Welcome to Digication Scholars Conversations.
I'm your host, Jeff Yan.
In this episode, you'll hear Part Two of my conversation with
Devon Thomas Jones and Thomas Murray from University of Arizona.
Devon and Tom are Course Directors for University 301, General
Education ePortfolio, University 101, Introduction to the General
Education Experience, respectively.
They are also both Associate Professors of Practice at the W.
A.
Franke Honors College in Arizona.
in the Office of General Education.
More links and information about today's conversation can be found On Digication's
Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.
Full episodes of Digication Scholars Conversations can be found on
YouTube or your favorite podcast app.
I'm A huge, huge fan of, um, the reform that's centered around reflection.
I think that, you know, it is clearly, to me, one of those things where
when we, when we earlier on talked We're talking about the durable
skills, the transferable skills.
Reflection is probably the, the linchpin that, that, that
puts all of this together.
Um, you know, and, and that, I think, um, Tom, you were saying that for 12
years prior to this professionally as students, they weren't ever asked
about what they are curious about.
I bet you they weren't being really asked.
Really on reflecting on anything of their own experience either, right?
And, and, and it's just such a, it's almost like one of those things that, um,
Most people in the world won't deny almost naturally that yeah, it's a good part.
It's an important part of learning yet We don't carve out time and space
in our curriculum in our day to day To have students do this reflection
and I don't I don't even think that is reflection Is that kind of like
some people think of it as well?
There's that to touchy feely thing I'm gonna meditate and and it's not
even that it's you know, we're really talking about we're talking about You
You layering your own experience, making connections so that you can come up with
a strategy and how to solve a problem.
You know, these are things that scientists do, artists do,
dancers do, you know, nurses do.
Um, you have to do it constantly, every day, all the time.
Um, and so it's one of, it's almost like, it feels almost like
one of those skills that we just forgot that it was so important.
It's so important, but we forgot about it.
Um, and I think that.
Um, what you are all doing, bringing that to be such a focus, is incredibly
important work, um, in, in your reform.
I mean, if you want to be excellent in your field, reflection
is how you do that, right?
I mean, when I was in high school and I played football,
what did we do every Monday?
We watched a videotape on VHS, uh, videotape of our football game for
that weekend, right, and, and our coaches made us look at the, at the,
okay, what, what did you do well?
What did you do poorly?
What do you need to do better next time, right?
That is how you get better at playing football.
That's how you get better at teaching.
Anything.
If you want to be a great engineer, you need to reflect on the engineering that
you've done and how you make it better.
And I think, I think what, what people forget about is that reflection.
Yes.
Is there something about being human that makes reflection somewhat natural?
Perhaps, but it's a skill, right?
It's like any other skill.
The more you do it, the more intentional you are, the more
practice you have, the better you get.
Um, and if you want to be the best of the best, that's how
you're going to get there.
And that allows our brains then, right, to recall experiences
and apply them in new contexts.
And that's ultimately What we're hoping students can do with what they've learned
and spent many years dedicating time and energy in the classroom to having
these spaces where they can practice these different skills and apply them
to course specific or case scenarios.
And then when they're out in their fields and industries, they're able to better
make those connections and to build in that time and intentionality around
purposeful reflection and to facilitate is really part of the learning process and
ultimately what students should be able to take with them so that they can say,
Oh yeah, I actually got something out of my degree because now I can see how I've
applied some of the things I've learned.
Um, sometimes I think it's easy to assume that like when we ask students,
right, like what are you curious about?
And to carve out that time to sit with them.
One feels almost indulgent, right, in a world where there's
so many taps on our time.
Um, and instead, like, that, that shouldn't be an indulgent activity.
That, that requires work.
And sometimes, sometimes it uncovers things about ourselves that maybe
we We don't necessarily want to deal with quite yet, right?
Or sometimes through that process, students come to realize, wow,
I've, maybe I'm picking a degree path that is not right for me.
And what do I, how do I grapple with that?
Right?
Um, those are tough questions.
Um, and that's, as you mentioned, hard work, uh, to, to work through.
Um, but it's, it shouldn't be indulgent.
It shouldn't, that time shouldn't be reserved for the few.
Uh, Like in their like small Liberal Arts on the grassy knoll, you know, whatever
this like time of whatever we thought college was supposed to be like, but
it actually should be embedded and time preserved in the curriculum because it is
an essential part of the learning process.
Yeah.
I, I love that because I think, I think that, um, it's, I mean, you were
saying, That, you know, maybe humans that naturally have that reflection,
but, but if, but then why are we not making that something that we value?
Like from, from, from day one, why aren't we saying, well, yeah,
we are naturally good at this.
Let's harness this.
Um, so we don't do that, um, very well in, in, in the past and the past has been.
Actually, you're going to figure that out because you're going
to be naturally good at that.
We are here to transfer a ton of content to your brain and hopefully
you'll, you'll make sense of it all through your own reflection, right?
It's, it's, it's kind of, it feels a lot like, um, Tom, you're
using a sports analogy earlier.
I feel, I feel like it feels a lot like when sports science wasn't very advanced.
We just go, well, just go run a ton and then you'll be fast.
And then later on, we realized, hold on a minute.
It turns out there's nutrition, there's sleep, there's, there's
strength, there's agility.
There's a lot more nuance that we should be thinking about.
Right.
And so, yes, you still have to run, you know, to get fast.
You can't, you can't ignore that, but, but, but there is a lot of other.
Things that we do and we can do it smart.
You know, Jeff, I, I love running.
You actually hit a passion of mine.
And I think it's a great example because maybe humans find reflection naturally.
Humans are also built to run, right?
Like if you look at, at the history of humanity, humans are actually
elite long distance runners.
evolutionarily, right?
Like, but you have to practice it, right?
You do, if you don't use that skill, you, it doesn't, you, you lose it.
Um, and so are we built to reflect?
I think we are, but you still have to do it intentionally and thoughtfully
and strategically and, and in a sustained way, um, to make it valuable.
Well, you can almost train yourself out of it.
If you, if we don't put value on it, that's a danger to, to humanity, right?
I feel like there's a certain aspect of, you know, when we don't train ourselves to
become reflective thinkers, that's when we become, Easily manipulated, manipulated.
Right?
Others easily being able to not being able to tell, you know, um, truth from,
you know, things that are not true.
Um, because we're not exercising that part of the brain.
Um, and that's, that's a.
That's a dangerous path to go down.
Um, and if we only count on people to just do it naturally, they'll still
do some of it, but especially if we keep telling people that doesn't
matter, you just need to learn this, then they go, well, hold on a minute.
Turns out, even though I'm naturally good at it, I'm not going to, I'm going
to do, not going to do anything with it.
That's, you know, that's, that's a, that's a serious problem.
Now I know that.
At University of Arizona, as part of what you've done, um, in this reform,
and actually, Devon, in your course, it's called University, University 301,
and it's about, um, building portfolios.
I have, I've been so lucky to have been involved with you
all to do your portfolio work.
You know, we just took a small part of it because you, you use, you know, the
platform to do the work that you do.
Um, but, but the big part of what I've been really, um, always been so, um,
enamored by is your, um, dedication to making a learning portfolio.
Um, can you Maybe talk about why portfolio and what is a learning portfolio versus
any type, other types of portfolio.
Um, and, and maybe, you know, so that people can get a little bit of that,
little bit of a color of like, well, what does it mean when they have gone
through Uh, UNF 101 and then they took some articles and come to my
301 class and they do this portfolio.
Why?
And what does that look like?
What does it actually look like for a student?
Are they just basically writing a lot more paper or are they
not writing a lot more paper?
What is this?
Yeah.
Thanks.
Thanks, Jeff.
Um, what I think is particularly exciting and when I think about what
Uh, makes a learning portfolio stand apart from, um, what we consider
maybe more external facing or showcase portfolios, career portfolios.
There's many different kinds of portfolios and they all serve different purposes.
Um, and I had a colleague once kind of framed this well for me, um, as
the primary audience member of a learning portfolio is the student.
And that resonates with us and so much of what we're trying to do is
that the primary audience and the main stakeholder in students learning
and their degree is the student.
So they, that is where the effort and the work is.
And really the learning happens is that when a, when a student gets a chance to
say this is actually what I've learned, this is what's mattered to me, and this
is what it's going to mean for me moving forward, and really almost in dialogue
with themselves, right, their past self, uh, and their learning, that That's it.
It's quite a profound responsibility and then gives us a sense of, okay,
now I can actually talk about and see the connections that maybe I didn't see
before, um, in my undergraduate career.
So, um, I think that's, and that was a mindset shift.
Two, for me, professionally, right?
And it's something we still, like, when Tom and I meet with folks around campus
and we, we have our little, you know, song and dance we do about the classes.
That's a big, like, myth we have to debunk is what this portfolio is.
And that, um, There's value when, in particular for some fields and industries
and for some degree programs, right, um, having an external portfolio is
a requirement and an expectation for, for their industry or their career,
and that's not to say that, like, you can't have more than one, right, or you
wouldn't have more than one portfolio as a part of your undergraduate experience.
That would be, you know, if we were to think about, we would never tell a
student, to have only one version of their resume or to complete one final exam
for their entire undergraduate degree.
Like, that would just serve no purpose and it has no applicability.
Um, but rather with the, uh.
The Learning ePortfolio.
It's responsive to, again, the call that we are responding to with students that
I don't know, I want to be able to say I know what I learned and what value it
has to offer for my General Education.
And that's what they're prompted to do as a part of this portfolio experience.
And sometimes the What they decide to include, um, may not be the things
that their General Education instructor like per, you know, necessarily set out
for them as a part of the assignment.
Sometimes the learning that they uncover through the reflective
process is not necessarily what the assignment was designed to do.
Um, and I think that that is, an important and profound insight when you Realize
something from a learning experience that maybe you didn't expect to find um
is one of I think the the key pieces of a learning portfolio that You wouldn't
necessarily put out into the world, especially if it was something like wow,
I learned that My team really struggled, uh, because of our time management, right?
Like, I wouldn't put that on my LinkedIn, uh, necessarily, you know, but that
would be important for me to understand and then to be able to say, next time
I work on a team, I know I got to bring these skills to, to that team project.
So maybe that was a long answer, but it's an exciting opportunity for students,
um, to really get to say, this is what I learned and this is what matters to me.
And here's how I'm going to apply that learning in my future.
And I think part of that, um, that Devon was alluding to is this idea of like
using a learning ePortfolio as a space where you can also showcase failure.
And when we're talking about students who are so often so failure averse, Right?
Like, not ever wanting to, um, kind of put under a microscope the
things that they haven't done well.
Having this space where they can say, wow, I went back and here's a paper I
wrote two years ago in my first year.
And actually, this is not a very good example of critical thinking,
but this is what I've learned since then through these other experiences.
Like, that is, So powerful for students to be able to more intentionally think about,
um, the things that they maybe haven't done as well as they wanted to, because
that's also a part of learning, right?
Is, is being able to, to learn from failure.
I mean, going back to your football game analogy, unless you won every single
one of those games, there will be some failures, and that's where you're going
to have to learn and figure out how to do.
You know, better next time.
And I, one of the, one of the things that I, um, that was, that is, that is
really, um, part of the inception of Digication as a platform, you know, for
portfolios, it's called make learning visible, but I love people don't realize
that when we say make learning visible.
Is to make learning visible first and foremost to yourself.
Um, because that is what powers the rest of, you know, how do you grow
from that to, you know, potentially, like you said, making it visible for
a potential employer or what have you, and you can edit and you can, you can
curate and you can do, do a version of it that you make visible for them.
That's appropriate.
That's just being able to understand audience.
You know, that's, that's, that's a, that's a, that's a simple thing to do.
Um, But the idea that we get to just see it for ourselves, it almost
feels like you should be able to do it, except that we don't, right?
So if Tom, I'm going to go back to your football game, chess tape.
If no one taped it, right?
If no one taped it and no one on Monday said, let's sit and
watch how we got our butt kicked.
I was using the case.
Right.
But if no one forced you to do it, no one taped it, no one bothered with it,
because we didn't care that much, right?
Then on Monday, you would, you have missed one of the most
valuable ways to grow, right?
You would have just go, well, we got our butt kicked.
I'm not sure why.
Everyone just go run another 10 laps.
I'm going to push back on that a little bit.
I think, because there's two things that you mentioned that are important
for the reflection to happen.
One is that somebody videotaped it, and two is that somebody said,
let's watch, let's think about this and think about what happened.
I think the videotape is helpful, but it's not a necessary condition, right?
The necessary condition is that you make time for it, right?
That somebody says, sit down and think about it, because a lot of
reflection happens without an artifact.
I mean, our ePortfolios have artifacts, right?
But, you know, If you develop the habits and skills of reflection, you can do that
without necessarily having an artifact, but just thinking about your experience.
So, I mean, I do a lot of, I do a lot of running and when I, after I run a race,
I mean, I'm not racing competitively, believe me, but after I run a race, I
don't have a videotape of that race, but I can still think about like,
okay, how did I manage my nutrition?
What was my mental state?
How did training go leading up to that?
Um, I don't necessarily have to have an artifact.
in order for reflection to happen.
Um, the, the necessary condition is that you make time for it.
Yes, it's make the time and the end and being deliberate about like, Hey, you
know, I'm going to actually think, think about something that would have been
painful in particular sometimes, right?
Like it didn't go well, what happened?
Like I have to realize that.
Yeah.
And I think that's what.
distinguishes a learning portfolio from, say, a cloud storage device, right, or a
Google Drive, right, um, is that students are oftentimes prompted or, you know,
sometimes are incentivized on their own to maybe save their work or they have
whatever versions of their past, you know, English papers, um, but in life, right,
as, as competing priorities happen, we, we document, we submit the work, and
then we move on to the next task, right?
And, um, that is often what is also incentivized, right, in higher education.
Submit the work, I evaluate it, I determine that you learned the
things I was looking for you to do.
And, What actually makes it a learning, the visibility part, right, the learning
eat portfolio, is that now I actually have to go back and think about this
paper, maybe revisit it again, think about maybe what were the conditions I
was writing this paper in, right, um, and actually maybe the things I got out of
it, and And to reflect in that capacity that that is something that you wouldn't
necessarily be prompted to engage with if you're just here I am with my drive
and my cloud device and moving on.
Right.
It's kind of like a one, two punch.
You, you can have the experience, but if you don't get to process
that experience afterwards, it just sits alone as an experience.
And it, it did something, but it didn't do its full potential, like to, to really,
you didn't really get most out of it.
You, you got, you got, you get the first half, you know, you got the
experience, but that experience did not mean as much as if you had been able to
actually take the time to process it.
And to make meaning out of it and to make connections in this experiences
comparing to other experiences that you also have and layer them.
Um, how do you think, let me ask you a little bit about
now that you've done this for,
look, you and, and like you said, your colleagues have done this for many
years, but now it's really brought to the forefront, to a massive scale
to thousands of students per year.
Can we ask, can we talk a little bit about, so what's the outcome of this?
Like what, what are students getting out of it?
You know, and have you seen evidence of it?
You know, like, uh, I think it must be so cool, Devon, for you to teach the, the,
the, the, you know, the bookend, the, the, the other end of the bookend class where
you go, well, these students coming out of, um, you know, courses directed by, by
Tom, um, do they come out You know, coming to your class, being more reflective
and, and how so does it, does it show?
Yeah.
I think what's been, um, one of the most, I don't know, unexpected benefits, right?
Particularly with teaching 301.
Um, one of, one of the first kind of reflection questions students are asked
in the first week of the class is, um, what's been kind of the most meaningful
General Education class you've taken to date and why, like, why is that?
Why was it meaningful?
What did you get out of it?
And overwhelmingly, you know, there's many answers to that question.
Students can choose whatever class they want, but the seems to be the
most popular answer is it was my Intro to Gen Ed class, my UNIV 101 class.
And usually the answer is I didn't see the value at the time, right?
I didn't see the purpose.
I, and actually now I understand, right?
I learned.
Like how to learn, right?
I learned the value of reflection.
You know, they point to all these different things that they got out of
the class that at the time they might not have seen or really cared much
about because it's their first semester.
It's, there's so many things happening in your life when you're starting a
new program, you know, and um, That's a, that's a pretty profound insight,
um, and I think quite powerful that we, we don't see otherwise oftentimes
as, as faculty and instructors when we teach a one off class.
Um, we see, see the students, we, we interact with them for a certain period of
time and then we hope that what, you know, the messages that we hope to relay, uh, go
with them and the show up somewhere else.
Um, but it's not often we actually get to see that.
Learning actualized, um, in, in real time or some time afterwards and I think that
that's one of the most exciting things that I find, um, is that students, um, see
the value and they just might not actually see it in the moment, um, they're starting
to recognize it later and so that's not to say every student, right, comes to
that realization or and even sometimes they point about, About the zombies class
or what, you know, pyramids and mummies.
And they're, they can talk about, oh, like, this is why
I got this out of this class.
And again, as faculty members, I don't teach that class, but now I can tell,
you know, that faculty member, students are talking about your class and
here's what they're learning about it.
And if it's through their reflections or it's in their e portfolio, that
opportunity to engage with that work.
Um, I think is something that is often missing, um, it's quite a
missed opportunity and something that we're really excited to kind
of weave, um, for students in their undergraduate experience.
And you know, by how we defined it earlier, that these things are
durable and, you know, transferable.
I bet you that if you were to ask that same thing again, you know,
10 years down the road, I know it's hard to have these things.
I wish that we can just like do that, right?
But if you were able to ask like 10, 20 years down the road, it would
have been, um, even more pronounced.
It would be more pronounced that the student go, I went to college
because I learned how to think.
And I forgot at all together what some of the content that I did, you
know, but I learned how to think and learn how to solve problems.
I learned how to reflect, I learned how to use these.
And I think that's, you know, probably the even bigger and better
proof that it's hard for us to do.
Um, but you know, I, I bet you that that's the case, Tom, you must be
pretty proud when people say, Hey.
Univ Univ 101.
That was, uh, that was it.
That was my, that was the moment.
Do you know, it, sure.
Yeah.
I mean, it, it makes me proud.
I think there's, there's one anecdote in particular that I think I always
go back to and it, and it speaks to your question about are students
better at reflecting and it had, it was the, it was the first year.
that we were launching the new program.
Now, only new students are going to be in this new program, so we still have
to teach out our existing students in the old General Education curriculum.
And we had a Gen Ed instructor teaching one of our Exploring Perspective classes,
reach out to our instructional support team, and say, Wow, I have all of these
students in the new Gen Ed program.
They're so prepared to do the reflection in my class.
Do you have any strategies I can give to the students in the old Gen
Ed program to help them catch up?
Because they're not, they're not reflecting at the same level as the
students who have gone through this class that has actually systematically.
Engage them in the habits and skills of reflection.
And I think that, that piece of evidence, right, anecdotal as it
is, is something that I, I point to because it's, it's very clear.
Students might not see it in the moment, they might not see the value of it in
the moment, but just the act of doing it every week for an entire semester,
right, it's, It's like if you go for a long walk every day, you might not
notice that you're getting stronger, but like, you're getting stronger.
Um, and, and we, and we do see it, um, in their work, which is, I think,
really, that's, that's the exciting part for me, is that we can see the actual
growth in And how they're thinking.
And I've heard similar sentiments from other people and actually there's
even one additional piece, which is, but as far as the content, you know,
sometimes that's completely gone.
Even by the second semester, like students don't even remember what they
read about or what that was all about.
But it didn't matter because that wasn't the point, right?
The point of it was, no, we want you to, we want you to exercise that part of your
brain muscle, which is how do you reflect?
How do you solve problem based on these, you know, like, how do you come
up with big, bigger, newer questions?
How do you come up with visions of the world?
And these is the, these are the reflection becomes the basic building block.
How you answer all of these things.
Can I tell my C story, Devon?
Yeah.
Okay.
This is my favorite thing.
I, I, I had to take a computer programming class as an undergraduate, Jeff.
I hated it.
Absolutely hated it.
I have had no intention of being a computer programmer.
This is 25 plus years ago, right?
That's a long time ago.
I had to learn C
Never used it since.
Two years ago when I wrote about this story, I had a like, Google C I'm like, I
don't, is this even the language anymore?
I don't even know if people still use this.
It is.
I've never used it.
But I will tell you, when I sit down to an Excel spreadsheet, and I write like,
super complicated formulas, and people are like, how did you learn to do that?
I've never taken a class in Excel.
I took a class in C 25 years ago.
It taught me how to think like a programmer.
It taught me about computer syntax, about, about computer language, about thinking
about punctuation, and, and that, and so now I can write really complicated
formulas in Excel, not because I took an Excel class, but because I learned it.
how to think like a computer programmer 25 years ago.
Um, and that to me is the power of General Education, right?
Like you, you learn this way of thinking, the content doesn't matter.
In, in most fields, if they're doing their job, the content's going to be
irrelevant in 15, 20 years, right?
But it's the way of thinking, right?
Like I learned to think in this way and that, that thinking is.
Where all the value is.
It's, it's so crystallized in sort of where you stand in this, in
this, in the, in the pedagogy, and that you are so willing to put all
that into practice and in scale.
So it's not, I mean, I think I've seen in a lot of institutions, they're
like, well, we experiment with this one little group, um, and it does well.
But then there's always a but, but probably because of that smaller group
of people because they were in this college and they naturally do better.
Um, you know, there's always some excuse and why it wasn't going to work.
And for University of Arizona to, um, take on this Kind of endeavor,
you know, this reform at this scale at this level and doing it so, so
progressively to be able to just go, we're going to really, you know, make
this part of part of this and you're able to see the results, um, like this.
I am just so.
Um, in all, and I, I feel like there are a lot of institutions who,
hopefully, if any of them are listening, they're, they're probably thinking
about, well, we are going through our own reform, our own sort of refresh.
Uh, we also have our Gen Ed program for 25 years and we hadn't done anything,
and we've been talking about it.
Um, I hope that they can see what you all have done and, and, um, you And, and
store that as a, as a, as a source for, of hope that that could happen for them too.
And I really think that it's, um, you know, I, I just came back from a, well,
I didn't just come, I came back, you know, I went to a Gen Ed conference in,
in October and I feel like there were, you know, Folks that are on the other
side of before the reform or during the reform, you know, or the trying to get
a reform going, um, sometimes they feel like this is never going to happen because
Faculty Senate wasn't going to let us or, um, actually you mentioned earlier
Board of Regents, um, you know, in some of those, and then you Some programs in some
states where certain things are banned and they are having to do these kinds of
reforms with hands tied and, and, and in very restrictive, um, you know, manners.
It makes life very, very difficult.
Um, but I, I think that what you have done here serves as an amazing example of what.
Can happen, um, if you prioritize it.
Yeah, I, you know, I'll add that I think maintaining the focus on what's in the
interest and response to students, right?
The institutional support then makes it actualized, right?
Um, and that also the work that we're doing in 101 and 301, having
a common first year seminar focused on General Education, building.
A General Education e portfolio.
Like these don't exist in a vacuum.
We, we operate on a campus that has tremendous like high impact practices
and meaningful learning experiences for many different students.
Um, and I think that recognizing that that work is also, like, this isn't the
only ePortfolio a student creates, right?
They're creating ePortfolios in other Gen Ed classes, right?
And to recognize that experience and to see that as, well, this is a tremendous
opportunity because now students are, you know, Getting practice with this
way of thinking and engaging in their learning so that it isn't the first
time that they're doing something because we know that then that kind of
practice makes it more easier to recall.
It makes then the depth of their work uh, more robust, right?
And, um, I think that also then makes it feel Everyone has a seat at the table.
Everyone's work can be valued and that students can engage in multiple
experiences that are meaningful.
And we know contribute to ultimately their learning and their success here.
And I think that that then makes it feel like there's more
opportunities to collaborate.
To get buy in and to make the work more sustainable.
Um, so, you know, I think that that's an opportunity to look for as well.
Um, because one, one solution isn't going to work for everybody.
There's many different possibilities, um, and, and good work that's happening.
It's just, how do you recognize that work and, and amplify it so
more students can get connected?
I, I want to, can I plug something for you, uh, Devon?
Sure.
I know that you, I know that you and, um, a number of your colleagues had, um, uh,
published a, an article, um, in, um, at the International Journal of e-portfolio.
Uh, article is named Connecting the Dots, utilizing Learning Portfolio in a
large scale General Education curriculum.
And I, um, I.
I find it to be an incredible article.
Um, one of the things that I, uh, really love is, is that you said learning
portfolio can act as a constellation, the work of connecting the dots.
And I just think that's so beautiful because stars themselves, you know,
each individual star means something.
It's, it's cool, but it's the constellation that makes meaning.
And, and I, I just love that.
I think that's such a beautiful and poetic, um, illustration
of the work that you're doing.
Congratulations.
Yes.
Yeah.
It was exciting to realize and, um, document for, even for ourselves, right.
Uh, and being able to share that work and the, Tremendous effort
of many of our colleagues on this campus and, and where we're headed.
So thanks.
Well, you're practicing what you preach.
You're making your own work visible first to yourself, but now to the world.
Um, I think that's, that's lovely.
Um, well, Hey, listen, I am a such a big fan of both of you.
And I hope you all continue this amazing work at University of Arizona.
I hope that we get to touch base again, maybe in a few years, we're
going to be like, Hey, now we've grown in these other directions as well.
And maybe we can have that, like, Hey, we actually did go and talk
to some students after the graduate and they say, University of 101
It was still the bomb, right?
All right.
Thank you both again for joining us today.
Um, for listeners, if you, uh, want to learn more about, um, uh, Devon
and Thomas's work, um, I will, um, be, um, posting some links to, you
know, their, their, you know, the gender, gender education program.
I'll post links to that, uh, article that I, I just talked about and, uh, any
other links if you guys want to share, we'll, we'll include those as well.
Uh, but, uh, thank you again so much for being, um, I really appreciate,
uh, being a leader in this and, and doing such meaningful things.
Especially at this kind of scale, it takes, it takes real courage and,
and, and, uh, and effort and, uh, and, uh, and the hard work you put in
there, you know, is really showing.
And I think that, um, you know, literally, yeah.
Many, many tens of thousands of students are going to benefit from
this and this is really, you know, one of the most exciting things that
I, I see in, in, in higher education.
So, um, really appreciate everything that you've done.
Thank you.
Thanks for having us.
Okay.
Take care.
Coming up next, we'll be chatting with Whitney Fountain Ruiz, a recent
graduate of Arizona State University.
Here's a quick preview.
I did try to get him but I wanted him to understand it is okay.
You make mistakes, but if you make a mistake, you can also ask questions
until you, um, get help or find the answer that you're looking for.