00:00:00:00 - 00:00:08:52 00:00:09:21 - 00:00:30:52 Unknown Hello everyone, and welcome to this episode. Now, by the time this comes out. Hopefully the robots haven't taken over the world, but it is 2026 baby. And we're all talking about AI. I know I am that insufferable person that won't shut up about it. So if you do not want to watch this episode and talk about technology and architecture, I understand. 00:00:30:54 - 00:00:49:35 Unknown Click away now. But if you do, then I've got a great show for you here. Back when I was a student, before all this kicked off, I used to use freely S Max and V-Ray and I used to love it. And that piece of software was made by a company, and I think there was called the Chaos Engine. 00:00:49:35 - 00:01:15:14 Unknown Right? That's what I remember. However, I've got someone that actually works within the Chaos Engine world stratosphere, but more than that has been brought into chaos because they've developed amazing technology and architecture and is on the fringe, the bleeding edge of what people are actually doing. So that is who we want to speak to because I want to learn. 00:01:15:28 - 00:01:41:01 Unknown So strap yourself in and we'll go. And on that note, I may as well introduce the fantastic Bill. Bill, how are you, sir? Are you okay? Doing great. Thanks, Stephen. It's great. Appreciate it. Well, we're here, and the Elon hasn't put the data centers into space just yet, so we've got that moment in time. Bill, I probably butchered the entrance. 00:01:41:02 - 00:01:57:50 Unknown As you know, I'm excited by technology. But first of all, tell me about yourself. Bell. How did you get to this journey, your company, all that stuff. And then we can talk about what you're working on now. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. I'm not sure how much longer we have until Elon gets those data centers on the moon, but we'll see. 00:01:57:54 - 00:02:19:35 Unknown Background is in architecture, so actually not a software guy. Not a consultant guy. Worked in architecture for just under a decade doing healthcare design. Gravitated to the design technology side. And then I was in what I call my BIM bubble. I was working at a big architecture firm, and I thought, you know, everybody's doing BIM, everyone's doing computational design. 00:02:19:40 - 00:02:49:23 Unknown And then I moved out to Colorado, and I was working as a manager out there, and I realized not everyone is using BIM or doing computational design. And so I saw an opportunity and I started a little startup company called Evolve Lab. And that was in 2015. And then we started building products. Shortly after that products, I would have wanted things that converted, you know, SketchUp to Revit or Revit to Rhino, and then started automating construction drawings and then AI came out. 00:02:49:23 - 00:03:16:11 Unknown So then we gravitated to that and started building some different AI apps. And then in 2015, we got acquired by chaos who makes V-Ray and Inscape. So that is my background. Very very cool. Yeah. So I was using Chaos and V-Ray circa 2010, 2012. So I'm really, really interested to hear about that. But just before we go on, so you were a BIM person there. 00:03:16:11 - 00:03:37:18 Unknown So were you. BIM called a mac. So you were knee deep in the Revit and all that world. You understand the BIM stuff and you branched out. That's pretty cool right? What made you before we go into it. Like jump away from like as you said the mainstream architecture being a BIM. Like was it just that you had an idea like what what what made you do that jump? 00:03:37:18 - 00:03:54:06 Unknown First of all, I just I guess I gravitated to it. Like I really geeked out about the design tech. I liked kind of how, you know, the car was made, if you will. What happens under the hood? And, but I also liked architecture, so I kind of like the cross-section of technology. But in, you know, really what it was for me. 00:03:54:06 - 00:04:17:18 Unknown In 2011, I attended a conference in Lincoln, Nebraska called parametric. And this whole idea of like using, parametric components to drive architecture I fell in love with. And so that was kind of the genesis of like where it really took off for me. And then from there, just figuring out like, how you could leverage it further, you know, using Dynamo and Grasshopper and all those cool tools. 00:04:17:18 - 00:04:37:21 Unknown So that was kind of the starting point, I guess. I took the drug and never went back to you. So you will laugh, but just for context, because so when I was practicing architecture, one of my best friends at the time, he was a BIM coordinator manager, and he was either I was going to go down that route where you went or I just fell into recruitment. 00:04:37:21 - 00:04:56:26 Unknown So I think I went the wrong way, but I can't I can't go back. But maybe what can be cool is you're kind of guiding me through it a little bit. So what I remember of chaos is it was like this really, really like industry grade, freely visualization tool. But there was a lot of like, you had to understand the physics. 00:04:56:26 - 00:05:14:52 Unknown You have to understand that a lot of different things. Whereas, you know, I'm seeing all these different products now which have really evolved. And I can see that you mentioned as well, and we've got some candy here and I'm going to go through it, but you were really interested in that generative visualization. And that's changed a lot over the time. 00:05:14:52 - 00:05:35:47 Unknown So maybe you can tell me a little bit about the changes. And then what I'll do is I'll click through a few things as you're as we're talking. And then and then we can talk about the stuff that we're seeing, you know, so like going from the old days when I was there bringing me up to speed and then we can talk about the new shizzle that you're working on now. 00:05:35:54 - 00:05:53:16 Unknown You know, I love it. Yeah, I think that's good. So just like you like my background was using V-Ray 3ds Max and to produce a lot of the renderings that we see here, like you had to understand, like ambient inclusion and all the different lighting and how to apply the materials. And it was it was a pretty complex process and you had to be a specialist. 00:05:53:16 - 00:06:11:18 Unknown I remember there was one guy on our floor at the architecture firm and his name was John, and if you wanted a rendering, you went to John. He was he was the rendering guy. And if he was busy that week, you had to wait till the next week, you know. And that's how it was. And I met, Vlado, who's actually the V and V Ray, just so you know. 00:06:11:18 - 00:06:46:57 Unknown So he's kind of a superstar at chaos because he was like the OG. Like the guy that first started it and then, you know, came out and Inscape changed everything. It kind of democratized this whole process where you didn't need to understand all the science between of how to make an image. You could just, you know, open up this window inside Revit or Rhino, and then you get this, you know, good enough rendering that you could show to a client and then, you know, inter show art various which is on the screen now is it leverages AI so that even further democratizes it where now you just you bring in like a substrate, 00:06:46:57 - 00:07:07:30 Unknown you prompt and then you don't even need to apply the materials. You don't need to set up your scene. You get like a beautiful, you know, rendering. So the democratization of visualization has even, you know, come further now with the advent of AI, for sure. Very, very cool. Now, guys, I did warn Bell. Obviously, you know how clunky I am. 00:07:07:30 - 00:07:30:21 Unknown So Bell's going to tell me if I drive the computer in the wrong way as we're going, but I mean, they're absolutely beautiful. And you touched upon ambient occlusion like I had a book back then, Bill, of like, The Physics of Light and all this stuff. And it was just so difficult. It was like another job, you know, at the time I felt like, hang on, I could study architecture and now I have to be a physicist, you know what I mean? 00:07:30:23 - 00:07:47:38 Unknown Like, and so it's come along a lot way. I mean, I hear of other products as well. What I mean is I'm just seeing stuff now that plugs into Revit, plugs into all that stuff. Has that been one of the drivers over time? To just make it a lot easier for an architect? Doesn't need to understand all this stuff 100%. 00:07:47:38 - 00:08:05:57 Unknown And then your point of like plugging it into Revit. One of the things we did that was different about our AI rendering tools that we did have a plugin for Revit, Rhino SketchUp, because the whole point was, is like, let's go where the designers are like that way you don't have to get a screenshot, open up a web portal, upload your image render and then bring that back. 00:08:05:59 - 00:08:23:52 Unknown It's like, no, like let's just do it directly there. So I think that is something that is really important that I would have wanted, you know, when I was working in architecture to be able to have that as well. Yeah. No. Fair enough. And even here. So one of the images that you provided, which is really cool, is looking at this, which is like a technical drawing. 00:08:23:52 - 00:08:39:45 Unknown And then I always used to find that, especially back in the old days, you'd have the CAD program, right, or whatever. Because this was I was pre riveting coming in. And then you almost have another 3D model which was generated from that. And then you had to bring things in and it was a bloody nightmare. Excuse my language. 00:08:39:47 - 00:08:55:30 Unknown Do you know what I mean? And then you and then in the early days you bring in a Revit model and they would have like a bazillion like poly whatevers. And it was this clunky thing and it was a nightmare. But I can see here this looks quite technical but you kind of giving me the look of there. 00:08:55:30 - 00:09:14:09 Unknown So again things are a lot faster, smoother and integrated. Tell me about what I'm looking for and your thoughts on all that CAD drawings versus visualizations. Sexy images for sure. Yeah. And I mean, I've old enough to I was part of the CAD area. I wasn't old enough to do the hand drawings. You know, I think I graduated around 2004. 00:09:14:09 - 00:09:37:26 Unknown So AutoCAD was still pretty normal then. And then you know we transitioned to Revit or BIM you know, but Revit is kind of the monopoly as we as we talked about before the show. And so basically what we're looking at now is, you know being able to automate construction drawings with AI. And I like to there's this quote from Sam Altman who makes chat. 00:09:37:30 - 00:09:57:16 Unknown And he's part of the OpenAI club. And he says AI will go in this counterintuitive order and including myself, like, I thought, you know, it's going to be self-driving semi trucks and accounting and all of that kind of stuff. But he goes, it's going to go in this counterintuitive order. Creative fields first write architecture, graphic design, that kind of stuff. 00:09:57:21 - 00:10:20:16 Unknown And then it's going to be cognitive labor next, which is your construction drawings. All right. And then physical labor lasts. Now that's when the humanoid robots enter the construction field and kill us all. So we'll see what happens on that side. But that's like the last phase of our existence. I'm halfway kidding. But when you have that, that is where we have this progression going from creative industry, cognitive labor, physical labor. 00:10:20:16 - 00:10:40:32 Unknown And so that we're kind of in this middle layer now where and you can see the, the seeds starting with the, the physical labor last. But that's kind of where we're at, I think in this time scale of AI, if you will. Yeah. Well, I'd love to flesh that out a bit because so in my industry I use it or in my business. 00:10:40:32 - 00:11:00:59 Unknown So I use it a lot for data admin, as you said, the boring stuff. But it's so fantastic because I remember spending years in architecture on deadlines, trying to get the the GIA which was like the the net area inside your naked and you're counting up a thing bill and you get it bloody wrong. So for me stuff like that and automation seem amazing. 00:11:01:09 - 00:11:25:42 Unknown But what I'd like to do for you to hear from you is I at the same time, maybe I'm a little bit cynical or naive, but I always feel like architecture. On one hand, we're at the forefront of technology, but then at the same time, it takes so long to get adopted on certain things. Like, I know many companies which are still like not on Reddit in the UK are not going to be more taking a long time to adapt. 00:11:25:42 - 00:11:44:30 Unknown So I'm kind of conflicted. I've seen how long these things. So on one hand we're really progressive building stuff that people have never seen. But on the other hand, especially as, you know, like the resistance even to go into BIM was so big in architecture. How do you feel about all that I've just said, I totally agree. 00:11:44:30 - 00:12:05:23 Unknown I think that what you see is like, we go to these conferences and, you know, you see the Foster and partners and the Gensler and the whole case and you're like, oh my gosh, like everyone's doing this stuff. And then you go to like these medium and small, it's usually the small to medium sized firms that lag behind just a little bit because they traditionally have not had the budget or the resources to do that. 00:12:05:23 - 00:12:28:40 Unknown Now that's changing with vibe coding, by the way. But I do think that there is this, this laggard, if you see that that chasm that exists from like early adopters to the majority to you have the whole industry and then you'll have some lagers. These are the guys that are still doing like hand drafting. And so there is this kind of gradation, if you will, with like technology adoption at firms. 00:12:28:47 - 00:12:52:28 Unknown But with the advent of AI and vibe coding, like that's changing quite a bit. Like you don't need, you know, a huge R&D budget and ten developers, you could just pull up, you know, Cursor or Claude and then you can, you know, build out an app for yourself. So I do think we'll see a drastic change in that, but we'll still probably see, people that are resistance to change in because our industry at large is resistant to change. 00:12:52:38 - 00:13:17:02 Unknown It'll it'll take some time. Okay. Cool it it I kind of feel like we're in the perfect storm of all that. And I'm going to go on to some videos and you can talk about in a second. But just before we do that, you snuck in cursor, which I know. And you snacking Claude. And so for many people in the audience, they'll never BuzzFeed I see online is an m p now some people go like, what the heck is an MCP? 00:13:17:06 - 00:13:38:18 Unknown In my head, it's almost like a plug in for AI. And I think the concept of AI driving a sketch up or whatever was like, whoa, not happening, but I'm already seeing these MCP in. So maybe for like the the I'll say the normal people which aren't AI obsessed like you, me and you. Do you want to explain that in layman's terms? 00:13:38:18 - 00:14:02:28 Unknown What's already possible that some people might not be aware of? Yeah. So I'll say it, kind of as I understand it, and I'll just anecdotally share a story. So, this next phase is agenda AI. And so it's this idea of being able to ask an AI assistant to do something, and then it does this thing. And I was sitting on my couch watching this YouTube video and started learning about Claude Bot. 00:14:02:28 - 00:14:23:28 Unknown And Claude bot is this kind of isolated agenda AI you can put on your computer and then it does these different tasks. And I remember texting my business partner Ben like, bro. Have you seen this? This is insane. And he's like, yeah, I just installed it last week and he was playing with it. And so that's in layman's terms what it is just I won't go real technical, but basically what it is, is a handshake. 00:14:23:30 - 00:14:45:59 Unknown These are a handshake between the AI and your your program. So it allows like a pipeline or a way to call different things inside of that program. And so if you man, my LinkedIn and Instagram is just filled, everybody's hooking up Claude and MCC to, you know, these different software programs. And so that is kind of this next stage. 00:14:45:59 - 00:15:08:57 Unknown I think we're going to see a wave. Like I've been saying, a gentle AI is like the new buzzword now, like AI was, you know, four years ago when we had like the ChatGPT in the mid journeys. Yeah. And then now Claude is this new buzzword and AI is, is this next wave that we'll see and some of its hype, but some of it, you know, is real and some of that will get fleshed out to where I think. 00:15:08:59 - 00:15:29:21 Unknown Is it useful, is it practical? Is it something I can use in my day to day? Yeah. On the on that point, maybe we can build upon it because I was the same, because at first you use ChatGPT and it's kind of transactional, isn't it? I want this, it's something back out. And then the next evolution for me was looking at the like Claude coworker, which is with AI on a local computer. 00:15:29:35 - 00:15:48:38 Unknown And then you, you put these plugins like MCC, but what's really kind of the first mind shift for me was like scheduled automations, you know? So like every day, look at this, look at that. And then you kind of go down the rabbit hole. Bill, don't you have like you set goals and plans and then suddenly it gets really rich. 00:15:48:38 - 00:16:18:33 Unknown And then people are talking about from. Oh, you know, it's automations. And then there's like, oh, everyone's got a graph. But the point is you start it and then it evolves, isn't it. And what you mentioned with Klauber, like the new version is great, but that's come out or I'm like, you know, I'm hearing a Hermes agent, but that is a the next step up because they can message you on teams or slack in the, in the car or even your WhatsApp because WhatsApp is huge here. 00:16:18:38 - 00:16:42:38 Unknown Bell. And like you've got the bot in WhatsApp. So I mean I've, I butchered the intro but it's kind of like a slow progression into the madness of it. But effectively you could in theory get an employee at the end of it. Right? That's the gist. That's that's what they're shooting for for sure. Yeah. Because like, rather than having, you know, an assistant that answers your emails or schedules your meetings, you can have Claude or someone else do that. 00:16:42:38 - 00:16:59:57 Unknown And even like myself, I'm noticing I'm using these tools a lot for presentations. So I used to now that we're part of chaos, we have a whole group that helps build assets and presentations when we do these. And I've found myself actually migrating more towards Claude because I can just ask Claude, hey, update this, build a graph for that. 00:16:59:57 - 00:17:16:54 Unknown No, this isn't quite right. Change the colors. And it is kind of like, you know, you're talking to a colleague, you know where you're like, hey, you're close, but you need to change these things. And then the AI goes and does that thing. So it is like, you know, an employee, like a, you know, someone that's they're working for you, right? 00:17:16:57 - 00:17:35:33 Unknown Fair enough. So there's many facets in architecture, and I know you did before, but equally one of the specialisms that you've done is visualization. So bringing it back in key of that because you've got me some juicy eye candy here. I mean, I show you clicked on this sexy piece of, you know, public art and furniture and they all look amazing. 00:17:35:33 - 00:18:02:40 Unknown And these take time as well. But like this video here, for example. Okay, this in the old V-Ray days is months of work. Oh yeah, months of work. And so maybe you tell me first of all, like, what am I looking at? What process has this been through in the modern way? Because I'm a I'm a dinosaur. And then how long does this take versus the old days? 00:18:02:40 - 00:18:25:04 Unknown And how is it different than me putting in physics settings, then clicking render and it takes three days and then I hate it because I got the wrong setting, you know. Yeah for sure. Yeah. And this is kind of the next leg. So we talked about this democratization of AI rendering. And so we go from the 3DS Max V-Ray days to the scape then varies with various. 00:18:25:04 - 00:18:40:09 Unknown We have also video models. So like to your point you have to in the old days hook up 3DS Max and try to create a. You remember you had these like little gizmos where you had to change like the x, y, z and you have to tell it which direction. Like you'd have to click on each one of these lights. 00:18:40:11 - 00:18:58:06 Unknown You try to tell it which direction it's changing. Now, like with a prompt and a video model, you just feed it an image and you go, hey, I want you to animate these light fixtures going up, down in the Z direction. And the video model does it. That's what I did for this. So like I started and created an AI rendering with this, this lobby. 00:18:58:09 - 00:19:18:42 Unknown And then I wanted to animate, you know, these pendants coming up and down inside of there. And it was done, you know, with the prompt which in to, to your point, like I'm sure you can appreciate, remember like the days when you would render and you would hit, you'd network all these computers together, you would get your whole scene set up and you'd hit render and you'd go home for the evening. 00:19:18:42 - 00:19:38:23 Unknown And all of your colleagues, machines, you know, are running on this network in the background. And then you come in in the morning and you pray that you're like, animation or rendering came out correctly. And if it didn't, you'd have to adjust it and then do the whole you'd have to wait, you know, eight hours, ten hours until everyone went home and you'd have to do the thing again. 00:19:38:26 - 00:20:03:38 Unknown And so with this, which is insane, is with, you know, cloud computing and video, you just prompt and literally 60s you get, you know, this animation, which is insane. And you don't have to be, this visualization expert, though, it helps. It helps to understand, like prompting and what makes a good image or a good video. But the point is, is like you don't have I man the visualization. 00:20:03:42 - 00:20:26:50 Unknown People are really hitting hard right now because now any architect, this process has been democratized and they can become a visualization expert. They don't need to understand all the science behind a a video or an image. Well, that's great as well, because one of the things that especially I remember you touched upon there is like you put it in the evening, you pray, and if it crashes in the morning, it's gone. 00:20:26:50 - 00:20:55:18 Unknown Because one of the realities in, in an architectural career is that you've got deadlines having your belt and like, that's the thing you're building towards these things. And also sometimes you need to get things on the fly really, really quickly. So my dissertation this is going to be really embarrassing. So around 2012 was was I was fascinated by 3D game engines and using that because even though it was much more primitive, though, there was something about that immediate reaction. 00:20:55:18 - 00:21:14:21 Unknown And of course you had to. So I was experimenting with the time, the cry engine. And then, of course, we're unreal is the big thing now. But that immediate feedback compared to what you were talking about, like of waiting 12 hours, was just night and day, but the quality wasn't there. So is it is it a lot quicker then like look at this now. 00:21:14:21 - 00:21:36:54 Unknown Right. So I'm going to play it one more time. But you've got we've got this which is explosive axiomatic from a drawing that would take bloody years would be a nightmare. And I imagine it's a lot faster. Right. And it's clearly explains the process and looks nice. I mean exactly. Yeah. This totally speeds up the process for just creating a rendering. 00:21:36:54 - 00:21:56:47 Unknown Like you said, we went from this axiomatic kind of elevation look to now this 3D perspective with this beautiful rendering. Not only that, the other big shift, the disruption that's happening is not just like visualization, but there's this quote that, someone said that I really gravitate to. And like they said, we used to model to render. Now we render to model. 00:21:56:59 - 00:22:17:59 Unknown And so the process has also been inverted because and I'll share like, well, first I'll just say now rather than, you know, building out your Revit model and, you know, applying your materials and then sending it to the render engine and hitting render, we now have this, you know, prompt and you get this. But the other thing you can do is just prompt and get a design right. 00:22:17:59 - 00:22:38:59 Unknown So that was like some of the images we saw at the beginning of the show where a lot of those started, just like text to image. And what's really fascinating about this, I want to just share anecdotally like a quick story. Yeah. Like some of these here, these started actually not with a model but like a prompt and then was fed into various and was able to create like this animation. 00:22:39:06 - 00:23:00:09 Unknown But I want to just quickly share like a story. So when we first started using various my my business partner, he sent me, an A calendar invite for Monday morning and it was called The Future. And this is back in like 2023. Okay. And I came in into the meeting and he goes, Bill, I want to show you something. 00:23:00:09 - 00:23:17:18 Unknown And I was like, okay. And he opens up Revit. And then like this little window pops up and he hits render and it like changes the the storefront a little bit and like changes the color of a door. And I was like what is this. Like what are you showing me. And he's like, Bill, it's AI, it's the future. 00:23:17:33 - 00:23:33:18 Unknown And I was like, okay, but like, what's what are you doing? Like, what's the use case? Like, what's the value add? Like, why would I use it? You know, it just kind of changed the material a little bit. And he goes, you can prompt and it can change your, your storefront or you can prompt and say add windows here. 00:23:33:28 - 00:23:56:09 Unknown And I had this light bulb and I was like, wait a minute. You mean like, I don't have to model the the storefront and the door and the window to render it? He's like, no, you just prompt it and it adds, it's called generative AI. And I was like, oh my gosh, this is incredible. And so because I was used to like having to model all these things in Rhino or Revit, it would take like a week or two to build out the model and then kick it off to a rendering. 00:23:56:16 - 00:24:19:21 Unknown And so the point is, is like this process has been inverted. Like we don't need to start with the model per se. You could also just, you know, there's there's this idea that you can use the substrate of it as well. So you can have like just a conceptual box massing, whatever. And then you could apply materials and other things, but you could also just start with nothing and then prompt just to get the juices flowing and get the ideation going. 00:24:19:26 - 00:24:40:52 Unknown And so the process has been inverted as well. Like because we would start in these design programs and have to render versus now you can start with generative AI prompt. And you don't need the building or all of the building and all of its, you know, finishes to be able to to render it. So that's also incredibly disruptive to the architecture, you know, process because totally backwards. 00:24:40:57 - 00:25:11:54 Unknown It's it's quite exciting. I remember as well, you know, around that area where you're saying the feature, right? I remember playing with Midjourney at the time, and it was quite interesting because Midjourney, it couldn't really interpret people like their faces. And it can now, I mean, look at this year. So this is this is another video that you've shown that you've sent over the what strikes to me immediately is a the interactive ness, because it's not always just about the end shot, but as an architect you've got design team meeting. 00:25:11:54 - 00:25:29:52 Unknown So you know, when you get world out or the clients coming in, you will this out of your ass. Excuse my language, but and you're like, what? I like that you just move the person and then you get it to render. Whereas that is not possible in the old days. Right? So what am I looking at you then, Bill? 00:25:29:57 - 00:25:49:09 Unknown Okay, this is actually a good segue. So over on the left is a finished rendering. Right. And what I like to say is generative AI is where pixels go to die. Okay. That means like you get a rendering and that's it. Like it's a dead end. Now, with the advent of some of these image to 3D models, we can actually now hook that into various. 00:25:49:09 - 00:26:14:59 Unknown And so we're pushing the information from that image over to the parent app. So whether that's Revit, Rhino, SketchUp etc. you can actually now close that loop. So you can have all of these, you know, people cars assets etc.. And I can push that information over to the 3D environment. So now we're we're closing this loop of going from a finished rendering to actually a client might go, actually, I like that. 00:26:15:02 - 00:26:34:52 Unknown You know, could we add that, you know, to the project and you go. Sure. And you push a button and then it pushes it over to the project. So it kind of closes this loop of 2D to 3D as well versus just, you know, a 2D image that's quite powerful. Oh, the other way is so I'm the new intern and I do something completely stupid. 00:26:34:52 - 00:26:58:50 Unknown And then right before the meeting, you will in and go, Holy shit, we need to move the car out of the shops. You can't see x, y, Z, then you can do it right. And that's nice because we're all human beings and make mistakes. I remember you laugh. Once there was this like pod. And I remember one of the directors at a big company was explaining his pods and then the student just like photoshopped in the one person that couldn't access the pods, which was a wheelchair user. 00:26:58:52 - 00:27:15:42 Unknown He was like, great, do you know what I mean? And he came up on slide three. But in this you would just fix it really quickly then, right? And there's no disaster and everything's kosher and everything kind of works or shows quick things like the background, the saying, why is it here? That's not what La Light looks like. 00:27:15:45 - 00:27:33:09 Unknown You can do all this really quickly then, right? Exactly 100%. So it just makes it easier, faster, you know, especially for those deadlines, short turnarounds when you have to do that. It's super helpful in that state. Yeah. No. Fair enough. And I got one more video here. Let's have a look at it now. So is this another example. 00:27:33:09 - 00:27:53:33 Unknown What am I looking at. Oh this is internal right. So it's not all external renders. You can. And that's a totally different wheelhouse of physics lighting rules and all that stuff isn't it. Yeah. Yeah. So this is kind of that middle layer I was talking about. So everyone's doing AI rendering right now. There's, you know, a bazillion of AI rendering tools that you can pick up from. 00:27:53:45 - 00:28:11:14 Unknown What we're trying to get into is kind of this next middle layer of generative design using AI and specifically BIM components. So like imagine like you're an architect or an interior designer and you have this kitchen layout and you want to drop some pendants over the counter top, you want to drop in some can lights throughout the space. 00:28:11:23 - 00:28:29:06 Unknown We're using this tool that you can actually prompt and you can say, hey, put in pendants over the dining table in the counter and put canned lights everywhere else. And then it literally drops it into the Revit model. So you can see it there on the bottom left. That's the Revit model. And as those lights get dropped over on the right is Inscape. 00:28:29:06 - 00:28:50:28 Unknown And so you can see the Inscape model because it's a real time renderer. As those lights are getting dropped you're seeing the visualization of that happening in real time, which is also insane because now we're not just working with an AI rendering, we're actually working with native BIM components, you know, placing lights, diffusers, walls, all of those kinds of things using AI now. 00:28:50:28 - 00:29:11:59 Unknown So this is kind of this next iteration of beyond just visualization, but using it for generative AI for BIM. Yeah. So it's like there's a few things, but the key theme that I get from what you're saying is, in essence, the feedback loop is a lot quicker, and you can iterate the design a lot faster in an interactive way. 00:29:11:59 - 00:29:32:30 Unknown That's the first thing that pops out to me. The second thing is they just look better and faster and more believable, and you can kind of scale it up. Is there anything else I'm missing or. But the first one is the kind of the big deal, right? Because time is money. And also, it's just bloody frustrating waiting for stuff to come out all the time, right? 00:29:32:35 - 00:29:52:47 Unknown Totally. And, you know, I'll share quickly another anecdote, like a story. So when I was working at HDR, I was noticing there's like all these repetitive processes that we do in architecture, like I'm dropping in all these canned lights, you know, and okay, I got, you know, ten floors of patient rooms and I got to drop in a light, you know, in each patient room above the bed. 00:29:52:47 - 00:30:11:59 Unknown And then I got a drop in a few cans in that room, and then I go to the next one, and I can create groups and try to like, you know, fast track all that, of course. But it's this repetitive process. And I remember talking to and this is before like DFM a or industrialized construction like all these buzzwords started existing where you have like configurator and then that drives like an output. 00:30:12:04 - 00:30:35:02 Unknown And I remember like pitching this to like the leadership. And I remember them saying like Bill, we make hospitals not Honda. Civics like every design is unique, you know. And I said, I get that. But I said there's all this repetition in the in the details. Like each room has the same stuff in it. Like we could configure this piece and then repeat that over and over and over again. 00:30:35:06 - 00:30:56:02 Unknown And so that is kind of what we're seeing on the screen is being able to all these repetitive clicks and picks like, yes, I need to drop lights in there, but do I need to drop in every single light, you know, at such and such spacing? So the foot candle and all know like if there's this repetitive process you could actually prompt and then, you know, lay out that light for example. 00:30:56:06 - 00:31:19:18 Unknown Yeah that's the thing is so important. And I don't I don't think people enjoy doing the repetition, speaking for me like it's that soul destroying part of the job, like the I, I, I was watching just before we did this, you know, you online, you get loads of little clips. There's a guy called Rory Sutherland and he, he talks about all this anecdotal great stuff as well. 00:31:19:18 - 00:31:43:18 Unknown And he in his head he was saying like, the worst case of AI is that the accounts department get it? Because then it's about cost saving. But the best case scenario is the creatives. Because actually the best thing about AI is you get rid of the repetitive, mundane shit to focus on the design, which is kind of what we all signed up for when me and use were in architecture school, right? 00:31:43:21 - 00:32:02:04 Unknown Isn't that point exactly 100%? Which actually might be a good Segway. I don't know if I can still share my screen. Yeah, yeah, I'm going to bring it up Bill now. And so guys, you got to be patient with us because, you know, I think we've been I think we've been pretty slick as it goes. Right. So so far I'll try not to screw up the flow here. 00:32:02:16 - 00:32:20:47 Unknown Touch wouldn't they. It would be me that wrecks it. But okay. So I can see everything. And just for any audio listeners you can look at the video as well. You should check it out. We do audio and video. So Bill is sharing a presentation right now. Over to you. Go ahead. All right. Sounds good. And I'm not going to talk at you guys or present. 00:32:20:47 - 00:32:42:26 Unknown But I do want to just have some visuals for this point. So you were touching on like this repetitive process. This is another asset or another spectrum of this that we have in architecture, which is creating construction drawings and it's very repetitive. So again, I'll go back to my architecture days. I would get work on a hospital and I would get busy creating my floor plans, my reflected ceiling plans. 00:32:42:26 - 00:33:04:16 Unknown I would elevate all the storefront. I'd cut sections through my stairs. I tagged the doors, the walls, the windows. I dimension finished faces stud, I create sheets, I'd place those views on sheets, I'd hit print, and then a new hospital would come in the door and I would do all of these steps all over again. And so what we wanted to ask is like, could there be a way actually to automate some of this with AI? 00:33:04:21 - 00:33:21:35 Unknown And so like, could we automate view creation? Could I prompt and say, you know, elevate all my kitchens and bathrooms and could I just prompt and say dimension my finished face of stud? And so that's what we also have been working on as well as trying to automate the construction drawing side of it. And this is also tied to like a lot of people know, chaos. 00:33:21:38 - 00:33:42:47 Unknown Just quickly back to my story. So chaos has been known as a visualization company in my main role at chaos is actually we're trying to expand beyond visualization and get into the generative design and the construction documentation space. So like my main role at the company is to go beyond visualization and get into some of those EC kind of workflows that we all did in architecture. 00:33:42:54 - 00:34:03:04 Unknown And because that's what my company was doing, you know, before the acquisition. And so this aspect of it, this construction documents, is another angle, you know, to that. And so in here we have the ability note you can just hit this little play button and it will dimension your grid lines. And it'll also tag your reflected ceiling plans. 00:34:03:09 - 00:34:23:18 Unknown You could do it that way. Or if we want to hook up, you know AI to it, you could go through and prompt and I could say, you know, elevate rooms 103 through 107 and then the AI drops in all those elevations. Now the cool thing about this with some other, you know, add ins and those kinds of things, you have to check box 103 104 105106. 00:34:23:18 - 00:34:41:59 Unknown But because it's Lem, I can just speak to it in English language. Right? 103 107 and it understands that that means all the intermediate, you know, rooms in between. And it'll elevate those rooms. And I can do the same thing with like in large plans. If I want to create in large plans, I can prompt and it can, you know, automate the creation of the enlarged plans. 00:34:42:09 - 00:35:00:59 Unknown I can create the rooms and the sheets for those rooms inside as well. I can dimension this is like the most popular one. So like in here we have two dimension finished face off stud just prompt and then it can go through dimension it quick. Another just quick story because I think it helps bring some light and makes it less boring. 00:35:00:59 - 00:35:22:47 Unknown But we had a project when I was working in architecture and we had a hallway, and as the hallway was there, it was modeled correctly. It was like four feet or whatever the the egress needed to be for that hallway. But one of the designers, she accidentally clicked, you know, a door jamb instead of the the the wall, the hallway width. 00:35:23:02 - 00:35:46:16 Unknown And so it made it look like the hallway was shorter, like narrower. And what happened is it actually got passed by the architect, the project manager, the fire marshal, the contractor. They built the darn thing in the wrong place. They got out in the field and realized that the hallway was too narrow to meet code, and then they had to rip out that wall and rebuild the walls and doors. 00:35:46:18 - 00:36:04:47 Unknown And the architect and the contractor split the bill. And so the point here is that big problem. Yeah, exactly. So the model was correct, but the drawings were incorrect because she had snapped to the to the door jamb and it looked like it was, you know, to the wall with tools like this, it's like you tell it dimension finished face of wall. 00:36:04:57 - 00:36:20:28 Unknown It's not going to grab a door because categorically a door is not a wall. So it's going to, you know, dimension to the right thing. So the tools not only speed up the process, a lot of times it can also help with, you know, QA, QC and drawing integrity. And now it doesn't mean let the robot go blind. 00:36:20:30 - 00:36:37:50 Unknown It means double check it. Please do your due diligence, you know, and make sure you put these things in the hands of people that know what they're doing. Because with great power comes great responsibility. Like, you got to make sure you know how to use it. And just like you would double check and interns drawings, double check, you know what the computer creates as well. 00:36:37:50 - 00:36:59:18 Unknown So this is another aspect and kind of that cognitive labor labor. Layer, if you will. Gosh, that's a tongue twister cognitive labor layer where you have a drawing set. We're not just doing the AI renderings like we were showing at the beginning. We can also automate the construction drawings as well. Yeah, it just comes so far. 00:36:59:33 - 00:37:25:42 Unknown And the the thing is on one side is because I was in architecture and out of him, I like that I see this stuff because one quick story from me though is that so I when I was in architecture clicking around trying to do it, I had this huge residential scheme and there was this it's dated now, but at the time you had what was called lifetime Homes, and you had to basically make sure that the projects were up to code for wheelchair users and this stuff. 00:37:25:42 - 00:37:48:33 Unknown And again, when you're tired, there's 300 apartments. It's very easy to miss one bill, isn't it? So immediately when you're talking now and you tell me that story, even if you had like the A, the AI in the background going, hey, this is a great visualization, but you want to check if this is work. That's the kind of thing that will really, in my opinion, be super valuable. 00:37:48:38 - 00:38:12:23 Unknown You know, like warning on the code, is that the kind of thing that's starting to trickle into the orbit as well then 100. So like it's one of those things where the AI understands what the code book says. Like it can look into IBC 2015, 1821, all of those kinds of things and can understand all of the requirements and then can backtrack that to your model, make sure that it makes sense. 00:38:12:33 - 00:38:16:28 Unknown So totally. Yeah. 00:38:16:33 - 00:38:38:11 Unknown No no no, it's it's great. I mean, so maybe what I could say, because you're here now and you're at the forefront. So if you're happy with it like so we talked about this I think it's really exciting. It's really, really interesting. Let's talk about as well a few of maybe the concerns that people have. So I'm I'm probably a let's lean into the AI camp. 00:38:38:16 - 00:39:06:18 Unknown Right. But then I can understand people's concerns. But also in the UK we're seeing now conversations. So in the Architecture Journal, which is a famous architecture print in the UK, we had some architecture practices pleading to take on architecture students. And I wrote a piece online on LinkedIn which is going to get published or whatever, the same thing talking about like, well, the traditional role of The graduate is extinct. 00:39:06:18 - 00:39:25:21 Unknown And what I meant by that is not that the graduates should go away because you need people to enter the industry. Those people are going to be directors of the future. But what I used to like me doing a visualization for free to four weeks in the old days for a presentation like that version of what I was doing is no longer efficient. 00:39:25:21 - 00:39:50:47 Unknown It is evaporated and there are costs higher. To hire someone in the UK will be in businesses attacks more than ever, but also the cost of living is higher. Yet there is a temptation with tech to rule things out. So there's this kind of perfect storm. But then equally, on the other hand, I think perhaps a grad is the perfect person to use these tools and accelerate. 00:39:50:50 - 00:40:09:50 Unknown Like, look at you, Bill. If you were did mainstream architecture, you would have been an architect, but you pivoted to BIM, and I think that a could be the next evolvement of that role. So from a lot at you there, but hopefully you kind of get what I'm on about with the climate and stuff. What's your views and your gut instinct and all that? 00:40:09:54 - 00:40:39:42 Unknown Yeah, I agree, I think the internal or the early column, the entry level, you know, architecture people still need to understand the why. Like why are we doing this thing. And so there is a mentorship that, you know, I don't want to lose sight of. I mean, you need to know even the example I was showing, like, let's say that I gave this auto drawing tool to, you know, an entry level architecture person, and then they go, all right, I can dimension everything and they dimension everything or they dimension to the center of the wall, which we don't do. 00:40:39:45 - 00:40:58:54 Unknown Typically in architecture we dimension to the finished face of stud. So like you still need to have that person understand the why we're doing things. Because like, you're going to have a framer go out there and lay the studs in a certain way, and they need to know where the the studs going to be at. And so they're still needs to be that awareness of it. 00:40:58:57 - 00:41:25:11 Unknown But to your point, I do think that the design technology just evolves like it goes to another level and then you become an expert in that space. So like it went from, you know, people being the CAD guy, you know, really understanding that to the BIM person. And then you have specialties specialty and, you know, generative design. You have your computational designers and your digital practice, you know, people, and they're always kind of keeping a pulse on, like where the industry is going. 00:41:25:23 - 00:41:48:50 Unknown And so even our, our company, we called it Evolve Lab. Like, I didn't want to be a CAD one or a BIM shift, like I wanted to be Evolve Lab because we wanted to evolve as the industry evolved and kind of stay on the forefront of that. And so like our big thing was like raising the ceiling while raising the floor, meaning like we wanted to be like on the the forefront of where the innovation was, but then bringing the rest of the industry along for the ride. 00:41:48:54 - 00:42:13:11 Unknown And I think that applies to the, the, the entry level designer or people that are working at the firm that want to specialize in design technology, because then what they can do is the same thing. They can be an interpreter versus an entrepreneur, and then the intro or the design technology person understands where the industry is going. That then can bring their firm along for the ride, if that makes sense. 00:42:13:16 - 00:42:36:59 Unknown Yeah, no it does. And you touch upon a word that you said entrepreneurs right now that you are an entrepreneur in my head, but also you've done the brave jump and I've pivoted me and you are alternative careers one way or another, because we done architecture and for one reason or another, we didn't do the conventional route. Now I bump into a lot of people. 00:42:36:59 - 00:42:57:35 Unknown I'm sure you felt the same, that taking that kind of jump, it's a lot of courage or you kind of got to lean into a passion. So maybe I can just get your brains on that move first and then we can talk about the business. But like the initial jump of going away from the architecture path because it felt like for me at the start of, like, you don't want to be an architect. 00:42:57:38 - 00:43:19:47 Unknown What's wrong with you? Are you okay? You know, like, what's this big thing? You're going to give it all up for this BIM thing? Like, walk me through that pivot for you and and any advice now that you've done it for people that are trying to do it, but then that's really quite nervous. Yeah for sure. So I'll also clarify, like and I probably didn't enunciate it very well, but I want to differentiate between two words. 00:43:19:54 - 00:43:43:42 Unknown One is entrepreneur. That is someone that starts a business, they get a venture going, and then there's an entrepreneur. And I read about this in the book Disrupt You. And an entrepreneur is someone that works internally to a business, and they're able to accelerate like a business within a business, if you will. They have the resources. And so like an entrepreneur typically has no money unless they get outside funding. 00:43:43:42 - 00:44:03:06 Unknown So we bootstrapped our business so we can get into that. But in is someone that has the money, like they're working at a big firm and they can do the innovation and they can move things along and they have the the resources to do that. So I wanted to differentiate between entrepreneur and entrepreneur. And then tied to me my story. 00:44:03:11 - 00:44:21:42 Unknown It was something that my wife encouraged me to, to do as an idea that I had in and back to what I said with my journey, as I thought everyone was doing them. And then I moved out to Colorado and realized not everyone was. And I thought, well, shoot, I could be this on demand as needed. Been manager, computational designer and help people. 00:44:21:47 - 00:44:47:57 Unknown Now the buzzword is digital transformation. So like help people, you know, implement design technology at their firms. And so I did that and then just started hiring people much smarter than myself. So there is that leap. What I would say is like become a specialist in something, stay on the forefront. And then once you're that specialist, then you can offer other people solutions and solve their problems. 00:44:48:02 - 00:45:09:23 Unknown The one thing I'll say for my myself that I did not like about being an entrepreneur is once we started to grow and I had employees, now I became this really big business admin person. And then all of the team members were working on all the fun stuff. And so, like, I started just hating my job because, like, I felt I did this because I loved the craft. 00:45:09:26 - 00:45:30:59 Unknown Like I love architecture. To your point, like earlier, like, why are you leaving architecture? Well, I kind of did that. Like, I, I became this business person and then I fell away from the craft, which I did not like. And so working now, back at chaos, I can kind of get a little bit closer to the craft because now we have someone that, you know, does HR and it like when you're starting a business, you're scrappy, you do whatever you have to do. 00:45:31:02 - 00:45:52:40 Unknown Your janitor, you're the web designer, like they say, oh, like start a business and everything. Yeah. And I get the I'm there. It's the best and the worst. Yeah, yeah. The accounts need doing. You're doing it. You know, you got to go in to pick up the post that you need for that. You're doing it, you know, and running to the mailbox, grabbing the checks, going to the bank. 00:45:52:47 - 00:46:08:52 Unknown You know, like sending the and so like some of you delegate and you should like have an accountant that can send an invoice or something. But there is a growth stage in where you do have to do a lot of things. And it's very romanticized, like starting a business. They're like, oh, like work your own hours. And it's like, what? 00:46:08:54 - 00:46:23:52 Unknown Like all the hours and like nights and weekends. Like, is that what you mean? It's the opposite. I've done the down the pub. If anyone asks me to do a business, I go, you're a normal person, don't do it. Of course, I never listen to anyone and I wouldn't change it for a world. The world. But you get what I mean. 00:46:23:54 - 00:46:44:18 Unknown Like, most people should not run a business because you will work more hours. Unless it's a lifestyle business, which takes a lot of discipline. And because there's a few businesses, isn't it? And you've you've grown it and you hire people. But I want to just quickly ask you about that bill as well, because I've got 1 or 2 questions in mind, but on your team. 00:46:44:18 - 00:47:03:40 Unknown So people who are passionate about it, so you know what you're doing, that chaos, which is amazing. Like when people would be really interested in that. What kind of people do you look for in your team and like what you know what what draws you attention on an application? And you mentioned getting people more intelligent of you. Can you can you get leave? 00:47:03:52 - 00:47:24:30 Unknown Let me in on the process a little bit. And then so there's juicy tips as well for any listeners who have been eyeing up what you do at chaos. Yeah for sure. So there's this quote from Robert Kiyosaki, who wrote a book, the guy that wrote Rich dad, Poor Dad. He wrote another book and he says a students work for C students and B students work for the government. 00:47:24:35 - 00:47:42:35 Unknown Okay, so a students work for C students. I was a C student, all right? I was not I can tell you all the failures I made academically. And I think part of it was like I was like naive enough and ignorant enough to just do a business without realizing if it would work or not. And then I would always hire the A students and I would. 00:47:42:38 - 00:48:01:14 Unknown I remember our first hire actually was a guy that was a physicist when school for physics, but then got into engineering. And so he was my my first hire, really, really smart guy. And so I always try to find the unicorns, I call them unicorns. And those have always been our best hires. I've had some really bad hires as well. 00:48:01:16 - 00:48:25:35 Unknown Like we tried to hire software development people like software engineers, and a lot of them actually have been our worst hires. And it's just a different mindset, I think, versus like the unicorns for us, the people we look for is someone that has a background and experience and then got into coding. So like they understand, like I don't have to explain to someone what a parapet is or what a cantilever is like. 00:48:25:38 - 00:48:47:11 Unknown They just they know. They know the world like they know the world. Even I'm not an expert, but even like I would have struggled to have the conversation with you if I've never been in a practice, right? It's that kind of thing. It's a different vibe, isn't it? 100%? Yes, 100%. And, there's this thing like there's viability and then there's, desirability. 00:48:47:14 - 00:49:01:21 Unknown Like, is this viable? Can it, can we do it? But then is it desired by the industry? And one of the reasons we built the tools we did is because they were tools I would have wanted, you know, I desired these tools. And so, like, that's the thing that we look for in a candidate is like, do you know the why? 00:49:01:26 - 00:49:26:35 Unknown Like, why are we building this thing? What problem are we trying to solve? And you can you can educate people on that. But it takes a long time. And then I think and it's no shade on software engineers, but the it's just left brain right brain people. Right. It's like I think software engineers just operate differently. And even this vibe coding thing, like a lot of software engineers and I know there's exceptions, but a lot of them don't like this stuff because they love the craft. 00:49:26:35 - 00:49:47:30 Unknown They look at my code, look how I built this. And they can over engineer stuff where like an architect that does programing, I feel like most of the time like, hey, I need a solution to this problem. How do I build this feature? Like as fast as possible? And so like we try to find those unicorns, that understand the why of what we're building, if that makes sense. 00:49:47:35 - 00:50:06:45 Unknown Yeah. No, it really, really does. Well, it kind of people then get behind the mission or like, it makes sense to me of what you're solving, especially if someone's had the problem, you know, like in a parallel universe. Maybe I got into coding and then I was talking to you about how it was so bloody annoying rendering and that I'd love to solve it. 00:50:06:47 - 00:50:34:11 Unknown I probably get further in the interview process than someone that doesn't know. Architecture doesn't really care, but I'm really hot. Or coding. There's that that that decision, isn't it? Okay, cool. The the other question I've got is probably the last one for me, is especially your student now. So I mean, I've talked about the past and I feel like, when I was a student, I was kind of excited and nervous, you know, and then when you were talking about big concept with further in our career. 00:50:34:11 - 00:50:57:16 Unknown But like with AI, I'm so excited. But there's so much change. And also even the the university, everything's changed even in the 12, 13, 14 years or whatever since I've been there. What advice would you give to an architecture student now? Or maybe Bill, let's pretend me and you are students right now, but you had the knowledge that you have right now. 00:50:57:21 - 00:51:17:28 Unknown What would you do? You know, and maybe I can add a caveat on two things of like if you were still a mainstream architect, but also someone who wants to do entrepreneurialism or likes technology like you, you know? Yeah. I actually would argue things have changed not only in the last 12 to 13 years, but 12 to 13 months, like in the last life. 00:51:17:33 - 00:51:34:35 Unknown Yeah, yeah. And in the last eight months. You know, it just seems like new models are coming out all the time. And things that I did not know we could do, we can do now with these. And one of the things, just like my story about, like when we, when I first saw generative AI and I was like, this is like alien. 00:51:34:35 - 00:51:54:54 Unknown This is crazy. I don't know, this is which I don't know how this works. How is this, this doing this thing? Anyways, I digress. The point is, is that there is the technology is changing quick. So I would say don't fall in love with the tool. Like don't fall in love with Revit or Grasshopper or whatever the tool is because the tools are changing. 00:51:54:54 - 00:52:30:18 Unknown And with AI coming out like you need to learn how to learn, like you need to understand what is coming out and consuming content constantly because it is changing so fast. Like you need to know. Like I'll just give it anecdotal example. Okay. We used to use stable diffusion. It's an AI model inside of various. And then we use when Nana Banana came out from Google, we implemented that and it became there was workflows that that manifested that did not exist before with nano banana like now, I could prompt a rendering and I could say create an accident metric or create a mood board, and it could create a mood board. 00:52:30:18 - 00:53:02:42 Unknown Okay, now take that mood board and apply it to my scene. Okay. And then the other examples we were showing earlier, like, okay, I have a 2D rendering created a 3D model of that. Well that's because that's possible model. And so the point is, is that these models are coming out so fast, and the technology is changing so quick that you as a architect, a designer at your firm, regardless of what level you know you're at, you need to know that this stuff is changing every month. 00:53:02:42 - 00:53:23:50 Unknown I was going to say every six months, but honestly, like it seems like every month some new thing is coming out and it's I, I get it, it's dizzying. Like it's spinning, like it feels like we're on a shaky foundation because the world is changing so quick. But like, you do have to like for myself when I'm not working, I actually and I'm kind of weird in more ways than one. 00:53:23:52 - 00:53:37:57 Unknown I watch YouTube videos, like on nights and weekends on this stuff, just to kind of like keep a pulse in and to keep learning because I geek out about it. Yeah, but it's also that whole, you know, very cliche saying, like, if you love what you do, you'll never work another day in your life. So there is that as well. 00:53:37:57 - 00:53:55:16 Unknown So like, you need to love the craft and learn how to learn like constantly stay up and up on things. So and maybe like just to add to your point that one of the things because I actually think that LinkedIn is behind and all this stuff. And so in the UK, not many people are a fan of Elon Musk, whatever. 00:53:55:16 - 00:54:17:57 Unknown We've got to move that aside for a second, but I find X such a good platform for following all the tech people in the AI scene. And I would argue there's like an innovation often daily log on and it'll be like boom, release this or and it's like, oh my gosh, you know, like Grok Box came out like last week and like it's a big deal. 00:54:18:02 - 00:54:40:42 Unknown I've been using them. It's absolutely sick. And then there's just a new thing, a new thing and new thing. And I don't really see as much noise in the architecture seen yet. But he will come and those are there. But the main guys like Codex is insane, you know. Anthropic. Yeah, they released us. But like there are some people really vocal there and it's not in the architecture or my industry of like recruitment or whatever. 00:54:40:45 - 00:55:00:33 Unknown But you learn, don't you, Bill? And like I, I get ideas like parallel ideas. So I mean is that you kind of. But the downside is though, it's like every day at the end you're like, oh my gosh, I need to go to the beach or something and just chill out because it's a lot. But do you feel like the same like it's or is there any other resources where you look? 00:55:00:35 - 00:55:21:30 Unknown You mentioned YouTube. Any other tidbits? Yeah, mainly I consume YouTube and LinkedIn. Those are my two. I am on X as well, but I don't consume as much content there. And I think to like regardless of what you think of Elon, like, I think the guy is doing some pretty crazy stuff, like we're talking about putting data centers in the space and like, I mean, it's it's kind of insane. 00:55:21:35 - 00:55:47:26 Unknown Yeah. So I think it's like you have to have respect, at least for like some of these people, regardless of what, you know, where they land on things. Yeah, I think one of yeah, I think one of the comments I would make is I think what's happening and why there's a delay is because you have these huge AI companies like OpenAI and X and others that are doing they have billions of dollars that they're dumping into this tech. 00:55:47:26 - 00:56:07:35 Unknown And so they're going to be on the forefront of the forefront. And then us in the AEC space, we kind of like it's it's cost prohibitive for us to build data centers in space. Like we're not going to do that at chaos, you know what I mean? Like but Elon can and he can do and whatever benefit that happened, what happens from that we can actually latch on to. 00:56:07:38 - 00:56:31:59 Unknown So like whether it's going to be stable diffusion or a banana from Google because Google has a lot of money and innovation as well. We can grab on to that and we can implement that. And then we have another AI model that is the 2D to 3D. Someone else can do that with these big AI, but I think that's why there's a little bit of delay in the AUC space, because we just we do not have billions and billions of dollars to to build our own AI models. 00:56:32:02 - 00:56:50:28 Unknown Typically, though, that is, you know, even that is becoming more democratized, where you can actually on your PC do a little bit of machine learning, but definitely not at the scale. And that's the reason, like, these guys are building data centers because it takes an immense amount of compute to do that. And so then there's this delay that happens that hits our industry. 00:56:50:33 - 00:57:10:38 Unknown That's my opinion. But maybe there's other it's completely valid. And I tell you what one last thing before we we we rounded up and we we do that. But like I have a spare computer and it's turned into my second AI slave. But even buying ramble at the moment, that's the one thing I need for all this dude I have. 00:57:10:47 - 00:57:40:23 Unknown I spent like, €200, which is like what, $300? And what would have been an $80 part before? But it's like you have it was like you got me because I was like, I need the ram, you know, like and and everything's gone up. So there are some, you know, definite drawbacks in that way. But in my opinion, exciting time to be alive as someone that's always enjoyed tech and innovations and how that can help with architecture, I'm really, really excited. 00:57:40:28 - 00:57:59:30 Unknown Bill, you've been an absolute pleasure and I always enjoy geeking out on all this stuff. If people have enjoyed this episode, they want to follow up. Of course we got stuff in the links and the buyer, I'm going to put it all there. But just for our audio listeners saying, are they going somewhere, Bill, how do they find you? 00:57:59:30 - 00:58:14:33 Unknown And if they're not discovered. Cos if they're not discovered, what you do in particular, where do they find all that good stuff and how do they connect to you. Yeah for sure. So if you want to connect with me, LinkedIn's a great place. You can just search up Bill Allen and probably BIM and you'll you'll find me there for chaos. 00:58:14:33 - 00:58:39:18 Unknown Chaos. Com you'll see all the different products and things that we're doing. If you want to try out some of the tools, there's free trials. You can do that. But no sweat or pressure worries either way. But yeah, that's where you can find us and find me. Well, it's been an absolute pleasure. And as someone that's used chaos before in the past, I, I genuinely know the quality that is there. 00:58:39:18 - 00:59:00:45 Unknown So I can see why you joined that team and I can see what you brought to the table. And as this show is always about the technology, the conversation first, and I'm really picky who I bring on and I you've been an absolute, absolute pleasure. So thank you so much. What I'm going to do is just say quickly goodbye to the listener or the viewer. 00:59:00:52 - 00:59:18:06 Unknown I hope you've enjoyed this. For me, it's been one of the most interesting ones we've done. It's such a special time and I'm going to have to race to get this out, Bill, because as you know, this will video could even date if we if I leave it more than like a few weeks because everything's bloody moving on. 00:59:18:14 - 00:59:39:13 Unknown So my editor Ben is going to have an absolute fit. But that's okay. The show goes on. Did you like this episode? Did you, did you? Were you interested? Definitely connect with Bill online. Definitely follow chaos. I've always admired the product as someone that's used it, so check them out and thank you. Let me know what you want to watch. 00:59:39:14 - 00:59:57:14 Unknown I've got more videos coming up, some on tack, but if you fed up with that, I've also got some non-tech ones in architecture as well, because it's the human beings and the computers and hopefully the robots don't kill us. But until then, I'll get more episodes out. Thank you everyone. See you later. Take care. Goodbye.