1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,900 Hi, I'm Ralph Levinson, Health Sciences 2 00:00:02,900 --> 00:00:06,160 Professor Emeritus at UCLA. And I'm Luc 3 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:08,260 Lewitanski, a French journalist covering 4 00:00:08,260 --> 00:00:11,640 technology, politics, and power. Welcome 5 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:13,500 to Your Planet, Your Health, where we share 6 00:00:13,500 --> 00:00:15,120 stories about the environment without 7 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:17,300 falling prey to despair. In these 8 00:00:17,300 --> 00:00:19,280 conversations, we explore the knowledge 9 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:22,720 and tools we can use to be good earthlings. So 10 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:25,600 Luc, let's talk about some good news. At 11 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:27,240 least let's start by talking. Ooh, I like 12 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:30,200 good news. I got some good news for you. On 13 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:34,240 August 8th, 2023, the Brazilian government 14 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:39,360 announced that in July, they cleared 60% 15 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:42,700 less rainforest than the previous July. So 16 00:00:42,700 --> 00:00:45,280 the numbers for deforestation fell 17 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:49,020 massively between 2022 and 2023 in the 18 00:00:49,020 --> 00:00:51,400 Amazon rainforest, a large part of which is 19 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:53,940 in Brazil. That's right. 60% of the 20 00:00:53,940 --> 00:00:55,660 rainforest is in Brazil. There's a 21 00:00:55,660 --> 00:00:58,460 smattering in some other countries, 22 00:00:58,460 --> 00:01:01,940 particularly Ecuador, Colombia, Peru, but 23 00:01:01,940 --> 00:01:05,099 also Guiana and Suriname. Bolivia, 24 00:01:05,099 --> 00:01:08,540 Venezuela. Yes. So this was really good 25 00:01:08,540 --> 00:01:11,040 news. Let's talk a moment about rainforest. 26 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:13,080 Yeah. Why is this important? Why do we care 27 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:14,920 about the rainforest? I mean, like, it's 28 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:16,600 nice, it's beautiful, it's got lots of 29 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:18,780 animals and trees. But why is it important 30 00:01:18,780 --> 00:01:22,540 from a climate lens? Well, animals and trees 31 00:01:22,540 --> 00:01:25,180 are important in their own right. Of course. 32 00:01:25,180 --> 00:01:30,080 And they really do supply a local ecology 33 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:32,840 that's vibrant and that we can appreciate. 34 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:35,260 But let's look through a climate lens. You 35 00:01:35,260 --> 00:01:37,420 know, people talk about planting trees 36 00:01:37,420 --> 00:01:41,440 because trees suck in CO2, carbon dioxide, a 37 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:44,660 long-lived greenhouse gas, as we all know. 38 00:01:44,660 --> 00:01:47,880 And they store it. They store it as tree. I'm 39 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:49,260 sorry. I don't understand what you said. 40 00:01:49,260 --> 00:01:51,280 They store it as tree? Yeah. Yeah. 41 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:53,500 Basically, you turn that carbon dioxide 42 00:01:53,500 --> 00:01:57,540 into tree. What happens in photosynthesis 43 00:01:57,540 --> 00:02:02,200 is you take carbon dioxide and water and you 44 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:04,560 mix them together and you end up with 45 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:07,420 carbohydrates that can then be made into 46 00:02:07,420 --> 00:02:11,580 proteins and other chemicals and build a 47 00:02:11,580 --> 00:02:15,740 tree. So the CO2, there's more that goes into 48 00:02:15,740 --> 00:02:18,760 a tree than the CO2, but part of a good deal of 49 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:23,140 the carbon in a tree is sucked out of the air. 50 00:02:23,140 --> 00:02:26,140 So much like how when we breathe, we inhale 51 00:02:26,140 --> 00:02:30,400 oxygen and exhale CO2, trees. Well they kind 52 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:32,740 of do the reverse. Photosynthesis is such a 53 00:02:32,740 --> 00:02:35,680 beautifully balanced, complex system. The 54 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:40,720 trees and us evolve together and we are 55 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:44,440 basically relying on each other to create 56 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:47,760 this atmosphere and to use it to live. It is a 57 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:50,360 kind of breathing. It's a kind of taking in 58 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:53,440 and putting back out. And it happens to be 59 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:55,380 very advantageous for us because it's 60 00:02:55,380 --> 00:02:58,320 taking in CO2 and as a result, there's more 61 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:00,720 oxygen out there. So it's sort of doubly 62 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:03,920 beneficial. It's a win-win. Absolutely. 63 00:03:03,920 --> 00:03:06,800 Absolutely. And more than that, it's also 64 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:08,700 very important in the water cycle because 65 00:03:08,700 --> 00:03:12,020 they transpire water. And you might say, 66 00:03:12,020 --> 00:03:13,380 well, that's getting rid of water. Except 67 00:03:13,380 --> 00:03:15,760 when you have the kind of concentrations 68 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:19,360 that you have in a rainforest, 80% of the 69 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:22,220 water that these trees put out end up coming 70 00:03:22,220 --> 00:03:25,260 back to the rainforest as rain. They create 71 00:03:25,260 --> 00:03:28,180 their own rain. That's why it's got that 72 00:03:28,180 --> 00:03:30,820 name. Well that's part of it. Part of it, at 73 00:03:30,820 --> 00:03:33,080 least the rain. That's part of it. I mean, 74 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:35,020 there's a lot of rain anyway in those areas 75 00:03:35,020 --> 00:03:36,980 for various reasons. But they do create 76 00:03:36,980 --> 00:03:38,640 their own rain. They're incredibly 77 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:40,940 important for the water cycle, they being 78 00:03:40,940 --> 00:03:43,340 the trees, the rainforest, because the 79 00:03:43,340 --> 00:03:46,540 roots hold in water and they in effect filter 80 00:03:46,540 --> 00:03:49,720 and cleanse the water. So it's just an 81 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:53,760 incredible system that benefits not only 82 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:56,120 the ecology, but also the human ecology and 83 00:03:56,120 --> 00:04:00,560 economy. The idea that it's not so bad to just 84 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:02,040 chop down a tree, you could just plant 85 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:04,860 another one. Well, it's good to replant 86 00:04:04,860 --> 00:04:07,020 another one, but it's secondary. You don't 87 00:04:07,020 --> 00:04:10,220 have a whole ecology. When you take down a 88 00:04:10,220 --> 00:04:13,540 tree and make a field and you then plow in 89 00:04:13,540 --> 00:04:17,100 soybeans, when you plow that ground, it 90 00:04:17,100 --> 00:04:20,100 releases water. It just dries out. Also it 91 00:04:20,100 --> 00:04:23,860 absorbs heat better. The ground does when it 92 00:04:23,860 --> 00:04:27,700 doesn't have the cover of the forest canopy. 93 00:04:27,700 --> 00:04:29,640 So they've done experiments, they've 94 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:32,620 actually measured it. When you have a field, 95 00:04:32,620 --> 00:04:38,160 the air, the field is drier and hotter. The 96 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:41,200 air, the atmosphere is warmer by the field. 97 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:43,920 And this is a propensity for droughts and 98 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:47,080 fires. And so locally, obviously, this 99 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:49,340 causes massive devastation for the local 100 00:04:49,340 --> 00:04:51,460 biodiversity, which impacts food sources 101 00:04:51,460 --> 00:04:53,760 for people who live in the area. But again, 102 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:56,240 thinking from our sort of planetary lens, 103 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:58,440 this also, I mean, people think about the 104 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:01,260 rainforest as being very impactful for the 105 00:05:01,260 --> 00:05:04,140 atmosphere of the earth as a whole. Right? 106 00:05:04,140 --> 00:05:06,160 Oh, yeah, without question. I mean, this CO2 107 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:08,740 is coming from somewhere. You know, it's 108 00:05:08,740 --> 00:05:10,280 coming from the atmosphere and this 109 00:05:10,280 --> 00:05:12,960 atmosphere is very well mixed. You know, 110 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:15,740 it's not a question that, you know, it just 111 00:05:15,740 --> 00:05:20,400 affects the local CO2, but nowhere else. 112 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:23,040 Well, CO2 is a planetary system. Exactly. 113 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:24,620 There's no such thing as only affecting the 114 00:05:24,620 --> 00:05:27,060 CO2 in the rainforest. The CO2 in the planet 115 00:05:27,060 --> 00:05:29,500 is a system and any CO2 that gets sucked in, as 116 00:05:29,500 --> 00:05:30,760 you say, it's produced somewhere, it was 117 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:32,440 actually produced in the north and it gets 118 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:35,620 sucked in. No, that's absolute. And a matter 119 00:05:35,620 --> 00:05:38,260 of fact, in Brazil, they say this 120 00:05:38,260 --> 00:05:40,520 deforestation is about half of their 121 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:44,420 greenhouse gas production because not only 122 00:05:44,420 --> 00:05:45,900 did the deforestation itself, which often 123 00:05:45,900 --> 00:05:47,700 means burning the forest, which of course 124 00:05:47,700 --> 00:05:50,140 releases CO2, all that CO2. I was talking 125 00:05:50,140 --> 00:05:51,800 about that stored in the tree. You burn a 126 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:54,420 tree, it's back up in the atmosphere. 127 00:05:54,420 --> 00:05:56,040 Actually, this relationship was described 128 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:57,520 by the climate scientist, Steven 129 00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:00,780 Schneider. He was a researcher at the US 130 00:06:00,780 --> 00:06:02,200 National Center for Atmospheric Research 131 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:05,120 and in 1981, he was interviewed as part of a 132 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:07,200 television program, a documentary looking 133 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:09,440 at the risks of climate change and he 134 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:12,080 outlined this relationship in a manner 135 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:14,020 quite similar to the way you just did. And so I 136 00:06:14,020 --> 00:06:16,080 led this into Steven Schneider. Remember 137 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:18,540 that coal and oil and gas is dead and 138 00:06:18,540 --> 00:06:20,820 compressed plant matter from hundreds of 139 00:06:20,820 --> 00:06:24,700 years ago. Well, a tree trunk is compressed 140 00:06:24,700 --> 00:06:26,860 carbon dioxide, if you will. It just hasn't 141 00:06:26,860 --> 00:06:29,620 been squeezed yet into fossil fuel form. So 142 00:06:29,620 --> 00:06:32,020 if you go into a forest, which took 50 or 100 143 00:06:32,020 --> 00:06:33,860 years to build and you chop it down and you 144 00:06:33,860 --> 00:06:36,140 burn all the wood now, you're getting back in 145 00:06:36,140 --> 00:06:38,600 a matter of hours, a CO2 that took many 146 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:41,920 decades to turn into the hydrocarbons of 147 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:44,160 that wood. And so here we just had Steven 148 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:46,280 Schneider in 1981 talking about 149 00:06:46,280 --> 00:06:48,880 deforestation's devastating impacts and 150 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:51,520 obviously sometimes lightning strikes or 151 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:53,980 sometimes there are brush fires. These are 152 00:06:53,980 --> 00:06:56,500 sometimes natural occurrences, but these 153 00:06:56,500 --> 00:06:59,360 fires in Brazil, in the rainforest, they 154 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:02,800 aren't accidents, are they? And so they're 155 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:04,340 doing it on purpose. We know there's been a 156 00:07:04,340 --> 00:07:06,280 lot of that not on purpose, but this is when 157 00:07:06,280 --> 00:07:08,540 they're doing it on purpose. They're doing 158 00:07:08,540 --> 00:07:11,340 it on purpose because they want to make the 159 00:07:11,340 --> 00:07:14,540 land exploitable. Exactly. It's hard to 160 00:07:14,540 --> 00:07:16,580 drill for oil when there are so many trees and 161 00:07:16,580 --> 00:07:18,380 plants and vegetation. Oh, it would be so 162 00:07:18,380 --> 00:07:19,660 much easier if you just burn the whole thing 163 00:07:19,660 --> 00:07:23,780 down and then drill baby drill. And it's good 164 00:07:23,780 --> 00:07:28,440 money to plant soybeans that will feed cows. 165 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:31,160 And soybeans aren't a bad crop. I have 166 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:34,060 nothing against soybeans. But the fact is, 167 00:07:34,060 --> 00:07:36,580 when you turn a rainforest into a field of 168 00:07:36,580 --> 00:07:39,140 soybeans, you're sucking down a lot less 169 00:07:39,140 --> 00:07:42,920 CO2. You're drying out the land. You are 170 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:47,800 using gasoline or diesel in your machines 171 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:51,680 that are going to harvest the soybeans. So it 172 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:54,920 produces a lot of greenhouse gases. And 173 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:57,100 you're also cutting out part of, I mean, this 174 00:07:57,100 --> 00:07:58,620 is why people are worried about destroying 175 00:07:58,620 --> 00:08:00,080 the rainforest. Like ultimately that 176 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:02,920 soybean crop is not absorbing CO2 and 177 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:05,640 releasing oxygen. Well, a little bit 178 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:07,700 because it does do photosynthesis. It does 179 00:08:07,700 --> 00:08:10,300 it, but it's just at a much lower level. Yeah, 180 00:08:10,300 --> 00:08:12,800 I believe it's about 50 times less effective 181 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:14,660 at sucking up carbon, right? That sort of 182 00:08:14,660 --> 00:08:17,040 scale. It's a huge difference. Think of a 183 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:19,160 few, you know, a thin layer of soybeans 184 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:25,380 versus a canopy of luscious foliage. So it's 185 00:08:25,380 --> 00:08:28,440 a big deal that they're making progress. And 186 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:30,760 part of the way they've made progress is the 187 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:33,320 people of Brazil had an election back last 188 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:37,400 November 2022. They got rid of a guy, 189 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:40,620 Bolsonaro, who they voted him out and they 190 00:08:40,620 --> 00:08:53,700 voted in Lula da Silva. Lula da Silva, who 191 00:08:53,700 --> 00:08:56,660 made a pledge. I mean, he started with a bang. 192 00:08:56,660 --> 00:08:58,440 The first things he did when he took office 193 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:00,960 was make a big splash of announcements about 194 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:03,500 the Amazon rainforest. He had campaigned 195 00:09:03,500 --> 00:09:05,400 partially on undoing the damage of his 196 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:08,300 predecessor. Absolutely. But of course, it 197 00:09:08,300 --> 00:09:09,960 takes a while for the changes to be seen if 198 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:12,480 you're looking at the actual number of trees 199 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:14,580 that were cut. And so obviously there still 200 00:09:14,580 --> 00:09:17,940 was some deforestation done in early 2023. 201 00:09:17,940 --> 00:09:21,620 In July 2022, we're talking about 1500 202 00:09:21,620 --> 00:09:24,740 square kilometers lost of the rainforest. 203 00:09:24,740 --> 00:09:28,320 That's about 600 square miles versus in July 204 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:32,540 2023 was only 500. So about a third 200 square 205 00:09:32,540 --> 00:09:34,780 miles lost. I say only. I mean, that's still 206 00:09:34,780 --> 00:09:37,880 not ideal. It's still not ideal. But if you 207 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:40,020 look at the last three months, it's a steady 208 00:09:40,020 --> 00:09:43,820 downward trend from May through July. 209 00:09:43,820 --> 00:09:46,360 Whereas the previous year, it was a steady 210 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:49,860 upward trend. So we this is just 211 00:09:49,860 --> 00:09:53,220 unequivocal. Lula was helped a lot by 212 00:09:53,220 --> 00:09:56,580 European Union rules. If the bad guys can't 213 00:09:56,580 --> 00:10:00,780 sell their ill begotten products illegally 214 00:10:00,780 --> 00:10:04,820 obtained by illegal deforestation, you 215 00:10:04,820 --> 00:10:07,540 know, whether it's lumber or whether it's 216 00:10:07,540 --> 00:10:10,960 soybeans, then a lot of the profit motive 217 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:13,540 goes away. And the European rules were 218 00:10:13,540 --> 00:10:16,600 apparently helpful in that way. What's 219 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:18,480 really important is a lot of this stuff is 220 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:21,280 illegal. So you have to have the will to 221 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:22,860 enforce the laws and you have to know they're 222 00:10:22,860 --> 00:10:25,440 being broken. And one of the great tools that 223 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:28,340 has come out is satellite imaging. You could 224 00:10:28,340 --> 00:10:30,600 tell when a part of the rainforest, even a 225 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:33,360 fairly relatively small area, is being 226 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:35,340 burned down. But I think we have to single out 227 00:10:35,340 --> 00:10:38,140 how uniquely invested in deforestation 228 00:10:38,140 --> 00:10:40,400 Bolsonaro was. It's part of a reason why this 229 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:42,120 reversal of this trend is so encouraging 230 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:45,100 because in the previous year, he had 231 00:10:45,100 --> 00:10:48,440 increased deforestation by 150 percent. 232 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:50,760 Overall, he increased it by about 75 233 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:53,020 percent. He was definitely on an upward 234 00:10:53,020 --> 00:10:57,120 trend and he made, I'm sure, a lot of people 235 00:10:57,120 --> 00:11:01,320 very wealthy and really hurt a lot of the 236 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:03,940 local indigenous peoples and other people 237 00:11:03,940 --> 00:11:06,420 who live in the Amazon and rely on the 238 00:11:06,420 --> 00:11:09,780 resources there. So under Bolsonaro, the 239 00:11:09,780 --> 00:11:13,020 winners were big industry and organized 240 00:11:13,020 --> 00:11:16,920 crime. So this is all good news. And part of 241 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:18,460 the reason this is so good is because people 242 00:11:18,460 --> 00:11:20,120 are really worried about tipping points. 243 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:22,240 There's going to be some point where the 244 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:25,060 rainforest can't be brought back. And of 245 00:11:25,060 --> 00:11:26,800 course, it's not just Brazil and other 246 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:28,280 countries have been active as well. But 247 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:31,060 Brazil having the most rainforest. And as 248 00:11:31,060 --> 00:11:34,380 you pointed out, Lula, he put himself on the 249 00:11:34,380 --> 00:11:36,640 line. He said, look, I'm going to do this and 250 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:38,800 he has been doing it. And I think we really 251 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:41,600 have to be grateful. He used his political 252 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:44,720 capital at the start of his new term in 253 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:46,400 January 2023 to make a bunch of big 254 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:48,220 announcements about safeguarding the 255 00:11:48,220 --> 00:11:49,420 rainforest, trying to honor his campaign 256 00:11:49,420 --> 00:11:50,820 promise and undo the damage of his 257 00:11:50,820 --> 00:11:53,500 predecessor. And one of the main ways in 258 00:11:53,500 --> 00:11:56,140 which this took shape is that he wanted to 259 00:11:56,140 --> 00:11:58,400 organize a conference of the rainforest 260 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:00,040 countries, which is something that has 261 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:01,500 happened before, but not exactly been a 262 00:12:01,500 --> 00:12:03,140 common occurrence. I think you told me 263 00:12:03,140 --> 00:12:05,520 you've seen the last one was 14 years ago. 264 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:07,600 Yes, I think that's what I read. The last one 265 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:11,580 of this particular organization was 14 266 00:12:11,580 --> 00:12:14,400 years ago. And this conference of 267 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:16,900 rainforest countries, they had a summit 268 00:12:16,900 --> 00:12:19,560 when this announcement was made. It was on 269 00:12:19,560 --> 00:12:23,240 August 8th and 9th. And they came together to 270 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:27,820 talk about these issues. So Lula convened a 271 00:12:27,820 --> 00:12:30,600 bunch of countries who contain portions of 272 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:31,980 the rainforest. Obviously 60 percent of the 273 00:12:31,980 --> 00:12:34,520 rainforest is in Brazil. So most of it is 274 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:36,220 there, but other countries have some claim 275 00:12:36,220 --> 00:12:37,780 to it. And basically Lula is using his 276 00:12:37,780 --> 00:12:39,160 political capital and thinking like, we 277 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:40,820 have something to offer to the world here. So 278 00:12:40,820 --> 00:12:43,520 he wanted to resurrect this conference, 279 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:45,240 which has happened three or four times. It's 280 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:47,260 not exactly been a regular occurrence, 281 00:12:47,260 --> 00:12:48,480 right? But the conference is called the 282 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:51,620 Amazon Cooperation Treaty Organization, 283 00:12:51,620 --> 00:12:54,680 Acto for short. And they discuss what sort of 284 00:12:54,680 --> 00:12:57,660 political power can they yield as a unit, 285 00:12:57,660 --> 00:12:59,500 because they all have parts of this great 286 00:12:59,500 --> 00:13:01,820 resource for humanity, which is the Amazon 287 00:13:01,820 --> 00:13:04,380 rainforest. And so as you point out, the 288 00:13:04,380 --> 00:13:06,260 latest meeting after 14 years of laying 289 00:13:06,260 --> 00:13:09,320 fallow just was convened by Lula in Belam in 290 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:13,800 August 8th, 2023. And this is the occasion at 291 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:16,000 which we got this great figure, this big 292 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:18,280 splashy media PR person, like, look how 293 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:19,940 great we're doing. We're much better than 294 00:13:19,940 --> 00:13:21,240 the previous. We're destroying the 295 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:24,380 rainforest, much less. Like, great. And so 296 00:13:24,380 --> 00:13:27,180 as part of the speeches during this Belam 297 00:13:27,180 --> 00:13:28,800 conference of Amazon rainforest 298 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:31,800 countries, Lula, who was at Honcho putting 299 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:33,200 this together, the Brazilian president 300 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:35,000 we've been talking about, he had some 301 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:37,260 beautiful quotes talking about how to look 302 00:13:37,260 --> 00:13:46,780 at the Amazon. And he said, That's very 303 00:13:46,780 --> 00:13:48,880 poetic. I mean, that's delightful. And he 304 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:50,100 was thinking actually, thinking about the 305 00:13:50,100 --> 00:13:51,840 weight of the Amazon in diplomatic 306 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:53,660 relations for these countries, sort of 307 00:13:53,660 --> 00:13:55,400 thinking on a foreign policy stage. And so 308 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:58,300 Lula said that the Amazon will become a 309 00:13:58,300 --> 00:14:00,500 passport for South American countries to 310 00:14:00,500 --> 00:14:03,360 establish a new way of interacting with the 311 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:05,220 world. So he's really thinking, here is a 312 00:14:05,220 --> 00:14:08,300 tool that we can use. And yet some of his 313 00:14:08,300 --> 00:14:10,980 critics accuse him, perhaps of having this 314 00:14:10,980 --> 00:14:13,120 very flowery language, these beautiful 315 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:16,280 metaphors, but perhaps that his policies 316 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:18,740 don't necessarily live up to the statement 317 00:14:18,740 --> 00:14:21,900 of good intentions that was released at the 318 00:14:21,900 --> 00:14:23,560 conference. There are legitimate 319 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:25,960 criticisms, and it's not only from other 320 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:27,820 politicians, which we'll get into, but 321 00:14:27,820 --> 00:14:31,220 there's also was an article in Nature, the 322 00:14:31,220 --> 00:14:33,480 very prestigious scientific journal, that 323 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:37,360 highlighted some criticisms of Lula's 324 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:40,900 environmental progress on August 10th. So 325 00:14:40,900 --> 00:14:44,080 at the end of this meeting, Nature, the very 326 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:46,740 prestigious science journal, published an 327 00:14:46,740 --> 00:14:49,980 article, How is Brazil's president Lula 328 00:14:49,980 --> 00:14:52,760 doing on climate? Experts rate his 329 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:55,560 performance. And their subheading is 330 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:57,240 deforestation is dropped, but researchers 331 00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:00,540 who spoke to Nature say he needs to take a 332 00:15:00,540 --> 00:15:03,680 stronger stance on fossil fuels. For 333 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:07,280 example, Luiz Marquez, a historian at the 334 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:09,140 National Center for Research on Energy and 335 00:15:09,140 --> 00:15:13,180 Materials in Brazil, said that he thought 336 00:15:13,180 --> 00:15:17,040 Lula's administration lacked a clarity on 337 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:20,180 energy policies, particularly when they 338 00:15:20,180 --> 00:15:21,860 are aligned with environmental 339 00:15:21,860 --> 00:15:25,420 protection. So he thought he was talking 340 00:15:25,420 --> 00:15:28,660 very specifically here about exploratory 341 00:15:28,660 --> 00:15:31,460 oil wells near the mouth of the Amazon River. 342 00:15:31,460 --> 00:15:34,680 That is concerned because there's a nearby 343 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:39,180 reef system, and that could be impacted. So 344 00:15:39,180 --> 00:15:41,220 Luiz Marquez criticized the Lula 345 00:15:41,220 --> 00:15:43,180 administration on their energy policies, 346 00:15:43,180 --> 00:15:45,360 specifically drawing attention to the 347 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:48,140 state-owned energy firm Petrobras, right, 348 00:15:48,140 --> 00:15:50,100 which has proposed drilling exploratory 349 00:15:50,100 --> 00:15:53,100 oil wells near the mouth of the Amazon River. 350 00:15:53,100 --> 00:15:55,260 So like this could threaten the ecosystem, 351 00:15:55,260 --> 00:15:56,880 right? We know what happens with drilling. 352 00:15:56,880 --> 00:15:58,840 As they put it when they discussed his 353 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:02,100 comments, they wondered why Lula would even 354 00:16:02,100 --> 00:16:04,600 entertain tapping into new fossil fuel 355 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:08,060 reserves, especially in such a risky area, 356 00:16:08,060 --> 00:16:11,280 if he cares so much about this Amazon system. 357 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:13,340 And the irony is that it's not like his hands 358 00:16:13,340 --> 00:16:15,840 are tied in this instance, because the oil 359 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:18,100 company proposing these drillings in the 360 00:16:18,100 --> 00:16:20,360 mouth of the Amazon is owned by the state. So 361 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:22,240 he has power over it. He could definitely 362 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:24,820 tell them to curtail this. This is where I 363 00:16:24,820 --> 00:16:27,120 think some other well-leaders saw an 364 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:28,980 incongruity, perhaps some level of 365 00:16:28,980 --> 00:16:31,260 hypocrisy, or at least saying that of course 366 00:16:31,260 --> 00:16:33,900 Lula's goals are laudable, and it's great to 367 00:16:33,900 --> 00:16:35,100 get everyone on the same page, although 368 00:16:35,100 --> 00:16:37,980 there were no hard commitments in the Bellum 369 00:16:37,980 --> 00:16:39,600 Declaration in the end of the day. So that's 370 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:41,320 also part of the idea that, well, it's a 371 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:42,580 statement of good intentions, and it's 372 00:16:42,580 --> 00:16:44,340 great to get everybody on the same page and 373 00:16:44,340 --> 00:16:46,440 talk about these good feelings, but it's 374 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:47,840 hard to imagine that it can be a stepping 375 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:49,220 stone to more concrete action unless 376 00:16:49,220 --> 00:16:50,480 they're more organized. And this was 377 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:52,800 precisely the reason that Gustavo Petro 378 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:55,140 dodged the photo op at the end of the 379 00:16:55,140 --> 00:16:56,700 conference. He decided he doesn't want to be 380 00:16:56,700 --> 00:16:59,060 a part of this. And so even on the diplomacy 381 00:16:59,060 --> 00:17:01,080 standpoint, part of the reason that you have 382 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:02,860 these conferences is you want to get a big 383 00:17:02,860 --> 00:17:04,500 photo opportunity at the end with all the 384 00:17:04,500 --> 00:17:06,220 well leaders smiling together and sort of 385 00:17:06,220 --> 00:17:08,540 all demonstrating unity on this action. And 386 00:17:08,540 --> 00:17:11,460 I mean, it wasn't a complete win, even on the 387 00:17:11,460 --> 00:17:12,880 diplomatic front for Lula. I mean, 388 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:15,480 Venezuela didn't show up. That's one thing. 389 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:19,099 And ironically, a month before Lula was 390 00:17:19,099 --> 00:17:21,180 elected, Colombia was holding elections 391 00:17:21,180 --> 00:17:23,480 and they elected someone who could arguably 392 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:26,240 be described as being even to the left of Lula 393 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:28,860 de Silva. So this guy, Gustavo Petro, 394 00:17:28,860 --> 00:17:32,380 recently elected in August 2022, president 395 00:17:32,380 --> 00:17:36,240 of Colombia. He didn't show up for the photo. 396 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:39,280 He decided like, no, I don't want to be a part 397 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:41,700 of this. Like, you guys aren't really 398 00:17:41,700 --> 00:17:43,600 putting your money where your mouth is. And 399 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:45,180 if we're meeting here, I would like this to be 400 00:17:45,180 --> 00:17:46,800 more substantive. So instead of just kind of 401 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:48,520 like trying to rephrase his claims, let's 402 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:51,100 kind of introduce you a little bit to this 403 00:17:51,100 --> 00:18:00,540 man, Gustavo Petro. Gustavo Petro's 404 00:18:00,540 --> 00:18:03,920 election in August 2022 was a turning point. 405 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:04,980 I mean, this was a very interesting 406 00:18:04,980 --> 00:18:08,120 opportunity. We discovered that he used his 407 00:18:08,120 --> 00:18:11,020 political capital at this venue to speak 408 00:18:11,020 --> 00:18:12,680 some truth to power and highlight some 409 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:14,860 uncomfortable truths. And so let's let's 410 00:18:14,860 --> 00:18:16,360 delve in. I picked a couple of quotes from 411 00:18:16,360 --> 00:18:18,120 actually his introduction on the world 412 00:18:18,120 --> 00:18:20,980 stage was that, as is the case with many world 413 00:18:20,980 --> 00:18:24,020 leaders, at the UN General Assembly, he did a 414 00:18:24,020 --> 00:18:26,160 big speech. And actually, he substantially 415 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:28,700 spoke about the Amazon rainforest in his 416 00:18:28,700 --> 00:18:30,640 introduction on the world stage. So here are 417 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:32,340 a couple of other things he said. He spoke 418 00:18:32,340 --> 00:18:35,700 about the jungle that tries to save us, us 419 00:18:35,700 --> 00:18:38,300 being humanity, is being destroyed. And 420 00:18:38,300 --> 00:18:40,860 he's addressing fellow world leaders. 421 00:18:40,860 --> 00:18:42,880 Imagine, you know, you've got got all the big 422 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:44,700 guns there later in front of you. And he's 423 00:18:44,700 --> 00:18:46,580 infecting. He's saying, you are only 424 00:18:46,580 --> 00:18:49,000 interested in my country to spray poison on 425 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:51,840 our jungles. You take our men to jail and you 426 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:53,580 put our women in exclusion. You are not 427 00:18:53,580 --> 00:18:55,660 interested in educating children, but in 428 00:18:55,660 --> 00:18:57,940 killing the jungle and extracting coal and 429 00:18:57,940 --> 00:19:00,040 oil from its entrails. The sponge that 430 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:02,340 absorbs the poison is useless. They prefer 431 00:19:02,340 --> 00:19:05,020 to throw more poison into the atmosphere. So 432 00:19:05,020 --> 00:19:07,100 we spoke about this metaphor, thinking 433 00:19:07,100 --> 00:19:09,800 about the Amazon rainforest as the earth's 434 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:12,480 lung, because it takes in CO2 and brings out 435 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:15,560 oxygen for us. But here you can see, yeah, 436 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:18,060 he's talking about it as a sponge, but it's 437 00:19:18,060 --> 00:19:20,260 the same kind of thing. It's the same kind of 438 00:19:20,260 --> 00:19:21,900 analogy. It's the same sort of idea. It's a 439 00:19:21,900 --> 00:19:24,460 carbon sponge that speaks the language 440 00:19:24,460 --> 00:19:26,700 difference of transiting it in literal 441 00:19:26,700 --> 00:19:28,040 terms. But I think that's interesting. And 442 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:30,520 so he speaks about how governments, the 443 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:32,340 government said he's speaking to, turn 444 00:19:32,340 --> 00:19:34,800 their backs to the evidence that he says, 445 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:37,560 science set the alarm bells ringing and we 446 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:40,860 stopped listening to it. And I mean, I think 447 00:19:40,860 --> 00:19:42,740 there's a lot there. I think he's really 448 00:19:42,740 --> 00:19:45,080 talking about how there's a failure of 449 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:47,660 humanity in the Amazon rainforest. It's an 450 00:19:47,660 --> 00:19:49,860 enormous deadly machinery that can 451 00:19:49,860 --> 00:19:51,780 extinguish humanity. And so he was really 452 00:19:51,780 --> 00:19:53,840 putting the question of the Amazon 453 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:56,160 rainforest and safeguarding it as an 454 00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:58,560 existential question for our species. And 455 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:01,200 so this is obviously why he emphasized this 456 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:03,840 so much in his first speech at the UN. But now 457 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:05,880 that he's being invited at the conference of 458 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:07,720 Amazon rainforest countries, you know, in 459 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:10,000 Belem, this was his opportunity to really 460 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:11,760 sort of lay out his philosophy for these 461 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:15,080 ideas. And so here are a few quotes from his 462 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:17,940 speeches at the Belem conference that might 463 00:20:17,940 --> 00:20:21,540 shine light onto why he wasn't interested in 464 00:20:21,540 --> 00:20:23,520 signing the declaration or lending his 465 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:26,160 legitimacy to this process. So let's talk 466 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:29,880 about what his objections were. He says, 467 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:32,220 politics is imprisoned by the economic 468 00:20:32,220 --> 00:20:35,060 interests that derive from fossil capital, 469 00:20:35,060 --> 00:20:38,080 which is why science despairs. Going back to 470 00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:39,620 this idea of politics in opposition to 471 00:20:39,620 --> 00:20:42,240 science and the idea that we stop listening 472 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:44,420 to the evidence. Now we described him as 473 00:20:44,420 --> 00:20:46,160 being to the left of Lula. So he's obviously 474 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:48,060 saying like, I would expect, you know, he's 475 00:20:48,060 --> 00:20:49,560 disappointed in the left. He's saying, I 476 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:51,260 expect this from the right wingers, you 477 00:20:51,260 --> 00:20:52,960 know, around the world, they've, they, they 478 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:55,500 don't care about science. They fascism is 479 00:20:55,500 --> 00:20:57,760 actively been a process of trying to deny 480 00:20:57,760 --> 00:20:59,900 science. This is, this is coherent. He says 481 00:20:59,900 --> 00:21:01,940 this works. But he really says he's 482 00:21:01,940 --> 00:21:04,380 disappointed that leftists or people who 483 00:21:04,380 --> 00:21:06,860 are left of center like Lula aren't being 484 00:21:06,860 --> 00:21:08,780 more forceful on this issue of the climate. 485 00:21:08,780 --> 00:21:11,280 He says basically that there's another kind 486 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:13,420 of denialism on the left. He talks about a 487 00:21:13,420 --> 00:21:15,540 denialism that allows us to postpone 488 00:21:15,540 --> 00:21:17,840 decisions. And so his example is actually 489 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:21,420 exactly referring to what critics of Lula 490 00:21:21,420 --> 00:21:23,880 have talked about. He says, and I quote, 491 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:25,440 letting the jungle be exploited for 492 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:27,100 hydrocarbons might not be a total 493 00:21:27,100 --> 00:21:29,220 contradiction, but apparently we're not 494 00:21:29,220 --> 00:21:31,280 even going to mention it in the declaration. 495 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:33,200 If the jungle produces oil, then you are 496 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:35,280 killing humanity in a double effect because 497 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:37,480 the rainforest can no longer operate as a 498 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:39,380 sponge. There you have that metaphor again. 499 00:21:39,380 --> 00:21:41,700 Now absolutely. And these are excellent 500 00:21:41,700 --> 00:21:45,200 criticisms. There was a lot of good that came 501 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:47,040 out of the declaration at the end of this 502 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:49,880 meeting. It speaks a lot about taking care of 503 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:51,720 indigenous people. It talks about one 504 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:53,820 health, which is much like planetary 505 00:21:53,820 --> 00:21:56,060 health, how we have to take care of not only 506 00:21:56,060 --> 00:21:59,460 the environment, but the people. But, but 507 00:21:59,460 --> 00:22:02,980 they didn't come up with hard targets for 508 00:22:02,980 --> 00:22:05,200 deforestation. That's a big deal. You 509 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:08,100 can't, you know, enforce rules without 510 00:22:08,100 --> 00:22:10,100 parameters. Exactly. Right. You can't, you 511 00:22:10,100 --> 00:22:11,880 know, you can't just say, hey, I have a 512 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:15,200 feeling that that's enough or too much or too 513 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:17,360 little. You have to have at least minimal 514 00:22:17,360 --> 00:22:19,220 targets and they couldn't come to that. Now, 515 00:22:19,220 --> 00:22:20,380 there was a certain amount of finger 516 00:22:20,380 --> 00:22:23,160 pointing going on, but it's a big gap. It's a 517 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:25,740 big loss not to have those. Yeah. Even 518 00:22:25,740 --> 00:22:28,480 compared to Lula's aims. But here we see that 519 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:30,500 the critique from the Colombian president 520 00:22:30,500 --> 00:22:32,520 Gustavo Petro is going further than that. 521 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:34,380 He's saying, even if we take your nice 522 00:22:34,380 --> 00:22:35,940 intentions and your nice sentiments, you 523 00:22:35,940 --> 00:22:36,900 know, he says, I'm not sure that they're 524 00:22:36,900 --> 00:22:38,320 going to happen. But even if you did this, 525 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:39,940 like, if you're still going to be drilling 526 00:22:39,940 --> 00:22:42,900 oil next to it, you're not actually doing the 527 00:22:42,900 --> 00:22:45,000 climate positive thing that you are 528 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:46,580 claiming to do. And therefore you cannot 529 00:22:46,580 --> 00:22:48,660 have diplomatic leverage as a result of this 530 00:22:48,660 --> 00:22:50,100 because you're just being as much of a 531 00:22:50,100 --> 00:22:52,000 polluter as anyone else. And then he even 532 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:53,760 takes issue with the premise of saying that, 533 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:55,980 like, somehow deforestation would be 534 00:22:55,980 --> 00:22:57,780 enough. I think we can agree with that. You 535 00:22:57,780 --> 00:23:00,000 know, he says that science tells us that even 536 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,140 if we arborized everywhere, that is to say, 537 00:23:02,140 --> 00:23:04,120 we planted trees over the entire surface of 538 00:23:04,120 --> 00:23:05,960 the earth, it would not be successful to 539 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:08,320 absorb the annual CO2 emissions. I think 540 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:10,660 this is on our website. It is on our website. 541 00:23:10,660 --> 00:23:13,320 These great statistics showing how much 542 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:15,920 land you would have to use. And the point is 543 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:18,060 that, well, there's a lot of land we could 544 00:23:18,060 --> 00:23:20,060 use, but there's a lot of land when we use that 545 00:23:20,060 --> 00:23:22,200 land, you know, there's opportunities 546 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:25,280 missed to say, grow food. And it's also maybe 547 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:27,480 in areas that don't support trees. A lot of 548 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:29,960 tree planting efforts don't even make it. 549 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:34,140 But even if we took every possible acre, we 550 00:23:34,140 --> 00:23:36,740 still would barely, you know, make more than 551 00:23:36,740 --> 00:23:39,380 a slight change. And it takes energy to plant 552 00:23:39,380 --> 00:23:41,600 trees. This is why I said before that it's 553 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:44,220 better not to cut a forest down than it is to 554 00:23:44,220 --> 00:23:49,160 plant trees. But still, he's right. That, I 555 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:51,240 remember hearing years ago, some people 556 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:54,620 just kind of starry eyed, you know, people, 557 00:23:54,620 --> 00:23:56,560 oh, all we have to do, trees will save us. 558 00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:58,740 Well, they're great. Plant trees, it's 559 00:23:58,740 --> 00:24:00,940 great, it's great. But be careful and don't 560 00:24:00,940 --> 00:24:03,480 expect it to solve your problems. Exactly. 561 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:05,420 It's not a beel and all solution. Even the 562 00:24:05,420 --> 00:24:07,620 most maximalist interpretation of 563 00:24:07,620 --> 00:24:09,880 planting trees that we could think of. As you 564 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:11,860 said, they would make a dent. And it's not to 565 00:24:11,860 --> 00:24:13,340 say that we shouldn't do this. Obviously, 566 00:24:13,340 --> 00:24:15,100 we've just explained the great positive 567 00:24:15,100 --> 00:24:17,340 effects of photosynthesis and how having 568 00:24:17,340 --> 00:24:18,960 trees in our immediate environment makes it 569 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:20,180 nicer to breathe. And for the entire 570 00:24:20,180 --> 00:24:23,520 atmosphere sets off some of the impacts of 571 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:24,960 climate catastrophe. But here we see 572 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:27,080 Gustavo Petro saying like, it's not 573 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:29,280 sufficient to absorb the massive amounts of 574 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:30,740 CO2 that we're putting out there. He's 575 00:24:30,740 --> 00:24:32,100 absolutely right. So then the question 576 00:24:32,100 --> 00:24:34,700 follows. He says, the reason why we're 577 00:24:34,700 --> 00:24:37,820 putting out so much CO2 as a species is not 578 00:24:37,820 --> 00:24:39,920 evenly distributed. He says, the richer you 579 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:42,000 are, the more you pollute. And so following 580 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,560 this logic, quoting him, he says, it is the 581 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:46,900 North's responsibility to leave fossil 582 00:24:46,900 --> 00:24:49,260 capital behind. And it is our 583 00:24:49,260 --> 00:24:51,500 responsibility, speaking as the South, the 584 00:24:51,500 --> 00:24:52,880 rainforest countries, it is our 585 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:55,120 responsibility to protect the sponge. So he 586 00:24:55,120 --> 00:24:56,360 says, everyone has their role to do, you 587 00:24:56,360 --> 00:24:58,080 know, because it's not saying you do either 588 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:00,840 or you have to both try to put out more oxygen 589 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:02,660 out there. And you have to limit the amount of 590 00:25:02,660 --> 00:25:04,160 CO2 to the atmosphere. You want to suck up 591 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:05,960 some CO2 with the trees. But if you don't put 592 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:07,480 out so much CO2 in the first place, for 593 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:09,180 instance, by not drilling into the Amazon 594 00:25:09,180 --> 00:25:12,320 River, that probably would limit the amount 595 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:13,640 of CO2 in the atmosphere in the first place. I 596 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:14,700 mean, it wouldn't probably, it would 597 00:25:14,700 --> 00:25:17,500 undoubtedly lead to less pollution, less 598 00:25:17,500 --> 00:25:19,640 CO2 in the atmosphere. So if your goal is to 599 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:21,160 have the Amazon suck up CO2, well, maybe if 600 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:22,380 you weren't putting out so much CO2 in the 601 00:25:22,380 --> 00:25:24,200 first place, you would be even more 602 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:25,700 effective with dealing with the CO2 that's 603 00:25:25,700 --> 00:25:27,200 here. You know, these things work in 604 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,340 conjunction is just to say, we cannot just do 605 00:25:29,340 --> 00:25:31,220 deforestation. That's his critique of this 606 00:25:31,220 --> 00:25:32,460 conference. He's saying, if you're going to 607 00:25:32,460 --> 00:25:33,660 be talking about climate impacts in the 608 00:25:33,660 --> 00:25:35,340 Amazon, well, let's make sure that the net 609 00:25:35,340 --> 00:25:37,360 balance of what's happening here is 610 00:25:37,360 --> 00:25:39,560 actually helping the climate. Otherwise, 611 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:41,480 we're just as hypocritical as those 612 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:42,960 right-wingers who don't care about science 613 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,120 as he talks about. And I think that last part 614 00:25:45,120 --> 00:25:48,300 is the most important. So he made really good 615 00:25:48,300 --> 00:25:51,620 points. It's easy for people who don't want 616 00:25:51,620 --> 00:25:54,780 to think too hard to just sort of say, no, this 617 00:25:54,780 --> 00:25:57,240 is just a guy going off. He, it was very 618 00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,480 thoughtful. And he's just right. He came at 619 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:02,780 this very, I think I showed you the speech and 620 00:26:02,780 --> 00:26:04,940 one of your first takeaways was how calm he 621 00:26:04,940 --> 00:26:06,660 is. He's very collected. This is not, you 622 00:26:06,660 --> 00:26:07,960 know, I said it's an invective because he 623 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:09,580 does take the world leaders that he's 624 00:26:09,580 --> 00:26:11,240 speaking to to toss because he thinks 625 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:13,320 there's a moral opportunity. No, if you 626 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:14,940 watch the speech, he's just sitting there 627 00:26:14,940 --> 00:26:18,860 talking like, guys, this is how it is. And 628 00:26:18,860 --> 00:26:21,220 he's right. You know, there's, there's, 629 00:26:21,220 --> 00:26:23,000 this brings up, of course, a lot of issues. 630 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:24,900 One of the things Lula asked for was more 631 00:26:24,900 --> 00:26:28,000 money from the North. And there's a huge 632 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:29,860 responsibility that the North has. There's 633 00:26:29,860 --> 00:26:32,660 a large justice issue here. I mean, the 634 00:26:32,660 --> 00:26:36,040 industrial revolution was massively 635 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:39,540 disproportionately done by people in the 636 00:26:39,540 --> 00:26:41,180 North. This is back to the framing of the 637 00:26:41,180 --> 00:26:42,420 North and South and that the countries in the 638 00:26:42,420 --> 00:26:44,400 right around the rainforest are simply 639 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:47,000 responsible for having put out a lot less CO2 640 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:48,880 than us in the North. That's, that's an 641 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:50,880 undeniable fact. Even goes back, you know, 642 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:52,540 Lula, we can say, yes, his, his declaration 643 00:26:52,540 --> 00:26:54,560 was perhaps not everything that he wished 644 00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:55,920 for. And certainly not everything that 645 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:57,260 Gustavo Petro, the Colombian president 646 00:26:57,260 --> 00:27:00,280 wanted. But Lula even said, as part of his big 647 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:02,200 speech to close off the conference, he 648 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:03,940 talked about how for two centuries 649 00:27:03,940 --> 00:27:05,900 industrialized nations filled the world's 650 00:27:05,900 --> 00:27:08,100 atmosphere with pollution. And now they 651 00:27:08,100 --> 00:27:10,860 need to pay their bit to restore part of that, 652 00:27:10,860 --> 00:27:13,050 which was wrecked by their pollution. You 653 00:27:13,050 --> 00:27:14,320 know, there's some logic here about 654 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:16,580 thinking about, you know, the North is 655 00:27:16,580 --> 00:27:18,680 responsible for this. It's totally logic 656 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:20,720 and it's totally fair. It's, it's 657 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:22,640 absolutely. But I think this goes back to the 658 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:24,080 critique of the Colombian president 659 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:25,600 because he's saying, okay, these are nice 660 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,100 statements. But how do you actually get to 661 00:27:28,100 --> 00:27:30,040 create that political will? How can you be 662 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:32,420 taken seriously by countries in the world if 663 00:27:32,420 --> 00:27:33,700 you're just coming out here and making 664 00:27:33,700 --> 00:27:35,860 statements? So he's very clearly saying 665 00:27:35,860 --> 00:27:37,660 like, he has concrete proposals. He's 666 00:27:37,660 --> 00:27:39,040 saying like, we've launched a proposal 667 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:40,420 that's part of the declaration. He's 668 00:27:40,420 --> 00:27:42,860 saying, you know, what you're doing Lula, 669 00:27:42,860 --> 00:27:45,520 it's fine. Like it's, it's not a bad thing. 670 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,100 But Gustavo Petro says, and I'm quoting, we 671 00:27:48,100 --> 00:27:51,340 cannot take this on either with the gifts of 672 00:27:51,340 --> 00:27:53,420 the North, nor with our own economic 673 00:27:53,420 --> 00:27:55,520 capacities. So he's saying that, you know, 674 00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:56,900 it's all fine. Well, you can beg as much as you 675 00:27:56,900 --> 00:27:59,220 want to, but you're not going to get to the 676 00:27:59,220 --> 00:28:01,680 amount of money that you need for it to not be 677 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:04,260 more attractive for these countries to 678 00:28:04,260 --> 00:28:07,000 destroy the rainforest. And so as you said, 679 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:08,820 there's one level on the regulatory side 680 00:28:08,820 --> 00:28:11,120 where you can say, well, make it very, you 681 00:28:11,120 --> 00:28:14,380 know, sanctions, make it punitive to buy 682 00:28:14,380 --> 00:28:16,040 lumber from the rainforest. But 683 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:18,080 ultimately, these things can sort of be 684 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:20,780 scattered and it's possible to find a buyer 685 00:28:20,780 --> 00:28:23,520 somewhere, usually. Or at least it's going 686 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:25,200 to be very difficult to enforce that level of 687 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:26,660 global cooperation. But it's certainly a 688 00:28:26,660 --> 00:28:29,940 solution. And another solution would be to 689 00:28:29,940 --> 00:28:32,440 ease up the financial burden on South 690 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:34,640 American countries. If you think about the 691 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:36,100 massive amount of debt that these 692 00:28:36,100 --> 00:28:37,820 countries, which is part of the reason that 693 00:28:37,820 --> 00:28:40,040 they are forced to such desperate economic 694 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:42,760 measures. So this is, this is where Pedro's 695 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:44,320 thinking is, it's got a very sort of 696 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:47,840 interesting turn. He says, what if we ask the 697 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:50,600 Western countries to forgive our debts in 698 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:52,900 exchange for protecting the rainforest, 699 00:28:52,900 --> 00:28:54,500 for taking this climate action? And he says, 700 00:28:54,500 --> 00:28:56,440 you can't do that unilaterally. You can't do 701 00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:58,000 it country by country because then the 702 00:28:58,000 --> 00:28:59,560 risk-creating agencies will always say, 703 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:00,720 oh, this country is defaulting on their 704 00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:01,920 debt. They're not paying debt. Oh, we can't 705 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:03,960 do that. So this is why he says, this is why 706 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:06,000 we're all here together. This is what we 707 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:08,100 could be doing. And he calls for a new 708 00:29:08,100 --> 00:29:10,360 worldwide Marshall plan. He says this debt 709 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:13,020 forgiveness is essentially a gift that 710 00:29:13,020 --> 00:29:15,140 could be given to ease up the financial 711 00:29:15,140 --> 00:29:17,760 burden on the South American rainforest 712 00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:19,840 countries. I think you make a good point. 713 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:23,840 Business as usual is not working. And so this 714 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:25,760 is why he says, like, you're not going to get 715 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:27,580 this done with another declaration, with a 716 00:29:27,580 --> 00:29:29,120 conference. Even though it's good that this 717 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:30,260 conference is happening and it hasn't 718 00:29:30,260 --> 00:29:31,540 happened in so long, like he couches all 719 00:29:31,540 --> 00:29:32,920 that. But he says, we need to actually build 720 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:34,320 some institutions here. You know, look at, 721 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:35,760 look at what happened, you know, the EU, 722 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:37,340 they're able to put a bunch of national 723 00:29:37,340 --> 00:29:39,360 countries to. I mean, it hasn't been easy and 724 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:41,160 it has had fits and starts. But ultimately 725 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:43,380 they did like build up the negotiating power 726 00:29:43,380 --> 00:29:45,680 as an economic block by aligning together. 727 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:47,920 He's saying we need to do that and we have our 728 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:49,540 leverage. Our leverage is the sponge, you 729 00:29:49,540 --> 00:29:51,260 know, the Amazon. And so he's saying we need 730 00:29:51,260 --> 00:29:53,860 an environmental justice court. And he took 731 00:29:53,860 --> 00:29:56,200 inspiration from Rafael Correa in Ecuador 732 00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:58,040 before him, who was also quite radical and 733 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:00,560 thinking about climate justice early on. 734 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:01,700 And so basically he's saying we should also 735 00:30:01,700 --> 00:30:04,140 create a rainforest NATO. So a military 736 00:30:04,140 --> 00:30:06,060 alliance as well. He wants to have a military 737 00:30:06,060 --> 00:30:08,600 to protect the rainforest and protect these 738 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,800 countries who are taking risks by 739 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:13,080 protecting the rainforest in that way. But 740 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:14,920 he's saying this, this should be part of a 741 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:16,460 mutually beneficial relationship. And 742 00:30:16,460 --> 00:30:18,640 obviously he says they should also fund and 743 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:20,660 we like this because obviously he's, he's 744 00:30:20,660 --> 00:30:22,760 appealing to listening to the experts. So 745 00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:24,320 he's saying we need to build a scientific 746 00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:27,620 research center specifically dedicated to 747 00:30:27,620 --> 00:30:30,420 researching the Amazon. And so I think these 748 00:30:30,420 --> 00:30:33,060 are very concrete measures that Gustavo 749 00:30:33,060 --> 00:30:38,220 Pedro offered to try to come up with a new form 750 00:30:38,220 --> 00:30:40,420 of Amazonian sovereignty. You know, 751 00:30:40,420 --> 00:30:42,280 obviously he says like it would respect each 752 00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:44,780 country's system, but there could be some 753 00:30:44,780 --> 00:30:47,360 coordination fighting together. And this 754 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:48,660 could be how they'd be able to make their 755 00:30:48,660 --> 00:30:51,140 demand to trade debt for climate action. 756 00:30:51,140 --> 00:30:55,200 Now, I agree. It's a lot to take in, but he 757 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:57,540 makes a lot of really strong points. The 758 00:30:57,540 --> 00:30:58,900 Colombian president was trying to make an 759 00:30:58,900 --> 00:31:00,660 appeal to the other countries saying like, 760 00:31:00,660 --> 00:31:02,880 it will only work if we all do this together. 761 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:04,580 Let's all stop drilling. Right now, 762 00:31:04,580 --> 00:31:06,380 obviously Lula is getting some pressure. 763 00:31:06,380 --> 00:31:08,100 He's coming on like he's the environmental 764 00:31:08,100 --> 00:31:10,200 leader. If he wants to be a global 765 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:12,940 environmental leader, he's going to have to 766 00:31:12,940 --> 00:31:15,000 step up his game. Environmentalists are 767 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:17,200 noticing that he's ignoring certain 768 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,700 ecosystems because they're not as sexy or 769 00:31:20,700 --> 00:31:23,660 the European Union hasn't taken, you know, 770 00:31:23,660 --> 00:31:26,380 the time to make the regulations. He's also 771 00:31:26,380 --> 00:31:30,420 doing the oil drilling. He's going to have to 772 00:31:30,420 --> 00:31:33,940 decide at some point if he can't push himself 773 00:31:33,940 --> 00:31:36,540 and his country to do more. I want to 774 00:31:36,540 --> 00:31:39,300 congratulate him for what he's done. This 775 00:31:39,300 --> 00:31:41,920 does not take anything away from what he's 776 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:45,260 doing. But yes, he could step up to the plate a 777 00:31:45,260 --> 00:31:47,940 little and do more. Of course. And that's 778 00:31:47,940 --> 00:31:50,940 what Petro is pushing him on. So just to leave 779 00:31:50,940 --> 00:31:52,300 us with some words on this, you know, we're 780 00:31:52,300 --> 00:31:54,720 thinking like Lula ultimately, according 781 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:57,040 to Gustavo Petzl, the Colombian president, 782 00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:00,260 he has also fallen prey to this capitalist 783 00:32:00,260 --> 00:32:02,900 system of greed, really. Pedro tells us life 784 00:32:02,900 --> 00:32:04,660 on the planet is telling us we must 785 00:32:04,660 --> 00:32:07,440 completely rethink the economic system. 786 00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:09,100 And so he calls for another measure of 787 00:32:09,100 --> 00:32:10,360 wealth. He says another measure of wealth we 788 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:12,120 should consider, unlike the one that 789 00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:14,380 skyrocketed during the 20th century, would 790 00:32:14,380 --> 00:32:16,900 be something we could call a decarbonized 791 00:32:16,900 --> 00:32:19,300 prosperity. So this is akin sort of to the 792 00:32:19,300 --> 00:32:20,600 degrowth movement. He's saying we should 793 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:22,680 think about a way of looking at a country's 794 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:26,080 success that has to do with its economic 795 00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:28,160 solvency, has to do with how well the 796 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:29,520 country's doing financially, but should 797 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:31,640 also weigh in as part of this measure of the 798 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:33,220 country's success. Should also consider 799 00:32:33,220 --> 00:32:37,120 whether or not the gains are coming from 800 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:39,100 carbon. Because ultimately, if an economy 801 00:32:39,100 --> 00:32:42,240 is producing a lot and producing a lot of 802 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:45,040 carbon, then it is not a beneficial economy 803 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:50,940 if you really think about it. And so I'm with 804 00:32:50,940 --> 00:32:54,400 him. I mean, these are big ideas that who 805 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:58,220 knows what can happen with them. But we need 806 00:32:58,220 --> 00:33:00,480 big ideas. We need to at least be discussing 807 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:03,720 them honestly and not fearfully. We can't 808 00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:05,780 just say, oh no, that's just 809 00:33:05,780 --> 00:33:08,360 anti-capitalist. No, we have to stop and 810 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:11,200 think, what are we really trying to get out of 811 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:13,940 life? What are we really trying to get out of 812 00:33:13,940 --> 00:33:18,500 an economy? And a GDP is just a very limited 813 00:33:18,500 --> 00:33:20,580 measure, a gross domestic product. You 814 00:33:20,580 --> 00:33:21,940 know, in other words, the goods and 815 00:33:21,940 --> 00:33:25,140 services. Because the greatest good is not 816 00:33:25,140 --> 00:33:27,640 just what happens to be the greatest good of 817 00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:29,740 people who can afford it. No, if anything, 818 00:33:29,740 --> 00:33:31,480 the richer people are, the more they 819 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:32,840 pollute. I mean, you could argue there's a 820 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:35,160 direct correlation. The more responsible 821 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:37,300 they are, and ethically, they've got to 822 00:33:37,300 --> 00:33:40,620 think more about it. And I hope that our 823 00:33:40,620 --> 00:33:43,300 listeners will and vote for the right people 824 00:33:43,300 --> 00:33:48,240 who will at least start trying to solve 825 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:51,120 problems and not create new problems. Yeah, 826 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:54,360 and voting is good. Actually, it just so 827 00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:56,700 happens there was recently a vote in Ecuador 828 00:33:56,700 --> 00:33:59,460 that plays into this dynamic. We saw the 829 00:33:59,460 --> 00:34:01,260 Colombian president Gustavo Petro. He 830 00:34:01,260 --> 00:34:03,680 said, guys, we need to stop drilling. We 831 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:06,460 can't be coherent in terms of climate action 832 00:34:06,460 --> 00:34:08,920 if we're drilling oil. And so Ecuador just 833 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:12,679 had a vote on August 20th. And the results 834 00:34:12,679 --> 00:34:14,780 were directly in line with this demand. The 835 00:34:14,780 --> 00:34:17,480 people spoke up. There was a few things at 836 00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:19,719 stake in this election. There was the 837 00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:22,659 presidential election had its first round. 838 00:34:22,659 --> 00:34:25,880 And it so happens, an ally of Rafael Corera, 839 00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:28,179 the guy who was an inspiration to our 840 00:34:28,179 --> 00:34:29,980 Colombian friend Gustavo Petro in their 841 00:34:29,980 --> 00:34:31,880 proposal for building up a military 842 00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:34,100 alliance to protect the Amazon and to make 843 00:34:34,100 --> 00:34:37,639 this demand for debt justice. So this guy was 844 00:34:37,639 --> 00:34:39,480 very influential in speaking these ideas 845 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:41,320 early on for his presidency in Ecuador 846 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:45,800 between 2007 and 2017. And so basically we 847 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:47,540 have here in Colombia, Gustavo Petro 848 00:34:47,540 --> 00:34:49,520 picking up the torch from the Ecuadorian 849 00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:51,080 president. And now it just seems like 850 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:53,380 Ecuador is about to pick up the track again. 851 00:34:53,380 --> 00:34:55,540 They're saying, yes, let's take action. 852 00:34:55,540 --> 00:34:58,840 Let's stop drilling oil. The other good 853 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:01,200 piece of news was they on the first round of 854 00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:02,880 this presidential election, Luisa 855 00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:06,340 Gonzalez, who's a close ally of Raul Corera, 856 00:35:06,340 --> 00:35:09,360 was in the prime position to win. So it seems 857 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:11,800 as though in October we'll have another 858 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:15,000 sympathetic government in the rainforest 859 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:19,240 area to stop drilling oil following this 860 00:35:19,240 --> 00:35:21,440 momentum. And it's fantastic that people 861 00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:24,280 have spoken. This is exactly what we were 862 00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:25,900 talking about in terms of getting people 863 00:35:25,900 --> 00:35:28,600 involved. And so I think perhaps you can put 864 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:32,420 some more details on this momentous 865 00:35:32,420 --> 00:35:36,540 electoral result. 59% of Ecuadorian people 866 00:35:36,540 --> 00:35:40,360 who turned up to vote on August 20th, 2023, 867 00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:43,800 voted for protecting this Yosunni reserve 868 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:47,560 and banning the practice of oil drilling. 869 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:50,680 This is just amazing, Luc. I'm just over the 870 00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:53,800 moon about this. This reserve, this Yosunni 871 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:55,900 region, is thought to be one of the most 872 00:35:55,900 --> 00:35:58,680 biologically diverse regions in the entire 873 00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:03,360 world. It has just vast amounts of different 874 00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:06,920 species. It's luxuriant. It's an area where 875 00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:10,060 there are two tribal groups that choose not 876 00:36:10,060 --> 00:36:12,440 to be engaged. There are other indigenous 877 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:15,200 and other peoples who also rely on this 878 00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:19,500 environment. This is just a big win for not 879 00:36:19,500 --> 00:36:22,040 drilling in the Amazon. And hopefully this 880 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:25,040 is something that Lula and the others will 881 00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:27,960 hear. And it's very much in line with what 882 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:30,980 Columbia is saying. You can't just isolate 883 00:36:30,980 --> 00:36:33,840 one activity and say one and done. Yeah, and 884 00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:35,720 that's the power of this multilateral 885 00:36:35,720 --> 00:36:37,920 systems thinking. That's the only way in 886 00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:39,420 which you can really think about climate 887 00:36:39,420 --> 00:36:40,640 issues. That's why we keep bringing this 888 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:42,840 language of the species. Because it's not 889 00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:45,080 about these sort of national parochial 890 00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:46,820 identities or questions of sovereignty. 891 00:36:46,820 --> 00:36:49,520 It's about thinking about collective 892 00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:52,480 action issues. And I think on that issue, 893 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:55,000 it's very interesting to see how we have this 894 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:57,740 through line from, you know, the Coreira 895 00:36:57,740 --> 00:37:16,040 Presidency of 2007 to 2017 in Ecuador. It's 896 00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:18,740 very interesting to see how we have this 897 00:37:18,740 --> 00:37:21,480 through line from, you know, the Coreira 898 00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:24,960 Presidency of 2007 to 2017 in Ecuador to the 899 00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:26,960 Colombian President. Because the proposal 900 00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:29,260 that the Colombian President just made is 901 00:37:29,260 --> 00:37:31,080 very similar to the thing that Ecuador did 902 00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:33,700 when he first got into office. In 2007, when 903 00:37:33,700 --> 00:37:36,040 he was newly elected, he offered the world to 904 00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:39,880 keep 850 million barrels of oil in the 905 00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:42,160 ground. And he said, in exchange for this, 906 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:45,140 what if we created a fund for half of the value 907 00:37:45,140 --> 00:37:47,320 of that oil? So he said, what if the countries 908 00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:51,040 of the world give Ecuador $3.6 billion in 909 00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:53,220 exchange for not touching the oil reserves? 910 00:37:53,220 --> 00:37:56,180 And obviously this bid failed. But here we 911 00:37:56,180 --> 00:37:58,860 see these things don't just die on the vine. 912 00:37:58,860 --> 00:38:00,800 These things have clearly been part of a long 913 00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:03,100 history of ideas and they fail until they 914 00:38:03,100 --> 00:38:05,000 don't, you know. And you can have the history 915 00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:07,620 of any major social change as being it failed 916 00:38:07,620 --> 00:38:10,180 many times until it didn't. You know, that's 917 00:38:10,180 --> 00:38:13,300 the only way in which people make a 918 00:38:13,300 --> 00:38:15,740 difference, you know. We don't memorialize 919 00:38:15,740 --> 00:38:17,380 the gazillion times in which the problem 920 00:38:17,380 --> 00:38:20,080 failed. But that is part, every brick is part 921 00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:21,740 of that edifice to think of it in more 922 00:38:21,740 --> 00:38:23,320 scientific terms that might speak to you. 923 00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:25,520 It's that classic Newton quote, right? No 924 00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:27,320 one does it alone. You're standing on the 925 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:28,840 shoulders of giants. You're building on the 926 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:30,720 work that's been done before you. And so here 927 00:38:30,720 --> 00:38:32,020 we have the Colombian President Gustavo 928 00:38:32,020 --> 00:38:34,720 Petro building on this sort of, again, what 929 00:38:34,720 --> 00:38:37,760 might seem like quite a wild proposal from 930 00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:40,000 the Ecuadorian President Rafael Correa in 931 00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:42,480 2007 to say like, hey guys, you know, I've got 932 00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:44,840 all this oil and it can either stay in the 933 00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:46,980 ground or I'm going to drill it. If I drill it, 934 00:38:46,980 --> 00:38:48,740 it'll make us a lot of money, but it'll be bad 935 00:38:48,740 --> 00:38:51,000 for like the larger collective us, like 936 00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,420 humanity. And so why didn't we do something? 937 00:38:53,420 --> 00:38:57,120 And obviously that didn't work then. But the 938 00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:01,780 idea of there being some economic incentive 939 00:39:01,780 --> 00:39:05,760 for countries to do this is not a new idea. 940 00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:09,340 This is not some radical idea that's holding 941 00:39:09,340 --> 00:39:12,060 the wealthy country's hostage. It's in all 942 00:39:12,060 --> 00:39:15,800 our interests. This idea of sharing the 943 00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:18,980 economic burden is not some pie in the sky, 944 00:39:18,980 --> 00:39:25,060 unprecedented idea. Debt relief has, as 945 00:39:25,060 --> 00:39:29,440 Petro has suggested, is not some fantasy. We 946 00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:33,040 have been doing that since for the last 30 947 00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:35,460 years. The United States has given almost $2 948 00:39:35,460 --> 00:39:38,760 billion in debt for nature swaps involving 949 00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:42,100 21 low and middle income countries. And 950 00:39:42,100 --> 00:39:44,660 other high income countries have kicked in 951 00:39:44,660 --> 00:39:46,540 another billion dollars for these kinds of 952 00:39:46,540 --> 00:39:49,000 efforts. And there's evidence it works. So 953 00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:52,800 again, almost $3 billion of debt, again, a 954 00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:55,340 big weight sucking up the gains of the South 955 00:39:55,340 --> 00:39:57,700 American economies, being lifted away in 956 00:39:57,700 --> 00:39:59,800 order to protect nature. These are the kind 957 00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:03,560 of geopolitical decisions that the 958 00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:05,060 Ecuadorian President and the Colombian 959 00:40:05,060 --> 00:40:07,100 President, and even in some ways Lula, have 960 00:40:07,100 --> 00:40:09,800 been calling for. You have to think about 961 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,860 cooperation and ways in which the countries 962 00:40:12,860 --> 00:40:15,220 who have these environmental things that we 963 00:40:15,220 --> 00:40:18,340 all want to safeguard can be part of a system. 964 00:40:18,340 --> 00:40:21,500 So this is not something that hasn't been 965 00:40:21,500 --> 00:40:24,180 done. Maybe it's something we just have to 966 00:40:24,180 --> 00:40:27,280 consider doing on a much larger scale. 967 00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:29,300 Especially when a nation like this, they 968 00:40:29,300 --> 00:40:31,600 didn't hold us hostage. They didn't say, 969 00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:33,260 give me money or we won't do it. They just 970 00:40:33,260 --> 00:40:37,700 said, we are not going to destroy nature. So I 971 00:40:37,700 --> 00:40:40,500 applaud Ecuador. And I think we have to 972 00:40:40,500 --> 00:40:45,700 consider that such debt relief or other 973 00:40:45,700 --> 00:40:50,820 kinds of financial relief certainly has not 974 00:40:50,820 --> 00:40:52,680 been off the table and should not be off the 975 00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:56,200 table. When you said it's not a hostage 976 00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:58,760 situation, the power dynamic is completely 977 00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:01,540 inverted. Yes, the countries in the global 978 00:41:01,540 --> 00:41:05,100 south have oil, which is a resource that if it 979 00:41:05,100 --> 00:41:09,660 stays in the ground could benefit us oil. You 980 00:41:09,660 --> 00:41:11,920 just had a Brooklyn accent. That's all. 981 00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:16,460 Anyway, go ahead. Sorry. So yeah, they have 982 00:41:16,460 --> 00:41:19,080 this, but it's not like the leverage is being 983 00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:20,380 exerted by the countries in the global 984 00:41:20,380 --> 00:41:22,960 south. They're not asking for money, by the 985 00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:25,660 way. Even back in 2007, the Ecuadorian 986 00:41:25,660 --> 00:41:27,840 President was asking for debt relief. He's 987 00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:32,240 asking for forgiving debts. And that's the 988 00:41:32,240 --> 00:41:34,340 through line throughout this. This sounds 989 00:41:34,340 --> 00:41:36,860 like some great sort of, oh my God, massive 990 00:41:36,860 --> 00:41:38,640 sums of money are required. But actually, 991 00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:42,440 the reasons countries in the rainforest 992 00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:44,280 region, the Amazon rainforest, South 993 00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:46,900 American countries, these countries, the 994 00:41:46,900 --> 00:41:48,860 reason why the US is in a position to forgive 995 00:41:48,860 --> 00:41:51,780 so much debt to them is because the US has put 996 00:41:51,780 --> 00:41:53,700 those countries in those situations in a lot 997 00:41:53,700 --> 00:41:55,680 of the time. You have to sort of think back to 998 00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:58,140 the power dynamic here, isn't that the 999 00:41:58,140 --> 00:42:00,360 southern countries are sort of holding 1000 00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:02,040 hostage their resources? They're saying, 1001 00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:05,700 guys, can you take the boot off us a little bit 1002 00:42:05,700 --> 00:42:08,080 so we can breathe and not just give all our 1003 00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:10,640 money back to you guys? In exchange for that, 1004 00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:13,660 we will not go for the thing that would make us 1005 00:42:13,660 --> 00:42:15,560 the most money, but destroy the planet. Like 1006 00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:17,100 it's a trade off. They're saying, can you 1007 00:42:17,100 --> 00:42:20,060 take your boot off us a little bit by 1008 00:42:20,060 --> 00:42:23,800 forgiving debt? Well, it's not even just so 1009 00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:28,700 that we don't have to spend the money or need 1010 00:42:28,700 --> 00:42:31,860 the money. We want to protect our lands. 1011 00:42:31,860 --> 00:42:33,720 We're doing something that you should be 1012 00:42:33,720 --> 00:42:36,100 very interested in, protecting the 1013 00:42:36,100 --> 00:42:38,960 rainforest. And it's a win-win, it really 1014 00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:42,500 is. I think that we need to have the courage 1015 00:42:42,500 --> 00:42:46,180 and wisdom and we have before, again, it's 1016 00:42:46,180 --> 00:42:49,320 not unprecedented to make these kinds of 1017 00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:53,520 things happen and to really be grateful to 1018 00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:56,720 the people of Ecuador for looking out for our 1019 00:42:56,720 --> 00:43:00,280 all universal heritage. Right. I mean, the 1020 00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:02,900 specifics of the region in which they voted 1021 00:43:02,900 --> 00:43:05,680 to ban oil drilling are quite interesting. 1022 00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:08,440 You mentioned they have a unique 1023 00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:13,060 biodiversity. This park is, as I said, one of 1024 00:43:13,060 --> 00:43:15,820 the most biologically diverse on earth and 1025 00:43:15,820 --> 00:43:19,380 this goes for all sorts of living things, 1026 00:43:19,380 --> 00:43:22,360 amphibians, birds, mammals, plants. And I 1027 00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:23,800 think it's interesting also to consider 1028 00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:26,780 within the Yasuni region. This is a place 1029 00:43:26,780 --> 00:43:29,240 because of its rich biodiversity, it had 1030 00:43:29,240 --> 00:43:31,780 been protected. Oil companies only started 1031 00:43:31,780 --> 00:43:35,540 drilling in the Yasuni region in 2016. And it 1032 00:43:35,540 --> 00:43:37,460 just so happens that two thirds of that oil 1033 00:43:37,460 --> 00:43:39,620 was going to the United States. Right. So 1034 00:43:39,620 --> 00:43:41,240 this is all part of an interconnected 1035 00:43:41,240 --> 00:43:45,740 system. The Yasuni region was being 1036 00:43:45,740 --> 00:43:47,720 pillaged and it was pillaged for half a 1037 00:43:47,720 --> 00:43:49,960 decade. And thankfully the great people of 1038 00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:54,640 Ecuador put a stop to it by getting out there 1039 00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:57,660 and casting their votes. And that is 1040 00:43:57,660 --> 00:44:00,500 sometimes all that you can do. And voting is 1041 00:44:00,500 --> 00:44:03,300 good, but as we've seen, you cannot tackle 1042 00:44:03,300 --> 00:44:05,220 these issues of international cooperation 1043 00:44:05,220 --> 00:44:08,620 on a purely local basis. You have to have some 1044 00:44:08,620 --> 00:44:09,940 coordination, which is exactly what the 1045 00:44:09,940 --> 00:44:12,220 Colombian president was hoping that this 1046 00:44:12,220 --> 00:44:14,800 conference, the ACTO conference in Belom in 1047 00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:17,020 August 2023 could have become. Even though 1048 00:44:17,020 --> 00:44:19,560 you can't tackle it totally on a local basis, 1049 00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:21,740 think globally, act locally. We as 1050 00:44:21,740 --> 00:44:24,800 individuals have to act within the 1051 00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:27,740 frameworks we have. And I think we have to 1052 00:44:27,740 --> 00:44:31,080 entertain big answers for big questions, 1053 00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:35,000 big responses to big problems. And what 1054 00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:37,720 shape that's going to take is going to be 1055 00:44:37,720 --> 00:44:40,020 something that we're going to have to hammer 1056 00:44:40,020 --> 00:44:43,080 out. We have to celebrate the progress that 1057 00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:45,800 we are making. There has been progress on 1058 00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:49,940 climate on various levels. We have new 1059 00:44:49,940 --> 00:44:52,700 industries and specifically in the 1060 00:44:52,700 --> 00:44:54,800 rainforest. This is a real thing. I mean, 1061 00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:57,840 we're all in it together, but some of us are 1062 00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:00,180 suffering a lot more than others. Some of us 1063 00:45:00,180 --> 00:45:01,920 have climate bunkers. And those who are 1064 00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:03,920 suffering more than others aren't 1065 00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:05,680 necessarily the ones who are polluting the 1066 00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:08,420 most. As a matter of fact, they as a rule are 1067 00:45:08,420 --> 00:45:10,800 not the ones who are polluting the most. So 1068 00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:13,180 next time on Your Planet, Your Health, on 1069 00:45:13,180 --> 00:45:15,320 that lovely note of thinking about these big 1070 00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:16,920 thorny problems and the problems of 1071 00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:18,620 collective action, I mean, these are all 1072 00:45:18,620 --> 00:45:20,160 nice philosophical notes to think about. 1073 00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:22,560 And ultimately, I hope that, you know, if you 1074 00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:24,600 happen to be a South American leader, 1075 00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:27,380 perhaps you can see it in your heart to act and 1076 00:45:27,380 --> 00:45:29,100 unite with the rainforest countries. 1077 00:45:29,100 --> 00:45:30,480 Obviously, you know, I'm just saying, like, 1078 00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:32,580 it's interesting to think about the only way 1079 00:45:32,580 --> 00:45:36,180 to tackle this is by working with many 1080 00:45:36,180 --> 00:45:38,260 different leaders. And the fact that there 1081 00:45:38,260 --> 00:45:40,880 is such consensus on the base, like, people 1082 00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:43,540 see the effects of climate change right now. 1083 00:45:43,540 --> 00:45:45,620 I mean, there has been a lot of efforts to try 1084 00:45:45,620 --> 00:45:48,220 and obfuscate the science, which we'll be 1085 00:45:48,220 --> 00:45:52,760 talking about a lot more next time. But this 1086 00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:56,000 is still, ultimately, it's been an uphill 1087 00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:58,620 battle. But people get it. People see the 1088 00:45:58,620 --> 00:46:00,280 impacts of the climate. And ultimately, now 1089 00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:02,240 it's a question of, like, getting the 1090 00:46:02,240 --> 00:46:05,220 politicians to organize. And the only way 1091 00:46:05,220 --> 00:46:06,800 you can do that is by having pressure from 1092 00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:08,520 below. So perhaps if you're not a South 1093 00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:10,640 American leader, you do not have a part of the 1094 00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:12,760 rainforest in your country, you can still be 1095 00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:14,740 part of that base putting pressure, you 1096 00:46:14,740 --> 00:46:17,100 know, and, well, that's still something. 1097 00:46:17,100 --> 00:46:20,740 It's something. And as you said, there is a 1098 00:46:20,740 --> 00:46:22,580 very good question as to why we're not 1099 00:46:22,580 --> 00:46:26,640 further along on all this. And that answer is 1100 00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:29,080 the oil companies. So we're going to talk 1101 00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:32,500 about that next. Stay planet, stay healthy. 1102 00:46:32,500 --> 00:46:35,600 Let's stay planet, stay healthy, and we'll 1103 00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:35,820 talk soon.