WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.789 --> 00:00:06.320 Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs Podcast, the show for dog lovers who 00:00:06.340 --> 00:00:12.000 see dogs not as toys or tools, but wise souls worth our respect and care. 00:00:12.580 --> 00:00:14.559 I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host. 00:00:15.320 --> 00:00:20.560 I talk to poor some humans, people who do great work for dogs and their people. 00:00:21.099 --> 00:00:23.360 So come and join us for today's conversation. 00:00:25.166 --> 00:00:26.866 Anke: Hello and welcome, Annie. 00:00:27.496 --> 00:00:30.706 I can't believe I've never had you on the podcast. 00:00:30.716 --> 00:00:32.926 So I'm very excited to have you here. 00:00:33.716 --> 00:00:34.306 Me too. 00:00:34.546 --> 00:00:35.286 Happy to be here. 00:00:35.926 --> 00:00:36.936 Thanks for having me. 00:00:37.316 --> 00:00:41.706 Alrighty, so let's start out how I always start out. 00:00:41.716 --> 00:00:45.286 Let people know where in this lovely world you're based and 00:00:45.596 --> 00:00:47.096 what's your business with dogs? 00:00:48.486 --> 00:00:52.326 Annie: I am currently based in Utah, which was not part of my life 00:00:52.326 --> 00:00:57.956 plan ever to be in Utah, but we moved here from Colorado years now. 00:00:58.006 --> 00:00:59.706 This is the longest I've ever lived anywhere. 00:01:00.196 --> 00:01:01.826 And I escaped from Texas. 00:01:01.826 --> 00:01:04.661 I'm sorry to The patriots who love Texas. 00:01:04.671 --> 00:01:05.561 It was not for me. 00:01:05.921 --> 00:01:09.331 I lived there 46 years and did not like it. 00:01:09.411 --> 00:01:10.651 I don't like the humidity. 00:01:10.651 --> 00:01:14.541 I don't like all the things trying to kill you like fire ants and rattlesnakes. 00:01:15.461 --> 00:01:16.991 And I'm a mountain person. 00:01:17.051 --> 00:01:18.891 I have to have mountains and I don't know why. 00:01:19.196 --> 00:01:19.856 I just am. 00:01:20.136 --> 00:01:22.916 So we moved to Colorado and then we ended up, because of my husband's job 00:01:22.916 --> 00:01:25.836 change here, we're kind of near Park City, if people have heard of that. 00:01:25.836 --> 00:01:26.766 It's a big ski area. 00:01:26.776 --> 00:01:28.306 We're not, we're in the town below. 00:01:28.816 --> 00:01:30.386 Um, and I like, I like Utah. 00:01:30.436 --> 00:01:31.246 I like cold weather. 00:01:31.246 --> 00:01:31.986 I like mountains. 00:01:31.986 --> 00:01:37.076 It's, people are outside more because it's all, you know, we, we say it, well, we 00:01:37.076 --> 00:01:39.056 took it, I think, from maybe the Swedish. 00:01:39.326 --> 00:01:40.186 There's no bad weather. 00:01:40.186 --> 00:01:41.246 There's only bad clothing. 00:01:41.526 --> 00:01:45.216 So we get literally outside four, four seasons a year, unlike Texas, which is 00:01:45.516 --> 00:01:48.346 in the south to me, which is hot eight, eight or nine months out of the year. 00:01:48.346 --> 00:01:48.556 So. 00:01:49.016 --> 00:01:52.666 That's why I ended up in Utah and, um, I really like it. 00:01:52.666 --> 00:01:56.416 It took, there's a culture adjustment coming from flatlands of Texas to 00:01:56.416 --> 00:01:57.866 the mountains and snow and all that. 00:01:58.306 --> 00:02:02.896 And I have been working with dogs for 25 plus years. 00:02:02.896 --> 00:02:05.306 You start, stop counting after a while because that's just rude. 00:02:05.306 --> 00:02:06.376 You don't want to add all that up. 00:02:06.816 --> 00:02:08.506 And I came out of rescue work. 00:02:08.676 --> 00:02:14.356 And I say that the rescue, um, animals, I was the person in Central Texas. 00:02:15.051 --> 00:02:18.081 Rural, going to rural shelters and picking the dogs that we 00:02:18.081 --> 00:02:19.091 would put into our program. 00:02:19.091 --> 00:02:21.681 It was through Austin Dog Rescue back when they started. 00:02:22.166 --> 00:02:25.396 in the 90s to 2010, a while ago. 00:02:25.966 --> 00:02:31.516 And, um, there I saw a lot of my favorite breeds, German Shepherds, Big Guardian 00:02:31.516 --> 00:02:35.466 Lifestyke, Guardian Dogs, lots of Great Pyrenees and mixes, and Herding Dogs. 00:02:36.176 --> 00:02:40.176 And, um, the hard thing was, well it's all hard, rescue is very 00:02:40.176 --> 00:02:43.376 hard, and they're overwhelmed is deciding who to take home that day. 00:02:43.836 --> 00:02:48.296 Generally puppies, because they have the, you know, the longest life ahead of them. 00:02:49.026 --> 00:02:51.446 Because I'll never forget the eyes of the dogs that I didn't take. 00:02:51.716 --> 00:02:54.826 Because it wasn't back then, it wasn't sheltering like it is now. 00:02:54.826 --> 00:02:58.226 I mean, it's, there's overwhelm, but at least there's talking about getting 00:02:58.226 --> 00:03:01.776 the dogs into homes versus just you're here so you're not making it out. 00:03:02.316 --> 00:03:03.646 Um, and I'll never forget those dogs. 00:03:03.646 --> 00:03:05.996 And that's who I learned the most from is the shelter dogs. 00:03:06.176 --> 00:03:09.226 My husband and I, poor man, never had a single dog in his life. 00:03:09.886 --> 00:03:13.216 He lives on a ranch in Texas and we, together, we fostered 00:03:13.386 --> 00:03:16.096 400 plus dogs over 10 years. 00:03:16.666 --> 00:03:17.866 And that's what I learned. 00:03:17.886 --> 00:03:21.106 That, that, if you can take a dog in the most stressed out environment, and 00:03:21.106 --> 00:03:24.926 I never got bitten, because they taught, I've never been bitten, they taught me, 00:03:24.936 --> 00:03:27.646 it doesn't mean you're a bad trainer if you've been bitten, because it can happen 00:03:27.646 --> 00:03:33.126 like that, uh, but those dogs taught me about stress and trauma, and because they 00:03:33.126 --> 00:03:34.406 were the most stressed out in their lives. 00:03:34.426 --> 00:03:37.896 Even the best shelter can be very, very traumatic for the most resilient dog. 00:03:38.156 --> 00:03:40.876 It's like a kennel that's loud, they don't know where they are, they've lost 00:03:40.876 --> 00:03:43.786 their home, their whole world is turned upside, they've lost their person, 00:03:44.316 --> 00:03:46.046 uh, anything familiar to them, and so. 00:03:46.781 --> 00:03:47.831 Helping shelter dogs. 00:03:47.861 --> 00:03:49.261 I wish trainers had to do it. 00:03:49.721 --> 00:03:50.861 I wish it was a requirement. 00:03:50.881 --> 00:03:55.161 You have got to go work two months in a shelter or over the summer or whatever it 00:03:55.161 --> 00:03:58.881 is because they give you the most valuable training to me that I've ever learned. 00:03:59.221 --> 00:04:02.881 And then I wrote along the way to best selling books. 00:04:03.941 --> 00:04:07.241 Uh, this is my earlier one from 2015, which is hard to find, it's out of print, 00:04:07.241 --> 00:04:13.401 but you can still find it, and then this one I wrote in 2021, and I almost didn't 00:04:13.401 --> 00:04:16.411 write it, because I was, writing a book is not easy, and you don't make a lot of 00:04:16.411 --> 00:04:19.071 money on it, even though this has been a bestseller for three years, including 00:04:19.071 --> 00:04:23.661 a year before it came out, but this book changed my life, because it's way more 00:04:23.661 --> 00:04:27.281 than, the title is Aggressive and Reactive Dogs, I didn't get a choice on the title. 00:04:27.281 --> 00:04:30.611 So, But that's the most common problem is reactivity. 00:04:30.641 --> 00:04:34.291 So this book is everything, almost everything that dog owners have 00:04:34.291 --> 00:04:37.631 told me over the two decades, what they have problems with. 00:04:37.881 --> 00:04:40.781 Excessive barking, chasing, prey drive, fighting with the other dog 00:04:40.791 --> 00:04:43.221 in the house, you know, hurting the children kind of thing. 00:04:43.531 --> 00:04:46.391 And it's a positive reinforcement way of dealing with that. 00:04:46.401 --> 00:04:51.511 Even the scariest so called red zone, which is made up from TV actor, red zone 00:04:51.521 --> 00:04:54.081 dogs, um, how to do it with kindness. 00:04:54.641 --> 00:04:55.691 And what this book. 00:04:56.076 --> 00:04:59.886 opened my eyes to because I interviewed 17 professionals around the world. 00:05:00.106 --> 00:05:05.236 Um, I kept learning from them and I, I was retired when I wrote this, mostly. 00:05:05.326 --> 00:05:06.416 I had a few consults. 00:05:06.876 --> 00:05:09.926 I had removed myself from the industry because it's a very 00:05:09.926 --> 00:05:11.296 toxic industry in many ways. 00:05:11.896 --> 00:05:15.076 I was having a really good life and then I wrote this book and I got excited again. 00:05:15.426 --> 00:05:19.016 And I've been teaching and working with owners ever since, and I've 00:05:19.056 --> 00:05:24.276 just fine tuned my life on the trauma aspect of being a dog in this culture 00:05:24.276 --> 00:05:25.606 that doesn't make sense to dogs. 00:05:26.236 --> 00:05:29.186 You know, back when we all lived on the farm, most people lived rural for 00:05:29.466 --> 00:05:34.466 most of our history, and the dog had a purpose, and walked along beside you 00:05:34.476 --> 00:05:38.476 without a leash, generally, herding the sheep, protecting the meat cart, 00:05:38.806 --> 00:05:41.936 getting the varmints if they were terriers, whatever, livestock guardian. 00:05:42.246 --> 00:05:45.366 And then we all moved into the cities, and they have to be on leashes. 00:05:45.866 --> 00:05:50.366 And I love leashes for control, but they also limited dogs responses. 00:05:50.636 --> 00:05:51.656 Like, I'm getting out of here. 00:05:51.656 --> 00:05:52.416 This is dangerous. 00:05:52.416 --> 00:05:54.016 And so then you get reactivity. 00:05:54.286 --> 00:05:55.376 We're nervous wrecks. 00:05:55.706 --> 00:05:57.086 We all have a nature deficit. 00:05:57.106 --> 00:05:58.936 Another reason I like living in the mountains, because 00:05:58.936 --> 00:05:59.906 I could be outside a lot. 00:05:59.906 --> 00:06:03.836 So I, after I wrote that book, I started really seeing. 00:06:04.366 --> 00:06:08.096 The effect of trauma on dogs, and it's kind of like canine body language. 00:06:08.096 --> 00:06:13.286 Once you see it, once you understand that a dog licking its nose, or wide eyes, 00:06:13.296 --> 00:06:19.376 or slow blink, or a paw lift up, or that shake off we talked about, that's low, 00:06:19.396 --> 00:06:21.386 low level going, it's going to go up. 00:06:22.026 --> 00:06:25.666 Anxiety if we don't respond, and if we don't honor the communication, and 00:06:25.666 --> 00:06:27.336 that's exactly how I feel about trauma. 00:06:27.676 --> 00:06:30.616 That once you see and understand the trauma that dogs go through, and 00:06:30.616 --> 00:06:35.026 those are all my courses, are about puppy, helping puppies, helping a dog 00:06:35.026 --> 00:06:36.546 that's been in your life for 10 years. 00:06:36.586 --> 00:06:41.716 We can still help that dog, but you, you can't fix it through training. 00:06:42.156 --> 00:06:43.336 That's what I have learned. 00:06:43.736 --> 00:06:46.476 And I knew that instinctively, but I've really fine tuned it into 00:06:46.476 --> 00:06:51.166 programs to say, Sit down stay does not help a trauma response. 00:06:51.566 --> 00:06:55.826 Um, I want to give, show you this quote, or say this quote that I really like 00:06:55.826 --> 00:06:59.646 from Peter Levine, who, um, is really big in the world of human trauma. 00:07:00.036 --> 00:07:05.376 His quote is, trauma is perhaps the most avoided, ignored, belittled, 00:07:05.406 --> 00:07:10.576 denied, misunderstood, and untreated cause, he says, of human suffering. 00:07:11.136 --> 00:07:15.336 And I will say dog suffering because dogs mirror us and we are not well as 00:07:15.336 --> 00:07:20.316 human beings and COVID and plagues and wars don't help us become, you know, 00:07:20.406 --> 00:07:21.956 peaceful, more peaceful creatures. 00:07:21.966 --> 00:07:28.156 So, um, it's just getting owners to say my dog has had trauma and I mean, 00:07:28.156 --> 00:07:29.496 I mean, I'm here to help the dog. 00:07:29.536 --> 00:07:34.356 I'm here to nurture it and love it back into healing versus you sit down and stay 00:07:34.546 --> 00:07:36.126 and stay on your mat because I'm the boss. 00:07:36.696 --> 00:07:37.416 That's weird. 00:07:37.496 --> 00:07:38.676 That's hierarchical. 00:07:38.986 --> 00:07:39.326 Anke: Yeah. 00:07:39.526 --> 00:07:41.006 But that's, that's all. 00:07:41.981 --> 00:07:46.721 I mean, I remember when my Kai got bitten, like when Leo got bitten and the other 00:07:46.721 --> 00:07:51.091 one, you know, came in this like, you know, sort of just barely escaped with his 00:07:51.091 --> 00:07:53.361 life sort of thing from, from this guy. 00:07:53.401 --> 00:07:59.231 And the advice I got You know, well, obviously from neighbors, but also from 00:07:59.231 --> 00:08:04.441 local trainers, you know, was always like, you're too nice to the dog. 00:08:04.491 --> 00:08:07.881 Like, you just spoil them and it makes everything worse. 00:08:08.191 --> 00:08:13.071 You have to tell them who's boss, you know, and, and all, and I tried the, 00:08:13.241 --> 00:08:17.411 you know, training and this and clicker and, and Leo just looked at me going 00:08:17.411 --> 00:08:24.981 like, what the heck, you know, and, and so Everything through that lens, you 00:08:24.981 --> 00:08:29.711 know, what I've learned from you, for example, it's like, oh yeah, that makes 00:08:29.711 --> 00:08:36.761 so much sense, you know, and you said something when you were at the summit, 00:08:36.781 --> 00:08:41.691 the Panic2Peace summit last February, you said something, uh, that I never forgot. 00:08:41.741 --> 00:08:46.611 You said a dog can't learn anything until their nervous system is calm. 00:08:47.231 --> 00:08:48.571 And that was like, oh 00:08:48.611 --> 00:08:50.571 Annie: yeah, you know. 00:08:52.161 --> 00:08:56.081 We've reversed it, because a lot of the training comes from military training. 00:08:56.471 --> 00:09:02.151 Like, I am not impressed with human male and female macho trainers who say, I can 00:09:02.151 --> 00:09:05.971 train a military dog to attack this person wearing a thing and schützen and train. 00:09:06.531 --> 00:09:06.991 Good. 00:09:07.211 --> 00:09:07.741 Do that. 00:09:07.911 --> 00:09:09.071 That is not a pet dog. 00:09:09.161 --> 00:09:13.131 That is not the Chihuahua, the Terrier, the Bug, the Golden Retriever, the Lab 00:09:13.141 --> 00:09:14.951 that needs, that lives with a family. 00:09:14.951 --> 00:09:16.561 They don't need to learn any of that stuff. 00:09:16.751 --> 00:09:18.061 It doesn't translate well. 00:09:18.231 --> 00:09:20.021 It's completely different from what I do. 00:09:20.331 --> 00:09:23.591 And all the training in the world will not solve a problem 00:09:23.591 --> 00:09:24.871 that is in the nervous system. 00:09:25.261 --> 00:09:28.121 And their nervous system is just the same as ours, which makes sense because 00:09:28.121 --> 00:09:29.811 we co evolved over 30, 000 years. 00:09:29.811 --> 00:09:32.296 They have an amygdala, They have a prefrontal cortex. 00:09:32.296 --> 00:09:33.206 They have a nervous system. 00:09:33.216 --> 00:09:34.916 They have a parasympathetic nervous system. 00:09:35.276 --> 00:09:40.666 So they can have trauma responses very similar to us, like freezing, um, 00:09:40.676 --> 00:09:43.956 fawning, which is a little more hard to see, but we can see it in some dogs. 00:09:44.436 --> 00:09:47.456 Um, bite is one. 00:09:47.776 --> 00:09:51.421 When I, I hate There's a lot of things I hate on social media, uh, 00:09:51.421 --> 00:09:55.351 that are done to dogs for clicks and likes, but I hate seeing a dog 00:09:55.351 --> 00:09:57.061 that wants, doesn't wanna walk. 00:09:57.271 --> 00:10:01.381 It just lays down on leash and ha ha, the owner's dragging it or picking 00:10:01.711 --> 00:10:04.951 that could be a shutdown and a freeze. 00:10:05.531 --> 00:10:09.161 And so something has happened either in that area to that dog or the smell 00:10:09.161 --> 00:10:14.051 reminds them of something to potentially, maybe the dog hurts, hurt his paws, hurt. 00:10:14.051 --> 00:10:16.781 Pain has a lot, has a lot to do with behavior and impacts behavior. 00:10:17.111 --> 00:10:18.911 But it's not funny when a dog freezes. 00:10:19.416 --> 00:10:22.046 It's very serious when a dog freezes. 00:10:22.476 --> 00:10:26.156 And that's a trauma response, and so often it comes out of the body, 00:10:26.626 --> 00:10:29.706 where the body, because we haven't healed that, and same with people. 00:10:29.866 --> 00:10:34.226 You might meet somebody that you have an instant dislike to, and because they 00:10:34.226 --> 00:10:38.646 might remind your amygdala, which keeps you safe, it's there for a reason, your 00:10:38.646 --> 00:10:40.166 lizard brain, some people have called it. 00:10:40.766 --> 00:10:43.636 That, a guy that looked like that was really mean to me when I was a kid, 00:10:43.636 --> 00:10:45.026 but you have forgotten that memory. 00:10:45.276 --> 00:10:46.386 You just get that. 00:10:47.406 --> 00:10:49.536 I say the amygdala says you're in danger, girl. 00:10:49.886 --> 00:10:50.186 Yeah. 00:10:50.376 --> 00:10:50.606 Yeah. 00:10:51.216 --> 00:10:52.326 And it keeps us alive. 00:10:52.626 --> 00:10:52.786 And 00:10:52.786 --> 00:10:56.726 Anke: I think that you've just hit on something that is, that it feels 00:10:56.766 --> 00:11:04.216 to me is probably underneath a lot of why this gets so much overlooked. 00:11:04.236 --> 00:11:10.556 Because, you know, people might think, oh, yeah, no, my dog's not traumatized 00:11:10.606 --> 00:11:15.161 because they never got Abandoned, they never got sort of shoved out of a car and 00:11:15.211 --> 00:11:18.271 you know like how I mean I've seen videos but I'm like oh my god you know when 00:11:18.271 --> 00:11:22.231 somebody like opens the car door sort of half doesn't even stop shoves the dog out 00:11:22.251 --> 00:11:25.821 and goes you know and just leaves that dog in the middle of nowhere and the dog 00:11:25.901 --> 00:11:32.571 you know so or be attacked by another dog you know or my dog's not had a dramatic 00:11:32.581 --> 00:11:36.486 experience like that but there's a whole bunch of other things that you know. 00:11:36.826 --> 00:11:42.356 Could actually leave a mark that requires some healing before, you 00:11:42.356 --> 00:11:45.846 know, your sit plots and all of that makes even any sense at all. 00:11:46.056 --> 00:11:51.526 So can you just name a few things that are quite common that, and it doesn't mean 00:11:51.526 --> 00:11:55.426 that every dog gets kind of traumatized by the mailman, but some might, you 00:11:55.426 --> 00:12:00.356 know, so it's, and I think we sometimes underestimate all the different things 00:12:00.396 --> 00:12:04.816 that could cause a dog to have that stress 00:12:04.816 --> 00:12:05.356 Annie: in their body. 00:12:05.941 --> 00:12:07.121 Yeah, that's a great question. 00:12:07.501 --> 00:12:08.761 And it is underestimated. 00:12:08.761 --> 00:12:12.491 It's like the quote that said trauma is the most, you know, we just 00:12:12.491 --> 00:12:13.741 kind of blow it off in ourselves. 00:12:13.741 --> 00:12:17.101 And, you know, there's big T and little t, there's chronic trauma. 00:12:17.491 --> 00:12:21.011 What upsets you may not upset me because I have a different life experience 00:12:21.031 --> 00:12:22.751 or just a different reaction to that. 00:12:23.061 --> 00:12:26.801 So we all respond in our own ways, but genetics certainly plays a role too. 00:12:26.801 --> 00:12:31.481 And we know in human studies, you can have the stress of your grandparents. 00:12:32.621 --> 00:12:36.871 System and the studies from human, uh, from dogla, dogs that are born in 00:12:36.871 --> 00:12:40.131 laboratories, there's a famous study years ago, years and years ago, that 00:12:40.131 --> 00:12:44.151 if the mother dog was nervous, the puppies were going to be nervous. 00:12:44.201 --> 00:12:46.991 Even if they kept trying to get that nervousness out. 00:12:47.471 --> 00:12:49.301 and bringing in a stable sire. 00:12:49.751 --> 00:12:51.151 Not every single puppy. 00:12:51.951 --> 00:12:54.381 I just had three puppies last year that I fostered. 00:12:54.411 --> 00:12:58.941 Um, I took one of them back and he got a foster and adopted immediately because he 00:12:58.941 --> 00:13:01.701 was the biggest and he was so much bigger. 00:13:01.701 --> 00:13:03.051 Like these puppies were tiny. 00:13:03.051 --> 00:13:05.931 They were little, beautiful Labrador mixes that had been severely 00:13:05.941 --> 00:13:07.281 traumatized, kept in a kennel. 00:13:07.591 --> 00:13:11.031 until they were 11 weeks old and headed towards massive separation 00:13:11.031 --> 00:13:12.241 anxiety and other problems. 00:13:12.711 --> 00:13:14.041 He was fun. 00:13:14.581 --> 00:13:19.071 I, there were 11 puppies and he was big and bold and he's the biggest. 00:13:19.071 --> 00:13:20.561 He got all the nutrients in the thing. 00:13:20.561 --> 00:13:21.671 He didn't have any worries. 00:13:22.691 --> 00:13:25.421 Um, and he was kind of picking too hard on the other ones. 00:13:25.421 --> 00:13:28.651 They would scream and squeal, and they were much, I had the runt, and I had 00:13:28.651 --> 00:13:29.851 the biggest, and I keep doing that. 00:13:29.851 --> 00:13:31.451 Those are my two now, and my two before. 00:13:31.461 --> 00:13:35.611 I don't know why, that's a weird thing that I'm doing, but I took him back. 00:13:35.611 --> 00:13:39.351 He was here 24 hours, and they were 11 weeks old, and I, luckily, the shelter 00:13:39.351 --> 00:13:43.696 understood, and I said, I wanted two, and there were six left by the time I got 00:13:43.696 --> 00:13:49.146 there to foster, and they said, the animal math, well, we have a foster for three, 00:13:49.246 --> 00:13:51.226 and if you take two, that leaves one. 00:13:51.796 --> 00:13:54.746 And I got to pick the three out of the six, and I picked 00:13:54.746 --> 00:13:55.836 the biggest and the smallest. 00:13:57.671 --> 00:14:01.381 And just the look, I wish I could show you, send in later pictures of him. 00:14:01.391 --> 00:14:02.801 He was just like a king. 00:14:02.811 --> 00:14:06.141 He was a golden doodle, like just overseeing his thing. 00:14:06.411 --> 00:14:07.301 Not a worry in the world. 00:14:07.341 --> 00:14:09.381 When I took him back and they had a foster right there to 00:14:09.381 --> 00:14:10.561 meet him, she did adopt him. 00:14:10.891 --> 00:14:15.761 He went and went to, it was a shelter where the dogs had an open space and then 00:14:15.781 --> 00:14:17.851 indoor and they were behind in kennels. 00:14:18.121 --> 00:14:19.491 He went to every single kennel. 00:14:19.511 --> 00:14:21.031 Hey man, how's it going? 00:14:21.031 --> 00:14:22.421 And they were barking and lunging. 00:14:22.571 --> 00:14:27.196 A cat tried to swat him and he's like, Meanwhile, I had the two that were 00:14:27.196 --> 00:14:29.986 shaking and screaming and freezing. 00:14:30.026 --> 00:14:33.066 One of them had a beautiful freeze, which I hate to say that. 00:14:33.066 --> 00:14:34.806 It's not, I don't mean beautiful. 00:14:34.806 --> 00:14:36.216 I mean, I wish I had gotten it on film. 00:14:36.216 --> 00:14:38.136 Because if you went to touch him, he would freeze. 00:14:38.416 --> 00:14:39.266 He was six pounds. 00:14:40.036 --> 00:14:42.776 And so human reaction is to pick him up and cuddle him because 00:14:42.776 --> 00:14:44.156 that's how we comfort each other. 00:14:44.536 --> 00:14:45.286 Not if, if, if, if. 00:14:45.616 --> 00:14:46.846 You don't know what that means. 00:14:46.876 --> 00:14:52.706 And so anyway, there's so much trauma that every human and every 00:14:52.706 --> 00:14:54.206 dog responds to differently. 00:14:55.026 --> 00:14:58.436 You can have a one time trauma event, like a fight, which is how 00:14:58.436 --> 00:14:59.996 we get a whole lot of reactive dogs. 00:15:00.426 --> 00:15:04.136 Car wreck, the dog's in the car and scared and saw the owner hurt, whatever. 00:15:04.526 --> 00:15:08.886 Um, it's more likely that the genetics, might be there because a lot of our 00:15:08.886 --> 00:15:11.706 dogs are genetically whacked out because of our breeding practices. 00:15:12.116 --> 00:15:14.576 And then they get transferred from home to home to home. 00:15:14.576 --> 00:15:18.126 So a lot of times I'll go see a two or three year old dog and I'll say, 00:15:18.126 --> 00:15:19.676 how many homes does this dog have? 00:15:20.066 --> 00:15:23.246 And they, if they even know, sometimes they just find it on the street. 00:15:23.266 --> 00:15:25.596 But birth home, probably stressful. 00:15:26.056 --> 00:15:27.496 Second home got adopted. 00:15:28.146 --> 00:15:32.536 Got dumped, got sheltered, got financial reasons, there's reasons people can't keep 00:15:32.536 --> 00:15:36.946 dogs, didn't like the kids, third home, shelter, fourth home, you, fifth home. 00:15:37.456 --> 00:15:41.666 That's a lot for the body to absorb and dogs like routine, much like children 00:15:41.666 --> 00:15:43.156 do, much like, they need safety. 00:15:43.781 --> 00:15:49.511 And five homes in two years is not safe for any of us, you know, so this is 00:15:49.521 --> 00:15:54.891 why, um, I've been writing and creating courses on trauma because, including a 00:15:54.891 --> 00:15:59.321 30 day reset for any dog, either a brand new dog, because you can avoid so many 00:15:59.321 --> 00:16:04.571 of these traumatic responses by not, by slowing down, we have, we do too much too 00:16:04.571 --> 00:16:09.001 fast, and letting the dog adapt to the new home, and that's not in three days. 00:16:10.191 --> 00:16:13.451 I say the first 30 days that animal is with you sets the tone 00:16:13.451 --> 00:16:14.751 for the rest of the dog's life. 00:16:15.361 --> 00:16:17.541 And particularly important with puppies, because their 00:16:17.711 --> 00:16:19.341 amygdala is saying, Am I safe? 00:16:19.461 --> 00:16:20.061 Are you safe? 00:16:20.091 --> 00:16:20.681 Am I safe? 00:16:21.181 --> 00:16:24.301 And the world either proves that they're safe, or they're not safe. 00:16:24.331 --> 00:16:28.921 And we have a lot of control in that, because we control everything about a dog. 00:16:29.531 --> 00:16:33.641 And so if people would just slow it down and not, and have a 00:16:33.641 --> 00:16:36.131 neighborhood party when you get the cute little puppy for Christmas. 00:16:37.166 --> 00:16:41.106 And understand that ripping it from its home, you know, it's not 00:16:41.106 --> 00:16:44.076 like I'm saying every dog has to stay with the mother dog forever. 00:16:44.606 --> 00:16:48.676 That's not feasible, but it is traumatic to take it for many 00:16:48.676 --> 00:16:52.506 dogs and how they respond and, and where they land is important. 00:16:52.966 --> 00:16:55.346 So if you think I just took you from the only thing you knew, 00:16:55.356 --> 00:16:58.536 all the smells, all the sounds, all the noise, all the routine, I 00:16:58.536 --> 00:16:59.506 don't know what your routine was. 00:16:59.831 --> 00:17:01.251 Maybe in a backyard kennel. 00:17:01.441 --> 00:17:04.631 So my house is actually much better for you, but I still have 00:17:04.631 --> 00:17:09.151 to prove to you nervous system puppy or adult I'm your safe space. 00:17:09.271 --> 00:17:10.561 This is your sanctuary. 00:17:10.901 --> 00:17:15.121 We're not going to go on walks on day two, uh, when I in the 30 00:17:15.121 --> 00:17:18.961 day reset, I say, don't go for walks for two weeks, maybe three. 00:17:19.531 --> 00:17:24.181 Unless you have that very rare, Very self assured guy that I took 00:17:24.181 --> 00:17:27.151 back because he was picking on the other ones and I knew he had a home. 00:17:28.641 --> 00:17:29.771 Um, he's rare. 00:17:30.261 --> 00:17:32.541 I almost thought about keeping him because I thought he would be a fun 00:17:32.541 --> 00:17:34.451 sport dog because he was so brave. 00:17:34.981 --> 00:17:39.561 But he's also gonna test you in a way that, anyway, so yeah, there's so 00:17:39.561 --> 00:17:46.036 many different contributing including vaccines can, as a young puppy, You 00:17:46.036 --> 00:17:49.486 know, when you get too many vaccines or you get a Great Dane level for a 00:17:49.486 --> 00:17:53.616 Chihuahua, because they don't necessarily put a smaller amount, and then the 00:17:53.616 --> 00:17:57.576 dogs soar, and you go to puppy class that's chaotic and out of control. 00:17:58.226 --> 00:18:01.846 Um, and my dogs developed car phobia, that Finn and Cooper, who I have now, they, 00:18:02.546 --> 00:18:06.216 I created a whole course from them, and they helped me with understanding trauma. 00:18:06.216 --> 00:18:07.266 I got them in 2011. 00:18:07.356 --> 00:18:08.846 19. 00:18:09.026 --> 00:18:09.396 Right. 00:18:09.576 --> 00:18:09.956 COVID. 00:18:10.276 --> 00:18:12.396 Five weeks of age taken from their mother. 00:18:12.536 --> 00:18:13.316 Don't do that. 00:18:13.706 --> 00:18:15.656 We want nine to ten weeks of age. 00:18:15.716 --> 00:18:17.566 It's illegal in many places to do that. 00:18:17.966 --> 00:18:18.766 I never knew why. 00:18:18.766 --> 00:18:19.556 I never got to understand. 00:18:19.566 --> 00:18:21.706 I never talked to the, I talked to their daughter. 00:18:22.166 --> 00:18:24.176 I never met the people who did this to these dogs. 00:18:24.206 --> 00:18:29.996 Put them in a car from northern Iowa, uh, Idaho to southern Utah, seven or 00:18:29.996 --> 00:18:35.256 eight hours in the car, and so they paired the stress of losing their home, 00:18:35.356 --> 00:18:39.836 throwing in the back of a car or truck, no protection, thrown in the backyard, 00:18:39.836 --> 00:18:43.156 they got worms, they got fleas, they were fighting over food, there was no human 00:18:43.156 --> 00:18:45.426 supervision, they paired that to the car. 00:18:46.626 --> 00:18:47.766 Understandably, right? 00:18:48.436 --> 00:18:48.776 You did 00:18:48.776 --> 00:18:50.556 Anke: that to a child, a kid would do the same. 00:18:51.176 --> 00:18:51.506 Annie: Yeah. 00:18:52.161 --> 00:18:57.631 And it took me seven months in 2019 to get them to trust me in their bodies because I 00:18:57.631 --> 00:19:01.691 didn't know what I knew after I wrote the book from all these other experts who were 00:19:01.701 --> 00:19:06.251 doing like Sarah Fisher, who does, she's an expert on body language and body works. 00:19:06.921 --> 00:19:11.881 She has a group called ACE, ACE Connections, A C E, Animal Centered 00:19:11.881 --> 00:19:13.291 Care, on Facebook that's free. 00:19:14.746 --> 00:19:17.636 And she has a program called Free Work, which is part of my healing protocol. 00:19:17.646 --> 00:19:19.406 The Phoenix Healing Protocol is ACE work. 00:19:19.426 --> 00:19:20.896 Free Work is very, very important. 00:19:21.066 --> 00:19:23.316 You can research her and she is in this book too. 00:19:23.456 --> 00:19:24.656 She's one of the people, Dr. 00:19:24.656 --> 00:19:29.786 Laura Donaldson, who's of course is on Thinkific, um, talks about deep safety. 00:19:29.786 --> 00:19:32.096 That's where I got the term deep safety that I talk about a lot. 00:19:32.106 --> 00:19:32.966 She created www. 00:19:32.966 --> 00:19:33.098 FEMA. 00:19:33.098 --> 00:19:35.561 gov And, you know, it's not forever. 00:19:35.581 --> 00:19:39.351 When a dog comes to you and they either just need to let that 00:19:39.351 --> 00:19:41.721 body relax for 30 days minimum. 00:19:41.801 --> 00:19:43.251 Can we give them 30 days, please? 00:19:43.951 --> 00:19:44.931 Um, at least. 00:19:45.381 --> 00:19:47.801 Um, it's not forever. 00:19:47.831 --> 00:19:50.641 It's that initial, are you safe? 00:19:50.806 --> 00:19:51.986 Am I safe in this home? 00:19:52.456 --> 00:19:55.566 And if we prove to the dog they're safe, then we get to the training. 00:19:55.566 --> 00:19:57.406 I'm not one of those trainers who's never trained. 00:19:57.626 --> 00:20:00.796 I like five life skills that I train, and recall is one of them. 00:20:01.296 --> 00:20:03.056 My puppies were heavily traumatized. 00:20:03.076 --> 00:20:04.266 They have an excellent recall. 00:20:04.666 --> 00:20:07.666 And for me, it was, please like other dogs as much as your genes will 00:20:07.666 --> 00:20:09.436 allow you to, and please like people. 00:20:10.286 --> 00:20:11.556 In other words, don't want to kill them. 00:20:11.576 --> 00:20:14.736 And they're healers, and healers can be very protective, and bitey. 00:20:16.046 --> 00:20:18.756 When I tell her trainer, my trainer friends, I'm getting 00:20:18.756 --> 00:20:20.832 healers, they're like, Eww. 00:20:20.832 --> 00:20:22.249 But 00:20:22.249 --> 00:20:27.276 Anke: it's for safety, really, you know, I mean, I don't, I'm not really, 00:20:27.536 --> 00:20:32.306 I don't really care about You know, when I look at these kind of police 00:20:32.306 --> 00:20:35.896 dog things and sits and plots and whatever, that doesn't really impress me. 00:20:36.226 --> 00:20:39.776 It's like, I don't really care whether my dogs, I don't need 00:20:39.776 --> 00:20:41.096 you to be able to do that. 00:20:41.106 --> 00:20:45.276 What I do need is if you are headed towards the street and I call you 00:20:45.316 --> 00:20:49.346 to come back, that I need, you know, or if there's another dog 00:20:49.356 --> 00:20:51.026 coming or like if something happens. 00:20:51.971 --> 00:20:55.141 To know that you're not gonna, you know, bite their butts 00:20:55.141 --> 00:20:56.671 off and that you come back. 00:20:56.681 --> 00:21:01.761 So there's like safety stuff that I want them to be, uh, want them to respond 00:21:01.761 --> 00:21:02.051 Annie: to. 00:21:03.251 --> 00:21:04.561 Which is a much different place. 00:21:04.591 --> 00:21:06.811 I want you to be safe and I want to know you'll come back 00:21:06.811 --> 00:21:08.121 because our bond is tight. 00:21:09.331 --> 00:21:12.451 Versus you come back because I'm the mean bad mom or dad. 00:21:12.461 --> 00:21:12.891 I say so. 00:21:13.661 --> 00:21:17.101 You're going to be zapped if you, I mean, shot collars are just absolutely 00:21:17.111 --> 00:21:19.901 atrocious and are illegal in many countries and should be everywhere. 00:21:19.901 --> 00:21:24.171 I'm, I have always spoken out against them because you couldn't do it to a kid. 00:21:24.521 --> 00:21:27.591 And if you can't do it to a kid, can you imagine putting a shot collar 00:21:27.591 --> 00:21:34.251 around your yard and your kids out there playing and they get You can't do it. 00:21:34.331 --> 00:21:34.851 You can't. 00:21:34.881 --> 00:21:35.231 Don't do it. 00:21:35.251 --> 00:21:36.321 We don't do it to cats. 00:21:36.551 --> 00:21:37.681 We don't do it to horses. 00:21:37.681 --> 00:21:38.651 We don't do it to giraffes. 00:21:38.651 --> 00:21:41.491 But dogs are easy to train. 00:21:42.421 --> 00:21:44.641 It's the trauma that's a little trickier. 00:21:44.721 --> 00:21:48.911 It's the emotional regulation that's new that we need to help people with. 00:21:49.131 --> 00:21:52.981 I can train a dog to heal with his neck up like this and to do 00:21:52.981 --> 00:21:54.391 the I went to a schutz in school. 00:21:54.391 --> 00:21:56.501 I can train My dog Finn loves bite work. 00:21:56.561 --> 00:21:58.941 I can train all the I can train a down stay. 00:21:59.181 --> 00:22:00.161 I can do all that. 00:22:00.691 --> 00:22:05.201 If I hadn't worked on his trauma And made him feel secure, he would bite. 00:22:05.781 --> 00:22:06.521 He would be dead. 00:22:07.201 --> 00:22:10.801 If I hadn't gotten Finn, who his response to the world is 00:22:10.931 --> 00:22:13.001 a deep grab and then a bite. 00:22:13.221 --> 00:22:15.701 And he's put his mouth on me, but he's never bitten down. 00:22:16.401 --> 00:22:20.161 And I appreciate that, if I push him too far, you know, 00:22:20.361 --> 00:22:21.941 because that's exquisite control. 00:22:22.791 --> 00:22:26.361 Um, Cooper, his brother, who's got more healer genes than him, even 00:22:26.361 --> 00:22:29.371 though they're full brothers, and Cooper, Finn has more border collie. 00:22:29.696 --> 00:22:31.506 and a Portugali Code, which is very interesting. 00:22:31.946 --> 00:22:37.386 Cooper is more laid back, but even within Cooper, if he's, he's got some pain. 00:22:37.386 --> 00:22:39.576 He's the runt, and Finn's the biggest. 00:22:39.766 --> 00:22:40.836 I have a problem with that. 00:22:41.206 --> 00:22:43.066 Um, he's got some pain that we haven't been able to 00:22:43.086 --> 00:22:44.376 diagnose, which is very common. 00:22:44.376 --> 00:22:47.116 He's five years old, and when he is painful or doesn't sleep 00:22:47.116 --> 00:22:49.256 enough, we interrupt dog's napping. 00:22:49.596 --> 00:22:52.356 He gets grouchy with his brother and, and us. 00:22:52.596 --> 00:22:53.906 You know, like, he'll just raise a little lip. 00:22:54.306 --> 00:22:55.086 I'm not mad. 00:22:55.106 --> 00:22:58.791 I'm like It's like if you're in a relationship and your spouse 00:22:58.801 --> 00:23:00.866 just comes home and yells, MAAA! 00:23:01.176 --> 00:23:03.136 And you have a loving relationship most of the time. 00:23:03.136 --> 00:23:05.396 You're like, he's having a bad day and maybe I could help 00:23:05.396 --> 00:23:07.526 him instead of, how dare you? 00:23:07.526 --> 00:23:09.776 I'm gonna put a shot collar because you one time yelled at me. 00:23:10.266 --> 00:23:11.896 A dog should be able to growl. 00:23:12.756 --> 00:23:16.736 A growl is a precursor to a bite and say, what is happening right 00:23:16.736 --> 00:23:18.226 now is really distressing to me. 00:23:18.226 --> 00:23:21.636 So much so that I'm growling and I say, thank you. 00:23:21.896 --> 00:23:23.376 I stop whatever's happening. 00:23:23.906 --> 00:23:27.166 Um, Finn growled at me because he didn't want his front nails 00:23:27.166 --> 00:23:29.236 clipped when he became a full adult. 00:23:29.626 --> 00:23:32.146 He was a little and we did all the puppy stuff. 00:23:32.431 --> 00:23:33.801 He was fine as a puppy. 00:23:33.801 --> 00:23:35.281 You could hold him and clip his nails. 00:23:35.391 --> 00:23:36.821 Acclimate, acclimate, acclimate. 00:23:37.141 --> 00:23:38.051 Cooperative care. 00:23:38.051 --> 00:23:38.891 I do a chin thing. 00:23:38.891 --> 00:23:40.761 Put your head in the chin here. 00:23:40.871 --> 00:23:43.911 You had him, uh, you know, put your chin in my hand and 00:23:43.911 --> 00:23:45.331 then let me do the vet stuff. 00:23:45.381 --> 00:23:46.741 I did all of that. 00:23:47.051 --> 00:23:50.151 He got fully mature and, um, growled at me once. 00:23:50.181 --> 00:23:53.731 A deep guttural growl that said, do not touch my front feet. 00:23:53.741 --> 00:23:55.721 And so many dogs don't like their front teach. 00:23:56.201 --> 00:23:57.501 Front Feet Touched. 00:23:57.811 --> 00:24:01.701 So instead of saying, I'm gonna drag you to the vet and drug you, I'm 00:24:01.701 --> 00:24:05.401 gonna hold you down, I'm gonna muzzle you because I have to do your feet. 00:24:05.741 --> 00:24:07.161 I mean it starts from a health problem. 00:24:07.391 --> 00:24:09.071 That's confrontational. 00:24:09.231 --> 00:24:10.401 It's unnecessary. 00:24:10.681 --> 00:24:12.831 It's responding force to force. 00:24:13.011 --> 00:24:14.661 That doesn't always work well for anyone. 00:24:14.971 --> 00:24:16.461 So I said, I'll get you a scratch board. 00:24:16.811 --> 00:24:20.681 He loves it where he scratches the front and he'll let me do the back. 00:24:21.471 --> 00:24:24.091 That's when he put his teeth on me because Jeff holds him 00:24:24.091 --> 00:24:25.031 and gives him peanut butter. 00:24:25.051 --> 00:24:27.111 If he, if he'll eat, if he doesn't eat, we stop. 00:24:27.281 --> 00:24:30.061 Don't wrap saran wrap around your head and put peanut butter on it. 00:24:30.611 --> 00:24:32.481 Um, we're just kind of diverting him. 00:24:33.726 --> 00:24:36.836 And so we've done the front feet, which he loves, it's a game, and 00:24:36.836 --> 00:24:37.886 then I'm clipping the back feet. 00:24:37.886 --> 00:24:41.716 I'm down on the ground and I see this little paw, little toenail like this. 00:24:42.036 --> 00:24:44.836 I'm like, I'm just gonna scooch up in there and do it really fast. 00:24:45.136 --> 00:24:46.256 That's when it happened. 00:24:46.286 --> 00:24:48.436 I mean, he already had told me he didn't appreciate it, so we'd moved to 00:24:48.436 --> 00:24:51.951 the scratch board, but it's sometimes they don't get the outside ones. 00:24:52.201 --> 00:24:57.731 I picked it up and he jerked out of the collar and growled and did this to, with 00:24:57.731 --> 00:25:01.041 the, I mean he's 75 pounds, he's very strong, he's one of the strongest bites 00:25:01.041 --> 00:25:02.701 of any dog I've ever felt in bite work. 00:25:03.451 --> 00:25:07.441 And I was like, oh my god, I can feel him release it. 00:25:08.421 --> 00:25:09.831 He made that choice. 00:25:09.831 --> 00:25:11.141 He had that much control. 00:25:11.731 --> 00:25:13.351 And he said, he said, stop it. 00:25:13.781 --> 00:25:14.751 Stop what you're doing. 00:25:14.751 --> 00:25:15.611 I don't care for it. 00:25:15.981 --> 00:25:17.451 He didn't buy, I thought it would bruise. 00:25:17.451 --> 00:25:18.301 It didn't even bruise. 00:25:18.621 --> 00:25:22.671 To me, as a dog behaviorist, that is fascinating. 00:25:23.171 --> 00:25:24.901 He didn't go for my face. 00:25:25.601 --> 00:25:27.321 If you were, that's how kids get bitten, because they're 00:25:27.321 --> 00:25:28.761 down there messing with the dog. 00:25:29.361 --> 00:25:31.611 He said, stop what you're doing with your hand. 00:25:32.111 --> 00:25:32.761 I'm warning you. 00:25:33.171 --> 00:25:35.991 And I said, scratch board, I will never touch your front feet again. 00:25:36.871 --> 00:25:39.211 So what I like, that's interesting. 00:25:39.221 --> 00:25:43.921 Anke: Like, what do you think is the difference between when he was kind of 00:25:43.931 --> 00:25:46.301 all right with it as a, as a, as a puppy? 00:25:46.481 --> 00:25:50.811 And as a grown up, is that like, what, what could be the reason for that? 00:25:51.421 --> 00:25:52.521 That's a great question. 00:25:52.851 --> 00:25:54.621 Annie: And trainers will tell you, those of us who work in 00:25:54.691 --> 00:25:58.181 behavior, the most common age is 12 to 24 months that they call us. 00:25:58.181 --> 00:25:59.521 That's a little bit of adolescence. 00:25:59.951 --> 00:26:03.371 Fully maturing and they get physically, um, stronger. 00:26:03.491 --> 00:26:05.681 So they're like, I put up that with a puppy. 00:26:05.861 --> 00:26:06.851 Anke: Oh. 00:26:06.851 --> 00:26:10.991 So it means basically I've never liked it, but like now I'm big enough to tell you. 00:26:11.201 --> 00:26:12.821 Ah, make sense. 00:26:13.261 --> 00:26:14.911 Annie: Might even, they might even freeze as a puppy and you're like, 00:26:14.941 --> 00:26:16.681 oh, he's tolerating it just fine. 00:26:16.771 --> 00:26:18.661 No, he's frozen in here. 00:26:19.081 --> 00:26:19.111 Oh. 00:26:19.111 --> 00:26:23.521 And we can physically, he was this big because he was five weeks old. 00:26:23.961 --> 00:26:27.101 So, you know, it's not that I manhandled him and made him do it, 00:26:27.101 --> 00:26:28.421 it's just that he didn't struggle. 00:26:28.961 --> 00:26:31.341 So we think, oh, he can handle it, can't he? 00:26:31.351 --> 00:26:34.041 And then he got big enough, and that happens a lot, and it happens a lot 00:26:34.041 --> 00:26:38.421 with dogs that fight in between, you know, the puppy might be You know, 00:26:38.611 --> 00:26:41.871 the older dog's okay with the puppy and has a puppy license, even though 00:26:41.871 --> 00:26:44.981 you're annoying me because I'm grandma over here and you're, you know, 00:26:44.981 --> 00:26:46.401 grandchild bugging the heck out of me. 00:26:46.791 --> 00:26:51.451 And then the old, as the dog gets bigger, the older dog might say, I said, stop it. 00:26:51.821 --> 00:26:56.081 And the bigger dog said, oh yeah, because he's bigger now. 00:26:56.311 --> 00:27:00.331 That have, I mean, 12 to 24 months is a very, because we see kind 00:27:00.331 --> 00:27:01.901 of more of the permanent changes. 00:27:02.441 --> 00:27:05.121 And their personality and that's how we are. 00:27:05.851 --> 00:27:08.101 We're not the same people, thank God. 00:27:08.311 --> 00:27:10.851 Anke: And teenagers are also like a bit nutty, right? 00:27:11.961 --> 00:27:13.061 They have teenage brains. 00:27:13.271 --> 00:27:16.241 Yeah, yeah, that makes, that makes so much sense. 00:27:16.621 --> 00:27:21.466 So you've got Well, you've, you've mentioned the 30 day reset and we're 00:27:21.466 --> 00:27:24.676 going to definitely pop that in the, in the show notes, but for people 00:27:24.676 --> 00:27:28.516 who want to just have a little sniff of like what this is all about, you 00:27:28.516 --> 00:27:30.016 know, what have you got for them? 00:27:31.086 --> 00:27:36.766 Annie: I have, um, to kind of get people thinking about the idea of trauma, I 00:27:36.776 --> 00:27:41.646 have a seven day, um, seven day step process that you can get for free, which 00:27:41.646 --> 00:27:42.866 I'm sure you'll put a link up there. 00:27:42.966 --> 00:27:43.556 Absolutely. 00:27:43.836 --> 00:27:44.756 Seven Steps to Healing. 00:27:45.306 --> 00:27:48.406 And it talks a lot about some of the bigger topics we're talking about, 00:27:48.406 --> 00:27:52.636 but in bite sized pieces, so you can just start thinking and looking 00:27:52.636 --> 00:27:53.996 at your own life with your own dog. 00:27:54.406 --> 00:27:56.656 One of it is, um, do a whole lot of nothing. 00:27:56.846 --> 00:27:58.156 Sit with your dog, read a book. 00:27:58.496 --> 00:28:01.906 I want to, I want to know what, if we were talking, I want to know what 00:28:01.906 --> 00:28:05.096 your dog loves, what your dog doesn't like, what noises he's sensitive to. 00:28:05.506 --> 00:28:08.866 Um, you can't, you won't know that if the dog's in the crate and you go 00:28:08.876 --> 00:28:10.236 off to work for eight hours a day. 00:28:10.406 --> 00:28:13.986 You need that time with bonding, um, slowing down. 00:28:14.501 --> 00:28:17.871 Making the House a Sanctuary, creating that deep safety that Dr. 00:28:17.871 --> 00:28:19.481 Laura Donaldson talks about. 00:28:19.661 --> 00:28:20.561 How to do that? 00:28:21.011 --> 00:28:21.881 Because we don't know. 00:28:21.911 --> 00:28:24.271 We don't create safety for ourselves very well. 00:28:24.821 --> 00:28:25.801 And I think that's 00:28:25.801 --> 00:28:26.611 Anke: the, that's the thing. 00:28:26.611 --> 00:28:30.131 It actually works out beneficial for both parties. 00:28:30.851 --> 00:28:35.841 You know, so I think we actually, I think you could literally take, it's really 00:28:35.841 --> 00:28:40.101 funny, like you could literally take the seven steps or the 30 day reset and 00:28:40.101 --> 00:28:42.061 apply it to yourself and you'd benefit. 00:28:42.631 --> 00:28:44.961 And you don't need to have gotten robbed before, right? 00:28:45.281 --> 00:28:45.511 So 00:28:45.621 --> 00:28:49.821 Annie: it's like you don't need some horrific, you know, Resetting 00:28:49.831 --> 00:28:52.331 that, we call it a reset because we're resetting that nervous system. 00:28:52.691 --> 00:28:55.011 So if you take your, one of them is stop doing what you're doing. 00:28:55.011 --> 00:28:57.591 If you have an inkling that it's stressing the dog out, 00:28:57.611 --> 00:28:58.831 you have to know body language. 00:28:59.131 --> 00:29:02.051 But reactive dogs, we say they're overreacting, no. 00:29:02.711 --> 00:29:04.181 They're saying I'm uncomfortable. 00:29:04.321 --> 00:29:06.271 It's really rude to call them reactive. 00:29:06.581 --> 00:29:10.051 It's like a reactive hysterical woman when the man's beating her or says, I 00:29:10.101 --> 00:29:13.851 yelled her down, you know, you react, just take your blumps and shut up. 00:29:14.291 --> 00:29:17.946 So a dog that's reactive, barking, screaming on leash, that's My first, 00:29:18.046 --> 00:29:20.966 first of all, the walk starts way before you ever get outside the house. 00:29:21.601 --> 00:29:26.181 We can't guarantee their safety in public, um, but most owners just aren't 00:29:26.181 --> 00:29:30.151 aware of the signs of trauma, like maybe shutting down and not wanting to go out 00:29:30.151 --> 00:29:34.701 the front door, is the dog stubborn, or it's terrifying out there, or they're 00:29:35.051 --> 00:29:39.221 noise sensitive, and you're at work all day, and you need a camera in your house, 00:29:39.221 --> 00:29:42.771 which is cheaper than ever, and you don't know that he's barking at every single 00:29:42.771 --> 00:29:45.881 noise that he hears, and he's exhausted by the time you get home, and then you 00:29:45.881 --> 00:29:49.561 take him on a walk, and he's exhausted, he's trigger stacked, he's on a hair 00:29:49.561 --> 00:29:53.841 trigger, and And this is how humans get into road rage and even murder each 00:29:53.841 --> 00:29:55.551 other because you're trigger stacked. 00:29:55.551 --> 00:29:56.691 I mean, there's lots of reasons. 00:29:56.751 --> 00:29:59.711 I'm not condoning murder by any stretch or road rage, but we've all 00:29:59.711 --> 00:30:03.001 probably done road rage because we've been pushed and pushed and pushed and 00:30:03.001 --> 00:30:04.751 pushed and then it's the final thing. 00:30:05.381 --> 00:30:09.521 So you take it on a walk and he sees a dog and a reactive dog is big. 00:30:09.521 --> 00:30:12.881 I get away because they're like, I am danger. 00:30:12.941 --> 00:30:13.961 That's the amygdala. 00:30:14.151 --> 00:30:14.901 You're in danger, girl. 00:30:14.901 --> 00:30:18.251 You might die if you've ever seen or heard a dog fight. 00:30:19.156 --> 00:30:22.056 Among dogs that are leashed or a stray comes bolting out at you. 00:30:22.316 --> 00:30:23.436 It's terrifying. 00:30:23.436 --> 00:30:24.706 Your heart rate will increase. 00:30:24.706 --> 00:30:25.666 You'll probably scream. 00:30:25.846 --> 00:30:27.586 You'll stick your hand in there and probably get bitten. 00:30:27.586 --> 00:30:29.176 That's how most of my clients get bitten. 00:30:29.726 --> 00:30:31.176 Because your dog could literally die. 00:30:31.496 --> 00:30:32.456 They go for the neck. 00:30:32.686 --> 00:30:36.596 They, you know, even if there's Sometimes they'll fight and scream and they'll 00:30:36.596 --> 00:30:37.956 break up and there's just slobber. 00:30:38.586 --> 00:30:42.326 You know, they didn't, it's like Finn, they chose not to, or for 00:30:42.326 --> 00:30:45.756 whatever reason they didn't wound the other person, but the body 00:30:45.756 --> 00:30:47.376 doesn't know, the threat is the same. 00:30:47.376 --> 00:30:47.736 And the 00:30:47.736 --> 00:30:50.026 Anke: stress is still there because that's what happened to Leo. 00:30:50.236 --> 00:30:53.936 Like Leo, like looking at back what happened when he got bitten at 11 00:30:53.936 --> 00:30:56.016 months old, it was exactly that. 00:30:56.026 --> 00:30:59.346 Like he'd been like, oh I'm cute and you know it, like and he'd be kind 00:30:59.346 --> 00:31:04.421 of goofy with everyone, and that dog was probably like, no you're not, oh. 00:31:04.581 --> 00:31:08.381 And, and he actually, he did bite him, but just like a little bit, 00:31:08.381 --> 00:31:11.881 and the vet said, nah, that dog didn't really want to do anything. 00:31:12.191 --> 00:31:14.741 If he had wanted, this dog would be dead. 00:31:15.021 --> 00:31:19.781 You know, so the other dog had actually, but that wasn't Leo's reaction. 00:31:20.181 --> 00:31:24.921 You know, he behaved as if he'd like, like been killed. 00:31:24.921 --> 00:31:27.341 Even like the day when I took him to the vet. 00:31:27.716 --> 00:31:30.666 Does that whole thing happen at night and I had to kind of wait till the morning and 00:31:30.676 --> 00:31:35.976 he was screeching the vet they couldn't hold like they kind of needed three and 00:31:35.976 --> 00:31:40.506 they actually needed to sedate him to even look at what's going on you know and then 00:31:40.516 --> 00:31:47.186 he did not ever like big male dogs and in confined spaces after that so he certainly 00:31:47.186 --> 00:31:53.166 did not perceive it as oh he didn't really like me you know he literally Perceived it 00:31:53.206 --> 00:31:55.706 as like, okay, I almost got killed here, 00:31:56.186 --> 00:31:58.796 Annie: you know, and that's the amygdala keeping you safe. 00:31:59.206 --> 00:32:02.976 So then the amygdala is like, you're in danger from that dog and that dog and that 00:32:02.976 --> 00:32:05.076 noise and that noise and that skateboard. 00:32:05.366 --> 00:32:08.056 And that person looked at you funny and it just keeps building 00:32:08.056 --> 00:32:08.926 and building and building. 00:32:09.146 --> 00:32:12.106 So often anxiety will start with a noise, noise phobia. 00:32:12.106 --> 00:32:13.766 We know that that's shooting through the roof. 00:32:13.766 --> 00:32:17.266 There's 300 percent and since COVID. 00:32:18.001 --> 00:32:21.611 Um, for a variety of reasons, but also natural disasters. 00:32:21.621 --> 00:32:25.491 I mean, those divorces moving, grandma moves into the house and she has 00:32:25.491 --> 00:32:29.391 dementia, so she's moving weird and talking weird, or you have a baby and we 00:32:29.391 --> 00:32:33.541 didn't actually, I mean, all of our human stuff, including putting them in a car, 00:32:33.651 --> 00:32:38.346 more dogs have anxiety than people are aware of, I believe, I know that's true. 00:32:38.566 --> 00:32:44.146 Um, all of that can build up, and so, first of all, they are, um, worried about 00:32:44.176 --> 00:32:47.676 the mailman coming to the door, the UPS guy, and then they're jacked up from 00:32:47.676 --> 00:32:52.036 that, so they go on a walk, and then one incident like that, or a growl, or 00:32:52.296 --> 00:32:55.636 they're trapped by our leashes, which we, just, it's like, let's set up, 00:32:55.676 --> 00:32:57.956 let's create reactive dogs as a society. 00:32:58.146 --> 00:33:01.686 We've done that very, very well, and even when I think about rescue work, the dogs 00:33:01.686 --> 00:33:07.186 that I rescued, 1990 to 2010, Until I completely burned out and was exhausted. 00:33:07.756 --> 00:33:11.326 Um, they were a different, different genetic makeup than the dogs today. 00:33:11.326 --> 00:33:14.216 The first part of this book, the first two chapters, is why. 00:33:14.696 --> 00:33:15.866 Why are dogs so? 00:33:16.466 --> 00:33:17.946 Why are bites through the roof? 00:33:17.946 --> 00:33:20.076 Why are people being mauled to death in dogs? 00:33:20.386 --> 00:33:22.536 Google dog, dog maulings. 00:33:22.786 --> 00:33:24.406 It used to be so rare. 00:33:24.406 --> 00:33:29.656 It's still very rare because they have exquisite control, many of them, but every 00:33:29.666 --> 00:33:31.656 animal can be pushed to defend itself. 00:33:32.066 --> 00:33:36.586 Yeah, and that's what we've done to dogs, is we're saying, I'm leashed, you're 00:33:36.586 --> 00:33:39.986 not my safe space, and here comes this big bad dog that's going to kill me, 00:33:40.226 --> 00:33:43.846 and then it transfers to the little dog, and that dog, and then the, even the 00:33:43.846 --> 00:33:47.836 collar, the metal collars on a, um, tags. 00:33:48.056 --> 00:33:49.076 I say, don't get metal. 00:33:49.206 --> 00:33:50.696 That becomes the clanging. 00:33:50.696 --> 00:33:52.626 One, it hurts their ears, because they're so sensitive, 00:33:52.636 --> 00:33:55.136 can, and two, that's the cue. 00:33:55.736 --> 00:33:59.956 When I start to use reactive dogs, I help them acclimate to the metal clanging. 00:34:01.591 --> 00:34:02.251 I mean, that's 00:34:02.251 --> 00:34:06.531 Anke: the stuff that I find fascinating because there's the kind of detail that 00:34:06.531 --> 00:34:11.361 you wouldn't even think about, you know, so, so that's why I, yeah, definitely, you 00:34:11.361 --> 00:34:15.161 know, if, if you're listening and there's like, Oh my God, that would explain a few 00:34:15.161 --> 00:34:20.661 things, or maybe like definitely start with the seven steps and do yourself 00:34:20.701 --> 00:34:26.211 and your dog a favor and grab the 30 day reset, because it literally will. 00:34:27.021 --> 00:34:28.331 Change your dog's life, you 00:34:28.331 --> 00:34:29.691 Annie: know, and your relationship. 00:34:30.421 --> 00:34:34.011 And I feel so strongly about it that I've created an offline, off Facebook 00:34:34.011 --> 00:34:37.081 community because I don't Like Facebook for a variety of reasons including 00:34:37.431 --> 00:34:42.161 them killing groups off just for their algorithm is strange And it's called 00:34:42.181 --> 00:34:45.761 the trauma canine trauma clinic and it's a private community It's a paid 00:34:45.761 --> 00:34:50.031 membership because that enables me to keep creating courses and writing books 00:34:50.031 --> 00:34:54.711 Absolutely, we keep it as low as we can possibly keep it and they're free If you 00:34:54.711 --> 00:34:56.601 join the VIP, you get all my courses. 00:34:56.911 --> 00:35:00.451 So if you have a puppy, you can start from puppy and go grow through the dog. 00:35:00.921 --> 00:35:04.911 Um, and I walk through the courses, um, in the VIP section live and 00:35:04.911 --> 00:35:06.701 answer questions and you send videos. 00:35:07.171 --> 00:35:10.591 So it's a way for me to help hundreds of dog owners. 00:35:11.106 --> 00:35:13.986 in a group setting where people understand because they have the same 00:35:13.986 --> 00:35:18.476 problem or they're learning about it, um, versus one on one on one, which 00:35:18.476 --> 00:35:21.516 is also why I wrote books, because I reach thousands of thousands of 00:35:21.526 --> 00:35:23.936 people, versus there's only one of me. 00:35:24.226 --> 00:35:27.476 Anke: That's the thing, and he only has 24 hours, so there's that little 00:35:27.486 --> 00:35:34.901 tight limit to capacity, so it's this, and you still get the Like you can 00:35:34.901 --> 00:35:38.851 still get Annie's eyes on your like, what's going on with my dog, right? 00:35:38.851 --> 00:35:42.071 So it's, it's the win win win situation. 00:35:42.091 --> 00:35:45.661 So I'll pop, obviously pop the link in the show notes below the 00:35:45.661 --> 00:35:47.671 video and wherever you're watching. 00:35:47.671 --> 00:35:51.621 So it'll be like right below and grab yourself a copy. 00:35:51.691 --> 00:35:54.701 And um, yeah, let's just slow it down a little bit. 00:35:55.401 --> 00:35:56.101 Annie: So I'm going to take a little break. 00:35:56.351 --> 00:35:58.231 It's also for people who've tried it all. 00:35:58.431 --> 00:36:00.001 I've tried the shot collar. 00:36:00.001 --> 00:36:02.241 That didn't, that made my relationship worse. 00:36:02.431 --> 00:36:04.461 I've tried spraying with a water bottle. 00:36:04.751 --> 00:36:06.051 I've tried this trainer. 00:36:06.051 --> 00:36:08.501 I've tried that trainer because you can get 4 3 trainers who are 00:36:08.501 --> 00:36:12.071 not behaviorists and have not, they don't know how to heal the trauma. 00:36:12.101 --> 00:36:16.241 They can do a beautiful heal, but the healing will not, healing your 00:36:16.241 --> 00:36:18.961 dog past something it's terrified of does nothing for the dog. 00:36:19.341 --> 00:36:21.961 It does something for you because you don't look, you're not 00:36:21.961 --> 00:36:24.881 being pulled down the street and you feel like we have control. 00:36:24.881 --> 00:36:26.991 Humans want to feel like we have control. 00:36:27.271 --> 00:36:27.521 Anke: Yeah, 00:36:28.031 --> 00:36:29.811 Annie: but without connection it means nothing. 00:36:31.211 --> 00:36:34.431 Without healing the trauma and then you do all the training you want. 00:36:35.001 --> 00:36:38.341 Like I have gotten so deep into trauma and I'm working with puppies again 00:36:38.341 --> 00:36:40.151 recently that I forgot I like training. 00:36:40.761 --> 00:36:43.591 I put so much training on my other dogs because that was my focus. 00:36:43.631 --> 00:36:46.751 Like they had all the titles and the therapy dog sit downs. 00:36:46.801 --> 00:36:48.781 Oh look they can sit on a blanket for five minutes. 00:36:49.011 --> 00:36:49.881 I don't care anymore. 00:36:50.621 --> 00:36:52.941 Because my dogs were so traumatized, I needed to help them. 00:36:53.241 --> 00:36:57.041 But now that my dogs are five Now they can go in the car. 00:36:57.091 --> 00:36:59.321 They helped me write that car phobia course. 00:36:59.661 --> 00:37:02.171 Um, that dogs don't understand. 00:37:02.171 --> 00:37:04.311 They're like your, they're like your mentors, right? 00:37:05.281 --> 00:37:06.181 They're the teachers. 00:37:06.451 --> 00:37:09.241 Sarah Fisher said that, that we are the students of the dog. 00:37:09.261 --> 00:37:10.081 And I think so. 00:37:10.141 --> 00:37:10.611 We should be. 00:37:11.271 --> 00:37:11.521 Yeah. 00:37:11.551 --> 00:37:12.731 So much about trauma. 00:37:13.051 --> 00:37:16.241 And if I had done sit down, stay with them, their minds were shot. 00:37:16.271 --> 00:37:18.901 Their bodies were shot for seven months. 00:37:19.191 --> 00:37:20.551 And I know that because I took photos. 00:37:21.981 --> 00:37:25.711 And it was seven months before I could help them. 00:37:25.991 --> 00:37:28.791 And that was in 2019, and I've learned so much since then. 00:37:29.191 --> 00:37:31.571 Those foster puppies, I had six days with. 00:37:32.851 --> 00:37:34.811 In six days their coats relaxed. 00:37:35.061 --> 00:37:35.401 Anke: Yeah. 00:37:35.581 --> 00:37:35.891 Wow. 00:37:36.881 --> 00:37:39.561 I mean, that's good news too, to know that it doesn't have to take forever, 00:37:39.881 --> 00:37:41.571 but you just can't rush it, you know? 00:37:42.031 --> 00:37:42.361 Yeah. 00:37:42.641 --> 00:37:43.881 So thank you so much. 00:37:44.151 --> 00:37:47.831 Uh, yeah, I think we, like, I think we could talk, we could talk about this 00:37:47.831 --> 00:37:49.321 forever because I find it fascinating. 00:37:49.321 --> 00:37:51.101 We'd have been through all of this with these two. 00:37:51.101 --> 00:37:54.511 So, so it feels like, oh my God, like, I wish I, I wish I'd 00:37:54.511 --> 00:37:56.051 known you a few years earlier. 00:37:56.516 --> 00:38:00.346 But, um, you know, second best time is now, so here we are. 00:38:00.346 --> 00:38:00.856 Thank you. 00:38:00.976 --> 00:38:03.936 Thank you for coming, and I can't wait to have you back. 00:38:04.316 --> 00:38:04.676 Thank you. 00:38:04.676 --> 00:38:07.166 Thank you for your podcast and everything you're doing for dogs. 00:38:07.696 --> 00:38:08.136 Annie: Thank you. 00:38:09.536 --> 00:38:10.766 Thanks so much for listening. 00:38:11.286 --> 00:38:15.586 If you enjoyed the episode, don't forget to subscribe, and leave a review so 00:38:15.686 --> 00:38:17.466 other dog lovers can find the show. 00:38:18.256 --> 00:38:21.746 If you haven't already, head over to soul touched by dogs. 00:38:22.176 --> 00:38:27.746 com and sign up for weekly doggy cuteness tips, recommendations, and personal 00:38:27.846 --> 00:38:30.216 stories to warm your dog loving heart. 00:38:30.216 --> 00:38:33.946 And if you know a pawsome human you think I should interview, 00:38:34.366 --> 00:38:35.506 I'd love an introduction. 00:38:35.986 --> 00:38:37.816 Email me at Anke. 00:38:38.086 --> 00:38:42.321 That's A N k E at Soul touched by dogs.com.