WEBVTT

NOTE
This file was generated by Descript 

00:00:00.028 --> 00:00:02.248
Hello and welcome to the 10,000 things.

00:00:02.248 --> 00:00:03.718
My name is Sam Ellis.

00:00:03.898 --> 00:00:04.528
I'm Joe Loh.

00:00:05.018 --> 00:00:07.808
Joe's been sitting on this topic
or this quote for about a year.

00:00:08.078 --> 00:00:12.278
So a friend in, uh, addiction
recovery circles sent me this.

00:00:12.630 --> 00:00:19.200
he has become quite a committed
Buddhist and uh, yeah, and he's

00:00:19.200 --> 00:00:24.390
also an academic, so he sent me the
quote, and with full attribution and.

00:00:25.005 --> 00:00:29.145
Also, you know, a bibliography
and all this stuff.

00:00:29.240 --> 00:00:35.840
It wasn't just like a Instagram,
um, you know, quote, quote with a,

00:00:36.115 --> 00:00:37.610
a picture behind it or something.

00:00:37.790 --> 00:00:38.030
Yeah.

00:00:38.210 --> 00:00:41.901
It was a fully referenced,
Tibetan, Buddhist, um.

00:00:41.901 --> 00:00:41.911
Mm-hmm.

00:00:41.961 --> 00:00:42.351
You know?

00:00:42.381 --> 00:00:46.101
Anyway, then I just kept reading
it and rereading it every

00:00:46.101 --> 00:00:47.781
day for about the last year.

00:00:47.826 --> 00:00:47.886
Yeah.

00:00:48.606 --> 00:00:52.446
And then I was hesitant to send it to
you, Sam, I've sent it to you, but,

00:00:52.703 --> 00:00:55.853
there's a bunch of stuff in here I
have very little understanding of.

00:00:56.112 --> 00:00:58.992
but maybe you should just read
it and Well, that's right.

00:00:59.112 --> 00:01:01.902
I just wanted to add this over for
the interest of a little building, a

00:01:01.902 --> 00:01:05.682
building, a little bit of suspense that
you, which we have already, I guess,

00:01:05.682 --> 00:01:10.902
but that you wait, as you said, I've
got cold feet on this one and I knew.

00:01:12.132 --> 00:01:13.452
I had this interesting choice.

00:01:13.452 --> 00:01:15.012
I was like, eh, just be Mr.

00:01:15.012 --> 00:01:15.732
Let it go.

00:01:15.732 --> 00:01:19.872
Or no, I actually want to do this
one and I need to find out where

00:01:19.872 --> 00:01:21.012
the cold feet are coming from.

00:01:21.012 --> 00:01:23.952
So I asked, oh, and then you said
like, I feel like I don't have

00:01:23.952 --> 00:01:25.452
that much to say about Buddhism.

00:01:26.442 --> 00:01:30.822
Um, which is odd 'cause you've had
more engagement with it than me and

00:01:31.392 --> 00:01:33.222
No, the real reason for the cold feet.

00:01:33.222 --> 00:01:34.362
Do you want me to tell you the truth?

00:01:34.932 --> 00:01:35.382
Yeah.

00:01:35.682 --> 00:01:36.162
Okay.

00:01:36.672 --> 00:01:39.012
So on Friday, today's Sunday.

00:01:39.072 --> 00:01:43.062
On Friday afternoon at work, I
spoke to one of the psychiatrists

00:01:43.662 --> 00:01:44.922
and Buddhism came up.

00:01:45.162 --> 00:01:46.002
Ah, okay.

00:01:46.122 --> 00:01:49.752
And she said, you know, I think
Buddha had clinical depression

00:01:49.752 --> 00:01:53.712
and I would've given him some ECT,
which is electro convulsive therapy.

00:01:53.712 --> 00:01:54.762
Convulsive therapy.

00:01:55.302 --> 00:01:58.032
And you know, he went through that
whole eating disorder phase and.

00:01:58.752 --> 00:02:03.552
I think Buddhism is a very
depressed religion and you know.

00:02:04.212 --> 00:02:04.902
Hmm.

00:02:05.082 --> 00:02:09.372
And I said, oh, would the Buddhists
say that my kids having epilepsy?

00:02:09.372 --> 00:02:11.922
Is that because of something that
happened to them in past lives?

00:02:11.922 --> 00:02:13.662
Or something they did in past lives?

00:02:13.872 --> 00:02:16.062
And she said, yeah, they would say that.

00:02:16.122 --> 00:02:20.232
And I said, ah, and I, and
she's Sri Laan, this woman.

00:02:20.232 --> 00:02:22.452
So she's been exposed to a
lot of Buddhism, I assume.

00:02:22.752 --> 00:02:23.112
Yeah.

00:02:23.304 --> 00:02:27.564
And I thought I got a bit
dark on Buddhism, Sam.

00:02:27.984 --> 00:02:31.374
'cause I've, I've engaged a lot with the
meditation practice and I've read the,

00:02:31.524 --> 00:02:37.014
some books and stuff, but I've never
really engaged with past lives or Yeah.

00:02:37.014 --> 00:02:42.054
Karma or reincarnation or, or
like, I fully believe that my

00:02:42.054 --> 00:02:46.434
kids' epilepsy is a bio biological
phenomenon that's essentially random.

00:02:46.824 --> 00:02:47.004
Yeah.

00:02:47.034 --> 00:02:48.084
I don't think it has any.

00:02:48.754 --> 00:02:52.204
Meaning, and that the only, and
if I started to think it had

00:02:52.204 --> 00:02:56.374
some cursed meaning, I think it
would unpick my sanity around it.

00:02:56.374 --> 00:02:59.284
And I'm trying to be very sane
about approaching the whole thing.

00:02:59.494 --> 00:02:59.584
Mm-hmm.

00:02:59.824 --> 00:03:01.864
So then that made me a bit dark on.

00:03:02.379 --> 00:03:06.129
Thinking about Buddhism for a few hours
and then that was when we were messaging.

00:03:06.969 --> 00:03:08.799
So that's how sensitive my system is.

00:03:08.799 --> 00:03:12.099
One person tells me Buddha had
clinical depression, and then I'm

00:03:12.099 --> 00:03:13.779
like, oh, well maybe fuck Buddhism.

00:03:13.899 --> 00:03:14.139
It's true.

00:03:14.139 --> 00:03:15.339
You are very suggestible.

00:03:15.339 --> 00:03:15.939
It is true.

00:03:16.060 --> 00:03:19.957
sometimes, you know why, because I think
other people are smarter than me, so I

00:03:19.957 --> 00:03:25.957
think if someone's a, a psychiatrist,
well she's clearly a lot smarter than me.

00:03:26.137 --> 00:03:26.437
Yeah.

00:03:26.497 --> 00:03:27.517
And maybe the last.

00:03:27.537 --> 00:03:30.477
10 years of interest in Buddhism
that can all be thrown out the window

00:03:30.477 --> 00:03:36.597
because of one, essentially, you
know, joking remark about Buddhism

00:03:36.597 --> 00:03:37.917
being a depressive religion.

00:03:38.907 --> 00:03:41.877
Well, look, I mean, I'm not gonna,
yeah, I'm not gonna speculate.

00:03:42.297 --> 00:03:43.527
I mean, I have thoughts about.

00:03:44.467 --> 00:03:47.077
How I think there's, there's
some, there's definitely something

00:03:47.077 --> 00:03:49.567
in what she said, like, I'm not
gonna dismiss it out of hand.

00:03:49.567 --> 00:03:52.687
And I have read articles like
the problem with Buddhism or

00:03:52.687 --> 00:03:54.367
the Dark Side of Buddhism.

00:03:54.847 --> 00:03:56.317
There's, there's, look,
there's plenty of it.

00:03:56.317 --> 00:03:59.197
You can go and look it up, whether
it's reports about a particular

00:03:59.197 --> 00:04:03.367
ashram, which is not as cool as it
may appear, or that, and, you know,

00:04:03.427 --> 00:04:05.437
I can talk about Raga life, right?

00:04:05.917 --> 00:04:08.917
And uh, reports of.

00:04:09.324 --> 00:04:14.454
monks that aren't happy or, or people
that have been sort of young people that

00:04:14.454 --> 00:04:18.894
may maybe just a little bit because of
a lack of economic options, have sort of

00:04:18.894 --> 00:04:25.254
just had to take up this occupation or
like, uh, and of course there's a whole

00:04:25.254 --> 00:04:29.874
side of Buddhism, which Westerners don't
usually get a look at until more, maybe

00:04:29.874 --> 00:04:31.374
more recently you'll get a bit of this.

00:04:31.505 --> 00:04:37.295
of the, the Buddhas and the Tuper and
like, there's a lot of really interesting

00:04:38.105 --> 00:04:40.565
kind of dark shamanic stuff in there.

00:04:40.865 --> 00:04:40.985
Mm.

00:04:41.983 --> 00:04:49.573
so one way to think about Buddhism
is as having a animist core,

00:04:50.683 --> 00:04:55.228
which then got layered with a,
with a bit of polytheism from.

00:04:55.948 --> 00:05:00.748
From, you know, India and then it got
layered with a bit of, well, 'cause

00:05:00.748 --> 00:05:05.098
you know, it comes up in the soil of
Northern India and the mountains are

00:05:05.098 --> 00:05:10.318
there and Tibet, Tibet is beyond those
mountains to the north, appalling between.

00:05:10.798 --> 00:05:16.108
And then you have, you know, Bhutan to the
Northeast and, and you've got that part

00:05:16.108 --> 00:05:20.908
of India called the Northeastern states,
which are considered sort of Indo-Chinese.

00:05:21.628 --> 00:05:25.468
And just beyond there, you
know, we have Buddhists in.

00:05:26.428 --> 00:05:30.688
You know, that sort of transitional part
of Indochina, Burma and then Thailand,

00:05:30.688 --> 00:05:35.938
you know, the Vietnam, what they used
to call the Indochinese Peninsula.

00:05:36.418 --> 00:05:41.788
And, and then of course China itself,
uh, you know, all the way from Central

00:05:41.788 --> 00:05:45.928
Asia to the east and then Japan beyond
that with its Zen Buddhist tradition.

00:05:46.138 --> 00:05:49.138
And so you've got all these flavors
of Buddhism stretching all the

00:05:49.138 --> 00:05:51.868
way from India to Japan, and then.

00:05:52.453 --> 00:05:55.183
Stretching also in the, in
the direction of the west.

00:05:55.333 --> 00:05:59.743
And then fast forward to the 20th
century, you've got the United

00:05:59.743 --> 00:06:06.463
States and the UK and Western Europe,
Buddhism of the kind of a sort of

00:06:06.463 --> 00:06:10.633
missionary, slightly commodified form
starts to take hold in those places.

00:06:11.683 --> 00:06:16.573
So it is a very radically diverse set of
traditions and doctrines and teachings.

00:06:16.573 --> 00:06:19.333
There are some central scriptures
that underlie all of it, but.

00:06:20.338 --> 00:06:22.888
There are also some, I don't
know, shamanic or animist,

00:06:22.888 --> 00:06:26.008
things like buried inside of it.

00:06:26.008 --> 00:06:32.188
And it's the same with Hinduism, and
it's the same with, uh, Christianity.

00:06:32.758 --> 00:06:34.133
Um, that it does still bear Some of its.

00:06:35.098 --> 00:06:39.838
Animist roots and its ancestor worship
roots and or where it's landed.

00:06:39.928 --> 00:06:43.678
The people that practice Christianity have
kept their ancestor worship going, and

00:06:43.768 --> 00:06:45.418
that's gotten transferred into the Saints.

00:06:45.418 --> 00:06:48.148
And so there's all these different, like
basically religion is layers and layers

00:06:48.148 --> 00:06:52.528
and layers like archeological, like soil
sedimentation, you know what I mean?

00:06:52.858 --> 00:06:55.408
Like you drill, you drill a
core sample down into the earth.

00:06:57.028 --> 00:06:58.018
Or or into ice.

00:06:58.228 --> 00:06:58.558
Right.

00:06:58.648 --> 00:07:01.498
And then look at all the pollen
that's trapped in the layers of ice.

00:07:01.498 --> 00:07:01.828
Right?

00:07:01.833 --> 00:07:02.113
Yeah.

00:07:02.113 --> 00:07:03.598
I mean, and that's what
I find in religion.

00:07:03.598 --> 00:07:07.738
It's, it's like this long accretion of
human experience all lumped into one word.

00:07:08.398 --> 00:07:08.728
Yeah.

00:07:08.728 --> 00:07:14.068
The Buddhism that's come to me is
the Buddhism of late 20th century,

00:07:14.068 --> 00:07:15.448
early 21st century, so repo.

00:07:16.798 --> 00:07:17.248
Yeah.

00:07:17.248 --> 00:07:20.728
And the Tibetan book of Living and
Dying Western, Western followers

00:07:20.728 --> 00:07:22.828
of Dai Lamas died to happiness.

00:07:22.858 --> 00:07:24.208
Art of Happiness, yeah.

00:07:24.268 --> 00:07:29.788
Western followers of different, like,
whether it's Aja Cha, the type, Mariana,

00:07:30.418 --> 00:07:36.118
ADA, Buddhist, you know, like they, they
generally have lineage back to lineage,

00:07:36.298 --> 00:07:41.218
an eastern person, but it's a Western
person, generally a white Western person

00:07:41.218 --> 00:07:43.678
who's explaining Buddhism to me in a very.

00:07:44.428 --> 00:07:45.508
Appealing form.

00:07:45.538 --> 00:07:46.108
Well, that was the, yes.

00:07:46.108 --> 00:07:46.618
Essentially.

00:07:46.678 --> 00:07:49.888
Not so much as a religion,
but as a psychological Yes.

00:07:49.888 --> 00:07:51.658
System and a way to, okay.

00:07:51.718 --> 00:07:55.228
So it's being consciously marketed in a
different way to a different audience.

00:07:55.228 --> 00:07:55.528
Right.

00:07:55.528 --> 00:07:59.068
So we've gotta, we've gotta give
some credit to people for being a

00:07:59.068 --> 00:08:02.038
bit sophisticated and understanding
the right ways to talk about it.

00:08:02.458 --> 00:08:07.528
Certain people, the people that came back
in the seventies were like Jack Kornfield.

00:08:08.038 --> 00:08:10.468
Sharon Salzberg, um mm-hmm.

00:08:10.708 --> 00:08:12.148
And they're still around today.

00:08:12.328 --> 00:08:12.958
And what's his name?

00:08:12.958 --> 00:08:13.258
Oliver?

00:08:13.318 --> 00:08:16.078
Uh, um, he, I like him a lot.

00:08:16.138 --> 00:08:17.458
I mean, obviously you're Alan Watts.

00:08:17.518 --> 00:08:18.688
Well, the one that got me through COVID.

00:08:18.688 --> 00:08:18.748
Yeah.

00:08:19.078 --> 00:08:20.578
Thomas Merton Chang Zu.

00:08:20.968 --> 00:08:23.608
The one that got me through COVID
is a guy called Henry Shukman.

00:08:23.728 --> 00:08:24.718
Henry Shukman, yes.

00:08:24.718 --> 00:08:25.318
He's wonderful.

00:08:25.323 --> 00:08:28.648
Who's, um, also a poet,
so he writes beautifully.

00:08:29.233 --> 00:08:34.063
Uh, he's a Zen Buddhist guy, so there's,
I've been influenced a lot by Buddhism.

00:08:34.153 --> 00:08:34.393
Yeah.

00:08:34.510 --> 00:08:41.775
but without ever signing up to the
precepts and the eightfold path and Yeah.

00:08:41.780 --> 00:08:41.980
Yeah.

00:08:41.980 --> 00:08:43.360
You never, you never took a guru.

00:08:43.570 --> 00:08:43.660
Yeah.

00:08:43.660 --> 00:08:46.630
I've got a friend who listens to
this show, actually, who's, um,

00:08:47.290 --> 00:08:51.490
who's just been volunteering at the
local temple and has just taken vows.

00:08:51.640 --> 00:08:51.700
Oh.

00:08:51.700 --> 00:08:55.450
And of course, Ramdas was definitely
leaning pretty heavily on the, well, yeah.

00:08:55.450 --> 00:08:55.470
But see.

00:08:56.170 --> 00:08:57.820
I finally let him go.

00:08:57.820 --> 00:08:57.880
Yeah.

00:08:58.150 --> 00:08:59.440
Let him go.

00:08:59.440 --> 00:09:03.940
Because I said it on the show
last time, like, I can't believe

00:09:04.360 --> 00:09:06.430
what he's told me about his guru.

00:09:06.490 --> 00:09:09.340
And later when he started
talking to a dead person Yeah.

00:09:09.910 --> 00:09:10.870
Called Emmanuel.

00:09:10.960 --> 00:09:13.030
I just can't come at that.

00:09:13.328 --> 00:09:16.663
so I'm trying to have some kind
of weirdly rational spirituality,

00:09:16.663 --> 00:09:19.873
which is quite a creative tension
in spirituality, I've gotta admit.

00:09:20.309 --> 00:09:24.359
Well, this is what I'm saying, like
within this ja, within this very neat

00:09:24.359 --> 00:09:30.719
sounding term, Buddhism lies a wide
range of practices from just fairly kind

00:09:30.719 --> 00:09:35.460
of fairly pure and simple meditation
through to all kinds of elaborate

00:09:35.460 --> 00:09:38.850
ritual and complicated teachings.

00:09:39.065 --> 00:09:41.280
And like Yeah, I've mostly
done simple guided meditations.

00:09:41.340 --> 00:09:41.430
Yeah.

00:09:41.430 --> 00:09:42.330
And read a couple of books.

00:09:43.080 --> 00:09:46.260
That's right and, and then there's
this feeling of like, amongst a lot of

00:09:46.260 --> 00:09:50.370
people, like should I just disregard
this question of harm of karma?

00:09:50.760 --> 00:09:54.630
Because it is a bit problematic
and reincarnation, right?

00:09:54.660 --> 00:09:55.470
Yes.

00:09:55.530 --> 00:09:59.610
Karma and reincarnation are where it
gets, like they ask you to believe

00:09:59.610 --> 00:10:04.200
things that you can't prove, and
that's where religion, you know,

00:10:04.650 --> 00:10:09.870
generally loses me as opposed to my
kind of vague spirituality that I've.

00:10:10.665 --> 00:10:12.105
Had for the last 10 years.

00:10:12.975 --> 00:10:13.965
Yes.

00:10:14.175 --> 00:10:17.385
And I don't think that your sort
of spirituality, uh, or just the

00:10:17.385 --> 00:10:20.685
journey you've been on and the
things you've needed, I don't know

00:10:20.685 --> 00:10:22.575
if karma was gonna add much to it.

00:10:22.815 --> 00:10:24.525
Um, maybe reincarnation.

00:10:25.064 --> 00:10:26.204
all right, shall we do the quote?

00:10:28.154 --> 00:10:30.584
Let's, let's stop teasing everyone.

00:10:30.584 --> 00:10:33.104
So abominably far too much preamble.

00:10:33.419 --> 00:10:36.479
The quote will now make a lot
more sense though, and the

00:10:36.479 --> 00:10:37.889
preamble will make more sense.

00:10:38.609 --> 00:10:41.189
So there's a title given
to it, which is natural.

00:10:41.249 --> 00:10:42.719
Great peace,

00:10:44.729 --> 00:10:46.979
rest in natural, great peace.

00:10:47.249 --> 00:10:53.279
This exhausted mind beaten, helpless
by karma and neurotic thought like

00:10:53.369 --> 00:10:58.679
the relentless fury of pounding waves
in the infinite ocean of Samsara.

00:11:00.029 --> 00:11:00.509
All right.

00:11:00.509 --> 00:11:02.189
Can you, can we line by line it?

00:11:02.609 --> 00:11:03.779
We're gonna have to line by line it.

00:11:04.229 --> 00:11:11.519
So first of all, that does go attribution
goes to no Kempo Jam, young Doge.

00:11:13.349 --> 00:11:16.259
So that's from the Tibetan tradition.

00:11:16.259 --> 00:11:20.039
Rather than say the North Indian tradition
or et cetera, all the other ones,

00:11:20.603 --> 00:11:21.983
rest in natural.

00:11:22.013 --> 00:11:22.943
Great peace.

00:11:23.573 --> 00:11:23.963
Okay.

00:11:23.963 --> 00:11:28.013
So natural, great peace makes
a lot of sense to me from my

00:11:28.283 --> 00:11:29.723
experiences in meditation.

00:11:29.783 --> 00:11:29.933
Mm-hmm.

00:11:30.293 --> 00:11:36.743
There is a natural piece to
consciousness, which was not present

00:11:37.073 --> 00:11:42.593
for me as an adult until I started doing
meditation and then I rediscovered it.

00:11:42.593 --> 00:11:47.423
I probably had it as a child, but,
uh, it was only once I started

00:11:47.423 --> 00:11:52.428
practicing medica meditation, I
found this natural great piece.

00:11:53.093 --> 00:11:54.563
So rest in natural, great.

00:11:54.563 --> 00:11:56.153
Peace makes sense to me.

00:11:56.213 --> 00:11:56.993
What's the next line?

00:11:58.343 --> 00:12:00.593
This exhausted mind.

00:12:01.523 --> 00:12:02.633
Can you relate to that, Sam?

00:12:02.723 --> 00:12:03.173
Oh yeah.

00:12:05.993 --> 00:12:07.253
So, right.

00:12:07.253 --> 00:12:10.313
But I wanna stop for a second, but
I want to, both those two needs to

00:12:10.313 --> 00:12:11.663
be talked about together, right?

00:12:11.693 --> 00:12:17.243
And the, the question I had for you, after
what you said about the first line is.

00:12:18.773 --> 00:12:22.823
You didn't have the natural great
peace maybe did as a child until you

00:12:22.823 --> 00:12:25.883
had meditation, until you did it.

00:12:26.123 --> 00:12:31.643
And how would you describe your
experience of consciousness before that?

00:12:31.643 --> 00:12:36.113
Well, so what I ha what I had was
unnatural great peace, which was

00:12:36.113 --> 00:12:38.663
called being drunk on alcohol.

00:12:38.933 --> 00:12:39.353
Yeah.

00:12:39.383 --> 00:12:42.803
So I had a lot of that
before I stopped drinking.

00:12:43.523 --> 00:12:46.043
It was only natural great peace.

00:12:46.073 --> 00:12:51.473
I only discovered once I stopped drinking
and, and was forced to meditate as

00:12:51.473 --> 00:12:53.693
part of my addiction recovery program.

00:12:54.023 --> 00:12:56.723
Yeah, hang hangovers
are not very peaceful.

00:12:57.143 --> 00:12:57.473
No.

00:12:57.473 --> 00:13:01.583
But when you're actually drunk
and you, you fears drop away

00:13:01.583 --> 00:13:04.043
and like, it's been a while.

00:13:04.043 --> 00:13:06.473
It's been over 10 years for
me, Sam, but I do recall it

00:13:06.473 --> 00:13:07.998
being quite peaceful that time.

00:13:08.783 --> 00:13:09.233
Hmm.

00:13:09.383 --> 00:13:09.683
Yep.

00:13:09.683 --> 00:13:14.123
I remember finding refuge in it and
just suddenly feeling a sensation.

00:13:14.213 --> 00:13:15.833
A sensation of anxiety.

00:13:15.833 --> 00:13:17.393
Like a stopping of something.

00:13:17.573 --> 00:13:17.873
Yeah.

00:13:17.873 --> 00:13:20.483
And, and feeling the thoughts slow down.

00:13:20.543 --> 00:13:20.933
Yeah.

00:13:20.933 --> 00:13:21.813
And things like that.

00:13:21.813 --> 00:13:23.213
Well, even a Valium, you know?

00:13:23.393 --> 00:13:23.693
Yeah.

00:13:23.753 --> 00:13:24.293
Oh boy.

00:13:24.383 --> 00:13:24.713
Valium's.

00:13:24.713 --> 00:13:25.973
Maybe a better version of it.

00:13:25.973 --> 00:13:27.143
I was addicted to that too.

00:13:27.203 --> 00:13:27.893
Great stuff.

00:13:27.893 --> 00:13:29.123
But that's not natural piece.

00:13:29.123 --> 00:13:29.963
Don't recommend this.

00:13:30.018 --> 00:13:31.853
That's not something I can access.

00:13:32.003 --> 00:13:32.333
No.

00:13:32.393 --> 00:13:35.123
The moment I wake up in the morning
without putting a substance into my body.

00:13:35.728 --> 00:13:36.118
Right.

00:13:36.178 --> 00:13:40.918
And so of course I need to make an
acknowledgement here that something there

00:13:40.918 --> 00:13:46.948
are chemical means with that have been,
you know, given proper lab trials and,

00:13:46.948 --> 00:13:51.748
you know, trials out in the na, you know,
in the population to determine whether

00:13:51.748 --> 00:13:53.458
these are suitable and safe, et cetera.

00:13:53.458 --> 00:13:56.488
And leaving aside all the drugs that have
been approved that aren't suitable and

00:13:56.488 --> 00:14:01.122
safe, And acknowledgement that sometimes
a bit of chemical piece is the way to go.

00:14:01.422 --> 00:14:04.272
Um, and you certainly needed
some in Thailand, right?

00:14:04.302 --> 00:14:06.672
Bit of Thorazine or
something that they gave you?

00:14:07.332 --> 00:14:07.872
Yeah.

00:14:07.872 --> 00:14:12.222
I mean, if I'm having a full blown
psychotic episode, I need to be sedated.

00:14:12.777 --> 00:14:15.657
But at this point in my life,
I would say outside of that,

00:14:15.657 --> 00:14:17.157
I don't need to be sedated.

00:14:17.157 --> 00:14:17.997
No, no, no.

00:14:18.002 --> 00:14:22.497
The the, the need doesn't really arise
or you have access to other means of

00:14:22.497 --> 00:14:24.927
sedation or, or to say it like this.

00:14:25.257 --> 00:14:30.507
You are able to self-soothe
often or often enough, and.

00:14:30.927 --> 00:14:35.847
You know, it's on the MHCP questionnaire
that I found myself, um, unable to

00:14:35.847 --> 00:14:38.397
relax or calm down or something.

00:14:38.397 --> 00:14:41.817
Like it's one of the items on the
mental health care Ah, yeah, yeah.

00:14:41.817 --> 00:14:43.017
Plan questionnaire.

00:14:43.047 --> 00:14:43.497
Yeah.

00:14:43.497 --> 00:14:44.847
Never able to relax.

00:14:45.327 --> 00:14:45.627
Yeah.

00:14:45.747 --> 00:14:45.957
Yeah.

00:14:45.957 --> 00:14:49.227
Well that's not really resting
in natural great peace.

00:14:49.347 --> 00:14:52.107
No, it's not this exhausted mind.

00:14:52.287 --> 00:14:52.827
That's right.

00:14:52.887 --> 00:14:54.627
And so what I found, what's the next line?

00:14:55.032 --> 00:14:57.942
Uh, beaten helpless by
karma and neurotic thought.

00:14:58.032 --> 00:14:59.232
Oh my God.

00:14:59.232 --> 00:15:02.622
So a major source of my interest
in alcohol was trying to get

00:15:02.622 --> 00:15:04.362
refuge from neurotic thought.

00:15:04.572 --> 00:15:06.552
Yeah, me too.

00:15:07.692 --> 00:15:08.922
And you still got that?

00:15:09.552 --> 00:15:10.572
You've still got that.

00:15:10.632 --> 00:15:12.042
I mean, I guess I've still got it too.

00:15:12.042 --> 00:15:15.702
I could walk across the road to the ton
and start drinking straight after this.

00:15:16.062 --> 00:15:16.152
Mm-hmm.

00:15:16.452 --> 00:15:19.722
But you've still given yourself
that path if you want it.

00:15:19.992 --> 00:15:20.262
Yeah.

00:15:20.416 --> 00:15:20.686
yeah.

00:15:20.956 --> 00:15:24.466
But yeah, the, I've leaned
on it more lately, I'll say.

00:15:24.644 --> 00:15:27.914
but I also happen to be, I'm
aware that I can put my feet back

00:15:27.914 --> 00:15:30.614
on the path of just not, yeah.

00:15:31.544 --> 00:15:35.264
Yeah, I think most of the pain in my
life has just been from neurotic thought

00:15:35.264 --> 00:15:37.064
much more than whatever's happened to me.

00:15:37.694 --> 00:15:41.114
Well, yeah, and the problems we
cause ourselves, selves are in

00:15:41.114 --> 00:15:42.764
response to the neurotic thought.

00:15:43.484 --> 00:15:46.364
We're either, we're either trying
to pursue the thought and act on it,

00:15:47.114 --> 00:15:48.644
or we're trying to get away from it.

00:15:49.229 --> 00:15:50.729
Either way, it's unhealthy.

00:15:51.239 --> 00:15:51.779
Yeah.

00:15:51.809 --> 00:15:56.009
Someone friend of the show, rainbow
said to me that he thought my

00:15:56.009 --> 00:16:01.199
fascination with LSD was because
I'm a neurotic, and you know, it's

00:16:01.199 --> 00:16:03.269
such a head game with LSD, isn't it?

00:16:03.299 --> 00:16:04.169
It's like it can be.

00:16:04.169 --> 00:16:04.679
That's what I've heard.

00:16:04.679 --> 00:16:05.909
Such intellectual, yeah.

00:16:06.299 --> 00:16:08.009
Such an intellectual trip.

00:16:08.009 --> 00:16:09.449
I don't think it'd be good for me at all.

00:16:09.719 --> 00:16:10.559
You never tried it?

00:16:10.674 --> 00:16:10.894
No.

00:16:11.639 --> 00:16:12.029
Really?

00:16:12.359 --> 00:16:12.629
Yeah.

00:16:12.959 --> 00:16:13.619
Yeah.

00:16:13.679 --> 00:16:16.349
It would be, you'd be an
amazing person to take it.

00:16:16.349 --> 00:16:19.169
I mean, I'm never planning on
taking another LSD trip, but I

00:16:19.169 --> 00:16:20.249
think with me it'd be a hat on.

00:16:20.249 --> 00:16:20.609
A hat.

00:16:22.649 --> 00:16:22.709
Yeah.

00:16:22.709 --> 00:16:25.379
You might just be exactly
the same or, or just.

00:16:26.024 --> 00:16:27.104
Too much.

00:16:27.104 --> 00:16:28.454
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:16:28.514 --> 00:16:32.144
It could get pretty weird in there like,
and I mean that's obviously the point,

00:16:32.144 --> 00:16:33.914
but like it already is very, yeah.

00:16:34.184 --> 00:16:36.794
Labyrinth thing and it would be amazing.

00:16:36.794 --> 00:16:37.424
The cosmic.

00:16:37.424 --> 00:16:37.484
Yeah.

00:16:37.484 --> 00:16:41.834
The talking and laughing, if it was
a good trip would just be next level.

00:16:41.894 --> 00:16:45.584
I'm interested in mushrooms for sure,
but yeah, talking, talking and laughing.

00:16:45.584 --> 00:16:46.424
I'm a big fan anyway.

00:16:46.424 --> 00:16:47.324
That's big fan of that.

00:16:47.324 --> 00:16:49.989
No, it's, this is not a side note
because it's a bit of a sidetrack.

00:16:50.729 --> 00:16:52.679
No, because you tried to
find peace through LSD.

00:16:52.679 --> 00:16:54.329
You were trying to work out some things.

00:16:54.389 --> 00:16:58.889
You were trying to, you know, I thought
for the longest time, Sam, I thought

00:16:58.889 --> 00:17:00.599
I could think my way through life.

00:17:00.604 --> 00:17:02.999
You thought you could
engineer your way through it?

00:17:03.179 --> 00:17:03.359
Yes.

00:17:03.364 --> 00:17:04.799
I thought I could think things through.

00:17:04.859 --> 00:17:04.979
Yes.

00:17:04.979 --> 00:17:07.439
And then I would understand
and then I would be okay.

00:17:07.499 --> 00:17:09.719
And I've had to surrender
and realize doesn't work.

00:17:09.719 --> 00:17:10.649
It's quite the opposite.

00:17:11.054 --> 00:17:14.654
I need to actually ex
ignore 99% of my thinking.

00:17:14.714 --> 00:17:14.864
Yeah.

00:17:15.494 --> 00:17:17.534
And rest in natural great peace.

00:17:17.684 --> 00:17:18.194
Yes.

00:17:18.374 --> 00:17:20.954
And just do the next right
thing that's in front of me.

00:17:21.164 --> 00:17:21.644
Yes.

00:17:21.704 --> 00:17:26.279
Uh, and there's really very little
thinking that I need to act upon.

00:17:26.624 --> 00:17:27.044
Yes.

00:17:27.044 --> 00:17:30.494
But yeah, I mean, like the
quote said, I've been beaten

00:17:30.494 --> 00:17:33.734
helpless by neurotic thought.

00:17:34.004 --> 00:17:36.249
You know, it's almost like, why
do we even need karma in there?

00:17:37.604 --> 00:17:40.979
Yeah, well that question, you are
hopefully gonna explain karma to me.

00:17:41.099 --> 00:17:44.879
You're gonna Sam Splain karma To me, that
was what I was hoping, partly for this

00:17:44.879 --> 00:17:46.139
quote, but what's the rest of the quote?

00:17:46.319 --> 00:17:46.649
Okay.

00:17:46.649 --> 00:17:47.429
It's not that long.

00:17:47.519 --> 00:17:47.759
No.

00:17:47.819 --> 00:17:48.389
We're nearly there.

00:17:48.929 --> 00:17:52.109
Beaten, helpless by karma
and neurotic thought like the

00:17:52.109 --> 00:17:54.239
relentless fury of pounding waves.

00:17:54.389 --> 00:17:57.869
So that's really just a nice
metaphor to underscore the, the,

00:17:58.709 --> 00:18:01.379
you know, this is really just an
illustration of the, the nouns.

00:18:01.439 --> 00:18:01.619
Yeah.

00:18:01.619 --> 00:18:04.019
Mentioned in the previous
line Karma, neurotic thought.

00:18:04.829 --> 00:18:08.999
Uh, then likened to pounding waves,
sort of, I guess eroding rock.

00:18:09.089 --> 00:18:09.449
Yeah.

00:18:09.509 --> 00:18:10.889
With their relentlessness.

00:18:11.489 --> 00:18:13.319
And the mind is not like rock, is it?

00:18:14.729 --> 00:18:16.679
No, it's much more like
water, I would've said.

00:18:16.889 --> 00:18:17.159
Yeah.

00:18:17.219 --> 00:18:21.719
Um, but in the infinite ocean of samsara.

00:18:21.719 --> 00:18:21.899
Okay.

00:18:21.899 --> 00:18:24.449
So an appropriate metaphor
to follow from the waves.

00:18:24.929 --> 00:18:25.259
Now.

00:18:25.844 --> 00:18:26.864
Two more interesting noun.

00:18:26.864 --> 00:18:28.574
So the, the two ocean and samsara.

00:18:28.604 --> 00:18:28.874
Yeah.

00:18:28.904 --> 00:18:31.244
So the two things I need help with that.

00:18:31.304 --> 00:18:33.644
So I love this quote and I
read it every day for a year.

00:18:33.704 --> 00:18:36.104
It's cool, I like it, but I
don't really know what karma is.

00:18:36.104 --> 00:18:41.804
I have some like, um, rudimentary
understanding and I don't really know

00:18:41.804 --> 00:18:44.354
what Samsara is, but you know, everything.

00:18:44.414 --> 00:18:51.584
And you also mentioned, uh, great
good Sam Samsara was part of the Hindu

00:18:51.584 --> 00:18:53.564
tradition as well, was karma as well.

00:18:53.879 --> 00:18:54.299
Yes.

00:18:54.329 --> 00:18:58.589
So Karma and Samsara are terms
you grew up with in Hari Krish

00:18:58.589 --> 00:18:59.729
in the Hari Krishna world.

00:18:59.849 --> 00:19:00.359
Yes.

00:19:00.449 --> 00:19:03.869
And do they have the same meaning
as in Tibetan Buddhism or similar?

00:19:03.899 --> 00:19:08.309
Okay, well here's where I could have spent
some time on Wikipedia first because,

00:19:08.339 --> 00:19:11.369
sorry, Wikipedia is a, is a good website.

00:19:11.489 --> 00:19:12.929
Um, but no, no, no.

00:19:12.929 --> 00:19:15.389
I can say with the level of
confidence that there will

00:19:15.389 --> 00:19:17.009
not be a radically different.

00:19:17.339 --> 00:19:20.879
Teaching on karma and Samsara and
the, the thing I really feel bad

00:19:20.879 --> 00:19:24.869
about not looking up, and I did know
this at one point, who borrowed what?

00:19:24.869 --> 00:19:25.379
From who?

00:19:25.979 --> 00:19:26.429
Ah, yeah.

00:19:26.429 --> 00:19:28.499
But that's a bit of a sidebar are Sure.

00:19:28.559 --> 00:19:31.649
I'm trying to apply it to my
life in Melbourne in 2026.

00:19:31.799 --> 00:19:34.529
So I don't wanna get, I don't
want to make any claims about.

00:19:35.204 --> 00:19:37.544
Hinduism had this notion,
then Buddhism took it.

00:19:38.324 --> 00:19:41.264
Uh, because when you say Hinduism, it's
like, well, what are we referring to here?

00:19:41.264 --> 00:19:44.894
Are we referring to like 10, I
dunno, five to 10,000 years of

00:19:44.894 --> 00:19:49.274
evolving belief and polytheism
and sort of daily ritual practice?

00:19:49.574 --> 00:19:53.444
Or are you referring to stuff
that's in the piranhas and the

00:19:53.474 --> 00:19:55.004
Vaders and the Erford Gita?

00:19:55.094 --> 00:19:56.264
Uh, well, yeah.

00:19:56.639 --> 00:19:58.259
Those are all tied together some way.

00:19:58.372 --> 00:20:01.522
but it's not that, it's like when
we talk about ancient Egypt, right?

00:20:01.522 --> 00:20:03.622
It makes it sound like a sort
of several hundred year period.

00:20:03.622 --> 00:20:08.842
Well, it's not, it's like a time span
of like 5,000 years and different

00:20:08.842 --> 00:20:10.222
things happened all through that.

00:20:10.522 --> 00:20:14.362
So the same goes with Hinduism, Buddhism,
but the two things, uh, the two.

00:20:14.737 --> 00:20:17.497
Words have been closely tied
together for a long time, and

00:20:17.497 --> 00:20:20.827
they've exchanged ideas and they've
influenced one another enormously.

00:20:22.027 --> 00:20:25.295
So Karma came from one and
was taken by the other.

00:20:25.295 --> 00:20:28.115
And, uh, Samsara also.

00:20:28.595 --> 00:20:32.135
So I think it's a Sanskrit word, karma
and samsara, both Sanskrit words.

00:20:32.135 --> 00:20:36.492
So I'm inclined to say it comes from,
The, the Hindu side of it, but it's a

00:20:36.492 --> 00:20:41.082
teaching that actions have reactions.

00:20:42.222 --> 00:20:42.642
Okay.

00:20:42.702 --> 00:20:44.712
That's pretty simple so far.

00:20:44.712 --> 00:20:51.095
So Newtonian universe, the earth, mass,
mass exerts gravity towards me, right?

00:20:51.315 --> 00:20:54.740
But I also exert a very
insignificant amount of gravity.

00:20:55.361 --> 00:20:57.161
It's back towards the earth also.

00:20:57.484 --> 00:21:01.054
and so in the, you know, Newtonian
physics, everything's like

00:21:01.054 --> 00:21:05.104
quite exquisitely balanced and
symmetrical, and it's, it's nice.

00:21:05.194 --> 00:21:10.894
It's what Einstein called the, you know,
the, the blind watchmaker, you know,

00:21:10.894 --> 00:21:14.729
like the ex, this exquisitely designed
mechanical universe where everything runs.

00:21:15.514 --> 00:21:16.144
Perfectly.

00:21:16.834 --> 00:21:20.734
And then he comes and com complicates
the picture with relativity and

00:21:20.914 --> 00:21:22.264
you know, quantum stuff, right?

00:21:22.384 --> 00:21:25.924
So ham's a little bit
Newtonian in some ways.

00:21:25.924 --> 00:21:27.994
It's like, it's very,
you know, one for one.

00:21:28.684 --> 00:21:31.984
You know, you do this sort of thing,
it's gonna come back on you in more

00:21:31.984 --> 00:21:34.324
or less inverse equal proportion.

00:21:34.504 --> 00:21:34.804
Right.

00:21:35.554 --> 00:21:38.494
But it may come back
to you in a later life.

00:21:38.764 --> 00:21:39.124
Mm-hmm.

00:21:39.184 --> 00:21:40.684
So this is where it gets troubling.

00:21:40.984 --> 00:21:43.654
So it's not just what I've
done since I was born.

00:21:43.774 --> 00:21:43.894
Mm-hmm.

00:21:44.884 --> 00:21:46.504
Causing my life situation.

00:21:46.504 --> 00:21:46.729
No, no.

00:21:46.734 --> 00:21:47.884
It's past lives.

00:21:48.184 --> 00:21:48.514
Oh yeah.

00:21:48.514 --> 00:21:50.329
I find that hard one to come at.

00:21:50.329 --> 00:21:54.769
This is all, look, people struggle enough
with the idea that they should feel.

00:21:55.654 --> 00:21:58.684
Any sort of responsibility towards
things their ancestors did.

00:21:58.684 --> 00:22:03.092
And by the way, I'm actually with Viktor
Frankl on this one who said, you know,

00:22:03.092 --> 00:22:07.082
in Germany where he said, no, there's
nothing to be gained From the teaching

00:22:07.082 --> 00:22:11.192
and preaching and insistence on a
doctrine of collective guilt, people

00:22:11.192 --> 00:22:14.912
will eventually become hostile to that
notion and they'll reject the notion

00:22:14.912 --> 00:22:18.602
of collective guilt for things that
they weren't physically present for.

00:22:19.262 --> 00:22:23.342
And that will get in the way of the
real work, which is just to try and be

00:22:23.342 --> 00:22:29.882
objective about what actually happened
and to have an interest in how you have a

00:22:29.882 --> 00:22:33.842
better future without like, who's with me?

00:22:34.052 --> 00:22:35.252
Let's have a better future.

00:22:35.342 --> 00:22:35.672
Right?

00:22:35.702 --> 00:22:41.424
That, that's the framing, not like
a kind of, um, insistence on, guilt

00:22:41.424 --> 00:22:43.044
and, and sort of neurosis, right.

00:22:43.189 --> 00:22:46.519
So, and practical terms, and a
Hindu would say, well, yeah, Kamel

00:22:46.519 --> 00:22:47.899
would sort it all out anyway.

00:22:48.289 --> 00:22:52.309
And the universe is keeping track and
will apportion the responsibilities.

00:22:52.459 --> 00:22:55.459
So when they're so alright, here I,
I'll reduce it to practical terms.

00:22:55.459 --> 00:22:58.909
So right now I'm very single.

00:22:59.689 --> 00:23:00.889
Right, right.

00:23:00.889 --> 00:23:01.909
And I can look at.

00:23:02.539 --> 00:23:07.219
My lifetime of actions
or my adulthood at least.

00:23:07.219 --> 00:23:09.979
So let's say 25 years of actions.

00:23:10.069 --> 00:23:10.159
Mm-hmm.

00:23:10.579 --> 00:23:14.389
And it's very clear, I don't know if
you'd call it karma, but there's a

00:23:14.389 --> 00:23:18.979
very clear cause and effect that has
led me to be completely single without

00:23:18.979 --> 00:23:20.779
a single prospect of going on a date.

00:23:20.869 --> 00:23:22.759
So you've, you feel
like you've earned this?

00:23:22.819 --> 00:23:26.959
Yeah, it's completely, I can take
full a hundred percent responsibility.

00:23:26.959 --> 00:23:27.889
I have made.

00:23:28.609 --> 00:23:31.459
This situation, which I So you're
not, don't like the situation.

00:23:31.459 --> 00:23:33.349
So you're not a grievance
m mongering incel.

00:23:34.309 --> 00:23:34.669
No.

00:23:34.669 --> 00:23:37.729
There's, there's a reason
why I'm single and it's me.

00:23:38.149 --> 00:23:41.509
But that's different from saying
there's a reason why I'm single

00:23:41.509 --> 00:23:44.839
and it's because of what happened
300 years ago in a past life.

00:23:45.979 --> 00:23:48.589
Well, no, I mean, the karma
could be much more proximate.

00:23:48.799 --> 00:23:49.219
Right?

00:23:49.309 --> 00:23:53.389
It doesn't, I mean, the, so, okay,
so then you have to pair it with

00:23:53.389 --> 00:23:54.859
the idea of reincarnation, right?

00:23:55.009 --> 00:23:55.369
So.

00:23:55.579 --> 00:23:58.009
So it basically goes like this.

00:23:58.909 --> 00:24:03.889
The universe is on a wheel of
creation and destruction, uh,

00:24:03.919 --> 00:24:05.809
over like millions of years.

00:24:06.199 --> 00:24:11.569
In fact, universes, remember, okay,
you've got a picture of Vishnu with

00:24:11.569 --> 00:24:16.519
these forearms lying on a bed of
snakes and un shaha with a hundred

00:24:16.519 --> 00:24:22.729
heads, reciting the vaders constantly
like a snake with a hundred heads and

00:24:22.759 --> 00:24:24.529
Lakshmi goddess a fortune is there.

00:24:25.114 --> 00:24:30.604
That's the two, uh, uh, the
sort of simultaneous male female

00:24:30.934 --> 00:24:33.514
manifestation of the one, right?

00:24:33.559 --> 00:24:36.901
And, uh, so God is not he
or she, it's both right.

00:24:37.051 --> 00:24:43.231
And then out of Vishnu's, pause,
uh, the universe has come.

00:24:43.831 --> 00:24:45.716
So with like every breath in and out.

00:24:46.471 --> 00:24:50.521
The universe, the universes come in and
are destroyed and then go out again.

00:24:50.911 --> 00:24:54.601
And inside each one of those
little bubbles, they were sort

00:24:54.601 --> 00:24:56.941
of visualized as for me as a kid.

00:24:57.631 --> 00:25:01.591
There's a Vishnu on a bed of snakes
and there's a Brahma growing a Brahma

00:25:01.591 --> 00:25:05.131
sitting in the lotus flower growing
out of, uh, the navel of Vishnu.

00:25:05.731 --> 00:25:11.731
And then sort of inside that is contained
the world and inside that lotus flower and

00:25:11.731 --> 00:25:14.581
barma is, uh, maintaining that universe.

00:25:15.166 --> 00:25:18.616
That little universe until Shiva
comes along and destroys it, raga.

00:25:20.026 --> 00:25:22.966
And you know, the guy with the
dreadlocks and the Trident.

00:25:23.547 --> 00:25:25.527
what's that got to do
with me being so single?

00:25:25.617 --> 00:25:31.407
Well, all of this is a cycle that goes on
and on and on endlessly, and that inside

00:25:31.407 --> 00:25:33.927
of each one of those little universes.

00:25:35.442 --> 00:25:39.522
Is a cycle of birth and death carried
out by millions and millions of souls.

00:25:39.522 --> 00:25:46.032
Continuously each one on the same
wheel, the same wheel of samsara.

00:25:47.112 --> 00:25:53.022
So samsara is sometimes characterized
as an ocean of of uncertainty and.

00:25:54.117 --> 00:25:54.537
Trouble.

00:25:54.537 --> 00:25:55.797
It's a stormy place.

00:25:55.797 --> 00:25:57.087
It can be calm at times.

00:25:57.627 --> 00:26:00.837
An ocean of misery and
uncertainty and suffering.

00:26:01.047 --> 00:26:03.987
Others call it, this is get
back, this gets back to what my

00:26:03.987 --> 00:26:05.547
psychiatrist friend calling it.

00:26:05.547 --> 00:26:06.147
Depressive.

00:26:06.147 --> 00:26:06.207
Yeah.

00:26:06.387 --> 00:26:07.917
It is a little religion.

00:26:07.977 --> 00:26:11.337
It is not a super life-affirming take.

00:26:11.597 --> 00:26:12.977
the forest fire of existence.

00:26:13.067 --> 00:26:17.357
Others translate samsara as the
forest fire of existence and

00:26:17.357 --> 00:26:21.682
others does talk about it as
the, the, the endless cycle of.

00:26:22.712 --> 00:26:26.672
Uh, birth Karma, death,
birth, karma, death.

00:26:26.672 --> 00:26:27.302
Just on and on and on.

00:26:27.302 --> 00:26:27.392
Yeah.

00:26:27.722 --> 00:26:31.112
Because the goal of Buddhism is
Nirvana, which means you finally get

00:26:31.112 --> 00:26:34.802
off the cycle of birth and death, but
then that's a bit depressive because

00:26:34.802 --> 00:26:37.412
that means you finally cease to exist.

00:26:37.412 --> 00:26:38.942
But that is, well, exactly.

00:26:39.122 --> 00:26:41.462
So the main difference
CEA to exist is the great.

00:26:42.167 --> 00:26:43.607
That's the prize you win.

00:26:43.817 --> 00:26:46.187
So the short cut to the end of Buddhism
would be just to kill yourself.

00:26:46.187 --> 00:26:46.907
No, no, no.

00:26:47.117 --> 00:26:49.247
But then you incur, you
incur karma for doing that.

00:26:49.252 --> 00:26:50.597
Yeah, yeah, that's right.

00:26:50.657 --> 00:26:51.077
Trigger.

00:26:51.137 --> 00:26:53.177
Sorry, I'm not endorsing any of this.

00:26:53.177 --> 00:26:56.507
I'm just letting you know what
I know about it as in terms of

00:26:56.927 --> 00:26:58.637
what the doctrine is about it.

00:26:59.267 --> 00:27:03.107
It's a strange goal to want end
the cycle of birth and death and

00:27:03.107 --> 00:27:04.757
get off the wheel of samsara.

00:27:04.817 --> 00:27:05.357
Well, here's the thing.

00:27:05.357 --> 00:27:06.407
It's a strange goal.

00:27:06.437 --> 00:27:06.677
Yeah.

00:27:06.677 --> 00:27:11.657
Your total goal is, uh,
extinction, essentially.

00:27:12.077 --> 00:27:17.117
Extinction of a particular form
of experience, which then gets

00:27:17.117 --> 00:27:18.497
transformed into something else.

00:27:18.497 --> 00:27:21.887
It's actually not extinction,
it's just for that person.

00:27:21.977 --> 00:27:26.777
They merged with the one and cease
to have a separate consciousness,

00:27:27.137 --> 00:27:31.187
but they, but they experience
a single unified consciousness.

00:27:31.397 --> 00:27:33.167
And is that, does that at least feel good?

00:27:33.467 --> 00:27:36.602
I think you, you've experienced
it so you can tell me.

00:27:37.667 --> 00:27:38.027
Hmm.

00:27:38.057 --> 00:27:40.487
Where you felt there was just
one consciousness and that

00:27:40.487 --> 00:27:41.897
there was no separate self.

00:27:42.737 --> 00:27:43.817
Yes.

00:27:43.907 --> 00:27:47.747
You're already kind of there
if you check in with it.

00:27:47.747 --> 00:27:47.807
Yeah.

00:27:47.837 --> 00:27:48.077
Mm-hmm.

00:27:48.347 --> 00:27:51.767
Which is what we tried to talk
about on the last episode.

00:27:51.917 --> 00:27:52.037
Yeah.

00:27:52.037 --> 00:27:55.847
I got some feedback from friend of
the show Ollie as well, who said, gee.

00:27:56.237 --> 00:27:58.007
No self is hard to talk about.

00:27:58.607 --> 00:27:59.387
Yeah.

00:27:59.477 --> 00:28:02.297
And uh, Ollie's gone pretty
deep with it himself at times.

00:28:02.297 --> 00:28:06.557
So yeah, the negation of the self is a
pursuit of many, many of us have had.

00:28:06.557 --> 00:28:11.397
Well, yeah, just investigating and
finding no self, but it's tied up with.

00:28:12.257 --> 00:28:16.247
Yeah, but see here's an, alright,
so, so I haven't really been

00:28:16.247 --> 00:28:17.627
able to explain why I'm single.

00:28:17.807 --> 00:28:18.257
No, well, hang on minute.

00:28:18.257 --> 00:28:18.557
Sorry.

00:28:18.587 --> 00:28:20.987
I explained why I'm single
without using karma.

00:28:21.047 --> 00:28:21.887
I'm getting to that.

00:28:21.887 --> 00:28:21.977
Right?

00:28:21.977 --> 00:28:24.707
But, so if you wanted to use Karma
as a framework for that Yeah.

00:28:24.737 --> 00:28:31.307
It's this simple in your, so I had to
say all of that about the cycle, right?

00:28:31.427 --> 00:28:35.329
And how, because of the nature of
so, so here's the real bit bastard

00:28:35.329 --> 00:28:37.039
of a bitch, of a part of it, right?

00:28:37.669 --> 00:28:37.879
So.

00:28:40.309 --> 00:28:44.509
The, the problem is that because of the
miserable nature of samsara, this ex,

00:28:44.539 --> 00:28:49.549
this difficult, troubled existence we
have here a, a separate to the oneness

00:28:49.669 --> 00:28:54.139
or in the ha krishna teaching separate to
the divine personality of God, Krishna to

00:28:54.139 --> 00:28:59.359
whom all the gods will merge back into all
the mortals we'll merge back into, and we

00:28:59.359 --> 00:29:02.059
actually are all infinitely mort immortal.

00:29:02.689 --> 00:29:03.559
But if we.

00:29:03.844 --> 00:29:06.994
Separate our consciousness away from
God and try to enjoy separately and have

00:29:06.994 --> 00:29:12.094
independent thought and free will that we
will inevitably then have to experience

00:29:12.094 --> 00:29:17.014
suffering and temporariness and, and with
temporariness comes grasping and clinging

00:29:17.014 --> 00:29:20.404
and with grasping and clinging, come
neurotic thoughts, et cetera, et cetera.

00:29:20.554 --> 00:29:20.644
Yes.

00:29:20.644 --> 00:29:23.674
And then, and then because of this
disease state that these mortals are in.

00:29:23.974 --> 00:29:27.844
They will do bad things to each other
and then constantly incur more karma.

00:29:27.844 --> 00:29:28.999
Okay, this is making sense.

00:29:28.999 --> 00:29:30.214
So it's a horrible setup.

00:29:30.304 --> 00:29:30.724
Yeah.

00:29:30.844 --> 00:29:34.324
So if I merge with the one and
realize that I am the one and there

00:29:34.324 --> 00:29:37.324
is no separate joke, you'll stop
doing bad stuff to other people, then

00:29:37.504 --> 00:29:39.454
clinging and craving will drop away.

00:29:39.484 --> 00:29:44.764
They won't make any sense and I won't
even want to girlfriend or it will

00:29:44.824 --> 00:29:48.934
not matter to you either way, and
that you will be a being of such.

00:29:49.864 --> 00:29:54.664
Just sort of effortless peace and
benness that people will be drawn to you.

00:29:54.964 --> 00:29:55.744
That sounds good.

00:29:56.014 --> 00:29:56.344
Yeah.

00:29:57.364 --> 00:30:01.924
And, and that, you know, you'll,
you'll be perfectly capable of

00:30:03.214 --> 00:30:07.054
taking up a, a, a loving, equal
commitment to another human being.

00:30:07.144 --> 00:30:08.764
Oh, this sounds great, doesn't it?

00:30:08.764 --> 00:30:08.914
Jess?

00:30:08.914 --> 00:30:09.844
How do I do this bit?

00:30:10.114 --> 00:30:12.214
Well, I think it's a lot of the
things you're already doing, I guess.

00:30:12.214 --> 00:30:15.664
Meditation, therapy, um, not taking toin.

00:30:16.069 --> 00:30:19.759
Yeah, following a, you know, consciously
following a program of, of staying

00:30:19.759 --> 00:30:24.259
sober and, and, and getting, getting the
maintenance you need on a look after,

00:30:24.259 --> 00:30:26.539
you know, look out for your own garden.

00:30:26.539 --> 00:30:31.489
Keep that consciousness as good as
you can get it, and be humble and make

00:30:31.489 --> 00:30:35.634
sacrifices and give a, you know, live a
life of service and all this because they

00:30:35.754 --> 00:30:37.129
tell you about the karma and all that.

00:30:37.129 --> 00:30:38.779
And then they go, well,
here's the good news.

00:30:39.229 --> 00:30:43.639
If you pray and, and, and worship and do
charitable acts, well, here's the problem.

00:30:43.699 --> 00:30:46.249
Charitable acts also
incur good karma, right?

00:30:46.339 --> 00:30:48.769
Which sounds good, except you
have to then get reborn in

00:30:48.769 --> 00:30:50.509
order to receive the good karma.

00:30:50.809 --> 00:30:54.889
And some people get reborn just to
cop a really p awful piece of bad

00:30:54.889 --> 00:31:00.979
karma, like cystic fibrosis diet
30, uh, others are born to die

00:31:00.979 --> 00:31:02.509
even sooner and more miserably.

00:31:02.569 --> 00:31:06.649
You know, Richard, the third or whatever
make make it to 23 and get the, get

00:31:06.649 --> 00:31:08.389
the throne for two seconds and then.

00:31:08.809 --> 00:31:10.489
Eat it at the next battle, right?

00:31:10.527 --> 00:31:15.117
I often think about the sort of
short lives of people in history and

00:31:16.017 --> 00:31:19.797
the, the tormented harried existence
that some of these sort of like

00:31:20.277 --> 00:31:23.907
great figures of history actually
experienced a pretty restless life.

00:31:23.907 --> 00:31:26.757
So, so what do they say about someone
who's living a long and happy life

00:31:27.747 --> 00:31:30.687
that they've probably managed to incur?

00:31:31.917 --> 00:31:37.077
Very little bad karma in recent lives
because of the, there is one little get

00:31:37.077 --> 00:31:42.717
out card, which is one little sliver of
hope, which is that the human form of life

00:31:43.377 --> 00:31:48.987
comes with a blessing and a curse known
as consciousness, and that the experience

00:31:48.987 --> 00:31:50.247
of consciousness is very difficult.

00:31:51.687 --> 00:31:55.587
Animals are not troubled by the
conscious, the degree of consciousness

00:31:55.587 --> 00:31:56.967
that other species possess.

00:31:56.967 --> 00:31:57.627
We can debate.

00:31:58.047 --> 00:32:00.987
We may even get it, get it
one day and fully understand.

00:32:01.977 --> 00:32:06.477
But for the majority, majority of mammals
ex engage in fairly predictable behavior,

00:32:06.477 --> 00:32:07.977
and you could argue that humans do too.

00:32:08.697 --> 00:32:11.787
But humans have this other layer,
which is awareness of mortality.

00:32:11.877 --> 00:32:14.487
Uh, they've got an ego concept.

00:32:14.517 --> 00:32:17.487
They've got a theory of mind of others,
which means we're plagued by thoughts

00:32:17.487 --> 00:32:19.797
about what others think about us.

00:32:20.007 --> 00:32:22.557
And we're either selfish and
declare all the other minds to

00:32:22.557 --> 00:32:26.787
just be a, an extension of our own
consciousness that's called solecism.

00:32:27.357 --> 00:32:33.237
Or we become overly concerned with the
minds of others and that sort of self

00:32:33.237 --> 00:32:37.591
abandonment, Uh, or in some way we just
find our own consciousness intolerable

00:32:37.801 --> 00:32:41.731
and try to sort of wipe it out or,
or blanket or deny it in some way.

00:32:42.301 --> 00:32:45.361
And one of the ways that people
deny that or try to deal with the

00:32:45.361 --> 00:32:49.291
discomfort of their consciousness,
this is the teachings I had as a kid.

00:32:49.861 --> 00:32:58.441
They seek refuge in drugs or gambling
or intimacy and just seek to use

00:32:58.441 --> 00:33:00.211
others to make themselves feel better.

00:33:00.661 --> 00:33:02.191
And that this, uh.

00:33:02.761 --> 00:33:08.971
Is understandable, but unfortunately to
the degree, I guess what the karma people

00:33:08.971 --> 00:33:14.791
might say, Joe, is that to the degree
you left others feeling dissatisfied that

00:33:14.791 --> 00:33:17.371
you then had to experience that yourself.

00:33:17.431 --> 00:33:21.061
Yeah, see I'm, I think I'm on board
with karma within my one lifetime

00:33:21.091 --> 00:33:23.041
that I can verifiably, say exists.

00:33:23.041 --> 00:33:25.141
So that's what most people will agree to.

00:33:25.546 --> 00:33:26.086
Yeah.

00:33:26.296 --> 00:33:26.566
Yeah.

00:33:26.626 --> 00:33:30.646
I can't, I'll own the actions I've done
in this life and pay the price of them.

00:33:30.736 --> 00:33:37.006
And that's exactly where I think
I am with my, uh, dating life.

00:33:37.066 --> 00:33:39.796
Because in your early twenties, you were
a bit selfish to your girlfriends, right?

00:33:40.606 --> 00:33:42.826
Oh, I've been an asshole
the whole way through.

00:33:43.636 --> 00:33:43.906
Yeah.

00:33:43.906 --> 00:33:48.196
Up until, you know, a month ago you
did a better job in marriage though,

00:33:48.196 --> 00:33:49.456
than you might have thought, right?

00:33:49.486 --> 00:33:50.236
I tried.

00:33:50.566 --> 00:33:56.206
I tried hard and, you know, I'm, I'm
having, I'm having a much, I'm having

00:33:56.206 --> 00:34:00.496
a completely positive experience as a
father with none of this shit that has

00:34:00.496 --> 00:34:03.196
gone on with women that I've dated.

00:34:03.886 --> 00:34:03.916
Mm.

00:34:03.916 --> 00:34:07.456
Whereas I'm raising two daughters
and doing a good job of it

00:34:07.666 --> 00:34:08.956
to the best of my ability.

00:34:09.451 --> 00:34:12.271
And then have a very bonded and
loving relationship with them.

00:34:12.479 --> 00:34:16.019
you know, so that is like good karma.

00:34:16.229 --> 00:34:19.104
That is like, yeah, I
think that the stuff.

00:34:20.044 --> 00:34:22.079
The, the stuff that happens
between parents and children,

00:34:22.079 --> 00:34:23.849
it can really feel karmic to me.

00:34:23.849 --> 00:34:25.139
I've definitely experienced that.

00:34:25.139 --> 00:34:29.009
Whereas oth other people will say
almost intergenerational trauma and

00:34:29.009 --> 00:34:31.229
you know, you've gotta be conscious
of it and like try to head it.

00:34:31.259 --> 00:34:35.849
You know, don't, don't perpetuate
stuff if you can help it and Yeah.

00:34:35.849 --> 00:34:38.549
Well I grew up in a household
where both my parents drank

00:34:38.549 --> 00:34:39.659
every night and smoke weed.

00:34:39.959 --> 00:34:40.379
Yeah.

00:34:40.379 --> 00:34:40.389
Yeah.

00:34:40.739 --> 00:34:42.989
And they've grown up in a
household where I haven't had a

00:34:42.989 --> 00:34:45.449
single drink in over 10 years.

00:34:45.479 --> 00:34:46.439
You changed that.

00:34:46.814 --> 00:34:47.414
Script.

00:34:47.474 --> 00:34:47.774
Yeah.

00:34:47.774 --> 00:34:49.124
Change the epigenetics.

00:34:49.664 --> 00:34:49.904
Yeah.

00:34:49.904 --> 00:34:51.314
Well that too, not just the script.

00:34:51.314 --> 00:34:52.214
Yeah, the epigenetics.

00:34:52.214 --> 00:34:52.394
Yeah.

00:34:52.424 --> 00:34:52.814
Yeah.

00:34:52.844 --> 00:34:57.314
So, and it's paying off now that
they're teenagers, they, they really

00:34:57.314 --> 00:35:02.924
like me, you know, and yeah, you've
not managed to earn their contempt.

00:35:03.164 --> 00:35:07.784
You've not managed to like earn some
sort of cops and bad karma back from

00:35:07.784 --> 00:35:09.019
them sort of thing because Yeah.

00:35:09.024 --> 00:35:09.374
Yeah.

00:35:09.374 --> 00:35:14.204
And it's been suggested to me by a
psychologist that maybe I could extend

00:35:14.204 --> 00:35:15.824
this person that I am as a father.

00:35:16.589 --> 00:35:20.159
Into other areas of my life,
whether it's work or dating.

00:35:20.159 --> 00:35:20.249
Mm-hmm.

00:35:20.819 --> 00:35:23.069
Well, this is what I was gonna
say before, and she's stolen

00:35:23.069 --> 00:35:24.509
my thunder, this new therapist.

00:35:24.539 --> 00:35:24.899
Okay.

00:35:24.899 --> 00:35:26.129
So, no, no, that was the old one.

00:35:26.129 --> 00:35:26.849
That was the old one.

00:35:26.879 --> 00:35:28.589
Well, I mean, yeah, yeah.

00:35:28.589 --> 00:35:29.129
I agree.

00:35:29.339 --> 00:35:33.269
But I was like, oh, I could be the way
I am with my kids, with other people.

00:35:33.269 --> 00:35:33.719
Yes.

00:35:33.719 --> 00:35:35.759
But I don't love them unconditionally.

00:35:36.149 --> 00:35:37.859
I don't see myself in them.

00:35:38.609 --> 00:35:38.969
You know?

00:35:38.969 --> 00:35:41.279
It's completely different relationship.

00:35:41.399 --> 00:35:41.759
No, no.

00:35:41.819 --> 00:35:42.239
Yeah, I know.

00:35:42.239 --> 00:35:42.719
I agree.

00:35:42.719 --> 00:35:44.519
Right on the surface, that makes sense.

00:35:45.104 --> 00:35:49.267
So, but I'm also just want to echo your
experience of finding that whatever

00:35:49.267 --> 00:35:52.537
happened in relationships in your life
that you could make sense of it and

00:35:52.537 --> 00:35:57.877
that you were not, um, you felt no
entitlement to any sense of grievance

00:35:57.907 --> 00:35:59.497
or that it was someone else's fault.

00:36:00.097 --> 00:36:04.417
Uh, and that you could see how and why the
things you did led to where it ended up.

00:36:04.627 --> 00:36:04.957
Right.

00:36:05.137 --> 00:36:06.457
So that's a, that's a really good.

00:36:06.847 --> 00:36:09.037
Place of accountability to
end up at, and that gives me

00:36:09.037 --> 00:36:10.147
a lot of hope for your future.

00:36:10.237 --> 00:36:15.547
Now, I'll also say that I've, you
know, there were times when I was on

00:36:15.547 --> 00:36:20.437
the, I was on the miserable end of
things and, you know, just feeling,

00:36:20.654 --> 00:36:24.644
unmet needs and not heard and so
on, and I had to reflect that.

00:36:24.674 --> 00:36:26.294
Well, that's how I made others feel.

00:36:26.714 --> 00:36:31.394
And so maybe there is something in
this karma thing, but I would prefer

00:36:31.394 --> 00:36:33.134
to just call it a metaphor for what.

00:36:33.509 --> 00:36:36.059
The actual accountability mechanisms
are, you know, well, lemme ask you

00:36:36.059 --> 00:36:39.869
this, Sam, you're not a practicing Hari
Krishna anymore, so clearly I don't

00:36:39.869 --> 00:36:44.459
see a value in the, yeah, well, well,
do you see value in the concepts of,

00:36:44.819 --> 00:36:51.151
um, Samsara and Karma, or do you reject
them now as, unscientific, uh, nonsense?

00:36:51.301 --> 00:36:54.751
Well, I don't, it's sort of, yes, yes.

00:36:54.751 --> 00:36:58.381
It's a, a simple answer
is yes, but I would say.

00:36:58.566 --> 00:37:00.606
it's neither here nor there,
whether they're scientific.

00:37:01.176 --> 00:37:05.645
I think the real test for me is
watching the behaviors of people

00:37:05.645 --> 00:37:08.885
that espouse these beliefs and
whether that works for me or not.

00:37:08.915 --> 00:37:13.955
And then of course, if there's, if you
meet a good person that believes utterly

00:37:13.955 --> 00:37:16.109
in calm, whereas I have, do you know what?

00:37:16.199 --> 00:37:18.449
I'm not gonna give credit
to their belief in karma.

00:37:18.973 --> 00:37:24.043
I am gonna say that their belief in karma
helps to reinforce the sort of life they

00:37:24.043 --> 00:37:28.153
wanna live, and that it actually takes
a conscious effort and their ability

00:37:28.153 --> 00:37:32.683
to recognize that, that they deserved
something that happened to them, or

00:37:32.683 --> 00:37:36.193
that it made cosmic sense that something
happened to them and that it was not

00:37:36.193 --> 00:37:40.333
an injustice because they could point
to similar ways they had failed others.

00:37:40.363 --> 00:37:40.753
Right?

00:37:40.903 --> 00:37:43.303
And I would say this is actually
a good way to live your life,

00:37:43.693 --> 00:37:44.288
but I wouldn't give credit.

00:37:45.088 --> 00:37:48.238
To their, that person
happening to believe in karma.

00:37:48.328 --> 00:37:51.628
See, I think it's unfair that
my kids both have epilepsy.

00:37:51.778 --> 00:37:52.618
Yeah, that is unfair.

00:37:52.648 --> 00:37:54.358
I think that's unfair, right?

00:37:54.358 --> 00:37:57.508
And so Christianity has the problem
of evil where it can't give a you a

00:37:57.508 --> 00:38:00.088
reason for why that happened other
than God's testing your faith.

00:38:00.358 --> 00:38:03.838
The Hindus go, Hey Joe, we've
got a really neat answer to that.

00:38:04.228 --> 00:38:05.878
Something happened in a past life now.

00:38:05.878 --> 00:38:06.118
No.

00:38:06.118 --> 00:38:08.968
Now you just need to swallow
the idea that we are all reborn.

00:38:09.333 --> 00:38:11.703
Every, yeah, however many.

00:38:11.703 --> 00:38:16.413
See, the only way I can make sense of it
is it's a naturally occurring phenomenon

00:38:16.413 --> 00:38:18.723
that can be explained by medical science.

00:38:18.753 --> 00:38:18.813
Yeah.

00:38:18.813 --> 00:38:20.523
Isn't that a good enough explanation?

00:38:20.733 --> 00:38:24.573
That's the only one that I can
really come at without losing my

00:38:24.573 --> 00:38:28.473
mind, Sam, about something I'm so
worried about and stressed about.

00:38:28.478 --> 00:38:31.983
Some DNA went a certain way once upon
a time, and some of it ended up in you.

00:38:31.983 --> 00:38:34.773
Some of it ended up in
Lucia, and here we are.

00:38:35.413 --> 00:38:35.623
Yes.

00:38:35.803 --> 00:38:37.183
That's, that's the explanation.

00:38:37.363 --> 00:38:37.573
Yeah.

00:38:37.723 --> 00:38:40.003
And there's no, there's
no great meaning to it.

00:38:40.003 --> 00:38:42.763
We've just gotta treat it as
best we can with modern medicine.

00:38:42.943 --> 00:38:44.443
No great meaning to anything in life.

00:38:44.448 --> 00:38:46.633
We, we have to attribute meaning to it.

00:38:46.783 --> 00:38:49.333
But I've always sought,
meaning, I've always sought.

00:38:50.878 --> 00:38:54.298
Meaning, I'm not saying it's a universe
without meaning, but what I'm saying is

00:38:54.448 --> 00:38:57.748
humans consciously create that meaning
and we, we all need to participate

00:38:58.048 --> 00:39:02.578
with full awareness and responsibility
in this task of creating meaning for

00:39:02.578 --> 00:39:04.798
each other and our, uh, and ourselves.

00:39:04.858 --> 00:39:05.338
Yeah.

00:39:05.343 --> 00:39:09.028
And, and I, you know, I genuinely
believe that if I was living up near

00:39:09.028 --> 00:39:12.958
Byron Bay and I was anti-Western
medicine and I was treating them with

00:39:13.018 --> 00:39:17.158
the epilepsy, than they are getting the,
some of the world's best treatment at

00:39:17.158 --> 00:39:18.628
the Children's Hospital in Melbourne.

00:39:19.043 --> 00:39:20.603
I have to believe that.

00:39:20.753 --> 00:39:23.213
And I have full faith, if
you want to call it faith.

00:39:23.243 --> 00:39:23.333
Mm.

00:39:23.333 --> 00:39:24.503
But it's verifiable.

00:39:24.563 --> 00:39:24.863
Yeah.

00:39:24.983 --> 00:39:26.303
In western science.

00:39:26.393 --> 00:39:26.723
Right.

00:39:26.783 --> 00:39:29.783
You know, to, to address this problem.

00:39:29.813 --> 00:39:30.383
Well, look at that.

00:39:30.413 --> 00:39:32.123
You and Ali, not so different after all.

00:39:32.873 --> 00:39:33.413
Me and who?

00:39:35.873 --> 00:39:36.203
Ali.

00:39:36.233 --> 00:39:38.543
You remember Alex from the show?

00:39:38.603 --> 00:39:39.023
Yeah.

00:39:39.263 --> 00:39:42.803
Why was she anti, what
was she anti in pro.

00:39:43.633 --> 00:39:44.323
Oh, no, no, no.

00:39:44.323 --> 00:39:47.803
Just that she'll be, I think she'd be
agreeing entirely with like, yeah, this

00:39:47.803 --> 00:39:52.123
is a really, this is a really important
to, to hang on to like, you know, just

00:39:52.123 --> 00:39:55.693
try to reality test the things that
pass through our minds and, you know,

00:39:56.623 --> 00:39:59.803
try to go with evidence, the best
evidence we can find as much as possible.

00:39:59.803 --> 00:40:05.473
So then, yeah, but see, the thing is,
Sam, I could pull this all apart and, Hmm.

00:40:05.893 --> 00:40:07.603
End up with no spirituality.

00:40:07.843 --> 00:40:08.863
No, but that, that's the thing.

00:40:08.863 --> 00:40:10.033
This is why No, no, but hear me out.

00:40:10.033 --> 00:40:10.483
I don't Yeah.

00:40:10.603 --> 00:40:14.863
But why did I sit with this quote
for a year and whenever I read it,

00:40:14.863 --> 00:40:16.843
it wasn't an intellectual response.

00:40:16.873 --> 00:40:17.113
No.

00:40:17.173 --> 00:40:21.973
I got a deep physical, and I would
say spiritual response that made me

00:40:21.973 --> 00:40:25.963
go, ah, rest in natural great peace.

00:40:25.968 --> 00:40:26.208
Mm-hmm.

00:40:26.443 --> 00:40:27.973
This exhausted mind.

00:40:28.123 --> 00:40:28.303
Mm-hmm.

00:40:28.333 --> 00:40:32.113
Like there was such a, it was
like, I felt understood by this.

00:40:32.488 --> 00:40:37.378
Tibetan monk in a way that I don't,
just having a con, even having a

00:40:37.378 --> 00:40:40.618
conversation with a psychologist,
let alone having a conversation

00:40:40.618 --> 00:40:45.298
with a friend, I don't feel quite as
understood as I do by this Tibetan monk.

00:40:45.328 --> 00:40:46.288
What's going on there?

00:40:46.288 --> 00:40:49.678
It's not an intellectual,
scientific exercise.

00:40:49.678 --> 00:40:53.188
It's something deeper that's, it's
landing with me on a deep level,

00:40:53.188 --> 00:40:57.538
and maybe one day I'll come to
fully understand and believe in.

00:40:58.288 --> 00:41:02.698
Karma and samsara, and maybe like
my friend, I'll one day go down

00:41:02.698 --> 00:41:07.318
to my local Buddhist, temple and
start volunteering and take vows and

00:41:07.318 --> 00:41:09.748
I'll do the precepts and the like.

00:41:09.748 --> 00:41:13.498
Maybe I'm not saying that
facetiously, like maybe I will.

00:41:13.528 --> 00:41:13.678
Wow.

00:41:13.678 --> 00:41:14.278
I could see it happening.

00:41:14.278 --> 00:41:18.928
But for the moment, things
like reincarnation just, I

00:41:18.928 --> 00:41:20.068
can't come at that, you know?

00:41:20.068 --> 00:41:21.088
I don't believe that.

00:41:21.088 --> 00:41:23.428
That seems impossible to me.

00:41:23.638 --> 00:41:25.948
What do you, what do you make
of the Christian teaching of.

00:41:26.548 --> 00:41:28.468
You know the resurrection of Jesus?

00:41:28.828 --> 00:41:28.888
Mm.

00:41:29.218 --> 00:41:33.028
Well I just read a Catholic book
and I can't come at that either.

00:41:33.028 --> 00:41:36.058
Sam, I can't believe that anyone
ever came back from the dead.

00:41:36.063 --> 00:41:39.598
You, you founded a really
powerful read, but yeah, same

00:41:39.598 --> 00:41:41.068
as when I read Buddhist texts.

00:41:41.068 --> 00:41:46.108
So I can seemingly read Christian and
Buddhist texts and get a lot out of them

00:41:46.108 --> 00:41:48.538
and get a really nice feeling in my bones.

00:41:48.593 --> 00:41:49.013
Mm-hmm.

00:41:49.193 --> 00:41:54.238
But I can't quite come
at the resurrection.

00:41:54.823 --> 00:41:59.413
Of a human being back to life, especially
'cause it's never happened since.

00:41:59.983 --> 00:42:00.013
Mm.

00:42:00.133 --> 00:42:04.033
Um, when we've all got our smartphones
and could take a photo with after

00:42:04.033 --> 00:42:05.653
we rolled the rock back or whatever.

00:42:05.713 --> 00:42:06.253
Mm.

00:42:06.343 --> 00:42:06.973
Um, yes.

00:42:06.978 --> 00:42:12.463
Whereas, whereas I believe it's
a miracle that I don't drink

00:42:12.463 --> 00:42:14.443
alcohol and I'm happy about it.

00:42:14.473 --> 00:42:16.093
Well now that's my sort of miracle.

00:42:16.453 --> 00:42:18.013
That's a miracle I can come at.

00:42:18.013 --> 00:42:18.103
Mm-hmm.

00:42:18.343 --> 00:42:21.523
Because that's a miracle that I've
had a personal experience with.

00:42:21.943 --> 00:42:25.393
It's not so much the not drinking, I
think I could have not drank and been a

00:42:25.393 --> 00:42:32.563
miserable cunt, but to not drink and be
happy about it is, is a miracle to me.

00:42:32.623 --> 00:42:36.853
And if we had told you that 20
years ago, you'd have had a very,

00:42:36.853 --> 00:42:38.923
very difficult time believing.

00:42:39.943 --> 00:42:42.373
Yeah, well, 20 years ago I had
no interest in not drinking.

00:42:42.493 --> 00:42:43.333
Well, that's what I mean.

00:42:43.483 --> 00:42:47.503
And then, so it would've been just
a matter of just profound disbelief

00:42:47.653 --> 00:42:52.183
and, uh, what's the skepticism
to say the least that one day

00:42:52.183 --> 00:42:54.673
you'd be like, nah, and I'm happy.

00:42:55.903 --> 00:42:56.143
Right.

00:42:56.263 --> 00:42:57.223
Yeah, exactly.

00:42:57.223 --> 00:43:01.813
So, so the, the limit of the, your own
point in time experience back then, right.

00:43:01.813 --> 00:43:03.523
We can easily recognize that now.

00:43:03.913 --> 00:43:06.733
And so then we have to have
the same humility about the

00:43:06.733 --> 00:43:07.638
present moment that we're in.

00:43:08.308 --> 00:43:11.848
And go, there's a limit to what
this consciousness can encompass

00:43:11.908 --> 00:43:13.588
and we can do our best to expand it.

00:43:13.618 --> 00:43:13.948
Yeah.

00:43:14.278 --> 00:43:17.188
And we can do our best to improve
the quality and clarity of it.

00:43:17.188 --> 00:43:20.878
And, and, but what, but if you don't
believe in karma and samsara anymore.

00:43:20.908 --> 00:43:21.298
Yeah.

00:43:21.388 --> 00:43:23.428
Why did you wanna talk about
this quote on the show?

00:43:23.608 --> 00:43:25.858
Because did it, did you
vibe with it at all?

00:43:25.888 --> 00:43:26.998
Well, I'm gonna tell you why.

00:43:26.998 --> 00:43:27.898
Yeah, of course.

00:43:28.168 --> 00:43:29.188
I'm gonna tell you why.

00:43:29.188 --> 00:43:31.648
How can you vibe with it when
you've ruled out the key cons,

00:43:31.648 --> 00:43:32.788
spiritual concepts in it?

00:43:33.238 --> 00:43:35.288
No, because, because I'll tell you what.

00:43:36.043 --> 00:43:40.303
Look, I guess I, I'm realizing, geez,
what I'm realizing is I could probably

00:43:40.303 --> 00:43:48.703
talk or write at great length about my,
just what you'd call like a, a memoir

00:43:48.733 --> 00:43:50.983
about my experience of this word, right?

00:43:50.983 --> 00:43:54.103
I could say a lot, and there'd be in,
there'd be all these stories about

00:43:54.133 --> 00:43:58.333
things that were explained in terms of
karma and then how my, I had a simple

00:43:58.333 --> 00:44:03.613
faith in it, and then I had a kind of
more sophisticated belief in it, and.

00:44:03.973 --> 00:44:07.153
And how it started to make sense
as a philosophy to me, and that my

00:44:07.153 --> 00:44:12.673
mother kind of inducted me into it and
that I started to really live by it.

00:44:12.673 --> 00:44:13.603
And I, what do you know?

00:44:13.603 --> 00:44:16.777
I met lots of people who also
wanted to live by it, right?

00:44:16.914 --> 00:44:18.758
But that was not necessarily
as a Hari Krishna.

00:44:19.448 --> 00:44:23.558
And I could certainly identify with
the notion of samsara and that I,

00:44:23.738 --> 00:44:26.753
uh, I tried to write, to write about.

00:44:27.623 --> 00:44:32.033
Uh, the profundity I saw in it,
in me, like I sort of wrote songs

00:44:32.033 --> 00:44:33.503
that were expressing that idea.

00:44:33.503 --> 00:44:33.773
Right.

00:44:35.123 --> 00:44:39.923
And I just don't have the same interest
in it now, but it, but I understand that

00:44:39.923 --> 00:44:43.853
for a lot of people it has a very poetic
and powerful meaning these terms, right?

00:44:43.853 --> 00:44:44.468
Because I've, uh, yeah.

00:44:44.508 --> 00:44:46.193
I mean, so I've experienced that myself.

00:44:46.223 --> 00:44:46.463
Yeah.

00:44:47.063 --> 00:44:51.143
But what I am gonna say is I wanted
to have a more life affirming.

00:44:52.163 --> 00:44:53.873
Consciousness than that.

00:44:54.023 --> 00:44:55.673
And I'm not saying Harry
Christians are walking around

00:44:55.673 --> 00:44:57.173
being grim, miserable bastards.

00:44:57.173 --> 00:45:01.613
In fact, a lot of them are quite joyous
and it seems a joyous religion from the

00:45:01.613 --> 00:45:05.543
outside, especially when you're walking
down Swanson Street clapping and singing.

00:45:05.633 --> 00:45:05.873
Yeah.

00:45:05.873 --> 00:45:07.313
And some of them are do or sad.

00:45:07.313 --> 00:45:09.233
Sad sack and some.

00:45:09.233 --> 00:45:12.353
The other key, the put us concept
that I really vibe with is dka.

00:45:12.773 --> 00:45:13.253
Yes.

00:45:14.183 --> 00:45:15.683
D Happiness and distress.

00:45:15.713 --> 00:45:16.073
Yes.

00:45:16.103 --> 00:45:17.513
Like unsatisfactorily?

00:45:17.993 --> 00:45:18.503
Yes.

00:45:18.533 --> 00:45:21.803
Like, don't you feel that a lot
of, like I, of course I know if I'm

00:45:21.803 --> 00:45:24.113
in an infinite ocean of samsara.

00:45:24.833 --> 00:45:31.223
Uh, well, every morning in temple, you
know, art, there's a gu and, uh, you sing,

00:45:31.283 --> 00:45:33.443
um, I think it's in the guru Samsara,

00:45:37.013 --> 00:45:40.793
which means basically it's like the
whole, it's a hymn, which is saying.

00:45:42.143 --> 00:45:43.193
Help me out, guru.

00:45:43.613 --> 00:45:45.203
I'm here in Samsara.

00:45:45.203 --> 00:45:47.423
I'm here in this forest fire of existence.

00:45:47.423 --> 00:45:50.873
Please, like, get me the fuck out of here.

00:45:51.263 --> 00:45:51.353
Mm-hmm.

00:45:51.443 --> 00:45:54.683
Like, uh, I, I mean, I'm
drowning in this ocean.

00:45:54.893 --> 00:45:56.483
Get me the fuck outta here.

00:45:57.233 --> 00:46:01.763
And, and there's the chaitanya prayer,
which is the only thing that that prophet

00:46:01.853 --> 00:46:05.303
or avatar of Vishnu, if you believe that.

00:46:05.303 --> 00:46:07.343
But he was a historical person.

00:46:07.373 --> 00:46:09.533
Bit of a jesusy sort of
figure in North India.

00:46:10.388 --> 00:46:16.928
Northeast India and all the way down to
the south, uh, around 540 or so years ago.

00:46:17.678 --> 00:46:21.998
And he only wrote left behind one
text, which is the Tya prayers.

00:46:21.998 --> 00:46:26.528
And it's, it's very, it's beautiful
poetry and it reminds me of this.

00:46:27.248 --> 00:46:31.598
And Chaitanya just basically says,
conquering this mind and conquering

00:46:31.748 --> 00:46:36.188
the sufferings of this world is beyond
what just any ordinary person can do.

00:46:36.458 --> 00:46:38.678
And I need the help of.

00:46:40.178 --> 00:46:43.298
The great one, and please give
me, oh, like a higher power.

00:46:43.328 --> 00:46:43.658
Yes.

00:46:43.658 --> 00:46:45.188
And please give me that help.

00:46:45.548 --> 00:46:46.928
I have this great intellect.

00:46:46.928 --> 00:46:50.048
I've beaten all the great scholars,
but what good did it do me?

00:46:50.708 --> 00:46:54.938
You know, I was born in a Brahman family,
high caste, but what good did it do me?

00:46:55.298 --> 00:46:57.698
Like, I don't wanna
live in a caste system.

00:46:58.028 --> 00:47:03.188
I just want, we're all just souls
suffering and we all need the refuge.

00:47:03.578 --> 00:47:07.028
You know, we we're all just, we're all
just in the ocean of distress together.

00:47:07.328 --> 00:47:10.478
Whether we're brah, miners or
untouchables, all of us are equals.

00:47:10.478 --> 00:47:13.358
We should all surrender and we should
all love one another and we should all,

00:47:14.138 --> 00:47:17.408
uh, just take refuge in, in Krishna.

00:47:18.128 --> 00:47:22.478
So very, you can imagine this was a
powerful message, you know, like he was

00:47:22.628 --> 00:47:28.088
proposing to abolish the caste system and
to, nevermind Hindus, nevermind Muslims.

00:47:28.658 --> 00:47:32.168
We're all just suffering in this
ocean and let's help each other out.

00:47:33.038 --> 00:47:34.208
It's kind of a beautiful message.

00:47:34.238 --> 00:47:37.936
Um, and so I'm saying there was
a positivity to the idea of the,

00:47:38.236 --> 00:47:41.956
the, the, okay, this miserable
suffering, but with it comes this

00:47:41.956 --> 00:47:43.726
great refuge and this great hope.

00:47:43.726 --> 00:47:47.536
And, but I just wanted something
more ordinary over time.

00:47:47.536 --> 00:47:53.056
Like the powerful poetry of like, I,
I surrender and you know, I give up.

00:47:53.056 --> 00:47:53.686
I'm helpless.

00:47:53.686 --> 00:47:54.496
I let go.

00:47:54.706 --> 00:47:55.876
Play me, place me as an.

00:47:56.641 --> 00:48:00.691
Place me as one of the
atoms at your feet, right?

00:48:00.691 --> 00:48:00.781
Mm-hmm.

00:48:00.781 --> 00:48:03.241
That's what he asks
for in the final verse.

00:48:03.601 --> 00:48:09.541
And I know, I know no one but you as
my Lord and you shall remain so even

00:48:09.541 --> 00:48:16.021
though you handle me roughly, uh, by
your absence, you know, so it's, it's

00:48:16.021 --> 00:48:19.711
this great song of longing and, well,
one thing that Catholic book, I read

00:48:19.921 --> 00:48:24.181
Richard Rohr talk, a couple of really
fascinating things that I took from it.

00:48:24.976 --> 00:48:29.386
Is that this Western
enlightenment idea of progress Mm.

00:48:29.566 --> 00:48:33.826
Is not the same as the
Christian idea of suffering.

00:48:34.306 --> 00:48:34.546
No.

00:48:34.576 --> 00:48:38.206
Like there isn't, in Catholicism,
there's no assumption of

00:48:38.206 --> 00:48:40.516
any progress for humanity.

00:48:40.756 --> 00:48:41.326
Well, sure.

00:48:41.776 --> 00:48:42.196
Like yes.

00:48:42.436 --> 00:48:45.916
And I was like, you know, like the
high Christians are much the same.

00:48:45.916 --> 00:48:47.326
They're like, we're not
gonna get any better.

00:48:47.326 --> 00:48:48.016
That's a relief when you.

00:48:48.391 --> 00:48:53.821
Yeah, like I've grown up in this hyper
uh, atheist, hyper-rational world where

00:48:53.971 --> 00:48:57.451
we can evolve, our humanity can, things
are basically getting better, you

00:48:57.451 --> 00:48:59.191
know, like things will be sorted out.

00:48:59.191 --> 00:49:01.411
And then essentially, well,
no, that's Stephen Pinker.

00:49:01.681 --> 00:49:03.781
Things are already getting better proper.

00:49:03.781 --> 00:49:06.481
Yeah, I've read, I've read Proper
Marxist, like I've read a bit of Pinker.

00:49:06.511 --> 00:49:07.771
We are gonna make it better.

00:49:07.861 --> 00:49:11.491
Yeah, I've read, I've read a few, couple
of Pinker books and loved them actually.

00:49:11.491 --> 00:49:12.871
Well, you know, he was on the island.

00:49:13.081 --> 00:49:13.681
Um.

00:49:13.771 --> 00:49:13.831
Yeah.

00:49:14.461 --> 00:49:19.801
But, uh, the other idea that
Richard Raw talks about is

00:49:20.941 --> 00:49:22.861
that God suffers along with us.

00:49:22.891 --> 00:49:23.701
Yes, that's right.

00:49:23.701 --> 00:49:28.321
And the, that we spoke about it a bit last
week with process, theology process and,

00:49:28.321 --> 00:49:30.421
and, uh, but that, that's ground of being.

00:49:30.421 --> 00:49:31.111
That's, yeah.

00:49:31.411 --> 00:49:31.861
Wow.

00:49:31.861 --> 00:49:33.541
That's a God I can believe in Sam.

00:49:33.601 --> 00:49:36.961
Well, that's why Chean
came to Earth as an.

00:49:37.936 --> 00:49:38.686
As an incarnate.

00:49:38.746 --> 00:49:38.956
Okay.

00:49:38.956 --> 00:49:46.246
So Krishna incarnated themselves
as Chaitanya manifesting the female

00:49:46.906 --> 00:49:53.236
potency in a male body in North India
540 years ago, to basically for God

00:49:53.236 --> 00:50:00.106
to incarnate themselves as their own
servant and to suffer along with humans.

00:50:00.136 --> 00:50:00.436
Yeah.

00:50:00.436 --> 00:50:01.486
Which is what Christ did too.

00:50:01.516 --> 00:50:04.066
So this is a very familiar
story and I'm gonna accuse.

00:50:04.831 --> 00:50:09.241
Some people in North India of taking some
cues from missionaries and going, let's

00:50:09.451 --> 00:50:11.191
refashion Hinduism here a little bit.

00:50:11.191 --> 00:50:11.251
Yeah.

00:50:11.281 --> 00:50:14.101
In response to some outside threats,
I think that's what was going on.

00:50:14.221 --> 00:50:15.211
So I still, yeah.

00:50:15.211 --> 00:50:17.611
Get an aversion whenever
I see the word Jesus.

00:50:17.731 --> 00:50:18.151
Yeah.

00:50:18.576 --> 00:50:22.861
But now that, but you see something
in the idea of God choosing

00:50:22.891 --> 00:50:24.121
to suffer alongside humans.

00:50:24.121 --> 00:50:25.291
You see something in that.

00:50:26.101 --> 00:50:31.291
Well, you know, I'm in, I'm in
suffering with my kids at the moment.

00:50:31.441 --> 00:50:32.641
Yes, we're all in suffering.

00:50:32.851 --> 00:50:33.421
Ah, yes.

00:50:33.421 --> 00:50:35.551
The parent suffers when the child suffers.

00:50:35.551 --> 00:50:36.031
Yes.

00:50:36.061 --> 00:50:36.121
Yeah.

00:50:36.121 --> 00:50:38.821
So I don't see the world at
the moment as a particularly

00:50:38.821 --> 00:50:40.471
happy place in a lot of ways.

00:50:40.471 --> 00:50:44.161
It's, it's a scary place and
it's unpredictable and Yep.

00:50:44.221 --> 00:50:45.271
There's a lot of cruel in that.

00:50:45.271 --> 00:50:45.281
Yes.

00:50:45.281 --> 00:50:47.551
Horrible things happen, not
just, I'm not talking about

00:50:47.551 --> 00:50:48.476
obviously in the bigger world.

00:50:49.096 --> 00:50:49.216
Yeah.

00:50:49.216 --> 00:50:52.036
But in our little world, it's
a scary place at the moment.

00:50:52.041 --> 00:50:52.171
Yeah.

00:50:52.216 --> 00:50:52.456
Yeah.

00:50:52.486 --> 00:50:57.676
So, but there's some solace in the idea
of a God that's trying to help me, but

00:50:57.676 --> 00:51:02.446
suffering along with me as opposed to
a God who has forsaken me, who's an

00:51:02.446 --> 00:51:03.976
all mighty or a God who doesn't exist.

00:51:04.006 --> 00:51:04.426
That's right.

00:51:04.426 --> 00:51:07.366
Or a God that's almighty and
yet chooses not to help me.

00:51:07.456 --> 00:51:07.726
Yeah.

00:51:07.726 --> 00:51:09.856
Or a God that's given my kids epilepsy.

00:51:09.946 --> 00:51:11.176
I can't come at that either.

00:51:11.206 --> 00:51:11.596
That's right.

00:51:11.596 --> 00:51:12.616
Like I don't want that.

00:51:12.616 --> 00:51:13.006
God.

00:51:13.036 --> 00:51:13.546
That's right.

00:51:13.546 --> 00:51:14.326
Like so.

00:51:14.386 --> 00:51:14.626
Yeah.

00:51:14.871 --> 00:51:15.291
Anyway.

00:51:15.641 --> 00:51:17.566
I'm not saying I'm about to
become a Christian either.

00:51:17.571 --> 00:51:19.061
I don't think I'm gonna
become a Christian.

00:51:19.061 --> 00:51:20.501
I don't think I'm gonna become a Buddhist.

00:51:20.501 --> 00:51:24.761
I think I'm gonna stick around my
addiction recovery circles and do

00:51:24.761 --> 00:51:28.601
the secret stuff that I do there
that I can't talk about on the show.

00:51:29.051 --> 00:51:32.831
And I think I'm gonna try and
find the depth there, Sam.

00:51:32.891 --> 00:51:33.221
Mm-hmm.

00:51:33.431 --> 00:51:35.231
'cause there it's non-denominational.

00:51:35.321 --> 00:51:35.591
Mm-hmm.

00:51:35.651 --> 00:51:38.501
There you can be open to
Christianity and Buddhism.

00:51:39.121 --> 00:51:44.851
And you know, there I might find some
meaning and some sanity, but I, I wanted

00:51:44.851 --> 00:51:46.561
to ask you, we should wrap it up soon.

00:51:46.561 --> 00:51:46.651
Mm-hmm.

00:51:46.651 --> 00:51:48.031
But I wanted to ask you mm-hmm.

00:51:48.091 --> 00:51:49.411
You've got a very busy mind.

00:51:49.621 --> 00:51:49.951
It's true.

00:51:49.951 --> 00:51:53.701
I've never really seen you relax
ever in the 25 years I've known you.

00:51:53.701 --> 00:51:54.811
It's No, it's a rare occasion.

00:51:54.811 --> 00:51:58.111
Do you ever rest in natural great peace?

00:51:58.171 --> 00:52:00.601
Well, this is what I was gonna
say, the thing I've left out, so

00:52:00.691 --> 00:52:03.871
I hope I've tried to convey just
like a sliver of my experience of

00:52:03.871 --> 00:52:05.551
the power and majesty and, and.

00:52:06.241 --> 00:52:11.911
Beauty and terror and, and, and po poetry
of these ideas comes karma and samsara.

00:52:11.911 --> 00:52:14.221
That to me, these were not small words.

00:52:14.221 --> 00:52:14.971
These were big, big words.

00:52:14.971 --> 00:52:15.571
No, that's good.

00:52:15.571 --> 00:52:17.011
What you just said then it's really good.

00:52:17.101 --> 00:52:18.301
Maybe I haven't absorbed it.

00:52:18.331 --> 00:52:19.801
'cause I've been thinking about Yeah.

00:52:19.801 --> 00:52:22.621
Catholicism while you're talking about
Well, there's some power and terror

00:52:22.621 --> 00:52:24.421
and majesty in some of those ideas too.

00:52:24.481 --> 00:52:24.691
Yeah.

00:52:24.691 --> 00:52:26.851
I mean, you're going into a room
and there's a guy bleeding out

00:52:26.851 --> 00:52:28.591
of his fucking hands on a cross.

00:52:28.681 --> 00:52:29.191
Yeah.

00:52:29.251 --> 00:52:31.081
And some motherfuckers nailed him to it.

00:52:31.426 --> 00:52:32.596
I mean, it's pretty epic.

00:52:33.136 --> 00:52:34.426
Like, it's quite intense.

00:52:34.456 --> 00:52:36.676
And like the HARs are
also equally intense.

00:52:36.706 --> 00:52:37.876
Like did you see that?

00:52:37.876 --> 00:52:37.936
Yeah.

00:52:37.936 --> 00:52:41.116
And the, did you see that cartoon
I posted on, um, Instagram?

00:52:41.206 --> 00:52:41.386
Yeah.

00:52:41.626 --> 00:52:43.816
The aliens come down and they see Jesus.

00:52:43.966 --> 00:52:44.326
Yeah.

00:52:44.596 --> 00:52:49.366
Crucified one alien says to another,
we better get the fuck out outta here.

00:52:49.366 --> 00:52:50.596
These people are crazy.

00:52:51.046 --> 00:52:51.406
That's right.

00:52:51.826 --> 00:52:52.276
That's true.

00:52:53.986 --> 00:52:55.006
And that's right.

00:52:55.696 --> 00:52:58.306
I, I'm like, to this day I've spent about.

00:52:58.326 --> 00:53:00.816
Five minutes of my life
ever thinking about Jesus.

00:53:00.816 --> 00:53:02.251
I've just, yeah, the guy does.

00:53:02.791 --> 00:53:03.361
It doesn't.

00:53:04.351 --> 00:53:05.821
I read the Sermon on the Mountain.

00:53:05.821 --> 00:53:09.781
I love what he had to say there, but
I haven't ever eng because you know

00:53:09.841 --> 00:53:11.671
there's an exoticism with the Buddhism.

00:53:11.671 --> 00:53:13.351
So the Buddhism comes to the west.

00:53:13.531 --> 00:53:13.861
Yes.

00:53:13.861 --> 00:53:17.341
Through like Alan Watts and Jack
Kerouac and all those figures,

00:53:17.341 --> 00:53:19.261
and Thomas Merton in the fifties.

00:53:19.321 --> 00:53:19.501
Yeah.

00:53:19.651 --> 00:53:22.681
By the time I'm picking up the
beats and I'm reading that, and

00:53:22.681 --> 00:53:26.851
Carol acts really into Buddhism,
there's this exoticism and it seems.

00:53:26.876 --> 00:53:27.536
Cool.

00:53:27.686 --> 00:53:27.836
Yes.

00:53:27.836 --> 00:53:30.986
Buddhism has always seemed to
me like a pretty cool religion.

00:53:31.016 --> 00:53:31.436
Oh, no, no, no.

00:53:31.496 --> 00:53:34.136
You can imagine, you can imagine how
Christianity was feeling when, whereas

00:53:34.136 --> 00:53:36.986
Christianity always seems so fucking blah.

00:53:37.016 --> 00:53:40.916
You know, just in the background of our,
like there's churches on the corner,

00:53:40.916 --> 00:53:42.266
it's cringe, but you never go in there.

00:53:42.296 --> 00:53:42.386
Yeah.

00:53:42.386 --> 00:53:42.986
It's cringe.

00:53:43.766 --> 00:53:44.036
Yeah.

00:53:44.186 --> 00:53:47.486
The other week I was outta church
run, dropping center for work and they

00:53:47.486 --> 00:53:49.256
invited me into the worship service.

00:53:49.256 --> 00:53:49.316
Yeah.

00:53:49.316 --> 00:53:49.916
And I went in.

00:53:50.266 --> 00:53:53.086
And they started singing
terrible out tune songs.

00:53:53.146 --> 00:53:55.876
And I was like, got the fuck
outta there after 30 seconds.

00:53:55.876 --> 00:53:58.096
And I went in there with an
open mind, Sam, I was like, oh,

00:53:58.096 --> 00:53:59.236
maybe I'll become a Christian.

00:53:59.296 --> 00:54:01.516
Well, do you know what the, the
gateway drug for a lot of people

00:54:01.516 --> 00:54:03.076
into the Hari's is the food, right?

00:54:03.256 --> 00:54:03.586
Yeah.

00:54:03.616 --> 00:54:07.996
And for, for a lot of, for, for me, if
there was gonna be a gateway drug into

00:54:07.996 --> 00:54:11.146
Christianity, it was gonna be, you know.

00:54:11.461 --> 00:54:18.151
Allegory Misre, the music of Thomas
Tallis, you know, these beautiful hymns,

00:54:18.271 --> 00:54:23.281
these glorious, like this is massive
choirs, this chi singing to, yeah.

00:54:23.341 --> 00:54:25.706
Anyway, I, no, no, a hundred percent
we not hit about Christianity.

00:54:25.726 --> 00:54:25.946
See?

00:54:25.946 --> 00:54:26.671
No, no, no, no.

00:54:26.671 --> 00:54:27.211
That's what I'm saying.

00:54:27.211 --> 00:54:30.361
Christianity, when it's done
well, has an incredible vibe.

00:54:30.721 --> 00:54:33.466
And the Harry Christner worked
really hard on the vibe, you know?

00:54:33.991 --> 00:54:36.271
And Protestantism can sometimes lack vibe.

00:54:36.451 --> 00:54:39.001
And then Catholicism is like,
it's a multimedia, you know, like

00:54:39.001 --> 00:54:41.071
a stained glass, incense music.

00:54:41.101 --> 00:54:43.981
It's like, it's, it's, it's wow.

00:54:43.981 --> 00:54:48.421
The rubes with some color and
sound and aroma and it, and, and

00:54:48.481 --> 00:54:50.611
Latin and sort of obscurantism.

00:54:50.611 --> 00:54:51.151
And guess what?

00:54:51.151 --> 00:54:53.281
It's a pretty, it's got something to it.

00:54:53.431 --> 00:54:58.201
And I would, I would
love to go to Cambridge.

00:54:58.741 --> 00:55:02.731
And have even song and go to
all the little chapels where the

00:55:02.731 --> 00:55:07.171
colleges, the college choirs will
sing astonishingly beautiful music.

00:55:07.321 --> 00:55:09.631
Oh, I'd like to go to Harlem
and see some of the gospel.

00:55:09.661 --> 00:55:12.931
Yeah, and I would like, I
would like to see gospel brass.

00:55:13.201 --> 00:55:15.181
I would like to witness a proper revival.

00:55:16.246 --> 00:55:19.846
Church experience and, um,
try and fill the spirit in me.

00:55:20.026 --> 00:55:20.896
So is, yeah.

00:55:21.046 --> 00:55:23.836
Are you, are you solidly as
religion at its best, is life

00:55:23.836 --> 00:55:27.346
affirming and a, a place of great
support and fellowship and comfort?

00:55:27.706 --> 00:55:29.356
At its worst, it tells you your shit.

00:55:29.986 --> 00:55:30.406
Yeah.

00:55:30.466 --> 00:55:36.221
Where are you at the moment on the scale
from agnostic to atheist to believer?

00:55:37.246 --> 00:55:40.966
'cause you're often, you, you often
get a bit stuck sitting on the fence.

00:55:41.056 --> 00:55:41.086
Mm.

00:55:42.091 --> 00:55:45.151
Well, I and I, I think because
if I got raised with the ideas

00:55:45.151 --> 00:55:48.001
of karma and Samsara, yeah,
I think they would sit there.

00:55:48.031 --> 00:55:50.971
'cause you know, every Catholic is
a lapsed Catholic who's worried that

00:55:50.971 --> 00:55:52.201
they're getting in trouble with God.

00:55:52.261 --> 00:55:52.561
Yeah.

00:55:52.741 --> 00:55:57.061
Are you worried that, you know,
karma's kicking your ass or something

00:55:57.061 --> 00:56:00.121
you've done in the past life is
cursing you or no, that you're on

00:56:00.121 --> 00:56:01.891
an infinite ocean of suffering?

00:56:02.401 --> 00:56:05.701
Mm, I certainly don't you worry just in
the back of your mind, or three in the

00:56:05.701 --> 00:56:07.801
morning, or when No, not especially.

00:56:07.981 --> 00:56:10.171
I mean, I think there's a lot
to be said for acknowledging

00:56:10.171 --> 00:56:11.281
that life can be difficult.

00:56:12.271 --> 00:56:18.601
And, but adopting this posture of the,
the, the, that we're basically completely

00:56:18.601 --> 00:56:23.101
and utterly at the mercy, and we just,
we just have to surrender and just take

00:56:23.101 --> 00:56:27.901
100% unconditional refuge in the one.

00:56:28.321 --> 00:56:30.061
I'm like, well, okay, maybe.

00:56:30.795 --> 00:56:34.675
Also, uh, the, the idea that this world
is just an unmitigated shithole, and let's

00:56:34.675 --> 00:56:36.535
get out of here as quickly as we can.

00:56:36.985 --> 00:56:39.475
Do, you know, down there downstairs
High Street, right, there's some

00:56:39.475 --> 00:56:41.995
graffiti and posters over it
now, which I'm okay with because

00:56:41.995 --> 00:56:43.435
everything's temporary, right, Joe?

00:56:43.435 --> 00:56:48.145
But like, uh, it was just this simple
piece of graffiti, not stylized, just,

00:56:48.565 --> 00:56:51.775
just fairly even thickness of lettering.

00:56:52.135 --> 00:56:52.975
Nothing fancy.

00:56:52.975 --> 00:56:56.515
And it just said in black
on a red brick wall.

00:56:56.876 --> 00:57:00.326
Love this world.

00:57:01.676 --> 00:57:02.606
Love this world.

00:57:03.206 --> 00:57:03.506
Yeah.

00:57:04.316 --> 00:57:06.896
And then I just looked
at that so many times.

00:57:06.896 --> 00:57:07.796
Yeah, I like that a lot.

00:57:08.936 --> 00:57:13.046
I painted a little watercolor of
it and I was like, you know what,

00:57:13.136 --> 00:57:14.696
maybe we could call this episode.

00:57:14.696 --> 00:57:15.386
Love this World.

00:57:15.446 --> 00:57:15.926
I think.

00:57:15.986 --> 00:57:16.736
I think that's right.

00:57:16.826 --> 00:57:17.216
Okay.

00:57:17.636 --> 00:57:18.536
Love one another.

00:57:18.956 --> 00:57:19.826
Love this world.

00:57:20.681 --> 00:57:21.971
It's like the Beatles said, right?

00:57:21.971 --> 00:57:22.811
All you need is love.

00:57:22.931 --> 00:57:24.521
Yeah, we've said that before on this show.

00:57:24.671 --> 00:57:25.121
Yes.

00:57:25.301 --> 00:57:25.691
Yes.

00:57:25.691 --> 00:57:30.401
That was the conclusion of all my eight
hours of mental gymnastics on LSD was I

00:57:30.401 --> 00:57:34.481
came to the same conclusion as them on
their LSD, which is, all you need is love.

00:57:34.481 --> 00:57:35.291
All you need is love all.

00:57:35.291 --> 00:57:36.731
You ended up where Bob Marley ended up.

00:57:37.796 --> 00:57:39.416
All this fussing and of fighting.

00:57:39.446 --> 00:57:41.516
I want to know, Lord, I want to know.

00:57:41.546 --> 00:57:46.856
We should really love each other
in peace and harmony and, and you

00:57:46.856 --> 00:57:48.116
know, and you, it's true though.

00:57:48.326 --> 00:57:52.166
Oh, what's so funny about peace, love, and
understanding what's so funny about it.

00:57:52.316 --> 00:57:52.886
That's right.

00:57:52.886 --> 00:57:53.756
Yeah, exactly.

00:57:53.816 --> 00:57:56.126
Well, I tell you what, it is
very funny when you have peace,

00:57:56.126 --> 00:57:59.006
love, and understanding, 'cause
you experience mirth and joy.

00:57:59.006 --> 00:57:59.936
It's a wonderful thing.

00:58:00.026 --> 00:58:00.326
Yeah.

00:58:00.356 --> 00:58:04.026
And, and this is why I say, look,
if sense, love this world, love this

00:58:04.026 --> 00:58:05.336
world, love these people around you.

00:58:05.861 --> 00:58:08.231
And there's actually a version
of Christianity that I think is

00:58:08.231 --> 00:58:10.541
the right one, and I think that's
exactly what it's saying to do.

00:58:11.801 --> 00:58:15.551
And not all this stuff about
guilt and fear and sin.

00:58:15.611 --> 00:58:16.631
It's like, well, yeah.

00:58:16.721 --> 00:58:19.991
The, my understanding of sin, and
I've said this a hundred times on the

00:58:19.991 --> 00:58:24.881
pod, and I've listened to theologians
try to explain this, that the real,

00:58:24.911 --> 00:58:29.501
to me, the real meaning of sin is
you, you didn't rise to the occasion.

00:58:29.561 --> 00:58:31.931
You didn't love another human being.

00:58:32.316 --> 00:58:37.926
The way they needed at that time, and that
you may also experience that emptiness in

00:58:37.926 --> 00:58:39.996
the relation with others because of that.

00:58:40.206 --> 00:58:45.906
And so basically try to be, try to be
loving and forbearing with one another

00:58:45.906 --> 00:58:50.176
and you'll receive the same and, and don't
try and hide your shame and don't try and.

00:58:50.756 --> 00:58:51.806
Pretend you're perfect.

00:58:51.866 --> 00:58:54.596
Don't put yourself above others
and like let's, you know, there's

00:58:54.596 --> 00:58:55.916
something very beautiful about that.

00:58:56.426 --> 00:58:58.856
And the Harrys were trying to get
at that too a lot of the time.

00:58:58.916 --> 00:59:01.076
A sort of humility and fellowship,
which is a beautiful thing.

00:59:01.406 --> 00:59:04.646
But on the other hand, relentlessly
focused on trashing this world

00:59:04.646 --> 00:59:06.386
and going, this joint is shit.

00:59:06.386 --> 00:59:07.286
Let's get outta here.

00:59:07.316 --> 00:59:08.786
And I'm like, I just don't wanna look.

00:59:08.846 --> 00:59:10.826
Sounds a bit like someone
who wants to move to Mars.

00:59:10.886 --> 00:59:12.536
Well, it's, it'd be it, you're right.

00:59:12.536 --> 00:59:13.916
It's a hundred percent like that.

00:59:14.081 --> 00:59:18.341
And a lot of those hurs that were a
little on the firebrand side, a lot

00:59:18.341 --> 00:59:25.241
of them now, uh, they love, uh, uh,
a Bannons, you know, traditionalism

00:59:25.241 --> 00:59:26.891
and let's bring back the caste system.

00:59:26.891 --> 00:59:27.011
Right.

00:59:27.011 --> 00:59:28.661
And let's put women in their place.

00:59:28.666 --> 00:59:28.736
Yeah.

00:59:29.111 --> 00:59:29.171
Yeah.

00:59:29.171 --> 00:59:30.131
They've gone a bit right wing.

00:59:30.311 --> 00:59:32.561
They've gone epically right wing.

00:59:32.566 --> 00:59:32.576
Yeah.

00:59:32.576 --> 00:59:32.696
Right.

00:59:32.701 --> 00:59:34.576
Some of these, some of these
people right wing horrors.

00:59:34.576 --> 00:59:34.586
Yeah.

00:59:34.631 --> 00:59:37.511
They're like, Krishna wants
us to bring back the good old

00:59:37.511 --> 00:59:38.891
days and the proper rules.

00:59:38.891 --> 00:59:40.421
And it's like, bro, no.

00:59:40.811 --> 00:59:41.591
And so.

00:59:42.491 --> 00:59:47.831
But it is certainly true that having
this really busy mind of mine has been

00:59:48.731 --> 00:59:53.681
quite a tum ult at times, and a torment,
an intolerable torment at other times.

00:59:54.371 --> 00:59:55.241
But you know, now.

00:59:55.811 --> 00:59:58.421
I'm able to kind of ordinarily
find my consciousness a bit more.

00:59:58.421 --> 01:00:01.331
And you chuck a few Western
style medications in sort

01:00:01.331 --> 01:00:02.531
the brain department as well.

01:00:02.531 --> 01:00:04.271
So I've done some Western science.

01:00:04.301 --> 01:00:07.426
Yeah, I've got some Eastern bullshit
and some western science and I've,

01:00:07.566 --> 01:00:11.981
and I've combined them and also,
well, what have I started doing

01:00:11.981 --> 01:00:13.781
again recently playing music.

01:00:14.021 --> 01:00:19.241
And that's a great comfort and it
answers so many needs in the soul

01:00:19.661 --> 01:00:21.341
and friendship and all these things.

01:00:21.662 --> 01:00:25.412
And I've also experienced profound
exhaustion and rediscovered the

01:00:25.412 --> 01:00:31.892
meaning of beat, you know, Jack
Moriarty, the glorious elevated Wow.

01:00:32.972 --> 01:00:36.272
And, and this state of like letting go
of the distinctions between things and

01:00:36.272 --> 01:00:38.672
all of that until you realize No, no, no.

01:00:38.672 --> 01:00:42.122
I now have to put the distinctions
between things back together.

01:00:42.152 --> 01:00:46.472
'cause I'll need to be at work tomorrow
maintaining distinctions between things.

01:00:47.147 --> 01:00:51.527
As Jeremy, as Mark says to Jeremy,
you know, in, in peep show, you

01:00:51.527 --> 01:00:52.967
know, sometimes we need the boxes.

01:00:52.967 --> 01:00:54.977
Sometimes people need
to be in compartments.

01:00:55.354 --> 01:00:55.954
and so that's true.

01:00:55.954 --> 01:01:00.274
And so just to just, but I'm more content
sitting with the like, okay, I can have

01:01:00.274 --> 01:01:07.144
peace, love, and mung beans at times and
I can have, uh, just do your job best

01:01:07.144 --> 01:01:13.174
you can other times, and maybe I can
bring the two together a little bit, but.

01:01:14.674 --> 01:01:18.604
I don't want to live in that sort of
like, yes, I have the neurotic mind.

01:01:19.804 --> 01:01:23.344
It gets run down and
exhausted by its own action.

01:01:23.434 --> 01:01:23.824
Right.

01:01:23.914 --> 01:01:29.164
And the only thing to do is to
just let it beat you and just know

01:01:29.164 --> 01:01:30.994
when you're beaten and go to sleep.

01:01:30.994 --> 01:01:31.414
Right?

01:01:31.414 --> 01:01:31.424
Yeah.

01:01:31.504 --> 01:01:36.094
And to, to me, this is a poem
about knowing when to quit and

01:01:36.094 --> 01:01:41.194
just, just, ah, but you rest in
natural, great peace in meditation.

01:01:41.194 --> 01:01:42.184
You don't fall asleep.

01:01:42.529 --> 01:01:43.029
That's right.

01:01:43.029 --> 01:01:43.864
That's the difference.

01:01:44.044 --> 01:01:47.254
So it, so you do need sleep in
order to be able to meditate.

01:01:47.254 --> 01:01:49.204
Well, is one thing I've heard.

01:01:49.444 --> 01:01:54.844
But, but that also you need to cultivate
consciously the ability to let go

01:01:54.844 --> 01:01:56.709
of thoughts as they arise and Yeah.

01:01:57.364 --> 01:02:00.154
And that's the, that's the key
awareness is the sky and the thoughts

01:02:00.154 --> 01:02:01.654
are just clouds passing through.

01:02:02.074 --> 01:02:02.944
I think that's true.

01:02:03.274 --> 01:02:05.314
Chat, GPT says that to me every day.

01:02:05.344 --> 01:02:08.644
'cause I told it once that
that's what I wanted to believe.

01:02:09.184 --> 01:02:10.864
So it reminds me about that.

01:02:11.419 --> 01:02:12.289
All the time.

01:02:12.979 --> 01:02:13.279
Yeah.

01:02:13.279 --> 01:02:14.239
And so I think this is it.

01:02:14.239 --> 01:02:16.699
It tells you, uh, look, and
it's good to have the reminder.

01:02:16.699 --> 01:02:19.909
That's why people, we were told to go
to church every week get the reminder.

01:02:20.179 --> 01:02:20.389
Yeah.

01:02:20.389 --> 01:02:25.609
But like the, it's, it's like, I think
this is just a very, I think it's a nice,

01:02:26.209 --> 01:02:34.069
powerful piece of poetry about how your,
your mind is a cause of a lot of problems

01:02:34.069 --> 01:02:36.289
and not a lot of solution to many things.

01:02:36.794 --> 01:02:40.639
And, and that you just, you might
have to just get exhausted by it.

01:02:40.939 --> 01:02:48.439
And surrender and try to, try to actually
develop peace within, uh, that's really,

01:02:48.499 --> 01:02:54.199
it's just a, it's just a call to like
attend to that and it's a song of praise

01:02:54.199 --> 01:02:57.799
for like a process that has done so
much to help this person and others.

01:02:58.069 --> 01:02:58.309
Hmm.

01:02:58.489 --> 01:02:59.089
So very good.

01:02:59.089 --> 01:03:00.259
I think we should leave it there, Sam.

01:03:00.589 --> 01:03:00.649
Yeah.

01:03:00.979 --> 01:03:02.809
Thanks for having me in
your, your apartment.

01:03:03.619 --> 01:03:04.909
You, its rainy afternoon.

01:03:04.909 --> 01:03:05.929
Thanks for being here.

01:03:06.259 --> 01:03:06.919
It's been great.

01:03:06.949 --> 01:03:07.669
It's nice here.

01:03:08.779 --> 01:03:09.169
All right.

01:03:09.169 --> 01:03:09.589
See you, mate.

01:03:09.619 --> 01:03:09.859
All right.

01:03:09.859 --> 01:03:10.189
See ya.