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Well, hey, Adela, thank you for joining.

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I wanted to let you know I really appreciated our original chat and getting to know you a
bit.

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I was hoping maybe you could tell me a little bit about the background that you've gained
your experience through that brought you to becoming, I'd say, a leader in the space of

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email.

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and I'd say digital marketing overall.

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Could you give me a little bit of background from your perspective on how you've gotten to
this point of really being a thought leader in this space?

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Yeah.

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So I think one of the important things to realize is digital marketing didn't exist when I
went to college and it didn't exist when I quit college, right?

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So the, I guess that's one of the things that I would say is a piece of advice right early
in is it's hard to tell, especially today, the world moves faster today than it was when I

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was first started working and

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our parents and our parents' parents, the world is exponentially quicker.

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And it's really hard to figure out what you want to do on a 50 year timeframe when we have
no idea what the tech's gonna look like or what jobs are gonna exist or don't exist.

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So kind of always be prepared to take up an opportunity.

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And with mine in college, I studied agricultural economics because I kind of wanted to do
something around the economics of agriculture and helping the world feed itself back in

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the day.

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Feeding ourselves was the biggest problem that we had and we spent a lot of time thinking
about it.

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So I kind of did a degree in that.

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It was meh.

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I was good, but not that engaged.

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I spent most of my time working.

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And so when I sort of got out, I hadn't gone through the sort of job rounds and trying to
find a job and applying for jobs and everything else.

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I'm like, my God, my God, what am gonna do?

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And so I just started looking for a job and there's an ad that said...

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Earn money in London.

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Pound, pound, pound sign, right?

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And I'm like, dollar, dollar, dollar sign.

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I'm like, okay, I'll go.

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And I went for an interview and it's like a sales job, selling advertising.

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I needed money, I needed work, I wanted to live in London.

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Boom, took the job.

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Didn't even think about it.

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In fact, I went down for three interviews in the same space because there's a recruitment
headhunter, recruitment company that put me for three interviews.

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I got all three jobs and I picked the one with the last money.

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Go figure.

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That's another story.

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They kind of sold me into it.

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The point about it is media, digital is media, right?

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And marketing is media.

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That's really eyeballs.

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That's what you're selling.

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And that's what media and digital marketing is all about, getting eyeballs.

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So that space was pretty interesting.

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It was called business publishing.

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And what they did was they would get in a...

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databases of 10 ,000, 100 ,000 lawyers, accountants, you call them CPAs or IT consultants,
right?

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They would print a magazine full of content just for that audience, send it to them for
free subscription, some were paid, some were free, but ours was free, and make the money

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on advertising, right?

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And I'm like...

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How does that work?

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Okay, and this is one of the things, when you're in college, there are a bunch of jobs
that you could never understand.

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That's why all kids want to be firefighters or nurses or doctors is because that's the
only jobs they understand or a teacher, right?

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In fact, one of my daughters once said to me, dad, your job running a company is I like
being the head teacher.

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I'm like, I guess, because that's the only thing they can think about, right?

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So.

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I started doing this job selling.

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never particularly liked selling.

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I mean, I'm good at it, but I hate it, if that makes sense.

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It's just one of those things that you kind of have to do.

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And so the idea was to bring people up and say, hey, we've got this magazine that's read
by a hundred thousand of these sorts of people.

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Why don't you put your advertising?

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Now, remember this was a tech, my title was a tech title.

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So it was in the same space as PC week or computer world.

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I don't know if you remember those titles from back in the day.

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PC week, yeah.

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right?

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But the digital versions only.

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So I went to work with them and we were just selling advertising.

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So all I was doing was ringing up all the tech companies.

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Microsoft was a tiny company back then, right?

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And ringing up saying, hey, do want to put that ad in our magazine?

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It's read by all these guys and blah, blah.

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The point of that piece of the story is that it costs even then, let's say $5, $10 a unit
to print this title, have all the editors and writers writing the stories.

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printing it, bagging it up, sending it by courier or mail to 100 ,000 people.

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That's a lot of money.

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And it was made with the advertising.

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And the way I figured out what was going on was it's basically eyeballs.

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So the more eyeballs you have, the more you can charge and the more people want your
magazine, right?

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And I began to, and the quality of your eyeballs matter, right?

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So.

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list quality, right?

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That's always important and all that sort of stuff.

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So the bigger the list and the better quality it is, the better the advertising will work
and the better the advertising works, the better the advertisers come back to you.

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Simple, right?

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But in my head, I saw the pages of the magazine and I didn't have the language then as the
user interface or the interface between the eyeballs, which is IT professionals or the

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people you want to sell to, right?

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And the advertiser.

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So I started, so I did that for a few years.

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worked with magazines, then I went to a national newspaper, The Times of London.

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I worked there.

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I set up a whole IT section showing my age now, but we did a special supplement for the
launch of Windows 95.

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And I was all over that and created something like, I don't know, $1 .5, $2 million worth
of revenue for the title in one day for a section never been heard of before.

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And I was taken out to dinner by the, you know, like,

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the managing director and everything like that for doing a great job.

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But it was that, and I just saw it always as the more eyeballs you have and the better
quality you have, the better your title.

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The other thing I learned, which is kind of interesting and it speaks to something I'll
talk about later, is that in publishing, if you think about it, an annual is more

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expensive, sorry, it's cheaper to produce than a quarterly and a quarterly,

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It's the other way around.

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So an annual is cheaper than a quarterly, a monthly is cheaper than a quarterly, a weekly
is cheaper than a monthly, a daily is cheaper.

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It's the other way around.

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So it's more expensive to produce, right?

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But you actually make more money because you get more readership, because people have to
advertise more in order to get the same eyeballs, right?

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That's the first thing.

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The second thing is that...

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Your readership per issue is very different from your readership over a month's worth of
issues if you're a daily, right?

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Or a month's worth of issues if you're a weekly.

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So you actually get more engagement with higher frequency.

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That costs more.

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So you have to make more money, right?

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That's the simple thing.

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So when the internet came and the web came and like, my God, first of all, the interface
has become interactive, right?

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And secondly,

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the cost of production is nearly zero, right?

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This is amazing, right?

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I was just like, I've got to be in this space.

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So I was actually one of the first people who was relatively senior to move across to the
digital space.

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And I headed up sales in Excite across the whole of Europe for about four or five years,
four or four years, time flies.

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And so that's how I started.

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And while I was at Excite,

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Again, we're talking a long time ago.

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You remember the information super highway and Al Gore and all that kind of stuff and all
of that kind of stuff?

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Now, at the time, governments were taking the web as something that they could control and
they could own.

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And so the information super highway, so the government could do that.

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And the government said they were going to create an email address for every kid in the
country.

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I mean, can you imagine they were going to spend millions of dollars creating

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a system that was specific to school kids and giving everyone in the country.

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The Swedish government did something like that as well, right?

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And at the time, Hotmail had just started and Excite was offering a free email product.

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So I just went to the folks and said, listen, why don't we just get a big PR hit by
offering free email addresses to everyone starting tomorrow.

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Everybody, every school kid in the country can have one tomorrow.

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We'll create a special environment with special rules.

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So for example, you

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You had to email out to get an email in or you had to have a safe list of your school
teachers.

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we said, we put some stuff together to make it a safe product for school kids.

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Launched it, got loads of press and blah, blah, blah.

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And it was at that point I realized, wow, email.

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So I'm selling eyeballs, right?

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So I'm excited.

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At the time I'm one of the biggest sites of traffic in the whole of Europe, okay?

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After AOL and Microsoft and your own, okay?

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And people are...

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begging me for traffic.

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mean, everybody used to come to my door saying, Hey, listen, now can I pay to advertise?

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I want to sponsor this section, et cetera, et cetera.

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And they were all crazy about it.

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And I then thought email, if I have your email address, I don't need to pay anyone for
your eyeballs.

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I can publish myself.

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And that's the Genesis, right?

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So I thought email, this is amazing.

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And I set up an agency to provide content.

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for brands who wanted to email their customers.

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Remember I came from a publishing background, right?

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So my idea was create a weekly magazine full of interesting stuff so that their
subscribers are gonna like it and blah, blah, blah.

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And the first client went, yeah, great, I'll do it.

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But I haven't got any way, I haven't got any ESP.

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I don't know how to send an email and can you do all of that?

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And that's when I realized that actually an email, the devil's in the detail.

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Production is incredibly labor intensive and that hasn't changed a great deal over the
years.

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And every time...

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We fixed one thing production -wise to reduce labor intensity, then we put something else
in there and say, you've got to personalize to this and the other and everyone's now

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manually doing shit again, right?

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So it's kind of, you know, that...

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That's the weird thing about the email space.

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And I realized there was an opportunity and I just was forced by what people wanted to pay
for to start delivering production, building the emails, HTML, know, getting them in the

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inbox, working on deliverability, although that was less of an issue back in the day than
possibly it is now and doing all of that.

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So.

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If this sort of speaks to a number of questions that you're going to allude to and people
are always interested, how did you get there?

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And the answer is, I had no idea, right?

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And it's sort of, and I'm sort of flowing into, I highlighted something for the next
point, which is describe a key turning point, right?

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And I went, there isn't any.

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Is that good or is that bad?

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I mean, I find that human beings have an amazing capacity to retrofit intent to just
random stuff.

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That's how we, you know, when we predict the election, we always get it wrong.

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And then two years later, we go, well, you know something, we knew exactly what was
happening.

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The rooms were there.

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The reason they got it wrong on the day was because of X, Y, and Z, but really we did know
anyway, right?

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So I'm tempted and I'm always tempted.

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to sort of build a resume that makes me sound like some genius who sat down and figured
out where digital was going.

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I'm not.

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All I did.

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So every experience you had.

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impacts every experience after and is impacted by every experience before.

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It's how I describe email marketing in general.

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Too many people try and optimize every email that goes out to be perfect.

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Human beings try and do the same thing.

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Every move they make has to be perfect, right?

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And they've got to, it's all got to be great.

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And we've got to plan it all, et cetera, et cetera.

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And my view and the way I describe it, and when I first thought of it and coined the idea,
I went and Googled and there are a couple of sites that do this.

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I'm saying it's like,

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It's like optimizing a movie one frame at a time.

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Okay?

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So I Googled it and there was a Top Gun one frame at a time and I think the movie studio
made them take it down for destroying their work.

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So if you think about it, so the point about it is never forget the story, be flexible.

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And I think that's probably what it was, is that it's not so much that I knew where I was
going or even could envisage.

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I mean, that's the thing about it.

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Growing up,

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probably even for you, you just couldn't envisage how much tech has taken over the world.

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Anybody 40 year old, anybody who's been working 40 years, that's definitely true.

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Even 20 years, you're probably in a place where the internet was just, in fact, 20 years
ago, can tell you right now, I had more bandwidth and more access to the internet,

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ability, access to anything digital than 99 .99 % of the world.

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And that's only 20 years ago.

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So.

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So it's just about getting there and most people in digital just got there because no one
knew what they were doing, but they just knew a bit of something.

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And that's what I mean about everything you do before informs everything you do
afterwards.

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And it's why when, when, when times are tough and I've said this to my kids, listen, I
would, I would flip burgers in McDonald's in a heartbeat rather than not work.

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And I don't mean that in a bad way and be dismissive of people who can't work.

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I mean it in the sense there's two things.

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When you're working, guess what you can't do?

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Spend money.

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Right?

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because you're too busy.

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So you're working.

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The second thing is if you just go in there and do your best, I'll guarantee you, I would
be a manager of the local McDonald's in under six months if I went to work there cleaning

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the floor, sweeping the floor.

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Why wouldn't I be?

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Right?

217
00:13:54,104 --> 00:13:59,686
And it's because I would care and I'd want to do that and I'd put everything into it and
blah, blah, blah.

218
00:13:59,686 --> 00:14:03,003
So now you're flipping burgers and you meet someone.

219
00:14:03,003 --> 00:14:09,142
or you're at the till and someone comes in and says, hey, you seem like a cool guy.

220
00:14:09,142 --> 00:14:10,124
You're very well educated.

221
00:14:10,124 --> 00:14:11,325
You speak well, what's that?

222
00:14:11,325 --> 00:14:14,099
say, I finished college, I haven't got a job, blah, blah, blah.

223
00:14:14,099 --> 00:14:15,151
And they go, that's interesting.

224
00:14:15,151 --> 00:14:16,933
Here's my card, give me a call.

225
00:14:19,337 --> 00:14:20,997
That wouldn't happen if you were in bed.

226
00:14:20,997 --> 00:14:22,547
It wouldn't happen if you were in bed.

227
00:14:22,547 --> 00:14:25,897
So the point is keep doing, okay?

228
00:14:25,897 --> 00:14:36,617
There is one small proviso that people will tell you is that flipping burgers, if you just
do that and don't save time and energy to think of something else or just indulge another

229
00:14:36,617 --> 00:14:40,697
pattern to make yourself grow, you'll probably be in that job, but you'll be very senior.

230
00:14:40,697 --> 00:14:42,967
I mean, you could end up heading McDonald's in 50 years.

231
00:14:42,967 --> 00:14:45,397
It's possible, right?

232
00:14:45,637 --> 00:14:47,277
It's absolutely possible.

233
00:14:47,277 --> 00:14:48,967
So don't...

234
00:14:48,967 --> 00:14:53,686
restrict your thinking by your understanding of what the total job thing is.

235
00:14:53,686 --> 00:14:59,919
Just be prepared to keep learning, give everything you can in every job you do, right?

236
00:14:59,919 --> 00:15:01,661
And take opportunities.

237
00:15:01,848 --> 00:15:08,785
Well, and I mean, I'll say just from the beginning of the conversation where you talked
about where, you know, the fact that you got a degree in something that you ended up not

238
00:15:08,785 --> 00:15:16,933
doing at all, like it seems like there's a trend throughout your entire career of maybe
commit to a process, but be flexible to the outcome.

239
00:15:17,575 --> 00:15:24,449
Yeah, you know something, it's really, I sound incredibly entitled when I said this.

240
00:15:24,529 --> 00:15:26,871
I could not not go to college.

241
00:15:26,871 --> 00:15:28,362
Everybody in my family, right?

242
00:15:28,362 --> 00:15:29,122
Now this is the thing.

243
00:15:29,122 --> 00:15:37,657
So I'm of an age where that's quite unusual for everyone in your family, to have your mom,
your dad, all being to college.

244
00:15:37,657 --> 00:15:39,899
There was no expectation for me to do anything.

245
00:15:39,899 --> 00:15:44,029
Now I actually think that I probably wouldn't have gone to college if I'd thought about
it.

246
00:15:44,029 --> 00:15:47,996
I don't know what I would have done and I don't know whether the outcome would have been
better or not, but it's like,

247
00:15:49,863 --> 00:15:51,073
Might as well.

248
00:15:51,594 --> 00:15:52,235
And I did.

249
00:15:52,235 --> 00:15:53,105
And it was great fun.

250
00:15:53,105 --> 00:15:54,296
I had a good time in college.

251
00:15:54,296 --> 00:15:56,668
It gave me that piece of paper that says he got a degree.

252
00:15:56,668 --> 00:15:57,659
That's all it's for.

253
00:15:57,659 --> 00:16:00,161
And I don't mean that to be negative about it.

254
00:16:00,161 --> 00:16:02,102
Education is huge.

255
00:16:02,403 --> 00:16:05,285
But what you do with your education is even more important.

256
00:16:05,285 --> 00:16:09,778
But there's certain passports that you kind of have to have, but you need a visa, right?

257
00:16:09,778 --> 00:16:13,781
And a college degree is a sort of slightly better visa than not having a college degree.

258
00:16:13,781 --> 00:16:14,282
That's all.

259
00:16:14,282 --> 00:16:16,315
And that's the only reason I did it.

260
00:16:16,315 --> 00:16:18,757
You could also look at it and say it's one of my weaknesses.

261
00:16:18,757 --> 00:16:23,670
Maybe if I had planned, maybe if I had worked harder and thought it through.

262
00:16:23,670 --> 00:16:34,707
Two things, one, I wouldn't be me and two, I guess maybe there's hope for folks who don't
have, I mean, we use neurodiversity a lot, right?

263
00:16:34,707 --> 00:16:41,681
Who don't have the type of mind that allows them to put their head down and...

264
00:16:41,749 --> 00:16:45,753
Stay, you know say I want to be a lawyer and do the degree.

265
00:16:45,753 --> 00:16:46,183
know what?

266
00:16:46,183 --> 00:17:01,308
mean, there's some people whose brains just don't allow them to do that And you know, I've
known enough people with ADHD Now without a Diagnosis and it's extremely easy to do these

267
00:17:01,308 --> 00:17:02,869
days, but I have some of that in me.

268
00:17:02,869 --> 00:17:05,154
I just know that my

269
00:17:05,154 --> 00:17:11,170
the space you're working in, it seems like a natural fit, honestly, and maybe even a
strength in that space.

270
00:17:11,170 --> 00:17:19,639
So one of the things you were mentioning, like you've talked about the flexibility of
iterating, I'm gonna say, a lack of better term.

271
00:17:19,639 --> 00:17:23,042
So in all the spaces you've described that you've been working in.

272
00:17:23,302 --> 00:17:27,426
Iterating is almost better than landing on perfection from the beginning.

273
00:17:27,426 --> 00:17:38,475
rather than, as you're mentioning, taking the movie frame by frame or trying to perfect
every email, it's the process of iteration to try to get more content out there, to reach

274
00:17:38,475 --> 00:17:41,137
the right people, and to improve each time.

275
00:17:41,238 --> 00:17:50,055
It's probably, based on what you're describing, sounds like it's more valuable than
analysis, paralysis, and not getting anything out there or trying to only perfect one

276
00:17:50,055 --> 00:17:51,265
thing at a time.

277
00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:52,437
you

278
00:17:52,437 --> 00:17:53,837
I think you're right.

279
00:17:53,858 --> 00:18:00,380
The one thing I would say though, and I said I did economics, I was always better at
macroeconomics than microeconomics, right?

280
00:18:00,380 --> 00:18:02,541
I've always been better at the big picture.

281
00:18:03,182 --> 00:18:04,482
It's my gift.

282
00:18:04,482 --> 00:18:10,164
I see patterns that other people don't see, right?

283
00:18:10,164 --> 00:18:19,928
And the reason I see patterns is that I'm not fixated in, and this is another question
you're gonna ask me, that this is in this space, so it stays in this space.

284
00:18:19,928 --> 00:18:21,863
I've seen this behavior before.

285
00:18:21,863 --> 00:18:22,203
Right?

286
00:18:22,203 --> 00:18:29,617
I've seen this behavior before and I'm gonna bet you anything, fact, I'm not gonna bet,
I'm just gonna act on the fact that this will happen again.

287
00:18:29,617 --> 00:18:31,008
And if it doesn't, then I failed.

288
00:18:31,008 --> 00:18:35,000
And if it does, I've not wasted my time testing something that I know.

289
00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:35,801
Right?

290
00:18:35,801 --> 00:18:45,176
And one of my, possibly an anecdote, I learned very early that human beings are very
predictable in large numbers, right?

291
00:18:45,176 --> 00:18:47,317
They're almost impossible to predict as an individual.

292
00:18:47,317 --> 00:18:47,748
Right?

293
00:18:47,748 --> 00:18:49,248
That's our dilemma.

294
00:18:49,496 --> 00:18:51,503
Sure, that's it, yeah.

295
00:18:52,010 --> 00:19:03,488
so You know the you know if you watch a PBR and you see the wildebeest Migration a million
will be is going crossing the river and the crocodiles are waiting blah blah blah and

296
00:19:03,488 --> 00:19:11,643
they're crossing the reason that crocodiles are there is that you know that within the
three -week period a million forms of lunch are gonna come in front them, right?

297
00:19:12,695 --> 00:19:13,470
Right.

298
00:19:13,769 --> 00:19:20,889
The reason the wildebeest all go together is they know that if there's a million of them,
they can afford to lose 30 or 50 or whatever it is, herd wins, blah, blah, blah, blah,

299
00:19:20,889 --> 00:19:21,069
blah.

300
00:19:21,069 --> 00:19:26,529
But you can absolutely predict that within a three or four week window, a million or so
wildebeest are gonna come across this river.

301
00:19:26,529 --> 00:19:27,059
Okay?

302
00:19:27,059 --> 00:19:30,049
Unless something exceptional happens, a black swan or death.

303
00:19:30,109 --> 00:19:35,923
So I take a picture of that and then I show one wildebeest and say, now tell me he'll be
here next year.

304
00:19:37,794 --> 00:19:38,696
Right.

305
00:19:38,802 --> 00:19:39,387
Yeah.

306
00:19:39,387 --> 00:19:48,360
too many variables drought, pestilence, lion, poacher, hunter, you name it, disease, you
name it.

307
00:19:48,360 --> 00:19:53,851
So that's, that's one of the things that gives me comfort is that my brain allows me to be
comfortable anywhere.

308
00:19:53,851 --> 00:19:56,812
And I guess that's probably another reason why I was so quick to move into digital.

309
00:19:56,812 --> 00:20:00,873
I didn't need anyone to tell me that it was going to be big.

310
00:20:00,873 --> 00:20:01,263
Right.

311
00:20:01,263 --> 00:20:07,345
And it's the same thing with lots of the things that I've understood, you know, in terms
of iterating and testing.

312
00:20:07,345 --> 00:20:13,485
I just don't waste my time proving every negative can't happen before I take a step
forward.

313
00:20:14,296 --> 00:20:14,992
That makes sense.

314
00:20:14,992 --> 00:20:15,804
And I mean, I...

315
00:20:15,804 --> 00:20:17,799
people in the micro who love that, right?

316
00:20:17,799 --> 00:20:21,435
The spreadsheet warriors who are very good at that.

317
00:20:22,528 --> 00:20:27,525
They like to get stuck into like dig into the variables and just spend their time there.

318
00:20:27,525 --> 00:20:29,097
Yeah, no, I totally make sense.

319
00:20:29,097 --> 00:20:30,238
But I think

320
00:20:30,318 --> 00:20:38,892
People that are running their own businesses that are trying to figure out the next steps
It's easy to get scared and then lock yourself into like I need to solve this problem and

321
00:20:38,892 --> 00:20:46,907
I need to solve every variable before I take a step forward and I think that's where lots
of people and at least my conversations get really stuck to not want to iterate because

322
00:20:46,907 --> 00:20:53,069
they're committing to a process that they don't know what the results are going to be and
then decide is that the right place to spend my time and energy

323
00:20:53,654 --> 00:21:01,465
Is that, like when you're talking to clients that are looking to you for advice, is that
something that you run into a lot or do you have to help people through that process?

324
00:21:02,323 --> 00:21:04,354
Well, there's, clients has two bits.

325
00:21:04,354 --> 00:21:06,674
There's what I did before, right?

326
00:21:06,674 --> 00:21:11,816
Which is selling agency services and helping clients have better email marketing programs.

327
00:21:11,816 --> 00:21:13,276
And there's what I do now.

328
00:21:13,276 --> 00:21:23,189
And what I do now is I try and, I've said this to you before, and in fact, that's how we
got to know you sort of, we're trying to take advantage of my service.

329
00:21:23,189 --> 00:21:25,740
So basically it's, like advisory stuff, right?

330
00:21:25,740 --> 00:21:27,401
I like having conversations with people.

331
00:21:27,401 --> 00:21:28,849
I like learning from people.

332
00:21:28,849 --> 00:21:35,534
And I do love solving problems and I have a huge amount of expertise in digital marketing,
right?

333
00:21:36,015 --> 00:21:47,775
Agency stroke business running and hiring people and nurturing people for, you know, I,
not all of those are my absolute skills, but those are things I've had a lot of experience

334
00:21:47,775 --> 00:21:48,485
in.

335
00:21:48,765 --> 00:21:54,530
So if you come to me today, then absolutely that's what I'll be telling you.

336
00:21:54,530 --> 00:21:54,970
Right?

337
00:21:54,970 --> 00:21:57,493
Because this is you as an individual.

338
00:21:57,493 --> 00:21:58,493
Okay.

339
00:21:58,597 --> 00:22:07,925
If it's a business, there's no point saying that to someone who has to report to the CMO,
who's then got to report to the CFO and get budget signed off the next year that may or

340
00:22:07,925 --> 00:22:08,546
may not be.

341
00:22:08,546 --> 00:22:11,928
That's a completely different process, right?

342
00:22:12,009 --> 00:22:16,772
And it requires different skills and different output.

343
00:22:17,914 --> 00:22:26,697
we spoke ourselves and I sort of was joking saying, I was hoping you'd be calling me to
ask for my advice because what people don't know is...

344
00:22:26,697 --> 00:22:33,397
I sort of said an ask Stella or anything, ask me anything thing is because it's, it's
bringing problems to me, right?

345
00:22:33,397 --> 00:22:34,636
And I'm enjoying it.

346
00:22:34,636 --> 00:22:39,997
even if I, happens apart from the 45 minutes free advice that I give, first of all, it's
free advice.

347
00:22:39,997 --> 00:22:41,397
take it or leave it number one.

348
00:22:41,397 --> 00:22:44,117
And number two, you can't say that's not good enough.

349
00:22:44,117 --> 00:22:45,877
It's free.

350
00:22:47,217 --> 00:22:51,017
And secondly, it, it, I just enjoy it.

351
00:22:51,017 --> 00:22:54,717
And you know, the, the, the feedback you get from people who said, you made me

352
00:22:54,717 --> 00:22:57,641
really flipped the way I thought about things.

353
00:22:57,641 --> 00:22:59,142
So yeah, absolutely.

354
00:22:59,142 --> 00:23:03,697
mean, telling a client the world of your story requires a different narrative.

355
00:23:03,697 --> 00:23:05,169
Does that make sense?

356
00:23:05,169 --> 00:23:08,974
From me telling you about how business works?

357
00:23:08,974 --> 00:23:10,045
Does that make sense?

358
00:23:10,045 --> 00:23:10,995
And blah, blah, blah.

359
00:23:10,995 --> 00:23:14,060
So it depends on the layers of management in between.

360
00:23:14,060 --> 00:23:15,203
I hope that makes sense.

361
00:23:15,203 --> 00:23:16,024
yeah, it does.

362
00:23:16,024 --> 00:23:29,917
think when you've got people coming to ask ask Della anything, mean, one, how long have
you been kind of thinking about this kind of an idea where you were going to come to the

363
00:23:29,917 --> 00:23:33,700
market and you were gonna give options, give people the opportunity to reach out to you?

364
00:23:33,700 --> 00:23:40,085
And then maybe what are some things that you surprised you once you kind of put yourself
out there when they started asking?

365
00:23:40,381 --> 00:23:41,381
Hmm.

366
00:23:41,762 --> 00:23:49,368
So I probably been thinking about it ever since I finished with the company I sold, is
Alchemy Works, right?

367
00:23:49,368 --> 00:23:55,432
So I had a very protracted, out, stroke consulting engagement with them after I sold.

368
00:23:55,432 --> 00:23:57,413
It was like more than five years.

369
00:23:57,954 --> 00:24:06,130
I'm still very, very close with the current owner and, you know, lot of the folks who
worked there with me over the years and everything else.

370
00:24:06,130 --> 00:24:07,420
So.

371
00:24:09,499 --> 00:24:11,730
It was like, what do I do?

372
00:24:11,730 --> 00:24:12,601
Okay.

373
00:24:12,601 --> 00:24:15,793
And not in an existential way.

374
00:24:15,793 --> 00:24:27,420
I'm lucky that that isn't an issue, but certainly in a sort of, it's nicer to see the pot
staying the same or growing than it is to watch the pot draining, however big it is.

375
00:24:27,420 --> 00:24:28,581
It doesn't matter how big it is.

376
00:24:28,581 --> 00:24:30,762
Watching the pot draining is not a great thing.

377
00:24:30,762 --> 00:24:35,677
And also you've got to keep your mind active and stuff and keep going.

378
00:24:35,677 --> 00:24:43,502
So I just, I've been thinking about it for a while and I'm going, how am I going to get
people, how am going to find people to engage in everything else?

379
00:24:43,502 --> 00:24:50,487
And I just thought maybe just do ASTL or anything and start promoting it and effectively
bringing the freemium model.

380
00:24:50,487 --> 00:24:55,810
So the only thing I ask is if my advice is good, give me a LinkedIn testimonial.

381
00:24:55,810 --> 00:24:56,260
That's it.

382
00:24:56,260 --> 00:24:59,472
Don't give it to me if it was crap advice or anything else.

383
00:24:59,933 --> 00:25:00,733
And

384
00:25:01,553 --> 00:25:08,701
So the best way of describing how testimonial wise or what I'm doing is just going to look
at the recent current testimonials on my LinkedIn profile.

385
00:25:08,922 --> 00:25:10,494
It just will give you a sense.

386
00:25:10,494 --> 00:25:14,770
So oftentimes people building a product, right?

387
00:25:14,770 --> 00:25:17,863
Mostly they're engineers and mathematicians, right?

388
00:25:18,658 --> 00:25:19,294
Yeah.

389
00:25:19,294 --> 00:25:20,180
Yeah.

390
00:25:20,481 --> 00:25:22,563
what the heck do they know about marketing?

391
00:25:22,723 --> 00:25:23,663
Right?

392
00:25:24,584 --> 00:25:31,639
So they fix problems that are in their own head that someone has told them about, or even
if they someone a marketer said this is a problem, fix it.

393
00:25:31,639 --> 00:25:36,532
It's fixed with an engineering mindset with no real understanding of how human beings
normally do.

394
00:25:36,532 --> 00:25:37,733
What do engineers do?

395
00:25:37,733 --> 00:25:42,135
Well, most engineers and mathematicians practice zero inbox.

396
00:25:42,516 --> 00:25:44,967
They're freaks, right?

397
00:25:45,022 --> 00:25:50,577
which is, yeah, it seems like that's not an experience that I would have or most people
that I work with.

398
00:25:50,577 --> 00:25:53,389
mom, no, I mean, nobody has my mom will look at every email.

399
00:25:53,389 --> 00:25:54,800
I don't think she deletes each one.

400
00:25:54,800 --> 00:26:00,985
Zero inbox is just a state of mind for folks on this end of the bell curve, right?

401
00:26:00,985 --> 00:26:02,466
That tiny, that's them.

402
00:26:02,466 --> 00:26:02,896
Okay.

403
00:26:02,896 --> 00:26:05,647
And yet they're building tools and products for marketing.

404
00:26:06,949 --> 00:26:11,342
So when a bunch of engineers and mathematicians who set up a product, right.

405
00:26:11,342 --> 00:26:18,697
And they go, listen, Delia here, you know, everything about this, you know, tell me what
you think about my product or what oftentimes the application is very different from what

406
00:26:18,697 --> 00:26:19,665
they think.

407
00:26:19,665 --> 00:26:29,471
or the problem they think they're fixing is not so much not a problem, okay, but the fix
is there.

408
00:26:29,471 --> 00:26:34,274
And I keep trying, especially in the email space, email marketers are obsessed with doing
stuff manually.

409
00:26:34,274 --> 00:26:36,175
So they have fixes for everything.

410
00:26:36,175 --> 00:26:42,809
And so if you say to someone, here's a tool that you've got to learn to use that will fix
this problem, they'll go, no, but I do this in my sleep anyway.

411
00:26:42,809 --> 00:26:46,881
So they have to understand that to understand why.

412
00:26:47,139 --> 00:26:53,174
you know, a hardcore email market that might not be excited by this tool that they built
that's going to make their life different.

413
00:26:53,174 --> 00:26:55,276
And the answer is because not there.

414
00:26:55,276 --> 00:26:59,230
It may make the life for someone who doesn't know much about email better, right?

415
00:26:59,230 --> 00:27:01,702
But then don't sell it to agencies.

416
00:27:01,702 --> 00:27:03,983
So it's helping people understand the market.

417
00:27:04,064 --> 00:27:06,947
It's helping them understand the story that they have.

418
00:27:06,947 --> 00:27:07,927
Right.

419
00:27:09,209 --> 00:27:14,432
And I know enough about business and I built an agency right to show them

420
00:27:14,695 --> 00:27:24,219
many of the pitfalls and starting up, I've also built software before, So the pitfalls,
the things that you have to watch out for, the things you have to try and make sure you

421
00:27:24,219 --> 00:27:28,891
do, I just have a ton of experience and most people are gonna make those mistakes anyway.

422
00:27:28,891 --> 00:27:33,333
But being able to just run it off me and I'll say, ha, this is what's gonna happen to you.

423
00:27:33,333 --> 00:27:34,973
And they go, you know, that's funny.

424
00:27:34,973 --> 00:27:42,736
You just told me in five minutes, this was a quote to me the other day, you just told me
in five minutes, something that's taken us four months to learn, right?

425
00:27:43,016 --> 00:27:46,282
it came from a totally different perspective than they did, which is...

426
00:27:46,282 --> 00:27:47,953
I just know the market inside out.

427
00:27:47,953 --> 00:27:55,708
And so you need to understand that nuance in order to sort of like present your business
in a way that makes it more likely to be successful.

428
00:27:55,809 --> 00:28:01,301
And the other place I help a lot is careers and stuff like that.

429
00:28:01,301 --> 00:28:02,573
So I'll give you an example.

430
00:28:02,573 --> 00:28:05,545
If someone called up and said, hey, listen, I want to start a podcast.

431
00:28:05,545 --> 00:28:09,398
I want to be somebody like you, a careers advisor, an advisory kind of person.

432
00:28:09,398 --> 00:28:10,839
How do you go about it?

433
00:28:10,859 --> 00:28:14,051
You know, the first thing I'm going to ask is why do you want to do that?

434
00:28:15,313 --> 00:28:18,835
I asked really stupid questions, right?

435
00:28:18,955 --> 00:28:19,585
Are you sure?

436
00:28:19,585 --> 00:28:22,757
And when I was hiring, it was kind of a joke.

437
00:28:22,757 --> 00:28:28,200
You're probably, maybe I said this to you before, but you're probably familiar with Harry
Potter and the sorting hat, right?

438
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:34,693
When you got to the school, we put the sorting hat on and the sorting hat would really
look deep into you and tell you which house you wanted to be in, right?

439
00:28:34,693 --> 00:28:35,864
Or should be in.

440
00:28:36,845 --> 00:28:38,926
I'm a bit of a sorting hat for careers.

441
00:28:38,926 --> 00:28:40,507
There are three places you can go, right?

442
00:28:40,507 --> 00:28:44,168
can solo, you know, build your own business.

443
00:28:44,249 --> 00:28:45,249
You can...

444
00:28:45,341 --> 00:28:48,642
Work agency side, can work client side, right?

445
00:28:48,823 --> 00:28:50,284
Those are the three things.

446
00:28:50,284 --> 00:28:56,657
So really the first thing I'm trying to do before I answer the questions about which you
should do is why do you want to do any?

447
00:28:56,657 --> 00:28:57,768
What are you actually good at?

448
00:28:57,768 --> 00:28:59,268
What do you like doing?

449
00:28:59,429 --> 00:28:59,889
Yeah.

450
00:28:59,889 --> 00:29:05,131
So let me once, if you don't like managing people, then there's a whole bunch of jobs you
just shouldn't do, right?

451
00:29:07,873 --> 00:29:15,477
For example, and a lot of the email marketers are in the nicest possible way, control
freaks.

452
00:29:16,502 --> 00:29:18,083
attention to detail.

453
00:29:18,124 --> 00:29:19,967
That's why they're in that space, right?

454
00:29:19,967 --> 00:29:22,990
They'll never let it go out with a mistake in it.

455
00:29:23,010 --> 00:29:25,563
But that makes it hard for them to delegate.

456
00:29:26,563 --> 00:29:27,261
Yep.

457
00:29:27,261 --> 00:29:28,502
So that's another example.

458
00:29:28,502 --> 00:29:33,964
Do you realize that if you want to go down that path, you're going to have to give up a
bunch of shit that you hold really dear.

459
00:29:33,964 --> 00:29:35,005
Can you do that?

460
00:29:35,005 --> 00:29:37,926
So it's sort of that, that, that's, that's the sort of conversation.

461
00:29:37,926 --> 00:29:41,008
And I don't, I don't pretend to be an expert.

462
00:29:41,008 --> 00:29:45,470
think that I, I'm always surprised.

463
00:29:45,690 --> 00:29:46,700
I'm an empath.

464
00:29:46,700 --> 00:29:52,413
It's, I don't even know why, because there's nothing about my persona.

465
00:29:54,065 --> 00:29:54,936
It doesn't come naturally.

466
00:29:54,936 --> 00:29:55,606
think that's why it is.

467
00:29:55,606 --> 00:29:56,436
It doesn't come naturally.

468
00:29:56,436 --> 00:29:59,678
I've had to learn to be an empath.

469
00:29:59,678 --> 00:30:03,471
I've had to learn rather than it come naturally to me.

470
00:30:03,471 --> 00:30:03,991
Okay.

471
00:30:03,991 --> 00:30:08,764
So it just means that I am very quick and yeah, up to the point.

472
00:30:08,764 --> 00:30:11,055
So I'm an empath who says it as it is.

473
00:30:11,255 --> 00:30:12,416
Right.

474
00:30:12,416 --> 00:30:14,337
So yeah, great.

475
00:30:14,337 --> 00:30:16,658
I feel for you, but you're being an idiot.

476
00:30:19,252 --> 00:30:27,140
Well, I mean, how do you, mean, you're in spaces where if you're talking to people that
are like, maybe they're saying, I want to be this and this and this, I want to manage

477
00:30:27,140 --> 00:30:27,701
people.

478
00:30:27,701 --> 00:30:36,128
And you start asking them this question, maybe they don't naturally have that skills,
maybe that's not a natural fit for them.

479
00:30:36,730 --> 00:30:37,430
But.

480
00:30:37,430 --> 00:30:44,205
In the process, perhaps they discover, actually, you know, now that I've thought this out
with you, we've talked about and I've answered some of your questions, maybe they discover

481
00:30:44,205 --> 00:30:49,719
themselves, actually, yeah, I know I need to, I have to delegate to be able to get to
where I'm trying to go.

482
00:30:49,719 --> 00:30:53,872
Do you give them advice on how to move from where they are to where they're trying to go?

483
00:30:53,872 --> 00:31:00,586
Or did they often just discover, actually, you're right, this isn't a good fit for me, I
should have never gone down this path.

484
00:31:00,649 --> 00:31:05,069
So there are more than 10 ,000 how to write a novel books, right?

485
00:31:05,429 --> 00:31:07,769
And there aren't 10 ,000 novelists.

486
00:31:07,769 --> 00:31:09,249
Why is that?

487
00:31:09,249 --> 00:31:12,519
Okay, so it's kind of the how -to.

488
00:31:12,519 --> 00:31:13,929
That's not my gig.

489
00:31:13,929 --> 00:31:19,199
As soon as I go how -to, I have to give you training courses, have a list of shit.

490
00:31:19,199 --> 00:31:19,889
Do you see what I mean?

491
00:31:19,889 --> 00:31:21,529
Tell you this is the way you need to do it.

492
00:31:21,529 --> 00:31:25,509
And what I'm trying to do is I'm teaching you how to tap into your own power.

493
00:31:25,509 --> 00:31:29,521
And that sounds kind kind of crappy, but I just, you know, if you don't...

494
00:31:29,521 --> 00:31:32,843
It's so much easier to do something because you want to, right?

495
00:31:32,843 --> 00:31:38,227
And someone asking me, do I need to go on this course is speaking to the wrong person.

496
00:31:39,528 --> 00:31:40,268
Yeah.

497
00:31:40,268 --> 00:31:47,693
You're either on the course or you're wasting my time and your time by asking me about
stuff that you know about, right?

498
00:31:48,374 --> 00:31:53,017
So, you know, I mean, I might say to someone, you'll need an MBA for that.

499
00:31:53,017 --> 00:31:55,379
And they'll go, yeah, I know I'm applying.

500
00:31:55,379 --> 00:31:56,179
Great.

501
00:31:56,179 --> 00:31:57,320
That's fine.

502
00:31:57,700 --> 00:31:59,041
You know what to do.

503
00:31:59,163 --> 00:32:00,214
You're on the path.

504
00:32:00,214 --> 00:32:02,336
You don't really need me.

505
00:32:02,336 --> 00:32:07,140
Where folks need me is they're going, I just don't know.

506
00:32:07,140 --> 00:32:07,470
Right.

507
00:32:07,470 --> 00:32:08,351
That's the thing.

508
00:32:08,351 --> 00:32:11,523
I don't know what I want to do.

509
00:32:11,743 --> 00:32:15,806
I know what I should do or I think I should be doing.

510
00:32:16,547 --> 00:32:19,089
And then it's just about speaking through.

511
00:32:19,089 --> 00:32:20,861
You realize if you do this, this and the other.

512
00:32:20,861 --> 00:32:22,782
And so one of them is managing people, right?

513
00:32:22,782 --> 00:32:26,055
Another one is delegation, right?

514
00:32:26,055 --> 00:32:28,669
If you can't do those two things, there's certain jobs you can't do.

515
00:32:28,669 --> 00:32:34,331
The other thing is, this your forever next step or it's your next step, next step.

516
00:32:34,331 --> 00:32:42,394
If it's your next step, next step, next step, then just do whatever, but pick up
different, try and round up your experiences.

517
00:32:42,394 --> 00:32:44,365
Or it could be, I'll give you an example.

518
00:32:44,365 --> 00:32:49,947
If your path is more corporate, then oftentimes it's better to stay in the same place,
right?

519
00:32:51,022 --> 00:32:52,847
Okay, I see what you're saying.

520
00:32:52,847 --> 00:32:56,328
you know, and even then there's no rule.

521
00:32:56,328 --> 00:32:57,859
Here's what I found.

522
00:32:57,859 --> 00:33:07,043
At any given time, let's say I was to take one of my random friends or whatever it is,
people I've known or I left college with or whatever it is, and every two years looked at

523
00:33:07,043 --> 00:33:11,245
who was where in career, right?

524
00:33:11,245 --> 00:33:12,025
It flipped.

525
00:33:12,025 --> 00:33:15,156
So one year it's this and another year it's that and blah, blah, blah.

526
00:33:15,156 --> 00:33:20,288
And the other thing is some people change, some people progress by going diagonally.

527
00:33:20,509 --> 00:33:22,039
That's how they climb the ladder.

528
00:33:22,633 --> 00:33:25,273
That looks faster in the short term.

529
00:33:25,273 --> 00:33:26,573
Okay.

530
00:33:27,913 --> 00:33:36,973
But in the long term, it's arguably harder than someone who just sat and waited until the
CEO job became vacant.

531
00:33:36,973 --> 00:33:37,293
Right?

532
00:33:37,293 --> 00:33:38,993
They just sat there for 25 years.

533
00:33:38,993 --> 00:33:40,973
I'm being flippant.

534
00:33:41,206 --> 00:33:53,341
yeah, I I've seen and heard, for example, like executive assistants move into director of
operations and then you've quickly moved yourself into an executive role and leadership.

535
00:33:53,341 --> 00:33:54,481
absolutely.

536
00:33:54,481 --> 00:33:55,541
Well, it's not quickly.

537
00:33:55,541 --> 00:33:57,721
That's a 20, 30 year gig.

538
00:33:58,061 --> 00:33:59,041
Okay.

539
00:33:59,041 --> 00:34:01,241
It feels really slow.

540
00:34:01,241 --> 00:34:05,731
There are many times in that 30 years when you think this is, know, I want to slit my
wrists.

541
00:34:05,731 --> 00:34:06,801
This is just terrible.

542
00:34:06,801 --> 00:34:07,271
Okay.

543
00:34:07,271 --> 00:34:16,571
And then you look to the left, right, that idiot who was less good than you is now CEO of
that over there, or has just jumped into a startup and has made a ton of money on exit or,

544
00:34:16,571 --> 00:34:18,861
know, because they IPO'd or whatever.

545
00:34:20,061 --> 00:34:21,839
It's stuff, right?

546
00:34:21,976 --> 00:34:22,357
Sure.

547
00:34:22,357 --> 00:34:29,237
five years time or ten years time, the person who IPO'd and had a ton of money may be
sitting down with almost nothing because they didn't do anything else, they spent all

548
00:34:29,237 --> 00:34:38,271
their money blah blah blah and you just chugged your way to CEO of a really boring
corporation and earning $2 million a year and have a gold plate of pension.

549
00:34:40,521 --> 00:34:45,441
So I think the point about it is you have to, you've got to be true to yourself, right?

550
00:34:45,441 --> 00:34:48,521
There's certain things and that's what I, that's the sorting hat thing, right?

551
00:34:48,521 --> 00:34:52,101
No, the sorting hat didn't put you where you should be.

552
00:34:52,241 --> 00:34:54,401
It put you where you needed to be, if that makes sense.

553
00:34:54,401 --> 00:34:57,601
So that it's, it's kind of, yeah, that's how I see it.

554
00:34:57,601 --> 00:34:59,201
It's like, look, let's, let's talk it through.

555
00:34:59,201 --> 00:35:05,761
And in 45 minutes, you'd be surprised at how, and people often say that to me.

556
00:35:05,761 --> 00:35:07,399
I can't believe how.

557
00:35:07,399 --> 00:35:14,459
direct the questions you asked me and how random they appeared to be but I'm glad you did
because you made me think and I think that's it.

558
00:35:14,459 --> 00:35:16,040
Della made me think.

559
00:35:16,983 --> 00:35:19,156
Della made me think.

560
00:35:19,156 --> 00:35:20,587
That's what I do.

561
00:35:21,940 --> 00:35:26,885
well, like the kind of people that you're trying to talk to, I'm guessing, you know,
there's pretty wide variety.

562
00:35:26,885 --> 00:35:30,869
you noticed any trends in the people that you're having these conversations with?

563
00:35:32,670 --> 00:35:36,043
Two main ones, startups and people thinking about their career, right?

564
00:35:36,043 --> 00:35:46,522
Well, three, startups, tech startups in more tech space, People thinking about their
career and then the folks in the middle of people who run agencies.

565
00:35:46,963 --> 00:35:52,427
And the number one question for agencies is, how do I win more clients?

566
00:35:53,376 --> 00:35:55,630
Yeah, all in the business development space.

567
00:35:55,630 --> 00:36:02,000
I'm sure lots of people are trying to get that answer because it's really hard to pin down
in the life cycle of your business.

568
00:36:02,926 --> 00:36:09,522
toughest things that I've experienced and I'm sure many of your clients have experienced
is, know, I've either hit a plateau or I know I need to grow.

569
00:36:09,522 --> 00:36:19,541
And in your space, when you run into those kinds of conversations, I mean, the advice can
be all over the place, but is there a trend of like, this is what I found to be most

570
00:36:19,541 --> 00:36:22,604
effective to people that are running into these kinds of conversations?

571
00:36:22,604 --> 00:36:25,146
Or is it always unique to the business?

572
00:36:26,065 --> 00:36:31,309
I think it's unique to the business stroke person, right?

573
00:36:31,309 --> 00:36:35,772
And because of that, it's hard to be more precise or whatever it is.

574
00:36:35,772 --> 00:36:39,744
I mean, the answer to, how do I get more business?

575
00:36:39,744 --> 00:36:41,145
And the answer is with great difficulty.

576
00:36:41,145 --> 00:36:44,397
If it was easy, we'd all be billionaires, right?

577
00:36:44,438 --> 00:36:45,939
Every one of us would be a billionaire.

578
00:36:45,939 --> 00:36:48,140
So it's not easy and I'm not a magic bullet.

579
00:36:48,140 --> 00:36:50,742
And in fact, I'm not here to change your world in that way.

580
00:36:50,742 --> 00:36:54,324
But what I can do is build a better story and give you a sense of how...

581
00:36:57,011 --> 00:36:59,534
to build on your storytelling.

582
00:36:59,534 --> 00:37:00,375
Does that make sense?

583
00:37:00,375 --> 00:37:07,734
How to understand better what your audience is actually looking for, right?

584
00:37:08,035 --> 00:37:13,341
And not to project your thinking onto your audience.

585
00:37:13,494 --> 00:37:22,088
Right, so instead of them, obviously when they're looking for an answer to business
development, you're either thinking really far ahead or you're behind the eight ball and

586
00:37:22,088 --> 00:37:27,871
you should have been doing this a while ago and you're panicking and that's why I'm sure
people are looking to you for a magic bullet like, I need an answer yesterday.

587
00:37:27,871 --> 00:37:30,261
And sometimes it's just.

588
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:48,301
I think I've sort of alluded to it and it's too complicated to really say in a few words,
but in essence, it's about why are you different?

589
00:37:50,183 --> 00:37:51,915
Why are you different?

590
00:37:52,136 --> 00:37:52,617
Right?

591
00:37:52,617 --> 00:37:55,361
And if it's just faster, better, cheaper.

592
00:37:57,671 --> 00:37:58,381
So

593
00:37:59,181 --> 00:37:59,986
Right.

594
00:38:16,118 --> 00:38:18,652
Right.

595
00:38:18,652 --> 00:38:25,230
So how do get them to identify the story or get behind a story that they need to be
telling about themselves?

596
00:38:25,230 --> 00:38:27,673
Is this something that you're...

597
00:38:28,138 --> 00:38:32,309
so that's when it oftentimes will turn into a long term engagement, right?

598
00:38:32,309 --> 00:38:34,581
So remember, this is partly my business development.

599
00:38:34,581 --> 00:38:35,921
So how do you do business development?

600
00:38:35,921 --> 00:38:40,423
You set up an Astell or anything, give you time away for free, right?

601
00:38:40,423 --> 00:38:41,863
And be prepared.

602
00:38:42,124 --> 00:38:46,766
Yes, but that will only work if you actually enjoy doing it, right?

603
00:38:46,766 --> 00:38:54,139
And also you actually deliver because there's a limit to, you know, how many people are
going to...

604
00:38:54,857 --> 00:38:58,207
come to you and the other thing is I've tried to make it as wide as possible.

605
00:38:58,207 --> 00:38:59,717
Just ask me anything.

606
00:38:59,717 --> 00:39:05,377
If you just want to ring up and say, how tall are you?

607
00:39:05,377 --> 00:39:08,317
I'll spend 45 minutes with you on that.

608
00:39:08,317 --> 00:39:11,157
But in that time, I'll find out a bit about you.

609
00:39:11,157 --> 00:39:13,287
I'll find out how you heard about me.

610
00:39:13,287 --> 00:39:20,737
I'm doing a bit of market research and the chances of you being a firefighter are nearly
zero.

611
00:39:20,737 --> 00:39:23,777
You're gonna be in my space because that's my network.

612
00:39:24,492 --> 00:39:25,286
Right.

613
00:39:25,790 --> 00:39:29,965
So I have a pre -qualified audience, right?

614
00:39:29,965 --> 00:39:32,939
And it's just about coming up with a product that's a little bit different.

615
00:39:32,939 --> 00:39:35,301
Lots of people give free calls, right?

616
00:39:35,703 --> 00:39:36,684
Think about it.

617
00:39:36,684 --> 00:39:41,319
Go look at lots and lots of people who are consultants and they're all saying, book a free
call.

618
00:39:41,396 --> 00:39:44,568
free consultation or yeah, yeah, know what mean.

619
00:39:44,977 --> 00:39:53,093
Yeah, so I'm I'm telling a better story if that makes sense, then book a consultation with
me.

620
00:39:54,018 --> 00:39:58,883
Well, now that you've done this, how long have you been running Rascale Denning?

621
00:39:58,883 --> 00:40:01,348
effectively about four or five months.

622
00:40:02,132 --> 00:40:04,337
No, three or four months, effectively.

623
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:14,507
and you've kind of, I know you mentioned you've been chewing on this idea for a while, you
actually did it as a result of, it sounds like an exit, like you've exited your previous

624
00:40:14,507 --> 00:40:19,981
business, which by the way, all by itself, lots of people would be excited and interested
what that experience is like.

625
00:40:19,981 --> 00:40:22,552
Lots of people wanna have that experience for themselves.

626
00:40:22,893 --> 00:40:30,754
But you've come out the other end of it, and now you're bringing your skills to market in
a new way, people can learn about how

627
00:40:30,754 --> 00:40:34,460
build their own businesses through working with you and having these conversations.

628
00:40:34,460 --> 00:40:38,405
Has there been anything in those last three, four months that you've experienced after
going marketing?

629
00:40:38,405 --> 00:40:40,138
You were like, I didn't expect this.

630
00:40:40,138 --> 00:40:41,580
This was a surprising conversation.

631
00:40:41,580 --> 00:40:45,265
Because as to anything, it's got a lot of opportunity to bring surprises.

632
00:40:45,265 --> 00:40:46,696
It's really open, right?

633
00:40:49,428 --> 00:40:50,817
or is it such a, you know.

634
00:40:50,817 --> 00:40:55,137
surprised by how much I've been able to help folks.

635
00:40:55,257 --> 00:40:55,897
Right?

636
00:40:55,897 --> 00:40:58,137
I didn't go into this without that confidence.

637
00:40:58,137 --> 00:40:59,857
I knew I could do it, right?

638
00:40:59,857 --> 00:41:01,697
I've been doing this for years, okay?

639
00:41:01,697 --> 00:41:06,847
I've had well over 250 people work for me over the years.

640
00:41:06,847 --> 00:41:07,897
Do get what I mean?

641
00:41:07,897 --> 00:41:11,597
Just in my own business, let alone anything that I did before.

642
00:41:12,517 --> 00:41:14,657
you know, I kind of...

643
00:41:16,409 --> 00:41:25,815
I, yeah, I, I, I'm just, I'm just surprised at how much value I've been able to deliver,
right?

644
00:41:26,896 --> 00:41:33,030
genuinely good feeling, genuinely, great networking experience.

645
00:41:33,030 --> 00:41:35,862
I'm learning all the time, right?

646
00:41:35,862 --> 00:41:44,318
Because for someone to help someone with a problem, you have to very least understand the
basics of the environment they're in or what brings them to you.

647
00:41:44,318 --> 00:41:45,169
Does that make sense?

648
00:41:45,169 --> 00:41:46,029
So.

649
00:41:46,411 --> 00:41:54,826
was there any problem that came up that you didn't expect of any type that it was
something you hadn't dealt with in the past and you were like, this has opened up new

650
00:41:54,826 --> 00:41:57,950
kinds of conversations, something that you can...

651
00:41:57,950 --> 00:41:59,912
I'll tell you what happened.

652
00:41:59,912 --> 00:42:05,718
No, it's more about, remember I'm talking to lots of people and helping lots of people,
okay?

653
00:42:05,718 --> 00:42:13,546
So this week's conversation, I'll find out about a need that I hadn't really thought very
much about, okay?

654
00:42:13,546 --> 00:42:15,007
Sorry, my hand's out of shot.

655
00:42:15,007 --> 00:42:20,022
I'm looking at this need and I'm like, yeah, I hadn't really thought about that.

656
00:42:20,022 --> 00:42:21,273
That's interesting.

657
00:42:21,981 --> 00:42:23,912
And so we have the conversation and blah, blah.

658
00:42:23,912 --> 00:42:34,489
And then either a week before or two weeks later, or what day would it two weeks later,
someone else comes up and says, I just built a tool, right, that I think does A, okay?

659
00:42:34,530 --> 00:42:41,614
And I'm there thinking, this looks like it'd be absolutely what the person I was talking
to needs.

660
00:42:42,676 --> 00:42:43,776
Okay?

661
00:42:43,797 --> 00:42:49,580
So it's great to be able to sort of put people together and just say, you know, and
that...

662
00:42:50,433 --> 00:42:52,354
Again, remember I'm looking for work, right?

663
00:42:52,354 --> 00:42:56,257
Everybody I help, they'll remember that I helped them and remembers it.

664
00:42:56,377 --> 00:42:59,529
If anyone asks them a question, they'll say, just ask Della, right?

665
00:42:59,529 --> 00:43:01,961
You know, I'm just trying to build up that.

666
00:43:01,961 --> 00:43:15,591
And if I was to say, you know, if I had an ambition, if I had an ambition would be have
enough of a track record, give me six months, it could be less, right?

667
00:43:15,591 --> 00:43:19,357
If someone's interested before, it could be less, but say give me six to nine months.

668
00:43:19,357 --> 00:43:24,301
I'll probably have enough of a track record to be able to sort of say, look, I'm helping.

669
00:43:24,301 --> 00:43:26,813
I'm delivering about this number of hours, right?

670
00:43:26,813 --> 00:43:31,286
Which breaks down into these three types of problems or whatever it is.

671
00:43:31,567 --> 00:43:35,140
These are the job specs of the folks go look for a sponsor.

672
00:43:35,140 --> 00:43:36,951
It's kind of media, isn't it?

673
00:43:37,132 --> 00:43:38,613
And I said this to you before.

674
00:43:38,613 --> 00:43:45,779
mean, the way I see it is I'm giving people individual interviews with me, right?

675
00:43:45,779 --> 00:43:48,741
It's like a, it's like a one -to -one podcast, right?

676
00:43:48,985 --> 00:43:57,098
So instead of just doing a podcast and spreading it out to a thousand people, I'm getting
a thousand different people to come and spend an hour podcast with me, just like we're

677
00:43:57,098 --> 00:43:57,669
doing right now.

678
00:43:57,669 --> 00:43:59,729
That's, that's in essence what it is.

679
00:43:59,850 --> 00:44:09,504
And it should be possible to get a recruitment company or a tech company or just whatever
somebody to say, I really like that idea and I'll sponsor this.

680
00:44:09,504 --> 00:44:14,906
And then all that will happen is at the beginning of the call, just when I say this bit is
free, I'll tell you everything for free.

681
00:44:14,906 --> 00:44:17,017
But if you ever do want to hire me, these are the terms.

682
00:44:17,017 --> 00:44:17,907
And by the way,

683
00:44:17,907 --> 00:44:21,459
please click on the sponsor link or I'm gonna share your details.

684
00:44:21,459 --> 00:44:24,121
You may get a call from a salesperson.

685
00:44:24,722 --> 00:44:25,192
That's it.

686
00:44:25,192 --> 00:44:27,764
And if you don't wanna do that, then you can leave now.

687
00:44:27,764 --> 00:44:36,349
But it'd be nice to have a sponsorship because then it means that more of my time could be
free, if that makes sense.

688
00:44:36,349 --> 00:44:41,232
Because I do have to, I do need to have some paid time.

689
00:44:41,613 --> 00:44:42,505
So.

690
00:44:42,505 --> 00:44:49,500
in that vein, listeners that have had a chance to hear your expertise and some of the
people you've helped, what would be...

691
00:44:49,900 --> 00:44:54,935
the kind of person you're saying that you would like to say, hey, ask Bill anything.

692
00:44:56,117 --> 00:45:00,040
I'm opening up to try to help this particular kind of person.

693
00:45:00,201 --> 00:45:09,421
Is there anything you'd like to share to get them inspired to jump on that call with you
that would kind of demonstrate them as a good fit for the kind of person you'd be able to

694
00:45:09,421 --> 00:45:10,132
help right away?

695
00:45:10,132 --> 00:45:12,744
Or is it truly anybody at any level?

696
00:45:12,977 --> 00:45:16,399
Anybody in digital marketing really at any level.

697
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:21,284
mean, it's kind of, yeah.

698
00:45:21,284 --> 00:45:30,291
And you know, somebody's son or daughter who just wants to get into digital and knows me,
right?

699
00:45:31,373 --> 00:45:35,646
They can give their kid the link and they can ring me up and I'll say, Hey, what are you
doing?

700
00:45:35,646 --> 00:45:36,917
What are you thinking of doing?

701
00:45:36,917 --> 00:45:38,919
What is about that?

702
00:45:38,919 --> 00:45:40,460
What are your skills?

703
00:45:40,660 --> 00:45:42,011
So it could be that.

704
00:45:42,823 --> 00:45:46,425
could be lots and lots and lots of startups built the products.

705
00:45:46,425 --> 00:45:46,835
It's here.

706
00:45:46,835 --> 00:45:47,995
We're ready to go to market.

707
00:45:47,995 --> 00:45:49,926
Haven't raised any funds, blah, blah, blah.

708
00:45:49,926 --> 00:45:50,576
What am going to do?

709
00:45:50,576 --> 00:45:51,797
This is my audience.

710
00:45:51,797 --> 00:45:52,687
What am I doing wrong?

711
00:45:52,687 --> 00:45:53,438
What could I do better?

712
00:45:53,438 --> 00:45:54,578
What do you think of the product?

713
00:45:54,578 --> 00:45:57,239
A lot of people just want to hear what I think about the product.

714
00:45:57,239 --> 00:46:07,063
So it's what I said to you before is, is I can probably, I guess I'm very good at
communicating.

715
00:46:07,083 --> 00:46:08,704
You may have gathered that.

716
00:46:08,707 --> 00:46:10,012
sure, sure.

717
00:46:11,685 --> 00:46:15,267
Another thing I just have, I'm, riddled with weirdness.

718
00:46:15,267 --> 00:46:17,348
have a funny thing called a fantasia.

719
00:46:17,348 --> 00:46:21,521
think again, not diagnosed, but I spoke to someone I'm like, my God, now I know what
happened.

720
00:46:21,521 --> 00:46:26,073
It's a P H A N T A S I A right?

721
00:46:26,073 --> 00:46:27,453
A fantasia.

722
00:46:27,754 --> 00:46:30,315
I can't visualize anything in my mind.

723
00:46:30,916 --> 00:46:31,516
Right?

724
00:46:31,516 --> 00:46:35,318
If I walk out of a room, well, I have to verbalize.

725
00:46:35,318 --> 00:46:38,200
I, I, I, I, I see conceptually.

726
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:40,455
So the best way of example, like my brother.

727
00:46:40,455 --> 00:46:45,629
I can't, the only visualization my brother I have is a recent photograph that I've
memorized, right?

728
00:46:45,629 --> 00:46:47,000
I can't see his face.

729
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:48,431
I don't see his expressions.

730
00:46:48,431 --> 00:46:51,703
don't, there's no picture in that comes into my mind.

731
00:46:51,703 --> 00:47:02,171
What comes is the word his name, but with a concept wrapped around it that makes me know
that it's not any other Chris, it's my brother, Chris.

732
00:47:02,171 --> 00:47:03,722
Does that make sense?

733
00:47:04,863 --> 00:47:08,105
And so because of that, I'm really good at painting pictures in people's minds.

734
00:47:08,642 --> 00:47:11,329
because you have to do that to communicate.

735
00:47:11,329 --> 00:47:13,112
That makes total sense, Right.

736
00:47:13,456 --> 00:47:14,716
the time, right?

737
00:47:14,716 --> 00:47:21,550
So, so, so that, that, so in essence, and I, you know, I've, practiced it, I enjoy doing
it.

738
00:47:21,550 --> 00:47:24,712
So that, that, that's what helps me help people, right?

739
00:47:24,712 --> 00:47:26,533
I, it's really about.

740
00:47:27,774 --> 00:47:36,389
Just so that they feel what I'm saying and they feel motivated to do it themselves because
I'm not holding their hand.

741
00:47:36,389 --> 00:47:37,169
I'm not a tutor.

742
00:47:37,169 --> 00:47:40,751
I'm not like, it's not my job.

743
00:47:41,118 --> 00:47:45,330
Though I describe it as I'm additive, not fractional.

744
00:47:45,330 --> 00:47:47,375
I'm not there to do any part of your work.

745
00:47:47,375 --> 00:47:48,276
No.

746
00:47:48,278 --> 00:47:49,555
Not one piece of it.

747
00:47:49,555 --> 00:48:01,379
sounds like, especially for startups, like having, if I was running a startup, I was just
creating one, having somebody that could give me advisory level support, specifically in

748
00:48:01,379 --> 00:48:08,817
marketing, that's a high level expert, something I would not be able to, very rarely am I
gonna afford that in a startup space.

749
00:48:08,817 --> 00:48:09,777
exactly.

750
00:48:09,777 --> 00:48:18,857
as, as I think where I was going when I was telling you about a fantasy and describing is
the ability to communicate 50 years of knowledge or six months of knowledge or learning

751
00:48:18,857 --> 00:48:20,897
into like five minutes.

752
00:48:20,897 --> 00:48:23,198
I'm good at that.

753
00:48:23,198 --> 00:48:24,558
and that's what businesses need.

754
00:48:24,558 --> 00:48:29,125
They don't have 50 years to try to catch up to you, so they're not gonna do it.

755
00:48:29,125 --> 00:48:29,986
right.

756
00:48:29,986 --> 00:48:33,440
And if they want more than that, which they can have, that's when it becomes paid for.

757
00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:35,622
Does that make sense?

758
00:48:35,622 --> 00:48:40,157
as I say, it genuinely is free and it's genuinely good advice.

759
00:48:40,866 --> 00:48:46,772
Well, I mean, I'm thinking about this from the perspective of having done startups myself,
specifically in tech space.

760
00:48:46,772 --> 00:48:50,836
Like, do you see yourself also as like an equity advisor?

761
00:48:50,836 --> 00:48:52,528
Like, yep, I can give you advice.

762
00:48:52,528 --> 00:48:56,721
Maybe you don't, but like startups, you know, maybe somebody's...

763
00:48:56,721 --> 00:49:02,213
yes, I have discussion, I'm in discussions about that sort of stuff.

764
00:49:02,213 --> 00:49:03,982
It's always on the table.

765
00:49:04,684 --> 00:49:07,844
It's not always, I'll give you an example.

766
00:49:07,844 --> 00:49:11,855
Anyone who's raised any funds, that becomes really difficult because now you have to get
the VCs to approve and everything else.

767
00:49:11,855 --> 00:49:15,947
So has to be probably even pre -Angel, right?

768
00:49:15,947 --> 00:49:20,308
Or as near, maybe very early Angel, you can get in with something like that.

769
00:49:21,908 --> 00:49:24,629
So very, very happy to look at that.

770
00:49:25,816 --> 00:49:26,338
Sure.

771
00:49:26,338 --> 00:49:37,434
the gap comes and sometimes it's the only way to bridge the gap between you need my help
now but you can't afford to pay anything for a while, then it's absolutely on the cards

772
00:49:37,434 --> 00:49:38,735
for discussion.

773
00:49:38,766 --> 00:49:45,510
Something that I'm sure that they could discover in the 45 minutes of Ask Andella Anything
is like, what's the good fit for us as a long -term commitment?

774
00:49:45,929 --> 00:49:50,809
45 minutes is enough time to decide whether you ever want to see me again or not.

775
00:49:53,209 --> 00:49:57,057
And if so, how much you're prepared to pay for it.

776
00:49:57,057 --> 00:49:57,517
That's right.

777
00:49:57,517 --> 00:49:58,408
Can you do this again?

778
00:49:58,408 --> 00:49:58,838
All right.

779
00:49:58,838 --> 00:50:00,219
Well, it'll cost you.

780
00:50:00,900 --> 00:50:04,924
Well, I think that I really appreciate your time, by the way.

781
00:50:04,924 --> 00:50:08,847
And I think it makes sense how you fit and support.

782
00:50:09,668 --> 00:50:10,178
I know.

783
00:50:10,178 --> 00:50:12,490
Yeah, we've really covered an hour and I

784
00:50:12,970 --> 00:50:19,324
We're gonna go through this, we're gonna distill down, but I did wanna say thank you for
the time that you did spend with me.

785
00:50:19,324 --> 00:50:22,956
I feel like it may be even taking longer than I had on your calendar.

786
00:50:22,956 --> 00:50:24,277
So just appreciate the time.

787
00:50:24,277 --> 00:50:27,678
I know that you're gonna be out there giving other people advice.

788
00:50:28,219 --> 00:50:33,822
Can you share with me what the link would be that you want them to go to to learn more
about ASTL or anything?

789
00:50:34,778 --> 00:50:38,180
Yes, do you me to send it to you or put share it in the chat?

790
00:50:38,180 --> 00:50:38,941
What do you want me to do?

791
00:50:38,941 --> 00:50:40,561
Hold on, give me one second.

792
00:50:40,622 --> 00:50:44,301
The other thing that I was going to say is if we have like, have you stopped recording?

793
00:50:44,301 --> 00:50:45,065
I'm