WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.059 Mark: Mark Szymanski, back on the WP Minute. 00:00:02.710 --> 00:00:03.260 Matt Medeiros. 00:00:03.610 --> 00:00:04.990 This is always a pleasure, man. 00:00:05.040 --> 00:00:06.410 I feel like I'm saying that all the time. 00:00:06.699 --> 00:00:09.140 Matt: MJS in the room, there's always some excitement, right? 00:00:09.140 --> 00:00:13.419 When this guy shows up, you know there's some turmoil, at least in 00:00:13.420 --> 00:00:17.260 his head, that we're gonna, that we're gonna try to figure out. 00:00:17.270 --> 00:00:21.660 Uh, big topic is something that sort of hit the Twitter sphere. 00:00:21.660 --> 00:00:22.630 I did a video on it. 00:00:22.990 --> 00:00:25.400 Uh, let me pull up the old screen. 00:00:25.420 --> 00:00:26.980 I said, is this the future? 00:00:27.380 --> 00:00:29.890 Of WordPress and it's custom. 00:00:29.890 --> 00:00:30.950 Oh, let me pull up Daniel's tweet. 00:00:30.950 --> 00:00:31.550 That's what I meant to do. 00:00:31.550 --> 00:00:32.400 Pull up Daniel's tweet. 00:00:32.430 --> 00:00:33.870 Is this the future of WordPress? 00:00:34.830 --> 00:00:38.350 This is, um, something that the wordpress. 00:00:38.350 --> 00:00:40.279 com showed off the wordpress. 00:00:40.279 --> 00:00:41.680 com team showed off. 00:00:41.930 --> 00:00:44.650 It's called create content model. 00:00:44.919 --> 00:00:46.309 I demoed it. 00:00:46.349 --> 00:00:50.589 I showed it on the channel and I was like, I can get behind this 00:00:50.609 --> 00:00:54.870 custom fields, custom post types in the block editor debatable. 00:00:55.580 --> 00:00:57.509 If that's the canvas we need to use. 00:00:57.559 --> 00:00:58.239 And I was like. 00:00:58.660 --> 00:01:00.410 This is great for a person like me. 00:01:00.830 --> 00:01:02.660 Doesn't want to do like heavy development stuff. 00:01:02.660 --> 00:01:04.030 Doesn't want a big page builder around it. 00:01:04.030 --> 00:01:07.620 I was like, I can get behind this simplicity of custom 00:01:07.620 --> 00:01:08.920 fields and dynamic data. 00:01:09.470 --> 00:01:15.880 Um, before we start dissecting like the controversy around this, what was your 00:01:15.920 --> 00:01:19.999 original reaction when you saw the way it worked as somebody who's heavily, 00:01:19.999 --> 00:01:23.230 you know, invested in let's say Bricks and also a former Elementor user? 00:01:24.570 --> 00:01:27.650 Mark: Um, I mean, I think, I think it was Kevin. 00:01:27.700 --> 00:01:30.870 There was a lot of engagement on this and we'll get into all that sort of thing. 00:01:30.870 --> 00:01:34.370 But like on the surface, when I saw it, I think it was yesterday, right? 00:01:34.680 --> 00:01:36.150 Or it was very, very recently. 00:01:36.509 --> 00:01:40.849 Um, I want WordPress to succeed. 00:01:40.850 --> 00:01:42.119 I want it to continue to progress. 00:01:42.129 --> 00:01:43.340 And we talk about this stuff all the time. 00:01:43.380 --> 00:01:45.890 I don't use Gutenberg as much as other people. 00:01:45.900 --> 00:01:48.500 Like I'm, I'm in the bricks world, still page builder world and everything. 00:01:48.500 --> 00:01:52.269 So I'm like not super tied to the block editor and don't use it too much. 00:01:52.550 --> 00:01:54.910 Again, as much as other people do with the block systems and everything. 00:01:55.190 --> 00:01:58.310 But I saw this and I was like, this is amazing because I really 00:01:58.310 --> 00:02:03.080 appreciate like, you know, it's not the core team, I guess it's wordpress. 00:02:03.080 --> 00:02:06.339 com, but the people that are like changing the aspects of like actual, 00:02:06.390 --> 00:02:09.079 what we would kind of call core WordPress really appreciate this. 00:02:09.089 --> 00:02:10.040 It seemed awesome. 00:02:10.359 --> 00:02:13.450 I will say that my initial reaction, I think, again, I replied 00:02:13.450 --> 00:02:16.880 to Twitter, uh, on, uh, on X, I think I replied to Kevin's. 00:02:17.280 --> 00:02:18.470 Repost of it or something. 00:02:18.899 --> 00:02:22.079 I was like, eh, I mean, this is amazing that we're moving forward on this. 00:02:22.109 --> 00:02:22.640 I love that. 00:02:22.640 --> 00:02:23.350 I really love that. 00:02:23.549 --> 00:02:25.489 It's a little bit of a, the UX, right? 00:02:25.489 --> 00:02:26.609 Like I watched your video of it. 00:02:26.609 --> 00:02:28.750 I watched, um, I think it was Brian cords, right? 00:02:28.769 --> 00:02:31.160 In this video, uh, in the tweet, like kind of go through it. 00:02:31.539 --> 00:02:34.929 I'm not like completely sold on the way that it was implemented, but I totally get 00:02:34.929 --> 00:02:36.429 that it was like the first crack at it. 00:02:36.459 --> 00:02:38.720 I'm not, I'm not throwing any casting any stones there. 00:02:38.720 --> 00:02:41.320 So at a hundred percent, uh, wanted to see it evolve. 00:02:41.739 --> 00:02:44.860 Um, so that was kind of like my overall take on it. 00:02:44.869 --> 00:02:46.630 Really love the direction and the concept. 00:02:47.330 --> 00:02:49.550 The UI and UX of it could be a little different. 00:02:49.810 --> 00:02:53.840 We could have a separate discussion about that, but that has kind of slightly gone 00:02:53.840 --> 00:02:58.069 by the wayside, so to speak, with some of the new things that have come out today. 00:02:58.440 --> 00:03:00.799 So, but I mean, obviously you made the video on it, but 00:03:00.799 --> 00:03:01.599 what were your thoughts too? 00:03:01.929 --> 00:03:07.299 Matt: I mean, this sort of goes back to why, um, I don't get as animated 00:03:07.299 --> 00:03:11.519 about like, uh, Gutenberg or the site editor or like the whole concept 00:03:11.519 --> 00:03:15.204 of where we're headed, because I do think it's for, um, It's this life, 00:03:15.234 --> 00:03:16.564 lifelong debate that we've always had. 00:03:16.564 --> 00:03:20.424 Like, that, that kind of interface, as challenging as it can be for 00:03:20.424 --> 00:03:25.734 somebody who is used to Elementor, Bricks, or just a power developer, and 00:03:25.734 --> 00:03:28.034 you look at it and you're like, ah, this doesn't have all the features. 00:03:28.254 --> 00:03:29.724 This doesn't have all the things I need. 00:03:30.045 --> 00:03:34.885 I don't mind it as an end user because for the most part, it's giving me 00:03:35.114 --> 00:03:39.974 80 to 85 percent of what I need to make a website with a given theme. 00:03:40.299 --> 00:03:40.569 Right? 00:03:40.619 --> 00:03:42.329 I'm not selling websites anymore. 00:03:42.339 --> 00:03:44.209 I'm not consulting on websites anymore. 00:03:44.479 --> 00:03:49.299 And if I were, I wouldn't use, let's say 2024, um, and, uh, 00:03:49.380 --> 00:03:53.339 sort of base site editor tools that a core WordPress gives me. 00:03:53.799 --> 00:03:56.969 But as an enthusiast, I'm like, I like it. 00:03:57.019 --> 00:03:57.959 I like what I got here. 00:03:58.049 --> 00:04:00.259 I'm not overly, like, annoyed by it. 00:04:01.339 --> 00:04:06.730 And when I saw this, this was like the closest thing that said simplicity 00:04:06.769 --> 00:04:08.480 plus power at the same time. 00:04:08.629 --> 00:04:09.189 Build. 00:04:10.135 --> 00:04:15.205 Like design what my custom post type is going to look like, and then assign 00:04:15.564 --> 00:04:18.865 these little blocks as my dynamic fields. 00:04:19.044 --> 00:04:24.845 And I was like, hell yeah, this is great from the enthusiast, maybe even 00:04:24.845 --> 00:04:27.434 power level user that I am these days. 00:04:29.185 --> 00:04:33.145 And I liked it, uh, and I, but I can also understand that it's not for everybody, 00:04:33.145 --> 00:04:36.504 but you know, that's the biggest challenge with WordPress is it's like, 00:04:36.735 --> 00:04:39.455 it's trying to be for everybody, but also not for everybody at the same time. 00:04:39.805 --> 00:04:43.154 Um, from the entry level point, I was like, yep, I'm, I'm sold. 00:04:43.645 --> 00:04:44.434 Uh, I like it. 00:04:44.984 --> 00:04:45.644 And I. 00:04:47.020 --> 00:04:50.500 Originally, we were going back and forth in, uh, our Slack DMs. 00:04:51.060 --> 00:04:54.960 And originally, like when you were saying, Hey, this thing isn't coming 00:04:54.960 --> 00:04:59.109 to, uh, this is, you know, this is not going to come to WordPress. 00:04:59.110 --> 00:05:03.549 And my initial reaction to that was, well, too late, it's already out there. 00:05:03.789 --> 00:05:06.464 And the concept is out there. 00:05:06.735 --> 00:05:10.815 And in this world of open source, I'm thinking positively going, well, the 00:05:10.815 --> 00:05:13.015 concepts out there now, even if wordpress. 00:05:13.015 --> 00:05:13.775 com said, you know what? 00:05:13.775 --> 00:05:15.025 We're not going to build this anymore. 00:05:15.895 --> 00:05:18.065 I was like, well, the concepts out there, people are seeing it. 00:05:18.065 --> 00:05:19.575 They're experiencing, they're reacting to it. 00:05:19.575 --> 00:05:21.344 It's a very popular video on my channel. 00:05:21.975 --> 00:05:26.795 Uh, uh, Daniel's tweet has 21, 000 views, a lot of engagement. 00:05:26.965 --> 00:05:29.195 It made it sound like things were, were coming. 00:05:29.735 --> 00:05:34.875 Um, but we started to get some information behind the scenes that it's not coming. 00:05:35.935 --> 00:05:37.284 And I said something like. 00:05:38.440 --> 00:05:40.660 But the, the, it's out there now. 00:05:40.660 --> 00:05:43.230 Like this, this is an influential thing. 00:05:43.230 --> 00:05:45.810 Look how excited people are for this concept. 00:05:46.600 --> 00:05:48.150 How do we not unsee this? 00:05:48.970 --> 00:05:49.299 You know? 00:05:49.580 --> 00:05:53.849 And if we can't unsee it, that's weird because if a lot of people 00:05:53.849 --> 00:06:01.389 are liking it, why wouldn't we use this or some iteration of it? 00:06:02.570 --> 00:06:02.730 Right. 00:06:02.730 --> 00:06:04.060 And that might be a challenging part. 00:06:06.520 --> 00:06:06.860 Yeah. 00:06:06.860 --> 00:06:08.580 Daniel's tweet sort of promoting this. 00:06:08.670 --> 00:06:12.885 It, it, It has caused some confusion for sure, because you see it, you're 00:06:12.885 --> 00:06:16.075 amped up, I'm amped up, and then sort of a rug pull at the end of the day. 00:06:16.905 --> 00:06:17.005 That's a 00:06:17.005 --> 00:06:17.545 Mark: good way to put it. 00:06:17.595 --> 00:06:20.835 Um, yeah, so I want to address one thing, and then we can dive into that. 00:06:20.845 --> 00:06:24.965 The, the one thing I would say is that I still don't have clarity, maybe 00:06:24.965 --> 00:06:27.784 some people do, on what actually, because this is part of my tweet in 00:06:27.784 --> 00:06:31.815 there, like, the second point when I was talking about like the UX, like, 00:06:32.195 --> 00:06:36.985 I and you and a lot of people that watch like our content and are in this 00:06:36.985 --> 00:06:40.594 all the time, we are absolutely one audience, this is not a new conversation. 00:06:40.975 --> 00:06:41.725 We're one audience. 00:06:41.755 --> 00:06:44.865 If even if we don't like, even the people that don't like, like the 00:06:44.865 --> 00:06:48.335 Gutenberg editor, for instance, and that whole experience, most of 00:06:48.335 --> 00:06:52.014 them are in the, in the, the weeds of WordPress to a certain degree. 00:06:52.015 --> 00:06:54.394 Even if they use a page builder, they could figure it out if 00:06:54.395 --> 00:06:55.785 they really wanted to, right. 00:06:56.015 --> 00:06:59.394 But there's this other, this other, these other, uh, you know, this other 00:06:59.394 --> 00:07:03.015 sect of users that are like DIYers that we talk about a lot, right. 00:07:03.495 --> 00:07:07.755 I actually want the information and I don't know if it's possible, 00:07:07.955 --> 00:07:10.365 like to if like, when we say, Hey. 00:07:11.040 --> 00:07:13.980 You know, this is a good, simple way, but gives them power. 00:07:13.980 --> 00:07:16.870 Like would other people understand like how to use it? 00:07:16.920 --> 00:07:20.699 Like I, maybe I just don't know enough about UX, like, you know, the, the, the 00:07:20.699 --> 00:07:24.100 methodology and of, of like good UX. 00:07:24.100 --> 00:07:26.449 Cause I think, I feel like I do, but I look at it and I'm just like, I'm 00:07:26.449 --> 00:07:30.640 confused, but I would love to see like, you know, 50 DIY wires at like 00:07:30.640 --> 00:07:33.030 a word camp or something, try to figure this out and like know if they 00:07:33.030 --> 00:07:35.300 were, if they were going to do it, that it's a separate conversation. 00:07:35.860 --> 00:07:39.160 Um, but that would be my, my thought process going back to it, because I 00:07:39.160 --> 00:07:40.690 don't know if we can speculate that. 00:07:41.505 --> 00:07:43.375 A lay person can figure these things out. 00:07:43.375 --> 00:07:45.155 Like, cause I don't, I don't know. 00:07:45.585 --> 00:07:46.284 That's just a separate thing. 00:07:47.044 --> 00:07:50.555 Going back to it, I think that, but you should also 00:07:50.555 --> 00:07:54.375 Matt: preface it with this was built in like two weeks as like a prototype. 00:07:55.255 --> 00:07:58.944 Uh, it certainly was far from like a polished, it was far from a 00:07:58.944 --> 00:08:00.374 Mark: polished product for sure. 00:08:00.375 --> 00:08:00.995 100%. 00:08:01.145 --> 00:08:05.224 Um, I know what I know would have, I don't, I don't even know 00:08:05.224 --> 00:08:06.245 how to speak on this though. 00:08:06.255 --> 00:08:08.305 Cause like I'm saying like, I know it would have continued to 00:08:08.305 --> 00:08:09.804 evolve or will continue to evolve. 00:08:09.815 --> 00:08:10.034 But. 00:08:10.505 --> 00:08:12.515 Let's, let's table that and let's come back to the, to 00:08:12.515 --> 00:08:13.175 what we're talking about here. 00:08:13.175 --> 00:08:15.265 Cause we don't actually know technically right now the future. 00:08:15.265 --> 00:08:16.435 There's a lot of different information out there. 00:08:16.875 --> 00:08:20.795 Uh, at the top of this, what happened was like, you know, Daniel 00:08:21.054 --> 00:08:23.264 who is correct me on his role. 00:08:23.325 --> 00:08:24.325 See the head of wordpress. 00:08:24.325 --> 00:08:24.555 com? 00:08:24.955 --> 00:08:25.205 Matt: Yeah. 00:08:25.764 --> 00:08:26.064 Mark: Okay. 00:08:26.405 --> 00:08:27.645 So like there's wordpress. 00:08:27.645 --> 00:08:28.394 com, wordpress. 00:08:28.395 --> 00:08:28.625 org. 00:08:28.974 --> 00:08:32.635 And I've heard in the past that sometimes things go, you would 00:08:32.645 --> 00:08:34.345 think they flow the other way from. 00:08:34.544 --> 00:08:34.945 org to. 00:08:35.145 --> 00:08:36.385 com, but actually it's the other way. 00:08:36.385 --> 00:08:38.145 Sometimes I think Brian cords has mentioned that. 00:08:38.145 --> 00:08:38.674 I think he did. 00:08:38.674 --> 00:08:41.284 He mentioned that in your most recent one, the book of knowledge video. 00:08:41.315 --> 00:08:44.754 I feel like I've heard it in there, but so, so that's interesting, right? 00:08:44.754 --> 00:08:48.335 It's going from the commercialized thing down to the, uh, you know, the open 00:08:48.335 --> 00:08:49.605 source platform for everybody to use. 00:08:49.615 --> 00:08:50.115 That's awesome. 00:08:50.125 --> 00:08:50.795 I love seeing that. 00:08:51.235 --> 00:08:53.765 Um, and in this case, like it's a really cool idea. 00:08:54.285 --> 00:08:56.075 That they have tried to do this. 00:08:56.095 --> 00:08:59.135 And again, everyone was, I mean, this is the most engagement I've seen 00:08:59.135 --> 00:09:01.355 on a, on a feature in, in a while. 00:09:01.415 --> 00:09:02.485 I like, it was unbelievable. 00:09:02.785 --> 00:09:04.725 Like, cause it, cause it, this is, this is like. 00:09:05.040 --> 00:09:08.430 You know, you know, Maddie Eastwood, me and Brendan O'Connell used to have, 00:09:08.600 --> 00:09:11.339 we still do, but it's a little on high as this bridge builders concept, right? 00:09:11.339 --> 00:09:12.339 Of like bringing people together. 00:09:12.550 --> 00:09:16.479 This is one of those concepts that does exactly that because you have 00:09:16.480 --> 00:09:18.269 like power users, you have lay people. 00:09:18.550 --> 00:09:20.660 And again, I'm not, no disrespect when I say these types of things, but like 00:09:20.660 --> 00:09:23.459 I'm saying, you have different types of audiences and they can all come together 00:09:23.459 --> 00:09:24.310 and they can be like, Hey, you know what? 00:09:24.740 --> 00:09:27.030 Gutenberg is not my favorite thing, but this is awesome that they're 00:09:27.030 --> 00:09:29.170 actually putting this in there, regardless of what you think of the 00:09:29.170 --> 00:09:30.430 implementation, the UX and all that. 00:09:30.430 --> 00:09:31.360 It's awesome that it's happening. 00:09:31.790 --> 00:09:32.850 And that was kind of in that camp. 00:09:33.460 --> 00:09:38.290 So then it, I mean, it goes wildfire, like it's on X. 00:09:38.320 --> 00:09:39.599 We looked at the stats, right? 00:09:39.599 --> 00:09:41.339 It's got like 20, 000 views. 00:09:41.529 --> 00:09:45.030 It's got almost 50 reposts, ton of likes and everything like that. 00:09:45.490 --> 00:09:47.640 Um, I think Brian, you yourself made a video. 00:09:47.670 --> 00:09:50.200 I don't know if Brian made, well, he was in a live stream. 00:09:50.260 --> 00:09:51.850 I think he's doing a live stream today. 00:09:51.950 --> 00:09:52.100 Exactly. 00:09:52.825 --> 00:09:54.834 I'm interested to see that. 00:09:55.265 --> 00:09:56.685 Um, and then. 00:09:57.905 --> 00:10:01.694 It, I mean, it, it, it, it went, if you're in all these different circles, I know 00:10:01.694 --> 00:10:02.895 you're not a big Facebook guy, right? 00:10:03.155 --> 00:10:06.395 But if you're in all the different circles, like it's in every Facebook 00:10:06.405 --> 00:10:08.384 group, it's in every private community. 00:10:08.395 --> 00:10:10.174 Like it was that big of a thing. 00:10:10.184 --> 00:10:12.640 People were sharing it, like, Wildfire, like I said. 00:10:13.260 --> 00:10:16.209 And it's just funny now, because now we've gotten some information and 00:10:16.209 --> 00:10:19.719 they're like, you know what, that actually is kind of more of just like 00:10:19.719 --> 00:10:21.650 a prototype, feel it out type thing. 00:10:21.709 --> 00:10:24.099 We have no plans whatsoever to actually bring this into. 00:10:24.339 --> 00:10:25.519 com or doc or, or. 00:10:25.760 --> 00:10:26.000 org. 00:10:26.459 --> 00:10:26.979 And. 00:10:27.270 --> 00:10:30.349 Again, there's data views and I'm not, like, super educated on that whole 00:10:30.349 --> 00:10:35.079 situation yet, but it's just a very interesting way because, again, we 00:10:35.079 --> 00:10:38.280 love the thing, it's gotten a lot of attention, but then we get that, that 00:10:38.280 --> 00:10:41.170 kind of news there that it's not, there's no real plans or anything like that. 00:10:41.189 --> 00:10:44.509 It almost, not only it's like, not only it's like we're not sure where to go, 00:10:44.550 --> 00:10:47.719 it's like, we didn't even, like, we didn't even really want it to go anywhere. 00:10:48.125 --> 00:10:48.905 But it was out there. 00:10:49.074 --> 00:10:50.985 Last point I'll make on this, and I'll kick it back over to you, 00:10:51.365 --> 00:10:52.975 is all of that is well and good. 00:10:53.005 --> 00:10:54.334 You guys, like, do whatever you want. 00:10:54.555 --> 00:10:57.774 All I'm saying is, when you have a situation like we do in WordPress, 00:10:57.775 --> 00:11:01.035 where we definitely have some kind of like factions going on here, and 00:11:01.035 --> 00:11:04.324 you put something out like this, and again, I want to preface, I don't 00:11:04.324 --> 00:11:05.745 think anybody did anything intentional. 00:11:05.775 --> 00:11:06.655 There's no malintent. 00:11:07.295 --> 00:11:09.235 I'm not, I'm not, I'm just, I'm just observing. 00:11:10.025 --> 00:11:14.635 You can't even lead like even unintentionally leading people on 00:11:14.685 --> 00:11:18.685 is going to end up backfiring in the language and the tweets in the 00:11:18.695 --> 00:11:21.244 github Repo and everything like that. 00:11:21.465 --> 00:11:26.304 It makes it seem like this is next like like it's it's they're asking questions 00:11:26.304 --> 00:11:28.175 Like is this the future wordpress. 00:11:28.205 --> 00:11:28.635 com? 00:11:29.315 --> 00:11:32.215 Reposts it and like with eyeballs like oh look what's coming like you 00:11:32.215 --> 00:11:36.760 can't do that if you didn't have plans That is just gonna piss people off 00:11:36.770 --> 00:11:38.430 when they were completely with you. 00:11:38.790 --> 00:11:41.710 It's just mind numbing that this was a decision that was kind of made. 00:11:41.710 --> 00:11:43.320 Again, I don't think it was intentional. 00:11:43.490 --> 00:11:48.609 I'm just saying, like, I feel like this is, these types of weird, like, like, 00:11:49.369 --> 00:11:52.920 slight missteps, maybe we could call them, are like, just, this is, this is 00:11:52.920 --> 00:11:55.720 the stuff that's like, how does this, like, what, what, what happened here? 00:11:55.750 --> 00:11:57.060 Israel, I'm just looking for answers. 00:11:57.150 --> 00:11:57.970 Maybe you have some answers. 00:11:57.990 --> 00:11:58.600 Matt, you tell me. 00:11:59.730 --> 00:12:01.715 Matt: Yeah, I mean, um, Few things. 00:12:01.715 --> 00:12:04.835 So, uh, Daniel Bach, Uber, who heads wordpress. 00:12:04.835 --> 00:12:10.815 com now, uh, is one of the most, uh, you know, intelligent WordPress developers 00:12:10.985 --> 00:12:15.645 I've ever known years and years and years ago when I was way ahead of my skis on a 00:12:15.675 --> 00:12:20.925 project that I was working on my agency, I knew him from his early days in WordPress 00:12:21.395 --> 00:12:28.124 and he was the first developer that I worked with where I was like, I need help. 00:12:28.275 --> 00:12:30.335 I have no idea how to fix this client's website. 00:12:30.685 --> 00:12:33.135 Uh, just random, like we built some custom thing. 00:12:33.425 --> 00:12:36.045 This is like my early days and he was like, I can fix it for you. 00:12:36.045 --> 00:12:37.065 It's 300 an hour. 00:12:37.085 --> 00:12:40.924 And I was at the time I was like, Oh my God, I don't even make that much money. 00:12:41.905 --> 00:12:44.744 And, but if you know the answer, I'm going to pay you. 00:12:45.044 --> 00:12:46.775 And I said, yes. 00:12:46.805 --> 00:12:48.364 And he fixed it in like 15 minutes. 00:12:48.364 --> 00:12:49.485 He's like, you don't have to pay me the whole thing. 00:12:49.495 --> 00:12:51.405 And I was like, no, I'm going to pay you the whole thing because 00:12:51.425 --> 00:12:52.845 you fixed this problem for me. 00:12:53.075 --> 00:12:54.205 A super intelligent guy. 00:12:54.255 --> 00:12:57.615 Um, you know, kudos to him for rising in the ranks of, uh, in the 00:12:57.615 --> 00:12:59.235 WordPress world as head of wordpress. 00:12:59.235 --> 00:12:59.485 com. 00:12:59.485 --> 00:12:59.925 Okay. 00:13:00.250 --> 00:13:05.430 Now, this project, like you said, is, at least on my 00:13:05.430 --> 00:13:06.660 channel, is doing phenomenally. 00:13:06.660 --> 00:13:10.499 Almost 2100 views, 120 likes, and the likes is really what I'm looking at. 00:13:10.499 --> 00:13:11.350 120 likes. 00:13:11.910 --> 00:13:14.070 is a pretty intense ratio. 00:13:14.070 --> 00:13:15.940 A lot of people are liking this, right? 00:13:15.940 --> 00:13:18.690 Usually, if I put out something that people don't like, I get a lot of 00:13:18.690 --> 00:13:21.619 downvotes, and they're downvoting me because they don't like it. 00:13:21.800 --> 00:13:23.590 They don't like the WordPress thing that I launched. 00:13:23.600 --> 00:13:27.910 It comes in, uh, you know, in the last, whatever, 30 ish days or 60 ish days. 00:13:27.910 --> 00:13:32.860 The only other one to come close to that is when I talked about WordPress Studio. 00:13:32.870 --> 00:13:35.765 Actually, this goes back almost, Yeah, four months back in April, 00:13:36.075 --> 00:13:40.995 uh, WordPress studio for local development on Mac has 230 likes. 00:13:41.035 --> 00:13:42.255 A lot of people like that app. 00:13:42.295 --> 00:13:46.354 And I look at those as metrics to say, literally, do you like this? 00:13:46.355 --> 00:13:48.555 And I know the sentiment of the WordPress world. 00:13:48.755 --> 00:13:49.944 They don't like the video. 00:13:50.134 --> 00:13:51.574 They like what they're seeing. 00:13:51.905 --> 00:13:56.395 Um, that's the, the weird dichotomy I'm in as a WordPress content creator. 00:13:56.895 --> 00:13:57.365 Um, 00:13:59.365 --> 00:14:03.455 I think the issue, uh, cause originally when I saw, I was, had a super busy 00:14:03.465 --> 00:14:07.005 morning, bunch of meetings, I actually missed the MediaCore meeting, because I 00:14:07.005 --> 00:14:08.385 had a bunch of Gravity Forms meetings. 00:14:08.825 --> 00:14:12.875 Um, when I saw you messaging me, and I saw a bunch of stuff online, 00:14:12.985 --> 00:14:18.145 originally I was thinking, Oh, Mark's gonna be upset, because he's not gonna, 00:14:18.165 --> 00:14:20.265 he's gonna say, Why is WordPress. 00:14:20.265 --> 00:14:21.255 com doing this? 00:14:22.045 --> 00:14:24.410 And in my head, I didn't even make that 00:14:24.410 --> 00:14:25.750 Mark: connection at first, to be honest with you. 00:14:25.920 --> 00:14:26.270 Yeah. 00:14:26.270 --> 00:14:27.750 Like, I was just happy to see something. 00:14:27.760 --> 00:14:28.610 I was happy, honestly. 00:14:28.860 --> 00:14:29.220 Matt: Yeah. 00:14:29.260 --> 00:14:33.249 In my head, I was thinking, well, you know, this is just a splash. 00:14:33.250 --> 00:14:37.600 And even if it's like, not them doing it, like I, like, as I was just saying, 00:14:38.530 --> 00:14:42.480 I thought it, it would still represent what the future could look like. 00:14:42.480 --> 00:14:52.335 Um, so I have no other label for this other than, uh, Uh, Yeah, it's 00:14:52.335 --> 00:15:00.565 a, it's a fumble publicly because it's like I saw and I was excited. 00:15:00.635 --> 00:15:01.225 You saw it. 00:15:01.225 --> 00:15:02.124 You were excited. 00:15:02.225 --> 00:15:03.145 All these other people see it. 00:15:03.154 --> 00:15:04.065 They're excited. 00:15:04.585 --> 00:15:06.194 Um, it is, it's a fumble. 00:15:06.194 --> 00:15:09.524 It's an unfortunate fumble because I thought it was leading 00:15:09.525 --> 00:15:10.524 down the right direction. 00:15:10.525 --> 00:15:15.105 Uh, and yeah, this one, this one stings. 00:15:15.315 --> 00:15:18.145 This one stings, even though it was just a little two week experiment 00:15:18.145 --> 00:15:19.265 and we were just seeing some things. 00:15:19.295 --> 00:15:20.525 I was just excited. 00:15:20.885 --> 00:15:24.025 Even if it didn't end up in that sort of exact way that we 00:15:24.025 --> 00:15:27.345 were playing with it, because no software does two weeks into a demo. 00:15:28.290 --> 00:15:30.180 I was like, well, we got a direction. 00:15:30.320 --> 00:15:33.930 It's it's going to come just when it could be two years, three years. 00:15:33.970 --> 00:15:37.149 I don't know, but this looks like a direction I'm, I could get behind. 00:15:37.550 --> 00:15:41.920 So certainly a fumble, uh, and an unfortunate one from the. 00:15:41.949 --> 00:15:42.840 com side of things. 00:15:43.360 --> 00:15:44.779 Mark: Well, there's two things that I'm seeing here. 00:15:44.779 --> 00:15:48.370 One, if we, if we take a step back, we kind of like on, you know, we, 00:15:48.390 --> 00:15:51.200 we look at the situation, but we take a different approach to it. 00:15:51.890 --> 00:15:54.320 We could say, all right, maybe it was like more of a situation where. 00:15:54.660 --> 00:15:56.840 The dot com team, incredibly talented people. 00:15:57.120 --> 00:16:00.370 None of, none of anything I say here is really to criticize anyone. 00:16:00.370 --> 00:16:01.750 I'm just, I'm again, trying to observe. 00:16:02.510 --> 00:16:05.840 We could say that they were really just extremely excited that they put 00:16:05.840 --> 00:16:07.670 this together in two weeks and they just wanted to get it out there. 00:16:07.680 --> 00:16:10.449 Daniel, Daniel puts a tweet up there and he's like, Hey, look at this stuff. 00:16:10.449 --> 00:16:10.889 We just did. 00:16:10.890 --> 00:16:11.439 This is awesome. 00:16:11.439 --> 00:16:11.669 Right. 00:16:12.040 --> 00:16:14.380 But the problem is like. 00:16:15.015 --> 00:16:17.345 We, I, I don't, I don't know if this is the right way to describe this. 00:16:17.355 --> 00:16:21.415 We are outside the realm of like playing around at this point with WordPress. 00:16:21.425 --> 00:16:25.935 Like people utilize this thing so heavily and professionally, especially in a, 00:16:25.935 --> 00:16:27.825 in an, in an area like this, right? 00:16:28.145 --> 00:16:31.784 This is like you, if you post something that is impactful like this, people are 00:16:31.785 --> 00:16:36.115 going to take this to every corner of the, of the WordPress community on the 00:16:36.115 --> 00:16:38.635 internet and they're going to tell, Hey, they're going to shout it from rooftops. 00:16:38.655 --> 00:16:42.974 I mean, I literally had people not like not necessarily DMing me, but in, in 00:16:43.980 --> 00:16:47.579 In these different communities, like so excited because of all the recent 00:16:47.579 --> 00:16:50.480 stuff that has happened and all, and all the announcements that have been 00:16:50.480 --> 00:16:52.640 made, like etch and all this other stuff, like, they're like, Oh man, 00:16:52.650 --> 00:16:54.389 WordPress is like, they're taking it. 00:16:54.459 --> 00:16:55.939 Like they're, they're, they're understanding. 00:16:55.939 --> 00:16:57.669 They're like, it's a race now. 00:16:57.810 --> 00:17:01.609 Like I literally had people say that and I'm like, this is, it's awesome. 00:17:01.680 --> 00:17:02.119 I love it. 00:17:02.150 --> 00:17:04.700 I love more competition, not even competition, but I just love more 00:17:04.700 --> 00:17:05.780 people trying to do cool stuff. 00:17:05.780 --> 00:17:05.990 Right. 00:17:06.430 --> 00:17:12.079 And then a day later we, we get like the, and again, this is the second thing. 00:17:12.429 --> 00:17:13.069 Maybe. 00:17:13.875 --> 00:17:14.944 They didn't have plans for it. 00:17:14.995 --> 00:17:17.355 They were just kind of like testing the waters out and now 00:17:17.355 --> 00:17:18.454 it's like, Oh, everybody loved it. 00:17:18.485 --> 00:17:19.425 Okay, now we'll do it. 00:17:19.435 --> 00:17:22.275 I haven't heard that yet, but that could be the next thing. 00:17:22.525 --> 00:17:24.595 But the fact that like, we're going to, we're going to release 00:17:24.605 --> 00:17:26.885 something like this, we're not even going to pose it as a question. 00:17:26.885 --> 00:17:29.375 We're going to pose it as like a marketing, like, Hey, this is next. 00:17:29.794 --> 00:17:33.525 And then to kind of like backpedal a little bit, maybe fumble that 00:17:33.585 --> 00:17:37.265 fumble it slightly like that is just how you like completely confuse 00:17:37.265 --> 00:17:38.605 the shit out of your user base. 00:17:39.480 --> 00:17:42.299 And then like, how, how are we supposed to, you know what I mean? 00:17:42.300 --> 00:17:43.570 That's just kind of the vibe that I get. 00:17:43.770 --> 00:17:47.789 And, and the last thing is like, coming from com, I know like probably not a lot 00:17:47.789 --> 00:17:53.240 of like, lay people, again, so to speak, follow com, but I would, I would feel 00:17:53.240 --> 00:17:57.509 like the, if you had to like guess, and maybe I'm wrong here, my hypothesis would 00:17:57.519 --> 00:18:00.079 be, who's gonna follow com versus org? 00:18:00.079 --> 00:18:04.450 I feel like com is more of like, like, you know, end users potentially, like 00:18:04.450 --> 00:18:05.770 going to com and doing that type of thing. 00:18:05.780 --> 00:18:06.630 I don't necessarily know. 00:18:07.000 --> 00:18:07.630 Exactly. 00:18:07.660 --> 00:18:10.210 I'm, I'm, I'm speculating, but if you were gonna post something on.com, 00:18:10.210 --> 00:18:13.090 don't you think like a lay person would be like, potentially see that 00:18:13.090 --> 00:18:14.350 and be excited about it as well? 00:18:14.560 --> 00:18:17.140 So now, now you're not only confusing the people that are actually like, 00:18:17.290 --> 00:18:21.070 like potentially building, adding to it and, and in, in depth with 00:18:21.070 --> 00:18:23.560 it, but they're also confusing the people that could just be using like 00:18:23.560 --> 00:18:27.970 a wordpress.com install, like on, you know, like a, you know, one of the plans. 00:18:28.180 --> 00:18:31.090 I'm just, I, I, I don't, I just didn't get it. 00:18:31.090 --> 00:18:33.430 And again, it's not, I'm not trying to criticize people, I'm just. 00:18:33.960 --> 00:18:38.150 I think it speaks to a broader thing if we zoom out and we don't just think about 00:18:38.150 --> 00:18:43.229 this one thing, like this, this type of, you know, like, Oh, we should do this 00:18:43.230 --> 00:18:45.700 then this, then this, it's just, I just feel like that's kind of lacking there. 00:18:45.700 --> 00:18:49.579 And maybe that's just the, maybe that's the, the whole crux of 00:18:49.719 --> 00:18:52.609 open source and WordPress and all that in general, but I don't know. 00:18:52.670 --> 00:18:55.620 It's just kind of weird to me, especially because it was on the commercial side too. 00:18:55.620 --> 00:18:56.230 Now that I think about it, 00:18:58.470 --> 00:18:59.750 so I'm really confused. 00:19:00.490 --> 00:19:00.790 Matt: Yeah. 00:19:00.790 --> 00:19:01.810 I mean, you know, the. 00:19:05.070 --> 00:19:08.600 You know, go back and people listening to this or watching this go, go and I'll 00:19:08.600 --> 00:19:09.909 link it up in the, in the show notes. 00:19:09.940 --> 00:19:15.149 I did a hour plus video with Brian cords who coincidentally also, um, 00:19:15.620 --> 00:19:20.010 uh, voiceover the, the video for this announcement with air quotes. 00:19:20.310 --> 00:19:23.860 Um, and we, and we talked about a lot of the challenges with, you 00:19:23.860 --> 00:19:24.840 know, understanding wordpress. 00:19:24.840 --> 00:19:25.590 com and wordpress. 00:19:25.590 --> 00:19:25.879 org. 00:19:25.879 --> 00:19:33.745 Again, if those lines were not so blurry, uh, Maybe if we saw something 00:19:33.754 --> 00:19:35.884 like experimented in, in wordpress. 00:19:35.884 --> 00:19:38.364 com, we would probably just feel, Oh, it just stays in wordpress. 00:19:38.384 --> 00:19:38.665 com. 00:19:38.665 --> 00:19:41.974 So maybe we weren't so like, Oh, this is going to come to wordpress. 00:19:41.994 --> 00:19:44.744 Because again, that's how I saw it. 00:19:44.754 --> 00:19:46.705 Even if somebody said, well, why are they, why is. 00:19:46.945 --> 00:19:50.354 com building this and not, you know, the, the core wordpress 00:19:50.354 --> 00:19:51.705 team or the core secondary 00:19:51.705 --> 00:19:52.165 Mark: issue though. 00:19:52.215 --> 00:19:52.574 Matt: Yeah. 00:19:52.575 --> 00:19:55.685 I would say like, well, That's fine. 00:19:55.695 --> 00:19:59.165 And, and the, and the thing exists and now we see it and they 00:19:59.165 --> 00:20:00.455 can contribute that code back. 00:20:00.465 --> 00:20:01.284 We did get word. 00:20:01.415 --> 00:20:03.955 I don't know if you want to get into it or not, but we did get word that 00:20:03.965 --> 00:20:06.905 that code is not going, uh, into core. 00:20:06.944 --> 00:20:07.875 It's not built for it. 00:20:07.875 --> 00:20:10.964 And it's, it's really, they're just going to bypass it again. 00:20:10.964 --> 00:20:15.845 I still struggle with that sentiment because humans have seen the way it works. 00:20:16.115 --> 00:20:19.365 And I mean, you can be influenced to some degree, especially if 00:20:19.365 --> 00:20:20.504 you had such positive reaction. 00:20:21.095 --> 00:20:23.485 Um, what makes us a little bit. 00:20:23.865 --> 00:20:24.815 More challenging. 00:20:25.135 --> 00:20:30.835 Uh, and I wanted to pull up a old article that I wrote many years ago when we were 00:20:30.865 --> 00:20:34.575 in the, uh, there was the Calypso project. 00:20:34.585 --> 00:20:36.684 You ever heard of that, that code name before? 00:20:37.845 --> 00:20:38.615 Mark: Hmm. 00:20:38.665 --> 00:20:40.005 I I've heard of it. 00:20:40.334 --> 00:20:42.325 Did you just, did we just talk about this recently? 00:20:42.395 --> 00:20:44.435 I feel, I feel like I just saw it recently, actually. 00:20:44.870 --> 00:20:48.110 Matt: So, uh, I think this is it, uh, the tug of war WordPress 00:20:48.110 --> 00:20:49.490 experience, web host, and us. 00:20:49.500 --> 00:20:55.060 So, I have this, let me pull it up, uh, for those who are watching, uh, and if 00:20:55.060 --> 00:20:56.370 you're just listening, I'll link it up. 00:20:56.370 --> 00:21:00.990 It's an old post I wrote, uh, back in 2016, December 2016. 00:21:01.620 --> 00:21:07.640 And the Calypso project came out, and this was, from a 50, 000 foot 00:21:07.640 --> 00:21:09.960 view, it was an app like experience. 00:21:09.960 --> 00:21:10.174 Thanks for watching. 00:21:11.504 --> 00:21:12.415 On wordpress. 00:21:12.425 --> 00:21:17.315 com and also a local app that you could download. 00:21:17.325 --> 00:21:20.674 Oh wow, iPhone 7 is a screenshot in my, in my book. 00:21:20.715 --> 00:21:21.805 It still looks the exact same. 00:21:21.805 --> 00:21:22.315 No, I'm just kidding. 00:21:22.595 --> 00:21:22.845 Yeah. 00:21:23.104 --> 00:21:24.985 Um, and here's a little screenshot again for those. 00:21:24.995 --> 00:21:25.414 Yeah, it does. 00:21:25.644 --> 00:21:28.715 Uh, and those who are viewing, you can see this little screenshot here. 00:21:28.725 --> 00:21:30.780 It says, um, I'll just zoom into it. 00:21:30.780 --> 00:21:31.629 The new wordpress. 00:21:31.629 --> 00:21:31.870 com. 00:21:31.870 --> 00:21:33.260 You can download the desktop app. 00:21:33.260 --> 00:21:35.540 So I wrote this whole piece, you know how I am. 00:21:35.540 --> 00:21:37.220 I, I, I'm a futurist. 00:21:37.270 --> 00:21:42.339 I look at it and I go, Oh, what does this mean for the future of WordPress? 00:21:42.379 --> 00:21:49.349 And in my opinion, I was thinking what they'll do is build out this app that 00:21:50.760 --> 00:21:56.009 you download to your desktop and use natively to build your WordPress websites. 00:21:56.010 --> 00:21:58.740 And Oh, by the way, wouldn't it be great. 00:21:59.149 --> 00:22:02.639 So, if instead of building your WordPress website, um, 00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:07.810 you could, or building your WordPress website locally, you 00:22:07.810 --> 00:22:12.050 could then host it somewhere with the same frictionless experience. 00:22:12.050 --> 00:22:15.849 In other words, build your website and your app and then send it to any web host. 00:22:16.130 --> 00:22:17.829 And that web host would be WordPress. 00:22:17.829 --> 00:22:19.760 com and whatever partners they might have. 00:22:20.160 --> 00:22:24.100 I was looking at that as the, the future of building WordPress. 00:22:24.100 --> 00:22:25.960 I mean, we're all excited about apps back then. 00:22:26.330 --> 00:22:27.390 That died down. 00:22:27.810 --> 00:22:28.930 The Calypso Project. 00:22:29.650 --> 00:22:31.770 kind of vaporized, but now we have studio. 00:22:31.770 --> 00:22:37.210 And what I look at, which makes this whole thing still confusing 00:22:37.220 --> 00:22:38.930 is Daniel put out the tweet. 00:22:38.960 --> 00:22:41.800 Oh, if you love the content model stuff, you're going to love wordpress. 00:22:41.800 --> 00:22:44.330 com roadmap, which he has. 00:22:45.500 --> 00:22:48.590 The screenshot of his tweet, and he says, you might have also caught my 00:22:48.590 --> 00:22:50.870 tweet yesterday about the new create content model prototype, which allows 00:22:50.890 --> 00:22:53.880 anyone to define the custom post types and fields natively in the block editor, 00:22:54.130 --> 00:22:58.659 game changing and incredible or two or two of the dozens of positive reactions. 00:22:58.659 --> 00:23:02.199 We hope that our prototype spurs product of productive conversations 00:23:02.199 --> 00:23:04.149 within the core community. 00:23:05.020 --> 00:23:08.470 And that's that last piece that I'm still stuck on because we heard. 00:23:08.490 --> 00:23:09.490 No, no, no. 00:23:09.510 --> 00:23:13.330 This is even, even this prototype shouldn't, you shouldn't look at it. 00:23:14.150 --> 00:23:17.610 You should just move past well, which is very challenging, you know, for, 00:23:17.639 --> 00:23:20.409 for me, you know, in, in this world. 00:23:20.409 --> 00:23:22.850 But the point is, is I think wordpress. 00:23:22.850 --> 00:23:28.250 com is doing things and doing things outside of the norm of 00:23:28.250 --> 00:23:31.949 WordPress, which I think they have to, in order for wordpress. 00:23:31.949 --> 00:23:35.419 com and automatic to survive, there has to be a different experience over there. 00:23:35.745 --> 00:23:38.975 And I'll say it again, and I do want to write a post about this or finish 00:23:38.975 --> 00:23:43.034 writing my post about it, but the reckoning is coming where there will 00:23:43.044 --> 00:23:44.645 be a different experience over there. 00:23:44.695 --> 00:23:48.084 Like this content model could be an experience you only get at com. 00:23:48.364 --> 00:23:49.965 And I wouldn't have an issue with that. 00:23:50.965 --> 00:23:53.834 Because you could be influenced by it and somebody could build 00:23:53.834 --> 00:23:55.084 it in open source WordPress. 00:23:55.344 --> 00:23:58.245 But I wouldn't mind if com had that kind of experience and said, 00:23:58.245 --> 00:23:59.495 Yeah, you gotta pay for that. 00:23:59.725 --> 00:24:03.735 I wouldn't mind because that means, Hey, that's a way for Automatic to survive. 00:24:03.935 --> 00:24:04.914 And it's not really. 00:24:05.315 --> 00:24:06.645 undercutting us in any way. 00:24:07.004 --> 00:24:10.514 Um, and I think these are the early days. 00:24:10.585 --> 00:24:16.325 Uh, where we're starting to see maybe studio and, and my whole thesis of an app 00:24:16.335 --> 00:24:20.395 first experience and smoothing out the experience for end users is coming and 00:24:20.395 --> 00:24:22.134 that best experience will be at dot com. 00:24:23.710 --> 00:24:25.830 Mark: Yeah, I mean, there's a couple thoughts there. 00:24:25.850 --> 00:24:32.070 Um, the, the, the layup one on that tweet specifically is if this was never, if, 00:24:32.120 --> 00:24:36.209 if this was put out and the, and there was no plans to actually make it happen 00:24:36.240 --> 00:24:39.450 and it was literally just, hey, look what we can do, but we're not going to do. 00:24:39.925 --> 00:24:43.435 You have to, you have to say that, like, you absolutely have to say that somewhere. 00:24:43.504 --> 00:24:45.175 It's gotta be like, this is just a prototype. 00:24:45.365 --> 00:24:47.465 We are not planning on, on releasing that. 00:24:47.514 --> 00:24:50.425 Like, I know that's a weird thing to write in a tweet, but like you, you 00:24:50.425 --> 00:24:53.194 have to absolutely say, I mean, I, again, I watched Brian's voiceover 00:24:53.195 --> 00:24:56.325 video again, too, um, that was, you know, it was in that tweet there and 00:24:56.325 --> 00:24:57.714 it, it didn't make it sound like that. 00:24:57.714 --> 00:24:58.895 Again, I'm not criticizing anybody. 00:24:58.895 --> 00:25:00.665 I'm sure Brian didn't even write that script or whatever. 00:25:00.665 --> 00:25:02.475 Like it's, that's, has nothing. 00:25:02.495 --> 00:25:04.375 I'm not saying about individual people where I'm saying that at 00:25:04.375 --> 00:25:07.245 a 50, 000 foot view as WordPress. 00:25:07.720 --> 00:25:11.560 I feel like that is something that is just like as a, as a consumer of 00:25:11.570 --> 00:25:15.270 the information, I was confused and I'm in this, you're in this, right? 00:25:15.300 --> 00:25:17.959 Like imagine the other people is kind of the way that I look at this. 00:25:18.350 --> 00:25:19.159 So that's the first thing. 00:25:19.159 --> 00:25:21.669 The second thing though, I mean, I don't know how deep we want to go into that part 00:25:21.679 --> 00:25:23.550 about the commercialized product versus. 00:25:23.799 --> 00:25:24.249 org thing. 00:25:25.425 --> 00:25:28.805 I'm barely scratching the surface on kind of forming an opinion on that. 00:25:29.175 --> 00:25:30.855 I mean, if, if, if. 00:25:31.205 --> 00:25:34.134 com had the content model thing, and that was like one of the benefits 00:25:34.134 --> 00:25:36.814 that you would get from using that and supporting automatic, like I get that. 00:25:36.815 --> 00:25:38.784 I definitely want automatic to continue to survive. 00:25:39.025 --> 00:25:41.605 I'm not sure if that's like off the top of my head, one of the 00:25:41.615 --> 00:25:43.174 best ways for that to happen. 00:25:43.515 --> 00:25:47.505 Obviously that's just the example here, but like, I would probably, if I'm 00:25:47.505 --> 00:25:50.240 trying to use my, Logical mindset here. 00:25:50.240 --> 00:25:54.030 I'd probably like go look at other open source platforms and see how their 00:25:54.639 --> 00:25:58.010 situation goes, like even outside of it again, like Linux or something like that. 00:25:58.010 --> 00:25:59.460 Like how do those companies. 00:26:00.070 --> 00:26:02.640 If there are any sort of a commercialized arm that is taking care 00:26:02.640 --> 00:26:03.840 of that, how do those things survive? 00:26:05.270 --> 00:26:10.139 Is it normally that the commercialized product gets a better product than here? 00:26:10.160 --> 00:26:12.810 Because here's the one thing, I think I sent you this video in DMs. 00:26:13.479 --> 00:26:16.800 There's a recent like, if anybody's like outside of the WordPress space, like 00:26:16.809 --> 00:26:19.710 technical like, um, I think Linus Tech Tips just did it, I don't even watch 00:26:19.710 --> 00:26:22.690 him that often, but he had like a video on like Android open source, right? 00:26:22.720 --> 00:26:24.930 I'm an Android guy, as opposed to you guys that are Apple. 00:26:25.350 --> 00:26:30.150 And, um, It was like that the core experience of that open 00:26:30.150 --> 00:26:34.550 source product or that open source project of Android is so terrible 00:26:34.720 --> 00:26:36.699 compared to like the Google flavor. 00:26:36.699 --> 00:26:40.080 Now the Samsung flavor now, you know, whatever else there is. 00:26:40.319 --> 00:26:44.060 And it's like, it's almost like it's not even a thing anymore because 00:26:44.060 --> 00:26:47.600 it's, it's so much worse and it hasn't really been kept up with. 00:26:48.070 --> 00:26:49.770 So I don't know if any of that could happen with WordPress. 00:26:49.800 --> 00:26:51.320 I would just be concerned perhaps. 00:26:51.320 --> 00:26:54.100 Cause that's another example that it feels like somewhat similar. 00:26:55.080 --> 00:26:56.350 But that's a larger topic. 00:26:56.350 --> 00:26:58.960 I don't know if you have thoughts on that specifically, but that's where I would 00:26:58.960 --> 00:26:59.980 go with that would be my next questions. 00:26:59.980 --> 00:27:00.585 Yeah, 00:27:00.585 --> 00:27:03.560 Matt: I, I do, but, um, 00:27:06.999 --> 00:27:16.720 I, I just think that there is, there's definitely the need to clear up the, um, 00:27:17.540 --> 00:27:21.620 You know, all, all the confusion in, in, in the air, you know, for, especially for 00:27:21.620 --> 00:27:26.030 events like this, you know, happenings like this, that people just can't figure 00:27:26.030 --> 00:27:28.120 out and understand why, why it happened. 00:27:28.120 --> 00:27:34.550 And, and I think that the only way for, but yeah, I always have to bring it 00:27:34.569 --> 00:27:37.670 back to the commercial side of automatic because that's just largely in my head 00:27:37.670 --> 00:27:43.389 right now, they, they have, you know, I don't think they're profitable. 00:27:43.389 --> 00:27:44.090 I have no idea. 00:27:44.270 --> 00:27:44.450 Right. 00:27:44.450 --> 00:27:46.530 It's all speculation because they're a privately held company. 00:27:47.320 --> 00:27:50.100 But I don't think they're profitable compared to their, you know, investments. 00:27:50.530 --> 00:27:54.290 Um, and there needs to be, there's either going to be another round 00:27:54.290 --> 00:27:57.110 of funding, if there hasn't already been, and we just don't know about it. 00:27:57.479 --> 00:28:03.090 Um, I'd imagine there'd be another round of funding, and somebody at some 00:28:03.090 --> 00:28:06.429 point is going to say, Get profitable. 00:28:06.669 --> 00:28:08.019 Start building at scale. 00:28:08.329 --> 00:28:11.720 Um, you know, really start expanding this thing. 00:28:12.180 --> 00:28:15.345 And I don't know how they're going to do that with just 00:28:15.345 --> 00:28:17.955 hosting and just Jetpack, right? 00:28:17.955 --> 00:28:23.145 I think that Band Aid needs to get ripped off where they can turn to people and say, 00:28:23.275 --> 00:28:27.365 whatever the number is, 45 percent of the modern web runs on open source WordPress. 00:28:27.905 --> 00:28:31.074 And we have a, which is massive opportunity. 00:28:31.084 --> 00:28:36.925 And then for them to say, over here, our WordPress is like 20 percent better. 00:28:37.385 --> 00:28:40.935 So if you want a better by like 20 percent experience, come over here. 00:28:41.774 --> 00:28:47.064 And I think most open source projects, Ubuntu, Android, maybe licensing and 00:28:47.064 --> 00:28:50.355 support, that kind of thing, is all like more support driven, which you 00:28:50.355 --> 00:28:51.745 could also say that's what hosting is. 00:28:51.764 --> 00:28:53.915 Yeah, it's hosting, but it's also support for WordPress. 00:28:54.865 --> 00:28:59.925 You know, I don't know of any other open source project that has, you 00:28:59.925 --> 00:29:03.034 know, the strict model of it being 20 percent better over there. 00:29:03.794 --> 00:29:07.004 Um, I just feel like that's what they have to do and they, they 00:29:07.024 --> 00:29:09.304 could do, um, if they wanted. 00:29:09.939 --> 00:29:17.456 Or slow trickle, uh, out features where hey, in this release in WordPress 6. 00:29:17.456 --> 00:29:18.009 7, WordPress. 00:29:18.010 --> 00:29:20.770 com gets this and then WordPress. 00:29:20.770 --> 00:29:21.470 org gets it at WordPress 6. 00:29:21.470 --> 00:29:22.540 8. 00:29:23.669 --> 00:29:25.949 You know, and there's like a, a one cycle thing. 00:29:25.970 --> 00:29:27.419 I wouldn't care about that. 00:29:27.459 --> 00:29:32.600 I'd be like, cool, you know, automatics building cool stuff like this example, and 00:29:32.600 --> 00:29:34.200 they're going to slow roll it out to us. 00:29:34.220 --> 00:29:35.370 We'll get it in the next version. 00:29:35.409 --> 00:29:36.820 I would be totally cool with that. 00:29:37.280 --> 00:29:40.544 Um, And I don't know of any other projects that do that. 00:29:40.885 --> 00:29:44.294 We were on a call, I think we were, you and I were on a call last week, 00:29:44.294 --> 00:29:46.834 on a live stream last week when they brought up Expression Engine. 00:29:47.794 --> 00:29:49.945 Or I was definitely on a live stream, I thought you were with me. 00:29:49.945 --> 00:29:54.764 Um, Expression Engine, tiny compared to WordPress. 00:29:55.084 --> 00:29:58.145 But that's an open source project, and they have the free version. 00:29:58.715 --> 00:30:02.485 And then, yeah, you have the paid versions, which have cool stuff, cool 00:30:02.485 --> 00:30:06.125 features you're not going to get in the free version, and you have to pay for it. 00:30:06.595 --> 00:30:09.215 Yeah, okay, Expression Engine does it, but Expression Engine is tiny. 00:30:09.405 --> 00:30:09.835 It's cool. 00:30:10.005 --> 00:30:11.265 It's actually a pretty cool CMS. 00:30:11.635 --> 00:30:14.895 Um, but, you know, tiny compared to the influence of WordPress. 00:30:15.515 --> 00:30:21.035 Um, yeah, at the end of the day, though, the optics here are unfortunate. 00:30:21.885 --> 00:30:25.835 Uh, Anne McCarthy has been sending us some stuff on, like, different, like, 00:30:26.690 --> 00:30:30.920 Other avenues of, like, the data views, the native data views that are coming to 00:30:30.920 --> 00:30:34.840 WordPress and, like, some of the other ideas, um, that, you know, we've been 00:30:34.840 --> 00:30:38.670 talking about for getting custom post types and custom fields into WordPress. 00:30:39.650 --> 00:30:44.180 This is in our, you know, just for, for clarity and transparency sake, 00:30:44.600 --> 00:30:47.390 um, she's not sending it to just you and me, she's sending it to a bunch 00:30:47.390 --> 00:30:49.560 of YouTubers that meet up regularly. 00:30:50.015 --> 00:30:52.335 It's in the YouTube Slack group. 00:30:52.365 --> 00:30:53.785 It's not an actual channel. 00:30:53.785 --> 00:30:55.625 It's just a group DM. 00:30:55.965 --> 00:31:00.535 So for all intents and purposes, it's public. 00:31:01.235 --> 00:31:04.405 I won't read it like line for line, everything that she has been sending 00:31:04.405 --> 00:31:07.585 me, but she was trying to shed some light on it to say, look, yeah, 00:31:07.585 --> 00:31:08.945 this thing is not moving forward. 00:31:09.325 --> 00:31:13.915 Um, here are some other examples and, and I haven't had a chance to dive into these. 00:31:14.415 --> 00:31:18.225 Um, but I think this will be a particular challenge, like the way 00:31:18.225 --> 00:31:20.715 that she is communicating this to us. 00:31:21.495 --> 00:31:26.605 Although I find it valuable and I'm glad she is even for us to be like, 00:31:26.605 --> 00:31:31.255 Hey, check out like all these GitHub repos for you and I to like dive into. 00:31:31.625 --> 00:31:35.135 We're like, well, I don't have time yet to like sift through all this stuff 00:31:35.435 --> 00:31:37.195 and I'd have to go and experiment it. 00:31:37.495 --> 00:31:40.195 Here's why I liked what the wordpress. 00:31:40.195 --> 00:31:40.675 com did. 00:31:40.675 --> 00:31:47.685 And here's maybe just a lesson for WordPress development and features 00:31:47.685 --> 00:31:49.045 that are coming to WordPress. 00:31:50.120 --> 00:31:51.170 He gave us a button. 00:31:51.840 --> 00:31:54.740 I could click a button and test it out. 00:31:55.640 --> 00:31:56.140 Right. 00:31:56.220 --> 00:31:59.880 He just set up the template in Playground or blueprint. 00:31:59.880 --> 00:32:03.690 I forget what I forget what playground calls it, but it was all there. 00:32:03.690 --> 00:32:04.450 It was all set up. 00:32:04.760 --> 00:32:09.330 Because sometimes I try to pull in The PRs and github to 00:32:09.370 --> 00:32:10.940 it to playground and it fails. 00:32:11.605 --> 00:32:13.055 So I was just like, it gets frustrating. 00:32:13.055 --> 00:32:15.995 I'm like, I don't have time to like dig into this or open up a ticket, 00:32:16.145 --> 00:32:18.125 but I, that, that's what I want. 00:32:18.145 --> 00:32:21.275 Like, that's one good lesson out of this is you got a cool feature. 00:32:21.445 --> 00:32:22.655 You want me to try it. 00:32:22.865 --> 00:32:25.925 Give me the button to click and I'll go click it and play with it. 00:32:25.925 --> 00:32:27.355 And that was, that was exciting. 00:32:27.355 --> 00:32:27.955 That was good. 00:32:29.115 --> 00:32:30.255 Mark: That was amazing. 00:32:30.515 --> 00:32:34.995 Uh, but it, it again kind of speaks to the fact that coupled with 00:32:34.995 --> 00:32:37.225 the language in that GitHub repo. 00:32:38.355 --> 00:32:39.925 We did all this, that's awesome. 00:32:39.925 --> 00:32:43.535 Why, why is it not, why was it not ever gonna get released? 00:32:43.765 --> 00:32:45.355 Like, I mean, it's a try button. 00:32:45.375 --> 00:32:46.065 Like, what? 00:32:46.610 --> 00:32:48.870 I mean, unless we have bad information, which I'm not saying we do. 00:32:48.920 --> 00:32:50.690 I mean, it's just, it's very confusing. 00:32:50.700 --> 00:32:53.810 Like I don't, I just don't know what to make of it. 00:32:53.880 --> 00:32:59.920 It's, it seems like an amazing, um, an amazingly cool thing that seems extremely 00:32:59.920 --> 00:33:05.840 like forward thinking and, and like progressive to the WordPress CMS that 00:33:05.850 --> 00:33:08.440 everyone was unanimously kind of on. 00:33:08.760 --> 00:33:13.390 And I hope that, I honestly hope that this, our conversation here 00:33:13.420 --> 00:33:16.340 ends up getting obsolete and they do end up bringing this, 00:33:16.350 --> 00:33:18.000 like they decide, Hey, maybe. 00:33:18.795 --> 00:33:22.445 All these 20, 000 views on this video signify that maybe we should actually put 00:33:22.445 --> 00:33:26.555 this into something and, and plan to have it, this or some, you know, some evolution 00:33:26.555 --> 00:33:29.645 of this into com or org or what have you. 00:33:30.135 --> 00:33:33.885 Uh, because I think that that would be, I think it would be beneficial. 00:33:34.105 --> 00:33:37.665 Um, just, I'm just confused as I usually am. 00:33:38.315 --> 00:33:41.575 But to your main point though, the, the button thing, if you guys aren't 00:33:42.045 --> 00:33:44.935 sure about that, like if you go to the, the tweet, you go to the, 00:33:44.985 --> 00:33:47.485 the GitHub repo, there's literally a button in the readme file just. 00:33:49.195 --> 00:33:51.765 So, I mean, that's a hundred percent agree with you. 00:33:51.765 --> 00:33:54.115 If you want somebody to try something, you got to make it easy for them 00:33:54.115 --> 00:33:58.185 because, you know, uh, myself included, I don't live in GitHub. 00:33:58.455 --> 00:34:02.835 Uh, I mean, I know how to be dangerous, but like, if you just tell me like, 00:34:02.835 --> 00:34:05.025 Hey, go here, try this thing out and let me know what you think. 00:34:05.035 --> 00:34:07.185 I could do that. 00:34:07.545 --> 00:34:08.945 That's definitely my speed. 00:34:09.345 --> 00:34:11.355 Matt: Yeah, I have it pulled up on the screen again for those, 00:34:11.415 --> 00:34:14.825 uh, who are listening, check out the video, um, with Playground. 00:34:14.845 --> 00:34:15.224 I, and. 00:34:15.475 --> 00:34:20.495 This is a playground versus studio is like a whole other topic in my head. 00:34:20.695 --> 00:34:26.125 Uh, cause playground and studio are again, if I go back to my blog post from 00:34:26.125 --> 00:34:31.255 2016, like that native app experience, being able to have a smoother, quicker 00:34:31.715 --> 00:34:36.270 experience natively on an app, I think will still outpace the, You 00:34:36.270 --> 00:34:42.910 know, using the web, um, you know, for speed, uh, and, uh, a smoother, uh, 00:34:43.310 --> 00:34:47.610 UI like playground and studio, even those two compete with each other. 00:34:47.760 --> 00:34:50.640 In my opinion, it's like, which one do you want people to use? 00:34:50.640 --> 00:34:53.090 Do you want to use studio from wordpress. 00:34:53.090 --> 00:34:54.650 com, which syncs up to a wordpress. 00:34:55.280 --> 00:35:00.240 com account, or do you want to use playground, which is still an automatician 00:35:00.240 --> 00:35:04.800 still owned by automatic, but with air quotes, like the, the wordpress. 00:35:04.800 --> 00:35:07.030 org side of things, even that is like. 00:35:07.615 --> 00:35:08.945 Oh, who's going to get these features? 00:35:09.895 --> 00:35:13.515 You know, like you could run that, the canvas, uh, whatever it's 00:35:13.515 --> 00:35:15.605 called, the content canvas creator. 00:35:15.605 --> 00:35:16.985 It doesn't even matter anymore, we're not using it. 00:35:17.575 --> 00:35:17.975 That thing. 00:35:17.975 --> 00:35:18.365 Content model. 00:35:18.625 --> 00:35:19.245 Content model. 00:35:19.445 --> 00:35:24.105 You could use content model on studios, so Daniel says in his blog post. 00:35:24.545 --> 00:35:26.095 Um, so which one wins out? 00:35:26.145 --> 00:35:28.405 You know, the playground or studio? 00:35:28.405 --> 00:35:30.565 So even those two compete, which is hilarious. 00:35:31.055 --> 00:35:33.619 But I think these are the future for like developing, developing. 00:35:34.340 --> 00:35:38.340 WordPress natively and then sending it off to, to wherever. 00:35:38.830 --> 00:35:41.860 Uh, and that's, you know, again, going back to the commercial side, that's the 00:35:41.860 --> 00:35:47.400 stuff I'm really interested to watch is can it go wherever, like, will they 00:35:47.400 --> 00:35:51.050 allow you to hook up to any hosting account through studio or playground, 00:35:51.630 --> 00:35:52.830 uh, or is it just going to be. 00:35:53.050 --> 00:35:54.380 com again? 00:35:54.380 --> 00:35:56.950 I wouldn't care if it was just. 00:35:57.130 --> 00:35:59.870 com because I look at that as that's the revenue model they need. 00:36:00.400 --> 00:36:04.130 Or do they say, yeah, hook up, uh, to any web host, but by the 00:36:04.130 --> 00:36:06.130 way, we're advertise to you. 00:36:06.625 --> 00:36:12.275 In studio app, um, all the stuff that we have at dot com or jet 00:36:12.275 --> 00:36:14.215 pack or WP cloud, et cetera. 00:36:14.865 --> 00:36:17.115 Um, that'll be interesting to see how it plays out. 00:36:18.145 --> 00:36:20.095 Mark: Yeah, definitely gonna keep that in mind. 00:36:20.095 --> 00:36:22.585 I mean, we all have to keep in mind that we got to make money, but 00:36:22.605 --> 00:36:26.005 especially the tool that we're using here, we have to make sure that, uh, 00:36:28.195 --> 00:36:29.305 generates revenue again. 00:36:29.305 --> 00:36:31.615 Either, you know, there's a lot of different things going on on 00:36:31.615 --> 00:36:33.515 the dot org side kind of now, too. 00:36:33.605 --> 00:36:39.545 Um, and but like, I mean, just from automatic in general again, I hope 00:36:39.545 --> 00:36:43.930 that, you know, That's a consideration, but we got a live demo here. 00:36:43.930 --> 00:36:44.160 Look at that. 00:36:44.170 --> 00:36:44.450 I mean, 00:36:44.810 --> 00:36:46.310 Matt: look how fast that was. 00:36:47.650 --> 00:36:48.710 That's amazing. 00:36:48.730 --> 00:36:49.080 Right. 00:36:49.100 --> 00:36:54.220 The like, just click a block, save a custom field, publish this. 00:36:54.580 --> 00:36:57.360 And then my custom post type is made. 00:36:57.780 --> 00:36:59.510 I add the new custom post type. 00:37:02.900 --> 00:37:03.140 Mark: Oops. 00:37:07.700 --> 00:37:08.830 Better not spell my name wrong. 00:37:08.830 --> 00:37:09.490 Again, I 00:37:09.770 --> 00:37:10.298 Matt: did that. 00:37:10.298 --> 00:37:13.994 I just got, I did that on purpose for, for all those WP tonic. 00:37:16.315 --> 00:37:18.785 Mark Zeminski, whatever he called you. 00:37:19.215 --> 00:37:21.355 Uh, and then we go to add new page. 00:37:22.215 --> 00:37:27.065 This is riveting for, uh, the podcast side of things, but I just want to 00:37:27.065 --> 00:37:31.135 get down to seeing this, like, and then you can come in and just pull 00:37:31.135 --> 00:37:32.875 in your custom field right there. 00:37:32.885 --> 00:37:37.645 It's just already saved in a block and I can just pull in my custom 00:37:37.645 --> 00:37:41.215 fields and build out whatever, or I can throw a query loop in. 00:37:43.140 --> 00:37:44.220 I don't think I can have any control. 00:37:44.220 --> 00:37:45.090 I do have control of that. 00:37:45.380 --> 00:37:50.630 Um, you know, maybe I, maybe in the future, I could have filtered this, like, 00:37:50.880 --> 00:37:55.590 you know, said, uh, show this custom field from, you know, this custom post type. 00:37:55.590 --> 00:38:00.170 I mean, two weeks, that's what we, we built this amazing interface in two 00:38:00.170 --> 00:38:01.870 weeks, and it's, and we're not getting it. 00:38:01.880 --> 00:38:06.160 So, yeah, it's just, it is super frustrating, um, to not have this. 00:38:07.275 --> 00:38:07.565 Mark: Yeah. 00:38:07.765 --> 00:38:09.865 Um, you know, I'm the dynamic data guy. 00:38:10.105 --> 00:38:13.365 Um, you know, I, I love that. 00:38:13.535 --> 00:38:18.085 Um, and I, and I want to see that continue to continue to grow. 00:38:18.085 --> 00:38:20.975 And I mean, obviously like that was, that was version one of it. 00:38:22.185 --> 00:38:23.375 Hopefully it continues to evolve. 00:38:23.375 --> 00:38:23.895 We don't know though. 00:38:24.155 --> 00:38:24.645 We don't know. 00:38:24.715 --> 00:38:25.515 We just don't know anything. 00:38:25.855 --> 00:38:28.385 But, um, I don't know. 00:38:28.405 --> 00:38:29.215 I think that, 00:38:31.665 --> 00:38:34.385 It's, it's probably, it would be a little different, you know, than using 00:38:34.385 --> 00:38:35.445 like a bricks or something like that. 00:38:35.445 --> 00:38:37.575 Obviously, you got to get used to it and everything, but I don't know. 00:38:37.595 --> 00:38:40.455 I just, I want us to, I would love to see it continue to like 00:38:40.805 --> 00:38:42.925 focus on those types of things. 00:38:43.005 --> 00:38:44.825 Again, I just, I don't know what to say. 00:38:44.845 --> 00:38:48.235 I just really appreciated the fact that we had something here that was like really 00:38:49.265 --> 00:38:51.125 brought people together, so to speak. 00:38:51.175 --> 00:38:53.035 To, for lack of a better way to say it, like just like 00:38:53.045 --> 00:38:54.205 everybody was on board with. 00:38:54.225 --> 00:38:57.985 And then the fact that we get just like punched right in the gut after that. 00:38:58.505 --> 00:39:01.685 Um, It's kind of weird, just like a little bit of weird 00:39:01.685 --> 00:39:03.005 miscommunication, I feel like. 00:39:03.005 --> 00:39:06.545 So, um, I hope it, I hope it finds its way. 00:39:06.625 --> 00:39:09.435 But the one other thing I'll say here is because I've also heard, and I don't 00:39:09.445 --> 00:39:12.925 know if this is a sentiment, what I've interpreted is like, oh, maybe another 00:39:12.925 --> 00:39:14.585 way is like, hey, this is what's possible. 00:39:14.595 --> 00:39:16.695 Because WordPress, again, I don't think people understand this, myself 00:39:16.695 --> 00:39:20.650 included, WordPress is kind of becoming this concept of like a framework, 00:39:20.650 --> 00:39:22.050 like underneath the hood of this. 00:39:22.050 --> 00:39:24.850 There's amazing stuff happening that I'm only like this much 00:39:24.850 --> 00:39:25.640 knowledgeable at, right? 00:39:25.890 --> 00:39:30.280 Like all of the, the, the rest API, the fields API, which is that what this is? 00:39:30.350 --> 00:39:31.960 Like leveraging to a degree? 00:39:32.170 --> 00:39:32.910 Like the fields API? 00:39:32.910 --> 00:39:33.510 I don't, yeah, 00:39:33.550 --> 00:39:35.950 Matt: I, I don't know if it's using, which APIs it's using. 00:39:35.950 --> 00:39:38.600 I'm assuming it's using something in order to do this. 00:39:39.115 --> 00:39:41.715 Mark: Regardless, people way smarter than me on the dev side are like 00:39:41.715 --> 00:39:43.095 doing awesome things to core. 00:39:43.095 --> 00:39:46.125 I totally understand that the trouble is that like, it's not, it's not 00:39:46.125 --> 00:39:50.535 progressing fast enough on the UX side, but you could leverage all of that. 00:39:50.535 --> 00:39:53.125 There's a lot of themes and things like that, that I know are leveraging these 00:39:53.125 --> 00:39:54.565 types of tools, which is fantastic. 00:39:54.795 --> 00:39:58.905 The weird part though, is like, again, when we see something like this, it's 00:39:58.905 --> 00:40:02.665 like, who is kind of making the decision as far as like what we should kind of put 00:40:02.665 --> 00:40:03.735 in there, what we shouldn't put in there. 00:40:03.735 --> 00:40:05.065 I know it's a bigger conversation. 00:40:05.425 --> 00:40:08.085 Um, but those are, it's just a weird. 00:40:08.830 --> 00:40:11.860 It's just a weird spot for me to kind of see something that, uh, 00:40:11.900 --> 00:40:13.260 everybody would really appreciate. 00:40:13.290 --> 00:40:16.470 I'm, I didn't see one like real objection to the concept. 00:40:17.010 --> 00:40:20.860 Um, so I'm not sure why that wouldn't be considered for, for 00:40:21.050 --> 00:40:22.230 org, for com, like whatever. 00:40:22.320 --> 00:40:25.170 It's just an interesting, it's an interesting spot. 00:40:25.300 --> 00:40:25.780 Um, yeah, 00:40:25.780 --> 00:40:28.840 Matt: they'll, they'll probably have to go and rework this, uh, GitHub page. 00:40:29.640 --> 00:40:33.450 Yeah, again, the optics say, like, want to move this concept forward, feel free 00:40:33.450 --> 00:40:36.540 to open an issue in the repo, discuss your proposed improvements, pull requests 00:40:36.540 --> 00:40:39.490 are welcome, you know, we built this prototype, we may invest in it in the 00:40:39.490 --> 00:40:44.820 future, uh, may invest into it further based on the level of interest, I mean, 00:40:44.820 --> 00:40:49.173 the interest looks pretty high, our near term vision is outlined on this 00:40:49.173 --> 00:40:52.550 roadmap issue here, and they have, you know, even had a little roadmap for it, 00:40:52.660 --> 00:40:55.190 uh, which was, which was great, but. 00:40:55.875 --> 00:40:56.115 Anyway, 00:40:56.235 --> 00:40:56.485 Mark: I don't know. 00:40:56.745 --> 00:40:57.855 Maybe that, maybe that's it then. 00:40:57.855 --> 00:40:59.845 Maybe it was like kind of like a feeler thing. 00:40:59.975 --> 00:41:04.395 Uh, the, the language around it was a little confusing. 00:41:04.405 --> 00:41:08.505 The follow up news around it was more confusing, but hopefully maybe 00:41:08.505 --> 00:41:12.835 it's like, Hey, I mean, they're obviously within complete, you know, 00:41:12.855 --> 00:41:14.235 ability to just be like, okay, yeah. 00:41:14.235 --> 00:41:15.515 I mean, you guys love this thing. 00:41:15.515 --> 00:41:16.255 We'll work on it. 00:41:16.265 --> 00:41:17.555 Like, I guess they could definitely do that. 00:41:17.555 --> 00:41:17.695 Right. 00:41:17.695 --> 00:41:18.325 And I hope they do. 00:41:18.435 --> 00:41:21.925 So it's just, it's Yeah, just a little strange. 00:41:21.925 --> 00:41:24.565 I would, I would hope that we'd be a little bit more clear on the stuff 00:41:24.565 --> 00:41:27.235 that we don't know if it's going to move forward and just be like, Hey 00:41:27.235 --> 00:41:28.625 guys, what do you think about this? 00:41:28.665 --> 00:41:33.105 Like, just say that rather than be like, we're doing this, we're doing this. 00:41:33.105 --> 00:41:35.515 Whether you, it kind of came across as we're doing this, whether you like it 00:41:35.515 --> 00:41:37.015 or not, and then everyone did like it. 00:41:37.025 --> 00:41:39.215 And then we got the, the kind of the rollback thing. 00:41:39.575 --> 00:41:41.085 And then it was like, Oh, okay. 00:41:41.085 --> 00:41:44.605 So yeah, it was just a little, just a little strange, but hopefully 00:41:44.605 --> 00:41:45.825 it all works itself out, I guess. 00:41:46.410 --> 00:41:49.260 Matt: Our promise to you, dear listener and viewer, is that 00:41:49.260 --> 00:41:50.700 we will follow this story. 00:41:51.490 --> 00:41:55.140 We will ask it to the ends of the earth to figure out what's going to happen. 00:41:55.750 --> 00:41:56.630 We will meet with. 00:42:04.080 --> 00:42:09.220 Shutting off and every connection is coming back right 00:42:09.220 --> 00:42:11.550 now, maybe, and we're back. 00:42:11.965 --> 00:42:12.085 Mark: Yeah. 00:42:12.085 --> 00:42:12.785 You dropped for a second. 00:42:12.785 --> 00:42:13.055 You're good. 00:42:13.155 --> 00:42:13.815 I don't know what that was about. 00:42:14.305 --> 00:42:17.355 Matt: Uh, our promise to you is that we will follow the story and ask 00:42:17.365 --> 00:42:19.365 the questions to get the answers. 00:42:19.715 --> 00:42:21.555 Um, and we'll, uh, we'll follow this. 00:42:21.555 --> 00:42:23.445 We'll talk to folks at WordCamp US. 00:42:23.465 --> 00:42:24.345 We'll talk to Anne. 00:42:24.775 --> 00:42:29.455 Uh, we'll talk to the powers that be, hopefully, and get some answers. 00:42:29.735 --> 00:42:30.325 So we want it. 00:42:30.545 --> 00:42:30.985 I want it. 00:42:31.405 --> 00:42:31.815 I like it. 00:42:32.655 --> 00:42:33.425 Uh, it's a W. 00:42:33.985 --> 00:42:34.815 Yeah, I want the truth. 00:42:35.735 --> 00:42:36.865 Uh, insert. 00:42:36.885 --> 00:42:39.995 You can't handle the truth meme here. 00:42:40.275 --> 00:42:43.665 Um, Yeah, anyway, good discussion. 00:42:43.875 --> 00:42:45.935 Uh, this is definitely, how do the kids say it? 00:42:45.935 --> 00:42:46.645 This is an L. 00:42:47.575 --> 00:42:48.015 Today. 00:42:48.275 --> 00:42:49.125 Mark: I mean, we'll see. 00:42:49.735 --> 00:42:52.995 L today maybe right now, but long term hopefully it'll be a dub. 00:42:53.525 --> 00:42:53.735 Matt: Yeah. 00:42:53.735 --> 00:42:53.975 You know. 00:42:54.735 --> 00:42:55.395 Mark: Yeah, get that dub. 00:42:55.675 --> 00:42:56.755 Uh, mjs. 00:42:56.785 --> 00:42:57.095 Matt: bio. 00:42:57.095 --> 00:42:58.805 Mark: Mark, where else, where else do you want folks to go? 00:42:59.445 --> 00:43:00.085 Uh, that's it. 00:43:00.085 --> 00:43:01.095 All the links are there. 00:43:01.105 --> 00:43:04.095 Uh, if you guys are going to be at WCUS, I'd love to chat with you. 00:43:04.225 --> 00:43:06.465 Um, yeah, excited for it. 00:43:06.475 --> 00:43:08.055 My first one, so we'll see how it goes. 00:43:08.595 --> 00:43:09.115 Matt: Fantastic. 00:43:09.115 --> 00:43:10.195 Everybody else, the WPMinute. 00:43:10.195 --> 00:43:11.225 com, the WPMinute. 00:43:11.245 --> 00:43:12.855 com slash subscribe. 00:43:13.275 --> 00:43:15.855 We will see you at WordCamp U.