WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.210 --> 00:00:02.110 Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World. 00:00:02.140 --> 00:00:05.260 I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times best selling 00:00:05.280 --> 00:00:08.330 author of The Horse Boy, The Long Ride Home, and The Healing Land. 00:00:08.379 --> 00:00:11.889 Before I jump in with today's guest, I just want to say a huge 00:00:12.000 --> 00:00:15.139 thank you to you, our audience, for helping to make this happen. 00:00:15.229 --> 00:00:15.999 I have a request. 00:00:16.520 --> 00:00:22.009 If you like what we do, please like, subscribe, tell a friend. 00:00:22.579 --> 00:00:24.319 It really helps us get this work done. 00:00:24.529 --> 00:00:27.299 As you might know from my books, I'm an autism dad. 00:00:27.805 --> 00:00:30.645 And over the last 20 years, we've developed several 00:00:31.345 --> 00:00:35.285 equine assisted, neuroscience backed certification programs. 00:00:35.884 --> 00:00:38.485 If you'd like to find out more about them, go to newtrailslearning. 00:00:40.664 --> 00:00:40.814 com. 00:00:41.065 --> 00:00:43.665 So without further ado, let's meet today's guest. 00:00:47.904 --> 00:00:48.349 Welcome back. 00:00:48.409 --> 00:00:52.599 I'm here with the amazing Chrissy McDonald and Mark Rashid. 00:00:52.699 --> 00:00:58.099 Those of you who listened to our previous podcast know that we ended 00:00:58.199 --> 00:01:02.879 with talking about really how to achieve softness and softness being 00:01:02.879 --> 00:01:05.489 something that isn't just physical. 00:01:05.519 --> 00:01:07.320 Of course that comes from within. 00:01:08.410 --> 00:01:12.700 Mark was talking at some length about his relationship with 00:01:12.700 --> 00:01:16.930 Aikido, for example, and music this way, not just with horsemanship. 00:01:17.590 --> 00:01:19.900 Chrissy echoing many of these intimate 00:01:22.570 --> 00:01:23.620 at the same time. 00:01:24.040 --> 00:01:28.570 I became anxious and I thought, well, if I'm becoming anxious, probably 00:01:28.570 --> 00:01:29.625 other people are anxious too. 00:01:29.680 --> 00:01:33.220 And the anxiety was, what if I'm not soft enough? 00:01:34.360 --> 00:01:37.240 And now we've gotta be soft? 00:01:37.270 --> 00:01:39.430 Oh, now we've gotta be soft. 00:01:39.820 --> 00:01:40.870 What if I'm not soft? 00:01:41.260 --> 00:01:48.759 Ah, you know, and it brought to mind, I think we live in a particularly 00:01:48.820 --> 00:01:56.470 anxious society where in some ways things have never been better, and 00:01:56.470 --> 00:02:02.860 in some ways there's never been so much to cause us to feel anxious and. 00:02:03.955 --> 00:02:11.515 We've never taken, I think this idea of fairness and ethics to heart, 00:02:12.235 --> 00:02:15.625 particularly in the horse community, in the way that we have now, it's, it's 00:02:15.625 --> 00:02:18.325 definitely, I think, unprecedented really. 00:02:19.315 --> 00:02:22.405 And at the same time, and that's good and at the same time, it can 00:02:22.405 --> 00:02:26.485 cause one to feel anxious, of course, that one's not living up to this. 00:02:26.485 --> 00:02:29.525 And, you know, should we do anything at all? 00:02:29.525 --> 00:02:31.115 Should we even go near a horse? 00:02:31.115 --> 00:02:35.195 Should we even put our fingertips on a horse, let alone our butts? 00:02:35.195 --> 00:02:35.555 You know? 00:02:35.945 --> 00:02:38.855 And should we put anything in their mouths, let alone, you know, 00:02:39.035 --> 00:02:40.475 anything on their noses or anything. 00:02:40.475 --> 00:02:41.105 Or anything or anything. 00:02:41.825 --> 00:02:48.575 And that spiral of anxiety, of course is not soft, but 00:02:48.575 --> 00:02:49.415 we're in pursuit of softness. 00:02:49.415 --> 00:02:50.555 So there's a paradox there. 00:02:50.765 --> 00:02:52.645 And I'd like to explore that paradox. 00:02:52.645 --> 00:02:56.635 'cause I think we're all, to some degree battling with this, 00:02:56.635 --> 00:02:58.465 or at least dancing with this. 00:02:59.075 --> 00:03:05.045 And when we have people like Chrissy and Mark who have good, incredible 00:03:05.045 --> 00:03:08.125 things to say on these things, I think it's worth bringing this up. 00:03:08.155 --> 00:03:12.864 'cause I do think it's a, it, it's a concern not just for horsemen, but for 00:03:12.895 --> 00:03:16.405 people who are running programs at equine assisted programs, that sort of thing. 00:03:16.405 --> 00:03:20.035 We, we want to, we want not just our horses, but the people 00:03:20.035 --> 00:03:21.295 we're serving to have agency. 00:03:22.195 --> 00:03:25.495 And at the same time, this can cause anxiety where we end up 00:03:25.495 --> 00:03:26.695 trying to control that anxiety. 00:03:26.695 --> 00:03:29.005 And so what do we do about that? 00:03:30.085 --> 00:03:31.225 What do we do about that guys? 00:03:33.625 --> 00:03:35.005 Mark Rashid: Well, I'll jump in. 00:03:37.015 --> 00:03:43.345 Basically, the idea for, for us, when we talk to folks is 00:03:45.595 --> 00:03:53.125 oftentimes, especially when we're working with horses and with people, is that the 00:03:53.125 --> 00:03:58.615 idea is to be as soft as you can be, which may not be as soft as you want to be. 00:04:00.595 --> 00:04:05.875 And you know, as, for instance, on a scale from zero to 10, with zero 00:04:05.875 --> 00:04:11.635 being no pressure, you know, as soft as I wanna be is maybe a 0.5. 00:04:12.954 --> 00:04:19.765 But given the circumstances of the day and the situation that I'm in, I might 00:04:19.765 --> 00:04:26.245 have to go to a seven, but that's as soft as I can be on that day, in that 00:04:26.245 --> 00:04:35.095 situation, the key to that is that we don't bring emotion into the situation. 00:04:35.095 --> 00:04:37.165 We're just dealing with what's in front of us. 00:04:38.185 --> 00:04:42.055 Without making up stories around what we're, what we're dealing with or what's 00:04:42.055 --> 00:04:44.875 going on, just deal with the situation. 00:04:45.805 --> 00:04:50.875 And then with, if you can, I mean, working on internal softness 00:04:50.875 --> 00:04:55.705 is, is really important I think, and we can talk about that too. 00:04:55.735 --> 00:05:03.955 But, but a big part of it for me is being able to control self, having self-control. 00:05:05.125 --> 00:05:09.955 And I think that's where, where we get into trouble sometimes is that we we're 00:05:09.955 --> 00:05:16.945 trying to be soft, but maybe things are escalating and, and now I am, I'm at a 00:05:16.945 --> 00:05:20.755 seven and I'm outta control emotionally. 00:05:21.305 --> 00:05:25.385 I'm angry or I'm scared, or, or whatever. 00:05:26.255 --> 00:05:33.425 And, and it's difficult for situations like that to come back into control. 00:05:34.715 --> 00:05:41.854 So for me, it's not so much about being, you know, we talk about being soft. 00:05:42.425 --> 00:05:45.905 The goal might be to be at a 0.5 00:05:46.565 --> 00:05:48.034 in everything that I do. 00:05:48.905 --> 00:05:53.675 And I also have to understand that there may be times where I may have 00:05:53.675 --> 00:06:01.145 to, because of the situation, I may have to bring that level up. 00:06:02.315 --> 00:06:08.659 And so that's, you know, that's kind of the way that I would, I would, that's a, 00:06:08.765 --> 00:06:10.955 I mean, for, to start the conversation. 00:06:11.405 --> 00:06:15.364 That's, that's what I would, that's what I would offer. 00:06:15.935 --> 00:06:18.145 Rupert Isaacson: That's it is quite intriguing to have a scale 00:06:18.145 --> 00:06:19.195 that one could put a number to. 00:06:19.195 --> 00:06:21.474 Is that an Aikido thing or is that something that you've just 00:06:21.474 --> 00:06:22.554 come up with instinctively? 00:06:22.554 --> 00:06:22.614 I. 00:06:23.434 --> 00:06:26.234 Mark Rashid: I've pretty much come up with that just in our 00:06:26.234 --> 00:06:29.984 teaching with horses and riders. 00:06:30.314 --> 00:06:30.374 Mm. 00:06:30.614 --> 00:06:37.524 Just so that we have some language and an idea to, you know, if we're using a scale 00:06:37.524 --> 00:06:43.854 of pressure, for instance, on the reins with a rider, I can maybe get on one end 00:06:43.854 --> 00:06:47.094 of the reins and the hor and the rider be on the other while they're on the horse. 00:06:48.414 --> 00:06:56.754 And I could say, well, could you show me what a, what a one feels like to you? 00:06:57.354 --> 00:07:01.794 And, and then on, you know, feeling what they do in the range. 00:07:01.794 --> 00:07:05.604 I can say, well, that actually feels like about a three to me. 00:07:06.624 --> 00:07:12.234 Let me show you what a, what a one feels like to me so that we can, we have a 00:07:12.234 --> 00:07:17.634 jumping off point and so we, we can be speaking the same language instead of, 00:07:18.324 --> 00:07:27.464 instead of some arbitrary, you know, speak that, you know, we, I may understand as 00:07:27.464 --> 00:07:30.854 one thing and the rider might understand as something completely different. 00:07:31.544 --> 00:07:34.844 So it's just a, just a way for us to kind of get on the same page 00:07:35.904 --> 00:07:37.284 and have a jumping off point. 00:07:39.024 --> 00:07:42.294 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, that's helpful, Chrissy. 00:07:43.734 --> 00:07:46.404 Softness and the anxieties around it. 00:07:46.409 --> 00:07:46.499 Yes, 00:07:47.529 --> 00:07:47.749 Crissi McDonald: yes. 00:07:48.879 --> 00:07:53.059 So the first thing I thought about was because we're talking about softness 00:07:53.059 --> 00:07:59.299 as an internal state, and we're talking about the paradox of also being anxious 00:07:59.689 --> 00:08:02.119 and having that be an in internal state. 00:08:03.199 --> 00:08:08.089 I completely agree with you that I think these times and our cultures 00:08:08.629 --> 00:08:14.989 have a lot of anxiety right now, so it's really easy just to be anxious and 00:08:14.989 --> 00:08:19.699 it takes practice to not live there. 00:08:21.169 --> 00:08:26.149 One of the things I like to talk about is anytime we have something going on 00:08:26.149 --> 00:08:28.489 inside of us, it's like a speed bump. 00:08:29.269 --> 00:08:33.739 So I get up in the morning and I look at my email and there's someone 00:08:33.739 --> 00:08:36.619 who's mad that's a bump, right? 00:08:37.069 --> 00:08:40.639 And then I come out and I check on the dogs. 00:08:40.639 --> 00:08:42.289 Maybe one of my dogs isn't doing good. 00:08:42.349 --> 00:08:42.949 That's a bump. 00:08:43.909 --> 00:08:49.159 And then I looked at my texts and then I look at social media and then, you know, 00:08:49.159 --> 00:08:52.309 you can see how this starts to snowball. 00:08:52.549 --> 00:08:52.759 Yeah. 00:08:52.789 --> 00:08:52.909 And 00:08:52.909 --> 00:08:57.649 Crissi McDonald: so by the time I get to my horse, I've maybe driven in traffic. 00:08:58.249 --> 00:09:00.109 I have dealt with other drivers. 00:09:00.349 --> 00:09:03.739 Maybe I listen to the news, which isn't that great right now. 00:09:04.219 --> 00:09:07.729 Maybe I've seen an animal on the side of the road that got hit by a car. 00:09:07.729 --> 00:09:09.859 I mean, it, it's just that this is life, right? 00:09:09.859 --> 00:09:10.519 It's messy. 00:09:11.029 --> 00:09:12.859 And so by the time we get to our horse. 00:09:13.174 --> 00:09:15.514 We're not traveling along a smooth road anymore. 00:09:15.874 --> 00:09:19.954 We are constantly going over these speed bumps internally. 00:09:21.124 --> 00:09:28.384 So I think the practices is when you, when tho when that information, when life 00:09:28.384 --> 00:09:34.894 hands you these things, is to be able to be aware of it, recognize it, and then 00:09:34.894 --> 00:09:38.404 try to get yourself back into homeostasis. 00:09:39.214 --> 00:09:44.614 So meaning you're not too, you're not in a panic attack, but you're 00:09:44.614 --> 00:09:46.414 also not almost falling asleep. 00:09:46.414 --> 00:09:46.685 Right? 00:09:46.685 --> 00:09:51.274 Your nervous system, from what I understand, I'm not a therapist, but what 00:09:51.274 --> 00:09:54.874 we're learning from a friend of ours is your nervous system is meant to do this. 00:09:55.654 --> 00:09:55.954 Right? 00:09:56.614 --> 00:10:01.024 We don't, I was under the misconception that I always had to be parasympathetic. 00:10:01.024 --> 00:10:02.464 I always had to be calm. 00:10:03.304 --> 00:10:07.714 And anytime I felt a blip of anxiety that was bad and I had 00:10:07.714 --> 00:10:09.479 to do something to take it away. 00:10:10.099 --> 00:10:12.034 And that's really not a complete picture. 00:10:12.774 --> 00:10:17.185 So I'm learning more about the nervous system states, but before I started 00:10:17.185 --> 00:10:20.904 learning about this, every, I would think about the inside of me as as 00:10:20.904 --> 00:10:25.224 how many speed bumps have I gone over before I got to my horse, and 00:10:25.464 --> 00:10:27.564 how can I smooth that road back out? 00:10:27.564 --> 00:10:31.314 Because every time we have a speed bump, that's a, the horse 00:10:31.314 --> 00:10:33.324 is trying to communicate right? 00:10:33.984 --> 00:10:35.274 And it can't get over that. 00:10:36.685 --> 00:10:40.104 So it hits this, this is my feeling, this is. 00:10:40.974 --> 00:10:42.354 Is a feeling I have. 00:10:43.014 --> 00:10:44.364 We're working with our horses. 00:10:44.994 --> 00:10:51.654 We're maybe in a certain state, but we're so tight internally, maybe 00:10:51.654 --> 00:10:54.294 we're trying to be soft and we just can't be soft and oh my God. 00:10:54.294 --> 00:10:56.964 Now I'm not soft in my, I'm torturing my horse, right? 00:10:58.014 --> 00:11:01.074 Rupert Isaacson: I'm torturing myself with this or torturing die for softness. 00:11:01.074 --> 00:11:01.404 Yeah. 00:11:01.614 --> 00:11:02.154 Crissi McDonald: Yeah. 00:11:02.154 --> 00:11:05.574 But if we could take a breath and just let all of that go. 00:11:06.804 --> 00:11:10.464 Just, just, we don't have to let it go in the sense of, I'm never gonna think 00:11:10.464 --> 00:11:16.584 about it again, but can I just set that aside for 20 minutes and be with my horse? 00:11:17.634 --> 00:11:20.064 You know, I'm not ignoring it, I'm not bearing it. 00:11:20.724 --> 00:11:26.634 But can we kind of let that pass through us instead of sticking inside? 00:11:27.294 --> 00:11:32.514 Can I let that information pass through me instead of getting stuck? 00:11:34.614 --> 00:11:36.504 Rupert Isaacson: Now, let's say you 00:11:39.204 --> 00:11:42.204 have a mechanism, and let's say it's breathing for that. 00:11:42.414 --> 00:11:47.084 And you arrive at the place where you keep your horse because not everyone is 00:11:47.084 --> 00:11:48.704 lucky enough to keep their horses at home. 00:11:50.024 --> 00:11:57.614 And then you come in and perhaps you see a face that causes you some 00:11:57.614 --> 00:12:02.204 anxiety or someone enters the arena that causes you some anxiety, perhaps. 00:12:02.284 --> 00:12:04.834 Your horse is living in a box. 00:12:05.449 --> 00:12:10.819 And has been stood there for a long time and is full of energy to be 00:12:10.819 --> 00:12:16.789 expressed and can't be soft because just can't be soft at that moment. 00:12:17.809 --> 00:12:21.259 So one's own desire for softness, of course, is unable to be met 00:12:22.189 --> 00:12:24.169 by the horse in that moment. 00:12:25.369 --> 00:12:31.399 And now I'm anxious about that and I'm anxious about these other people and 00:12:31.399 --> 00:12:34.819 I'm anxious about, and I'm anxious about 00:12:38.149 --> 00:12:42.829 breathing will certainly help me, but I suspect it probably 00:12:42.829 --> 00:12:46.699 won't get me fully there. 00:12:47.239 --> 00:12:52.969 When we are dealing with all these imperfect situations, we are assuming 00:12:52.969 --> 00:12:58.489 that not everyone is living on their own private ranch in the Rockies 00:12:58.489 --> 00:13:00.049 backing onto a national forest. 00:13:00.889 --> 00:13:02.479 What are some really practical things? 00:13:02.479 --> 00:13:05.180 Breathing for sure is one, but what are some really practical things we can 00:13:05.180 --> 00:13:08.989 do to try and access that softness and particularly when the horse is not meeting 00:13:08.989 --> 00:13:11.540 us with softness and can't in that moment? 00:13:13.910 --> 00:13:17.509 Crissi McDonald: Well, I'll throw in my 2 cents, then we'll go to Mark. 00:13:18.739 --> 00:13:22.430 I, I find a really helpful thing to do, especially if a horse is coming out of 00:13:22.430 --> 00:13:28.069 a stall, is instead of having an agenda, I am gonna do these five things today. 00:13:29.199 --> 00:13:31.804 As we bring the horse out of the stall and see what the horse needs 00:13:31.864 --> 00:13:33.874 that may be to go for a walk. 00:13:33.994 --> 00:13:34.294 Mm-hmm. 00:13:34.534 --> 00:13:36.244 It may need if there's turnout. 00:13:36.724 --> 00:13:36.874 Mm-hmm. 00:13:37.384 --> 00:13:41.165 Crissi McDonald: It, part of softness is also awareness. 00:13:41.254 --> 00:13:46.895 So we look at our horse and we say, okay, this, you know, whatever the situation 00:13:46.895 --> 00:13:48.905 is, this is where my horse is right now. 00:13:49.655 --> 00:13:49.805 Mm-hmm. 00:13:49.805 --> 00:13:54.574 How about we, I'm a big fan of doing what you can do, not doing what you can't. 00:13:54.574 --> 00:13:55.954 Mm-hmm. 00:13:55.960 --> 00:13:56.349 That's good. 00:13:56.349 --> 00:13:56.614 And I got 00:13:56.614 --> 00:13:57.754 Crissi McDonald: that from a certain guy. 00:13:59.405 --> 00:14:04.235 So what can we do on a day when a horse is much bigger than we would, you know, 00:14:04.295 --> 00:14:10.055 we look at 'em and we think, I'm not ready to ride that, but what can we do? 00:14:10.085 --> 00:14:14.885 We can go for a walk, we can lunge, we can find a round pen and explore some things. 00:14:15.245 --> 00:14:18.725 We can turn out and let our horse great. 00:14:18.755 --> 00:14:22.865 I mean, there's, so we get so focused on what we can't do. 00:14:22.865 --> 00:14:26.555 I think, I think that's a survival bias or something Steve would know, 00:14:27.365 --> 00:14:32.645 but we get so focused on what we can't do that we lose sight of what we can. 00:14:32.645 --> 00:14:32.735 Mm-hmm. 00:14:33.095 --> 00:14:34.865 And there's always something we can do. 00:14:34.865 --> 00:14:39.845 Or I mean, even, even if we just spend an hour walking our horse around the property 00:14:40.204 --> 00:14:46.625 and the horse ends up feeling softer, less worried, that's, that's a good day. 00:14:46.685 --> 00:14:49.235 That's quality over quantity. 00:14:49.240 --> 00:14:49.640 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:14:50.350 --> 00:14:50.700 Crissi McDonald: Right. 00:14:51.310 --> 00:14:52.319 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I agree. 00:14:52.444 --> 00:14:53.825 Crissi McDonald: That's, that's my thought, 00:14:55.505 --> 00:14:55.685 Rupert Isaacson: mark. 00:14:58.220 --> 00:15:02.180 Mark Rashid: Well that's, I, I think the, the question really needs to be 00:15:05.210 --> 00:15:09.620 how do I get into a state where that those things don't bother me so much? 00:15:11.810 --> 00:15:17.180 And you know, for me, I, I, I try to live my life in a certain way to where, 00:15:19.939 --> 00:15:22.550 to where I don't get anxious very often. 00:15:23.839 --> 00:15:30.020 That doesn't say that I don't, but I, it doesn't happen very often and 00:15:30.020 --> 00:15:34.665 most of the time it's just one of my practices is to look at things for 00:15:34.665 --> 00:15:40.905 what they are and not worry so much about building stories around things. 00:15:42.045 --> 00:15:51.015 And, and, you know, that's, for me, that's been a really important step 00:15:51.045 --> 00:15:59.535 in not just horsemanship, but life in general, so that not everything has 00:15:59.535 --> 00:16:03.345 the same level of importance, you know? 00:16:03.375 --> 00:16:06.705 So, forgetting the milk at the grocery store. 00:16:07.290 --> 00:16:11.430 For a lot of folks has the same importance as getting into a fender bender in 00:16:11.430 --> 00:16:13.290 the parking lot of the grocery store. 00:16:14.010 --> 00:16:17.850 You know, or, you know, it's, it's unbalanced. 00:16:17.850 --> 00:16:20.340 It's an, for me it's an unbalanced way of being. 00:16:20.580 --> 00:16:20.910 Hmm. 00:16:21.360 --> 00:16:22.530 And going through the day. 00:16:22.530 --> 00:16:29.820 So, you know, being able to see things for what they are instead of, you 00:16:29.820 --> 00:16:32.340 know, taking everything so seriously. 00:16:32.910 --> 00:16:35.370 There are some things that need to be taken seriously, but you can 00:16:35.370 --> 00:16:45.390 still do that in, in a calm state of mind from, from an internal. 00:16:46.290 --> 00:16:52.080 So for me, the, the, it starts with how are we living our life? 00:16:53.460 --> 00:16:58.890 Because, you know, you made a really good point in that we basically 00:16:58.890 --> 00:17:01.050 live in a low level state of panic. 00:17:01.740 --> 00:17:02.010 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:17:02.285 --> 00:17:03.625 Mark Rashid: You know, I'd say that's true 00:17:03.780 --> 00:17:05.130 Rupert Isaacson: for most people and 00:17:05.220 --> 00:17:08.220 Mark Rashid: be, and that's, we allow that, that's a choice we make. 00:17:09.480 --> 00:17:10.409 So, yeah. 00:17:10.409 --> 00:17:15.389 I mean, the world is what the world is and our, you know, it's like, 00:17:16.949 --> 00:17:22.139 like Chrissy mentioned, you know, the news, watching the news, well, there's 00:17:22.139 --> 00:17:23.909 nothing I can do about any of that. 00:17:25.290 --> 00:17:29.280 You know, I, I can't, there, I have no influence on any of that. 00:17:29.580 --> 00:17:29.820 Yeah. 00:17:30.420 --> 00:17:31.020 At all. 00:17:31.710 --> 00:17:36.420 And so, you know, I can't let it bother me too much. 00:17:36.420 --> 00:17:36.480 I. 00:17:37.755 --> 00:17:40.815 You know, I have, I have influence in the, in the three foot 00:17:40.815 --> 00:17:43.005 space around me more or less. 00:17:43.695 --> 00:17:46.395 And so I feel like that's a good place to start. 00:17:46.875 --> 00:17:48.764 Rupert Isaacson: That's stoic philosophy basically. 00:17:50.415 --> 00:17:50.685 Mark Rashid: Hmm. 00:17:51.674 --> 00:17:54.225 Rupert Isaacson: Which interestingly they say was started by a man called 00:17:54.645 --> 00:17:55.695 Han who happened to be a horseman. 00:17:56.534 --> 00:17:56.804 Hmm. 00:17:57.554 --> 00:18:00.855 Rupert Isaacson: And a student of Socrates and the best mate of Plato. 00:18:01.784 --> 00:18:02.745 And also a mercenary. 00:18:05.505 --> 00:18:05.804 Just, 00:18:06.375 --> 00:18:10.725 Mark Rashid: you know, it's funny, it's funny because, you know, in 00:18:10.725 --> 00:18:16.634 the dojo we spend a lot of time, in fact I'm, I'm doing a an upper belt 00:18:16.634 --> 00:18:19.814 class that, that meets once a month. 00:18:20.384 --> 00:18:27.495 And in that class, what we are working on is being able to stay in a calm state 00:18:27.495 --> 00:18:32.084 of mind, regardless of the situation, regardless of the type of attack that's 00:18:32.084 --> 00:18:38.264 coming, regardless of the weapon that the person is holding, regardless of, of 00:18:38.264 --> 00:18:40.695 how many people are, are surrounding you. 00:18:41.594 --> 00:18:48.434 And again, it's a practice and we just don't practice those things 00:18:48.434 --> 00:18:50.264 and we get good at what we practice. 00:18:51.074 --> 00:18:57.764 And so if we practice being in a, in a worried state of mind all the 00:18:57.764 --> 00:19:02.804 time, this low level state of panic, then we're gonna get good at that. 00:19:04.565 --> 00:19:11.475 And if we choose not to do that and we choose to practice something else, then 00:19:11.805 --> 00:19:14.325 you know, then we'll get good at that. 00:19:15.435 --> 00:19:15.764 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:19:16.274 --> 00:19:20.585 I mean, I think many of us grow up being trained to be anxious. 00:19:20.585 --> 00:19:21.245 Mm-hmm. 00:19:21.335 --> 00:19:23.525 Rupert Isaacson: Because, yeah, that makes us controllable. 00:19:24.455 --> 00:19:28.865 If you're anxious about your grades, if you're anxious about not getting punished, 00:19:28.865 --> 00:19:36.635 if you're anxious about going to hell, then you could be manipulated quite well. 00:19:36.695 --> 00:19:42.215 And of course, I think many of us did grow up to some degree that way. 00:19:42.995 --> 00:19:49.414 So the unlearning of that is tricky, particularly when you are being bombarded 00:19:49.414 --> 00:19:55.745 with anxiety in, you know, amygdala triggering media that deliberately is 00:19:55.745 --> 00:19:59.495 there to trigger you because it makes you keep watching and keep clicking. 00:19:59.594 --> 00:20:05.084 And of course, what could be a better partner to help us with that than a horse. 00:20:05.865 --> 00:20:07.754 But we found, I, I, here's an interesting thing. 00:20:07.754 --> 00:20:13.050 When I moved to Germany back in 2018 it was the first time that 00:20:13.050 --> 00:20:14.370 I had not kept my horses at home. 00:20:15.210 --> 00:20:21.660 And because I arrived with six horses and I didn't want to kind of, and I 00:20:21.660 --> 00:20:23.730 couldn't just like arrive and buy a farm. 00:20:24.344 --> 00:20:27.074 And I had to wind things up in Texas and so on. 00:20:27.074 --> 00:20:27.885 That takes, took a while. 00:20:27.885 --> 00:20:31.544 And anyway, it was would've been, you know, a massive schlep. 00:20:31.784 --> 00:20:34.485 So I thought, well, let's just keep, let's just downsize, let's just keep 00:20:34.485 --> 00:20:38.084 the horses, you know, at a boarding barn for a while while we find 00:20:38.084 --> 00:20:40.155 our feet and look around and Yeah. 00:20:40.185 --> 00:20:41.594 You know, be less stressful. 00:20:41.594 --> 00:20:43.995 And so you got there, you gotta look around. 00:20:43.995 --> 00:20:45.284 And so, okay, well where do I go? 00:20:45.284 --> 00:20:48.375 Where I can arrive with six now? 00:20:48.375 --> 00:20:50.324 I don't wanna spread 'em out all over the countryside. 00:20:50.324 --> 00:20:50.715 That's, yeah. 00:20:51.915 --> 00:20:53.235 So that narrowed the choices. 00:20:53.294 --> 00:20:57.486 And then we ended up at a place and not too far away and dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. 00:20:57.905 --> 00:20:59.825 So that narrowed the choices again. 00:20:59.825 --> 00:21:03.905 And then we ended up at a place where, well, they're gonna live in boxes. 00:21:04.715 --> 00:21:10.445 And when I was a kid growing up, our horses at home, we did 00:21:10.445 --> 00:21:11.585 have 'em in boxes overnight. 00:21:11.645 --> 00:21:15.965 In the winter you'd bring them in, 'cause the weather's pretty rough in that part 00:21:15.965 --> 00:21:19.175 of England and I, but you'd let 'em out again in the morning right away. 00:21:19.265 --> 00:21:22.055 And these were horses that were in either high competition work 00:21:22.055 --> 00:21:23.375 or hunting horses or whatever. 00:21:23.375 --> 00:21:26.855 So it's not like they were not clipped and not doing, but they were clipped. 00:21:26.855 --> 00:21:29.015 But you put rugs on them, you kicked 'em out for the whole day. 00:21:29.315 --> 00:21:30.665 You brought 'em back and it's just what you did. 00:21:31.355 --> 00:21:34.265 And then I was like, oh, well no, we can't do that here. 00:21:34.685 --> 00:21:36.905 Even though there's all these fields, because the German 00:21:36.905 --> 00:21:38.375 farmers don't like muddy fields. 00:21:38.375 --> 00:21:39.425 They don't like to see the mud. 00:21:39.785 --> 00:21:44.525 Like, oh, oh, that's old coming from the uk because we like assume 00:21:44.525 --> 00:21:45.815 everything's gonna be a mud bath. 00:21:46.145 --> 00:21:46.595 Alright. 00:21:46.625 --> 00:21:47.165 Okay. 00:21:47.885 --> 00:21:49.205 And then I rose, wow. 00:21:49.265 --> 00:21:52.985 My horses are not gonna get out in the winter. 00:21:53.675 --> 00:21:56.495 Like, yeah, they have like a place they put 'em where they can 00:21:56.495 --> 00:21:57.815 stand around for a couple hours. 00:21:58.505 --> 00:21:59.285 It's not the same, right? 00:22:00.245 --> 00:22:04.655 And these horses have to now give wellbeing to these autistic kids 00:22:04.655 --> 00:22:06.125 who are coming and so on and so on. 00:22:06.125 --> 00:22:09.395 And they're just gonna be standing there going stir crazy. 00:22:09.755 --> 00:22:11.315 What can I do? 00:22:12.635 --> 00:22:16.505 And so I thought, well, crazy, that's the word. 00:22:16.505 --> 00:22:20.525 If the horses are going crazy, then they need to express that craziness. 00:22:20.885 --> 00:22:25.835 So we came up with this thing called crazy time, where I would take them up 00:22:25.835 --> 00:22:31.505 to four of them into the covered arena at one time and just set up obstacle courses 00:22:31.505 --> 00:22:32.915 for them of any kind I could think of. 00:22:33.095 --> 00:22:36.245 They liked to jump, so that included jumps, but it wasn't just about jumps. 00:22:36.725 --> 00:22:43.625 And I'd let 'em go and they'd go bananas in a, in a group and for a while and do 00:22:43.625 --> 00:22:48.515 it all and kind of then turn and look at me like, and now, and I go, oh, I see. 00:22:48.845 --> 00:22:49.925 They want that interaction. 00:22:50.165 --> 00:22:52.715 So then I would change it and then I'd say, off you go. 00:22:53.045 --> 00:22:56.345 And they go banana for a bit and then they'd turn around, look at me. 00:22:56.345 --> 00:22:57.305 And then that all you got. 00:22:58.295 --> 00:23:02.945 And then I, we, so we evolved this pattern and then I was thinking, 00:23:02.945 --> 00:23:06.965 yeah, but how do I, they science me quite a lot at this crazy time. 00:23:07.415 --> 00:23:09.155 And then after that they got so many endorphins. 00:23:09.155 --> 00:23:11.285 They're actually quite happy to stand and chill for a bit. 00:23:11.435 --> 00:23:13.115 But then of course the regular work starts. 00:23:13.265 --> 00:23:14.675 But this is time consuming. 00:23:14.675 --> 00:23:18.215 And I thought anxious again, right Time conflict. 00:23:18.965 --> 00:23:21.215 And that's said, well, hold on, hold on, hold on. 00:23:21.275 --> 00:23:23.795 Why don't I get my kids to do the crazy time? 00:23:24.245 --> 00:23:28.805 Why don't the clients come and do the crazy time with the horses and, oh, this 00:23:28.805 --> 00:23:33.935 is good horsemanship and you know, team building, gotta build the thing and so on. 00:23:34.535 --> 00:23:37.865 And then, oh, but now I'm under pressure because I'm also supposed 00:23:37.865 --> 00:23:41.375 to be teaching these kids stuff like maths and things like anxiety. 00:23:41.645 --> 00:23:42.965 I'm like, well, hold on, hold on, hold on. 00:23:43.325 --> 00:23:46.445 How long is the wall of the arena? 00:23:46.805 --> 00:23:48.365 Let's walk it out. 00:23:48.845 --> 00:23:51.395 Oh, it's 60 meters long. 00:23:51.425 --> 00:23:51.845 Okay. 00:23:51.905 --> 00:23:57.755 And how long does it take that horse or that kid or that dog to 00:23:58.355 --> 00:24:00.635 make it from one side to the other? 00:24:00.635 --> 00:24:02.435 And can we do distance over time? 00:24:02.435 --> 00:24:03.275 And that gets you speed. 00:24:03.275 --> 00:24:06.695 And suddenly I realized I'd stumbled into this massive teaching tool 00:24:07.205 --> 00:24:10.955 that everyone's needs got met. 00:24:11.945 --> 00:24:15.005 And it happened because I had ended up in this really imperfect 00:24:15.005 --> 00:24:17.195 situation, got very anxious about it, 00:24:20.315 --> 00:24:22.655 the horses kind of showing me what they needed. 00:24:24.635 --> 00:24:27.784 What was interesting was 00:24:30.485 --> 00:24:34.824 after I then left there and went back to keeping my horses in a more 00:24:34.824 --> 00:24:39.084 naturalistic way, which I do now again, I realized that I should have 00:24:39.084 --> 00:24:40.434 been doing crazy time the whole time. 00:24:41.889 --> 00:24:45.370 That they really, really dug it like I had been of the, of the opinion that, well, 00:24:45.370 --> 00:24:46.749 if they turned out, that's kind of enough. 00:24:46.754 --> 00:24:50.419 But, but actually horses are so playful and they love this 00:24:50.419 --> 00:24:51.860 interaction with their monkeys. 00:24:52.519 --> 00:24:56.419 That had I not been in that position of anxiety, I wouldn't have, you know, 00:24:56.419 --> 00:25:00.709 stumbled into this thing that, so I, I do feel that anxiety can sometimes 00:25:00.709 --> 00:25:05.029 be an aid if it's a temporary state. 00:25:05.119 --> 00:25:07.539 And it's also interesting, there's a slight contrast 00:25:07.539 --> 00:25:08.529 between what you guys said. 00:25:08.529 --> 00:25:12.339 You know, Chrissy, you were saying, well, we're often taught that we gotta be calm 00:25:12.339 --> 00:25:16.749 all the time, but actually we gotta let our nervous systems fluctuate because 00:25:17.379 --> 00:25:21.129 sometimes we're actually supposed to react, you know, appropriately to things. 00:25:21.279 --> 00:25:24.579 Jane Pike's work, I think is really good at showing us that sort of, 00:25:24.759 --> 00:25:27.309 for listeners who haven't gone and checked out Jane Pike, go check out 00:25:27.309 --> 00:25:29.229 Jane Pike and her nervous system work. 00:25:29.229 --> 00:25:29.949 It's top notch. 00:25:30.489 --> 00:25:34.419 But then Mark, there you are talking about, yes, but I 00:25:34.419 --> 00:25:35.589 need to be cool under fire. 00:25:35.919 --> 00:25:41.769 I need to be able to think, I need to be, not lose my ability to assess, 00:25:41.859 --> 00:25:44.499 control myself, et cetera, et cetera. 00:25:44.499 --> 00:25:49.749 Discern even under anxiety, producing pressure. 00:25:50.899 --> 00:25:52.455 Mark Rashid: Well, but those are two different things. 00:25:52.725 --> 00:25:54.284 Rupert Isaacson: Let's starts with that paradox a little. 00:25:54.914 --> 00:25:56.354 Mark Rashid: Those are two different things. 00:25:57.374 --> 00:25:58.604 Anxiety and pressure. 00:25:58.904 --> 00:25:59.354 Okay. 00:26:01.094 --> 00:26:04.274 Mark Rashid: So pressure will cause us to. 00:26:04.860 --> 00:26:06.750 Caused our seek system to kick in. 00:26:08.280 --> 00:26:14.969 So while you were, while you were talking, I was thinking, was that anxiety or was 00:26:14.969 --> 00:26:21.300 that pressure that he was feeling Anxiety a lot of times doesn't allow us to think. 00:26:22.980 --> 00:26:24.571 It, it true. 00:26:24.576 --> 00:26:26.520 It puts us in a different state of mind. 00:26:26.580 --> 00:26:28.290 Rupert Isaacson: That's the amygdala and cortisol, right? 00:26:28.320 --> 00:26:28.709 Right. 00:26:28.860 --> 00:26:29.040 Yeah. 00:26:29.550 --> 00:26:32.820 Mark Rashid: And so, but pressure's a different thing. 00:26:32.939 --> 00:26:38.040 Pressure causes the seek system to kick in so that we search for answers. 00:26:38.760 --> 00:26:40.260 So we look for a release. 00:26:40.260 --> 00:26:44.399 So we, that's a different, it's kind of a different ball game. 00:26:45.570 --> 00:26:46.379 Anxiety. 00:26:46.379 --> 00:26:49.814 I'm not, but pressure can produce anxiety enough. 00:26:50.429 --> 00:26:51.389 Enough, yeah. 00:26:52.919 --> 00:26:53.550 Enough of it. 00:26:53.550 --> 00:26:53.909 Yeah. 00:26:54.959 --> 00:26:59.399 And without us being able to deal with it in some kind of 00:26:59.760 --> 00:27:01.379 positive and productive way. 00:27:02.760 --> 00:27:05.445 So, for instance, you know, Dr. 00:27:05.445 --> 00:27:10.980 Peters talks about, you know, in the fifties they had a an experiment 00:27:10.980 --> 00:27:18.600 where they put a dog on a, on a metal floor in a little cage. 00:27:19.350 --> 00:27:25.350 And the cage was split in two by a, by a little wall that the, 00:27:25.350 --> 00:27:26.850 that the dog could jump over. 00:27:28.620 --> 00:27:32.250 And so they electrified the floor. 00:27:32.745 --> 00:27:37.185 I guess a little light went on and then they electrified the floor and 00:27:37.185 --> 00:27:40.485 then the dog jumped over to the other side where it wasn't electrified, 00:27:40.995 --> 00:27:42.525 so it was able to get away from it. 00:27:43.335 --> 00:27:47.295 And then they electrified turned the light on, and that side electrified the floor. 00:27:47.295 --> 00:27:51.315 The, the dog jumped over to the other side and was safe. 00:27:52.215 --> 00:27:56.175 And then eventually what they did was they electrified both sides of the floor. 00:27:56.415 --> 00:27:56.745 Okay. 00:27:57.615 --> 00:28:03.165 And it, it, it was basically ended up being learned helplessness. 00:28:03.645 --> 00:28:07.305 So the dog just sat in the corner and peed on itself and shook. 00:28:07.305 --> 00:28:10.965 And, you know, which is one of the reasons they don't do 00:28:10.965 --> 00:28:12.315 experiments like that anymore. 00:28:12.315 --> 00:28:17.745 But, but that's to, that's pressure to the point where we can't deal with it anymore. 00:28:18.825 --> 00:28:26.625 And the vast majority of situations that we are in day to day don't 00:28:26.625 --> 00:28:28.365 have that level of pressure. 00:28:29.535 --> 00:28:33.165 We, we allow ourselves to feel that much pressure. 00:28:34.305 --> 00:28:39.735 But they, and that's kind of what I was talking about before, is, does this situa, 00:28:39.735 --> 00:28:46.455 is this, a friend of ours talks about it in terms of, is it, is this a situation 00:28:46.485 --> 00:28:49.275 or is this an, is this an emergency? 00:28:50.745 --> 00:28:50.985 Crissi McDonald: Yeah. 00:28:50.985 --> 00:28:52.420 Is it an event or an emergency? 00:28:52.420 --> 00:28:53.865 An event or an emergency event. 00:28:54.405 --> 00:28:54.675 Yeah. 00:28:55.620 --> 00:29:00.150 Mark Rashid: And the problem is, is that we see too many things as, as emergencies 00:29:00.150 --> 00:29:01.740 when they're actually just events. 00:29:02.100 --> 00:29:02.460 Hmm. 00:29:04.110 --> 00:29:05.490 So that's very true. 00:29:08.640 --> 00:29:11.850 So that's why while you were talking I was, I was thinking, I wonder if 00:29:11.850 --> 00:29:18.030 that was actually anxiety or if it was, or if it was pressure because you 00:29:18.030 --> 00:29:21.720 were able to come up with solutions pretty quickly it sounds like. 00:29:21.870 --> 00:29:24.060 Rupert Isaacson: Well, it is interesting that what you were 00:29:24.060 --> 00:29:28.720 talking about with which I said, well, that's stoicism stoic philosophy. 00:29:29.320 --> 00:29:33.740 One of the things that actually helped me come up with that and it's, it's, 00:29:33.770 --> 00:29:37.880 it's stoic saying, and I, I, I dunno whether it's Epictetus or whether 00:29:37.880 --> 00:29:41.990 it's Marcus Aurelius or both or what or what, but it's one of them. 00:29:41.990 --> 00:29:45.920 I think and I've often found this one is really helpful when I'm freaking out, 00:29:46.910 --> 00:29:49.510 is this doesn't have to be something. 00:29:50.890 --> 00:29:53.380 It's only something if I make it something 00:29:54.700 --> 00:29:54.790 mm-hmm. 00:29:55.420 --> 00:29:57.430 Rupert Isaacson: Which I think could be qualified with. 00:29:58.150 --> 00:30:00.220 This could appear to be something. 00:30:00.670 --> 00:30:01.570 Mm-hmm. 00:30:01.576 --> 00:30:05.320 Rupert Isaacson: But it may not be something if I take a second look, 00:30:10.300 --> 00:30:12.070 it's fair to say I think that many. 00:30:13.179 --> 00:30:18.310 Horse owners and people in general have been trained into over amygdala, you 00:30:18.310 --> 00:30:23.830 know, anxiety, good work, where, as you say, events are seen as emergencies. 00:30:26.560 --> 00:30:29.949 Reading the stoics is helpful, and of course meditation is helpful and so on. 00:30:29.949 --> 00:30:34.400 But in people's day-to-day lives and their day-to-day interactions with their horses, 00:30:36.680 --> 00:30:39.710 what are some of the things that you found have really helped you guys? 00:30:40.460 --> 00:30:42.890 Because there must have been times in your lives when you were a bit 00:30:42.890 --> 00:30:44.780 more amygdala than you are now. 00:30:45.820 --> 00:30:51.190 And what were the exercises that you set yourself to go through that you found 00:30:51.190 --> 00:30:58.840 cumulatively over the years have helped you unlearn that way of looking at things? 00:30:58.840 --> 00:31:00.280 Do you want, do you wanna kick off with that, Chrissy? 00:31:00.310 --> 00:31:06.070 'cause I know you've, you, you, you've had your relationship with anxiety and so 00:31:06.070 --> 00:31:08.140 on, so do you wanna lead with that one? 00:31:09.520 --> 00:31:09.670 Crissi McDonald: Sure. 00:31:11.710 --> 00:31:15.880 So the practices that I have mostly have nothing to do with horses. 00:31:17.560 --> 00:31:18.430 It is, 00:31:20.470 --> 00:31:23.320 you know, I read all these articles and it, and it always basically 00:31:23.320 --> 00:31:29.680 comes back to good diet, good sleep, good exercise, and good connection. 00:31:29.950 --> 00:31:30.400 Hmm. 00:31:31.555 --> 00:31:38.935 Crissi McDonald: So shaping my life to prepare for myself in a way 00:31:39.055 --> 00:31:41.965 that I can receive those each day. 00:31:43.225 --> 00:31:48.545 You know, good connection, good sleep, good nutrition good movement. 00:31:49.025 --> 00:31:54.305 And, you know, I really enjoy reading your books because they talk about 00:31:55.475 --> 00:31:58.385 things as they used to be, you know, people as they used to be. 00:31:58.385 --> 00:32:03.575 You introduce us to people in societies who aren't ours, and it's 00:32:03.575 --> 00:32:06.005 a different way of looking at life. 00:32:06.005 --> 00:32:09.185 But I feel that it's all fundamental to all of us, you know? 00:32:09.185 --> 00:32:09.335 Sure. 00:32:09.335 --> 00:32:14.045 Wherever we live, wherever we're born, whatever language we speak, we 00:32:14.045 --> 00:32:19.145 need connection, movement, good food, and you know, a way of looking at 00:32:19.145 --> 00:32:26.135 the world that is more seeing it as a whole, not just our little slice. 00:32:26.945 --> 00:32:29.795 So I'm also interested in stoicism. 00:32:30.155 --> 00:32:34.535 I like, I've read Marcus Aurelius and Tic, I can never say his name 00:32:35.285 --> 00:32:37.236 Rupert Isaacson: because I think there's no one right way to pronounce it. 00:32:37.241 --> 00:32:39.600 That's because none of us really to pronounce that. 00:32:39.605 --> 00:32:40.055 Yeah. 00:32:40.175 --> 00:32:43.475 Crissi McDonald: So, so what that looks like on a day-to-day basis is, you know, 00:32:43.475 --> 00:32:46.115 I, I try to get as good sleep as I can. 00:32:46.205 --> 00:32:51.325 I tailor my diet to my body's needs, and we move a lot. 00:32:51.850 --> 00:32:54.040 And then Mark and I are together a lot. 00:32:54.040 --> 00:32:55.360 So that's the connection. 00:32:55.750 --> 00:32:56.980 I keep in touch with friends. 00:32:56.980 --> 00:32:58.870 This is a good connection we're having today. 00:32:58.870 --> 00:33:01.270 So this really is very nourishing. 00:33:01.690 --> 00:33:01.780 Mm-hmm. 00:33:02.110 --> 00:33:04.750 Crissi McDonald: And then by the time we get to the horses, I'm already 00:33:04.750 --> 00:33:10.060 so well resourced that if something goes hap, you know, if something goes 00:33:10.060 --> 00:33:15.340 sideways that I feel like I can manage it, there are days when that is not the 00:33:15.340 --> 00:33:17.440 case and I still have to go to work. 00:33:17.890 --> 00:33:23.500 So on those days, the bar gets really low, you know, can I be of service to people? 00:33:23.920 --> 00:33:28.840 I may not be able to really work with my horse in the way I want to, but can 00:33:28.840 --> 00:33:31.690 I show up just for this eight hours? 00:33:31.690 --> 00:33:36.070 Can I show up for myself and for the people who are here? 00:33:37.720 --> 00:33:39.460 So it, yeah. 00:33:39.460 --> 00:33:41.950 Most of the practices have nothing to do with horses. 00:33:41.950 --> 00:33:47.410 It's, it's like what Mark was saying before is how do we live our lives and 00:33:47.650 --> 00:33:49.600 then how do we take that to our horse? 00:33:50.170 --> 00:33:53.650 And I'm, you know, I'm saying this in about five minutes, but act in actuality 00:33:53.650 --> 00:34:00.220 it's been about 20 years that I have put together this way of going or 00:34:00.220 --> 00:34:01.930 this way of being that works for me. 00:34:02.050 --> 00:34:04.240 And, and it's not as though it got rid of anxiety. 00:34:04.930 --> 00:34:07.300 I just have a less contentious relationship with it now. 00:34:07.720 --> 00:34:07.810 Right. 00:34:09.340 --> 00:34:09.550 Crissi McDonald: Yeah. 00:34:10.270 --> 00:34:13.030 And now, right now what I'm doing is exploring creativity. 00:34:13.030 --> 00:34:16.810 So I just ordered watercolors and paints and paper and I've been 00:34:16.810 --> 00:34:20.440 drawing and, i've been reading about how creativity can actually 00:34:20.440 --> 00:34:22.480 take, take us out of our amygdala. 00:34:23.440 --> 00:34:27.219 So, and, and you know, all this too, from your work with the 00:34:28.120 --> 00:34:30.909 Rupert Isaacson: kids as Kima said, for happiness, practice the arts. 00:34:31.989 --> 00:34:32.350 Crissi McDonald: Yes. 00:34:32.710 --> 00:34:32.980 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:34:33.940 --> 00:34:34.210 Crissi McDonald: Yes. 00:34:34.989 --> 00:34:39.620 So that's, I think that's yeah, 20 years distill down into 00:34:39.620 --> 00:34:40.815 10 minutes before we, we, we 00:34:40.815 --> 00:34:43.279 Rupert Isaacson: go to to, to Mark's thoughts on this though, when you, you, 00:34:43.339 --> 00:34:47.179 you run these intensives where people, you know, come to you for 10 days 00:34:47.179 --> 00:34:51.349 and so on, and these are horsemanship things as well as life things. 00:34:52.039 --> 00:34:56.299 So a lot of these people, of course, are coming with anxiety because they're 00:34:56.299 --> 00:34:57.799 coming outta the world that we live in. 00:34:58.129 --> 00:35:03.169 So what are your, when, when you meet them, you say, okay, for this eight 00:35:03.169 --> 00:35:04.700 hours, here I am, I'm available. 00:35:05.189 --> 00:35:06.209 What's your, 00:35:08.729 --> 00:35:10.199 do you have some starting rituals? 00:35:12.839 --> 00:35:16.049 Crissi McDonald: Well, the first thing we do is we start in the dojo. 00:35:16.439 --> 00:35:18.869 So there's movement and breathing. 00:35:19.859 --> 00:35:27.419 And the major component of our time with people is verbally and non-verbally 00:35:27.419 --> 00:35:29.429 reassuring them that they're safe. 00:35:30.539 --> 00:35:35.249 I mean, as safe as you can be with horses, but it's creating an environment where 00:35:35.249 --> 00:35:37.949 they are safe to express themselves. 00:35:38.039 --> 00:35:39.509 It's the same thing we want for horses. 00:35:39.509 --> 00:35:39.569 Hmm. 00:35:40.329 --> 00:35:42.549 So there's joking and laughter and. 00:35:43.059 --> 00:35:46.779 Reassurance and, you know, letting people know that everything's 00:35:46.779 --> 00:35:49.929 okay, that it's gonna be fine. 00:35:50.589 --> 00:35:54.249 And then we have a meeting in the afternoon and we've had several 00:35:54.249 --> 00:35:57.619 meetings like this recently where we, we'll go around and ask people what 00:35:57.619 --> 00:35:58.969 we do like to do while you're here. 00:35:58.969 --> 00:36:00.019 Mm-hmm. 00:36:00.019 --> 00:36:00.020 And 00:36:01.334 --> 00:36:05.209 Crissi McDonald: you can, you can feel the anxiety, you know, my horse doesn't 00:36:05.209 --> 00:36:06.919 do this thing and I didn't do this thing. 00:36:06.919 --> 00:36:09.289 Or my horse, when he goes to canner, he bucks and I've come 00:36:09.289 --> 00:36:10.519 off six times and I broke. 00:36:10.519 --> 00:36:12.954 You know, you go around, but genuine 00:36:13.074 --> 00:36:13.754 Rupert Isaacson: concerns, right? 00:36:13.754 --> 00:36:13.954 Yeah. 00:36:14.144 --> 00:36:14.434 Crissi McDonald: Yeah. 00:36:14.494 --> 00:36:17.749 And there's, you know, 12 people there and, and you can just feel the 00:36:17.749 --> 00:36:20.809 anxiety churning through the room. 00:36:20.814 --> 00:36:20.874 Mm-hmm. 00:36:21.199 --> 00:36:21.289 Mm-hmm. 00:36:21.619 --> 00:36:24.049 Crissi McDonald: And it's really interesting because then when it's 00:36:24.049 --> 00:36:27.979 our turn to talk, you know, either Mark or I'll say, you don't have to 00:36:27.979 --> 00:36:31.669 ride today and you don't even have to ride the whole 10 days you're here. 00:36:32.419 --> 00:36:36.259 If you feel safe on the ground and you and your horse are doing great, stay on 00:36:36.259 --> 00:36:41.509 the ground it and, and the whole, you can feel a whole room go, oh, thank God. 00:36:43.069 --> 00:36:46.999 It's really, really interesting how it's the pressure, right? 00:36:46.999 --> 00:36:49.729 The pressure that then we take into anxiety. 00:36:50.239 --> 00:36:51.889 I have to, I'm here for 10 days. 00:36:52.219 --> 00:36:55.219 I made the space, I paid the money, and I need to get stuff done. 00:36:56.179 --> 00:37:00.049 And what we come in and say is, is it doesn't have to be that way. 00:37:02.899 --> 00:37:03.349 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 00:37:03.889 --> 00:37:06.229 Of course you have that little bit of anxiety in the back of your 00:37:06.229 --> 00:37:08.479 mind going, well, gosh, I hope I give these people value for money. 00:37:08.749 --> 00:37:12.949 And you know, if they come here, you know, am I going to give them what they need? 00:37:12.949 --> 00:37:14.389 And you know, and I certainly go through that Yes. 00:37:14.899 --> 00:37:15.289 Clinic. 00:37:15.439 --> 00:37:15.559 Yes. 00:37:16.289 --> 00:37:16.529 I do 00:37:16.529 --> 00:37:16.649 Crissi McDonald: too. 00:37:17.004 --> 00:37:17.274 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:37:17.274 --> 00:37:18.834 How do, what, what do you do about that? 00:37:19.854 --> 00:37:20.479 So every do my best. 00:37:20.694 --> 00:37:23.214 You say to somebody look, you don't have to ride, but you know, 00:37:23.214 --> 00:37:24.354 they really, really want to. 00:37:24.744 --> 00:37:28.194 And you know that if they go away without having ridden 00:37:28.194 --> 00:37:29.814 up, they will be disappointed. 00:37:29.904 --> 00:37:30.384 And, 00:37:32.544 --> 00:37:36.604 but it might be the right thing for them not to not easy. 00:37:38.164 --> 00:37:38.704 Not easy. 00:37:39.814 --> 00:37:39.934 Yeah. 00:37:39.934 --> 00:37:42.274 Crissi McDonald: But there are lots of things we can do that lead up to 00:37:42.274 --> 00:37:44.944 riding and it may end with them riding. 00:37:45.124 --> 00:37:45.184 Yeah. 00:37:45.184 --> 00:37:45.454 Right. 00:37:45.574 --> 00:37:49.594 So we're not gonna, we're not gonna say, oh, you have to work. 00:37:50.674 --> 00:37:52.684 You know, you have to lead your horse for 10 days. 00:37:53.254 --> 00:37:53.344 Right. 00:37:53.404 --> 00:37:56.254 Crissi McDonald: Let's lead your horse and see how they do tacking up. 00:37:56.254 --> 00:38:00.244 Let's see if, how you feel after you've been breathing for a couple days. 00:38:00.664 --> 00:38:01.414 Let's see. 00:38:01.774 --> 00:38:04.714 I, I find in our 10 day clinics, it takes about four to five 00:38:04.714 --> 00:38:06.124 days for people to unwind. 00:38:06.124 --> 00:38:06.184 Yeah. 00:38:06.724 --> 00:38:11.044 And then the second week is when a lot of the work that they're 00:38:11.044 --> 00:38:12.244 wanting to do comes through. 00:38:12.424 --> 00:38:17.374 It's, it's really interesting to watch the dynamic of each group and 00:38:17.374 --> 00:38:19.174 to watch that unwinding process. 00:38:21.439 --> 00:38:23.059 Rupert Isaacson: I could see how much of what you're doing. 00:38:23.059 --> 00:38:24.589 I love the fact that you started in the Dojo. 00:38:24.829 --> 00:38:27.619 How much of what you, you guys are doing is done out in nature? 00:38:28.129 --> 00:38:29.569 And if so, what sort of nature? 00:38:30.739 --> 00:38:31.664 Crissi McDonald: All, all of it. 00:38:31.784 --> 00:38:34.454 We're outside majority of the time, 00:38:34.994 --> 00:38:35.774 Rupert Isaacson: but there's outside. 00:38:36.044 --> 00:38:37.604 There's outside, you know what I mean? 00:38:37.604 --> 00:38:42.464 There's ki and you are there in Colorado, so there's a lot of outside yeah. 00:38:42.464 --> 00:38:43.994 For you to make, take advantage of. 00:38:43.994 --> 00:38:45.284 Like how do you use the nature? 00:38:45.870 --> 00:38:49.050 Mark Rashid: We that's an interesting thing because the ranch that we work 00:38:49.050 --> 00:38:53.430 off of, or we work out of is 115 acres. 00:38:54.315 --> 00:38:58.080 And some of it's developed and some of it isn't. 00:38:58.830 --> 00:39:06.180 And so when I say developed, you know, there's, you know, fenced 00:39:06.180 --> 00:39:11.370 pastures and things are cross fenced and, and but there's a ton 00:39:11.370 --> 00:39:14.580 of trails on the, on the grounds. 00:39:15.510 --> 00:39:22.140 And a lot of the folks that come to us are struggling with 00:39:22.140 --> 00:39:25.200 fear issues or some kind of. 00:39:26.400 --> 00:39:29.970 Anxiety issues or their horses are, Hmm. 00:39:30.300 --> 00:39:30.900 Or both? 00:39:31.020 --> 00:39:34.680 We, I mean, we've had people whose horses were really struggling and 00:39:34.680 --> 00:39:36.630 the people weren't really that much. 00:39:36.720 --> 00:39:42.180 They just kind of accepted that this is how my horses and, and, and other 00:39:42.180 --> 00:39:47.340 people whose horses were fine and they were struggling and, you know, and 00:39:47.790 --> 00:39:49.560 kind of everything in, in between. 00:39:51.270 --> 00:39:54.780 And we just, we basically tell folks from the get go two things. 00:39:54.840 --> 00:39:58.770 One of the things that we say is that misery is optional. 00:39:59.550 --> 00:39:59.760 Okay, 00:40:00.270 --> 00:40:00.570 Mark Rashid: that's cool. 00:40:00.570 --> 00:40:07.050 So if you wanna be miserable, that's fine, but you don't have to be so that we give 00:40:07.050 --> 00:40:09.330 them permission on the very first day. 00:40:10.110 --> 00:40:13.710 You know, if you wanna, if you want to take the afternoon 00:40:13.710 --> 00:40:15.030 off, take the afternoon off. 00:40:15.030 --> 00:40:19.260 If you, if you're, if you need to use the restroom, use the restroom. 00:40:19.290 --> 00:40:21.000 If you're hungry, get something to eat. 00:40:21.570 --> 00:40:22.650 Take care of yourself. 00:40:22.650 --> 00:40:26.490 You wanna sit in the shade, sit in the shade, whatever it does, that part of 00:40:26.490 --> 00:40:29.340 it, you know, it's, it's your time. 00:40:29.340 --> 00:40:30.240 It's bought and paid for. 00:40:30.240 --> 00:40:31.980 You take care of yourself. 00:40:32.700 --> 00:40:40.230 So we give them permission right off the bat to, to just be okay being there. 00:40:40.230 --> 00:40:45.720 There is, we don't have any there's no structure to what we do in 00:40:45.720 --> 00:40:48.120 other, well, there's a structure if you want to call it that, but. 00:40:48.900 --> 00:40:52.380 We, we work with each, everybody as an individual. 00:40:52.380 --> 00:40:55.830 We don't do anything as a group other than ride together. 00:40:56.400 --> 00:41:00.600 And we have a, a huge arena and the arena's, I don't know, 00:41:00.600 --> 00:41:02.940 maybe an acre or a half acre. 00:41:02.940 --> 00:41:03.930 It's a huge arena. 00:41:04.620 --> 00:41:10.980 And so one end of the arena is for people who wanna, you know, do trot and canner. 00:41:11.040 --> 00:41:14.400 The other end of the arena is for folks who wanna do just walk and trot, 00:41:15.090 --> 00:41:17.040 there's a round pen in the arena. 00:41:17.610 --> 00:41:20.580 So ev you know, we, we can keep our eyes on everybody. 00:41:21.300 --> 00:41:24.060 And we tell 'em that you can ride out if you want. 00:41:24.690 --> 00:41:29.100 There's trails and a lot of the folks will go out and hike the trails first. 00:41:29.430 --> 00:41:29.730 Mm. 00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:33.630 Mark Rashid: And then eventually they might go out and ride the trails. 00:41:33.630 --> 00:41:33.750 Mm-hmm. 00:41:34.050 --> 00:41:35.280 Depending on how they feel. 00:41:35.880 --> 00:41:39.090 There's a big loop around the, the arena. 00:41:39.360 --> 00:41:42.780 It's on a road, but it's, you know, it's kind of in the forest. 00:41:43.380 --> 00:41:47.960 And a lot of the ri, a lot of the people that show up who didn't think 00:41:47.960 --> 00:41:52.955 that they would be able to ride out of a, an arena, and by the way, the, the 00:41:52.960 --> 00:41:59.420 arena doesn't have a fence around it, so they end up going out and riding 00:41:59.420 --> 00:42:04.040 that big loop either by themselves or with other, with other folks. 00:42:04.490 --> 00:42:11.180 So we, you know, kind of let people get comfortable with the 00:42:11.180 --> 00:42:13.730 things that they want to do. 00:42:14.825 --> 00:42:19.745 In their own time with our guidance, basically. 00:42:23.241 --> 00:42:25.571 Rupert Isaacson: If you're in the equine assisted field, or if you're 00:42:25.571 --> 00:42:30.001 considering a career in the equine assisted field, you might want to consider 00:42:30.071 --> 00:42:34.341 taking one of our three neuroscience backed equine assisted programs. 00:42:34.401 --> 00:42:39.981 Horseboy method, now established for 20 years, is the original 00:42:40.576 --> 00:42:46.886 Equine assisted program specifically designed for autism, mentored by and 00:42:46.886 --> 00:42:49.556 developed in conjunction with Dr. 00:42:49.556 --> 00:42:52.436 Temple Grandin and many other neuroscientists. 00:42:52.776 --> 00:42:56.046 We work in the saddle with younger children. 00:42:56.541 --> 00:43:01.491 Helping them create oxytocin in their bodies and neuroplasticity in the brain. 00:43:02.151 --> 00:43:03.591 It works incredibly well. 00:43:03.591 --> 00:43:05.311 It's now in about 40 countries. 00:43:06.021 --> 00:43:06.771 Check it out. 00:43:07.451 --> 00:43:11.601 If you're working without horses, you might want to look at movement 00:43:11.611 --> 00:43:14.981 method, which gets a very, very similar effect, but can also be 00:43:14.981 --> 00:43:16.731 applied in schools, in homes. 00:43:16.931 --> 00:43:21.921 If you're working with families, you can give them really tangible exercises to do 00:43:21.921 --> 00:43:23.461 at home that will create neuroplasticity. 00:43:24.816 --> 00:43:26.096 when they're not with you. 00:43:26.606 --> 00:43:30.046 Finally, we have taquine equine integration. 00:43:30.406 --> 00:43:33.026 If you know anything about our programs, you know that we need a 00:43:33.026 --> 00:43:37.026 really high standard of horsemanship in order to create the oxytocin 00:43:37.056 --> 00:43:41.346 in the body of the person that we're working with, child or adult. 00:43:41.786 --> 00:43:45.126 So, this means we need to train a horse in collection, but this 00:43:45.146 --> 00:43:49.386 also has a really beneficial effect on the horse's well being. 00:43:49.586 --> 00:43:53.876 And it also ends your time conflict, where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how 00:43:53.876 --> 00:43:57.176 am I going to condition my horses and maintain them and give them what they 00:43:57.176 --> 00:44:00.271 need, as well as Serving my clients. 00:44:00.511 --> 00:44:05.011 Takine equine integration aimed at a more adult client base 00:44:05.341 --> 00:44:06.991 absolutely gives you this. 00:44:07.051 --> 00:44:14.551 Quick thought, is being of service to people itself a cure for anxiety? 00:44:16.951 --> 00:44:17.581 Crissi McDonald: Oh, yes. 00:44:18.751 --> 00:44:19.381 Mark Rashid: I would say so. 00:44:19.381 --> 00:44:19.981 Crissi McDonald: Absolutely. 00:44:20.311 --> 00:44:21.001 Absolutely. 00:44:22.741 --> 00:44:27.151 Rupert Isaacson: And therefore, presumably back to your point to one's horse as 00:44:27.151 --> 00:44:32.641 well, showing up and okay, maybe I can't do that thing I was planning 00:44:32.641 --> 00:44:34.411 to do, but what does my horse need? 00:44:36.511 --> 00:44:36.841 And if 00:44:36.841 --> 00:44:41.911 Mark Rashid: a big, a big part of what we do is that people will come in 00:44:41.911 --> 00:44:48.121 with an agenda and we will help them understand where their horse actually is. 00:44:49.291 --> 00:44:54.211 And you know, these are, these are maybe the limitations that 00:44:54.211 --> 00:45:00.181 your horse has physically or emotionally or whatever it is. 00:45:02.011 --> 00:45:08.431 And then they learn how to deal with those things, either with other professionals 00:45:08.431 --> 00:45:10.201 that are on the ranch at the time. 00:45:11.041 --> 00:45:15.031 We have a, an amazing holistic vet that is there mm-hmm. 00:45:15.271 --> 00:45:16.561 Most of the time when we're there. 00:45:17.341 --> 00:45:21.261 And, is able to step in and help people with their horses. 00:45:21.286 --> 00:45:23.781 Rupert Isaacson: Is that is just living there or comes in 00:45:23.781 --> 00:45:26.721 specifically for your workshops or, 00:45:28.641 --> 00:45:29.061 Mark Rashid: I don't know. 00:45:29.061 --> 00:45:32.601 She's magical, so I don't, she doesn't live there. 00:45:32.601 --> 00:45:32.661 She 00:45:32.661 --> 00:45:34.192 Rupert Isaacson: manifests out of the birch trees, you know. 00:45:34.197 --> 00:45:34.466 Yeah. 00:45:34.851 --> 00:45:35.721 I mean, it's, it's, 00:45:36.501 --> 00:45:37.281 Mark Rashid: she's amazing. 00:45:37.281 --> 00:45:38.811 She is truly amazing. 00:45:39.531 --> 00:45:40.851 She's just this little, she tries to 00:45:40.851 --> 00:45:41.751 Crissi McDonald: schedule her. 00:45:41.841 --> 00:45:42.111 Yeah. 00:45:42.111 --> 00:45:44.541 She tries to schedule her visits when, when we're there, 00:45:44.546 --> 00:45:45.201 what's name, but she lives 00:45:45.201 --> 00:45:45.981 what, should we be aware of her? 00:45:46.731 --> 00:45:47.151 Crissi McDonald: Yes. 00:45:47.901 --> 00:45:48.771 Her name is Dr. 00:45:48.771 --> 00:45:49.551 Janet Varus. 00:45:50.361 --> 00:45:51.291 How do you spell Far Hus? 00:45:52.791 --> 00:45:56.706 Crissi McDonald: V-A-R-H-U-S-V-A-R-H-U-S. 00:45:56.711 --> 00:45:57.291 Okay. 00:45:57.801 --> 00:45:57.951 Crissi McDonald: Yeah. 00:45:57.951 --> 00:46:00.741 I can give you her email if you're interested. 00:46:00.741 --> 00:46:01.251 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I'd love to. 00:46:01.251 --> 00:46:03.951 Sounds like someone I should be interviewing on the on the show here. 00:46:04.461 --> 00:46:06.741 Mark Rashid: She's pretty incredible. 00:46:07.191 --> 00:46:07.431 Rupert Isaacson: Hmm. 00:46:07.821 --> 00:46:11.121 Mark Rashid: But anyway, she does have a tendency to schedule while 00:46:11.121 --> 00:46:13.881 we're there and she rides with us. 00:46:14.061 --> 00:46:17.541 She works on our horses and we, and we trade out time. 00:46:17.721 --> 00:46:22.581 So she comes to 10 day clinics, you know, having worked on our horses. 00:46:22.581 --> 00:46:23.661 We trade out the time. 00:46:24.351 --> 00:46:29.141 And but yeah, she's, she's just this little woman that 00:46:29.141 --> 00:46:30.851 goes around and fixes things. 00:46:31.751 --> 00:46:35.501 So, but anyway, that's part of the thing. 00:46:35.501 --> 00:46:38.321 It's, it's, you know, it's not. 00:46:39.831 --> 00:46:44.336 I think people come in, like Chrissy said earlier, assuming that 00:46:44.966 --> 00:46:49.346 these things are gonna happen and then they're gonna feel better. 00:46:50.306 --> 00:46:54.356 And what they actually do is they find out that there are this whole other 00:46:54.356 --> 00:47:00.626 set of things that don't have, don't seem to have anything to do with the 00:47:00.626 --> 00:47:04.826 things that they wanted to do, but by the time they leave, they're doing 00:47:04.826 --> 00:47:08.246 the things they wanted to by having addressed all of these other issues. 00:47:10.226 --> 00:47:10.436 Yeah. 00:47:10.436 --> 00:47:16.196 So, you know, that's, that's kind of our focus is, okay, what's 00:47:16.196 --> 00:47:18.206 the, what's the real issue here? 00:47:19.676 --> 00:47:20.156 You know? 00:47:20.216 --> 00:47:22.856 And then is there some way we can address that? 00:47:23.936 --> 00:47:26.606 Rupert Isaacson: Is everyone coming, coming with a quote 00:47:26.606 --> 00:47:29.396 unquote dilemma or problem? 00:47:30.326 --> 00:47:32.906 Or are some people just coming for the crack? 00:47:36.656 --> 00:47:38.036 Mark Rashid: Well, I go, I come for the crack. 00:47:38.036 --> 00:47:38.696 I know that. 00:47:42.536 --> 00:47:48.686 No, I would say I would say there's probably a majority of, I would say 00:47:48.686 --> 00:47:55.316 if we have 10 riders, I would say maybe eight of the 10 might have 00:47:55.316 --> 00:47:58.076 some kind of an issue that they're have, that they're struggling with. 00:47:58.136 --> 00:48:00.356 Rupert Isaacson: That has brought them to you, that they've made the 00:48:00.356 --> 00:48:02.156 decision to come to you because of this. 00:48:02.576 --> 00:48:02.816 Right. 00:48:02.876 --> 00:48:03.356 So interesting. 00:48:03.356 --> 00:48:05.426 A lot of anxiety to some degree has brought them to you. 00:48:07.151 --> 00:48:07.441 Mark Rashid: Yeah. 00:48:07.591 --> 00:48:07.881 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:48:07.881 --> 00:48:07.882 Yeah. 00:48:07.887 --> 00:48:07.916 And, 00:48:08.246 --> 00:48:11.036 Mark Rashid: and, and a lot of folks come from overseas or they come 00:48:11.036 --> 00:48:12.416 from the other end of the country 00:48:12.596 --> 00:48:12.686 mm-hmm. 00:48:12.986 --> 00:48:17.816 Mark Rashid: And they don't bring their horses, so they ride ranch horses. 00:48:17.816 --> 00:48:22.376 And so they're trying to figure out maybe regaining confidence or 00:48:23.036 --> 00:48:27.926 figuring out how to do transitions cleaner or just improving their 00:48:27.926 --> 00:48:30.026 horsemanship, that kind of thing. 00:48:31.286 --> 00:48:31.586 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:48:31.586 --> 00:48:35.206 It's, it's, it's interesting I just wrote down as you were saying that, that 00:48:35.206 --> 00:48:37.816 we get into horses in the first place 00:48:39.946 --> 00:48:42.016 because we feel they'll, they'll make us feel better. 00:48:42.976 --> 00:48:43.306 Right. 00:48:45.796 --> 00:48:49.726 As, as children we have this, this, this will answer a dream, 00:48:49.726 --> 00:48:51.226 a need will make me feel better. 00:48:52.246 --> 00:48:54.076 Mark Rashid: Or you don't even, like in my case, I didn't 00:48:54.076 --> 00:48:56.056 even know why I liked horses. 00:48:56.061 --> 00:48:56.421 Exactly. 00:48:56.421 --> 00:48:56.781 I just did. 00:48:57.316 --> 00:48:57.796 Rupert Isaacson: Exactly. 00:48:57.796 --> 00:49:00.406 But you do, but you think this makes me feel better, the 00:49:00.406 --> 00:49:02.056 presence of this Absolutely. 00:49:02.056 --> 00:49:04.156 Visually there in the landscape. 00:49:04.666 --> 00:49:04.756 Mm-hmm. 00:49:05.596 --> 00:49:08.296 Rupert Isaacson: Then of course we get into riding and training and 00:49:08.296 --> 00:49:11.536 this and that and, and then we, my God, that's sort of anxious. 00:49:11.536 --> 00:49:12.676 It's good enough, it's not good enough. 00:49:12.676 --> 00:49:17.326 And then, and suddenly this thing that we got into in order to feel 00:49:17.326 --> 00:49:20.146 better is making us feel worse. 00:49:21.376 --> 00:49:26.686 And then you are there in service to help 'em to feel better again. 00:49:27.616 --> 00:49:29.141 In, in, in my position. 00:49:29.201 --> 00:49:32.231 I do have that to some degree as well with horse training, so on. 00:49:32.231 --> 00:49:38.141 But with the, the work we do with autism and anxiety and trauma, it's definitely 00:49:38.141 --> 00:49:39.911 people coming in not feeling good. 00:49:40.601 --> 00:49:46.391 And us saying, this horse and this nature will help you feel good. 00:49:47.771 --> 00:49:50.861 And then in the background, having to work out yes. 00:49:50.861 --> 00:49:54.311 But what aspects of it will, and it's really interesting. 00:49:54.316 --> 00:49:59.081 The, the reason I asked about trails in nature was in another, another 00:50:00.891 --> 00:50:02.721 thing that I was slightly forced into. 00:50:03.921 --> 00:50:08.301 When I began doing the whole horse boy thing, the property I 00:50:08.301 --> 00:50:10.041 did it on had no infrastructure. 00:50:10.041 --> 00:50:11.751 So there was no arena, there was no nothing. 00:50:11.751 --> 00:50:15.741 It was, it was just me with my kid in front of me riding around. 00:50:16.431 --> 00:50:21.951 And then later as the program grew and we had to train quite a 00:50:21.951 --> 00:50:23.151 few horses to do it, it's okay. 00:50:23.151 --> 00:50:24.261 Arenas are useful there, 00:50:26.691 --> 00:50:30.591 convenient when you have to do a lot of things with a lot of horses because 00:50:31.431 --> 00:50:34.101 that footing will be good even when the footing outside is not good. 00:50:34.101 --> 00:50:34.371 Okay. 00:50:34.371 --> 00:50:37.101 So we can agree that an arena can be a good thing, but an arena 00:50:37.101 --> 00:50:41.691 also, I feel carries a certain innate spirit of pressure with it. 00:50:43.011 --> 00:50:46.191 And because you think about what goes on in arenas, it's, it's 00:50:46.191 --> 00:50:48.441 focused attention, isn't it? 00:50:48.921 --> 00:50:53.421 And you also think the arena, like the Roman Arena, gladiatorial combat people 00:50:53.421 --> 00:50:58.101 being put to death, eaten by lions, you know, highly stressful events. 00:50:58.181 --> 00:51:00.401 And although I suppose if you're the public eating popcorn 00:51:00.401 --> 00:51:01.241 watching it, perhaps not. 00:51:01.631 --> 00:51:04.591 And they butchered to make a Roman holiday, you know, that 00:51:04.691 --> 00:51:06.881 Lord Byron Bower, the dying Gore. 00:51:07.451 --> 00:51:13.631 But I think inevitably, as soon as you enter an arena, you feel this. 00:51:13.631 --> 00:51:16.871 So we deliberately built our arena, our covered arena in Texas. 00:51:16.871 --> 00:51:18.731 'cause we needed shade, man. 00:51:18.761 --> 00:51:20.261 'cause it was, you know what Texas is like? 00:51:20.261 --> 00:51:20.831 Mm-hmm. 00:51:21.126 --> 00:51:23.436 Rupert Isaacson: So we built a cover, but it was only a cover and it was open 00:51:23.436 --> 00:51:25.896 at the side, so you could see into the woods and the kids could like hop off 00:51:25.896 --> 00:51:27.636 the horse and go off into the woods. 00:51:27.936 --> 00:51:31.656 And then we realized we needed to build trails that were circular loops because 00:51:31.656 --> 00:51:36.396 we had kids that were runners and they wouldn't run into a wall of ve vegetation. 00:51:36.666 --> 00:51:38.166 They'd sort of would, but they'd look back. 00:51:38.166 --> 00:51:42.126 And so you could like position someone there and, oh hey, how's it going? 00:51:42.126 --> 00:51:43.386 And the kid would just run back to you. 00:51:43.926 --> 00:51:50.256 Then when we came here, the amazing thing about Germany was access. 00:51:50.586 --> 00:51:53.376 If you see it, you can ride it and walk it. 00:51:53.856 --> 00:51:55.746 No one's gonna come with a gun and run you off. 00:51:56.556 --> 00:51:57.876 It's absolutely amazing. 00:51:57.876 --> 00:52:00.816 I've never experienced trail riding like this before. 00:52:01.596 --> 00:52:03.606 Sometimes the weather can be quite bad in the winter. 00:52:03.786 --> 00:52:09.536 So, there I'm in the arena, but now I'm sharing the arena with sometimes 00:52:09.536 --> 00:52:14.366 rather grumpy German people who, and then I'm thinking, oh gosh, now how am 00:52:14.366 --> 00:52:16.316 I gonna keep this kid emotionally safe? 00:52:16.346 --> 00:52:17.696 Well, I gotta get back out on the trail. 00:52:18.656 --> 00:52:22.096 And then coming to the realization, oh my gosh, well if autism is, 00:52:22.096 --> 00:52:28.166 you know, the difficulty with the relationship with the exterior world 00:52:28.376 --> 00:52:32.576 auto, the Greek word for the self autom selfism locked within the self. 00:52:33.266 --> 00:52:34.436 What am I doing in this arena? 00:52:34.586 --> 00:52:38.876 You know, I need to be out there where planet earth is, where all the things 00:52:38.876 --> 00:52:46.196 that this exterior world to the point that now even with the dressage, 00:52:46.526 --> 00:52:48.176 our entire thing is done in nature. 00:52:48.296 --> 00:52:50.846 It's just like, we call it dressage in nature. 00:52:50.876 --> 00:52:53.966 It's like, I'm not saying we'll never go into an arena, but it will 00:52:53.966 --> 00:52:57.626 be this much of the time, everything else that we'll do, even if it's 00:52:57.626 --> 00:53:03.026 like the Pifi P pii, Tempe Changey stuff, we're gonna do it out there. 00:53:04.046 --> 00:53:05.246 And why are we gonna do it out there? 00:53:05.246 --> 00:53:06.386 'cause it's gonna chill us out. 00:53:07.256 --> 00:53:10.736 And the horses have a tendency to go forward out there anyway. 00:53:10.736 --> 00:53:13.436 But they're happy, we're happy, we're engaged. 00:53:14.756 --> 00:53:21.056 But without even as naturey as I am, you know, without the kids kind of almost 00:53:21.056 --> 00:53:24.806 forcing me into that position, I wouldn't have come to the obvious conclusion. 00:53:24.806 --> 00:53:24.866 I. 00:53:25.481 --> 00:53:29.111 That, well, maybe it feels better out there. 00:53:29.111 --> 00:53:33.101 And then things like dressage, which can sometimes make people feel worse 00:53:34.541 --> 00:53:40.061 because of some anxieties that can come along with them, you can allay that by 00:53:40.061 --> 00:53:45.321 just going where you feel better and and that, that's even allowed, you know? 00:53:45.431 --> 00:53:49.901 So the fact that you're working like that and you, you mentioned, I was intrigued, 00:53:50.891 --> 00:53:54.731 mark as you were talking because you gave this mental picture of the geography of 00:53:54.731 --> 00:53:58.181 the place really well, of how the arena's laid out, and then this loop around 00:53:58.181 --> 00:53:59.441 it, and then these trails off from it. 00:53:59.441 --> 00:54:03.731 And then how people might walk the trails first and again, lay anxiety 00:54:03.731 --> 00:54:04.961 so there's no nasty surprises. 00:54:04.961 --> 00:54:07.121 You know, where you're gonna go, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah bum. 00:54:08.681 --> 00:54:13.676 But we know that many horse programs are not done like this in, in, in 00:54:13.681 --> 00:54:19.781 fact I'd say that because of the convenience of arenas a lot of 00:54:20.171 --> 00:54:25.121 ings, I would say leaves one feeling more anxious than one went went in. 00:54:25.481 --> 00:54:28.121 And I've certainly had that experience. 00:54:28.811 --> 00:54:34.241 Do you teach people, you guys, how to clinic, do you teach people 00:54:34.241 --> 00:54:36.671 how to use nature in these ways? 00:54:37.811 --> 00:54:42.281 Do you send them home with like a prescription saying, okay, lads, when you 00:54:42.281 --> 00:54:44.261 get home, get outta that fucking arena. 00:54:44.381 --> 00:54:46.361 You know, do this, do this, do this, do this. 00:54:46.991 --> 00:54:47.321 Like. 00:54:48.386 --> 00:54:51.566 Have you put weirdly a sort of a structure on that yet? 00:54:52.256 --> 00:54:54.776 Because I, I, I think from what you just described, 00:54:57.236 --> 00:55:00.986 some of those people coming to your clinics may not have that experience 00:55:00.986 --> 00:55:05.366 at home, and they may not take that back necessarily unless someone kind of 00:55:05.366 --> 00:55:07.076 grants them permission to in a weird way. 00:55:07.076 --> 00:55:07.886 Do you know what I mean? 00:55:08.306 --> 00:55:08.996 So, yeah. 00:55:10.106 --> 00:55:15.986 Do you make that explicit to them for the homework when they, when they go back? 00:55:16.016 --> 00:55:16.496 Perhaps? 00:55:16.588 --> 00:55:20.728 Crissi McDonald: We don't have anything specific like that. 00:55:21.203 --> 00:55:29.248 I think that's a fabulous idea what we, because of the nature of the property, 00:55:29.518 --> 00:55:33.778 you know, it's, it's set within, we have fields and we have forests, and we have, 00:55:33.808 --> 00:55:35.248 there's a creek that runs through it. 00:55:35.608 --> 00:55:35.698 Mm-hmm. 00:55:36.328 --> 00:55:40.558 Crissi McDonald: And it's very long so people can walk from one end to the other. 00:55:41.788 --> 00:55:49.948 I, from my point of view, what my hope is, is that by experiencing that and 00:55:49.948 --> 00:55:54.748 making that a practice for 10 days, that they will seek that out where they are. 00:55:55.438 --> 00:55:59.758 And sometimes we have discussions that, that elaborate on that, you 00:55:59.758 --> 00:56:02.908 know, just, they'll say, oh, I have to go back to the real world now. 00:56:03.958 --> 00:56:04.198 Right. 00:56:04.198 --> 00:56:05.518 Crissi McDonald: Well, this. 00:56:05.908 --> 00:56:08.878 Isn't any less real than the one you're in. 00:56:09.388 --> 00:56:17.188 It's just there's been a space created for you to explore different things, 00:56:17.998 --> 00:56:21.838 and it was your choice to explore different things that doesn't leave 00:56:21.838 --> 00:56:22.843 just because you leave the property. 00:56:24.358 --> 00:56:24.418 Hmm. 00:56:24.718 --> 00:56:31.048 Crissi McDonald: So, we'll, sometimes our discussions get into that realm, but I 00:56:31.048 --> 00:56:34.888 really, I really appreciate what you're saying about nature and I, I agree. 00:56:35.218 --> 00:56:36.808 We don't spend enough time in it. 00:56:37.678 --> 00:56:41.488 I, I, I feel very fortunate because Mark and I get to spend a lot of time outside. 00:56:42.148 --> 00:56:45.748 If you're with horses, it's what you do so 00:56:46.078 --> 00:56:47.608 Rupert Isaacson: Well, if you are getting out of the arena. 00:56:47.608 --> 00:56:47.938 Yeah. 00:56:48.028 --> 00:56:48.328 Yeah. 00:56:48.628 --> 00:56:49.018 Crissi McDonald: Yes. 00:56:49.348 --> 00:56:49.798 Yes. 00:56:49.858 --> 00:56:51.478 I'll let Mark chime in now. 00:56:53.488 --> 00:56:56.788 Mark Rashid: Well, like Chris, you said we don't, we don't really do, 00:56:58.318 --> 00:57:00.298 we don't really give people homework. 00:57:00.448 --> 00:57:07.918 Generally speaking, it's a pretty transformative experience for people. 00:57:08.278 --> 00:57:08.638 Hmm. 00:57:08.998 --> 00:57:10.558 Mark Rashid: That is not our goal. 00:57:11.938 --> 00:57:21.448 Our goal basically is to help where we can and, and hopefully then things are 00:57:21.448 --> 00:57:23.968 better when they, when they go away. 00:57:24.328 --> 00:57:26.908 So, so for me, the. 00:57:28.063 --> 00:57:33.913 That is always my, that's always the thing that's in, in the, in the 00:57:33.913 --> 00:57:39.973 front of my mind is how can we help here and what can we do to help you? 00:57:40.903 --> 00:57:46.393 And we have assistant instructors and every day we get together with 00:57:46.393 --> 00:57:50.713 them at the end of the day and we talk about, okay, who did we get to? 00:57:51.163 --> 00:57:54.103 Who did, who did we get to today? 00:57:54.313 --> 00:57:59.953 So, you know, we wanna make sure that everybody gets, gets some 00:57:59.953 --> 00:58:03.103 time with at least one of us. 00:58:03.523 --> 00:58:08.083 But we, we basically just go from one student to the next student. 00:58:08.083 --> 00:58:10.003 We just rotate all of us through. 00:58:11.263 --> 00:58:16.933 And so folks are getting maybe the same information in a different way. 00:58:18.373 --> 00:58:22.603 And so something that I might say might not resonate, but somebody, something 00:58:22.603 --> 00:58:29.203 that Chrissy says basically going in the same direction might resonate instead. 00:58:30.283 --> 00:58:35.533 And so, you know, and we, we basically, we, we very seldom will 00:58:35.533 --> 00:58:41.863 spend more than about 10 or 15 minutes at a time with any one student. 00:58:41.923 --> 00:58:44.833 Sometimes it'll be more than that if they really need it. 00:58:44.833 --> 00:58:50.923 But before we can then we'll move off of them and go to another student. 00:58:50.983 --> 00:58:54.853 And so they make it 15 minutes of instruction. 00:58:55.678 --> 00:59:00.808 Then maybe another 20 minutes to work on it by themselves where there's no 00:59:00.808 --> 00:59:04.018 pressure from any, nobody's watching 'em. 00:59:04.198 --> 00:59:07.678 They can just work on it on their own. 00:59:08.338 --> 00:59:13.888 And then just maybe just as they start feeling a little overwhelmed, somebody 00:59:13.888 --> 00:59:19.498 shows up, one of the instructors will show up, give 'em another 10 minutes, 00:59:19.858 --> 00:59:24.718 and then they get to do, and so that's kind of how it works with us. 00:59:24.718 --> 00:59:30.388 It's very low pressure of any kind really, other than the 00:59:30.388 --> 00:59:31.858 pressure that folks are feeling. 00:59:32.278 --> 00:59:38.698 But even that starts to dissipate within the first few days usually, you know, plus 00:59:38.698 --> 00:59:44.278 we spend the first three mornings in the dojo and that just getting people back 00:59:44.278 --> 00:59:46.228 in their bodies makes a big difference. 00:59:47.428 --> 00:59:49.618 Rupert Isaacson: You said we don't really have a structure, and then you said, 00:59:50.308 --> 00:59:51.538 well actually we do have a structure. 00:59:51.628 --> 00:59:56.548 And then you've, what you've described actually does sound quite structured, 00:59:56.548 --> 01:00:01.858 but what I think perhaps I'm getting from that is what you're saying 01:00:01.858 --> 01:00:04.888 is the structure is not presented 01:00:07.443 --> 01:00:08.638 in a pressure full way. 01:00:09.988 --> 01:00:13.198 Can you talk to me about structure, how you got, because 01:00:13.198 --> 01:00:14.698 without structure one is lost. 01:00:15.358 --> 01:00:17.248 You know, everything does have structures. 01:00:17.368 --> 01:00:18.568 Nature has structures. 01:00:19.528 --> 01:00:23.458 How do you, what structures do you have and how do you, have you 01:00:23.458 --> 01:00:27.598 evolved them and how have you evolved them not to feel pressure full 01:00:29.938 --> 01:00:31.858 Mark Rashid: well, it's interesting 'cause one of the things we tell 01:00:31.858 --> 01:00:37.168 folks is that softness without structure is not softness. 01:00:37.438 --> 01:00:37.768 Hmm. 01:00:37.768 --> 01:00:40.228 I'm not sure what it is, but it's not softness. 01:00:40.678 --> 01:00:40.828 Mm-hmm. 01:00:41.788 --> 01:00:45.298 Mark Rashid: So there has to be, even with softness, there has to be structure. 01:00:46.678 --> 01:00:53.548 So, you know, we can just say, you know, how many, how many muscles 01:00:53.548 --> 01:00:58.048 are you using to do to pick your, your coffee cup off the table? 01:00:59.098 --> 01:01:03.298 You know, if you're using more muscle than it, than you need to use to 01:01:03.298 --> 01:01:06.238 pick that cup up, you're not soft. 01:01:06.658 --> 01:01:06.958 Right. 01:01:07.408 --> 01:01:11.008 But you're, but there's, even if you're, if you're only using the muscles you 01:01:11.008 --> 01:01:14.458 need, there's still structure there so that you can pick the coffee cup up. 01:01:14.458 --> 01:01:14.878 Mm-hmm. 01:01:15.643 --> 01:01:20.443 So that's the first thing is that I, I couldn't agree more 01:01:20.473 --> 01:01:24.073 that ev their structure and everything, including softness. 01:01:25.618 --> 01:01:25.838 Rupert Isaacson: Ooh. 01:01:25.838 --> 01:01:26.803 And so, okay. 01:01:26.803 --> 01:01:28.393 The structure of softness. 01:01:29.173 --> 01:01:29.623 Mark Rashid: Yes. 01:01:29.923 --> 01:01:30.913 Rupert Isaacson: Talk Yeah, 01:01:30.913 --> 01:01:31.273 please. 01:01:31.273 --> 01:01:31.633 More. 01:01:34.513 --> 01:01:34.933 Mark Rashid: Well, 01:01:37.153 --> 01:01:41.113 when we very first started this conversation, one of the things that 01:01:41.233 --> 01:01:43.693 you mentioned was, am I soft enough? 01:01:43.693 --> 01:01:44.413 Mm-hmm. 01:01:45.373 --> 01:01:48.253 Mark Rashid: And so people will have a tendency to take that to 01:01:48.253 --> 01:01:54.253 the extreme where they're not, for instance, even picking their reins up. 01:01:55.063 --> 01:01:55.303 Yeah. 01:01:55.723 --> 01:01:58.993 Mark Rashid: Because they feel that's being, that they're having, that's, you 01:01:58.993 --> 01:02:03.103 know, so they put a big loop in their reins, and that's them having soft hands. 01:02:03.673 --> 01:02:06.823 But it's not, it's just they're having a big loop in their reins. 01:02:08.113 --> 01:02:14.833 Soft hands is, is the ability to pick up the reins and feel all the way 01:02:14.833 --> 01:02:18.913 through the horse, through the reins. 01:02:19.183 --> 01:02:24.013 To me, the problem I think that a lot of folks have is that 01:02:24.943 --> 01:02:32.383 they either use too much tension pressure, or they don't use enough. 01:02:33.733 --> 01:02:41.113 And so instead of, instead of saying to somebody, just turn your reins 01:02:41.113 --> 01:02:44.563 loose, and then that's soft, that's. 01:02:45.358 --> 01:02:49.378 Well, you might be soft, but there's no structure there, there's no connection. 01:02:49.378 --> 01:02:49.618 And then of 01:02:49.618 --> 01:02:52.378 Rupert Isaacson: course, if you do move your hand, it's like an amplifying wave. 01:02:52.438 --> 01:02:52.708 Yeah. 01:02:52.798 --> 01:02:55.138 By the time it does actually hit the horse's mouth, it's 01:02:55.768 --> 01:02:56.308 Mark Rashid: a big Oh yeah. 01:02:56.308 --> 01:02:58.408 I mean, you've got so much momentum picked up. 01:02:58.678 --> 01:02:58.768 Yeah. 01:02:58.768 --> 01:03:00.778 You know, you've got three feet of rain there. 01:03:00.898 --> 01:03:01.198 Yeah. 01:03:01.378 --> 01:03:02.968 Mark Rashid: You gotta take up three feet of slack. 01:03:03.028 --> 01:03:05.968 You, it's gonna, you're just gonna magnify the issue. 01:03:06.088 --> 01:03:06.388 Yeah. 01:03:07.828 --> 01:03:10.678 Mark Rashid: So, you know, there are times where we'll say, 01:03:10.888 --> 01:03:12.838 let's, let's shorten your reins. 01:03:13.048 --> 01:03:13.138 Mm-hmm. 01:03:14.188 --> 01:03:17.758 Mark Rashid: I'm not saying get in your horse's mouth, I'm just saying get closer. 01:03:19.228 --> 01:03:23.368 And then, like we talked about earlier, we'll spend time with them 01:03:25.558 --> 01:03:30.688 feeling each other through the reigns with my, myself, maybe 01:03:30.688 --> 01:03:32.908 on one side, them on the other. 01:03:34.078 --> 01:03:38.038 And I can't tell you how many times I've heard somebody say 01:03:38.038 --> 01:03:40.348 that was, that was so subtle. 01:03:40.348 --> 01:03:45.688 I I never knew that It could be that subtle, you know, when, when we're 01:03:45.688 --> 01:03:47.938 talking about a release mm-hmm. 01:03:48.193 --> 01:03:51.988 For instance, and a release, a lot of folks have been taught 01:03:51.988 --> 01:03:53.698 to just throw the reins away. 01:03:53.998 --> 01:03:54.328 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 01:03:54.328 --> 01:03:58.198 And in fact, that's effectively what the word in English means. 01:03:58.228 --> 01:04:00.418 Almost a complete letting go. 01:04:00.658 --> 01:04:02.608 It's a deceptive word release, really. 01:04:03.178 --> 01:04:03.538 Mark Rashid: Right. 01:04:04.318 --> 01:04:09.358 But the release can be something as small as feeling Mm. 01:04:09.808 --> 01:04:11.578 The tension in a muscle. 01:04:11.788 --> 01:04:12.178 Mm-hmm. 01:04:13.003 --> 01:04:14.893 Mark Rashid: Relaxing a little bit. 01:04:15.313 --> 01:04:15.883 Hmm. 01:04:16.813 --> 01:04:19.543 Mark Rashid: And, but you can't do that. 01:04:19.543 --> 01:04:21.733 You can't feel that if you aren't there. 01:04:22.273 --> 01:04:22.693 Yeah. 01:04:22.813 --> 01:04:28.693 Mark Rashid: You can't feel that ever so slightly, that horse trying to relax 01:04:28.693 --> 01:04:30.283 that muscle, just that little bit. 01:04:30.283 --> 01:04:31.123 You can't feel it. 01:04:31.933 --> 01:04:36.583 So that's when we're talking about softness with structure, it's about 01:04:36.583 --> 01:04:45.283 actually stepping in and, and becoming part of the, part of the situation. 01:04:47.803 --> 01:04:51.403 And that's why I think one of the, the problems that, I wouldn't say 01:04:51.403 --> 01:04:55.303 it's a problem, but it's one of the things I think that folks struggle 01:04:55.303 --> 01:05:00.703 with is that they, I think that, you know, you're in a situation and what 01:05:00.703 --> 01:05:05.623 you wanna do is you wanna keep the situation at arms length and you're 01:05:05.623 --> 01:05:10.363 outside of the situation, you're putting yourself outside of the situation. 01:05:11.323 --> 01:05:15.013 But by stepping into the situation now you can become part of it. 01:05:15.133 --> 01:05:20.413 And now you have some, you know, you can offer some direction, you can, you 01:05:20.413 --> 01:05:26.083 can help when you're in, it's really difficult to do when you're outside. 01:05:28.723 --> 01:05:30.493 Not sure if that answered your question or not, but 01:05:30.553 --> 01:05:30.943 Rupert Isaacson: it does. 01:05:30.943 --> 01:05:33.403 It just raises some more questions, which I'm gonna, yeah. 01:05:35.683 --> 01:05:36.043 Chrisy. 01:05:37.753 --> 01:05:40.483 Crissi McDonald: So I'll, I'll go to the, I'll start with the. 01:05:41.218 --> 01:05:43.288 Mundane, if you will, structure. 01:05:43.558 --> 01:05:47.578 So breakfast is at eight, dojo is nine to 12. 01:05:47.583 --> 01:05:47.943 I was gonna ask 01:05:47.943 --> 01:05:49.378 Rupert Isaacson: because I'm, you know, I need to know what, yeah, 01:05:49.378 --> 01:05:52.648 Crissi McDonald: here's, here's, this is like the structure, right, of the 01:05:52.648 --> 01:05:57.088 10 day clinic, and then we have lunch from 12 to one, and then we're with 01:05:57.088 --> 01:05:59.068 our horses from about one to three 30. 01:05:59.068 --> 01:06:02.548 And then we have a meeting at the end of the day and we talk to 01:06:02.548 --> 01:06:05.578 everybody about what they learned and what they like to work on the 01:06:05.578 --> 01:06:07.738 next day, and we answer questions. 01:06:08.368 --> 01:06:09.568 So that's the structure. 01:06:09.658 --> 01:06:14.158 And Mark and I are pretty good at keeping that. 01:06:15.358 --> 01:06:19.138 The structure of the structure, we don't often run over. 01:06:19.588 --> 01:06:24.028 We keep things flowing through the day so people can have the 01:06:24.028 --> 01:06:25.348 experience they need to have. 01:06:26.938 --> 01:06:32.668 But within that, there are a billion permutations of what can happen. 01:06:33.598 --> 01:06:36.778 You know, people could be in the dojo for an hour, but then they need a break. 01:06:36.838 --> 01:06:40.168 They could be in the dojo all morning, but then they don't wanna 01:06:40.168 --> 01:06:41.578 start riding right at one o'clock. 01:06:41.578 --> 01:06:43.048 They wanna let their lunch settle. 01:06:43.858 --> 01:06:47.968 So within the structure, you know, like Mark was saying, desire is optional. 01:06:48.628 --> 01:06:53.008 What that means is, is yes, we have this schedule, but you are in no 01:06:53.008 --> 01:06:57.658 way or shape or form required to do every second of every minute 01:06:57.658 --> 01:06:59.158 of every day of that schedule. 01:06:59.518 --> 01:07:04.018 You know, the, we have 10 to 12 different people, 10 to 12 different horses. 01:07:04.858 --> 01:07:06.628 And so to me it's a lot like art. 01:07:06.718 --> 01:07:07.468 You know, you. 01:07:07.888 --> 01:07:12.628 Paint a picture and you have the structure of the, the frame, right? 01:07:12.628 --> 01:07:13.528 Or photography. 01:07:14.278 --> 01:07:16.588 But you can put anything you want on that canvas. 01:07:17.008 --> 01:07:21.058 You can throw paint at it, you can paint something like Monet. 01:07:22.108 --> 01:07:25.858 So I think structure in some sense allows us to be unstructured. 01:07:26.218 --> 01:07:30.458 It's, I think Picasso said learn the rules like an, like a pro. 01:07:30.458 --> 01:07:32.258 So you can break them like an artist. 01:07:32.858 --> 01:07:32.888 Mm. 01:07:32.888 --> 01:07:33.818 I think that's the quote. 01:07:34.478 --> 01:07:35.528 I really like that. 01:07:36.548 --> 01:07:36.938 Mm, I do too. 01:07:36.998 --> 01:07:37.118 We 01:07:37.118 --> 01:07:40.658 Crissi McDonald: learn the rules first so we can break them. 01:07:40.718 --> 01:07:43.898 That's the, ah, that I don't know. 01:07:43.898 --> 01:07:45.638 That's the joy in life really. 01:07:46.268 --> 01:07:49.568 Rupert Isaacson: W when we we're training people to do the work with 01:07:49.568 --> 01:07:53.438 autism, say what, you know, what we're saying often is, look, some this 01:07:53.678 --> 01:07:57.578 kid frequent is coming in without an understanding of top-down instruction 01:07:57.578 --> 01:08:01.448 without, and feeling somewhat lost in the world, including in their own body. 01:08:01.868 --> 01:08:05.678 So if we impose structures on them that make no sense, all that's going 01:08:05.678 --> 01:08:11.168 to do is cause amygdala, explosions and not gonna get us anything. 01:08:11.168 --> 01:08:11.438 Right. 01:08:11.898 --> 01:08:14.568 With someone who's already amygdala's, already really active. 01:08:15.258 --> 01:08:19.188 And then in the early years with what we were doing, people often criticized us 01:08:19.188 --> 01:08:20.988 saying, well, you guys have no structure. 01:08:21.738 --> 01:08:25.248 And I was like, no, we do, we have a lot of structure, but it's invisible. 01:08:25.398 --> 01:08:26.148 Meaning that 01:08:28.218 --> 01:08:30.018 my structure shouldn't be the kid's problem. 01:08:31.323 --> 01:08:34.893 Like you are coming to have a therapy session. 01:08:34.923 --> 01:08:39.273 Now, that's not a nice message for a kid because that's saying 01:08:39.273 --> 01:08:40.563 to the kid, you need therapy. 01:08:41.673 --> 01:08:42.603 There's something wrong with you. 01:08:43.653 --> 01:08:46.023 I've never yet met a kid that said, I want therapy. 01:08:46.323 --> 01:08:48.663 You know, I've met kids that say they'd like to play. 01:08:49.173 --> 01:08:50.253 So we call them play dates. 01:08:51.183 --> 01:08:51.393 Mm-hmm. 01:08:51.743 --> 01:08:55.703 So there's a, a structure right there, which is to choose a different 01:08:55.703 --> 01:09:02.213 language that sounds less shaming, I don't know, or less shit, you know. 01:09:02.513 --> 01:09:06.263 And then within that structure we have these guidelines and the 01:09:06.263 --> 01:09:07.793 first one is follow the child. 01:09:08.483 --> 01:09:11.063 And there's kind of three main ways of doing this, but 01:09:11.063 --> 01:09:12.263 without that, you have nothing. 01:09:12.503 --> 01:09:17.313 But that is a guideline that is a structure that is a compass. 01:09:17.883 --> 01:09:24.483 So, but of course, you know, following the child might mean, say the kid gets 01:09:24.483 --> 01:09:29.883 up on the horse 10 seconds and wants down again, or takes three months to 01:09:29.883 --> 01:09:32.013 get on a horse or never gets on a horse. 01:09:32.853 --> 01:09:33.423 Doesn't matter. 01:09:33.423 --> 01:09:35.013 What we're after is neuroplasticity. 01:09:35.073 --> 01:09:39.033 We can do more than horses, but if we use the horse, it's good 01:09:39.033 --> 01:09:40.083 to use it in a certain way. 01:09:40.083 --> 01:09:41.253 That seems to optimize it. 01:09:41.643 --> 01:09:42.843 So here's the structure. 01:09:43.113 --> 01:09:47.763 So I'm often trying to get the message across that a 01:09:47.763 --> 01:09:50.103 structure should be invisible. 01:09:50.163 --> 01:09:52.233 Like for example, let's look at Mark. 01:09:52.983 --> 01:09:54.603 Mark has a structure. 01:09:55.833 --> 01:10:00.123 He's got a skeleton and he's also got these muscles and he's got 01:10:00.213 --> 01:10:03.753 these arteries and veins and nervous system and a lymphatic system. 01:10:03.753 --> 01:10:06.663 And things are moving around in very kind of an ordered way. 01:10:07.083 --> 01:10:08.463 But you're not really aware of that. 01:10:08.463 --> 01:10:12.063 You're aware of Mark and, and you have a sort of an emotional aesthetic 01:10:12.063 --> 01:10:14.013 reaction to the entity of Mark. 01:10:14.193 --> 01:10:18.033 But if you look at him again, you notice, oh, he's got, look, he's got cheekbones. 01:10:18.033 --> 01:10:22.053 'cause I can see a little shadow under there and I can see that, you 01:10:22.053 --> 01:10:25.173 know, his, he's got these two eyes with a brow here and I become a 01:10:25.173 --> 01:10:28.333 bit more aware of his structure but 01:10:30.588 --> 01:10:36.258 only in sofar as it allows me to interact with this thing called 01:10:36.258 --> 01:10:38.928 Mark who can walk around and show me what to do with a horse. 01:10:38.958 --> 01:10:41.178 'cause if he didn't have this structure, he'd be sort of weird. 01:10:41.178 --> 01:10:46.758 Blobby Mark, who was sort of organs displaced here and there. 01:10:47.418 --> 01:10:48.198 Boneless chicken. 01:10:48.288 --> 01:10:49.308 Mark Rashid: Boneless chicken mark. 01:10:49.308 --> 01:10:50.538 Rupert Isaacson: Indeed, indeed. 01:10:50.598 --> 01:10:53.598 Which, you know, maybe after a long hot bath, I don't know, 01:10:53.958 --> 01:10:54.918 bottle of whiskey, but yeah. 01:10:55.788 --> 01:10:59.808 But the, then they also say, well they need boundaries. 01:10:59.838 --> 01:11:04.248 And I say, yeah, but people so often forget that or, or seem to assume 01:11:04.248 --> 01:11:06.048 that a boundary means a barrier. 01:11:07.158 --> 01:11:07.308 Mm-hmm. 01:11:07.768 --> 01:11:07.888 And 01:11:07.888 --> 01:11:09.358 Rupert Isaacson: the problem with barriers I've always found 01:11:09.358 --> 01:11:10.948 is that they, they don't work. 01:11:10.948 --> 01:11:12.298 I mean, you shut the door. 01:11:12.298 --> 01:11:13.108 I can kick it down. 01:11:13.798 --> 01:11:15.508 You get behind a wall, I can blow it up. 01:11:16.018 --> 01:11:19.348 You build a fence, I can jump it or, that's quite fun actually. 01:11:19.678 --> 01:11:20.788 Or, and I can certainly. 01:11:21.193 --> 01:11:22.993 Break it a window. 01:11:23.083 --> 01:11:23.383 Mm. 01:11:23.713 --> 01:11:25.813 Break that and probably hurt myself at the same time. 01:11:26.173 --> 01:11:31.933 So barriers almost invite the challenge of, I wanna bust that because we have 01:11:31.933 --> 01:11:37.513 this innate desire for freedom, but I feel like a, a boundary is like, say an 01:11:37.513 --> 01:11:44.833 epidermis, like this thing I've got, if as I drink more beer, it expands with me. 01:11:45.223 --> 01:11:48.553 When I go on the dry for a little bit, it sort of contracts with me a bit. 01:11:49.023 --> 01:11:51.423 If I cut it, it heals itself. 01:11:51.423 --> 01:11:55.023 If I go out on a hot day, it will let enough moisture through to cool me, 01:11:55.023 --> 01:11:58.473 but if I go out on a cold day, it will close off enough to keep my heating. 01:11:59.433 --> 01:12:05.973 But it's very porous and cell membrane, you know, and elastic to cope with things. 01:12:05.973 --> 01:12:06.213 And 01:12:08.433 --> 01:12:12.093 of course, in the horse world as well as in the therapy world, we're often told no, 01:12:12.093 --> 01:12:14.073 there are these very, very rigid rules. 01:12:14.193 --> 01:12:17.913 And even within dressage, you know, the, the first, they've got the training 01:12:17.913 --> 01:12:19.263 scale, six point training scale. 01:12:19.533 --> 01:12:20.493 The first one is rhythm. 01:12:20.493 --> 01:12:21.868 Everyone agrees on that, blah, blah. 01:12:21.873 --> 01:12:24.123 And then everyone forgets the second one. 01:12:24.393 --> 01:12:25.983 The second one is relaxation. 01:12:26.283 --> 01:12:27.783 It's like, where did that go? 01:12:29.223 --> 01:12:29.343 You know? 01:12:29.343 --> 01:12:29.553 Yes. 01:12:30.033 --> 01:12:31.683 Where did that go? 01:12:32.303 --> 01:12:36.653 Yeah, well, I can find it more easily in the forest than I can in the arena. 01:12:36.653 --> 01:12:37.283 So maybe, 01:12:38.093 --> 01:12:38.453 maybe 01:12:38.453 --> 01:12:40.823 Rupert Isaacson: it's there, but it's certainly not there 01:12:40.823 --> 01:12:42.023 without someone yelling at me. 01:12:42.383 --> 01:12:45.503 So it's, it's, it's intriguing to me that you seem to have come to a 01:12:45.503 --> 01:12:48.503 somewhat similar conclusion where you, you, you give a framework, 01:12:49.373 --> 01:12:56.123 but within that framework you are endlessly flexible and at the same 01:12:56.123 --> 01:12:57.413 time you want to be of service. 01:12:57.413 --> 01:13:01.703 So if somebody does come in saying, I'm really having problems with my cancer 01:13:01.703 --> 01:13:07.223 transition or something like that, you, you do feel that sense of okay, well I 01:13:07.223 --> 01:13:12.083 want to honor that need and desire and I would like for you to leave after 10 days 01:13:12.953 --> 01:13:14.483 feeling that you have the tool for that. 01:13:17.303 --> 01:13:18.353 Dance me through. 01:13:18.383 --> 01:13:24.743 I think, 'cause I think a lot of people when they're trainers beginning in 01:13:25.043 --> 01:13:29.003 this, what field as well as therapists, they fe put a lot of pressure on 01:13:29.003 --> 01:13:32.033 themselves to give that value. 01:13:32.453 --> 01:13:37.053 And again, that comes from a good place that comes from an honorable place. 01:13:37.053 --> 01:13:39.093 But of course it puts on more anxiety and more stress. 01:13:39.093 --> 01:13:47.583 And so when you are giving people stuff to work on and then going away, of course 01:13:47.583 --> 01:13:51.273 as we know, sometimes they can work on it in a way that can compound the problem. 01:13:52.293 --> 01:13:54.363 And then you maybe come back to them 20 minutes later. 01:13:54.363 --> 01:13:59.133 You could find them in a state of disorder or you could find them in a 01:13:59.133 --> 01:14:00.603 state of, oh yes, I've achieved it. 01:14:03.123 --> 01:14:04.503 You made it sound very easy. 01:14:05.583 --> 01:14:06.693 It's not easy. 01:14:07.263 --> 01:14:08.343 We know it's not easy. 01:14:08.703 --> 01:14:10.353 So how do you, how do you do that? 01:14:10.353 --> 01:14:13.533 How do you, how do you show somebody something per perhaps, quite 01:14:13.533 --> 01:14:18.393 complex, leave them alone for a bit and come back and have faith that 01:14:19.323 --> 01:14:24.898 Yeah, they've probably, they're probably on a positive trajectory. 01:14:26.188 --> 01:14:27.118 It's quite intriguing. 01:14:27.118 --> 01:14:29.788 Please talk us through it, how you do that. 01:14:31.688 --> 01:14:35.948 Mark Rashid: For myself, I don't let people get off the track. 01:14:36.368 --> 01:14:36.758 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:14:38.048 --> 01:14:43.148 Mark Rashid: So if I, for instance, if I'm, I work with somebody for 10, 15 01:14:43.148 --> 01:14:50.888 minutes during that time, I may explain something and I will ask them if they 01:14:50.888 --> 01:14:53.648 understand what I, what I explained. 01:14:55.028 --> 01:15:01.268 They may say that they understand they wanna please you, and the 01:15:01.598 --> 01:15:03.308 their face says, I don't get it. 01:15:03.728 --> 01:15:04.028 Yeah. 01:15:05.138 --> 01:15:07.448 And I will oftentimes, I'll say that, 01:15:08.648 --> 01:15:09.008 okay, 01:15:09.068 --> 01:15:12.668 Mark Rashid: you know, in a, kind of, in a, in a joking way, I'll say, well, I, I 01:15:12.668 --> 01:15:14.948 heard you say yes, but your face says no. 01:15:15.398 --> 01:15:20.348 So which one of these is, well, I don't really get that one part. 01:15:20.408 --> 01:15:22.088 Okay, all right, well, let's go over it. 01:15:22.928 --> 01:15:23.198 Right. 01:15:23.708 --> 01:15:28.508 And, and we explain to people that it's important that if you're 01:15:28.508 --> 01:15:33.518 not getting something, make sure to let one of us know, because. 01:15:33.998 --> 01:15:38.198 It doesn't help for you to be a little bit lost, then get off track 01:15:38.198 --> 01:15:42.338 and then, you know, and then we spend three days trying to get you back. 01:15:43.028 --> 01:15:48.978 But in general, what I will do is I will usually we're either horseback 01:15:49.008 --> 01:15:51.378 or on foot, depending on the day. 01:15:51.978 --> 01:15:56.898 And so what we might work with somebody, they say, they get it, looks 01:15:56.898 --> 01:16:00.048 like they get it, they'll go off. 01:16:01.398 --> 01:16:03.708 And while I'm working with the next person, I will be 01:16:03.708 --> 01:16:05.298 keeping an eye on that person. 01:16:05.718 --> 01:16:06.018 Okay. 01:16:07.068 --> 01:16:10.578 Mark Rashid: And if it looks like we're getting off track, I will excuse 01:16:10.578 --> 01:16:13.038 myself from this person and go back. 01:16:13.938 --> 01:16:22.128 Or if there's somebody closer that isn't doing something, I might, you 01:16:22.128 --> 01:16:28.038 know, say their name, one of the instructors, and then I will say the name 01:16:28.068 --> 01:16:32.208 of the person and that's all I'll say. 01:16:32.808 --> 01:16:36.228 And then that person will go directly to that, that rider. 01:16:37.488 --> 01:16:45.228 So, we have ways that we kind of work around those things so that, so that 01:16:45.228 --> 01:16:48.678 people never really get off track too far. 01:16:50.058 --> 01:16:54.138 We try not to let that happen too much if we can help it. 01:16:54.618 --> 01:16:54.948 Yeah. 01:16:55.248 --> 01:16:55.848 No, that's fair. 01:16:56.988 --> 01:16:57.438 Chrissy. 01:17:01.183 --> 01:17:03.793 Crissi McDonald: For me it comes down to the 01:17:06.283 --> 01:17:10.663 innate belief that we are all capable. 01:17:11.803 --> 01:17:12.103 Hmm. 01:17:12.283 --> 01:17:14.863 Crissi McDonald: And we can all learn. 01:17:16.033 --> 01:17:16.123 Hmm. 01:17:16.123 --> 01:17:19.783 I, I, I just, I have such faith, especially people 01:17:19.813 --> 01:17:20.983 who show up to our clinics. 01:17:21.763 --> 01:17:24.673 They, for the most part, are so open. 01:17:25.483 --> 01:17:27.793 They come, they wanna learn something. 01:17:28.213 --> 01:17:28.303 Mm-hmm. 01:17:28.304 --> 01:17:33.763 Maybe they have an issue, maybe they don't, but that desire to improve 01:17:33.763 --> 01:17:38.383 themselves so that they can have a better relationship with their horse, Rupert. 01:17:38.383 --> 01:17:40.903 That, that's what keeps me going. 01:17:41.383 --> 01:17:41.473 Mm-hmm. 01:17:41.623 --> 01:17:41.803 That 01:17:42.013 --> 01:17:44.713 Crissi McDonald: is people showing up saying, you know, I'm doing this 01:17:44.713 --> 01:17:49.453 thing and I know I'm doing this thing and, but I don't know how to not do 01:17:49.453 --> 01:17:54.073 this thing and I'm hoping for some ideas, or I'm hoping for some help. 01:17:55.183 --> 01:18:00.943 And so, you know, when you, you work a lot, it sounds, I you probably work 01:18:00.943 --> 01:18:02.353 with adults too, but you also work. 01:18:02.353 --> 01:18:02.438 I do. 01:18:02.443 --> 01:18:03.493 You probably work with more kids? 01:18:03.553 --> 01:18:04.513 Way more kids. 01:18:04.783 --> 01:18:05.023 I, I'd say 01:18:05.023 --> 01:18:07.153 Rupert Isaacson: honestly, it's, it's half and half because we 01:18:07.153 --> 01:18:12.223 have this other program called ta, which is all adults, so, yeah. 01:18:12.223 --> 01:18:12.224 Okay. 01:18:12.229 --> 01:18:12.478 Yeah. 01:18:13.213 --> 01:18:13.483 Crissi McDonald: Yeah. 01:18:13.483 --> 01:18:14.983 Adult learning is very different. 01:18:15.223 --> 01:18:15.553 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:18:16.318 --> 01:18:19.318 Crissi McDonald: We have so much more internal baggage, you know, like 01:18:19.468 --> 01:18:23.998 anxiety and what comparing ourselves and 01:18:24.088 --> 01:18:25.918 Rupert Isaacson: why is a thumb not coming on my screen. 01:18:25.918 --> 01:18:27.118 As you said, we all have baggage. 01:18:30.958 --> 01:18:32.068 It's just, yeah. 01:18:32.068 --> 01:18:33.718 It's, we have all these speed bumps in 01:18:33.718 --> 01:18:34.528 Crissi McDonald: ourselves, right? 01:18:34.528 --> 01:18:40.798 We're like, oh, I've been riding for 20 years, but I can't do X or whatever it is. 01:18:40.798 --> 01:18:45.298 It's, it's a lot of what Mark and I do is just tell people, you know, you're okay. 01:18:45.628 --> 01:18:45.808 Yeah. 01:18:45.808 --> 01:18:46.948 Crissi McDonald: Your horse is fine. 01:18:47.428 --> 01:18:48.958 Here's some things that we can tweak. 01:18:49.498 --> 01:18:49.708 Yeah. 01:18:49.708 --> 01:18:49.768 You 01:18:49.768 --> 01:18:51.658 Crissi McDonald: know, maybe get your horse some body work. 01:18:51.658 --> 01:18:53.218 Maybe you get some body work. 01:18:53.758 --> 01:18:57.598 You know, when it, when it comes right down to it, we create an atmosphere 01:18:57.598 --> 01:19:00.028 of it, it's going to be fine. 01:19:00.028 --> 01:19:01.798 It's, we'll, we'll figure it out. 01:19:02.218 --> 01:19:04.678 Whatever it is, we're here to help. 01:19:05.728 --> 01:19:08.758 And I, I have a lot of faith in that. 01:19:08.968 --> 01:19:15.718 Does that mean that sometimes after I'm teaching I go, I don't think I made a 01:19:16.378 --> 01:19:22.078 damn bit of difference that I, I will, I will have days when I give my best 01:19:22.078 --> 01:19:23.308 and it doesn't feel like it's enough. 01:19:23.308 --> 01:19:23.368 Hmm. 01:19:24.148 --> 01:19:27.508 And those are the days when I really have to practice. 01:19:28.948 --> 01:19:31.228 If they didn't get it from me, they will have gotten it from one 01:19:31.288 --> 01:19:36.688 another instructor or mark that it is not solely my job to give them 01:19:36.688 --> 01:19:38.398 the perfect piece of information. 01:19:38.458 --> 01:19:39.658 It's my job to show up. 01:19:39.658 --> 01:19:39.748 Mm-hmm. 01:19:40.378 --> 01:19:43.388 Rupert Isaacson: if you're a horse nerd, and if you're on this podcast, 01:19:43.788 --> 01:19:48.688 I'm guessing you are, then you've probably also always wondered a little 01:19:48.688 --> 01:19:50.938 bit about the old master system. 01:19:51.403 --> 01:19:52.713 of dressage training. 01:19:52.753 --> 01:20:01.323 If you go and check out our Helios Harmony program, we outline there step by step 01:20:01.393 --> 01:20:07.673 exactly how to train your horse from the ground to become the dressage horse 01:20:07.683 --> 01:20:14.203 of your dreams in a way that absolutely serves the physical, mental and emotional 01:20:14.253 --> 01:20:17.023 well being of the horse and the rider. 01:20:17.083 --> 01:20:17.823 Intrigued? 01:20:18.023 --> 01:20:18.883 Like to know more? 01:20:19.753 --> 01:20:22.583 Go to our website, Helios Harmony. 01:20:24.283 --> 01:20:25.973 Check out the free introduction course. 01:20:26.533 --> 01:20:27.053 Take it from there. 01:20:27.557 --> 01:20:29.387 That does help, I guess that. 01:20:29.942 --> 01:20:31.922 Brings us to the question of tribe. 01:20:32.802 --> 01:20:35.312 You know, one of the things when I'm, when I'm teaching the horse 01:20:35.312 --> 01:20:38.972 training stuff, the dressy stuff, is I point out to people that that 01:20:38.972 --> 01:20:40.922 whole system was evolved by tribes. 01:20:41.612 --> 01:20:42.932 Tribes on the step. 01:20:43.682 --> 01:20:50.132 And it was families, you know, grand and granddad are directing it. 01:20:50.462 --> 01:20:53.132 Mom and dad are sort of doing it and the kids are helping. 01:20:53.912 --> 01:20:56.972 And it's a cyclical thing, gen intergenerational. 01:20:57.002 --> 01:20:57.092 Mm-hmm. 01:20:57.332 --> 01:21:03.002 And if one goes to, so we now have this, this, this program called riots 01:21:03.002 --> 01:21:04.862 and, and, and creating a riots club. 01:21:05.402 --> 01:21:10.742 Our IATS riding is a team slash tribal sport. 01:21:11.292 --> 01:21:17.262 And that all of the fancy stuff, if you go to any of the sort of famous 01:21:17.262 --> 01:21:21.042 dressage schools in the world, what you'll see is a bunch of blokes 01:21:21.432 --> 01:21:24.252 now also women working together. 01:21:24.252 --> 01:21:27.672 It's usually two to three per horse at a time with the young horses. 01:21:28.092 --> 01:21:31.272 Because one person can take the front part, one person can take the back 01:21:31.272 --> 01:21:34.242 part, one person can take the middle, and it helps the horse to understand 01:21:34.272 --> 01:21:35.832 more fluidly and quick, quicker. 01:21:35.832 --> 01:21:40.122 But that's just simply the old way off, the step now being done in fancy clothes. 01:21:40.632 --> 01:21:44.362 And when I realized that I say, oh my gosh, of course. 01:21:44.842 --> 01:21:47.122 So if you, if someone comes to my say, well, I can't say who 01:21:47.122 --> 01:21:48.322 trained any one of our horses. 01:21:48.322 --> 01:21:53.982 I, I, I know that we did, but there is a conception as you know, I. 01:21:54.597 --> 01:21:57.327 Within the horse world that it, the responsibility is 01:21:57.327 --> 01:21:58.557 on you as the horse trainer. 01:21:59.097 --> 01:22:05.007 It's a lot of pressure to somehow train your horse when in the ancient 01:22:05.007 --> 01:22:08.277 world, no, no, no one did it like that. 01:22:08.637 --> 01:22:10.947 It just didn't happen that way. 01:22:11.067 --> 01:22:14.907 And that the more effective you get at it where you're like, 01:22:14.907 --> 01:22:16.557 well, I guess I could do that. 01:22:16.557 --> 01:22:16.797 Yeah. 01:22:16.797 --> 01:22:17.517 If I had to. 01:22:17.727 --> 01:22:20.097 You realize that's a last resort, not a first resort. 01:22:20.967 --> 01:22:25.097 But it's very difficult because people are in isolation and even if they're 01:22:25.097 --> 01:22:31.007 in a, a, a boarding barn, they might be in isolation, one can be in isolation 01:22:31.007 --> 01:22:32.177 and still be surrounded by people. 01:22:32.777 --> 01:22:37.967 It seems that what you are doing is actually giving people that tribal context 01:22:38.477 --> 01:22:41.837 and where we began, I'm not saying it's the only thing you're doing, but one 01:22:41.837 --> 01:22:44.787 of the great things you're doing is that where we began this conversation 01:22:44.787 --> 01:22:50.307 with softness, it's easier to feel soft when you're getting oxytocin and 01:22:50.307 --> 01:22:53.907 support from a good group of community. 01:22:53.912 --> 01:23:00.917 You, you mentioned community, you know, and connection again, is this 01:23:00.917 --> 01:23:04.917 explicit in, in the teachings when pe I know you say don't wanna give people 01:23:04.917 --> 01:23:10.467 homework, but they are gonna go away, you know, back to that real world. 01:23:10.917 --> 01:23:13.317 And often that real world is somewhat isolated. 01:23:13.317 --> 01:23:13.617 Right. 01:23:14.007 --> 01:23:16.167 And what they found with you is that connection. 01:23:17.137 --> 01:23:17.197 I. 01:23:19.087 --> 01:23:22.357 Do you talk about that and, and, and how to find that? 01:23:23.077 --> 01:23:25.687 Mark do you wanna wanna kick off with that? 01:23:25.837 --> 01:23:27.697 Because a lot of people do feel they're on their own and 01:23:27.697 --> 01:23:28.687 that sort of are on their own. 01:23:29.707 --> 01:23:29.977 Yeah. 01:23:30.037 --> 01:23:30.487 Mark Rashid: Well, 01:23:32.707 --> 01:23:33.007 yeah. 01:23:33.007 --> 01:23:35.857 I mean, the, a lot of the folks that come to us 01:23:37.987 --> 01:23:39.217 do feel that way. 01:23:40.237 --> 01:23:46.357 And, you know, when they come, they come in and everybody's perfect strangers. 01:23:46.687 --> 01:23:51.367 Well, nobody's perfect, but they're, you know, they're, nobody knows 01:23:51.367 --> 01:23:56.857 the, any, anybody else when they come in and, you know, and I'm, I'm 01:23:56.857 --> 01:24:00.787 sure that you experience this too, but by the time they leave, you 01:24:00.787 --> 01:24:02.767 know, they've got lifelong friends. 01:24:02.827 --> 01:24:03.037 Yeah. 01:24:03.037 --> 01:24:04.567 And they stay connected that way. 01:24:04.717 --> 01:24:04.987 Yeah. 01:24:05.437 --> 01:24:11.797 And that's, you know, they'll be, at lunchtime, we all have lunch together 01:24:11.797 --> 01:24:17.347 and, you know, they'll be, they'll be putting, you know, their emails in 01:24:17.347 --> 01:24:19.687 a group thing, you know, and Right. 01:24:19.687 --> 01:24:20.497 So the tribe 01:24:20.647 --> 01:24:21.907 Rupert Isaacson: finds itself basically. 01:24:21.967 --> 01:24:22.357 Yeah. 01:24:22.687 --> 01:24:23.077 Mark Rashid: Yeah. 01:24:23.137 --> 01:24:29.137 That is, that is not something that we even think about doing when they come 01:24:29.137 --> 01:24:32.707 in and it's just organically happens. 01:24:33.067 --> 01:24:33.367 Mm-hmm. 01:24:33.697 --> 01:24:36.967 Mark Rashid: And I think it helps that, you know, it's, we're talking about 01:24:36.967 --> 01:24:40.057 like-minded people that are coming in. 01:24:40.057 --> 01:24:46.087 These are folks that maybe, like you say, felt isolated and then. 01:24:46.687 --> 01:24:53.377 You know, it reminds me a lot of the, the summit that we were all at Yeah. 01:24:53.437 --> 01:24:59.617 With Warwick Summit where we, we all came in as individuals and we left as friends. 01:24:59.827 --> 01:25:00.127 Mm-hmm. 01:25:00.817 --> 01:25:06.007 And you know, and we've stayed in contact and, and that kind of thing. 01:25:06.007 --> 01:25:13.567 And, and, you know, I, I know for myself, I kind of felt isolated in what I was 01:25:13.567 --> 01:25:18.307 doing and how we, how I was doing it, and have felt that way for a long time. 01:25:18.667 --> 01:25:18.937 Yeah. 01:25:19.177 --> 01:25:24.067 Mark Rashid: But after that, it felt like, you know, I, I don't 01:25:24.067 --> 01:25:26.047 feel that way so much anymore. 01:25:26.227 --> 01:25:26.497 Hmm. 01:25:27.277 --> 01:25:34.537 And so on a, you know, it happens even at that level, you know, the 01:25:34.537 --> 01:25:37.717 kind of, the level that we are at, if you want to call it that. 01:25:38.617 --> 01:25:41.437 And, but it's that, it's that connection. 01:25:41.437 --> 01:25:48.637 It's that want or, or need to be around like-minded people. 01:25:48.967 --> 01:25:49.057 Yeah. 01:25:49.567 --> 01:25:52.507 Mark Rashid: Even though they may be, somebody might be isolated, may be 01:25:52.507 --> 01:25:56.587 living, we had a gal at one of the clinics that was living on a little 01:25:56.587 --> 01:26:04.327 piece of property on the Mexico border by herself, nobody around for miles. 01:26:05.257 --> 01:26:09.637 And she came in and, and she felt so much better because there 01:26:09.637 --> 01:26:10.897 were people she could talk to. 01:26:11.257 --> 01:26:11.377 Yeah. 01:26:12.217 --> 01:26:13.582 You know, so I. 01:26:13.972 --> 01:26:20.782 It's, I think it's a byproduct of, you know, I know for us, you 01:26:20.782 --> 01:26:23.872 know, we're just trying to offer some kindness to people and Mm. 01:26:23.962 --> 01:26:27.772 And hope that you know that it makes a difference. 01:26:28.882 --> 01:26:31.222 Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting that you say that, and you say that 01:26:31.642 --> 01:26:33.922 with a shrug of your shoulders as if, well, you know, that's all we do. 01:26:33.922 --> 01:26:39.352 It should be sort of obvious, but that is not the norm. 01:26:40.522 --> 01:26:46.642 Horse training, the, the world of it, it, it, kindness is not an explicit 01:26:49.432 --> 01:26:50.812 ethic on the training scale. 01:26:51.622 --> 01:26:56.062 People would say, it might say, oh, well, that, that should be implicit, but 01:26:56.062 --> 01:26:58.792 of course it's not because we inherit the whole thing from the military model 01:26:59.092 --> 01:27:03.142 where of course he screamed at people and made them fall off because that's how 01:27:03.142 --> 01:27:05.362 you prepare them for stress in battle. 01:27:05.362 --> 01:27:08.152 So your sergeant gets in your face and screams at you. 01:27:08.152 --> 01:27:12.532 If you're an infant in infantry and your sergeant yells at you and makes you fall 01:27:12.532 --> 01:27:18.082 off if you're in the cavalry because they're trying to train you for that. 01:27:18.772 --> 01:27:23.872 We've inherited it and e and it's, it's subtly there through so much of 01:27:23.872 --> 01:27:26.602 the, and not just through the horse world, through the therapy world too, 01:27:26.602 --> 01:27:31.312 I feel, because it's, because the hierarchies of hospitals, medicine, 01:27:33.052 --> 01:27:35.872 psychiatry there's a power structure. 01:27:36.277 --> 01:27:36.847 And 01:27:39.577 --> 01:27:40.837 so the fact that you say 01:27:43.297 --> 01:27:47.497 we are just off trying to offer some kindness that's 01:27:47.497 --> 01:27:49.057 actually quite revolutionary. 01:27:51.607 --> 01:27:54.037 Sort of a bit of an act of rebellion, really 01:27:56.167 --> 01:27:56.707 seriously. 01:27:57.937 --> 01:27:59.767 Mark Rashid: Well, it's, it's what I grew up with. 01:28:01.597 --> 01:28:06.547 You know, I, since I was a kid working with horses, that's what I grew up with. 01:28:06.547 --> 01:28:12.097 I grew up with somebody offering kindness, not just to the horses, but 01:28:12.097 --> 01:28:21.517 to the people and, you know, so that is what I've endeavored to, to do Yeah. 01:28:21.562 --> 01:28:23.017 In, in my career. 01:28:23.257 --> 01:28:26.167 And, um Hmm. 01:28:26.527 --> 01:28:29.647 You know, and it, I've found that it works. 01:28:31.297 --> 01:28:31.627 So, 01:28:34.417 --> 01:28:35.587 Chrisy, did you have anything? 01:28:35.652 --> 01:28:35.942 Yeah, 01:28:41.407 --> 01:28:42.157 Crissi McDonald: I love this. 01:28:42.257 --> 01:28:50.267 Talk about tribe and community because it's not in my consciousness 01:28:50.967 --> 01:28:52.227 what little I know about it. 01:28:52.227 --> 01:28:58.377 I've probably read in your books, Rupert, but I like the idea. 01:28:59.187 --> 01:28:59.217 I. 01:28:59.217 --> 01:29:03.672 That because I know as people, we are community connection. 01:29:03.672 --> 01:29:04.302 Tribal 01:29:05.382 --> 01:29:05.502 Yeah. 01:29:05.532 --> 01:29:07.782 Crissi McDonald: Beings, no matter how we insist. 01:29:07.782 --> 01:29:08.112 Yeah. 01:29:08.592 --> 01:29:11.112 Even if we live in a high rise in New York, we're, we 01:29:11.112 --> 01:29:14.212 can't escape our evolution. 01:29:14.602 --> 01:29:14.662 Yeah. 01:29:14.662 --> 01:29:16.102 And, and how we're put together. 01:29:16.852 --> 01:29:21.172 And I'm really enjoying this discussion about how, you know, we 01:29:21.172 --> 01:29:26.032 create community or we create this tribe even if it's only for 10 days. 01:29:26.752 --> 01:29:31.552 Well, sometimes those connections last for years between people and, you know, 01:29:31.552 --> 01:29:32.962 mark and I have nothing to do with that. 01:29:32.962 --> 01:29:35.842 That's the, the people coming together and finding each other. 01:29:36.322 --> 01:29:42.022 And that is another favorite part of my job is watching friendships form from 01:29:42.022 --> 01:29:44.002 people who never would've met otherwise. 01:29:44.627 --> 01:29:46.822 You know, you have someone from California and someone from 01:29:46.942 --> 01:29:48.772 Vermont, and now they're friends. 01:29:49.282 --> 01:29:50.152 I mean, we need that. 01:29:50.512 --> 01:29:51.742 We need that in the world. 01:29:52.102 --> 01:29:58.672 And so to me, yes, it's a horse clinic and it's also more than that. 01:29:59.992 --> 01:30:00.232 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:30:00.232 --> 01:30:02.872 It's interesting you were talking earlier about showing up and saying, well, 01:30:02.872 --> 01:30:05.242 what, what does my horse need today? 01:30:05.392 --> 01:30:06.592 You know, can I do that? 01:30:07.292 --> 01:30:10.442 And now we're at what does the human need today? 01:30:11.372 --> 01:30:11.702 Mm-hmm. 01:30:11.852 --> 01:30:12.782 Rupert Isaacson: And maybe 01:30:14.852 --> 01:30:21.962 for the people who are not currently at a Mark and Chrissy clinic or sitting 01:30:21.962 --> 01:30:25.052 around the transfers in the Kalahari. 01:30:26.087 --> 01:30:27.617 Perhaps the question then is, 01:30:29.897 --> 01:30:36.887 how can the horse and this equestrian life serve you? 01:30:36.917 --> 01:30:39.497 You know, this thing of what do you need today? 01:30:40.487 --> 01:30:47.777 So, for example, I often think I need, well, I used to often think that I 01:30:47.777 --> 01:30:54.797 needed to go and work on something with my horse, but I always knew in 01:30:54.797 --> 01:30:58.847 the back of my mind that if I went out for a trail ride and popped a fence 01:30:58.847 --> 01:31:00.827 or two, I would feel really good. 01:31:02.147 --> 01:31:06.737 And if I did this difficult technical thing, I might or might not. 01:31:08.117 --> 01:31:12.197 And I made a separation in my mind between those two things. 01:31:13.577 --> 01:31:15.227 And then I realized that's stupid. 01:31:15.317 --> 01:31:18.467 Why can't I do the technical thing on the trail? 01:31:18.497 --> 01:31:22.637 And why can't I bring a sense of the trail into the arena? 01:31:22.997 --> 01:31:26.117 So, and again, it was autism that helped me with this. 01:31:26.157 --> 01:31:30.437 We were working in Ireland in with this amazing man called David 01:31:30.437 --> 01:31:34.547 Doyle, who I hope you meet one day, who is also an autism dad, who's, 01:31:36.832 --> 01:31:39.917 I, I feel he's the modern incarnation of the Wizard. 01:31:39.917 --> 01:31:41.807 Merlin basically does amazing things. 01:31:41.807 --> 01:31:41.808 Mm-hmm. 01:31:41.987 --> 01:31:45.917 And he started this place called Li Skin at Farm based first around his daughter. 01:31:45.917 --> 01:31:48.197 And it's grown into a huge, wonderful thing. 01:31:48.857 --> 01:31:55.327 And, we, the arena got built and we began to fantasize about how we 01:31:55.327 --> 01:32:01.387 could make the arena over to bring nature inside on days where the 01:32:01.387 --> 01:32:02.977 weather was just really, really rough. 01:32:02.977 --> 01:32:04.387 And okay, we're gonna work inside. 01:32:04.867 --> 01:32:10.477 So we came up with the idea of buying trees and having forest that you 01:32:10.477 --> 01:32:16.027 could set up in the arena, you could bring it in on hand carts and the 01:32:16.027 --> 01:32:19.807 kids could even, or the adults could create the forest as they wished. 01:32:20.557 --> 01:32:24.457 And then you could ride in this forest and if it was Christmas, you could 01:32:24.457 --> 01:32:25.897 Christmas trees, you know, whatever. 01:32:26.347 --> 01:32:28.657 And then you could dismantle it just like you would your jumps, 01:32:28.687 --> 01:32:30.307 you know, and take 'em outside. 01:32:30.307 --> 01:32:31.687 And there they are. 01:32:31.687 --> 01:32:34.627 They sit along the side of the arena, so they look quite nice along the wall. 01:32:35.287 --> 01:32:38.107 And we thought, oh, this is a no brainer. 01:32:39.097 --> 01:32:42.427 And then we went from there to, oh, but what if the arena was a beach, you 01:32:42.427 --> 01:32:47.197 know, and setting up couches and throw, throw down a rug and having a little 01:32:47.197 --> 01:32:51.817 cast iron thing we could put a fire in and did it, you know, while horsey 01:32:51.817 --> 01:32:55.627 stuff or therapy stuff is going on around and, oh, this is a no brainer. 01:32:57.817 --> 01:33:01.117 And then we went out to teach it and it was amazing the 01:33:01.117 --> 01:33:03.487 resistance we got with that one. 01:33:03.862 --> 01:33:04.822 It was really interesting. 01:33:04.822 --> 01:33:08.122 It's like, wow, here is like, it is guaranteed happiness. 01:33:08.122 --> 01:33:09.322 It's gonna make you feel good. 01:33:09.382 --> 01:33:12.772 It's just gonna make you feel good to get some trees and put them in the arena. 01:33:12.772 --> 01:33:13.342 Just try it. 01:33:13.342 --> 01:33:14.842 It's, it makes you happy. 01:33:14.842 --> 01:33:20.392 It's hard not to or to put a couch in there and lounge around on it, you 01:33:20.392 --> 01:33:24.142 know, while someone else is lunging up there or helping a kid down there. 01:33:24.142 --> 01:33:25.102 Just try it. 01:33:25.582 --> 01:33:29.002 So it was very interesting and what I realized was that we do actually 01:33:29.002 --> 01:33:30.952 stand in the way of our own happiness. 01:33:31.252 --> 01:33:34.222 A lot, a lot, a lot, a lot. 01:33:34.792 --> 01:33:41.182 And when you, so you create tribe, you do this tribe in nature. 01:33:42.232 --> 01:33:46.462 There you are, as you say, explicitly in your own mind offering kindness. 01:33:48.742 --> 01:33:53.602 When you find people arguing against their own happiness, which I'm sure 01:33:53.602 --> 01:33:59.752 they do, despite the framework that they've come into, how can they not? 01:33:59.752 --> 01:34:07.432 Because it's, it's a, how do you help people to not talk 01:34:07.432 --> 01:34:08.992 against their own happiness? 01:34:11.632 --> 01:34:12.742 Mark Rashid: Misery is optional. 01:34:12.922 --> 01:34:13.792 Rupert Isaacson: Misery is optional. 01:34:14.452 --> 01:34:16.492 But you, what if someone's taking that option? 01:34:18.322 --> 01:34:19.312 Mark Rashid: Misery is optional. 01:34:21.142 --> 01:34:25.072 That's the thing is that we're, we're here to help. 01:34:26.932 --> 01:34:29.662 And some people. 01:34:31.642 --> 01:34:33.382 Aren't in a place where they can accept it. 01:34:33.742 --> 01:34:34.132 Mm-hmm. 01:34:35.572 --> 01:34:38.572 Mark Rashid: So we might let them 01:34:40.732 --> 01:34:42.112 do what they need to do. 01:34:42.892 --> 01:34:45.592 It's 10 days, so we aren't in any rush. 01:34:46.342 --> 01:34:46.882 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 01:34:47.152 --> 01:34:48.742 You have time for an evolution, I guess. 01:34:48.742 --> 01:34:48.982 Yeah. 01:34:49.132 --> 01:34:49.582 Mark Rashid: Yeah. 01:34:49.882 --> 01:34:50.152 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:34:50.212 --> 01:34:54.802 Mark Rashid: And if we don't push on it a lot more times than not, I don't, 01:34:55.732 --> 01:34:59.152 I can't really think of anybody. 01:34:59.152 --> 01:35:03.892 Chrissy might be able to think of somebody where they, where they 01:35:03.892 --> 01:35:08.332 went away, not in a better place. 01:35:08.362 --> 01:35:08.782 Mm-hmm. 01:35:10.972 --> 01:35:12.682 Mark Rashid: I can't think of anybody. 01:35:12.682 --> 01:35:16.402 I'm sure there is, but I can't think of anybody right off hand. 01:35:17.392 --> 01:35:23.452 Most of the people we see are return people, you know, either coming back 01:35:23.452 --> 01:35:26.572 to improve what they've already done or they're bringing another horse that 01:35:26.572 --> 01:35:28.102 they're struggling with or whatever. 01:35:28.852 --> 01:35:36.292 So in situations, oftentimes we just, and we kind of make light of it, you know? 01:35:36.412 --> 01:35:40.882 We might even say that to somebody if they're, if they're really struggling 01:35:40.887 --> 01:35:44.032 and they're kind of bumping up against their, their themselves, you know, we 01:35:44.032 --> 01:35:49.162 might even just, you know, like in a meeting or something, somebody might 01:35:49.162 --> 01:35:53.482 just say, well, mis misery's optional, you know, it's whatever, you know. 01:35:54.442 --> 01:36:00.832 We, and by making light of it, a lot of times people come to their 01:36:00.832 --> 01:36:04.372 own decision that I'm, you know, maybe I'm being a little, maybe 01:36:04.372 --> 01:36:06.442 I'm getting in my own way here. 01:36:07.642 --> 01:36:11.692 And then they're able to kind of open up and feel a little better. 01:36:12.472 --> 01:36:18.712 And we've, that doesn't happen very often, but when it does, it's, it's 01:36:18.712 --> 01:36:20.962 usually seems to just smooth itself out. 01:36:22.462 --> 01:36:22.732 I don't know. 01:36:22.852 --> 01:36:28.012 Chrissy, do you have anything to that you would say about that? 01:36:29.557 --> 01:36:35.437 Crissi McDonald: I think that, I think the same thing that most of the 01:36:35.437 --> 01:36:42.517 people who come to us leave in a, in a lighter place than when they arrived. 01:36:43.807 --> 01:36:47.467 You know, and we do watch a fair amount of people beat themselves 01:36:47.467 --> 01:36:50.437 up or be hard on themselves. 01:36:50.437 --> 01:36:53.257 This is so interesting that you mentioned the military background and 01:36:53.257 --> 01:37:00.277 that, you know, we have to be mean and bullying in order to prepare for war. 01:37:00.367 --> 01:37:05.917 And we've taken part of that and injected it into training people 01:37:05.917 --> 01:37:07.537 who will probably never go to war. 01:37:07.597 --> 01:37:08.977 Horses who will never go to war. 01:37:10.117 --> 01:37:12.157 But that war still comes with some people. 01:37:12.247 --> 01:37:13.987 They, they come at war with themselves. 01:37:13.987 --> 01:37:18.847 And so it's hard, it's hard not to be at war with their horse. 01:37:19.657 --> 01:37:23.887 I think a lot of what we do because we're not therapists and we don't have 01:37:23.887 --> 01:37:26.447 a therapy arm we're all horse trainers. 01:37:26.447 --> 01:37:26.507 Yeah. 01:37:26.657 --> 01:37:32.987 So we have a, a line that we don't cross because we're not qualified. 01:37:33.407 --> 01:37:33.677 Rupert Isaacson: Sure. 01:37:33.727 --> 01:37:34.537 Crissi McDonald: So we can, I'm not a 01:37:34.537 --> 01:37:37.147 Rupert Isaacson: therapist by the way, but it doesn't mean that, it doesn't 01:37:37.147 --> 01:37:39.727 mean that what you do is not therapeutic. 01:37:40.927 --> 01:37:41.587 Crissi McDonald: Correct. 01:37:41.857 --> 01:37:45.367 So, I, like Mark was saying, I think kindness goes a long way. 01:37:45.367 --> 01:37:45.427 Yeah. 01:37:45.427 --> 01:37:50.107 I think, you know, not laughing at them, but maybe laughing with them 01:37:50.727 --> 01:37:55.797 is helpful and it's, it really is. 01:37:56.217 --> 01:37:58.707 Mark and I are always saying, you know, it's gonna be okay. 01:37:59.157 --> 01:37:59.367 Yeah. 01:37:59.372 --> 01:38:00.777 We'll, we'll figure this out. 01:38:01.317 --> 01:38:02.667 It's going to be okay. 01:38:02.757 --> 01:38:07.377 And so having someone in this case with the 10 day clinic, maybe 01:38:07.377 --> 01:38:10.767 four or five, someone saying, you know, we'll, we'll figure it out. 01:38:12.387 --> 01:38:16.887 That alone, I think takes away some of that dynamic. 01:38:17.217 --> 01:38:17.607 Rupert Isaacson: Yes. 01:38:17.607 --> 01:38:21.357 That sort of feeling of, look, I, I absolutely believe in you and I. 01:38:21.657 --> 01:38:21.927 Mark Rashid: Yeah, 01:38:22.077 --> 01:38:22.287 Rupert Isaacson: yeah, 01:38:22.377 --> 01:38:22.617 Mark Rashid: yeah. 01:38:23.277 --> 01:38:28.227 And just, just by saying we, it's an inclusive thing, you know? 01:38:28.232 --> 01:38:28.612 Mm-hmm. 01:38:28.857 --> 01:38:30.717 It's, you're not in this by yourself here. 01:38:31.917 --> 01:38:34.677 You know, we're, we're all in it together. 01:38:34.677 --> 01:38:35.097 So 01:38:38.127 --> 01:38:41.117 Rupert Isaacson: one of the things which I found was massively useful 01:38:41.117 --> 01:38:42.937 for me so that's now what I. 01:38:43.327 --> 01:38:46.807 Do is I create school master horses that people can sit on. 01:38:47.377 --> 01:38:53.317 So if you wanna understand these fancy, dressy things, here's a horse. 01:38:54.157 --> 01:38:58.687 He's gonna do it for you, happily give you the feel. 01:38:59.527 --> 01:39:03.247 So you can't now tell me that you can't do that thing you because you just did it. 01:39:03.667 --> 01:39:05.587 Look, there, there it is now. 01:39:06.097 --> 01:39:06.367 Okay. 01:39:06.367 --> 01:39:07.777 And they'll say, you know, but you created it. 01:39:07.812 --> 01:39:08.767 It's not, it's cheating. 01:39:08.767 --> 01:39:10.477 It's like, well, no, it's not cheating. 01:39:10.482 --> 01:39:14.497 It's like, it's a, you're allowed to have a learning curve, you know, 01:39:14.767 --> 01:39:16.267 you're allowed to start somewhere. 01:39:16.717 --> 01:39:19.537 And I didn't come out of my mother's womb knowing this stuff. 01:39:19.537 --> 01:39:22.957 I, you know, and it was sitting on horses that knew it, that I realized, 01:39:22.957 --> 01:39:24.967 you know, and then working on the ground with horses that knew it. 01:39:24.967 --> 01:39:29.707 And then little by little, and of course all the old masters say, you 01:39:29.707 --> 01:39:37.147 know, whether it's, or Stein or any of these people said, take your beginner 01:39:37.147 --> 01:39:41.767 student and put them on your best horse on the first day in PFA so that they 01:39:41.767 --> 01:39:45.757 can feel it, and then gradually bring them up to the level of that horse. 01:39:45.757 --> 01:39:47.917 And that it's quite rational. 01:39:48.487 --> 01:39:51.397 Do you have horses that people can sit on and feel out? 01:39:51.457 --> 01:39:57.457 Like, do you have some, some absolute reliables, like, I've got a couple 01:39:57.457 --> 01:40:01.477 of horses that were like old married couples, you know, and it's like, 01:40:02.377 --> 01:40:05.047 okay, you know, please work with this. 01:40:05.047 --> 01:40:07.687 You know, he, he, he, he's gonna show you, don't, don't listen to me. 01:40:07.687 --> 01:40:08.977 Just let zag show you, you know. 01:40:09.427 --> 01:40:15.287 Or does it work in a different dynamic where you show people how to 01:40:15.287 --> 01:40:17.147 bring that side of their horse out? 01:40:17.357 --> 01:40:19.127 Or both Just intrigued. 01:40:19.127 --> 01:40:21.467 'cause everyone has their own ways of doing things. 01:40:23.747 --> 01:40:25.637 Each tribe has its own culture, I guess. 01:40:25.642 --> 01:40:25.702 Hmm. 01:40:29.477 --> 01:40:30.137 Mark Rashid: Chrissy, you wanna go? 01:40:31.077 --> 01:40:34.167 Crissi McDonald: I was gonna ask you if you wanted to go, but I can go. 01:40:34.977 --> 01:40:41.637 Some of the horses at the ranch that we have are really good at 01:40:43.707 --> 01:40:49.347 being clinic horses for people, and they will figure out who that 01:40:49.347 --> 01:40:52.887 person is and respond accordingly. 01:40:53.037 --> 01:40:57.057 So they're not Yeah, they're not horses that you, you put someone 01:40:57.057 --> 01:41:00.087 on and, and they just mindlessly go through the motions, right? 01:41:00.087 --> 01:41:00.147 Yeah. 01:41:00.147 --> 01:41:02.487 They will adapt to who, whoever they're working with. 01:41:03.247 --> 01:41:05.917 Some of those horses are braier than others. 01:41:05.917 --> 01:41:07.207 Some are softer than others. 01:41:07.207 --> 01:41:07.297 Mm-hmm. 01:41:07.303 --> 01:41:11.977 And so depending on the student and what they're wanting to learn, we can say, 01:41:11.977 --> 01:41:18.817 okay, this, this is how it feels if a horse is soft and that that's, yeah. 01:41:18.847 --> 01:41:22.237 Not just through the reins, but also how does it feel when you're. 01:41:22.762 --> 01:41:24.682 Around the horse or sitting on the horse? 01:41:24.742 --> 01:41:28.252 How do they, what, what resonance are, you know, what, what are 01:41:28.252 --> 01:41:30.082 you getting inside your own body? 01:41:30.442 --> 01:41:30.502 Hmm. 01:41:30.742 --> 01:41:33.262 Sometimes we'll let them ride our horses. 01:41:33.592 --> 01:41:35.782 That, that's a rare occurrence. 01:41:35.782 --> 01:41:35.872 Mm-hmm. 01:41:36.402 --> 01:41:40.002 Especially now because we're bringing horses along to get to that point. 01:41:40.302 --> 01:41:40.542 Mm-hmm. 01:41:40.842 --> 01:41:44.532 Crissi McDonald: But yes, we do have some horses where we can say, all right, 01:41:44.832 --> 01:41:49.782 here's, here's a horse who's bracey, maybe similar to your horse, and we can 01:41:49.782 --> 01:41:56.232 show you how to help soften that brace or, you know, kind on this horse and 01:41:56.232 --> 01:41:58.482 then you can take it back to your horse. 01:41:59.142 --> 01:42:00.222 So, yeah. 01:42:00.222 --> 01:42:02.382 We have something, we have something similar. 01:42:04.692 --> 01:42:04.902 Mark Rashid: Yeah. 01:42:04.902 --> 01:42:05.262 They, 01:42:07.392 --> 01:42:09.912 what I say is that they just won't, they won't give it away. 01:42:10.782 --> 01:42:10.962 Yeah. 01:42:11.202 --> 01:42:12.642 So there's some horses there. 01:42:12.642 --> 01:42:16.392 Like Christie said, that when you get on 'em, you know, horses are really 01:42:16.392 --> 01:42:21.702 good at teaching people how to ride the way that the horses always been ridden. 01:42:22.662 --> 01:42:34.332 And so they will, you'll get on a specific horse that has been ridden with some heavy 01:42:34.332 --> 01:42:40.002 hands, and that'll be the first thing that they offer when the rider gets on. 01:42:41.202 --> 01:42:41.292 Mm-hmm. 01:42:41.292 --> 01:42:43.062 Now, but they also know the other thing. 01:42:44.412 --> 01:42:47.202 They also know how to soften and. 01:42:47.607 --> 01:42:49.197 Carry themselves nicely. 01:42:49.197 --> 01:42:54.417 And, but a, a lot of those horses on the ranch are horses that have been rehabbed. 01:42:55.107 --> 01:42:55.437 Okay. 01:42:56.277 --> 01:42:59.037 Mark Rashid: And so, our 01:42:59.087 --> 01:43:04.527 our basic, basically our, our head assistant instructor is our 01:43:04.527 --> 01:43:09.657 senior assistant instructor is the trainer there at the ranch. 01:43:09.777 --> 01:43:13.017 So she's, she spends a lot of time working with these horses. 01:43:13.437 --> 01:43:18.837 So anyway, they will, somebody might get on and if the horse offers a brace, now 01:43:18.837 --> 01:43:24.687 the person's, you know, backing the brace up, you know, so now the two of them. 01:43:25.197 --> 01:43:29.307 And so that's when we can step in and go, okay, so somebody has to be the 01:43:29.307 --> 01:43:31.917 adult here and that's gonna be you. 01:43:33.087 --> 01:43:35.727 So here's how we're gonna do this. 01:43:35.727 --> 01:43:41.247 And that's when we talk about, you know, one of us getting on one end of the reins 01:43:41.247 --> 01:43:46.977 and the rider being on the other, showing them what the feel to get there, what 01:43:46.977 --> 01:43:52.887 it feels like, and then put the two of them together so that they can come to 01:43:52.887 --> 01:43:55.197 an understanding between the two of them. 01:43:56.217 --> 01:43:58.827 And then there's other horses that you could put anybody on and 01:43:58.827 --> 01:44:03.447 they will be soft and com, you know, and fine to be able to go. 01:44:04.227 --> 01:44:10.257 And so usually with folks who are struggling with anxiety. 01:44:11.037 --> 01:44:11.847 Kind of things. 01:44:12.447 --> 01:44:15.957 You know, those are the horses that they might get right off the bat. 01:44:16.737 --> 01:44:22.617 People who are are more interested in developing more skill, we might give them 01:44:22.617 --> 01:44:27.837 a different horse to work towards the end goal, whatever it is that they want. 01:44:30.237 --> 01:44:32.547 Rupert Isaacson: Again, it sounds to me what you're describing as tribe, 01:44:32.787 --> 01:44:34.167 horse Tribe, it's a horse tribe. 01:44:34.167 --> 01:44:34.257 Mark Rashid: Mm-hmm. 01:44:35.907 --> 01:44:40.707 Rupert Isaacson: That will welcome you in and will that the horse 01:44:40.707 --> 01:44:41.907 tribe is not just the people. 01:44:41.907 --> 01:44:41.997 Right. 01:44:42.657 --> 01:44:47.797 It's the equines within that tribe who will help you. 01:44:48.847 --> 01:44:51.697 And it's so interesting to me how generous horses are that way. 01:44:52.892 --> 01:44:53.312 Mm-hmm. 01:44:53.368 --> 01:44:56.908 And as you say, with rehabbing, you know, in the therapy horse 01:44:56.908 --> 01:45:02.908 world, as you know, people donate horses for a reason frequently. 01:45:02.938 --> 01:45:05.278 'cause they've messed them up physically. 01:45:05.278 --> 01:45:06.268 Well, you know, and 01:45:06.268 --> 01:45:08.788 Mark Rashid: they do, they do a lot of therapy work there. 01:45:08.793 --> 01:45:09.033 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:45:09.063 --> 01:45:09.353 They, 01:45:09.508 --> 01:45:09.868 Mark Rashid: yeah. 01:45:10.378 --> 01:45:15.688 In fact, the owners came to see you in Texas, the owners of the ranch. 01:45:16.018 --> 01:45:17.128 Where did they 01:45:17.608 --> 01:45:18.028 Mark Rashid: Yeah. 01:45:18.898 --> 01:45:19.768 How long ago? 01:45:20.788 --> 01:45:22.078 Oh, it's a while. 01:45:22.078 --> 01:45:22.082 It's been a while. 01:45:22.168 --> 01:45:23.008 Yeah, it's been a while. 01:45:23.008 --> 01:45:23.668 I think it was right 01:45:23.668 --> 01:45:24.988 Crissi McDonald: after Horse Boy came out. 01:45:25.378 --> 01:45:25.888 Mark Rashid: Okay. 01:45:25.888 --> 01:45:25.889 Okay. 01:45:26.338 --> 01:45:30.178 But they, yeah, they came down specifically because they 01:45:30.178 --> 01:45:35.998 were getting into therapy work with the, with the horses, so, 01:45:35.998 --> 01:45:36.568 Rupert Isaacson: got it. 01:45:37.543 --> 01:45:37.663 Mark Rashid: Yeah. 01:45:37.723 --> 01:45:38.113 Yeah. 01:45:38.113 --> 01:45:39.163 Rupert Isaacson: It's, it's a thing. 01:45:39.163 --> 01:45:44.428 I mean, when your average therapy horse, you donation horse mm-hmm. 01:45:44.513 --> 01:45:45.613 You have to rehab them. 01:45:46.283 --> 01:45:50.603 And then after a while we realized that the rehabbing of 01:45:50.603 --> 01:45:51.923 the horse was its own therapy. 01:45:52.493 --> 01:45:52.613 Mm-hmm. 01:45:52.943 --> 01:45:55.003 Rupert Isaacson: And and then we got caught in what we thought it 01:45:55.003 --> 01:45:57.973 was a, you know, a time conflict of, oh my gosh, well how are we gonna 01:45:57.973 --> 01:46:00.733 find the time to rehab these horses because we, God serve these kids. 01:46:00.733 --> 01:46:02.203 And they're like, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. 01:46:03.103 --> 01:46:05.863 The clients can absolutely do the rehabbing. 01:46:05.863 --> 01:46:05.953 Mm-hmm. 01:46:06.973 --> 01:46:07.273 Yes. 01:46:07.333 --> 01:46:10.603 Rupert Isaacson: In hand work lunging, long reigning, yes, yes, yes. 01:46:10.693 --> 01:46:11.443 Rebuilding. 01:46:12.643 --> 01:46:14.773 Why can't, of course they can do this. 01:46:15.373 --> 01:46:20.623 And then we started, and not only could they do it, they did it incredibly well. 01:46:21.043 --> 01:46:24.943 The horses loved them because they were coming with so much less ego. 01:46:25.783 --> 01:46:30.818 And then suddenly that became, oh, we were people with trauma or, and 01:46:30.818 --> 01:46:33.613 then we started working with the German Army and the US Air Force 01:46:33.613 --> 01:46:35.683 and just sort of found it something. 01:46:35.683 --> 01:46:38.713 But it's also, it all arose actually out of a time conflict of going, 01:46:38.923 --> 01:46:40.093 how are we gonna rehab these horses? 01:46:40.093 --> 01:46:43.573 You know, there's only three or four of us thinking about this. 01:46:43.573 --> 01:46:43.753 Wrong. 01:46:44.203 --> 01:46:45.973 But again, tribe, 01:46:48.313 --> 01:46:53.413 this might be, I know I would like to continue the conversation. 01:46:53.503 --> 01:46:53.893 Right. 01:46:54.613 --> 01:46:58.423 And it seems to me that where we started with softness and you, I think 01:46:58.423 --> 01:47:02.413 you guys have given some really good. 01:47:04.003 --> 01:47:07.363 Insights into how to find softness internally. 01:47:07.363 --> 01:47:09.523 And I think, I think it really comes down to kindness. 01:47:09.673 --> 01:47:14.653 I think you guys have actually made explicit that you, you do have a 01:47:14.653 --> 01:47:19.993 structure of kindness because it's kind to bring people into the doja 01:47:21.013 --> 01:47:24.043 and let them get together and start with that kind of getting comfortable 01:47:24.043 --> 01:47:25.633 in their bodies and in their minds. 01:47:25.633 --> 01:47:31.633 And it's kind to do it over 10 days so that people can have an evolution 01:47:32.653 --> 01:47:37.273 and it's kind to set them up so that they can sometimes work alone 01:47:37.273 --> 01:47:39.283 and sometimes have that support. 01:47:39.523 --> 01:47:46.603 And it's kind to set up a community, a tribe of these other instructors 01:47:46.603 --> 01:47:51.553 and so on and so forth, where actually everyone does get the support they need. 01:47:51.553 --> 01:47:54.553 'cause there's only one mark and only one Chrissy and 10 people. 01:47:54.553 --> 01:47:57.373 And so, yes, of course you need more people and blah, blah. 01:47:57.493 --> 01:48:00.553 And you provide all the structure and support that is kindness. 01:48:02.053 --> 01:48:05.563 And because people are coming in with anxiety and often 01:48:05.563 --> 01:48:09.823 unkindness to themselves, that's a learned thing in our society. 01:48:12.913 --> 01:48:18.463 And because tribe has come up in this conversation, what I'd like 01:48:18.463 --> 01:48:22.693 to address with your permission in the next one is loneliness. 01:48:23.833 --> 01:48:24.013 Hmm. 01:48:26.278 --> 01:48:28.768 Rupert Isaacson: You know, I think it's pretty clear that 01:48:29.068 --> 01:48:30.538 there's an epidemic of that. 01:48:31.708 --> 01:48:35.968 Those of us who are in the horse world, I think have a, an unusual 01:48:39.928 --> 01:48:41.578 solution for that 01:48:43.918 --> 01:48:46.168 because horses are things that do bring people to together. 01:48:47.258 --> 01:48:47.618 Yes. 01:48:51.038 --> 01:48:53.108 Hopefully for better, sometimes not. 01:48:56.258 --> 01:48:57.908 And how to begin to address that. 01:48:57.908 --> 01:49:01.148 And I think that putting this in the mind, I think making that conversation 01:49:01.388 --> 01:49:06.248 front and center again, this, this podcast is equine assisted world. 01:49:06.248 --> 01:49:09.038 We are being assisted by our equines. 01:49:12.248 --> 01:49:14.558 You don't have to be an autistic child or a 01:49:17.048 --> 01:49:20.978 returning veteran with PTSD to be suffering. 01:49:23.018 --> 01:49:32.098 And so you, you, you seem to have actually talked about giving people a way out of 01:49:32.098 --> 01:49:36.043 loneliness, perhaps without knowing it. 01:49:36.963 --> 01:49:37.383 Mm-hmm. 01:49:37.603 --> 01:49:39.118 Rupert Isaacson: As you said, it's a byproduct, 01:49:41.788 --> 01:49:46.318 but maybe it's time for it to be the product. 01:49:47.368 --> 01:49:47.578 Hmm. 01:49:48.043 --> 01:49:49.963 Rupert Isaacson: Because I think the need is is is there. 01:49:49.963 --> 01:49:52.723 'cause you know, the horses, they don't care that much at the end of the day. 01:49:52.933 --> 01:49:53.203 You know? 01:49:53.203 --> 01:49:57.283 I mean, if their can transition is clunky, I mean Yeah, it's nicer. 01:49:57.283 --> 01:49:58.933 It feels nicer for the horse, I suppose. 01:49:58.933 --> 01:49:59.053 Yeah. 01:49:59.053 --> 01:50:01.063 But that's more of a monkey thing, isn't it? 01:50:01.063 --> 01:50:06.403 You know, really, at the end of the day than a you, but we're monkey so Yeah. 01:50:06.403 --> 01:50:07.273 We want a nicer Yeah. 01:50:09.038 --> 01:50:11.083 But it was never the horse's idea to put a monkey on. 01:50:11.083 --> 01:50:12.073 Its back in the first place. 01:50:12.073 --> 01:50:12.283 Right? 01:50:12.283 --> 01:50:12.698 That's right. 01:50:14.143 --> 01:50:16.773 And then we put then we put our own monkeys on our own back. 01:50:16.773 --> 01:50:16.923 So, yeah. 01:50:17.288 --> 01:50:17.488 Rupert Isaacson: I'm kidding. 01:50:17.488 --> 01:50:19.263 And the horse was like, man, it's a lot of monkeys. 01:50:19.383 --> 01:50:19.863 Yeah. 01:50:19.863 --> 01:50:21.243 We're like monkey, monkey, monkey. 01:50:21.243 --> 01:50:21.723 Yeah. 01:50:22.233 --> 01:50:22.443 Yeah. 01:50:22.443 --> 01:50:23.343 Horses are saying, oh my 01:50:23.343 --> 01:50:24.843 Rupert Isaacson: God, I got some, I got some letters of 01:50:24.843 --> 01:50:26.283 apology to write to some horses. 01:50:27.483 --> 01:50:28.528 All those monkeys I brought. 01:50:29.918 --> 01:50:30.208 Yeah. 01:50:30.258 --> 01:50:30.608 Ruper. 01:50:30.613 --> 01:50:31.233 I wanted to 01:50:31.233 --> 01:50:34.873 Crissi McDonald: remark before I forget I wanted to remark on, you said that 01:50:34.873 --> 01:50:38.593 when you would go to barns and you would say, take a tree and put it in the arena. 01:50:39.193 --> 01:50:42.733 You know, make this a place where you can explore different things and 01:50:42.733 --> 01:50:47.293 different textures and sight and, and how much resistance there was to that. 01:50:48.133 --> 01:50:52.693 It is so indicative to me that we've lost the spirit of play and curiosity. 01:50:52.693 --> 01:50:53.023 Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely. 01:50:53.443 --> 01:50:55.843 And the resistance to happiness at all. 01:50:56.233 --> 01:50:56.443 Yeah. 01:50:56.588 --> 01:50:58.668 'cause it's unfamiliar, it's become Yeah. 01:50:59.233 --> 01:50:59.683 Unfamiliar. 01:51:00.013 --> 01:51:00.973 And we, well, it's like 01:51:00.973 --> 01:51:06.313 Crissi McDonald: the curiosity goes, goes out the window and curiosity and play. 01:51:06.943 --> 01:51:09.223 And that, that's also endemic to us. 01:51:09.223 --> 01:51:13.093 You know, we're talking about loneliness and these, and how we block ourselves from 01:51:13.093 --> 01:51:16.033 happiness, but we have things that, that. 01:51:16.798 --> 01:51:21.028 Our factory installed, you know, we come into the world with curiosity in play. 01:51:21.328 --> 01:51:26.698 And to hear that that is actively pushed against is really, you know, what a, 01:51:26.758 --> 01:51:33.328 what a remark on how we are not only as a assess as a society, but as horse people. 01:51:33.328 --> 01:51:35.938 You know, it's gotta be serious and we've gotta learn the right way. 01:51:35.938 --> 01:51:39.778 Like you said it, this canter to bar, it has to be within 0.5 01:51:39.778 --> 01:51:41.158 strides and the horse is going, 01:51:45.418 --> 01:51:49.318 you know, so it, it's very interesting to me that you, that you mention 01:51:49.318 --> 01:51:51.868 that story that it's so clear 01:51:52.978 --> 01:51:55.738 Mark Rashid: about Well, we get, we get good, we get good at what we practice. 01:51:56.248 --> 01:51:56.548 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, 01:51:56.583 --> 01:51:56.873 Crissi McDonald: yeah. 01:51:57.058 --> 01:51:59.398 We're gonna be serious with horses, you know? 01:52:00.088 --> 01:52:02.368 Rupert Isaacson: Oh, and I've been so, I've been so guilty of that, you know? 01:52:02.728 --> 01:52:03.478 Crissi McDonald: Oh, I have too. 01:52:03.868 --> 01:52:04.738 Absolutely. 01:52:04.743 --> 01:52:05.283 I, I'm, 01:52:05.343 --> 01:52:07.108 Rupert Isaacson: and not just with what, I mean, everything in my 01:52:07.108 --> 01:52:08.398 life, you know, I've done that. 01:52:09.598 --> 01:52:09.928 Crissi McDonald: Yeah, 01:52:10.828 --> 01:52:11.008 Rupert Isaacson: yeah. 01:52:11.008 --> 01:52:11.283 Of course. 01:52:11.283 --> 01:52:11.968 We've all done that thing. 01:52:12.298 --> 01:52:18.988 When you do it to your horses after a certain time, you ha, you kind of 01:52:18.988 --> 01:52:24.268 have to notice that they're not happy and you're pissing them off, you know? 01:52:24.838 --> 01:52:31.138 And when you've got that, when you've noticed that you 01:52:31.138 --> 01:52:32.548 can't unnoticed it, you know? 01:52:33.388 --> 01:52:33.779 Um mm-hmm. 01:52:34.348 --> 01:52:36.658 I think, I think for a, well one can actually be happily blind. 01:52:37.418 --> 01:52:38.648 I think I was for a long time. 01:52:39.098 --> 01:52:41.468 And then I went through a period of. 01:52:41.903 --> 01:52:45.173 Really not wanting to admit that I ever did anything wrong, you know? 01:52:46.643 --> 01:52:50.813 And then finally going, oh man, I think I'm, I think I'm pissing this. 01:52:51.203 --> 01:52:51.803 Oh fuck 01:52:52.973 --> 01:52:53.333 Crissi McDonald: yeah. 01:52:53.393 --> 01:52:53.843 Rupert Isaacson: You know? 01:52:54.053 --> 01:52:54.893 Alright, what do I do? 01:52:56.453 --> 01:52:58.103 Crissi McDonald: Yes, I did that too. 01:52:58.103 --> 01:53:03.053 I went from joyful and curious and loving horses into, it's very serious and they've 01:53:03.053 --> 01:53:04.703 gotta carry their head a certain way. 01:53:04.703 --> 01:53:08.063 And you use this equipment and you do this to make them go. 01:53:08.423 --> 01:53:10.193 It got very serious for a while. 01:53:10.703 --> 01:53:15.473 And then I started looking at the horses and my heart was breaking. 01:53:15.473 --> 01:53:21.593 'cause this was, this is not the vision I imagined in my head. 01:53:22.103 --> 01:53:25.103 You know, ha ringing and ears back and everything tight. 01:53:25.943 --> 01:53:28.283 And then you go the other way and you're like, okay, I'm not, we 01:53:28.283 --> 01:53:29.243 were talking about this earlier. 01:53:29.243 --> 01:53:30.323 I'm not gonna do anything. 01:53:30.623 --> 01:53:30.833 Yeah. 01:53:31.463 --> 01:53:33.053 Crissi McDonald: Well that, that's an option. 01:53:35.633 --> 01:53:37.103 I don't know that that it, but it's an extreme. 01:53:37.973 --> 01:53:38.783 Rupert Isaacson: It's an extreme. 01:53:38.813 --> 01:53:39.773 Crissi McDonald: It's an extreme. 01:53:39.923 --> 01:53:40.163 Right. 01:53:40.163 --> 01:53:43.763 And how often do we find happiness or joy at extremes? 01:53:44.303 --> 01:53:45.048 Rupert Isaacson: I think too, we might 01:53:45.053 --> 01:53:45.923 Crissi McDonald: find control. 01:53:46.553 --> 01:53:53.303 Rupert Isaacson: Yes, there can be, there can be a misdiagnosis of effort as stress. 01:53:54.023 --> 01:53:56.783 So now one thinks of, well, any effort is stress. 01:53:56.783 --> 01:53:57.803 And that's, well, yeah. 01:53:57.863 --> 01:53:58.733 Yeah, I suppose. 01:53:58.733 --> 01:54:01.793 But I mean, if I walked to the top of the mountain, 'cause I chose to 01:54:01.793 --> 01:54:05.063 walk to the top of the mountain, there's some stress I go through 01:54:05.063 --> 01:54:06.233 to get to the top of the mountain. 01:54:06.563 --> 01:54:09.023 But there's, I guess, agency in that and it also there 01:54:09.023 --> 01:54:10.163 endorphins and it feels good. 01:54:10.163 --> 01:54:10.913 So, you know. 01:54:11.258 --> 01:54:14.438 When one then gets into the conversation, you know, I've, I'm often in this 01:54:14.438 --> 01:54:19.808 conversation, for example, about side res, I use them because I need to build muscle. 01:54:20.618 --> 01:54:23.198 I use 'em for about 15 minutes to build muscle. 01:54:23.198 --> 01:54:26.528 So when I, when I go and lift some weights or something, or do some, 01:54:26.798 --> 01:54:30.458 not as often as I should, but yeah, I, I, I accept that there'll be 01:54:30.638 --> 01:54:32.738 some effort there for a short time. 01:54:33.318 --> 01:54:40.398 And then not, or I could sort of do that until I drop or keep that thing on that 01:54:40.398 --> 01:54:41.658 horse for an hour and a half, you know? 01:54:42.438 --> 01:54:43.428 No, okay. 01:54:44.958 --> 01:54:49.638 There's a reasonable thing as, as one, my, my biggest teacher is Luis Za. 01:54:49.638 --> 01:54:52.908 He always pointed out, I said, Rupert, no one ever invented a 01:54:52.938 --> 01:54:56.028 so-called gadget to mess a horse up. 01:54:56.658 --> 01:55:00.198 People actually only invented those things to help matters out. 01:55:00.318 --> 01:55:05.898 However, one can use anything in an abusive way. 01:55:05.898 --> 01:55:08.388 I could take this t-shirt off and strangle myself with it. 01:55:08.808 --> 01:55:12.678 You know, I could drive my car into a crowd of people, or I could yes, 01:55:13.668 --> 01:55:15.408 drive somebody to the hospital. 01:55:15.468 --> 01:55:22.398 You know, that how you use the, the bit can be objective torture, or it 01:55:22.398 --> 01:55:26.478 can be something that actually releases the jaw if someone shows you how to. 01:55:27.378 --> 01:55:27.618 That's great. 01:55:27.668 --> 01:55:28.088 Right. 01:55:28.088 --> 01:55:32.798 So all of these, so, you know, increasingly, however, 01:55:33.158 --> 01:55:35.018 polarization and extremism. 01:55:36.548 --> 01:55:37.838 Is something we see everywhere. 01:55:37.838 --> 01:55:39.038 It's not just in the horse world. 01:55:39.038 --> 01:55:42.428 And I think we certainly can see it happening in the world. 01:55:43.028 --> 01:55:45.788 And what does that do, but breed isolation and loneliness. 01:55:46.388 --> 01:55:50.348 You know, I'm now in the against side res group. 01:55:50.438 --> 01:55:52.238 I'm in the pro side res group. 01:55:52.268 --> 01:55:56.198 I'm in the, you know, I'm the blue, I'm the red, I'm the this, I'm the, that. 01:55:56.678 --> 01:55:57.788 I'm a, you guys suck. 01:55:57.788 --> 01:55:58.843 And, and 01:56:01.808 --> 01:56:03.488 you know, and you've got a bunch of horses going, whoa. 01:56:03.488 --> 01:56:04.328 Look at the monkeys. 01:56:04.328 --> 01:56:04.778 Just like ch 01:56:09.818 --> 01:56:10.088 they us in 01:56:10.088 --> 01:56:10.448 the field. 01:56:11.923 --> 01:56:12.213 Yeah. 01:56:16.513 --> 01:56:16.733 Ove. 01:56:18.073 --> 01:56:18.293 Ove. 01:56:19.483 --> 01:56:19.773 Yeah. 01:56:19.838 --> 01:56:21.578 We would, we would love to chat with you again. 01:56:21.578 --> 01:56:23.318 'cause I feel like there now there's a whole different 01:56:23.738 --> 01:56:24.248 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:56:24.458 --> 01:56:26.653 Well I do think topic to discuss loneliness though. 01:56:26.653 --> 01:56:32.888 And, and because there's, as you say mark misery is optional, but you don't 01:56:32.888 --> 01:56:38.198 always know that you're taking that option because that you, you may be so 01:56:38.198 --> 01:56:42.368 conditioned into that option that you don't know that there's another option. 01:56:42.368 --> 01:56:45.578 Or you might not even recognize misery as misery. 01:56:45.878 --> 01:56:46.268 Again, 01:56:47.013 --> 01:56:48.668 Mark Rashid: it, it becomes the way you go. 01:56:48.968 --> 01:56:49.238 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:56:50.978 --> 01:56:51.278 Mark Rashid: Yeah. 01:56:51.368 --> 01:56:56.138 So, you know, it goes back to you get good at what you practice. 01:56:56.618 --> 01:56:59.558 Rupert Isaacson: As Jane Pike would say, you know, like you, you pick up the 01:56:59.558 --> 01:57:02.918 nervous system of your parents, and if your, if your parents walk around like 01:57:02.918 --> 01:57:05.918 that looking a bit defeated, you will. 01:57:06.638 --> 01:57:09.038 If your parents walk around like that, you will. 01:57:09.043 --> 01:57:09.283 Mm-hmm. 01:57:09.608 --> 01:57:11.048 You know, because you, you're just gonna observe. 01:57:11.048 --> 01:57:14.378 Your nervous system will follow what it sees. 01:57:15.398 --> 01:57:20.318 However, it's malleable and one can recreate it. 01:57:20.318 --> 01:57:25.088 And I would say that that's the business that you all are in and you 01:57:25.088 --> 01:57:31.508 happen to use ponies for that as well as aikido and art and music and tribe. 01:57:32.708 --> 01:57:32.918 Mm-hmm. 01:57:33.698 --> 01:57:38.678 So indeed, can we come back and talk about loneliness and kindness? 01:57:40.178 --> 01:57:40.868 Yes, we'd love to. 01:57:41.138 --> 01:57:41.348 Okay. 01:57:41.408 --> 01:57:41.798 Yeah, 01:57:41.948 --> 01:57:42.698 Crissi McDonald: absolutely. 01:57:44.438 --> 01:57:47.378 Rupert Isaacson: So listeners, for those of you who have not yet listened to the 01:57:47.378 --> 01:57:51.683 previous conversation that we've had, you will not know necessarily Mark and 01:57:51.683 --> 01:57:53.308 Chrissy's website and how to get in them. 01:57:53.308 --> 01:57:57.628 So please, will you tell people how to get in contact with you and 01:57:57.718 --> 01:57:59.518 how to come and do your workshops? 01:58:00.448 --> 01:58:00.748 Crissi McDonald: Yes. 01:58:01.018 --> 01:58:04.348 So my website is chrissy mcdonald.com. 01:58:04.348 --> 01:58:08.188 C-R-I-S-S-I-M-C-D-O-N-A-L-D. 01:58:08.878 --> 01:58:12.118 And marks is mark rashid.com. 01:58:12.178 --> 01:58:15.628 M-A-R-K-R-A-S-H-I-D. 01:58:16.088 --> 01:58:20.428 Our clinic schedule is on Mark site, so if you click on the 01:58:20.428 --> 01:58:22.078 link at the top, you'll see that. 01:58:22.528 --> 01:58:25.738 We also have other resources such as a online classroom, and 01:58:25.738 --> 01:58:29.548 we have a monthly teeny tiny little newsletter that goes out. 01:58:29.548 --> 01:58:29.998 So 01:58:30.568 --> 01:58:30.808 Rupert Isaacson: super. 01:58:31.078 --> 01:58:33.118 Crissi McDonald: That's how you can get in touch with us. 01:58:34.888 --> 01:58:40.078 Rupert Isaacson: And if they go to one of your web marks or yours, they could end 01:58:40.078 --> 01:58:41.788 up with both of you in the same place. 01:58:42.658 --> 01:58:42.838 Crissi McDonald: Yes. 01:58:43.318 --> 01:58:43.498 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 01:58:43.858 --> 01:58:44.608 And the name, no Package 01:58:44.693 --> 01:58:44.983 Crissi McDonald: Deal. 01:58:46.108 --> 01:58:49.948 Rupert Isaacson: And the name of the ranch where you are doing the workshops. 01:58:51.028 --> 01:58:53.278 Happy Dog Ranch is Happy Dog Ranch. 01:58:53.278 --> 01:58:53.279 Yeah. 01:58:53.279 --> 01:58:53.668 Such a beautiful, and it's 01:58:53.668 --> 01:58:55.678 Crissi McDonald: in Sedalia, Colorado. 01:58:56.968 --> 01:58:57.958 Rupert Isaacson: Not a bad place to go. 01:58:58.618 --> 01:58:59.848 Mark Rashid: Yeah, indeed. 01:59:00.043 --> 01:59:00.333 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:59:01.513 --> 01:59:02.248 All right, my friends. 01:59:02.248 --> 01:59:02.818 Well, thank you. 01:59:02.938 --> 01:59:03.658 Thank you again. 01:59:03.658 --> 01:59:03.838 Thank you, 01:59:04.623 --> 01:59:04.743 Crissi McDonald: Ru. 01:59:04.743 --> 01:59:04.768 Thank you 01:59:05.338 --> 01:59:06.898 Rupert Isaacson: being brilliant again. 01:59:06.958 --> 01:59:07.138 It's 01:59:07.138 --> 01:59:08.638 Crissi McDonald: been a wonderful conversation. 01:59:08.638 --> 01:59:09.118 Thank you. 01:59:09.418 --> 01:59:10.348 Rupert Isaacson: Well, likewise. 01:59:10.348 --> 01:59:11.008 Thank you. 01:59:11.331 --> 01:59:14.451 I hope you enjoyed today's conversation as much as I did. 01:59:14.991 --> 01:59:19.891 If you like what we're doing here, please do like, subscribe, tell a friend. 01:59:19.901 --> 01:59:24.071 It so helps us to get this valuable work done and the message of 01:59:24.071 --> 01:59:25.951 Equine Assisted Stuff out there. 01:59:26.101 --> 01:59:29.181 And if you're interested in more conversations, you might want to check 01:59:29.191 --> 01:59:31.871 out I'll live free ride free podcast. 01:59:32.261 --> 01:59:37.021 And if you'd like to support the podcasts, please go to rupertisakson. 01:59:37.071 --> 01:59:39.561 com and click on the Patreon link. 01:59:40.261 --> 01:59:43.781 If you're a professional in the equine assisted field or considering a career 01:59:44.131 --> 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