Silvan (00:00) Hi everyone. Welcome to Long Game, a Heated Rivalry podcast. My name is Sylvan and I'm joined, of course, with Declan. And we are continuing on with our Heated Rivalry book review. Silvan (00:12) I'm going to interrupt the podcast just for 30 seconds to let you know that Declan and I kind of need your help. So the British Podcasting Awards have a Listener's Choice Award. And this is sponsored by Spotify, and we would love it if you could vote for us. Now, voting closes on the 23rd of July, and so what you would need to do in order to vote for us is click on the link that I'm going to put in the description box. or you can just search British Podcast Awards and it'll come up. And then once you're on the link, search for Long Game Podcast. You need to enter your name and your email. And then, and this is the most important bit, is check your inbox after you vote to verify your vote because sometimes it can get sent to your junk folder. Declan and I would love for the podcast and the community around us to be recognized. So please, please, please get voting. Voting closes on the twenty third of july. Thank you. Back to your regular scheduled programming. Silvan (01:18) Now, Declan, what part is this? Because I'm getting lost. Declan (01:22) So we're like towards the end of part three. This is like the reveal of like the accident that happens with Shane on the ice. Very big moment in the T V show and obviously a big moment in the book. And it's told slightly differently in the book, which I think will be interesting to discuss. Silvan (01:44) I think so too, and I kinda want to take bets on how many chapters we can get through in this one recording. Do you think more or less than two? Declan (01:56) depends. once I start I'll find out. Silvan (02:01) I think I think we can get at least two to three in. Definitely more than one. Declan (02:05) Yeah. Sure. If we if we want to tell ourselves that, okay. Silvan (02:11) I'm just so appreciative of some of the comments that we've been getting on the book series. a lot of people have really enjoyed us taking a bit of a slower approach because we're dissecting some of the chapters in a lot of detail. this has literally become my English literature homework. Declan (02:20) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and I'm perfectly okay with that. But like to be fair, they're like this is chapter what, twenty something? Yeah. Yeah, so we're like this is only part We've not taken every chapter like this, but we have stopped to focus on the more interesting stuff with more character development and sort of depth and sort of psychological implications, things like that. So Silvan (02:38) This is chapter twenty one, yeah. Declan (02:56) As we're getting towards the end of the book, obviously some of these are going to be a bit longer than usual because we're getting into the nitty-gritty of it. We're finally getting revelations, we're getting character moments, we're getting them acting on feelings. So yeah, we'll see how we get on today. Silvan (03:10) And you're right, this is a big chapter. Like you said, this is the chapter where we get Shane's injury. And what were your thoughts on how this is sort of mapped out in the book versus the TV show? Declan (03:27) So in the book, it's very much implied that Ilya is getting prepared to take a step back from this relationship. you can get the feeling that he's getting a little too emotionally involved and he is getting too attached, and he wants to take that step back. And this is quite a common third act conflict for a lot of MM romance books, where you have one character who is usually quite emotionally distant. Suddenly becoming aware of how entrenched they are in the relationship that they've started, and they have a fear of rejection, of it going to shit. And so they try to take a step back. But then what the offer does is they introduce like an inciting incident where they are basically forced to contend with the idea of actually physically losing the person, as in like they're gone. What would you do if this person disappeared off Earth tomorrow? And when that question is asked of these characters, it's like, my god, my my hang-ups, my screw-ups, like none of that matters because the idea of not having you here with me is so much more terrible than the risk that we would take by trying to be together. And that's I like that kind of conflict. I I think that's a beautiful way of resolving inner conflict with people that have like commitment issues. It's like, well Silvan (04:26) Hmm. Declan (04:53) What if I rob you of the choice? Like what where do you fall then? And watching how they react I think is always like a really interesting character moment, regardless of the book or the characters in question. Silvan (05:05) Hmm. Why do you think that's a common sort of plot device that's specifically used in MM romances versus other things? What else could they have introduced as a conflict? Declan (05:19) I mean, it really depends on what's been built up over the story so far. obviously a good author is gonna give their characters flaws, they're gonna give them obstacles, and they should write their conflict around the ideas that they've built up so far. maybe this person is an avoidant. If he's an avoidant, then put him in a situation where he can't avoid. if he say is someone who is incredibly nervous, make them do something where they're put out of their comfort zone and they have to rise to the challenge at a time, there's lots of different ways to add an extra conflict towards the end of your book and to sort of kick start the ending in a sense, because this is kind of the kickstart of the ending. it's not so much whenever they go to the cottage. It's Ilya deciding that Shane is too important to let go and that they are going to commit themselves to it. Now the kiss that follows and things like that, obviously that is sort of like fuel to to get part the final part going. but this is like the turning point. This is like the my god, no, like we like we're together. This is happening, I can't let you go. So in that sense, it does make sense in this book to include it as the sort of plot device because Ilya has issues with becoming emotionally attached to people. And so this being his sort of conflict to overcome is really congruent with what we've learned so far. Silvan (06:52) Yeah, I think you're right. And I think for me, this is the equivalent in a rom com, for example, or in again, Dawson's Creek, you know, I love me some Dawson's Creek, where one person goes to the airport and is prepared to leave, and the other person is chasing them down, and this is what it feels the equivalent to for me as a non-romance reader. But with those plot devices and movies, it comes at the very end. Like it's the last scene or the last two scenes in a movie. Whereas this here in in the book happens like there's so many more chapters to go after this. Declan (07:33) Hmm. And do I know a common one in romance is the third act breakup? Silvan (07:41) Mm. Declan (07:41) And I ate a furnact breakup. Silvan (07:47) Wha what is what is what is irking you about this third breakup? Declan (07:51) I'm like, guys, pull your shit together. Is it really that bad? And sometimes it really is that bad, but I don't know. It's just because we've been putting so much work and effort into putting these characters together. And I don't like conflict anyway, so the idea of them breaking up is just like obviously it's really effective storytelling and if it's done right and not like this convoluted thing that just appears out of nowhere where they break up over a stupid reason. you know, it could be really effective. but yeah, it's just it's horrible. It's a horrible film. So it's just stuff like it. Silvan (08:29) Can I add another spanner because I know what pisses you off? What about the third act cheating leading to a breakup? Declan (08:39) Honestly, if like you're cheating, like I can't read cheating books. I just can't do it. I mean I can I can read one that is like a redemption of a cheater from the beginning, where it's like I messed this up, I'm such a fucking loser and it's like them rebuilding themselves up into a new person. But if it's like I am with this person and to get back at them because our relationship isn't going well, I'm gonna cheat on them. I'm like, I'm sorry, no, as a character, I just don't care about you anymore. Like I am emotionally disinvested from you. And now I am going to suffer through the rest of this book because I'm a completionist. But not because I want to. And yeah, that's just my general thoughts on it. Some people really like the drama of like a cheating romance, but I really don't get much enjoyment out of it. I just get angry and like I don't like sitting seething as I'm trying to read a book. That's supposed to help me relax. So no, it's I think it's just a personal thing for me. I just don't I don't like to see it. I don't like it introduced too deeply into a book because however long you think you've got to redeem this character, it's not long enough. You needed the whole book. So yeah, that's where I sit with that. Silvan (09:55) I feel like there's a very hard line that you draw and that's just not something that you're gonna go over. Declan (10:00) Yeah. But I don't think I'm the only one. I think it's like it's quite a d a deal breaker for a lot of like MM romance readers or romance readers in general to have like one of their main characters cheat on the other. especially as like a fur act breakup thing. That is like it's so shitty. 'Cause usually you're getting all the build up and the development of the relationship up until that point. And then to like toss it all out. toss out all this progress and all the time that the reader has committed into the book. yeah, it's just not a nice feeling. It's kinda like a kick in the face. It's it's like what did I put all this effort into reading this for and get invested for this if the character's just gonna end up doing this in the end anyway? Silvan (10:43) Hmm. I'd really like to hear from anyone that's listening about what books they think that this works in and what books that it absolutely doesn't. And I sort of want to compile a list out there to see what people think. Declan (10:58) Yeah, a hundred percent. I would be interested to hear any stories that people would recommend me to read maybe and I could review them that have this as like a focus as like something that is a big part of the plot because I would be interested to see one that doesn't make me want to pull my hair out. But you know, that's the challenge. Silvan (11:21) The challenges to let's change Declan's mind on cheating. Not cheating, not cheating. You know what I mean. On the redemption from cheating. I'm gonna get so many comments from that. but coming back to the book, the one thing that really stood out for me in this chapter was the response after Shane gets hit. Now, even before that, in the TV show for me, and I know we talked about it. Declan (11:25) Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Silvan (11:51) when we were recording the previous episodes, the hit in that Shane takes on the TV show, it comes out of nowhere. I compare it to Regina George getting hit by the bus in Main Girls. You know, I did not see that coming. And you were talking a lot about how you knew it was coming, and so in a way you were sort of anticipating it. And not that it ruined it, but it didn't feel quite as impactful in that way then. Declan (12:04) Yeah. No, it didn't because I knew that he was gonna be okay. I knew that like this didn't mean anything for his career, he was just gonna be out for a few weeks and months, and that it wasn't gonna cause lasting damage. 'Cause obviously I've read the other books. I know that Shane continues to ease hockey. but if I was like a first time watcher and I've seen my now beloved character who I have like fallen in love with over the past like five episodes Get absolutely wiped out on the ice with an unknown injury as he's put in a in a neck brace and carried off in a stretcher while he's completely concussed and talking nonsense. I would be shitting myself because what the hell just happened to him? Is he alright? Like, how is this gonna affect him? Like, what is the damage? And so yeah, you can't help but freak out. and that's kind of how I I read this book the first time. Was like, my god, what is gonna happen to him? Like How bad is this? And it's funny because you're experiencing the exact same thing that Ilya is experiencing, only he's getting it ten times worse because he's deeply in love with him. Silvan (13:26) I mean, I will attest that I am deeply in love with Shane, so I don't know who had it worse. Declan (13:31) Are we all? Silvan (13:32) Right, who doesn't love baby doll Shane? The one thing that really stood out for me here was after he gets hit in the book, Shane says, Ilya, please stand back. When not alone, Ilya they can see us. Whereas in the TV show, and I'm paraphrasing here because my memory is absolute garbage right now, he says something like, Tell him not to worry, tell him I'm fine, or something along those lines. It's not quite as direct. What do you think the change did and what impact do you think the change made? Declan (13:58) Yeah, and Yeah. I think it could have served a few different purposes. I think the main one that the book is trying to portray is that in the midst of all this madness and everything that's going on, Shane's biggest concern is getting found out. Which Hmm, it's not great. That's his biggest priority. He's not even worrying about Ilya worrying about him. yeah. Which is which leaves a lot of really awkward and non-answered questions of like is your fear so deeply ingrained that like that's your biggest concern right now? Is that this guy that you're secretly seeing, this guy it's Kenny, your boyfriend at this point, is looking too concerned for you that you need to stop him being concerned so that you can keep your secret. It's a bit more loaded than it appears on its surface. And I can understand why Jacob Tierney will want to take that out. and change it for something else. Because he replaces it with Shane's main thought being when he's hurt is that Ilya's gonna worry and he's gonna freak out. And I don't want him to do that because I care what's gonna happen to him. whereas Yeah, the shade in the book is making something a bit more selfish, I think. Silvan (15:51) I hear you and I'm going to offer a different interpretation. I feel like Shane on one hand is being more pragmatic out of the two because Ilya's obviously going to rush to him, he's going to, you know, look concerned obviously but want to do something as well. In Shane's mind, I feel like he's being the pragmatic one. He's being like the stay away. Like they're going to find out. It's going to be obvious. We we can't hide this in this situation. Whereas Ilya is not going to be thinking logically, he's just going to do what comes in his instinct, which is to rush to somebody to care for somebody, especially someone you care so deeply about. But I hear your point about Shane maybe taking on a slightly selfish point of view. At the same time, as you were talking, I was wondering: is that what Shane's main concern is? Why is his concern Am I going to be able to walk again? That to me, as an athlete, would be what I would be worried the most about. Like, have I broken something? Have I got something seriously wrong with me? And I know in ice hockey, like concussions are very common and getting literally bashed in is very common. But in both the book and the TV show, Shane isn't that person. He's not the person that starts fights. He's not the person who gets hit, typically, on the ring. So to me, why wasn't Shane's concern about his own health as well? Declan (17:26) Yeah, he was more concerned about the discovery than anything else, which yeah, it's very curious. That just goes to show where his mind is at though. He is all consumed with this idea of this secret getting out. And for someone that carries so much anxiety like that that can't be healthy. Like that is really bad. Like his biggest concern should actually be my god, like am I really badly hurt? Like is this is this gonna be an issue? Like am I gonna play again? like what's gonna happen to me? But it's not, it turns to Ilya and the idea that Ilya could be discovered as well. And I think that's where you might have the kinder read of it. Whereas like Shane doesn't want Ilya to out himself by accident by overly worrying about him. which is again another version of that read. So that line could have been taken so many different ways. whereas the way that Jacob Tierney does it leaves it less ambiguous. It's like Shane is worried about Ilya and That's that's where we're going with this and he doesn't want Ilya to worry and that's what we're stuck him with. Silvan (18:31) And I like that there are so many interpretations to this because as you mentioned earlier, there is this kindness that is coming from me, from Shane. As I read the book, there is more of an empathy and more as I understand the character more, and the book allows you to do that as well. There is something that is quite protective over Shane in a way that I don't have to be with Ilya. You know, Shane is giving baby doll, whereas Ilya can Ilya can take care of himself. Declan (19:03) Hm. Where do you find that comes from for you? Silvan (19:09) it's a huge caretaker type of sort of affinity. I am Ilya in this situation. If someone is in need or in distress, I come to the rescue. it's yeah, I mean I've broken that down in therapy for years. So I think that's that's where I have a lot more similarity with Ilya, I think. Declan (19:21) Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny, I think I empathize more with Belia because I feel like I'm good at spotting people that try to hide. That put the front up. And as part of therapy, I'm I'm getting quite good at like poking under it and being like, Mmm, are you sure you're alright? What's that like to carry that? And so I gravitate towards characters like that and offer them a lot of empathy because it's usually the ones that portray that they have it together the most that are struggling the most behind closed doors. so my initial instinct is is to like move towards Ilya and be like, Are you alright? Like, are you sure that that's that's what you're feeling right now? so yeah. it's interesting. You can have I think this is also why a good point to make why it's me and Sylvan are talking about this is that one therapist or counselor is not gonna fit the same person. So you could encounter a counselor who gives you a bad experience because they're just not a good fit with you. whereas if you go back and try someone else, they could be perfect for you. so just be aware that sometimes it takes time to find the correct relationship with the right counselor and therapist. So If you are someone who has had a bad experience of therapy due to the therapist you had, I highly recommend you do look for someone different. and trust that they may just be the perfect sort of match for you. So yeah, keep trying. Silvan (21:07) I love that you bring that up because as somebody who has had to trial different therapists to find the one that I fit in with best or the way they work best. It's so true. A lot of people will try one therapist and if it doesn't work, well they're done and actually it's it's almost like dating in a way, you know, you go on several dates with different people and find the one that fits. It's a bit of a bit of a weird analogy, but it it fits the sort of the trial and error part of it. Declan (21:33) You don't want to Yeah. And it's also down to your own needs in that moment as well. Some people need a hard ass. Someone some people need to be told what's what. Some people need to be treated with a lot more gentleness and care and a bit of coaxing. and some people just need someone that sits and listens. And don't get actively involved all that much and just allows the person to open up. Like there's so many different personality types When it comes to counselors that, you know, just because you don't fit with one doesn't mean you're not gonna fit with anybody. sometimes it can just take a few tries. Silvan (22:13) Can I add to that? So for me, how I am personally is very different to how I would be as a therapist. Not hugely, but I think we talked a little bit about this in the previous episode, like you as therapists and how that aligns to your authenticness as you as a person, Declan. I think for me there are different versions of myself as well, which I present with. So when I'm in a very high stress situation at work, I'm a complete different person. Declan (22:23) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Silvan (22:45) t if I'm sitting in front of somebody working therapeutically. Declan (22:50) Yeah, yeah, that's it. It's like you do have your therapist version of yourself. It's still you, but it's like you put through a certain amount of training and a lens in which a person can make use of you in a room. which is kinda your purpose there. is to sort of be this instrument to help this person change. and so you be whatever version of yourself you need to be for them. Which, you know, isn't as tiring as I I don't find it very tiring because it is still me. It's just a version of me that that's been that's showing certain aspects of myself more than others. like sometimes I am moody and sometimes I am a bit snappish at certain times, but like you will never see those elements of me in the counselling room because that's not that's not the me that's needed in that situation. It's not and so They're not there in that room for that day or for that session. They're still there in me, just not in that environment then and there. So no, it's it's important to have a bit of self awareness of that. A lot of people say I don't know who I am and I feel like I'm being fake and whatever and I feel like I'm a different person with my friends as I am at home and like they're all you. They're all different versions of you. Just some of them you are willing to bring out in front of others and other parts of you you aren't. And that's okay. Silvan (24:21) Completely. And do you know what would be really fun? Couples therapy with Ilya and Shane. However, not the couples therapy people are thinking of, not like Olga sitting them both down. But you know how people have like a couple's massage? Like they have a massage at the same time? Maybe you take Ilya and I take Shane in separate rooms and we have therapy with them separately but at the same time. Declan (24:45) That's interesting. the place I actually work does something very similar where in a family setting, so like they'll bring in their kids, the kids will be taken off to a room to have their therapy and the parents will also then be taken off to a separate room to have their therapy and then they're brought back together then at the end. which I think is a really lovely thing. It feels like a family effort, like working towards something better for everyone, not just trying to pin everything on one individual that's ruining the family. so yeah, I I like I like the idea of that actually. The idea of like having Shane and Ilya. Actually, no, I want the Orna. I want I want Orna in a room with Shane and Ilya and I want to see what she comes up with. Like I c I'm not lying. I do sometimes go, hm, speak more on that whenever I'm in fair, but I do, I do. It's it's so good. It's so cool. Silvan (25:33) Right? Do you do you have the little frowns in your in between your eyebrows that she does? The you know the Exactly I love her. my gosh, if we get her on the podcast, if anyone knows her, please, please. Declan (25:43) speak speak more to that? Yeah, I'm constantly watching her to to try to steal stuff off her. Like it's she's so good. Silvan (25:55) She's so good. I think we have like enough material for another psychology episode in us there, Declan. Declan (26:03) Definitely, a hundred percent. Silvan (26:05) So coming back to the book then, there's a point in this chapter where Ilya says he was going to break up with Shane before the accident happened. Do you think that is true in that had the accident not happened, he would have gone through that? And why? Declan (26:16) I do. Mm. No. No, I don't think he could have, to be honest. No, I don't think he could have done it. I think at this point he's already too attached to. he is not tossing out years of trying with this guy and being with this guy to toss it out in one conversation. I just don't think it will work. I think he would try to initially set distance and I don't think it will work at all. I think as soon as he became so entrenched and miserable in Silvan (26:33) Really? Declan (26:59) like his own sadness and his depression that he would end up just breaking or coming back and restoring contact again. I honestly do believe that that would happen. I think at this point these two are like connected deeply. And I don't think Ilya would last long without Shane. as in like wouldn't last long, you know, staying away from him in a sense. But maybe he might be able to push in that moment enough to like cut it off for a bit, but they're gonna return. Silvan (27:40) Haven't they already been doing that for years? Like one pulls away, the other one comes back, and vice versa, and back and forth for years. So then my query is then why use that in the plot? Why say after he has an accident, Ilia was going to break up with him? What does that serve? Declan (27:47) Yeah. Me, it serves the purpose of letting the reader know that Ilya now cares too much about Shane to leave him, and he values Shane too much that the thought of not having him is no longer bearable and it's no longer gonna really work. he knows that no matter what plan he comes up with, no matter how he intends to break up with him, that he just would never be able to stay away because What's happened to Shane has fully proven to him his feelings. It has fully validated what he feels for Shane and that it's not something that can be let go of. And I think the accent is good at serving that purpose for bringing Illya to that realization of like I was gonna break up with him before that, but that's just not happening now. Like I'm fully aware now that I am in love with this guy and I just could not take a step away from him at this point, especially when he's vulnerable. And so I think It was almost as if Rachel Reed was like Ilya now has the choice to return to the cycle, the previous cycle of the years, where they go their separate ways, they have an argument, they have some distance and then you get back to Gael again and then just repeats and repeats, repeats. This is sort of like the breaking of the pattern. So it is it's like at this point Ilya is supposed to walk away and be like, Okay, trying to create some distance again and but he didn't do that instead Silvan (29:32) Hm. Declan (29:40) When something happens he moves closer, which is outside of the established cycle that they're sorta in, and all of a sudden they are a lot more they're a lot closer, I find, after this point in the book. and they spend more time together after it as well. So no, I think She has used it very well and it was an excellent way of sort of breaking the the known pattern of the relationship up until this point. Silvan (30:19) Yeah, because something had to change and this was the catalyst for change. And I think Rachel Reed, what she does really well here, is she stays consistent with these characters. And I know we've said that she doesn't do that with Kip and Scott, but with Shane and Ilya, there is a consistency that you see where their actions are consistent, not just what they say, but the how they behave, and it feels more authentic and true to their characters. Now I wanted to ask, you know how Shane has this I'm gonna call a near-death experience. We don't know if he's gonna live or die at this point. And you know how in like in a Hollywood movie you get this montage of like of all the memories that flash before you before you die, what do you think would be in Shane's near death experience montage? Declan (30:51) Mm-hmm. Interesting question. probably a whole lot of sex positions of Ilya. if we're being perfectly honest, and a lot of hockey. yeah, I think that's pretty much the answer to that question. I think there would be a lot of Ilya in it. I think there would. I think he's such an informative part of Shane's life. how he grew up, how he matured as a man. They met as kids, basically, as teenagers, and they have grown up together in the adulthood. being a not insignificant part of each other's lives, sometimes sharing the most intimate moments that they have gathered in their lifetime with each other. Like yeah, of course you're gonna you're gonna picture those moments with that person. and obviously all the winning of the cup and his teammates and all that stuff will obviously probably be included as well. His parents will, you know, you need to be included in too. but no I think I think Ilya would would take part. What do you what do you think? Silvan (32:07) I don't know. I'd like to think he would reflect more on his childhood and like playing hockey as a kid because hockey is so important to him. But also playing hockey when it was just for fun. There were n there was n there there were no other variables involved. And how maybe Yoon and David would like watch him practice or Declan (32:18) Mm-hmm. Silvan (32:31) That's kind of where I go to or what I would like him to go to. I think there would be a lot of Ilya, sure. I don't know, it's not something I've actively thought about. It's just something that came to me when you were talking. But definitely a lot more Yoon and David, I think. Declan (32:46) Yeah. That's Yeah. It would probably be a combination of both of our thoughts on it. Like as he examines each part of his life, like what are the important moments, what are the what are the takeaways? I think a big takeaway is that Shane used to find hockey quite fun and now it seems quite pressured. And someone that used to bring us him happiness is now making him miserable because it prevents him from being who he wants to be and seeing the man that he wants to see and yeah. I think if I was to take them into Ferrabe, that would be something I would focus on a hundred percent. Like how you find hockey now? Like does it still fulfill you in the way that it once did? And if it is fulfilling you, in what way? What what's it serving you? Like how are you what are you taking away from it anymore? Like what what what's it filling? and if it's not the things that it used to fill them with, then what has replaced that? And is that good enough a replacement for what you lost? Silvan (33:40) Yeah. Declan (33:49) So yeah, an interesting little thought exercise there seldom. Silvan (33:53) Yeah, I'm all about the you know, the existential crisis. What I think Rachel Reed does really well here as well, is that we see these characters develop over time. And so as you were talking, I was thinking about how Shane and Ilya Did meet when they were like 17 or 18. And I think they're like 25 or 26 now. And then it goes beyond this book as well. But they've literally grown up together. So, and that's what I think makes their relationship when they get to it so much stronger because they've grown and accepted each other as they've been growing. It's not that they've met each other at one point in time and then they've changed and they can't accept each other at a different point. There's this growth that happens for both of them in very different ways through life circumstances. Declan (34:43) Yeah, they're both a big part of each other's lives, even if it's not in like a direct public way. and maybe not in like an overly emotionally attached way, even though they definitely are. They're just not really that aware of it. and so yeah, it would have a significant impact if, say, one of them was to rip themselves out of it. And that's exactly what they try to do with Rose. Shane tried to create a separation, try to create an out. And it just didn't work. So yeah, and obviously when you think of it in the way that you put it, like that makes perfect sense. Like you can't just replace this person that has been a part of Shane's informative years, so easily and it's not easy. Silvan (35:31) Yeah. And one thing that we do get is the will you come to the cottage question. Now this is sort of dropped in a few chapters before, so it's not like come out of Noah, which I actually quite liked. but what we don't get is the vocal stim of Will you come to my cottage this summer? Don't go to Russia. I can't recite it offhand off the cuff, but there is such a sweetness to that scene in the TV show that Declan (36:00) Yeah. Silvan (36:00) I missed reading. Declan (36:03) Yeah. It's almost like you got a look at like the completely unfiltered, affectionate side of Shane as he views Ilya. like the drugstores stripped away the the awkwardness and the stoicism and everything that he puts up as like a shield to not show Ilya how much he actually sort of adores him. And then you get this very, very cute scene. Where Shane is like, No, you're like my favorite person. I want you around me all the time and I I want you to come to this cottage because I really like the cottage and I don't want you to leave and please stay with me. Like it's unashamedly needy, but like in a really cute way. And I don't know why Ilya manages to not immediately commit. but it it is it's cute. It is really cute. Silvan (36:51) Right. It's like morphine is Shane's truth serum. Declan (37:00) Yeah, I mean he should take a lot more of it and see what happens. Silvan (37:06) We wouldn't have a book if he did this in the beginning. Declan (37:09) No, I wouldn't. I think this would be result pretty fecking fast. Silvan (37:14) And and and speaking of resolve, you do get this resolve at the end of the chapter where Ilias sort of says, and you get well soon, Hollander, and Rachel writes, He quickly left the hospital room of the man he loved. And so you get this resolve from him almost breaking up to him to Okay, we're in now. We're both in this. Declan (37:34) Yeah. Yeah, I'm madly in love with you. This is this is a sure thing at this point. but still a bit of hesitancy about sort of maybe leaving Russia entirely and committing himself to Chane, because that is that's the risk that he is now debating about whether or not he should take. for Ilya this is not as simple as attending a college or attending the cottage. It's I'm giving up my culture and my people and what I was raised around for the potential of this relationship with this man. And if that is not a near enough sure possibility of happening, then I don't know if I want to take that jump. And that's where the case comes in. That's where Kip and Scott come into the picture then. Silvan (38:22) Yeah. And speaking of Kip and Scott, so in the next chapter, in chapter twenty-two, this is we this is where we get Scott and Kip's infamous ice rink kiss, right? And there is so much more that happens before that, so I want to break that down. Declan (38:37) Mm. Silvan (38:44) So earlier in this chapter, we see Shane very to the TV show, recovering at home with his parents. And now there's a part of me that really had to chuck. Declan (38:53) It will. Silvan (38:57) There is a part in the book where Shane's mum is almost having a go at Shane and saying, like, get off the phone, it's not good for you. And I would like to formally apologize to all the mums out there who kept telling us, you know, get off the damn phone because it's causing you headaches and all sorts of stuff. So do you know what? Your mums are always right. Declan (39:19) Yeah. And the worst thing about it now is that they're more addicted to their phones than we are. Which is a tragic irony, isn't it? But it's true. I think older generations are worse on their phone than we are. I think I know when to put my phone down during a conversation. Honestly, older generations, th you will literally be sat at a table with them by yourself and they will be on their phone like that while you're looking at them. Like dead eyes stare. Be like, Are you serious? Silvan (39:33) Hundred percent. Right? Like I could have a conversation with one of my parents and like they're on their phone just scrolling. I'm like, can you like look up when you talk to me? Declan (39:57) You see me like twice a year. Silvan (39:59) I know. Show me some love and affection, damn it. But it's just it just took me back to all those times where I got told off for being on my phone too much and I just love that living with your parents is this universal experience for when you're an adult and how interesting that dynamic can be. Declan (40:04) god. Yeah. Especially if you're the rebellious sort and you don't like to be told what to do, which I I I think I'm pretty amicable with my parents. Like I never really got in trouble or fought with them or anything like that growing up, so I was a very easy child. they would probably disagree, like, but I I think they're wrong. but no, I do understand some people do have parents from hell, like fully, and I don't think it's all that uncommon. If I'm being perfectly honest. so obviously those people will have it worse. But in general, it's usually coming from a place of care and habit, I think, of like trying to look after you, even though you're like, I'm 29 years old. You don't really need to tell me how long I need to be spent on my phone. but it is it's always like it's usually coming from a good place. but it is universal. Like your parents just can't stop caring about you and Sometimes that looks a bit annoying. Silvan (41:27) It is, and it does come from a good place. And I think for research purposes, we need to have Declan's mum on the pod, or at least me have a conversation with her, to find out what you actually were like as a teenager. I'm not so sure you're that easy child. Declan (41:35) No. I honestly think that she will tell you that I was the easiest of her children. Silvan (41:49) Easy by comparison. Declan (41:51) Yeah, I mean I I resent this accusation that I was at all difficult. I was very quiet, very responsible. Well not responsible, I was a wee bit stupid, but very nice. I didn't talk back. Silvan (42:09) I just think we need to hear direct from your mum and get the truth. Investigative journalism. Declan (42:15) I'll I'll I'll ask her if if she'd be interested. Silvan (42:21) If you want Declan's mum to come on the pod, please leave a comment and we will take a poll or something. Like I would love this. Declan (42:24) god. Yeah, I'll I'll ask her if that's someone that she would be interested in. Silvan (42:36) And so when we come back to this ca to this chapter, there's this point where Shane is describing how he could, you know, he was remembering the details of the hospital and he could remember Elia's gentle fingers on his face and his hair, and he remembered being so happy. And there was something in me that sort of brought me back to the body keeps the school. Now, I know it's a little bit controversial right now because some of the theories are getting debunked, and there's lots of academic ping pong matches with the theories right now. But to me, what this brought to me was that there is this visceral memory that we have where just a single touch can elicit so much. Declan (43:16) Hmm. Yeah. It's that sort of sensory memory, that reminder of a bit in a place in a time. Like it's actually it can be related back to trauma and things like that there. Like you associate certain sensory inputs with certain things that happened and they elicit an emotion in reaction to that. Your memory is very good at recording how you felt in a moment, more so than the details of the moment itself. like I remember like from past relationships, situations and arguments that I don't remember how they started, I don't remember who they involved or what I was angry about. I just remember the feeling of anger, like real anger and hurt. but funny, all the other details have completely faded. Only the memory remain or only only the feeling remains. So sometimes if I am like like if I smell smoke on someone's clothes, it takes me back to a memory of whenever I was younger as a child and I find some guys in the back of a place setting bushes on fire. That's what that reminds me of. And getting in trouble and feeling sad and hurt because my parents were angry at me because I came home smelling of smoke and smelling of that that smell. so that's what that that feeling gets summoned up in me whenever I get that sensory input and that memory appears. So little moments of touch or certain smells or tastes can take you back to a moment in time and remind you of the emotions that you had in that moment. So yeah, it's a nice little detail, I think. Silvan (45:07) Yeah, I can almost imagine like the smell of the ice rink having a very distinct sort of smell. I don't know what that how to describe that, but I can imagine that being quite powerfully sensory for both of them. Declan (45:18) We'll figure it out Like a smell of like cold. Like cold does have a smell. I am like it definitely does. I don't know how to describe it. I couldn't like name it, but cold has like a smell, and I do get that idea of an ice rank. Like there is a smell in an ice rank, there is a smell in that space. So yeah, I'm on board. Silvan (45:25) Hmm. Mm-hmm. hell yeah. Yeah, I can a hundred percent confirm that cold has a smell because I came from a very pleasant, hot country and coming to the UK definitely jarred me. and every time like in winter I open my window, it's you know, there is a moment where I'm like, Whoo, okay, I maybe I don't belong here some days. but speaking of sort of what we talked about in the previous chapter where Ilya was thinking, I can't do this anymore, I need to break up with Shane. Declan (45:53) Yeah. Silvan (46:12) It's interesting now that we get Shane thinking this in this chapter. So he says, Shane just had a sense that maybe this whole thing had become too much. The only safe option was to walk away. Now, Rachel Reed. You know, if we ever get on the pod, that would be amazing. Who knows? Why are you doing this to us in this chapter? We've already been through it in the previous one. Why are you trying to break us? Declan (46:45) I think it's just Shane's turn to doubt again. these two seem to have a back and forth of who can doubt the most. At this point Think Shane is just It's just getting too complicated for him. He's just he's trying to think of all these details, he's trying to think of how he would make this work and he can't see it working. Like he cannot visualize a moment in time when they can be together and have everything that they want and what they need. or if it's even something that Iliah is committed enough to even pursue, and I think that's a big reason for these thoughts, is that he's not sure what like right now he's risking something for nothing because he Don't see the value in this relationship yet. he knows he cares about Ilya, he knows that he likes him, they have great sex together and he is attached to him, but it's like, where is this going? Like, why am I pouring my energy and my fears into this if I can't see it with a future? Which is where Scott and keep coming. Silvan (47:58) Yeah, yeah, definitely. And there is something about the end of the chapter coming with Scott and Kip where you get this sort of revelation, right? where Scott and Kip have this wildly romantic, larger than life kiss on the ice rink. Now I know several people Who did not read Game Changer, and that's fine, that's their choice. They went straight to Heated Rivalry and then read the long game. Now, if you skipped Game Changer, you've missed out on all of this buildup and what this means. Declan (48:35) Mm, yeah. Because there are consequences in a positive way for what Scott and Kip do that are made very clear at the end of game changers. Like, this is a big deal. Like, this is like blown up this sport. and knowing the impact of and consequence of what this kiss means. You can now understand where Shane and Ilya are getting their reaction from. It's like, my God, you actually did that. That's this is gonna change everything. And for them, it gives them one thing that they were desperately looking for for this relationship, which is hope. Hope that they can be together, hope that they can one day be accepted for who they are. Maybe not today, but there is now a new version of a future that they could both be a part of and Scott and Kip are leading the way for what that could look like. And it's a huge moment, it's a big revelation. It's it's them finally being given permission to try. Silvan (49:47) Absolutely. To the point where where I finished this chapter, I went back to Game Changer and reread that last few chapters because it just brought me back and I was like, I need to re-experience this again to really feel the veracity and the fullness of what's gone on in the end of this chapter and heated rivalry. And one thing that you said was it gave them hope. And I completely agree, it does give them hope, but there's also such a lot. of sadness attached to that for me. It's the fact that they need someone who's been more, I don't know, who's been in the industry a lot longer for them to be able to come out in a very public way to just give them hope that maybe, maybe one day they could do the same. Not that they could, because they're still not on that page. But maybe it'll be more acceptable because somebody else has sort of done it first. Declan (50:38) Mm, yeah. Silvan (50:44) probably taken the brunt of it first, let's be honest. And it it makes me sad at the same time. Declan (50:53) Yeah, because reminder, there are no Autaki players in the NHL today. Actively no. Silvan (50:59) Actively, yeah. I think there's one retired hockey player. Declan (51:03) Yeah. I mean no one wants to be the sacrificial lamb. So they don't no one wants to be the one that has to bear the initial abuse. And that's completely understandable. like you obviously know what it's like to hide yourself, to to be terrified of what the people that you care about think of you and How they'll treat you and and the people you'll lose as a result of it. Imagine being a professional athlete and having the pressure of that and the public image and the sport and the abuse and the nastiness, where slurs, insults, racism, sexism, homophobia, everything is thrown around in these sports very casually by fans, and you are giving them a huge fucking stick to hit you over the head with at any time they please. And it takes an immense amount of vulnerability to, you know, weaponize people with that sort of material to use against you. and that's scary. So it is. And could be mentally devastating. So it does not Silvan (52:00) Mm-hmm. Declan (52:26) shock me that we haven't had this yet. because in these sports, in these cultures, it's still pretty appropriate to just horribly abuse someone verbally and treat them like dirt. And we're not hardwired as people to be able to take that. That's just not something we can do in the long term. So it's sad. Silvan (52:52) No, and this is why we need therapies for some of us afterwards. yeah, it is sad. But I think that's why it takes a character like Scott, who is in the book not that much more older than them, really. I think he's like three or four years older, not even. so for a character like that it takes a lot of strength and a lot of courage to be able to do because Ilya and Shane have not been able to do that. And I don't think they would have, honestly. Declan (53:04) No, no. Mm-hmm. No, I I don't see them ever finding that courage. Shane definitely not. Absolutely not. Ilya Ilya, I feel like i it's something he would have just set aside. he has the I suppose he has his bisexuality, so he would rather them focus on men, try to focus on women instead, find a nice girl to marry, get the green card, just like he said, and the total chain. Or Shane wouldn't even have that option. He would just sort of have to live in abject misery until he retires. which is an incredibly sad existence to waste most of your life in anxiety, unable to live your true self or to love who you want to love, and that's just a bit tragic. And I think that's the tragedy of their story is that they are so in love and they are so right for each other in all the wrong or in all the all the ways you can imagine and then not being able to to have it and to love it and love it. It's just just crap for them. So this kiss between Scott and Kip is it's a catalyst for change. And change is very sorely needed to create an environment where these two are able to actually come out. Silvan (54:26) Yeah. Yeah, and where we get this hope is in the most iconic line in the whole book, in the whole TV show I'm coming to the cottage Chef's Kiss. Declan (54:52) Yes. Yes. Excellent. Excellent writing. Well done. Silvan (54:58) So I think we're gonna stop there for today because the aftermath of this I mean I have so many notes on, but I think let's stop there for today because I have seven pages of notes in the next chapter alone. Declan (55:12) If it gets fair, yeah. On the bright side we did get through like what, a couple of chapters. That's impressive for us, especially considering what we were talking about. We did go off on like a tangent about like psychology for a bit, like but that always happens with us, so Silvan (55:16) We did two chapters. That's hu that's huge for us. It's it's in us. It's it there's no way we can't not talk about it. Declan (55:29) Yeah. But that is all the time we have for today. thank you so much for joining us. I know that we are taking our time, but I hope you are enjoying it. we're having a great time reviewing it. So if you liked it, make sure you comment on wherever you're watching it or listening to it. share it. If you have questions for me and Sylvan, make sure to ask them. and also feel free to join us on our Fable. which is our book club. It's the Long Game Pod Book Club. at the moment, we are currently deciding on what our next read is. we're just finishing up with Oleander by Scarlett Drake, which is a fantastic book centered around an MM romance spin on a great expectations, but done in sort of like a modern contemporary way. Really, really brilliant book, fantastic writing. but we are choosing our next book. So if you want to be part of that, make sure you join that. Silvan (56:28) And just a reminder for everybody that we are going to be having a meetup in Belfast in Ireland on the nineteenth of July. So if you're free or you're nearby and you want to come, there will be a link to a Google form where you can submit your contact details and then we can release more information closer to the time. Declan (56:48) and yeah. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time and hopefully we'll get through a couple more chapters.