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Rupert Isaacson: Thanks for joining us.

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Welcome to Live Free, Ride Free.

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I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New
York Times bestselling author of

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The Horseboy and The Long Ride Home.

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Before I jump in with today's guest, I
want to say a huge thank you to you, our

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audience, for helping to make this happen.

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I have a request.

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If you like what we do here,
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like, subscribe, tell a friend.

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It really, really helps
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To find out about our certification
courses, online video libraries,

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books, and other courses,
please go to rupertisaacson.com.

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So now let's jump in.

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Welcome back to Live Free.

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Ride Free.

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I've got Amanda Griffith Atkins,
who is the author of How to

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Handle More Than You Can Handle.

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I know a lot of us listening
to this will know exactly or

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resonate exactly with that title.

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I know I do.

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Being the father of an autistic son
overwhelm is well, overwhelms are us.

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So it's good to be able to talk about
it squarely because then it allows 'em

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to think about what might we do how
might we end the feelings of isolation.

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Some people feel shame, some people feel
all sorts of things, but I know that.

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For me in the early years particularly,
isolation was the thing, because if

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you have the kid who's taking a their
clothes off and pooping on the floor of

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the supermarket at the checkout counter,
you've sort of avoid going, you know,

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and this, you know, begins to snowball.

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And there's so many parents out
there in this kind of position.

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So this book that Amanda has written
is, is a very valuable thing.

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So Amanda, thank you
for coming on the show.

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Please tell us, you know, a bit about who
you are and why did you write this book.

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Amanda Atkins: Well,
thanks for having me and.

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I was listening to your audio book
recently and could just resonate with

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so much of what you said about the early
years and, you know, you beautifully

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articulated your anger and your rage and
all the complicated feelings that it feels

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like good parents aren't allowed to have.

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And so, you know, from that sentiment
is sort of where my book was birthed.

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I was 26 when I had Asher
Fresh out of grad school.

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You know, in hindsight it felt,
feels like I was a baby at the time.

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You know, 26, it feels so young to
have this really high needs child.

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Had just graduated with my shiny new
master's degree from Northwestern

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University and really felt like,
okay, like I'm on top of the world.

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You know, I'm at, I'm
ready to start my career.

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I've done everything right, I've
checked all the boxes and then

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gave birth to a son with a one in
20,000 syndrome, pr, Willy Syndrome.

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And this particular syndrome
is all encompassing.

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It's cognitive delays, physical delays,
and if you were to Google it, the thing

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that you'll read right off the bat
is what's called insatiable hunger.

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So meaning the part of his brain
that doesn't re that registers hunger

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hypothalamus doesn't work properly for
him, or rather, I should say, the part

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of his brain that registers fullness.

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So Asher lives with a feeling
of hunger all the time.

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Throw in a healthy dose of OCD.

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And some pretty intense rigidity and
perseveration and you know, food really

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kind of consumes our life, meaning
that a lot of people with PWS, their

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families lock up the refrigerator.

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You know, things like dog food,
toothpaste, anything remotely edible

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can instantly become a threat.

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And so, you know, imagine being held,
being handed your, you know, baby and

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told that this is the future, right?

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And so really early on I felt so
conflicted because I felt like

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the expectation was that I should
be the special needs warrior.

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You know, I should wear the ribbon of PWS,
I should go to the five Ks I should raise.

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Money and just really early on it
felt like I, I felt so resistant to

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my identity being taken over by this.

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Mm-hmm.

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And

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Rupert Isaacson: actually
at 26, the irony,

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Amanda Atkins: the irony now that
here we are both talking about our,

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you know, talking about what it means
to parent child with a disability.

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In some ways my identity
has become consumed with it.

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Yeah.

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But I like to think it's in my own way.

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So anyway, so early on I
just felt such resistance to.

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I felt that people really did not know how
to respond when I said I was struggling,

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when I said we've had a really hard day
or we're any really hard stretch you

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know, I'm really struggling emotionally.

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People always felt the need to
meet that with, oh, but you guys

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are such a parents for Asher.

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Or you know, kids are so resilient.

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Or, you know, the phrase from the title
of the book, God won't, oh God won't give

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you more than you can handle anything
religious, you know, is thrown onto it.

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Of course.

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And so I sort of felt like this is
actually more than I can handle.

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Like, you know, I feel like every part
of my life is being touched by this,

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my friendships, my marriage, my career,
my decision to have more children.

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All of it feels like it's just
imploding under the pressure

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of what, of this experience of
parenting such a high need child.

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And so, I felt like there needed to be
space for parents and caregivers to talk

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about how hard this is in a way that,
that, that, you don't have to throw

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the caveat, but I really love my child.

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Right.

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Because of course I love my child.

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Like of course I love
him exactly as he is.

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But would I change it?

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If I could, I might, you know?

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Mm-hmm.

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And I feel like there's, there's
not a lot of room for us to say

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that as parents, so that the book
kind of came outta that place.

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And I really felt the need to touch
on our, our identity as parents, and

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that we're allowed to have an identity
that's more than just a caretaker.

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Because I feel like a lot of parents
really struggle to pursue anything other

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than anything that involves their child.

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And I just wanna, I want parents to
know that like, number one, your life's

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not over, but you have to work at it.

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You have to work at it, you know?

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Rupert Isaacson: Well, you are a,
you're a family therapist, um mm-hmm.

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And you've got a pretty I.

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Burgeoning practice.

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Were you, was that as a result of becoming
a special needs mom or were you already

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heading for that route before you, like,
was that what you were gonna be anyway?

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Amanda Atkins: Well, that's a good
question because I think in some ways

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my career is a constant, like urged to
like overcompensate for the lost time.

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Like, it almost feels like, you
know, there was a moment where I

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was like, oh, I'm never gonna work.

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Like I'm gonna be a stay
at home parent forever.

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This isn't what, you know, I, I, I, I
got this training, I'm really passionate

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about being a therapist, but I was
a stay at home mom for three years.

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So not, not an incredibly long time, but
long enough in the beginning to where it

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felt like I'm really behind in my career.

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And so I think once I was able to kind
of get my feet under me, I really felt

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like, wow, I really wanna run with this.

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I really want to grow this practice.

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So, I wouldn't say it was necessarily.

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A result of having a
child with a disability.

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But it kind of, I realized
I wanted to have career.

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Rupert Isaacson: Right.

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But it wasn't where you were going
after grad school before you had Asha.

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Amanda Atkins: No, no, no, no.

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Yeah, yeah.

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What, so what, what

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Rupert Isaacson: were you,
what were you hoping to be?

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What, what was, what did you come at?

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What was your master

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Amanda Atkins: degree?

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Well, well, well, I was in grad school,
aft I was, I, I was going to be a

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therapist by the time Asher was born.

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I knew I wanted to be a therapist, but I
don't think that I ever saw myself in this

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niche of, like, working with caregivers.

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That's for sure.

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You know, I've always
had an interest in grief.

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That's always been kind
of my primary interest.

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So why, why,

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Rupert Isaacson: why is
that been in your interest?

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Amanda Atkins: I think there's something
there about how this, something can

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happen to you and it never goes away.

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Like it changes you forever.

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You know, grief is something that
we're all gonna experience, whether,

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like I'm talking about grief from
like, the death of a loved one.

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Mm-hmm.

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It's something that's
gonna happen to all of us.

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So it's not unique to you or to me, but
it's something that's so life changing.

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Mm.

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There's no way to like get
out of it easily, I guess.

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And that, that's always struck me because
it's like none of us are immune to it.

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And it's just something that's so
profoundly impactful to all of us.

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Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

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Yeah.

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But when I was at university, I wasn't
thinking about doing anything like that.

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Why do you think as a young woman at
late adolescent woman, why were you,

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was there, was there a family story that

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Amanda Atkins: Yes.

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Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So what, what, what?

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You're so interested in grief.

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Yeah.

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See,

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Amanda Atkins: you could be a therapist.

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Okay.

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You're good at this.

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Alright.

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So when I was in high school, I.

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My best friend though, there's
a big group of us that were

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all hanging out at the lake.

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And my best friend at the time, her
boyfriend, said he wasn't feeling well.

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So he went into the bathroom
and he ended up collapsing.

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And we were 16 years old.

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9 1 1 was called, bunch of my
friends were trying to give CPR and

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everything, and he ended up basically,
he had an asthma attack and he died.

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And it was this just insane
experience of being like, oh my gosh,

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someone's alive to someone's dead.

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And, and I was her best friend.

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And so I was in this position of like.

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Caretaking for her listening to her.

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I mean, I went home with her that
night and I remember like put

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putting pictures of him upside down.

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She asked me to do it.

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And so I just sort of like got
put in this almost like therapist

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role of caretaking mm-hmm.

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For my best friend right
after her boyfriend died.

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And just kind of walking through
that grief process with her

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made me really not afraid of it.

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I mean, mean not afraid of grieving
people and feeling like I could sort

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of walk into that experience of someone
who had experienced this big loss.

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Rupert Isaacson: Interesting.

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Yeah.

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How did she, I presume because she
was quite young and they had not been

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together very long, I should imagine
that a certain point she did move on.

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Amanda Atkins: Absolutely.

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Yeah.

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Rupert Isaacson: And you know
why though, in that case did

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you think it stayed with you?

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What made you think Yeah, you know,
I kind of want to pursue a career.

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Amanda Atkins: I think I just
felt so comfortable with it.

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I, I noticed a lot of other people weren't
quite sure the right thing to say to

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her or maybe didn't bring it up at all.

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And I never felt scared of the
topic of talking about pain.

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Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.

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Amanda Atkins: I guess it felt
very comfortable to me and I'd

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never, I never was afraid of it.

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Rupert Isaacson: Was that, talk
to me about your own family

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background, your parents.

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Were they people who would
talk very openly about this

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sort of thing, for example?

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Amanda Atkins: No, that's the irony
of just me being a therapist is that I

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come from a family that it uses humor.

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It's all humor.

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It's all crude humor,
you know, like it's fun.

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Oh, it fit right

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in.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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It's great.

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It's a great, it's a such a fun family,
but when it comes to vulnerability

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or more tender or raw emotions,
there's no expression of it at all.

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And so I, I, I almost feel like,
I don't know, it almost felt.

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I was so needed an outlet to face hard
feelings and discomfort that I like maybe

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looked for in other, or, or I don't know
if I looked for it in other people, but

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it, I wanted to give a voice to it because
it was something in my family of origin

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that was never like freely talked about.

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I,

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Rupert Isaacson: and was it something
that needed to be talked about?

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Like there were all these elephants
in the room, or Not even with not,

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Amanda Atkins: it was just
more subtle than that.

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That's like my family is, it's the kind,
even like in writing a book, right?

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Like my pa my parents, they're still
married you know, in their seventies.

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They listened to the audiobook
and they were like, what?

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We're really proud of you.

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I was like, that's probably the first
time I've ever heard we're proud of you.

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Or That's great, because

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Rupert Isaacson: I've
never heard it from my

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Amanda Atkins: parents.

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Yeah.

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Well it took, yeah.

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And you've written a book too.

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Come on.

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What more can we do that's not fair.

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Yeah, so I mean, it, that's, that's it.

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There's no, you know, there's no.

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Every now and again, they'll
say, how many copies?

00:12:33.840 --> 00:12:36.330
My mom said, how many
copies have you sold?

00:12:36.540 --> 00:12:38.580
I told her and she said, that's it.

00:12:40.440 --> 00:12:42.030
Rupert Isaacson: My answer to
that is always both of them.

00:12:43.195 --> 00:12:43.645
Amanda Atkins: Okay, good.

00:12:43.710 --> 00:12:43.920
Okay.

00:12:43.920 --> 00:12:45.060
I'm gonna use that from now on.

00:12:45.060 --> 00:12:45.570
I'm gonna use that.

00:12:46.140 --> 00:12:48.480
So, you know, it's just, I don't know.

00:12:48.480 --> 00:12:48.990
I don't know.

00:12:48.990 --> 00:12:50.310
I don't exactly know.

00:12:50.580 --> 00:12:55.991
My, my mom's mom had a disability,
she had a limb difference, Uhhuh, and

00:12:55.991 --> 00:12:58.950
so I sort of have the, and that was
like in the fifties, and so, okay.

00:12:59.120 --> 00:13:01.670
I have this, she only,
so she only had one arm.

00:13:01.940 --> 00:13:06.110
Ah, and I, I, I contribute some of my
mom's discomfort about talking about

00:13:06.110 --> 00:13:09.440
hard things as I wonder if her mom
really modeled, like, we don't talk

00:13:09.440 --> 00:13:11.240
about differences, you know, just.

00:13:11.885 --> 00:13:14.135
Get back on the horse,
buck up, like, you know,

00:13:14.435 --> 00:13:16.865
Rupert Isaacson: that would seem
likely from that generation, right?

00:13:17.225 --> 00:13:17.375
Yeah.

00:13:17.380 --> 00:13:17.560
In the

00:13:17.560 --> 00:13:19.325
Amanda Atkins: fifties, it's
like, yeah, I have a difference.

00:13:19.325 --> 00:13:22.295
Yes, I could wallow in it, but I'm not
going to, we just gotta keep going.

00:13:22.295 --> 00:13:26.495
So I think that's probably messaging
that was passed down through the years.

00:13:26.555 --> 00:13:30.155
You know, my dad was in the Vietnam
War, his family was really poor.

00:13:30.155 --> 00:13:34.625
Lots of, you know, it's, it's just like
lots of messaging around like, what,

00:13:34.655 --> 00:13:36.575
what does it really mean to suffer?

00:13:36.845 --> 00:13:38.735
What, what is worth talking about?

00:13:38.735 --> 00:13:39.215
And suffering.

00:13:39.215 --> 00:13:43.655
Like surely feelings suffering and your
feelings, it's like not that important

00:13:43.655 --> 00:13:45.455
when it's like there's much other things.

00:13:45.575 --> 00:13:47.495
Rupert Isaacson: It is interesting
though that the generations that

00:13:47.495 --> 00:13:53.375
came through the Depression in World
War ii they had to simply cope.

00:13:53.975 --> 00:13:54.485
Amanda Atkins: That's right.

00:13:54.725 --> 00:13:58.565
Rupert Isaacson: In a way that
I think is unimaginable for Yes.

00:13:58.985 --> 00:13:59.885
Our generation.

00:14:00.365 --> 00:14:03.185
And I would posit that that kind of.

00:14:03.560 --> 00:14:08.690
Jocular Stoicism was
probably the best tool.

00:14:09.410 --> 00:14:09.560
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

00:14:09.590 --> 00:14:13.610
Rupert Isaacson: Because when you're
dealing with, I mean, obviously the

00:14:13.610 --> 00:14:17.000
experience of World War ii, for example,
for the Americans, was very different

00:14:17.000 --> 00:14:20.720
to the Europeans in that it wasn't as,
you know, it didn't impact civilians

00:14:20.900 --> 00:14:25.100
except for the fact that their, you
know, their, their boys were killed.

00:14:25.470 --> 00:14:27.030
But the cities were not being destroyed.

00:14:27.030 --> 00:14:28.080
Women were not being raped.

00:14:28.180 --> 00:14:31.390
You know, Bayview were not being
bayonetted like within America.

00:14:31.840 --> 00:14:32.110
Mm-hmm.

00:14:32.300 --> 00:14:34.430
That of course, all
happened in, in, in Europe.

00:14:34.930 --> 00:14:35.590
But

00:14:37.870 --> 00:14:44.860
I do have a great respect, I
think, for the place of that kind

00:14:44.860 --> 00:14:49.850
of joo stoicism because I think
it does also build resilience.

00:14:49.910 --> 00:14:55.610
And I, you know, it's a, it's becoming
so cliched at the moment, but I think

00:14:55.610 --> 00:15:01.430
that, I don't think I observe that, the
current, younger, young adult generation

00:15:01.430 --> 00:15:06.770
is less resilient palpably than mine was.

00:15:06.770 --> 00:15:10.070
And I'm half a, you know, I'm, I'm
probably half a generation on from you.

00:15:10.670 --> 00:15:14.330
So it seems that there's been a
kind of diminishment of resilience.

00:15:14.900 --> 00:15:20.540
So I have really mixed feelings about
the let's talk it all out thing.

00:15:20.615 --> 00:15:21.035
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.

00:15:21.120 --> 00:15:21.200
Mm-hmm.

00:15:22.220 --> 00:15:25.220
Rupert Isaacson: Because I can see
I'm absolutely can see both points of

00:15:25.220 --> 00:15:28.250
view, so I end up doing both, you know?

00:15:28.255 --> 00:15:29.330
Amanda Atkins: Yeah, yeah.

00:15:30.050 --> 00:15:33.050
Rupert Isaacson: And as you say, you
know, I wrote a couple of books about

00:15:33.050 --> 00:15:37.460
my own experience and definitely
put my own feelings in there.

00:15:38.000 --> 00:15:41.795
And at the same time, there's an
awful lot of toilet humor, you know?

00:15:41.795 --> 00:15:42.115
Mm-hmm.

00:15:42.195 --> 00:15:43.820
Because that's what gets you through.

00:15:44.390 --> 00:15:44.750
Amanda Atkins: I agree.

00:15:45.110 --> 00:15:47.460
Rupert Isaacson: You know, the, the toilet
humor actually got us up the mountain.

00:15:48.245 --> 00:15:51.725
You know, to the shaman in
Siberia when nothing else.

00:15:51.725 --> 00:15:51.845
Yeah.

00:15:52.415 --> 00:15:53.065
You know, that's right.

00:15:53.070 --> 00:15:53.510
Gods of humor.

00:15:53.605 --> 00:15:53.905
That's right.

00:15:53.995 --> 00:15:55.285
Toilet humor saved us.

00:15:55.445 --> 00:15:59.885
And actually when we are, I'm doing
trainings for our therapeutic approaches.

00:15:59.885 --> 00:16:04.145
I actually school people in toilet
humor for very specific reasons because

00:16:04.935 --> 00:16:08.355
you know, a lot of the kids who we are
dealing with are what I call therapy out.

00:16:08.895 --> 00:16:14.775
You know, if you, if you are a, a child
and you're being told every day for

00:16:14.805 --> 00:16:18.975
your whole childhood, basically you need
therapy, you are bas you're just getting

00:16:18.975 --> 00:16:20.355
a message saying you're not Right.

00:16:20.985 --> 00:16:21.555
Yeah.

00:16:21.555 --> 00:16:24.345
And this erodes yourself respect.

00:16:24.975 --> 00:16:33.045
And the only way you can reestablish
your self-respect if you've lost it,

00:16:33.765 --> 00:16:35.475
is some sort of act of rebellion.

00:16:36.165 --> 00:16:36.285
Mm-hmm.

00:16:36.525 --> 00:16:39.525
And of course, toilet humor is by
its very nature and act of rebellion.

00:16:40.335 --> 00:16:43.125
So the moment you start talking about poo.

00:16:43.900 --> 00:16:48.640
You give a safe outlet
for this person to rebel.

00:16:49.330 --> 00:16:49.720
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

00:16:50.170 --> 00:16:52.300
Rupert Isaacson: So there's a
restoration of self-respect.

00:16:52.660 --> 00:16:56.050
And then of course we're using it in
the educational context so you can teach

00:16:56.050 --> 00:16:57.580
all the natural sciences through poop.

00:16:57.585 --> 00:16:57.895
Amanda Atkins: That's right.

00:16:58.235 --> 00:16:58.515
You know, that's okay.

00:16:58.515 --> 00:16:59.770
And I'll never resist

00:16:59.935 --> 00:17:00.015
Rupert Isaacson: anything.

00:17:00.130 --> 00:17:04.420
And, and it's funny, I mean, and
if you pretend it's not funny, then

00:17:04.960 --> 00:17:07.780
the child, particularly kids, will
know that you're full of that thing

00:17:07.780 --> 00:17:08.860
that you're saying is not funny.

00:17:08.865 --> 00:17:09.175
Amanda Atkins: Uhhuh

00:17:09.835 --> 00:17:10.335
Rupert Isaacson: So, so true.

00:17:10.880 --> 00:17:11.810
It's God's free joke.

00:17:11.810 --> 00:17:13.400
Stuff that comes out of your ass is funny.

00:17:13.400 --> 00:17:13.940
It just is.

00:17:14.630 --> 00:17:16.670
You know, there's,
there's no way around it.

00:17:17.030 --> 00:17:20.240
So, but at the same time, you
know, you're absolutely right that

00:17:20.240 --> 00:17:23.870
things, there is also a point at
which things must be addressed.

00:17:23.960 --> 00:17:27.460
And it, what one is looking
for is, is that happy medium.

00:17:27.610 --> 00:17:27.670
Yeah.

00:17:27.730 --> 00:17:32.200
So in your book, you know, how, how
are you treading and your approach

00:17:32.200 --> 00:17:36.010
as a therapist, how are you treading
the line of that happy medium?

00:17:36.760 --> 00:17:37.510
Because Yeah.

00:17:37.510 --> 00:17:43.570
It's tempting to go all
out into a woe is me fest.

00:17:43.570 --> 00:17:43.630
Yeah.

00:17:43.780 --> 00:17:47.770
And there are sometimes when one needs
to put a tear in your beer kind of thing.

00:17:48.280 --> 00:17:48.670
Right.

00:17:48.670 --> 00:17:48.820
Amanda Atkins: But

00:17:49.090 --> 00:17:55.670
Rupert Isaacson: what, talk to us
about how you help people find that

00:17:55.670 --> 00:17:58.700
middle line if indeed you do, or you
know, and if you don't, what do you do?

00:17:59.690 --> 00:18:03.350
Amanda Atkins: Yeah, I think humor
is a huge part of my work often,

00:18:03.350 --> 00:18:04.610
you know, and I think that's it.

00:18:04.615 --> 00:18:06.020
It is so helpful.

00:18:06.440 --> 00:18:10.010
You know, you sit down with somebody who's
maybe very nervous or they have a lot of

00:18:10.010 --> 00:18:12.890
emotion, they're feeling really sad and.

00:18:13.535 --> 00:18:16.175
Humor just instantly lightens the energy.

00:18:16.175 --> 00:18:16.235
Yeah.

00:18:16.235 --> 00:18:18.395
It just instantly puts them at ease.

00:18:18.575 --> 00:18:22.025
It's medicine and shows them it is,
and shows them that I'm a real person.

00:18:22.030 --> 00:18:22.190
Mm.

00:18:23.315 --> 00:18:26.465
You know, like I, you know, I'm
not judging them or we have to

00:18:26.465 --> 00:18:28.265
find light in these situations.

00:18:28.265 --> 00:18:28.355
Right.

00:18:28.355 --> 00:18:30.095
Even on the hardest
day, don't laugh, you'll

00:18:30.275 --> 00:18:30.605
Rupert Isaacson: cry.

00:18:30.605 --> 00:18:31.175
Love in it.

00:18:31.175 --> 00:18:32.315
That's the Exactly.

00:18:32.315 --> 00:18:32.375
Yeah.

00:18:32.765 --> 00:18:35.045
Amanda Atkins: I, and I always
know I'm really in trouble when I

00:18:35.045 --> 00:18:38.165
sit down with a client that I feel
like can't access humor when I feel

00:18:38.165 --> 00:18:40.325
like they're totally stuck Yeah.

00:18:40.325 --> 00:18:41.045
In the sadness.

00:18:41.045 --> 00:18:43.985
And that does happen once in a while,
and I feel very outta my element.

00:18:43.985 --> 00:18:46.295
That's when I'm like, okay, we
gotta think bigger picture here.

00:18:46.295 --> 00:18:46.745
Like, you know,

00:18:47.105 --> 00:18:48.935
Rupert Isaacson: do you
automatically start making poo jokes?

00:18:49.595 --> 00:18:51.275
Amanda Atkins: I, I, something, anything.

00:18:51.275 --> 00:18:51.605
Yeah.

00:18:51.610 --> 00:18:54.005
I just, and if, if they
don't take the bait, I'm just

00:18:54.005 --> 00:18:55.085
like, oh no, I'm in trouble.

00:18:55.085 --> 00:18:55.925
What am I gonna do here?

00:18:55.925 --> 00:18:56.525
But, you know.

00:18:56.885 --> 00:18:56.945
Yeah.

00:18:56.945 --> 00:19:00.215
Because usually you just feel a lightness
when you make a joke and somebody.

00:19:01.040 --> 00:19:02.900
You know, whether it's a
little self-deprecating or

00:19:02.900 --> 00:19:04.085
whatever it is, it, it just

00:19:04.085 --> 00:19:04.610
Rupert Isaacson: helps.

00:19:04.670 --> 00:19:05.870
Well, it's also bonding, right?

00:19:05.900 --> 00:19:06.740
You know, it, it bonding.

00:19:06.740 --> 00:19:07.280
Exactly.

00:19:07.280 --> 00:19:08.750
It's the common humanity thing.

00:19:08.900 --> 00:19:09.440
Amanda Atkins: That's right.

00:19:09.440 --> 00:19:09.460
Rupert Isaacson: That's right.

00:19:09.460 --> 00:19:11.420
Let's, let's go through this together.

00:19:12.140 --> 00:19:12.560
Yeah.

00:19:12.610 --> 00:19:14.260
I just wanna ask you a couple
of questions about Asha.

00:19:14.260 --> 00:19:16.030
That, so how's he doing now?

00:19:16.060 --> 00:19:17.110
You told me he's 16.

00:19:17.650 --> 00:19:17.860
Yeah.

00:19:18.130 --> 00:19:20.770
I, I know various people with
Pril, so I know that it can

00:19:20.860 --> 00:19:21.310
Amanda Atkins: Oh,

00:19:21.430 --> 00:19:24.970
Rupert Isaacson: I, I know that
it can present quite differently.

00:19:24.970 --> 00:19:25.300
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

00:19:25.390 --> 00:19:25.540
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:19:25.540 --> 00:19:26.710
How's it presented with him

00:19:27.820 --> 00:19:28.390
Amanda Atkins: overall?

00:19:28.390 --> 00:19:29.500
He really is doing well.

00:19:29.500 --> 00:19:31.480
He's you know, he's a happy kid.

00:19:31.480 --> 00:19:34.600
He's in real, in good
health for the most part.

00:19:34.680 --> 00:19:39.510
He's active for, the biggest thing that
we struggle with it is like, sort of like

00:19:39.510 --> 00:19:46.260
obsessions and schedule and perseveration
and like, you know, that kind of thing.

00:19:46.260 --> 00:19:47.580
So it's really difficult.

00:19:47.580 --> 00:19:49.015
Like this past we were
visiting, can you find

00:19:49.020 --> 00:19:50.370
Rupert Isaacson: perseveration
for those listeners?

00:19:50.370 --> 00:19:50.550
Yeah.

00:19:50.580 --> 00:19:50.760
So like,

00:19:51.750 --> 00:19:52.050
Amanda Atkins: yep.

00:19:52.050 --> 00:19:52.980
So basically like.

00:19:53.310 --> 00:19:55.590
Focusing on the same thing
over and over and over.

00:19:55.590 --> 00:19:55.650
Yeah.

00:19:55.650 --> 00:19:56.875
So for him it's always into the loop.

00:19:56.875 --> 00:19:56.885
Yeah,

00:19:57.090 --> 00:19:57.600
exactly.

00:19:57.600 --> 00:20:00.040
It's like schedule or like,
you know, there's certain

00:20:00.040 --> 00:20:01.120
podcasts he likes to listen to.

00:20:01.120 --> 00:20:04.180
Like, the new podcast come out today,
I have to listen to it right now.

00:20:04.180 --> 00:20:07.930
Or, you know, like just things
that are like part of his routine

00:20:08.230 --> 00:20:10.870
and if there's any deviation from
it, we're kind of in trouble.

00:20:10.870 --> 00:20:14.260
So it's really hard for
our family to be flexible.

00:20:14.710 --> 00:20:16.390
Vacations are really hard.

00:20:16.390 --> 00:20:22.180
We do it, but it's, it is, everything's
loaded and difficult, so, yeah.

00:20:22.180 --> 00:20:24.280
But on the whole, he
really is doing quite well.

00:20:24.280 --> 00:20:28.900
He, he can read, he can write,
he's, you know, he is verbal.

00:20:29.320 --> 00:20:30.220
He's just Asher.

00:20:31.545 --> 00:20:35.590
Rupert Isaacson: How, how is he presenting
when it comes to the eating disorder?

00:20:36.130 --> 00:20:37.780
Amanda Atkins: Yeah, the
food thing is tricky.

00:20:37.780 --> 00:20:41.080
He definitely, the, one of the
tricky things about Asher is he's.

00:20:41.635 --> 00:20:43.525
He's tall and he's quite thin.

00:20:43.825 --> 00:20:47.125
He's like five foot seven
and he is like 115 pounds.

00:20:47.455 --> 00:20:48.570
Okay, so people don't necess.

00:20:48.640 --> 00:20:48.930
Yeah.

00:20:49.855 --> 00:20:50.215
Rupert Isaacson: So he's very thin.

00:20:50.215 --> 00:20:50.225
Thin.

00:20:50.225 --> 00:20:50.810
So he's not presenting as obese at all?

00:20:51.040 --> 00:20:52.495
Amanda Atkins: He's not, he's not.

00:20:52.495 --> 00:20:54.290
And you know, we've known about
his diagnosis and is that, and that

00:20:54.290 --> 00:20:56.305
Rupert Isaacson: because you are
controlling things quite tightly?

00:20:56.305 --> 00:20:56.665
Yes,

00:20:57.025 --> 00:20:57.355
Amanda Atkins: yes.

00:20:57.355 --> 00:20:59.845
And since he, since the day
we got his diagnosis, we've

00:21:00.055 --> 00:21:01.345
had a tight control on it.

00:21:01.615 --> 00:21:03.835
It's tricky because other
people look at that and they

00:21:03.835 --> 00:21:05.575
think, oh, like he, you know,

00:21:05.845 --> 00:21:06.145
yeah,

00:21:06.205 --> 00:21:09.385
he can eat whatever and, but the
reason he is that size is because

00:21:09.385 --> 00:21:11.305
we've worked hard to keep him that way.

00:21:11.305 --> 00:21:13.765
So he will, he will sneak food.

00:21:13.765 --> 00:21:14.755
He definitely will.

00:21:14.755 --> 00:21:18.210
You know, if there's, if there's
something that he wants, he,

00:21:18.415 --> 00:21:19.525
he will try and sneak it.

00:21:19.525 --> 00:21:20.995
He can eat a lot at one time.

00:21:20.995 --> 00:21:22.435
So it's just like a constant.

00:21:22.645 --> 00:21:24.265
Rupert Isaacson: What about the
dangerous stuff though, like,

00:21:24.265 --> 00:21:27.355
medications, toothpaste, you
know, he really is good with that.

00:21:27.355 --> 00:21:28.585
Amanda Atkins: The only thing
that you kind of have to

00:21:28.585 --> 00:21:29.935
watch him with is toothpaste.

00:21:30.265 --> 00:21:33.505
He does like to eat, is, he likes to
eat toothpaste if you don't watch him.

00:21:33.505 --> 00:21:34.915
But other than that, he is.

00:21:35.860 --> 00:21:39.130
Safe for the, yeah, it just gotta
keep an eye on him kind of thing.

00:21:39.160 --> 00:21:39.220
Yeah.

00:21:39.880 --> 00:21:43.660
Rupert Isaacson: Why do you think, why
do you think his eating has been more

00:21:43.660 --> 00:21:45.580
manageable for you guys and for him?

00:21:46.660 --> 00:21:49.840
Amanda Atkins: I have no idea,
and I would never even begin to

00:21:49.840 --> 00:21:51.100
assume it's anything I've done.

00:21:51.100 --> 00:21:51.760
I really don't.

00:21:51.760 --> 00:21:52.600
I think it's genetic.

00:21:52.600 --> 00:21:57.580
I think there's like so much genetic,
just stuff about PWS that we don't,

00:21:58.540 --> 00:22:01.030
I even feel like, I've told my
husband this before, like, I don't

00:22:01.030 --> 00:22:03.760
even think hunger is the right word.

00:22:03.760 --> 00:22:05.110
I think it's an obsession.

00:22:05.110 --> 00:22:08.620
I don't, I think hunger is not the
right category for what they feel.

00:22:08.620 --> 00:22:11.080
I think it's perseveration obsession.

00:22:11.530 --> 00:22:12.250
I could be wrong.

00:22:12.250 --> 00:22:12.260
Mm-hmm.

00:22:12.370 --> 00:22:16.060
You know, other PWS families might
disagree, but with me it azure's not,

00:22:16.060 --> 00:22:19.690
it's like Azure has a fixation on it,
but he has a fixation on a lot of things.

00:22:20.905 --> 00:22:21.255
Rupert Isaacson: Sense.

00:22:21.280 --> 00:22:22.495
What are his fixations?

00:22:22.720 --> 00:22:22.930
Yeah.

00:22:23.200 --> 00:22:23.770
Amanda Atkins: Oh my gosh.

00:22:23.770 --> 00:22:26.980
Like certain TV shows
that he's obsessed with.

00:22:27.050 --> 00:22:29.780
The bus, he loves riding the
bus to school every morning.

00:22:29.780 --> 00:22:32.450
Like what time times, what
time is the bus coming?

00:22:32.450 --> 00:22:33.170
What time is this?

00:22:33.170 --> 00:22:33.705
What time is this?

00:22:34.385 --> 00:22:35.795
Very schedule oriented.

00:22:36.095 --> 00:22:37.805
Do I have speech therapy tomorrow night?

00:22:38.585 --> 00:22:38.975
Yeah.

00:22:39.275 --> 00:22:39.785
That kind of thing.

00:22:39.835 --> 00:22:42.115
Rupert Isaacson: What I, that,
that I, sure I get, but I'm,

00:22:42.115 --> 00:22:46.125
I'm going more for what, what's,
what is passionate interests?

00:22:46.125 --> 00:22:47.535
What are the things that, oh, passionate

00:22:47.535 --> 00:22:48.315
Amanda Atkins: interests.

00:22:49.035 --> 00:22:50.745
He loves Zoom calls.

00:22:50.925 --> 00:22:53.865
Like, you know, he loves scheduling
Zoom calls and doing them.

00:22:53.955 --> 00:22:55.125
Honestly, that's probably his.

00:22:55.575 --> 00:22:58.815
He has these two friends,
Clara and Elle course.

00:22:58.815 --> 00:22:59.385
They're like girls.

00:22:59.805 --> 00:23:02.895
And he loves doing Zoom calls.

00:23:02.895 --> 00:23:06.015
That's his favorite thing, to send them
the link and then have them get on it.

00:23:06.015 --> 00:23:06.645
And then just, and

00:23:07.545 --> 00:23:08.955
Rupert Isaacson: are they,
are they special needs as well

00:23:08.955 --> 00:23:10.005
or are they No, they're not.

00:23:10.935 --> 00:23:11.835
Amanda Atkins: They're neurotypical.

00:23:12.015 --> 00:23:16.125
Rupert Isaacson: And then will he
talk once he's on the call with them,

00:23:16.125 --> 00:23:21.165
will he talk over and over about the
same thing, or is it actually pretty

00:23:21.165 --> 00:23:22.695
much a back and forth conversation?

00:23:22.695 --> 00:23:25.515
Will he ask about them or
is he talking about himself?

00:23:26.145 --> 00:23:29.055
Amanda Atkins: I'm really trying
to get him every time we do a Zoom

00:23:29.055 --> 00:23:31.815
saying, Hey, let's come up with three
questions we can ask ahead of time.

00:23:31.995 --> 00:23:34.635
Because it's otherwise, it's
really is just kind of one way.

00:23:34.635 --> 00:23:38.265
And I like the, like social,
like butterfly in me just

00:23:38.265 --> 00:23:39.045
wants to be like, do it.

00:23:39.045 --> 00:23:40.605
But then I'm trying to
be like, he loves it.

00:23:40.605 --> 00:23:41.565
Let him do his thing.

00:23:41.565 --> 00:23:42.165
It's okay.

00:23:42.165 --> 00:23:42.675
You know?

00:23:43.515 --> 00:23:47.895
Rupert Isaacson: And when he's talking
to these girls about himself Yeah.

00:23:47.925 --> 00:23:50.775
What, what is he relating,
what's he talking about?

00:23:50.985 --> 00:23:54.355
Amanda Atkins: He's saying like, have
you ever seen the show Big Bang Theory

00:23:54.895 --> 00:23:54.955
Rupert Isaacson: Y?

00:23:55.195 --> 00:23:57.145
No, but I have seen Young Sheldon, so,

00:23:57.535 --> 00:23:58.765
Amanda Atkins: oh, it's Young Sheldon.

00:23:58.765 --> 00:23:59.995
That's the show I'm talking about.

00:23:59.995 --> 00:24:00.325
Oh my gosh.

00:24:00.325 --> 00:24:02.275
Asher is, I was gonna
say it's the spinoff.

00:24:02.275 --> 00:24:03.445
Most people don't know young Sheldon.

00:24:03.445 --> 00:24:03.595
Yeah.

00:24:03.715 --> 00:24:06.385
Asher is obsessed with young Sheldon.

00:24:06.445 --> 00:24:07.075
It's like, okay,

00:24:07.075 --> 00:24:08.785
Rupert Isaacson: well that's kind
of a good thing to be obsessed by.

00:24:08.875 --> 00:24:09.025
Yeah,

00:24:09.055 --> 00:24:09.415
Amanda Atkins: it is.

00:24:09.415 --> 00:24:09.985
Exactly.

00:24:10.015 --> 00:24:10.675
Yeah, exactly.

00:24:10.675 --> 00:24:14.515
So he watches it, well, it's over now,
but he watched it, you know, and he

00:24:14.515 --> 00:24:19.345
watches reruns and now he watches the
George and Mandy the like spinoff of it.

00:24:19.345 --> 00:24:22.505
There's like another spinoff of
young Sheldon that he watches.

00:24:22.505 --> 00:24:25.235
And so he, one of his friends has
also started watching the show.

00:24:25.235 --> 00:24:26.405
So that's what they talk about.

00:24:26.585 --> 00:24:27.845
Rupert Isaacson: Who
were George and Mandy on?

00:24:27.845 --> 00:24:28.595
Young Sheldon George

00:24:28.595 --> 00:24:31.055
Amanda Atkins: and Mandy
is, it's Sheldon's brother.

00:24:31.325 --> 00:24:31.865
Okay.

00:24:31.870 --> 00:24:31.960
The,

00:24:31.960 --> 00:24:33.485
Rupert Isaacson: the rocket
brother and the girlfriend Mandy.

00:24:33.905 --> 00:24:34.295
Okay.

00:24:34.385 --> 00:24:35.195
Ah, okay.

00:24:35.195 --> 00:24:35.255
Yeah.

00:24:36.245 --> 00:24:36.395
Alright.

00:24:36.395 --> 00:24:36.545
Who's now

00:24:36.680 --> 00:24:37.120
Amanda Atkins: a spinoff?

00:24:37.780 --> 00:24:38.860
Rupert Isaacson: You know,
I could see that though.

00:24:38.860 --> 00:24:42.310
'cause we went through, like as
a family this summer, a whole

00:24:43.780 --> 00:24:48.550
like two months of watching Young
Sheldon and I was watching it with

00:24:48.550 --> 00:24:50.180
my two younger kids and they, yeah.

00:24:50.725 --> 00:24:55.105
They were learning so much about
American life through that show.

00:24:55.345 --> 00:24:56.275
Amanda Atkins: Oh really?

00:24:56.275 --> 00:24:56.485
Yeah.

00:24:56.485 --> 00:24:56.755
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:24:56.755 --> 00:24:57.595
So I, you know, oh.

00:24:57.595 --> 00:24:57.775
'cause

00:24:57.775 --> 00:24:59.485
Amanda Atkins: it's like,
yeah, that shows to me that,

00:24:59.560 --> 00:25:02.935
Rupert Isaacson: that Asha
has quite good discernment.

00:25:03.175 --> 00:25:04.735
Yeah, because it's a
very philosophical show.

00:25:04.735 --> 00:25:04.825
Yes.

00:25:05.545 --> 00:25:07.765
Does he get that he sort
of is young children?

00:25:08.815 --> 00:25:09.445
Amanda Atkins: I don't know.

00:25:09.445 --> 00:25:10.405
That's what I've always wondered.

00:25:10.405 --> 00:25:12.115
I'm like, is that why he's drawn to it?

00:25:12.115 --> 00:25:14.100
Because Sheldon, you know, I don't know.

00:25:14.120 --> 00:25:14.340
He

00:25:14.340 --> 00:25:15.595
Rupert Isaacson: doesn't,
he doesn't articulate that.

00:25:15.925 --> 00:25:17.185
Amanda Atkins: He doesn't
seem to articulate it, but

00:25:17.185 --> 00:25:18.385
I do wonder that as well.

00:25:18.415 --> 00:25:18.805
Yeah.

00:25:20.125 --> 00:25:22.975
Rupert Isaacson: And then how did he make
these two friends, these two girlfriends,

00:25:23.815 --> 00:25:26.585
Amanda Atkins: they're friends from
grade school and they've just you know,

00:25:26.585 --> 00:25:30.755
there was like a, like a Best Buddies
program, so like where the regular

00:25:30.755 --> 00:25:34.535
ed kids were connected with the kids
in special ed and they just connected

00:25:34.535 --> 00:25:35.885
through that and he stayed in touch.

00:25:35.885 --> 00:25:38.555
They go to different schools now,
but they, they've all stayed in

00:25:38.555 --> 00:25:39.575
touch and they just really sweet.

00:25:40.085 --> 00:25:41.675
Yeah, they're super sweet girls.

00:25:41.675 --> 00:25:42.165
Yeah, yeah.

00:25:42.245 --> 00:25:42.425
Yeah.

00:25:42.425 --> 00:25:42.815
Awesome.

00:25:42.845 --> 00:25:43.925
Rupert Isaacson: That's unusual.

00:25:44.135 --> 00:25:44.195
Yeah.

00:25:44.195 --> 00:25:47.765
'cause my son, when he went off to high
school, you know, we, we homeschooled for

00:25:48.065 --> 00:25:51.455
about 10 years and then he went off for
his last two, three years into high school

00:25:51.935 --> 00:25:53.915
and there was a Best Buddies program.

00:25:53.915 --> 00:25:59.675
But I wouldn't say that the people
who were in that really, I mean,

00:25:59.675 --> 00:26:00.695
how could they follow through?

00:26:00.695 --> 00:26:01.745
They were young as well.

00:26:02.045 --> 00:26:02.345
Right, right.

00:26:02.945 --> 00:26:05.685
You would said he wouldn't put
any judgements on that, but I'm

00:26:05.685 --> 00:26:08.715
impressed that these, yeah, so
he must have a lot of charm.

00:26:09.825 --> 00:26:11.595
Amanda Atkins: He really
does have a lot of charm.

00:26:11.595 --> 00:26:13.635
And he's very, he's funny.

00:26:13.635 --> 00:26:14.700
He's super funny.

00:26:14.700 --> 00:26:16.305
He has a great sense of humor.

00:26:17.430 --> 00:26:18.600
He's a funny, can you gimme an

00:26:18.600 --> 00:26:18.930
Rupert Isaacson: example?

00:26:20.040 --> 00:26:20.940
Amanda Atkins: Oh my gosh.

00:26:20.940 --> 00:26:24.840
It's all gonna be so embarrassing to me
because it's all directed towards me.

00:26:24.840 --> 00:26:29.490
But like yesterday we were, we were out
somewhere and he saw, and we were with a

00:26:29.490 --> 00:26:33.090
big group of people and he saw Chipotle,
you know the restaurant Chipotle?

00:26:33.090 --> 00:26:33.210
Yeah.

00:26:33.210 --> 00:26:33.690
Yeah.

00:26:33.930 --> 00:26:35.905
And he looks at me and we're
with this big group pee.

00:26:35.940 --> 00:26:41.910
And he goes, mom, whenever you eat
Chipotle, you fart in front of this big.

00:26:41.910 --> 00:26:45.270
And then he's laughing and pointing
at me, and I'm just like, Asher,

00:26:45.270 --> 00:26:48.690
can you, like, we're in p Can you,
you know, like he just knows how to

00:26:48.690 --> 00:26:52.950
like, make fun of me and loves like,
kind of like the, you know, like,

00:26:53.100 --> 00:26:54.720
yeah, mom makes you fart, doesn't it?

00:26:54.720 --> 00:26:57.150
Like, it's just like, oh,
why did I ever tell you that?

00:26:57.570 --> 00:27:02.430
Rupert Isaacson: But that means that
the autistic side of his Prada vili,

00:27:02.430 --> 00:27:06.090
because again, for those listeners
and viewers who don't know Prada

00:27:06.090 --> 00:27:08.080
Vili, it comes with cognitive yep.

00:27:08.890 --> 00:27:11.200
Let's say deficits as well.

00:27:11.450 --> 00:27:13.190
But these are on a huge spectrum.

00:27:13.640 --> 00:27:13.790
Amanda Atkins: Yes.

00:27:13.870 --> 00:27:17.980
Rupert Isaacson: And, but if he is making
those jokes at your expense, that shows

00:27:17.980 --> 00:27:23.290
that he has a sense of perspective,
theory of mind and irony, which is

00:27:23.290 --> 00:27:25.180
putting him like way on the upper scale.

00:27:25.180 --> 00:27:25.300
That's

00:27:25.900 --> 00:27:26.380
Amanda Atkins: right.

00:27:26.690 --> 00:27:26.860
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,

00:27:26.860 --> 00:27:27.620
Amanda Atkins: that's such a good point.

00:27:27.720 --> 00:27:28.060
If you

00:27:28.060 --> 00:27:32.265
Rupert Isaacson: get, if a kid, if
somebody teases you, it means that they

00:27:32.265 --> 00:27:36.525
have gone through that crucial milestone
of theory of mind and false belief.

00:27:36.525 --> 00:27:41.235
And again, for listeners who don't know
that what that is is this is, and this

00:27:41.235 --> 00:27:45.625
is a bit of a holy grail if you're sort
of an autism parent that in neurotypical

00:27:45.625 --> 00:27:50.725
kids, somewhere around two and a half to
three, let's say your kid is loves horses

00:27:50.725 --> 00:27:55.075
and is looking at a magazine with a horse
picture and it goes, look, mommy a horsey.

00:27:55.075 --> 00:27:56.995
And they hold it up, but
they're looking at it.

00:27:57.595 --> 00:27:59.875
They sort of think you can see what
they see even though they can't.

00:28:00.385 --> 00:28:02.485
And then somewhere around
two and a half to three.

00:28:03.010 --> 00:28:05.440
The brain will go through this
development called theory of Mind and

00:28:05.440 --> 00:28:08.710
false Belief where they'll turn it
around and go, look, mommy a horsey.

00:28:08.710 --> 00:28:11.020
They know that you see something
different to what they see.

00:28:11.500 --> 00:28:16.240
And we, in the work that we do with Horse
Boy Method and Movement Method, have all

00:28:16.240 --> 00:28:20.500
these methods for kind of kick starting
theory of mind because we've realized that

00:28:20.500 --> 00:28:26.500
if you can help someone who is challenged
with that, through that milestone, then

00:28:26.980 --> 00:28:34.090
the neuroplasticity really opens up and
their brain kind of starts to kind of

00:28:34.240 --> 00:28:36.370
get more and more neurotypical esque.

00:28:36.700 --> 00:28:40.150
And it sounds like you are, even if
they've had quite a, quite a severe

00:28:40.150 --> 00:28:41.710
start, nonverbal, all of that.

00:28:42.100 --> 00:28:44.230
So it, it sounds like Asher's
really gone through that.

00:28:44.330 --> 00:28:46.580
Was there a time when he
didn't have that, do you think?

00:28:46.820 --> 00:28:49.040
Can you discern when that shift happened?

00:28:50.240 --> 00:28:52.970
Amanda Atkins: It feels like, you
know, it took him a long time to be.

00:28:52.970 --> 00:28:56.410
He has, he also has apraxia of
speech, so there's a lot of like

00:28:56.410 --> 00:28:57.940
speech stuff going on with him.

00:28:58.020 --> 00:28:58.620
And.

00:28:59.400 --> 00:29:02.790
I think some of it was when he was able to
actually art, like the difference of when

00:29:02.790 --> 00:29:06.120
he could articulate words versus when he
couldn't, you know, I feel like he wasn't

00:29:06.120 --> 00:29:10.710
really able to talk to where we could
understand him until maybe five or six.

00:29:10.710 --> 00:29:13.590
And then probably like 7, 8,
9, he started to be able to put

00:29:13.590 --> 00:29:15.540
together a few more complex ideas.

00:29:15.640 --> 00:29:20.230
He's always been a funny kid that, that,
that likes humor and likes teasing.

00:29:20.290 --> 00:29:24.430
I would say even before he wa
he was very playful and liked

00:29:24.430 --> 00:29:25.540
to tease and that kind of thing.

00:29:25.540 --> 00:29:28.450
And probably 'cause it's a lot of,
you know, our energy in the house.

00:29:28.450 --> 00:29:32.360
We ha we have a very
silly, funny household.

00:29:32.360 --> 00:29:36.650
But I feel like maybe when, let's say
when he was probably nine or 10, I would

00:29:36.650 --> 00:29:41.930
say maybe he was able to start like
making more like directed kind of like

00:29:41.930 --> 00:29:43.640
jokes and teasing and that kind of thing.

00:29:43.910 --> 00:29:44.330
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:29:44.630 --> 00:29:45.020
Yeah.

00:29:45.350 --> 00:29:48.590
I'm thinking about the proud of
Willie Kidd that I know best.

00:29:48.740 --> 00:29:48.770
Amanda Atkins: Mm.

00:29:48.770 --> 00:29:48.800
He

00:29:49.460 --> 00:29:52.100
Rupert Isaacson: is a, a, a
child in Germany actually.

00:29:52.150 --> 00:29:54.300
And I met him when he was four.

00:29:55.100 --> 00:30:00.290
And he had the, he had quite a
severely autistic presentation,

00:30:00.500 --> 00:30:03.260
like Asher, he wasn't fat.

00:30:03.320 --> 00:30:03.950
He

00:30:04.100 --> 00:30:04.550
Amanda Atkins: yeah,

00:30:04.670 --> 00:30:08.540
Rupert Isaacson: he was quite skinny kid,
productive, two tall, skinny parents.

00:30:08.540 --> 00:30:14.090
However, they also, like you were
saying, manage it very, very carefully.

00:30:14.480 --> 00:30:14.810
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

00:30:14.990 --> 00:30:17.570
Rupert Isaacson: And it's very tough
in, in Germany 'cause Germany's

00:30:17.570 --> 00:30:20.000
a, a very sugar friendly culture.

00:30:20.120 --> 00:30:20.810
Amanda Atkins: Oh, interesting.

00:30:20.810 --> 00:30:21.290
Yeah.

00:30:21.290 --> 00:30:21.300
Yeah.

00:30:21.300 --> 00:30:21.380
And

00:30:21.380 --> 00:30:23.180
Rupert Isaacson: baked goods and
that sort of, and it's a way that

00:30:23.180 --> 00:30:24.410
people show love and affection.

00:30:24.410 --> 00:30:25.130
It's by giving.

00:30:25.310 --> 00:30:25.550
That's right.

00:30:25.940 --> 00:30:27.350
So it's, it's very tough.

00:30:27.450 --> 00:30:31.890
And he's had a very tough time
in school and so on, but I was

00:30:31.890 --> 00:30:35.400
doing equine therapy with him and
he was heading for hospital to.

00:30:35.730 --> 00:30:37.500
Have his hips opened up.

00:30:37.530 --> 00:30:37.620
Mm-hmm.

00:30:37.620 --> 00:30:38.820
He had, yeah.

00:30:38.820 --> 00:30:42.030
Again, for those listeners that are
unfamiliar, there can be all these

00:30:42.030 --> 00:30:45.510
physical things that go with Prada
as well, including sort of very

00:30:45.510 --> 00:30:47.100
tight mouthful, hips, et cetera.

00:30:47.520 --> 00:30:52.139
And he threw all the time on the
horse didn't need the surgery.

00:30:52.170 --> 00:30:54.270
And the doctor's like, what,
what are you guys doing?

00:30:54.270 --> 00:30:55.770
Something's you've done something.

00:30:55.770 --> 00:30:57.210
And they said, well, we've
been doing this horse thing.

00:30:57.210 --> 00:30:58.980
And well, it, it worked for him.

00:30:59.550 --> 00:31:06.090
And because he could then hang out at
the barn, there were other kids and

00:31:06.150 --> 00:31:10.830
he went from being a very isolated
kid to a somewhat socialized kid.

00:31:11.070 --> 00:31:14.610
And now the last time I met him,
I was like, wow, you are, wow.

00:31:14.610 --> 00:31:16.110
You're actually really doing quite well.

00:31:16.110 --> 00:31:17.520
And he was starting to do that.

00:31:17.520 --> 00:31:19.320
He's, he's, he's about 10 now.

00:31:19.379 --> 00:31:19.800
11.

00:31:20.040 --> 00:31:20.280
Okay.

00:31:20.280 --> 00:31:22.110
Also starting to tease me a bit and

00:31:22.315 --> 00:31:22.605
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

00:31:22.610 --> 00:31:22.950
Yeah.

00:31:23.040 --> 00:31:24.420
Rupert Isaacson: I was like,
Ooh, this is a good sign.

00:31:24.990 --> 00:31:25.230
Amanda Atkins: I love that.

00:31:25.230 --> 00:31:25.590
So

00:31:26.580 --> 00:31:30.000
Rupert Isaacson: would you say,
you know, I, I've, I've, I've read.

00:31:30.975 --> 00:31:35.595
Some of those parts of your book where
you talk about the early overwhelm

00:31:35.595 --> 00:31:36.735
because he was very premature.

00:31:36.764 --> 00:31:36.855
Mm-hmm.

00:31:37.365 --> 00:31:41.145
You know, he was in the ICU, you
were disenfranchised as a mum because

00:31:41.325 --> 00:31:41.475
Amanda Atkins: mm-hmm.

00:31:41.715 --> 00:31:43.274
Rupert Isaacson: You know, you
couldn't care for your kid.

00:31:43.685 --> 00:31:45.215
You didn't know if he was gonna make it.

00:31:45.784 --> 00:31:49.955
Then he makes it, but now he's got
this fucking thing and you realize

00:31:49.955 --> 00:31:53.945
this thing is gonna put a boot
through your forehead, you know?

00:31:54.004 --> 00:31:54.304
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

00:31:54.485 --> 00:31:56.764
Rupert Isaacson: And your husband's
forehead and everything else.

00:31:57.094 --> 00:32:00.064
Do you still feel that sense,
same sense of overwhelm?

00:32:00.784 --> 00:32:02.974
Or are you through that, do you think?

00:32:03.604 --> 00:32:04.084
Or do you think

00:32:04.084 --> 00:32:04.954
Amanda Atkins: I think I through it.

00:32:06.064 --> 00:32:08.104
I really do think I'm
through it at this point.

00:32:08.374 --> 00:32:09.754
I mean, it comes and goes, right?

00:32:09.754 --> 00:32:13.234
Like there's different, I have
different levels of fear, you know,

00:32:13.234 --> 00:32:16.084
I think about the future, like what's
the future gonna look like for him?

00:32:16.204 --> 00:32:16.354
Yeah.

00:32:16.684 --> 00:32:18.334
What's it gonna look like for our family?

00:32:19.145 --> 00:32:23.554
But I do have a more of a sense of
like, stability now than I used to.

00:32:23.554 --> 00:32:28.655
Like I, I feel, and maybe it's because
I'm rooted in my career and who I

00:32:28.655 --> 00:32:31.475
am, you know, I'm not, I'm not in my
twenties now, I'm in my forties now.

00:32:31.475 --> 00:32:35.165
You know, it feels more, I feel
more rooted as a person as well.

00:32:35.524 --> 00:32:39.004
And have seen a little bit how
life has shaken out a little bit.

00:32:39.004 --> 00:32:40.955
You know, there's still
lots of unknowns, but

00:32:41.375 --> 00:32:44.195
Rupert Isaacson: What do you think
will be his future long term?

00:32:44.195 --> 00:32:45.780
Amanda Atkins: I do
think after you are dead,

00:32:45.780 --> 00:32:46.300
Rupert Isaacson: basically.

00:32:46.649 --> 00:32:46.940
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

00:32:46.940 --> 00:32:47.180
Yeah.

00:32:47.555 --> 00:32:52.325
I think our, the plan is to, to
have him in, in a residential home.

00:32:52.864 --> 00:32:57.155
Maybe to start a residential
home for some people with PWS.

00:32:57.155 --> 00:32:57.395
Yeah.

00:32:57.395 --> 00:33:00.635
I think that's sort of where,
that would be the ideal.

00:33:00.635 --> 00:33:05.885
There's enough people in the Chicago
community with kids about Asher's age that

00:33:05.885 --> 00:33:06.920
will need more, to be perfectly honest.

00:33:07.100 --> 00:33:08.225
Rupert Isaacson: You're
gonna have to do that.

00:33:08.735 --> 00:33:10.534
Amanda Atkins: That's
seems what it seems like.

00:33:10.534 --> 00:33:10.955
Right.

00:33:11.405 --> 00:33:15.455
Rupert Isaacson: And do you, do you feel a
sense of relief that he now has siblings?

00:33:17.089 --> 00:33:21.109
Amanda Atkins: I do, but also
I'm so hyper aware of not putting

00:33:21.439 --> 00:33:23.270
expectations that like I don't

00:33:23.569 --> 00:33:23.779
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:33:23.779 --> 00:33:24.709
But so worry about that.

00:33:24.799 --> 00:33:26.959
If he didn't have 'em, he'd be Yes.

00:33:27.169 --> 00:33:28.100
All by himself.

00:33:28.105 --> 00:33:28.115
Yes.

00:33:28.574 --> 00:33:29.074
And yes.

00:33:29.080 --> 00:33:29.899
Amanda Atkins: Yes, yes.

00:33:29.899 --> 00:33:31.489
Rupert Isaacson: De if he's
got people who've got his back,

00:33:32.000 --> 00:33:32.480
Amanda Atkins: yes.

00:33:32.480 --> 00:33:32.540
De

00:33:32.599 --> 00:33:35.309
Rupert Isaacson: This does make a
huge difference, you know, I asked

00:33:35.309 --> 00:33:38.009
these questions because these were
the things that went through my mind

00:33:38.039 --> 00:33:46.659
and when my son was, you know, right
up until 13, he didn't have siblings.

00:33:46.864 --> 00:33:47.154
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

00:33:47.209 --> 00:33:48.499
Rupert Isaacson: And this
kept me awake at night.

00:33:49.939 --> 00:33:51.589
Amanda Atkins: So are his
siblings full siblings?

00:33:51.589 --> 00:33:51.889
Or half?

00:33:51.894 --> 00:33:52.849
Rupert Isaacson: No,
they're half siblings.

00:33:53.219 --> 00:33:53.399
Did that

00:33:53.399 --> 00:33:55.829
Amanda Atkins: bother you at all or
did that feel any different way or No?

00:33:56.249 --> 00:33:56.759
Rupert Isaacson: No.

00:33:56.759 --> 00:33:56.999
No.

00:33:56.999 --> 00:34:00.989
And in fact, in some ways it
worked out beautifully because we

00:34:00.989 --> 00:34:05.799
couldn't have coped his mom and I
in those early years because his.

00:34:06.909 --> 00:34:10.419
Anyway, we were later parents, so
she wasn't gonna have another child.

00:34:10.719 --> 00:34:10.779
Amanda Atkins: Mm.

00:34:10.829 --> 00:34:16.719
Rupert Isaacson: But it was so severe, it
was so all encompassing that we couldn't

00:34:16.719 --> 00:34:18.009
have, we just couldn't have done it.

00:34:18.009 --> 00:34:18.069
Yeah.

00:34:18.519 --> 00:34:27.609
So, then when he ended up with
siblings at 13, there was this part

00:34:27.609 --> 00:34:31.779
of me that went, oh, that's beautiful
because he's had his childhood.

00:34:32.859 --> 00:34:32.949
Amanda Atkins: Mm.

00:34:33.369 --> 00:34:37.599
Rupert Isaacson: You know, now
he will have siblings who are

00:34:38.229 --> 00:34:40.149
like half a generation younger.

00:34:40.659 --> 00:34:40.749
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

00:34:40.749 --> 00:34:41.019
So when

00:34:41.019 --> 00:34:43.089
Rupert Isaacson: he's 80, they'll be 65.

00:34:43.509 --> 00:34:43.989
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

00:34:43.989 --> 00:34:44.229
Right.

00:34:44.229 --> 00:34:44.379
You know,

00:34:44.649 --> 00:34:47.919
Rupert Isaacson: that's, that
does give me a sense of Wow.

00:34:48.559 --> 00:34:49.009
Yeah.

00:34:49.009 --> 00:34:53.709
After I die there will be
people who have the stamina.

00:34:54.699 --> 00:34:55.394
Amanda Atkins: Yeah, that's right.

00:34:55.494 --> 00:34:55.714
No,

00:34:55.719 --> 00:34:57.909
Rupert Isaacson: I mean,
he's very, very independent.

00:34:57.979 --> 00:34:58.219
Amanda Atkins: Yeah, he

00:35:00.319 --> 00:35:02.474
Rupert Isaacson: just sold his
house last year and he got his own.

00:35:02.534 --> 00:35:02.754
Oh,

00:35:02.754 --> 00:35:03.034
Amanda Atkins: that's awesome.

00:35:03.614 --> 00:35:07.249
Rupert Isaacson: He lives between
Europe and America and he has three

00:35:07.249 --> 00:35:10.339
jobs and he, you know, but he's still
very, very vulnerable in many ways.

00:35:10.399 --> 00:35:11.149
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

00:35:11.239 --> 00:35:13.909
Rupert Isaacson: He's someone that
does rely upon community support.

00:35:13.909 --> 00:35:17.449
But when I was also, you know, you
said he'll probably go into group home

00:35:17.449 --> 00:35:20.809
and then from there you went, we'll
probably have to do the group home.

00:35:21.019 --> 00:35:21.499
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

00:35:21.649 --> 00:35:21.799
Yeah.

00:35:21.954 --> 00:35:27.659
Rupert Isaacson: I, I, I got, so what
I often advise people on when I'm

00:35:27.659 --> 00:35:31.319
consulting with people on special needs
staff is saying you are either going to

00:35:31.559 --> 00:35:34.019
be a service user or a service provider.

00:35:34.679 --> 00:35:34.859
Amanda Atkins: Mm.

00:35:34.859 --> 00:35:34.949
You're

00:35:35.129 --> 00:35:37.319
Rupert Isaacson: either going
to be a consumer of services

00:35:37.319 --> 00:35:38.309
or you're going to mm-hmm.

00:35:38.549 --> 00:35:39.869
Learn how to be the service.

00:35:39.874 --> 00:35:40.254
Mm-hmm.

00:35:40.334 --> 00:35:42.779
But you will be in that sphere.

00:35:43.469 --> 00:35:43.859
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

00:35:44.279 --> 00:35:47.129
Rupert Isaacson: So it's up to
you which one is it going to be?

00:35:47.699 --> 00:35:48.059
Amanda Atkins: That's right.

00:35:48.109 --> 00:35:51.409
Rupert Isaacson: And for some people, they
definitely would rather be a service user.

00:35:52.129 --> 00:35:52.339
Amanda Atkins: Mm.

00:35:53.239 --> 00:35:56.149
Rupert Isaacson: Maybe it's 'cause I'm a
control freak, but if there's a service,

00:35:56.149 --> 00:35:57.709
I want to be the service, you know?

00:35:57.769 --> 00:35:58.009
Yeah.

00:35:58.009 --> 00:35:58.309
Amanda Atkins: Same.

00:35:58.969 --> 00:36:02.179
Rupert Isaacson: So the, the, within
this world of horse boy movement

00:36:02.179 --> 00:36:08.359
method, there's many parents like me
and like you who have done just that.

00:36:08.669 --> 00:36:08.679
Yeah.

00:36:08.939 --> 00:36:13.709
And we are a whole network and each of us
does it rather differently because each

00:36:13.709 --> 00:36:17.309
of our children was a different context.

00:36:17.339 --> 00:36:17.429
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.

00:36:17.919 --> 00:36:22.359
Rupert Isaacson: But we all help
each other and are part of an

00:36:22.359 --> 00:36:28.029
organization that can source funding
and that sort of, but this has all

00:36:28.029 --> 00:36:30.609
happened organically over 15 years.

00:36:30.609 --> 00:36:31.744
Of course, because Yeah,

00:36:31.749 --> 00:36:32.499
Amanda Atkins: because they had to.

00:36:32.499 --> 00:36:32.679
Right?

00:36:32.679 --> 00:36:33.129
Because it had to.

00:36:33.134 --> 00:36:33.824
Because they had to, to,

00:36:33.969 --> 00:36:34.059
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

00:36:34.059 --> 00:36:35.529
So what are your plans?

00:36:35.529 --> 00:36:41.709
What do you envisage this home,
this community looking like and

00:36:42.339 --> 00:36:44.499
what's gonna be your role and
what's gonna be your husband's?

00:36:44.499 --> 00:36:46.479
I haven't even asked you about
your husband does, by the way.

00:36:47.079 --> 00:36:48.399
What does he do and Yeah,

00:36:48.759 --> 00:36:50.679
Amanda Atkins: he is an
accountant, so, okay.

00:36:50.769 --> 00:36:51.519
Money Sandy.

00:36:52.074 --> 00:36:52.614
Which is great.

00:36:52.644 --> 00:36:52.854
Yeah.

00:36:52.854 --> 00:36:53.274
So can do,

00:36:53.814 --> 00:36:54.084
Rupert Isaacson: you can

00:36:54.084 --> 00:36:55.584
Amanda Atkins: do all the,
the total opposite of that.

00:36:55.614 --> 00:36:55.854
Yes.

00:36:55.884 --> 00:36:56.184
Yeah.

00:36:56.244 --> 00:36:59.339
I like to spend and I
like feelings, so Yeah.

00:37:00.559 --> 00:37:01.069
So it works

00:37:03.559 --> 00:37:05.929
because you not like feeling Right.

00:37:06.229 --> 00:37:06.859
Exactly.

00:37:07.369 --> 00:37:07.909
It's a win-win.

00:37:07.959 --> 00:37:11.499
I dunno, I think for me the biggest
thing is just simply safety.

00:37:11.499 --> 00:37:13.539
Safety and like friendship.

00:37:13.539 --> 00:37:15.399
Like that's all I want him to have,
you know, that's feel what feels

00:37:15.399 --> 00:37:16.719
most important to me with him.

00:37:16.719 --> 00:37:21.219
And so food safety of course feels
important and I don't think you can find

00:37:21.219 --> 00:37:22.869
that in your average residential home.

00:37:22.869 --> 00:37:26.469
It's just such a unique thing to
PWS that it feels like that would

00:37:26.469 --> 00:37:29.019
have to be such a specialty of it.

00:37:29.019 --> 00:37:32.109
But, you know, it's important
to me that he gets outside.

00:37:32.109 --> 00:37:36.519
It's important to me that he's
moving his body, that he's around

00:37:36.519 --> 00:37:38.079
other people that care for him.

00:37:38.079 --> 00:37:39.779
Rupert Isaacson: Are you looking,
are you looking at precedent?

00:37:39.779 --> 00:37:41.519
Are you looking at
examples of other places?

00:37:41.879 --> 00:37:42.989
Amanda Atkins: Not yet.

00:37:43.229 --> 00:37:43.889
Should I be?

00:37:43.889 --> 00:37:44.699
I should be, huh?

00:37:44.789 --> 00:37:45.329
Rupert Isaacson: Oh yeah.

00:37:45.509 --> 00:37:46.114
You definitely

00:37:46.114 --> 00:37:46.354
Amanda Atkins: should be.

00:37:47.384 --> 00:37:48.524
Rupert Isaacson: But make it fun.

00:37:48.924 --> 00:37:49.494
Amanda Atkins: Yeah,

00:37:49.584 --> 00:37:50.934
Rupert Isaacson: I
could point you to some.

00:37:51.624 --> 00:37:51.774
Okay.

00:37:51.774 --> 00:37:56.514
And actually, if anyone is listening,
who's in this sort of position, one

00:37:56.514 --> 00:38:00.714
of the first things which I would
really encourage people to look

00:38:00.714 --> 00:38:02.094
at other Camp Hill communities.

00:38:02.694 --> 00:38:03.084
Amanda Atkins: Hmm.

00:38:03.304 --> 00:38:07.474
Rupert Isaacson: So Camp Hill is one
word, and they've been around for about

00:38:07.474 --> 00:38:09.154
a hundred years, since the twenties.

00:38:09.154 --> 00:38:10.744
But they're in, they're
all over the world.

00:38:10.744 --> 00:38:13.744
I think they're in 40 countries or more.

00:38:13.954 --> 00:38:17.344
And they are Steiner inspired.

00:38:17.974 --> 00:38:21.124
If people know who Rudolph Steiner was,
people have heard of Waldo schools.

00:38:21.574 --> 00:38:24.094
He was the guy that came
up with Waldo schools.

00:38:24.094 --> 00:38:27.834
He was also the guy that came up
with a, an early form of organic

00:38:27.834 --> 00:38:30.034
farming which is big in Germany.

00:38:30.034 --> 00:38:33.604
He came up with many cool things, but
he's mostly known for the Waldorf schools.

00:38:33.844 --> 00:38:40.654
But Camp Hill was sort of, inspired by
his approach, but people with special

00:38:40.654 --> 00:38:47.194
needs living in rural communities that are
safe havens and have their own economy.

00:38:47.644 --> 00:38:51.974
And when I was sort of looking at
the early stages of Horse Boy and

00:38:51.974 --> 00:38:56.474
knowing that some of these people
who I was training were gonna end up

00:38:56.474 --> 00:39:03.884
doing residential places, I often look
to that as a sort of a good working

00:39:03.884 --> 00:39:05.444
model that stood the test of time.

00:39:05.804 --> 00:39:09.224
And my, that was gonna be my, my
next question is, are you envisaging

00:39:09.224 --> 00:39:11.504
something that is rural or urban?

00:39:12.764 --> 00:39:15.524
Amanda Atkins: Well, you know, I live
in such an urban area in Chicago,

00:39:15.524 --> 00:39:19.064
so I do feel urban because I want
it to be somewhat close to me.

00:39:23.159 --> 00:39:23.489
Spots.

00:39:24.239 --> 00:39:24.689
Rupert Isaacson: Well,

00:39:24.689 --> 00:39:26.969
Amanda Atkins: if, if the
listener could see your face.

00:39:27.599 --> 00:39:27.609
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:39:27.779 --> 00:39:27.959
Yeah.

00:39:27.959 --> 00:39:28.409
Well they will.

00:39:28.409 --> 00:39:29.489
'cause it's on YouTube too.

00:39:29.539 --> 00:39:29.799
There you go.

00:39:29.799 --> 00:39:33.314
So warn you put some clothes on right.

00:39:36.439 --> 00:39:41.539
As you know, if you followed any of
my work, I'm an autism dad and we have

00:39:41.539 --> 00:39:48.099
a whole career before this podcast in
helping people with neurodivergence,

00:39:48.779 --> 00:39:50.999
either who are professionals in the field.

00:39:51.079 --> 00:39:51.919
Are you a therapist?

00:39:52.339 --> 00:39:53.609
Are you a caregiver?

00:39:53.999 --> 00:39:55.009
Are you a parent?

00:39:55.444 --> 00:39:57.474
Or are you somebody with neurodivergence?

00:39:58.914 --> 00:40:03.854
When my son, Rowan, was
diagnosed with autism in 2004,

00:40:03.894 --> 00:40:05.524
I really didn't know what to do.

00:40:05.724 --> 00:40:10.994
So I reached out for mentorship, and
I found it through an amazing adult

00:40:11.034 --> 00:40:13.834
autistic woman who's very famous, Dr.

00:40:13.984 --> 00:40:14.874
Temple Grandin.

00:40:15.074 --> 00:40:16.714
And she told me what to do.

00:40:16.764 --> 00:40:21.004
And it's been working so
amazingly for the last 20 years.

00:40:21.354 --> 00:40:25.804
That not only is my son basically
independent, but we've helped

00:40:26.064 --> 00:40:29.814
countless, countless thousands
of others reach the same goal.

00:40:30.154 --> 00:40:34.054
Working in schools, working at
home, working in therapy settings.

00:40:35.084 --> 00:40:39.524
If you would like to learn this
cutting edge, neuroscience backed

00:40:39.744 --> 00:40:41.784
approach, it's called Movement Method.

00:40:42.444 --> 00:40:45.802
You can learn it online, you
can learn it very, very simply.

00:40:45.802 --> 00:40:48.064
It's almost laughably simple.

00:40:49.004 --> 00:40:51.704
The important thing is to begin.

00:40:52.634 --> 00:40:55.784
Let yourself be mentored as I was by Dr.

00:40:55.784 --> 00:40:59.074
Grandin and see what results can follow.

00:41:00.104 --> 00:41:03.034
Go to this website, newtrailslearning.

00:41:05.304 --> 00:41:07.809
com Sign up as a gold member.

00:41:08.249 --> 00:41:11.139
Take the online movement method course.

00:41:11.629 --> 00:41:12.999
It's in 40 countries.

00:41:13.609 --> 00:41:15.669
Let us know how it goes for you.

00:41:15.869 --> 00:41:16.639
We really want to know.

00:41:16.649 --> 00:41:21.149
We really want to help people like
me, people like you, out there

00:41:21.499 --> 00:41:24.779
live their best life, to live
free, ride free, see what happens.

00:41:25.769 --> 00:41:27.479
Things tend to go better
if they're in the country.

00:41:27.869 --> 00:41:28.289
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

00:41:28.349 --> 00:41:31.339
Rupert Isaacson: Because nature
is the habitat that the human

00:41:31.819 --> 00:41:34.219
organism is supposed to be in.

00:41:34.264 --> 00:41:34.684
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.

00:41:34.879 --> 00:41:39.459
Rupert Isaacson: So when you have a
human organism that is impacted and

00:41:40.629 --> 00:41:45.744
requires easily, easily thrown off the

00:41:46.254 --> 00:41:46.674
Amanda Atkins: mm-hmm.

00:41:46.754 --> 00:41:46.874
Off

00:41:46.879 --> 00:41:51.519
Rupert Isaacson: kilter, the fewer bad
sensory triggers you can have, the better.

00:41:51.639 --> 00:41:52.269
Mm-hmm.

00:41:52.270 --> 00:41:52.280
Right?

00:41:52.329 --> 00:41:52.539
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.

00:41:52.779 --> 00:41:52.869
And

00:41:52.869 --> 00:41:54.159
Rupert Isaacson: then of
course there's vulnerability.

00:41:54.219 --> 00:41:57.189
You know, cities are dangerous
places on human terms.

00:41:57.249 --> 00:41:58.029
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.

00:41:58.059 --> 00:42:01.619
Rupert Isaacson: And, so I
definitely favor the rural.

00:42:01.829 --> 00:42:05.819
And then the other thing is, of course
you have cross species stuff as well, so

00:42:05.844 --> 00:42:06.264
Amanda Atkins: mm-hmm.

00:42:06.444 --> 00:42:06.864
Mm-hmm.

00:42:06.964 --> 00:42:08.794
Rupert Isaacson: People are always
happier actually when they're surrounded

00:42:08.794 --> 00:42:10.234
by animals and plants because mm-hmm.

00:42:10.474 --> 00:42:13.874
That is again, what our species
are supposed to do right.

00:42:14.894 --> 00:42:18.929
And as you know, sort of cities are
somewhat adult playgrounds, um mm-hmm.

00:42:19.304 --> 00:42:22.544
But they're redesigned for
neurotypical a adults with careers.

00:42:22.674 --> 00:42:23.124
Amanda Atkins: True.

00:42:23.129 --> 00:42:23.339
Yeah.

00:42:23.339 --> 00:42:23.814
Yeah, yeah.

00:42:23.904 --> 00:42:25.734
Rupert Isaacson: But, you know,
for kids or for people with special

00:42:25.734 --> 00:42:27.954
needs or whatever, you know,
they, they often don't go so well.

00:42:28.464 --> 00:42:32.364
But that doesn't mean that you necessarily
have to live in that community, but

00:42:32.364 --> 00:42:34.344
you might be its director, you know.

00:42:34.404 --> 00:42:35.394
Amanda Atkins: Right, right, right, right.

00:42:35.494 --> 00:42:40.564
Rupert Isaacson: And it's, you know, the
reason listeners why we met is through our

00:42:40.564 --> 00:42:45.004
mutual friendly Leanna Tank who's been on
the show's, who's one of my great heroes.

00:42:45.079 --> 00:42:45.499
Mm-hmm.

00:42:45.579 --> 00:42:47.259
And Leanna works in the group homes of.

00:42:48.469 --> 00:42:52.559
Michigan with a criminally
insane population, you know?

00:42:52.559 --> 00:42:52.619
Yeah.

00:42:52.619 --> 00:42:59.069
And really knows how the nervous system
in the brain really work together.

00:42:59.129 --> 00:43:00.869
And what sort of, what
works and what doesn't.

00:43:01.349 --> 00:43:07.589
But, you know, I know we strayed a
bit from your book, but the, this

00:43:07.589 --> 00:43:11.459
type of conversation for any parent
who's got special needs, these are

00:43:11.459 --> 00:43:12.959
the conversations one has to have.

00:43:13.589 --> 00:43:14.099
Amanda Atkins: That's right.

00:43:14.459 --> 00:43:17.849
Rupert Isaacson: And when I feel
that we are dealing with how do

00:43:17.849 --> 00:43:22.379
we handle more than we can handle
it's by coming up with solutions.

00:43:22.859 --> 00:43:23.399
That's right.

00:43:23.699 --> 00:43:27.119
You know, there, there is this kind
of thing within therapy of saying,

00:43:27.449 --> 00:43:28.859
well, don't go into fix it mode.

00:43:28.859 --> 00:43:29.339
You know, just.

00:43:29.924 --> 00:43:32.894
Tell me, you know, how hard
it's, but I can't do that.

00:43:32.954 --> 00:43:33.944
My That's right.

00:43:34.064 --> 00:43:36.224
Genetic is about fixing.

00:43:36.224 --> 00:43:37.844
And I, I've been in that situation.

00:43:37.844 --> 00:43:39.884
People say, well just sit with
your feelings for a while.

00:43:39.884 --> 00:43:42.674
I'm like, no, I'm gonna go out there.

00:43:42.674 --> 00:43:46.184
And, and that is how I sit
with my feelings, please.

00:43:46.244 --> 00:43:47.624
Well, and maybe, yeah.

00:43:47.629 --> 00:43:47.919
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

00:43:48.314 --> 00:43:53.144
And maybe, maybe you take action first
and then you can reflect on your feelings.

00:43:53.144 --> 00:43:53.654
Yeah, exactly.

00:43:53.654 --> 00:43:55.214
That is probably more the
reflection there somewhere.

00:43:55.544 --> 00:43:55.724
Yeah.

00:43:55.724 --> 00:43:57.494
But the action has to be there too.

00:43:57.494 --> 00:43:58.544
We have to, right.

00:43:58.754 --> 00:44:04.964
Rupert Isaacson: And I feel if I
don't start with action, then I am

00:44:04.964 --> 00:44:06.224
much more vulnerable to despair.

00:44:07.364 --> 00:44:07.934
Amanda Atkins: Yes.

00:44:08.084 --> 00:44:10.094
Rupert Isaacson: But I do know
that not everyone is like me.

00:44:10.604 --> 00:44:11.384
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.

00:44:11.435 --> 00:44:13.040
Rupert Isaacson: Do you, I
dunno if you ever saw that.

00:44:13.070 --> 00:44:19.070
There was a really funny skit came
out about 10 or 15 years ago, and

00:44:19.070 --> 00:44:21.390
it's a boyfriend and a girlfriend and.

00:44:22.535 --> 00:44:25.445
She's saying, I've got these
headaches, and she's got this nail

00:44:25.445 --> 00:44:26.945
sticking out of the front of her head.

00:44:27.545 --> 00:44:29.585
And her boyfriend says,
well, you've got a nail.

00:44:30.065 --> 00:44:31.175
Don't, don't try to fix it.

00:44:31.235 --> 00:44:34.535
Don't try to just, you know,
I just need you to be with me.

00:44:34.535 --> 00:44:36.695
I just need, and he's
like, completely confused.

00:44:36.815 --> 00:44:38.165
And then he gets it.

00:44:38.945 --> 00:44:42.695
He says, oh, that must be very hard.

00:44:43.625 --> 00:44:45.245
And she goes, and she
goes, yes, thank you.

00:44:45.305 --> 00:44:46.055
Yes it is.

00:44:46.295 --> 00:44:46.685
Yes it is.

00:44:46.685 --> 00:44:49.655
And then she turns ahead because she
bangs the nail on the thing goes, ow, ow.

00:44:49.655 --> 00:44:51.305
He goes, well, I could just say no.

00:44:51.305 --> 00:44:52.385
Stop trying to fix it.

00:44:54.965 --> 00:44:55.985
It's so good.

00:44:56.085 --> 00:44:58.695
But you, how do you dance that dance?

00:44:58.695 --> 00:45:02.955
Because, you know, you, you
are, there's, you personally.

00:45:03.495 --> 00:45:03.615
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.

00:45:03.855 --> 00:45:03.945
You

00:45:03.945 --> 00:45:05.985
Rupert Isaacson: writing that book
to some degree is taking action.

00:45:06.195 --> 00:45:09.855
You becoming a therapist
was taking action, right?

00:45:10.515 --> 00:45:12.105
Amanda Atkins: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:45:12.585 --> 00:45:15.255
Rupert Isaacson: Talk, just talk
to me about your relationship with.

00:45:16.935 --> 00:45:18.675
Action versus sitting with feelings.

00:45:18.675 --> 00:45:21.705
And how, how, how's that played
out for you and and how's it

00:45:21.705 --> 00:45:22.605
played out for your husband?

00:45:23.595 --> 00:45:27.855
Amanda Atkins: Yeah, I, I mean, I'm,
I'm a very action oriented person.

00:45:27.855 --> 00:45:28.215
You're right.

00:45:28.215 --> 00:45:31.005
Like writing the book came from
a place of being like, I feel

00:45:31.005 --> 00:45:33.315
like I have to do something.

00:45:33.315 --> 00:45:38.385
And everybody has like a different
degree of how comfortable they feel.

00:45:38.955 --> 00:45:39.975
Expressing emotion.

00:45:39.975 --> 00:45:43.305
Acknowledging emotion, you know,
like how you even started off

00:45:43.485 --> 00:45:46.635
our talk today, like asking about
almost like my, my family of origin.

00:45:46.635 --> 00:45:51.945
Like, you know, what is, how
were you taught to feel feelings?

00:45:51.975 --> 00:45:53.745
Were you taught to feel feelings?

00:45:53.895 --> 00:45:53.985
Mm-hmm.

00:45:54.225 --> 00:45:58.365
You know, were you taught that certain
feelings were safe and acceptable

00:45:58.365 --> 00:45:59.895
and certain feelings weren't?

00:46:00.375 --> 00:46:04.875
And you know, I think that's
the starting point for me.

00:46:04.875 --> 00:46:06.825
You know, you said you start with action.

00:46:07.035 --> 00:46:11.265
I tend to start with feelings
first, understand what I'm feeling.

00:46:11.595 --> 00:46:13.680
And it, for me, an
emotion is almost like a.

00:46:14.535 --> 00:46:16.125
It's almost like a sixth sense to me.

00:46:16.125 --> 00:46:20.205
Like an emotion helps inform me
on what action I need to take.

00:46:20.235 --> 00:46:24.285
Not everybody's wired that way, but for
me, if I'm feeling anger about something,

00:46:24.285 --> 00:46:28.095
that's generally a sign that something
feels unjust or that I feel wronged.

00:46:28.275 --> 00:46:32.385
And so that usually means I need to
do something to whether I need to

00:46:32.385 --> 00:46:33.645
talk to somebody or do something.

00:46:33.645 --> 00:46:37.665
Or maybe I just need to chill and,
you know, process it a little bit.

00:46:37.665 --> 00:46:42.135
But oftentimes my emotions
are like leaders for me.

00:46:42.195 --> 00:46:45.315
Maybe that's a, maybe that's not
such a good thing, but, but it is.

00:46:45.315 --> 00:46:49.065
And I try to have sound mind when I'm
making decisions about things, but I'm

00:46:49.065 --> 00:46:54.675
definitely an action oriented person,
but I tend to, my feelings tend to lead

00:46:54.675 --> 00:46:59.205
me or at least be more of a sixth sense
to tell me what action I need to take.

00:46:59.295 --> 00:46:59.505
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:46:59.505 --> 00:47:00.555
And I, I would say that's fair.

00:47:00.555 --> 00:47:01.095
To be honest.

00:47:01.095 --> 00:47:03.105
I'd, I'd say that that is me too.

00:47:03.465 --> 00:47:03.615
Amanda Atkins: Hmm.

00:47:03.615 --> 00:47:04.215
Rupert Isaacson: But it's,

00:47:06.315 --> 00:47:06.705
it.

00:47:08.940 --> 00:47:12.465
I, I feel that once I've identified
them, I want to, I want to do,

00:47:13.155 --> 00:47:15.165
because that in itself is therapeutic.

00:47:15.765 --> 00:47:17.055
Definitely is healing.

00:47:18.075 --> 00:47:18.555
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

00:47:18.585 --> 00:47:19.185
That makes sense.

00:47:19.185 --> 00:47:21.075
That I definitely, I feel the same way.

00:47:21.315 --> 00:47:25.785
And sometimes doing just means
going for a walk, going for a run.

00:47:25.785 --> 00:47:25.845
Yeah.

00:47:25.845 --> 00:47:31.815
Like sometimes doing doesn't mean, you
know, action, like advocacy, doing.

00:47:31.815 --> 00:47:34.335
So sometimes it's just like,
what do I need in, in the realm

00:47:34.335 --> 00:47:38.745
of like, whether it's self care,
just simply like living, you know?

00:47:39.195 --> 00:47:39.915
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

00:47:40.185 --> 00:47:40.785
It's interesting.

00:47:40.785 --> 00:47:40.995
Yeah.

00:47:40.995 --> 00:47:43.815
I mean, you know, I, I asked about
your son's passionate interests.

00:47:43.865 --> 00:47:45.965
I feel that when you're a
special needs parent, you

00:47:45.965 --> 00:47:47.285
really need to look at your own.

00:47:48.005 --> 00:47:48.155
Yes.

00:47:48.155 --> 00:47:49.715
'cause they will get you through.

00:47:50.355 --> 00:47:51.495
Obviously I like horses.

00:47:51.545 --> 00:47:52.065
So mm-hmm.

00:47:52.230 --> 00:47:58.775
If you put me around ponies, I tend to not
dwell on myself and just get rid of pony.

00:47:59.255 --> 00:48:00.335
That is therapeutic.

00:48:01.355 --> 00:48:03.725
Everyone hopefully has their thing.

00:48:04.335 --> 00:48:12.435
But to prioritize that thing, I feel
is of paramount importance when you are

00:48:12.435 --> 00:48:12.525
Amanda Atkins: mm-hmm.

00:48:13.215 --> 00:48:15.675
Rupert Isaacson: Being
called upon to find resources

00:48:16.185 --> 00:48:16.335
Amanda Atkins: mm-hmm.

00:48:16.605 --> 00:48:17.955
Rupert Isaacson: Greater than the norm.

00:48:17.955 --> 00:48:18.045
Mm-hmm.

00:48:18.585 --> 00:48:19.065
Amanda Atkins: Because

00:48:19.155 --> 00:48:21.885
Rupert Isaacson: some, you've got to
draw on those resources from somewhere.

00:48:22.425 --> 00:48:22.545
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.

00:48:22.790 --> 00:48:23.000
What is,

00:48:23.085 --> 00:48:24.975
Rupert Isaacson: what is putting
those resources into you?

00:48:25.215 --> 00:48:28.275
What puts the resources
into you as, as a mom?

00:48:28.275 --> 00:48:30.105
What, what are your passionate interests?

00:48:30.735 --> 00:48:32.265
Amanda Atkins: Well, I also love horses.

00:48:32.265 --> 00:48:35.565
Not as much, not I, not as, I'm
not as involved as you are, but

00:48:35.565 --> 00:48:38.175
I do, you know, if I can ever

00:48:38.565 --> 00:48:39.105
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, cool.

00:48:39.585 --> 00:48:40.880
Amanda Atkins: I do love
a horse with people.

00:48:40.965 --> 00:48:41.235
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:48:41.295 --> 00:48:41.535
Amanda Atkins: Yes.

00:48:41.535 --> 00:48:44.445
Whenever I, whenever I, you know,
living in the city, I have to drive

00:48:44.445 --> 00:48:45.765
a little bit to be around a horse.

00:48:45.795 --> 00:48:45.915
So

00:48:45.915 --> 00:48:47.745
Rupert Isaacson: this is a no brainer,
you're saying, well, I want to do

00:48:47.745 --> 00:48:52.665
a, a, a, a group home for my child
in the city, yet I love horses.

00:48:52.935 --> 00:48:53.445
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

00:48:53.925 --> 00:48:54.405
Rupert Isaacson: Dot, dot.

00:48:54.405 --> 00:48:54.645
I know.

00:48:55.435 --> 00:48:55.715
Amanda Atkins: I know.

00:48:56.115 --> 00:48:56.395
I know.

00:48:56.625 --> 00:48:57.515
It's like, okay, so,

00:48:57.750 --> 00:49:00.420
Rupert Isaacson: so do you, do you
make sure that you get out to spend

00:49:00.420 --> 00:49:02.160
time with horses as much as you can?

00:49:02.160 --> 00:49:04.440
Amanda Atkins: Yes, I do as much as I can.

00:49:04.440 --> 00:49:08.010
And, you know, some, I'm having a
hard day some days and I'm like,

00:49:08.010 --> 00:49:09.210
I just need to kiss a horse.

00:49:09.210 --> 00:49:10.380
I just need to kiss a horse.

00:49:10.380 --> 00:49:13.230
So, you know, do what I can
that weekend to make it happen.

00:49:13.340 --> 00:49:14.540
I love exercising.

00:49:14.540 --> 00:49:15.680
I love moving my body.

00:49:15.950 --> 00:49:19.640
I just recently bought like a, it's
not a Vespa, but like a Vespa, a little

00:49:19.760 --> 00:49:23.180
scooter that I like to scoot around
town, and that's been super fun for me.

00:49:23.450 --> 00:49:23.660
Yeah.

00:49:23.740 --> 00:49:28.090
You know, being with friends, listening
to music, writing, there's lots and

00:49:28.090 --> 00:49:29.620
lots of things that bring me joy.

00:49:30.400 --> 00:49:32.860
Rupert Isaacson: Well, that was the,
that was the word I was about to ask.

00:49:33.040 --> 00:49:34.450
It's joy and

00:49:34.480 --> 00:49:35.530
Amanda Atkins: Yeah, exactly.

00:49:35.650 --> 00:49:41.440
Rupert Isaacson: It, this is the most
important, the most important thing.

00:49:41.620 --> 00:49:43.030
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.

00:49:43.031 --> 00:49:43.041
Mm-hmm.

00:49:43.041 --> 00:49:43.085
And

00:49:43.600 --> 00:49:46.360
Rupert Isaacson: of course, when you
are in that early stage, I know you

00:49:46.360 --> 00:49:49.960
write about this in your book of how
you deal with the grief, the grief of.

00:49:51.130 --> 00:49:52.600
The death of those dreams.

00:49:52.990 --> 00:49:53.290
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

00:49:53.620 --> 00:49:56.950
Rupert Isaacson: And also the
absolute terror of what is to come.

00:49:57.370 --> 00:49:57.460
Yeah.

00:49:57.460 --> 00:50:01.570
You know, how am I going to meet
the challenge of this, you know?

00:50:01.575 --> 00:50:01.675
Mm-hmm.

00:50:01.755 --> 00:50:04.315
Because I just, I know what an
idiot I am, you know, like mm-hmm.

00:50:04.455 --> 00:50:05.320
I'm not built for this.

00:50:05.320 --> 00:50:06.280
I'm not strong enough for this.

00:50:06.280 --> 00:50:09.475
I'm not, you know, how on
earth am I gonna do Yeah.

00:50:09.880 --> 00:50:13.330
That, you know, and of course then
you end up doing it, you know?

00:50:13.780 --> 00:50:16.060
But joy

00:50:18.430 --> 00:50:19.240
is,

00:50:22.150 --> 00:50:25.030
if one isn't living a joyful life,
then one isn't really living.

00:50:25.030 --> 00:50:27.880
And it doesn't mean that every
moment can necessarily be joyful.

00:50:28.540 --> 00:50:28.870
Amanda Atkins: That's right.

00:50:28.870 --> 00:50:29.015
But if that,

00:50:29.015 --> 00:50:30.520
Rupert Isaacson: but if that is the,

00:50:32.680 --> 00:50:41.350
if that's where one's focuses and one
places a really high value on it, then one

00:50:41.350 --> 00:50:45.670
is going to experience more of it than if
one didn't, and it's gonna pull through.

00:50:45.670 --> 00:50:45.730
Yeah.

00:50:46.270 --> 00:50:47.555
When you have your.

00:50:49.360 --> 00:50:51.580
Clients coming in and they are in that

00:50:52.210 --> 00:50:52.330
Amanda Atkins: mm-hmm.

00:50:52.570 --> 00:50:54.910
Rupert Isaacson: Grief, funk, terror mode.

00:50:56.740 --> 00:50:59.920
How do you help to
orient them back to joy?

00:51:01.210 --> 00:51:02.530
Amanda Atkins: It's such a good question.

00:51:02.530 --> 00:51:05.860
I think it's, I think that's like the
most important question, honestly.

00:51:05.860 --> 00:51:09.880
And you would be shocked at how
many people I meet with and I say

00:51:09.880 --> 00:51:11.020
exactly what you just asked me.

00:51:11.020 --> 00:51:12.220
You know, what brings you joy?

00:51:12.250 --> 00:51:13.210
Where do you find meaning?

00:51:13.720 --> 00:51:16.930
And they cannot come up with an answer.

00:51:17.380 --> 00:51:19.690
You know, they might be able to
tell me what used to bring them

00:51:19.690 --> 00:51:22.780
joy or things that they like doing.

00:51:23.230 --> 00:51:25.450
But then when I say, well, when's
the last time you did that?

00:51:25.450 --> 00:51:27.820
You know, years.

00:51:28.120 --> 00:51:29.740
You know, when's the last time that you.

00:51:31.360 --> 00:51:32.950
You know, something simple.

00:51:33.100 --> 00:51:34.870
Oh, I love going for a walk with my dog.

00:51:34.900 --> 00:51:36.850
Okay, well, how often do you do that?

00:51:36.850 --> 00:51:40.360
Well, I don't know if I really don't
have time to do it between this and that.

00:51:40.360 --> 00:51:45.460
And I do understand that, you know,
like we, time is, it's hard to find

00:51:45.460 --> 00:51:49.990
time for things when parents are busy,
but I do firmly believe that we make

00:51:49.990 --> 00:51:52.090
time for what we want to make time for.

00:51:52.450 --> 00:51:57.100
And so I, I encourage parents
to put it in your schedule.

00:51:57.100 --> 00:51:59.710
You know, it takes some of the
sexiness out of it when Yeah.

00:51:59.710 --> 00:52:00.400
You have to,

00:52:00.670 --> 00:52:00.820
sure.

00:52:00.820 --> 00:52:00.995
You know.

00:52:01.585 --> 00:52:03.145
Put it in your calendar, but who cares?

00:52:03.145 --> 00:52:07.255
Like if, if you look at my weekly
calendar, it's like workout the,

00:52:07.465 --> 00:52:09.745
you know, horses on a Saturday.

00:52:09.745 --> 00:52:11.125
It's all in the schedule.

00:52:11.175 --> 00:52:13.485
Yes, it's not spontaneous and
it's not sexy, but it's in

00:52:13.485 --> 00:52:14.745
there and I'm making it happen.

00:52:14.745 --> 00:52:18.975
And you know, I think really
helping parents determine what

00:52:18.975 --> 00:52:20.445
is it that brings them joy?

00:52:20.775 --> 00:52:22.065
What are they passionate about?

00:52:22.065 --> 00:52:26.685
I always ask parents, where do
you find your meaning in life?

00:52:26.735 --> 00:52:29.285
I mean, it sounds like such a big
question, but I think it's an important

00:52:29.285 --> 00:52:30.785
question to be able to have an answer to.

00:52:31.145 --> 00:52:34.565
And also, how has this
parenting journey changed you?

00:52:34.835 --> 00:52:38.405
Because I think part of where we
find meaning is identifying how has

00:52:38.405 --> 00:52:40.925
this shaped me without judgment.

00:52:40.925 --> 00:52:44.015
Like, it's not, it's not, oh,
it's made me, it's made me

00:52:44.015 --> 00:52:47.375
into a, you know, this bad way.

00:52:47.825 --> 00:52:51.035
Let's shift that to say, okay, it's
made me more, yes, maybe it's it.

00:52:51.575 --> 00:52:54.215
A lot of parents will say,
I've become more anxious.

00:52:55.085 --> 00:52:57.005
I become more anxious by
this parenting journey.

00:52:57.005 --> 00:52:58.955
'cause I've realized all
these bad things can happen.

00:52:59.945 --> 00:53:02.135
So, you know, I would wanna
work with a parent on like,

00:53:02.135 --> 00:53:05.105
well, what, what does that mean?

00:53:05.135 --> 00:53:05.645
Like, what?

00:53:05.645 --> 00:53:06.695
What do you mean to feel more?

00:53:06.695 --> 00:53:06.965
Yes.

00:53:06.965 --> 00:53:08.195
You feel worried about things.

00:53:08.195 --> 00:53:09.395
Is there another way to look at that?

00:53:09.395 --> 00:53:11.195
You feel more aware of suffering.

00:53:11.615 --> 00:53:14.885
You feel that you can now, you
know, you're now more attuned

00:53:14.885 --> 00:53:16.115
to the suffering in the world.

00:53:16.475 --> 00:53:16.715
Yes.

00:53:16.715 --> 00:53:19.715
That's a sad thing, but can we
look at that and also look at that

00:53:19.715 --> 00:53:23.375
in a way that's actually helpful
for humanity, helpful for people?

00:53:23.375 --> 00:53:23.555
Right?

00:53:23.555 --> 00:53:24.875
You, you notice differences.

00:53:24.875 --> 00:53:27.725
Now you're more attuned to people
that are different from you.

00:53:27.905 --> 00:53:30.215
Like, isn't that a win in the
grand scheme of things, you know?

00:53:30.215 --> 00:53:33.305
So when I'm working with a parent
around this, I like to help.

00:53:33.725 --> 00:53:37.595
Identify what is it that causes
them joy, which is oftentimes,

00:53:37.595 --> 00:53:40.955
like I said, you would think that
that would be an easy answer.

00:53:40.955 --> 00:53:44.525
But oftentimes, particularly for moms,
I find that that is not something

00:53:44.525 --> 00:53:45.815
that people can easily answer.

00:53:46.115 --> 00:53:48.965
And number two, where are you finding
meaning in your life and what,

00:53:48.965 --> 00:53:50.825
what brings you meaning in life?

00:53:50.885 --> 00:53:52.985
Those are the two questions that I
always want people to be able to Do you

00:53:52.985 --> 00:53:55.745
Rupert Isaacson: find that they can tell
you what did used to bring them joy?

00:53:55.745 --> 00:53:59.435
Or do some of them actually say, you
know, I've never really had anything.

00:54:00.185 --> 00:54:02.585
Amanda Atkins: People can usually
tell me what used to bring them joy.

00:54:02.645 --> 00:54:02.675
Oh.

00:54:02.675 --> 00:54:04.025
I used to like going out with my friends.

00:54:04.025 --> 00:54:07.685
I used to like listening to music,
but they feel so disconnected

00:54:07.685 --> 00:54:09.035
from that version of themselves.

00:54:09.040 --> 00:54:09.280
Mm-hmm.

00:54:12.430 --> 00:54:15.845
Rupert Isaacson: Now you
are lucky in one big regard.

00:54:15.845 --> 00:54:18.215
You have a successful
marriage, at least so far.

00:54:18.215 --> 00:54:18.635
Yes.

00:54:19.145 --> 00:54:19.535
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

00:54:19.595 --> 00:54:25.055
Rupert Isaacson: What you and I both
know is that at least 80% of special

00:54:25.055 --> 00:54:26.555
needs marriages don't make the cut.

00:54:27.230 --> 00:54:27.740
Amanda Atkins: Now

00:54:27.740 --> 00:54:30.770
Rupert Isaacson: 50% of marriages
don't make the cuts, so That's right.

00:54:31.250 --> 00:54:31.550
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

00:54:31.910 --> 00:54:35.060
Rupert Isaacson: But nonetheless there's
an awful lot of single parents out there.

00:54:35.570 --> 00:54:35.870
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

00:54:36.050 --> 00:54:39.320
Rupert Isaacson: And when that
hits, then the overwhelm goes

00:54:39.320 --> 00:54:41.750
into just a whole other sphere.

00:54:41.810 --> 00:54:42.020
Yep.

00:54:42.680 --> 00:54:46.250
And yeah, quite likely there
may not be time for much.

00:54:46.760 --> 00:54:47.150
That's right.

00:54:47.200 --> 00:54:52.510
When you've got someone in that
position, of course the need for

00:54:52.510 --> 00:54:54.010
the choice is even more acute.

00:54:54.610 --> 00:54:54.790
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.

00:54:55.030 --> 00:54:58.060
Rupert Isaacson: Because the potential
for burnout is so much higher.

00:54:58.690 --> 00:54:58.810
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.

00:54:59.860 --> 00:55:03.520
Rupert Isaacson: Do what are the
tools that you help people with,

00:55:04.210 --> 00:55:05.080
particularly in that situation?

00:55:05.080 --> 00:55:05.380
Yeah.

00:55:06.010 --> 00:55:10.240
Amanda Atkins: I think a big part of that
is, is intentionally developing community.

00:55:10.750 --> 00:55:14.860
You know, so it's, it's not,
yes, you're a single parent and.

00:55:15.280 --> 00:55:16.840
The demands are huge, right?

00:55:17.290 --> 00:55:21.220
But that there is somebody
may maybe co-parent is, is

00:55:21.220 --> 00:55:22.240
totally out of the picture.

00:55:22.240 --> 00:55:24.310
You know, maybe you have a horrible
relationship with co-parent and

00:55:24.310 --> 00:55:26.350
you're not even willing to go
to an IEP meeting with them.

00:55:26.350 --> 00:55:27.730
I don't know what the
situation is, you know?

00:55:27.730 --> 00:55:27.970
But

00:55:28.360 --> 00:55:28.420
yeah.

00:55:29.290 --> 00:55:33.970
Where can you find community that,
that you can find people that you

00:55:33.970 --> 00:55:37.900
can, you know, go eat dinner with on a
Sunday with their family, that they do

00:55:37.900 --> 00:55:40.330
understand your child, that you feel seen.

00:55:41.080 --> 00:55:47.050
This is not easy, you know, for a million
reasons nowadays, but I do think it's

00:55:47.050 --> 00:55:52.840
something that we have to intentionally be
seeking and, you know, a modern, certainly

00:55:52.870 --> 00:55:58.240
modern American culture is not structured,
you know, with community in mind.

00:55:58.240 --> 00:55:59.440
We're very isolated.

00:55:59.710 --> 00:56:00.010
Yeah.

00:56:00.010 --> 00:56:01.330
And it's a huge problem.

00:56:01.330 --> 00:56:01.810
And so.

00:56:02.815 --> 00:56:05.815
If you're not, especially
like if you're non-religious.

00:56:05.815 --> 00:56:06.025
Right?

00:56:06.025 --> 00:56:09.205
Because I think religious people can
find it within their, that's, that's I

00:56:09.205 --> 00:56:12.685
think, can be a strength of people who
are religious is that they can go to their

00:56:12.685 --> 00:56:17.455
church or their synagogue or whatever and
perhaps find like significant community.

00:56:17.455 --> 00:56:22.405
But in the absence of that, like,
yeah, where do we go to find community?

00:56:23.185 --> 00:56:23.995
It is hard.

00:56:23.995 --> 00:56:26.815
It's really hard, especially in a
city of, I mean, in America, period.

00:56:26.815 --> 00:56:27.265
You know?

00:56:28.645 --> 00:56:29.215
Rupert Isaacson: So again, yeah.

00:56:29.215 --> 00:56:31.285
What, what are the tools?

00:56:31.345 --> 00:56:35.215
For example, yeah, I could, I could,
'cause I, I deal with this as well.

00:56:35.215 --> 00:56:37.465
I, I could tell you some
of the tools that I give.

00:56:38.155 --> 00:56:38.485
Yeah.

00:56:38.535 --> 00:56:42.865
Because the, the, the obstacles
that you just brought our

00:56:42.865 --> 00:56:44.065
attention to are very real.

00:56:44.665 --> 00:56:44.815
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.

00:56:45.535 --> 00:56:48.595
Rupert Isaacson: It's one thing
to say you need community, it's

00:56:48.595 --> 00:56:49.700
a whole other thing to find it.

00:56:49.700 --> 00:56:49.940
Mm-hmm.

00:56:50.080 --> 00:56:52.980
So how do people help people to find it?

00:56:54.025 --> 00:56:54.235
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

00:56:54.235 --> 00:56:55.420
I think that's where it comes.

00:56:57.200 --> 00:56:58.780
There's like a bravery in that.

00:56:58.785 --> 00:56:59.115
Mm-hmm.

00:56:59.260 --> 00:56:59.590
You know,

00:56:59.590 --> 00:57:05.290
talk, like talking, talking to another
mom at school pickup, inviting a mom

00:57:05.290 --> 00:57:07.480
and her kid over for dinner some night.

00:57:07.480 --> 00:57:12.040
Like, there's a lot of bravery
and that's required and planning.

00:57:12.040 --> 00:57:14.830
So if I was sitting with a parent, I
might say, okay, let's go through what

00:57:14.830 --> 00:57:17.980
your schedule looks like and let's
identify a few people that maybe you

00:57:17.980 --> 00:57:19.690
could start to build relationships with.

00:57:19.990 --> 00:57:20.020
Okay.

00:57:20.020 --> 00:57:21.760
What does communication
look like with them?

00:57:21.760 --> 00:57:25.000
How do you initiate, what
fears come up around that?

00:57:25.000 --> 00:57:27.760
Like it's, you know, do you feel
nervous that they're not gonna

00:57:27.760 --> 00:57:28.720
want, you know, that kind of thing.

00:57:28.780 --> 00:57:28.810
Mm.

00:57:28.810 --> 00:57:31.810
So really just like talking through
how do we build relationships

00:57:32.450 --> 00:57:33.410
in a way that's, those are,

00:57:33.650 --> 00:57:35.390
Rupert Isaacson: those are
very solid tools actually.

00:57:36.050 --> 00:57:41.900
That's, that's to, to, to say are there
actually people that you can identify?

00:57:42.110 --> 00:57:42.650
Amanda Atkins: That's right.

00:57:42.800 --> 00:57:46.130
Rupert Isaacson: They're another mom who
you feel that there could be a vibe with.

00:57:46.850 --> 00:57:47.210
Yeah.

00:57:47.260 --> 00:57:49.880
Do you, do you see people
becoming successful with this?

00:57:50.830 --> 00:57:51.280
On the home.

00:57:51.340 --> 00:57:52.720
Amanda Atkins: Yeah, I do.

00:57:52.720 --> 00:57:56.860
It's, it's so loaded because it's,
there's so many things that go into this.

00:57:56.860 --> 00:58:00.460
It's like, I can give you
skills, like, how do we initiate

00:58:00.460 --> 00:58:01.600
hanging out with somebody?

00:58:02.020 --> 00:58:04.150
You know, who do you entrust
to take care of your kids so

00:58:04.150 --> 00:58:05.350
that you can get time away?

00:58:05.530 --> 00:58:05.830
Mm-hmm.

00:58:05.860 --> 00:58:06.070
But,

00:58:06.070 --> 00:58:10.540
you know, it's, there's personality
comes into a fact, like, you know, how

00:58:10.540 --> 00:58:12.160
are there interpersonal relationships?

00:58:12.160 --> 00:58:13.270
How are their skills?

00:58:13.480 --> 00:58:15.400
There's only so much
coaching I can do there.

00:58:15.680 --> 00:58:20.270
You know, but I think helping people
be brave enough to take the first step

00:58:20.780 --> 00:58:23.960
and helping them identify what, on
the big picture, what's your goals?

00:58:23.990 --> 00:58:24.170
Okay.

00:58:24.170 --> 00:58:27.560
You wanna have, let's say your goal
is you wanna have another mom in the

00:58:27.560 --> 00:58:32.150
community that you can, you can watch
their kid for a little bit and they

00:58:32.150 --> 00:58:34.940
can go do something and then they
can watch your kid for a little bit.

00:58:35.450 --> 00:58:38.330
And you can go do something and
have some alone time or go to

00:58:38.330 --> 00:58:39.440
class or whatever like that.

00:58:39.440 --> 00:58:42.560
Okay, well let's think about, let's
really break this down and, 'cause I

00:58:42.560 --> 00:58:46.550
think people look at these situations
and they feel so overwhelmed, oh,

00:58:46.550 --> 00:58:48.020
nobody could ever watch my kid.

00:58:48.650 --> 00:58:52.700
You know, or, but it's like, okay, let's
step into reality and let's confront

00:58:52.700 --> 00:58:55.670
this and look at it in a way and
actually come up with some ideas where

00:58:55.670 --> 00:58:56.990
maybe we can help solve this problem.

00:58:56.990 --> 00:59:00.380
So it's not such a big
overarching anxiety.

00:59:01.460 --> 00:59:05.240
Rupert Isaacson: The majority of people
that are reading your book and coming

00:59:05.240 --> 00:59:07.640
to you as clients, I presume are moms.

00:59:08.120 --> 00:59:08.690
Amanda Atkins: That's right.

00:59:10.370 --> 00:59:11.780
Rupert Isaacson: What's
the percentage of dads?

00:59:14.270 --> 00:59:18.260
Amanda Atkins: Oh, I mean,
I would say maybe 10% Dads.

00:59:18.260 --> 00:59:20.240
There definitely are dads.

00:59:20.390 --> 00:59:20.840
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:59:21.920 --> 00:59:24.170
Amanda Atkins: The book is
written in a really non-gendered

00:59:24.170 --> 00:59:25.640
way, so a dad could read it.

00:59:26.120 --> 00:59:26.420
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:59:27.005 --> 00:59:30.965
Yeah, just we know it's gonna be
90% women reading it and a lot

00:59:30.965 --> 00:59:34.205
of the dads who read it will be
told to read it by their spouses.

00:59:35.015 --> 00:59:35.825
Which is a good thing.

00:59:36.365 --> 00:59:36.695
Yeah.

00:59:36.745 --> 00:59:39.025
Do you get the single dad coming to you?

00:59:46.585 --> 00:59:48.895
Amanda Atkins: I don't think I have
ever had a single dad come to me.

00:59:49.285 --> 00:59:50.605
Rupert Isaacson: It's so
interesting, isn't it?

00:59:50.875 --> 00:59:51.415
Yeah.

00:59:51.475 --> 00:59:52.915
You know, I wonder where they go.

00:59:53.815 --> 00:59:54.355
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

00:59:54.595 --> 00:59:56.365
That's a population that is on your mind.

00:59:56.365 --> 00:59:56.965
Of course.

00:59:57.595 --> 00:59:58.195
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:59:58.255 --> 01:00:03.565
Because interestingly within the horse
boy world, there's a number of people

01:00:03.565 --> 01:00:09.715
who run really good programs, some
of which are residential, and there's

01:00:09.715 --> 01:00:10.975
some people that you should talk to.

01:00:11.185 --> 01:00:13.135
One, a man called David Doyle in Ireland

01:00:13.735 --> 01:00:13.795
Amanda Atkins: who

01:00:13.795 --> 01:00:16.395
Rupert Isaacson: has
started an an incredible.

01:00:17.570 --> 01:00:23.140
Program, he uses our methods particularly
movement method, but honestly,

01:00:23.140 --> 01:00:25.960
even if he'd never run across us,
he'd be doing a, a fantastic job.

01:00:26.170 --> 01:00:26.260
Mm-hmm.

01:00:26.440 --> 01:00:31.980
And he, he has this, this thing
called step in, step down.

01:00:32.010 --> 01:00:32.580
Step out.

01:00:32.580 --> 01:00:36.720
So the residential homes are,
they have a, they're in the

01:00:36.720 --> 01:00:38.880
country and they have apartments.

01:00:39.610 --> 01:00:40.720
They're fully supported.

01:00:40.900 --> 01:00:47.770
Somebody would come in and spend a certain
amount of time there, then transition to

01:00:47.770 --> 01:00:53.740
going sometimes back home and sometimes
there to then going fully back home.

01:00:54.310 --> 01:00:54.520
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.

01:00:54.640 --> 01:00:57.460
Rupert Isaacson: To then if they need to,
then cycle in again, cycling in again.

01:00:57.850 --> 01:00:58.600
Amanda Atkins: Oh, that's cool.

01:00:58.780 --> 01:01:01.510
Rupert Isaacson: And it's a
really cool model because the

01:01:01.510 --> 01:01:02.740
families are not broken up.

01:01:02.740 --> 01:01:03.880
Everybody gets a break.

01:01:04.565 --> 01:01:04.715
More

01:01:04.715 --> 01:01:06.425
Amanda Atkins: of like a
respite model, would you say?

01:01:06.425 --> 01:01:07.985
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly, exactly.

01:01:07.985 --> 01:01:07.995
Uhhuh.

01:01:08.165 --> 01:01:08.765
Exactly.

01:01:08.765 --> 01:01:11.555
But the respite being more
than like a night, you know?

01:01:11.555 --> 01:01:11.915
Yeah.

01:01:11.945 --> 01:01:13.145
The respite being that's great.

01:01:13.255 --> 01:01:14.695
You know, weeks if necessary.

01:01:15.835 --> 01:01:16.375
Amanda Atkins: That's, that was great.

01:01:16.375 --> 01:01:19.285
Rupert Isaacson: Whatever is right
for that person and his daughter is,

01:01:19.435 --> 01:01:21.265
you know, very severe, very acute.

01:01:21.445 --> 01:01:24.835
He had to do something and he came
up with this model, so he's one

01:01:24.835 --> 01:01:29.065
of the people I know who's really
built and now he's building them all

01:01:29.065 --> 01:01:33.595
over Ireland and he's got the Irish
government to pay for them and, and

01:01:33.655 --> 01:01:33.955
Amanda Atkins: great,

01:01:34.075 --> 01:01:37.405
Rupert Isaacson: you know, over 10 years
he's gathered all the data to show how

01:01:37.405 --> 01:01:38.845
it works and why it works and so on.

01:01:39.085 --> 01:01:39.325
Amanda Atkins: Wow.

01:01:39.395 --> 01:01:40.865
Rupert Isaacson: And there are these
people out there who are present.

01:01:40.865 --> 01:01:46.535
So interestingly within Horse Point, I
know some real dads like this, there's

01:01:46.535 --> 01:01:51.815
another man called Henrik Bergoff
in Germany who's got a son who had

01:01:51.845 --> 01:01:54.190
hydrocephalus and spina bifida and Wow.

01:01:54.190 --> 01:01:55.775
Was sold to have bought the sun.

01:01:56.015 --> 01:01:59.195
He and his wife Gitty run
this incredible thing.

01:01:59.225 --> 01:01:59.285
Yeah.

01:02:00.005 --> 01:02:01.595
Now neither of them are single dads.

01:02:01.895 --> 01:02:05.345
But we also have, of course, a lot of
moms who've started programs as well.

01:02:05.495 --> 01:02:05.855
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

01:02:06.125 --> 01:02:09.305
Rupert Isaacson: I'm just wondering,
you know, the, the male population

01:02:11.795 --> 01:02:13.415
is quite lost at the moment.

01:02:13.765 --> 01:02:13.855
Yeah.

01:02:13.855 --> 01:02:17.125
If you're a white male, you're just,
you are automatically the bad guy.

01:02:17.185 --> 01:02:25.365
And you, there are a lot out there
who are facing this and quite a lot.

01:02:25.395 --> 01:02:25.695
And what

01:02:25.695 --> 01:02:25.965
Amanda Atkins: per,

01:02:26.990 --> 01:02:27.290
Rupert Isaacson: go ahead.

01:02:27.290 --> 01:02:27.450
Like,

01:02:27.490 --> 01:02:31.995
Amanda Atkins: I, I think about
like what still in the year 2025,

01:02:31.995 --> 01:02:36.255
like what permission do men have
to, to feel, you know, like,

01:02:37.515 --> 01:02:38.025
Rupert Isaacson: none.

01:02:39.465 --> 01:02:39.795
Amanda Atkins: Right.

01:02:39.855 --> 01:02:40.740
That's all what, what I'm about.

01:02:40.740 --> 01:02:41.300
There's talk about it.

01:02:41.300 --> 01:02:42.180
Rupert Isaacson: There's talk about it.

01:02:42.180 --> 01:02:42.585
So that's why,

01:02:42.585 --> 01:02:44.745
Amanda Atkins: that's why nobody
comes to me, probably, you know?

01:02:44.745 --> 01:02:44.805
Yeah.

01:02:45.585 --> 01:02:48.375
Rupert Isaacson: Well because, because
the thing is as a, as a, as a bloke.

01:02:50.445 --> 01:02:54.975
You are supposed to be a sensitive
bloke, but if you actually

01:02:54.975 --> 01:02:59.205
show that vulnerability, there
are no brownie points for it.

01:02:59.835 --> 01:03:00.135
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

01:03:01.425 --> 01:03:03.495
Rupert Isaacson: In including,
frankly from, from women.

01:03:04.215 --> 01:03:04.575
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

01:03:04.785 --> 01:03:07.875
Rupert Isaacson: There is still
a preference for the stoic male.

01:03:08.250 --> 01:03:08.670
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.

01:03:09.040 --> 01:03:09.920
Rupert Isaacson: That is just the truth.

01:03:10.460 --> 01:03:10.880
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.

01:03:11.025 --> 01:03:13.215
Rupert Isaacson: If, if it was
different, I think we'd have noticed.

01:03:13.875 --> 01:03:13.965
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.

01:03:14.565 --> 01:03:16.065
Rupert Isaacson: I'm not,
I don't necessarily even

01:03:16.065 --> 01:03:16.995
have a judgment over that.

01:03:16.995 --> 01:03:18.375
I'm not sure that that's good or bad.

01:03:18.375 --> 01:03:22.335
I think that might be just
built into us a little bit.

01:03:23.115 --> 01:03:23.295
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.

01:03:23.625 --> 01:03:26.095
Rupert Isaacson: But nonetheless
if those men are suffering in that

01:03:26.095 --> 01:03:32.515
particular way and are looking at
decades of putting one foot in front of

01:03:32.515 --> 01:03:34.555
the other to try and make it all work.

01:03:35.425 --> 01:03:35.965
Yeah.

01:03:35.965 --> 01:03:37.405
What's the.

01:03:39.370 --> 01:03:40.330
What's the plan?

01:03:40.600 --> 01:03:44.800
And I'd be interested because
with, I'm talking to you as a

01:03:44.800 --> 01:03:46.150
therapist, not just as an author.

01:03:46.155 --> 01:03:46.335
Mm-hmm.

01:03:46.415 --> 01:03:46.425
Mm-hmm.

01:03:46.570 --> 01:03:48.160
And as a special, you
know, special needs parent.

01:03:48.160 --> 01:03:52.360
A special needs parent is that
something which, you know, once

01:03:52.360 --> 01:03:54.520
you've written a book, you know
this, then you need another book.

01:03:54.760 --> 01:03:57.730
I wonder, you know, is that gonna be
like your next book is where are the

01:03:57.730 --> 01:03:59.080
dads and what are we doing for them?

01:03:59.660 --> 01:03:59.930
A good

01:03:59.930 --> 01:04:00.320
Amanda Atkins: question.

01:04:00.320 --> 01:04:05.240
I mean, as of now, the next book is
either gonna be about siblings mm-hmm.

01:04:05.240 --> 01:04:07.520
Of kids with disabilities
or all about marriage.

01:04:08.300 --> 01:04:08.810
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:04:09.440 --> 01:04:10.640
Well, let's talk about marriage.

01:04:10.700 --> 01:04:11.030
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

01:04:11.180 --> 01:04:14.540
Rupert Isaacson: So you, you, I
think you are quite unusual in that

01:04:14.690 --> 01:04:15.890
you've been together how long now?

01:04:16.520 --> 01:04:17.540
Amanda Atkins: 20 years
we've been married.

01:04:17.540 --> 01:04:17.720
Yeah.

01:04:18.200 --> 01:04:20.540
Rupert Isaacson: And you know, I'm
sure it's all been roses, right?

01:04:20.870 --> 01:04:23.870
But you are together and

01:04:25.970 --> 01:04:28.040
okay, you must have a base compatibility.

01:04:28.040 --> 01:04:28.730
This helps.

01:04:31.490 --> 01:04:34.370
I'm sure a lot of people are coming
into you as special needs parents

01:04:34.370 --> 01:04:35.750
whose, whose marriage is a fracturing.

01:04:36.530 --> 01:04:36.620
Yes.

01:04:36.620 --> 01:04:38.360
And they're doing that on top of

01:04:39.230 --> 01:04:39.380
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

01:04:39.380 --> 01:04:39.590
Rupert Isaacson: You,

01:04:41.720 --> 01:04:43.250
what are your strategies there?

01:04:45.170 --> 01:04:47.600
Amanda Atkins: Oh, it's hard.

01:04:47.600 --> 01:04:48.200
It's, this is,

01:04:48.710 --> 01:04:49.010
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

01:04:49.400 --> 01:04:50.900
Amanda Atkins: Arguably the hardest.

01:04:51.110 --> 01:04:51.440
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:04:51.500 --> 01:04:54.500
Amanda Atkins: Because you have
two individuals with completely

01:04:54.500 --> 01:05:01.130
different life experiences coming
in and grieving a situation and

01:05:01.130 --> 01:05:03.140
approaching a situation differently.

01:05:03.500 --> 01:05:07.165
And both of them are spinning, trying
to do the best they can for their child.

01:05:08.390 --> 01:05:09.320
And for themselves.

01:05:09.320 --> 01:05:12.920
And often that leaves zero
time for the relationship.

01:05:13.310 --> 01:05:13.460
Yeah.

01:05:13.460 --> 01:05:17.510
You know, zero time for intimacy
or connection or, you know,

01:05:17.570 --> 01:05:19.490
communication or fun playfulness.

01:05:19.490 --> 01:05:21.740
It's just so serious, intense, even

01:05:21.740 --> 01:05:22.610
Rupert Isaacson: sitting
glass of wine together.

01:05:22.610 --> 01:05:22.820
Yeah.

01:05:22.820 --> 01:05:23.330
Absolutely.

01:05:23.330 --> 01:05:24.320
Amanda Atkins: Impossible.

01:05:24.560 --> 01:05:26.315
And, and room for conflict too.

01:05:26.315 --> 01:05:29.810
We sit down and now I'm talking
about, well, I went to this

01:05:29.810 --> 01:05:30.980
appointment and you didn't do that.

01:05:30.980 --> 01:05:34.820
There's no playfulness and there's
no connection like there used to be

01:05:34.820 --> 01:05:37.010
because it's, everything is high stakes.

01:05:37.010 --> 01:05:38.420
Everything is so high stakes.

01:05:38.420 --> 01:05:38.840
Yeah.

01:05:38.840 --> 01:05:38.960
Rupert Isaacson: You know,

01:05:40.220 --> 01:05:40.825
Amanda Atkins: That's the reality.

01:05:40.825 --> 01:05:41.225
Well actually I

01:05:41.225 --> 01:05:44.780
Rupert Isaacson: would posit that what
is going on for most married couples

01:05:44.780 --> 01:05:49.970
in the special needs thing is actually
something similar to what's going on

01:05:49.970 --> 01:05:53.180
for a lot of the special needs kids.

01:05:53.810 --> 01:05:58.400
Because most of the special needs
kids, it comes with not all but many.

01:05:58.400 --> 01:06:00.800
It comes with a really high anxiety level.

01:06:01.290 --> 01:06:03.150
High levels of cortisol.

01:06:03.150 --> 01:06:03.300
Yeah.

01:06:04.020 --> 01:06:04.320
Amanda Atkins: Yep.

01:06:04.481 --> 01:06:07.891
Rupert Isaacson: If you made it
this far into the podcast, then I'm

01:06:07.891 --> 01:06:12.571
guessing you're somebody that, like
me, loves to read books about not

01:06:12.571 --> 01:06:16.471
just how people have achieved self
actualization, but particularly

01:06:16.491 --> 01:06:20.181
about the relationship with nature.

01:06:20.631 --> 01:06:23.811
Spirituality, life, the
universe, and everything.

01:06:24.551 --> 01:06:27.501
And I'd like to draw your
attention to my books.

01:06:27.511 --> 01:06:32.191
If you would like to read the story
of how we even arrived here, perhaps

01:06:32.191 --> 01:06:36.651
you'd like to check out the two New
York Times bestsellers, The Horseboy

01:06:37.351 --> 01:06:42.321
and The Long Ride Home, and come on an
adventure with us and see what engendered,

01:06:42.381 --> 01:06:44.531
what started Live Free Ride Free.

01:06:44.551 --> 01:06:48.331
And before we go back to the
podcast, also check out The Healing

01:06:48.331 --> 01:06:50.821
Land, which tells the story of.

01:06:51.526 --> 01:06:56.916
My years spent in the Kalahari with the
Sun, Bushmen, hunter gatherer people

01:06:56.916 --> 01:07:01.076
there, and all that they taught me, and
mentored me in, and all that I learned.

01:07:01.326 --> 01:07:02.586
Come on that adventure with me.

01:07:02.610 --> 01:07:07.450
My friend Joel Dunlap, another
person you should get with who

01:07:07.450 --> 01:07:13.210
runs Square Peg Foundation in
California does they incredible work.

01:07:14.070 --> 01:07:15.900
You know, square pegs
and ran holes, everyone.

01:07:16.470 --> 01:07:18.750
So in Square Peg Foundation,
everybody fits right.

01:07:19.200 --> 01:07:20.040
Amanda Atkins: I love that.

01:07:20.130 --> 01:07:21.180
Rupert Isaacson: She's a bit of a genius.

01:07:21.240 --> 01:07:22.830
And also a special needs mom.

01:07:23.610 --> 01:07:26.220
We had our horse boy Tribe day.

01:07:26.225 --> 01:07:28.260
We, we are big believers in tribe.

01:07:28.500 --> 01:07:29.430
In Community.

01:07:29.490 --> 01:07:29.610
Mm-hmm.

01:07:29.910 --> 01:07:32.610
We're international, so, you know,
it's 40 countries and people.

01:07:32.730 --> 01:07:34.620
So we try to get together
every couple of years.

01:07:34.620 --> 01:07:38.340
And this year we got together in
Ireland and she was a speaker and

01:07:38.340 --> 01:07:39.360
she made this really good point.

01:07:39.360 --> 01:07:41.850
She said, what you're dealing with,
whether it's the kids or whether it's

01:07:41.850 --> 01:07:44.430
the parents, is cortisol poisoning.

01:07:45.240 --> 01:07:45.450
Amanda Atkins: Yep.

01:07:45.990 --> 01:07:50.310
Rupert Isaacson: So for those
listeners who don't really

01:07:50.310 --> 01:07:54.030
know that neuroscience are.

01:07:54.825 --> 01:07:59.625
The part of your brain that governs fight,
flight, freeze, fear, anxiety is called

01:07:59.625 --> 01:08:03.375
the amygdala, which means almond in old.

01:08:03.675 --> 01:08:03.825
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.

01:08:04.095 --> 01:08:04.245
Because

01:08:04.245 --> 01:08:05.085
Rupert Isaacson: it's
shaped like an almond.

01:08:05.505 --> 01:08:12.405
And if it detects a threat, imaginary
or real, that it doesn't care, it will

01:08:12.405 --> 01:08:15.465
tell your body to produce two things.

01:08:15.745 --> 01:08:17.875
Adrenaline and cortisol.

01:08:18.085 --> 01:08:25.495
And cortisol is like a pair of scissors
that momentarily cuts the cord between

01:08:25.495 --> 01:08:29.875
the, or the connection between the
boiler room of the brain dealing with

01:08:29.905 --> 01:08:35.365
all the blood flow and temperature and
digestion and the front part of the brain.

01:08:35.365 --> 01:08:39.505
The CEO wondering what's for lunch because
you do not want to be wondering what's

01:08:39.505 --> 01:08:44.515
for lunch when something wants to make
you lunch you or make lunch out of you.

01:08:44.905 --> 01:08:49.615
So you must act not think so it nature's
very clever, it's kills brain cells.

01:08:49.615 --> 01:08:53.275
It's a neurotoxin, so that's why
stress makes you sick because it's.

01:08:53.830 --> 01:08:55.090
Actually a neurotoxin.

01:08:55.580 --> 01:08:57.860
And it sticks around in
the body all the time.

01:08:57.860 --> 01:08:59.360
And happiness feels fleeting.

01:08:59.360 --> 01:09:04.820
'cause oxytocin, serotonin, they evaporate
almost as soon as they're produced.

01:09:04.820 --> 01:09:06.020
You have to keep producing
them all the time mm-hmm.

01:09:06.680 --> 01:09:09.800
To, to keep feeling happy,
whereas cortisol sticks around.

01:09:09.800 --> 01:09:12.470
So PTSD is basically cortisol
scarring in the brain.

01:09:12.500 --> 01:09:12.860
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

01:09:13.010 --> 01:09:16.280
Rupert Isaacson: And luckily you
can, you can deal with it with

01:09:16.280 --> 01:09:19.370
oxytocin very quickly if you
know how to produce oxytocin.

01:09:19.370 --> 01:09:20.240
That's a whole other thing.

01:09:20.780 --> 01:09:20.900
Mm-hmm.

01:09:21.140 --> 01:09:21.260
Amanda Atkins: But,

01:09:21.530 --> 01:09:22.400
Rupert Isaacson: There it is.

01:09:22.400 --> 01:09:30.680
So you've got two people who are
in this marriage who are kind of

01:09:30.680 --> 01:09:32.540
drowning in a vat of cortisol.

01:09:32.540 --> 01:09:32.810
Yeah, that's right.

01:09:33.380 --> 01:09:36.830
And when you, when you've got
cortisol going around you, you can't

01:09:36.830 --> 01:09:38.330
reason because you can't think.

01:09:38.605 --> 01:09:39.025
Mm-hmm.

01:09:39.105 --> 01:09:42.500
So when you're having a knockdown
drag out fight with your.

01:09:43.205 --> 01:09:47.465
You know, significant other, that's not
the best time to talk about your long-term

01:09:47.465 --> 01:09:49.265
investment portfolios because Exactly.

01:09:49.325 --> 01:09:51.515
They're just not gonna
make a rational decision.

01:09:51.515 --> 01:09:52.055
That's right.

01:09:52.055 --> 01:09:52.715
That's right.

01:09:52.805 --> 01:09:53.915
Not available, you know?

01:09:53.975 --> 01:09:56.045
Access denied for intellect.

01:09:56.195 --> 01:09:56.285
Amanda Atkins: Yep.

01:09:56.615 --> 01:09:59.465
Rupert Isaacson: So that's
what these people are facing.

01:10:00.365 --> 01:10:02.255
And then of course they go
to war for these reasons.

01:10:03.035 --> 01:10:03.815
How do you help 'em?

01:10:05.795 --> 01:10:10.955
Amanda Atkins: Restoring safety
is such a slow process, right?

01:10:11.555 --> 01:10:15.515
Like bringing your nervous
system back to baseline.

01:10:16.325 --> 01:10:20.920
I think it starts with giving
yourself permission to rest.

01:10:21.620 --> 01:10:22.040
Mm-hmm.

01:10:22.420 --> 01:10:24.800
You know, lowering the expectation.

01:10:24.965 --> 01:10:28.625
Like this constant need for
therapy, therapy, therapy, therapy.

01:10:28.625 --> 01:10:31.655
Kid has seven therapies a week
and you're going to see every

01:10:31.655 --> 01:10:32.855
specialist and you're doing this.

01:10:32.855 --> 01:10:33.215
It's like,

01:10:33.425 --> 01:10:33.875
Rupert Isaacson: yeah,

01:10:35.225 --> 01:10:36.275
Amanda Atkins: just be.

01:10:36.635 --> 01:10:38.795
What does it feel like
to just be for a minute?

01:10:39.095 --> 01:10:44.405
You know, there's been times where I, even
now we're in one therapy a week for Asher.

01:10:44.435 --> 01:10:44.885
That's it.

01:10:45.485 --> 01:10:48.815
There's been times where we've had four
or five therapies a week, and I just

01:10:48.815 --> 01:10:52.955
had to stop it eventually and be like,
I cannot function at this level anymore.

01:10:52.955 --> 01:10:53.195
You know?

01:10:53.195 --> 01:10:57.545
And so it's counterintuitive because
we feel like we need to be doing

01:10:57.545 --> 01:11:01.955
24 7, but I really think lowering
the cortisol is by doing less.

01:11:01.955 --> 01:11:06.695
And just coming back to basics, like
again, that question, what brings you joy?

01:11:06.905 --> 01:11:07.235
Yeah.

01:11:07.955 --> 01:11:09.425
You know, where can you cut?

01:11:09.935 --> 01:11:12.275
Can you, do you really, is
this therapy really something

01:11:12.275 --> 01:11:13.355
that you have to do right now?

01:11:13.355 --> 01:11:14.855
Or is, can you take a break from it?

01:11:15.575 --> 01:11:18.695
You know, our kids are overscheduled
and therefore we're overscheduled, and

01:11:18.695 --> 01:11:21.425
so do you have to go do all this stuff?

01:11:21.425 --> 01:11:26.045
Or can you find safety for a minute
and, and let your nervous system

01:11:26.555 --> 01:11:29.705
relax a little bit so that you can
actually allow yourself to feel joy.

01:11:30.425 --> 01:11:31.565
It sounds so simple, right?

01:11:31.565 --> 01:11:34.265
But I mean, in reality, this
is impossible stuff to do.

01:11:34.325 --> 01:11:35.525
Rupert Isaacson: Well, it's
not simple when you're.

01:11:35.900 --> 01:11:39.650
Dealing with what you're just talking
about because the exhausting, I

01:11:39.650 --> 01:11:43.820
remember in the early days with
Rowan before I became the therapy.

01:11:44.570 --> 01:11:44.720
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

01:11:44.820 --> 01:11:46.140
Rupert Isaacson: We were, yes.

01:11:46.140 --> 01:11:47.670
Constantly driving around spending money.

01:11:47.670 --> 01:11:48.060
We,

01:11:48.690 --> 01:11:48.870
Amanda Atkins: yes.

01:11:48.870 --> 01:11:49.140
Didn't

01:11:49.140 --> 01:11:52.050
Rupert Isaacson: have time we didn't have.

01:11:53.190 --> 01:11:57.390
And it was incredibly stressful.

01:11:57.840 --> 01:12:03.300
Where I was really lucky 'cause
I'm a journalist, like, so

01:12:04.320 --> 01:12:06.000
I will always ask questions.

01:12:07.050 --> 01:12:11.940
So I knew that I didn't know anything
about this condition that my son had.

01:12:12.420 --> 01:12:18.360
So I thought, okay, I need a mentor
who I believe in mentorship strongly,

01:12:18.600 --> 01:12:20.250
you know, who is that mentor?

01:12:20.980 --> 01:12:23.320
Like what qualities would
that mentor need to have?

01:12:24.070 --> 01:12:25.660
And I coach people with this.

01:12:26.410 --> 01:12:29.500
So it was okay, that mentor
needs to be an adult with autism

01:12:30.280 --> 01:12:35.050
because anybody else will have
opinions, but not lived experience.

01:12:35.410 --> 01:12:35.800
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

01:12:35.800 --> 01:12:35.950
And

01:12:36.040 --> 01:12:38.980
Rupert Isaacson: that autism
can't just be like, you know,

01:12:38.980 --> 01:12:41.290
high functioning quirkiness a la

01:12:41.350 --> 01:12:41.680
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

01:12:41.770 --> 01:12:42.580
Rupert Isaacson: Young Sheldon.

01:12:43.420 --> 01:12:46.270
It's to be like, they had to
start where my son was nonverbal,

01:12:46.270 --> 01:12:50.500
shitting their pants, self-harming
tantrums, like all of that.

01:12:50.920 --> 01:12:52.540
And they have to have somehow made it.

01:12:52.960 --> 01:12:53.830
Who's that person?

01:12:54.100 --> 01:12:56.530
And actually that person
was really easy to identify.

01:12:57.100 --> 01:12:57.640
That was Dr.

01:12:57.640 --> 01:12:58.300
Temple Grandin.

01:12:59.260 --> 01:12:59.890
Amanda Atkins: Ah, right, right, right.

01:12:59.890 --> 01:13:00.130
Yeah.

01:13:00.130 --> 01:13:00.520
So she she

01:13:00.520 --> 01:13:02.320
Rupert Isaacson: started
life exactly there.

01:13:02.320 --> 01:13:05.290
She was rocking in a corner at
three, wiping her poo on the walls.

01:13:05.530 --> 01:13:05.590
Yeah.

01:13:05.590 --> 01:13:07.720
They were gonna
institutionalize her nonverbal.

01:13:08.500 --> 01:13:11.670
So I just wrote her an email
and said can I come talk to you?

01:13:12.240 --> 01:13:12.450
Cool.

01:13:12.510 --> 01:13:13.410
And she went, yeah.

01:13:13.650 --> 01:13:16.260
So I just showed up and I
sat in her office and said,

01:13:16.260 --> 01:13:17.430
how does my son become you?

01:13:18.375 --> 01:13:20.655
And she said, do three
things, and I did 'em.

01:13:20.655 --> 01:13:20.745
Mm-hmm.

01:13:21.495 --> 01:13:24.945
And the most important
one was follow the child.

01:13:25.725 --> 01:13:26.265
Amanda Atkins: Yes.

01:13:26.325 --> 01:13:29.445
Rupert Isaacson: And that's why I asked
about ASHA's passionate interests.

01:13:29.450 --> 01:13:29.690
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

01:13:29.895 --> 01:13:30.225
Yeah.

01:13:30.405 --> 01:13:32.595
Rupert Isaacson: And that's why I
asked about your passionate interests.

01:13:32.745 --> 01:13:32.835
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.

01:13:33.435 --> 01:13:37.035
Rupert Isaacson: Because I know
from experience that if I follow

01:13:37.725 --> 01:13:41.745
the passionate interests of my kid,
everything else will fall into place.

01:13:42.135 --> 01:13:42.495
Amanda Atkins: Right.

01:13:42.735 --> 01:13:46.125
Rupert Isaacson: But if I try
to put an adult agenda on it,

01:13:46.635 --> 01:13:48.255
everything will get very complex.

01:13:48.795 --> 01:13:49.125
Amanda Atkins: Yep.

01:13:49.245 --> 01:13:52.545
Rupert Isaacson: But we are told
we have to put the adult agenda on.

01:13:52.545 --> 01:13:53.415
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.

01:13:54.285 --> 01:13:58.995
Rupert Isaacson: You know, that the
child should comply to the adult agenda.

01:13:59.000 --> 01:13:59.270
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.

01:14:00.060 --> 01:14:00.480
Mm-hmm.

01:14:00.645 --> 01:14:00.795
And

01:14:00.795 --> 01:14:02.805
Rupert Isaacson: that I think
is, you know, we were all

01:14:02.805 --> 01:14:03.855
brought up with that, weren't we?

01:14:04.200 --> 01:14:04.260
Yeah.

01:14:04.950 --> 01:14:08.220
So it's, it is a real, so I've, you
know, when we're doing our trainings, for

01:14:08.220 --> 01:14:11.910
example, that's the hardest skill to teach
people is the follow the child piece.

01:14:12.000 --> 01:14:13.350
Sounds so simple.

01:14:13.410 --> 01:14:14.520
Like you said, fi find joy.

01:14:14.520 --> 01:14:15.450
It sounds very simple, doesn't it?

01:14:15.630 --> 01:14:17.370
But it's not because Right.

01:14:18.000 --> 01:14:23.010
Our Judaic, you know,
cultures are not about joy.

01:14:23.040 --> 01:14:23.910
They're about suffering.

01:14:23.910 --> 01:14:24.690
Amanda Atkins: Exactly.

01:14:24.930 --> 01:14:25.770
Rupert Isaacson: Going to hell.

01:14:26.100 --> 01:14:27.270
Paying your tithes.

01:14:27.600 --> 01:14:28.990
Control, control, control.

01:14:28.990 --> 01:14:29.275
Yeah.

01:14:29.430 --> 01:14:29.730
Yeah.

01:14:29.790 --> 01:14:30.060
Amanda Atkins: Yes.

01:14:30.060 --> 01:14:33.870
Because what I love, yeah, I, what I
love about the idea of following the

01:14:33.870 --> 01:14:39.570
child is it gives the, it gives the
child confidence, it gives the child.

01:14:40.560 --> 01:14:43.140
A sense of self that they learn to follow.

01:14:43.230 --> 01:14:45.930
Like, that's why it's so hard
for so many of us as adults

01:14:45.930 --> 01:14:47.010
to say, what brings you joy?

01:14:47.010 --> 01:14:50.010
Because nobody's ever really asked
us that question that cares about it.

01:14:50.010 --> 01:14:50.100
Yes.

01:14:50.100 --> 01:14:50.310
Right?

01:14:50.310 --> 01:14:54.540
And so when we're putting our child in
the position of being the leader and

01:14:54.540 --> 01:14:58.290
we're saying, I'm gonna follow where you
lead me, and I'm gonna be there to help

01:14:58.290 --> 01:15:03.660
you and mentor you and shape you, it
actually gives the child a sense of what

01:15:03.660 --> 01:15:06.270
brings them joy and what they want to do.

01:15:06.270 --> 01:15:07.410
And it's crazy.

01:15:07.890 --> 01:15:09.120
Kids don't even have that.

01:15:09.120 --> 01:15:12.390
They just wanna sit on a screen now
because that's, that's what they're given.

01:15:12.390 --> 01:15:14.400
They've lost that sense
of adventure in some ways.

01:15:14.400 --> 01:15:18.690
And so I think your method really helps
them reconnect with a sense of adventure,

01:15:18.690 --> 01:15:21.635
a sense of, you know, autonomy, adventure,

01:15:21.930 --> 01:15:23.460
Rupert Isaacson: exploration, play.

01:15:23.730 --> 01:15:24.330
Yes.

01:15:24.330 --> 01:15:26.490
These play, you know what, what's that?

01:15:26.490 --> 01:15:26.850
Yes.

01:15:26.910 --> 01:15:28.950
What's people, what's the old adage?

01:15:28.950 --> 01:15:31.710
They say you, you don't stop
playing 'cause you get old.

01:15:31.710 --> 01:15:32.940
You get old 'cause you stop playing.

01:15:33.285 --> 01:15:35.670
Amanda Atkins: Yes, yes, yes.

01:15:37.140 --> 01:15:39.600
Rupert Isaacson: If we're, if we parent.

01:15:42.150 --> 01:15:45.300
Follow the child where the child
doesn't allow us to stop playing.

01:15:45.960 --> 01:15:46.590
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

01:15:46.590 --> 01:15:48.810
And it's so fun and connecting
and you feel like, oh my

01:15:48.810 --> 01:15:50.520
gosh, I actually like my kid.

01:15:50.700 --> 01:15:50.760
Yeah.

01:15:50.760 --> 01:15:51.600
My kid's funny.

01:15:51.780 --> 01:15:53.010
I wanna spend time with them.

01:15:53.010 --> 01:15:53.430
They're actually

01:15:53.430 --> 01:15:54.300
Rupert Isaacson: good company.

01:15:54.660 --> 01:15:55.440
Amanda Atkins: That's right.

01:15:55.440 --> 01:15:56.070
I love that.

01:15:56.070 --> 01:15:56.400
Interesting.

01:15:56.430 --> 01:15:56.910
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:15:56.970 --> 01:15:57.210
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

01:15:57.540 --> 01:15:59.700
Rupert Isaacson: Doesn't mean
sometimes you don't, you know, get

01:15:59.700 --> 01:16:00.930
exhausted and frustrated again.

01:16:00.930 --> 01:16:01.140
Of course.

01:16:01.170 --> 01:16:01.290
Or

01:16:01.290 --> 01:16:03.150
Amanda Atkins: you don't have, you
have to discipline from time to time.

01:16:03.150 --> 01:16:05.220
This is all real things
of parenting, you know?

01:16:05.370 --> 01:16:05.850
Yes.

01:16:06.480 --> 01:16:08.850
Rupert Isaacson: But it's
still No, I, I so agree.

01:16:08.950 --> 01:16:11.080
That we're, what we're
really presented with is an

01:16:11.080 --> 01:16:12.970
antagonistic, an antagonism model.

01:16:12.970 --> 01:16:13.300
Amanda Atkins: Yes.

01:16:13.810 --> 01:16:13.990
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:16:13.990 --> 01:16:19.270
And also to tell the kid,
don't be a kid again, I'm gonna

01:16:19.270 --> 01:16:21.670
quote my friend Joel, be a

01:16:24.850 --> 01:16:25.240
pen.

01:16:25.270 --> 01:16:30.040
Be, be a Philadelphia lawyer, aged 45.

01:16:30.585 --> 01:16:30.875
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

01:16:31.245 --> 01:16:31.595
Right.

01:16:32.095 --> 01:16:35.170
Rupert Isaacson: You know, and if you
don't do that, we're gonna give you drugs

01:16:35.800 --> 01:16:36.100
Amanda Atkins: to

01:16:36.100 --> 01:16:36.820
Rupert Isaacson: make you that.

01:16:37.540 --> 01:16:38.020
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

01:16:38.470 --> 01:16:39.640
Rupert Isaacson: And then
we'll all be miserable.

01:16:41.110 --> 01:16:44.170
Amanda Atkins: One thing I'm curious
about, do you feel like having your

01:16:44.170 --> 01:16:49.870
first son have autism, do you feel like
that helped you take a more relaxed

01:16:49.870 --> 01:16:51.070
approach with your other children?

01:16:51.370 --> 01:16:52.150
Rupert Isaacson: A hundred percent.

01:16:52.265 --> 01:16:52.555
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

01:16:52.875 --> 01:16:53.155
A hundred

01:16:53.155 --> 01:16:53.395
Rupert Isaacson: percent.

01:16:53.800 --> 01:16:54.010
Yeah.

01:16:54.010 --> 01:16:54.190
Me too.

01:16:54.190 --> 01:16:59.230
There there's, there's a part of me,
you know, I mean, they're not through

01:16:59.230 --> 01:17:00.640
their childhood yet, so there's

01:17:00.730 --> 01:17:01.090
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

01:17:01.270 --> 01:17:01.630
Rupert Isaacson: To come.

01:17:01.630 --> 01:17:04.180
But you know, there are some
things which they do and

01:17:06.820 --> 01:17:07.930
I'm like, yeah, I'll be fine.

01:17:08.740 --> 01:17:09.220
Amanda Atkins: Totally.

01:17:09.225 --> 01:17:10.390
It'll be like, I don't care.

01:17:10.390 --> 01:17:10.745
It's okay.

01:17:10.750 --> 01:17:10.930
It'll be

01:17:10.930 --> 01:17:11.020
Rupert Isaacson: fine.

01:17:11.020 --> 01:17:12.460
Yeah, I agree.

01:17:14.050 --> 01:17:14.590
It's like

01:17:14.650 --> 01:17:16.450
Amanda Atkins: just totally
changes the perspective.

01:17:16.450 --> 01:17:18.400
You're like, what matters.

01:17:18.700 --> 01:17:18.940
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:17:18.945 --> 01:17:19.065
Not

01:17:19.065 --> 01:17:19.425
Amanda Atkins: that much.

01:17:19.845 --> 01:17:22.630
Rupert Isaacson: It brings to some
version of World War I, you know?

01:17:22.630 --> 01:17:23.410
Yeah, exactly.

01:17:23.470 --> 01:17:23.710
Yeah.

01:17:23.740 --> 01:17:24.670
It's all fine.

01:17:24.720 --> 01:17:27.140
But also the other thing which.

01:17:28.760 --> 01:17:33.380
I, this is, again, it sounds cliche, but
it it does, it is worth drawing one's

01:17:33.380 --> 01:17:35.450
attention to childhood is very short.

01:17:35.870 --> 01:17:36.050
Mm-hmm.

01:17:36.300 --> 01:17:38.130
But it sets the tone for everything.

01:17:38.670 --> 01:17:45.750
So the more one can put emphasis into
making that as joyful as possible.

01:17:47.280 --> 01:17:50.760
Well, a, the more joy you are gonna
experience as the parent, but also

01:17:50.760 --> 01:17:53.550
the more you're gonna set that
person up with a habit of joy.

01:17:54.450 --> 01:17:54.690
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

01:17:55.110 --> 01:17:59.760
Rupert Isaacson: And you know, with
Rowan being my old first son now

01:17:59.760 --> 01:18:04.960
being 23 going on 24, be 24 in a
couple of weeks, actually, Jesus.

01:18:05.420 --> 01:18:06.110
How did that happen?

01:18:06.590 --> 01:18:07.070
Is that allowed?

01:18:07.700 --> 01:18:09.410
Let's talk to him about that.

01:18:09.410 --> 01:18:10.520
Don't, don't discipline him.

01:18:10.670 --> 01:18:11.030
Stop.

01:18:11.060 --> 01:18:11.270
Stop.

01:18:12.680 --> 01:18:13.340
But

01:18:15.680 --> 01:18:18.950
you know, he's now spent more
of his life not as a child.

01:18:19.790 --> 01:18:20.060
Amanda Atkins: Hmm.

01:18:20.525 --> 01:18:22.655
Rupert Isaacson: He's still
quite childlike in, in some

01:18:22.655 --> 01:18:31.085
ways, but he, yeah, you, you've
got this kind of 12 year thing.

01:18:31.085 --> 01:18:33.845
It's not, it's not, you
know, ass out of it.

01:18:33.845 --> 01:18:36.665
Now I know, again, I'm sure he,
I'm sure he's quite childlike

01:18:37.145 --> 01:18:38.675
Amanda Atkins: right,
but he's taller than me.

01:18:38.675 --> 01:18:40.895
He's, you know, got body hair.

01:18:40.895 --> 01:18:42.995
He looks like a man in
a lot of ways, you know?

01:18:43.025 --> 01:18:43.685
It's crazy.

01:18:44.405 --> 01:18:49.685
Rupert Isaacson: What do you
think is gonna be his future

01:18:49.685 --> 01:18:53.345
in terms of relationships and
what does he want with that?

01:18:53.645 --> 01:18:54.155
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.

01:18:54.425 --> 01:18:55.985
Rupert Isaacson: With, do
you know what he wants?

01:18:55.985 --> 01:18:57.095
Does he express what he wants?

01:18:57.095 --> 01:18:58.295
And what, what, what do you think?

01:18:58.345 --> 01:18:59.185
His chances,

01:19:00.325 --> 01:19:01.285
Amanda Atkins: I have no idea.

01:19:01.285 --> 01:19:06.115
He doesn't really talk a lot about,
you know, friendships or, I don't

01:19:06.115 --> 01:19:09.305
know that he's ever talked about
romantic relationships, you know, so he

01:19:09.305 --> 01:19:11.545
Rupert Isaacson: puberty, so
is he expressing sexuality?

01:19:12.505 --> 01:19:16.315
Amanda Atkins: Not really, not not
related to other people at all.

01:19:16.315 --> 01:19:18.865
I mean, it doesn't really seem like it.

01:19:18.865 --> 01:19:19.135
No.

01:19:19.135 --> 01:19:21.655
He hasn't really said anything about
ever wanting to go out on a date

01:19:21.655 --> 01:19:23.035
or like an interest in anybody.

01:19:23.035 --> 01:19:23.125
Yeah.

01:19:23.245 --> 01:19:23.780
I mean, he hasn't expressed

01:19:23.780 --> 01:19:24.500
Rupert Isaacson: any frustration.

01:19:25.495 --> 01:19:27.865
Amanda Atkins: He has not, I
cognitively, I don't know if he's

01:19:28.315 --> 01:19:31.405
totally aware of like how other
kids differ from him in that way.

01:19:31.405 --> 01:19:32.215
I'm not sure.

01:19:34.105 --> 01:19:34.675
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:19:34.705 --> 01:19:37.555
I mean, in, in some ways
that's a real blessing.

01:19:37.555 --> 01:19:38.305
He's sort of,

01:19:38.335 --> 01:19:38.815
Amanda Atkins: yeah.

01:19:39.295 --> 01:19:41.215
Rupert Isaacson: To some degree insulated.

01:19:41.515 --> 01:19:42.385
Amanda Atkins: I felt that.

01:19:42.385 --> 01:19:42.655
Yeah.

01:19:42.755 --> 01:19:46.805
Rupert Isaacson: But of course not every
special needs child by any means is

01:19:47.225 --> 01:19:47.915
Amanda Atkins: of course,

01:19:47.915 --> 01:19:50.225
Rupert Isaacson: many people are
coming, the moms are coming into

01:19:50.225 --> 01:19:54.785
you and their boys and their girls

01:19:55.085 --> 01:19:55.415
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

01:19:55.535 --> 01:19:58.985
Rupert Isaacson: Are beginning
to express these needs.

01:19:59.705 --> 01:19:59.975
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

01:19:59.975 --> 01:20:00.635
Rupert Isaacson: How do you help?

01:20:00.875 --> 01:20:02.405
How do you help them navigate that?

01:20:02.915 --> 01:20:03.185
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

01:20:03.185 --> 01:20:07.835
There's a whole chapter in my book about
puberty that discusses a lot of this and.

01:20:09.215 --> 01:20:13.565
A lot of it, I think for parents kind
of hinges on independence, right?

01:20:13.565 --> 01:20:18.185
It's like our kids, depending on
their cognition and their needs, they

01:20:18.185 --> 01:20:23.315
might either want more independence
than maybe they're able to have or.

01:20:25.385 --> 01:20:28.445
There's just can be that struggle around
independence and what that looks like.

01:20:28.445 --> 01:20:31.415
And obviously as parents, first and
foremost, we want our kids to be safe.

01:20:31.955 --> 01:20:36.335
And you know, when you're thinking about
things like dating, then it's like consent

01:20:36.365 --> 01:20:40.955
and the ability to consent and sexuality
and sex and all that is so scary.

01:20:40.955 --> 01:20:42.875
And you know, how do we,

01:20:43.085 --> 01:20:44.495
Rupert Isaacson: but
it has to be addressed.

01:20:44.795 --> 01:20:46.655
Amanda Atkins: It absolutely
has to be addressed.

01:20:46.745 --> 01:20:48.815
And there has to be room for it too.

01:20:48.845 --> 01:20:48.935
Yes.

01:20:48.935 --> 01:20:53.645
You know, like if your child is able to
consent and is interested in romantic

01:20:53.645 --> 01:20:57.305
relationships and you know, that is
something that we have to be able to,

01:20:57.485 --> 01:20:59.915
to allow that for their own development.

01:20:59.915 --> 01:21:00.065
Yeah,

01:21:00.065 --> 01:21:00.155
Rupert Isaacson: sure.

01:21:00.155 --> 01:21:00.270
It's a human rights.

01:21:00.310 --> 01:21:00.790
A human need.

01:21:00.790 --> 01:21:01.270
Exactly.

01:21:01.780 --> 01:21:02.270
Amanda Atkins: Exactly.

01:21:02.495 --> 01:21:06.425
And so I think a lot of what I talk about
with parents is not so much like how, how

01:21:06.425 --> 01:21:11.315
do they go about doing it, but how do they
wrestle with their own emotions around it?

01:21:11.315 --> 01:21:15.305
Because if you spent your whole life
taking care of your child and suddenly

01:21:15.305 --> 01:21:18.035
they wanna go out on a date with
somebody and everyone's consenting

01:21:18.035 --> 01:21:21.245
and able to do it, mom might feel
like, no, I'm not letting them do it.

01:21:21.245 --> 01:21:22.805
But she has to work through that.

01:21:23.130 --> 01:21:26.460
Instead of, you know, controlling and
keeping him close, she has to work through

01:21:26.460 --> 01:21:30.240
her feelings of letting go and allow
that, you know, so I think a lot of it

01:21:30.240 --> 01:21:31.680
is like, what is the parent feeling?

01:21:31.680 --> 01:21:35.790
So often it's like very hard to let go of
this person that they've, they feel like

01:21:35.790 --> 01:21:37.290
they have some sense of ownership over.

01:21:37.290 --> 01:21:38.430
'cause at the end of the day, we don't.

01:21:38.910 --> 01:21:40.590
Rupert Isaacson: Well, but
also a sense of responsibility

01:21:40.620 --> 01:21:41.850
to keep safe too, as you say.

01:21:41.850 --> 01:21:42.480
Absolutely.

01:21:42.480 --> 01:21:43.590
And absolutely.

01:21:43.590 --> 01:21:43.680
You

01:21:43.680 --> 01:21:43.920
Amanda Atkins: know,

01:21:44.840 --> 01:21:47.480
Rupert Isaacson: Treading
that line, it's so hard to

01:21:47.675 --> 01:21:48.170
Amanda Atkins: Yes, yes.

01:21:48.350 --> 01:21:48.800
It's like,

01:21:48.950 --> 01:21:50.570
Rupert Isaacson: you know,
the mother duck pushing the

01:21:51.320 --> 01:21:52.100
Amanda Atkins: Yes.

01:21:52.190 --> 01:21:54.715
Rupert Isaacson: Duckling out onto the,
of course, no longer a duckling, you

01:21:54.715 --> 01:21:58.310
know, right out water, but knowing that
there's alligators swimming arounds,

01:21:58.640 --> 01:22:00.500
but they don't go out on the water.

01:22:00.500 --> 01:22:01.490
They can't be a duck.

01:22:01.700 --> 01:22:09.140
They, it's, this is where I
feel tribe and community is so

01:22:09.170 --> 01:22:12.860
important because if there is

01:22:15.200 --> 01:22:16.580
more known.

01:22:17.440 --> 01:22:22.210
Familiarity between the people in the
group, then there is also accountability.

01:22:22.900 --> 01:22:23.800
Amanda Atkins: That's exactly right.

01:22:23.800 --> 01:22:26.680
So Asher recently wanted to
go to the homecoming dance.

01:22:26.920 --> 01:22:28.930
He's never done anything like this before.

01:22:29.010 --> 01:22:30.990
You know, he doesn't have his
driver's license, that kind of thing.

01:22:30.990 --> 01:22:34.425
But l one of the girls I mentioned
earlier that does the, the.

01:22:35.800 --> 01:22:36.910
Zoom sessions with him.

01:22:37.240 --> 01:22:39.520
He said that he wanted to
ask Elle to go to homecoming.

01:22:39.520 --> 01:22:42.100
So we texted her, she
said, yes, of course.

01:22:42.180 --> 01:22:46.080
And I'm thinking about that idea of
community because the restaurant that

01:22:46.080 --> 01:22:49.170
they wanted to go out to, there was
a two hour wait in order to get in.

01:22:49.170 --> 01:22:52.560
They didn't have reservations or whatever,
but he vent to that restaurant enough.

01:22:52.560 --> 01:22:57.360
It's just our corner little bar and grill
that they let the kids skip the weight and

01:22:57.360 --> 01:23:01.290
go in and, you know, and just knowing that
like, okay, the servers there know him.

01:23:01.830 --> 01:23:03.360
Our community knows him.

01:23:03.360 --> 01:23:04.530
Even in Chicago.

01:23:04.740 --> 01:23:04.800
Yeah.

01:23:04.800 --> 01:23:07.470
People know the places that
Asher visits, people know Asher.

01:23:07.470 --> 01:23:11.160
And so there's this sense of community
of like, yeah, our, our tribe.

01:23:11.800 --> 01:23:12.640
City it.

01:23:12.850 --> 01:23:16.330
A lot of people that interact with
Asher know him and know his limitations

01:23:16.330 --> 01:23:19.300
and his needs and just knowing that
even when I wasn't there, there

01:23:19.300 --> 01:23:20.890
were people that had eyes on him.

01:23:21.040 --> 01:23:23.050
Like, that's such a comforting
feeling to know that within our

01:23:23.050 --> 01:23:26.800
community it has almost a smaller
village feel to it in the middle of

01:23:26.800 --> 01:23:28.480
a huge city with 3 million people.

01:23:28.480 --> 01:23:28.780
But okay, you're one of

01:23:28.780 --> 01:23:30.070
Rupert Isaacson: those
integrated neighborhoods.

01:23:30.070 --> 01:23:30.310
Yeah.

01:23:30.315 --> 01:23:30.515
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

01:23:30.610 --> 01:23:33.550
It feels so good to know that
there's people on every corner

01:23:33.550 --> 01:23:34.990
that know him and know us.

01:23:35.360 --> 01:23:36.260
That's really special.

01:23:36.350 --> 01:23:36.740
You know,

01:23:38.090 --> 01:23:39.230
Rupert Isaacson: he's
going to a restaurant.

01:23:39.320 --> 01:23:44.000
How does he deal with his desire
to eat more food than he can?

01:23:44.270 --> 01:23:47.180
Amanda Atkins: So I coached Elle
before, you know, and that puts her

01:23:47.180 --> 01:23:50.810
in a difficult position 'cause she's
his friend, she's the same age as him.

01:23:51.240 --> 01:23:54.450
But I said, you know, he can, Asher
always orders off the kids' menu.

01:23:54.450 --> 01:23:55.470
That's like one of his things.

01:23:55.470 --> 01:23:59.370
And so he did that and I
just knew going into it, he's

01:23:59.370 --> 01:24:00.420
gonna finish all of his food.

01:24:00.420 --> 01:24:03.300
If there's ketchup, he's gonna lick
the ketchup, he's gonna get an apple

01:24:03.300 --> 01:24:04.680
juice, even though I don't want him to.

01:24:05.360 --> 01:24:06.080
I'm letting go.

01:24:06.125 --> 01:24:06.615
It's fine.

01:24:06.615 --> 01:24:06.815
Yeah.

01:24:06.830 --> 01:24:07.730
It's one night.

01:24:07.730 --> 01:24:08.240
Rupert Isaacson: It's fine.

01:24:08.245 --> 01:24:10.580
But he is, he not gonna want
to just keep ordering and keep

01:24:10.580 --> 01:24:11.750
ordering and keep ordering.

01:24:12.230 --> 01:24:15.020
Amanda Atkins: I just knew Al wouldn't
let him, you know, Al would, you know,

01:24:15.140 --> 01:24:18.770
I guess said, let him order what he
orders and you know, just one thing.

01:24:18.770 --> 01:24:21.980
And he even like, brought our credit
card so that he could pay for it,

01:24:21.980 --> 01:24:23.210
like to be the gentleman and stuff.

01:24:23.210 --> 01:24:24.110
It was very sweet.

01:24:24.110 --> 01:24:26.840
So yeah, it was, it was a cool experience.

01:24:26.840 --> 01:24:29.720
But knowing the community aspect that
there's, you know, there very well may

01:24:29.720 --> 01:24:31.880
have been people in that restaurant
that night that even knew him.

01:24:31.880 --> 01:24:33.020
Just people, you know?

01:24:33.050 --> 01:24:33.110
Yeah.

01:24:33.110 --> 01:24:34.100
Regular people eating there.

01:24:34.100 --> 01:24:36.380
So the importance of community.

01:24:36.380 --> 01:24:36.710
Right.

01:24:36.980 --> 01:24:40.030
Rupert Isaacson: And his relationship
with Al and the other young

01:24:40.030 --> 01:24:42.460
woman, he wants to zoom with them.

01:24:42.460 --> 01:24:43.810
He wants to spend time with them.

01:24:44.170 --> 01:24:44.560
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

01:24:44.560 --> 01:24:44.570
But

01:24:44.570 --> 01:24:44.805
Rupert Isaacson: he's not.

01:24:45.490 --> 01:24:48.820
Frustrated or heartbroken that he
can't have a relationship with them.

01:24:49.030 --> 01:24:52.030
Amanda Atkins: He doesn't seem to be,
because there's been points where one

01:24:52.030 --> 01:24:55.690
of 'em will maybe get a boyfriend or
something, and Asher just kind of knows.

01:24:55.780 --> 01:24:56.740
It's like no big deal.

01:24:56.740 --> 01:25:00.430
He never seems like I've said before,
do you, do you have a crush on her?

01:25:00.430 --> 01:25:01.270
Do you like her?

01:25:01.720 --> 01:25:03.610
And he's like, no, you
know, she's my friend.

01:25:03.610 --> 01:25:04.270
She's my friend.

01:25:04.270 --> 01:25:06.640
So I don't know.

01:25:06.760 --> 01:25:11.200
Rupert Isaacson: Yes, it's it's
such a, it's such a mystery.

01:25:11.650 --> 01:25:12.730
Amanda Atkins: It really is.

01:25:13.660 --> 01:25:15.430
Rupert Isaacson: This is
a hard question to ask.

01:25:15.430 --> 01:25:16.150
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.

01:25:16.390 --> 01:25:18.220
Rupert Isaacson: Can I
just ask it straight out?

01:25:18.820 --> 01:25:19.030
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.

01:25:19.300 --> 01:25:21.730
Rupert Isaacson: What's the life
expectancy in general with Prada?

01:25:23.470 --> 01:25:28.120
Amanda Atkins: It seems like it's, it
can range anywhere from, you know, young

01:25:28.180 --> 01:25:32.650
to old, but there's no, there's no like
evidence to say that he will die young.

01:25:33.340 --> 01:25:36.965
Rupert Isaacson: Is there a sort of bang
in the middle prognosis that normally.

01:25:38.740 --> 01:25:39.130
Amanda Atkins: It.

01:25:39.310 --> 01:25:40.900
So much of it depends on weight

01:25:41.050 --> 01:25:41.380
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:25:41.440 --> 01:25:43.180
Amanda Atkins: And health
around that, you know?

01:25:43.180 --> 01:25:43.240
Yeah.

01:25:43.240 --> 01:25:44.590
Health around all of that.

01:25:44.590 --> 01:25:49.020
And so, you know, there's a lot of other
things like sleep apnea or things like

01:25:49.020 --> 01:25:50.970
that that can definitely impact life.

01:25:50.970 --> 01:25:53.670
But as it stands right now,
there's no reason that Asher

01:25:53.670 --> 01:25:57.810
would not live to be, you know,
60 or 60 years old, give or take.

01:25:58.110 --> 01:25:58.260
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:25:58.265 --> 01:25:59.280
Amanda Atkins: Young, young.

01:25:59.280 --> 01:26:00.930
I mean, we're not talking 80 or nine.

01:26:00.930 --> 01:26:02.070
Also young by, by all standards

01:26:02.070 --> 01:26:02.280
Rupert Isaacson: now.

01:26:02.280 --> 01:26:02.550
Yeah.

01:26:02.550 --> 01:26:04.560
Not young by 14th century
standards, you know?

01:26:04.560 --> 01:26:04.830
Correct.

01:26:04.935 --> 01:26:05.425
Correct.

01:26:05.425 --> 01:26:05.705
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

01:26:05.705 --> 01:26:05.875
Yeah, yeah.

01:26:05.875 --> 01:26:05.885
Yeah.

01:26:07.350 --> 01:26:11.130
Rupert Isaacson: So, I, I
didn't know about sleep apnea.

01:26:11.190 --> 01:26:13.230
I was gonna go somewhere else
for this question, but just talk

01:26:13.230 --> 01:26:14.310
to me briefly about sleep apnea.

01:26:14.550 --> 01:26:16.230
Why is that a thing with, prior to,

01:26:16.800 --> 01:26:21.030
Amanda Atkins: so kind of the main
treatment for PWS is growth hormone.

01:26:21.030 --> 01:26:22.500
The growth hormone injections.

01:26:22.560 --> 01:26:23.010
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:26:23.010 --> 01:26:25.830
Amanda Atkins: And growth hormone
can lead to an overgrowth of

01:26:25.900 --> 01:26:27.550
adenoids and tonsils and all of that.

01:26:28.450 --> 01:26:28.540
Oh, okay.

01:26:28.540 --> 01:26:31.840
We did get, and so he's,
he's been followed for apnea.

01:26:32.530 --> 01:26:34.540
Forever since he's been on
the growth growth hormone.

01:26:34.650 --> 01:26:38.100
But he does have his adenoids and
everything removed, but it's still

01:26:38.100 --> 01:26:40.650
something frequently that we get sleep
studies just to check in on that.

01:26:40.650 --> 01:26:43.500
'cause that can be a definite
concern for people with PWS.

01:26:43.980 --> 01:26:44.910
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, good.

01:26:44.910 --> 01:26:45.660
That's good to know.

01:26:45.660 --> 01:26:45.720
Yeah.

01:26:46.120 --> 01:26:46.570
Okay.

01:26:46.570 --> 01:26:52.480
So, you know, if, for example,
longevity is to a large

01:26:52.480 --> 01:26:54.460
degree predicated upon weight.

01:26:55.120 --> 01:26:55.420
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

01:26:55.570 --> 01:26:59.830
Rupert Isaacson: And the best
people to probably be in control of

01:26:59.830 --> 01:27:01.720
that, are you and your husband Yes.

01:27:01.720 --> 01:27:06.580
Or the more reason to be the
providers of the service of the home

01:27:06.580 --> 01:27:08.320
that he eventually goes to living.

01:27:08.830 --> 01:27:09.520
Amanda Atkins: Totally.

01:27:09.910 --> 01:27:10.450
Rupert Isaacson: Totally.

01:27:10.540 --> 01:27:10.810
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

01:27:11.020 --> 01:27:11.500
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:27:11.590 --> 01:27:14.260
Amanda Atkins: I'll be in control
of the menu, like Right, exactly.

01:27:14.260 --> 01:27:15.430
It's really to that point.

01:27:15.430 --> 01:27:15.820
Yeah.

01:27:16.240 --> 01:27:17.290
Rupert Isaacson: So,

01:27:19.570 --> 01:27:22.390
given that that is probably
inevitably what you're going to do.

01:27:23.050 --> 01:27:23.350
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

01:27:23.800 --> 01:27:25.300
Rupert Isaacson: Have you
been thinking about models?

01:27:25.300 --> 01:27:26.710
Like, are you gonna form a nonprofit.

01:27:27.615 --> 01:27:29.445
Are you going to reach out for mentorship?

01:27:29.445 --> 01:27:33.105
Are there other people already doing
this with Pril that, you know who

01:27:33.165 --> 01:27:33.675
Amanda Atkins: I don't know.

01:27:33.675 --> 01:27:33.975
Any.

01:27:33.975 --> 01:27:35.715
Any, yeah, I'm not sure.

01:27:35.715 --> 01:27:38.915
I don't really know anyone else in
the PWS community that's doing this,

01:27:38.915 --> 01:27:42.605
but there, there are other people,
even in like the Chicago area that

01:27:42.605 --> 01:27:45.215
have kids right about the same age
that have talked about this as well,

01:27:45.215 --> 01:27:48.245
that are, you know, meeting to sort
of discuss what next steps would mean.

01:27:48.245 --> 01:27:51.665
But really it's all very new to me,
so I'm like right in the beginning

01:27:51.665 --> 01:27:53.615
stages of even thinking about all this.

01:27:54.785 --> 01:27:55.355
Rupert Isaacson: So I guess

01:27:55.355 --> 01:27:57.275
Amanda Atkins: you are who
I'm gonna be talking to.

01:27:57.365 --> 01:27:57.575
Yeah.

01:27:57.815 --> 01:27:58.310
We'll absolutely

01:27:58.310 --> 01:28:01.505
Rupert Isaacson: have that conversation
for anyone who's listening.

01:28:01.605 --> 01:28:01.995
Yes.

01:28:01.995 --> 01:28:03.345
You need to found a nonprofit.

01:28:03.625 --> 01:28:03.685
Yeah.

01:28:03.685 --> 01:28:04.915
And that is not a big deal.

01:28:05.315 --> 01:28:06.875
You can be up and running in six weeks.

01:28:07.265 --> 01:28:07.565
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

01:28:08.015 --> 01:28:12.795
Rupert Isaacson: And you are in a unique
position in the same way that some of

01:28:12.795 --> 01:28:14.295
the people I know who are physicians.

01:28:14.625 --> 01:28:17.865
Who run their, who have autism,
parents who've started things Yeah.

01:28:17.955 --> 01:28:18.795
Are a unique position.

01:28:18.795 --> 01:28:22.875
'cause you could run a family
practice out of that business.

01:28:22.875 --> 01:28:22.935
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

01:28:23.635 --> 01:28:26.665
Rupert Isaacson: And for example,
Rowan, my son, is now to some degree

01:28:26.665 --> 01:28:31.375
professionally himself in that he
helps me when I'm going round, doing

01:28:31.915 --> 01:28:33.385
particularly movement method trainings.

01:28:33.475 --> 01:28:39.475
He will talk to the therapists, the
caregivers, the parents who were training

01:28:39.475 --> 01:28:44.425
in our methods about what it is to be
autistic from the inside, how it felt to

01:28:44.425 --> 01:28:51.325
go from the kind of nonverbal, disoriented
fog he calls it, the fog to emerging

01:28:51.325 --> 01:28:53.905
from that fog and what that process was.

01:28:53.905 --> 01:28:55.585
A lot of autistic people
will talk about this.

01:28:55.585 --> 01:28:57.325
It's, it's, it's, it's really fascinating.

01:28:57.985 --> 01:29:01.705
What to do to ensure success.

01:29:01.885 --> 01:29:04.015
Why follow the child, you
know, blah, blah, blah.

01:29:04.495 --> 01:29:06.055
And so he's really

01:29:09.440 --> 01:29:10.540
professionally him.

01:29:11.890 --> 01:29:12.130
Amanda Atkins: Hmm.

01:29:12.310 --> 01:29:15.550
Rupert Isaacson: And I could see that if
you were to do that in the family therapy

01:29:15.550 --> 01:29:17.735
context with Asha, you know mm-hmm.

01:29:17.815 --> 01:29:21.760
It's, it's a, a wonderful thing if
Asha comes into the room or Rowan comes

01:29:21.760 --> 01:29:23.080
to the room, sits down Oh my gosh.

01:29:23.080 --> 01:29:26.380
And says, this is how it
is from my point of view.

01:29:26.685 --> 01:29:27.215
Amanda Atkins: Yeah, yeah.

01:29:27.220 --> 01:29:27.730
Yeah.

01:29:27.730 --> 01:29:28.420
Amazing.

01:29:28.900 --> 01:29:32.470
Rupert Isaacson: And then a
parent who's perhaps, you know,

01:29:32.470 --> 01:29:34.570
at the very, very start of that

01:29:35.590 --> 01:29:35.620
Amanda Atkins: Mm.

01:29:35.620 --> 01:29:35.800
Mount

01:29:35.800 --> 01:29:40.330
Rupert Isaacson: Everest that they have
to climb can say, well, actually, yeah.

01:29:40.810 --> 01:29:41.920
Oh wow, okay.

01:29:42.445 --> 01:29:42.975
That, yeah.

01:29:42.975 --> 01:29:44.535
That it's climbable.

01:29:45.195 --> 01:29:45.485
Yeah.

01:29:45.540 --> 01:29:46.590
That's reassuring.

01:29:46.660 --> 01:29:46.960
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

01:29:48.460 --> 01:29:52.750
Rupert Isaacson: So I could see you
being in a pretty unique position there.

01:29:53.140 --> 01:29:53.230
Mm-hmm.

01:29:53.290 --> 01:29:56.680
And actually being able to come in,
you know, not just being a service.

01:29:57.085 --> 01:29:58.615
User, but a service provider.

01:29:58.945 --> 01:29:59.545
Amanda Atkins: That's right.

01:29:59.545 --> 01:30:02.545
I love that too, because it's like,
we all got into this because of

01:30:02.545 --> 01:30:06.505
our, our kid, but it's also become
a passion to help other parents and

01:30:06.505 --> 01:30:08.125
other kids in these situations too.

01:30:08.125 --> 01:30:12.355
So it's, you know, the benefit is
there's so much benefit there that we're,

01:30:12.415 --> 01:30:15.775
we're doing the work that we're doing
so that other parents maybe don't have

01:30:15.805 --> 01:30:18.625
to start from the bottom or the, at
least they feel like there's some hope.

01:30:19.045 --> 01:30:19.345
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:30:19.345 --> 01:30:22.975
Well, and particularly when you've,
you've, you've stumbled upon solutions.

01:30:23.025 --> 01:30:23.415
Yes.

01:30:23.535 --> 01:30:28.365
You know, so when, when we stumbled
upon this thing and then we realized

01:30:28.365 --> 01:30:31.485
that it came down to this basic, but
then I need to know why was it working?

01:30:31.485 --> 01:30:32.325
Why was it working?

01:30:32.325 --> 01:30:32.895
And That's right.

01:30:33.015 --> 01:30:35.805
So then I, so, or something in
the brain and the nervous system,

01:30:35.805 --> 01:30:38.385
well, who understands brains and
nervous systems, neuroscientists.

01:30:38.390 --> 01:30:38.540
Right.

01:30:38.540 --> 01:30:42.015
So I went and spoke to neuroscientists
and said, can you explain why this

01:30:42.015 --> 01:30:43.155
thing that we're doing is working?

01:30:43.215 --> 01:30:46.755
And they could, and then we realized,
oh shit, we could replicate it then.

01:30:47.115 --> 01:30:47.355
Amanda Atkins: Right.

01:30:47.355 --> 01:30:47.925
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, that's good.

01:30:48.195 --> 01:30:53.445
But I went through a bit
of a, do I want to do that?

01:30:54.015 --> 01:30:57.645
Because as soon as you become
a bit of a public bigger right.

01:30:57.645 --> 01:30:59.835
You know, people are gonna
throw mud, blah, blah, blah.

01:31:00.135 --> 01:31:04.365
And I thought one, it got, it got to
because there's almost like a moral

01:31:04.365 --> 01:31:08.055
obligation because there are so many
parents out there who are in the

01:31:08.055 --> 01:31:10.065
position that I was in 20 years ago.

01:31:10.065 --> 01:31:10.425
Yes,

01:31:10.785 --> 01:31:11.265
Amanda Atkins: yes.

01:31:11.325 --> 01:31:14.685
Rupert Isaacson: Who are not
knowing what to do, who didn't,

01:31:14.835 --> 01:31:16.335
haven't gone and met Temple Grandin.

01:31:16.800 --> 01:31:17.300
That's right.

01:31:17.880 --> 01:31:18.460
And that's right.

01:31:18.460 --> 01:31:20.085
And so we stumbled into this technology.

01:31:20.085 --> 01:31:24.525
If we don't make it available,
that's not very nice.

01:31:24.855 --> 01:31:25.335
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

01:31:25.395 --> 01:31:27.105
Rupert Isaacson: There was a bit
of a temptation at the beginning

01:31:27.105 --> 01:31:30.135
to say, why don't we just stay
within the family and keep, of

01:31:30.135 --> 01:31:30.825
Amanda Atkins: course.

01:31:31.245 --> 01:31:34.905
Rupert Isaacson: And that would be easier,
but it wouldn't have been in the long run

01:31:34.935 --> 01:31:36.495
because there would've been no community.

01:31:37.185 --> 01:31:37.755
Amanda Atkins: That's right.

01:31:38.325 --> 01:31:38.745
That's right.

01:31:39.735 --> 01:31:41.565
Rupert Isaacson: And no support
and no support for him and

01:31:41.565 --> 01:31:44.055
no livelihood for him and no.

01:31:44.460 --> 01:31:44.880
Mm-hmm.

01:31:44.965 --> 01:31:50.235
So I do feel actually that, that
generally what I say is you, you're in

01:31:50.235 --> 01:31:52.065
this not only for the rest of your life.

01:31:52.500 --> 01:31:53.730
You're in this beyond the grave.

01:31:54.295 --> 01:31:54.585
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

01:31:54.590 --> 01:31:55.110
Yeah.

01:31:55.230 --> 01:31:56.970
Rupert Isaacson: You have
to set up these structures.

01:31:57.840 --> 01:32:00.390
So, okay, let's go.

01:32:01.650 --> 01:32:02.010
So as it

01:32:02.010 --> 01:32:04.860
Amanda Atkins: turns out,
our identity is full circle.

01:32:04.860 --> 01:32:07.530
'cause I started saying, I'm
not gonna find my identity

01:32:07.530 --> 01:32:09.090
in this, and then here I am.

01:32:09.270 --> 01:32:11.670
Rupert Isaacson: But that's such an
adolescent thing to say, isn't it?

01:32:11.670 --> 01:32:11.850
It is.

01:32:11.850 --> 01:32:12.990
Like, exactly, exactly.

01:32:12.990 --> 01:32:15.210
That seems that one even has an identity.

01:32:15.240 --> 01:32:16.215
Amanda Atkins: That's right, that's right.

01:32:16.215 --> 01:32:16.425
Is an

01:32:16.425 --> 01:32:20.070
Rupert Isaacson: identity that's a
fixed thing and not That's right.

01:32:20.220 --> 01:32:22.020
Endlessly mutable because
of course, what is

01:32:22.020 --> 01:32:22.740
Amanda Atkins: exactly,

01:32:22.800 --> 01:32:24.060
Rupert Isaacson: anyway, it's just

01:32:24.060 --> 01:32:24.570
Amanda Atkins: Exactly.

01:32:24.570 --> 01:32:28.290
And of course we're gonna be
changed forever by this experience.

01:32:28.290 --> 01:32:29.730
It's ingrained in us now.

01:32:30.240 --> 01:32:32.610
Rupert Isaacson: And I think by
parenting in general, let's say it

01:32:32.730 --> 01:32:34.410
special needs wasn't in the picture.

01:32:36.420 --> 01:32:38.730
You do exist for your children.

01:32:39.210 --> 01:32:39.570
That's right.

01:32:39.570 --> 01:32:42.180
That's, that is just a,
a biological fact to you.

01:32:42.185 --> 01:32:42.750
Yeah, you do.

01:32:42.990 --> 01:32:46.450
It doesn't mean you can't
pursue your own fulfillment.

01:32:46.480 --> 01:32:49.390
But that's still in service too.

01:32:50.110 --> 01:32:50.440
Amanda Atkins: Yep.

01:32:51.250 --> 01:32:53.530
Rupert Isaacson: And you actually
won't be happy unless it is,

01:32:54.730 --> 01:32:57.400
because we are just wired that way.

01:32:57.970 --> 01:32:58.210
Yeah.

01:32:58.260 --> 01:32:59.100
But I know that feeling.

01:32:59.100 --> 01:32:59.340
Yes.

01:32:59.430 --> 01:33:02.700
That's a very sort of twenties,
thirties way to think.

01:33:02.700 --> 01:33:03.060
Totally.

01:33:03.810 --> 01:33:05.370
I'm not going to be, yeah.

01:33:05.370 --> 01:33:06.090
I'm blah.

01:33:06.090 --> 01:33:07.200
That's not gonna define me.

01:33:07.200 --> 01:33:07.770
And it's like,

01:33:09.585 --> 01:33:09.875
Amanda Atkins: yeah.

01:33:09.990 --> 01:33:11.310
It's like the first thing
outta my mouth, huh?

01:33:11.310 --> 01:33:11.580
Yeah.

01:33:11.580 --> 01:33:12.540
No, he has a disability.

01:33:12.540 --> 01:33:12.780
Yes.

01:33:12.840 --> 01:33:13.020
Mm-hmm.

01:33:13.080 --> 01:33:16.920
Rupert Isaacson: But, you know, it
brings out the best in us, I think.

01:33:17.040 --> 01:33:17.700
Amanda Atkins: Totally.

01:33:17.820 --> 01:33:18.390
Totally.

01:33:20.070 --> 01:33:21.990
Rupert Isaacson: You know,
you wouldn't be who you are.

01:33:21.990 --> 01:33:23.250
You wouldn't have written this book.

01:33:23.880 --> 01:33:24.600
Amanda Atkins: Exactly.

01:33:24.690 --> 01:33:26.520
Rupert Isaacson: You wouldn't
have become this family therapist.

01:33:27.000 --> 01:33:27.300
Yeah.

01:33:27.330 --> 01:33:30.600
Now, speaking of the book, I'd like you
to read a little bit from it, please.

01:33:30.690 --> 01:33:31.320
All right.

01:33:31.320 --> 01:33:31.340
All right.

01:33:31.590 --> 01:33:34.830
Amanda Atkins: Okay, so this is in
kind of in the last chapter, which

01:33:34.830 --> 01:33:39.600
is a chapter all about, it's called
a whole You, and it's all about how

01:33:39.600 --> 01:33:42.630
we find meaning in this journey.

01:33:43.320 --> 01:33:43.740
Rupert Isaacson: Okay?

01:33:43.950 --> 01:33:44.580
Amanda Atkins: All right.

01:33:48.150 --> 01:33:51.690
You have your own passions,
worldviews, and values.

01:33:52.140 --> 01:33:55.770
You have lived your own unique life
shaped by experiences from your

01:33:55.770 --> 01:34:00.270
childhood, culture, religion, and
all the other factors of your story.

01:34:00.630 --> 01:34:03.540
The good, the bad, the ugly,
and everything in between.

01:34:04.200 --> 01:34:08.640
Parenting a disabled child very
well may be your most life-changing

01:34:08.640 --> 01:34:12.935
experience, but there are many, many
other factors that make you who you are.

01:34:13.995 --> 01:34:17.895
Finding meaning in parenting a disabled
child can help you build a bridge

01:34:17.985 --> 01:34:21.405
from the person you were before your
child was born, to the person you

01:34:21.405 --> 01:34:23.505
are now and who you will become.

01:34:24.105 --> 01:34:28.545
This work can lead you to a choice,
reinforce a worldview, make a

01:34:28.545 --> 01:34:32.655
worldview crumble, or light a fire
inside you to create something that

01:34:32.655 --> 01:34:34.275
makes the world a better place.

01:34:34.755 --> 01:34:37.035
The question is, who are you?

01:34:37.485 --> 01:34:38.685
Who is the whole you?

01:34:38.775 --> 01:34:43.215
In light of, not in spite of your role
as the parent to a disabled child,

01:34:43.785 --> 01:34:49.605
your parenting experience has no doubt
changed you, but your core self, values,

01:34:49.605 --> 01:34:53.085
passions, fears, joys, it's all there.

01:34:53.355 --> 01:34:57.045
And it's important that you give
yourself permission to be the whole you

01:34:57.285 --> 01:35:01.005
as you consider your sense of self and
where you find meaning in your life.

01:35:01.680 --> 01:35:04.260
I'll never dismiss the hard
parts of parenting a disabled

01:35:04.260 --> 01:35:08.190
child, but with the lowest lows
come some of the highest highs.

01:35:08.550 --> 01:35:11.760
When you've spent endless hours in
physical therapy with your child,

01:35:12.030 --> 01:35:15.540
watching them muster up all their
strength to tackle a milestone, is

01:35:15.540 --> 01:35:21.090
earth shattering in the best way, seeing
your baby smile, make eye contact,

01:35:21.090 --> 01:35:23.070
come out of a surgery or seizure?

01:35:23.490 --> 01:35:27.930
These are the moments where you find
real meaning in life on a larger scale.

01:35:28.080 --> 01:35:32.070
Applying your awareness of disability to
your worldview can look like realizing

01:35:32.070 --> 01:35:36.780
that disability is a normal part of
diversity and seeing beauty in all people.

01:35:37.650 --> 01:35:41.310
This is both simple and
revolutionary all at the same time.

01:35:42.060 --> 01:35:45.450
Being the parent of a disabled
child has fundamentally changed

01:35:45.450 --> 01:35:46.590
the way I view the world.

01:35:47.040 --> 01:35:51.120
I now understand that all emotions,
not just the pleasurable ones

01:35:51.240 --> 01:35:52.590
are meant to be part of life.

01:35:53.220 --> 01:35:55.470
I now know that the goal is not pleasure.

01:35:55.800 --> 01:35:57.570
The goal is not perfection.

01:35:57.975 --> 01:36:01.395
What is the goal you ask to
be present through all of it?

01:36:01.875 --> 01:36:05.445
There is so much beauty and value
scattered throughout the human.

01:36:05.450 --> 01:36:08.080
The the experience of
parenting a disabled child.

01:36:08.590 --> 01:36:13.150
We get to be a companion to our child
through all of life's ups and downs.

01:36:13.660 --> 01:36:18.640
Parenting is the hardest job but parenting
a disabled child with compassion,

01:36:18.880 --> 01:36:23.980
advocacy, vulnerability, and balance,
that's often the hardest, hardest job.

01:36:24.730 --> 01:36:28.000
We are the keepers of our
child's life, often responsible

01:36:28.000 --> 01:36:31.960
for decision making and future
planning, and not just for 18 years.

01:36:32.230 --> 01:36:34.720
It could last one year
or it could last 60.

01:36:34.990 --> 01:36:37.630
And if I'm being honest,
either option terrifies me.

01:36:38.260 --> 01:36:39.880
I can do it, and so can you.

01:36:40.540 --> 01:36:44.530
Scattered amid the joy and grief
somewhere under all the caretaking

01:36:44.530 --> 01:36:46.270
and responsibility is you.

01:36:46.660 --> 01:36:48.520
You're not the same
person you were before.

01:36:48.520 --> 01:36:50.350
Parenting through your world, upside down.

01:36:50.620 --> 01:36:52.420
You've changed, but you're in there.

01:36:52.840 --> 01:36:55.090
You're allowed to be
more than just a parent.

01:36:55.450 --> 01:36:59.680
You're allowed to have complex emotions
about your parenting experience and

01:36:59.680 --> 01:37:03.520
not feel like you have to add the
caveat, but I love my child so much

01:37:03.790 --> 01:37:06.760
because love and pain can coexist.

01:37:07.840 --> 01:37:11.110
I've often heard people say something
like, take care of yourself.

01:37:11.110 --> 01:37:12.160
You owe it to your child.

01:37:12.760 --> 01:37:15.725
But that rhetoric is part of what
makes us feel guilty about having

01:37:16.120 --> 01:37:18.250
complex emotions about parenting.

01:37:18.880 --> 01:37:22.240
Our child cannot be the sole
motivation for our wellbeing.

01:37:22.840 --> 01:37:27.370
You deserve to be fully whole a person
who feels all the emotions without

01:37:27.370 --> 01:37:31.810
self-judgment, a person who advocates
for their child and for themselves.

01:37:32.170 --> 01:37:35.050
You deserve care, love,
and self-compassion.

01:37:35.650 --> 01:37:36.790
Take care of yourself.

01:37:37.180 --> 01:37:38.500
You owe it to you

01:37:42.700 --> 01:37:43.030
Rupert Isaacson: west.

01:37:43.030 --> 01:37:47.920
Live by, well, what's the first
thing you are gonna do for your

01:37:47.920 --> 01:37:50.020
self care when we're done with this?

01:37:51.040 --> 01:37:55.900
Amanda Atkins: Oh, I'm gonna go outside
here in a little bit and walk in the snow.

01:37:56.170 --> 01:37:59.380
It's like 30 degrees, but
you gotta get out there.

01:37:59.680 --> 01:37:59.890
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:37:59.890 --> 01:38:00.040
Out there.

01:38:00.400 --> 01:38:01.570
And what are gonna do?

01:38:01.570 --> 01:38:02.950
What, what, what, what?

01:38:02.950 --> 01:38:05.500
What are you gonna do for
joy while you're out there?

01:38:06.160 --> 01:38:10.240
Amanda Atkins: You know, I
love just seeing the birds,

01:38:10.570 --> 01:38:13.300
smelling the smells of the snow.

01:38:14.050 --> 01:38:15.460
Just slowing down for a minute.

01:38:15.580 --> 01:38:16.600
Just slowing down for a minute.

01:38:16.630 --> 01:38:17.590
Got a busy day, a

01:38:17.590 --> 01:38:18.130
Rupert Isaacson: busy week.

01:38:18.250 --> 01:38:18.625
Well, but what, what?

01:38:18.910 --> 01:38:20.440
You identified two things there.

01:38:20.470 --> 01:38:21.910
You're gonna go and observe nature.

01:38:22.360 --> 01:38:22.900
Amanda Atkins: Yes.

01:38:26.230 --> 01:38:29.050
Rupert Isaacson: When
you go and self care,

01:38:31.270 --> 01:38:34.570
is that your first
go-to, to observe nature?

01:38:38.005 --> 01:38:38.995
Amanda Atkins: Yeah, it is.

01:38:38.995 --> 01:38:42.085
Whether it's outside or inside my dog.

01:38:42.235 --> 01:38:42.445
Yeah.

01:38:42.655 --> 01:38:44.065
Birds weather.

01:38:44.155 --> 01:38:44.275
Yeah.

01:38:44.425 --> 01:38:44.965
Leaves,

01:38:45.865 --> 01:38:46.015
yeah.

01:38:46.015 --> 01:38:47.575
Smells, yeah.

01:38:47.635 --> 01:38:48.415
Nature for me.

01:38:48.415 --> 01:38:48.955
For sure.

01:38:50.395 --> 01:38:51.685
Rupert Isaacson: It's so
interesting, isn't it?

01:38:51.685 --> 01:38:55.345
It's, it's, it's, it's the thing
that is not talked about in therapy.

01:38:55.555 --> 01:38:55.795
Yeah.

01:38:55.805 --> 01:38:56.105
Yeah.

01:38:56.645 --> 01:39:01.265
And I remember when I was going
through therapy talk therapy

01:39:01.265 --> 01:39:02.615
Amanda Atkins: mm-hmm.

01:39:02.675 --> 01:39:04.685
Rupert Isaacson: And I was thinking,
sitting there thinking, wow, I

01:39:04.685 --> 01:39:07.745
know more about the brain than
this person talking to me does.

01:39:07.955 --> 01:39:08.045
Right.

01:39:08.045 --> 01:39:08.765
What I'm talking to.

01:39:09.065 --> 01:39:14.945
I know that sitting here in this chair
in this room is not gonna do the trick.

01:39:15.545 --> 01:39:15.725
No.

01:39:16.145 --> 01:39:20.195
I need the move, I need
movement for my brain.

01:39:20.225 --> 01:39:20.495
Yep.

01:39:20.495 --> 01:39:21.905
I need endorphins.

01:39:21.905 --> 01:39:25.175
I need neuro BDNF, brain derived
neurotrophic plaque factor.

01:39:25.475 --> 01:39:25.565
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.

01:39:25.805 --> 01:39:27.875
Rupert Isaacson: Neuroplasticity
moving around in nature.

01:39:27.875 --> 01:39:28.355
I need

01:39:28.415 --> 01:39:28.775
Amanda Atkins: Yep.

01:39:28.985 --> 01:39:31.715
Rupert Isaacson: The
habitat that my organism.

01:39:32.210 --> 01:39:33.835
Requires in order to mm-hmm.

01:39:33.915 --> 01:39:34.555
Do wellbeing.

01:39:35.630 --> 01:39:41.780
And it's so interesting to me that within
the therapy thing, it's, and there are

01:39:41.780 --> 01:39:43.610
people, like I'm a nature therapist,

01:39:44.270 --> 01:39:44.630
Amanda Atkins: right?

01:39:45.380 --> 01:39:49.760
Rupert Isaacson: But the average
therapy that has come outta the sort

01:39:49.760 --> 01:39:52.850
of 19th century JGI and Freudian

01:39:52.910 --> 01:39:53.900
Amanda Atkins: mm-hmm.

01:39:53.906 --> 01:39:54.135
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:39:54.355 --> 01:39:59.000
Psycho-analysis, and then
on from there only looks at

01:39:59.000 --> 01:40:00.680
nature in terms of archetypes.

01:40:01.310 --> 01:40:01.640
Right.

01:40:01.710 --> 01:40:03.390
And symbolism

01:40:04.200 --> 01:40:07.260
Amanda Atkins: and does therapy in these
little rooms with flu life, they were

01:40:07.290 --> 01:40:11.070
Rupert Isaacson: these like blokes,
these academics who like sat in rooms

01:40:11.520 --> 01:40:11.820
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

01:40:11.820 --> 01:40:12.870
Rupert Isaacson: In Vienna, you know.

01:40:13.500 --> 01:40:14.400
Amanda Atkins: Yeah, exactly.

01:40:15.450 --> 01:40:17.730
Rupert Isaacson: And, and,
and obsessed about stuff.

01:40:18.360 --> 01:40:18.690
Amanda Atkins: Yep.

01:40:18.810 --> 01:40:19.350
Rupert Isaacson: But

01:40:21.810 --> 01:40:26.550
interestingly, the best therapists
I've ever come across, human ones are.

01:40:29.010 --> 01:40:32.610
Kalahari, koan, Bushman,
shamans, hunter, gatherer.

01:40:32.820 --> 01:40:32.910
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.

01:40:33.180 --> 01:40:38.130
Rupert Isaacson: Healers living
in that authentic human way.

01:40:38.640 --> 01:40:39.270
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.

01:40:40.410 --> 01:40:40.800
Rupert Isaacson: And

01:40:44.550 --> 01:40:48.540
I like the fact that when I asked you the
question, what are you gonna go do now?

01:40:48.570 --> 01:40:49.440
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.

01:40:49.680 --> 01:40:49.710
He

01:40:49.710 --> 01:40:52.710
Rupert Isaacson: basically said, I'm
gonna go out in the snow, observe.

01:40:52.740 --> 01:40:53.010
Yeah.

01:40:53.340 --> 01:40:55.020
Smell the snow and observe the birds.

01:40:55.800 --> 01:40:56.190
Amanda Atkins: Yep.

01:40:56.370 --> 01:41:00.150
Rupert Isaacson: What I'm gonna go do,
'cause I'm six, seven hours ahead of you

01:41:00.720 --> 01:41:01.140
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

01:41:01.680 --> 01:41:04.170
Rupert Isaacson: Is I'm going to
go downstairs and sit by the fire

01:41:04.950 --> 01:41:05.280
Amanda Atkins: Yep.

01:41:05.580 --> 01:41:06.600
Rupert Isaacson: By with my children.

01:41:06.600 --> 01:41:08.070
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.

01:41:08.130 --> 01:41:10.110
Rupert Isaacson: Which
is also nature, you know.

01:41:10.110 --> 01:41:10.920
Amanda Atkins: That's right.

01:41:10.980 --> 01:41:11.430
Yeah.

01:41:11.430 --> 01:41:11.440
Yeah.

01:41:11.440 --> 01:41:14.040
Rupert Isaacson: And, and listen
to the wind, you know, around

01:41:14.160 --> 01:41:16.200
the old farmhouse and pet.

01:41:16.200 --> 01:41:16.800
Love it.

01:41:17.370 --> 01:41:17.820
My dog.

01:41:18.750 --> 01:41:19.140
Amanda Atkins: Yep.

01:41:19.140 --> 01:41:19.200
Yeah.

01:41:19.200 --> 01:41:19.210
Yep.

01:41:20.175 --> 01:41:23.010
Rupert Isaacson: And also talk
to my wife and my children, which

01:41:23.010 --> 01:41:24.450
is tribe, which is also nature.

01:41:24.450 --> 01:41:24.720
Right.

01:41:25.245 --> 01:41:25.395
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

01:41:25.505 --> 01:41:28.985
Rupert Isaacson: It is simpler, I
think, I think, than we think it is.

01:41:29.615 --> 01:41:29.825
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.

01:41:31.865 --> 01:41:36.005
Rupert Isaacson: But it can also
be hard to access nature if you are

01:41:36.395 --> 01:41:41.465
sitting in an apartment in a tower
block in Queens or, yes, Tokyo.

01:41:42.590 --> 01:41:50.285
Then, so then, you know, you said also
I liked this nature could be inside too.

01:41:51.005 --> 01:41:51.095
Mm-hmm.

01:41:51.335 --> 01:41:54.005
So are there plants, are
there natural materials?

01:41:54.035 --> 01:41:54.755
Do you have a pet?

01:41:54.755 --> 01:41:55.145
Amanda Atkins: That's right.

01:41:55.775 --> 01:41:56.285
That's right.

01:41:56.615 --> 01:41:56.975
Rupert Isaacson: Are there, yeah.

01:41:58.235 --> 01:42:01.655
These things are of such
paramount importance

01:42:02.135 --> 01:42:02.495
Amanda Atkins: mm-hmm.

01:42:02.795 --> 01:42:06.335
Rupert Isaacson: Overlooked, but I
think sometimes can be the difference

01:42:06.335 --> 01:42:08.465
between survival and non survival.

01:42:08.930 --> 01:42:09.420
Totally.

01:42:10.775 --> 01:42:10.955
Totally.

01:42:14.375 --> 01:42:14.945
And they bring joy.

01:42:14.945 --> 01:42:15.035
Mm-hmm.

01:42:20.315 --> 01:42:21.065
So,

01:42:23.675 --> 01:42:24.215
okay.

01:42:24.995 --> 01:42:28.595
I think people will probably
want to contact you and find you.

01:42:29.315 --> 01:42:31.895
How do they find Dr.

01:42:31.895 --> 01:42:32.315
Joy?

01:42:32.375 --> 01:42:35.105
Yeah, I like that.

01:42:35.105 --> 01:42:37.030
And yeah, you can yeah.

01:42:37.340 --> 01:42:42.095
Tell people how they can reach out to
you and, and get mentorship from you

01:42:42.095 --> 01:42:44.165
and find your book and all of that.

01:42:44.170 --> 01:42:44.310
Okay.

01:42:44.405 --> 01:42:44.645
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

01:42:44.645 --> 01:42:46.505
You can find my book really anywhere.

01:42:46.505 --> 01:42:49.445
Books are sold online or if you
wanna go to your local bookstore and

01:42:49.445 --> 01:42:52.415
order your li there are in lots of
libraries in the United States too.

01:42:52.515 --> 01:42:57.075
And yeah, you can find me on my
website, Amanda Griffith Atkins.

01:42:57.135 --> 01:43:01.455
That's G-R-I-F-F-I-T ht KI s.com.

01:43:01.515 --> 01:43:02.805
Amanda Griffith atkins.com,

01:43:03.045 --> 01:43:05.975
and I'm on Instagram at Amanda Period.

01:43:05.975 --> 01:43:07.325
Griffith Period, Atkins.

01:43:07.775 --> 01:43:10.325
Those are the best ways to
find me or send me an email.

01:43:10.325 --> 01:43:11.105
I'm a real person.

01:43:11.105 --> 01:43:11.675
Very accessible.

01:43:13.100 --> 01:43:15.590
Rupert Isaacson: I imagine
that you do consultancies and

01:43:15.590 --> 01:43:16.610
things like that over Zoom.

01:43:17.030 --> 01:43:17.330
Yep.

01:43:17.330 --> 01:43:17.900
I do parent

01:43:17.900 --> 01:43:20.260
Amanda Atkins: consultations and
I always like to kind of say, it's

01:43:20.260 --> 01:43:23.740
not like when I'm doing a parent
consultation, it's not a how to parent.

01:43:23.950 --> 01:43:27.640
I'm not that kind of therapist that's
gonna tell you how to raise your child.

01:43:27.640 --> 01:43:30.700
I'm more gonna tell you how
to take care of yourself while

01:43:30.700 --> 01:43:31.720
you're raising your child.

01:43:32.080 --> 01:43:34.270
So keep that in mind too.

01:43:34.270 --> 01:43:34.450
Yeah.

01:43:34.750 --> 01:43:35.740
I'm all about the parent.

01:43:36.670 --> 01:43:36.910
Yeah.

01:43:37.120 --> 01:43:39.340
Rupert Isaacson: And I would like, I
would like to collaborate with you.

01:43:39.430 --> 01:43:44.660
I was leading a retreat this year in
Sweden in the wilds of Sweden is amazing.

01:43:44.720 --> 01:43:49.880
And one of the people who was on it
is a fellow special needs parent, and

01:43:49.880 --> 01:43:55.790
she started talking her daughter's in
her thirties and began talking about

01:43:57.860 --> 01:44:00.320
the long term trauma

01:44:00.320 --> 01:44:00.330
Amanda Atkins: mm-hmm.

01:44:00.770 --> 01:44:01.520
Rupert Isaacson: Of mm-hmm.

01:44:01.790 --> 01:44:04.310
The accumulated trauma of
being a special needs parent.

01:44:04.310 --> 01:44:07.250
That particularly sort of when
they get much older and you are

01:44:07.250 --> 01:44:09.200
now dealing with that kind of.

01:44:09.710 --> 01:44:10.670
Tiredness.

01:44:11.450 --> 01:44:11.750
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

01:44:11.800 --> 01:44:14.920
Rupert Isaacson: 'Cause you've been
in it two, three decades by then.

01:44:15.070 --> 01:44:15.340
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.

01:44:15.700 --> 01:44:20.350
Rupert Isaacson: And I'm realizing that in
our work we don't yet have that program.

01:44:20.860 --> 01:44:21.250
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

01:44:21.820 --> 01:44:23.775
Rupert Isaacson: So let's do it.

01:44:24.235 --> 01:44:24.895
Should do it.

01:44:25.435 --> 01:44:26.025
Amanda Atkins: Let's do it.

01:44:26.030 --> 01:44:26.470
Okay.

01:44:27.520 --> 01:44:29.020
Rupert Isaacson: We'll
bring Leanna in as well.

01:44:29.260 --> 01:44:30.145
Amanda Atkins: Yes, yes.

01:44:30.370 --> 01:44:30.640
Oh, Leanna

01:44:31.150 --> 01:44:33.070
Rupert Isaacson: Lad's listeners,
if you're listening to this, you've

01:44:33.070 --> 01:44:40.000
gotta go check out the Livery Ride
Free with Leanna Tank 'cause Yes, rad.

01:44:40.480 --> 01:44:43.210
And we having this conversation
if it wasn't for Leanna.

01:44:43.780 --> 01:44:44.170
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.

01:44:44.170 --> 01:44:44.290
Yeah.

01:44:44.290 --> 01:44:44.765
I love Leanna.

01:44:44.955 --> 01:44:45.245
Yeah.

01:44:45.670 --> 01:44:46.390
Well thank you.

01:44:46.900 --> 01:44:47.710
What a gift

01:44:48.035 --> 01:44:48.325
Rupert Isaacson: gift.

01:44:48.330 --> 01:44:49.330
Yeah, likewise.

01:44:49.330 --> 01:44:52.000
I look forward to the
continuing conversation.

01:44:52.030 --> 01:44:52.390
Amanda Atkins: Yep.

01:44:52.690 --> 01:44:53.650
Take care.

01:44:53.705 --> 01:44:54.125
Rupert Isaacson: You too.

01:44:54.745 --> 01:44:54.965
Amanda Atkins: Bye

01:44:56.170 --> 01:44:56.230
Rupert Isaacson: bye.

01:44:56.230 --> 01:44:56.980
Go enjoy this now.

01:44:56.980 --> 01:45:00.360
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01:45:01.190 --> 01:45:04.940
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