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Duke: All right, welcome back to
another episode of CJ in the Duke.

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So this one's a weird one, Cory, can
I just go for a rant at the start?

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CJ: Yeah, let's, all right,
we gonna break up the flow.

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Go for it, man.

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Duke: Alright.

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It's no secret that ServiceNow is not
the only tool of its type in the market.

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True.

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, CJ: I don't know, , duke, , I honestly,
only see ServiceNow Green Duke,

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Duke: Well, I mean, I've worked
for ServiceNow now, so I'm

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like, I'm fully bought in.

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I'm not trying to convince anybody
to even look at something else.

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But I guess what I'm saying is
you see a lot more advertising

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for other types of tools, right.

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, And

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CJ: That's a lot of

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Duke: yeah, and because
ServiceNow is the champion, right?

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Everybody tries to market themselves
as different from the champion , and

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maybe not respectfully at all, right.

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ServiceNow did it when it was
the underdog, and now that it

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is Top Dog, we're seeing other
players say, well, we're better

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than ServiceNow because Right.

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One thing that I've been seeing a lot of
is this idea of oh, we switched to such

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and such a tool because on ServiceNow
it was taking us days, weeks, or months

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to get even simple form changes done.

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And on the one hand, you can rate
tools based off of their capability

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of building things, right.

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CJ: Right.

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Duke: You can rate what type of
things they can build, what complexity

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of things they build, how easy is
it for, , people to build on it.

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These are all things that you can
objectively measure, but it struck

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me as odd, like how would a tool.

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Like ServiceNow that had its explosive
growth because of the ease of which

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you could build on it suddenly get a
reputation among some people, right?

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Of, hey, it's too slow to build on it.

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And I've been sleeping on it and I feel
like there's paradoxes here there's many,

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many reasons people can get in a position
where it's slow to do stuff on ServiceNow.

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That's got nothing to do with its
competitiveness on building stuff.

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CJ: Yeah.

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Duke: that all make sense?

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CJ: Yeah, duke, I think I get
what you're saying on this right,

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is, fast isn't always the goal,

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Duke: Yeah.

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Well, I mean it could be,
but , there's things that you

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can do that will slow you down.

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Some of them good, right?

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And some of them absolutely awful.

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And those awful things especially will
not help you when you go to another

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tool 'cause they're still there.

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CJ: Right.

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And so the way I talk to my clients
about this is that, there are

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things that are, endemic to the
tool that you can't get around.

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But then there are also things that
your company, put around the tool.

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that can be causing some of your issues.

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And so if you ever start thinking
about going to something else, the

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first thing you need to figure out
is, is it the tool that's holding

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you back or is it your processes?

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Is it your company?

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Right?

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Because

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Duke: your approach to build
or something like that.

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So anyway, I thought it might be
fun to deconstruct some of these

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paradoxes that could put you in a
place where you're like, oh, it is

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really slow, and why is it slow?

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Et cetera.

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, So that you can have a better
experience building with ServiceNow.

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for another decade, for another, you
know, for another two decades, for

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as long as you use this awesome tool.

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CJ: and I think Duke  , this
is incredibly important.

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Honestly, I.

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in the context that you set it
up, , with competitors coming

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out , and saying, , well we can do
this or that, or quicker or whatever.

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But also, even if you just take that
out of the, conversation, it's always

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good to know why you're getting the
results that you're getting, right?

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Because there might be competing
interests internally, that make you

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wanna optimize one way or the other.

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And the only way you can do that is
if you know why you are where you are.

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Duke: Yes, exactly.

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Understand , why you are where you are.

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So the thing that shocked me on one
of these other tool advertisements

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is , they had a customer come out and
say, yeah, we needed this new tool.

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Because on ServiceNow it was taking us
days or weeks or months to get something

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done, like a simple form change.

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And it, really caught me off
guard because it's like, no, it

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doesn't, you know, it doesn't take.

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I mean, mechanically it takes seconds.

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Right?

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CJ: Right.

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Duke: Or at least it should, it
should take, so, so what are some

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of the things that would get in the
way of making a simple form change?

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Air quotes, right?

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what would get in the way of making
that a really fast, easy thing to do?

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CJ: First thing that I
think about is approval.

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How long does it take to
get somebody to sign off?

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Duke: Governance.

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Right.

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And it's fair to say that
governance makes things slower,

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CJ: Absolutely.

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That's the, whole job of
governance, honestly, in some cases,

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? It, is.

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To slow down the process.

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Duke: I think there's a strong case
to be made that good governance makes

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the big stuff go faster eventually.

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But at the margins, good governance
also just makes things slower

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because it's not Bob asked for it.

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So Bob gets whatever he wants all
the time, always So, if it's going

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slower, and obviously, like, I wouldn't
say slow, like governance shouldn't

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make things slow, just slower than.

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As fast as it theoretically could be.

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CJ: an appropriate speed
for the conditions.

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Duke: yeah, yeah, exactly.

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Like my car can go not very fast,

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but certainly way faster than I'm allowed
to take it anywhere around town, you know?

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CJ: Right?

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Yes, absolutely.

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, And it is weird too, right?

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Because cars are made to go a hundred
and sixty, a hundred eighty, two hundred

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miles an hour on the dash, right?

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But speed limits, you know what, anywhere
between 20 and 85, depending on what

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state and what type of road, right?

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Nobody has a speed limit
in America of like 120.

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Duke: Yeah.

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For the Germans out there, there's
no auto bond in the US at all.

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Ever.

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Sucks, but

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CJ: Yeah.

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So, what it comes down to is
that, capacity sometimes, , needs

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to be restricted by governance,
because otherwise you end up with a

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situation where you get accidents.

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I like this metaphor.

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Duke: Yeah.

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Well, actually it's a great,
segue too to the next point.

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Well, what makes you slow
tech debt makes you slow.

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I have this horror story.

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I once worked as, a platform
owner for a customer.

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And when I first arrived there, they
had this huge backlog, like, how come

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it takes so long to get a group created?

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And I'm like, gosh, it should just be a
super easy snap your fingers, type in the

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name of your group there, you got your
group the tool doesn't make that slow,

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but , As one does, one builds a group.

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There, you're done.

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And they're like, no, I don't
have access to this or that.

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And I don't see anything on the
navigator bar, and I don't see any

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of the fields on the incident form.

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And then you look and see and you're
like, oh, well, every single field

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now has an ACL that's governed by
group, you know, and every single

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navigator bar, entry, hard codes,
what groups are able to see it?

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And it's just

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CJ: Oh

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Duke: all the stuff that you
built around that were dumb ideas,

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CJ: yeah.

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Duke: you know, that are now speed bumps
in your way to get simple stuff done.

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That should be lightning quick.

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And is that the tool's fault?

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CJ: I'm gonna take a little bit of a, a
controversial, stab at this one, ? Because

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there's two different, , perspectives
I think on this a one perspective,

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is where we're going with it is no,
it's not the tool's fault, right?

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it's the context, right?

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It's what the things that we set up around
it or the things that we put into it

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that made it slow, Like somebody built
this system out with,, a bunch of weird.

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Requirements.

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In order to make it work, right?

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Like if you want to add a
group, it's not just the docs,

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explanation of adding a group.

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It's all of this other constraints
that somebody put in, into the

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instance that you now gotta abide by.

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Well, one that you now have to discover
and then you have to abide by, So

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there's all of that tech debt that you
really need to rip out and rebuild.

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Then there's the other perspective, and
this one is a little, controversial.

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there's the question of whether or not
the system should allow you to do that.

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And that is also one of those paradoxes,
right, of flexibility versus allowing

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you to get yourself in trouble.

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Duke: yeah, I hear you.

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It's,  I'm very curious what the
upper limit of, an automatic robotic

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tool-based way to do that is, right.

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So like, how can you give maximal
flexibility while also preventing people

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from using that flexibility in bad ways?

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CJ: Yeah, man.

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Duke: competing virtues there.

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I think ServiceNow goes a long, long way
I wish I had what ServiceNow is today.

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Back when I started like instant
scan, atf, like you just stuff, you

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could just say look for these bad
ideas or failed test or whatever.

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And just tell me, warn me,
ServiceNow recently bought Brav, uh.

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Best practice engine too.

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And that thing, I can't wait for that
thing to get fully integrated where as

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you're coding tell you, important best
practice information as you're building.

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you know, there's more tools now
than ever before that way, but

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you can still ignore the warnings

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CJ: yeah, absolutely.

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you can still drive your
car without the seatbelt on.

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Duke: Yeah.

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And it's, there's an
artifice to this, right?

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Because there are times where it's just
like, well, everybody does it this way.

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You should too.

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And they're like, yeah, but we're special.

00:10:09.752 --> 00:10:11.912
And sometimes they actually are,

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CJ: Right,

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Duke: and, and, and this way of doing
things scales really well, But other times

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Maybe somebody had all the political
clout and they used it badly and they

00:10:23.139 --> 00:10:28.235
forced you to put in a bad solution
that, just puts a speed bump in your way

00:10:28.235 --> 00:10:30.095
for the rest of your service nowadays.

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CJ: Yeah.

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Now you have to explain that
to your user base, right?

00:10:33.668 --> 00:10:36.728
Because all they wanted was an
extra field on the incident form.

00:10:37.028 --> 00:10:37.358
Right?

00:10:37.448 --> 00:10:42.258
I would like to be able to see the
callers phone number on the form,

00:10:42.538 --> 00:10:44.548
why can't I just, why isn't that.

00:10:44.898 --> 00:10:47.838
Something you can do like right
now, like while I'm standing here.

00:10:48.031 --> 00:10:48.811
Isn't that easy?

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Why can, like, why does that take a month?

00:10:51.819 --> 00:10:55.449
You would have to have, you'll say, well,
CJ and the Duke's got this great episode.

00:10:55.449 --> 00:10:56.949
Listen to the first 15 minutes.

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And, you know, and, but, but
should that be the case, right?

00:11:01.689 --> 00:11:05.786
Like, should you, have to tell someone,
or let me walk you through all of , these

00:11:05.786 --> 00:11:10.506
reasons, like why development here
is slow and why, , just add an extra

00:11:10.506 --> 00:11:12.616
field on the form, takes a long time.

00:11:13.266 --> 00:11:18.366
You should not have to, but that is
often just the case of it, because

00:11:18.366 --> 00:11:21.226
again, of the paradox of, maturity,

00:11:22.646 --> 00:11:23.186
Duke: Yeah.

00:11:24.116 --> 00:11:28.649
And it's just, a proper communication
with your stakeholders,  especially

00:11:28.649 --> 00:11:31.919
for that one specific example is
just gonna pay off in dividends.

00:11:32.375 --> 00:11:33.845
didn't we do an episode on that too?

00:11:33.985 --> 00:11:35.155
Talking to your stakeholders?

00:11:35.215 --> 00:11:36.445
It's gotta be in there somewhere.

00:11:37.000 --> 00:11:37.930
CJ: Yeah, we did.

00:11:37.930 --> 00:11:38.380
We did.

00:11:38.380 --> 00:11:41.200
Um, and you talked about the,
um, was it the product advisory

00:11:41.635 --> 00:11:41.995
Duke: Yeah.

00:11:42.055 --> 00:11:42.445
Yeah.

00:11:43.060 --> 00:11:44.680
We'll put a link in the description below.

00:11:44.680 --> 00:11:45.550
Everybody take a shot,

00:11:48.520 --> 00:11:51.718
uh, to, to talk about that because
there's just so many ways to skin that

00:11:51.718 --> 00:11:53.948
cat, you have a user reference there.

00:11:54.008 --> 00:11:57.308
You could just hover over that popup
and with a, like a picosecond mouse

00:11:57.308 --> 00:11:58.958
movement, you can access the information.

00:11:58.958 --> 00:12:02.318
You don't even have to click and
there's their number, So do you just

00:12:02.318 --> 00:12:03.938
need to be able to see it sometimes?

00:12:04.118 --> 00:12:05.768
Do you need to interact with it?

00:12:06.183 --> 00:12:08.283
, Maybe what you really need
is to just click on it and

00:12:08.283 --> 00:12:09.543
have your system auto dial.

00:12:09.543 --> 00:12:10.803
Like, wouldn't that be crazy?

00:12:11.133 --> 00:12:14.986
But it's almost never as simple as,
Hey, I just need this field on a form,

00:12:15.381 --> 00:12:19.208
CJ: No, typically not But
assuming that it is, even if it

00:12:19.208 --> 00:12:21.218
is right, sometimes there are.

00:12:21.218 --> 00:12:25.238
Governance checks that you gotta go
through before you can even do that,

00:12:25.753 --> 00:12:25.973
Duke: man.

00:12:26.105 --> 00:12:27.411
and nobody, fully, I.

00:12:27.411 --> 00:12:31.501
Appreciates how, one man's
treasure is another man's trash,

00:12:31.788 --> 00:12:32.208
CJ: Yeah.

00:12:32.233 --> 00:12:32.453
Yep.

00:12:32.508 --> 00:12:36.231
Duke: So okay, you get your, standard
email and standard mobile phone

00:12:36.231 --> 00:12:39.501
number underneath the username
field on the incident form.

00:12:39.586 --> 00:12:40.846
But buddy who.

00:12:41.240 --> 00:12:43.880
Almost had to scroll to get to the field.

00:12:43.880 --> 00:12:48.500
He wants every single day now
has to scroll every single day

00:12:48.500 --> 00:12:49.670
to get to the field he wants.

00:12:49.700 --> 00:12:54.103
'cause his field got pushed down two
more levels, under the fold of the form.

00:12:54.486 --> 00:12:57.590
And so, yeah, one person got that what
they want with that new field, but

00:12:57.590 --> 00:13:01.996
somebody else now has a harder time
because they got one more step to perform.

00:13:02.196 --> 00:13:02.916
CJ: Exactly.

00:13:03.126 --> 00:13:07.770
And did anybody, you know do any UAT on
that new field you put on incident, right.

00:13:07.770 --> 00:13:08.790
That has that phone number?

00:13:08.790 --> 00:13:08.850
No.

00:13:09.360 --> 00:13:12.900
Duke: Or was there a stakeholder
council to like really talk about

00:13:12.900 --> 00:13:15.300
this stuff before you brought
it to the ServiceNow team?

00:13:16.115 --> 00:13:16.405
CJ: Yeah.

00:13:16.633 --> 00:13:18.583
Duke: And like, just think
about the math on this.

00:13:18.763 --> 00:13:22.153
If you have a user that wants
something done a certain way, they

00:13:22.153 --> 00:13:26.988
want solution a and solution A will
buy necessity mess with somebody.

00:13:26.988 --> 00:13:28.158
who wants solution B?

00:13:28.435 --> 00:13:30.625
And you can't, and you can't
have it both ways all the time.

00:13:30.625 --> 00:13:30.985
Right.

00:13:31.195 --> 00:13:34.675
And so the net effect for
your team is an upset user.

00:13:35.042 --> 00:13:38.012
You granted one wish, but
you still had one upset user.

00:13:38.012 --> 00:13:38.687
What did you gain?

00:13:40.142 --> 00:13:40.682
CJ: Right, right.

00:13:40.682 --> 00:13:41.252
Exactly.

00:13:41.315 --> 00:13:45.355
you went from, , one happy user
and one upset user to one happy

00:13:45.355 --> 00:13:47.545
user and one upset user, right?

00:13:48.145 --> 00:13:50.575
Duke: like literally nothing
changed except you worked hard

00:13:50.599 --> 00:13:53.294
for that tiny amount of time it
took to to, to make that change.

00:13:53.505 --> 00:13:54.675
CJ: Yeah, exactly.

00:13:54.725 --> 00:14:00.505
The point of governance is to be
able to, expose that, to elevate

00:14:00.505 --> 00:14:04.498
that and to have someone making the
decisions that, can highlight, Hey,

00:14:04.498 --> 00:14:09.208
you should or should not do this
because it will or it won't do this.

00:14:09.365 --> 00:14:15.339
And Whenever I hear folks tell me,
things like, ServiceNow is slow or

00:14:15.339 --> 00:14:18.969
it, takes so long to do a development
thing and I automatically think, well,

00:14:19.089 --> 00:14:20.199
what did you do to it?

00:14:20.424 --> 00:14:20.814
Duke: Yep.

00:14:21.549 --> 00:14:24.009
CJ: because it's like,
you, do you wanna demo?

00:14:24.299 --> 00:14:28.799
It might take five minutes for my PDI
to spin up, but after my PDI spins

00:14:28.799 --> 00:14:33.109
up I can give you an incident demo in
another five minutes that shows you

00:14:33.109 --> 00:14:37.844
all the stuff that I could do rather
quickly, and that's the product, what

00:14:37.844 --> 00:14:40.514
you might be using, not the product.

00:14:40.514 --> 00:14:45.704
Well, kind of, right, but it's the
product plus your stuff, your baggage.

00:14:45.854 --> 00:14:50.124
What did you bring to the
relationship, Maybe you need

00:14:50.124 --> 00:14:51.534
to get some product therapy.

00:14:52.484 --> 00:14:53.174
I like that.

00:14:53.174 --> 00:14:55.394
That might be a, that might
become a product offering.

00:14:56.159 --> 00:14:56.969
Duke: Product therapy.

00:14:57.944 --> 00:14:58.544
CJ: Yes.

00:14:59.839 --> 00:15:00.129
Duke: Yeah.

00:15:01.154 --> 00:15:02.384
CJ: Because that's what it is, duke.

00:15:02.654 --> 00:15:05.004
It's what did you bring,
to this relationship?

00:15:05.004 --> 00:15:05.874
To screw it up,

00:15:06.099 --> 00:15:09.872
Duke: Yeah, it happens all the time,
which is why we keep on saying, you

00:15:09.872 --> 00:15:11.762
have to learn to be a good storyteller.

00:15:11.762 --> 00:15:15.062
You have to be a good communicator,
you have to have stakeholder councils.

00:15:15.122 --> 00:15:18.982
And the reasons we say this stuff
is that you can get politically

00:15:18.982 --> 00:15:21.172
outmaneuvered to build stupid shit.

00:15:21.795 --> 00:15:22.015
CJ: Yes.

00:15:22.222 --> 00:15:26.092
Duke: another case in point, it was
one of my first jobs as a ServiceNow

00:15:26.092 --> 00:15:31.783
admin, and we were buying smaller sized
companies that were big companies,

00:15:31.783 --> 00:15:34.093
right there, were smaller than
us, but they were still big enough

00:15:34.093 --> 00:15:36.118
companies to have their IT departments.

00:15:36.313 --> 00:15:40.243
And there was a time we were
buying like one or two a month.

00:15:41.626 --> 00:15:44.476
It was just like, this company
has to be completely integrated

00:15:44.476 --> 00:15:45.946
into our shared services model.

00:15:46.156 --> 00:15:47.206
How long does that take?

00:15:47.206 --> 00:15:51.219
The PMs are like, it's gonna take three
months, and the C-suite saying, you

00:15:51.219 --> 00:15:55.313
got a week,  integrate this company
fully into our shared services model.

00:15:55.343 --> 00:15:58.168
That's why we bought them, you know?

00:15:58.748 --> 00:15:58.968
Um,

00:15:58.998 --> 00:15:59.478
CJ: Right.

00:16:00.188 --> 00:16:00.408
Duke: and.

00:16:00.673 --> 00:16:04.723
a couple people up the chain looked
at ServiceNow and said, oh, this

00:16:04.723 --> 00:16:06.373
domain separation sounds about right.

00:16:06.373 --> 00:16:07.483
Build domain separation.

00:16:07.598 --> 00:16:08.563
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

00:16:08.643 --> 00:16:11.619
This isn't a case where everybody's
got their own thing,  We have to

00:16:11.619 --> 00:16:13.449
integrate them, not separate them,

00:16:14.899 --> 00:16:16.699
CJ: It's the complete
opposite, like that solution.

00:16:17.179 --> 00:16:17.629
Yeah.

00:16:17.854 --> 00:16:18.064
Duke: no.

00:16:18.064 --> 00:16:20.401
D deploy, deploy, domain separation.

00:16:20.458 --> 00:16:21.868
And I was so lucky.

00:16:21.868 --> 00:16:26.228
I was so blessed that back in the
day when we went to Knowledge and

00:16:26.228 --> 00:16:29.091
we talked to the domain separation
team, and they were just like, no,

00:16:31.251 --> 00:16:33.441
like respectfully and sorry.

00:16:33.441 --> 00:16:35.631
No, we will never do this to you.

00:16:35.631 --> 00:16:36.531
And you'll thank us later.

00:16:37.041 --> 00:16:38.091
I thank them later.

00:16:38.128 --> 00:16:39.778
but , that kind of stuff
happens all the time.

00:16:39.778 --> 00:16:45.461
So you have to be able to get into the
trenches and be able to communicate the

00:16:45.461 --> 00:16:48.191
right solution, not the fast solution.

00:16:48.478 --> 00:16:49.168
CJ: Yes,

00:16:49.468 --> 00:16:52.558
Duke: people want magic bullets,
only simple ideas scale.

00:16:52.618 --> 00:16:56.008
And so if they latch onto this thing that
seems simple at the start, so they could

00:16:56.008 --> 00:16:58.701
go fast, you can have ruinous decisions.

00:16:59.364 --> 00:17:01.394
CJ: I'm sorry, duke, I
wanna just bring that back.

00:17:01.454 --> 00:17:04.274
Did you say only simple ideas scale

00:17:05.084 --> 00:17:08.139
like I, because 'cause I think
that's genius, it absolutely is true.

00:17:08.439 --> 00:17:13.419
, you can make as many changes
to a form as you want.

00:17:13.749 --> 00:17:17.739
If those changes are simple and
your governance is nonexistent,

00:17:18.504 --> 00:17:18.804
Duke: Yeah.

00:17:18.819 --> 00:17:22.299
CJ: You can do that all day,
it will take you five minutes.

00:17:22.509 --> 00:17:26.369
Wouldn't even take you five minutes, ? But
as soon as you introduce complexity,

00:17:26.369 --> 00:17:29.579
as soon as you introduce something
like multiple stakeholders, as soon

00:17:29.579 --> 00:17:33.059
as you introduce something like change
management, as soon as you introduce

00:17:33.059 --> 00:17:34.969
something like, , integrations.

00:17:35.179 --> 00:17:40.139
? All of a sudden now,, what was a
simple process is now a complicated

00:17:40.139 --> 00:17:44.699
one and it now it's gotta go
through governance and you, it's

00:17:44.699 --> 00:17:46.589
not gonna scale at the same level.

00:17:46.619 --> 00:17:50.583
That making a change to a form with
no governance will a simple one.

00:17:50.643 --> 00:17:50.733
Right.

00:17:51.843 --> 00:17:55.833
Duke: like remember, remember that
mutual client we had not that long ago?

00:17:56.493 --> 00:17:56.943
CJ: Yeah.

00:17:57.333 --> 00:17:59.223
Duke: They had that one
catalog item, right?

00:17:59.223 --> 00:18:01.913
They're like, how come this just can't
be easy, we need to onboard these

00:18:01.913 --> 00:18:03.713
types of people super, super fast.

00:18:03.813 --> 00:18:05.943
How come this form doesn't already exist?

00:18:06.063 --> 00:18:08.853
How come when I use the
creator request generic form?

00:18:08.973 --> 00:18:12.033
This stuff just doesn't
magically, automatically resolve.

00:18:12.333 --> 00:18:15.213
Like the customers hated the
current experience, right?

00:18:15.738 --> 00:18:16.068
CJ: Yep.

00:18:16.593 --> 00:18:19.219
Duke: And they didn't
know what to ask for.

00:18:19.219 --> 00:18:22.369
They just knew the current
situation sucked and.

00:18:22.759 --> 00:18:26.953
We ended up having that multi-row
variable set catalog item that we

00:18:26.953 --> 00:18:29.983
deployed so that they can enter as
many of these new starters as they

00:18:29.983 --> 00:18:34.333
wanted, and it would run through the
process and it ended up being magic.

00:18:34.744 --> 00:18:35.404
CJ: Amen.

00:18:35.742 --> 00:18:38.532
Duke: because just because they said
it simple doesn't mean it's simple.

00:18:38.831 --> 00:18:39.311
CJ: Right.

00:18:39.761 --> 00:18:43.421
Duke: and Corey and I, I don't
know about Corey, but I'm old.

00:18:43.451 --> 00:18:50.752
Like I'm, I'm I'm real old and
I've been through this cycle twice.

00:18:51.107 --> 00:18:52.907
I did years on Magic.

00:18:52.907 --> 00:18:53.987
Total Service desk.

00:18:54.437 --> 00:18:55.277
CJ: I was there with you,

00:18:55.307 --> 00:18:55.487
Duke: Yeah.

00:18:55.487 --> 00:18:58.067
Give yourself a cookie if you know
what Magic Total Service Desk is.

00:18:58.367 --> 00:19:01.547
I spent years on HP OVSD 5.1.

00:19:02.177 --> 00:19:03.182
CJ: wasn't there with you?

00:19:03.557 --> 00:19:03.707
Duke: Yeah.

00:19:04.982 --> 00:19:06.032
Go brush your teeth.

00:19:06.032 --> 00:19:09.872
If you've ever talked, if
you've ever seen ovs D 5.1,

00:19:10.022 --> 00:19:11.582
get that bad taste outta your mouth.

00:19:11.882 --> 00:19:15.302
and I've done it with ServiceNow, like
if there's one thing I've learned over

00:19:15.302 --> 00:19:19.590
and over and over again dealing with
this three separate times, is that the

00:19:19.590 --> 00:19:21.870
customer always thinks it's simple.

00:19:22.364 --> 00:19:24.404
Like customer in big,
fat air quotes, right?

00:19:24.404 --> 00:19:27.674
Like you could be the product owner at
your org and the person who sits next to

00:19:27.674 --> 00:19:29.654
you wants something that's your customer.

00:19:29.654 --> 00:19:29.924
Right?

00:19:30.134 --> 00:19:32.564
So like, it's always simple to them,

00:19:33.246 --> 00:19:33.696
CJ: Yes.

00:19:33.696 --> 00:19:35.916
And that's because they don't
know what it they, yeah.

00:19:35.916 --> 00:19:36.666
They don't know.

00:19:36.966 --> 00:19:39.006
Yeah, I could, I could just
stop this statement there.

00:19:39.126 --> 00:19:40.086
It's because they don't know.

00:19:40.206 --> 00:19:40.416
Right.

00:19:40.416 --> 00:19:41.376
All they know is the outcomes.

00:19:41.376 --> 00:19:42.096
they, want the outcomes.

00:19:42.411 --> 00:19:44.061
Duke: and we're not even
saying they should know, right?

00:19:44.178 --> 00:19:45.888
Just trust me that I'm
gonna take care of you.

00:19:46.953 --> 00:19:47.463
CJ: Yeah.

00:19:47.463 --> 00:19:50.153
And so the way that I engage
with my customers,, I don't

00:19:50.153 --> 00:19:51.743
expect them to know how.

00:19:51.923 --> 00:19:54.993
But I do expect them, what I
should optimize for, right?

00:19:56.193 --> 00:19:59.523
So when we're talking about, Hey, you
want me to build you something, like,

00:19:59.523 --> 00:20:01.789
okay, great, what am I optimizing for?

00:20:01.789 --> 00:20:02.779
Speed of functionality.

00:20:03.166 --> 00:20:07.306
and so once you give me the parameters of
the box, then I can build inside the box.

00:20:07.306 --> 00:20:10.009
So if we're talking about governance,
know, my question is still gonna

00:20:10.009 --> 00:20:11.839
be what are we optimizing for?

00:20:11.839 --> 00:20:15.389
Are we optimizing for speed or are
we optimizing for comprehensiveness?

00:20:16.059 --> 00:20:19.643
And those two are two different
things, But if you optimize for one,

00:20:19.643 --> 00:20:21.293
you should not expect the other.

00:20:21.893 --> 00:20:22.193
Duke: Yep.

00:20:22.553 --> 00:20:26.383
CJ: And that doesn't mean that,
a platform is faster or slower.

00:20:27.133 --> 00:20:30.973
It doesn't mean that you can or
can't do one or the other thing.

00:20:30.973 --> 00:20:35.203
It means that you made a choice
to optimize your system for a

00:20:35.203 --> 00:20:40.036
specific outcome, and because of
that choice, you got your outcome,

00:20:40.036 --> 00:20:41.746
but you had to sacrifice another.

00:20:42.054 --> 00:20:44.574
Duke: And man, what about
all the other stuff that is.

00:20:44.616 --> 00:20:49.363
Work that's got nothing to do with
what the customer requested, but makes

00:20:49.363 --> 00:20:51.913
the whole system faster at scale.

00:20:52.183 --> 00:20:55.213
one of the last custom apps I
built was just a custom task

00:20:55.213 --> 00:20:57.073
type for medical training teams.

00:20:57.103 --> 00:21:00.703
So this team would interface with
doctors and technology, right?

00:21:00.703 --> 00:21:05.953
So a doctor was like, how come I can't
get such and such vitals sent to my text?

00:21:05.953 --> 00:21:06.823
Or, you know what I mean?

00:21:06.823 --> 00:21:09.823
It's just like this SWAT team
would parachute in and they would

00:21:09.823 --> 00:21:13.993
teach doctors about use of all
the various hospital technologies.

00:21:14.723 --> 00:21:18.053
To the stakeholder, it's just like, man,
can't I just get my own custom task type?

00:21:18.088 --> 00:21:22.078
So I can track the work my team does,
and I just need these couple fields

00:21:22.078 --> 00:21:23.968
and this front end on the catalog.

00:21:23.968 --> 00:21:26.008
Like why can't I just
have that super simple?

00:21:26.218 --> 00:21:30.138
And it's like, yep to you it's a
small amount of work because it's just

00:21:30.138 --> 00:21:35.135
a table, a form, a list, a report,
, maybe a notification or two, right?

00:21:35.615 --> 00:21:38.405
To me, I also have to do documentation.

00:21:38.615 --> 00:21:42.935
Because like, I'm gonna leave tomorrow
and I don't know if any other teams

00:21:42.935 --> 00:21:48.315
know , why this app manifested
or that it's there, you know?

00:21:49.335 --> 00:21:53.635
So we got documentation maybe it
should have a TF tests behind it too,

00:21:53.818 --> 00:21:56.248
because they're probably gonna wanna
change it every once in a while.

00:21:56.278 --> 00:21:58.738
We gotta make sure it still works good.

00:21:58.768 --> 00:21:59.158
Right?

00:21:59.713 --> 00:22:00.103
CJ: Yep.

00:22:00.550 --> 00:22:02.920
Duke: do we want to instant
scan it before we go?

00:22:03.205 --> 00:22:03.495
CJ: Yeah,

00:22:03.750 --> 00:22:06.720
Duke: It feels bureaucratic,
but there's essential build.

00:22:06.720 --> 00:22:09.960
I'd even call it like the right
build, build it the right way, means

00:22:09.960 --> 00:22:11.620
that certain things have to happen.

00:22:12.013 --> 00:22:13.213
CJ: Well, and that's the thing, right?

00:22:13.213 --> 00:22:15.650
And when you're immature, you don't
always build it the right way.

00:22:15.650 --> 00:22:17.390
And that's why things are
fast at the beginning.

00:22:18.395 --> 00:22:20.075
Duke: Yeah, like I just bought a house.

00:22:20.105 --> 00:22:23.408
It's an awesome house and we
love a lot of things about it.

00:22:23.438 --> 00:22:23.768
Do you know what?

00:22:23.768 --> 00:22:26.918
We didn't love water
infiltration in the basement.

00:22:27.788 --> 00:22:29.483
CJ: Oh, Oh, that's the worst,

00:22:29.483 --> 00:22:29.933
duke.

00:22:29.978 --> 00:22:34.305
Duke: And now I'm spending $30,000
to get the basement waterproofed.

00:22:34.540 --> 00:22:38.560
killer waterproofed and it's a
metaphor for how our tools are built.

00:22:38.560 --> 00:22:42.460
If you don't build it the right
way, A heavier way sometimes.

00:22:42.460 --> 00:22:43.060
Yes.

00:22:43.990 --> 00:22:46.780
Then somebody pays the
piper down the line.

00:22:46.780 --> 00:22:46.840
I.

00:22:47.245 --> 00:22:49.675
CJ: Water, um, floods and
somebody's gotta pay for it.

00:22:49.675 --> 00:22:50.275
Absolutely.

00:22:50.575 --> 00:22:52.495
And that's because somebody cut a corner.

00:22:52.785 --> 00:22:53.715
Somebody didn't do it.

00:22:53.775 --> 00:22:57.345
Do something correctly and look There's
gonna be, a lot of folks are gonna

00:22:57.345 --> 00:22:58.515
say, well, it's a time and a place.

00:22:58.515 --> 00:22:58.845
Right?

00:22:59.145 --> 00:22:59.565
Sure.

00:22:59.565 --> 00:23:01.245
There absolutely is a time and a place.

00:23:01.425 --> 00:23:02.715
that is the whole point.

00:23:03.343 --> 00:23:05.386
the paradox of all of this, right?

00:23:05.386 --> 00:23:10.336
The whole point of discussing in paradox
is that there is a time and a place and

00:23:10.336 --> 00:23:12.316
there's a sacrifice and offset, right?

00:23:12.316 --> 00:23:13.396
Like a trade off.

00:23:13.696 --> 00:23:17.626
All of those things exist and you have
to have that conversation because if

00:23:17.626 --> 00:23:18.976
you don't have that conversation, I.

00:23:19.306 --> 00:23:20.896
Right, like it gets had for you.

00:23:21.076 --> 00:23:23.796
I always tell people, sometimes
you can't avoid a choice.

00:23:23.976 --> 00:23:28.206
The only thing you end up with is
whether or not you actively made

00:23:28.266 --> 00:23:31.476
a choice or you passively allow
the choice to be made for you,

00:23:31.741 --> 00:23:32.521
Duke: Ooh, I like that.

00:23:33.121 --> 00:23:35.191
Passively allowed a
choice to be made for you.

00:23:35.570 --> 00:23:35.870
CJ: Right.

00:23:35.920 --> 00:23:39.380
Then, then you're giving up your
agency, so you don't have any, decision

00:23:39.380 --> 00:23:40.880
in what the outcome's gonna be.

00:23:41.100 --> 00:23:45.320
So, when you are in a situation and,
there's a choice presented, do we want

00:23:45.320 --> 00:23:47.090
it fast or do we want it comprehensive?

00:23:47.210 --> 00:23:47.990
The answer is not.

00:23:47.990 --> 00:23:48.470
No.

00:23:52.790 --> 00:23:55.220
You know, the one of those is the answer.

00:23:55.520 --> 00:23:55.910
Right?

00:23:55.910 --> 00:24:01.246
You have to pick and what I've just seen
is that, a lot of folks on the platform.

00:24:01.861 --> 00:24:07.501
Either aren't told that they need to
pick or try to not make that decision.

00:24:07.891 --> 00:24:13.561
And where they ended up with is a, is
a platform that, you know, maybe it

00:24:13.561 --> 00:24:16.711
was slow and now they don't know why
it's slow or they didn't want it slow.

00:24:17.011 --> 00:24:17.341
Right.

00:24:17.341 --> 00:24:19.441
But it's like, well, you didn't ask.

00:24:19.441 --> 00:24:20.851
And so we built a lot of governance.

00:24:20.851 --> 00:24:21.541
You're a big company.

00:24:21.541 --> 00:24:23.341
It's like, yeah, but we
like to move quickly.

00:24:23.491 --> 00:24:24.481
Nobody told us.

00:24:24.871 --> 00:24:25.321
Right.

00:24:25.501 --> 00:24:27.131
So you gotta have that conversation.

00:24:27.131 --> 00:24:28.811
You gotta make those decisions otherwise.

00:24:29.111 --> 00:24:29.891
They get made for you.

00:24:30.356 --> 00:24:33.761
Duke: Yeah, and yet I, I think
everybody wants fast until they have

00:24:33.761 --> 00:24:35.321
to deal with the consequences of fast.

00:24:36.356 --> 00:24:36.576
CJ: Yep.

00:24:36.901 --> 00:24:41.221
Duke: You know what,  I hate saying
it that way because we just rewind

00:24:41.371 --> 00:24:45.571
30 some minutes to the start of the
show where I'm like, I'm seeing these

00:24:45.571 --> 00:24:47.641
tools advertise themselves as well.

00:24:47.641 --> 00:24:51.091
ServiceNow takes so long to get even
the simplest things done, and we go

00:24:51.091 --> 00:24:53.231
fast and I'm like, first of all, no.

00:24:53.231 --> 00:24:56.801
ServiceNow can still probably get it
done as fast or faster than you, right?

00:24:57.646 --> 00:24:57.996
CJ: Right.

00:24:58.331 --> 00:25:01.601
Duke: It's just that we're not
saying everything should go slow.

00:25:01.631 --> 00:25:04.661
I'm saying everything should go
as fast as theoretically possible.

00:25:04.661 --> 00:25:08.681
Back down to that, like
the fastest, safe speed.

00:25:09.088 --> 00:25:10.798
CJ: or you have to make
that decision, right?

00:25:10.798 --> 00:25:12.898
You gotta make the decision that
you're gonna be bleeding edge.

00:25:13.078 --> 00:25:14.278
You're not gonna have governance.

00:25:14.278 --> 00:25:16.971
It's just gonna go in, make the, change
as soon as somebody asks for you.

00:25:16.971 --> 00:25:19.521
But you also gotta know that there
are repercussions for that, right?

00:25:19.521 --> 00:25:23.541
The rep repercussions to, to that blaze
of speed is gonna be stability, right?

00:25:23.541 --> 00:25:26.791
It's gonna be tech debt, ? It's
going to be an instance that in

00:25:26.791 --> 00:25:28.441
three years you might wanna rebuild.

00:25:28.973 --> 00:25:29.303
Duke: All right.

00:25:29.303 --> 00:25:31.943
Just got your message about
I have to wrap up in five.

00:25:32.273 --> 00:25:34.763
I think maybe we take the last five
minutes and just, I'll just do a

00:25:34.763 --> 00:25:36.773
quick sum up of what we talked about.

00:25:36.938 --> 00:25:37.028
Fair.

00:25:37.468 --> 00:25:38.093
CJ: Yeah, yeah.

00:25:38.093 --> 00:25:38.303
No.

00:25:38.303 --> 00:25:38.483
Yeah.

00:25:38.483 --> 00:25:38.903
Let's do it.

00:25:39.346 --> 00:25:41.206
Duke: We want everybody to be super clear.

00:25:41.256 --> 00:25:44.316
This isn't a, conversation
about is ServiceNow slow?

00:25:44.586 --> 00:25:48.696
Like I said, for those of you who know
how to build on ServiceNow, it's easy

00:25:48.696 --> 00:25:53.796
to understand how fast ServiceNow is
and we can see through these marketing

00:25:53.796 --> 00:25:58.386
campaigns of like, oh, ServiceNow
mechanically is super slow, just not true.

00:25:58.596 --> 00:26:02.556
Okay, so what we're trying to do
in this episode is make us look at.

00:26:02.916 --> 00:26:09.076
What could possibly build the perception
that ServiceNow is slow to build?

00:26:09.436 --> 00:26:14.566
Alright, and what we covered was
the idea of good, slow and bad.

00:26:14.566 --> 00:26:14.986
Slow.

00:26:15.106 --> 00:26:15.466
Good.

00:26:15.466 --> 00:26:20.206
Slow is the amount of governance
to make sure you are building

00:26:20.233 --> 00:26:22.843
the right things correctly.

00:26:24.043 --> 00:26:24.463
Bad.

00:26:24.463 --> 00:26:27.433
Slow is not having the governance.

00:26:27.493 --> 00:26:33.116
So you've built a ton of stuff badly
that makes subsequent build even

00:26:33.116 --> 00:26:34.946
slower, catastrophically, slower.

00:26:34.946 --> 00:26:36.836
I think we can boil a
whole episode down to that.

00:26:36.866 --> 00:26:37.196
Right.

00:26:37.721 --> 00:26:38.231
CJ: Yeah.

00:26:38.231 --> 00:26:38.741
Yeah, duke.

00:26:38.741 --> 00:26:40.121
I think that's a great summation.

00:26:40.256 --> 00:26:43.796
Duke: Alright folks, thanks for joining
us and we will see you on the next one.

00:26:43.978 --> 00:26:44.638
CJ: Peace