00;00;00;00 - 00;00;02;19 Speaker 1 Black women's literature saved my life. 00;00;02;20 - 00;00;22;20 Speaker 2 There's something about literature that when you can read about someone's life, whether it happened 100 years ago or in some more contemporary novel, you can sympathize or be compassionate with your character very quickly if you're a good writer. I'm with you. You know what I mean? I'm feeling everything that character is feeling. 00;00;22;20 - 00;00;42;09 Speaker 1 The empathy is, like, really important because, you know, our archives are often limited. Our archives are violent. After passage of the 19th amendment in 1920, it would take another 40 years for black women to rightfully claim any victory. White supremacy robs them of the right to vote, but they still created a vibrant, active political culture. 00;00;42;11 - 00;01;10;04 Speaker 2 My name is Doctor Kelly Carter Jackson. I am a historian, a professor at Wellesley College, muscle podcaster. I'm a wife and a mom. I read a lot of hats. The title of my new book is called We Refuse a Forceful History of Black Resistance, and it's really a much more expansive way of looking at how black people have resisted white supremacy from the Haitian Revolution and the founding of this country all the way up through the present day. 00;01;10;05 - 00;01;15;02 Speaker 3 Author of Force and Freedom Black Abolitionists and the Politics of Violence. 00;01;15;05 - 00;01;21;06 Speaker 1 These historical actors is more empathetic. I think that people can see themselves in them. 00;01;21;07 - 00;01;36;23 Speaker 2 I don't think people appreciate about Black Woman historians in particular. I don't want to be defined by whiteness or white supremacy. I want to be defined by joy and laughter and art. And, you know, the things that we can create. And there's just so much beauty in that. 00;01;36;25 - 00;01;56;00 Speaker 1 Now, there's so many beautiful, you know, books about us also opening up a world of sated learning like take place everywhere you go. We're still going to fight. But in the meantime, we're going to step up, you know, in these ways to kind of put these stories in front of our young people. 00;01;56;22 - 00;02;09;24 Speaker 2 Hello. My name is Doctor Kelly Carter Jackson. I am the chair of African studies at Wellesley College. And my book is We Refuse a Forceful History of Black Resistance. 00;02;09;27 - 00;02;10;06 Speaker 2 Okay. 00;02;10;08 - 00;02;26;18 Speaker 1 Hi, I'm doctor Jeanette Garrett Scott, and I am the associate professor of history and africana studies and the Gibbons Professor at Tulane University. And my book is Banking on Freedom, which is about black women in banking. So. 00;02;26;18 - 00;02;27;02 Speaker 2 Hey, girl. 00;02;27;03 - 00;02;27;21 Speaker 1 Hey, hey. 00;02;27;24 - 00;02;55;18 Speaker 2 I'm very excited to be in conversation with you in the beautiful city of New Orleans, one of my favorite cities in the country. To be in and to be in conversation with you is just a joy, always a joy. So we're going to have this sort of deep and heavy. Okay. My question for you is, in what ways can literature contribute to fostering empathy and understand across diverse social and political perspectives? 00;02;55;20 - 00;03;18;27 Speaker 1 How in what ways can literature. Well, first of all, I just want to say that black women's literature saved my life. Saved my life. So I came of age, during a time when, you know, in high school, we just studied the classic people, you know, Poe, and, you know, those those kind of folks. 00;03;18;27 - 00;03;40;12 Speaker 1 And I shouldn't say this, but I was. It was fortunate. What kind of unfortunate? That our AP English history AP English history teacher ended up having to, she got sick or something. And so we had, this other teacher, which everybody hated. They dreaded her. Oh, Miss Elmore. Well, Doctor Elmore now, but I loved her. 00;03;40;14 - 00;03;52;15 Speaker 1 You know, you, because she was. You think hard. But what was so wonderful is she came into the class and she said, well, I can teach whatever I want. And she said, she's going to teach us black literature. 00;03;52;16 - 00;03;52;27 Speaker 2 Oh, and. 00;03;52;29 - 00;04;13;27 Speaker 1 The first time that I ever even heard about, like, Phillis Wheatley, the first time I do all these high, all my high school years, but she introduced us to, you know, black, black literature. And after that, I just couldn't get enough. Oh, yeah. And so was this Toni Morrison, Gail Jones, I mean, the poets, all of that. 00;04;13;27 - 00;04;31;17 Speaker 1 I was I read, read, read, read, read. And, and so when I went to I just it's, I'm really just talking. So when I went to college, I was a first generation college kid. And so my parents were like, you what? I do something that makes money and you go major in business or something like that, and I did. 00;04;31;17 - 00;04;32;26 Speaker 1 I hated it. 00;04;32;28 - 00;04;36;06 Speaker 2 You did. But you go to, business, you learn about maybe. 00;04;36;08 - 00;04;58;14 Speaker 1 Writing about business, but I hated it. And, I ended up, like, doing sociology. But what really got me through, that first time when I was in college was reading black women's literature, and when I had a whole other life and then decided to come back to school to be a historian. It was just inspired really, by especially people like Toni Morrison. 00;04;58;14 - 00;05;04;17 Speaker 1 You have a favorite book. Oh, beloved. Oh yeah, I have read beloved 11 time, 11. 00;05;04;17 - 00;05;05;00 Speaker 2 Times. 00;05;05;01 - 00;05;06;09 Speaker 1 11 times. 00;05;06;12 - 00;05;11;00 Speaker 2 I thought you want to talk about through empathy, that book. That book is. 00;05;11;00 - 00;05;14;04 Speaker 1 Heavy. Yes. Heavens, yeah. 00;05;14;06 - 00;05;30;04 Speaker 2 And at times I can't read that. I started reading that book. I've read it many times before, but I started rereading it in 2020. It was like after she passed, we couldn't get past the first chapter because I just had my daughter and I was like, I can't do this wrong as well. 00;05;30;06 - 00;05;52;26 Speaker 1 And, the reason that well, one, because I love the book and it's so beautiful, but what's what could you said about your daughter? I have read it at different times in my life. The first time I read it, I was a young woman, you know, fresh into the high school, facing my future, you know, in, you know, as a, as a young black woman and of possibility. 00;05;52;26 - 00;06;15;06 Speaker 1 And then I read it again once I was married, read it again after I had children, read it again after I had grandchildren, 12 grandchildren. And I mean, each time I just got such a different perspective. You know, sometimes I was with Sethi, sometimes I was Denver, sometimes Baby Suggs. Yeah, you know, the different people de beloved herself. 00;06;15;06 - 00;06;37;11 Speaker 1 Yeah. So, so, so a book like that is just one of my favorite books. Yeah. And black women's literature saved my life. Turn me away from the devils of business. Finance and accounting as a major. Yeah. And even just from sociology to being a historian. And this year, the last thing I'll say is, I finally get my dream. 00;06;37;11 - 00;06;49;05 Speaker 1 I'm teaching a class. One of the things I love about Tulane is they were like, you can teach whatever you want. I'm, Teaching class. Toni Morrison is a historian. Yeah. So we're looking at, for her novels. 00;06;49;05 - 00;06;54;03 Speaker 2 Yeah. Can we do it on zoom? Can I do? I probably should. 00;06;54;05 - 00;07;02;14 Speaker 1 Because I didn't want to go to class. Yeah, I just want to share for people who haven't read her. I mean, she was just a consummate his. She was awesome. And his. 00;07;02;20 - 00;07;07;29 Speaker 2 Story. You you can't write the kind of work she writes and not know history is that can. 00;07;08;01 - 00;07;09;23 Speaker 1 Yeah, exactly. Wow. 00;07;09;23 - 00;07;13;27 Speaker 2 That's going to be a good book. What what's the some of it's like what books are you reading? 00;07;14;00 - 00;07;19;17 Speaker 1 We are reading beloved of Horse or Song of Solomon? 00;07;19;20 - 00;07;24;10 Speaker 2 Jazz convergence. I haven't I've never a jazz. 00;07;24;13 - 00;07;30;06 Speaker 1 Jazz and Paradise. Paradise is one of my is like a little hidden gem. 00;07;30;08 - 00;07;34;21 Speaker 2 And jazz in New Orleans. You got a jazz? That's going to be good. 00;07;34;27 - 00;07;35;23 Speaker 1 I'm so excited. 00;07;35;24 - 00;07;57;23 Speaker 2 That's going to be really good. I love, I love, I think you're absolutely right. I think there's something about literature that when you can read about someone's life, whether it happened 100 years ago or it's a more contemporary novel, you can sympathize or be compassionate with your character very quickly. If you're if you're a good writer, I'm with you. 00;07;57;23 - 00;08;24;22 Speaker 2 You know what I mean? I'm feeling everything that character is feeling. And for Morrison in particular, it's like, oh my gosh, the bluest Eye. You feel that pain, the grief, the rejection. You feel it, you know? And you can't. It's almost like it's impossible to read and not have empathy. Yeah. Or not have. And this is an emotional response to the to a character, to a story. 00;08;24;27 - 00;08;46;25 Speaker 1 And I think for us, especially as black women, history, brewing historians, the empathy is like really important because, you know, our archives are often limited, our archives are violent and books are violent. We read, yes, horrible things that happen to the people that we study. And there's so much about them that we can't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00;08;46;27 - 00;09;24;10 Speaker 1 So it's really important for us to be able to just kind of sit and think and imagine what it must have been like to live their lives and how we can kind of shepherd their stories in ways that they don't continue to do violence to them. And that really happened to, you know, the joy in the, you know, beauty in their lives, even in the midst of war, still, you know, paying, being respectful and and understanding and articulating the the terrible circumstances that they sometimes faced with, but to really empathize with them, distress to not reduce them. 00;09;24;10 - 00;09;25;01 Speaker 1 Yeah. 00;09;25;04 - 00;09;47;06 Speaker 2 Now, I think if there's one thing that I don't think people appreciate about black women historians in particular, is that when we read a text or when we go into the archive, we're looking at all of this scholarship and all of these stories that we bring our whole selves into that space. So it's not just, a girl or, oh, you know, violence. 00;09;47;06 - 00;10;04;06 Speaker 2 It's like, oh, this is this is my cousin, this is my sister, this is my my story or part of my story, which I don't think has been appreciated because we're like, oh, you need to be objective or oh, you know, you have to have this sort of sanitized perspective of going in and that never sat well with me. 00;10;04;06 - 00;10;30;29 Speaker 2 I never agreed that you could just be completely, you know, objective and going into like any sort of story or historical moment, you had to sort of put yourself in the position of what might they be thinking, because it gets you to ask better questions. You know, like, I think we miss so much when we just look at something face value and not try to dissect what are the larger ideas that are happening in that moment. 00;10;31;02 - 00;10;32;03 Speaker 2 But I don't know. Do you agree? 00;10;32;08 - 00;10;33;08 Speaker 1 I agree yeah. 00;10;33;11 - 00;10;38;29 Speaker 2 Yeah, definitely. Yeah I definitely agree. And fosters empathy is interesting. 00;10;38;29 - 00;10;58;28 Speaker 1 All right. So I have a question for you. And this question is right up your alley. Yeah. Can you share a personal story or example that illustrates the resilience cultivated and passed down through generations within your own family? 00;10;59;02 - 00;11;01;12 Speaker 2 Is it not the perfect question? 00;11;01;14 - 00;11;04;10 Speaker 1 Oh, no. I'm I'm telling you, the ancestors. 00;11;04;10 - 00;11;32;07 Speaker 2 Guided my hand to pick the card. That is the perfect question. That is. I mean, we just got to talk about we refuse because that is how we are. Open up. Yeah, my book will refuse the very first story, and the introduction is the story my mother shared with me about my great grandmother. And so when my mother and our nestum, when our Nesta was nine years old, living in rural Alabama in 1915, she stepped on a rusty nail. 00;11;32;09 - 00;11;59;05 Speaker 2 And after she does, it gets infected really, really badly. And she is deathly sick to the point where she might die. We're not sure if it's tetanus, but it was a horrible infection. And, my great great grandmother took her to this doctor. This only, doctor she knew who lived in a big white house on the other side of town and basically begs, hey, can you help me? 00;11;59;05 - 00;12;21;10 Speaker 2 This is my niece, right? Oh, man. So white man, this is my child. This is my only child. And he agrees to help her on the condition that once he heals her, the Aunt Nesta would have to come and live with him and work for his family for the rest of her life. And that is just a now, 50 years after slavery. 00;12;21;13 - 00;12;47;12 Speaker 2 She's nine years old, so the fact that she should even be working is like, not even something that we should be thinking about. And because, Mary's only child was our next, she was desperate, and so she agreed. But thankfully, my great great great grandmother, whose name I just found out was Martha. It's going in the paperback came out like, came up, put her name in the paper, man, because it's so important. 00;12;47;14 - 00;13;11;26 Speaker 2 Martha says. Oh, no, oh, no, no, no. Martha was born into slavery, and Martha refuses. And she says, you would rather have her die than subjugate her to what will likely be physical and sexual abuse and exploitation and so she takes our Nesta home, and she administers every natural remedies you can think of. And she saved her life. 00;13;11;28 - 00;13;43;06 Speaker 2 And for the rest of her life. Nesta walks with the limp. But the limp was not the totality of her life. She took everything that her grandmother implanted in her. That refusal, that resilience, that survival, that, love of life and joy, and passed it down almost genetically to every single descendant in our family. And it's so funny to me to hear my mom say that I'm a lot like my great grandmother, that like, I never knew a stranger. 00;13;43;06 - 00;14;10;19 Speaker 2 I loved doing good parties and gatherings. You know, I love to laugh, I love joy, and that that story, to me, I feel like resilience and refusal is so much a part of my bloodline that when I do the work, even as a historian, even in telling these stories, that is a part of my way of acknowledging what they have, you know, what they've put in me, what they have, taught me and raised me to believe that. 00;14;10;19 - 00;14;33;20 Speaker 2 Like, no, you don't you don't accept terms that are unfair, that are unjust, that are evil, that you can push back, that you can refuse, that you can say no, you can say never lie. And I feel like I have a lot of that, fight in me. I've seen that I never got to meet my great grandmother, but I've seen that in my grandmother. 00;14;33;23 - 00;14;51;03 Speaker 2 I certainly seen that in my mom. Like my mom, I'm one of seven kids, and I tell this story all the time with such, such a funny story to be. But we're just we're in the grocery store. And, you know, at the time, I think my mom probably had 5 or 6 kids with her in the grocery store and just wanted to get, like, milk, you know, like something basic. 00;14;51;05 - 00;15;08;11 Speaker 2 She goes into the grocery store and this woman is standing in front of her and has all these groceries. And I was like, I just got milk. I got all these kids. I'm trying to get out of here. And the woman in front of her, forget something. And she leaves the line to go and get it. So my mom was like, okay, well, she's gone. 00;15;08;11 - 00;15;32;21 Speaker 2 Let me just go. And that's one thing. One thing. So she checks out and the woman, white woman, comes back and says, you cut me in line. And my mom said, yeah, but I just have milk. You have all the stuff. And you left. And she said, well, well, next time maybe I won't let you do that. And my mom said, next time I'll say, oh no, no, no, I want to know what you're going to do right now. 00;15;32;27 - 00;16;02;26 Speaker 2 I should go and do that right now. And I was like, I was like, fine, you know what? I'm like, oh my God, it's going down in the grocery store. But again, that refusal, like, you will not talk crazy to me. You will not, you know, try to diminish me or try to, make me wait behind you unnecessarily, like in just that kind of response, that visceral response that my mom had probably after a long work day of here's what you're not going to do. 00;16;03;22 - 00;16;08;12 Speaker 2 I have carried that with me. I carry that with me. There's so many. 00;16;08;12 - 00;16;09;08 Speaker 1 Things. Yeah. 00;16;09;08 - 00;16;19;21 Speaker 2 And I have a woman like that, a refusal, resilience, all that kind of stuff. Oh that you feel like has been passed down or something that you have either internalized. 00;16;19;23 - 00;16;42;16 Speaker 1 Well, you know, since you start talking about your book, I'll talk about my book, because it also took me, it was difficult for me to decide to, to make the decision to talk about myself, you know, in my book, which is kind of silly. But I talk about in my book, I used to so I had gone to college and, you know, then met my husband, you know, had a whole family and a whole life and a whole career. 00;16;42;18 - 00;16;50;24 Speaker 1 And I mean that I was working hard. I was working in the mortgage business. And I mean, really, I was literally working 70 hour. 00;16;50;25 - 00;16;52;16 Speaker 2 Oh my gosh. 00;16;52;16 - 00;17;20;03 Speaker 1 Bringing my kids on the weekends with packed lunches, books where they would sit while we would work, you know, on Saturday, Sunday. Oh, you know, rushing back is, you know, barely making it to daycare. You know, I a lot, and so, you know, when I was working really, really hard and, and I had been with this company for, I mean, really from the time that they were just a whole bunch of, you know, seats and chairs in this, you know, dusty office building. 00;17;20;03 - 00;17;41;01 Speaker 1 And now they were on this gleaming, you know, two floors, top floors of this office building. Well, anyway, so one day, the guy who was my quote unquote boss, you know, he just came in and he looked at me straight in the eye, and he was like, sure that you are going to make me a millionaire. And I thought to myself, what the hell? 00;17;41;01 - 00;17;51;11 Speaker 1 I know, I know, I'm, I didn't say it like, I believe, but in my mind I just something just cracked. And I was like, why would he say. 00;17;51;11 - 00;17;52;24 Speaker 2 That to you? The hell. 00;17;52;24 - 00;18;23;29 Speaker 1 I am. Wow, wow. And then right then I yeah, I was already, you know, didn't like being in the real world. I always, I really wanted to be a teacher. And that is just that moment where all I could imagine was another five, ten years of working day in and day out for somebody like him to, you know, live in a McMansion and buy motorcycles. 00;18;23;29 - 00;18;25;11 Speaker 2 And with my million dollars. 00;18;25;12 - 00;18;31;02 Speaker 1 Right? Yeah. And it's white thing in that very moment, I was like. 00;18;31;04 - 00;18;31;24 Speaker 2 Yeah, I'm not, you know. 00;18;31;24 - 00;18;32;14 Speaker 1 I will not. 00;18;32;14 - 00;18;46;22 Speaker 2 Make anything I don't know. Hurston. We, women are the mules of the world or the meals of the Earth. And I'm like, yeah, not be a mule. I will not be a mule. Yeah, like making you money, making your billion dollars. Right. Goodness. 00;18;46;22 - 00;18;58;18 Speaker 1 And that's no joke. No. And I do have to say that when you talked about, you know, kind of it's like in your DNA you learned from your mom, and it's. But I also think that's probably for your children too. 00;18;58;19 - 00;18;59;03 Speaker 2 Oh, yeah. 00;18;59;03 - 00;19;15;26 Speaker 1 So, a minority in particular, you wrote a I think you wrote an op ed about it, but I saw you talking about it. So we know, like video or, or something. We talked about how you were telling your son William about. He's trying to explain to him the the the Kamala. 00;19;15;26 - 00;19;46;15 Speaker 2 Oh, yeah. Hair like, oh my gosh, that was rough. That was rough. I this, this election or 2024 was the first time my kids paid attention to politics and what was really going on. You know, like when you're a kid, you don't, you know, who's president, but you don't really think about these things. I remember when I first thought about, like, the presidency and like, who's running the country might have been like, I don't know, with like, George Walker Bush or something like that. 00;19;46;15 - 00;20;12;19 Speaker 2 Yeah. But, but for my kids, they don't really remember Obama so much because they were young. But I think so, seeing that Kamala Harris could be the first black woman president. I mean, I talked to them about this all the time. Not only was I talking to them about how important it was and how big it would be if she were president, but I was also telling them, like, how horrible Trump is problematic he is, you know, at least that they can understand. 00;20;12;20 - 00;20;40;01 Speaker 2 Of course. So they were very invested and and they I have raised children to be very empathetic. They hate in justice even of the smallest kind. And some of that's me, some of that's their own, like, personality. But when, my son wanted to stay up and watch the election results and I said, you know, no, it's going to be late, it's going to be a long night, you know? 00;20;40;01 - 00;20;57;15 Speaker 2 And then when I saw it actually wasn't going to be a long night, and I was devastated and I was trying to figure out how am I going to break the news to him because he came in my room early in the morning. He's early riser. I got up at 5 a.m. oh and said, did she? When did you win? 00;20;57;15 - 00;21;27;04 Speaker 2 And I said, oh no, honey, she lost. And he burst into tears and it just. And then I started crying. It just was a hard moment because I felt like, you know, you try to shelter your kids from the hard knocks of life as much as you can. But it was a moment in which I think he realized that, like, oh, the world is is not fair and that we don't always put the right people in office. 00;21;27;05 - 00;21;50;08 Speaker 2 People who will do right by everyone. And like it just was a really tough lesson. And then my daughter asked me, how come Donald Trump doesn't like women? And then she said, how come people don't like women? And I was like, This is Jojo, Josephine, Josephine. And she said, my teacher was crying at school today. And so we went for a walk in the woods. 00;21;50;10 - 00;22;06;15 Speaker 2 And we said, you know, we got some big feelings. Let's talk about our big feelings. And it was a very I was trying not to cry in the moment, but I'm telling them to express their feelings. I'm trying get but I just, I want I didn't want them to, to be reacting to me or be trying to like, you know, care for me. 00;22;06;15 - 00;22;28;11 Speaker 2 I really wanted to like, let them sort of voice their thoughts and their feelings and and it was really good. But it's, it's it was good because we got to talk about it and I got to hear their sort of process, how they, how they process this information. But it was also an important lesson because it's like, okay, so now we need to talk about what what is it looks like. 00;22;28;18 - 00;22;51;24 Speaker 2 Now let's talk about what advocacy. What do we do now and what we do now and how we we keep working for justice. We don't stop. We don't sort of resign ourselves, that we're always going to be trying to make the world a better place. We're always going to try to make sure that there's inclusivity that people are are getting their needs met, like in small ways and in big ways, you know, and I think they get that. 00;22;51;26 - 00;23;09;06 Speaker 2 But it's a lesson we're going to have to keep, you know, teaching again and again. But I don't know, how did you talk to your children about these things? Because I know your children are adults. You're still I call them my whatever. I got a dad. You know? Should we leave? Like. 00;23;09;09 - 00;23;34;10 Speaker 1 Oh, what's the what's so great about my children? Oh, my children are so creative. So my daughter, who's in the middle is already in. It was an activist already, but she is definitely a scholar activist. So she was all ready. Yeah. Yeah, just already ready to fight. Yeah. And, and so she started thinking about, you know, our plan of action. 00;23;34;11 - 00;23;54;20 Speaker 1 But I do have to say that one thing she definitely has learned is she really shared is of just about self-care. Like, she really saw it as a moment to double down on doing the kinds of things that bring her joy. Yeah, really connecting with her friends. Yeah. And, and and just not refu not refusing. 00;23;54;20 - 00;23;55;16 Speaker 2 Yeah. 00;23;55;18 - 00;24;15;18 Speaker 1 To not giving up on her. Yeah. Of what? She thought the world could be my youngest, son, he, is a little bit more introverted. And he was. And I was really surprised, you know, that, actually, that he had found it so closely and knew so much and it he often would, you know, kind of keep me in the loop of things. 00;24;15;18 - 00;24;46;15 Speaker 1 I might, I might have missed. And, he just, it's also to double down on, you know, I'm just going to be a good person. I mean, yeah, the good person. And then my oldest son, you know, expresses himself in music and art. And so, you know, he paints, he, you know, rap songs and music. And so even so, I would say that even though they were expressing frustration and fear of, you know, of the what's to come. 00;24;46;15 - 00;25;07;20 Speaker 1 Yeah. They had a lot of discipline things like. Yeah, they channeled it in ways that were they were building, you know, themselves up. And I would say you asked about, channeling. Well, especially when we think about we refuse, we think about because there's so many like, personal stories that you put in there, and also just the kinds of things that we study. 00;25;07;27 - 00;25;10;20 Speaker 1 Why do you when you think about your spiritual DNA? 00;25;11;19 - 00;25;19;05 Speaker 1 You kind of really go on the opposite way, like that story about your great grandmother like that aunt. 00;25;19;08 - 00;25;19;17 Speaker 2 And. 00;25;19;17 - 00;25;43;07 Speaker 1 Mother are Nesta. What were, say, Madea? Yeah. Well, over there, could have made you really angry. You know, it could have made you say how to to look at your. Yeah. One of the things I think I remember you saying was that, you know, even though she had a limp, in essence, she would kind of say she didn't limp through life. 00;25;43;08 - 00;26;01;11 Speaker 1 She still lived, like, really. She had no, like, life. But you would have only seen a limp and thought to yourself, well, it could have been a constant reminder of what happened to her and the injustice. Yeah. And it could have made you feel and think quite the opposite way. Yeah. I think. 00;26;01;13 - 00;26;20;06 Speaker 2 You know, I this is also something that like, you know, we never finish writing books. I feel like we never editors literally have to snatch it from us. I'm like, wait one more, like one more line. And when they said to me, okay, the paperback is going to come out. Are there any changes you want to make, any typos you found or whatever? 00;26;20;09 - 00;26;43;03 Speaker 2 And I was like, wait, I have to add another paragraph and then like another paragraph at the at the very end of the book, which is that after the book came out, it sparked a lot more conversations between me and my mom about Grandma Nesta, where, she told me about like how she got married five times. She loved she loved the base, you know? 00;26;43;04 - 00;26;59;22 Speaker 2 Oh my gosh, now she was vellum was not holding that well. I made five times, you know, I only had one child. My grandfather, she, threw elaborate parties where people would come from all over. 00;26;59;24 - 00;27;00;26 Speaker 1 She would cook. 00;27;00;29 - 00;27;23;18 Speaker 2 Oh, fantastic. There. Oh, fantastic cook. I mean, spiritual woman. Absolutely love the Lord. LED my mother to Christ, you know, was there when she got baptized. Like she was such a full, vibrant personality. Then you know how when you see someone you love, you don't really pay attention to, like of maybe a certain disability or like the limp, they limp? 00;27;23;18 - 00;27;45;20 Speaker 2 Oh, I didn't even realize they that. Because. Yeah, because you see their spirit. Because you see their personality. And, I wanted to end the book with that so that you're not just thinking about you're thinking about refusal. And I think that's important. But you're also not stuck on the limp like she was not. She survived, you know, she didn't die. 00;27;45;26 - 00;28;07;22 Speaker 2 She didn't go to that white man's house. She, lived her life every day as fully free as she possibly could. She had a massive garden, you know, that she would plant flowers and vegetables and just, I so wish that I had gotten a chance to know her, but I think that it's so important that we don't just focus on. 00;28;07;24 - 00;28;29;21 Speaker 2 I mean, one of the reasons the last chapter in the book is joy is because I'm like, Joy is a weapon. We need joy. We need ways where we can, like combat, really hard times. And I think that, you know, we sometimes trivialize joy or we make it seem like it's just, you know, like fearlessness or, happiness or, you know, like, just optimism. 00;28;29;21 - 00;28;38;13 Speaker 1 And this is, it is individual. Yeah, yeah. But the joy that you have is like like, I know hedonism. Like it's just for you. Yeah, but it's not just for not. 00;28;38;15 - 00;29;01;06 Speaker 2 It's not at all. It is a fortification. It really is for the whole community. And, to be black is to be full of joy, like you. You know how it is when you go online and you're like, you know, doom, rot or like he's trolling, you do. I can't tell you how many gifts means videos I come across where black people are just being silly. 00;29;01;08 - 00;29;03;08 Speaker 2 Oh, yeah. And hilarious. Yes. 00;29;03;08 - 00;29;09;05 Speaker 1 And joyful and licking their friends. Yeah. And kicking up their heels. Yes, yes. 00;29;09;07 - 00;29;33;27 Speaker 2 I mean, that is we are not a doom and gloom kind of people. Despite all that we have faced, all that we have, sort of like, seen generation after generation, there is a lot to complain about. There is a lot to be grieved about. And yet that's not the totality of us, you know, I don't want to be defined by whiteness or white supremacy. 00;29;33;29 - 00;29;51;01 Speaker 2 I'm going to be defined by joy and laughter and art and, you know, the things that we can create. And there's just so much beauty in that, you know? So, and have you found joy lately? What do you do to, like, I don't know, sort of take care of yourself. What makes you happy? 00;29;51;03 - 00;29;52;21 Speaker 1 Well, when I work too much. 00;29;52;23 - 00;29;55;28 Speaker 2 I know when I listen, I know we both work too much. 00;29;56;02 - 00;30;19;06 Speaker 1 I work way too much. I tell you one thing that I have found that is, like, really just given me life is listening to albums. Oh, my gosh, I well, one, I completely I have like an incredible album collection. Number one that I stumbled on is something I've always wanted. And I got this like. 00;30;19;06 - 00;30;21;15 Speaker 2 Bueno, like vintage vibe. Oh, yeah. 00;30;21;18 - 00;30;47;03 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. And, and unfortunately, I, you know, I, I've bought a house, but I'm not living in it, so it's, it's still being renovated, so all my albums are packed up, and, and and so I said to myself, I really love listening to album, so, let me not let me do that. And so I just, you know, I just bought some, you know, that I really, really, really like I bought a little cheap record player. 00;30;47;07 - 00;30;51;03 Speaker 1 I put it in my office. Love it. I just put albums on. Okay. 00;30;51;03 - 00;30;58;26 Speaker 2 And I be listening to who will listen, who's who's. The vibe I know for me is Stevie Wonder all day, every day. Oh my gosh, I. 00;30;58;26 - 00;31;13;08 Speaker 1 Have Stevie Wonder's fulfilling this. Yeah. The, songs in the Key of Life. Yeah. There's innovation. Whenever I can remember, I feel like a beautiful album. I was just listening to, you know, looking back on when I Got. 00;31;13;13 - 00;31;14;18 Speaker 2 Lost in. 00;31;14;20 - 00;31;16;23 Speaker 1 Love. Oh, yeah. So, Yeah, definitely. 00;31;16;24 - 00;31;36;24 Speaker 2 Yeah. And if you haven't listened to it, you totally. It's a podcast that was, Wesley Morris of The New York Times did on The Genius of Stevie Wonder. I think it's called The Wonder of Stevie, and it is so good. He goes through like five years of albums that he puts out, like back to back to back and ends, I think in songs. 00;31;36;24 - 00;31;59;02 Speaker 2 So the key life and it is just so rich and vibrant it is. The podcast is like a meal. It is a feast for your ears, and it just reminded me of so many songs of Stevie that I love. Yeah, or maybe I love. But then I wasn't paying attention as much to the message. And then when it got down and said, oh, I love this even more than I thought I could a good album. 00;31;59;05 - 00;32;14;27 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, I that's what you just said to a good podcast. Like sometimes just having like, I love listening to him and thought I really knew him. But then to actually learn a little bit more about him. Oh. Which reminds me, because you do podcast, I do. 00;32;15;00 - 00;32;18;18 Speaker 2 I do balance. I am a sucker for a good podcast. 00;32;18;20 - 00;32;20;20 Speaker 1 When you do a Oprah. 00;32;20;22 - 00;32;21;27 Speaker 2 Oh yeah. 00;32;21;28 - 00;32;22;09 Speaker 1 You know. 00;32;22;09 - 00;32;25;04 Speaker 2 I love oh I do, I do, I do. 00;32;25;08 - 00;32;25;24 Speaker 1 I. 00;32;25;27 - 00;32;48;08 Speaker 2 Could talk about Oprah. Oh, I don't know about you, but like, 4 p.m. weekdays at 4 p.m.. Yeah. Live all up and through grad school. Really? Because that's when she went off the air. When I was in school, that was all I did. And if you lived in New York, it was weird. She came in at 4 p.m. and then if you stayed up late, she came on again at 1 a.m.. 00;32;48;10 - 00;33;12;27 Speaker 2 So sometimes if I was working, I would watch her again at night. Yeah, I absolutely I love podcasting, I love engaging with people and thinking about ideas, but like, there's something about the nostalgia of talking about these moments that felt so iconic for me that I think about when I think about the open air show, she was doing things that nobody else was really doing and and making. 00;33;12;27 - 00;33;16;11 Speaker 2 She was making things viral before they were viral. You know, he. 00;33;16;11 - 00;33;17;16 Speaker 1 Invented Twitter. 00;33;17;18 - 00;33;18;23 Speaker 2 As he. 00;33;18;26 - 00;33;23;05 Speaker 1 Because she set the stage for people to talk about. I say Twitter, but. 00;33;23;05 - 00;33;24;12 Speaker 2 That, yeah, she was. 00;33;24;12 - 00;33;30;24 Speaker 1 Influenced to talk about her book, about their feelings, to open up in ways that people didn't do before. 00;33;30;24 - 00;33;31;05 Speaker 2 No. 00;33;31;05 - 00;33;39;15 Speaker 1 And so once you had social media. Yeah. I mean, people were talking about, you know, their family is the big trend. 00;33;39;17 - 00;33;44;23 Speaker 2 The latest celebrity interview. Yeah. I mean, like, I may I come up and make it Griezmann. 00;33;44;23 - 00;33;57;16 Speaker 1 We'll see. Yeah he's the wheel. Yes. Of of this you know new kind of ways that people felt more connected. You know to each other in this kind of virtual, you know, space because 00;33;57;18 - 00;34;06;10 Speaker 2 With my girlfriend. Yeah. Talk about what this looks like. What was. Oh, yeah. Did you see. Yeah, yeah. Do you know, I mean, it was it was. 00;34;06;10 - 00;34;06;29 Speaker 1 So. 00;34;07;03 - 00;34;26;00 Speaker 2 Cultural and so, much a part of just how I thought about the world and my sister, I didn't even realize I did this. And my sister was like, you know, Kelly, you used to start every sentence like, well, Oprah said, but did you know that Oprah said I was like, no, I didn't. She was like, yes, yes you did. 00;34;26;00 - 00;34;38;18 Speaker 2 I was like, oh, I didn't, I didn't say I do that, but I mean that that's the kind of impact that she had on the community. I mean, the, the authors that Oprah brought on because she featured Toni Morrison. Oh, yes. 00;34;38;18 - 00;34;39;22 Speaker 1 It yes. 00;34;39;24 - 00;35;01;19 Speaker 2 I feel like because I can't pinpoint when my introduction to Toni Morrison was, but I believe it was through Oprah because she picked multiple of her books to be on the on the book club. And she just had such a reverence for her. And I loved the conversations that they had together and just any other author that she would bring on, or any sort of topic that just seemed like crazy. 00;35;01;19 - 00;35;20;07 Speaker 2 And I was even a parent or even a wife at the time. And I'm still thinking about marriage and parenting and childhood in ways that I would not have thought about, you know, if she wasn't curating those conversations. So yeah, the podcast was really fun to do. We did two seasons of it and we just talked about, all the high moments. 00;35;20;11 - 00;35;39;04 Speaker 2 One of the my favorite episodes is the birthday episode because it was when she turned 50 years old, she had this huge birthday party. Stevie Wonder sings at her birthday party. And I was like, you know, we were not celebrating 50 like this before. It was like, oh, you know, you're over the hill, you're headed towards the grave. 00;35;39;08 - 00;35;59;17 Speaker 2 I always made like, you know, turning another year or sort of like a doom and gloom kind of thing. And her explosive birthday party was like, no, we can celebrate aging and we can be extravagant and we can center ourselves, and we don't have to be like, oh, it's my birthday. But, you know, like, it was. It was leftover. 00;35;59;17 - 00;36;03;03 Speaker 2 Yeah. Don't. Yeah. Like, yeah, it was late. Oh sorry. 00;36;03;07 - 00;36;13;26 Speaker 1 My Grace. Like. Yeah. Oh I think what is she always doing something new I think. Didn't want one birthday. She got her ears pierced. Yeah. She learned to swim. So she always. Mom, you know. 00;36;13;26 - 00;36;19;11 Speaker 2 Well, did you hear the Oprah episode I need to know. Or favorite Oprah moment? Oh, there's so many. 00;36;19;16 - 00;36;20;23 Speaker 1 Yeah, there's so many. 00;36;20;23 - 00;36;21;28 Speaker 2 Or favorite Oprah interviews. 00;36;21;28 - 00;36;31;25 Speaker 1 I have to tell you, I, I really remember the one where she had the wagon full of red. Oh, because she was so happy to fit in those jeans. 00;36;31;26 - 00;36;36;05 Speaker 2 Yeah, but she starred herself where she's the. She didn't eat for a month straight. 00;36;36;06 - 00;36;49;02 Speaker 1 And then of course, afterward. And I also think one of my kids, one of my favorite ones that really sticks with me is because the afterwards she was so honest. Yeah. About how I think she said something like that that night I couldn't finish. 00;36;49;04 - 00;36;49;16 Speaker 2 Yeah, that. 00;36;49;16 - 00;36;52;18 Speaker 1 Was like like the last day. Yeah, I was so yeah, always, you. 00;36;52;20 - 00;37;12;28 Speaker 2 Know, the true story that she had in her and every part of her life, but certainly with her weight journey I think was something that all Americans could resonate with. It was like, oh yeah, I've listen, I've eaten the whole cake or, you know, like, yeah, I've had, I've had that horrible ice cream. And so like, it was so, real. 00;37;12;28 - 00;37;35;29 Speaker 2 It's funny, we on the podcast, we, we talk about like, things that were timeless, things that age. Well, things that did not age the well, like. And I think that's one of the things that like, even Oprah would probably say that she's learned about giving herself more care about, like, how she looks and how healthy she is and how like, how much we just body shamed. 00;37;35;29 - 00;37;57;04 Speaker 2 So much that, like, those past episodes are kind of hard for me to watch. Like the I can I'm like, I don't want you to hate yourself. You know what I mean? Like you, you shouldn't be, like, not eating for a month like that kept me healthy. It was, those are one of the things that I feel like, you know, does not age as well, but was a powerful TV moment. 00;37;57;04 - 00;38;00;25 Speaker 2 I mean, that was Venus Gold. And for her. Yeah. 00;38;00;25 - 00;38;15;05 Speaker 1 And, I mean, I'm like, again, I just love that she was just really honest. Yeah. Because she could have, like, said, she could have had people believing that that was a golden high point in her life. But she was she was really honest. No. Yeah, but you do want a podcast, a current a podcast. 00;38;15;05 - 00;38;41;25 Speaker 2 Yeah. So this day, this day, we, we have episodes that drop three times a week, and we had a long title this day, an esoteric political history, a very long. And every time I'd be like, what your my guest this day in history. Like, why now? Why so we just caught up with that I think Jody. Jody who is the host, in fact, it's kind of a joke, you know, to like have that long of a title, but then it actually got kind of difficult to keep singing it over. 00;38;41;28 - 00;38;58;06 Speaker 2 So we just call it the This Day podcast. And it's when you listen to an episode, it's on this day and we tell you something that happened in history and it could be from the 1800s, it could be from, you know, the 1960s, it could be from, you know, the colonial period. We kind of go all through the gamut, very much American centric. 00;38;58;06 - 00;39;24;22 Speaker 2 We focused on American history. Sometimes we we'll talk about different countries. But, there are pivotal moments in history and it's sort of like, did you know? But we go a little deeper. We try to give you the historical context. We give you like what was going on in that moment. What are the players and the features? Some of it can be really fun and silly, which I enjoy, and some of it can be really like, yo, this is a lesson we have not learned, and we keep repeating this same historical moment again and again. 00;39;24;24 - 00;39;48;08 Speaker 2 And so, I didn't realize how much podcasting and thinking about history in all of its different facets like that would make me a better historian like and a better, I think, sort of like professor in the way that I engage my students in the way that I'm thinking about how all of these things happened. And, you know, we forget we're like, oh, yeah, I forgot that they did this or they did that. 00;39;48;08 - 00;40;01;02 Speaker 2 I had no idea. They do like but sometimes we'll do an episode. And I was like, yeah, I didn't know that there was a chicken tariff in 1962. And that that chicken tariff is the reason why American dominates in the automotive industry. 00;40;01;02 - 00;40;02;29 Speaker 1 Like what you there was like this. 00;40;02;29 - 00;40;25;26 Speaker 2 Yeah, I know, I know, it's it's but we find ways to connect it all together. And that has been really, really fun. And I just I love Jody and Nicki. They're, amazing people to podcast with, and it's just been a good time. And I feel like. I don't know if you feel like this to where history is, like, it's for me, it's becoming more than just books and journal articles. 00;40;25;26 - 00;40;53;27 Speaker 2 It's how can we make these ideas as widely accessible as possible? And so if it's podcasting, if it's op eds, if it's books, if it's journal articles, if it's speaking and, you know, working on documentaries or, you know, all the different ways in which history impacts our lives, there's so many different outlets for it. And it just feels like I have a much more expansive way to do the work that I do. 00;40;54;04 - 00;41;06;24 Speaker 2 And I really enjoy that. What about you? Have you felt the same way that you can sort of like, sort of expand the way that you teach outside of the traditional just classroom student sort of interaction? 00;41;06;27 - 00;41;24;24 Speaker 1 Yeah, definitely. I end it really doing more public facing, talking to people in the community. And, well, I know that, you know, you're about to do a book talk. Well, one of the I have to tell you, one of the fun things about book talks, and I know that, you know, this. People will ask you anything. 00;41;24;24 - 00;41;44;01 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah, like like in a classroom setting. You know, you you kind of figure you want to get kind of an academic question, but people like people, you know, you know, just who aren't in the in the confines of a classroom. They will ask you questions like, you know, how do I change the world? You know, I mean, they will ask. 00;41;44;01 - 00;41;55;03 Speaker 2 You and three things like, no, that's big. Yeah, the big question. So yeah, they want to stop racism. Yeah, exactly. 00;41;55;05 - 00;42;14;24 Speaker 1 But also people take it as an opportunity to I can think because they kind of connecting with the scholar or something, but, you know, they ask other like, really important questions like, you know, I'm doing my genealogy, you know, and, and, and how do I find, you know, something about, you know, my great great grandmother or or how do I understand this? 00;42;14;24 - 00;42;21;15 Speaker 1 So, so it's really nice to, you know, be able to talk to get to really, you know, hearing talk to, you. 00;42;21;21 - 00;42;44;15 Speaker 2 Know, that's real. You realize how much people care about history when you're outside of the classroom because the classroom feels like an obligated experience. You know what I mean? They're like, they're here, they got to get a degree, etc. I got to take this class to graduate, whatever it is. But when you're out in in spaces like, like bookstores and meeting with the public, you really get the feeling that, like, you know, people love history. 00;42;44;15 - 00;43;00;19 Speaker 1 They must love here for it. Because because people are, you know, putting their dinner on and and wrapping it up and, you know, telling their love, well, hurry up, you gotta eat or I'll put this plate aside for you because I gotta go. Yeah. The catch there. So they're feeding it in. They're busy. Yeah. And they're in their busy lives. 00;43;00;19 - 00;43;18;29 Speaker 2 Yeah. And I love that because history is more than just dates and names and places. I mean, I didn't like history that much in high school, but now it's like, oh, history is gossip history that you want to take. That is history. Like you will get all the time in history. I mean, that is that is really what it is. 00;43;18;29 - 00;43;28;11 Speaker 2 And I think people appreciate just how much it impacts their lives, just how much we live our lives in, in historical moments, you know. 00;43;28;15 - 00;43;48;18 Speaker 1 And going back to that first question, which was asking, well, that you asked me about, you know, empathy and in the fiction also, kind of what you just talked about too, is bringing our lives the kinds of things that we're interested in, wanting to know more about these women's lives bring back women's lives, and that's what we study. 00;43;48;20 - 00;44;05;22 Speaker 1 To bring out these multiple dimensions of their lives. I mean, I have to say. Yeah, because I'm not going to get to ask you out there because I have so many different things to ask you. But I do want to tell you that I, like, I mean, I didn't think I knew Daisy Bates, but, you know, I knew her name. 00;44;05;22 - 00;44;09;10 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. You know, I'm not a late 20th century person, but, you. 00;44;09;10 - 00;44;12;08 Speaker 2 Know, more than most. Yeah, because we got to teach that so. Very. 00;44;12;11 - 00;44;41;26 Speaker 1 Yeah. Oh, you. But I was riveted. I don't know I mean I was riveted by many stories in your book. Yeah I was riveted in, in about her. Why. Because I have seen pictures of her you know, and seeing how put together you know she was in her soup. But now whenever I want to see a picture of her I'm going to think about her as a little girl staring down the land that she believes. 00;44;41;26 - 00;44;42;20 Speaker 2 Killed her mother. 00;44;42;20 - 00;44;56;19 Speaker 1 Yes. And thinking about the decision that she had to make between. How does she channel, you know, vengeance. Yeah. You know, or vigilance. You know, I can't. 00;44;56;19 - 00;45;16;27 Speaker 2 Think of the word. But her father telling her you can be filled with hate. You can't hate people like this. It will eat you up inside. Just. I mean, the story of Daisy Bates is just an incredible one because it's so much bigger than the little rock now. Bigger. So much bigger. I mean, I think we, you know, we have the hallmark story of like the little Rock nine and we talk about it. 00;45;16;27 - 00;45;21;24 Speaker 2 Is this very like, oh, these students were true to that. And then, you know, and then success or progress. 00;45;21;25 - 00;45;54;03 Speaker 1 And also can I say to you, we think also that we've made some progress because now we are talking about women like Daisy being you, you know, and other women and bridge leaders in kind of in ways we're bringing them to the fore. But the stories that you tell and also when we talk about being empathetic, when we talk about trying to connect our lives, we're, we're we just talk about gossip and, like, really getting digging into their lives like we're we're talking about them more than in those moments. 00;45;54;03 - 00;45;56;23 Speaker 1 Yeah. Like really trying to see them as whole. 00;45;56;23 - 00;46;15;13 Speaker 2 People, complicated people. Oh, and one of the stories that sticks with me is the one that you mentioned about the grocery store, but also there's that iconic photo of Elizabeth Eckford, who's walking to school as the little Rock nine. And you have she's like, basically inundated by the mob, and they're throwing racial slurs at her and, you know, spitting on her. 00;46;15;13 - 00;46;38;17 Speaker 2 And just like, heckling her. And, because her mother did not own a telephone and she did not get the memo to not show up to school that day. And there's a part in the book where Elizabeth Edwards mother calls Daisy Bates and says, you know, after all this is happening in Meet International News. And she said, I need you to do me a favor. 00;46;38;17 - 00;46;58;00 Speaker 2 And she didn't say, I mean, she gave you a telephone so that, you know, next time you can call me and tell me not to go to school. No, she said, I need you to get me a gun, I need you give me bullets. And I was like, wow. Like. And the fact that she went woman to woman, like, how how can I protect me and my bike? 00;46;58;06 - 00;47;17;13 Speaker 2 I don't need a phone. How about what she really need? Yeah, I need a gun. And I was like, oh, snap. Oh, cause these are decisions. You don't hear black women talking about men. Sure not. Mothers. Not mothers talking about Anita. You know, think full of bullets and then nicknaming their guns old Betsy, you know. Oh, thank God. 00;47;17;16 - 00;47;19;22 Speaker 2 I'll bet she's with me today, you know? 00;47;19;24 - 00;47;35;08 Speaker 1 Yeah. And also, one of my favorite quote speaking about Daisy Bates, too, is the the man who's like, in her yard hurling stuff at her. And she's like, you know, I shot five times. But that said, if he had maybe acted like he was about the world. Yeah, that's six bullet. 00;47;35;13 - 00;47;41;13 Speaker 2 Oh would have been for him. Right. These are warning shot. Right. That's one more. 00;47;41;15 - 00;47;42;03 Speaker 1 Time. 00;47;42;11 - 00;48;01;28 Speaker 2 Oh, man. It's. Yeah, it's it's no joke. There's there are so many those stories. And again it's like, you know we're historians. We know this work but yet it's wonderful to be reminded and to actually get a little bit beyond the scope of the stories that we've been told over and over again to stretch beyond that and be like, no, but but what else were they doing? 00;48;01;29 - 00;48;08;05 Speaker 2 What else for they saying that that we don't know that we don't focus on? Those stories give me so much life. 00;48;08;09 - 00;48;26;20 Speaker 1 Yeah. And also to to make it mean making. And when we express empathy and make and make these historical actors more empathetic, I think that people can see themselves in them. I thought that people who read her book will think, I want to protect my child, just like. 00;48;26;20 - 00;48;28;03 Speaker 2 They were human beings. 00;48;28;03 - 00;48;33;21 Speaker 1 And, you know, because I want to protect my child, then maybe I want to fight like Daisy Bates. 00;48;33;21 - 00;48;34;18 Speaker 2 Yeah, and. 00;48;34;18 - 00;48;43;04 Speaker 1 Maybe I'm not going to stand for XYZ. Just like, yeah, maybe. Yeah, like solidly. Just like Harriet Tubman. Just like. 00;48;43;08 - 00;48;43;18 Speaker 2 Yeah. 00;48;43;18 - 00;48;46;28 Speaker 1 My mom is a Parker. Yes. Like our Nesta. Yeah. 00;48;47;02 - 00;49;04;25 Speaker 2 Yes. And Carrie Johnson and all the others. Yes. Yeah. We have a litany of people to pull on and that is just that's huge. We don't just have one person. There's so there's legions of people that we can call on to models refusal and resilience and joy. 00;49;04;27 - 00;49;22;15 Speaker 1 And also I think what is also would be so great too, about your perspective is that some people might think that you have privilege, like, you know, that you were very well-educated. Your, your mother and your father well educated, your children, you know, all these benefits, but I'm sure that you have but one. You have to work. 00;49;22;17 - 00;49;23;29 Speaker 1 You can't take that for granted. 00;49;24;00 - 00;49;55;22 Speaker 2 No, no you cannot. No, you cannot. And even though my children are in an excellent school system that I love, it is not a diverse one at all. They are one of a handful of black kids that go to their school, and I am constantly thinking about how I can supplement their education, make sure that they're getting books and representation, and that they're learning lessons about their identity. 00;49;55;25 - 00;50;23;19 Speaker 2 I mean, I think about these things a lot because we can't schools are a powerful institution, and I think schools can be very liberatory or schools can be weaponized, to become exclusive spaces where only the elite get power. And I want school to be to be liberatory. I want school to be where everyone is empowered and everyone has access. 00;50;23;22 - 00;50;53;29 Speaker 2 And some of that can come in the classroom and some of that's got to come from home. And some of that comes from the community. And some of that comes from charter Faith group. So I'm always trying to think about how can we supplement because sometimes I think we become too dependent on institutions to be everything. And right now, schools are being handcuffed to the point where they can't do everything, either resource wise or content and curriculum wise. 00;50;54;02 - 00;51;17;14 Speaker 2 And so, I don't know, when I was growing up, we had things like Saturday school where like on the weekends, we would read books. I grew up in Illinois, suburbs of Chicago. And it was like you would read, you know, these books by authors because it was like, you're going to learn today. You know, like, I think there's something really valuable about getting your community together, coming to a bookstore, coming to a community space and saying, like, who are we reading? 00;51;17;19 - 00;51;44;13 Speaker 2 What are we talking about? Who, what, what are we thinking about today? We have to do that work. We have to supplement because the teachers can't do it. All the faith leaders can't do it all. Parents certainly can't do it all. It's so we are in an all hands on deck moment. Librarians can't do it all. So how do we make sure that we are meeting those needs where others are feeling lack? 00;51;44;16 - 00;52;10;19 Speaker 2 And I think is just so important. And then pushing back, you know, those book bans, you cannot live in a democratic society and banned knowledge and banned books, you know, but I think it's also a powerful reminder that bans are because reading is powerful, knowledge is powerful. That they're not banning things that don't mean anything. 00;52;10;22 - 00;52;20;05 Speaker 2 They're banning things that are very intentional. I don't know, what do you do? How do you think about this moment and especially the state of education? 00;52;20;08 - 00;52;40;28 Speaker 1 I, I think about my, well, my young, my youngest son, who is in his 20s, he's going back to school, so he's, of course, in college, but the way he thinks about, you know, the future and what to value in education and like key. And I'm telling him, you do something that you're passionate about, which you can do for free. 00;52;41;01 - 00;53;01;12 Speaker 1 But also the ways that, you know, I think that there is a generation of students who are thinking about, you know, education of your transactional ways. You know, I go when I how can I make money? How can I get a future? But I do have grandchildren and for my grandchildren, I want them to have the experiences that I had and and reading. 00;53;01;12 - 00;53;20;12 Speaker 1 Yeah. Was central to that. I mean, I was a library kid, but one because my mom because I was like, let's get, you know, how my mom worked in, you know, and and so libraries for me were, were refuges and, what you were talking about the, that, you know, the schools and all these different institutions can't do it alone. 00;53;20;17 - 00;53;40;11 Speaker 1 It's also just to beat them, be reminded of our history. Yeah. And, knowing that one way that we can fight, that we can fight back on many fronts. Yeah. So yes, we can definitely go to school boards and, you know, talk about what shouldn't be banned and what shouldn't. Then we can also step up and fill those gaps. 00;53;40;11 - 00;53;41;13 Speaker 2 Yes. To. 00;53;41;18 - 00;53;44;10 Speaker 1 You know, have, you know, Saturday school. 00;53;44;14 - 00;53;45;21 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. 00;53;45;23 - 00;54;06;07 Speaker 1 Free schools, people like me and you like doing podcast, doing things like this, you know, trying to encourage, you know, more. It's about when books, you know, encouraging more and more people to come out to kind of get, a taste of the knowledge, that is, being, you know, just that people are trying to deny them. 00;54;06;07 - 00;54;14;25 Speaker 1 Yeah. And our hope and then our hope is that that learning doesn't just happen in the classroom. Yeah. Once they get that, you know, that that taste. 00;54;14;25 - 00;54;18;28 Speaker 2 Yeah. Powered. You know. Yeah. I think. 00;54;19;00 - 00;54;38;04 Speaker 1 When you get that taste of power once they, you know, see, there's so many now, there's so many beautiful, you know, books about us and, and our stories and for, for, for all ages from, you know, little toddlers, you know, up to, octogenarians. Yeah. 00;54;38;07 - 00;54;39;09 Speaker 2 And that. Yeah. 00;54;39;09 - 00;54;55;00 Speaker 1 And this is also opening up a world to say that learning, like, take place everywhere you go. Yeah. And so we're still going to fight to, you know, keep, to, to keep our schools in or safe spaces and to make sure that our, you know, our kids are getting what they need. 00;54;55;00 - 00;54;56;18 Speaker 2 Their responsibility here. 00;54;56;21 - 00;55;08;14 Speaker 1 It's also opportunity to say, but in the meantime, we're going to step up, you know, in these way to kind of put these stories, you know, in front of, you know, our, our young people. 00;55;08;15 - 00;55;15;21 Speaker 2 Yeah. No, that's real. That's where we need it all. Hands on deck. Yeah. Let's do that. 00;55;15;21 - 00;55;16;23 Speaker 1 This was lovely. 00;55;16;29 - 00;55;29;14 Speaker 2 This is so lovely. I can't give no better person to be in conversation with in the city that I love. And the bookstore that I love. This was absolutely rich and fantastic. Oh, wow. 00;55;29;17 - 00;55;46;03 Speaker 1 You are rich and fantastic. And before we go, this let me say too, like I, I love being in conversation with you. I was so glad when I was kind of floating like, you know, if you're coming to New Orleans, I would love to talk to you. You know, definitely. Yes. 00;55;46;10 - 00;55;48;28 Speaker 2 Yeah. It's like, yeah, I yeah. 00;55;49;03 - 00;56;11;05 Speaker 1 Because I have to say that you are, you know, just so generous and act to make it live in perpetuity. I do have to say that you know, you, offered to help me. You know, I was kind of flailing at, you know, my new book project, and you were just, like, just I, you know, I didn't even think to ask you or it wasn't anything I was expecting. 00;56;11;05 - 00;56;17;26 Speaker 1 And you were like, oh, wait, I'll read a chapter now. I'll read something. And I was like, yeah, well, you know, like, really? 00;56;17;28 - 00;56;19;25 Speaker 2 And then that chapter to me, right? 00;56;20;02 - 00;56;21;01 Speaker 1 Yeah. 00;56;21;03 - 00;56;22;06 Speaker 2 That said to me. 00;56;22;09 - 00;56;46;29 Speaker 1 You telling me the same thing, I tell this to me now, what are you trying to do? That you would have sent it to me now. And it that your kindness and your generosity and your honesty just unlocks something for me in, reading me over a hump that I had been languishing in for over a year. 00;56;47;01 - 00;56;53;06 Speaker 1 And it just it just helped me. I don't know, I guess. I don't know if you sensed I was struggling. 00;56;53;06 - 00;57;00;08 Speaker 2 No. This is what we do for each other. This is what we do for each other. You know what a solidarity. 00;57;00;10 - 00;57;00;25 Speaker 1 I. 00;57;00;27 - 00;57;14;11 Speaker 2 Cherish. You know?