Pete Wright: I'm Pete Wright.
Andy Nelson: And I'm Andy Nelson.
Pete Wright: Welcome to the next reel, when the movie ends.
Andy Nelson: Our conversation begins.
Pete Wright: Ballerina is over. Do you like to dance? I know a school where they teach dance. I could take you there if you like.
Trailer: To stop the assassin, you must become the assassin. You will always be weaker. You will always be smaller. You want to win? Improvise.
Adapt. Cheat. Welcome to the Continuum. Yves Macharo of the Rus' Aroma. What a pleasure to see you again.
You have no idea what you just walked into. They killed my father. This isn't done until they're dead. Fate is a very humbling thing. You're him.
The one they call the Baba Yaga. How do I start doing what you do? Looks like you already have.
Andy Nelson: Wow. You just you just perved out, Winston. Yep. More than anyone ever needed to.
Pete Wright: I sure did. Perveroony. Oh, ballerina. We're kicking it off with ballerina. How did we get here?
Andy Nelson: Okay. So so we're covering this for two reasons. One, because we did the John Wick series, and now that there's a new movie out, we decided let's add on this new this new film to that series of episodes that we had already discussed, John Wick one through four, and here we are doing ballerina. Also, we're, you know, part of the process of this whole the rest of 2025 really is we're kind of celebrating a 100 of I mean, movies have been around longer than a hundred years, but we're celebrating films from the last one hundred years, and we're starting and we're going backwards, or we're starting in 2025 celebrating this film, and then we'll jump back twenty five years in increments for our next few series. So, anyway, here we are with Ballerina.
Pete Wright: And that's the thing. I mean, you're the one who brought that level of planning and insight. My series were not so nearly so appropriate to the theme, but I love that I get to ride along.
Andy Nelson: You you get to come along for the ride. Exactly. So
Pete Wright: This is what the season's gonna feel like. Thoughtful Andy. Thoughtful Andy. Thoughtful Andy. ADHD Pete.
Andy Nelson: Anyway, here they have a podcast for that, Pete.
Pete Wright: I don't know anything about that.
Andy Nelson: Check it out. Okay.
Pete Wright: So first, let's just do a reset a little bit about the John Wick cinematic universe. And the the central question I wanna get to is this. Were you looking forward to the John Wick universe expanding beyond the Wick franchise itself. And and I I could also say, referring to the Continental on Peacock and now Ballerina, was this something that you wanted and expected and were excited about?
Andy Nelson: I don't think I wanted it, expected it. It was something that they I think the the studio, the the producers, and the the team over at Lionsgate felt that this franchise was a big surprise and a big success for them, and they wanted to keep it going. And, you know, I think, Chad Stahelski and and Keanu Reeves really felt like it had kind of run its course, and ending the way John Wickford did felt like a good finality to that storyline. And we kind of see John go through that whole process of revenge over four films, and they felt like it ended where it needed to end. But as studios are, you know, there's the creative side of things, and they felt this was a great way to end it.
And then there's the studio money making side of things, and they said, hey. Hey. Wait. Wait. Wait.
Wait a minute.
Pete Wright: Yeah. My god. You guys, did you forget we're capitalists?
Andy Nelson: We can make so much more money from this. Let's keep it going. So, yeah, so they had the continental series, which, you know, sounds like Chad Stahelski really wasn't involved with, and it it doesn't sound like because of that reason, it sounds like it kind of fell apart quite a bit. And then we'll talk about the crazy level of planning that they're currently doing for sequels and remakes because there potentially are a lot. I don't know if that's changed with the release of this film and how it's how it's doing in theaters, but they are intending on quite a bit of things.
You know? I don't know. We're also in an age of studios promoting films that they may or may not make. Just I mean, we see that with Star Wars where they've talked about god only knows how many different potential new films and series that we're gonna have, and then I think most of them have gone by the wayside. And that's potentially where we are with John Wick as well.
So back to your question, I once I knew that this was coming, I was a little bit excited, you know, curious and excited. And I, you know, I was like, hey. You know what? I and I mean, I've never been as, like, five star in a heart in love with the John Wick films as some people are. I enjoy the stunt work.
I am incredibly impressed with what Stahelski and his team have put together with this franchise. And I always have fun, and I think that's the thing is like, I I I walked into ballerina going, at the very least, I hope I have a fun time with it. And that's kind of was my level of expectation with it.
Pete Wright: I think I got more excited when I found out early on that they were doing this with Ananda Armas. I think she has a a stunt fight bit in the latest James Bond movie that I thought was beautiful and elegant and showcased a physicality of hers that I think was was just exceptional. I thought it was beautifully made. So I got really excited about it. Also, I have been a huge fan of the range that she's been able to bring from Knives Out, which I thought she was great and and had a really sort of subdued performance, subdued and panicked and and anxiety ridden and also kinda dominating by the end.
It was a good turn. I, you know, I I think when I think of her, I think about that moment when Gosling gives her the remote projector in Blade Runner twenty forty nine, and we get this piece of emotional acting that I did not think she was capable of doing. So I was very high on the idea of this movie when the first trailer started to drop. And since then, it's been kind of a roller coaster. Right?
The the the movie had reshoots, etcetera. Stahelski came back in to do some things for it. Then we start getting these trailers with Keanu in them, and I thought, okay. What are we doing right now? Does the studio have faith that the franchise can exist beyond Keanu Reeves or not?
I started losing hope a little bit. I gotta tell you. And then I saw the movie, and that's where we are today.
Andy Nelson: I just wanna continue that thought first because it's an interesting element.
Pete Wright: Had you not considered that?
Andy Nelson: Oh, no. No. I Okay. I I I definitely think that, but I think that it's interesting just to kind of, like, look at the idea of these franchises that that are being made, and especially when they are the foundation of the franchise is a person. Jason Bourne, we kind of had a struggle when Bourne Legacy came out even though it's still kind of in that world.
Right? James Bond potentially is gonna run into similar sorts of issues with Amazon now at the helm, and we know they're penchant for turning franchises that they buy into TV series. And we've already heard potential chatter about some some side character James Bond shows, and I just don't know how well those would do or if people want them. And this is exactly the same thing here. It's the John Wick franchise.
Right? It was it was never born the universe of the continental or of the high table. Right? It's it is the John Wick franchise. And they are now trying to figure out how can we keep this going by shoehorning these other stories into it.
And that's the big question, as you said. Like, are we going to have to find ways to continue including John in these as we move forward? That's a big question. And that leads us to a conversation about, about the film. And do you wanna start this conversation about, well, let's just start with our initial thoughts.
Let's just dig into that first, and then we can jump into kind of like the this universe, the Rusk aroma, the high table, the cult, etcetera. Right.
Pete Wright: Right. Okay.
Andy Nelson: Thoughts on thoughts on the film?
Pete Wright: It's I there's so much of this movie that I think is is solid. Like, the way the movie moves is generally good if clumsy. The stunts, the fights, that's what I show up for this movie for, were good. They were generally good. Were they what I think exceptional as in the rest of the John Wick franchise?
Did I see anything as straight up cool and innovative as, like, the over the top camera action scene that we got in the last John Wick movie? No. I I felt like this was a a bit of a of a retread with a new principal character. The new principal character, I think, is capably physical. Right?
I liked watching Anna D'Armas fight. I think she's good at it. I'd like to see her do more. My principal challenge with the movie is I just didn't believe a single word anyone was saying. I think the script was not great.
That's not to say that I thought the original John Wick scripts were great, but watching this movie helped me recognize that they were actually very, very good. And everyone that was written into the movie was believable in their role. Anna D'Armas' words in particular were just it's like they were written for a different actress. It felt kludgy, clumsy, under and overwritten in turn. I that part, I really struggled with, and I wanted so badly to love it.
How about you? Do you see any of that?
Andy Nelson: No. I didn't. I didn't have any issues with with that stuff. I I felt it was fine. It's it's all this strange underground universe that we're buying into.
And so everyone's always kind of had some strange dialogue within it, you know, the talk about the continental and the high table and like, all of these different groups and their interactions and everything. So I think I can see what you're saying. I guess maybe it's just it didn't really bug me too much. Like, I didn't have any real script issues with this so much. You know, I I I felt that for the most part, you know, I I enjoyed what they were doing in the universe.
I thought I thought it played okay. And if anything, I think, you know, we have a a different director here, and and I definitely could sense that some of the direction didn't feel quite as quite as well handled through the story. And I think more than the script, I think that's where I struggled the most. And I'm trying to think so so the script on this one was Shay Shay Hatton, who wrote John Wick co wrote John Wick chapter four, which which I liked, and and he co wrote that with Michael Finch who hadn't been involved in the franchise and doesn't look like his or or actually is one of the writers on John Wick chapter five. So oh, Shay Shay Hatton also was involved in John Wick chapter three parabellum, one of four writers on that one.
But Derek Kolstad, who wrote the first two, also was co writing that one.
Pete Wright: But Derek Kolstad has moved on to, like, nobody. Right? I mean, it feels I know he's still involved in John Wick very much, but he's also, like, he is a very capable originator of these ideas.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. Right. And so now this is Shay's single entry. Since Derek, this is the first the first script of this franchise that has had a solo story credit writer, screenwriter credit to it. Right.
Pete Wright: So we have an we have a solo writer and a new director.
Andy Nelson: Well and but, you know, an interesting thing about this, and this is I I don't know if this fits into this, but this was one of these scripts. I mean, Shay had written this script. It was a spec script called ballerina. Lionsgate decided to shoehorn it into the John Wick franchise. They liked the tone of it so much that that's why they brought him on to do to work on chapter three and chapter four.
But, yeah, this you know, we've I I I know we've talked about this in other particular series that we've covered before, but this is a separate script that they said, let's figure out how we can work it into this world.
Pete Wright: Okay. I mean, when you're watching that, do you feel it?
Andy Nelson: I don't think I feel it so much because I mean, I don't know. Who knows? Maybe because of this script, that's why they added the Rusca Roma and the ballerina stuff that we saw in John Wick chapter three, Parabellum. And they said, let's kind of use this script as the foundation for this whole idea. I don't know.
I I don't think I felt that necessarily because it just also feels just another revenge story in this universe. Like, it just didn't feel as successful, but I think I can see some of it might be the script. Some of it might be the direction.
Pete Wright: This is one of those movies where we again, we've taken on this question before, and I think that this movie is actually one of the more successful explorations of shoehorning an alternate unintended script into an existing universe. I did not feel like like this was just jammed in here. It actually felt of a piece with John Wick. It felt like an intentional exploration of this expanded universe. And, sure, some of that has to do with the extended reshoots and changes, but the overall feeling and the way they integrated the timeline, I thought was really weirdly charming.
The fact that we had Wick at the ballet studio, and we had the tattoo and the branding and the all of that stuff that she was witnessing, I thought was really neat. Right? And if it's were were George Lucas, he would go back and remake the first one and include a digital Ananda Armas peeking through the door, which I think would be horrible. But the idea that this is placed in timeline, I thought, was very successful. I really liked it.
I I thought that was that was good.
Andy Nelson: I I didn't really have any issues with that, although I did have a question because so this takes place we like, at the point in John Wick chapter three where he is has turned in his, you know, get out of jail free card essentially to the Ruscaroma so that he can get away and and flee the country. And that's what that's what sends him off to to Africa. And and he has been, ex ex communicado as we recall from that film. Yet, why is it okay for the director, Angelica Houston's character, to then still call him for help? And so that was so there there were I actually have a series of questions, like story questions that
Pete Wright: I Alright.
Andy Nelson: That I had, and that's one of them. It's like, why was that okay? Because I thought he's excommunicado. So is this an illicit call to John that that no one else is aware of? I mean, obviously, the cult is like another group that everyone knows about.
So I'm assuming if they see John, they're just gonna tell everybody, hey. The director called John on us, and he's excommunicado. I don't know.
Pete Wright: Well, yeah, I don't I think you have a really good that's a good question. A good foundational question. And I didn't spend a whole lot of time trying to unravel those particular questions. That one in particular felt to me like and I'm sure this is faulty logic. Like, wasn't excommunicado.
It just means he is like, he can't count on her for help, and everyone's out to to get him, and he can't go into the Continentals. But that doesn't mean he can't be called upon to clean up a mess.
Andy Nelson: I think your writing re like, version of it in your head is exactly probably what they said in their writer in the as the writing team or as Shay was
Pete Wright: Which and let's be clear. That's sloppy. Right? For for a universe that is generally pretty meticulous, that's a little bit sloppy and hand wavy, but that's what was in my head. I didn't have a huge problem with it.
Andy Nelson: Alright. So other questions I have. Do want me to just go through these?
Pete Wright: Yeah. Let's do let's do this. Okay. This is good.
Andy Nelson: Okay. So at the we see okay. So the story is set up It's hard
Pete Wright: to even ask the questions. Questions.
Andy Nelson: No. No. I just I feel like I've gotta do some setup. Right? Yeah.
So we we know that Eve, her dad was her dad, Javier, he's Rusca Roma. His wife is the cult. And the cult wants the daughter, and he kidnaps her, and so they kill him. So wouldn't that already be, like, some form of conflict, like, with this thousand years of peace that they're interrupting? And, you know, and it's it's like, are they creating, like, the sense that the cult is so powerful that they can still get away with this and no one is gonna respond?
Pete Wright: Well, that's interesting because, again, headcanon. I got the feeling that this was considered their mess, the cult's mess, and they were going to take action to clean it up.
Andy Nelson: Wait. Wait. What what this being Javier or this being
Pete Wright: Javier kidnapping the girl and trying to escape. And so given other things that are naturally taken care of in the John Wick universe, that that would have been written into the doctrine of the thousand years of peace. We're gonna take care of our own business, and you can't, like, you can't judge grudge us for that. This is considered our business. We're gonna take care of it.
Andy Nelson: So the fact that Javier, even though he's Roscaroma, the fact that he kidnaps or he and his wife, presumably together, they try to make off with their daughter. The wife gets caught and killed for this. And so
Pete Wright: But she was cult.
Andy Nelson: But she was cult. It's just it's odd that Ruscaroma still has no say in that situation when they kill one of Ruscaroma's own.
Pete Wright: I'll I'll give you odd. I'll give you unexplained. But I also think that they saw the girl as cult property, and they wanted their property back.
Andy Nelson: Right. But, again, that that in no way should it allow them to get away with killing one of Ruscaromas in this so called thousand years of peace.
Pete Wright: Yeah. But what is peace between factions of murderous assassins? Right?
Andy Nelson: Yeah. I know. That's it's all very odd.
Pete Wright: Okay. What's your next question?
Andy Nelson: So she does I love that
Pete Wright: these questions have put me defending this wacky movie. This is great. I love this.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. So early in the film, once the once we've met Eve and she's started this world of becoming a an assassin, we see her go on a on a hit. Or let's see. Is it the hit, or is it when now see, it's been long enough where I've seen this. I'm trying to remember.
She comes stumbling out of the bar or wherever she had been in, and the cult immediately, like, starts attacking her. Like, they they hit her with a car, and then they jump out, and they're all trying
Pete Wright: to kill her.
Andy Nelson: Right? Do you remember this scene? Was this
Pete Wright: before or after the ice dance club?
Andy Nelson: The dance club, I think, is
Pete Wright: That was her first mission where she's sent to protect to get this girl.
Andy Nelson: Right. So she protects the girl. This is later. And and it starts like she had just finished killing everybody. Right?
So we see her in, a bathroom or something like herself, and then we see that there's dead bodies on the floor.
Pete Wright: Yeah. She comes out and is just littered
Andy Nelson: with dead Dead bodies. Bodies. So she sees everybody, and then she walks outside, and that's when she's crossing the street. And this car comes out of nowhere and just hits her, and then they try killing her. And that's when she learns that these are members of the cult.
Mhmm. Why, at this point, are they trying to kill her? Like, it literally looks like they're targeting her, and there's nothing that had been set up as to why they would be targeting her at this particular point in time.
Pete Wright: Okay. Headcanon response. The the place where all the bodies are were all cult members. That's why they're all dead. She was in a cult facility.
Andy Nelson: Ah, but that wouldn't make sense because she's on a mission per the director, and the director knows that there is this long standing truce that they have with the cult. They're not gonna go in and kill anybody that's cult.
Pete Wright: Oh, Andy, you might have me on that one. See? You might have me on that one. What I was going to say is the assassin Uber was late for those last guys. They just were tardy for the party.
Okay. Alright. But I don't I think you've I think you're right. You you one upped me. You went one step back, and that she would have known why would she have done this.
Unless that's part of the setup we're to understand that it was the director who assigned an anti cult mission when she shouldn't have, and that's what gets everybody mad at each other.
Andy Nelson: I don't know. I don't know. I I struggled with that one.
Pete Wright: We'll call that one a wash. Alright. What's your next question?
Andy Nelson: This was a weird one. She goes into the continental to to protect this guy. This is Norman Reedus' character who's he's also an assassin, and he he is the son of the chancellor, who is Gabriel Byrne, who runs the cult. He's trying to escape with his daughter, but
Pete Wright: the cult wants them back. So she's mirror of exactly what happened twenty years ago.
Andy Nelson: Right. Exactly. So she's in here. She's gonna kill him, and then she sees the the kid and is like, oh, I guess I can't do this now. Other people use this as an excuse to come in and start shooting the place up.
Right? And they're cult members. Not just cult members, but all sorts of assassins. Like,
Pete Wright: there's this all It was the she had upped the bounty on him from 2 to 4,000,000, which meant everybody wanted a piece of that.
Andy Nelson: Everybody wants to kill this guy now. So everyone's going after Daniel, and two in particular that break into the room first to start doing it. Nobody ends up getting killed, but they do this moment where, continental security, after this whole thing is over and and she's helped Daniel and his daughter escape, continental security has her and these other two people held, and they end up killing these other two because I thought it was because blood had to be spilled that they would actually do this. Like, they talk about killing like, anyone who's killed somebody on the grounds of the continental has to die. These two people didn't kill anybody.
Everyone ended up making it out. And they don't kill Eve because she was only protecting herself. Did these other two people get killed because just for the simple fact that they started it?
Pete Wright: I think so. I think it's playground rules in the continental. That's what it is. They started it, and so they're dead.
Andy Nelson: Alright. Alright. Here's another one. What is it about the what why is everybody so secretive about the cult? They seem fine talking about the high table or all of these other different groups.
But when it comes to the cult, they're like, oh, we don't we don't talk about the cult.
Pete Wright: Do you know this one this is I I wonder about this one. So what they're trying to set up is that the cult is somehow prime among peers in terms of killers. They are the most dangerous.
Andy Nelson: Are they trying to set that up?
Pete Wright: I well, I thought so. Like, that that was the only reason I could buy that they were so terrified of the cult, was that they were the most, like, unprincipled violent group. And if you poke them, you're poking the dragon bear owl wolf, and it would come for you in the night. It was the scariest of the scary, which is weird because all of the other factions are also giant groups of assassins who are well trained. In fact, those are the groups that principally or or presumably trained every member of the cult because aren't they all retirees of the other families?
They're all ex ex assassins? Are they? Who decided to settle down in the mountains and and raise a family?
Andy Nelson: I didn't think that. Did they say that? That this was the cult
Pete Wright: that I thought that's what that was.
Andy Nelson: I didn't think it was a town where people retired. I thought it was just their own weird little cult town where it's it's just like, you know, that town in northern the border of Northern Arizona next to Utah where that cult guy, like, has all the like, everyone there is, like, you know, having babies for the one guy. It's like these creepy sorts of towns, and I just thought they were trying to make it a sense that this particular town exists because the cult lives there.
Pete Wright: Right. The antagonist group led by Gabriel Burns, the chancellor, functions less like a traditional religious cult and more like a doomsday cabal of retired killers. These are the people who have become disillusioned with the High Table's rule, and instead of disappearing quietly, they form their own shadow society. Their ideology appear is built around purging the world of corrupted operatives, those who defy the rules or stray from purpose like Eve. That's what the cult is.
What? He says it. He when he tells her, he says, you gotta come join us because you gotta come be a part. Aren't you tired of taking their orders? That's what the cult is.
You like it less. This is worse. This is for you.
Andy Nelson: Well, it's just it's odd is what it is. I don't know. It's it especially because, like, I don't know. I I I struggle with it because it just doesn't really make any sense. But, you know, this is a strange world anyway.
I don't know if if that makes it any worse or just stranger for me.
Pete Wright: Many of these cult members were once part of the same assassin ecosystem, trained in arts like ballet, combat, and etiquette, naturally the big three, and have since radicalized. This is the evolution in the John Wick mythology, the idea that the underworld isn't just an economy of blood, but a belief system. And belief systems, when fractured, give rise to extremism. Are you on the John Wick wiki? I love wiki fandom pages.
Andy Nelson: The the John Wick one is pretty robust.
Pete Wright: So I think that they're they're trying something new. Now the question is, does the cult live beyond this movie?
Andy Nelson: I mean, I feel like now that it's been brought up, they'll probably mention it in passing, I'm sure. You know? It's just one of these things where these these different elements kind of keep popping up in one way or another. I don't know if it needs to be brought up in a big way, but I don't know why it wouldn't be, you know?
Pete Wright: Yeah. Okay. There you go.
Andy Nelson: Alright. My my last question. How does Winston end up at the police station in the first place? Like, was he tracking her? Like, what what about that moment makes sense as far as him just showing up suddenly to to pick up little little girl Eve at the beginning after her she escapes when they kill her dad?
Pete Wright: I think the question that question is important, but also kind of answered in the fact that Winston, as the proprietor of the continental, is sort of a character of magical realism. Right? There's there's stuff that he's allowed to know because of his network and his system that we don't get to see, but it makes him look like an oracle.
Andy Nelson: It does.
Pete Wright: So I I I honestly never questioned why he ended up there because he kinda knows everything that happens in the world of assassins. So why wouldn't he know that there was this attack and that the girl survived and that he could maybe make use of her someday?
Andy Nelson: I can see that. I also think that there's some level where some of these different parties can use Winston as a vessel for getting things done because he's
Pete Wright: Yes.
Andy Nelson: Theoretically neutral. Right? Right. And it's entirely possible that even though there's this thousand year piece in this, there's still kind of this conflict between Ruscaroma and the cult, particularly because the cult killed this Ruscaroma member, Javier, it's entirely possible that the director had been kind of tracking all of that and told Winston, I need you to go pick up Eve and bring her here. Like, that's possible.
Pete Wright: Yeah. It's all part of the network that Winston is kind of at the middle of.
Andy Nelson: Although now I'm trying to remember, when she first is dropped off at the ballet school, does the director act like she knows who she is? I can't remember now.
Pete Wright: That's a good question. I I don't remember having seen it just the once. I don't remember how she was affected. Okay. Mostly because how could you tell anything about how Angelica Houston was affected in this movie?
She made no face motions.
Andy Nelson: She was fine. Yeah. I I just enjoy still seeing Angelica Houston. I've always enjoyed her, but yeah. And it's just I don't know.
I kind of always chuckle when I see her in this particular franchise because of everything she's done. This just seems like such a an odd turn for her. But
Pete Wright: Yeah. I think so.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. But I kind of enjoy it. So yeah. Okay. So let's talk a little bit about just the story and I mean, a lot of these questions were the story and issues with the story, but also some of the direction.
And then I I think that we definitely wanna talk into some of the stunt work because that's clearly what this franchise is probably most known for.
Pete Wright: Yes. The big the principal big stunt scenes.
Andy Nelson: I mean, I know you struggled with the script, but as far as the plot and the basic concept of it, do you kind of buy into this revenge story that she has?
Pete Wright: Yes. Because I'm a sucker for John Wick revenge stories. I really am. And and so I don't think that some of the quibbles that you just brought up, they didn't hit me because I was I allowed myself to get very much into this movie. And the fact that it was a parent child kind of a rescue, it felt it felt like something easy to believe that Eve would get, you know, sucked into it to the point that she would violate norms that have been set up in the universe.
I bought all of that. So in terms of the story story, it was good for me. I had a good time. It's really just the the way the characters were written, the the way they the way they performed their roles that from the script that that gave me trouble. That was it.
Also, Lance Reddick, man. Come on. We get one more Lance Reddick this far after. That's extraordinary.
Andy Nelson: I I I think I largely agree with you. I enjoyed the story, the concepts of this. Again, I felt like Shay had done an able job of adapting his previous script into this world. Like, I felt like this felt like it kind of fit in with all of this, and so I enjoyed this different revenge story that that we had and the way that it played. I definitely do have some of these like, the quibbles are gonna be ones that will always pop up in my head as I rewatch this because things just aren't necessarily always gonna make sense.
I felt like, you know, if if any of the John Wick stories I struggled with just kind of some of the story concepts, this one seems like the one that is probably gonna give me the most trouble. But I I mean, yeah, I agree with you. I still enjoyed it. You know? And I don't know if I had as much struggle with the script as you did, as we've already said, but I do think it's understandable.
And I think perhaps that, you know, gives us room to chat a little bit about Len Wiseman. We've talked about Len's films a few times because we've discussed both live free or die hard when we did our die hard series. And we did the entire underworld franchise. And so, of which he directed, I think, two of the five, and then he was, producing the rest of them. So Len Wiseman in this particular world, I can see why they would say, yeah.
Let's bring Len along because the underworld films are kick ass, female protagonists in a world full of crazy action sequences. Live for your die hard is another crazy John McClane story. It seems like it should fit for Len Wiseman to jump into the this world. But for some reason, it didn't completely work for me.
Pete Wright: I know. I know. And and it's it's really interesting because I think, after the John Wick movies, I think so highly of Chad Stahelski. And knowing that there were three of reportedly, months three months of reshoots with Stahelski uncredited at the helm and Weissman not involved at all. You know, of course, now we're getting what could be dubious reporting and rumors.
But, I mean, that just seems like the production was marred by chaos at the top, and that doesn't lead always to a great final product. Sometimes it does, but not always. And I I wonder what the original Len Weissman cut looked like. And maybe Len Weissman's fantastical violence in Underworld does not translate to John Wick style violence. Maybe that's the issue.
It it didn't feel as sufficient a John Wick style movie as I wanted it to, in spite of some really neat stuff.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. And, you know, it's always tricky when you hear these stories because, yeah, there were stories about several works of reshoots, and Stahelski, two to three months of reshoots, refilming the majority of the movie without Wiseman around. But then they both refute it saying it's just two weeks of additional photography, and Stahelski oversaw it with Wiseman. You hear all these different kind of conflicting reports. And I think to some extent, it's the studio media managing to make sure that everything sounds copacetic and that things are gonna all be okay to get people to come to see the film instead of making it sound like a disaster.
So it's always hard to gauge. And so we're just left kind of looking at what we have, and it makes me wonder, like, is the Keanu Reeves edition one of the things that they decided to do to to reshoot? You know?
Pete Wright: It makes us cynical, I think, for thinking that, but I wonder that too. That this was a move that came because they didn't have faith in the original direction.
Andy Nelson: Although, as I as I look, it looks like Kanner Reeves was one of the early people that had said was gonna be coming back to kind of continue. But who knows? Was he involved in that final fight, or was it just the moment in the in the ballerina school? I don't know.
Pete Wright: You know what I hate so much about it is that I wanted Eve to be a badass. I wanted her to be a complete badass. I wanted her to be sufficient to do the final stuff without aid of John Wick in a sniper nest. Right? And we didn't get that, and that felt so catty.
Right? It was just like like, why? Why did we not get that opportunity to see her ultimately succeed without aid and and pay the price?
Andy Nelson: Well, we but you're making it sound like he contributed a lot more to the aid than than he really did. Like, she does most of the work.
Pete Wright: Contributing at all is my problem.
Andy Nelson: He only kills one person. Right? Isn't there just one moment when someone is coming up and and that's it? Otherwise, I think she's she does prove herself pretty able. So, I mean, I I can see that point.
And, I think it would have been better if they just didn't have him take that shot and just have her figure it out on her own because his whole thing is he's there to assassinate her. Right? That's kind of like the whole thing. Trying to the director hires him to kill her to kind of keep the peace essentially. That's kind of the whole thing.
And so he gives her he you know, they have this meeting in the snow, and he says, look, you can have until midnight. If you don't solve this by then, then I am gonna kill you. And that's essentially what we get with with him aside from some they do have their own little fight and everything. But I I think for the most part, I think that they they largely make it work as far as bringing him in. Like, I didn't struggle with that as a concept.
And in the scope of the story about Eve and her journey to avenge her father and and kind of try to bring down this this group, I thought that it was kind of fun to watch. And I in particular, I guess I enjoyed it so much because, I mean, the the stunt sequences that we have earlier in the film are fine. They're nothing great. But by the time she gets to this little town of Hallstatt, I just really enjoyed everything that they did with all the stunt sequences. Like, it was it was kind of fun to watch this entire town come after her.
And, you know, we have a lot of different fight sequences that that stood out to me. And I I had a great time with it.
Pete Wright: Let's start with because we're in the Alpine, environment. Let's start with the Alpine restaurant duel. This is the plate fight, the legendary plate fight. What this is one of the things that I thought was was really fun and kind of frivolous is having them go after each other with plates. Reportedly, this was one of the hardest fight scenes to film from a production perspective because the breakaway plates kept breakaway breaking away too easily, and they kept re loot running out of plates.
And so it took much longer than anticipated getting all the replacement plates in place to plate one another. I thought that was great. I thought it was fun.
Andy Nelson: It's a fun sequence, and I enjoyed like, that was a moment that really helped give us a sense of what we're about to experience in this place where she shows up and suddenly everybody's eyeing her, and then we learn they're not running out of the place away from the fight. They're going to get ready so they can come back and participate. Like, I enjoyed that. I had a lot of fun. And and this fight, I thought, just gave us a real interesting sense of the introduction to this town.
Pete Wright: Yes. And I I mean, you're absolutely right. They all run away. But one of the nice things about that entire sequence, her introduction to the town, is that around every corner in that chase up and down that mountain hillside, there is another person hanging laundry or something like that who happens to have a gun in their belt. Like, they're all crazy armed, and that level of fun and surprise, I thought, was really well executed.
Andy Nelson: I can't imagine accidentally driving through this town.
Pete Wright: Yeah.
Andy Nelson: Like, being a tourist, like, especially on this particular day to come driving through and, like, what the hell? Where are the police? There's, like, people all over trying to shoot each other.
Pete Wright: While we are talking about cold things, let's go to the completely out of order, the icy club sequence.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. The first real
Pete Wright: Yeah.
Andy Nelson: Job that she's given.
Pete Wright: Right.
Andy Nelson: Which fits very much into the style that we've had with some of these John Wick films of creating this look of these clubs that have fantastic, like, blues and purples and pinks, neon, and just the whole thing glows and creates this this atmosphere that I think is it's almost become kind of a key part of the this franchise of having a scene like that.
Pete Wright: Yeah. For sure. And I think, you you know, this is the one she also is using ice gates as weapons.
Andy Nelson: No. That's later when she's in the little boathouse in Hallstatt.
Pete Wright: You're right. Which was also fantastic. Like, that was a really inventive kind of use. And and I think it does one of the things that Wick does very well is it makes it look hard for the our protagonist to do their job. Like, she was stumbling and sliding around and still able to ultimately do it.
Right? It made her work, and I think that was that was really great. But, yes, you're back to the icicle place. The nightclub itself was really fun, and it was it was the most Wick style. I mean, it was just, like, slick choreography, and it was a a solid, if not slightly predictable, John Wick style fight scene with a lot of good stunts.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. And it wasn't like, you know, the crazy stunts or anything. Like, it was fine. It was it was fun, and we just are essentially watching her kind of complete her mission of protecting this heiress that she's set out to do. And it it plays fine.
Like, it's a it's a beautiful location, and they made it look good, and it worked.
Pete Wright: One of my favorite sort of sequences in a sequence was the grenade fight. What'd you think of that?
Andy Nelson: That was another. Yeah. The grenade fight was fantastic. Like, the whole idea of using those to fight. This was when she goes to the the weapons guy, and and they go into his back room.
And then he's get they're, you know, the cult is coming after them. And so he ends up sneaking into another room. She follows him and is kind of helping her, and fighting with grenades. There was some really inventive moments, like throwing the guy behind the door with a grenade and like a giant freezer door, and then using it to shield herself from the explosion.
Pete Wright: Same thing with the table flip shot. That was extraordinary. Don't know
Andy Nelson: how it's it's interesting. This is a world where as long as there's something between you and the grenade, apparently, it's it's not going to damage the thing between the two of you. And also, the noise is apparently also not going to blow out your eardrums. Like, apparently, like, you're totally fine as long as there's something between you and that grenade.
Pete Wright: Andy, surviving all of that is why she was sent to ballerina school. That's what they learned. It's about all ballerinas are equipped to handle that.
Andy Nelson: How to strengthen your eardrums. Uh-huh.
Pete Wright: Uh-huh. It's pas de deux and how not to blow out your eardrums with a grenade.
Andy Nelson: And a grenade fight.
Pete Wright: And Bloody Totes. Also that. Okay. Love love love that. The Eve John Wick duel.
Andy Nelson: This was something that I was wondering if, you know, was part of the reason that they wanted to do some reshoots because they felt like they wanted to have John Wick in some action. You know, I thought it played fine in the scope of the story. I could buy into it. Sure. He's he's been sent to assassinate her.
He's gonna confront her and have this whole conversation. And and it actually worked for the town sequence too because it allows a breather for everyone in the town to stop attacking her because they're like, oh, hold on. Hold on. Like, they've got the guy in the bell tower or whatever who's like watching and saying, hey, the guy's here. The Baba Yaga has arrived.
We can we can all just chill now because he'll take care of
Pete Wright: our problem. Have a snack.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. So it it was fine. It it does make me wonder as we continue if we continue the sequels in this world, are we going to keep hitting this point where they're like, yeah. But we need to get John in here, and they need to fight at least once.
Pete Wright: Yeah. Is that sustainable? Right. I I wonder. I like the fight because it is this combination of action and sort of mentorship, weirdly.
Like, we've already had that exchange with how with her asking him much earlier in the film, how do I do what you do? And he says, looks like you already are. Yeah. I don't know how he knows that. Like, she really is just dancing and falling on her ass all the time.
But I I like that that mentorship arc. I think that's fun. I find that the this fight itself I don't know. Does it strain credulity as much as all of your quibble questions from earlier? I just felt like if John Wick really wanted to take her out, would have done it much faster.
Andy Nelson: Well, that's yeah. I think that's the thing is, like, I don't think he does because I think he recognizes her as somebody who's like him just looking for resolution to something that, you know, somebody else brought upon him, and and so he wanted his revenge, and and he recognizes that in her, and I think he's hesitant. And so I think, yeah, I I absolutely think that he could have taken her out very easily if he wanted to, but I think that's just, you know, part of his character. Fair. Fair.
Yeah. It's not I I struggled with it, but I enjoyed what they did with it. And I think that's where I landed with it overall. Like, I I think the cult is, like, the dumbest name that they've come up with this in in this entire franchise. I think that they could have done something so much more original than just call it the cult.
Hate it. But I liked this idea. And, I mean, honestly, I I mean, I had fun with the story. Like, I think there are some fun action sequences that made it very easy to watch film. It's the least of this franchise thus far, but I still had fun with it.
Pete Wright: I think the the measure for me is if I'm gonna sit down and watch the John Wick franchise, as I am known to do, will I throw this movie in the continuity? And the answer is absolutely yes. Like, I will. It's it's part of it. It's part of John Wick's story.
It's part of the universal progression. And, yeah, I'm I'm I'll watch it again for sure. Is it but like you said, is it is it great? No. It's not great.
But is it worthy?
Andy Nelson: Sure. Yeah. I think it's I think it's fine.
Pete Wright: Sure. It stands.
Andy Nelson: And I'm curious to see if they continue it.
Pete Wright: Hope they do. I didn't I I still haven't watched the Continental. It got a little bit panned in my social circle of entertainers.
Andy Nelson: Well, Chance Stahelski himself panned it. He was pretty verbose about his opinion on the decisions that they made with that and the fact that he was not really even consulted for any creative opinions or anything. And this just kind of like, they went on and did it, and it is what it is. But he was Did you watch it? I didn't.
Pete Wright: Yeah. I feel like one of us should take that on.
Andy Nelson: Go for it.
Pete Wright: You're not gonna
Andy Nelson: I'm not gonna do it.
Pete Wright: Fight me over it. Please. Will you please fight me over it? Do you know what this didn't. We also didn't mention the flamethrower sequence.
Like, the big finale sequence we didn't talk about.
Andy Nelson: It's absolutely gorgeous. I mean, it was a stunning sequence to watch of just this massive amount of flame shooting at people. Like, I I loved watching the sequence. It was just glorious. And again, just goes to show that they really pushed to to up their game with their different stunt sequences.
Pete Wright: And I was I was just listening to to Smartless. And oh my goodness. It wasn't Stahelski who's the other big time stunt guy that we talk about sometimes. That's gonna hurt my head. Anyway, he was talking about how just the the technological advancement to these old school stunts like falls.
Falls are now done with crazy, you know, wire rigs and deceleration rigs and just being able to jump off a 10 story building and land in a in a mat is an old school skill that some people don't have anymore in the stunt business. Same thing with getting lit on fire. And there is a new gel technology that they use that means you don't have to wear big bulky suits. They can just cover your entire body in this gel. And you still look like the actor, and you can see the actor through the flame, but you can be on fire for longer and do old school practicals with flame and not have to use CG.
And it's it that's what I was thinking about in this movie. It felt like they lit more people on fire than I have seen in a long time.
Andy Nelson: It's interesting because there has been so much evolution in the world of film as we've talked about. I mean, the effects world is constantly finding ways to evolve and improve and and do things so that you don't necessarily need to have like, put actors at risk on sets and things like that, and you can just do some things with CG. But then you have the flip side of that where people want to still see real things happening. And so, yeah, you also are having similar evolutions in the world of stunts. And I think that's exciting because it allows for some incredible creativity when you come down to things like this.
And it's David Leach.
Pete Wright: There you go. That's who I was talking about.
Andy Nelson: Okay. Well, we'll be right back. But first, our credits.
Pete Wright: The next reel is a production of True Story FM, engineering by Andy Nelson, music by Soleil Fleur, Cero Will van DiCromere, Oriole Novella, and Eli Catlin. Andy usually finds all the stats for the awards and numbers at the -numbers.com, boxofficemojo.com, imdb.com, and wikipedia.org. Find the show at truestory.fm. And if your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show. Right.
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Sequels and remakes, Andy. Good lord. I know. What do we have in store?
Andy Nelson: If all of these happen is always the question. Like I said earlier, it's like the Star Wars sequels. It's like, are they ever gonna make half the ones that they've mentioned? Who knows? So far, this is what we've heard about.
There's potentially a Kain film coming, as of yet untitled, but they are theoretically still in talks with that one. There's an untitled anime prequel film that they're talking about. They love the idea of, doing something, in anime with this world, and they thought a prequel would be a great place to go. Of course, we've already heard about John Wick chapter five, which really doesn't make sense since he's, spoiler alert, he's dead as of the end of the last film.
Pete Wright: Not if he comes back a cyborg, Andy. Right.
Andy Nelson: I know. There's always there's always
Pete Wright: another family, the Ruska robots.
Andy Nelson: They've talked about ballerina two. That's the one I'm most curious about if they're actually going to drop it if this one doesn't succeed as well as they want it to. They've talked about a crossover film, several crossover films. One with the world of atomic blonde, the other with the world of nobody.
Pete Wright: Okay. Has there been another any atomic blonde universe movie?
Andy Nelson: No. Just Atomic Blonde. Right?
Pete Wright: No. Just the one, and they should stop. It's great. It's a better movie than this one.
Andy Nelson: Alright. Let me keep going. Yeah. You keep going. They're they've talked about potentially a Sofia film.
You know, this would be I think they really loved the dog work that revolved around her and her dogs in John Luke chapter three, and so they wanted to kind of continue that. They've also mentioned the Bowery King film following his world of kind of like the homeless world of
Pete Wright: Homeless assassins.
Andy Nelson: Homeless assassins. And last but not least is another TV series potentially called John Wick Under the High Table. And I think the idea with this one was that it was going to be a further exploration of where things go with the High Table after the end of John Wick chapter four, as far as, like, the control and who's running things. And I think that was the idea for that one.
Pete Wright: I can see that actually. I could see that being kind of a succession style power broker show.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. I that would exactly be what it would how it would play. And I think that if Stahelski is involved and behind it and kind of involved in kind of the plotting and planning, maybe it would be worth it to watch. You know?
Pete Wright: Yeah. Okay. How is it, let's see, doing in award season? Do we is there anything worth talking about yet?
Andy Nelson: Surprisingly, there already is. It's already had one win with one other nomination at the Golden Trailer Awards. This just happened. I'm not exactly sure when their window of time was, but it crossed over enough where their trailer was nominated for best action trailer. And it won best action trailer, and then it was also nominated for best summer twenty twenty five blockbuster trailer, but it didn't win that one.
It lost that one to, mission impossible to final reckoning. So sure. Okay. I guess I can see that one. And then Ananda Armas has already been nominated in there's a new award that I didn't realize.
We've heard of the Critics Choice Awards.
Pete Wright: Of course.
Andy Nelson: Well, apparently, they were jealous of the Saturn Awards getting all the the buzz for all of their great praise that they were doing for genre films. Well, the Critics Choice now have what is called the Critics Choice Super Awards, which is it because of superhero films? I don't know. It's the really the stupidest stupidest name. Anyway Oh, dear.
They've announced nominees. The actual awards haven't happened yet. So right now, Ananda Armas is nominated in the best actress in an action movie category along with Anya Taylor Joy for Furiosa, Mad Max saga, Kayleen Spaney in civil war, Kirsten Dunst in civil war, June Squibb in Thelma. I love that she's in there. Yeah.
And Emily Blunt in the fall guy. So Interesting. We we'll see what ends up happening with that one. The the nominees were just announced June 11, so I don't know when the awards are.
Pete Wright: Fascinating. Yeah. Okay. Well, here's where we talk about numbers that I imagine we probably don't know enough about yet.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. Well, Wiseman had 90,000,000 to make his addition to the WikiVerse. It's been a while since we covered this series, but as a refresher, the first one cost 30,000,000, the second and third, 40,000,000 each, and the fourth one cost 90,000,000 just like this one. Was that a risky budget for the first film of the franchise to not feast feature John Wick as the lead? It remains to be seen as it's still in theaters.
The movie opened June 6 opposite Dan to Dan, evil eye, dangerous animals, the ritual, I don't understand you, and the limited release of the life of Chuck. The movie opened in second place, unable to dethrone the Lilo and Stitch live action remake, but pulling ahead of mission possible eight. So now we are recording this on Friday, 07/27/2025 as we like to keep our July clear to rest a bit. So as of today, the movie's earnings is just under 53,000,000 domestically and just over 53,000,000 internationally for a total gross of just over 106,000,000. Right now, that puts it with an adjusted profit per finished minute of a 130,000.
So it looks like it's barely breaking even. But having already dropped from second to now fifth place after its first week and taking into account all the prints and advertising advertising costs that we rarely get access to. This is looking like it's gonna be the weakest entry in the franchise. I guess we'll see if John Wick fares any better. Who knows?
But this might actually convince the studio there's no financially viable way forward unless John Wick is the protagonist. Protagonist. So So we'll we'll see see how how things things go. Go.
Pete Wright: Is there a rough way to guess prints and advertising costs based on production costs of the film?
Andy Nelson: Sometimes they say, you know, you know, half it, and it's that much. Sometimes they say double it. It's all over the place as far as what it can be. With big budget movies in particular, they say it could be as big as the budget for the film was. So, I mean, it could be another it could be a 180,000,000 total that they're looking to even break even.
Pete Wright: That's what I'm I'm wondering. And I'm wondering it it we're at an interesting time because, again, as we record this, f one just came out, and that is reportedly a very expensive movie on the production side. And if you have been awake in the last three weeks, you realize just how expensive this movie has been on the P and A side. They have put a massive amount of money into advertising this thing in domestic and in in TV and digital ads, in the haptic trailer that you can watch on your iPhone, in social media, in trailers, in putting you know? I mean, it's just been an extraordinary tour of expenditures for that movie.
I'm really curious if it's if it there's even an orbit that it could hit to make that movie. So we'll talk about that coming soon.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, I had fun with this one. It's it fits, you know, roughly into this universe for me. It made me ask a lot more questions than I should have been asking when I watch a movie like this. And so that's frustrating, but I still had fun.
And I guess that's where I landed with it.
Pete Wright: Me too. I'm right there with you. I I had a good time in spite of a pretty significant quibble, and it makes this for me, oof. Lowest of the low, but still good.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. Alright. Well, we'll be right back for our ratings. But first, here's the trailer for next week's movie. Continuing our celebration of films released the last hundred years, we're jumping back twenty five years to the year 2000 to kick off our Silver Screams twenty five years of Ju On series, starting with Ju On, the curse.
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Pete Wright: Letterboxd, Andrew. Letterboxd.com/thenextreel. That's where you can find our HQ page, and this is where we assign stars and hearts that have been meticulously accounted for across the arc of our lives in measuring, rating, and reviewing film. And as we know, there are a limited number of stars, and you have to say where you're taking stars away to write this movie. It's still carrying on.
What are you gonna do with it, Andy?
Andy Nelson: I'm gonna give it three stars. Three stars in a heart. I had fun with it. You know, it's it's an enjoyable film. It's got some parts that, you know, I struggle with, but it's still gonna be an easy one to revisit.
So three stars in a heart feels appropriate.
Pete Wright: It's exactly where I am too. Exactly where I am. Those two stars, they fall from the script, but, everything else was solid. I had a good time.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. Well, that averages out to three stars in a heart over at our account on Letterbox at the next reel. You can find me there at soda creek film, and you can find Pete there at Pete Wright. So what did you think about ballerina? We would love to hear your thoughts.
Hop into the ShowTalk channel over in our Discord community where we will be talking about the movie this week.
Pete Wright: When the movie ends
Andy Nelson: Our conversation begins.
Pete Wright: Letterbox get it, Andrew.
Andy Nelson: As letterboxed always doeth.
Pete Wright: Alright. What are you gonna do? How'd you pick? Got some very fresh ones.
Andy Nelson: Well, yeah. I I mean, considering it's only been out for two weeks, there's they're all pretty fresh. Went with a three star by Bobby Wagner right up the line where I was, and who said, sometimes you just have to watch a beautiful woman shoot people in the head for two hours.
Pete Wright: Alright. You took mine. That was good. That was it. That was a steal.
In this case, I will say this from David Chen with a four star in a heart. Ballerina's plot and characters are threadbare even by John Wick standards, and that's saying something. But the action is just unbelievable. This movie is two hours long, and I estimate about eighty minutes of that is straight, uncut, late stage, John Wick style level of quality action. There are some really innovative action ideas, especially involving military hardware.
At one point, after a particularly audacious sequence, a guy behind me exclaimed, that is absolute cinema. Indeed, sir. It was. So I mean, that's like it's poetry. Yeah.
It's John Wick poetry. That's what that was.
Andy Nelson: Exactly. That's all
Pete Wright: I have to say. Thanks, Letterboxd.