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Welcome to another edition of the Always Be Testing podcast with your 

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host, Ty De Grange. Get a guided tour of the world of growth, performance 

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marketing, customer acquisition, paid media, and affiliate marketing. 

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We talk with industry experts and discuss experiments and their learnings in growth, 

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marketing, and life. Time to nerd out, check your biases at the door, and 

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have some fun talking about data driven growth and lessons learned. 

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Hello. Hello. Hello. Welcome to another episode of the Always Be Testing 

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podcast. I'm your host, Ty DeGrange, and I'm really excited to talk to Richard Wright 

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today. Hey, Richard. How are you doing, man? Yeah. I'm doing great. Thanks, Ty. How are you? I'm good. It's 

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so good to see you. It's, been pleasure to knowing you for a very long time and to 

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stay in touch and, excited to dive into things with you today. Yeah. Likewise. Yeah. I was, 

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I was thinking it was it's probably been over ten years ago, probably when we first 

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met, obviously, with eBay. Absolutely. What a great affiliate experience which 

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we'll dive into. So for those of you who don't know, Richard Wright is an amazing 

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affiliate marketing practitioner, very experienced, professional, thoughtful, 

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knows his stuff. He's based out of the UK and has been on all 

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sides of the affiliate marketing game from agency to brand 

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to consulting, knows knows more than than most in this space. I I 

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definitely am thrilled to have him on. He's a wealth of knowledge. So, really gonna be a 

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treat to chat with him today. Oh, thank you. That was very, very flattered to hear you say all 

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of that. Sometimes feel like I suppose a lot of people, you you forget sometimes how long you've 

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been in the industry, maybe how much knowledge you've you've acquired. But, yeah, certainly been around 

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a long time. It's well deserved. It's well deserved. And maybe, maybe 

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share just getting getting going. Like, how how did you get into the affiliate 

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marketing world? Yeah. I think it's worth, like, a lot of people, a little a little bit by accident. So I 

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actually, when I left school, I didn't go to college right away. I sort of 

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kind of, yeah, I wasn't really in the right frame of mind. We'll put it there. But 

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I ended up working in insurance for five years as an insurance broker, 

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and I got really bored doing that. And what it always wanted to do is work in 

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advertising marketing. And so I grew up in the eighties and nineties with those amazing 

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TV brand ads. It's a real sort of, purple period for that kind of 

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advertising. So I went to college about twenty four, twenty five, just thinking 

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about advertising, TV advertising, that kind of you know, that's cool stuff. And, 

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obviously, digital marketing was it was really starting to gain prominence at the time. So while I 

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was on my course, I was really wanting to zone in on those modules. So at 

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that time, there was ten modules. Digital marketing was just one, and it 

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was in an elective. So, I made sure I was on that module, learned what I 

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could. Whatever I was learning was pretty obsolete, I'll I'll be honest, at the 

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time. But as soon as I graduated in two thousand seven, I knew I needed to get a 

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job. I knew I needed to get a job in in digital. And literally in the 

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middle of my exams, I haven't even completed my degree course yet. I had the, the 

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interview with with ROI, which is, how we eventually got connected with eBay. 

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And, that turned out and it was affiliate marketing. I'd never heard of it. Didn't know 

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what it was. All I knew was they were gonna hire me. It was in digital marketing. It 

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sounded cool, cool company to work for. And then, yeah, that that's how I 

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got into it. And, yeah, it's it's been one of the it's been a brilliant career. 

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It's just one of those ones that think, you know, I'm not a sort of super techie guy. 

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I'm not a super, you know, numbers accounting guy. It sort of it needs quite a 

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broad range of skill sets, I think. You know? You gotta be good relationships. You've gotta be 

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commercial. You know, you've gotta be reasonably tech savvy, and you you've gotta be able to bring it all 

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together. So I thought that sort of suits my skill set quite well. 

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But it's, yeah, it's a fun industry. It's, you know, it's it's a lot of relationships and things like 

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that. So, yes, I've I've stuck at it all these years. That's amazing. 

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Yeah. And I think you nailed it with how it, like, blends together so many 

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aspects. And and and there's there's focus data aspects. There's partnership aspect. There's 

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human psych aspects of the business and the job. So it really resonates 

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with me, especially because there's a lot of stuff that gets packed into affiliate marketing 

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and that a lot not a lot of people are aware of. So that's really interesting. What's been 

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your observation about kind of that UK market? Obviously, you're coming from that 

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perspective, but you've also had exposure to so many other, you know, markets. Maybe I'm just 

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curious to learn a little bit about how do you maybe see how it maybe operates a little bit differently than the 

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US market and other regions. Yeah. It's an interesting one because, I think the the biggest 

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difference we see, particularly when I look at the UK and the US, with the US, 

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I think the budgets required for you know, when you're buying investing in media with, you know, some 

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of the bigger partners, so much bigger than the UK. So in the UK, 

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there's if you wanted to buy a, you know, a week long package of exposure and say a cashback 

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site, you might be talking, you know, two thousand to five thousand dollars, whereas in 

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the US, it could be twenty to thirty thousand dollars. And, obviously, the size of the 

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market in the US is so much bigger. But I I definitely know that when people are, 

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you know, in the UK managing programs and then branch out into the US, that's always a 

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bit of a shock for, you know, what their the costs are for additional media and things. 

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And so that's one that's definitely kind of jumped out, I think. And when we start looking 

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at, maybe, going to Europe, so I think, yeah, different countries 

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has got different levels of understanding of affiliates. So I think probably 

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my experience, you know, Germany, maybe, probably similar kind of 

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levels of, acceptance and knowledge, and and affiliate marketing is is is sort 

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of a a norm, but sort of you get into maybe kind of France, Italy, Spain. It's a little 

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as a model, it's sort of less advanced, I'd say. Yeah. So it's certainly not, and 

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one of this is one of the key things I think I learned with when I was working with eBay because 

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we had this idea in in the UK. We had a way of working and some publishers that we really 

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knew how they worked, what motivated them, and we fondly thought that we could just go to 

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France and do the same thing in Italy and Spain, and it just didn't work. 

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And I remember speaking to a colleague who was at eBay and said that, you know, the, 

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even just buying things, ecommerce, the whole thing is very different. So, you know, in Italy, for 

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example, they're explaining that the delivery, the postal service is just not reliable. No 

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one in their right mind would buy a TV, but, you know, from a website. And I mean, I don't know if that's 

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still the same now. This is going back a bit. But there's there's a lot of other things that you sort of 

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need to consider of how things work in the UK, which is a small 

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island. You know? It's very easy to deliver things around the place. But other countries, 

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very different. Other countries, I think Spain, people don't have credit cards like that like they 

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do here. It's not nearly this you know? You know what I mean? So there's so many local market 

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nuances that make ecommerce and, therefore, affiliate marketing more challenging. 

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And the the key thing is you really need to sort of approach each market with a bit of an 

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open mind, speak to people there, and, you know, not have this mindset of, oh, this 

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works in the UK. It'll work everywhere. Or, oh, this works in the US. Everybody's 

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gonna work like this. So there are there are a lot of local market nuances. But I think 

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it all comes down to it's like, with a lot of things, it's that customer first approach is, you know, 

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aware of how how are they actually buying things, what are the places where they go, what 

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makes that convenient, and then that sort of really helps you understand that, okay, these are the partners I need to 

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work with. That makes sense. And and having such good Fascinating. Yeah. It is fascinating. 

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Having such experience, you know, broadly with specific programs and, you know, 

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being able to have a visibility into, like, multiple, you know, European programs and UK 

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programs. Like, have you noticed, like, a particular maybe estimated amount of 

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overlap between countries? Or I'm just curious to know I would imagine it's it's quite 

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specific, and there's obviously a lot of a lot of, partners that can 

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expand beyond, you know, go multi country, US to UK, Canada, 

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you know, multi multiple coverage across Europe. But how much is that 

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overlap a thing versus more country specific in your experience? Yeah. I don't 

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know, to be honest. It's, because some things will will overlap for sure. So I'm thinking that are 

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you thinking more like publisher business models or sort of brands and advertisers? Yeah. 

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Thinking more publisher side, like, their ability to reach customers across, 

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you know, let's say, like, beyond, let's say, is I'm trying to understand kind of, 

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like, in your experience, how much did you see, like, a partner be able to reach 

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users across Europe, across Spain, France, Italy, Germany, etcetera, 

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rather than just be focused on Germany as an example. Gotcha. Yeah. I think, 

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generally, I think a lot of publishers find that very, very difficult because, you've got the translations. 

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And sometimes, depending what your website is called, if it's a sort of, 

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if the name of your business has got a word in it like cashback, that word is very different in 

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those different countries. So, again, when people are searching communities, and they start, 

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generally quite locally. It might be to a to a region or to a country, and they get famous in 

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there. So sort of each country has sort of its loyalties to its to those 

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businesses that have come up. So it's it is very difficult as a publisher to to go to one 

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publisher that will cover all of Europe. I did I've not found Yeah. I'm struggling to 

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think of one that would cover that. And, interestingly, I was speaking to 

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partner early today, actually, to do and this is in the sort of cycling world. It was a a cycling, 

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federation. So Movistar has a cycling team. They compete in the Tour de France and things like 

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that. Their audience is predominantly Spanish, but also Latin America. 

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So they have that sort of even the geographically very, very far apart is sort of culturally 

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similar because of the language. So that's sort of a fairly unique case, but it sort of shows that sometimes that, you 

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know, just because a country is right next door to each other, that they think, oh, they'll 

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they'll be able to influence that audience. I think that's probably one of the the biggest challenges because you'd like to 

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think, maybe if you're sat in the US, think, oh, let's crack America. What's the big European 

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publisher that can speak to all of them? I can't really think of one that does. You know, you'll the probably the 

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closest you would get is a publisher, like, I suppose, global 

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savings group that has bought properties in each of those regions and can give you some 

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degree of you know, if I onboard with them, they can onboard in all of those different 

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countries, or they can give some localized solutions. But, you know, it is it's 

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definitely a challenge going ongoing pan European. That makes sense. 

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It's super interesting. You know, it kind of brings up the thought of, like, the ideal partner 

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mix. It's something that, you know, I've talked about in in my newsletter, and we we 

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run into it in all programs. We look at we look under the hood and see kind of a a mix of 

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partner types and publisher business models like you said. We haven't talked a lot about this yet 

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in recent terms, but what are you kinda seeing in that in that sense? And, like, 

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maybe with some of the examples you've had you know, you've obviously had so many great learnings in your 

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career, various advertiser brand programs. But what's, like, a 

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mix that you feel or or maybe some observations you have on the mix from a 

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UK perspective or some of the from the program types that you've had. I'm curious to learn more about 

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that because I kinda have some barometers. We've talked about it. You know, it's come up recently with the 

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PMA, and PMA is having that kind of, like, survey where they're trying to get more insights 

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into partner mixes and and how brands are approaching it. But sorry for the long 

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intro, but what are you kinda seeing with partner mix? It's very often brand specific. So 

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because we wanna think about where so so currently where I work with with Zwift as a 

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business, we just don't do we've never really done any discounting. So for 

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us, it doesn't make sense to do extensive work within the coupon sector, for example. 

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So we we predominantly do, and and because our product is quite complicated, 

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for a lot of people, indoor cycling is quite a new topic. It inherently is one 

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that requires quite a lot of explanation. So it it naturally lends itself to things like 

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editorial content and video influences. So so the the 

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sort of the the makeup of our program, although it's a very new affiliate program, 

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only launched in September, Those that's the mix that's probably gonna 

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work best for us. And, you know, we will test things like, you know, cashback and some of the 

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more, conversion focused ones as well. Generally find it that the mix 

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I suppose the golden rule is to try and aim for as much diversity as possible, so not over 

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relying on any one business model or over relying on any one partner too much. 

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But then it's sort of a horses for courses, if you like it, you know, in terms of the mix. 

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I think there's always a danger if, you know, way too much of you know, if eighty percent of your 

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program is coming from just coupon code, I'd say that would definitely be a red 

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flag. You know, then there needs to be that diversity in there with, you know, certainly 

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content and influencers. But affiliates is so broad now anyway. We you know, you think 

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about technology partners as well. It's they're all doing very, very 

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different things for that brand. You know, if you think it you know, it's either it's bringing new customers, then you've 

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got different types of partners that can do that, then you've got partners that are great at converting 

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things maybe on your site and and so on. So, yeah, I do but it's 

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very difficult to give a a kind of one answer to that. It's I think each one needs 

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to think about where it is in its sort of journey, what's its product. 

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Yeah. What does it need its affiliate program to do for it? You know, some brands are very 

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mature, got loads of brand awareness out there, and they look at their affiliate program as we want you 

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to convert our audience that we that is aware from all of our other activities. 

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Some brands will say we want affiliates to do all of it or, you know, to be involved in all of it. So it's 

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so, yeah, I think it's quite difficult to give sort of a a one size fits all. 

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It's a bit of an unfair question, but I think it's cool because the the audience can understand how you think about 

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it. You're thinking it from a very, you know, brand centric customized way. You're not 

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just applying a a a templated approach, which I think people would get into problems with. 

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You know, maybe you keep you know, obviously, your focus is Zwift right now. Maybe give us a little bit of background 

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on just the business and what it does for consumers who are curious. Like, I think it's really cool to just 

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dig into that a little bit because that's that's where a lot of your focus is right now, and I think people would be super interested 

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to learn more about the brand. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. So, well, I I started with Zwift in February, and I'll be honest, 

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I hadn't heard of it before it started. Very much, but it's within, 

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so it's within the cycling world. So if you're into cycling, road biking, mountain biking, and 

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triathletes, Zwift is a huge brand. So it's indoor cycling. So, 

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the idea is that, you sort of during the summer months, you're probably out on your bike, but during the winter 

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months when it's cold, you wanna be indoor training. Now in the old days, that was on a 

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sort of an old, exercise bike, and you'd be staring at your wall just 

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pedaling away, bored out of your mind. So what Zwift aims to do is make indoor cycling 

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fun. So the the product itself is, it's an app. It's a game. It's a 

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virtual world, and there's, hardware and equipment that 

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is sort of, connects what you're pedaling into what's going on in the game. 

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So you've got races. It's a massively social platform as well. So you've got 

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clubs and communities and other riders. You can race just for fun. You 

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can do races. There are professionals, Zwifters. So it there's all sorts of different 

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ways on there, but, essentially, what you've got is somebody indoors probably in a little 

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office like my room here, maybe their garage, or they call it a a pain 

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cave. So this is, yeah, in some people, some 

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people use it to train for their road biking in the real world. Some people are exclusively 

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indoor cycling in, you know, Zwifters. You know, when you think about esports, esports is 

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massive. Yeah. So it's sort of it does kind of all of those 

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sorts of things. And some of the really interesting things about it, one of the challenging things about 

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it is there's quite a high barrier to entry in terms of cost, the gear, the equipment. 

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So one of the things that Zwift is really trying to do is bring that barrier to entry down, bringing the 

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cost of equipment down. And some of the products that that we've released very 

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recently and in the last couple of years have really aimed to do that because for us, what matters is 

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getting people swifting, getting people onto the game, and having fun. And and 

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that's how our business works, really. So Yeah. If we give people a low cost entry product 

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that's a great product Yeah. That that's gonna get them on there. But it's a yeah. I love it. 

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It's super fascinating. I'm not a I'm not a huge cyclist, but I know people who are specifically, 

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and we have a ton of them in in Austin. I know coming from the Bay Area, California, there 

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was it was a huge community. It's really, really fascinating. It's like almost 

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like the Peloton thing, but way more focused on the real real hardcore 

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cyclists. Right? That's right. Yeah. So Peloton would probably be more focused on, I suppose, 

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it's more like a spin class. So it's probably, you know, CrossFitters Yeah. You know, that sort of thing. Zwift is much 

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more focused on road cyclists, triathletes, and, and because 

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the experience is kind of gamified and there's new features come out now. You can get power 

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ups and things like that. So, yeah, it's a it's a very different kind of audience. But, yeah, if you if 

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people are following Tour de France right now, depending on where you are in the world, you might start to see some 

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Zwift adverts. You'll see some Zwift logos around that. And what I've sort of said, it it 

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feels like it's the biggest thing I've never heard of. I I 

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bet. Yeah. Do you find there's people that are entering with 

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Zwift and then becoming a cyclist, or is it always people that are, like, always a 

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pretty experienced cyclist that adopt Zwift? I think it's changing. So I 

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think much earlier in the in the company's journey, it was much more the latter of, you know, existing 

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cyclists who want something more convenient. So, you know, if you imagine 

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to train for a road cycle event, it's hours out on the bike somewhere. And if you live in the 

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middle of New York City, how are you gonna do that? Or, you know, middle of New York City during 

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the winter, do you really wanna get on a road bike for several hours? It's you just you know, it's 

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just not convenient or realistic for people to do it. So this gave them a really 

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fun, exciting, compelling way of doing that in their in their garage. But as 

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the barrier to entries come down and as the Zwift brand has has grown, as our products 

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have got a bit more friendlier to outsiders, it's kind of coming the other way now. So we are starting 

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to see more people discover Zwift as you know, people probably come from more of a fitness, you 

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know, mindset saying, I I need to do more cardio, and and, you know, there's lots of options. There's Peloton or I could 

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go running. And, you know, people are discovering Zwift as well. This looks like a fun way that I can, you 

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know, do my exercise at home, and discovering that way. So, yeah, I 

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think it's definitely changing. I love it. That's really interesting. It seems like a really cool 

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niche offering. It seems like the price point is really compelling, and I can see where it's big. 

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Are you seeing adoption, like, bigger in certain regions? Obviously, you've got, I'm curious to 

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know more about, like, where it's available and where you're seeing the most customer adoption geographically. 

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Yeah. I think, geographically so I mean, Zwift as in in the app, the game, it is available 

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globally. So, you know, we have every, you know, most countries sort of cover. But where where we're sort of, 

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I mean, Zwift is a US business. Where it's strongest broadly follows where that 

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cycling enthusiast audience is. So, it's gonna be the US, UK, Europe. 

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So you think about in in Europe where the big cycling events are in France, in 

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Italy, in Spain. That's where we we we see the biggest sort of penetration, 

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but it's it's really growing in places like Australia, as well. We've definitely got 

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people, you know, China or over Asia, but it's sort of, it it 

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definitely follows this sort of cycling as a sport where those people 

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are. And so yeah. So, yeah, if you if there's a country that is showing Tour de France on the 

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TV, it's probably got a strong, Zwift customer base 

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there. But in terms of sort of where we're shipping currently, it's definitely US, 

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UK, and Europe is where we're the only focus. That's very cool. I'm yeah. I'm 

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curious to learn more. I could see it being massive with with the cycling community in areas where they 

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they certainly have limitations to when they can ride. And I like that they're you're kinda seeing that 

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transferring conversion both sides, like people that are new to cycling or people that are 

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experienced in cycling. It's happening. That's fascinating. Are you 

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obviously, the content influencer has kind of taken over our world. What other kind of, like, 

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macro trends are you seeing in affiliate marketing that are notable for you 

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and the brand or or maybe just learnings that you've had recently in terms of tests 

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and experiments. I'd love to hear more about maybe your thoughts on those verticals because they've 

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become so important and powerful recently and and but also curious about 

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other macro observations that you're seeing in the space. Yeah. So the thing is it is a macro 

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observation. There was a written an article early in the year, actually, about coupon codes 

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more generally. And it was sort of more as an observation that there are 

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I think they're under the the traditional coupon code publisher being under threat from 

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lots of different angles of how brands are managing their code 

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strategies. So there are so many more solutions now where people don't have to 

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leave the brand's website to go and get a code and come back. So, you know, you're seeing, more 

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brands working with each other, so in the basket. So, you know, people like Myprotein are 

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doing that. I think quite a lot of other brands, are now having their own 

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coupon codes on their site. So, you know, there are there are partners that will give them the 

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technology to to do that, and some of those codes might be for specific audiences. 

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So it could be for students or, health care workers or veterans and things like 

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that. And brands doing more of the loyalty points and things like that. So so the I 

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think there's a general trend of more solutions around offers and offer management 

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that are very different from those public coupon sites. And while there are a 

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lot of very good coupon sites out there, there are a lot of bad ones as well. So anyone that 

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manages an affiliate program is probably getting applications from dozens of 

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coupon code sites a week. So there's a lot of them out there. But I would say, 

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generally speaking, there are other solutions that brands are looking at that are very different to 

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that. So that's a sort of a broad trend, that I've seen, but brand 

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to brand seems to be getting quite a lot of traction. So sometimes that's, 

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it's just two complimentary brands saying, hey. We've got audiences we're both interested in. What's the best 

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way that we can work together and exchange value so we we can, you 

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know, exchange those audiences. And and I think that's the the beauty of affiliate, and this is why it's 

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sort of you could argue it's not strictly speaking affiliate. You know? Maybe we're not paying a commission to 

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that other brand. But the the fundamentals there, it's I'm working for a brand. 

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I've got an audience I'm interested in. How can I acquire that audience? And being 

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really open minded about how I do that. So brand to brand's getting really 

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interesting. Technology partners as well, which is a sort of again, you 

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you probably wouldn't think about that as being affiliate at all. It's really a conversion optimization 

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tools. The only thing that makes it affiliate is you pay on performance. And it's 

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so there's a lot of these solutions and ways of thinking about things 

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that really giving people a lot of different ways of, I suppose, making ecommerce 

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work best for their brand. And it's sort of thinking, you know, is is affiliate a 

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channel? I think that was a a debate that you had with, another guest on the the podcast, Tom. 

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And and it is an affiliate at least is lots of different channels. The only thing that unites 

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them all is that pay on performance model. So, yeah, it's 

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Yeah. Thinking more broadly about how you require an audience. I love 

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that. I think that's why I've been drawn to it. I think that's why a lot of people are. 

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There's just so many levers to pull. You can be so much more diverse. You know, all your 

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diverse all your eggs aren't in, like, the meta basket. It's full funnel. 

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There it's multichannel. It's, it's a lot of really interesting 

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aspects. You almost get to play this, head of customer acquisition, VP of marketing, 

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VP of growth kind of role where it's like, hey. I can do a lot within this channel because it's 

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a pay it's a payment method Yeah. Than rather than an inventory source. And I I think 

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that's a really great way of thinking about it, what you've highlighted. And, yeah, like, a lot of the 

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debunking the myths of coupon is really cool too that you talked about earlier around. Hey. There's a lot 

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of ways to reach the deal promotional space world in a way 

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that's valuable and not just like, oh, it's a race to the bottom. It's it's 

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cheapskates trying to get discounts on things and, like, undercut. It's there's a lot of 

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ways that it can be positioned right for some brands. Obviously, not all 

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brands, but there's a lot there to chew on. Yeah. And I think those newest solutions, it's a lot of them, 

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it's about the brands getting control of where those offers are, which audiences 

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am I happy to give an offer to and which audiences they might not. What's that experience? 

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And one of the observations that's made a previous brand was, 

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it was a it was a brand that did lots of couponing anyway, but it was, eighty 

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percent of the people that were in basket on our website left 

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to get a coupon code from another from you went to search the brand, coupon code, then came 

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back. Eighty percent of transactions. So then you think about 

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your customer journey about, okay, how much of that am I controlling? They go off. 

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Maybe they'll discover a competing brand, and, you know, you'll lose them altogether. But you're 

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losing them. They're going away. Coming back with a code. You're incurring the commission. So 

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and so as a brand, you don't want that to happen. You you wanna keep your your customer right there in the basket, 

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right where you want them. If there's somebody you want to give them an offer, then you want to be in 

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control of that. So there's the there's more and more solutions for for brands. 

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So, yeah, it'd be interesting to see what what happens within Coupon. I'm sure they'll they'll they'll evolve and 

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adapt. With the the great businesses and, you know, well funded. But, 

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yeah, it's an it's an interesting one for sure. Absolutely. I love I love where you're where you're at with that. 

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In in terms of how you've kind of taken on the management of a program for for 

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the ZIFs, for the totems of the world, like, maybe other things that you think 

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are exciting or interesting to maybe share to the audience around, like, how you might approach 

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it or maybe some other, like, learnings or observations you've had in 

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in, other programs that you've managed since you've had, you know, exposure to so 

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many in in the brand side and the agency side? Yeah. I just actually, the one that 

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comes to mind was when I was at at Totem, which is a student discount 

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platform, and for the most part, that is, you know, giving offers away with a with a code to 

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a verified audience. But we also did quite a lot of, content. So 

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we had an Instagram channel with, obviously, an audience of 

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students, and we would do video content for brands. So brands would say, we 

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wanna reach student audiences, and we'd obviously do the student discount bit, but we'd also do the social media 

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bit. And we started off doing quite glossy production videos. 

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They were amazing. They were quite expensive to do. They're great fun to to produce and and put out 

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there. But we didn't always get great engagement with it. And one time, our, 

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our social media manager, who sort of generally, you know, maintained our, our our channel, 

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We did something for a, a beauty retailer, and she just had a load of products on 

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her bed laid out as lipsticks and lip glosses and mascaras, and she just filmed it with her 

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phone. It was about a ten second clip, and it outperformed those glossy videos 

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by more than ten times. Easy. And, you know, some of those 

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things when you just realize it's like that that power of something that is, that feels more peer 

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to peer user generated, that authenticity when you put on on a social 

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channel was a real eye opener. I mean, that was a few years ago now, and maybe that's sort of, you 

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know, old hat thinking, but it was something that really sort of makes you think about, 

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you know, how can you well, when you're thinking about when you're investing in media, you know, that sort of 

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or the old way of thinking is this is an ad. It has to look amazing and slick and everything. But, actually, 

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something that's very off the cuff Felt like for that audience, it felt like it 

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was one of them. You know? That was, yeah, really interesting. It's something 

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that we try and encourage. How do you encourage an authentic, experience 

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between, you know, a social creator and your brand? It's gold when you can get it right. It's difficult 

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to get it right. Yeah. But, yeah, that was an interesting one. I think that's, 

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spot on. I mean, it's definitely hitting us across a number of things. We're seeing 

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the trend. We're seeing, like, the thought of, like, authenticity and ugly ads or 

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user generated content and making it very, like, a trusted voice and a like a friend or a 

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family member or, you know, someone with a degree of influence to kinda say, hey. Check this out. 

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This This is what I liked about this is what I didn't like about it. Having it be very 

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real is something that, you know, I think everyone's kind of caught on to and seen. So it's cool 

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to just see hear your validation on it. Know know that that's what you saw firsthand in the 

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data. It's good to validate. And Yeah. Surprisingly, surprised to see some brands that are kind 

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of still trying to catch that curve, and they're a little bit late to that wave. And 

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it's cool to hear that you you saw it first hand and witnessed it. Yeah. We definitely do. 

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And and I think as well, the way people are, discovering products and researching products, they're 

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not going to Google and searching keywords and discovering that the best ranked 

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articles and things like that. I mean, Google recent changes are causing people a lot of 

381
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:39,000
a lot of, problems. You know? So, you know, some affiliates are losing positions. Others are gaining 

382
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:43,600
positions. But, you know, I think when I think about my kids' age, they're they're 

383
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:48,600
probably I'll be amazed if they even use Google. They'll probably go to TikTok and, you 

384
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:53,600
know, search that way, you know, and or or YouTube. And that will be the the where they 

385
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:58,200
start their journey of, you know, which indoor cycling trainer should I buy or which 

386
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:03,300
guitar should I buy? You know? It's and is it gonna be the glossy production 

387
00:32:03,300 --> 00:32:08,300
thing that comes from the brand, or is it gonna be somebody who looks like them, talks like them, 

388
00:32:08,700 --> 00:32:13,500
saying, you know what? I've had this guitar for six months, and it's awesome. You know? Which one are they 

389
00:32:13,500 --> 00:32:18,500
gonna trust? So, yeah, it's definitely gonna be, an interesting one, and it's, obviously, it's a 

390
00:32:18,500 --> 00:32:23,300
fairly obvious trend. I'm sure everyone's aware of it, but it's it's interesting when you get into sort of the reasons 

391
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:28,300
why that is the the direction of it. I it'll be interesting to see how Google changes 

392
00:32:28,300 --> 00:32:33,300
and evolves, what sort of results it's done gonna start putting in. I think it's gonna 

393
00:32:33,300 --> 00:32:38,100
be quite different in five years. A lot more video, I imagine. I agree. 

394
00:32:38,300 --> 00:32:43,000
We we've had some really interesting conversations and seen it too 

395
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:48,000
around, like, TikToks taking up more and more, search share. 

396
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:53,300
On and a lot of people are starting their queries there. They're trying they're learning. They're getting educated. 

397
00:32:53,900 --> 00:32:58,900
Reddit's coming up a lot more. Maybe talking about the search landscape, what are you 

398
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:03,900
seeing in data? What are you seeing in learnings? Are there we reported some 

399
00:33:03,900 --> 00:33:08,900
interesting declines in some of the content sites. A lot of the high quality ones that are kind 

400
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:14,100
of hitting on what Google's looking for on the algorithm are are just fine and growing, but 

401
00:33:14,100 --> 00:33:18,900
certainly some are getting hit pretty hard. But what are you kind of observing in your landscape 

402
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:24,000
in terms of the Google SEO, paid search, content site 

403
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:29,000
impact? Is there anything that you're observing that's interesting, or what else are you kinda seeing in 

404
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:34,000
that world? Yeah. To to be honest with you, we're we're we're not really seeing anything. 

405
00:33:34,500 --> 00:33:39,400
The main reason at the moment so right now, this is our sort of the low season 

406
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:44,000
with Zwift. So the first time we'll probably see any differences 

407
00:33:44,300 --> 00:33:48,900
where we start hitting our peak period and we compare peak period this year versus last 

408
00:33:48,900 --> 00:33:53,600
year. So and because the the affiliate program is brand new as well, I've got no year on year 

409
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:58,400
data. So it's I'm quite quite blind at the moment to 

410
00:33:58,700 --> 00:34:03,700
what those, things are. Yeah. But most of the content sites that we work with, when you sort 

411
00:34:03,700 --> 00:34:08,300
of read about the changes in Google, they should, in theory, if anything, gain 

412
00:34:08,500 --> 00:34:13,400
share in theory, but we we know that the theory doesn't always match with with what happens out 

413
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:18,300
there. So it's it's a conversation we're constantly having with the partners because, you know, I'm 

414
00:34:18,300 --> 00:34:23,300
having to plan for q four right now and knowing that search landscape is 

415
00:34:23,300 --> 00:34:28,200
evolving all of the time. So, normally, when you like to book media and, you know, what's 

416
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:33,000
my guaranteed page views, it's suddenly become very difficult because the rug could get 

417
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:37,600
pulled from an algorithm update. So it's Yeah. It's something that we're 

418
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:43,100
trying to monitor, but I what I don't have is that sort of the the history of the data. I 

419
00:34:43,100 --> 00:34:48,000
can say, yeah, year on year on year, it's this how it's looking. So it's a it's a tricky one 

420
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:52,800
for me. Yeah. Totally. And I think, like, even brands that have that historical 

421
00:34:52,900 --> 00:34:57,800
knowledge are having a hard time in this vastly changing market, like benchmarking and 

422
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:02,600
thinking about, okay. Are we comparing it to twenty nineteen? Are we comparing it to twenty twenty one? 

423
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:07,400
Like, things are changing drastically. The last few years have been very behaved differently. 

424
00:35:07,500 --> 00:35:12,500
So even those with some of that data, you know, not to, like, be overly optimistic about 

425
00:35:12,500 --> 00:35:17,100
your situation, but in some ways, you might be at an advantage in some ways with lack of 

426
00:35:17,100 --> 00:35:22,000
data. Obviously, it's better to have some something to go off of. I 

427
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:27,000
also like what you said about the you're kind of always if you if you step back and think about what 

428
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:31,900
we're trying to do, these trends are always coming in. Right? And if you're managing 

429
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:37,000
Meta or TikTok or Google, you get to kinda stay in that lane and think about all 

430
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:42,000
the changes that are happening in that channel, which is often the case of a brand. Yeah. With 

431
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:46,600
affiliate, going back to the positives that we talked about, I feel like 

432
00:35:46,900 --> 00:35:51,900
there's a lot there's so many more signals because you have to think about the s curve of 

433
00:35:51,900 --> 00:35:56,800
each individual business model. You have to think about the s curve of all of those channels that are working. 

434
00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:00,800
So if Google's seeing gains or a hit in a particular 

435
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:06,300
category, that's impacting, you know, affiliate. If perhaps a 

436
00:36:06,300 --> 00:36:11,200
particular loyalty vertical is getting hit or there's competitors coming 

437
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:16,000
into that space, that's impacting the ebb and flow of the diversity and the volume of your 

438
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:20,800
affiliate program. We're seeing, like, you know, Reddit Reddit strikes a deal with Google. That's helping out, 

439
00:36:21,300 --> 00:36:26,100
with certain affiliate partners or maybe taking away. So it's this interesting con you know, for 

440
00:36:26,100 --> 00:36:31,100
people coming into this, either marketers or not, you know, or heavy performance marketers, they get it. 

441
00:36:31,100 --> 00:36:36,100
But, like, I think there's a there's actually in some ways, it's a sim it can be simpler, 

442
00:36:36,100 --> 00:36:40,900
but there's also a lot of variables going on within affiliate channel, especially as it matures and 

443
00:36:40,900 --> 00:36:45,900
gets that volume. I don't know if you feel that way too, but I think it's really interesting. Yeah. Because, I mean, when you're buying 

444
00:36:45,900 --> 00:36:50,800
media or you're trying to plan like, I I am right now planning for q four, which is our peak and, 

445
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:55,500
obviously, Black Friday, a lot of people in the industry, they rely on historic trends and 

446
00:36:55,500 --> 00:37:00,200
data to inform, okay. Well, this worked last year, so I'll invest in it this year. 

447
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:05,200
But, you know, it might be that something that worked well last year is just gonna get is just gonna 

448
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:10,000
flop. So, I mean, you know, newspapers that were using, coupons that were 

449
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:14,600
having a white label solution, and offering that, those have been hit by Google. 

450
00:37:14,700 --> 00:37:19,500
So they're not gonna get the same levels of traffic that they were this time last year. So 

451
00:37:19,500 --> 00:37:24,500
it's it's really important that when affiliate managers or planners or buyers, when they're 

452
00:37:24,500 --> 00:37:29,500
looking at the historic trends, is make sure that you're looking at these these other, you know, 

453
00:37:29,700 --> 00:37:34,400
changes in the industry. You know, where does your where does your publisher get their traffic from? 

454
00:37:34,900 --> 00:37:39,800
And if they're beholden to to Meta or to to Google and things like that, what's 

455
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:44,500
going on there? Because you again, the the rug could get pulled from from you. So it's, 

456
00:37:45,300 --> 00:37:49,900
yeah, you gotta be Yeah. Yes, looking back because sometimes historic data can be 

457
00:37:49,900 --> 00:37:54,800
reliable, but you you've gotta be looking forward as well and say, oh, maybe the 

458
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:59,600
variables are gonna change. Yeah. It's diversification's the name of the game. It's it 

459
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:04,400
gets it gets talked about a lot. It's an easy thing to say. And, obviously, 

460
00:38:04,500 --> 00:38:09,500
the work and effort and planning and measurement of it is is a whole another 

461
00:38:09,500 --> 00:38:14,000
story, and it's not that easy. You know it better than anyone having managed so many great 

462
00:38:14,300 --> 00:38:19,000
great programs in your career. Speaking of your career, what was a 

463
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:23,900
sliding door moment for you where it was kinda like, hey. Could go one way. You took another path. 

464
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:29,000
Kind of learnings from that. Yeah. I think probably it was when I look back, I 

465
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:33,900
think getting to work on the eBay program was probably the the big one for me, and I very nearly 

466
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:38,600
screwed that up. So it was, when I started ROI, I 

467
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:43,500
was running we had, so it was just before the financial crash of two thousand eight. So we 

468
00:38:43,500 --> 00:38:48,100
had, subprime loans clients. Very lucrative. 

469
00:38:49,100 --> 00:38:53,800
So but it's very, very low tech. There was no product feeds or APIs. It was very 

470
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:58,500
much, you know, we we sometimes had people going door to door and then clicking on 

471
00:38:58,500 --> 00:39:03,100
affiliate link and filling the details out on behalf of somebody at the door. It was that low 

472
00:39:03,100 --> 00:39:08,100
tech, but very lucrative. And then two thousand eight happened. That entire industry just just 

473
00:39:08,100 --> 00:39:13,000
vanished, really. But it was at this the same year that ROI won the eBay account. 

474
00:39:13,900 --> 00:39:18,800
So there was an opportunity where I was I think I somebody left the 

475
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:23,800
eBay team, and they were quite junior, and I was a bit more senior. So the company said, we're looking for someone else to 

476
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:28,800
go into that team. And I was like, well, I I don't really wanna go down a level, so I didn't apply for it. And 

477
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:33,600
then my boss pulled me into a room and said, hey, Rich. Have you thought about this? And I was like, well, 

478
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:38,400
I'd love to. But then, anyway, he said, actually, I put on the email that current seniority 

479
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:43,300
would be respected, so, you know, you wouldn't drop a level. So I missed that sentence from the 

480
00:39:43,300 --> 00:39:48,200
email. Like and if you haven't sort of call me into a room and say, you know, I think you 

481
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:53,000
should go for this. I I could have missed out on it. And what I learned 

482
00:39:53,300 --> 00:39:58,100
on on, you know, managing the eBay partner network and the experiences I had, 

483
00:39:58,700 --> 00:40:03,300
referring to earlier, you know, first time working on something that was outside of the 

484
00:40:03,300 --> 00:40:08,200
UK. So getting to travel into Europe and, you know, spending time in Zurich, and you meet people 

485
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:13,100
from all over the world. You know, the conversation had with, mentioned about you 

486
00:40:13,100 --> 00:40:17,900
know, someone explained, well, in Italy, this is how it works. And in Spain, this is how it works. And in Germany, 

487
00:40:18,900 --> 00:40:23,900
getting to spend time with, you know, you guys in camp from over from the US as well. And, you know, 

488
00:40:23,900 --> 00:40:28,900
it was just, from my initial year or two, just working 

489
00:40:28,900 --> 00:40:33,700
on subprime finance loans and leads to then go into eBay, and we're learning 

490
00:40:33,700 --> 00:40:38,500
the APIs. And I don't know if you remember the, quality click 

491
00:40:38,500 --> 00:40:43,300
pricing and all of that and, you know, all of the commercials that sort of, like All too well. Yeah. 

492
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:47,600
You probably sell PTSD about it, but it was fascinating stuff. And it was 

493
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:53,300
so yeah. It was my Oh, man. Yeah. And it was it was amazing. And 

494
00:40:53,300 --> 00:40:58,100
so it took me you know, I think traveled into Europe, traveled to the US, met so 

495
00:40:58,100 --> 00:41:03,100
many people, and that was the real foundation, I think, of the the career that I've built. And as 

496
00:41:03,100 --> 00:41:08,100
I said, I I very nearly, for the sake of not properly reading an email, could 

497
00:41:08,100 --> 00:41:12,700
have missed out. And thank you for to to my boss at the time for 

498
00:41:13,100 --> 00:41:18,000
for pulling me into the room and and, looking to arrive at your problem. What a great lesson. 

499
00:41:18,300 --> 00:41:23,100
What a great story. I'm sure so mutually beneficial that he was so 

500
00:41:23,100 --> 00:41:27,800
helpful in kind of shedding light on it for you and and obviously an open a door opener and 

501
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:32,600
a a sliding door moment in your career that that went so well. I I couldn't agree more, 

502
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:37,600
man. I I it opened up so many the world of, like, high rigor 

503
00:41:37,700 --> 00:41:42,500
Silicon Valley, multichannel marketing. Like, it was I 

504
00:41:42,500 --> 00:41:47,400
probably said it it too many times. People may eye roll, but, like, the the level of quality talent 

505
00:41:47,500 --> 00:41:52,500
coming out of that group at the time when it was happening was really second to none. I'm 

506
00:41:52,500 --> 00:41:57,200
just very fortunate. And I think like you, it really opened my world up in many 

507
00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:02,000
ways and was such an amazing learning experience. So it was cool. And then, heck, here we are 

508
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:06,800
talking today because I I I got to meet you through that experience. So, Yeah. I made some 

509
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:11,800
great connections. Yeah. Is there a, you know, book or a resource that 

510
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:16,600
you would point for folks that that maybe was really impactful on you in a positive way 

511
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:21,200
or, you know, change your thinking on a topic? Yeah. That's what I tell you. I'm 

512
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:26,200
probably not. I'm not one of these people that sort of reads a lot of I don't do a lot 

513
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:30,800
of work stuff outside work. Maybe I need to do it more. So I I I That's 

514
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:35,500
good. Yeah. So most of the time, outside work, it's football and guitars 

515
00:42:35,500 --> 00:42:40,500
and all that sort of stuff. But there was, one topic that was, obviously, is really 

516
00:42:40,500 --> 00:42:45,400
big at the moment. It's AI. And I'm not one of these people that jumps onto these 

517
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:50,300
things and, you know, I'm not like an AI bro or anything like that. And I'm always a little bit 

518
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:55,200
skeptical, you know, when people say AI is gonna take over affiliates. I was thinking, well, is it gonna be 

519
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:59,700
negotiating deals? Is it gonna be recruiting? Like, what is it gonna do? 

520
00:43:00,100 --> 00:43:04,800
And it was a, podcast. I think it was an Awin podcast. They had a guest on it, 

521
00:43:04,900 --> 00:43:09,900
Rob Beresford, who runs, Affiliate dot AI. But he was explaining about 

522
00:43:09,900 --> 00:43:14,800
actually, it's more about that productivity thing. So, you know, this sort of thing. He said, imagine 

523
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:20,300
if you the reporting, the amount of data that exists, you know, with an affiliate program that is 

524
00:43:20,300 --> 00:43:25,200
just laying there, not being accessed to by people because it's just too difficult or time 

525
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:29,900
consuming. You know? And the amount of time I spent downloading spreadsheets 

526
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:35,200
from one from an affiliate network, from Google Analytics, trying to 

527
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:40,200
smush it all together, fiddling around with the date formats that don't match up, and and then trying to 

528
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:44,700
kind of analyze what's coming into the website and then what's coming after the transaction. 

529
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:50,300
And if you could have all of that data fed into, you know, sort of an AI 

530
00:43:50,300 --> 00:43:55,200
computer sort of thing and just ask it prompts as you would in chat g GPT. You 

531
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:59,900
know? And the amount of time that it would save and what that would do, and it would take away that sort of, 

532
00:44:00,300 --> 00:44:05,300
the skill of having to learn Excel and, you know, the time it takes to do all of 

533
00:44:05,300 --> 00:44:10,300
that. And it really just got me thinking about this. That will really, really help a 

534
00:44:10,300 --> 00:44:15,000
lot of people in this industry, I think, being able to have access to data with just 

535
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:20,000
real word prompts. You know, tell me what's the the if you're a publisher, what's the most 

536
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:24,900
lucrative journey on our website? And like a chat GPT experience, 

537
00:44:24,900 --> 00:44:29,900
you can say, right. It can spit it all out for you rather than going have to download multiple 

538
00:44:29,900 --> 00:44:34,800
spreadsheets and you know? So I think it's got the power to really, remove a lot of 

539
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:39,700
barriers to good data, the barriers being skill set, barrier being 

540
00:44:39,700 --> 00:44:44,700
time, and then with that information being able to do something really meaningful with it. So it sort of really made me 

541
00:44:44,700 --> 00:44:49,300
think very differently about is this AI thing just a bit of fad that people are just 

542
00:44:49,300 --> 00:44:54,300
gonna, you know, rave about? But, actually, how is it, you know, in the real world gonna 

543
00:44:54,300 --> 00:44:58,800
help us? So, yeah, that was, really got me thinking about it. And, 

544
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:03,800
yeah, I'm still sort of it's still very early days for that sort of thing. I haven't got to play with 

545
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:08,800
anything like that yet, but it really did get me thinking, wow. That could be 

546
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:13,700
really powerful. I love that. I've heard great things. I think our team is kind of doing some collaboration 

547
00:45:13,900 --> 00:45:18,900
with them currently, And, I I love that one. I think there's a lot more to do there, and I 

548
00:45:18,900 --> 00:45:23,800
think some of the things they're coming out with is it's material change. It's, it's not. 

549
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:28,800
That we could we do a whole episode on on that topic, I think, because there's a lot there, and I'm 

550
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:33,800
I'm really glad you brought it up. So I think it's how how can we do our jobs better rather than how can our 

551
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:38,600
jobs be replaced. I think that's the the key. Exactly. I think it's augmentation. 

552
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:43,700
I think it's efficiency. I think, you know, I think it's, yeah, lots to talk 

553
00:45:43,700 --> 00:45:48,700
about there, and and definitely we could go way deep on that. We probably should at one point. I 

554
00:45:48,700 --> 00:45:53,600
love it. Just rounding out, Richard, it's been a pleasure, man. I know you've you've had some really 

555
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:58,500
great learnings in your career. You've you've shared some great history and story and and 

556
00:45:58,500 --> 00:46:03,400
thoughts of how you think about the industry and affiliate marketing and doing it the right way. I think you've had a 

557
00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:08,400
there's a humility and a thoughtfulness and a craft about how you approach affiliate marketing that I 

558
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:13,200
wanna call out. And I I think that that comes through with how you operate and how you speak about it and 

559
00:46:13,300 --> 00:46:18,300
just the way you work. And you've always been one to just get things done, and I think that's something that to make 

560
00:46:18,300 --> 00:46:23,100
sure people are aware of. You have a strategy. You have an experience, but you're, there's a no 

561
00:46:23,500 --> 00:46:28,300
frills, respect about how you approach the work, which I I think is important to call out for everyone. 

562
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:33,400
In kind of rounding out the pod and and as we talk about, you know, got through some of the learnings and 

563
00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:38,200
the always be testing theme, obviously. But, you know, what what's a fun, silly fact that maybe 

564
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:43,000
people don't know about you? You kinda touched on, you know, full of football guitars, but 

565
00:46:43,100 --> 00:46:48,100
love to hear just what do you wanna share with the audience about you? Yeah. I was thinking about this one. I 

566
00:46:48,100 --> 00:46:53,100
spent probably probably most people know I play guitar because they're they're always the background of my my thing. 

567
00:46:53,100 --> 00:46:58,100
But, yeah, I don't know whether it's fun or silly, but I'm a a bit of a space geek. 

568
00:46:58,500 --> 00:47:03,300
I love, learning about space, the cosmos, the universe, all that sort of thing. I find that 

569
00:47:03,300 --> 00:47:08,300
absolutely fascinating. I've always got, some sort of going to sleep at 

570
00:47:08,300 --> 00:47:13,300
night. I've got a space documentary on. Just just love it. Just thinking about how 

571
00:47:13,300 --> 00:47:18,100
planets were formed. That's so cool. Is the universe infinite? All that sort of thing. 

572
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:23,400
I just yeah. Absolutely. I can't get enough of it. I love that, man. That's 

573
00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:28,400
very cool. That can get pretty fascinating as you dive into it, and and I 

574
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:33,300
love to, to learn and hear that that's something that you're into. Very cool. 

575
00:47:33,300 --> 00:47:38,200
Any space fact that you wanna drop on us or anything about space in particular that 

576
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:43,100
you found fascinating in your learnings or the documentaries you've had? Any recommendations? Yeah. 

577
00:47:43,100 --> 00:47:47,400
There's one. It's sort of a space fact, but it's sort of a mathematics one as well. And it's the, 

578
00:47:48,100 --> 00:47:52,600
the implications of infinity. So you say, is the universe infinite? 

579
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:57,600
And mathematically, it's saying that, right, somewhere if the universe is 

580
00:47:57,600 --> 00:48:02,600
infinite, that there is somebody exact a complete replica of me and 

581
00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:06,600
you having this conversation out there somewhere, and that's a mathematical 

582
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:12,200
fact of infinity. Because if if you think about the infinite monkey theorem, 

583
00:48:12,700 --> 00:48:17,500
you've got twenty six letters of the alphabet, and an infinite number of monkeys are gonna 

584
00:48:17,500 --> 00:48:22,200
type out the works of Shakespeare. Each one of those letters is like an an 

585
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:26,600
element on the periodic table. So your body is just an an assembly 

586
00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:32,500
of atoms and an an element. So if the universe is inflow in 

587
00:48:32,700 --> 00:48:37,700
infinite, eventually, that will be replicated. And that is really mind blowing fat, and it is 

588
00:48:37,700 --> 00:48:42,600
scientific. But yeah. I think we have the perfect GIF when we post this 

589
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:47,500
episode. We're gonna have the GIF of the guy's head just, you know, exploding with the space that 

590
00:48:47,500 --> 00:48:52,500
just I think I had this is such a weird overshare, but, 

591
00:48:52,500 --> 00:48:57,300
like, as a kid, I remember being about ten and, like, you're kind of 

592
00:48:57,300 --> 00:49:02,300
going through life and thinking about what does it mean and thinking about the universe. And have 

593
00:49:02,300 --> 00:49:07,200
you ever had this where you're, like, thinking about how far it stretches and how vast it 

594
00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:12,200
is and it almost sends you into a little bit of a spinning loop in your brain. And it's 

595
00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:17,000
it's actually a bit frightening because you think I can't really describe it. I'm not gonna be able to 

596
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:22,000
put words to the feeling and the mix of emotion and brain thought that comes up. 

597
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:26,900
But I remember that that feeling of, holy cow, what if it is ever ending? Or what 

598
00:49:26,900 --> 00:49:31,900
if it ends? And it's like this crazy epiphany that your mind starts to 

599
00:49:31,900 --> 00:49:36,900
go down this rabbit hole and you're just like, wait. What? It's very difficult for a human brain 

600
00:49:36,900 --> 00:49:41,900
to sometimes wrap your head around, but I think it's so cool that you you've kind of gone there 

601
00:49:41,900 --> 00:49:46,700
and you've shared that today. That's that's a it's a it's a weird thing. It's cool. Yeah. It's definitely one of those things 

602
00:49:46,700 --> 00:49:51,600
that if you're like me when you're trying to get to sleep and your brain's racing with all of, 

603
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:56,600
you know, work stuff, family stuff, or, you know, all of the jobs and chores you haven't done, And 

604
00:49:56,600 --> 00:50:01,600
then you start thinking of pondering those things, and it just kind of because it's such 

605
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:06,200
a vast subject that your brain can't really think about, oh, I need to mow the lawn. 

606
00:50:06,500 --> 00:50:11,300
So it does actually help me sleep just pondering these sorts of things. So it's quite a good kind 

607
00:50:11,300 --> 00:50:16,300
of, yeah, mental well-being kind of thing. I actually think that's that's awesome. 

608
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:21,200
I came across the a tweet or something recently that had something similar. I think as we get into 

609
00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:26,200
adult life and all the stressors of day to day and all the BS that comes out 

610
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:31,100
of us, it was, if I find it, I'll share it with you. But it's like, you know, 

611
00:50:31,100 --> 00:50:36,100
we're a rock going across the galaxy and universe at 

612
00:50:36,100 --> 00:50:41,100
x speed, and you're worried about this over here. It's it's something along those 

613
00:50:41,100 --> 00:50:45,800
lines, and I think it kinda does A little perspective sort of thing. Could put you at peace. Yeah. A little 

614
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:50,800
perspective. What's, is there any fun little thing that you've maybe purchased recently 

615
00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:55,800
that you can't live without that you wanna share with the audience? Well, I've had it for a couple of years, actually. 

616
00:50:55,800 --> 00:51:00,600
But, if you're in a video, I'll show it to you. But basically, it is it is a 

617
00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:05,500
desktop guitar amp, which is beautiful. Oh, yeah. 

618
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:10,800
It is very it's awesome looking. Yeah. And it's so perfect for my 

619
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:15,800
exact use case. So you don't want a big guitar amp in a very small room with a 

620
00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:20,500
family. So you want something that's not too loud, super high quality, but it's also a 

621
00:51:20,500 --> 00:51:25,400
Bluetooth speaker. So it I can do everything with this. So all day, I 

622
00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:30,200
have this set up there with the music going with Alexa 

623
00:51:30,300 --> 00:51:35,300
Alexa plugged into it, got the guitar plugged into it. I'm not disturbing the family too 

624
00:51:35,300 --> 00:51:40,300
much if I'm rocking out with the guitar. But it's just one of those products 

625
00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:45,400
I'm just bought, and and it looks so nice that we actually decorated this room to complement it. 

626
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:51,200
So if people are just listening, it's a kind of it's a it's a small unit Bluetooth 

627
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:56,100
speaker. It's kinda like metal retro looking and a cream. And, yeah, we've got sort of 

628
00:51:56,100 --> 00:52:01,000
copper tones and blue, and it just it looks amazing in the office. And it just it's just one 

629
00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:05,900
of those products that I just like every time I look at it, I think, that's the perfect thing 

630
00:52:05,900 --> 00:52:10,700
for what I Yeah. Needed. It does everything, and it looks looks awesome. Pretty clean, pretty minimal, 

631
00:52:10,700 --> 00:52:15,600
pretty pretty attractive, piece, and it functions well. It's awesome. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, so 

632
00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:20,500
much things with the musical equipment. It's cables and things all over the place getting 

633
00:52:20,500 --> 00:52:25,500
dusty and stuff, which I could do with the dust, actually. What's the brand? It's a Yamaha. 

634
00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:30,700
The so it's called a Yamaha THR. Cool. Yeah. They're they're definitely good 

635
00:52:30,700 --> 00:52:35,400
if you're if you play guitar. I think it'll also play you can play bass through it as well, I 

636
00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:40,100
think. But it's just a great thing to have and, you 

637
00:52:40,100 --> 00:52:45,000
know, For the for the rock stars out there in the audience. And 

638
00:52:45,200 --> 00:52:50,100
I you know what? I researched it on social channels and YouTube, and 

639
00:52:50,100 --> 00:52:55,100
I listened to all the influencers talking about it. And I probably clicked one of their links when I bought it. There you go. 

640
00:52:55,400 --> 00:53:00,300
Beautiful. It's all happening. Richard, dude, you're the man. I can't I need to hear you rock out 

641
00:53:00,300 --> 00:53:05,200
on the guitar one of these days. I'm sure we'll get to do that maybe in London or maybe in somewhere in the 

642
00:53:05,200 --> 00:53:10,100
UK. Yeah. But just wanna thank you again. You've got a wealth of knowledge. We've covered 

643
00:53:10,100 --> 00:53:15,000
a ton of ground. For folks that wanna stay in touch with you and follow you, where where is the 

644
00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:19,800
best way to connect? I'm probably on LinkedIn. I'll be honest. I don't put out a lot of stuff on LinkedIn 

645
00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:24,500
myself, but, I'm more of a lurker, which is like, I'll comment on other people's 

646
00:53:24,500 --> 00:53:29,300
posts. But, yeah, LinkedIn probably the the best place. And, yeah, I 

647
00:53:29,300 --> 00:53:34,200
always I always happy to connect with people, even if it's not necessarily an immediate 

648
00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:39,200
opportunity or sale that needs to be done. It's just great to to connect because things change, 

649
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:44,100
and you never know. But, yeah, happy to hear from anyone. But, yeah, we can. One hundred percent. Always 

650
00:53:44,100 --> 00:53:49,100
a pleasure, Richard. It's great to talk to you, and, I'm so happy to have you on. Thank you so much, 

651
00:53:49,100 --> 00:53:54,100
and have an awesome evening. Yeah. Great. Thank you too for the opportunity. And, yeah, we'll speak soon, 

652
00:53:54,100 --> 00:53:55,500
Ty. Sounds good.