Rupert Isaacson: Thanks for joining us.
Welcome to Live Free, Ride Free.
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times bestselling author of
The Horseboy and The Long Ride Home.
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So now let's jump in.
Welcome back to Live Free.
Ride Free.
I've got Amanda Griffith Atkins, who is the author of How to
Handle More Than You Can Handle.
I know a lot of us listening to this will know exactly or
resonate exactly with that title.
I know I do.
Being the father of an autistic son overwhelm is well, overwhelms are us.
So it's good to be able to talk about it squarely because then it allows 'em
to think about what might we do how might we end the feelings of isolation.
Some people feel shame, some people feel all sorts of things, but I know that.
For me in the early years particularly, isolation was the thing, because if
you have the kid who's taking a their clothes off and pooping on the floor of
the supermarket at the checkout counter, you've sort of avoid going, you know,
and this, you know, begins to snowball.
And there's so many parents out there in this kind of position.
So this book that Amanda has written is, is a very valuable thing.
So Amanda, thank you for coming on the show.
Please tell us, you know, a bit about who you are and why did you write this book.
Amanda Atkins: Well, thanks for having me and.
I was listening to your audio book recently and could just resonate with
so much of what you said about the early years and, you know, you beautifully
articulated your anger and your rage and all the complicated feelings that it feels
like good parents aren't allowed to have.
And so, you know, from that sentiment is sort of where my book was birthed.
I was 26 when I had Asher Fresh out of grad school.
You know, in hindsight it felt, feels like I was a baby at the time.
You know, 26, it feels so young to have this really high needs child.
Had just graduated with my shiny new master's degree from Northwestern
University and really felt like, okay, like I'm on top of the world.
You know, I'm at, I'm ready to start my career.
I've done everything right, I've checked all the boxes and then
gave birth to a son with a one in 20,000 syndrome, pr, Willy Syndrome.
And this particular syndrome is all encompassing.
It's cognitive delays, physical delays, and if you were to Google it, the thing
that you'll read right off the bat is what's called insatiable hunger.
So meaning the part of his brain that doesn't re that registers hunger
hypothalamus doesn't work properly for him, or rather, I should say, the part
of his brain that registers fullness.
So Asher lives with a feeling of hunger all the time.
Throw in a healthy dose of OCD.
And some pretty intense rigidity and perseveration and you know, food really
kind of consumes our life, meaning that a lot of people with PWS, their
families lock up the refrigerator.
You know, things like dog food, toothpaste, anything remotely edible
can instantly become a threat.
And so, you know, imagine being held, being handed your, you know, baby and
told that this is the future, right?
And so really early on I felt so conflicted because I felt like
the expectation was that I should be the special needs warrior.
You know, I should wear the ribbon of PWS, I should go to the five Ks I should raise.
Money and just really early on it felt like I, I felt so resistant to
my identity being taken over by this.
Mm-hmm.
And
Rupert Isaacson: actually at 26, the irony,
Amanda Atkins: the irony now that here we are both talking about our,
you know, talking about what it means to parent child with a disability.
In some ways my identity has become consumed with it.
Yeah.
But I like to think it's in my own way.
So anyway, so early on I just felt such resistance to.
I felt that people really did not know how to respond when I said I was struggling,
when I said we've had a really hard day or we're any really hard stretch you
know, I'm really struggling emotionally.
People always felt the need to meet that with, oh, but you guys
are such a parents for Asher.
Or you know, kids are so resilient.
Or, you know, the phrase from the title of the book, God won't, oh God won't give
you more than you can handle anything religious, you know, is thrown onto it.
Of course.
And so I sort of felt like this is actually more than I can handle.
Like, you know, I feel like every part of my life is being touched by this,
my friendships, my marriage, my career, my decision to have more children.
All of it feels like it's just imploding under the pressure
of what, of this experience of parenting such a high need child.
And so, I felt like there needed to be space for parents and caregivers to talk
about how hard this is in a way that, that, that, you don't have to throw
the caveat, but I really love my child.
Right.
Because of course I love my child.
Like of course I love him exactly as he is.
But would I change it?
If I could, I might, you know?
Mm-hmm.
And I feel like there's, there's not a lot of room for us to say
that as parents, so that the book kind of came outta that place.
And I really felt the need to touch on our, our identity as parents, and
that we're allowed to have an identity that's more than just a caretaker.
Because I feel like a lot of parents really struggle to pursue anything other
than anything that involves their child.
And I just wanna, I want parents to know that like, number one, your life's
not over, but you have to work at it.
You have to work at it, you know?
Rupert Isaacson: Well, you are a, you're a family therapist, um mm-hmm.
And you've got a pretty I.
Burgeoning practice.
Were you, was that as a result of becoming a special needs mom or were you already
heading for that route before you, like, was that what you were gonna be anyway?
Amanda Atkins: Well, that's a good question because I think in some ways
my career is a constant, like urged to like overcompensate for the lost time.
Like, it almost feels like, you know, there was a moment where I
was like, oh, I'm never gonna work.
Like I'm gonna be a stay at home parent forever.
This isn't what, you know, I, I, I, I got this training, I'm really passionate
about being a therapist, but I was a stay at home mom for three years.
So not, not an incredibly long time, but long enough in the beginning to where it
felt like I'm really behind in my career.
And so I think once I was able to kind of get my feet under me, I really felt
like, wow, I really wanna run with this.
I really want to grow this practice.
So, I wouldn't say it was necessarily.
A result of having a child with a disability.
But it kind of, I realized I wanted to have career.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
But it wasn't where you were going after grad school before you had Asha.
Amanda Atkins: No, no, no, no.
Yeah, yeah.
What, so what, what
Rupert Isaacson: were you, what were you hoping to be?
What, what was, what did you come at?
What was your master
Amanda Atkins: degree?
Well, well, well, I was in grad school, aft I was, I, I was going to be a
therapist by the time Asher was born.
I knew I wanted to be a therapist, but I don't think that I ever saw myself in this
niche of, like, working with caregivers.
That's for sure.
You know, I've always had an interest in grief.
That's always been kind of my primary interest.
So why, why,
Rupert Isaacson: why is that been in your interest?
Amanda Atkins: I think there's something there about how this, something can
happen to you and it never goes away.
Like it changes you forever.
You know, grief is something that we're all gonna experience, whether,
like I'm talking about grief from like, the death of a loved one.
Mm-hmm.
It's something that's gonna happen to all of us.
So it's not unique to you or to me, but it's something that's so life changing.
Mm.
There's no way to like get out of it easily, I guess.
And that, that's always struck me because it's like none of us are immune to it.
And it's just something that's so profoundly impactful to all of us.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Yeah.
But when I was at university, I wasn't thinking about doing anything like that.
Why do you think as a young woman at late adolescent woman, why were you,
was there, was there a family story that
Amanda Atkins: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Yeah.
So what, what, what?
You're so interested in grief.
Yeah.
See,
Amanda Atkins: you could be a therapist.
Okay.
You're good at this.
Alright.
So when I was in high school, I.
My best friend though, there's a big group of us that were
all hanging out at the lake.
And my best friend at the time, her boyfriend, said he wasn't feeling well.
So he went into the bathroom and he ended up collapsing.
And we were 16 years old.
9 1 1 was called, bunch of my friends were trying to give CPR and
everything, and he ended up basically, he had an asthma attack and he died.
And it was this just insane experience of being like, oh my gosh,
someone's alive to someone's dead.
And, and I was her best friend.
And so I was in this position of like.
Caretaking for her listening to her.
I mean, I went home with her that night and I remember like put
putting pictures of him upside down.
She asked me to do it.
And so I just sort of like got put in this almost like therapist
role of caretaking mm-hmm.
For my best friend right after her boyfriend died.
And just kind of walking through that grief process with her
made me really not afraid of it.
I mean, mean not afraid of grieving people and feeling like I could sort
of walk into that experience of someone who had experienced this big loss.
Rupert Isaacson: Interesting.
Yeah.
How did she, I presume because she was quite young and they had not been
together very long, I should imagine that a certain point she did move on.
Amanda Atkins: Absolutely.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And you know why though, in that case did
you think it stayed with you?
What made you think Yeah, you know, I kind of want to pursue a career.
Amanda Atkins: I think I just felt so comfortable with it.
I, I noticed a lot of other people weren't quite sure the right thing to say to
her or maybe didn't bring it up at all.
And I never felt scared of the topic of talking about pain.
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
Amanda Atkins: I guess it felt very comfortable to me and I'd
never, I never was afraid of it.
Rupert Isaacson: Was that, talk to me about your own family
background, your parents.
Were they people who would talk very openly about this
sort of thing, for example?
Amanda Atkins: No, that's the irony of just me being a therapist is that I
come from a family that it uses humor.
It's all humor.
It's all crude humor, you know, like it's fun.
Oh, it fit right
in.
Yeah.
It's great.
It's a great, it's a such a fun family, but when it comes to vulnerability
or more tender or raw emotions, there's no expression of it at all.
And so I, I, I almost feel like, I don't know, it almost felt.
I was so needed an outlet to face hard feelings and discomfort that I like maybe
looked for in other, or, or I don't know if I looked for it in other people, but
it, I wanted to give a voice to it because it was something in my family of origin
that was never like freely talked about.
I,
Rupert Isaacson: and was it something that needed to be talked about?
Like there were all these elephants in the room, or Not even with not,
Amanda Atkins: it was just more subtle than that.
That's like my family is, it's the kind, even like in writing a book, right?
Like my pa my parents, they're still married you know, in their seventies.
They listened to the audiobook and they were like, what?
We're really proud of you.
I was like, that's probably the first time I've ever heard we're proud of you.
Or That's great, because
Rupert Isaacson: I've never heard it from my
Amanda Atkins: parents.
Yeah.
Well it took, yeah.
And you've written a book too.
Come on.
What more can we do that's not fair.
Yeah, so I mean, it, that's, that's it.
There's no, you know, there's no.
Every now and again, they'll say, how many copies?
My mom said, how many copies have you sold?
I told her and she said, that's it.
Rupert Isaacson: My answer to that is always both of them.
Amanda Atkins: Okay, good.
Okay.
I'm gonna use that from now on.
I'm gonna use that.
So, you know, it's just, I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't exactly know.
My, my mom's mom had a disability, she had a limb difference, Uhhuh, and
so I sort of have the, and that was like in the fifties, and so, okay.
I have this, she only, so she only had one arm.
Ah, and I, I, I contribute some of my mom's discomfort about talking about
hard things as I wonder if her mom really modeled, like, we don't talk
about differences, you know, just.
Get back on the horse, buck up, like, you know,
Rupert Isaacson: that would seem likely from that generation, right?
Yeah.
In the
Amanda Atkins: fifties, it's like, yeah, I have a difference.
Yes, I could wallow in it, but I'm not going to, we just gotta keep going.
So I think that's probably messaging that was passed down through the years.
You know, my dad was in the Vietnam War, his family was really poor.
Lots of, you know, it's, it's just like lots of messaging around like, what,
what does it really mean to suffer?
What, what is worth talking about?
And suffering.
Like surely feelings suffering and your feelings, it's like not that important
when it's like there's much other things.
Rupert Isaacson: It is interesting though that the generations that
came through the Depression in World War ii they had to simply cope.
Amanda Atkins: That's right.
Rupert Isaacson: In a way that I think is unimaginable for Yes.
Our generation.
And I would posit that that kind of.
Jocular Stoicism was probably the best tool.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Because when you're dealing with, I mean, obviously the
experience of World War ii, for example, for the Americans, was very different
to the Europeans in that it wasn't as, you know, it didn't impact civilians
except for the fact that their, you know, their, their boys were killed.
But the cities were not being destroyed.
Women were not being raped.
You know, Bayview were not being bayonetted like within America.
Mm-hmm.
That of course, all happened in, in, in Europe.
But
I do have a great respect, I think, for the place of that kind
of joo stoicism because I think it does also build resilience.
And I, you know, it's a, it's becoming so cliched at the moment, but I think
that, I don't think I observe that, the current, younger, young adult generation
is less resilient palpably than mine was.
And I'm half a, you know, I'm, I'm probably half a generation on from you.
So it seems that there's been a kind of diminishment of resilience.
So I have really mixed feelings about the let's talk it all out thing.
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Because I can see I'm absolutely can see both points of
view, so I end up doing both, you know?
Amanda Atkins: Yeah, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And as you say, you know, I wrote a couple of books about
my own experience and definitely put my own feelings in there.
And at the same time, there's an awful lot of toilet humor, you know?
Mm-hmm.
Because that's what gets you through.
Amanda Atkins: I agree.
Rupert Isaacson: You know, the, the toilet humor actually got us up the mountain.
You know, to the shaman in Siberia when nothing else.
Yeah.
You know, that's right.
Gods of humor.
That's right.
Toilet humor saved us.
And actually when we are, I'm doing trainings for our therapeutic approaches.
I actually school people in toilet humor for very specific reasons because
you know, a lot of the kids who we are dealing with are what I call therapy out.
You know, if you, if you are a, a child and you're being told every day for
your whole childhood, basically you need therapy, you are bas you're just getting
a message saying you're not Right.
Yeah.
And this erodes yourself respect.
And the only way you can reestablish your self-respect if you've lost it,
is some sort of act of rebellion.
Mm-hmm.
And of course, toilet humor is by its very nature and act of rebellion.
So the moment you start talking about poo.
You give a safe outlet for this person to rebel.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So there's a restoration of self-respect.
And then of course we're using it in the educational context so you can teach
all the natural sciences through poop.
Amanda Atkins: That's right.
You know, that's okay.
And I'll never resist
Rupert Isaacson: anything.
And, and it's funny, I mean, and if you pretend it's not funny, then
the child, particularly kids, will know that you're full of that thing
that you're saying is not funny.
Amanda Atkins: Uhhuh
Rupert Isaacson: So, so true.
It's God's free joke.
Stuff that comes out of your ass is funny.
It just is.
You know, there's, there's no way around it.
So, but at the same time, you know, you're absolutely right that
things, there is also a point at which things must be addressed.
And it, what one is looking for is, is that happy medium.
Yeah.
So in your book, you know, how, how are you treading and your approach
as a therapist, how are you treading the line of that happy medium?
Because Yeah.
It's tempting to go all out into a woe is me fest.
Yeah.
And there are sometimes when one needs to put a tear in your beer kind of thing.
Right.
Amanda Atkins: But
Rupert Isaacson: what, talk to us about how you help people find that
middle line if indeed you do, or you know, and if you don't, what do you do?
Amanda Atkins: Yeah, I think humor is a huge part of my work often,
you know, and I think that's it.
It is so helpful.
You know, you sit down with somebody who's maybe very nervous or they have a lot of
emotion, they're feeling really sad and.
Humor just instantly lightens the energy.
Yeah.
It just instantly puts them at ease.
It's medicine and shows them it is, and shows them that I'm a real person.
Mm.
You know, like I, you know, I'm not judging them or we have to
find light in these situations.
Right.
Even on the hardest day, don't laugh, you'll
Rupert Isaacson: cry.
Love in it.
That's the Exactly.
Yeah.
Amanda Atkins: I, and I always know I'm really in trouble when I
sit down with a client that I feel like can't access humor when I feel
like they're totally stuck Yeah.
In the sadness.
And that does happen once in a while, and I feel very outta my element.
That's when I'm like, okay, we gotta think bigger picture here.
Like, you know,
Rupert Isaacson: do you automatically start making poo jokes?
Amanda Atkins: I, I, something, anything.
Yeah.
I just, and if, if they don't take the bait, I'm just
like, oh no, I'm in trouble.
What am I gonna do here?
But, you know.
Yeah.
Because usually you just feel a lightness when you make a joke and somebody.
You know, whether it's a little self-deprecating or
whatever it is, it, it just
Rupert Isaacson: helps.
Well, it's also bonding, right?
You know, it, it bonding.
Exactly.
It's the common humanity thing.
Amanda Atkins: That's right.
Rupert Isaacson: That's right.
Let's, let's go through this together.
Yeah.
I just wanna ask you a couple of questions about Asha.
That, so how's he doing now?
You told me he's 16.
Yeah.
I, I know various people with Pril, so I know that it can
Amanda Atkins: Oh,
Rupert Isaacson: I, I know that it can present quite differently.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
How's it presented with him
Amanda Atkins: overall?
He really is doing well.
He's you know, he's a happy kid.
He's in real, in good health for the most part.
He's active for, the biggest thing that we struggle with it is like, sort of like
obsessions and schedule and perseveration and like, you know, that kind of thing.
So it's really difficult.
Like this past we were visiting, can you find
Rupert Isaacson: perseveration for those listeners?
Yeah.
So like,
Amanda Atkins: yep.
So basically like.
Focusing on the same thing over and over and over.
Yeah.
So for him it's always into the loop.
Yeah,
exactly.
It's like schedule or like, you know, there's certain
podcasts he likes to listen to.
Like, the new podcast come out today, I have to listen to it right now.
Or, you know, like just things that are like part of his routine
and if there's any deviation from it, we're kind of in trouble.
So it's really hard for our family to be flexible.
Vacations are really hard.
We do it, but it's, it is, everything's loaded and difficult, so, yeah.
But on the whole, he really is doing quite well.
He, he can read, he can write, he's, you know, he is verbal.
He's just Asher.
Rupert Isaacson: How, how is he presenting when it comes to the eating disorder?
Amanda Atkins: Yeah, the food thing is tricky.
He definitely, the, one of the tricky things about Asher is he's.
He's tall and he's quite thin.
He's like five foot seven and he is like 115 pounds.
Okay, so people don't necess.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So he's very thin.
Thin.
So he's not presenting as obese at all?
Amanda Atkins: He's not, he's not.
And you know, we've known about his diagnosis and is that, and that
Rupert Isaacson: because you are controlling things quite tightly?
Yes,
Amanda Atkins: yes.
And since he, since the day we got his diagnosis, we've
had a tight control on it.
It's tricky because other people look at that and they
think, oh, like he, you know,
yeah,
he can eat whatever and, but the reason he is that size is because
we've worked hard to keep him that way.
So he will, he will sneak food.
He definitely will.
You know, if there's, if there's something that he wants, he,
he will try and sneak it.
He can eat a lot at one time.
So it's just like a constant.
Rupert Isaacson: What about the dangerous stuff though, like,
medications, toothpaste, you know, he really is good with that.
Amanda Atkins: The only thing that you kind of have to
watch him with is toothpaste.
He does like to eat, is, he likes to eat toothpaste if you don't watch him.
But other than that, he is.
Safe for the, yeah, it just gotta keep an eye on him kind of thing.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Why do you think, why do you think his eating has been more
manageable for you guys and for him?
Amanda Atkins: I have no idea, and I would never even begin to
assume it's anything I've done.
I really don't.
I think it's genetic.
I think there's like so much genetic, just stuff about PWS that we don't,
I even feel like, I've told my husband this before, like, I don't
even think hunger is the right word.
I think it's an obsession.
I don't, I think hunger is not the right category for what they feel.
I think it's perseveration obsession.
I could be wrong.
Mm-hmm.
You know, other PWS families might disagree, but with me it azure's not,
it's like Azure has a fixation on it, but he has a fixation on a lot of things.
Rupert Isaacson: Sense.
What are his fixations?
Yeah.
Amanda Atkins: Oh my gosh.
Like certain TV shows that he's obsessed with.
The bus, he loves riding the bus to school every morning.
Like what time times, what time is the bus coming?
What time is this?
Very schedule oriented.
Do I have speech therapy tomorrow night?
Yeah.
That kind of thing.
Rupert Isaacson: What I, that, that I, sure I get, but I'm,
I'm going more for what, what's, what is passionate interests?
What are the things that, oh, passionate
Amanda Atkins: interests.
He loves Zoom calls.
Like, you know, he loves scheduling Zoom calls and doing them.
Honestly, that's probably his.
He has these two friends, Clara and Elle course.
They're like girls.
And he loves doing Zoom calls.
That's his favorite thing, to send them the link and then have them get on it.
And then just, and
Rupert Isaacson: are they, are they special needs as well
or are they No, they're not.
Amanda Atkins: They're neurotypical.
Rupert Isaacson: And then will he talk once he's on the call with them,
will he talk over and over about the same thing, or is it actually pretty
much a back and forth conversation?
Will he ask about them or is he talking about himself?
Amanda Atkins: I'm really trying to get him every time we do a Zoom
saying, Hey, let's come up with three questions we can ask ahead of time.
Because it's otherwise, it's really is just kind of one way.
And I like the, like social, like butterfly in me just
wants to be like, do it.
But then I'm trying to be like, he loves it.
Let him do his thing.
It's okay.
You know?
Rupert Isaacson: And when he's talking to these girls about himself Yeah.
What, what is he relating, what's he talking about?
Amanda Atkins: He's saying like, have you ever seen the show Big Bang Theory
Rupert Isaacson: Y?
No, but I have seen Young Sheldon, so,
Amanda Atkins: oh, it's Young Sheldon.
That's the show I'm talking about.
Oh my gosh.
Asher is, I was gonna say it's the spinoff.
Most people don't know young Sheldon.
Yeah.
Asher is obsessed with young Sheldon.
It's like, okay,
Rupert Isaacson: well that's kind of a good thing to be obsessed by.
Yeah,
Amanda Atkins: it is.
Exactly.
Yeah, exactly.
So he watches it, well, it's over now, but he watched it, you know, and he
watches reruns and now he watches the George and Mandy the like spinoff of it.
There's like another spinoff of young Sheldon that he watches.
And so he, one of his friends has also started watching the show.
So that's what they talk about.
Rupert Isaacson: Who were George and Mandy on?
Young Sheldon George
Amanda Atkins: and Mandy is, it's Sheldon's brother.
Okay.
The,
Rupert Isaacson: the rocket brother and the girlfriend Mandy.
Okay.
Ah, okay.
Yeah.
Alright.
Who's now
Amanda Atkins: a spinoff?
Rupert Isaacson: You know, I could see that though.
'cause we went through, like as a family this summer, a whole
like two months of watching Young Sheldon and I was watching it with
my two younger kids and they, yeah.
They were learning so much about American life through that show.
Amanda Atkins: Oh really?
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
So I, you know, oh.
'cause
Amanda Atkins: it's like, yeah, that shows to me that,
Rupert Isaacson: that Asha has quite good discernment.
Yeah, because it's a very philosophical show.
Yes.
Does he get that he sort of is young children?
Amanda Atkins: I don't know.
That's what I've always wondered.
I'm like, is that why he's drawn to it?
Because Sheldon, you know, I don't know.
He
Rupert Isaacson: doesn't, he doesn't articulate that.
Amanda Atkins: He doesn't seem to articulate it, but
I do wonder that as well.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And then how did he make these two friends, these two girlfriends,
Amanda Atkins: they're friends from grade school and they've just you know,
there was like a, like a Best Buddies program, so like where the regular
ed kids were connected with the kids in special ed and they just connected
through that and he stayed in touch.
They go to different schools now, but they, they've all stayed in
touch and they just really sweet.
Yeah, they're super sweet girls.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Awesome.
Rupert Isaacson: That's unusual.
Yeah.
'cause my son, when he went off to high school, you know, we, we homeschooled for
about 10 years and then he went off for his last two, three years into high school
and there was a Best Buddies program.
But I wouldn't say that the people who were in that really, I mean,
how could they follow through?
They were young as well.
Right, right.
You would said he wouldn't put any judgements on that, but I'm
impressed that these, yeah, so he must have a lot of charm.
Amanda Atkins: He really does have a lot of charm.
And he's very, he's funny.
He's super funny.
He has a great sense of humor.
He's a funny, can you gimme an
Rupert Isaacson: example?
Amanda Atkins: Oh my gosh.
It's all gonna be so embarrassing to me because it's all directed towards me.
But like yesterday we were, we were out somewhere and he saw, and we were with a
big group of people and he saw Chipotle, you know the restaurant Chipotle?
Yeah.
And he looks at me and we're with this big group pee.
And he goes, mom, whenever you eat Chipotle, you fart in front of this big.
And then he's laughing and pointing at me, and I'm just like, Asher,
can you, like, we're in p Can you, you know, like he just knows how to
like, make fun of me and loves like, kind of like the, you know, like,
yeah, mom makes you fart, doesn't it?
Like, it's just like, oh, why did I ever tell you that?
Rupert Isaacson: But that means that the autistic side of his Prada vili,
because again, for those listeners and viewers who don't know Prada
Vili, it comes with cognitive yep.
Let's say deficits as well.
But these are on a huge spectrum.
Amanda Atkins: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: And, but if he is making those jokes at your expense, that shows
that he has a sense of perspective, theory of mind and irony, which is
putting him like way on the upper scale.
That's
Amanda Atkins: right.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
Amanda Atkins: that's such a good point.
If you
Rupert Isaacson: get, if a kid, if somebody teases you, it means that they
have gone through that crucial milestone of theory of mind and false belief.
And again, for listeners who don't know that what that is is this is, and this
is a bit of a holy grail if you're sort of an autism parent that in neurotypical
kids, somewhere around two and a half to three, let's say your kid is loves horses
and is looking at a magazine with a horse picture and it goes, look, mommy a horsey.
And they hold it up, but they're looking at it.
They sort of think you can see what they see even though they can't.
And then somewhere around two and a half to three.
The brain will go through this development called theory of Mind and
false Belief where they'll turn it around and go, look, mommy a horsey.
They know that you see something different to what they see.
And we, in the work that we do with Horse Boy Method and Movement Method, have all
these methods for kind of kick starting theory of mind because we've realized that
if you can help someone who is challenged with that, through that milestone, then
the neuroplasticity really opens up and their brain kind of starts to kind of
get more and more neurotypical esque.
And it sounds like you are, even if they've had quite a, quite a severe
start, nonverbal, all of that.
So it, it sounds like Asher's really gone through that.
Was there a time when he didn't have that, do you think?
Can you discern when that shift happened?
Amanda Atkins: It feels like, you know, it took him a long time to be.
He has, he also has apraxia of speech, so there's a lot of like
speech stuff going on with him.
And.
I think some of it was when he was able to actually art, like the difference of when
he could articulate words versus when he couldn't, you know, I feel like he wasn't
really able to talk to where we could understand him until maybe five or six.
And then probably like 7, 8, 9, he started to be able to put
together a few more complex ideas.
He's always been a funny kid that, that, that likes humor and likes teasing.
I would say even before he wa he was very playful and liked
to tease and that kind of thing.
And probably 'cause it's a lot of, you know, our energy in the house.
We ha we have a very silly, funny household.
But I feel like maybe when, let's say when he was probably nine or 10, I would
say maybe he was able to start like making more like directed kind of like
jokes and teasing and that kind of thing.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm thinking about the proud of Willie Kidd that I know best.
Amanda Atkins: Mm.
He
Rupert Isaacson: is a, a, a child in Germany actually.
And I met him when he was four.
And he had the, he had quite a severely autistic presentation,
like Asher, he wasn't fat.
He
Amanda Atkins: yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: he was quite skinny kid, productive, two tall, skinny parents.
However, they also, like you were saying, manage it very, very carefully.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And it's very tough in, in Germany 'cause Germany's
a, a very sugar friendly culture.
Amanda Atkins: Oh, interesting.
Yeah.
And
Rupert Isaacson: baked goods and that sort of, and it's a way that
people show love and affection.
It's by giving.
That's right.
So it's, it's very tough.
And he's had a very tough time in school and so on, but I was
doing equine therapy with him and he was heading for hospital to.
Have his hips opened up.
Mm-hmm.
He had, yeah.
Again, for those listeners that are unfamiliar, there can be all these
physical things that go with Prada as well, including sort of very
tight mouthful, hips, et cetera.
And he threw all the time on the horse didn't need the surgery.
And the doctor's like, what, what are you guys doing?
Something's you've done something.
And they said, well, we've been doing this horse thing.
And well, it, it worked for him.
And because he could then hang out at the barn, there were other kids and
he went from being a very isolated kid to a somewhat socialized kid.
And now the last time I met him, I was like, wow, you are, wow.
You're actually really doing quite well.
And he was starting to do that.
He's, he's, he's about 10 now.
11.
Okay.
Also starting to tease me a bit and
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: I was like, Ooh, this is a good sign.
Amanda Atkins: I love that.
So
Rupert Isaacson: would you say, you know, I, I've, I've, I've read.
Some of those parts of your book where you talk about the early overwhelm
because he was very premature.
Mm-hmm.
You know, he was in the ICU, you were disenfranchised as a mum because
Amanda Atkins: mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: You know, you couldn't care for your kid.
You didn't know if he was gonna make it.
Then he makes it, but now he's got this fucking thing and you realize
this thing is gonna put a boot through your forehead, you know?
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And your husband's forehead and everything else.
Do you still feel that sense, same sense of overwhelm?
Or are you through that, do you think?
Or do you think
Amanda Atkins: I think I through it.
I really do think I'm through it at this point.
I mean, it comes and goes, right?
Like there's different, I have different levels of fear, you know,
I think about the future, like what's the future gonna look like for him?
Yeah.
What's it gonna look like for our family?
But I do have a more of a sense of like, stability now than I used to.
Like I, I feel, and maybe it's because I'm rooted in my career and who I
am, you know, I'm not, I'm not in my twenties now, I'm in my forties now.
You know, it feels more, I feel more rooted as a person as well.
And have seen a little bit how life has shaken out a little bit.
You know, there's still lots of unknowns, but
Rupert Isaacson: What do you think will be his future long term?
Amanda Atkins: I do think after you are dead,
Rupert Isaacson: basically.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Yeah.
I think our, the plan is to, to have him in, in a residential home.
Maybe to start a residential home for some people with PWS.
Yeah.
I think that's sort of where, that would be the ideal.
There's enough people in the Chicago community with kids about Asher's age that
will need more, to be perfectly honest.
Rupert Isaacson: You're gonna have to do that.
Amanda Atkins: That's seems what it seems like.
Right.
Rupert Isaacson: And do you, do you feel a sense of relief that he now has siblings?
Amanda Atkins: I do, but also I'm so hyper aware of not putting
expectations that like I don't
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
But so worry about that.
If he didn't have 'em, he'd be Yes.
All by himself.
Yes.
And yes.
Amanda Atkins: Yes, yes.
Rupert Isaacson: De if he's got people who've got his back,
Amanda Atkins: yes.
De
Rupert Isaacson: This does make a huge difference, you know, I asked
these questions because these were the things that went through my mind
and when my son was, you know, right up until 13, he didn't have siblings.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And this kept me awake at night.
Amanda Atkins: So are his siblings full siblings?
Or half?
Rupert Isaacson: No, they're half siblings.
Did that
Amanda Atkins: bother you at all or did that feel any different way or No?
Rupert Isaacson: No.
No.
And in fact, in some ways it worked out beautifully because we
couldn't have coped his mom and I in those early years because his.
Anyway, we were later parents, so she wasn't gonna have another child.
Amanda Atkins: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: But it was so severe, it was so all encompassing that we couldn't
have, we just couldn't have done it.
Yeah.
So, then when he ended up with siblings at 13, there was this part
of me that went, oh, that's beautiful because he's had his childhood.
Amanda Atkins: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: You know, now he will have siblings who are
like half a generation younger.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
So when
Rupert Isaacson: he's 80, they'll be 65.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Right.
You know,
Rupert Isaacson: that's, that does give me a sense of Wow.
Yeah.
After I die there will be people who have the stamina.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah, that's right.
No,
Rupert Isaacson: I mean, he's very, very independent.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah, he
Rupert Isaacson: just sold his house last year and he got his own.
Oh,
Amanda Atkins: that's awesome.
Rupert Isaacson: He lives between Europe and America and he has three
jobs and he, you know, but he's still very, very vulnerable in many ways.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: He's someone that does rely upon community support.
But when I was also, you know, you said he'll probably go into group home
and then from there you went, we'll probably have to do the group home.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: I, I, I got, so what I often advise people on when I'm
consulting with people on special needs staff is saying you are either going to
be a service user or a service provider.
Amanda Atkins: Mm.
You're
Rupert Isaacson: either going to be a consumer of services
or you're going to mm-hmm.
Learn how to be the service.
Mm-hmm.
But you will be in that sphere.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So it's up to you which one is it going to be?
Amanda Atkins: That's right.
Rupert Isaacson: And for some people, they definitely would rather be a service user.
Amanda Atkins: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: Maybe it's 'cause I'm a control freak, but if there's a service,
I want to be the service, you know?
Yeah.
Amanda Atkins: Same.
Rupert Isaacson: So the, the, within this world of horse boy movement
method, there's many parents like me and like you who have done just that.
Yeah.
And we are a whole network and each of us does it rather differently because each
of our children was a different context.
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: But we all help each other and are part of an
organization that can source funding and that sort of, but this has all
happened organically over 15 years.
Of course, because Yeah,
Amanda Atkins: because they had to.
Right?
Because it had to.
Because they had to, to,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
So what are your plans?
What do you envisage this home, this community looking like and
what's gonna be your role and what's gonna be your husband's?
I haven't even asked you about your husband does, by the way.
What does he do and Yeah,
Amanda Atkins: he is an accountant, so, okay.
Money Sandy.
Which is great.
Yeah.
So can do,
Rupert Isaacson: you can
Amanda Atkins: do all the, the total opposite of that.
Yes.
Yeah.
I like to spend and I like feelings, so Yeah.
So it works
because you not like feeling Right.
Exactly.
It's a win-win.
I dunno, I think for me the biggest thing is just simply safety.
Safety and like friendship.
Like that's all I want him to have, you know, that's feel what feels
most important to me with him.
And so food safety of course feels important and I don't think you can find
that in your average residential home.
It's just such a unique thing to PWS that it feels like that would
have to be such a specialty of it.
But, you know, it's important to me that he gets outside.
It's important to me that he's moving his body, that he's around
other people that care for him.
Rupert Isaacson: Are you looking, are you looking at precedent?
Are you looking at examples of other places?
Amanda Atkins: Not yet.
Should I be?
I should be, huh?
Rupert Isaacson: Oh yeah.
You definitely
Amanda Atkins: should be.
Rupert Isaacson: But make it fun.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: I could point you to some.
Okay.
And actually, if anyone is listening, who's in this sort of position, one
of the first things which I would really encourage people to look
at other Camp Hill communities.
Amanda Atkins: Hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: So Camp Hill is one word, and they've been around for about
a hundred years, since the twenties.
But they're in, they're all over the world.
I think they're in 40 countries or more.
And they are Steiner inspired.
If people know who Rudolph Steiner was, people have heard of Waldo schools.
He was the guy that came up with Waldo schools.
He was also the guy that came up with a, an early form of organic
farming which is big in Germany.
He came up with many cool things, but he's mostly known for the Waldorf schools.
But Camp Hill was sort of, inspired by his approach, but people with special
needs living in rural communities that are safe havens and have their own economy.
And when I was sort of looking at the early stages of Horse Boy and
knowing that some of these people who I was training were gonna end up
doing residential places, I often look to that as a sort of a good working
model that stood the test of time.
And my, that was gonna be my, my next question is, are you envisaging
something that is rural or urban?
Amanda Atkins: Well, you know, I live in such an urban area in Chicago,
so I do feel urban because I want it to be somewhat close to me.
Spots.
Rupert Isaacson: Well,
Amanda Atkins: if, if the listener could see your face.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Yeah.
Well they will.
'cause it's on YouTube too.
There you go.
So warn you put some clothes on right.
As you know, if you followed any of my work, I'm an autism dad and we have
a whole career before this podcast in helping people with neurodivergence,
either who are professionals in the field.
Are you a therapist?
Are you a caregiver?
Are you a parent?
Or are you somebody with neurodivergence?
When my son, Rowan, was diagnosed with autism in 2004,
I really didn't know what to do.
So I reached out for mentorship, and I found it through an amazing adult
autistic woman who's very famous, Dr.
Temple Grandin.
And she told me what to do.
And it's been working so amazingly for the last 20 years.
That not only is my son basically independent, but we've helped
countless, countless thousands of others reach the same goal.
Working in schools, working at home, working in therapy settings.
If you would like to learn this cutting edge, neuroscience backed
approach, it's called Movement Method.
You can learn it online, you can learn it very, very simply.
It's almost laughably simple.
The important thing is to begin.
Let yourself be mentored as I was by Dr.
Grandin and see what results can follow.
Go to this website, newtrailslearning.
com Sign up as a gold member.
Take the online movement method course.
It's in 40 countries.
Let us know how it goes for you.
We really want to know.
We really want to help people like me, people like you, out there
live their best life, to live free, ride free, see what happens.
Things tend to go better if they're in the country.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Because nature is the habitat that the human
organism is supposed to be in.
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: So when you have a human organism that is impacted and
requires easily, easily thrown off the
Amanda Atkins: mm-hmm.
Off
Rupert Isaacson: kilter, the fewer bad sensory triggers you can have, the better.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
And
Rupert Isaacson: then of course there's vulnerability.
You know, cities are dangerous places on human terms.
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And, so I definitely favor the rural.
And then the other thing is, of course you have cross species stuff as well, so
Amanda Atkins: mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: People are always happier actually when they're surrounded
by animals and plants because mm-hmm.
That is again, what our species are supposed to do right.
And as you know, sort of cities are somewhat adult playgrounds, um mm-hmm.
But they're redesigned for neurotypical a adults with careers.
Amanda Atkins: True.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: But, you know, for kids or for people with special
needs or whatever, you know, they, they often don't go so well.
But that doesn't mean that you necessarily have to live in that community, but
you might be its director, you know.
Amanda Atkins: Right, right, right, right.
Rupert Isaacson: And it's, you know, the reason listeners why we met is through our
mutual friendly Leanna Tank who's been on the show's, who's one of my great heroes.
Mm-hmm.
And Leanna works in the group homes of.
Michigan with a criminally insane population, you know?
Yeah.
And really knows how the nervous system in the brain really work together.
And what sort of, what works and what doesn't.
But, you know, I know we strayed a bit from your book, but the, this
type of conversation for any parent who's got special needs, these are
the conversations one has to have.
Amanda Atkins: That's right.
Rupert Isaacson: And when I feel that we are dealing with how do
we handle more than we can handle it's by coming up with solutions.
That's right.
You know, there, there is this kind of thing within therapy of saying,
well, don't go into fix it mode.
You know, just.
Tell me, you know, how hard it's, but I can't do that.
My That's right.
Genetic is about fixing.
And I, I've been in that situation.
People say, well just sit with your feelings for a while.
I'm like, no, I'm gonna go out there.
And, and that is how I sit with my feelings, please.
Well, and maybe, yeah.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
And maybe, maybe you take action first and then you can reflect on your feelings.
Yeah, exactly.
That is probably more the reflection there somewhere.
Yeah.
But the action has to be there too.
We have to, right.
Rupert Isaacson: And I feel if I don't start with action, then I am
much more vulnerable to despair.
Amanda Atkins: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: But I do know that not everyone is like me.
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Do you, I dunno if you ever saw that.
There was a really funny skit came out about 10 or 15 years ago, and
it's a boyfriend and a girlfriend and.
She's saying, I've got these headaches, and she's got this nail
sticking out of the front of her head.
And her boyfriend says, well, you've got a nail.
Don't, don't try to fix it.
Don't try to just, you know, I just need you to be with me.
I just need, and he's like, completely confused.
And then he gets it.
He says, oh, that must be very hard.
And she goes, and she goes, yes, thank you.
Yes it is.
And then she turns ahead because she bangs the nail on the thing goes, ow, ow.
He goes, well, I could just say no.
Stop trying to fix it.
It's so good.
But you, how do you dance that dance?
Because, you know, you, you are, there's, you personally.
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
You
Rupert Isaacson: writing that book to some degree is taking action.
You becoming a therapist was taking action, right?
Amanda Atkins: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Talk, just talk to me about your relationship with.
Action versus sitting with feelings.
And how, how, how's that played out for you and and how's it
played out for your husband?
Amanda Atkins: Yeah, I, I mean, I'm, I'm a very action oriented person.
You're right.
Like writing the book came from a place of being like, I feel
like I have to do something.
And everybody has like a different degree of how comfortable they feel.
Expressing emotion.
Acknowledging emotion, you know, like how you even started off
our talk today, like asking about almost like my, my family of origin.
Like, you know, what is, how were you taught to feel feelings?
Were you taught to feel feelings?
Mm-hmm.
You know, were you taught that certain feelings were safe and acceptable
and certain feelings weren't?
And you know, I think that's the starting point for me.
You know, you said you start with action.
I tend to start with feelings first, understand what I'm feeling.
And it, for me, an emotion is almost like a.
It's almost like a sixth sense to me.
Like an emotion helps inform me on what action I need to take.
Not everybody's wired that way, but for me, if I'm feeling anger about something,
that's generally a sign that something feels unjust or that I feel wronged.
And so that usually means I need to do something to whether I need to
talk to somebody or do something.
Or maybe I just need to chill and, you know, process it a little bit.
But oftentimes my emotions are like leaders for me.
Maybe that's a, maybe that's not such a good thing, but, but it is.
And I try to have sound mind when I'm making decisions about things, but I'm
definitely an action oriented person, but I tend to, my feelings tend to lead
me or at least be more of a sixth sense to tell me what action I need to take.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
And I, I would say that's fair.
To be honest.
I'd, I'd say that that is me too.
Amanda Atkins: Hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: But it's,
it.
I, I feel that once I've identified them, I want to, I want to do,
because that in itself is therapeutic.
Definitely is healing.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
That makes sense.
That I definitely, I feel the same way.
And sometimes doing just means going for a walk, going for a run.
Yeah.
Like sometimes doing doesn't mean, you know, action, like advocacy, doing.
So sometimes it's just like, what do I need in, in the realm
of like, whether it's self care, just simply like living, you know?
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
It's interesting.
Yeah.
I mean, you know, I, I asked about your son's passionate interests.
I feel that when you're a special needs parent, you
really need to look at your own.
Yes.
'cause they will get you through.
Obviously I like horses.
So mm-hmm.
If you put me around ponies, I tend to not dwell on myself and just get rid of pony.
That is therapeutic.
Everyone hopefully has their thing.
But to prioritize that thing, I feel is of paramount importance when you are
Amanda Atkins: mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Being called upon to find resources
Amanda Atkins: mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Greater than the norm.
Mm-hmm.
Amanda Atkins: Because
Rupert Isaacson: some, you've got to draw on those resources from somewhere.
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
What is,
Rupert Isaacson: what is putting those resources into you?
What puts the resources into you as, as a mom?
What, what are your passionate interests?
Amanda Atkins: Well, I also love horses.
Not as much, not I, not as, I'm not as involved as you are, but
I do, you know, if I can ever
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, cool.
Amanda Atkins: I do love a horse with people.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Amanda Atkins: Yes.
Whenever I, whenever I, you know, living in the city, I have to drive
a little bit to be around a horse.
So
Rupert Isaacson: this is a no brainer, you're saying, well, I want to do
a, a, a, a group home for my child in the city, yet I love horses.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Dot, dot.
I know.
Amanda Atkins: I know.
I know.
It's like, okay, so,
Rupert Isaacson: so do you, do you make sure that you get out to spend
time with horses as much as you can?
Amanda Atkins: Yes, I do as much as I can.
And, you know, some, I'm having a hard day some days and I'm like,
I just need to kiss a horse.
So, you know, do what I can that weekend to make it happen.
I love exercising.
I love moving my body.
I just recently bought like a, it's not a Vespa, but like a Vespa, a little
scooter that I like to scoot around town, and that's been super fun for me.
Yeah.
You know, being with friends, listening to music, writing, there's lots and
lots of things that bring me joy.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, that was the, that was the word I was about to ask.
It's joy and
Amanda Atkins: Yeah, exactly.
Rupert Isaacson: It, this is the most important, the most important thing.
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And
Rupert Isaacson: of course, when you are in that early stage, I know you
write about this in your book of how you deal with the grief, the grief of.
The death of those dreams.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And also the absolute terror of what is to come.
Yeah.
You know, how am I going to meet the challenge of this, you know?
Mm-hmm.
Because I just, I know what an idiot I am, you know, like mm-hmm.
I'm not built for this.
I'm not strong enough for this.
I'm not, you know, how on earth am I gonna do Yeah.
That, you know, and of course then you end up doing it, you know?
But joy
is,
if one isn't living a joyful life, then one isn't really living.
And it doesn't mean that every moment can necessarily be joyful.
Amanda Atkins: That's right.
But if that,
Rupert Isaacson: but if that is the,
if that's where one's focuses and one places a really high value on it, then one
is going to experience more of it than if one didn't, and it's gonna pull through.
Yeah.
When you have your.
Clients coming in and they are in that
Amanda Atkins: mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Grief, funk, terror mode.
How do you help to orient them back to joy?
Amanda Atkins: It's such a good question.
I think it's, I think that's like the most important question, honestly.
And you would be shocked at how many people I meet with and I say
exactly what you just asked me.
You know, what brings you joy?
Where do you find meaning?
And they cannot come up with an answer.
You know, they might be able to tell me what used to bring them
joy or things that they like doing.
But then when I say, well, when's the last time you did that?
You know, years.
You know, when's the last time that you.
You know, something simple.
Oh, I love going for a walk with my dog.
Okay, well, how often do you do that?
Well, I don't know if I really don't have time to do it between this and that.
And I do understand that, you know, like we, time is, it's hard to find
time for things when parents are busy, but I do firmly believe that we make
time for what we want to make time for.
And so I, I encourage parents to put it in your schedule.
You know, it takes some of the sexiness out of it when Yeah.
You have to,
sure.
You know.
Put it in your calendar, but who cares?
Like if, if you look at my weekly calendar, it's like workout the,
you know, horses on a Saturday.
It's all in the schedule.
Yes, it's not spontaneous and it's not sexy, but it's in
there and I'm making it happen.
And you know, I think really helping parents determine what
is it that brings them joy?
What are they passionate about?
I always ask parents, where do you find your meaning in life?
I mean, it sounds like such a big question, but I think it's an important
question to be able to have an answer to.
And also, how has this parenting journey changed you?
Because I think part of where we find meaning is identifying how has
this shaped me without judgment.
Like, it's not, it's not, oh, it's made me, it's made me
into a, you know, this bad way.
Let's shift that to say, okay, it's made me more, yes, maybe it's it.
A lot of parents will say, I've become more anxious.
I become more anxious by this parenting journey.
'cause I've realized all these bad things can happen.
So, you know, I would wanna work with a parent on like,
well, what, what does that mean?
Like, what?
What do you mean to feel more?
Yes.
You feel worried about things.
Is there another way to look at that?
You feel more aware of suffering.
You feel that you can now, you know, you're now more attuned
to the suffering in the world.
Yes.
That's a sad thing, but can we look at that and also look at that
in a way that's actually helpful for humanity, helpful for people?
Right?
You, you notice differences.
Now you're more attuned to people that are different from you.
Like, isn't that a win in the grand scheme of things, you know?
So when I'm working with a parent around this, I like to help.
Identify what is it that causes them joy, which is oftentimes,
like I said, you would think that that would be an easy answer.
But oftentimes, particularly for moms, I find that that is not something
that people can easily answer.
And number two, where are you finding meaning in your life and what,
what brings you meaning in life?
Those are the two questions that I always want people to be able to Do you
Rupert Isaacson: find that they can tell you what did used to bring them joy?
Or do some of them actually say, you know, I've never really had anything.
Amanda Atkins: People can usually tell me what used to bring them joy.
Oh.
I used to like going out with my friends.
I used to like listening to music, but they feel so disconnected
from that version of themselves.
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Now you are lucky in one big regard.
You have a successful marriage, at least so far.
Yes.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: What you and I both know is that at least 80% of special
needs marriages don't make the cut.
Amanda Atkins: Now
Rupert Isaacson: 50% of marriages don't make the cuts, so That's right.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: But nonetheless there's an awful lot of single parents out there.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And when that hits, then the overwhelm goes
into just a whole other sphere.
Yep.
And yeah, quite likely there may not be time for much.
That's right.
When you've got someone in that position, of course the need for
the choice is even more acute.
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Because the potential for burnout is so much higher.
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Do what are the tools that you help people with,
particularly in that situation?
Yeah.
Amanda Atkins: I think a big part of that is, is intentionally developing community.
You know, so it's, it's not, yes, you're a single parent and.
The demands are huge, right?
But that there is somebody may maybe co-parent is, is
totally out of the picture.
You know, maybe you have a horrible relationship with co-parent and
you're not even willing to go to an IEP meeting with them.
I don't know what the situation is, you know?
But
yeah.
Where can you find community that, that you can find people that you
can, you know, go eat dinner with on a Sunday with their family, that they do
understand your child, that you feel seen.
This is not easy, you know, for a million reasons nowadays, but I do think it's
something that we have to intentionally be seeking and, you know, a modern, certainly
modern American culture is not structured, you know, with community in mind.
We're very isolated.
Yeah.
And it's a huge problem.
And so.
If you're not, especially like if you're non-religious.
Right?
Because I think religious people can find it within their, that's, that's I
think, can be a strength of people who are religious is that they can go to their
church or their synagogue or whatever and perhaps find like significant community.
But in the absence of that, like, yeah, where do we go to find community?
It is hard.
It's really hard, especially in a city of, I mean, in America, period.
You know?
Rupert Isaacson: So again, yeah.
What, what are the tools?
For example, yeah, I could, I could, 'cause I, I deal with this as well.
I, I could tell you some of the tools that I give.
Yeah.
Because the, the, the obstacles that you just brought our
attention to are very real.
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: It's one thing to say you need community, it's
a whole other thing to find it.
Mm-hmm.
So how do people help people to find it?
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
I think that's where it comes.
There's like a bravery in that.
Mm-hmm.
You know,
talk, like talking, talking to another mom at school pickup, inviting a mom
and her kid over for dinner some night.
Like, there's a lot of bravery and that's required and planning.
So if I was sitting with a parent, I might say, okay, let's go through what
your schedule looks like and let's identify a few people that maybe you
could start to build relationships with.
Okay.
What does communication look like with them?
How do you initiate, what fears come up around that?
Like it's, you know, do you feel nervous that they're not gonna
want, you know, that kind of thing.
Mm.
So really just like talking through how do we build relationships
in a way that's, those are,
Rupert Isaacson: those are very solid tools actually.
That's, that's to, to, to say are there actually people that you can identify?
Amanda Atkins: That's right.
Rupert Isaacson: They're another mom who you feel that there could be a vibe with.
Yeah.
Do you, do you see people becoming successful with this?
On the home.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah, I do.
It's, it's so loaded because it's, there's so many things that go into this.
It's like, I can give you skills, like, how do we initiate
hanging out with somebody?
You know, who do you entrust to take care of your kids so
that you can get time away?
Mm-hmm.
But,
you know, it's, there's personality comes into a fact, like, you know, how
are there interpersonal relationships?
How are their skills?
There's only so much coaching I can do there.
You know, but I think helping people be brave enough to take the first step
and helping them identify what, on the big picture, what's your goals?
Okay.
You wanna have, let's say your goal is you wanna have another mom in the
community that you can, you can watch their kid for a little bit and they
can go do something and then they can watch your kid for a little bit.
And you can go do something and have some alone time or go to
class or whatever like that.
Okay, well let's think about, let's really break this down and, 'cause I
think people look at these situations and they feel so overwhelmed, oh,
nobody could ever watch my kid.
You know, or, but it's like, okay, let's step into reality and let's confront
this and look at it in a way and actually come up with some ideas where
maybe we can help solve this problem.
So it's not such a big overarching anxiety.
Rupert Isaacson: The majority of people that are reading your book and coming
to you as clients, I presume are moms.
Amanda Atkins: That's right.
Rupert Isaacson: What's the percentage of dads?
Amanda Atkins: Oh, I mean, I would say maybe 10% Dads.
There definitely are dads.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Amanda Atkins: The book is written in a really non-gendered
way, so a dad could read it.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Yeah, just we know it's gonna be 90% women reading it and a lot
of the dads who read it will be told to read it by their spouses.
Which is a good thing.
Yeah.
Do you get the single dad coming to you?
Amanda Atkins: I don't think I have ever had a single dad come to me.
Rupert Isaacson: It's so interesting, isn't it?
Yeah.
You know, I wonder where they go.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
That's a population that is on your mind.
Of course.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Because interestingly within the horse boy world, there's a number of people
who run really good programs, some of which are residential, and there's
some people that you should talk to.
One, a man called David Doyle in Ireland
Amanda Atkins: who
Rupert Isaacson: has started an an incredible.
Program, he uses our methods particularly movement method, but honestly,
even if he'd never run across us, he'd be doing a, a fantastic job.
Mm-hmm.
And he, he has this, this thing called step in, step down.
Step out.
So the residential homes are, they have a, they're in the
country and they have apartments.
They're fully supported.
Somebody would come in and spend a certain amount of time there, then transition to
going sometimes back home and sometimes there to then going fully back home.
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: To then if they need to, then cycle in again, cycling in again.
Amanda Atkins: Oh, that's cool.
Rupert Isaacson: And it's a really cool model because the
families are not broken up.
Everybody gets a break.
More
Amanda Atkins: of like a respite model, would you say?
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly, exactly.
Uhhuh.
Exactly.
But the respite being more than like a night, you know?
Yeah.
The respite being that's great.
You know, weeks if necessary.
Amanda Atkins: That's, that was great.
Rupert Isaacson: Whatever is right for that person and his daughter is,
you know, very severe, very acute.
He had to do something and he came up with this model, so he's one
of the people I know who's really built and now he's building them all
over Ireland and he's got the Irish government to pay for them and, and
Amanda Atkins: great,
Rupert Isaacson: you know, over 10 years he's gathered all the data to show how
it works and why it works and so on.
Amanda Atkins: Wow.
Rupert Isaacson: And there are these people out there who are present.
So interestingly within Horse Point, I know some real dads like this, there's
another man called Henrik Bergoff in Germany who's got a son who had
hydrocephalus and spina bifida and Wow.
Was sold to have bought the sun.
He and his wife Gitty run this incredible thing.
Yeah.
Now neither of them are single dads.
But we also have, of course, a lot of moms who've started programs as well.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: I'm just wondering, you know, the, the male population
is quite lost at the moment.
Yeah.
If you're a white male, you're just, you are automatically the bad guy.
And you, there are a lot out there who are facing this and quite a lot.
And what
Amanda Atkins: per,
Rupert Isaacson: go ahead.
Like,
Amanda Atkins: I, I think about like what still in the year 2025,
like what permission do men have to, to feel, you know, like,
Rupert Isaacson: none.
Amanda Atkins: Right.
That's all what, what I'm about.
There's talk about it.
Rupert Isaacson: There's talk about it.
So that's why,
Amanda Atkins: that's why nobody comes to me, probably, you know?
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Well because, because the thing is as a, as a, as a bloke.
You are supposed to be a sensitive bloke, but if you actually
show that vulnerability, there are no brownie points for it.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: In including, frankly from, from women.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: There is still a preference for the stoic male.
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: That is just the truth.
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: If, if it was different, I think we'd have noticed.
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: I'm not, I don't necessarily even
have a judgment over that.
I'm not sure that that's good or bad.
I think that might be just built into us a little bit.
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: But nonetheless if those men are suffering in that
particular way and are looking at decades of putting one foot in front of
the other to try and make it all work.
Yeah.
What's the.
What's the plan?
And I'd be interested because with, I'm talking to you as a
therapist, not just as an author.
Mm-hmm.
And as a special, you know, special needs parent.
A special needs parent is that something which, you know, once
you've written a book, you know this, then you need another book.
I wonder, you know, is that gonna be like your next book is where are the
dads and what are we doing for them?
A good
Amanda Atkins: question.
I mean, as of now, the next book is either gonna be about siblings mm-hmm.
Of kids with disabilities or all about marriage.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Well, let's talk about marriage.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So you, you, I think you are quite unusual in that
you've been together how long now?
Amanda Atkins: 20 years we've been married.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And you know, I'm sure it's all been roses, right?
But you are together and
okay, you must have a base compatibility.
This helps.
I'm sure a lot of people are coming into you as special needs parents
whose, whose marriage is a fracturing.
Yes.
And they're doing that on top of
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: You,
what are your strategies there?
Amanda Atkins: Oh, it's hard.
It's, this is,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
Amanda Atkins: Arguably the hardest.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Amanda Atkins: Because you have two individuals with completely
different life experiences coming in and grieving a situation and
approaching a situation differently.
And both of them are spinning, trying to do the best they can for their child.
And for themselves.
And often that leaves zero time for the relationship.
Yeah.
You know, zero time for intimacy or connection or, you know,
communication or fun playfulness.
It's just so serious, intense, even
Rupert Isaacson: sitting glass of wine together.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Amanda Atkins: Impossible.
And, and room for conflict too.
We sit down and now I'm talking about, well, I went to this
appointment and you didn't do that.
There's no playfulness and there's no connection like there used to be
because it's, everything is high stakes.
Everything is so high stakes.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: You know,
Amanda Atkins: That's the reality.
Well actually I
Rupert Isaacson: would posit that what is going on for most married couples
in the special needs thing is actually something similar to what's going on
for a lot of the special needs kids.
Because most of the special needs kids, it comes with not all but many.
It comes with a really high anxiety level.
High levels of cortisol.
Yeah.
Amanda Atkins: Yep.
Rupert Isaacson: If you made it this far into the podcast, then I'm
guessing you're somebody that, like me, loves to read books about not
just how people have achieved self actualization, but particularly
about the relationship with nature.
Spirituality, life, the universe, and everything.
And I'd like to draw your attention to my books.
If you would like to read the story of how we even arrived here, perhaps
you'd like to check out the two New York Times bestsellers, The Horseboy
and The Long Ride Home, and come on an adventure with us and see what engendered,
what started Live Free Ride Free.
And before we go back to the podcast, also check out The Healing
Land, which tells the story of.
My years spent in the Kalahari with the Sun, Bushmen, hunter gatherer people
there, and all that they taught me, and mentored me in, and all that I learned.
Come on that adventure with me.
My friend Joel Dunlap, another person you should get with who
runs Square Peg Foundation in California does they incredible work.
You know, square pegs and ran holes, everyone.
So in Square Peg Foundation, everybody fits right.
Amanda Atkins: I love that.
Rupert Isaacson: She's a bit of a genius.
And also a special needs mom.
We had our horse boy Tribe day.
We, we are big believers in tribe.
In Community.
Mm-hmm.
We're international, so, you know, it's 40 countries and people.
So we try to get together every couple of years.
And this year we got together in Ireland and she was a speaker and
she made this really good point.
She said, what you're dealing with, whether it's the kids or whether it's
the parents, is cortisol poisoning.
Amanda Atkins: Yep.
Rupert Isaacson: So for those listeners who don't really
know that neuroscience are.
The part of your brain that governs fight, flight, freeze, fear, anxiety is called
the amygdala, which means almond in old.
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
Because
Rupert Isaacson: it's shaped like an almond.
And if it detects a threat, imaginary or real, that it doesn't care, it will
tell your body to produce two things.
Adrenaline and cortisol.
And cortisol is like a pair of scissors that momentarily cuts the cord between
the, or the connection between the boiler room of the brain dealing with
all the blood flow and temperature and digestion and the front part of the brain.
The CEO wondering what's for lunch because you do not want to be wondering what's
for lunch when something wants to make you lunch you or make lunch out of you.
So you must act not think so it nature's very clever, it's kills brain cells.
It's a neurotoxin, so that's why stress makes you sick because it's.
Actually a neurotoxin.
And it sticks around in the body all the time.
And happiness feels fleeting.
'cause oxytocin, serotonin, they evaporate almost as soon as they're produced.
You have to keep producing them all the time mm-hmm.
To, to keep feeling happy, whereas cortisol sticks around.
So PTSD is basically cortisol scarring in the brain.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And luckily you can, you can deal with it with
oxytocin very quickly if you know how to produce oxytocin.
That's a whole other thing.
Mm-hmm.
Amanda Atkins: But,
Rupert Isaacson: There it is.
So you've got two people who are in this marriage who are kind of
drowning in a vat of cortisol.
Yeah, that's right.
And when you, when you've got cortisol going around you, you can't
reason because you can't think.
Mm-hmm.
So when you're having a knockdown drag out fight with your.
You know, significant other, that's not the best time to talk about your long-term
investment portfolios because Exactly.
They're just not gonna make a rational decision.
That's right.
Not available, you know?
Access denied for intellect.
Amanda Atkins: Yep.
Rupert Isaacson: So that's what these people are facing.
And then of course they go to war for these reasons.
How do you help 'em?
Amanda Atkins: Restoring safety is such a slow process, right?
Like bringing your nervous system back to baseline.
I think it starts with giving yourself permission to rest.
Mm-hmm.
You know, lowering the expectation.
Like this constant need for therapy, therapy, therapy, therapy.
Kid has seven therapies a week and you're going to see every
specialist and you're doing this.
It's like,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah,
Amanda Atkins: just be.
What does it feel like to just be for a minute?
You know, there's been times where I, even now we're in one therapy a week for Asher.
That's it.
There's been times where we've had four or five therapies a week, and I just
had to stop it eventually and be like, I cannot function at this level anymore.
You know?
And so it's counterintuitive because we feel like we need to be doing
24 7, but I really think lowering the cortisol is by doing less.
And just coming back to basics, like again, that question, what brings you joy?
Yeah.
You know, where can you cut?
Can you, do you really, is this therapy really something
that you have to do right now?
Or is, can you take a break from it?
You know, our kids are overscheduled and therefore we're overscheduled, and
so do you have to go do all this stuff?
Or can you find safety for a minute and, and let your nervous system
relax a little bit so that you can actually allow yourself to feel joy.
It sounds so simple, right?
But I mean, in reality, this is impossible stuff to do.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, it's not simple when you're.
Dealing with what you're just talking about because the exhausting, I
remember in the early days with Rowan before I became the therapy.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: We were, yes.
Constantly driving around spending money.
We,
Amanda Atkins: yes.
Didn't
Rupert Isaacson: have time we didn't have.
And it was incredibly stressful.
Where I was really lucky 'cause I'm a journalist, like, so
I will always ask questions.
So I knew that I didn't know anything about this condition that my son had.
So I thought, okay, I need a mentor who I believe in mentorship strongly,
you know, who is that mentor?
Like what qualities would that mentor need to have?
And I coach people with this.
So it was okay, that mentor needs to be an adult with autism
because anybody else will have opinions, but not lived experience.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
And
Rupert Isaacson: that autism can't just be like, you know,
high functioning quirkiness a la
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Young Sheldon.
It's to be like, they had to start where my son was nonverbal,
shitting their pants, self-harming tantrums, like all of that.
And they have to have somehow made it.
Who's that person?
And actually that person was really easy to identify.
That was Dr.
Temple Grandin.
Amanda Atkins: Ah, right, right, right.
Yeah.
So she she
Rupert Isaacson: started life exactly there.
She was rocking in a corner at three, wiping her poo on the walls.
Yeah.
They were gonna institutionalize her nonverbal.
So I just wrote her an email and said can I come talk to you?
Cool.
And she went, yeah.
So I just showed up and I sat in her office and said,
how does my son become you?
And she said, do three things, and I did 'em.
Mm-hmm.
And the most important one was follow the child.
Amanda Atkins: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: And that's why I asked about ASHA's passionate interests.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And that's why I asked about your passionate interests.
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Because I know from experience that if I follow
the passionate interests of my kid, everything else will fall into place.
Amanda Atkins: Right.
Rupert Isaacson: But if I try to put an adult agenda on it,
everything will get very complex.
Amanda Atkins: Yep.
Rupert Isaacson: But we are told we have to put the adult agenda on.
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: You know, that the child should comply to the adult agenda.
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And
Rupert Isaacson: that I think is, you know, we were all
brought up with that, weren't we?
Yeah.
So it's, it is a real, so I've, you know, when we're doing our trainings, for
example, that's the hardest skill to teach people is the follow the child piece.
Sounds so simple.
Like you said, fi find joy.
It sounds very simple, doesn't it?
But it's not because Right.
Our Judaic, you know, cultures are not about joy.
They're about suffering.
Amanda Atkins: Exactly.
Rupert Isaacson: Going to hell.
Paying your tithes.
Control, control, control.
Yeah.
Amanda Atkins: Yes.
Because what I love, yeah, I, what I love about the idea of following the
child is it gives the, it gives the child confidence, it gives the child.
A sense of self that they learn to follow.
Like, that's why it's so hard for so many of us as adults
to say, what brings you joy?
Because nobody's ever really asked us that question that cares about it.
Yes.
Right?
And so when we're putting our child in the position of being the leader and
we're saying, I'm gonna follow where you lead me, and I'm gonna be there to help
you and mentor you and shape you, it actually gives the child a sense of what
brings them joy and what they want to do.
And it's crazy.
Kids don't even have that.
They just wanna sit on a screen now because that's, that's what they're given.
They've lost that sense of adventure in some ways.
And so I think your method really helps them reconnect with a sense of adventure,
a sense of, you know, autonomy, adventure,
Rupert Isaacson: exploration, play.
Yes.
These play, you know what, what's that?
Yes.
What's people, what's the old adage?
They say you, you don't stop playing 'cause you get old.
You get old 'cause you stop playing.
Amanda Atkins: Yes, yes, yes.
Rupert Isaacson: If we're, if we parent.
Follow the child where the child doesn't allow us to stop playing.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
And it's so fun and connecting and you feel like, oh my
gosh, I actually like my kid.
Yeah.
My kid's funny.
I wanna spend time with them.
They're actually
Rupert Isaacson: good company.
Amanda Atkins: That's right.
I love that.
Interesting.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Doesn't mean sometimes you don't, you know, get
exhausted and frustrated again.
Of course.
Or
Amanda Atkins: you don't have, you have to discipline from time to time.
This is all real things of parenting, you know?
Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: But it's still No, I, I so agree.
That we're, what we're really presented with is an
antagonistic, an antagonism model.
Amanda Atkins: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
And also to tell the kid, don't be a kid again, I'm gonna
quote my friend Joel, be a
pen.
Be, be a Philadelphia lawyer, aged 45.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Right.
Rupert Isaacson: You know, and if you don't do that, we're gonna give you drugs
Amanda Atkins: to
Rupert Isaacson: make you that.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And then we'll all be miserable.
Amanda Atkins: One thing I'm curious about, do you feel like having your
first son have autism, do you feel like that helped you take a more relaxed
approach with your other children?
Rupert Isaacson: A hundred percent.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
A hundred
Rupert Isaacson: percent.
Yeah.
Me too.
There there's, there's a part of me, you know, I mean, they're not through
their childhood yet, so there's
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: To come.
But you know, there are some things which they do and
I'm like, yeah, I'll be fine.
Amanda Atkins: Totally.
It'll be like, I don't care.
It's okay.
It'll be
Rupert Isaacson: fine.
Yeah, I agree.
It's like
Amanda Atkins: just totally changes the perspective.
You're like, what matters.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Not
Amanda Atkins: that much.
Rupert Isaacson: It brings to some version of World War I, you know?
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
It's all fine.
But also the other thing which.
I, this is, again, it sounds cliche, but it it does, it is worth drawing one's
attention to childhood is very short.
Mm-hmm.
But it sets the tone for everything.
So the more one can put emphasis into making that as joyful as possible.
Well, a, the more joy you are gonna experience as the parent, but also
the more you're gonna set that person up with a habit of joy.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And you know, with Rowan being my old first son now
being 23 going on 24, be 24 in a couple of weeks, actually, Jesus.
How did that happen?
Is that allowed?
Let's talk to him about that.
Don't, don't discipline him.
Stop.
But
you know, he's now spent more of his life not as a child.
Amanda Atkins: Hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: He's still quite childlike in, in some
ways, but he, yeah, you, you've got this kind of 12 year thing.
It's not, it's not, you know, ass out of it.
Now I know, again, I'm sure he, I'm sure he's quite childlike
Amanda Atkins: right, but he's taller than me.
He's, you know, got body hair.
He looks like a man in a lot of ways, you know?
It's crazy.
Rupert Isaacson: What do you think is gonna be his future
in terms of relationships and what does he want with that?
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: With, do you know what he wants?
Does he express what he wants?
And what, what, what do you think?
His chances,
Amanda Atkins: I have no idea.
He doesn't really talk a lot about, you know, friendships or, I don't
know that he's ever talked about romantic relationships, you know, so he
Rupert Isaacson: puberty, so is he expressing sexuality?
Amanda Atkins: Not really, not not related to other people at all.
I mean, it doesn't really seem like it.
No.
He hasn't really said anything about ever wanting to go out on a date
or like an interest in anybody.
Yeah.
I mean, he hasn't expressed
Rupert Isaacson: any frustration.
Amanda Atkins: He has not, I cognitively, I don't know if he's
totally aware of like how other kids differ from him in that way.
I'm not sure.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
I mean, in, in some ways that's a real blessing.
He's sort of,
Amanda Atkins: yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: To some degree insulated.
Amanda Atkins: I felt that.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: But of course not every special needs child by any means is
Amanda Atkins: of course,
Rupert Isaacson: many people are coming, the moms are coming into
you and their boys and their girls
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Are beginning to express these needs.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: How do you help?
How do you help them navigate that?
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
There's a whole chapter in my book about puberty that discusses a lot of this and.
A lot of it, I think for parents kind of hinges on independence, right?
It's like our kids, depending on their cognition and their needs, they
might either want more independence than maybe they're able to have or.
There's just can be that struggle around independence and what that looks like.
And obviously as parents, first and foremost, we want our kids to be safe.
And you know, when you're thinking about things like dating, then it's like consent
and the ability to consent and sexuality and sex and all that is so scary.
And you know, how do we,
Rupert Isaacson: but it has to be addressed.
Amanda Atkins: It absolutely has to be addressed.
And there has to be room for it too.
Yes.
You know, like if your child is able to consent and is interested in romantic
relationships and you know, that is something that we have to be able to,
to allow that for their own development.
Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: sure.
It's a human rights.
A human need.
Exactly.
Amanda Atkins: Exactly.
And so I think a lot of what I talk about with parents is not so much like how, how
do they go about doing it, but how do they wrestle with their own emotions around it?
Because if you spent your whole life taking care of your child and suddenly
they wanna go out on a date with somebody and everyone's consenting
and able to do it, mom might feel like, no, I'm not letting them do it.
But she has to work through that.
Instead of, you know, controlling and keeping him close, she has to work through
her feelings of letting go and allow that, you know, so I think a lot of it
is like, what is the parent feeling?
So often it's like very hard to let go of this person that they've, they feel like
they have some sense of ownership over.
'cause at the end of the day, we don't.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, but also a sense of responsibility
to keep safe too, as you say.
Absolutely.
And absolutely.
You
Amanda Atkins: know,
Rupert Isaacson: Treading that line, it's so hard to
Amanda Atkins: Yes, yes.
It's like,
Rupert Isaacson: you know, the mother duck pushing the
Amanda Atkins: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Duckling out onto the, of course, no longer a duckling, you
know, right out water, but knowing that there's alligators swimming arounds,
but they don't go out on the water.
They can't be a duck.
They, it's, this is where I feel tribe and community is so
important because if there is
more known.
Familiarity between the people in the group, then there is also accountability.
Amanda Atkins: That's exactly right.
So Asher recently wanted to go to the homecoming dance.
He's never done anything like this before.
You know, he doesn't have his driver's license, that kind of thing.
But l one of the girls I mentioned earlier that does the, the.
Zoom sessions with him.
He said that he wanted to ask Elle to go to homecoming.
So we texted her, she said, yes, of course.
And I'm thinking about that idea of community because the restaurant that
they wanted to go out to, there was a two hour wait in order to get in.
They didn't have reservations or whatever, but he vent to that restaurant enough.
It's just our corner little bar and grill that they let the kids skip the weight and
go in and, you know, and just knowing that like, okay, the servers there know him.
Our community knows him.
Even in Chicago.
Yeah.
People know the places that Asher visits, people know Asher.
And so there's this sense of community of like, yeah, our, our tribe.
City it.
A lot of people that interact with Asher know him and know his limitations
and his needs and just knowing that even when I wasn't there, there
were people that had eyes on him.
Like, that's such a comforting feeling to know that within our
community it has almost a smaller village feel to it in the middle of
a huge city with 3 million people.
But okay, you're one of
Rupert Isaacson: those integrated neighborhoods.
Yeah.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
It feels so good to know that there's people on every corner
that know him and know us.
That's really special.
You know,
Rupert Isaacson: he's going to a restaurant.
How does he deal with his desire to eat more food than he can?
Amanda Atkins: So I coached Elle before, you know, and that puts her
in a difficult position 'cause she's his friend, she's the same age as him.
But I said, you know, he can, Asher always orders off the kids' menu.
That's like one of his things.
And so he did that and I just knew going into it, he's
gonna finish all of his food.
If there's ketchup, he's gonna lick the ketchup, he's gonna get an apple
juice, even though I don't want him to.
I'm letting go.
It's fine.
Yeah.
It's one night.
Rupert Isaacson: It's fine.
But he is, he not gonna want to just keep ordering and keep
ordering and keep ordering.
Amanda Atkins: I just knew Al wouldn't let him, you know, Al would, you know,
I guess said, let him order what he orders and you know, just one thing.
And he even like, brought our credit card so that he could pay for it,
like to be the gentleman and stuff.
It was very sweet.
So yeah, it was, it was a cool experience.
But knowing the community aspect that there's, you know, there very well may
have been people in that restaurant that night that even knew him.
Just people, you know?
Yeah.
Regular people eating there.
So the importance of community.
Right.
Rupert Isaacson: And his relationship with Al and the other young
woman, he wants to zoom with them.
He wants to spend time with them.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
But
Rupert Isaacson: he's not.
Frustrated or heartbroken that he can't have a relationship with them.
Amanda Atkins: He doesn't seem to be, because there's been points where one
of 'em will maybe get a boyfriend or something, and Asher just kind of knows.
It's like no big deal.
He never seems like I've said before, do you, do you have a crush on her?
Do you like her?
And he's like, no, you know, she's my friend.
She's my friend.
So I don't know.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes, it's it's such a, it's such a mystery.
Amanda Atkins: It really is.
Rupert Isaacson: This is a hard question to ask.
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Can I just ask it straight out?
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: What's the life expectancy in general with Prada?
Amanda Atkins: It seems like it's, it can range anywhere from, you know, young
to old, but there's no, there's no like evidence to say that he will die young.
Rupert Isaacson: Is there a sort of bang in the middle prognosis that normally.
Amanda Atkins: It.
So much of it depends on weight
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Amanda Atkins: And health around that, you know?
Yeah.
Health around all of that.
And so, you know, there's a lot of other things like sleep apnea or things like
that that can definitely impact life.
But as it stands right now, there's no reason that Asher
would not live to be, you know, 60 or 60 years old, give or take.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Amanda Atkins: Young, young.
I mean, we're not talking 80 or nine.
Also young by, by all standards
Rupert Isaacson: now.
Yeah.
Not young by 14th century standards, you know?
Correct.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So, I, I didn't know about sleep apnea.
I was gonna go somewhere else for this question, but just talk
to me briefly about sleep apnea.
Why is that a thing with, prior to,
Amanda Atkins: so kind of the main treatment for PWS is growth hormone.
The growth hormone injections.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Amanda Atkins: And growth hormone can lead to an overgrowth of
adenoids and tonsils and all of that.
Oh, okay.
We did get, and so he's, he's been followed for apnea.
Forever since he's been on the growth growth hormone.
But he does have his adenoids and everything removed, but it's still
something frequently that we get sleep studies just to check in on that.
'cause that can be a definite concern for people with PWS.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, good.
That's good to know.
Yeah.
Okay.
So, you know, if, for example, longevity is to a large
degree predicated upon weight.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And the best people to probably be in control of
that, are you and your husband Yes.
Or the more reason to be the providers of the service of the home
that he eventually goes to living.
Amanda Atkins: Totally.
Rupert Isaacson: Totally.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Amanda Atkins: I'll be in control of the menu, like Right, exactly.
It's really to that point.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So,
given that that is probably inevitably what you're going to do.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Have you been thinking about models?
Like, are you gonna form a nonprofit.
Are you going to reach out for mentorship?
Are there other people already doing this with Pril that, you know who
Amanda Atkins: I don't know.
Any.
Any, yeah, I'm not sure.
I don't really know anyone else in the PWS community that's doing this,
but there, there are other people, even in like the Chicago area that
have kids right about the same age that have talked about this as well,
that are, you know, meeting to sort of discuss what next steps would mean.
But really it's all very new to me, so I'm like right in the beginning
stages of even thinking about all this.
Rupert Isaacson: So I guess
Amanda Atkins: you are who I'm gonna be talking to.
Yeah.
We'll absolutely
Rupert Isaacson: have that conversation for anyone who's listening.
Yes.
You need to found a nonprofit.
Yeah.
And that is not a big deal.
You can be up and running in six weeks.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And you are in a unique position in the same way that some of
the people I know who are physicians.
Who run their, who have autism, parents who've started things Yeah.
Are a unique position.
'cause you could run a family practice out of that business.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And for example, Rowan, my son, is now to some degree
professionally himself in that he helps me when I'm going round, doing
particularly movement method trainings.
He will talk to the therapists, the caregivers, the parents who were training
in our methods about what it is to be autistic from the inside, how it felt to
go from the kind of nonverbal, disoriented fog he calls it, the fog to emerging
from that fog and what that process was.
A lot of autistic people will talk about this.
It's, it's, it's, it's really fascinating.
What to do to ensure success.
Why follow the child, you know, blah, blah, blah.
And so he's really
professionally him.
Amanda Atkins: Hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And I could see that if you were to do that in the family therapy
context with Asha, you know mm-hmm.
It's, it's a, a wonderful thing if Asha comes into the room or Rowan comes
to the room, sits down Oh my gosh.
And says, this is how it is from my point of view.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Amazing.
Rupert Isaacson: And then a parent who's perhaps, you know,
at the very, very start of that
Amanda Atkins: Mm.
Mount
Rupert Isaacson: Everest that they have to climb can say, well, actually, yeah.
Oh wow, okay.
That, yeah.
That it's climbable.
Yeah.
That's reassuring.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So I could see you being in a pretty unique position there.
Mm-hmm.
And actually being able to come in, you know, not just being a service.
User, but a service provider.
Amanda Atkins: That's right.
I love that too, because it's like, we all got into this because of
our, our kid, but it's also become a passion to help other parents and
other kids in these situations too.
So it's, you know, the benefit is there's so much benefit there that we're,
we're doing the work that we're doing so that other parents maybe don't have
to start from the bottom or the, at least they feel like there's some hope.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Well, and particularly when you've, you've, you've stumbled upon solutions.
Yes.
You know, so when, when we stumbled upon this thing and then we realized
that it came down to this basic, but then I need to know why was it working?
Why was it working?
And That's right.
So then I, so, or something in the brain and the nervous system,
well, who understands brains and nervous systems, neuroscientists.
Right.
So I went and spoke to neuroscientists and said, can you explain why this
thing that we're doing is working?
And they could, and then we realized, oh shit, we could replicate it then.
Amanda Atkins: Right.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, that's good.
But I went through a bit of a, do I want to do that?
Because as soon as you become a bit of a public bigger right.
You know, people are gonna throw mud, blah, blah, blah.
And I thought one, it got, it got to because there's almost like a moral
obligation because there are so many parents out there who are in the
position that I was in 20 years ago.
Yes,
Amanda Atkins: yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Who are not knowing what to do, who didn't,
haven't gone and met Temple Grandin.
That's right.
And that's right.
And so we stumbled into this technology.
If we don't make it available, that's not very nice.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: There was a bit of a temptation at the beginning
to say, why don't we just stay within the family and keep, of
Amanda Atkins: course.
Rupert Isaacson: And that would be easier, but it wouldn't have been in the long run
because there would've been no community.
Amanda Atkins: That's right.
That's right.
Rupert Isaacson: And no support and no support for him and
no livelihood for him and no.
Mm-hmm.
So I do feel actually that, that generally what I say is you, you're in
this not only for the rest of your life.
You're in this beyond the grave.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: You have to set up these structures.
So, okay, let's go.
So as it
Amanda Atkins: turns out, our identity is full circle.
'cause I started saying, I'm not gonna find my identity
in this, and then here I am.
Rupert Isaacson: But that's such an adolescent thing to say, isn't it?
It is.
Like, exactly, exactly.
That seems that one even has an identity.
Amanda Atkins: That's right, that's right.
Is an
Rupert Isaacson: identity that's a fixed thing and not That's right.
Endlessly mutable because of course, what is
Amanda Atkins: exactly,
Rupert Isaacson: anyway, it's just
Amanda Atkins: Exactly.
And of course we're gonna be changed forever by this experience.
It's ingrained in us now.
Rupert Isaacson: And I think by parenting in general, let's say it
special needs wasn't in the picture.
You do exist for your children.
That's right.
That's, that is just a, a biological fact to you.
Yeah, you do.
It doesn't mean you can't pursue your own fulfillment.
But that's still in service too.
Amanda Atkins: Yep.
Rupert Isaacson: And you actually won't be happy unless it is,
because we are just wired that way.
Yeah.
But I know that feeling.
Yes.
That's a very sort of twenties, thirties way to think.
Totally.
I'm not going to be, yeah.
I'm blah.
That's not gonna define me.
And it's like,
Amanda Atkins: yeah.
It's like the first thing outta my mouth, huh?
Yeah.
No, he has a disability.
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: But, you know, it brings out the best in us, I think.
Amanda Atkins: Totally.
Totally.
Rupert Isaacson: You know, you wouldn't be who you are.
You wouldn't have written this book.
Amanda Atkins: Exactly.
Rupert Isaacson: You wouldn't have become this family therapist.
Yeah.
Now, speaking of the book, I'd like you to read a little bit from it, please.
All right.
Amanda Atkins: Okay, so this is in kind of in the last chapter, which
is a chapter all about, it's called a whole You, and it's all about how
we find meaning in this journey.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay?
Amanda Atkins: All right.
You have your own passions, worldviews, and values.
You have lived your own unique life shaped by experiences from your
childhood, culture, religion, and all the other factors of your story.
The good, the bad, the ugly, and everything in between.
Parenting a disabled child very well may be your most life-changing
experience, but there are many, many other factors that make you who you are.
Finding meaning in parenting a disabled child can help you build a bridge
from the person you were before your child was born, to the person you
are now and who you will become.
This work can lead you to a choice, reinforce a worldview, make a
worldview crumble, or light a fire inside you to create something that
makes the world a better place.
The question is, who are you?
Who is the whole you?
In light of, not in spite of your role as the parent to a disabled child,
your parenting experience has no doubt changed you, but your core self, values,
passions, fears, joys, it's all there.
And it's important that you give yourself permission to be the whole you
as you consider your sense of self and where you find meaning in your life.
I'll never dismiss the hard parts of parenting a disabled
child, but with the lowest lows come some of the highest highs.
When you've spent endless hours in physical therapy with your child,
watching them muster up all their strength to tackle a milestone, is
earth shattering in the best way, seeing your baby smile, make eye contact,
come out of a surgery or seizure?
These are the moments where you find real meaning in life on a larger scale.
Applying your awareness of disability to your worldview can look like realizing
that disability is a normal part of diversity and seeing beauty in all people.
This is both simple and revolutionary all at the same time.
Being the parent of a disabled child has fundamentally changed
the way I view the world.
I now understand that all emotions, not just the pleasurable ones
are meant to be part of life.
I now know that the goal is not pleasure.
The goal is not perfection.
What is the goal you ask to be present through all of it?
There is so much beauty and value scattered throughout the human.
The the experience of parenting a disabled child.
We get to be a companion to our child through all of life's ups and downs.
Parenting is the hardest job but parenting a disabled child with compassion,
advocacy, vulnerability, and balance, that's often the hardest, hardest job.
We are the keepers of our child's life, often responsible
for decision making and future planning, and not just for 18 years.
It could last one year or it could last 60.
And if I'm being honest, either option terrifies me.
I can do it, and so can you.
Scattered amid the joy and grief somewhere under all the caretaking
and responsibility is you.
You're not the same person you were before.
Parenting through your world, upside down.
You've changed, but you're in there.
You're allowed to be more than just a parent.
You're allowed to have complex emotions about your parenting experience and
not feel like you have to add the caveat, but I love my child so much
because love and pain can coexist.
I've often heard people say something like, take care of yourself.
You owe it to your child.
But that rhetoric is part of what makes us feel guilty about having
complex emotions about parenting.
Our child cannot be the sole motivation for our wellbeing.
You deserve to be fully whole a person who feels all the emotions without
self-judgment, a person who advocates for their child and for themselves.
You deserve care, love, and self-compassion.
Take care of yourself.
You owe it to you
Rupert Isaacson: west.
Live by, well, what's the first thing you are gonna do for your
self care when we're done with this?
Amanda Atkins: Oh, I'm gonna go outside here in a little bit and walk in the snow.
It's like 30 degrees, but you gotta get out there.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Out there.
And what are gonna do?
What, what, what, what?
What are you gonna do for joy while you're out there?
Amanda Atkins: You know, I love just seeing the birds,
smelling the smells of the snow.
Just slowing down for a minute.
Got a busy day, a
Rupert Isaacson: busy week.
Well, but what, what?
You identified two things there.
You're gonna go and observe nature.
Amanda Atkins: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: When you go and self care,
is that your first go-to, to observe nature?
Amanda Atkins: Yeah, it is.
Whether it's outside or inside my dog.
Yeah.
Birds weather.
Yeah.
Leaves,
yeah.
Smells, yeah.
Nature for me.
For sure.
Rupert Isaacson: It's so interesting, isn't it?
It's, it's, it's, it's the thing that is not talked about in therapy.
Yeah.
And I remember when I was going through therapy talk therapy
Amanda Atkins: mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And I was thinking, sitting there thinking, wow, I
know more about the brain than this person talking to me does.
Right.
What I'm talking to.
I know that sitting here in this chair in this room is not gonna do the trick.
No.
I need the move, I need movement for my brain.
Yep.
I need endorphins.
I need neuro BDNF, brain derived neurotrophic plaque factor.
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Neuroplasticity moving around in nature.
I need
Amanda Atkins: Yep.
Rupert Isaacson: The habitat that my organism.
Requires in order to mm-hmm.
Do wellbeing.
And it's so interesting to me that within the therapy thing, it's, and there are
people, like I'm a nature therapist,
Amanda Atkins: right?
Rupert Isaacson: But the average therapy that has come outta the sort
of 19th century JGI and Freudian
Amanda Atkins: mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Psycho-analysis, and then on from there only looks at
nature in terms of archetypes.
Right.
And symbolism
Amanda Atkins: and does therapy in these little rooms with flu life, they were
Rupert Isaacson: these like blokes, these academics who like sat in rooms
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: In Vienna, you know.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah, exactly.
Rupert Isaacson: And, and, and obsessed about stuff.
Amanda Atkins: Yep.
Rupert Isaacson: But
interestingly, the best therapists I've ever come across, human ones are.
Kalahari, koan, Bushman, shamans, hunter, gatherer.
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Healers living in that authentic human way.
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And
I like the fact that when I asked you the question, what are you gonna go do now?
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
He
Rupert Isaacson: basically said, I'm gonna go out in the snow, observe.
Yeah.
Smell the snow and observe the birds.
Amanda Atkins: Yep.
Rupert Isaacson: What I'm gonna go do, 'cause I'm six, seven hours ahead of you
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Is I'm going to go downstairs and sit by the fire
Amanda Atkins: Yep.
Rupert Isaacson: By with my children.
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Which is also nature, you know.
Amanda Atkins: That's right.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And, and listen to the wind, you know, around
the old farmhouse and pet.
Love it.
My dog.
Amanda Atkins: Yep.
Yeah.
Yep.
Rupert Isaacson: And also talk to my wife and my children, which
is tribe, which is also nature.
Right.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: It is simpler, I think, I think, than we think it is.
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: But it can also be hard to access nature if you are
sitting in an apartment in a tower block in Queens or, yes, Tokyo.
Then, so then, you know, you said also I liked this nature could be inside too.
Mm-hmm.
So are there plants, are there natural materials?
Do you have a pet?
Amanda Atkins: That's right.
That's right.
Rupert Isaacson: Are there, yeah.
These things are of such paramount importance
Amanda Atkins: mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Overlooked, but I think sometimes can be the difference
between survival and non survival.
Totally.
And they bring joy.
Mm-hmm.
So,
okay.
I think people will probably want to contact you and find you.
How do they find Dr.
Joy?
Yeah, I like that.
And yeah, you can yeah.
Tell people how they can reach out to you and, and get mentorship from you
and find your book and all of that.
Okay.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
You can find my book really anywhere.
Books are sold online or if you wanna go to your local bookstore and
order your li there are in lots of libraries in the United States too.
And yeah, you can find me on my website, Amanda Griffith Atkins.
That's G-R-I-F-F-I-T ht KI s.com.
Amanda Griffith atkins.com,
and I'm on Instagram at Amanda Period.
Griffith Period, Atkins.
Those are the best ways to find me or send me an email.
I'm a real person.
Very accessible.
Rupert Isaacson: I imagine that you do consultancies and
things like that over Zoom.
Yep.
I do parent
Amanda Atkins: consultations and I always like to kind of say, it's
not like when I'm doing a parent consultation, it's not a how to parent.
I'm not that kind of therapist that's gonna tell you how to raise your child.
I'm more gonna tell you how to take care of yourself while
you're raising your child.
So keep that in mind too.
Yeah.
I'm all about the parent.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And I would like, I would like to collaborate with you.
I was leading a retreat this year in Sweden in the wilds of Sweden is amazing.
And one of the people who was on it is a fellow special needs parent, and
she started talking her daughter's in her thirties and began talking about
the long term trauma
Amanda Atkins: mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Of mm-hmm.
The accumulated trauma of being a special needs parent.
That particularly sort of when they get much older and you are
now dealing with that kind of.
Tiredness.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: 'Cause you've been in it two, three decades by then.
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And I'm realizing that in our work we don't yet have that program.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So let's do it.
Should do it.
Amanda Atkins: Let's do it.
Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: We'll bring Leanna in as well.
Amanda Atkins: Yes, yes.
Oh, Leanna
Rupert Isaacson: Lad's listeners, if you're listening to this, you've
gotta go check out the Livery Ride Free with Leanna Tank 'cause Yes, rad.
And we having this conversation if it wasn't for Leanna.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Yeah.
I love Leanna.
Yeah.
Well thank you.
What a gift
Rupert Isaacson: gift.
Yeah, likewise.
I look forward to the continuing conversation.
Amanda Atkins: Yep.
Take care.
Rupert Isaacson: You too.
Amanda Atkins: Bye
Rupert Isaacson: bye.
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