Jason Altmire [00:00:05]:
Welcome to the Career Education Report podcast. I'm Jason Altmire. And we talk a lot about workforce development on this podcast and we have an interesting angle on it today, talking about state colleges and universities and how they factor into workforce training, working with employers and workforce development generally. Our guest is Dr. Charles Welch. He is the seventh president of the American Association of State Colleges and Universities, and he served 13 years as President of the Arkansas State University System immediately before then. And he has also been the past president of Henderson State University, which is in Arkansas. Dr. Welch, thank you for being with us.

Charles Welch [00:00:52]:
Well, thank you, Jason. It's great to be with you.

Jason Altmire [00:00:54]:
Let's start by talking about the association itself, because I don't think by the name. Many people understand exactly who you're representing and who your members are. So when we think about the American association of State Colleges and Universities, who are you representing?

Charles Welch [00:01:12]:
Well, askew, which is our acronym and how you may hear me refer to it today, represents the regional public university sector. That's 520 campuses nationally. There's a regional public university in every state except for the state of Wyoming. We educate about 70% of public undergraduate students. We produce two thirds of public baccalaureate degrees. We produce about two thirds of public graduate degrees. We produce upwards of 80% of teacher education degrees, health professions degrees. We have a large number of first generation students.

Charles Welch [00:01:50]:
About half of our students are students of color, large number of students who are low income. We have a lot of rural institutions. So we represent what's been known as the workhorses of higher education and institutions that tend to be the biggest drivers of social and economic mobility around the country. We cost less, we have lower debt loads than many institutions around the country, and we are more closely linked to our communities that we serve.

Jason Altmire [00:02:19]:
It's an interesting distinction. Regional public universities, what's the difference in the definition of a regional university versus what people might think of as a traditional state university?

Charles Welch [00:02:31]:
When you talk about regionals, the only separation would be from the flagships or the land grant institutions that tend to have a total statewide mission. But regional is misleading. Many of our campuses do educate international students, students from a wider footprint. But we like to say that about 70% of our students come from a 50 mile radius. So many of our students are from the region, they are educated there, they stay there, they work there. And we have a more direct focus on our regional communities and regional economies than perhaps an institution that has a larger footprint in their mission would have.

Jason Altmire [00:03:08]:
So when you think of a flagship university, let's use say Florida as an example, the University of Florida, I'm guessing, is not a member, but University of North Florida, West Florida.

Charles Welch [00:03:22]:
Absolutely. Florida Florida International Florida Gulf Coast University. Absolutely.

Jason Altmire [00:03:27]:
And it's that way across the states.

Charles Welch [00:03:30]:
Correct? Correct. And when I mentioned Wyoming, they only have one public university and it is the flagship university of Wyoming. And so that's the reason they don't have a regional public.

Jason Altmire [00:03:40]:
Right. And you have a really interesting background. You've led this association for a year and a half now. And you I talked about your leadership in academia as a university president, and you were president of the Arkansas State University System. But you also have been heavily involved in the association that you now lead, and you've been a member of a lot of civic organizations and served on the boards of a variety of organizations. So throughout your career in higher education, how has that informed the work that you're doing now?

Charles Welch [00:04:14]:
Sure. Well, you know, I actually started as a community college president and I was 31 years old, so definitely brought a non traditional approach and then moved to a regional public university and then, as you said, to the statewide system. And I got engaged with Askew in 2008 and then went on to serve on the board for six years, was chair of the board twice. And so I definitely had a strong familiarity with the association itself, the work that we do, the types of institutions that we serve. And then obviously having served as an RPU president as a system that had multiple regional public universities, it's given me some insight into the role of the association, what we can do better, how we can serve our campuses, and then having that understanding of the challenges that our presidents are facing. We're a presidential association. We certainly have programming that is available to everyone on the campus. But our primary focus is on serving the presidents and helping them to lead their universities.

Charles Welch [00:05:10]:
So having served in that capacity, having been engaged as a board member and now as the president of the association, that's really given me, I think, broad depth of experience about who we are, what we do, why we do it, and how we can do it better.

Jason Altmire [00:05:23]:
And your point of contact with your members is through the presidents of those universities. And of course, there's geographic differences in interests and issues and priorities. And we're going to talk about trade and technical programs and workforce development. Are there different regions of the country where that is a bigger issue than in others, or is it big all across the country?

Charles Welch [00:05:46]:
Well, it's big all across the country. There's no doubt about that. I mean, certainly depending on the state and what their workforce priorities are, Depending on the political realities of particular states, there can definitely be differences. One of the things that I'm very cautious of and careful about is not having one size fits all approaches to our policies. Just because we realize that we have rural campuses, we have urban campuses, we have small and large campuses, we have campuses in blue states and red states. And so there are a lot of different variations there. But a focus on workforce development and helping to serve and build the economies of the region really is across the board that we see in every one of our states and the vast majority, if not all of our campuses.

Jason Altmire [00:06:30]:
And we've seen a huge increase in interest in trade and technical programs. And this idea from the past that the appropriate path for everybody was that four year path, and if you somehow diverted from that, that you were taking the lesser option or doing something that you know was substandard to what others might be choosing, thankfully we're past that now and people recognize the importance of career and technical programs. Why do you think there has been such increased interest in trade and technical programs?

Charles Welch [00:07:02]:
Well, I mean, I think obviously as we look at the maturation of our economy and of our workforce, and we've seen changes that have led to different skill sets that are required for particular positions, the market's going to drive where some of that mindset is. We've also seen an increase in political considerations. We have a lot of policymakers who are intently focused on ensuring that the curriculum that a particular institution puts forth is focused on the workforce and making sure we're serving the needs. The ironic part of all of this, though, is when you talk to business and industry leaders, they also tell you, do not forget those soft skills or those durable skills. We want to make sure that we still have students who can communicate and problem solve and think critically and work collaboratively. And so, I mean, I think that there's really an enhanced focus on making sure that the careers that we are preparing students for are in alignment with what the economic and industry needs are of a particular region or of a particular state. And with obviously the cost and the consideration that families have, they want to make sure that what they're paying for is going to give them those opportunities to really have a maximum exposure to the best jobs and the best careers that will prepare them for, for lifetime of, of earnings and, and career.

Jason Altmire [00:08:19]:
So when you're thinking about the training and preparation that happens for these programs at your association, which again is regional state colleges and universities, public institutions, what are the types of programs that are most popular in your schools now?

Charles Welch [00:08:37]:
I will say that first of all, most of our institutions were founded as normal schools. And so we were founded as teacher education preparatory universities. And that certainly has continued. And so if you look at the footprints of where our campuses serve, many, many of the teachers that serve in those regions are graduates of our institutions. So we don't always think about teacher education when we talk about workforce. But clearly that's a very important one in many cases, particularly in rural communities. You know, districts may be your largest employers in the area. Health professions is another huge one.

Charles Welch [00:09:09]:
And I mentioned earlier that we produce a very large percentage of public health professions degrees. So whether it be nursing or whether it be other types of health professions, those are always in demand. Obviously, as we live longer and we have that baby boomer population, there's even greater need now than there ever was before, information technology or any technological related positions or areas. And that brings with it an entire different scope. Obviously there you can be looking at two year programs, training programs, all the way up to professional and graduate programs. Engineering is always one that we probably never can produce enough engineers to be able to serve in the communities that we have. So none of those answers are probably shocking to you. Obviously business is going to be there in accounting and some of your normal.

Charles Welch [00:09:58]:
But really when you think about the areas that our campuses tend to focus on, it tends to be, and again, this is a general statement, it's going to differ by the needs of a particular region. But teacher education, health professions, engineering and IT are always going to be among the very top programs of interest and demand.

Jason Altmire [00:10:13]:
And are these four year degrees that we're talking about baccalaureates?

Charles Welch [00:10:18]:
Yes, mainly. Now we certainly have institutions that offer associate's degrees, particularly if there is not a community college in the region that may need to do that. We have some that maybe offer certificate programs, but for the most part going to be baccalaureate degrees and graduate degrees. We also, as I said, produce 2/3 of public master's degrees in the countries at our institutions. So it's really every level. It just depends on again the region, what other opportunities and institutions are available and what the particular discipline area may be.

Jason Altmire [00:10:47]:
So we're not talking about from your institutions, the skilled trades, the welders, the truck drivers, H. Vac, things like that.

Charles Welch [00:10:55]:
You may have a campus here or there that has some things, but for the most part that is done at the community college level or in the private trade programs. We certainly partner with a lot of those institutions. Community college students who look to ultimately transfer and get a baccalaureate degree definitely move to Regional public universities more than any other sector. So we do a lot of partnerships with those programs, but for the most part, the traditional trade programs are going to be housed at the community colleges.

Jason Altmire [00:11:22]:
And what are the demographics of the type of students who would be interested in these programs at your schools?

Charles Welch [00:11:28]:
Yeah, so I think the answer to that question is yes, all of the above. I mean, certainly we have students who are directly out of high school, but our institutions also educate a large number of adult students, students who are wanting to return to college and maybe look at a different career opportunity, or perhaps students who had some college but no degree, decide to come back and finish that out. You know, one of the greatest misconceptions, particularly among policymakers, but also among the general public, is that the university student of today is 18 to 22 years old and lives in the residence hall. And that's just simply not the case anymore. I mean, we have students from all backgrounds and ages and different phases of their life and looking at different goals. And so it really, again, depends on the area. We have a lot of veterans at our institutions, and we serve those students. And so it depends on the institution, it depends on the region, but definitely we see students, and we have to be prepared to serve students across the age spectrum and across the.

Charles Welch [00:12:26]:
The points in their careers of where they are and what it is that they want to ultimately accomplish.

Jason Altmire [00:12:30]:
A problem that has hindered higher education, I think, in the past has been the lack of coordination with employers, the fact that schools were using the same curriculums year after year. And it got to the point where sometimes students were going through programs and being trained for jobs that existed five years ago but weren't going to be there five years from now? How do you work with employers? Where do they fit in? And are they involved in setting the curriculum, working with schools to identify the workforce needs in those regions?

Charles Welch [00:13:02]:
Most of our campuses have industry committees and advisory groups that help to advise on the curriculum and looking at not only what are we trying to prepare them for today, but what are we trying to prepare them for for ten years from now. Because the point you make is spot on. What we hear a lot from employers is, you know, we want you to help us ground them in the basic aspects of, you know, these technical proficiencies. But at the same time, we also want you to give them those underlying foundational skills, knowing that if we only. I like to use the analogy, this is my term of if we are only training a student in widget making 101 and five years from now, that widget is obsolete and the student can't adjust or adapt or think critically or be nimble in their career. We have probably failed that student. And so we have to try to find that perfect balance of the technical proficiencies with those underlying skills so that the student can adapt and adjust and move on to whatever that next career may be. They used to say when I was in college that the average student will change majors X number of times.

Charles Welch [00:14:07]:
Well, now it's really more students will change careers a certain number of times just because of the way that with technology, you know, we see those careers change. So we work very closely with the employers, get their feedback and their help because we want to make sure that we're serving them. We want to make sure that the students are as marketable as possible when they go out. We're not just preparing them for today's job, but we're preparing them for a lifetime of careers and skills.

Jason Altmire [00:14:33]:
And in our association, as you're aware, we represent the private career programs. Most of our members are for profit, but we do have a significant number of nonprofits as well. You referenced community colleges. I think both of our associations work with community colleges. But what are the ways in which regional institutions are different from private career colleges and from community colleges? What's the segment that exists in the different areas of those markets?

Charles Welch [00:15:01]:
A couple things, I think, like I say, one is the fact that when you look at cost, I mean, we're going to be a little bit more than a community college. We're likely going to be a little bit less than a private institution. And it's going to be sort of the nature of the way that we offer everything from certificates all the way up to doctoral degrees. So we have that wide spectrum that you don't often find at other institutions, institutional types, even the flagships and the land grants. Obviously being a state funded institution, there are some expectations there in terms of the role that we play, the mission that we have, where that focus lies, that's going to make us a little bit different than a private institution. Again, our focus tends to be on a smaller area. Now that's more similar to a community college. Some privates may have that.

Charles Welch [00:15:43]:
Some privates may have a much larger geographic footprint than they have. So, you know, there's similarities in some areas for sure, but there's also those differences. And I think the difference when it comes for us is we tend to be of the community, related to the community. Most of our students are placebo. They're not students that are going to. Even if they wanted to go elsewhere that they would have that opportunity. But we're also institutions that, you know, are very closely connected to our local schools, our local employers, our business and industry, and really understand the importance of that return on investment that we owe to all of those entities.

Jason Altmire [00:16:20]:
An example of a program that I think all three of those types of institutions would represent would be nursing. Cybersecurity would be another. So let's just say you're a student in one of those fields, you have an interest and an aptitude, you want to choose which is the right institution for you. Why would the student choose your institutions?

Charles Welch [00:16:43]:
Well, I think that, you know, obviously it depends on what the offerings are. Some of the two year institutions may only have an associate's degree in nursing and perhaps the student wants to get a BSN or they want to get an msn. Ultimately, it could be scholarship opportunities. It could be which one is closest to home, quite frankly. So I think it depends on largely sort of exactly what the student is looking for, where that best fit is available. And that fit can be from geographic considerations, financial considerations, again, the type of program. We may have programs that are different in length that maybe aren't the traditional 16 weeks, but it might be a five week or a seven week, or it may be hybrid or it may be online. So students have so many more choices today than they've had in the past.

Charles Welch [00:17:26]:
And so I think typically what students look for is they're looking for that cost. Obviously that's a major consideration for them. They're looking for the curriculum that really has the specific things that they're looking for, what they want. And it may be where the relationships are for their clinicals or where they're going to go and practice that. So there's a whole number of different issues. They're all good options. It's just a matter of what fits best for each individual student.

Jason Altmire [00:17:49]:
Would you say that there are established best practices for workforce training and career education programs?

Charles Welch [00:17:56]:
Yes, I mean, I think there are some. I think they're probably going to be more specific in terms of individual campuses. I don't think there's any like one template that you could lay out there and say if everybody does this nationwide, it's a best practice simply because again, the considerations may be so dramatically different for one region of the country to another, or maybe may be different with the ways that, you know, the needs of what the particular industry has. But I definitely think that there are sterling examples out there of institutions that are really excelling at serving their community. And propping up the workforce and giving students wonderful opportunities to have enriching careers after they graduate. And certainly we try to share those best practices with our membership and try to replicate those as much as we possibly can. We certainly have work to do. And I think one of the areas that we really need to be focused on is how can we better merge the traditional humanities and liberal arts with a more workforce based educational process and get sort of get the best of both worlds.

Charles Welch [00:18:57]:
I don't think they're mutually exclusive, it's not an either or situation. But we really need to find ways that we can embed more of the workforce programs into the traditional liberal arts and vice versa.

Jason Altmire [00:19:08]:
And what are the barriers for workforce training and career education both for schools and for students?

Charles Welch [00:19:14]:
Yeah, I mean, I think that obviously cost. It's been said many times, you know, so political science was my discipline, so I'll pick on it. You know, you could go into a political science class, you could put 300 people in there, you can hire one professor and it's a much less costly to teach that course as say it would a nursing program where a. You have to have more expensive equipment, you have to have the clinical situations and the partnerships you have to have. And you're inherently limited on how many students you can put in there. You can't put 300 in a nursing class because you've got to do clinicals and things of that nature. So certainly cost is a barrier and capacity is a barrier. Even if you have the money though, again, you have to have those partnerships, whether it's a clinical situation in health professions, whether it's an internship situation, perhaps in it or some of those where you really got to have that support from business and industry, if it is a program that requires very expensive equipment, you've got these startup costs that can be very significant that could take a long time to recoup.

Charles Welch [00:20:13]:
And then by the time you get to the point of recouping, you've got to replace that equipment and things disagreements between faculty and administration on the campuses in terms of what the curriculum should look like, those that are more traditionalists perhaps that are slow to want to change and respond when obviously we know business and industry is quickly changing on a daily basis. Political situations that I mentioned earlier and some of that intervention that comes in. So there's, there's a whole host of different barriers that are in place. And then certainly with the nature of some of our students that come to us with at risk characteristics, whether they're low income or whether they're first generation and trying to keep those students on the path and getting them to graduation again. And the workforce programs can be very demanding on a number of different fronts. So there's a number of barriers there. But at the same time, I think that it's the upside to the individual, it's the upside to the business and industry in the region is the upside to the institution in terms of the way that they're viewed by the general public and by policymakers that I think make workforce education so attractive across the board. And I think it's a reason why you're seeing more and more focus on that across the country.

Jason Altmire [00:21:25]:
And if somebody wanted to learn more about your association and the work that you're doing, especially on workforce development, how would they find you?

Charles Welch [00:21:33]:
You can just go to our website, www.askuaascu.org. and we have a whole host of information there. There's links to our member campuses. There's information about best practices. We have a site called Promising Practices and Telling Our Story that really talks about what's happening at some of our campuses out there, those that really are doing great work. And we'd be happy to connect anyone to those individual institutions. One of the things we're very focused on is scale and replication. When we do see those best practices and things that are working, hey, let's share these with other institutions.

Charles Welch [00:22:05]:
They may have to tweak them a little bit for their respective institution or region, but we certainly don't want to reinvent the wheel every time. And we want to be sort of the link between what's happening at our institutions and ways that we can help with social mobility, economic mobility, and certainly in workforce development.

Jason Altmire [00:22:22]:
Our guest today has been Dr. Charles Welch. He is the president of the American association of State colleges and universities. Dr. Welch, thank you for being with us.

Charles Welch [00:22:31]:
With us, Jason, thank you. Appreciate what you do. It's always great to be with you.

Jason Altmire [00:22:37]:
Thanks for joining me for this episode of the Career Education Report. Subscribe and rate us on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. For more information, visit our website at career.org and follow us on Twitter @CECUED. That's C-E-C-U-E-D. Thank you for listening.