1 00:00:00,940 --> 00:00:03,250 Welcome to Digication Scholars Conversations. 2 00:00:03,300 --> 00:00:04,610 I'm your host, Jeff Yan. 3 00:00:05,070 --> 00:00:08,160 In this episode, you'll hear Part Two of my conversation with 4 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:12,450 Devon Thomas Jones and Thomas Murray from University of Arizona. 5 00:00:13,229 --> 00:00:17,429 Devon and Tom are Course Directors for University 301, General 6 00:00:17,429 --> 00:00:22,080 Education ePortfolio, University 101, Introduction to the General 7 00:00:22,080 --> 00:00:24,010 Education Experience, respectively. 8 00:00:25,090 --> 00:00:28,800 They are also both Associate Professors of Practice at the W. 9 00:00:28,839 --> 00:00:29,079 A. 10 00:00:29,089 --> 00:00:30,689 Franke Honors College in Arizona. 11 00:00:30,830 --> 00:00:32,619 in the Office of General Education. 12 00:00:33,370 --> 00:00:37,380 More links and information about today's conversation can be found On Digication's 13 00:00:37,410 --> 00:00:38,960 Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. 14 00:00:39,620 --> 00:00:43,139 Full episodes of Digication Scholars Conversations can be found on 15 00:00:43,139 --> 00:00:45,120 YouTube or your favorite podcast app. 16 00:00:45,679 --> 00:00:51,539 I'm A huge, huge fan of, um, the reform that's centered around reflection. 17 00:00:51,739 --> 00:00:56,940 I think that, you know, it is clearly, to me, one of those things where 18 00:00:56,970 --> 00:01:01,585 when we, when we earlier on talked We're talking about the durable 19 00:01:01,595 --> 00:01:03,445 skills, the transferable skills. 20 00:01:03,705 --> 00:01:07,945 Reflection is probably the, the linchpin that, that, that 21 00:01:08,195 --> 00:01:09,665 puts all of this together. 22 00:01:10,085 --> 00:01:14,935 Um, you know, and, and that, I think, um, Tom, you were saying that for 12 23 00:01:14,944 --> 00:01:19,334 years prior to this professionally as students, they weren't ever asked 24 00:01:19,494 --> 00:01:21,074 about what they are curious about. 25 00:01:21,274 --> 00:01:23,294 I bet you they weren't being really asked. 26 00:01:23,475 --> 00:01:27,695 Really on reflecting on anything of their own experience either, right? 27 00:01:27,735 --> 00:01:32,495 And, and, and it's just such a, it's almost like one of those things that, um, 28 00:01:33,425 --> 00:01:38,335 Most people in the world won't deny almost naturally that yeah, it's a good part. 29 00:01:38,375 --> 00:01:43,474 It's an important part of learning yet We don't carve out time and space 30 00:01:43,534 --> 00:01:48,494 in our curriculum in our day to day To have students do this reflection 31 00:01:48,734 --> 00:01:52,205 and I don't I don't even think that is reflection Is that kind of like 32 00:01:52,444 --> 00:01:53,795 some people think of it as well? 33 00:01:53,795 --> 00:01:58,244 There's that to touchy feely thing I'm gonna meditate and and it's not 34 00:01:58,255 --> 00:02:02,349 even that it's you know, we're really talking about we're talking about You 35 00:02:02,830 --> 00:02:06,560 You layering your own experience, making connections so that you can come up with 36 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:08,490 a strategy and how to solve a problem. 37 00:02:08,940 --> 00:02:12,360 You know, these are things that scientists do, artists do, 38 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:15,629 dancers do, you know, nurses do. 39 00:02:15,920 --> 00:02:19,380 Um, you have to do it constantly, every day, all the time. 40 00:02:19,750 --> 00:02:23,199 Um, and so it's one of, it's almost like, it feels almost like 41 00:02:23,199 --> 00:02:26,979 one of those skills that we just forgot that it was so important. 42 00:02:27,059 --> 00:02:28,969 It's so important, but we forgot about it. 43 00:02:29,379 --> 00:02:30,849 Um, and I think that. 44 00:02:31,054 --> 00:02:36,924 Um, what you are all doing, bringing that to be such a focus, is incredibly 45 00:02:36,924 --> 00:02:39,905 important work, um, in, in your reform. 46 00:02:40,014 --> 00:02:43,234 I mean, if you want to be excellent in your field, reflection 47 00:02:43,234 --> 00:02:44,255 is how you do that, right? 48 00:02:44,294 --> 00:02:46,804 I mean, when I was in high school and I played football, 49 00:02:46,815 --> 00:02:48,165 what did we do every Monday? 50 00:02:48,700 --> 00:02:54,620 We watched a videotape on VHS, uh, videotape of our football game for 51 00:02:54,620 --> 00:02:58,180 that weekend, right, and, and our coaches made us look at the, at the, 52 00:02:58,249 --> 00:03:00,790 okay, what, what did you do well? 53 00:03:00,799 --> 00:03:02,109 What did you do poorly? 54 00:03:02,150 --> 00:03:03,970 What do you need to do better next time, right? 55 00:03:04,419 --> 00:03:06,289 That is how you get better at playing football. 56 00:03:06,319 --> 00:03:07,384 That's how you get better at teaching. 57 00:03:07,765 --> 00:03:08,405 Anything. 58 00:03:08,505 --> 00:03:14,285 If you want to be a great engineer, you need to reflect on the engineering that 59 00:03:14,285 --> 00:03:16,595 you've done and how you make it better. 60 00:03:16,675 --> 00:03:21,615 And I think, I think what, what people forget about is that reflection. 61 00:03:22,685 --> 00:03:23,115 Yes. 62 00:03:23,135 --> 00:03:27,594 Is there something about being human that makes reflection somewhat natural? 63 00:03:28,150 --> 00:03:30,250 Perhaps, but it's a skill, right? 64 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:32,570 It's like any other skill. 65 00:03:32,670 --> 00:03:35,190 The more you do it, the more intentional you are, the more 66 00:03:35,190 --> 00:03:37,620 practice you have, the better you get. 67 00:03:38,089 --> 00:03:43,259 Um, and if you want to be the best of the best, that's how 68 00:03:43,260 --> 00:03:44,039 you're going to get there. 69 00:03:44,940 --> 00:03:48,439 And that allows our brains then, right, to recall experiences 70 00:03:48,439 --> 00:03:49,940 and apply them in new contexts. 71 00:03:49,990 --> 00:03:55,030 And that's ultimately What we're hoping students can do with what they've learned 72 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:59,060 and spent many years dedicating time and energy in the classroom to having 73 00:03:59,060 --> 00:04:02,649 these spaces where they can practice these different skills and apply them 74 00:04:03,009 --> 00:04:05,980 to course specific or case scenarios. 75 00:04:05,999 --> 00:04:09,489 And then when they're out in their fields and industries, they're able to better 76 00:04:09,489 --> 00:04:14,359 make those connections and to build in that time and intentionality around 77 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:20,800 purposeful reflection and to facilitate is really part of the learning process and 78 00:04:20,810 --> 00:04:24,440 ultimately what students should be able to take with them so that they can say, 79 00:04:24,740 --> 00:04:29,160 Oh yeah, I actually got something out of my degree because now I can see how I've 80 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:30,980 applied some of the things I've learned. 81 00:04:31,010 --> 00:04:36,339 Um, sometimes I think it's easy to assume that like when we ask students, 82 00:04:36,339 --> 00:04:38,140 right, like what are you curious about? 83 00:04:38,150 --> 00:04:41,224 And to carve out that time to sit with them. 84 00:04:41,685 --> 00:04:45,355 One feels almost indulgent, right, in a world where there's 85 00:04:45,355 --> 00:04:48,375 so many taps on our time. 86 00:04:48,415 --> 00:04:54,225 Um, and instead, like, that, that shouldn't be an indulgent activity. 87 00:04:54,225 --> 00:04:55,874 That, that requires work. 88 00:04:56,165 --> 00:04:59,985 And sometimes, sometimes it uncovers things about ourselves that maybe 89 00:04:59,985 --> 00:05:03,965 we We don't necessarily want to deal with quite yet, right? 90 00:05:03,965 --> 00:05:08,215 Or sometimes through that process, students come to realize, wow, 91 00:05:08,215 --> 00:05:11,424 I've, maybe I'm picking a degree path that is not right for me. 92 00:05:11,435 --> 00:05:13,685 And what do I, how do I grapple with that? 93 00:05:13,694 --> 00:05:14,004 Right? 94 00:05:14,045 --> 00:05:16,275 Um, those are tough questions. 95 00:05:16,314 --> 00:05:20,875 Um, and that's, as you mentioned, hard work, uh, to, to work through. 96 00:05:20,915 --> 00:05:23,605 Um, but it's, it shouldn't be indulgent. 97 00:05:23,635 --> 00:05:26,435 It shouldn't, that time shouldn't be reserved for the few. 98 00:05:26,515 --> 00:05:32,355 Uh, Like in their like small Liberal Arts on the grassy knoll, you know, whatever 99 00:05:32,355 --> 00:05:37,065 this like time of whatever we thought college was supposed to be like, but 100 00:05:37,515 --> 00:05:42,204 it actually should be embedded and time preserved in the curriculum because it is 101 00:05:42,204 --> 00:05:44,625 an essential part of the learning process. 102 00:05:47,104 --> 00:05:47,404 Yeah. 103 00:05:47,405 --> 00:05:54,364 I, I love that because I think, I think that, um, it's, I mean, you were 104 00:05:54,364 --> 00:05:59,335 saying, That, you know, maybe humans that naturally have that reflection, 105 00:05:59,614 --> 00:06:06,264 but, but if, but then why are we not making that something that we value? 106 00:06:06,374 --> 00:06:11,004 Like from, from, from day one, why aren't we saying, well, yeah, 107 00:06:11,004 --> 00:06:12,174 we are naturally good at this. 108 00:06:12,274 --> 00:06:13,544 Let's harness this. 109 00:06:13,924 --> 00:06:19,724 Um, so we don't do that, um, very well in, in, in the past and the past has been. 110 00:06:20,500 --> 00:06:22,440 Actually, you're going to figure that out because you're going 111 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:23,700 to be naturally good at that. 112 00:06:23,790 --> 00:06:29,320 We are here to transfer a ton of content to your brain and hopefully 113 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:32,899 you'll, you'll make sense of it all through your own reflection, right? 114 00:06:32,900 --> 00:06:37,130 It's, it's, it's kind of, it feels a lot like, um, Tom, you're 115 00:06:37,130 --> 00:06:39,060 using a sports analogy earlier. 116 00:06:39,270 --> 00:06:44,270 I feel, I feel like it feels a lot like when sports science wasn't very advanced. 117 00:06:44,270 --> 00:06:48,650 We just go, well, just go run a ton and then you'll be fast. 118 00:06:48,950 --> 00:06:50,969 And then later on, we realized, hold on a minute. 119 00:06:51,020 --> 00:06:54,259 It turns out there's nutrition, there's sleep, there's, there's 120 00:06:54,270 --> 00:06:55,430 strength, there's agility. 121 00:06:55,430 --> 00:06:58,099 There's a lot more nuance that we should be thinking about. 122 00:06:58,380 --> 00:06:58,740 Right. 123 00:06:58,810 --> 00:07:02,820 And so, yes, you still have to run, you know, to get fast. 124 00:07:02,820 --> 00:07:06,470 You can't, you can't ignore that, but, but, but there is a lot of other. 125 00:07:06,664 --> 00:07:08,224 Things that we do and we can do it smart. 126 00:07:08,645 --> 00:07:10,395 You know, Jeff, I, I love running. 127 00:07:10,405 --> 00:07:12,265 You actually hit a passion of mine. 128 00:07:12,305 --> 00:07:18,775 And I think it's a great example because maybe humans find reflection naturally. 129 00:07:19,254 --> 00:07:21,254 Humans are also built to run, right? 130 00:07:21,254 --> 00:07:26,535 Like if you look at, at the history of humanity, humans are actually 131 00:07:27,295 --> 00:07:29,595 elite long distance runners. 132 00:07:30,210 --> 00:07:31,390 evolutionarily, right? 133 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:34,249 Like, but you have to practice it, right? 134 00:07:34,249 --> 00:07:38,599 You do, if you don't use that skill, you, it doesn't, you, you lose it. 135 00:07:38,769 --> 00:07:42,059 Um, and so are we built to reflect? 136 00:07:42,099 --> 00:07:46,439 I think we are, but you still have to do it intentionally and thoughtfully 137 00:07:46,439 --> 00:07:52,010 and strategically and, and in a sustained way, um, to make it valuable. 138 00:07:53,515 --> 00:07:55,765 Well, you can almost train yourself out of it. 139 00:07:56,025 --> 00:08:00,914 If you, if we don't put value on it, that's a danger to, to humanity, right? 140 00:08:01,175 --> 00:08:09,935 I feel like there's a certain aspect of, you know, when we don't train ourselves to 141 00:08:09,935 --> 00:08:18,094 become reflective thinkers, that's when we become, Easily manipulated, manipulated. 142 00:08:18,125 --> 00:08:18,295 Right? 143 00:08:18,325 --> 00:08:24,925 Others easily being able to not being able to tell, you know, um, truth from, 144 00:08:25,325 --> 00:08:26,945 you know, things that are not true. 145 00:08:27,305 --> 00:08:30,865 Um, because we're not exercising that part of the brain. 146 00:08:31,594 --> 00:08:34,784 Um, and that's, that's a. 147 00:08:36,049 --> 00:08:38,120 That's a dangerous path to go down. 148 00:08:38,549 --> 00:08:42,640 Um, and if we only count on people to just do it naturally, they'll still 149 00:08:42,650 --> 00:08:47,250 do some of it, but especially if we keep telling people that doesn't 150 00:08:47,250 --> 00:08:51,040 matter, you just need to learn this, then they go, well, hold on a minute. 151 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:54,040 Turns out, even though I'm naturally good at it, I'm not going to, I'm going 152 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:55,669 to do, not going to do anything with it. 153 00:08:56,050 --> 00:08:59,970 That's, you know, that's, that's a, that's a serious problem. 154 00:09:00,660 --> 00:09:01,330 Now I know that. 155 00:09:02,750 --> 00:09:08,200 At University of Arizona, as part of what you've done, um, in this reform, 156 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:14,410 and actually, Devon, in your course, it's called University, University 301, 157 00:09:14,970 --> 00:09:18,630 and it's about, um, building portfolios. 158 00:09:19,824 --> 00:09:24,095 I have, I've been so lucky to have been involved with you 159 00:09:24,095 --> 00:09:25,895 all to do your portfolio work. 160 00:09:26,785 --> 00:09:30,905 You know, we just took a small part of it because you, you use, you know, the 161 00:09:30,915 --> 00:09:32,615 platform to do the work that you do. 162 00:09:33,015 --> 00:09:40,675 Um, but, but the big part of what I've been really, um, always been so, um, 163 00:09:42,465 --> 00:09:48,845 enamored by is your, um, dedication to making a learning portfolio. 164 00:09:49,505 --> 00:09:59,550 Um, can you Maybe talk about why portfolio and what is a learning portfolio versus 165 00:09:59,570 --> 00:10:01,540 any type, other types of portfolio. 166 00:10:01,540 --> 00:10:05,989 Um, and, and maybe, you know, so that people can get a little bit of that, 167 00:10:06,499 --> 00:10:10,710 little bit of a color of like, well, what does it mean when they have gone 168 00:10:10,710 --> 00:10:15,650 through Uh, UNF 101 and then they took some articles and come to my 169 00:10:15,650 --> 00:10:17,210 301 class and they do this portfolio. 170 00:10:17,420 --> 00:10:17,910 Why? 171 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:18,890 And what does that look like? 172 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:20,690 What does it actually look like for a student? 173 00:10:21,219 --> 00:10:23,670 Are they just basically writing a lot more paper or are they 174 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:25,109 not writing a lot more paper? 175 00:10:25,350 --> 00:10:25,970 What is this? 176 00:10:26,330 --> 00:10:26,580 Yeah. 177 00:10:26,660 --> 00:10:27,009 Yeah. 178 00:10:27,009 --> 00:10:27,579 Thanks. 179 00:10:27,660 --> 00:10:28,259 Thanks, Jeff. 180 00:10:28,310 --> 00:10:33,480 Um, what I think is particularly exciting and when I think about what 181 00:10:34,340 --> 00:10:39,630 Uh, makes a learning portfolio stand apart from, um, what we consider 182 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:43,860 maybe more external facing or showcase portfolios, career portfolios. 183 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:47,879 There's many different kinds of portfolios and they all serve different purposes. 184 00:10:47,919 --> 00:10:53,160 Um, and I had a colleague once kind of framed this well for me, um, as 185 00:10:53,179 --> 00:10:57,390 the primary audience member of a learning portfolio is the student. 186 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:02,620 And that resonates with us and so much of what we're trying to do is 187 00:11:02,620 --> 00:11:06,800 that the primary audience and the main stakeholder in students learning 188 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:08,870 and their degree is the student. 189 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:14,299 So they, that is where the effort and the work is. 190 00:11:14,834 --> 00:11:19,194 And really the learning happens is that when a, when a student gets a chance to 191 00:11:19,194 --> 00:11:24,805 say this is actually what I've learned, this is what's mattered to me, and this 192 00:11:24,814 --> 00:11:29,244 is what it's going to mean for me moving forward, and really almost in dialogue 193 00:11:29,244 --> 00:11:34,594 with themselves, right, their past self, uh, and their learning, that That's it. 194 00:11:34,594 --> 00:11:38,974 It's quite a profound responsibility and then gives us a sense of, okay, 195 00:11:38,974 --> 00:11:43,055 now I can actually talk about and see the connections that maybe I didn't see 196 00:11:43,334 --> 00:11:46,234 before, um, in my undergraduate career. 197 00:11:46,234 --> 00:11:49,874 So, um, I think that's, and that was a mindset shift. 198 00:11:50,135 --> 00:11:51,975 Two, for me, professionally, right? 199 00:11:52,005 --> 00:11:56,355 And it's something we still, like, when Tom and I meet with folks around campus 200 00:11:56,355 --> 00:12:01,345 and we, we have our little, you know, song and dance we do about the classes. 201 00:12:02,135 --> 00:12:07,155 That's a big, like, myth we have to debunk is what this portfolio is. 202 00:12:07,184 --> 00:12:12,605 And that, um, There's value when, in particular for some fields and industries 203 00:12:12,645 --> 00:12:17,105 and for some degree programs, right, um, having an external portfolio is 204 00:12:17,164 --> 00:12:21,015 a requirement and an expectation for, for their industry or their career, 205 00:12:21,574 --> 00:12:25,415 and that's not to say that, like, you can't have more than one, right, or you 206 00:12:25,415 --> 00:12:29,534 wouldn't have more than one portfolio as a part of your undergraduate experience. 207 00:12:30,005 --> 00:12:33,015 That would be, you know, if we were to think about, we would never tell a 208 00:12:33,015 --> 00:12:37,625 student, to have only one version of their resume or to complete one final exam 209 00:12:38,045 --> 00:12:40,264 for their entire undergraduate degree. 210 00:12:40,305 --> 00:12:43,574 Like, that would just serve no purpose and it has no applicability. 211 00:12:44,405 --> 00:12:45,989 Um, but rather with the, uh. 212 00:12:45,990 --> 00:12:47,400 The Learning ePortfolio. 213 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:53,699 It's responsive to, again, the call that we are responding to with students that 214 00:12:53,699 --> 00:12:57,170 I don't know, I want to be able to say I know what I learned and what value it 215 00:12:57,180 --> 00:12:59,089 has to offer for my General Education. 216 00:12:59,439 --> 00:13:03,990 And that's what they're prompted to do as a part of this portfolio experience. 217 00:13:05,039 --> 00:13:11,479 And sometimes the What they decide to include, um, may not be the things 218 00:13:11,479 --> 00:13:16,219 that their General Education instructor like per, you know, necessarily set out 219 00:13:16,219 --> 00:13:17,790 for them as a part of the assignment. 220 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:21,170 Sometimes the learning that they uncover through the reflective 221 00:13:21,170 --> 00:13:25,349 process is not necessarily what the assignment was designed to do. 222 00:13:25,379 --> 00:13:31,205 Um, and I think that that is, an important and profound insight when you Realize 223 00:13:31,225 --> 00:13:36,585 something from a learning experience that maybe you didn't expect to find um 224 00:13:36,655 --> 00:13:41,775 is one of I think the the key pieces of a learning portfolio that You wouldn't 225 00:13:41,775 --> 00:13:45,755 necessarily put out into the world, especially if it was something like wow, 226 00:13:45,755 --> 00:13:50,855 I learned that My team really struggled, uh, because of our time management, right? 227 00:13:50,885 --> 00:13:55,375 Like, I wouldn't put that on my LinkedIn, uh, necessarily, you know, but that 228 00:13:55,375 --> 00:13:59,045 would be important for me to understand and then to be able to say, next time 229 00:13:59,045 --> 00:14:04,275 I work on a team, I know I got to bring these skills to, to that team project. 230 00:14:04,395 --> 00:14:10,025 So maybe that was a long answer, but it's an exciting opportunity for students, 231 00:14:10,035 --> 00:14:14,484 um, to really get to say, this is what I learned and this is what matters to me. 232 00:14:14,535 --> 00:14:17,284 And here's how I'm going to apply that learning in my future. 233 00:14:18,685 --> 00:14:23,114 And I think part of that, um, that Devon was alluding to is this idea of like 234 00:14:23,124 --> 00:14:28,814 using a learning ePortfolio as a space where you can also showcase failure. 235 00:14:29,275 --> 00:14:36,180 And when we're talking about students who are so often so failure averse, Right? 236 00:14:36,209 --> 00:14:42,540 Like, not ever wanting to, um, kind of put under a microscope the 237 00:14:42,540 --> 00:14:43,910 things that they haven't done well. 238 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:47,870 Having this space where they can say, wow, I went back and here's a paper I 239 00:14:47,870 --> 00:14:49,900 wrote two years ago in my first year. 240 00:14:50,489 --> 00:14:55,500 And actually, this is not a very good example of critical thinking, 241 00:14:55,650 --> 00:15:00,430 but this is what I've learned since then through these other experiences. 242 00:15:00,469 --> 00:15:06,665 Like, that is, So powerful for students to be able to more intentionally think about, 243 00:15:07,314 --> 00:15:11,925 um, the things that they maybe haven't done as well as they wanted to, because 244 00:15:11,925 --> 00:15:14,594 that's also a part of learning, right? 245 00:15:14,605 --> 00:15:17,384 Is, is being able to, to learn from failure. 246 00:15:17,755 --> 00:15:21,835 I mean, going back to your football game analogy, unless you won every single 247 00:15:21,844 --> 00:15:25,015 one of those games, there will be some failures, and that's where you're going 248 00:15:25,015 --> 00:15:26,944 to have to learn and figure out how to do. 249 00:15:27,370 --> 00:15:28,490 You know, better next time. 250 00:15:28,770 --> 00:15:34,189 And I, one of the, one of the things that I, um, that was, that is, that is 251 00:15:34,189 --> 00:15:41,810 really, um, part of the inception of Digication as a platform, you know, for 252 00:15:41,810 --> 00:15:47,099 portfolios, it's called make learning visible, but I love people don't realize 253 00:15:47,100 --> 00:15:49,344 that when we say make learning visible. 254 00:15:49,505 --> 00:15:52,615 Is to make learning visible first and foremost to yourself. 255 00:15:53,775 --> 00:16:00,495 Um, because that is what powers the rest of, you know, how do you grow 256 00:16:00,495 --> 00:16:05,114 from that to, you know, potentially, like you said, making it visible for 257 00:16:05,114 --> 00:16:09,354 a potential employer or what have you, and you can edit and you can, you can 258 00:16:09,354 --> 00:16:14,015 curate and you can do, do a version of it that you make visible for them. 259 00:16:14,025 --> 00:16:15,005 That's appropriate. 260 00:16:15,075 --> 00:16:17,275 That's just being able to understand audience. 261 00:16:17,305 --> 00:16:20,925 You know, that's, that's, that's a, that's a, that's a simple thing to do. 262 00:16:21,275 --> 00:16:28,000 Um, But the idea that we get to just see it for ourselves, it almost 263 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:32,589 feels like you should be able to do it, except that we don't, right? 264 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:38,250 So if Tom, I'm going to go back to your football game, chess tape. 265 00:16:38,349 --> 00:16:41,560 If no one taped it, right? 266 00:16:41,579 --> 00:16:45,509 If no one taped it and no one on Monday said, let's sit and 267 00:16:45,929 --> 00:16:48,590 watch how we got our butt kicked. 268 00:16:49,340 --> 00:16:51,339 I was using the case. 269 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:51,750 Right. 270 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:55,640 But if no one forced you to do it, no one taped it, no one bothered with it, 271 00:16:55,700 --> 00:16:58,540 because we didn't care that much, right? 272 00:16:58,630 --> 00:17:02,180 Then on Monday, you would, you have missed one of the most 273 00:17:02,379 --> 00:17:05,649 valuable ways to grow, right? 274 00:17:05,670 --> 00:17:08,950 You would have just go, well, we got our butt kicked. 275 00:17:09,369 --> 00:17:10,829 I'm not sure why. 276 00:17:11,409 --> 00:17:16,429 Everyone just go run another 10 laps. 277 00:17:16,810 --> 00:17:18,450 I'm going to push back on that a little bit. 278 00:17:18,875 --> 00:17:22,224 I think, because there's two things that you mentioned that are important 279 00:17:22,234 --> 00:17:23,254 for the reflection to happen. 280 00:17:23,254 --> 00:17:26,794 One is that somebody videotaped it, and two is that somebody said, 281 00:17:27,364 --> 00:17:30,065 let's watch, let's think about this and think about what happened. 282 00:17:30,544 --> 00:17:34,905 I think the videotape is helpful, but it's not a necessary condition, right? 283 00:17:35,305 --> 00:17:38,114 The necessary condition is that you make time for it, right? 284 00:17:38,114 --> 00:17:42,975 That somebody says, sit down and think about it, because a lot of 285 00:17:42,975 --> 00:17:44,985 reflection happens without an artifact. 286 00:17:45,034 --> 00:17:47,234 I mean, our ePortfolios have artifacts, right? 287 00:17:47,234 --> 00:17:51,965 But, you know, If you develop the habits and skills of reflection, you can do that 288 00:17:51,975 --> 00:17:55,785 without necessarily having an artifact, but just thinking about your experience. 289 00:17:55,795 --> 00:18:01,425 So, I mean, I do a lot of, I do a lot of running and when I, after I run a race, 290 00:18:01,505 --> 00:18:05,464 I mean, I'm not racing competitively, believe me, but after I run a race, I 291 00:18:05,464 --> 00:18:08,705 don't have a videotape of that race, but I can still think about like, 292 00:18:08,745 --> 00:18:11,275 okay, how did I manage my nutrition? 293 00:18:11,285 --> 00:18:12,595 What was my mental state? 294 00:18:12,645 --> 00:18:14,475 How did training go leading up to that? 295 00:18:15,315 --> 00:18:17,465 Um, I don't necessarily have to have an artifact. 296 00:18:17,854 --> 00:18:19,424 in order for reflection to happen. 297 00:18:19,544 --> 00:18:23,864 Um, the, the necessary condition is that you make time for it. 298 00:18:24,530 --> 00:18:29,600 Yes, it's make the time and the end and being deliberate about like, Hey, you 299 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:32,830 know, I'm going to actually think, think about something that would have been 300 00:18:32,830 --> 00:18:35,939 painful in particular sometimes, right? 301 00:18:35,950 --> 00:18:37,490 Like it didn't go well, what happened? 302 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:39,800 Like I have to realize that. 303 00:18:39,810 --> 00:18:40,220 Yeah. 304 00:18:40,260 --> 00:18:40,969 And I think that's what. 305 00:18:41,420 --> 00:18:48,630 distinguishes a learning portfolio from, say, a cloud storage device, right, or a 306 00:18:48,700 --> 00:18:55,809 Google Drive, right, um, is that students are oftentimes prompted or, you know, 307 00:18:55,810 --> 00:19:01,040 sometimes are incentivized on their own to maybe save their work or they have 308 00:19:01,439 --> 00:19:07,850 whatever versions of their past, you know, English papers, um, but in life, right, 309 00:19:08,290 --> 00:19:13,920 as, as competing priorities happen, we, we document, we submit the work, and 310 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:15,739 then we move on to the next task, right? 311 00:19:15,770 --> 00:19:21,589 And, um, that is often what is also incentivized, right, in higher education. 312 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:24,640 Submit the work, I evaluate it, I determine that you learned the 313 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:26,509 things I was looking for you to do. 314 00:19:26,510 --> 00:19:32,645 And, What actually makes it a learning, the visibility part, right, the learning 315 00:19:32,725 --> 00:19:38,135 eat portfolio, is that now I actually have to go back and think about this 316 00:19:38,144 --> 00:19:43,144 paper, maybe revisit it again, think about maybe what were the conditions I 317 00:19:43,144 --> 00:19:48,074 was writing this paper in, right, um, and actually maybe the things I got out of 318 00:19:48,074 --> 00:19:54,215 it, and And to reflect in that capacity that that is something that you wouldn't 319 00:19:54,245 --> 00:19:59,554 necessarily be prompted to engage with if you're just here I am with my drive 320 00:19:59,615 --> 00:20:01,644 and my cloud device and moving on. 321 00:20:02,915 --> 00:20:03,255 Right. 322 00:20:03,465 --> 00:20:04,945 It's kind of like a one, two punch. 323 00:20:04,945 --> 00:20:09,035 You, you can have the experience, but if you don't get to process 324 00:20:09,045 --> 00:20:13,284 that experience afterwards, it just sits alone as an experience. 325 00:20:13,535 --> 00:20:18,754 And it, it did something, but it didn't do its full potential, like to, to really, 326 00:20:18,755 --> 00:20:20,445 you didn't really get most out of it. 327 00:20:20,765 --> 00:20:23,825 You, you got, you got, you get the first half, you know, you got the 328 00:20:23,825 --> 00:20:28,825 experience, but that experience did not mean as much as if you had been able to 329 00:20:28,835 --> 00:20:30,765 actually take the time to process it. 330 00:20:30,965 --> 00:20:35,055 And to make meaning out of it and to make connections in this experiences 331 00:20:35,255 --> 00:20:38,795 comparing to other experiences that you also have and layer them. 332 00:20:39,185 --> 00:20:42,774 Um, how do you think, let me ask you a little bit about 333 00:20:42,784 --> 00:20:44,215 now that you've done this for, 334 00:20:46,374 --> 00:20:50,104 look, you and, and like you said, your colleagues have done this for many 335 00:20:50,104 --> 00:20:54,085 years, but now it's really brought to the forefront, to a massive scale 336 00:20:54,115 --> 00:20:56,165 to thousands of students per year. 337 00:20:56,804 --> 00:21:00,905 Can we ask, can we talk a little bit about, so what's the outcome of this? 338 00:21:00,945 --> 00:21:03,385 Like what, what are students getting out of it? 339 00:21:03,460 --> 00:21:07,070 You know, and have you seen evidence of it? 340 00:21:07,070 --> 00:21:13,800 You know, like, uh, I think it must be so cool, Devon, for you to teach the, the, 341 00:21:13,810 --> 00:21:18,919 the, the, you know, the bookend, the, the, the other end of the bookend class where 342 00:21:18,929 --> 00:21:24,310 you go, well, these students coming out of, um, you know, courses directed by, by 343 00:21:24,360 --> 00:21:30,380 Tom, um, do they come out You know, coming to your class, being more reflective 344 00:21:30,910 --> 00:21:33,440 and, and how so does it, does it show? 345 00:21:33,470 --> 00:21:33,910 Yeah. 346 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:34,760 Yeah. 347 00:21:34,790 --> 00:21:40,469 I think what's been, um, one of the most, I don't know, unexpected benefits, right? 348 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:41,990 Particularly with teaching 301. 349 00:21:41,990 --> 00:21:46,969 Um, one of, one of the first kind of reflection questions students are asked 350 00:21:46,969 --> 00:21:51,280 in the first week of the class is, um, what's been kind of the most meaningful 351 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:54,444 General Education class you've taken to date and why, like, why is that? 352 00:21:54,665 --> 00:21:55,705 Why was it meaningful? 353 00:21:55,705 --> 00:21:56,725 What did you get out of it? 354 00:21:57,205 --> 00:22:01,515 And overwhelmingly, you know, there's many answers to that question. 355 00:22:01,515 --> 00:22:04,005 Students can choose whatever class they want, but the seems to be the 356 00:22:04,005 --> 00:22:08,955 most popular answer is it was my Intro to Gen Ed class, my UNIV 101 class. 357 00:22:09,155 --> 00:22:14,455 And usually the answer is I didn't see the value at the time, right? 358 00:22:14,825 --> 00:22:16,085 I didn't see the purpose. 359 00:22:16,485 --> 00:22:19,895 I, and actually now I understand, right? 360 00:22:20,045 --> 00:22:20,655 I learned. 361 00:22:21,450 --> 00:22:22,920 Like how to learn, right? 362 00:22:22,980 --> 00:22:25,120 I learned the value of reflection. 363 00:22:25,870 --> 00:22:28,330 You know, they point to all these different things that they got out of 364 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:33,279 the class that at the time they might not have seen or really cared much 365 00:22:33,290 --> 00:22:35,220 about because it's their first semester. 366 00:22:35,230 --> 00:22:39,229 It's, there's so many things happening in your life when you're starting a 367 00:22:39,230 --> 00:22:45,735 new program, you know, and um, That's a, that's a pretty profound insight, 368 00:22:45,774 --> 00:22:51,004 um, and I think quite powerful that we, we don't see otherwise oftentimes 369 00:22:51,004 --> 00:22:54,344 as, as faculty and instructors when we teach a one off class. 370 00:22:54,364 --> 00:22:59,544 Um, we see, see the students, we, we interact with them for a certain period of 371 00:22:59,544 --> 00:23:05,484 time and then we hope that what, you know, the messages that we hope to relay, uh, go 372 00:23:05,484 --> 00:23:07,894 with them and the show up somewhere else. 373 00:23:07,895 --> 00:23:10,864 Um, but it's not often we actually get to see that. 374 00:23:11,050 --> 00:23:17,220 Learning actualized, um, in, in real time or some time afterwards and I think that 375 00:23:17,580 --> 00:23:22,719 that's one of the most exciting things that I find, um, is that students, um, see 376 00:23:22,719 --> 00:23:27,450 the value and they just might not actually see it in the moment, um, they're starting 377 00:23:27,450 --> 00:23:31,650 to recognize it later and so that's not to say every student, right, comes to 378 00:23:31,650 --> 00:23:36,135 that realization or and even sometimes they point about, About the zombies class 379 00:23:36,135 --> 00:23:37,915 or what, you know, pyramids and mummies. 380 00:23:37,915 --> 00:23:40,895 And they're, they can talk about, oh, like, this is why 381 00:23:40,895 --> 00:23:42,235 I got this out of this class. 382 00:23:42,235 --> 00:23:46,895 And again, as faculty members, I don't teach that class, but now I can tell, 383 00:23:46,905 --> 00:23:50,185 you know, that faculty member, students are talking about your class and 384 00:23:50,194 --> 00:23:51,394 here's what they're learning about it. 385 00:23:51,414 --> 00:23:56,284 And if it's through their reflections or it's in their e portfolio, that 386 00:23:56,304 --> 00:23:58,304 opportunity to engage with that work. 387 00:23:58,324 --> 00:24:03,170 Um, I think is something that is often missing, um, it's quite a 388 00:24:03,170 --> 00:24:08,450 missed opportunity and something that we're really excited to kind 389 00:24:08,450 --> 00:24:12,170 of weave, um, for students in their undergraduate experience. 390 00:24:14,020 --> 00:24:16,809 And you know, by how we defined it earlier, that these things are 391 00:24:16,830 --> 00:24:19,230 durable and, you know, transferable. 392 00:24:19,550 --> 00:24:22,650 I bet you that if you were to ask that same thing again, you know, 393 00:24:22,700 --> 00:24:25,134 10 years down the road, I know it's hard to have these things. 394 00:24:26,135 --> 00:24:28,245 I wish that we can just like do that, right? 395 00:24:28,485 --> 00:24:32,415 But if you were able to ask like 10, 20 years down the road, it would 396 00:24:32,415 --> 00:24:35,754 have been, um, even more pronounced. 397 00:24:35,905 --> 00:24:39,224 It would be more pronounced that the student go, I went to college 398 00:24:39,224 --> 00:24:40,445 because I learned how to think. 399 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:44,820 And I forgot at all together what some of the content that I did, you 400 00:24:44,820 --> 00:24:47,460 know, but I learned how to think and learn how to solve problems. 401 00:24:47,460 --> 00:24:50,639 I learned how to reflect, I learned how to use these. 402 00:24:51,140 --> 00:24:55,499 And I think that's, you know, probably the even bigger and better 403 00:24:55,500 --> 00:24:57,670 proof that it's hard for us to do. 404 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:01,710 Um, but you know, I, I bet you that that's the case, Tom, you must be 405 00:25:01,740 --> 00:25:03,550 pretty proud when people say, Hey. 406 00:25:03,625 --> 00:25:05,495 Univ Univ 101. 407 00:25:05,505 --> 00:25:07,245 That was, uh, that was it. 408 00:25:07,255 --> 00:25:08,695 That was my, that was the moment. 409 00:25:08,705 --> 00:25:10,455 Do you know, it, sure. 410 00:25:10,915 --> 00:25:11,294 Yeah. 411 00:25:11,375 --> 00:25:12,804 I mean, it, it makes me proud. 412 00:25:12,834 --> 00:25:16,885 I think there's, there's one anecdote in particular that I think I always 413 00:25:16,885 --> 00:25:19,845 go back to and it, and it speaks to your question about are students 414 00:25:20,964 --> 00:25:26,225 better at reflecting and it had, it was the, it was the first year. 415 00:25:26,745 --> 00:25:28,715 that we were launching the new program. 416 00:25:29,035 --> 00:25:33,315 Now, only new students are going to be in this new program, so we still have 417 00:25:33,315 --> 00:25:38,095 to teach out our existing students in the old General Education curriculum. 418 00:25:38,585 --> 00:25:43,575 And we had a Gen Ed instructor teaching one of our Exploring Perspective classes, 419 00:25:44,424 --> 00:25:50,015 reach out to our instructional support team, and say, Wow, I have all of these 420 00:25:50,025 --> 00:25:51,855 students in the new Gen Ed program. 421 00:25:52,580 --> 00:25:56,080 They're so prepared to do the reflection in my class. 422 00:25:56,420 --> 00:25:59,779 Do you have any strategies I can give to the students in the old Gen 423 00:25:59,779 --> 00:26:01,569 Ed program to help them catch up? 424 00:26:02,059 --> 00:26:05,809 Because they're not, they're not reflecting at the same level as the 425 00:26:05,809 --> 00:26:09,179 students who have gone through this class that has actually systematically. 426 00:26:09,835 --> 00:26:12,575 Engage them in the habits and skills of reflection. 427 00:26:12,985 --> 00:26:17,885 And I think that, that piece of evidence, right, anecdotal as it 428 00:26:17,885 --> 00:26:22,994 is, is something that I, I point to because it's, it's very clear. 429 00:26:23,355 --> 00:26:26,944 Students might not see it in the moment, they might not see the value of it in 430 00:26:26,944 --> 00:26:32,264 the moment, but just the act of doing it every week for an entire semester, 431 00:26:33,294 --> 00:26:38,420 right, it's, It's like if you go for a long walk every day, you might not 432 00:26:38,420 --> 00:26:42,250 notice that you're getting stronger, but like, you're getting stronger. 433 00:26:42,310 --> 00:26:47,350 Um, and, and we, and we do see it, um, in their work, which is, I think, 434 00:26:47,350 --> 00:26:53,010 really, that's, that's the exciting part for me, is that we can see the actual 435 00:26:53,010 --> 00:26:55,085 growth in And how they're thinking. 436 00:26:56,575 --> 00:27:01,025 And I've heard similar sentiments from other people and actually there's 437 00:27:01,025 --> 00:27:07,144 even one additional piece, which is, but as far as the content, you know, 438 00:27:07,145 --> 00:27:09,565 sometimes that's completely gone. 439 00:27:09,575 --> 00:27:13,144 Even by the second semester, like students don't even remember what they 440 00:27:13,145 --> 00:27:15,655 read about or what that was all about. 441 00:27:15,945 --> 00:27:19,524 But it didn't matter because that wasn't the point, right? 442 00:27:19,534 --> 00:27:24,624 The point of it was, no, we want you to, we want you to exercise that part of your 443 00:27:24,624 --> 00:27:27,705 brain muscle, which is how do you reflect? 444 00:27:27,705 --> 00:27:30,825 How do you solve problem based on these, you know, like, how do you come 445 00:27:30,825 --> 00:27:33,564 up with big, bigger, newer questions? 446 00:27:33,825 --> 00:27:35,584 How do you come up with visions of the world? 447 00:27:35,634 --> 00:27:39,594 And these is the, these are the reflection becomes the basic building block. 448 00:27:40,245 --> 00:27:41,855 How you answer all of these things. 449 00:27:41,965 --> 00:27:43,665 Can I tell my C story, Devon? 450 00:27:43,745 --> 00:27:44,254 Yeah. 451 00:27:44,725 --> 00:27:44,865 Okay. 452 00:27:45,085 --> 00:27:45,875 This is my favorite thing. 453 00:27:46,105 --> 00:27:50,675 I, I, I had to take a computer programming class as an undergraduate, Jeff. 454 00:27:52,055 --> 00:27:52,724 I hated it. 455 00:27:53,335 --> 00:27:54,215 Absolutely hated it. 456 00:27:54,434 --> 00:27:57,145 I have had no intention of being a computer programmer. 457 00:27:57,195 --> 00:27:59,314 This is 25 plus years ago, right? 458 00:27:59,314 --> 00:28:00,195 That's a long time ago. 459 00:28:01,335 --> 00:28:01,955 I had to learn C 460 00:28:05,350 --> 00:28:06,409 Never used it since. 461 00:28:07,019 --> 00:28:10,870 Two years ago when I wrote about this story, I had a like, Google C I'm like, I 462 00:28:10,870 --> 00:28:12,499 don't, is this even the language anymore? 463 00:28:12,509 --> 00:28:13,889 I don't even know if people still use this. 464 00:28:14,219 --> 00:28:14,639 It is. 465 00:28:16,590 --> 00:28:17,330 I've never used it. 466 00:28:17,879 --> 00:28:23,019 But I will tell you, when I sit down to an Excel spreadsheet, and I write like, 467 00:28:23,050 --> 00:28:27,889 super complicated formulas, and people are like, how did you learn to do that? 468 00:28:27,899 --> 00:28:30,899 I've never taken a class in Excel. 469 00:28:31,510 --> 00:28:33,820 I took a class in C 25 years ago. 470 00:28:34,030 --> 00:28:35,790 It taught me how to think like a programmer. 471 00:28:35,810 --> 00:28:40,890 It taught me about computer syntax, about, about computer language, about thinking 472 00:28:40,890 --> 00:28:47,390 about punctuation, and, and that, and so now I can write really complicated 473 00:28:47,390 --> 00:28:51,480 formulas in Excel, not because I took an Excel class, but because I learned it. 474 00:28:52,020 --> 00:28:55,939 how to think like a computer programmer 25 years ago. 475 00:28:56,459 --> 00:28:59,659 Um, and that to me is the power of General Education, right? 476 00:28:59,679 --> 00:29:04,399 Like you, you learn this way of thinking, the content doesn't matter. 477 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:08,919 In, in most fields, if they're doing their job, the content's going to be 478 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:13,010 irrelevant in 15, 20 years, right? 479 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:14,950 But it's the way of thinking, right? 480 00:29:14,970 --> 00:29:19,710 Like I learned to think in this way and that, that thinking is. 481 00:29:21,105 --> 00:29:22,285 Where all the value is. 482 00:29:24,225 --> 00:29:28,284 It's, it's so crystallized in sort of where you stand in this, in 483 00:29:28,284 --> 00:29:34,105 this, in the, in the pedagogy, and that you are so willing to put all 484 00:29:34,105 --> 00:29:37,254 that into practice and in scale. 485 00:29:37,264 --> 00:29:41,354 So it's not, I mean, I think I've seen in a lot of institutions, they're 486 00:29:41,354 --> 00:29:46,504 like, well, we experiment with this one little group, um, and it does well. 487 00:29:47,125 --> 00:29:50,555 But then there's always a but, but probably because of that smaller group 488 00:29:50,555 --> 00:29:53,935 of people because they were in this college and they naturally do better. 489 00:29:54,315 --> 00:29:58,095 Um, you know, there's always some excuse and why it wasn't going to work. 490 00:29:58,515 --> 00:30:05,815 And for University of Arizona to, um, take on this Kind of endeavor, 491 00:30:05,865 --> 00:30:10,045 you know, this reform at this scale at this level and doing it so, so 492 00:30:10,045 --> 00:30:14,215 progressively to be able to just go, we're going to really, you know, make 493 00:30:14,215 --> 00:30:20,425 this part of part of this and you're able to see the results, um, like this. 494 00:30:20,455 --> 00:30:22,675 I am just so. 495 00:30:22,990 --> 00:30:27,720 Um, in all, and I, I feel like there are a lot of institutions who, 496 00:30:28,050 --> 00:30:31,070 hopefully, if any of them are listening, they're, they're probably thinking 497 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:35,460 about, well, we are going through our own reform, our own sort of refresh. 498 00:30:35,740 --> 00:30:40,480 Uh, we also have our Gen Ed program for 25 years and we hadn't done anything, 499 00:30:40,540 --> 00:30:42,220 and we've been talking about it. 500 00:30:42,620 --> 00:30:50,765 Um, I hope that they can see what you all have done and, and, um, you And, and 501 00:30:50,775 --> 00:30:57,585 store that as a, as a, as a source for, of hope that that could happen for them too. 502 00:30:58,335 --> 00:31:02,635 And I really think that it's, um, you know, I, I just came back from a, well, 503 00:31:02,635 --> 00:31:06,235 I didn't just come, I came back, you know, I went to a Gen Ed conference in, 504 00:31:06,295 --> 00:31:13,115 in October and I feel like there were, you know, Folks that are on the other 505 00:31:13,115 --> 00:31:18,545 side of before the reform or during the reform, you know, or the trying to get 506 00:31:18,545 --> 00:31:24,305 a reform going, um, sometimes they feel like this is never going to happen because 507 00:31:25,025 --> 00:31:30,345 Faculty Senate wasn't going to let us or, um, actually you mentioned earlier 508 00:31:30,345 --> 00:31:35,440 Board of Regents, um, you know, in some of those, and then you Some programs in some 509 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:41,480 states where certain things are banned and they are having to do these kinds of 510 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:48,600 reforms with hands tied and, and, and in very restrictive, um, you know, manners. 511 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:51,060 It makes life very, very difficult. 512 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:56,120 Um, but I, I think that what you have done here serves as an amazing example of what. 513 00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:59,460 Can happen, um, if you prioritize it. 514 00:32:00,260 --> 00:32:06,110 Yeah, I, you know, I'll add that I think maintaining the focus on what's in the 515 00:32:06,110 --> 00:32:08,440 interest and response to students, right? 516 00:32:08,810 --> 00:32:13,570 The institutional support then makes it actualized, right? 517 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:21,030 Um, and that also the work that we're doing in 101 and 301, having 518 00:32:21,030 --> 00:32:25,460 a common first year seminar focused on General Education, building. 519 00:32:25,695 --> 00:32:27,705 A General Education e portfolio. 520 00:32:28,445 --> 00:32:30,395 Like these don't exist in a vacuum. 521 00:32:30,395 --> 00:32:36,755 We, we operate on a campus that has tremendous like high impact practices 522 00:32:36,755 --> 00:32:40,535 and meaningful learning experiences for many different students. 523 00:32:40,555 --> 00:32:47,070 Um, and I think that recognizing that that work is also, like, this isn't the 524 00:32:47,150 --> 00:32:49,510 only ePortfolio a student creates, right? 525 00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:53,220 They're creating ePortfolios in other Gen Ed classes, right? 526 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:58,900 And to recognize that experience and to see that as, well, this is a tremendous 527 00:32:58,900 --> 00:33:03,410 opportunity because now students are, you know, Getting practice with this 528 00:33:03,430 --> 00:33:08,620 way of thinking and engaging in their learning so that it isn't the first 529 00:33:08,630 --> 00:33:11,810 time that they're doing something because we know that then that kind of 530 00:33:11,810 --> 00:33:14,430 practice makes it more easier to recall. 531 00:33:14,500 --> 00:33:19,430 It makes then the depth of their work uh, more robust, right? 532 00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:26,385 And, um, I think that also then makes it feel Everyone has a seat at the table. 533 00:33:26,385 --> 00:33:33,935 Everyone's work can be valued and that students can engage in multiple 534 00:33:34,395 --> 00:33:36,425 experiences that are meaningful. 535 00:33:36,425 --> 00:33:40,765 And we know contribute to ultimately their learning and their success here. 536 00:33:40,795 --> 00:33:44,245 And I think that that then makes it feel like there's more 537 00:33:44,245 --> 00:33:46,305 opportunities to collaborate. 538 00:33:47,375 --> 00:33:51,215 To get buy in and to make the work more sustainable. 539 00:33:51,275 --> 00:33:55,875 Um, so, you know, I think that that's an opportunity to look for as well. 540 00:33:56,425 --> 00:34:01,235 Um, because one, one solution isn't going to work for everybody. 541 00:34:01,255 --> 00:34:05,605 There's many different possibilities, um, and, and good work that's happening. 542 00:34:05,615 --> 00:34:08,995 It's just, how do you recognize that work and, and amplify it so 543 00:34:08,995 --> 00:34:10,655 more students can get connected? 544 00:34:10,865 --> 00:34:14,405 I, I want to, can I plug something for you, uh, Devon? 545 00:34:14,425 --> 00:34:14,455 Sure. 546 00:34:15,270 --> 00:34:22,000 I know that you, I know that you and, um, a number of your colleagues had, um, uh, 547 00:34:22,060 --> 00:34:29,790 published a, an article, um, in, um, at the International Journal of e-portfolio. 548 00:34:29,850 --> 00:34:34,680 Uh, article is named Connecting the Dots, utilizing Learning Portfolio in a 549 00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:37,260 large scale General Education curriculum. 550 00:34:37,580 --> 00:34:40,200 And I, um, I. 551 00:34:41,090 --> 00:34:44,230 I find it to be an incredible article. 552 00:34:44,310 --> 00:34:50,790 Um, one of the things that I, uh, really love is, is that you said learning 553 00:34:50,790 --> 00:34:55,310 portfolio can act as a constellation, the work of connecting the dots. 554 00:34:56,040 --> 00:35:00,340 And I just think that's so beautiful because stars themselves, you know, 555 00:35:00,380 --> 00:35:02,310 each individual star means something. 556 00:35:02,310 --> 00:35:06,160 It's, it's cool, but it's the constellation that makes meaning. 557 00:35:06,580 --> 00:35:08,570 And, and I, I just love that. 558 00:35:08,570 --> 00:35:13,160 I think that's such a beautiful and poetic, um, illustration 559 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:14,610 of the work that you're doing. 560 00:35:14,980 --> 00:35:15,640 Congratulations. 561 00:35:16,410 --> 00:35:16,900 Yes. 562 00:35:17,340 --> 00:35:17,670 Yeah. 563 00:35:17,700 --> 00:35:23,420 It was exciting to realize and, um, document for, even for ourselves, right. 564 00:35:23,470 --> 00:35:27,155 Uh, and being able to share that work and the, Tremendous effort 565 00:35:27,205 --> 00:35:30,495 of many of our colleagues on this campus and, and where we're headed. 566 00:35:30,495 --> 00:35:31,645 So thanks. 567 00:35:32,125 --> 00:35:33,505 Well, you're practicing what you preach. 568 00:35:33,515 --> 00:35:37,035 You're making your own work visible first to yourself, but now to the world. 569 00:35:37,415 --> 00:35:39,385 Um, I think that's, that's lovely. 570 00:35:40,115 --> 00:35:43,735 Um, well, Hey, listen, I am a such a big fan of both of you. 571 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:48,770 And I hope you all continue this amazing work at University of Arizona. 572 00:35:48,820 --> 00:35:52,810 I hope that we get to touch base again, maybe in a few years, we're 573 00:35:52,810 --> 00:35:55,840 going to be like, Hey, now we've grown in these other directions as well. 574 00:35:56,240 --> 00:35:59,690 And maybe we can have that, like, Hey, we actually did go and talk 575 00:35:59,690 --> 00:36:03,490 to some students after the graduate and they say, University of 101 576 00:36:03,655 --> 00:36:05,325 It was still the bomb, right? 577 00:36:10,075 --> 00:36:10,675 All right. 578 00:36:10,695 --> 00:36:13,675 Thank you both again for joining us today. 579 00:36:13,735 --> 00:36:19,265 Um, for listeners, if you, uh, want to learn more about, um, uh, Devon 580 00:36:19,285 --> 00:36:25,125 and Thomas's work, um, I will, um, be, um, posting some links to, you 581 00:36:25,125 --> 00:36:28,155 know, their, their, you know, the gender, gender education program. 582 00:36:28,315 --> 00:36:32,935 I'll post links to that, uh, article that I, I just talked about and, uh, any 583 00:36:32,935 --> 00:36:35,785 other links if you guys want to share, we'll, we'll include those as well. 584 00:36:36,035 --> 00:36:41,015 Uh, but, uh, thank you again so much for being, um, I really appreciate, 585 00:36:41,015 --> 00:36:44,685 uh, being a leader in this and, and doing such meaningful things. 586 00:36:45,015 --> 00:36:48,975 Especially at this kind of scale, it takes, it takes real courage and, 587 00:36:48,985 --> 00:36:53,785 and, and, uh, and effort and, uh, and, uh, and the hard work you put in 588 00:36:53,795 --> 00:36:55,215 there, you know, is really showing. 589 00:36:55,215 --> 00:36:58,409 And I think that, um, you know, literally, yeah. 590 00:36:58,820 --> 00:37:02,320 Many, many tens of thousands of students are going to benefit from 591 00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:05,630 this and this is really, you know, one of the most exciting things that 592 00:37:05,630 --> 00:37:07,620 I, I see in, in, in higher education. 593 00:37:07,620 --> 00:37:11,020 So, um, really appreciate everything that you've done. 594 00:37:11,590 --> 00:37:12,150 Thank you. 595 00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:12,540 Thank you. 596 00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:13,440 Thanks for having us. 597 00:37:14,570 --> 00:37:14,910 Okay. 598 00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:15,530 Take care. 599 00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:20,800 Coming up next, we'll be chatting with Whitney Fountain Ruiz, a recent 600 00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:23,390 graduate of Arizona State University. 601 00:37:23,630 --> 00:37:24,770 Here's a quick preview. 602 00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:29,790 I did try to get him but I wanted him to understand it is okay. 603 00:37:30,915 --> 00:37:35,555 You make mistakes, but if you make a mistake, you can also ask questions 604 00:37:35,685 --> 00:37:39,485 until you, um, get help or find the answer that you're looking for.