On Survival

Intro: rain in LA, Nine Perfect Strangers, we're worried about Nicole Kidman and Madonna, The Way Down documentary, The Plot Thickens podcast, Glee
Let Me Run This By You: antisemitism
Interview: Jen and Gina talk about survival, itself.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
1 (8s):
And Jen Bosworth wrote me this and I'm Gina <inaudible>. We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? Yeah. Stay happy yesterday birthday. Was it a good day? It was a good day. You know, I think the coolest part of yesterday was we had crazy thunderstorms, like crazy for LA.

1 (50s):
Like I was like, is that thunder? What in the crazy thunderstorms, which we never obviously having the desert. So, or in LA the thing that's come, the episodes that's coming out today, you specifically referenced how there's never any vendor's derms in LA. That's really funny. So, yeah, so it was a very chill day. In a lot of ways. I spent a lot of time. My cousin came from San Francisco and she stays at the, she stayed at a Sheraton hotel and we, I woke up, I usually had Mondays, I take my, like a sunrise hike, but I just wasn't feeling it.

1 (1m 30s):
I was really tired. And so I just laid around and then I went to my favorite cafe that I recently discovered called superba. And then I like it. And then I hung out with my cousin and we literally like went to my favorite restaurant, which is tender greens. Do you guys have tender greens over there? No, it sounds, this sounds like a great salad place, salads and bowls. So my thing is like, I get really resentful. If I sometimes just eat a salad, I need like a grain to go with my salad. I'm like, I don't want just a salad. So they have these sort of grain and salad bowls with meat and say, or like salmon chicken or veggie or a steak.

1 (2m 18s):
And so I, it was delicious. It's like my favorite. So overpriced, it's so ridiculous for a fast food place, but whatever it's health, it's pretty healthy. And that was amazing. And then yeah, then around like four, the skies turned really dark and I was like, what is happening? I thought it was fires. And then it just burst out and I heard thunder and I was like, what? So it was a really good day. I got some really like lovely messages. And there was that huge Facebook outage. Right? Yeah. So it was interesting in blessing the blessing Facebook outage. So my cousin asked me, she's like, well, like how is it to have no Facebook messages on your birthday?

1 (3m 3s):
Cause that's when people really go for it. You know, it's an interesting thing. It is kind of like, oh, but then it's also like, oh, I'm missing out. But then it is also really interesting how, right? Like it's just like going to church on Christmas. Like you go one day a year and you're like, or some people do. And then you're like, oh, I'm good for them. And so that's the same with the like happy birthday, Facebook messages. So I thought, yeah, it's just a really good, interesting thing to like, not be able one to go on social media that we all probably experienced and then to not be able to get the fix of like happy birthday, happy, you know?

2 (3m 40s):
Yeah. Yeah.

1 (3m 41s):
It's an interesting psychological situation. So it was, it was, do they know why it went down?

2 (3m 48s):
Oh yes, girl. I read the most, I loved this. This is, I mean, I'm sorry to say it, but it's even psychological. This thing that happens. So face book now I I'm gonna say this in just the bleakest artful way. People like Bradley Walker are going to be listening to this being like, you're such a guy, but I'm going to say in a way that I would understand. So maybe other people understand too Facebook's infrastructure, their, their technological infrastructure and their servers or everything. It's all Facebook brand blitz say they don't interface really with other companies there.

2 (4m 31s):
They're what is that called vertical integration. It's like one stop shopping, everything that they do and produce and need and use it's all within Facebook. So that's fine, except for when there's a problem and the override. So the problem is also a Facebook entity and then the right. So they were even having the problem that they couldn't get into the server room because the key card that they needed to open the door to get into the server room was high.

1 (5m 7s):
Brilliant, brilliant. And it's, it does go to the same. It sort of speaks to the, the thing about pathology and addiction and stuff, which is you can't fix the problem with the same mind that created the problem or has the problem. And that's what they experienced. Oh my God.

2 (5m 27s):
You know, and it's like, don't be a closed loop. You know, like this is the problem with being a closed loop. I mean, I understand it like in an emotional way, I understand the desire to be a closed loop because you get into this thing of like, I can't rely on anybody else. You can only rely on myself and like, everybody else disappointed me. I'm that mark Zuckerberg has that written all over his face. Like he is such a hard on for the world. Like he has such a chip on his shoulder about like how everybody has wronged him. I feel, I mean, I don't know him, but that's just what it seems like. And so his desire to have everything be controlled by himself is understandable.

2 (6m 11s):
And it's, it is going to be the thing that leads to his downfall, whatever the case, whatever the downfall is, we can be sure that it has something to do with this desire to have everything, everything be within his control.

1 (6m 24s):
Yeah. And I think it is going to be his undoing. And I think it is like we saw yesterday and, and, and I mean, it just was such fodder for hilariousness. It was like, I literally saw a news headline that was, and I don't remember what it was some paper in London or something that said Facebook and Twitter and WhatsApp are down. Maybe you should take this opportunity to go down on someone else or something like that. It was like, <inaudible> like everything

2 (6m 56s):
Public library said for everybody's information. We're not down. We're still open. By the way. The thing about the storms, you can always tell, you can instantly know it's raining in LA because 1 million pictures of rain it's like ever, it's such an event. Everybody's Instagramming it,

1 (7m 16s):
Everyone. It's so interesting. It's like weather is so like basic, like people that were so affected by weather, even if we pretend not to be like, it's just great unifier. Yeah. And we're just, it's just an, I like it. Cause it's the great thing that like no one can control, right? Like speaking of control, like he'll, I mean, one day Elon Musk will probably figure out how to control the weather, but until then nobody can. And it's fantastic.

2 (7m 43s):
Speaking of Elon Musk, did you see that picture of Grimes reading? Like I'm going to spend a Festo. I read that if that should have been, that photograph should have been in the museum of camp. Like, so for people who don't know Grimes was, is this singer a woman? It's was he Elon Musk's girlfriend? And they broke up and then she's got this very, you know, obviously staged photo of herself in head to toe, whatever crazy leather with her long ass nails and her makeup reading, Karl Marx, if you put it, you know, if you saw it in a museum, you'd be like, that is hilarious.

2 (8m 29s):
But it's really what she did. It's really what should,

1 (8m 33s):
Yeah. What goes through someone's mind to want to stage a photo like that? Or was it someone else or like what, what is it?

2 (8m 42s):
I think that these, that these millennials love to have their picture taken, reading a book. That's like the that's just such a, you know, did you watch, did you watch the white?

1 (8m 56s):
No, I saw, I started nine. Perfect strangers though. Oh girl.

2 (9m 1s):
Let's get into that.

1 (9m 2s):
How far does it go? I just literally started and I was like, what is, what is I, I, yeah, it's very it's it's it was very triggering for me. Like to see what is yeah. Like I just, I don't understand. Okay. Here's what happens to me. I get very overstimulated and I also get distracted by the way people look. Right. So like, I'm just like, you're going to say, well, Kidman, right? It's like, it's hard for me to not go into feeling afraid and feeling like that just frightens me when people change their appearance so much, because I wonder what it is.

1 (9m 50s):
Oh. Because I'm probably scared that I'll do it or people I love will feel the need to look a certain way and they look crazy. However, it's w I think it's, well-written, I don't understand what's happening yet, but I, I, yeah. Are they, is it similar to white Lotus or no?

2 (10m 9s):
It's similar to white load is just in the sense that it's, for the most part, it's, you know, people with money going to a, but they're going to this wellness retreat and it's this place that nobody that doesn't need to advertise it exists solely on word of mouth. And I don't, I'm not sure I haven't read if there's going to be a season two, this, this, whatever they did is six episodes or nine episodes. And it tells a pretty complete story. So yeah, I had the same feeling about Nicole Kidman. What it brings up for me is I feel so worried for her. I feel like she's gonna break.

2 (10m 50s):
She's so thin. And she's so altered. Her appearance is so altered that it just makes me worry about what's happening. And, you know,

1 (11m 3s):
People like her, and I have a similar thing with Joe Biden, even though they're not, they look translucent to me. And I think that you can almost see their insight. It's the weirdest thing. But like, you can kind of see the inner workings of their body. And it's just very, very disconcerting. It's very bizarre, but that is not so much. I, you know, I actually look plastic surgery and we've talked on this podcast before. I don't, I don't want to sh like, I really don't want to shame anyone for getting it because I feel like that doesn't help the problem.

2 (11m 41s):
Then you gotta do. When people have to do what works for them, it

1 (11m 44s):
Doesn't help to say no one should get plastic surgery. I mean, that is like, again, I'm always going back to saying, tell a crack addict, don't smoke crack. It's you don't, I'm not saying people are all addicts that do surgery, but what I'm saying is the shit doesn't help to shame people. It just does. It made hell for a hot second. And then, but it is like, right. It is just, it is just, I think you and I probably both see the, the underlying pathology that leads someone to think that that is what they need to do to stay something relevant, happy, whatever it is, it is a, we, I cannot help, but see it as a cry for help, even if it's, even if that's not what they're trying to do when it is that altering, there's gotta be a cry for something.

1 (12m 40s):
What is a cry for relevancy, a cry for youth, a cry for please don't change. Nothing can change. You know,

2 (12m 48s):
You know what it makes me think of. I wonder if we're also scared by the idea that you could be Nicole Kidman and still hate yourself. She is an amazing actor. She's truly talented. I don't agree with her being cast as Lucille ball. I feel that was, that was low down and dirty. But at the same time, she's a really good actor, but you can be her and have the money and have the life and whatever, and have the career. And you could still really, really hate yourself.

1 (13m 18s):
Yeah. Or like, feel that you have to change. I guess that's what it is. Like, feel that you have to take such drastic steps to change the outside or maintain what you think. See, the other thing is like to maintain what you think you looked like, which isn't what you looked like, because you can never look like what you looked like, because time changes you. So it is this weird, like, dude, you never looked like this and you looked young, but that's not the same as looking like this. So I, and it is very, what is it? It's scary to me.

1 (13m 58s):
It's it just takes me out of the, it's hard for me to get past it and say, because what I say is like, oh my God, there was a human in there that looked like the same as Madonna. I have the same, same thing. When I look at Madonna

2 (14m 13s):
Simply I simply cannot look at a picture of her. It is so grotesque. She, it's sad. It's really, really, really sad. Yeah. But, you know, I will just say about Nicole Kidman, she does such a good job in this. You'll get over in a couple of episodes. You'll kind of, you kind of get past it and it kind of in a way works for the character, even though it shouldn't, that's never something that gets addressed. It may, you can find a way that it makes sense.

1 (14m 43s):
I'm going to continue. Okay. So Madonna is starting to look like a tiger, like an animal. Like it looks

2 (14m 51s):
Like Jocelyn wild Dean or whatever that woman. Yeah. That's what she looks

1 (14m 56s):
Starting to look feline. <inaudible> and what, what is interesting or I don't know. Interesting. Disturbing to me is that just for me growing up in the eighties, what she represented to me as such a rebel, a free spirit, a and you could argue that she's just doing this and she's more of a free spirit by saying F you I'm gonna, I'm going to alter my face, but it's again, like, first of all, it's like, why, why are we doing this? And also, why does it bother me? Like, those are the two things I asked myself, you know? And I'm sure people listening might be like, well, it bothers you because you want to do it or whatever.

1 (15m 38s):
I don't necessarily want to do that. But what I want is, you know what, it's different. It's different for me, because I never have felt like at one point I would, if we had, if we had a Madonna on our show, I would love to ask, Hey, she went to U of M I think in a conservatory, but it was dance. I think she didn't finish. But anyway, I'd love to say like, okay, did you feel like at the height of maybe material, girl, staff, whatever, did you feel like the total shit? Like you were the shit, did you ever have a moment? Okay. I have. Now I have had so few of those moments where it's like on that level, you know, like what I imagined it is when you just know you're the shit at some point, and you are an icon, whether you, whether you, what direction you take from there.

1 (16m 30s):
That's but you must have a moment of being like, damn I am the boss ass bitch. Okay, fine. I've never experienced that. So I think ho wanting to hold on to that and people telling you, you can hold onto that feeling by altering this, your face must be really, really seductive. Now I have always been like a bigger human and a lot of ways for most of my life. Like, I don't have the same feeling that I was ever on top of the world, but, and it's just such a, it's a tricky thing because are they, do they feel like they're on top of the world or they feel less than, and that's why they're doing this. I don't know.

2 (17m 8s):
Well, I thought you were going to say that the reason it was upsetting to you is because you want to have role role models is not really the right word, but you want to have examples of older, powerful women who just, who just age that were so thirsty are I feel so thirsty for just more, I can't believe how many times on this podcast, I bring up Meryl Streep, but more Meryl. Streep's more people who are just like, yeah, I'm, I'm getting older. And I mean, maybe she's had some work done. I don't know. But she looks essentially like the same person, Glenn close looks essentially like the same person.

2 (17m 52s):
And certainly, you know, Angela Bassett and Halle Berry. Now they're, they're blessed with genes that make them not really seem to ever age, but still I'd love to see some people who say, yeah, I'm a bad-ass because I've had all of these experiences and because of,

1 (18m 14s):
Yeah, I think you're right. I think that is a part of me. That's like, wait a second. Why? Right. Is no one, no woman untouched by the pressure to be a certain way. Why, why and where are there? And there are them, but like, yeah. I mean, Madonna, I have to say, like, she, I had a poster on my wall. I dressed as her for Halloween. Like I just thought, oh my gosh, this is amazing. And, and now I'm, it is troubling to look at it. It's just troubling. It just looks troubling to me. It feels troubling.

1 (18m 55s):
So,

2 (18m 56s):
And it's also that it seems, you know, I think one thing that has been consistent with her and people like her is she's never satisfied. It's part of what makes her work ethic so strong. But it's the other thing, the other part of it is like, she's literally never satisfied it. You know, she, she can never look young enough. She can never look. So

1 (19m 13s):
With Michael Jackson, right? Like his, his drive, his, his perfectionism, his are the things that made him a mega star in part, I mean, talent too. But like talent is a lot of, for me made up of drive and so, and timing, but also drive and, and not giving up before the miracle happens for you, whatever that is. But like, but that's the same thing, right? Like you're saying that made him go over the edge of bonkers land, like bonkers land. And then you add all the money and nobody wants to tell them no, like working for, working for Nick cage, I experienced that all the time.

1 (19m 53s):
People were petrified to tell him no, don't buy that thing because it's going to be bad in the long run. People

2 (20m 2s):
Just fire them. Well, I think that was

1 (20m 4s):
The fear or the fear of getting in trouble or disappointing your boss, people pleasing, all that stuff. Oh, are you? You have a cold.

2 (20m 15s):
Yes. I press the mute button while I'm blowing my nose.

1 (20m 18s):
Sorry. I heard you. I just, oh, poor baby.

2 (20m 24s):
It's okay. And we, my whole family is sick. We, but we tested. Nobody has COVID

1 (20m 29s):
It's just a cold. It sounds like a straight up cold. It's a straight up cold anyway. So, so I, I just, I, you know, it just brings up a lot of stuff for me about like, how far am I willing to go to, to not change? That's the thing like we, we were trying not to change. I don't think when change is part of life. And then by doing that, we counteract it by doing all these changes that look crazy. It's just, it's just intense. And someone was asking me, how does it feel to be 46? And I said, here's the thing. I am taking better care of myself than I ever have my whole life.

1 (21m 11s):
If I was in a bad place with that, I think the age really would bother me. But I really acknowledge that I am not, I am not perfect, but I have a practice of how to take better care of myself than I did a year ago. So I'm going in the right direction. I'm also not famous with cameras in my face every two seconds. I don't know what that's like. That must be weird. So look, I'm not saying,

2 (21m 38s):
Yeah, that's the thing. It's everybody has their shit. Like it honestly doesn't matter what, what your situation is. Everybody has their shit and you're always going to have your shit. And you're never going to reach a point where you're like, oh, finally, free of all that. It's just the process. It's just the presence of letting go. So did you start watching the way down? Oh, she, I read that story has everything. It has cults. It has religion. It has anorexia, it has learner child abuse. And I was just like, wow. It has every conceivable storyline.

1 (22m 20s):
I was full transparency. I read the article and then I saw some YouTube, but I haven't watched the actual thing yet, but I, I don't believe it's hard to believe that this is real. So why don't you tell people what we're talking about?

2 (22m 35s):
Okay. So the way down is a documentary, a docu series on HBO max. And I have to say, it's not like the best documentary. It feels very rushed. I, you know, because it all just happened. It all literally just happened. Trying to

1 (22m 50s):
Get a jump on the

2 (22m 51s):
Whole, trying to get the jump on it. And it's beautifully photographed and everything like that. But it's like, but wait, there's so much left on set. It's like, they just gloss over certain, certain things that you were like, wait, but I want to know so much more about that. So, and what's crazy. The craziest thing is that I never heard of this story and it's such a big deal. Okay. So this woman named Gwen Shamblin was part of something called the church of Christ, which has been around for 200 years. It's a very, you know, fundamentalist Christian religion, where women can't hold positions of leadership and blah, blah, blah. She was a part of that church.

2 (23m 32s):
She started something in the eighties called way down, w E I G H down ministries. And she did weight loss for the Lord. Jesus, doesn't like you fat. And instead of down to the refrigerator, you bow down to him. And she made the tapes and she remembered the days where you'd like, get the cassette tapes. She made a ton of money. And then she started her own church because why wouldn't she, she, she was getting, you know, successful. And, and, and that allowed her to be the leader, but she never said that she was the leader.

2 (24m 12s):
She always said the leader was all these men behind her. But of course, if it was her church and it, it just became a really serious, serious cult that people had to get out of. And it's exactly like Scientology in that way. And people who left get followed by private investigators and lots of money gets funneled into legal defense whenever they get sued. And it has this tax exempt status because it's a church and it's just basically a scam. She got into a plane, crash and died. She had her husband and two other or three other leaders in the church were in a small plane in Smyrna, Georgia, that on takeoff, it crashed.

2 (24m 56s):
And so now one of the most interesting parts of the story is she had two children and the son was a guy is a guy who used music like that was his ministry, playing guitar and singing. And she really wanted him to take over the church, but he has a weight problem. He fluctuates, he goes up and down with his weight. So therefore he cannot be the leader of the church. And her daughter looks like a true and sincere skeleton. And that's, who's that's who has taken over the church. And this woman had the audacity on more than one occasion to say that in the death camps, the, the people lost weight because they didn't have food.

2 (25m 48s):
So that's like her role model, right? I mean like the daughter's role model or the lady, that's what Gwen said, God. So she's crazy. And a megalomaniac. And it's all about psychology because she was part of a church that wouldn't allow her to be a leader. And the guy she married is with some, after she dumped the husband who was fat, the guy she married second was a guy who played Tarzan on the TV movie of Tarzan, who was always looking for his next sugar mama and wanted to have a country music career. So he moved to tendons, all happens in Tennessee.

2 (26m 29s):
So he moved to Tennessee and met her and they became the power couple. Anyway, it's not that, like I say, it's not that it's an amazing documentary, but it's an amazing story. Yeah. I find on HBO max. And

1 (26m 43s):
I think that it is very, I mean, it just makes it, it makes perfect sense to me, the church of, you know, the church of weight loss,

2 (26m 55s):
Honestly, anorexia is the religion. That, that, that was my takeaway. Like, okay. So what all we've done here is we've turned a mental illness into a religion. Okay. All right. I mean, in some ways there's nothing more to, to be said about it, except there was a bunch of horrible shit that happened, including a child being murdered by his parents, because he was, they teach the parents to beat the children so that they are sit completely still during three hour church services, what go wacko wacko. So those, those are two of the things that, you know, being sick means like watch a lot of TV. So I watched nine perfect strangers.

2 (27m 36s):
I watched the way down. I started to watch the many saints of Newark, the Sopranos. I wasn't that into it. I didn't make it all the way.

1 (27m 43s):
I didn't, I didn't start it yet. It was boring too.

2 (27m 48s):
I mean, the thing I liked about it was drawing the lines like, oh, this is the young Paulie walnuts. Oh, this is, you know, that was kind of interesting. And there's nothing wrong with that per se, but it just, yeah, it just didn't grab me. And then the other thing I'm doing is I'm listening to a podcast called the plot thickens, which is hosted by Manco. It's his grandson. Oh yeah. And he just goes through like two, three of these Hollywood stories. So I'm listening to the story right now. The in-depth story of the making of the movie, the bonfire of the vanities, which I never saw, but it's an interesting podcast.

2 (28m 28s):
If anybody wants to check it out.

1 (28m 30s):
Oh, fantastic. You're busy. I'm I'm just doing, I'm doing, we're just obsessed with glee right now. Like I can't stop watching glee. No, we're, we're starting, we're starting from the beginning. It went from 2000. It was six years started in 2009 and miles stumbled upon it. And I started watching it and I thought, holy crap, this is so interesting to see the origins before. Right. Ryan Murphy did American horror story. Like what? That got what? So, but you can see inklings of it. It's I don't know if you saw it, the Barry dark show in some ways, all my, they tackled these subjects, abortion anorexia with song, but also they really straddle a line of all these kids don't look like they were in high school so they can get away with it's so crazy.

1 (29m 27s):
And some stuff would not go over now at all. You're like, that's not appropriate. But I think the genius is mixing the song with the crazy heavy subjects with the dancing and singing that is phenomenal. Like these singers are some of them, not all of them, but you're like, this is an example of a truly innovative television show. And it was, you know, and, and she was great Jane Lynch.

2 (29m 58s):
Oh yeah. Yeah. She's, she's

1 (30m 0s):
Phenomenal. And she's, she was great. And I, I, once I just shouldn't for her, she was, she was Phil. I have a special spot in my heart. First. She was directing a commercial and starring in it in Chicago for like Illinois tourism. And I got a call back and she was in the room for callbacks and she was hilarious and lovely. And I had the best time. And my favorite line that I said it was improv. Right. And at the end, I said, I said like, I'm supposed to, she's supposed to like, say something mean to me. And then I, you know, whatever she's like says like, oh, keep it moving lady. And I said, and I just turned to her. And I looked at her and I said, Jay, I said, why do you hate me Jane Lynch?

1 (30m 46s):
And we all laugh. <inaudible>

2 (30m 57s):
So two of my children have been the target of anti-Semitism in the last month. Yeah. One of them, it was a whole big deal where he told us immediately, which was great. He told his teacher immediately, which was great. And then when he came home and told us we really worked collaboratively and actually it was, I it's all due to my husband because he's been through this before he knew right away what we needed to do, which was get other kids who were in the room, who heard it to corroborate on Snapchat.

2 (31m 40s):
So we had our son basically reach out to these kids on staff and be like, Hey, remember that thing that kid said, blah, blah, blah. And he got like three kids to corroborate. I communicated with the mother and just said, I'm just letting you know that this happened. And we're going to be following up with the school. And then we wrote a kick-ass letter to the administration that was like, listen, you know, you have these policies that are great, but like, this is a racist town. And this is a big pro antisemitism is a big problem here. And like, basically, what are you going to do about it?

2 (32m 21s):
And, and also what can we do to help you? And it, it all had a very, mostly happy ending. The kid got suspended and dealt with and there, the school has already been working closely with the Anti-Defamation league. And we had a very productive with the principal and we all, it all felt great. The only downside was like that the kid who did it was popular. So, so kids were coming up to my son being like, why'd you get so-and-so suspended, but you know, I mean, nothing terrible. So I dinner on Sunday night and we're talking about something. And then I bring up like, how, how great I felt like the school handled that, that issue.

2 (33m 6s):
And then my other son goes, oh yeah, that reminds me. And then he tells us the story that last week on Thursday, he's in this class and this kid as a quote, unquote joke just starts being like ju ju ju ju ju, and then wrote a swastika on my son's water, water bottle. And he's telling us the story, like a, such an aside. And oh, and actually it got brought up because when I was talking about the first story I said, and I'm sure there's a bunch of other incidents that have happened like this, that you've never told us about. And then that's when my 13 year old pipes up and he goes, oh yeah, it happened to me on Thursday.

2 (33m 49s):
Well, it's significant because it's significant. But B because the very next day he, I got a phone call from the principal because they couldn't locate him right there called it was during our, she called me up and she said, we cannot locate your child. And it, and it turns out he was hiding in the bathroom and he, you know, and I thought it was because he just wanted to, you know, watch TV, which is what he did. He was watching TV on his phone and we had a whole constantly talk about it and consequences. And it was a whole thing. But then, and we're trying to ask him, what was it motivated by?

2 (34m 31s):
What was it motivated by? And he kept saying like, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. And then he tells us the story and it was that class, the class that he's left, that he skipped out on was the class that the day before this kid had done that job and we're going, honey, don't you think there's any relationship, but I understand why he teases. I understand why he keeps it separate in his mind, because if you really see it's too painful, right. So he's like, he kept saying like, but it really didn't affect me. And I said, okay, you know what, that's fine. It doesn't have to have affected you. And we're not going to pursue it in the same way that we pursued. The other thing, I mean, I did let the principal know, but we're not like asking for a meeting and asking for no punishment for this other kid.

2 (35m 17s):
We're just saying like, Hey, FYI, this is going on. And you know, the thing that I wanted to run by you is just like, as, as parents, we have to do a lot of balancing, standing up for our kids and doing the right thing with their desire. That's a very understandable to not be ostracized further for, for having said something. And it's just this untenable position where like, you're damned if you do. And you're damned if you don't, if you don't say anything and you go along, that's why this, this stuff persists. And if you do say something, then they say, why did you make such a big deal out of it?

2 (35m 58s):
Like we just can't win. And I actually don't even really know what I want to say about it, except for that it happened.

1 (36m 7s):
Yeah. Maybe you just need to say that it happened out loud. And like, also to know that one, it's a really, you're right. It's a, it's a, it's a unwinnable position and it is as a parents and it is a not there really that those kids and that, you know, this, this is happening to put you in that position. And it's really disturbing that it's happening. It's not altogether shocking, but it's disturbing. And I think it's like, yeah, what, what, when do we want to, what hill are we willing to die on in terms of, and you did make a stand with, with there, there, my guess is it's different schools or different schools.

1 (37m 1s):
So you took a stand with the high school, right? Yeah. Which I think is really important because high school is. So it's like, when you learn all this stuff about, oh my God, what is happening in the world? That's when I started to be like, oh my gosh, really? Knowing like, what's what is right? What is wrong and why, why? And social stuff. So I think, but I think that by, right, I think by doing that, you set a tone for the family and the town and that you, it, just, to me, it's like, it's not even pick your battles.

1 (37m 41s):
It's like pick where it's going to be painful. Right. So like, where does the pain, where am I focusing the pain body? And you can't focus it on too many things at one time, right. Or you'll die. I mean, everyone would have it. So you're doing what you're doing is like meeting of the minds of the parenting. I mean, I think you handled this situation impeccably in terms of not ignoring it, which is what God bless my parents, you know, probably would have done not getting completely hysterical and calling 9 1 1 and the news, because that that's like very reactionary and that's also would have been fine reaction, but I'm not sure that it helps the kid.

1 (38m 27s):
And you're so you did you, what I'm hearing is that you did, like, you did a concerted effort to like triage the situation in a way that was going to be the least amount of pain possible without sweeping it under the rug. And something was, cannot get swept under the rug because they just, as we know, come back bigger and batter and uglier.

2 (38m 50s):
And actually I had this very conversation with my son because he, he, he kept being like, it's not that big of a deal. And I said, listen, this is the thing that people don't realize when, when they think about genocide of any kind, it doesn't start with one day. Some tyrant comes in and starts killing everybody. It starts with like, don't you think those people are pretty lame. Don't you think those people are pretty disgusting? Don't you think those people are pretty evil? Let's kill them all. I mean, it's just like, it's just a series of steps that, you know,

1 (39m 23s):
You're readily.

2 (39m 24s):
If you could interject at steps one and two, maybe we don't get to step four. Maybe we do either way, but that's exactly what is that, that is the sort of creeping crud of our country right now.

1 (39m 39s):
It also ties, it ties into like Tim, for me, if I had a kid, I would say, listen, my people pleasing to sweep things under the rug has caused so much damage to myself and other people. And that by sweeping this under the rug or pretending and being that it didn't happen and not taking steps to protect you and our family and the rest of the world, what I'm doing is actually super harmful to us and is very dangerous in a way, my people pleasing desire to not follow through on this, which I can totally relate to. You know, if you might have that as a kid, I would say is going to kill us one day.

1 (40m 20s):
So like, I can't, you know, and it becomes like a, it's like a life and death, like dangerous health issue. You know what I mean? Like to ignore shit like this, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a health crisis, really, if you don't and I don't want to be a part of that anymore. And, and, but it's also like, yeah, it's going to be really uncomfortable. It's going to be really uncomfortable for everybody involved

2 (40m 45s):
Pretty much.

1 (40m 46s):
Wow. Wow. Okay. Get it together, get it together. Schools scattered to get it together, towns, get it together. And also it shouldn't just be, and I, I, I it's, it's interesting, you know, I will one final thing. It's like, get it together, allies. That's what I will say. We as allies that I, you know, I am not a Jewish person, but I had to, you know, it's like, I have to call myself out and say, okay, if I was in that classroom, what would I do? What would I say? Because it's going to happen in some contexts some way. And I am not Jewish. It doesn't matter that I'm not like, that's the thing.

1 (41m 27s):
You know

2 (41m 33s):
That,

3 (41m 37s):
Well, those survivors, this week we are guest lists or another way of saying it is we are the guests we are talking about on the essentially one year anniversary of our starting this endeavor, what our thoughts are now, after all these conversations, what we think now about survival, please enjoy.

1 (42m 4s):
I thought, I thought, you know, I thought that if you were right black and white thinking, like if someone said, no, that meant many things, but it meant no forever, no one, you know, on the core of who you are no forever, like you're done. And I'm realizing as I get this past year and a half as we've lived through this time, and as I've moved and as I, I, I just have realizing like, oh my gosh, like, yeah, things are a lot more loosey goosey than I would have predicted in my life in terms of everything is nothing.

1 (42m 49s):
Nothing, nothing seems linear anymore. Like, because of the pandemic and time doesn't seem linear anymore. And like, because the pandemic, all this and, and, and the aftermath and the election, nothing seems right. Predictable steps. Right. So I always thought that there were predictable steps in life. It's, couldn't be further from the truth. I, I, I'm just seeing it in front of my face with my life and other people's lives. So I wanted to share this response because when I shared about it online, people like messaged me and were like, oh my gosh, I so needed this. And I think the thing they needed is the idea that, right, right.

1 (43m 33s):
Someone could genuinely want to help you, but think that their help may harm you or not help you. Like, it's just not a right fit. And it does it. And, and, and look, they could be bullshitting too. It doesn't even, but like the thing is that their people aren't bad when they say no. And I think that comes down to, to, to my, you know, obviously my people pleasing and stuff like that. But I thought if someone told, you know, either you were bad or they were bad, someone had to be bad and oh, yeah. That's not true. I'm just like, oh, that's not the case. So like, anyway, I'm just having all these realizations this morning.

1 (44m 13s):
So I just wanted to share this letter because I think it's really important to put it out there to people that like you can be told. No, but it can also be a good thing. Like I just had no idea that this was possible, so, okay. I'm going to write, I'm going to read it. Cause it's so hopeful. So background is, I sent a query about my writing to a woman that I had followed and followed her clients and wanted just thought she's she's in New York city, but I thought, what the heck I'll reach out? She seems really cool. She has like, she, she puts on her Twitter profile that she's an advocate. So I was like, okay, I will totally, totally, totally reach out to this lady, which I did.

1 (44m 56s):
And I wrote a really kick ass letter. But the point is, I want to read this. Okay. Hi Jen. Well, thank you for one of the best query letters I've ever received. The next time I speaking to a class and telling them how to communicate by email, I should perform this. I couldn't agree more that you have all the makings of a future bad-ass TV writer. I know this is the perpetual AEA membership slash chicken and egg equation, but I don't think it would be helpful for me to introduce you cold to someone in my TV department. They are too overwhelmed with chasing the people, their clients and buyers are putting in their path and looking to NAB people out of the CAA ICM merger.

1 (45m 38s):
So I'll say this, if a showrunner meeting turns into a job offer and you're taking agency meetings, please circle back and I'll hook you up with someone in LA. In the meantime, know that you delighted an agent who gets terrible query emails all day long and wonders why anyone would waste their time writing them, which tells me someone with your savvy and Moxy and hustle is going to get their break and tear the walls down to remake Hollywood love.

2 (46m 8s):
Oh my goodness. Great.

1 (46m 13s):
So, so, so it's just, it's a case in point of like, this lady does not run at this moment to do the thing I want her to do, right. She does not want to have to introduce me to her lit team, but

2 (46m 27s):
She did a very important reason, a

1 (46m 30s):
Specific, important reason. She also took the time. What I'm saying is we can take the time to, if we are called to, to write or to respond in a way, even with a no, that is helpful for gosh. Even if she hadn't said it would have been enough, if she had said, thank you for your query. I don't think I can actually help you at this point. But she went further and all that stuff is lovely and it gives me hope and, and it, and it sort of speaks to me about survival. It's what helps me to survive is that kind of the kindness, but it's also just, it's just response. It just felt like a really responsible response.

2 (47m 13s):
Yes. And for people who have never had the privilege of reading of buzzes query letters, what you are is radically genuine. You, you get across information that everybody has to get across, like who you are and what you're asking for and what your background is and what you bring to the table. But you're not doing it in a boiler plate way. And I think that probably, maybe not a high percentage, but maybe the majority of people writing these letters, they've, they've looked online, they've looked for an example of a query letter. They've modified it, you know, to, with their particulars and called it a day. And your thing is like, no, no, let me tell you who I am.

2 (47m 55s):
And I, I couldn't agree with her more, first of all, and it's so amazing that she got to the scent, you know, she got, well, I mean, it's not so amazing because you told her exactly who you were. She knew exactly who you were and she saw the goodness in you.

1 (48m 15s):
I just was shocked. And I, and I celebrated as if she had said the thing I wanted her to say, it was crazy. And I've never done that in my life. Never. It was always like, oh yeah, she could say, or they could say all that stuff, but they didn't give me what I wanted. They didn't do the thing I wanted them to do, or I think I want them to do so I throw the baby out with the bath water and F that, or F me is more, more, but I just, this time, I thought I'm not going to do that

2 (48m 47s):
When I'm casting something and I have people to call backs and then I don't cast them. I write them all individual emails. And I say, listen, this, I don't maybe necessarily say like, this is what you don't have, but I say, this is what you do have. And I'm sorry, it didn't work out for this. And to a person. They all wrote me back like, oh my God, I can't believe you took the time to, and granted I'm not like some big wig, so I have more time, but still put putting just a little goes a long way. And this is, this is the thing that I'm hearing kind of in the zeitgeists right now, apropos of, you know, Broadway being back and people on theater, Twitter are saying, listen, we're not going to return to just these work 24 hours a day and make $5 like that, that, that has to be over.

2 (49m 43s):
And this is that classic thing of like, is, does one grain of whatever it was one drop of water, make a difference. No, but an ocean can kill the entire population. So if people band together, well, if people identify who they are, identify what they want, figure out the boundaries that, that, that they have, and then stick to them. That is undeniable. You can't have a bunch of executives or people in charge hiring people.

2 (50m 23s):
If all of those people say, I refuse to be treated badly. Right. It's got to start somewhere. Yeah. It's got to start somewhere and it's, and so I really feel a sea change. And I think it is another, you know, silver lining of the pandemic because people have really, re-evaluated, what's important to them. And a lot of people are saying, I don't need to stand for this, you know, mistreatment anymore. So good for you. That's awesome. And that is atta boys and girls. That is one of the things that helps you survive. Yeah. So I just wanted to start out with that because I just really that's fantastic.

2 (51m 6s):
So today we are without a guest, but today we're, it's been a year since we started this podcast. And w I think that when we started it, we, we thought, or I'll speak for myself when we started it. I thought, oh, this'll be a fun way to kind of put ourselves out there so that we can then go on and do the next thing. And what I've come to is this is, yeah, it is fun, but this is turns out to be an important thing on its own. Even if it's only for the, you know, 200 people who are directly affected, you know, by the stories that we've been telling about their theater school experience.

2 (51m 55s):
Because the thing that I've been coming to in this last year and a half, I mean, and I'll preface this to say, like, if you don't like to hear about touchy, feely things, maybe this isn't going to be the episode for you. I have changed and learned so much in these last months, years. I mean, it's like a toe, it's nothing short of a total transformation in terms of what's important. And, and I previously would've thought of a transformation as only being something that happened to me externally, how I looked okay.

2 (52m 38s):
But the transformation that really needed to happen this whole time, it was an internal transformation. It was started by, I mean, it was started by a lot of things. It was, it was accelerated by the pandemic and by my sister's death. And by this podcast, having the opportunity to reflect, to help people reflect on their time and then to in turn, reflect on my time. And I've really like, pretty much answered all of the questions about why, what happened, happened in a way that I didn't know that I needed to do.

2 (53m 19s):
I didn't know when we started this, that I needed to process theater school. I had no idea when I decided to not pursue a career in this anymore. I shut the door and I pretended like it was over. And I pretended, like, I didn't need to think about it again. I also pretended like, I didn't need to have a creative outlet and that, you know, and it was problematic for that, but this has made me, yeah, just this isn't made me do something that I didn't know needed to be done. And we have heard the same thing from other yeah.

1 (54m 0s):
Over and over. I mean, I think it's just the idea. Yeah. It turned from sort of a, yeah, like a, I, I agree like a way of saying, Hey, here we are. What is the vehicle that we can sort of, that we have a common bond between us, a common shared experience in our past. And let's talk about that. And then let's bring on people that also like, let's make the circle bigger, but it really has turned into this, this, this healing opportunity for us big time. But also for other people that like, have never talked about their experience, going to a theater conservatory ever before.

1 (54m 44s):
And I mean, that's insane. So it, it, it, to me, if nothing else, the people, yeah. If nothing else you're right. Like even if, even if it was just for us, even if it was just for you and me, even if it was just for you, even if it was just for, but it's not. But even if it was, I think that's important because like you said, there, there, we never fully shut the door on anything. You can pretend good for you. If you can pretend maybe good for you. I dunno. But like, you, you can't, it doesn't work that way. Like, that's not how we're built as animals, right. It just, you can try good luck to you.

1 (55m 25s):
It comes back, it comes back, everything comes back. And it, it has to, because either it comes back and you deal with it, or it comes back and you keep trying to shut the door until you either, you know, whatever becomes harmful. It becomes a painful, harmful reminder that you're not looking at something and you can, you can deny it. I could deny it for the rest of my life, but let me tell you something. It's, it's, I, I, I'm going to have, I mean, it's not just the theater school, but any experience, then I'm going to have heart issues. Right. I know for me, if I don't deal with my rage and that's part of going to the whole theater school and becoming an actor and not being picked and all that shit that we talked about that, or talk about that, it turns into rage for me and sadness.

1 (56m 12s):
If I don't look at my rage and sadness, I get really sick. I'm not saying I cause it, I want it. I deserve it. But I'm saying that is my experience, that when I don't deal with my shit, I end up in trouble, trouble, like tangible trouble that I need medications for.

2 (56m 27s):
Yeah. And my experience when I don't deal with that stuff is that I am hard to love and, and hard to give love, you know, like that's where, that's where things go off the rails for me, because what I have also learned is my primary coping mechanism that I'm sure I've had since childhood is dissociation. It is too, which is why I feel like theater school was a fog, which is why I have about certain areas of my life. Just memory gaps, depression causes memory loss too, or affects your memory. But, but specifically I've realized for me, it's trauma.

2 (57m 8s):
It's my ability to rut, you know, float outside of my body and behave as though I'm not really there. Yeah. I mean, and I'm not really,

1 (57m 21s):
And it is, you know, I've been, I watched another documentary about did disorder, dissociative identity disorder, and the first case posts the whole like right around the Sibyl time and that, but anyway, but, but one thing, whether or not the guy's faking or not, one thing you cannot deny is that the trauma of a human being a so T is, so it is so undeniable. The trauma is so undeniable that whether or not the guy was faking did, or whether we dissociation, we know comes from pain.

1 (58m 2s):
So two, you can deny anything you want, but the guy, whether the pain is self caused or other people hurt us. It's the real deal.

2 (58m 9s):
By the way, I just like to say something about when people talk about, you know, faking mental illness, faking mental illness is just a different kind of mental illness. Exactly. You are in a position where you don't have a certain illness and you feel that you need to pretend that you do, then you just have a different, we're just looking at the wrong thing.

1 (58m 35s):
So brilliant. Because, because it's like, let's look at why these people are lying. Lying comes from another coping mechanism because the truth is so painful. So it's all you're right. It's all part of the same thing. It's just the way it comes out yet. So, and also, yeah, if someone, yeah, right. I also don't give a shit if someone's faking a mental illness, unless they're trying to extort something from me because they're in pain like pain. So I think that that's the thing is like whether the trauma of going to theater school was minor medium or major. I think people are really sort of craving opportunities to look at it in a safe way.

1 (59m 19s):
That's not like we're not going to judge them. We're also, we don't care about the party line. We're not like we're also not police. We're not doing investigations on who did what and who said what? That's not our job. Our job, I think is really just to hold a space. And like, like for me anyway, provide a space and with humor and compassion and, and, and some sort of maybe insights, we hadn't the person our guests may not have thought about before and asking some questions, but like, yeah, we're providing a space for people to look at some of the stuff that went down that maybe is still affecting them today and getting in the way maybe of like having a light.

2 (59m 58s):
Yeah. Yeah. So I wrote down some notes too, and I thought maybe I would just go through them and you can, you can jump in when something resonates with you. But so in the year, since we began the podcast, I've had several major internal shifts. I began the journey of returning to my artistic brain about three years ago. And prior to that, it had been a long and dark tunnel that I wasn't sure I would ever get out of truly. I, wasn't not sure I would ever get out of the, just completely dark. I mean, I don't want to go too far into it, but I was, I went through a dark time and I didn't think it was gonna end.

2 (1h 0m 44s):
And

1 (1h 0m 45s):
How did it, I just want to know, like, I, I'm curious about the, you said like a creative, I mean, it sounds like it was dark in general, but in specific, like what was the creativity part that got shut down? Like, do you know like,

2 (1h 0m 58s):
Ah, well, when, when I decided to become a therapist, it was in part, a decision to, to leave behind any kind of thought of acting or writing or directing or making a living in the theater. Got it. And I think I just dealt with it in the way of like, I just closed the door and I couldn't see plays. It was too painful for me to go to see a play. And I mean, I watched TV and movies and stuff like that, but I really divorced myself that I felt like I must've felt like that was the only safe way to do it, you know, just completely shut it down.

2 (1h 1m 50s):
And w I did this without knowing that that would hurt me,

1 (1h 1m 55s):
Of course. Right. You're not, you didn't try to hurt yourself. Right. Cause I,

2 (1h 1m 59s):
I thought this thing about being an artist or whatever, it was just a luxury, it's just a, you know, like I, I never thought, and I know people would disagree with this, but that's okay. I never thought that art was a very vital and I'm like, like you have to have it in humanity has to have it. And we know this because humanity has had it since cave paintings. Okay. We have an innate desire to make meaning of our lives, through the expression of art full stop. And if you're a person who, for whatever reason is born with this need to express yourself in an artistic way, you simply cannot ignore it.

2 (1h 2m 44s):
B B because it's like having a thirst or a hunger that, you know, it doesn't go away just because you're not feeding it. In fact, it creates depression. I think, I think it created a depression in me. Does that answer your question? That answers my question completely. Yeah. Very, very good. So being able to express myself and to find meaning where I had lost my way was crucial, has been crucial to my ability to flourish. And even though it's been almost two years of a pandemic, I've somehow found a kind of personal wellness. I wasn't sure I would ever return to thinking about my time at the theater school began as a heavy thick cloud. There was debris I needed to wait way through.

2 (1h 3m 26s):
This is informed somewhat by I just watched the nine 11 documentary and I had never, I never have gone to the museum or anything like that. I really never engaged with it. I, I I've seen those. I had seen those pictures of people covered in the dust, but I hadn't ever really walked myself through what happened when the, when the, when the buildings collapsed and how that created nothing short of, of like a volcano of debris. When I was watching it, I was thinking, okay, this is kind of what I was doing in the younger part of my life. Sort of walking through in this haze and this cloud.

2 (1h 4m 9s):
And I don't know, but I'm just going to keep walking. And so that, that informed this little image I have here. And so the, so my relationship to myself needed the greatest examination. And my relationship with others was both a thing that saved me in theater school. The biggest reason I think I survived in theater school was because of others, but it was the thing. So here's the thing. Life is with others. There's a good book by Donald Cohen called life is with others. You S maybe some people can have very select few people, but you have to live your life with other people.

2 (1h 4m 50s):
We're pack animals. And if you, if your ability to relate to other people is impaired. If your ability to re to relate to yourself as impaired, you feel you suffer, you feel isolated, you feel alone. And, and I think where I hurt myself, I also hurt other people, my, my inability to get, get out of my own self centered fear at times my made me not present for my friends who were the reason that I survived.

2 (1h 5m 33s):
Right? That's this tricky little thing that I'm trying to unpack right now. And you and I have said a lot like that, we feel guilty that there's people who we don't really remember and, and things that we don't really remember, but it's not because those people weren't important or memorable it's because we were too under the cloud of our own debris. Yeah.

1 (1h 5m 60s):
Yeah. That is such a good way to put it. And, and literally the level of immaturity because of my trauma and because of my pain and my self centered, and that turns into self centered fear I could not see is this it's as if I had blinders on to really see people and listen to them and be present. Like you said, like, yeah, it was not possible the way I was functioning. I think it was either. Yeah. I mean, I, for me, I, I, I'm pretty sure it was either like, sort of like put the blinders on or you're going to die. I mean, like, what, what are you going to do? So you put your, you just get covered in the stuff and you keep walking.

1 (1h 6m 41s):
I heard that

2 (1h 6m 42s):
This quote, one time on a podcast that was about a reality show. And this guy said, I think he was describing a person. I think she went on this Ray. I think she didn't know who she was. And so she went on a reality show hoping to find herself. And I think that's what a lot of people are drawn to theater school. And you don't know who I am. I mean, yeah. They like acting they're artists, whatever, but I don't know who I am. Maybe I'll find it out here and not just say you don't do that with other programs too. I'm sure you can do that with a variety of programs, but it really like, it really gets highlighted in theater school because we're being asked to access ourselves so much. I mean,

1 (1h 7m 21s):
It's so interesting. It's like, there is a mix of, and maybe this is how like conservatory trainings developed. And I've talked a little bit about this before, but there's like a, such a crazy mix of touchy, feely find yourself, but also no don't indulge yourself and do the hard work and be really professional. It's a very complicated task to merge those two. So like roll around on the floor and learn, learn who you are and express yourself freely, but not, but not too much. And also in this way, that is still going to create a good product that is still going to, you know, it, there are rules, you know, and, and I think it was like, I just didn't under, I didn't understand the rules.

1 (1h 8m 8s):
Like I couldn't, I couldn't say, oh, okay. Like, come as you are, but not, but don't take up too much time or space or energy from people. So it was a mixed, it's a mixed message. And I think that's just the nature of training and schooling and yeah. Yeah. So I felt like, oh yeah, I can find out who I am at this hippy-dippy place, but not really. Like, it's not really, that's not the point of it really.

2 (1h 8m 33s):
Yeah. Like you, and I think we weren't ready to. I mean, there, there's a reason that people don't come to this stuff until there are ages. There's a reason why this is always the part of people's lives, where they start to do reflection at you when you're in the middle of setting your life up and creating all the architecture and infrastructure for your life. Life is extremely fast paced and it's all, life is a lot more about the logistics when you're younger and my next job. And I have to move to my next apartment in my next relationship and dah, dah, dah, dah, that is very consuming.

2 (1h 9m 16s):
So most people by the time they're our age, a lot of that has settled down. They know what their partner is and they know where they're living. And, and then, and then it's time because even if we had had the greatest therapist, let's say, when we were in theater school, we would not have been capable of doing the work that we needed to do. Yeah. Okay. So Yeah. Memory gaps related to the trauma that I hadn't processed before theater school, that made me dissociate while I was there. What actually made me survive.

2 (1h 9m 58s):
I haven't been previously aware of the importance I have not previously. And this is germane of what I was saying about life is with others. I really think I have mostly taken relationships for granted in my life. Like relationships. It's not a thing you have to work on. It's not, you know, it's just, there's people in your life and therefore you have relationships with them. And if they leave your life, you know, maybe that's painful. But I had not really seen that. Our relationship is like a, I don't want to say it's like a job, but it's like a, it's a project having a relationship with somebody is a project that you have to have an intention for and you have to have skills to do it well, and you have to have the capacity to assess how you're doing with it.

2 (1h 10m 57s):
And, and, and not, not to make it seem like it's, I don't know, financial thing. I just mean if you're not treating your relationships, like they're a thing that you have to work on, then you should probably work on that. Yeah.

1 (1h 11m 13s):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I, yeah. I didn't know. I don't think what relationships were. I thought relationships were because, because I think my self esteem was so low. I thought it was like the only relationship that, that really mattered was the one with your parents. And then the one with your romantic interest. Right. Love interests. Right.

2 (1h 11m 37s):
<inaudible> but even those, all three of those is about whether or not they approved.

1 (1h 11m 42s):
Right. Right. It's not relationships really. But that's what I thought it was. I thought it was that. And now I'm like, oh, I have to participate in my own life. Like I have to, I am part, I live here in this life. Like, I didn't think I lived here. You know, when people say, you know, I like her, but there's no, there, there, I never understood what that meant until I'm like, oh, because I felt like I can relate to that of not being a, their, their, you know, not being a there, there in my own life. And I'm like, oh, yes. There's no, there's no, there, there, you have to be there in your own life.

1 (1h 12m 24s):
Like fully present to show up. And I never knew, okay. Miles. We've got this situation going, oh, it got a little

2 (1h 12m 32s):
Doors.

1 (1h 12m 32s):
Hello, dog smiles. Can you get to her side of here? She came in. Dar she's a star. Doris is a star. What? Okay. I don't know. She opens the door. She's magic. All right. Sorry about that

2 (1h 12m 55s):
Retention. Thanks.

1 (1h 12m 57s):
Okay. Anyway, once your attention, if there. Yeah, she totally does. So if there's no, there, there you have no hope of ever getting better in getting, having better relationships. I didn't understand that. I thought, oh, you're pretty and skinny. And you, then you find someone that adores you and then you find relationships that are great because people hire you. I didn't get it. I, I didn't get it. And so when people are like, go back, come back to me and say, you know, I always thought you were, so you were so nice, but you were so like, oh, like even in grad school, these people were like, oh, you always left at lunch and went and got a manicure or like weren't available to us.

1 (1h 13m 39s):
And I was like, what? Because I spent the whole time thinking they didn't like me. They were all part of a thing. I lived in Chicago. They lived in LA and my school, my grad school. And I flew in, I didn't, I just totally separated myself. But believe me, it wasn't because I ha I had a choice. I felt I had a choice.

2 (1h 13m 58s):
Oh girl. I relate to that so much. That exact thing. I have left so many social situations with the assumption that the people didn't like me and that I needed to remove myself from them only to find out later that they were, they didn't like it. That I left

1 (1h 14m 14s):
My friend. Yes. My, I remember my friend. I met up with her later, Alexis, Alexa. And she was, and we met like 10 years after grad school tow so much had happened in both of our lives. And she was like, I always really wanted to be your friend, but you seemed so busy and preoccupied. I'm like, oh my God, that is the, I mean, I was preoccupied with my own stuff, but like, that's like the furthest thing. Yeah. I had nothing going on.

2 (1h 14m 44s):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So I really B because I, and by the way, I'm not saying that any 19 year old is amazing at having relationships. I'm not saying that I could, that I'm alone and being self-centered in my fear, but, but, but I'm just, it's significant to me that I'm now really able to own that. And so at the end of the day, the thing that helped me survive theater school was my friendships. My very first friend close friendship was with Whitney Powell.

2 (1h 15m 26s):
I haven't, I don't think I've ever really mentioned Whitney on the podcast. I don't even really necessarily remember how we became friends, but we were friends from like day one and we did everything together. And she was from the Chicago land area. So she like had a car and she introduced me to great things. And we did lots of drugs together, which even though, you know, I wouldn't do that now. It was very important to me at the time. It actually, drugs really did kind of open an important window for me or a door, whatever you want to call it in my life.

2 (1h 16m 6s):
And then I became friends with Russell and he was a steadfast friend through school, Russell harden. And then I became friends with you. And I was so sad when you left in third year, because I just missed you so much. TJ was, was a great support to me, Patrick Belton, Sean Spratt, JP Cabrera, Chris Gerber, Jeff Brown, Anthony LoCascio Dave to small shin, Libby, Scott, who did not go to the theater school, but who I lived with and Dan Alexander are all people who helped me learn about myself and helped me in my endeavor to, to make art.

2 (1h 16m 54s):
And I'm sorry to all of the people that I really ignored and that I really didn't make time for. And I can tell you that it was not about you, whoever you are. It was about whatever my weird ass ideas were about who, you know, whatever myself, what I needed, what I didn't need. I'm not saying I would do it all over again differently because it had to be the way that it was. But anyway, I feel so much gratitude for the people. Oh. And not to mention the professors, you know, even if, even when I've had negative things to say they also opened doors for me.

2 (1h 17m 36s):
Yeah.

1 (1h 17m 37s):
I, I, I think that's, it's just nice to hear that. Like, yeah. Like I feel supported that I was supported through that time and know that yes. I, I just wasn't able, I didn't have the capacity to be a better friend.

2 (1h 17m 58s):
Yeah. Yeah. It's

1 (1h 17m 60s):
Just the truth. And I've worked on myself and I've, I've, I figured some things out, but I think this has, this has been, it's interesting to also come back to this and have guests on and, and everyone that we've had on pretty much from at least from the, you know, from DePaul, hasn't been like, like people forgive, like people who've been moved on for the most part, even though we have these painful trauma spots and pain spots, people are really like, for the most part, like I have found in my life, like, people are really not even forgiving, but they're like, they're like open, they've done their own.

1 (1h 18m 45s):
They've tried in some way, most of us to do their own work in some shape or form. And nobody's like, you know, there's very few people I've met that were like, oh my God, you were, you were, you were a jerk to me and I'll never forgive you or whatever.

2 (1h 19m 0s):
Yeah, no, because by the way, they were all inside of their own self centered too. Right. They're remembering their experiences through the lens of like thinking that everybody didn't like them. Oh, I mean, I just, I would love if I, if I could be a witch and conjure, I would love to go back in time and just have, go to one class and sit there and just watch how we all were, how we all related to each other, what we were clearly focused on, what, you know, I, it would be fast and I would pay $1 million to do that.

1 (1h 19m 44s):
I think I would be so simultaneously like petrified and excited. And like, I hope that I wouldn't spend the whole time going, oh my God, I was so skinny. And I thought I was so fat. Like, that's my fear. But, but after I got over that, I would, I would hope that I would be, I think I would get over that and start watching everybody and be like, oh my gosh, we all such hilarious, precious, weird kids, kids that were just trying to get through. And some of us, you know, had more heads, more savvy in terms of getting through than others. And, but look, Hey, has anyone have you ever, this is a side note.

1 (1h 20m 29s):
Has anyone passed away that we know of from our

2 (1h 20m 32s):
Class, from our class?

1 (1h 20m 34s):
Isn't that,

2 (1h 20m 36s):
I'm the only person, the only person I ever think of as having died, like kind of close to that time or whatever was Michael Maggio, but not a students. I don't think so. Although there's some people I Just never heard, you know, I've never heard from,

1 (1h 20m 53s):
I just, I it's just weird. Cause you think we made it pretty far. If none of us really croaked, I mean, shit, the odds, you know, not good, but anyway, so yeah, I mean, I would love to go back as well. And I wish some of that, none of it was taped. Right. Cause this is pre

2 (1h 21m 11s):
Yeah. None of it. I know. That's what I was thinking too, watching that nine 11 documentary like, wow, there was enough people. I mean, I barely had a cell phone in 2001, there was enough people with cameras and it was before smartphones. So they weren't cameras on their phone. They had to have had a video camera.

1 (1h 21m 32s):
So I have a friend. Yeah. I have a friend that said as soon as, because her dad was an artist and I believe photographer and, and I believe instilled in her like always start taking pictures. So she was down there that day and she went into a bodega and bought like 10 disposable cameras and just started clicking, clicking, clicking, Clichy knew. But I would have been so scared. I mean, I wouldn't have the, for the insight to do that, but yet people started clicking. They started, I mean, people knew.

2 (1h 22m 2s):
Yeah. And because of that, they, you know, they were, they've been able to make these comprehensive, you know, putting together the story because that was the thing about that day is like, you know, on the news, they did not want to show the people jumping from the buildings. Thank you for that. But that means, I didn't know about that. And for, until like five years ago, right. I, I had some vague understanding. Did you sit there all day and watch the news?

1 (1h 22m 32s):
Yeah. So I, I did for like the first we had a TV, which is shocking, cause we don't know, but it would have been all on. Anyway, we had an actual TV, I didn't have a cell phone, but yes. I watched the news for the first three days straight. And then, and then my, my roommate at the time was like, we gotta stop. We can't, this is, this is name.

2 (1h 22m 56s):
Yeah. Yeah. It was insane, but it was okay. And here's another weird thing about processing stuff. I didn't have anything to do with nine 11. My closest connection to it was that I was supposed to have been working there. You know, when I was contemplating doing a graduate degree in that's something we've never talked about before I had a conversation for another time, I went through this period of trying to go to graduate school for some esoteric theater.

2 (1h 23m 36s):
I don't even, I say, I can't even remember. It was trying to get my PhD in theater, somehow theater, not like theater of the mind. I like abstract concepts of theater. It was just the wrong thing for me. But one of the programs that I was looking at was that NYU and I got into it. And the reason I did and I was working at Deloitte and Touche in San Francisco at the time. And I had met with, or talked with somebody from corporate and they said that I could work part-time at the one. And it was at, it was at one of the shorter world trade. And I also, and I already knew what my schedule was going to be because I was going to have class Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and then I was going to work on Tuesdays and Thursday.

2 (1h 24m 17s):
So I know I would have been there. That's the only connection I have to it. But I still, it was a trauma for our oh yeah. You know, even if you didn't, if you weren't there, even if you don't know anybody who died and, and as it turns out, I needed to process that too. And I watched this documentary and for me, I think the processing was like, oh, now I just have the story. Like I didn't have the story turning point. I'm sorry. Is it called turning point? Oh no, it's a national geographic thing. And I have, there's a million documentaries about nine 11. I've never watched any of them. And I thought, you know, it's probably time for me to like revisit that.

2 (1h 25m 1s):
And I did what I remember the, the, the traumatic thing I was working as a teacher in, oh, I enrichment California. So it was six 30 in the morning in California. We didn't have a TV. My, I didn't have a cell phone. So my, our phone was ringing. We were asleep and my phone was, our phone was ringing. And it was the time where millennials, we used to get answering machines. And when people would call, you could hear it turn on you. It would be a tape. And I fucking can't believe we have to explain this, but yes, they, and my mom was calling and then my half asleep.

2 (1h 25m 47s):
I'm like, why is she calling me so earlier, so early? And I heard her say she was, I heard her crying saying, I think it's world war three. I don't. I'm like, well, my mom's being dramatic. I went back to sleep. My dad, my dad calls Punkin, are you okay? So I got up and I went, I'm like, how do we, there's no TV. How do you find it? I ran down to grand avenue and I went into a bunch of places. Like, do you have a TV? And they're like, no, no. So I went into a bakery that had the guy, the guy was playing a radio and I just sat there.

2 (1h 26m 33s):
And, but then I had to go to work. So I got dressed and I went to work. And when I got there, you know, the, the, the administration was kinda milling around and they had, we had, we started the day with an assembly and, and then the principal told us what was happening more than what I knew. I thought it was an accident by the w by the time I was at school, I thought it was an accident. And when he told us I just started crying and then my students were shocked. You know, they were really affected by that. And I felt like I had to lie to them about why I was crying.

2 (1h 27m 13s):
I said, oh, I know people in New York, because I had this idea that it wasn't acceptable for me to be upset. Right. A bunch of people I didn't know, were dying. So anyway, so if you haven't processed nine 11 and you need to, I recommend watching a documentary about it. It's funny to think about the things that you like. You'd really just have to work through it all.

1 (1h 27m 39s):
You just really do. There's no, there's no way around it. If you're committed to personal health, like inner and outer, you, you got to process stuff. It's really hard. And it sucks, but I don't know of a different way.

2 (1h 27m 54s):
Yeah. Yeah. So what is the overarching thing that helped you survive?

1 (1h 28m 5s):
I would say the overarching thing that has helped me survive. Well, I'll start first in the small term is like this, of this last right of this last couple of years, or I don't even know, like the pandemic seems to have gone on for like this weird time. So I can't even say, but I would say the last two years has been a year and a half due, literally doing the next right thing for me, because I feel like taking care of immediate needs, processing information and trying to take the next right step has been the only way to not get overwhelmed and want to revert to really old behaviors, meaning that, and the way I could do that is just support of a team of a team of a team.

1 (1h 29m 8s):
So I am a huge proponent of when I started my healing work, I would say was really when my dad died right at 30. And I thought, I, it was the first time in my life. I was 30 years old. It was 2006. I thought I cannot do this by myself. It was the first time in my life. I knew that I, I was out of my league in terms of I can handle this. I could do this. I can make this work. I can, I can cope first time of my life. And that lesson has saved me of knowing that I, I cannot do it on my own, has saved me through the pandemic, through all the hard things in my life, meaning assemble a team, but like a real team, meaning I don't even mean a business team.

1 (1h 29m 54s):
People are like, what are you talking? But like, get yourself a care team. I think we all need care teams. Now look easier said than done, but let me tell you something I've gone to clinics. I've gone to free shit. I've gone to, I knew I've gotten free acupuncture. Like I think what, how I survive is somehow an a, maybe it's being the sort of neglected child of two weirdos, that the amount of resources that I am able to gather in a short amount of time, despite being in tremendous pain, the resource gathering has helped me to survive. So like, who do I need to call? Who can I contact? What, where can I, and then I was able to do that with my clients as a therapist.

1 (1h 30m 37s):
And then when my mom died, I was able to do it again for myself. And then when the pandemic hit, same thing, I was like, okay, what do we need? So it's interesting. I'm extremely right. As scared as I feel a lot of times when push comes to shove, I'm extremely good at gathering resources in a crisis. So I think that has helped me. It has also not allowed me at times to process things as they're happening, which I don't think we can do really, but, but, but it is. And it has prolonged my, my PR like opening back the door, but in the moment, if I can say, Hey, right, how can I get through this?

1 (1h 31m 22s):
Who can I ask for help? How can I help? It has, that has been my saving, saving grace of like my whole life of resource resource gathering and asking for help, even though I don't want to, but when push comes to shove, I shove, I will, I will say, Hey, I'm really struggling. But I learned that at 30. And I think it's helped me extremely in the last 16 years. So I cannot tell you the, the, the humbling, horrific hell experience of literally when my dad died dropping, I remember being in miles old childhood home, which was falling apart and being like dropping to my knees at one point and saying, okay, I cannot do this.

1 (1h 32m 12s):
I don't know. Who's running the show here. People talk about God, people talk, but I literally am at my wit's end. And it was the first time in my life that I had ever felt like that. And as scary as it was, it sort of led me to, to being really open, to asking for help. So for me, survival is extremely linked, like true survival, like not just getting by true survival is linked to gathering resources and asking for help in any given situation. And that, that is just a team is so essential for when shit goes wrong, because it always goes wrong. Yeah.

2 (1h 32m 52s):
It takes a village.

1 (1h 32m 53s):
It literally does. I thought that was garbage. I thought that was complete. I thought that's what people say, who aren't strong enough, savvy enough. Cool. Enough, pretty enough. Thin enough, whatever enough. I thought that's garbage and it is truly not garbage. It is. It's not garbage because like the cave paintings, we've known about villages since the beginning of freaking humankind. So of course it takes a village

2 (1h 33m 19s):
And there's all, what makes me sad sometimes is to think about all the people like my sister, who are in their house right now, feeling alone, feeling isolated. And, and the thing is isolation because isolation, the more isolated you are, the less you can entertain the idea of ever reaching out to somebody or, or, or being with people. And I, I, I just, it pains me to think about how many people continue. Even with all the information that's available to all of us persist with the, with the false belief that nobody understands them.

2 (1h 34m 2s):
Nobody can help them, that they're unique in their suffering. It, that's why they call it in 12 step programs, terminal uniqueness, the more unique you think you are in your pain and your suffering, the likely you likely are, you are to die from that.

1 (1h 34m 23s):
The other thing I would say is like, if you are in pain, please wander into some kind of support group and you don't have to say anything. But that is, that is what saved me in terms of all kinds of groups, but like just wandering in and sitting down figuring and, and being like, I'm never coming back here again or whatever, but like just wander in and, and figure and sit down for a little bit, because if nothing else, so people are like, okay, but why did you end up, you know, in like, Alanon your dad, you know, your dad, wasn't a drinker. He was addicted to anyway, whatever it was literally like being, cause we don't have as adults, places to go to be babysat, right?

1 (1h 35m 8s):
Like we, we don't have that unless you check in somewhere, which is if you need to check in and check in, but I'm just saying like, I wasn't trying to hurt myself. I just didn't have anywhere to go. And so going to a 12 step group or any kind of support group, that's free, whatever your jam is. It was like, baby, I went to three meetings a day. Like I, because I had, what else was I doing? The other thing was I was going to be alone in my house, on my knees, crying and freaking out that I could not sustain because that would lead eventual to self harm. Because like, like we know like my father, like your sister that doesn't lead anywhere. That's good.

1 (1h 35m 49s):
So somewhere I must have known. And you know, I met people that were like, just come to this group. And I was like, I don't really belong here, but I have literally nothing else. In some ways I was blessed and encouraged that I had no job. I had no, nothing. I had nothing in my life other than a place to stay at my mother's house. Like, that's what I had. And so I was like, what do I do? Literally during the day, I don't know what to do. And I'm freaking out. And they were like, just go to a meeting. I was like, oh my God, I can't believe I'm going to church. Okay. Whatever. And then I thought, oh my gosh, these people aren't. I mean, some of them are weird, but like, no one's saying to me, what's your problem. What's wrong with you. You don't belong here. You have to hold it together.

1 (1h 36m 30s):
So they were saying things that worked for me and it was free. And I had nothing else to do. Literally my mother was working, everyone else was like, we have a life. Like, I don't know what you're doing. PS.

2 (1h 36m 41s):
There's not a person in the world who can't find some 12 step group to relate to, like right. As I've said, many times, our world is riddled with co-dependence. Even if your parents didn't drink, if you relate to the things that we've been talking about, trust me, I always say this about somebody else so that I know. Yeah. Your parents didn't drink, but your, you grew up in an alcoholic family. I don't know how else to tell you, but that's what they did. They did all of the other behaviors, you know,

1 (1h 37m 11s):
Coda, like go to any, I don't care what it is. If you have nowhere to go, those people will take you. I telling you, they will take you. And the shit is free. That's what I always say.

2 (1h 37m 23s):
Yeah. And the, and the principles are universally applicable. Yeah. And it didn't have to be about alcohol

1 (1h 37m 28s):
And it, and it just gave me a plate. Literally. Like I had no place to go until I got a little better. And then I could say, okay, now I feel like I could make an NPS. I ended up going to a day program because I was like, okay, I think I need a higher level of care because I'm not, I'm not functioning. And these people are trained in mental health. So let me go there. And I have the resources insurance-wise thank you, Nicholas cage. And so let me just go. And I was able to, but if you need a place to land, that's not going to like judge you and like, and like B and be assholes, then find yourself a 12 step group. That's how I've survived. That's really, all I can say is like people that have helped me and groups and then resources just re finding resources.

2 (1h 38m 15s):
And they're all Mo almost every 12 step group is, has online options now, or even calling. They have the, you know, you can call in to a meeting and you don't even have to say anything. You've got a word on your walk and have your ear phones in and just be listening to people. It's, it's it never ceases to amaze me. I finally gotten to the point where I can tell myself if I'm feeling bad, Hey, you probably need to reach out to somebody, but it still never ceases to amaze me how much better I feel when I put myself out there and ask for somebody's help. And they're able to give it to me. I mean, the danger is for me, has always been.

2 (1h 38m 57s):
Sometimes they can't help you, but that doesn't mean it's, you're not worthy of the whole,

1 (1h 39m 3s):
Just for that. You don't mean you need to find someone else then, because, because you just go to the neck, like you, you can, I just, yeah, you, you, you just go, okay, that person not a good fit. I'm not going to, but I'm in so much pain and I need so much help that I'm willing to try someone else. You'll find someone that says something to you that is going to click with you eventually. And, and, you know, I remember, I mean, and it's just, I just don't want people to sit also in feeling misinformation in terms of like, when I started having panic attacks, this was even earlier when I, you know, at the chinos on my first panic attack ever was on epigenomes on Lincoln and Webster, right. Or somewhere around there.

1 (1h 39m 43s):
Yeah. Seinfeld was on. And I remember thinking, oh, I'm schizophrenia because I had no information about, so I walked around thinking I'm schizophrenia until I finally went to a doctor who said, no, you are, you have a panic disorder. And I was like, what is that? So, anyway, we need to know for me and all my struggles, too, what has survived helped me survive. Especially during the pandemic is get the data. And especially with my own health things, I'm like, get the data, get more information don't before you freak the F out, get some data. Everybody look at the data, helps have someone help you look at the data and then make a choice. That's what helps me survive. Because when I'm making choices from that place inside me, that is the really, really traumatized and neglected five-year-old.

1 (1h 40m 30s):
It is not a good, it never, it never works out well, like for me, you know, it's not like it even looks bad, it just feels really bad. So, yeah. Get the data is the other thing that's helped me survive. Like, what's the information here, by the

2 (1h 40m 44s):
Way, how's it going with your five-year-old

1 (1h 40m 46s):
Self? You know, it's going badly. I feel a little, so my five-year-old self I've sort of placed Doris. Oh, I love that. Yes, absolutely. When, because sometimes with my own self I'm like, oh my God, I can't believe I'm doing this. This is ridiculous. I'm talking to my five. This is crazy. Blah, blah, blah. So I put it into my little puppy and I'm like, oh my God, would I tell her like, shut up, get it together. You piece of, you know, and I'm like, I would never say that if someone was saying that to Doris, I would literally throw them over a bridge. So like, I, I put it into Georgetown. I'm just like, okay, I patience. So then I'm like, can I have patients for myself? This, you know, the dog is learning where to pee and poo, am I going to berate the dog or I'm going to try to teach the dog.

1 (1h 41m 33s):
So that's what I, and then I'm like, can I show that compassion for myself? Sometimes they can. Sometimes they can't, but it's better than then. Like, cause I had closed, like we were talking about, I had tried to close the door on that inner child. It doesn't work. It doesn't work. She comes out in every way.

3 (1h 41m 50s):
Yeah. She will not be denied. If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable in production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez and Gina plegia are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited and sound mixed by Gina Culichi for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our [e-mail]. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.

3 (1h 42m 32s):
Thank you.

What is I Survived Theatre School?

We went to theatre school. We survived it, but we didn't understand it. 20 years later, we're talking to our guests about their experience of going for this highly specialized type of college at the tender age of 18. Did it all go as planned? Are we still pursuing acting? Did we get cut from the program? Did we... become famous yet?