[00:00:00] Dan: Hello and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast where we explore, how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond.

[00:00:13] Pia: And I am Pia Lee.

[00:00:15] Dan: You are indeed how the devil are you? 

[00:00:17] Pia: I'm very good, indeed. How are you? You had a bit of a shemozzle coming back from Europe, a one and a half hour plane trip turned into four days.

[00:00:27] Dan: Yes. Two days. Yes, I, it, it was my second business flight in, um, since January, 2020 for obvious reasons. Just like everything we do now is virtual, but I went to see a real team, which was a absolute joy, but it, you know, I live in the UK, it was in Barcelona, but it took me two days to get home, honestly. I felt the world is in chaos. When I got back, it's just flights being canceled. The next fight was canceled. I ended up, yeah, it was train planes and automobiles. And I was playing the part with Jon Candy.

[00:00:58] Pia: Perfect. But it's perfect when you just wanna get home, but you know, it is that chaos, it's in our world every day. And I worry slightly that we end up becoming a little bit, uh, numb to, to how we feel about it. And then the division starts, the Roe versus Wade, you know, um, whatever your views are on it, that's going to be a division. It's gonna be divisive the way that that works.

[00:01:26] Dan: Yeah, you can see that mechanism already emerging with the different states taking positions on it. It'll cause moderate people to move. It'll co it's. It's just, just really divisive. And I think if I look back on my travels, you know, I was in, I was as usual counting the people. And I think I was in a queue of over 400 people at the airport. And, you know, it just grinds you down. You end up, you know, just sitting there. So I think it's really incumbent on us, you know, what can we do about this? Lots of things. But one of them I think, is to really make a conscious effort to connect as humans. Be kind, be polite to each other when you finally get to the, get to the front, you're nice to the security people. You know, I think there are loads of forces pulling us apart, and I think we can do some things to, to, uh, pull us together.

[00:02:12] Pia: I think that's so true. I, I, I feel that the external circumstances. Sometimes this happens inside an organization, but sometimes it happens in the world, actually do conspire to pull us apart. And it is up to us to really think about now how, how, because we love it. When we come together, we got, we get a much stronger feeling about it, but there is this sense of sort of survival that we go into in fear that actually pulls us apart.

[00:02:42] Dan: Yeah, you're right. And, and that, and that tribalism is deep within us, but it's not actually helpful for the modern age. Um, that might have been useful back in the day, but it's not actually helpful. We've gotta be very conscious not to respond to those, those forces, I think. And, um, and I guess today is someone who's exemplary in this. Everything we've seen of Mark Steadman, our wonderful producer on this show has been as a cohesive force in the world. So, let's get over and have a listen to what mark has to say about how humans connect to get stuff done together.

[00:03:15] 

[00:03:15] Dan: Mark. It is an absolute joy to welcome you to the show. Thank you so much for being with us.

[00:03:24] Mark: Thank you very much. Huge fan. 

[00:03:25] Dan: Oh, excellent. Well, more than that, mark. You're legend in the studio here. Um, as, um, there is, um,

[00:03:32] Pia: We do refer to you a lot, actually. So the, we it's only because the poor listeners, because you edited it out, but we, we talked to you as this sort of third person, which confuses a lot of our. Our guests actually. Who are you talking to? Mark.

[00:03:47] Dan: We're imagining things. Yeah. And, and also the quality of your work can slightly put off guests sometimes because they think it's, we're incredibly brilliant. Uh, but it's actually your work in the background that will make them feel brilliant 

[00:03:59] Mark: Stop it

[00:03:59] Pia: We're incredibly amateurish actually. 

[00:04:02] Mark: Stop it at once. There are, there are two things there. Uh, firstly, that I have been referred to as, um, a little person who lives in someone's, uh, recorder. So someone has one of these handheld recorders and when they were doing interviews every now and again, they would make a little note and they would sort of look directly into the machine and talk to me.

[00:04:21] Uh, and so yes, the tiny man that lives in my voice, in my voice recorder and, and, and had to explain to some people that Mark is not, I'm not just talking to a thing. And, uh, the, the, the second point is that a job of a good editor is to remain invisible, is to remain undetected. If you can hear and edit, that means I've done a bad job, uh, or it was very difficult to edit because the, the, the job is to it's, if you are doing it well, it's, it's undetectable and you don't think about it. And that is absolutely the, you know, we are stealth. We are ninja. We are meant to get in there and make these changes and, and leave without disturbing a single leaf.

[00:05:00] Dan: Well, whatever you're doing, you're doing it very well. Mark it. And just, just give us the backstory. How did you get to this point today? Tell us a bit about yourself.

[00:05:08] Mark: I was a tech guy for quite a while. And, uh, I worked in slightly uninspiring, digital marketing agencies doing various degrees of slightly uninspiring things. And in 2008, I made my first podcast after listening to them for, for a couple of years. And. I really enjoyed it. I studied radio and media in general, uh, at university, but I, I specialized in radio, so I, I had this love, but we were also building radio, uh, online radio things on demand, radio. The BBC, what is now the BBC eye player, but then was the little, listen again, player that used to pop up. I sort of tried my hand at building something like that back in, you know, 2004 ish and had a lot of fun and learned, learned quite a few things. And then over the years, volunteered with radio stations, helped them get set up, do some live streaming things, do some podcasty things. And as I've described now, is that I started making podcasts or helping people make podcasts for beer. And then, uh, at some point, you know, I stopped being paid in beer and was actually paid in money. Um, but all through that, I had an actual sort of tech, you know, tech job.

[00:06:27] And the two sort of collided in 2016, when I started a media hosting company. So that's a company that, where you actually upload your audio and that's where it lives. And I, uh, finished working on that last year and, and sold, uh, sold that business. And one of the reasons was because I wanted to work more closely with people on an individual level and have a, more of a hand in their success rather than sort of being on the hook for when things went.

[00:06:56] Dan: Wonderful. Well, that is a very good setup for our, for our episode today. Uh, the connection with other humans. Um, but first of all, I'm gonna talk to you a little bit, which is, uh, to play the card game. And I'm gonna randomly choose from this pack of conversation, starter cards, something, a question for you to answer, and here it is. I would send, this is what I would send to room 101. 

[00:07:17] Mark: This might be too meta. I apologize, but I think I would send my own pedantry because it brings no one, any joy. Me, me, none, the least. I don't take joy in pointing out various things.

[00:07:35] And, and as things evolve through trends and things like that, the way we use words have meaning and, uh, or they change meaning. And I'm not, I don't want to be a language prescriptionist, I want to be a descriptionist because I do think language, it does change and it does evolve, but at the same time, I'm like stop using cringe that way. That's not what it means. And I, I. I wish I wish I could put that into room.

[00:08:05] The best thing, the best thing I, I, I came to was realizing that that is just a me thing and I can be okay. I can be annoyed at it and just realize it's just me. It doesn't, it's not about the other person. It's not about someone using that word the wrong way. It's purely about my reaction. And so once you realize that actually takes the edge off of it but I'd still put it in room 101.

[00:08:26] Dan: Very good mark. Very we're on the same journey I think. And, uh, starting to

[00:08:30] Pia: I think you two would be cohabiting room 1 0 1 I

[00:08:34] Dan: well, I'm hoping we, we might stay on the outside and somehow put our pedantry vote in there, but we might just be consigned to be honest. Let's face it. Yeah, exactly.

[00:08:44] Pia: So Mark, we're gonna talk about podcasting. And I must have been when we started this, we thought, oh, what's podcasting got to do with teamwork, but I think podcasting's a very new media and medium, and I would love to know a bit from your perspective, what's the philosophy behind it. How did it emerge? Cuz it's definitely evolved. 

[00:09:07] Mark: it's still evolving,

[00:09:08] Pia: yeah, I think, yeah.

[00:09:09] Mark: to some, well, I would say actually right now, for those within the industry, it is evolving with some controversy as well. But it was. It came from directly from the idea of blogging. So it, it is all, all of the technology is borrowed from blogging and, uh, in some ways, many of the ideas there are borrowed from blogging. As much as we often think about podcasts being true crime dramas or. My dad wrote a, whatever, the big comedy shows, the kind of radio shows. The first podcasts were, were this, you know, um, not over the internet in this way, because those things didn't yet, uh, exist as reliably. But they were just, they were people having conversations and being able to make those conversations available to people. And that is the bit of podcasting. I think that interests me the most. 

[00:10:03] And so I think, um, yeah, it's, it's, it's evolving to become something very different. The technology hasn't the fundamental tech hasn't changed. And that is as much as I'm talking about tech, that is important because it actually. Permeates, so many of the decisions and so many of the limitations around the medium. So very quickly, one of the big things that people talk about in podcasting is this idea of discovery. Of how do you find new new stuff? Right. YouTube. I mean, TikTok has now absolutely nailed this idea. It watches what you watch. It feeds more of what you like and it just, it just perpetuates. All TikTok wants to do is keep feeding you stuff that will entertain you and keep you scrolling. And. YouTube's very good at that as well.

[00:10:52] Podcasting doesn't have that because podcasts live all over the place. They live in different hosting companies and your own website and stuff, and there isn't one central place. And so that, that causes difficulties. And so when I said there there's some controversy that's because there are platforms at the moment who want to own the entire, um, widget and, and own that stack. And so that creates friction. And then, you know, there, there are camps. Now we have the I'm in the Spotify camp or own the whatever camp. And there has been more movement in the industry in the last four years than there was in the previous, um, 10 or 12.

[00:11:28] Dan: um, when I had some, uh, feedback last week about the podcast, which is all positive, fortunately, um, I'm always open to the other kind, but this is really, this is really nice. And, and, um, this chap said, it's just, it's like having you and Pia in the back of the car with me. I, I listened to an episode in one direction episode in the other. It was, and it, and I think I've had that feedback a bit is. What is it about podcasts that makes it so appealing. And so has that intimacy? What, what's the, what's the story around that?

[00:11:54] Mark: So one of the things I, I, I hope we discussed if I did my job, right. Uh, then we would discuss this earlier on, is that I never like to think of, of these conversations as, as interviews. And so my, my particular thing now you make my job very easy as an editor because you hit Record, and then the first, pretty much, the first thing that is said is the first bit of usable audio for me. Whereas I, I actually hit record about five or 10 minutes earlier, and then I SI into the conversation and there's different reasons for doing that.

[00:12:25] But my, my thing is I, I, it can be easy for people to, so, oh, right. I'm in interview mode now. Okay. I must give rehearsed answers. I must be very careful about what I say. And you two, as hosts are very warm and welcoming and, and so you, you don't create that atmosphere, but it's very easy for that to be done. And so that, I, I love that analogy of, of hearing you two in the back of the car, because you two know each other so well, and you've worked together, that that comes across and there is an ease there. Uh, it's like going to see a standup comic. If the standup is nervous, then the rest of the, the audience is kind of a bit on edge. It's kind of a bit nervous. We wanna know, even if it's their character, as long as we know, we feel safe. As long as we know, oh, they've got this, like they, they know where they're going with this. We can all relax and UN clench. And that actually, that, that makes a big difference.

[00:13:20] Pia: We've looked at music as a key element and the, and the teamwork around that. And it does strike me that the whole experience of being involved in this podcast is, is involves teamwork. I mean, it, it, if you, if you weren't as gifted in the background, we, we really would have a lot of ums and ahhs and quite a lot of, um, spoiled content, because I know how much we just, you it's raw. So there there's that knowledge of just, as you say that it's, it's almost invisible. You make us look great. 

[00:13:53] Mark: The job that that's that's the thing I was gonna say is, is like that is the other job it's no, no, no. It's not making you look great because you already are. It's really about, it's the thing of Berocca it's the you, but on a really good day, that is the job it's to make everybody just sound as, without sounding over slick and without going too far into removing every potential thing that isn't a succinct word it's about going in there and just making sure that people. Sound as they would on like on a really good day, literally it's like, you know, those days where you just go really on it today, like I'm really on my game that a good bit of podcast editing. That's what that's about. It's not changing the fundamental tenor of the conversation. It's just like popping, you know, just making it a little bit smarter and, 

[00:14:40] Dan: And Mark, if we zoom out to in your world and look at the, you know, how humans connect to get stuff done, what what's, what does that, you know, we only see a tiny bit of that, actually. I I'm guessing what, what does that look like for you? 

[00:14:52] Mark: One of the things that I've noticed now, and I wrote about this recently on LinkedIn is. So I keep a journal, a sort of weekly journal where I write in every week and I have them for the last nine months. It's got various headings and I remove the ones that I haven't got anything for this week, but it's a way of tracking my progress. So there'll be stuff like, uh, this week I'm celebrating or next week I'm looking forward to this, uh, things that I wish I could have done things I'd like to do more of things that were fun. And then there's this people I talk to section, and that is so often now the longest section, because. I as someone who does tend to work alone, it's quite happy to work alone, but who also enjoys company, you know, I, I live alone as well. Um, and not that I'm, you know, a hermit or anything, but that's just the, you know, those, the, the cards I'm dealt and so I do find myself not only seeking those conversations up, but appreciating them and appreciating building sort of a, a little council, a little, you know, sort of tribal council who can steer me in different directions or sometimes catch me when I'm having a, a day. You know, when I'm having one of those days. As, as I did on Friday, I ended up having two phone conversations with, with someone who's become a dear friend who, who just with a, a few words can, or just a different perspective can can shift. And so when you work, um, you know, in, in that sense, you never really work alone. They're, they're not gonna do the work for you, but you can get these different perspectives. And, and, um, and so, yeah, that's, that's sort of what, what it means to me, cuz I think the world of podcasting, although it is about two or more people, most of the time, two or more people talking to each other, the actual production process and all that kind of stuff for what we do. It's pretty solitary. It tends to be one editor or one producer.

[00:16:49] You take a look at some of the larger organizations, the bigger Gimlet media shows or these NPR shows. They have teams of people. They have several, you know, they, they will have dozen or more people who work on one half hour episode and you sort of think really, wow, okay. But there's fact checkers, there's all sorts of things. Um, and, and they all collaborate and work together to create this seamless whole. Whereas for most of us, it is just, you know, a solid interest thing, which is probably why there are so many podcasts where they bring on other podcasters. Talk about podcasting.

[00:17:21] Dan: It gets a little bit recursive. Doesn't it?

[00:17:24] Mark: No, be now be the snake will eat its tail.

[00:17:27] Pia: And. you've been thinking about mark. Bringing people together in, in this podcasting forum. So that they're not, I mean, you are, you are moving towards that teamwork of how you actually bring people together. Cuz sometimes people might have a great idea about what they'd like to talk about, but, but lack the confidence or think it's going to be a lot harder. Um, and I know that, you know, for Dan and I, like when we started this, we had very, actually we had no experience at all. And so we did doubt ourselves, you know, and you were great at smoothing those ruffles and building our own confidence around it. But I think to do something collectively and get everyone to bounce off each other, that's, that's quite a different idea.

[00:18:15] Mark: Yeah, there's a moment from, so I run a, uh, a little community, um, for, for podcasters. And there was a lovely moment, a few, a couple months ago now where someone was struggling with making a trailer for their podcast. And the story that they had to tell was a very difficult and emotional one. And it was kind of the, the red thread to use a Scandinavian term. It was the sort of the, the, the, the through line for their whole podcast was, was this, this life experience. And it was, I was asking them to, and I, I didn't really have a full sense of this until recently. How big a job I was asking this person to. Can you condense all this pain and, um, and difficulty into yeah. If you could make it under two minutes, that would be great. And don't forget, don't forget to read the call to action at the end, you know, re remember, recommend the show and get people to like, and subscribe. And it's like, once you've fed your soul, do make sure you read the website address. Um,

[00:19:23] Dan: Sound really choppy we're at

[00:19:26] Mark: Yeah. Um, and. And so this, this, this person, uh, I was chatting with our, with our group and this, this person hadn't joined us in the call. And someone said, why don't you invite? Cause I was talking about this person and, and the difficulties that they were having, and it was sticking with me cuz we'd have the, had the conversation probably earlier in, in the day. And I was saying, you know, I'm not entirely sure what more I can do. I changed fundamentally the way I work with this person. And now the way I work as a, as a producer, um, because of realizing where I wanna be the most help. And it is actually, it's less in the, the mouse clicking and it's more in the, in the, the, the meaty human stuff, um, the squishy stuff in between.

[00:20:12] And so we had, so someone said on, on our little community, uh, meetup call, why do you invite this person in? And let's have a chance to see, see, see what we can do. And I don't know, like, I think three of us had something in our eye by the end of the call. It was really, it was really special. It was, it was emotional because there was just really. It wasn't necessarily about coming in and giving advice, you know, someone gave very practical advice. Well, uh, you should tell your story, um, 20 times more so that it's, so that you've told it enough times, and so that it takes the emotion out of it. And someone else has said, well, you know, the emotion is part of the story. And what ended up happening is we just showed this person how much love there was. And, and just, you know, that person felt the love and that's how it ended. And then the sort of the rest of his history, and this person is now an absolute dynamo is making huge, huge strides and I, I couldn't be more, more happy and, and, and proud of this person, but yeah.

[00:21:09] So I think when you get those moments that that can only really happen when you get a couple of people on a little call, you see each other's faces and you, you just open yourself up. And trust each other. Trust is a huge part of what, of, one of the things I talk about. And I think one of the reasons I enjoy working on this show is a lot of the time I'm, I'm listening and I'm editing, and I go, yeah, that absolutely that the, you know, we've talked, I know so many people have talked about it and there's a reason for this, the discussion on psychological safety, that, that original discussion, um, for me just opened up. So, so many things and it's. Yeah, it's coming from a place of trust is one of the fundamental things that I, you know, places, spaces that I like to occupy,

[00:21:56] Dan: And mark, can we just, I'd just like to really pull that thread a little bit, um, observing you working with us, but also I have heard you in these, um, talking about podcasting on podcasts. Um, and for me, the theme that comes through from you in it just came through very strongly is deep care and curiosity. And you, you, you, you have this ability to flex you, you, to, to the people you are working with. And this is it's where did that come from? What, what's your, yeah. What's your experience of working in teams that maybe, maybe it was in eight came out of the womb, but we talk, talk us through that, that how you got to this point.

[00:22:38] Mark: definitely not in eight. I I've so often been the, the squarest of square pegs in teams. Not because I wanted to be obstreperous or difficult, but I often found myself in that position. I often found myself in a, in a sort of oppositional position and, uh, okay. I'll give. So I I've, I dunno if I've brought this up with you before, but one of the revel moments for me this year was, so there's a project that I've been long involved with for now 11 years.

[00:23:12] I it's something. I started, um, a tech platform that I, I started 11 years ago and I've been trying to like homo Simpson backing into the hedge in that gift. I've been trying to very slowly back out of. And I I've sort of, I'm mostly detached from it now, but there was a moment where someone asked, you know, there was something broken and, and they, they needed, you know, cuz there's a new sort of, there's some new guys who are trying to get in there and, and get the thing running and it's announced outsourced team and stuff.

[00:23:41] And so someone broke something and a bunch of websites went down and I went in to start working and fixing and trying to figure out what, what happened. This isn't strictly teams related, but it, it, it will get us there. I think where. I, I, I started realizing, I sat at effing and Jeff and, and blinding and turning the air, blow people already.

[00:24:02] It's what the hell. Right. And it was remarkable that I just, I stopped and I went, you know, that's a thing since I started doing this job, even moving away from the tech side, which I, I really enjoy. So I started working with individuals and 

[00:24:20] helping. 

[00:24:22] I've never once called anyone a moron or an idiot or a, or said they were wasting my time or anything like that. There's never been that that's, that's int you know, and I just sat with that for a minute and went, that's interesting. because I have high standards. I have a difficulty understanding or perhaps believing that those standards are high, because for me they're just standards. Uh, I heard the phrase, I think last week, someone said, quoting someone else, one person's perfectionism is another person's rigor and For me, it's like, that's not perfection. That's, that's, that's getting the job done. Like that's the, that's the job it's to be at this standard. And working within teams that didn't necessarily recognize that at a point in time, when I wasn't able to articulate that I wasn't able to articulate, like we talked about the Petry thing. I, I wasn't yet at that moment where I could say, okay, this is just, this is me and my attitude. I need to be able to take some of that emotion away, strip it back and then try and explain.

[00:25:33] And I always struggled. I always did. I always ended up coming off as passive aggressive or Hey guys, can't we all just do this thing. It'll be super great. If we did, you know, I, I tried all the tactics and it, it, you know, it, it never, it never landed. And I ended up being very frustrated in that role because I constantly felt in opposition.

[00:25:59] And there was, there was a, a moment of, one of the lowlights of my career just in general was, I tried to communicate to someone in a, in a, in a tech project when I'd said sort of don't, don't worry about this thing. I'll sort it out was read as you are not equipped to sort this problem out. So don't worry your pretty little head about it. I will sort it, whereas in, in my thing is, it would be more hassle. You would find it frustrating. It's something I know very well. I can just quickly knock it off. You know, you are on holiday, I'll just knock these bits out and then you can come and you can ti it up and, and put in the polish that you wanna put in. And, you know, I probably didn't communicate that well. And so when the person came back, there was this meeting, there was this all hands meeting. We were a small team, small company, but we had this physical divide in our office of like tech guys on one side and design goes on the other. And that became more apparent when we, we had this, this meeting, which I had no idea was happening. And it was basically, I'm going to tell you the, the, this is unacceptable treatment of me, you know, like this, this person said, you, you treated, you were, you were condescending, you were this, that, and the other, called called me, you know, called a meeting to, to enable this discussion to happen. And it created such a toxic environment because I was completely blindsided, because again, like I hadn't realized I'd I'd I was gonna say hurt this person's view. That sounds more Conant than, I mean, I, I, I. You know, I guess IPU this person's technical, um, abilities, you know, made them feel lesser. And, and that absolutely wasn't my intent. The two of us never really got on anyway. And so, but it really did hit that head and it was it for, for days, you know, the, there was the next day, no one said a single word in the office. You know, we, we all came in and. 

[00:28:10] Dan: It's.

[00:28:10] Mark: One said a word. It was horrid.

[00:28:13] Dan: Brutal. Absolutely brutal.

[00:28:15] Mark: Yeah. 

[00:28:17] I think one of the things that I, I, I would learn from that later is sort of, like I said earlier, it is, it is our own baggage. It is our own things that, that we bring with us, our own preconceptions, our own understandings or misunderstandings about our own, the, the, the ways that we communicate. And once, sometimes I think once you can realize, oh, this is my own stuff. That I'm dealing with, it's less about the other person. Then it can make that stuff a little bit easier to deal with. 

[00:28:55] But I, so I talked about being an outsider, um, and, and I I've always had a sense of playing life somewhat on hard mode. I mean, I, I I'm visually impaired anyway, so I, I sort of, I went to, uh, primary school. Uh, so that's, you. Years, whatever four, till 11, um, at a very, very small school, you know, there were six kids in my class and about 30 kids in the whole school and, you know, I, I, I enjoyed that environment and I kind of felt, felt safe there, and, uh, wasn't a great student, ne never was, um, Disorganized and, um, often described as a way with fairies. Um, these are all, these are all little breadcrumbs that lead us to an eventual.

[00:29:42] Dan: know, I

[00:29:42] Mark: Yeah. Um, and one in, in the last two years, they, they had this program called integration, which is they would take kids who needed it to a larger school a, um, mainstream school as, as it was described. And the idea there would be, you'd be in a, an environment with lots more kids and you'd understand, you know, because this is the world that you will go into. Uh, you won't, you, you will no longer be in classrooms with six kids. And so we did, you know, did that for two years and it was decided that for the second year. I, so it was me and another lad, um, me and another shy boy, we would go once a week and then it was decided in the second year that I would need extra integration. And so would go out for a second day on my own. And there's, there's an interesting thing there, cuz. You can understand from, from a, you know, not to make this a, a therapy session, but the, Hey that's, you know, podcasts often go there. There is this interesting idea of this person struggles being around people. know what let's do. Let's throw them at a bunch of people. That'll fix them. That'll learn, you know, Um, so these, these, we have these moments of discovery that can really help sort of lift the scales from your eyes where you just go, oh, that's why life seems more tricky. or that's why that thing never made sense. Uh, and it's, you know, we now have some more terminology for it. We can talk about neurodivergence, or neurodiversity and we can have a bit more of a shared language there to understand, you know, also understanding I am a highly sensitive individual. That is a thing that's not just a descriptor. You know, that's not just three words. It means something. And it means that I have certain reactions, very sensitive to feeling, um, judgemental, which is sorry, feeling judged, which is one of the reasons that I, I think you, you were sort of, we were sidling up to, to this kind of idea earlier when I'm working with people, I want them to feel as unjudged as possible. I want them to feel as capable as possible, and that they can feel empowered, feel safe, really, really feel safe to go off and do something that might make them sound or seem or feel vulnerable, but to know that that comes from a place of, you know, I'm not gonna go out there and make you look silly. Like that's not my job. I'm, I'm not out there to, to throw you to the wolves of the internet and say, I've taught you all. I know now go off and do the thing. It's like, no, no, I want you to, I, I will do what I can to help you so that you don't feel that. And I think that comes from being very sensitive to, to feeling judged and, and not wanting other people to, to have that sense.

[00:32:48] Dan: I, I think we can certainly say couldn't we Pia, we've seen the positive end of that. I mean, all through this experience, Mark, you, you, and it's great to, it's really interesting to hear where that came from and, um, your own experiences. But what, the way that creation of a safe space for us and the, the encouragement of us to go out and give it a try and be vulnerable actually was, has been the key to any success we've had here. I, I think because we've never had that in the back of our, oh, mock told us to do that, make sure we do that and that, and that and that, um, you know, it's had a huge benefit on us as a team, so it's it. But it, the origin story of that is fascinating and I'm sure our listeners might be able to now just follow their, their own breadcrumbs back and just see, see what's happening for them, where they've got to this, this point. And, uh, yeah. Wonderful story. Thank you. 

[00:33:40] Pia: The other interesting bit about. And I think, you know, we're all, um, sort of roughly similar age group and, um, and from, from the motherland, it's an interesting example to, about what was called attunement for me and how being attuned, so you're talking about that sensitivity and actually being attuned to what other people's feelings are. Whereas what we we brought up with was you're having a feeling stop. It. Don't do that. it. And, and so when I think about teams, I think, ah, you know, we are, I hopefully much better attuned at, at, at not just trying to swipe that out, but actually sort of taking that on board. And as you say, and then also realizing it, as you talked about before that our judgements are obviously often informed by our own experience. And then what we've come to create is a bit of a house of cards about why we're so right about the, another slightly generational perspective.

[00:34:45] So it's, I'm finding a really interesting thing now in my late fifties, God, I'm having to unpack the most I've ever had to unpack. It's crazy. I thought that happened in your twenties, but no, there's a lot of, um, there's a lot of plaque that's built up around the side, somewhere in my life that actually, you know, just to just kind of go, okay, that's cuz the younger generation, which you know, which again, from a perspective of leading people and being in teams have a different, different view of it. I mean, I think you said this on an email the other day, Dan, that, you know, your, your daughters will know that they've St something's happened or that they feel something, but they'll say it, and they're perfectly clear about it, whereas we weren't

[00:35:30] Dan: Let's play name, that emotion not suppress it like we used to. Yeah. Yeah. absolutely. It's wonderful. Mark. Um, it's that has that shed a lot of light, genuinely, um, fascinating to see where, where your, your approach now comes from. Uh, You, do you connect with a lot of humans. We, we may have covered this already, but how, how would you, how would you leave us? What's what could you leave our listener with, if you are working with someone new, if you're working with a group, a team of community, all the things that you do, what's some, what's a little nugget you could leave us with?

[00:36:05] Mark: Be okay with your own, your own stuff, be comfortable with your own baggage. And when I say comfortable, I mean, be able to be able to, to, to put it down or to ask someone for, for help with it. Uh, if it, if, if those bricks that you carry on your back are feeling, um, Particularly heavy on one day you can it's it's okay to ask for help. And if help doesn't come, or if people don't understand, then seek help from, from those who do, seek counsel from those who do, whether that's a friend down the pub or whatever, then you can just have, have that moment to just put your bag of bricks down because we're all carrying them. And sometimes if you. It's surprising sometimes actually, if you open your bag of bricks up, uh, and, and you sit with someone who opens their bag of bricks up and you can swap them and you can look at them and go, oh, wow. I hadn't realized I look at things that way, or, oh no, I knew that terminology. I hadn't thought about that. Oh no, that does make sense. Um, rather than hold them so tightly and, and think, you know, this is mine. I must bear this weight alone. This is what I have to do as a human being. It's like, no, we can, we can take these, these bags, bags of bricks and we can put them down every now and again, and also recognize that it's okay when that, when that bag feels too heavy sometimes. And to, to just look after yourself and just to go, you know what, stuff's hard sometimes. And actually just sit with that, uh, and, and, and be okay with that. And I, so I think that comes back to teams because, when the weight of those bricks that we carry feels too heavy, that's when we have those moments of being spiky or, or, um, or not communicating with being sort of, if we're out of alignment, uh, or, you know, if we feel unsafe or we create accidentally, uh, uh, a space of that that feels less safe. Um, and I think that just comes from remembering. These are. These aren't these emotions, these things that we feel, these difficulties, they're not us, they're the, they're the bricks in the bag, uh, that, that we carry. And we have options there, as I said, we can swap and we can put 'em down for, for a little bit. And then, um, and then I can trail off. Um, as I so often do, because there are no more words.

[00:38:34] Dan: that's marvelous. good. And the editor will sort everything out. So you 

[00:38:38] Mark: an edit point for.

[00:38:39] Dan: Mark, that, that just, I, I think it really goes to the heart of what we are trying to do here, actually helping humans to connect, to get stuff done together. And you've, you've just really reached in and touched something there, I think that, that, um, that it's so instructive, but also wanted to thank you. Uh, so it's great to hear your voice. In this, um, but also thank you for everything you've done as part of our purpose for those helping those humans to connect. So it's been wonderful to actually have you on the show and hear your voice.

[00:39:07] Mark: Thank you for being two people who, who get it. 

[00:39:13] Pia: Don't know what they're talking about. 

[00:39:15] Mark: Stop it at once. I will. I will. I will come over there. Don't don't make me turn this car around. Um, for being two people who actually, who get what, who understand the purpose behind this, this show for you, you understand what you wanna get out of this and what you do and what I try and do is in pursuit of that. And I think that actually that sort of alignment of expectations, that alignment of, um, yeah, of ideas of principles of, of what we wanna gain from this has a huge impact actually. Um, and, and so I really appreciate getting to work with a couple of people who are like, and who are also good at saying, no, that's not an area that we wanna go down, but to, to, to actually fundamentally get why this medium is, is so valuable for deepening conversation. So thank you.

[00:40:03] Pia: And thank you too. Thank you too. It's an absolute pleasure to work with you.

[00:40:06] 

[00:40:06] Pia: That was quite a profound conversation. Um, you know, that it struck me that, um, and I think Mark was incredibly humble about it, but he had some adversity in his life and, um, chooses what appears to be sort of quite a, a solitary type of work on the, on the face of it. And, you know, as he said, living by himself, but gosh, I was just bowled over by his warmheartedness and his team spirit, and this just huge care for people based on, you know, on the way that he sees the value of human beings. So it, it kind of, it, it blew a through the myths of podcasting out of the water really, but I think, yeah, just the man behind it. What his intent is and how he's really giving voice to people I thought was, um, was really impressive.

[00:41:11] Dan: Yeah, and I think he has chosen this. It seemed, he certainly having seen him in action. He uses the podcast medium, exactly that way to, to help humans connect. And I really, I, I, that hearing him tell his backstory, you know, when you like the, you know, like the prequel to see, where did that come from and hearing how, you know, his schooling and his early background could, could have left, you know, left him with a feeling of otherness, you know, quite sort of probably a bit different, but he he's managed to instead. Allowing that to take him in a negative direction, he's really, it's helped him to really understand himself and to bring others in and, and his, every, everything he does is really aligned to that. So, so inclusive and caring it's um, and it's, it's great, but it prompted for me thinking actually, we should all do that. We need to all go back, look at our, look at our line of things. I think it's very easy for us to think. Oh, he was partially sighted. He had a different life in that limb. There. We've all got something partial in our lives. You know, if we go back and look at it, what's our origin story and say, why do I believe this now? And say, I've really hold these beliefs stronger. I see life in this way, but why is that? and am I holding it too tightly because of that background? What could I do do differently as a result of that?

[00:42:33] Pia: I think which ties in what we were talking about at the beginning, because probably if we all do a bit of work on ourselves, then we probably won't be getting into some of these divisive messes that we , that we can quickly tip ourselves into, you know, which team do I choose, you know? A or B and, and I think that's, not gonna solve, solve anything in that respect.

[00:42:52] And I think, I think, I think he was incredibly gracious and humble in the way that he saw things. As you say, I think that's, uh, I think there's a, there's a big lesson to be learned from that from all of 

[00:43:03] Dan: Yep. Definitely. And, and because these things harden as well, we, they, they have an emotional overlay. Don't they, things that we have from our families, we quite often, you know, call them values and then we stand by them. They actually are identity. So we fight for them and, and things go a bit wrong. So all of that without being UN becoming untethered, you know, we have to, we have to examine it. I, I think it's a good exercise for us all.

[00:43:26] Pia: And I think that it's seeing yourself as, as evolving, rather than seeing yourself as set. And I think there's a part around what I like to is that, you know, he addressed that he had vulnerability as we all do. And I think there's a, we sometimes believe that we have to be fully okay. Or if we're not okay, we have to get better. Whereas actually I think when I've really learned, particularly over the last few years, it's messy and just be okay in the mess sometimes and you'll get some. Pretty good gems out of that as well. And sometimes it's, it's like the weather it's sunny. Sometimes it's raining. Sometimes it's cold sometimes it's, you know about it's just, but it's actually being rich in all of it, because then I think you become more, which we talked about with other people on this show, more compassionate. You stop judging it. Which is really, you're just being fearful that they're not okay and everything's okay. And wanting to control it. Never, never, ever come across anyone like that at all

[00:44:25] Dan: No, no, no. None of us, no, no far from it far from it. No, but you're so right. I mean, it is always gonna be messy. There is a, you know, I find myself doing it in these crazy times, you know, we talk to the top of the show about this chaos and I'm, I find myself saying, ah, well, when this passes, you know, once we can do this or, you know, particularly, we've got a lot of stuff going on in the house and blah, blah, you know, things going on, ah, okay. We'll just keep working on through. And when that's done. Then I'll, I'll be sort of calmer, happier, be able to do whatever that, that is totally the wrong way to go about it because it's that mess is with us and actually learning to live with it is the, um,

[00:45:03] Pia: Yeah. And embrace it and laugh at it. Or actually go, go and have a cry about it or go out to the pub with someone, have a moan about it, but don't keep going. Don't don't let it control you cuz it's just out there. it's just there. 

[00:45:18] Dan: And we're all, um, yeah, we've just got to get good at it. That's all just try to get, get better every day. And your point about evolution is a really good segue Pia into our next week's show because we have Dave Claire on the show who is a consultant who works with leaders and teams. So he knows a lot about this. And one of. Focus is about Lee evolution. How can teams evolve? So I'm really looking forward to building our conversations about how humans and teams can evolve. So, um, we'll talk to Dave in the coming week. 

[00:45:46] But that is it. For this episode, you can find show notes and resources at spotify.net. Just click on the We Not Me podcast link. If you've enjoyed the show, please do share the love and recommend it to your lovely friends. Also, please do give us a radio on a favorite podcast. You can also contribute to the show by leaving us a voice note with a question or a comment, just find the link in the show notes.

[00:46:09] We, not me, as we all know now is produced by Mark Steadman of Origin FM, and what a legend. He is. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye for me.

[00:46:19] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.