> 00:39:28.822 You know, so this this would happen with, like, extreme regularity, and you probably saw it, maybe, too, in your higher education, 00:39:28.822 --> 00:39:33.822 but, like, at my Bible college, like, I would routinely hear students, and they would be 00:39:33.822 --> 00:39:39.662 just, like, blown away as they're learning and studying theology and studying the Bible for the first time. 00:39:39.662 --> 00:39:44.082 And as they're coming, and they're wrestling with, like, actual critical studies and really 00:39:44.082 --> 00:39:49.662 difficult topics, and, like, sometimes these individuals were learning for the first time 00:39:49.662 --> 00:39:51.830 that the Bible wasn't written in English, right? 00:39:53.502 --> 00:39:58.582 Or that Jesus wasn't white. Or Jesus wasn't white. Now those are kind of extreme examples, 00:39:59.041 --> 00:40:07.062 but like they were coming and they were like, Ma, I feel like I was lied to by my youth pastor. 00:40:07.062 --> 00:40:13.174 I'm still a believer, still have faith, still pursuing Jesus, but I feel like my church lied to me, 00:40:13.679 --> 00:40:19.642 because they were giving me these apologetic answers that now that I'm actually studying this, 00:40:19.642 --> 00:40:25.895 I'm realizing are really pat or really superficial or were really like convenient, 00:40:26.408 --> 00:40:29.775 because they tied everything up in a nice bow, 00:40:30.396 --> 00:40:32.538 but they left out all the nuance. 00:40:32.916 --> 00:40:37.129 They left out the places and the gaps where faith still had to stand in the gap. 00:40:38.202 --> 00:40:42.828 And now they're shaking their faith up a little bit because they're like, 00:40:43.287 --> 00:40:48.402 well, I thought things were just simpler than that because, you know, such and such pastor 00:40:48.402 --> 00:40:50.813 or such, and a youth leader told me so. 00:40:50.962 --> 00:40:56.880 And I think this is a really big, this is a big thing for me, 00:40:56.962 --> 00:41:01.442 and I think it came through, and I can't remember what the question was 00:41:01.442 --> 00:41:02.840 when I was being interviewed here. 00:41:02.922 --> 00:41:08.442 Someone asked me a question about, like, responding to children's questions and things like that. 00:41:08.442 --> 00:41:12.562 Like, how would I explain a difficult theological topic to a kid? 00:41:12.968 --> 00:41:16.451 And my answer, my conviction is don't lie. 00:41:18.045 --> 00:41:23.770 So, like, as much as possible, tell the whole truth at an age appropriate level. 00:41:24.815 --> 00:41:33.215 And I think sometimes it might be really because like, there's a there's there's a section 00:41:33.215 --> 00:41:39.146 of like, of Christianity that I used to bump into more often, that like is all about like 00:41:39.299 --> 00:41:43.475 trying to because they know kids deconstruct their faith at college age, and when they 00:41:43.475 --> 00:41:44.619 they go away to college. 00:41:44.715 --> 00:41:50.318 So they try and like sure kids out with all of these apologetics and try and build them up in the faith 00:41:50.715 --> 00:41:53.307 before they leave to college. Cause once they leave the nest, 00:41:53.655 --> 00:41:55.143 they're like gone or whatever. 00:41:55.275 --> 00:41:57.700 Like can't learn anything anymore. Can't learn anything anymore. 00:41:57.875 --> 00:42:02.355 They're going to go away and they're going to deconstruct and they're going to lose their faith. 00:42:02.355 --> 00:42:07.467 And so there's this huge emphasis on trying to build up kids faith in a high school area, 00:42:08.535 --> 00:42:14.275 before they go away to college in anticipation of that potential life crisis. 00:42:14.275 --> 00:42:16.280 You don't want them to lose their faith in college. 00:42:16.343 --> 00:42:21.781 And what I think sometimes happens in the interest of building up those kids' faith, 00:42:21.970 --> 00:42:28.784 we maybe perhaps simplify really complex answers to complex questions, 00:42:29.075 --> 00:42:36.121 and then we give the kids those, like, okay, just accept this apologetic answer. 00:42:36.915 --> 00:42:43.836 They go away, they go to college, they learn things, and then they maybe look back and they're like, 00:42:43.915 --> 00:42:45.745 that answer doesn't hold water anymore. 00:42:47.035 --> 00:42:52.275 What then am I like, why was I being given subpar theological answers? 00:42:52.275 --> 00:42:56.315 Have you ever, have you noticed that or encountered that before? 00:42:56.315 --> 00:42:58.771 Yeah, I guess I never really thought about it. 00:42:58.955 --> 00:43:07.386 But, or I guess I never really thought about the down the road implications of that, 00:43:08.656 --> 00:43:12.419 but I do see how that can be, you know. 00:43:13.940 --> 00:43:19.710 That can be a thing. I wonder what the difference then between. 00:43:21.970 --> 00:43:26.750 Not necessarily lying, because I'm not sure that I would say that people are out there lying to 00:43:26.750 --> 00:43:34.910 kids about theological things. I think that there's probably a, that they're bringing the 00:43:34.910 --> 00:43:36.833 lowest level of truth. 00:43:38.550 --> 00:43:45.310 Lowest level of non-nuanced truth to them, but then maybe never building upon 00:43:45.310 --> 00:43:49.697 that most simple explanation. 00:43:50.830 --> 00:43:58.830 And just letting that be what it is and never revealing or exposing, 00:44:00.430 --> 00:44:06.279 to maybe the whole reality that exists within the question or the answer. 00:44:07.170 --> 00:44:15.678 Yeah, yeah. I'd like, for example, I think the two topics that probably come up the most, 00:44:16.361 --> 00:44:18.990 is like authority of scripture. 00:44:19.683 --> 00:44:21.106 I think if we, if people. 00:44:22.213 --> 00:44:27.678 I would see people given a really simplified version of the authority of Scripture. Then, 00:44:28.463 --> 00:44:34.143 they would come and they would realize, oh, the way the Bible came together was way more complex, 00:44:34.843 --> 00:44:40.223 than I was told. Now I'm unsure as to whether or not the Bible is authoritative. The other one 00:44:40.223 --> 00:44:41.743 that was… And we had that question last night. 00:44:41.743 --> 00:44:43.251 Had that question last night. Yep. 00:44:43.413 --> 00:44:47.823 It's understandable, it's a very common question. The second question, and I don't know, we might 00:44:47.823 --> 00:44:55.503 get people who are angry about this one is when it comes to seven-day creationism and just exactly 00:44:55.503 --> 00:45:03.983 how did God go about creating the universe? And, you know, was it a literal seven-day? 00:45:05.451 --> 00:45:08.383 I know people who will die on that hill. Sure. 00:45:09.070 --> 00:45:16.063 Of like, it was a literal seven-day, precisely the way it was told in the first chapters of 00:45:16.063 --> 00:45:22.463 Genesis to believe anything else is to not be Christian. I know people who would say that. Yes. 00:45:22.672 --> 00:45:29.423 If you go to a Bible college, you go out there, you'll find other Christians who confess and 00:45:29.423 --> 00:45:34.863 believe in Christ, but have slightly different interpretations of that passage, who still 00:45:34.863 --> 00:45:40.506 absolutely 100% believe and confess that God created the universe, that that passage is, 00:45:40.956 --> 00:45:46.623 authoritative, has things to teach us and influence the Christian life, has deep theological 00:45:46.623 --> 00:45:54.937 significance, but is not reflective of the specific details of how God created. And they, 00:45:55.503 --> 00:46:00.063 might have a different view. And so all now you're encountering Christians with different views. 00:46:01.247 --> 00:46:07.503 Whoa, like, you know, and so that becomes a point, again, of potential unraveling or 00:46:07.675 --> 00:46:14.543 detangling or deconstructing. Yeah, I think those are two really good examples of maybe some of the 00:46:14.543 --> 00:46:22.438 things that you could give really basic, simple answers for, never revisit. And then when there's 00:46:22.783 --> 00:46:29.903 exposure to different perspectives or nuancing, then it becomes troublesome because everything 00:46:30.072 --> 00:46:34.231 that they've built their faith on at that point seems to be, 00:46:35.183 --> 00:46:38.183 you know, built on sand. Yeah. Yeah. 00:46:38.642 --> 00:46:40.758 Seems uncertain. Right. Right. 00:46:43.080 --> 00:46:47.699 Yeah. Do we have any advice for anyone who would be deconstructing? 00:46:55.774 --> 00:46:57.241 Um, yes, I would say... 00:47:01.976 --> 00:47:08.866 I would say the tendency in the process of deconstruction is to surround yourself, 00:47:10.277 --> 00:47:13.823 with people who are also deconstructing. Yeah. 00:47:16.371 --> 00:47:27.586 And while I wouldn't discount that altogether, I would say you get into a little bit of like 00:47:27.586 --> 00:47:30.118 like self-fulfilling prophecy spiral, 00:47:32.226 --> 00:47:42.496 where it's like the classic example of, that we believe the narratives that we, 00:47:43.306 --> 00:47:49.946 we continually expose ourselves to the narratives, for instance, in the media, that we already believe. 00:47:49.946 --> 00:47:50.328 Yes. 00:47:51.226 --> 00:47:56.962 And we won't expose ourselves to narratives that are on the opposite side of the spectrum 00:47:57.266 --> 00:48:00.077 than what we already believe because what we believe is right, 00:48:00.186 --> 00:48:02.660 so why would we expose ourself to the other? Yeah. 00:48:04.706 --> 00:48:11.096 I think that's dangerous. I think it doesn't actually make us more firm, 00:48:15.066 --> 00:48:19.306 or have more security in what we believe. So I would say to the person who is going through 00:48:19.495 --> 00:48:24.356 a period of deconstruction is to make the effort to sit with. 00:48:28.886 --> 00:48:36.646 And have honest conversation with someone who has maybe already gone through a period 00:48:36.646 --> 00:48:41.379 of deconstruction, but who may sit on the opposite side. 00:48:42.846 --> 00:48:48.869 Of the thing that you are believing or not believing or whatever. 00:48:49.391 --> 00:48:58.042 Yep. So that you can have an honest conversation and that nuance can be, nuance can enter into the room. 00:48:58.583 --> 00:49:13.446 Yeah. Or perspective can enter into the room. I feel like you're trying to avoid people who will just, yes, yes, like be yes men and 00:49:13.446 --> 00:49:18.180 nod and affirm in a really unhelpful like, kind of like, 00:49:18.298 --> 00:49:24.464 yes, us too, that we'll just like, and that does not necessarily have good guardrails on it. 00:49:24.646 --> 00:49:25.040 No. 00:49:25.486 --> 00:49:31.720 But you're also trying to avoid someone who is going to just want to shut you down. 00:49:32.046 --> 00:49:38.846 Yes. Like crush you a little bit, maybe try and pull you into line in a really forceful way. 00:49:38.846 --> 00:49:43.906 Yeah, well, I would say in particular, that was advice to people who are deconstructing, 00:49:43.906 --> 00:49:48.023 but maybe advice to parents of kids 00:49:48.311 --> 00:49:51.886 who are deconstructing is, when they enter that period, 00:49:51.886 --> 00:49:54.206 and if they have physical separation from you, 00:49:54.206 --> 00:49:55.774 they're at college or something like that, 00:49:56.686 --> 00:49:57.953 I'm going to tell you right now. 00:50:00.761 --> 00:50:05.411 The harder you push back on that, the further they're going to go. 00:50:07.900 --> 00:50:12.611 Well, it's a difficult truth to wrestle with because parents are wrestling with this truth 00:50:12.851 --> 00:50:18.451 at that stage is that their kids are not theirs and they're not kids. 00:50:19.333 --> 00:50:26.371 They're their own. They're their own individual person. And I say that as someone who's not a parent, but I hope, 00:50:26.371 --> 00:50:30.531 And I don't know. I don't know. I'm not a so I'm gonna say this with, 00:50:31.693 --> 00:50:39.651 Gentleness because I don't even know I'm not a parent But I think it's a truth that is really hard to hold into perspective when you raise kids, 00:50:40.569 --> 00:50:44.476 That even when they are little infants that you're holding them. They are, 00:50:45.656 --> 00:50:47.159 little individual people. 00:50:49.572 --> 00:50:57.771 They know it at no point do they stop being an extension of you and become an individual that that is always true. 00:50:58.340 --> 00:51:07.099 There needs to be some contextual deconstruction of raise up a child in the way he should go right and when they are old they will not depart from it 00:51:07.216 --> 00:51:10.091 which is just like a well I just have to raise them up in the way that they 00:51:10.091 --> 00:51:15.931 should go and then it will ostensibly remove their sense of free will and sin 00:51:16.128 --> 00:51:16.931 Yeah. 00:51:16.931 --> 00:51:22.916 So that they will go the way in which they've been told. 00:51:23.211 --> 00:51:27.351 When you compare that against the whole context and wisdom of scripture, it becomes pretty 00:51:27.351 --> 00:51:37.320 clear that I didn't grow up in the way I was told. 00:51:38.851 --> 00:51:40.992 And that's both in a negative and positive way. 00:51:42.883 --> 00:51:46.727 Like I chose to follow Jesus, where that necessarily wasn't like... 00:51:47.531 --> 00:51:50.051 It wasn't a foregone conclusion. It wasn't a foregone conclusion. 00:51:50.051 --> 00:51:54.691 That's not necessarily the way that I was raised. In fact, the signs would point 00:51:54.691 --> 00:51:56.729 towards a completely different conclusion. 00:51:57.771 --> 00:52:01.077 And the opposite is also true, because I have a will. 00:52:02.371 --> 00:52:06.131 And the Holy Spirit works in my life, and there's grace upon grace. 00:52:08.811 --> 00:52:13.611 And we're freeing individual people. So I would say to parents, and I am a parent, 00:52:13.611 --> 00:52:18.951 I'm not at that stage yet, but I'm also not without perspective. 00:52:18.951 --> 00:52:25.977 I'm like at like 20 years of perspective of seeing parents absolutely like just. 00:52:29.191 --> 00:52:34.251 Grip that steering wheel. Oh my gosh, like crazy. And I'm telling you right now, 00:52:34.251 --> 00:52:40.840 I've not seen a single example where the harder you grip, the better it gets. 00:52:44.152 --> 00:52:49.833 Well, you know, the thing is, is like, we've said that this is deconstruction is nothing new. It's, 00:52:50.402 --> 00:52:57.566 very old, right? I would even point and go back to the Reformation was its own form of deconstruction, 00:52:58.574 --> 00:53:03.522 right? The Protestant Reformation, the breaking off of the castes, right? So you want my short 00:53:03.522 --> 00:53:09.442 answer of why in the West, in particular, we deconstruct so much? Protestant Reformation. 00:53:09.836 --> 00:53:16.722 Yeah. Like, cause we are a, we are a Protestantism is a fruit of probably the 00:53:16.722 --> 00:53:21.202 most significant deconstruction that's ever happened apart from the deconstruction 00:53:21.202 --> 00:53:24.642 of the Jewish faith into the Christian faith. 00:53:24.682 --> 00:53:28.882 Right. Well, and that's an overstatement. That's an overstatement. 00:53:28.922 --> 00:53:36.014 Yeah. That's an oversimplification. But, um, but, but the point being made that like, you want to know why the 00:53:36.162 --> 00:53:38.751 Catholic Church has mostly stayed the way it's been. 00:53:38.922 --> 00:53:41.020 Eastern Orthodoxy has stayed the way it's been. 00:53:41.659 --> 00:53:46.115 It's because of the way they were informed. Whereas in Protestant Reformation, 00:53:46.367 --> 00:53:52.642 Protestantism is wide and varied and vastly different and continues to change and shift. 00:53:52.642 --> 00:53:54.298 And we have new denominations all the time. 00:53:54.757 --> 00:53:55.208 Why? 00:53:55.684 --> 00:53:59.753 Because we started as a Reformation or we started from a place of deconstruction. 00:54:00.492 --> 00:54:06.064 That's my quick little like social commentary as to why the West is the way it is. 00:54:08.362 --> 00:54:12.642 But I had something else I wanted to say. I can't remember what it is anymore. 00:54:13.962 --> 00:54:17.947 But there is, oh, all that to say, I would remind anyone who's like, 00:54:18.682 --> 00:54:25.762 if you are a parent and you're dealing with kids, like you at some point sowed wild oats. 00:54:26.202 --> 00:54:31.442 You were at some point like, you know, you like, I think back we can like probably 00:54:31.442 --> 00:54:38.002 biggest generational deconstruction would have been the hippie movement that I can think of in like, 00:54:38.962 --> 00:54:47.393 semi-recent history. Sure. You know, where every generation is wrestled with the questions of 00:54:47.681 --> 00:54:54.482 what I have received, what is good and what is not. And if something is not good, what can I do to, 00:54:55.136 --> 00:55:00.642 set that aside and build something better in its place? And I think the temptation of every 00:55:00.642 --> 00:55:07.282 generation is to think, we're the generation that got it right. And we have blind spots. 00:55:07.282 --> 00:55:14.402 There are things that I probably do not have right, will not have right. And the generation, 00:55:15.264 --> 00:55:19.423 that comes after me will do better than I did. But there's also things I think I 00:55:19.685 --> 00:55:25.922 hopefully do have right and the generation coming after me, hopefully carries those things on and 00:55:26.022 --> 00:55:31.202 maybe they will drop them, and I don't know. That's part of the trusting of faith and passing 00:55:31.202 --> 00:55:32.482 on of all of those things. 00:55:32.482 --> 00:55:35.033 Mhm. Mhm. Agreed. 00:55:39.679 --> 00:55:46.489 Anything else from you on this or no, I think that's probably enough Before I start saying things to get me in trouble. Um, 00:55:47.376 --> 00:55:50.265 But you know, we'd always love to be able to talk about, 00:55:53.002 --> 00:55:58.329 The issues that we talk about more specifically so if you're listening or watching and you're like 00:55:58.601 --> 00:56:04.169 I would like to hear some conversation that drills down a little bit deeper into this particular thing that you said, 00:56:05.129 --> 00:56:08.929 or whatever Send those questions to us. 00:56:08.929 --> 00:56:13.554 We have a texting mailbag line, 716-201-0507. 00:56:19.271 --> 00:56:25.209 And would love to hear your questions or your topics for us to talk about. 00:56:25.209 --> 00:56:29.409 You can also comment them on the video if you're watching on YouTube, 00:56:29.409 --> 00:56:34.409 or always share, like it, subscribe. 00:56:34.583 --> 00:56:48.169 Subscribe, hit all the buttons, you can accept the thumbs down one yeah and share this with your friends okay and we'll we'll catch you next week 00:56:48.169 --> 00:56:50.169 Yep, see you all next week.