WEBVTT 00:00:01.320 --> 00:00:05.520 Matt Abrahams: The biggest fight my wife and I have ever had was over toothpaste. 00:00:06.840 --> 00:00:09.780 Picture this, my wife and I are newly married and excited 00:00:09.780 --> 00:00:11.070 to start our life together. 00:00:11.400 --> 00:00:14.220 We spent a lot of time discussing and coming to agreement on the 00:00:14.220 --> 00:00:17.850 big things, having children in the future, our political ideas, 00:00:17.850 --> 00:00:19.260 where to spend the holidays. 00:00:19.710 --> 00:00:23.995 So imagine my surprise when I was summoned to the bathroom where my wife was angrily 00:00:23.995 --> 00:00:26.005 holding our shared tube of toothpaste. 00:00:26.605 --> 00:00:30.865 Her gaze immediately told me that this was serious and I was in trouble. 00:00:31.465 --> 00:00:37.135 You see, my wife's a roller and I'm a squeezer, and nothing is more irritating 00:00:37.135 --> 00:00:41.785 to a fastidious roller than a smashed up randomly squeezed tube of toothpaste. 00:00:42.955 --> 00:00:46.195 Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:00:46.555 --> 00:00:49.675 I'm Matt Abrahams, and I teach strategic communication at Stanford 00:00:49.675 --> 00:00:50.935 Graduate School of Business. 00:00:51.269 --> 00:00:52.440 Today is a special day. 00:00:52.740 --> 00:00:55.260 It's our 250th episode. 00:00:55.890 --> 00:00:59.460 We've put together a very special episode just for you, and it's 00:00:59.460 --> 00:01:00.690 going to sound a little different. 00:01:01.140 --> 00:01:04.680 You'll hear a few more voices, a little more storytelling than usual, 00:01:05.069 --> 00:01:07.110 plus some music and sound design too. 00:01:07.980 --> 00:01:11.490 We're celebrating by digging into the Think Fast Talk Smart archives. 00:01:11.910 --> 00:01:15.570 We've compiled some of the best expert advice on one of the hardest 00:01:15.570 --> 00:01:18.180 things we face in life: conflict. 00:01:18.945 --> 00:01:23.445 We face it at work, at home, and sometimes even with friends and complete strangers. 00:01:24.104 --> 00:01:27.645 It seems like the closer we get to someone, the more conflict we face. 00:01:28.214 --> 00:01:30.585 But here's the really interesting thing about conflict. 00:01:31.005 --> 00:01:32.235 Conflict isn't bad. 00:01:32.625 --> 00:01:34.395 In fact, we need it. 00:01:35.565 --> 00:01:39.645 Amy Gallo: While our natural human instinct is to avoid conflict because 00:01:39.645 --> 00:01:43.695 of course we are hardwired for likability and we see conflict as a 00:01:43.905 --> 00:01:46.125 potential rupture in our relationship. 00:01:46.455 --> 00:01:50.355 Conflicts are not only inevitable part of interacting with other 00:01:50.355 --> 00:01:52.575 humans, but they're a necessary part. 00:01:53.175 --> 00:01:54.195 Matt Abrahams: That was Amy Gallo. 00:01:54.615 --> 00:01:59.055 She's the author of Getting Along: How to Work with Anyone, Even Difficult People. 00:01:59.729 --> 00:02:02.550 She also wrote the Harvard Business Reviews Guide to Dealing With 00:02:02.550 --> 00:02:06.899 Conflict and has been the co-host of HBR's Women at Work Podcast. 00:02:07.740 --> 00:02:11.070 Amy Gallo: There's lots of research that shows that conflict leads to better work 00:02:11.070 --> 00:02:15.209 outcomes, stronger relationships, and of course, that depends on navigating the 00:02:15.209 --> 00:02:21.299 conflict in a professional, productive, relational way with compassion and caring. 00:02:21.690 --> 00:02:27.615 But when done well, conflict has a whole host of good outcomes, and I think we 00:02:27.615 --> 00:02:31.725 actually should be spending more time, not trying to eliminate conflict, but trying 00:02:31.725 --> 00:02:34.125 to create the right kinds of conflict. 00:02:34.995 --> 00:02:38.085 Matt Abrahams: So what are the right kinds of conflict and how do we move 00:02:38.085 --> 00:02:41.715 away from conflict that's destructive to our relationships and toward 00:02:41.715 --> 00:02:43.390 conflict that will make us closer. 00:02:44.925 --> 00:02:48.285 Amy Gallo: The idea is not to eliminate conflict, even if we feel like it's 00:02:48.285 --> 00:02:52.365 unhealthy, but it's to try to transform it into something more productive. 00:02:52.575 --> 00:02:56.115 'Cause usually even at the base of those unhealthy conflicts or 00:02:56.115 --> 00:02:59.325 those unproductive conflicts is something that needs to be resolved. 00:03:00.225 --> 00:03:02.625 Matt Abrahams: Transforming, conflict into a productive resolution. 00:03:02.835 --> 00:03:04.275 Where can I get more of that? 00:03:05.055 --> 00:03:08.595 We've talked a lot about difficult conversations on Think Fast Talk Smart. 00:03:09.345 --> 00:03:12.105 What was interesting as we went through our past episodes to find the 00:03:12.105 --> 00:03:16.095 best tips on dealing with conflict is that they all had a common theme. 00:03:16.665 --> 00:03:21.705 Resolving conflict is much less about the other person and much more about us. 00:03:22.245 --> 00:03:25.965 Jenn Wynn: What makes a conversation difficult is much less the topic 00:03:26.295 --> 00:03:29.565 and much more the inner experience that each person is having. 00:03:29.835 --> 00:03:33.255 What you're thinking and feeling, but not saying out loud. 00:03:33.945 --> 00:03:36.195 Matt Abrahams: That was Jenn Wynn, an award-winning professor 00:03:36.195 --> 00:03:39.225 and the former Director of Education at the Obama Foundation. 00:03:39.735 --> 00:03:44.025 Jen also hosts the podcast, The H.I. Note: Healing Inspirations from 00:03:44.025 --> 00:03:47.175 Life, where she has conversations with people about some of the most 00:03:47.175 --> 00:03:48.795 difficult moments of their lives. 00:03:50.025 --> 00:03:52.305 Jenn Wynn: Your nervous system goes with you into every 00:03:52.305 --> 00:03:54.225 single difficult conversation. 00:03:54.435 --> 00:03:58.155 So if you can pause and regulate your nervous system, then you're 00:03:58.155 --> 00:04:01.875 gonna be a better version of yourself at the time when you most need to 00:04:01.875 --> 00:04:03.075 be the best version of yourself. 00:04:03.165 --> 00:04:07.755 And at the end of the day, the goal is to move away from emotional 00:04:07.755 --> 00:04:09.609 reactivity towards choice. 00:04:10.410 --> 00:04:15.105 I wanna choose the better, more strategic path, not the reaction that 00:04:15.105 --> 00:04:16.875 came out of an emotional trigger. 00:04:18.029 --> 00:04:19.890 Matt Abrahams: Sometimes I find myself thinking about healthy 00:04:19.890 --> 00:04:21.420 conflict as a house I'm building. 00:04:21.930 --> 00:04:25.140 I tell myself, if I can just lay the right foundation and choose the right 00:04:25.140 --> 00:04:27.479 materials, I'll be set for life. 00:04:28.110 --> 00:04:31.830 But conflict is less like building a house and more like pitching a tent. 00:04:32.430 --> 00:04:36.390 The more we use it, the easier it is to remember exactly how we put it together. 00:04:37.289 --> 00:04:40.800 The weather, or how level the ground is, or how many rocks or trees we're working 00:04:40.800 --> 00:04:45.510 around, all affect how successful we'll be at securing a safe, comfortable campsite. 00:04:46.500 --> 00:04:49.980 Just like surveying the ground and weather is the first step for setting up our 00:04:49.980 --> 00:04:54.930 campsite, tuning into how we're feeling is the foundation for a healthy conflict. 00:04:55.409 --> 00:04:58.440 Jenn Wynn: I tell my students, if you only remember one framework from 00:04:58.440 --> 00:05:03.630 this entire course, please remember self-awareness, pause, reframe. 00:05:04.950 --> 00:05:07.349 Matt Abrahams: Self-awareness, pause, reframe. 00:05:08.400 --> 00:05:09.360 Let's break that down. 00:05:09.900 --> 00:05:11.400 First, self-awareness. 00:05:11.985 --> 00:05:17.175 Jenn Wynn: Am I aware of my physical cues, my cognitive and emotional 00:05:17.175 --> 00:05:19.995 cues that let me know I'm triggered? 00:05:20.625 --> 00:05:24.495 So for me, I get a lump in my throat or like a tightness in my chest. 00:05:24.495 --> 00:05:26.805 Some people get, uh, butterflies in their stomach. 00:05:27.015 --> 00:05:28.545 What's my tell sign, right? 00:05:28.695 --> 00:05:32.955 And once I know that, the moment I see it, I know I've gotta pause. 00:05:33.795 --> 00:05:38.805 So a go-to pause technique for me is to imagine myself with my best friend Carla. 00:05:39.795 --> 00:05:40.935 Then I'm at ease. 00:05:40.935 --> 00:05:45.795 I'm centered, and that is our goal, that we lead these conversations 00:05:45.795 --> 00:05:48.914 to a productive outcome, both for the content, the matter at 00:05:48.914 --> 00:05:50.835 hand, and for the relationship. 00:05:51.825 --> 00:05:54.344 Matt Abrahams: Once we've had a chance to survey the situation and notice 00:05:54.344 --> 00:05:58.455 how we feel, and then pause and calm down our nervous system, the final 00:05:58.455 --> 00:06:00.495 step in this framework is to reframe. 00:06:00.840 --> 00:06:05.940 Jenn Wynn: So that last step, reframe, is where I actually shift away from 00:06:06.180 --> 00:06:10.860 viewing this conversation as a threat to something I care about and instead 00:06:10.860 --> 00:06:12.690 perceiving it as a learning opportunity. 00:06:12.900 --> 00:06:15.150 What good information can I get out of this? 00:06:16.170 --> 00:06:18.450 Matt Abrahams: Reframing the conversation so that we can see it 00:06:18.450 --> 00:06:22.200 as a learning opportunity makes a huge difference in how we show up. 00:06:22.755 --> 00:06:24.674 This is something Amy talked about too. 00:06:25.544 --> 00:06:27.495 Amy Gallo: Conflict is often seen as a threat. 00:06:27.734 --> 00:06:30.885 When that happens, we become naturally narcissistic and we become 00:06:30.885 --> 00:06:32.534 focused on, what do I wanna say? 00:06:32.534 --> 00:06:33.794 What do I wanna do? 00:06:34.155 --> 00:06:35.655 We don't think about the other person. 00:06:36.674 --> 00:06:39.525 Matt Abrahams: Thinking back to the toothpaste conflict, it might have helped 00:06:39.525 --> 00:06:44.594 me if I'd taken a moment to follow Jenn's framework, self-awareness, pause, reframe. 00:06:46.195 --> 00:06:49.705 Just that quick check-in probably would've changed my stance going into 00:06:49.705 --> 00:06:53.335 this challenging conversation and made me more curious about how this 00:06:53.335 --> 00:06:56.965 conflict might be a good opportunity to get to know my wife better. 00:06:57.685 --> 00:07:02.815 And it turns out curiosity is key to any difficult conversation. 00:07:03.860 --> 00:07:06.950 Amy Gallo: The very first step is to think strategically, what's 00:07:06.950 --> 00:07:08.210 going on with that other person? 00:07:08.240 --> 00:07:09.350 What's motivating them? 00:07:09.350 --> 00:07:10.370 What do they care about? 00:07:10.370 --> 00:07:13.760 What would be a rational reason that they're behaving this way? 00:07:13.940 --> 00:07:16.850 And that's gonna give you some cues as to how to navigate 00:07:16.910 --> 00:07:18.710 this not so healthy conflict. 00:07:18.740 --> 00:07:21.080 Put yourself in their shoes just for a few minutes. 00:07:21.860 --> 00:07:24.860 Matt Abrahams: What is it that my wife really cares about when she asks me to 00:07:24.860 --> 00:07:28.850 roll the toothpaste tube from the bottom instead of squishing it like Play-Doh? 00:07:29.720 --> 00:07:32.960 Maybe she's more motivated by order and consistency than I am. 00:07:33.540 --> 00:07:36.390 Maybe she's constantly having to overlook annoying behaviors 00:07:36.390 --> 00:07:37.245 from her colleagues at work. 00:07:38.040 --> 00:07:40.980 And having one more irritation at home in her safe space 00:07:41.100 --> 00:07:42.690 just puts her over the edge. 00:07:43.680 --> 00:07:47.340 Even if I'm wrong about my guesses, just imagining where she's coming 00:07:47.340 --> 00:07:49.680 from makes me more compassionate. 00:07:50.640 --> 00:07:53.880 Amy Gallo: Then you wanna think about what are we actually disagreeing about? 00:07:53.970 --> 00:07:55.560 Are we disagreeing about status? 00:07:55.560 --> 00:07:57.150 Who actually gets to make the call? 00:07:57.330 --> 00:07:58.710 Really try to understand. 00:07:59.580 --> 00:08:03.000 Matt Abrahams: For me, squeezing the toothpaste tube isn't a big deal. 00:08:03.390 --> 00:08:06.510 In fact, it makes me feel powerful and it's fun. 00:08:06.770 --> 00:08:10.280 But for her, it was a sign that I wasn't really listening to her, 00:08:10.490 --> 00:08:12.799 which made her feel disrespected. 00:08:13.580 --> 00:08:16.099 The argument really wasn't about toothpaste at all. 00:08:16.190 --> 00:08:20.030 It was about listening and communicating my respect for her. 00:08:20.895 --> 00:08:23.145 Amy Gallo: Then the third step is to think about your goal. 00:08:23.535 --> 00:08:25.965 What is it that I actually want to achieve? 00:08:26.205 --> 00:08:30.735 You might be tempted to have a short-term goal, like I just wanna 00:08:30.735 --> 00:08:32.115 prove I'm right and he's wrong. 00:08:32.145 --> 00:08:33.105 Not helpful, right? 00:08:33.135 --> 00:08:34.455 What's your long-term goal? 00:08:34.515 --> 00:08:36.975 What is it that you need to get this project done on time? 00:08:36.975 --> 00:08:40.155 Is it that you wanna preserve your relationship with the other person? 00:08:40.215 --> 00:08:41.485 Whatever it is, focus on that. 00:08:42.750 --> 00:08:45.300 Matt Abrahams: When my wife called me into the bathroom, I got defensive. 00:08:46.020 --> 00:08:49.860 I started trying to prove what a great husband I was, but focusing on 00:08:49.860 --> 00:08:53.760 the short-term goal of winning that argument made both of us losers. 00:08:54.600 --> 00:08:58.470 A better goal, the real goal, once I stopped to think about it, was to live 00:08:58.470 --> 00:09:02.250 in harmony with my new wife and make sure she knew how much I loved her. 00:09:02.730 --> 00:09:05.880 I married her because she's my favorite person in the world. 00:09:06.240 --> 00:09:07.560 She makes me better. 00:09:08.340 --> 00:09:12.090 When I think about it like that, it seems ridiculous to let a tube 00:09:12.090 --> 00:09:13.465 of toothpaste come between us. 00:09:14.880 --> 00:09:17.880 Amy Gallo: And with that information, what you know about the other person, 00:09:18.120 --> 00:09:21.330 what you know you're disagreeing about, what your goal is, you then 00:09:21.330 --> 00:09:23.640 make a decision about how to proceed. 00:09:23.730 --> 00:09:28.530 We often act rashly because we're sort of activated from the conflict, 00:09:29.430 --> 00:09:30.720 but you have to really be thoughtful. 00:09:30.720 --> 00:09:33.270 Does it make sense to sit down and talk this through? 00:09:33.270 --> 00:09:35.160 Who else might need to be in the room? 00:09:35.430 --> 00:09:36.540 Should I have a phone call? 00:09:36.540 --> 00:09:37.650 Should I do a Zoom meeting? 00:09:37.650 --> 00:09:40.860 Whatever it is, think through what's the best way to set up 00:09:40.860 --> 00:09:42.810 this conversation for success. 00:09:44.145 --> 00:09:46.425 Matt Abrahams: There's one more element we need to consider when we're 00:09:46.425 --> 00:09:49.995 preparing for hard conversations, one that we might not even be able 00:09:49.995 --> 00:09:53.775 to see even after going through Jenn's framework and Amy's questions. 00:09:54.135 --> 00:09:59.355 Julia Minson: There's a lot of advice out there, both in the academic literature 00:09:59.355 --> 00:10:04.860 and in the practitioner literature, that says to navigate disagreement 00:10:04.860 --> 00:10:09.839 better, you need to be curious about the other person's point of view. 00:10:10.260 --> 00:10:12.959 Matt Abrahams: That's Julia Minson, a professor of Public Policy at 00:10:12.959 --> 00:10:16.620 Harvard Kennedy School of Government, and a decision scientist who studies 00:10:16.620 --> 00:10:18.150 the psychology of disagreement. 00:10:18.420 --> 00:10:21.990 Julia Minson: The problem is people think they're already doing it. 00:10:22.740 --> 00:10:25.800 Matt Abrahams: We often think we're being curious, but we don't show it. 00:10:26.805 --> 00:10:30.885 Julia Minson: So a lot of the work we've been doing as a consequence of 00:10:30.885 --> 00:10:37.064 that research is saying, let's stop telling people to feel curious and let's 00:10:37.064 --> 00:10:39.194 start telling people to act curious. 00:10:40.035 --> 00:10:42.435 Matt Abrahams: Julia told me about a fascinating study where 00:10:42.435 --> 00:10:46.814 participants had to start and end their arguments with the words, I'd 00:10:46.814 --> 00:10:48.675 like to learn about your perspective. 00:10:49.515 --> 00:10:53.415 Julia Minson: We ask participants in a study to make an argument on a topic, 00:10:53.714 --> 00:10:57.795 and then we ask them to write a paragraph about what their point of view is. 00:10:58.515 --> 00:11:02.714 We then take that paragraph and then we stick two sentences on the 00:11:02.714 --> 00:11:04.280 beginning and two sentences on the end. 00:11:05.430 --> 00:11:09.600 And the sentences say something like, I understand this is a really 00:11:09.600 --> 00:11:14.370 complicated topic and I would love to understand your point of view. 00:11:14.610 --> 00:11:17.520 And then their own paragraph comes after that, right? 00:11:17.520 --> 00:11:20.070 I believe blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. 00:11:20.400 --> 00:11:26.400 And at the end we say, but I get that some people might disagree and I would 00:11:26.400 --> 00:11:28.110 like to learn about your perspective. 00:11:29.055 --> 00:11:31.814 So we didn't change anything about the person's argument. 00:11:31.845 --> 00:11:36.735 We just slapped two sentences on the beginning, on the end that use 00:11:36.735 --> 00:11:39.975 very simple language to say, I want to learn about your perspective. 00:11:40.545 --> 00:11:48.074 And what we find is massive effects on how reasonable and thoughtful 00:11:48.525 --> 00:11:54.180 and pleasant the original speaker is relative to their own words, which was 00:11:54.180 --> 00:11:57.870 the same exact argument, just without this expression of willingness to 00:11:57.870 --> 00:12:00.030 learn, on the beginning and on the end. 00:12:00.810 --> 00:12:03.969 Matt Abrahams: In other words, just saying the words, I'd like to learn about 00:12:03.969 --> 00:12:06.290 your perspective, makes a difference. 00:12:07.140 --> 00:12:10.079 But what about the part in between where we actually need 00:12:10.079 --> 00:12:12.030 to have that hard conversation? 00:12:12.329 --> 00:12:14.569 Julia Minson: We use a framework that we call HEAR. 00:12:14.939 --> 00:12:16.439 So H-E-A-R. 00:12:17.069 --> 00:12:22.600 Hedging, emphasizing agreement, acknowledging the opposing view, 00:12:22.830 --> 00:12:24.510 and reframing to the positive. 00:12:25.350 --> 00:12:32.940 The H in HEAR stands for hedging, so it's words like sometimes, occasionally, some 00:12:32.940 --> 00:12:36.780 people, words that introduce uncertainty. 00:12:37.680 --> 00:12:40.440 Matt Abrahams: With the toothpaste incident, I might have hedged by saying 00:12:40.440 --> 00:12:44.275 something like, sometimes I forget how important order is to you, and I'm 00:12:44.275 --> 00:12:47.880 guessing there have been many times when you've forgiven me for my messiness. 00:12:49.050 --> 00:12:54.780 Julia Minson: The E stands for emphasizing agreement, and the idea here is that 00:12:54.810 --> 00:12:59.700 even if we disagree dramatically about the thing we're discussing, 00:13:00.540 --> 00:13:02.610 there are some things we agree on. 00:13:03.315 --> 00:13:05.535 Matt Abrahams: I might have said something like, I know it's important 00:13:05.535 --> 00:13:09.075 for both of us that our house feels like a place where we can rest and feel 00:13:09.075 --> 00:13:13.215 at home, and that neither of us wants to nag each other over little things. 00:13:16.065 --> 00:13:21.350 Julia Minson: The A for acknowledgement is using your own words to show that 00:13:21.350 --> 00:13:22.700 you have heard the other person. 00:13:22.970 --> 00:13:26.450 And I like to make a little bit of a disclaimer around the A, 00:13:26.900 --> 00:13:30.260 because there's a good way to do it and there's a bad way to do it. 00:13:30.830 --> 00:13:36.080 The bad way is to say, I hear you, and then you move on to making your own point. 00:13:36.980 --> 00:13:40.490 The good way is that you have to demonstrate what you heard. 00:13:41.720 --> 00:13:44.120 Matt Abrahams: It's easy to say, I hear you when you ask me to roll the 00:13:44.120 --> 00:13:45.650 toothpaste instead of squeeze it. 00:13:46.290 --> 00:13:49.890 But demonstrating I heard my wife's request requires me to get deeper, 00:13:50.040 --> 00:13:51.660 to what's really bothering her. 00:13:52.200 --> 00:13:55.500 What I finally came up with was this, when you asked me to roll 00:13:55.500 --> 00:13:59.190 the toothpaste, I hear you asking me to do something small that will 00:13:59.190 --> 00:14:01.800 make you feel heard and respected. 00:14:03.330 --> 00:14:07.770 Julia Minson: And then the R in HEAR stands for reframing to the positive. 00:14:08.295 --> 00:14:14.474 So instead of saying, I completely disagree that blah, blah, blah, you 00:14:14.474 --> 00:14:17.594 could say, I think blah, blah, blah. 00:14:17.925 --> 00:14:21.074 You can make the same exact point in the positive frame instead of 00:14:21.074 --> 00:14:24.344 the negative frame, so it doesn't spiral into negativity as quickly. 00:14:24.944 --> 00:14:26.505 So H-E-A-R. 00:14:27.074 --> 00:14:32.060 Hedging, emphasizing agreement, acknowledging the opposing view, 00:14:32.230 --> 00:14:33.880 and reframing to the positive. 00:14:34.840 --> 00:14:36.970 Matt Abrahams: So we've got Jenn's framework to help us check 00:14:36.970 --> 00:14:39.850 in with ourselves once we're aware that conflict is coming. 00:14:40.270 --> 00:14:42.910 Self-assessment, pause, and reframe. 00:14:43.810 --> 00:14:47.590 Amy's four questions help us to shift the focus off of us and get 00:14:47.590 --> 00:14:49.120 curious about the other person. 00:14:49.630 --> 00:14:53.380 One, what's a rational reason this person might be acting this way? 00:14:53.830 --> 00:14:56.140 Two, what are we really disagreeing about? 00:14:56.970 --> 00:15:00.180 Three, what's the goal of this conversation? 00:15:00.210 --> 00:15:02.640 Four, what's the best way to proceed? 00:15:03.510 --> 00:15:08.310 Then we can use Julia's HEAR framework to help us actually have the conversation. 00:15:09.750 --> 00:15:12.600 Thinking about these three tools together makes me wanna shift metaphors. 00:15:13.590 --> 00:15:17.460 It's got me thinking about conflict, not as a tent, but as a stone. 00:15:18.150 --> 00:15:21.810 When you drop a pebble in the water, waves ripple out in circles. 00:15:22.230 --> 00:15:24.449 The first circle is checking in with ourselves. 00:15:24.930 --> 00:15:27.689 The next ripple out is thinking about the other person and 00:15:27.689 --> 00:15:28.710 where they're coming from. 00:15:29.490 --> 00:15:33.960 Then we can use HEAR to navigate the third ripple, the actual conversation. 00:15:34.829 --> 00:15:37.650 There's another ripple that came out in our conversation and it's 00:15:37.650 --> 00:15:39.150 one that might surprise you. 00:15:39.480 --> 00:15:43.710 Julia Minson: The willingness to come across as little foolish. 00:15:43.980 --> 00:15:48.150 Jenn Wynn: A real humble attempt to say, this is my summary of what I think 00:15:48.150 --> 00:15:50.100 you experienced, but is that right? 00:15:50.380 --> 00:15:51.430 Fix what I'm missing. 00:15:51.430 --> 00:15:52.240 Is it half right? 00:15:52.240 --> 00:15:53.380 And I missed the other half. 00:15:54.130 --> 00:15:56.260 Matt Abrahams: Paraphrasing what we think we heard the other person 00:15:56.260 --> 00:15:59.800 say, and having the humility to admit we might have gotten it wrong. 00:16:00.780 --> 00:16:04.500 Julia Minson: You know, showing vulnerability or saying, I'm sorry, 00:16:04.500 --> 00:16:05.820 that's not what I meant to say. 00:16:05.820 --> 00:16:07.020 Let me try again. 00:16:07.320 --> 00:16:10.410 Amy Gallo: Saying I don't know what the best answer is, and this is 00:16:10.410 --> 00:16:13.980 why I'm doing what I'm doing, and I'm a real person who's struggling. 00:16:14.220 --> 00:16:19.560 Julia Minson: Giving yourself the chance to admit imperfection, 00:16:19.680 --> 00:16:21.090 so you can do better. 00:16:22.080 --> 00:16:25.560 Jenn Wynn: Once we can paraphrase, this is a skill that, honestly, I think 00:16:25.560 --> 00:16:26.790 it's like punching above its weight. 00:16:27.825 --> 00:16:31.365 After I've taken all this time to really ask these open, thoughtful questions, 00:16:31.365 --> 00:16:36.675 get curious, understand your perspective, make sure you show the person that 00:16:36.675 --> 00:16:38.685 you are internalizing what they said. 00:16:40.095 --> 00:16:43.005 Matt Abrahams: Thinking back to the toothpaste incident again, I could have 00:16:43.005 --> 00:16:46.365 said something like, I really wanna understand where you're coming from. 00:16:46.755 --> 00:16:50.355 It seems like I'm not doing a good enough job showing you that I'm listening 00:16:50.355 --> 00:16:52.215 to you and making you feel respected. 00:16:52.515 --> 00:16:53.175 Is that right? 00:16:53.865 --> 00:16:55.875 Or is there something I'm still not understanding? 00:16:56.520 --> 00:16:59.910 I really want to understand your perspective because the last thing I 00:16:59.910 --> 00:17:03.150 want to do is to have you feel like I'm not listening or respecting you. 00:17:04.410 --> 00:17:07.650 We might be tempted at this point to rush into a difficult conversation 00:17:07.650 --> 00:17:11.250 now that we've done all of our great self-reflection, and thought through 00:17:11.250 --> 00:17:12.869 our goals and how to achieve them. 00:17:13.290 --> 00:17:17.010 But there's one last ripple, a step we often skip that 00:17:17.010 --> 00:17:18.750 can make all the difference. 00:17:19.589 --> 00:17:20.339 Jenn Wynn: Practice. 00:17:20.940 --> 00:17:23.760 At the end of the day, the goal is not perfection. 00:17:23.790 --> 00:17:24.690 It doesn't exist. 00:17:25.575 --> 00:17:27.855 The goal is continual improvement. 00:17:28.515 --> 00:17:30.315 I wanna keep getting better and better. 00:17:30.885 --> 00:17:36.945 And so the way to do that, of course, like any muscle building activity is practice. 00:17:37.455 --> 00:17:41.115 And as we continue to have more and more repetition, right, as we build 00:17:41.115 --> 00:17:44.385 in the reps, we're not only gonna build the muscle, which feels good. 00:17:44.635 --> 00:17:48.805 But then it's gonna be ready for us to flex when the moment counts. 00:17:49.135 --> 00:17:53.125 When we're in the most consequential conversation, we will have already 00:17:53.125 --> 00:17:57.235 built up those great question asking muscles, those great paraphrasing 00:17:57.235 --> 00:18:00.805 muscles, those great intention stating muscles and so on and so forth. 00:18:00.985 --> 00:18:04.135 So, practice, practice, practice, and make it a little more 00:18:04.165 --> 00:18:05.935 challenging each time along the way. 00:18:07.590 --> 00:18:10.290 Matt Abrahams: Listening back to these conversations with Amy, Jenn, and 00:18:10.290 --> 00:18:14.610 Julia, I'm struck by how much focus there is on what happens before the 00:18:14.610 --> 00:18:16.710 difficult conversation even starts. 00:18:17.550 --> 00:18:21.420 But what if we do all that and then we get into the actual conversation and 00:18:21.420 --> 00:18:23.070 it doesn't go the way we were hoping? 00:18:23.820 --> 00:18:26.730 Joseph Grenny: What's difficult in crucial conversations is oftentimes our 00:18:26.730 --> 00:18:30.900 motives shift to debating or defending without us even being aware of it. 00:18:31.710 --> 00:18:35.130 Matt Abrahams: That's Joseph Grenny, a renowned speaker and bestselling author. 00:18:35.460 --> 00:18:39.930 His work focuses on how individuals and organizations can improve communication, 00:18:40.140 --> 00:18:42.720 influence, behavior, and drive change. 00:18:43.260 --> 00:18:44.940 Joseph Grenny: People will tell you, you're being defensive. 00:18:44.940 --> 00:18:46.200 No, I'm not being defensive. 00:18:46.380 --> 00:18:48.210 It looks like to them you're being defensive. 00:18:48.660 --> 00:18:51.390 I came in with a motive of problem solving, but pretty 00:18:51.390 --> 00:18:55.200 soon I got ego invested and oftentimes we're not self-aware 00:18:55.200 --> 00:18:56.700 that that has actually occurred. 00:18:57.660 --> 00:18:58.800 Matt Abrahams: This one hit home for me. 00:18:59.460 --> 00:19:03.389 In my conversation with my wife, I was already feeling criticized and defensive, 00:19:03.780 --> 00:19:07.889 and then my ego took over because I wanted to prove that squeezing toothpaste 00:19:07.889 --> 00:19:10.230 didn't make me lazy or inconsiderate. 00:19:11.040 --> 00:19:12.270 But there's good news here. 00:19:12.899 --> 00:19:16.290 If we can notice that our motives have shifted and we just want 00:19:16.290 --> 00:19:20.790 to win the argument, we have an opportunity to shift the conversation. 00:19:21.360 --> 00:19:23.040 Joseph Grenny: People who are really good at these moments 00:19:23.040 --> 00:19:24.419 learned to look for signals. 00:19:25.050 --> 00:19:26.885 Sometimes it's just something I feel in my body. 00:19:27.885 --> 00:19:30.765 I've come to know that when my jaws are tight and when my shoulders are 00:19:30.765 --> 00:19:34.005 clenched and I'm leaning forward and I'm talking faster, that's 00:19:34.005 --> 00:19:35.535 a sign my motives have shifted. 00:19:35.955 --> 00:19:37.965 I no longer want what I originally wanted. 00:19:37.965 --> 00:19:39.345 I now want something else. 00:19:39.525 --> 00:19:42.915 I wanna punish, I want to win, I want to be right. 00:19:43.605 --> 00:19:46.635 The two most potent ways of shifting back, of getting to 00:19:46.635 --> 00:19:49.125 dialogue, are asking two questions. 00:19:49.485 --> 00:19:52.215 First, what am I acting like I want. 00:19:53.250 --> 00:19:54.450 You can do this covertly. 00:19:54.450 --> 00:19:56.040 This can be an internal dialogue. 00:19:56.460 --> 00:20:00.090 And I gotta tell you, Matt, at least for me, it's an ego enema. 00:20:00.570 --> 00:20:05.070 When in that moment I acknowledge to myself, no, this is about punishing. 00:20:05.550 --> 00:20:08.550 You said something I didn't like, I'm feeling hurt, and that that 00:20:08.550 --> 00:20:11.790 was unjust, and I'm actually trying to hurt you right now. 00:20:12.360 --> 00:20:16.590 Just acknowledging that to myself makes me not want it anymore. 00:20:17.040 --> 00:20:20.070 Because most of us don't like the dissonance of thinking of ourselves 00:20:20.070 --> 00:20:23.130 as a decent human being, but then acknowledging that we've got motives 00:20:23.130 --> 00:20:24.600 that are not particularly pretty. 00:20:25.830 --> 00:20:29.850 Matt Abrahams: Once we've asked ourselves what we're acting like we want, the second 00:20:29.850 --> 00:20:32.190 question is to ask, what do I really want? 00:20:33.180 --> 00:20:34.710 Joseph Grenny: What do I really want for me? 00:20:35.160 --> 00:20:36.750 What do I really want for you, Matt? 00:20:36.810 --> 00:20:38.730 What do I really want for the relationship? 00:20:39.060 --> 00:20:44.040 What happens is the short term impulsive motives that often possess us in these 00:20:44.040 --> 00:20:48.900 moments, we start to be liberated of those and asking the really want question 00:20:48.900 --> 00:20:53.640 orients us towards longer term goals, some of the deeper interests that we have. 00:20:54.150 --> 00:20:57.750 Just acknowledging that to myself shifts my mode. 00:20:58.365 --> 00:20:59.925 My behavior starts to change. 00:20:59.925 --> 00:21:02.505 When your motive changes behavior follows naturally. 00:21:02.925 --> 00:21:06.795 And we tend to talk more patiently, more respectfully, more openly towards others. 00:21:07.005 --> 00:21:10.935 So even without a lot of training in crucial conversation skills, just getting 00:21:10.935 --> 00:21:14.625 your motive back on track can make an enormous difference in how you show up. 00:21:15.855 --> 00:21:17.865 Matt Abrahams: Let's bring it all together one last time. 00:21:18.495 --> 00:21:23.355 First, use self-awareness, pause, reframe to check in with ourselves. 00:21:23.940 --> 00:21:26.970 If the conflict is the pebble we throw in the water, checking in 00:21:26.970 --> 00:21:28.710 with ourselves is the first ripple. 00:21:29.820 --> 00:21:32.430 The next ripple is to get curious about the other person and 00:21:32.430 --> 00:21:34.590 ask ourselves four questions. 00:21:35.340 --> 00:21:38.220 What's a rational reason this person might be acting this way? 00:21:38.700 --> 00:21:40.620 What are we really disagreeing about? 00:21:41.190 --> 00:21:43.320 What's the goal of this conversation? 00:21:43.680 --> 00:21:45.360 And what's the best way to proceed? 00:21:46.440 --> 00:21:51.720 The third ripple is to practice the conversation by using HEAR, H-E-A-R. 00:21:52.050 --> 00:21:56.310 Hedging, emphasizing agreement, acknowledgement, and reframing 00:21:56.310 --> 00:21:57.300 towards the positive. 00:21:58.200 --> 00:22:01.440 If you don't have someone to practice with, try recording your conversation 00:22:01.440 --> 00:22:02.879 in a voice memo on your phone. 00:22:03.540 --> 00:22:07.110 You can even feed it into your favorite AI tool to anticipate how the other 00:22:07.110 --> 00:22:11.100 person might respond, and then practice using the tools in this episode to 00:22:11.100 --> 00:22:15.510 paraphrase what they've said and make sure they feel heard and understood. 00:22:16.710 --> 00:22:21.180 Finally, if we're in a difficult conversation and it's not going well, stop 00:22:21.180 --> 00:22:23.340 to notice how we're feeling in our bodies. 00:22:23.805 --> 00:22:26.685 Then ask, what am I acting like I want? 00:22:27.045 --> 00:22:27.825 Revenge? 00:22:28.245 --> 00:22:29.925 Making the other person feel bad? 00:22:30.615 --> 00:22:34.125 Once we've gotten that ego enema, we're in a much better place 00:22:34.125 --> 00:22:36.195 to ask, what do I really want? 00:22:36.495 --> 00:22:41.085 And remind ourselves of the importance of the relationship and what really matters. 00:22:41.690 --> 00:22:44.510 Jenn Wynn: Often when we don't have the conversation, it's because 00:22:44.510 --> 00:22:46.400 we assume it will go poorly. 00:22:46.520 --> 00:22:48.290 So we give up before we've even started. 00:22:48.680 --> 00:22:49.640 But here's the thing. 00:22:49.730 --> 00:22:53.060 Most things that we want in life are on the other side 00:22:53.060 --> 00:22:54.410 of a difficult conversation. 00:22:54.710 --> 00:23:00.050 So are you just going to give up on your biggest dreams in life because you weren't 00:23:00.055 --> 00:23:04.190 willing to take the time to step outta your comfort zone and practice a skill? 00:23:04.400 --> 00:23:08.480 Communication is a set of skills, learnable, growable skills. 00:23:08.660 --> 00:23:14.955 And difficult communication is a set of hard, but worth it, skills. 00:23:15.824 --> 00:23:18.675 Joseph Grenny: The world will get better to the degree we start seeing more 00:23:18.675 --> 00:23:22.245 examples of people that have learned to say the truth and to say it in a 00:23:22.245 --> 00:23:24.645 way that is inclusive and is inviting. 00:23:25.185 --> 00:23:27.195 You don't just get better at it by accident. 00:23:27.675 --> 00:23:31.034 And the really important thing for people to understand during crucial 00:23:31.034 --> 00:23:35.355 conversations is the emotion you feel is far more subject to your control 00:23:35.355 --> 00:23:36.855 and influence than you realize. 00:23:38.070 --> 00:23:41.400 Matt Abrahams: Eventually, my wife and I did have that difficult conversation, 00:23:41.820 --> 00:23:45.870 not just about toothpaste, but about how I could communicate more clearly with 00:23:45.870 --> 00:23:50.040 her that I respect her and show her I'm listening when she asks for something. 00:23:50.790 --> 00:23:54.270 To this day, we have two tubes of toothpaste in our bathroom. 00:23:54.930 --> 00:23:59.010 One neatly rolled in, one aggressively squeezed. 00:23:59.940 --> 00:24:03.720 As an epilogue, there was a time when my younger son got upset with my 00:24:03.720 --> 00:24:08.100 wife and having heard this story many times about our toothpaste troubles, 00:24:08.250 --> 00:24:12.315 he ran into the bathroom and squeezed her toothpaste just to make a point. 00:24:13.485 --> 00:24:16.665 Thank you for joining us for this 250th episode of Think 00:24:16.665 --> 00:24:18.675 Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:24:19.185 --> 00:24:22.425 To hear more episodes about conflict and navigating difficult 00:24:22.425 --> 00:24:24.705 conversations, check out our show notes. 00:24:25.185 --> 00:24:28.185 This episode was produced by Laura Joyce Davis, Katherine 00:24:28.200 --> 00:24:30.405 Reed, and me, Matt Abrahams. 00:24:30.975 --> 00:24:32.535 Our theme music is from Floyd Wonder. 00:24:33.060 --> 00:24:36.450 Additional music from this episode came from Blue Dot Sessions and 00:24:36.450 --> 00:24:37.890 is listed in our show notes. 00:24:38.100 --> 00:24:40.470 With special thanks to Podium Podcast Company. 00:24:41.010 --> 00:24:44.310 Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. 00:24:44.520 --> 00:24:46.530 Be sure to subscribe and rate us. 00:24:46.770 --> 00:24:49.830 Also follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok, and Instagram. 00:24:50.190 --> 00:24:54.240 And check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language 00:24:54.240 --> 00:24:56.280 learning content, and our newsletter. 00:24:56.835 --> 00:25:00.285 Please consider our Think Fast Talk Smart Learning Community, where you 00:25:00.285 --> 00:25:03.855 can join a global community of people interested in honing and developing 00:25:03.855 --> 00:25:05.715 their communication and career skills. 00:25:05.985 --> 00:25:10.785 You get access to asynchronous lessons, an AI coach, quests 00:25:10.785 --> 00:25:12.405 and challenges, and much more. 00:25:12.825 --> 00:25:15.855 Join us at fastersmarter.io/learning. 00:25:16.185 --> 00:25:19.925 That is fastersmarter.io/learning.