I'm Travis Bader, and this is The
Silvercore Podcast.
Join me as I discuss matters related to
hunting, fishing, and outdoor pursuits with the
people in businesses that comprise the community.
If you're a new to Silvercore, be sure to
check out our website, www.Silvercore.ca we can
learn more about courses, services and products
that we offer as well as how you can join The
Silvercore Club, which includes 10 million
in north America wide liability insurance, to
ensure you are properly covered during your
outdoor adventures.
Today, I'm joined by my friend and past
Silvercore podcast guest April Vokey.
April is a world renowned angler, entrepreneur,
and all around cool person who traces her
humble beginnings to my hometown of Surrey,
British Columbia.
April, thanks again for coming on this
Silvercore Podcast.
Thanks for having me.
Um, I love talking, or speaking with
you and Tiff.
Well, you know, I've, I've been looking forward
to getting together with you for some time
now, but with you being stuck down under, or
as the media would have me believe in the
upside down what we're going to have to settle
for a virtual meetup.
It's a, it seems like things are getting a
little crazy down under.
Uh huh.
Yeah, we can talk about that to.
We can nav, try to balance that
one carefully.
Yes.
So, you know, with, with Silvercore partnering
with you to offer Anchored Outdoors
courses, I thought it'd be good to give
my audience a chance to get to know you better,
but you know, in all likelihood you've been on
60 Minutes, you've been on the Steve Harvey Show.
You've been a MeatEater, Shorelines,
and many others.
And you only have what?
125,000 followers on Instagram.
They probably already know you.
Um, Nope.
Nope, definitely not everyone knows me.
Thank goodness.
Yeah.
Well, we were spit balling back and forth,
but a few different ideas of, um, uh, of
a, value that we can bring to the listeners.
And I, and I'm looking at how many podcasts
are you in now?
You're like 158 is it?
No more than that.
85?
In eight, yeah, it's almost 200 now.
Holy crow.
What happened?
So most of that's you interviewing other
people, mind you you've been on other people's
podcasts and people get to interview you and
you probably talk about the same stories and a
lot of the same things coming up and which fly
rods the best, how'd you get into fishing.
Yes.
And I thought I'd take a little bit different
approach to this.
Um, so I said, tell you what, I got
five questions.
You come up with five questions.
I don't know what these questions are gonna be.
Uh, from you, you don't know what the questions
are going to be from me, but the caveat is, as
we both kind of have to answer them, if we're
coming up with it.
So we really can't sink the other person.
Uh, so I got a question for you.
All right.
Hit me with it.
Okay.
Henry David Thoreau has a, has a quote and
he says "many men go fishing all of their
lives without knowing that it was not fish
that they were after."
Have you heard that mode before?
Yes.
Okay.
April, what are you after?
Adventure.
Yes?
Yeah, that was a question that plagued me for
probably 10 years.
Honestly, I'd say my late twenties and early
thirties, I had this transition in life, as
many of us do as we grow up and change and evolve.
And I definitely was at, at, I had a moment
where I didn't know why I was doing it
anymore, or, you know, the age old question of
what makes you happy.
I was like, well, what, what does make me happy?
And I kept coming back to excitement.
Being excited makes me happy.
Well, what excites me?
Adventure is what excites me and therefore
makes me happy.
So for me, I'm always in search of the next
adventure and the next thing that's going
to tickle my fancy.
So how do you define adventure?
Well, it depends on the season of my life.
So now that I'm a mom, my adventure is probably
a little more mild because I can't die,
which is always, um, an interesting revelation
and actually one that's really starting to
become a very real part of my new reality.
I mean, my husband's 50, I'm 38, well, he's 49.
I'm 38.
And if we, you know, with all of this stuff
that's happening in the world right now, you
just never know what's going, what could happen.
And w and we have a child and I have, I can't
go on an adventure and just die anymore, which
sounds really silly.
But when you're younger, there's something very
free knowing that you can go out and live your best
life and not come home.
And that you're okay with that, but I can
no longer, I no longer have the freedom to
be okay with that.
That would make me selfish.
So I'm coming to terms with that recently.
So my adventures are a lot more mild.
You know, that, that was one thing that I found.
Nothing makes you realize your own mortality,
like having kids.
That's right.
It's weird, but man, the number of times I've
gone out to do something and that little nagging
voice in the back of my head is, will you
be okay afterwards?
Will your kids remember you as you were?
Will they be able to remember you into the
future because you've been around for them.
And it stopped me from doing a number of
things that previously I wouldn't even have
thought twice about.
Right.
That's what I'm talking about.
And the other things that it does to your brain.
I mean, remember when you and Tiffany were up
at my place in Smithers?
Yep.
And I'd said to you, listen, I have this
suspicion, I've got this new black bear
on my property, the old black bears gone.
I've got this new guy and I don't feel great
about him, I fired some shots over him.
He's too gutsy.
He's been watching Adelaide.
He sits behind the cabin.
I'm not scaring him, I don't feel great
about this bear.
Remember that conversation?
I sure do.
So it's been, what, two years now?
Mhmm.
Well, wouldn't, you know, it, he is out
there killing sheep and the CO's have put a
trap, they're trying to get him on the river,
but he lives behind my cabin on the property.
So there was a time when I would never kill a
bear, you know, never.
And now I've got two buddies and I've drawn
them out a map of this is the, this is the bed
one, this is bed two.
This is what, what his pattern is.
All of that fun stuff.
So it changes everything.
It changes my it's, it's changed my, my morals,
it's changed my planning.
It's changed my adventure.
It's just, it changes everything.
Yeah.
And I guess there's sort of a balance there as
well, because, well, I guess you bring up
two things which are kind of interesting.
Number one is, trust your gut.
It really drives you to trust your gut.
It's amazing how many times people will
come up and they'll say, you know, I had
a gut feeling about ABC, whatever it was.
I thought that person was bad.
I thought that animal may have done
something, but people don't act off of it.
I found the older you get, the less you start
caring about what other people might think
about your actions.
And if you trust that gut, all of those
indicators that you have at that moment
that are giving you that gut feeling, those are
the things that people look back on and say, I
should have known because A, B and C, but the
process of rationalizing that through your
logical brain.
I don't know.
I think, I think it's a step, uh, being a parent,
that you just stop caring and you don't have to
rationalize it anymore.
It's in the gut feeling and you
just work with it.
But do you know, two, two things on that.
One, I have a buddy who's a detective in
America and he told me years ago, one of the
number one things that he sees with homicide
cases that could have been prevented is that
the woman verse, we were speaking specifically on
women's safety or safety on women in the world.
And he was saying that most of the time, the
woman knows that she's entering a situation that
she should not be in.
Her gut is screaming for her to walk away, run,
call for help, anything.
And because of what she's, she's worried
about what society will think of her or
being rude or whatever it is, the stigma
she's worried about portraying, she ignores
that and therefore, um, often ends up in harm.
But the second part of this is, being a
relatively newer hunter, I have really opened
my eyes in watching animal behaviour.
Especially during certain times of the year.
I mean, I know it's not fair to, to speak
entirely during the rut because males are
an entirely different beast during the rut,
but I hunt year round, cause I'm not just
looking, um, you know, I don't just wait for
the two week, awesome.
Excuse me, time in the rut.
Hunting is a year round thing.
You're constantly tracking, figuring out
patterns, learning new property, all this stuff.
And so I've noticed consistently that
the females seem to be more in tune with
their instincts than the males do, whether
it's goats, deer.
Um, I haven't necessarily found birds
maybe, maybe birds.
I'm not a huge bird hunter, but I have
noticed specifically around here with
goats and with deer that the females tend
to know whats up.
They have this weird spidey sense.
And so for me, it's like, well, I mean,
maybe I'm not, maybe I I'm reading it wrong,
but I know I get busted by females a lot faster
than I'm busted by bucks.
And it just makes me question as humans,
do we, as females also have some sort of peaked
spidey sense or instinct when it comes to danger?
You know, I think some were back in our
little reptilian brain.
We male, female, we all have it, but the male ego
will quite often get in the way of, uh,accepting
what you're feeling.
They call it women's intuition or guys will
have gut feelings.
And In order for a man to have a gut feeling, more
often than not, the man will sit here and try and
rationalize it, or maybe there'll be driven by
other things, hormones or something else that kind
of override what that gut feeling might be.
It's interesting that you notice that in
wildlife as well.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, I would say it's mostly, in my
situation, it's mostly hormones where I have
found that because I'm just, I'm thinking
now, you know, when I am hunting and I, I,
I had to batch up like a bachelor property at
buck property and they are pretty onto me.
I will say they are pretty onto me when
they're all together.
But during the rut especially, is when
you see that the males are obviously occupied,
they're going through all these chemical
changes that's happening within their bodies.
But the females you ever noticed, the way
that they sit, even, you know, they've got someone
on the lookout and.
Right.
You know, I even am at the point now where,
when I'm trying to sneak up on, you know,
a number of deer, I try to tell myself, okay,
don't let that don't have any intention.
Don't, don't be thinking that you're going to
kill something right now, because I just
don't know how deep that instinct goes.
Can they sense that they're
being preyed upon?
I mean, I don't know.
There's a lot of people who think you do.
I remember one guy was out hunting moose,
and he says, uh, he was a European fellow.
He's like, you gotta be thinking happy
thoughts when he walks through the bush.
Don't think I'm a hunter, I'm out here, I'm going
to harvest something.
You got to think I'm happy, I'm just
enjoying the bush.
He was a very successful hunter, so there might
be something to it.
Yeah.
I don't know, but we are animals and
that does, that's the key takeaway here.
You know, we are animals at the end of the day.
And I think that we just shouldn't be
ignoring that gut.
How do we get onto that?
I don't know, but, uh, I'm okay
yapping about that.
Um, so I think that was all from
the Thoreau quote.
What drives you?
And you talked about taking less risks
as you get older.
Have you reached a point yet where you looked
and say, I want to start taking some more risks.
Oh yeah.
Like the day after I gave birth.
Yeah.
I never changed.
I think that's the thing.
That's the big thing is, you know, everyone
says, oh, you're going to change.
And for, yeah.
I mean, I was the person saying I'll never change.
And I guess we've just established that I have
changed, but not me, not April the person, I still
am just as wild as I was.
I'm just not allowed to be as wild as I was.
I'd just have to be more responsible,
you know, but.
A little bit better containment.
Yeah.
But yeah, no, I I'm at the point now
where I'm ready to get wild and crazy again.
Uh, but I'm stuck.
I can't go anywhere.
And it sucks because we were all aligned
to do all these wild, crazy adventures.
And we had started that again when lockdown
had lifted and now we're back in jail.
Well, you've almost died a few times.
I'm, being rafting down the river when your raft
overturned and it's, course thatcar accident
you were in was, uh, was, you're pretty
lucky to walk away from.
Big time.
Did you have other experiences like that?
Oh, I think the usual, you know, I've
had a lot of bear encounters when I used
to guide on the Dean.
We were in Tweedsmur.
So surrounded by grizzly bears, I've been charged.
Um, I can't think of anything that's
too obvious.
You know, I haven't had, it's not like I've
wrestled a Cougar or anything, or any of the
stories that some of your guests have done,
but you know, it's just part of the, it's just
part of the experience.
If you're going to be out in the bush, it's, that's
just part of the gamble.
Yeah.
You know, I've before having kids, I said,
tell you what we've made the decision gonna have
kids, my life is on hold.
I'm going to live 100% for them.
Now that my kids are getting a little bit
older, I'm looking and saying maybe that
wasn't entirely the right decision, because
there's definitely a lot in yourself that you
need to feed so you can provide the best possible
you to your kids.
And so we find ourselves going out on more and
more adventures and as they get older, they're
now accompanying you on those adventures.
I must be a horribly selfish human because
I never thought that.
And I, and I will admit if we're being
totally honest.
And because we're friends, I went through
a bit of guilt because I kept waiting for
that thing to happen.
You never, I kept saying you're going to change.
So I kept waiting for this change to happen.
And I kept waiting to put her life first
and it would be all about her and it
just never happened.
And then I realized it's because I had a child
too, because I finally felt like I was ready
as a woman to give a person on this planet,
the best that I'd had.
I mean, I've been working for 40 years to
be the best self, you know, my, my best self.
I can't, if I lost all that and just
totally abandoned all of these years of work
and was overshadowed in this, you know,
societal stigma of what motherhood should be.
Then I knew I was going to actually deprive my
daughter of all of the things that I'd worked
so hard to pass onto her.
So to me, it was almost like I gave birth to this
little by little compadre and yes, I'm responsible
for her and I love her more than anything, but
she's, um, I'm not ready to give up my life yet.
Does that make me a horribly selfish human?
No, I don't think so.
I don't think so.
I think the whole idea of giving up your life
in order to live for the kids is, uh, was
probably a little too far on the end of the
spectrum of my, my iod, ideology is definitely
come on back because you need to have something
that you're continually developing in yourself to
be able to share with the little ones that you're
bringing into this world.
I don't think, I think you're just a little
bit more rational than I was in my approach to,
uh, into all of that.
But you were a young parent, right?
How old were you when you guys?
Good question.
Uh, lets see, uh if I ,2007 had the first one.
So what would that make me?
I don't even know how old I am.
People ask me how old are you?
I don't know.
I was born in 1978 and I do the math.
I think that's 43 now.
Uh, so 43, takeaway 14.
So I would have been yeah, 29.
Yeah.
And what a time.
I don't know if that's young.
But 29 is such an interesting time.
And I don't know if it's the same for
men, but I know myself and my friends, 29,
29 to 34 was huge.
That was a huge pivot.
Uh, just, uh, a big change in our, in
many of our lives.
So, I mean, I don't know.
Maybe there was, maybe it has something to
do with that, may.
There's a lot of reasons, but here's
my question for you.
Now, let me throw this back at you.
Here's one of my five.
If you, looking back now and do it being so
responsible, because when you tell me you're 43,
it makes me it does, it makes me go, oh my gosh.
I mean, you guys have it, you guys are so together.
You and Tiffany are so together.
When I think of people, I really look up to
as entrepreneurial husband, wives, parents.
I honest to goodness, conservationist, I
think of you guys.
I really do.
I'm deeply flattered.
I put on a very good illusion I guess.
But there's only four years between us that
I feel like you're 25 years older than I am.
Looking back now in all of that responsibility
that you've taken on, do you feel like in
your twenties and your thirties say you missed
out on something that you would change now,
if you could go back.
Ooh, that's a good question.
So in some aspects, no.
So when I look back into my younger years, I was
not excelling in school.
It just wasn't the thing for me.
And in fact, I was politely asked
to leave several different schools.
I think I had five different high schools
and went to a couple of different, uh,
elementary schools.
It just wasn't for me.
But I looked at some of my friends who were going
on to post-secondary education and or career
trades training, and they were getting
their life in order at such an early age.
And they were earning and they were, uh,
being able to acquire all the things that
at that age you figure you should have, right.
They've got a vehicle and there they've got a place
that they're getting.
And I, I didn't have that.
I kind of floundered or foundered, whatever
the word is, in school and I got out and I
just, I was all over the board, ADHD kicking in.
I was working several different jobs and, and
trying to build my own.
And finally, I reached a point.
I said, you know what?
I want to retire when I'm 32, I want to be
able to have mortgage paid off, be able to
retire by the age of 32.
How do I do that?
And I started looking at different business
models that I could possibly take on.
And I came to the conclusion that
whatever I do, it's going to require all
of my effort, 110%.
And I'm not going to be able to have the
benefit of a, sort of an education roadmap.
Like some people go to business school
and they know one plus one equals two.
I know the path, they know the formula for
generating a livelihood, but I knew I wouldn't,
I wouldn't thrive in that setting.
And I would once again, be the same
as my previous schooling experiences.
So I really did approach it from a
school of hard knocks and just nose to the
grindstone sort of way.
Um, and I was fortunate enough to be
successful at an early age, more through
pure determination than anything else.
I mean, if I wanted to be able to make X amount of
money at the end of the month, I would find a way
to be able to do that.
Now that might've been, let's say I make a
hundred dollars in one month, but I worked
every single hour of at each day in order
to make that, I can do that, but I would look
back and say, does the ends justify the means?
Like, was it all worth it?
So when I look back, did I miss anything?
In some respects, I started giving up all of
my evenings and all of my weekends, because I
was providing training to people who, when that
was their free time.
So I missed out on some of this stuff on weekends
and evenings, but to be honest, that was never.
That was never something that was a
true driver for me.
Like I worked in nightclubs as a bouncer,
but aside from that, I didn't find joy
or pleasure in going out, partying it up.
And I never really wanted to be the weekend warrior
with everybody else and all the other crowds.
So I, I can't say I missed too much there.
When you talk about a pivotal point in
your thirties, my thirties were a blur.
I mean, I, I spent eight years from about
29 onwards, uh, just in a blur, just trying
madly to keep the business afloat and
keep things running and, and, uh, fighting
different fights.
And just, there was a lot of difficulties and
strains during that time.
So I really don't have much of a thirties when,
when you mentioned that and it sounds weird, but
I feel like I've missed most of that period.
And that was a by-product of being an entrepreneur,
I think, and not necessarily taking
the precautions as an entrepreneur entrepreneur
that's needed in order to protect yourself
from outside parties that may wish to try and
do what you're doing.
And so that, that, from that perspective, I
think it was probably a very necessary
point of my learning process to have that,
but not one I'd ever want to have repeated.
I don't know if that answers the question.
Yeah, it does.
It's it's funny, you know, you have to
invest, everything's an investment, right?
So you're investing the time to be
able to play later.
Right.
So work hard now, play hard later,
all of that stuff.
But I'd be very curious if, because a
lot of things happen emotionally, right?
When you're young and running around and
traveling and just being, especially
in your thirties.
So I'm going to be watching you very closely
for a midlife crisis.
I'm going to see what happens in your fifties.
Somehow.
I can't see a midlife crisis, a friend of mine,
he talked me into, um, he says, you gotta get
your motorcycle license.
And it just so turns out that a school that
I taught out of back in my early twenties,
a fellow there, he's their, their lead
instructor, brilliant instructor, really
great guy runs a school.
Uh, he says Trav, come on in, come on,
you gotta get your motorcycle license.
I think that's the closest to a
midlife crisis.
And of all of that, I've, you know, I enjoy
riding motorcycles, but I got no desire to be
able to drive around in the lower mainland.
Seeing, seeing too many of the adverse side
effects of that one.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
That's that, that is a good one.
How about you would, uh, you've I mean,
like you've worked your butt off.
You have been so passionate towards
every endeavor that you've just jumped
feet first into it.
Do you look back and say, man, I wish I tempered
myself a little bit.
No.
I was always a workaholic.
I mean, from date, from the beginning,
from the first, I was a workaholic before it
was allowed to work.
I mean, I remember taking my babysitting course
when I was a kid and printing out cards and
door to door and I was trying to pick up as
many shifts as possible.
And I would've been, I would've been what 11, I
mean, just a total kid.
Sorry, I'm going to just shut this email down.
And um, and then from there, you know, going
to work in restaurants from the age of 13, I
think it was 13, 15, whenever you're, whenever
you're allowed to work.
And as soon as that happened, I was
working two jobs.
And then, uh, I started my first business at
21 and I've always just, it gets me off.
I love working, but, but I've always played
hard in the day and I've always worked hard at
night and my sacrifice has always been sleep.
So I sacrifice sleep.
And so looking back now, it's hard to regret
sacrificing sleep because all you do is have
a good night's sleep and you forget that
you sacrifice sleep.
Totally.
So it's, I don't feel like I've
given anything up.
Well, what was it that drove you to work?
Was it the money?
I think so, at first.
Yeah.
I think I want to security and stability.
So I, uh, my strategy a friend asked me
this the other day, what's your strategy?
And my strategy has always been that I'm
a long-term player.
So I've always, I mean, I started
investing at 16, right.
I was always looking very, very long
in the future.
I'm always looking way ahead.
And so I think for me, um, you know, I was
driven by being prepared to have all of the
chess pieces in place so that when I was in
my forties, I could relax, which is ironic
because now I probably work harder than ever.
But I think it's because I just love it so much.
And I'm finally on to a business plan that is
really working and I love it and it's satisfying
and it's just, I'm, I've never been so fulfilled
as I am right now.
But, um, I, it was probably about having
security and money so that I could
fish all the time.
Right.
I never wanted to be loaded, but I wanted
to have enough money so that I could do what I
wanted in the daytime.
And that was at the time fish, now more
recently, fish and hunt.
Um, but then, you know, a couple of things
happened in my life and, um, you know,
one day I did actually wake up to some money.
Some things had happened and I woke up to money
in my account and it didn't change anything,
nothing changed.
I didn't feel any better.
I didn't feel any more relieved.
I didn't feel any less stressed out,
like nothing changed.
And that was when I thought, okay, so
why am I doing this?
And, um, part of the problem is my brain goes
a million miles an hour.
I'm like you, right.
My brain just, but it's, it's just constantly,
can't sleep at night.
And that's one of the reasons why I've
always worked at night.
I just cannot sleep at night, I thrive best
off five hours of sleep.
My brain just.
Stop.
Right.
And so, um, I just need to keep it busy
to be totally honest and what better way
to do it than to do it with the business that
you love and you're passionate about, and
that does help support you and does help bring
income to your family.
Um, and like I said, in more recent years
built a community of people that you really
enjoy hanging out with.
I like that.
And you know, even though you said that
money was probably the motivator from a young
age, when you're talking there, it didn't sound
like it was money that was a motivator, but
the proceeds of money, what money will bring
you, and that brings you your hobby, that
brings you the security that brings you.
Time.
Time was, I wanted time.
I wanted to be able to have enough money so
that I could use my time.
So what was it that Rockefeller said, I
think it was a reporter that asked him.
It says, how much is enough?
And he says just $1 more.
Right?
Always more, always want more.
And there's at, there's always this drive within
certain people to want to build more, to create
more, to have more time, whatever it might be.
But at some point this will all end that,
that time will end.
Do you feel like right now, you are dedicating
the appropriate amount of time in your day to
what's really important?
Do you?
Oh are you asking me that right now?
Yeah.
Oh, well, it's a really tricky time right
now because it's, we're in lockdown and
have been for like a year, by the way.
I know.
I mean, yeah, we get, we get like two weeks
here and there, but we are, we are in a
very, very strange time and I'm, I'm starting
to forget what normal felt like to be honest.
And so right now, no, I don't feel like any
of those things are, are happening, but I'm
also quite literally a prisoner in my own home.
I love my home.
What does your lockdown look like?
Oh you can't, you can't leave the house.
So I know the media was making it
seem pretty crazy.
There were helicopters above telling people
to get inside and there are helicopters telling
people to get inside, but right now, as it stands,
it's absolutely asinine.
I mean, I can't meet a friend at
the park with kids.
I can't even.
Wow.
Meet a friend at the park with children.
They're changing it.
So now for vaccinated, we can hang out together
in the park, but, and again, this is a very
slippery slope and probably not the right
platform for this.
And I am certainly not the right person to speak
on this, but it is crazy.
And I've told Charles I will give it, I
understand Canada or BC has got an,
a mandate coming in soon, mid September.
I think it's the 13th.
We've got a, uh, uh, COVID passport that
they've proposed and say it's coming in.
I'm going to very patiently wait and
see what happens.
And I've told Charles that come
November I'm leaving.
But right now, so the reason why we haven't
left is it's illegal for an Australian citizen
to leave the country and has been for almost
two years, by the way.
So.
So Charles can't leave.
He can't leave.
So I can, with Adelaide and we can leave.
But the problem is is that even if we apply
for a permit to come back, because I'm not
a citizen here, I'm a Canadian citizen.
There's no guarantee that we can get back
before 10 months.
And so that's a long time away from picking
my daughter away from her father, which I would
never do to her because for all she knows,
everything's normal.
We've played things very, very, very
normal for her.
Sure.
But 10 months away from her father is not normal.
And then, and then I'd have to do two
weeks quarantine with a three-year-old in
a hotel, which just is also not normal.
So, um, this is a time where I've definitely put
her and my family first.
And, um, and I don't mind cause I stay busy
with work and we, we do live in the country here.
So there's lots to do, but, um, I don't
know how much more of it I can take Travis.
It starts to weigh on your mental.
I mean, there was, there was, it was just on
the news the other day.
There is a remote community of Aboriginal
people who called to say, we can't get food.
And the government, whoever they'd
calledhad said call Uber eats, they're in
the middle of nowhere.
So somebody went out and shot a kangaroo
to feed the community.
And they were told by the government that
that had to stop.
I think w they must've been either selling it
or give at, there was something that broke
the law about wild meat, that it wasn't fit that
wild game meat wasn't fit for human consumption.
So if that doesn't start to drive a person
a little bit mental, I don't know what, what
will, so I'm hanging on, but I probably have about
two months in me before I start to crack I think.
I tell ya, you know, I, I did a podcast a couple
of days ago with a, a fellow super nice guy,
uh, ex British Special Forces, Commando, uh,
intelligence, um, worked as a spy and corporate
spy and a really interesting backstory.
You know, he was talking about his
concern being the way that the information
is being disseminated and how discussion
around, whether it be lockdowns or passports
or COVID in general is not being permitted.
And he says, you know, from a military
intelligence standpoint, there's a lot of things
that are raising his concern because they're
very similar to what countries will do to
third world countries in order to, to,
to feed information or misinformation.
He says, I don't have the answers.
I don't know what the answers are.
I don't think anybody on the internet is going
to have the answers for you, but the fact
that the conversation is so stifled without
somebody being called, uh, an anti-vaxxer
or, um, flat earth or whatever it might be,
he says that's a very, very concerning thing
from his standpoint.
I don't know.
It's um, it is getting a little bit, uh,
disconcerning when I, when I look at
what's going on.
Yep.
And that that's, I just taking it all in right
now, just learning, just watching it all,
learning, trying to keep business afloat, trying
to raise a daughter, trying to stay sane and
just listening to it all.
So it'll be very interesting.
I think the next two months are going
to be very telling.
Why the next few months.
I think that September, middle of September
is going to be a very telling time in Canada.
So I'm curious to see how that unrolls, I
think that from what I've seen anyway, it
looks like cases are ramping up in America.
And I think that that's going to bring about
some policy that is probably going to
upset some people.
And I know that Australia is at its breaking
point right now.
Um, and, and this lockdown is also
set to end in at the end of September.
And so if that doesn't happen and it extends
into October, it's all just going to
be a big mashup.
So I'm just, I think the next realistically is
probably the next month, but I always like to
give myself some padding.
So I'm going to say two months.
Two months, I think you're probably onto
something there.
I think as we take a look at the, uh, the
numbers and the trends that we've seen in the
past, uh, you're going to start seeing in areas
where they, they figure there's no issue or
issues starting to arise.
Yep.
So we'll just see what happens, but, um, but
yeah, the work is keeping and that's one of the
other reasons why I want to continue to work.
I go to work every day on my, on my work.
I have an online company and I really
genuinely love the people I work with.
And I'm a huge proponent and fan
of online learning.
I use it for everything.
I use it.
I, I spent a fortune on online learning
from gardening to taking classes on
cryptocurrency and understanding investing.
I just love investing in online education.
And so I get to go to work everyday with an
amazing community and create online content
to help myself and others really be able
to thrive in certain outdoor scenario's.
So for me right now work, if I didn't have work
right now, I would be going, I think a little
bit out of my mind.
Fair enough.
Well, maybe I'll leave the COVID stuff for a
little bit, but when this one comes out in a few
weeks after it's been recorded here, we'll,
uh, we'll be closer to that a one month,
two month period here.
It'll be interesting to see.
Indeed.
Okay.
What's your next question?
I got it right here.
You're a role model for a lot of people.
You are followed by 125,000 people
on Instagram.
You've got people following you in your
training programs, through social
media, through TV.
Do you see yourself as a role model.
No.
And.
Sorry.
Does it.
Didn't mean to cut you off.
Does it shape how you behave and
present yourself?
Yes and no.
So, um, I don't think that that social
media following really carries any merit
and I have a number of reasons on that.
I mean, I'm sure when people first started
following me on social media, it's because
I was a woman who fished that doesn't
make me, it doesn't make me a role model.
It just makes me a woman who fishes.
Um, you know, more recently I've had a
lot of outdoor parents follow me because
they want to see how to navigate that with
their child outdoors.
Does that make me a role model?
No, I'd say it makes me a pretty like-minded
outdoor parent and it makes us a community.
Uh, now when it comes to being more responsible,
as far as being April Vokey the brand, because
sometimes I've had to, you know, call myself
that because if you're trying to shop yourself
for television or you're trying to shop yourself
for even teaching workshops or speaking
at clubs or, or writing articles, you know, you
are selling yourself that I always knew that
I came with a level of.
Um, contention, I guess some people
are like, maybe I had some controversy
behind me just because I have been in the
spotlight for so long.
I was in the spotlight when I was younger,
doing stupid things and not, not that stupid,
but you know, just being one of the first young
woman on Facebook, as, as a young, we spoke
about this when I was on your show last time.
You know, it's just people, don't always
like you when you're in your early twenties
and I can't blame them.
So, but by moving forward to now, you know, as
a woman who is almost 40 and is beyond just
April Vokey, now I'm Anchored Outdoors.
I have a community to run and a membership to run.
Now I feel a level of responsibility because
now I actually know who my audience is now.
My audience, I have several thousand members
who are my community and my people, and
they're watching me.
And I do feel a responsibility, not as
a role model, but as, as a part of that community
or as the moderator of that community.
Yes.
I do feel a level of responsibility.
Interesting.
And of, have you felt a changed how you act?
Yeah, I'm not as controversial
as I used to be.
I didn't use to stir the pot for, for traffic.
That was never even a thing then.
Um, I, I stirred the pot because for me,
it made people think, and that was why
I stirred the pot.
But that was also before I had a podcast.
And it was before I had a voice.
So I had to get my point across with social media,
which made you want to bash your head against
the wall because people don't pay attention
for longer than eight seconds anyway, or via
articles, which is always hard because there's
always more to the story.
So now that I found a voice though, and I
have a podcast and I have an avenue and a
way to have these long form conversation, it's
allowed me to be a lot less controversial and
a lot less provocative because I now have time
to get my point across.
And I now have time to let all the words come
out in the conversation.
So it has as have I, has it been my audience
and the community that's made me smarten up and be
less of a shitster, no, it's having a platform
to actually have long form conversation.
That's allowed me to settle in to not
always having to stir the pot and just let
the organic long-form.
I keep saying long-form conversation, but
that's because I think that that's
what we're missing.
And I, and I think that that's what we need to
really help navigate through a lot of the
trying times that we're having right now.
I find the desire for long form is
more and more.
You know, when I started my podcast, my very
first podcast I ever truly listened to was
yours at the MeatEater episode down in Seattle.
I think that was, uh, oh geez.
How long?
That was the number of years ago where i, I
had no time or patience for, uh, for podcasts.
I consume most of my information by reading
or through YouTube and with my office being
a 10 minute walk away.
And my studio being a 10 minute drive away and
my home office, who's got time to listen to a
podcast, but I'm finding more and more people
are growing tired of the quick clickbait,
old clickbait that used to work doesn't.
People are seeking, I think they're
seeking emotion.
They're seeking some sort of a, um, an intellectual
or emotional connection to whatever it might be
that they're consuming.
And I find that on a greater and
greater basis.
And I don't know if that's just because
the way that people interact has been so,
um, so changed through basic technology and
texting and, and, and all the rest.
Or if that's a direct relation to being
locked down for so long and people just, they
want to, they want to feel something real.
And I, I, I'm getting so many people
commenting and saying, Travis, you're longer,
the longer you go.
Cause I used to keep these around 40 minutes.
I seem to remember somebody telling me 40
minutes is about the, uh, the timeframe, the
key frame that you want to keep your podcasts.
And I thought, okay, 40 minutes to
an hour thats max.
Now um, I'll just, I'll let them go.
And we'll see where it goes and people seem
to be enjoying that.
Yeah.
And I think that they've always enjoyed it
even before lockdown.
I know my season, I think I'm in season seven and
they've always gone on and on and, you know,
sometimes maybe they drone on, but I really
do believe that it's the one way that we can
really truly get the whole story these days,
because where else are you going to get it?
I mean, I've worked in television.
I assure you that is, that don't even get
me started on that.
But the amount of stuff that hits the editing
floor that you never see, um, you know,
trying to work around commercial breaks
also clickbait, not necessarily to click, but
to keep you tuning in.
So you don't change a channel.
Um, just, I mean, clickbait is sums it up
for so many of these, of these platforms,
whether it's social media, whether it's
a news article that you're reading, whether
it's television, but podcasts are, they seem
to be our last form of this sort of, you
know, unedited, truly authentic conversation.
So, and that brings you back to my initial point.
I've seen a lot of my peers start to feel
like they have to be less provocative in the
way of stirring the pot and getting people all
riled up for clickbait.
I mean, there was a time when I used to,
if I wanted to get people on board for the
conservation, um, project or a conservation focus,
I would try to post a picture of myself.
I've never been like a bikini babe, but I would
try to post a picture of myself that would get
people to look like if you're scrolling, you're
going to look, whether it's to hate me or to
love me, I needed you to stop, but I needed you to
stop because I needed you to read the caption and
then read the comments, which were always
about the conservation.
Right.
But I needed that clickbait to stop you.
I know myself and a lot of peers have stopped
needing to clickbait because we just,
they call me now, the biologist called me.
I've had government call me and say time
to hop on a podcast.
So that is very refreshing that we no
longer have to, you know, stoop to our
hot photos of us being blonde in our twenties.
Cause we know that we can just hop on a podcast and
people will be generally quite receptive to it.
But you're at your place right now because
you've taken that route in the past.
Love it, hate it.
People for it, against it.
Would you change how you got to where you
currently are now?
Or do you think that.
No.
It still is, is a path that, is one that you'd
recommend to others?
Oh, as far as, um, clickbaiting yourself.
Right.
I don't think it's necessary anymore.
I mean, I mean, maybe it is for someone who
doesn't have a platform like this or doesn't have
a podcast, maybe it is.
I think that there are always ways that
you can do it that are still modest and humble.
I was like, I wouldn't, I wouldn't suggest
that you take off your pants and post a
picture of your bum.
Which I see people do, um, or, you know, crazy
twerking moves to get people to stop scrolling.
I think that there are a number of, of wholesome
ways that you can do it.
And I would like to just preface this by saying
what, or go back and say, when I was posting
pictures for clickbait, I mean, what was
considered provocative would be me in a pink
cardigan with a pink hat on with blonde hair.
I wasn't doing anything.
I was just different, looking.
Right.
You know, or I had God forbid back then mascara
on, which was a really big deal back then.
Um, so it would, you know, stop people
because who is she?
Why is she fishing wearing makeup?
It's not a big deal now, but back then it was.
And so, yes.
Um, you know what I would, I change that.
Absolutely not.
That's exactly who I was back then.
It's not like I put all that stuff
on or dyed my hair blonde to go fishing.
I was, as we've discussed before I was caught,
you know, serving, I was a cocktail
server and a casino.
That's just what I look like.
Right.
Um, so no, I wouldn't change any of that.
I, I wouldn't change a thing.
But what would you recommend to other
people at via path that you would take?
Yes.
No, both, depends what it is.
Yeah, okay.
So, you know, if you're, if you're a young, if
you're a young babe, man or woman, right.
And you've got a photo of yourself and you
think then you've got a message that you really
need to get out like now.
And you think that posting that photo, let's
just talk social media.
Cause it's easy.
Sure.
That posting, that photo is going to stop
people right away and somehow drive them to
that petition link or to that, that, that PDF
or whatever it is that you need to get them to.
And it's wholesome enough.
I mean, but it's makes people stop then yes.
But sometimes the best option is to
post a picture of a Steelheads face.
Maybe that's, what's going to
get them to stop.
So read your audience and do what you have to
do to get them to stop within, within reason.
So I, would I suggest people to do what I
did back then, as far as being wholesome,
but choosing a photo that made people stop.
Sure.
Would I suggest you take your clothes
off, uh, and violate your own integrity?
No, definitely not.
Right.
What about you?
Have you been in a situation where, because
listen, all business owners get in a situation
where they need to drive traffic and we go
through all the things in our heads, right?
It's like, okay, if we're not going to
pimp ourselves out, are we going to team
up with an influencer?
Are we going to team up with another brand?
Are we going to try to be controversial?
Are we going to work with this organization?
Are we going to step on the side of politics?
Are we not going to step on this side of politics?
Have you been in a situation yet, where
you felt like you had to drive yourself to
one of those factors to get your point across?
No, I haven't actually had a situation where I
have had to, uh, where I've had to really
try to drive myself in a way that might
be contrary to how I normally would do it.
I have actually found myself in more situations
where I'll stubbornly do the opposite, where
people will ask for certain things to be
able to, uh, in order, certain contracts that
we've come up with and they want to see a, B
and C, I guess, working outside of the TV world.
We, like in the Hollywood world, which I've done
a little bit of work with some people in,
in media, man, the requests can be weird.
The, um, uh, the dynamic can be really
weird and you really, really have to stick
close to your guns.
Uh, if you don't want to compromise
your integrity.
So I haven't found myself in that many situations
at all, where I've had, or I've been asked to do
something, which would be contrary to how it
normally comport myself.
I, I guess maybe it.
Here's a question for you.
Bear attack, you have a podcast
about a bear attack.
Yep.
What image, and this is different because it's
not trying to drive traffic to conservation.
Ahh.
This is driving traffic to sales,
but so what image.
Okay.
Do you use to try to drive traffic to your
bear attack podcast?
That is a good question.
So when we start talking about thumbnails for
the, uh, uh, let's say on, on YouTube, or I did
a, I've done, uh, Colin Dowler attacked by a
bear, put an image up.
It was a picture of me and Colin
and we're standing beside each other on
a bit of an incline.
And, uh, I mean the guy I'm 6'6", 250.
And I mean, I, I put him up on an incline
beside me and I still look like Sasquatch,
right beside him.
I mean, this guy is a smaller fellow.
I think he weigh's 125 pounds and that's
his fightin' weight.
And, um, mind you, the guy fought off
a grizzly bear.
And so I thought this is a great picture,
throw this thing up and it just wasn't getting
the traction I want.
So, you know, what's a picture up right now, a
great big old snarling grizzly bear because
people will look at this and say whoa, look at
that scary grizzly bear.
Maybe I should listen to this.
So yes, I can definitely see where you're going on
that one in the same way that a, I did a podcast
with a friend of mine who did SAS selection,
twice actually.
And he was in the British army and, uh, doing some
really interesting stuff.
And although we talked about everything under
the sun, I knew that people will want to
listen to his story only if they can see
the SAS selection to kind of get them in to
the, uh, to click on it, to get in there.
So, yeah, I can definitely see where
that game is played.
So yeah, so you have, so you have experienced
it to some degree and listen, I've worked with
various news outlets or media outlets where
it kills them at the core to have to focus
on things like bear attacks and other stories
that drive traffic.
They want to be covering other topics that aren't
clickbait, but they are for one reason or
another forced to, you know, by the powers that
be, um, focus on things that will drive traffic.
And therefore up their, their views.
I could see that I, you know, I guess the closest
I've ever been to having people say, I want you
to do ABC, or I want you to say something.
I, I, I do work with different law firms.
I do consulting.
And sometimes some lawyers will turn around
and say, well, would it be fair if you said
AB and they'll try and reframe or rephrase
whatever it is that you are presenting
as a court expert.
And you have to be very, very, uh, attune
to exactly what it is you're saying, and not
allow other people to try and manipulate what
it is that's coming out.
So there's been some that have hired me to do
work for them when, in fact what you're doing
is acting as a subject matter expert for the
courts and not for them.
And so you always just have to keep that in
the back of your head and regardless of how
they want it framed.
And there's been times when I've put together
reports, which are completely contradictory
to what it is that I know their client or
they wanted to get, and they've worked up
and down to try and get something that
at least was usable for their, for their
case or their defense.
And you have to be, you have to be very,
very sure of what your messaging is and just
stick to what your gut is, because once you
are influenced to maybe change or maybe agree,
or maybe it's a grey area and you can see
it from another side, I personally feel that
it'll be easier and easier as you continue
down to perhaps look at things from different
perspectives and be influenced out of it
as you go forward.
So I can see areas within my spectrum of
work, where people have would very much like
me to say one thing and I've had to very
consciously, uh, stick to what I know to be true.
And to borrow from liberal speak, I have
to speak my truth.
Right, that is.
Which one lawyer says, don't say that
because that would imply that there is
more than one truth.
Yeah, yeah, it's true.
Anyways.
So what's your a and I do, and I just want to
make it very, very clear.
I have two very separate mentalities when it comes
to sales for my company and marketing for my
company, versus trying to urgently get people
to a conservation issue.
To me, they're very, very, very
separate things.
Um, because again, I'm always looking at
business as a long-term game, but often with
con with, with co with conservation, even though
it is also long-term most of the time I'm
reached out to you with real urgent matters.
And so I need to get people people's
attention now.
Right.
Yeah.
I like what you say about business being
a long-term game.
I think people who look at it in the short term,
and I know some people like that, I've seen
them make millions.
I've seen them lose millions and I've
seen them do it over and over again.
And, uh, one good friend of mine, he's built so
many businesses and he's made so much money and
he's lost so much money.
Uh, he's finally taken a different approach,
looked at a long-term and man he's built
something that here in Canada is worth millions.
Oh good.
And it was only because he, he finally took the,
uh, the approach of, look at it as a long journey.
And I mean, even in what you're building, in
your training and your, your members and your
community that you're building, I think you're
like me and perhaps the desire and the impatient
ness, can speed up.
And you're like, I want all of this now I want to
have, I want to be able to provide the absolute
best for the community and have everything that
they need right now.
But that process of growing and building
is what's going to make the community strong and
it's going to be what builds massive value
later on down the road.
So you can look at retiring or.
And it being authentic.
I mean, authenticity is so important for me when
it comes to business.
And I spoke about this before.
I don't know if I've mentioned it to you,
but prime example of business and clickbait
and driving traffic now.
It would be very easy for me to hire instructors
who've got large social media followings.
But.
Sure.
That would go entirely against my business
model of being authentic and playing,
you know, long-term or, or striving for
longterm, uh, results.
And, and, and I believe that authenticity
and long-term go hand in hand.
I think that they're one in the same,
in many ways.
And so I choose to hire instructors who are the
best at what they do, not who have the most eyes.
Which isn't necessarily a great sales strategy, but
it certainly is providing the best quality and
the best um, it's the best thing possible for
our students and for our members, because
they are genuinely learning from the best.
You know, I've seen some courses, I've looked
at different online courses that people
have, and there's a lot of sizzle and no steak,
a lot of flash on a buy now look at, and you
can upgrade and you'd get into the course
and you look at it.
You're like, why did I pay for this thing?
Like, it looked really flashy, but what's
the actual value that I'm getting out of it.
And that's where I've just loved what you're
putting together, because you care so
deeply about what the end user is going to
experience out of this.
And you and I we've had conversations about this
back and forth, uh, ad nauseum about the value
that you're bringing to, to the end user and to
the, to the community.
And if there's something that you feel just,
just, wasn't a hundred percent that it just
wasn't really on point you're feeling guilty
and this, this stuff you've never even put
up because of that.
Yeah.
So I think that.
It hurts.
Totally, and I think that often.
It's like money down the drain and you're like,
ah, but it's a learning lesson, you know?
Yeah.
But you know, the long-term money
down the drain, it's not there right?
You put, throw, you, throw it out now and it
eats at the integrity and it eats at what
people feel that they can trust out of a brand.
And so I would much rather throw,
I would run.
For example, we spent, uh, a good chunk
of money with an organization recently
exploring a route that we're going with one
of our endeavors, only for me to say, no.
No, deep down, at a core gut level, this isn't the
right way for us to go.
And two weeks later, they came back with another
group that they're bringing in, which is a
thousand times better.
It's going to be so phenomenal for what
we're doing, even though I was so like pot
committed to this one, being able to say no.
And looking at that as an expensive learning
venture led to in only two weeks period of
them coming back with something that is better,
is so much better.
So I, I, I'm a thousand percent on the same page
as where you are on that.
If you don't have what you feel to be the best
quality productout there.
Only the best food leaves the kitchen right?
Or, you know, you gotta add some seasoning to it.
I read every single review and I listened
to every single bit of feedback that I get.
And then we just build on top of it.
So you felt we were missing that in
that course, what we are adding that
to that course.
I mean, just constantly adding, building,
making it better.
Right.
So that's been a big part of it too, of, of,
of this business, for me having a business that's
community-based and not April Vokey based is that
you have to learn how to take criticism and not,
not in a negative way.
You have to learn how to take criticism
and really see it as, as great feedback.
Um, and, and I think that's.
Yes.
Been my biggest learning lesson over the last
couple of years is I remember I used to get
the, you know, web form inquiry and my stomach
would go upright.
What have I done wrong now?
Or you get a review and what have I
done wrong now?
Right.
Or a cancellation, what have I done wrong now?
But then you go, okay, well, hang
on, they're right.
I'm going to listen and I'm going to make
that better so that I don't have to feel
sick again when I get that web form inquiry.
So just building upon it.
But the only way to do that is you have to have
a quality product and person to begin with.
And so I knew in my gut and in my heart that
I was never going to be able to genuinely
stand behind courses that were led by
people, just because they have a strong
social media backing.
So I've had to focus on instructors who are
genuinely the best.
Some of them don't even have social media.
Some of them, when I say, can you please post
that your course is live?
Are like, where do I do that?
How do I edit this link?
So, you know, it's.
That's hilarious.
It's trying, but at least, at least
it's genuine.
So anyway, that's, that's, we probably
flogged that one, but, um, yeah.
That's where I stand on authenticity
and, and business versus conservation.
And trying to get your point across
urgently fast.
Yeah.
And it's 189 episodes.
I'm looking at it here.
I think you're at 189, almost 190.
Holy moley.
For, for you, for your age, that that's crazy.
Are you, as I look, as I look at that number
of episodes, is there any part of you that
says, man, I got to record another episode
or are you just like, I can't, I love it.
I get, I get to record another episode.
Uhm, yeah, no, I think what it comes down to
is, oh, I've got an edit another episode,
you know, that's different, but recording.
No.
And listen, if I, if I feel like I'm in an
anti-social week, I just don't book any podcasts.
Right.
There, I, I know I need to stick to my schedule.
Uh, they, all the gurus say, make sure
you post the same day at the same time.
I don't want to exhaust myself.
It's not fair to my listener.
Right.
I mean, to my listener.
I want my guests to know I'm genuinely there
to hear their story as so know, I'm not
there yet because the stories that I'm, that
I'm listening to are really, really inspiring.
My podcast has made me a better person,
hands down, every day of the week.
Like there's no, there's no way to grow
an ego when you're podcasting some of
these men and women.
Because you just, you can't help, but look
at yourself after and think, how can I, how
can I be like that?
Or how can I have such a full life or how can
I do what they've done?
You know, they, they really humble
me, big time.
So out of all the podcasts that you've
done, you've talked to so many people.
Is there one person out there that you would love
to have on your podcast, but you haven't yet?
Oh, maybe, maybe.
I don't know.
I think I've had most of the P uh, yes.
I mean, the answer is yes, for sure, there is.
And listen, there are people who don't
fly fish that I like.
I'd love to have Jordan Peterson
on my podcast and.
Tell me about it, yes.
Not for clickbait.
I mean, I would do it without recording.
I just have got so many questions for him.
So there are people outside of fishing.
Um, there is a woman I'd really like to get on,
her name's Diana Rudolf and she's, uh, this
amazing Tarpon angler.
She's very private and she's one of the best.
And I would love to pick her brain about certain
things, fishing and from an industry stance, why
she's chose, chose to go the route she did.
She had a baby later in life, she's
married to someone else in the industry.
All of these things are very interesting
to me, but, but no.
So, so far there's been a lot of people
who I didn't realize that I needed to hear
their story to grow.
I mean, um, I interviewed a man named Ted Jurassic
on the show, um, and you know, he walked
me through life and concentration camps and
you know, we're both in tears in that one.
And Frank Moore, you know, he's in
his nineties and the most happily married
man I've ever met.
And just those two guys and, and there's
a few others I've walked away from those
episodes different.
I've walked away different.
I was not the same again.
And you know, it used to take me having to fly
to Argentina to have the sort of transformation
and to be able to do it in a two-hour segment
of going into their home and sitting with them,
let's say three hours.
Of seeing their lives and walking away three
hours later, different, as a different human.
That's really cool.
What about this whole online podcasting?
Like it, don't like it.
What are your thoughts?
Look, it's.
I like it because I can get more people that I'm
really interested in.
And it's a great way to, to obviously
stay connected and, and meet new people.
But there's nothing quite like walking into John
Geer X home and seeing.
Right.
His house and drinking coffee with them.
And just going into his messy desk area,
you know, hanging out with his wife,
that kind of stuff.
Seeing the deer in his front yard, that there's
nothing quite like that.
And it's, it's the little thing I hate.
I hate, I know the word nuance is used too
much these days, but it's all those little
tiny things, right?
The awkward silence, the comfortable silence of
drinking coffee and not having to say anything.
Maybe we have lunch.
All those little things to me are
the, I mean, that's where the magic is.
So I think that we get the job done,
but I don't know if it's quite the same.
You know, I've, I've had some people who
were eager to come on as guests on The Silvercore
Podcast, but they said only if it's in person,
so I'm waiting for borders to open up so I
can start traveling to a few different locations.
But they say a hundred percent, the only
way I'll do it as if it's in person.
They say, I don't feel like I can open up and
talk to somebody over a camera or over the
internet, which I can totally appreciate.
I think that's a learned skill.
And I think it's, it's difficult to
get a temperature check on the person
and see where they're at when, when it's
through a screen here.
But I thousand percent agree it sure
makes life easier.
I mean, you don't have to get, leave the house
and you can have, you can have that Argentinian
podcast, right.
That's right.
Exactly.
There's an energy when you're in the room.
And it floats over all of you, right?
It's like this pixie dust and it just
does something.
Yes.
It transfers back and forth.
And unfortunately it just doesn't seem to transmit
through the screen quite as well, but.
Not in the same way.
Yep.
So, you know, swinging, swinging it
back around at you.
What about you?
Who would you have on.
You know what?
I met the guy once I thought he was a
pretty cool individual, the chances of them
ever coming on the podcast, like slim to
none, but Bear Grylls.
I figured Bear Grylls would be a cool guy to
have on the podcast.
The guy has the Guinness Book of World Records
for a youngest Brit to summit Everest.
He crossed the Atlantic ocean in a rigid
inflatable boat from a, I think it was from Nova
Scotia over to Ireland in a, like a little,
little rigid inflatable boat with, I think it
was a three man crew.
I think he took a paraglide over top of
Everest, uh, longest indoor skydive, like the
guy's a mental fortitude and positivity is crazy.
And I would love to be able to chat
with him further in a podcast scenario.
I think that.
Bear are you.
That would be fun.
Listening?
Bear, where you?
Come on Bear.
You know what he, you, you you'd be surprised.
And that is the great thing about this digital
world now is I'm, I am finding a lot of
people are agreeing to do it because it is
very simple for them to just hop online.
So it's worth reaching out.
What would you do if you were disappointed?
What would you do if halfway through
the interview?
And I've been there, halfway through the
interview, you realize, uh oh, this guy isn't
what I thought he was.
Do you, as an interviewer, take that
conversation down that road and start asking
some tough questions or do you just play along
with the bop and the happy-go-lucky facade?
What do you do as an interview?
Where, where do you draw the line on your,
um, on your integrity as far as, uh, being
somebody in journalism or reporting interviewing?
So in my podcasts that I do, I've always
encouraged a two-way dialogue, but it always
tends to be more often me asking questions and
them answering questions.
And some people can take those questions
and they'll build a story and they'll
tell all about it and they're super engaging.
And some people will have the back and forth, but
more often than not the people that are coming
on have never really been in a situation like this.
And quite obviously there'll be some nerves
and these things that you have to overcome.
So, um, I'm, I feel like I'm still finding
my voice within The Silvercore Podcast.
I specifically called it The Silvercore
Podcast because I wanted to be able to
talk about anything.
It's not Silvercore firearms, it's
not outdoors.
It's not, I wanted to be able to talk
about whatever it is.
My ADHD mind kind of fancied at the moment.
Cause like you there's, there's so much
more to my interest level than just that
one singular thing.
Um, so when I first started doing these
podcasts, my major thrust was, I want to make sure
that people come on here and there they've got a
platform where they can share their positivity.
I want to find positive people who have
extraordinary experiences and be able to share
that in a positive way.
And sometimes I would navigate the conversation
in such a way when they were pitfalls.
So they wouldn't fall down those pitfalls.
I am learning to shut my mouth a little
bit as hard as it is.
I'm learning to shut my mouth.
And if they want to talk about some
of these pitfalls or these areas that
might be contentious, to do so, because
that's what a true conversation truly is.
It's not one person trying to guide them
through the questions and through things.
If they want to bring something up and
talk about it and throw it back at me,
I am providing them that opportunity.
But that's a learned thing when, when I
first started, no, I, I definitely help
people kind of avoid certain things.
Would I push them down that rabbit hole further?
Um, I might ask questions about it if
they open the door.
If it's something they're truly
uncomfortable about.
No, I want to be able to showcase the
best possible them.
And I want other people to know when they come
in that the best possible version of them will
also be showcased.
Yeah.
I think if that answers.
It does.
Yeah.
It's a big difference between the gotcha
interviews, which I actually can't stand
and, and the genuine two-way conversation,
you know, it's a tricky one to navigate.
It's a balancing act for sure, because you want
to lead them through.
Um, but you, you also don't want
to censor them.
Right.
So, so that's what, it's tough to navigate
that, but no, I think you do a great job.
But yeah, sometimes, and it's not
necessarily a pitfall.
I mean, sometimes these awkward subjects, they're
there to discuss them.
I've been there.
I've been on a show where I, I def I wanted to talk
about something awkward and we did discuss it
and then he cut the whole thing out of the podcast.
But I was there.
Now I want to know what that is.
I was there too.
It doesn't matter now this 15 years ago, but,
or 10, 15 years ago.
Yeah.
Um, and looking back now, maybe he did save
me a bit, but it was, it was actually, no,
he wouldn't have now.
Nowadays, with us being honest about
some of the things that we've seen in the
industry and in me too.
Um, and I, you know, this is a long time ago.
I shouldn't have been censored.
I should have been able to have said what I
said without it being cut out, I taught I was
there to talk about it.
Hmm.
Yeah.
So, you know, so sometimes you have to
let your guests take that fall because it's
not a fall, they're that's, they're there
to talk about it.
Has anyone ever done a podcast with you?
And then they turn around and said, man,
I wish, I wish I didn't say certain things.
I didn't want to have certain things out there.
Yes.
All the time.
But I say before I press it, before I press
record, I say, this is , don't come to me after to
ask me to edit anything out, tell me during the
recording to take it out.
And so, no, I haven't had someone come, come to me
after they'll they will ask me during recording,
hey, that's off record.
Can you take that out?
And yes, absolutely, I just take it right out.
I've had episodes where I've cut out a whole
hour because we'll end up, you know, going
down this road of talking about their
relationship and how it ruined their lives.
And it gets very emotional and it's not
necessary to be aired to the world so that
stuff just comes out.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
I can see that.
Yeah.
I do a similar thing.
I say, once it's gone live and it's going out
there, it's out there.
So anytime before that, let me know.
Uh, but usually I've only, we've got one with
a government organization that I'll be doing
shortly and, and they've asked for full review
after it's done, which
. And it'll be all scripted anyway, they don't even
let you ask the question.
We need you to submit your questions first.
Then we need to know exactly how we're going
to script our response.
It's there, the government interviews
are the worst.
I actually won't take them anymore.
I won't take them.
Really?
Nope.
If you're going to, if you're going to come
on my show and air your politics and all of your
total bullshit, you have to be retired or let me
sway the conversation as it's going to go
because they, they, they want to script
and control the whole conversation down their
own narrative and no.
Good luck.
Good luck with that.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Well, I've got them to agree with.
So I, I looked at, I said, here's the general
gist of the questions.
I said, listen to the previous podcast.
I'm not here to play gotcha games.
I'm not here to, here's what the intention is.
I said, but if you want to have engagement
and you want people to listen to what you have
coming out, you're going to have to be genuine.
And that's going to be, if that's going
to require not all the questions ahead of time,
because I've done that.
I've I had one group before and I provided
all of the questions.
That person came on, great guy, a really
talented individual, really knowledgeable,
but very nervous.
And they wanted to know what all the
questions were.
And we provided basically a whole list of exactly
what I'm looking to do.
That podcast started and ended in under
15 minutes, because they said, they had
all the answers and there was no, there
was no conversation.
So he came back afterwards and said,
how about a story about A, B and C?
Oh, I could tell that.
Or how about a personal experience about this?
Oh, I guess I could expand on that.
Probably one of the most, uh, time-intensive
editing processes to try and seamlessly
weave all that back in, into things.
But we're able to do that showcase in a
great light and it taught me, I am the
taught me a few things.
Don't talk to the person too much before you
get into a podcast, because all the good
stuff is talked about before and afterwards.
Never, never, that's like rule number one,
don't ask any questions.
Even if you look super rude while you're
sitting there before you press record.
Totally.
I don't provide them with all of the questions
and information ahead of time, because your
response will come back to scripted.
Yeah.
One that I think out, I I've tried a couple
of times, which is I'm just going to
keep things recording.
We're wrapped up, we're done, but I'm going
to keep the re uh, the recording process go.
And we can just kind of debrief on a few
different things.
And it's funny, I've had some podcasts that
are almost entirely the after conversation.
Do they know they're on record, do
they know they're.
Yes.
On record?
Okay.
Yes.
Oh no, no.
A hundred percent.
I said, I'm just going to, this is a chance for
us to be able to relax.
Talk about a few different things,
regroup over stuff.
It's still recorded.
Maybe we'll put this as a, as a interim or use
it if there's little sound bites that come
out of here that we can use on social media.
Great.
And if we don't like it, you just let me
know and we can just, we can wipe that part
after, afterwards.
And so no, a hundred percent, I would never
ever trick anybody on the recording process because
that's a surefire way to never have anybody else
want to come on the show.
And some of the best conversations
happen the second is you stop recording.
So I found that to be a useful trick.
Yes.
And then the other one that I do is I always
do push it a little far with that one extra
question that I know I probably shouldn't ask.
And so my trick is, and is really hard
as I'll ask it, it hurts to ask it.
It makes me cringe sometimes to ask it.
And then in the weird, awkward silence, right
as I'm about to say something, I will
literally put my tongue between my teeth, so
that I don't break either of us out of it.
And I let them take us out of it because they'll
take you out of it one way or the other, but
it's usually, it usually brings that conversation
just to that next little bit of down to earth,
real raw honesty and some beautiful things
happen out of that.
It doesn't have to be gotcha.
It doesn't have to be controversial.
Sometimes it's emotional.
Sometimes it's something about their childhood
that they're, I've had so many people
on the show stop, and this is why the beauty
happens in the silence.
The beauty happens in the silence and that's
why I bite my tongue, literally because
they remember things.
And you can see them remembering.
And it, as, as people who read, read people,
we want to help them, but they need that
moment just to remember.
And then some of the most amazing things
happen when they step back into their past.
Can you hear the kookaburra's
laughing at me.
I can hear 'em.
And I like that technique.
That is what are the hardest ones for me to
practice, and I know I should be doing that.
And for whatever reason I tend, I have, I think
maybe I have to do what you do is literally
stick your tongue up into your mouth.
Because you don't want, she's seeing
people uncomfortable.
I see it all the time with you, you know, I've
known you long enough.
You really don't like seeing people
uncomfortable.
You don't want to push people down.
You want to pull people up right.
Right.
And so sometimes in that moment of silence,
you think that they're dropping, but they're
actually coming up.
So just let them find their footing.
I think that's awesome advice.
Yeah.
I did a, a number of courses on interview
and interrogation and some with the
Vancouver police or with the Reed Institute
out of the states.
And there's, there's all these different ways
to be able to elicit information from people.
And I've never wanted to use those techniques
in a podcast scenario.
Because quite often it'll feel manipulative,
but one technique that they talk about, which
is very, very powerful is simply shut up,
keep your mouth shut because socially, people
want to be able, the silence is uncomfortable
for everybody.
People want to fill that with something.
And if you shut up, the person will keep talking,
just like I am right now.
No, but you know, what's beautiful
about it though.
And this is where I learned my lesson
was in editing.
In that moment, the silence feels like it
goes on forever, but in the edited version, when
you, when you're looking at the audio waves, that
silence wasn't nearly as long as it felt.
That's a really good point.
So sometimes that , three, four seconds
of silence feels like it's 40 seconds and
it's painful, but trust the audio waves, bite
your tongue, let them find their footing.
And they'll almost, listen if they don't
want to go down that road, they will
usually, there'll usually be a sign.
And listen, if, if panic flashes over their eyes,
I'll shut, you don't have to answer that.
It's all good, you don't have to answer that.
You know, you're reading, you're reading them.
That's why, it's why it's nice to be in person too.
You can see, you can feel like you're breathing
in their energy.
You can feel that change.
So we do lose some.
Yes.
Of that by doing it remotely.
That energy is something that's palpable at times.
When you're in the podcast studio, like
we brought up Colin Dowler before I just,
his emotional story of what he went through.
There is so much of that that ended
up cut out because from a psychological
perspective, here I am flown in, at his house.
He was kind enough to let me in and
do this interview.
And I want to hear the story about how you
fought off a grizzly bear with a knife.
And all I'm hearing from him is minutiae
and details all around the event, as opposed
to the actual event.
And I could tell at a certain point,
he is emotionally and psychologically
avoiding that, that whole instance again.
And I remember telling him, I
said, look at Colin.
It doesn't matter that I flew out here,
it doesn't matter.
Why don't we go for lunch?
We don't have to record.
Let's just listen.
He says, no, no, no, this is important.
I want to get this story out if we can
save someone's life.
And, but that the level of connection and, um,
that vibe that you get with some of the people
is, uh, uh, I find is what drives me to
be better at what I'm doing here and everyday
I'm reading, looking at different ways to
be better at this.
Boom.
So if, oh go.
No, that's exactly right.
So, if you had an uncomfortable question
for me, what would that question be?
Oh, it's probably political.
Um, uh, well, I just, I, I'm always very curious
how you manage politics.
I don't know if that's, if I'm going to die on
the sword though, I don't know if that's
the one I want to go on.
You get one chance!
Just one.
Um, if I had to ask you a really uncomfortable,
well listen, I did have, that was one
of my questions about regrets in life.
Uh, that'd be our w we did cover earlier.
And then I also did wonder how you
navigated marketing through integrity
versus clickbait.
We've covered that, but yeah, politics, I mean,
you, you work primarily, or you're known in a lot
of ways for firearms, which is an incredibly
polarizing subject.
It's something where you can be
painted into a box.
And listen, I get a little bit frustrated
sometimes because I've been painted into the fly
fishing steelhead box.
Even though I fly fish around the world,
I fish saltwater.
I hunt, I do all of these things, but I'm a fly
fishing steelhead girl.
How does it feel being painted into the box
of firearms company and how are you planning on,
I mean, I guess that's two different questions.
Let's stay away from politics because
I don't understand gun politics at all.
From a branding stance, how are you planning
on stepping outside of being put in the firearm
corner, cause nobody puts bady in the corner.
No one puts bady in the corner.
So what's really funny about that
question is the one I had for you next was
getting pigeonholed.
Ah hah!
And talking about how you were putting into
a box and how you're breaking out of that.
Yes.
People look at me as a gun guy.
I get it.
I get why they would look at me as a gun guy.
I have never looked at myself as a gun guy.
I got my first gun, I started shooting when I
was four, got my first gun when I was five,
competed as a preteen and teenager, I've trained at
all levels of government and trained others at
all levels of government.
I've gunsmithed for a number of years
for police agencies, armour car companies,
for private security, done work with, all
over the board and in the firearms world.
And I have never once considered myself
to be a gun guy.
Those gun guys, they're the ones that the
gun show, they're the ones on the forums.
They're the ones doing all of these
other things.
Um, they're really diehard, they're into it.
I've always considered myself, you know, I
guess I've had a hard time really putting
my finger on exactly what it is that that
truly drives me.
But like you, I think it's the adventure
of the unknown.
Excuse me.
So when, when I was younger, I would push
myself on adventures quite often, which were
extremely dangerous.
And I would come out of that feeling invigorated.
And I would tell others, I said, you never
feel truly alive until you've reached a point
where that threshold between possible life
and possible death is, is razor thin.
You leave that.
And I felt, hey, on top of the world,
this is great.
And I've had to take a look at a way that's
probably a lit, a bit more healthier
to navigate into the adventure and
the unknown and I've done that through
the business world.
So I've been pigeonholed by many as the big guy,
or the gun guy, or I think most who truly know
me would see me more as, he's a family man, and
he has way too many, um.
Toys.
Yeah.
And hobbies.
That's how I see you.
Right.
I love it though.
What are you going to do with, how are you going
to play with all these different toys, right?
Yeah, I dunno if it comes from not having
many toys growing up and trying to reach
a point where you can actually have something.
I never ever figured I'd be the type of
person to achieve, even just a fraction of what
I've got and if I'm able to help others.
Because at my core, I'm always, what gets me
really excited is being able to help others
do similar things, to see other people reach
their full potential.
Um, I, I think that would be, uh, perhaps a pigeon
hole that I would be more or a moniker that I'd be
more comfortable wearing.
Uh, then than the gun guy.
I consult for law firms or federal court,
provincial Supreme court on firearms and use of
force related matters, I still don't consider
myself the gun guy.
I don't know.
I guess it's easy in the.
All right.
So where did we leave off?
We were talking about pigeonholing.
We're were talking about pigeonholing
and I forget what the actual question was.
And I think I meandered all around on my answer
there a little bit.
You did a little bit, but what is your
plan moving forward?
Are you planning on trying to very
cognitively and very deliberately
break out of that?
So what I see is the firearms world,
although I don't see myself as a gun guy,
is the majority of what I know through life
and through business.
And it's where I've put so much effort
up until this point.
But I do see the writing on the wall
in so far as a social stigma associated with
the firearms industry.
All it takes is one lunatic to go out and
use a firearm in an inappropriate fashion.
And the world's in an uproar again, all of
a sudden Shopify is closing down people's
accounts if they have firearms related
activities or merchant providers are saying,
yeah, we're backing out.
We're not going to use you anymore.
And from a long-term business model
perspective, that's scary.
And I think it makes sense to try and take
that conversation.
I mean, you're essentially going
against almost a a hundred years of social
engineering on the perception of firearms.
I don't know if that's something that I
really want to take on.
I mean, I can, I can go against that current.
I can try and I can try and fight it, or
I can find a way to change that narrative
in a positive way.
Moving forward, there is a definite conscious
aspect to how do you grow the game forward
using what you know, but in a way that is
acceptable to today's current cancel culture.
Yeah, right.
Yeah.
Dun dun dun dun.
We just opened up a new can of worms..
Oh, tell me about it.
So there are so many opportunities that I
have been provided in the firearms industry
and continue to be provided that I am
simply not taking up.
Although lucrative, the emotional energy required
to push that one forward, in my opinion is not
worth it at this point.
And I feel like I can do a heck of a lot
more for the outdoors community, for the
hunting community, for the firearms community,
by, by transitioning the narrative of how firearms
are typically looked at and into something
that's way more socially acceptable and riding
current trends that are currently in place.
I mean, it doesn't take a genius to have to log
into Google trends and see what what's popping
and what isn't, and be able to leverage that
one much in the same way that, um, Shane Mahoney,
as a environmentalist, as a conservationist,
is taking an approach to, uh, getting
people interested in conservation, uh, is a
similar approach to what I'm looking at doing
with firearms and with my business in general.
Yeah, absolutely.
No, I like it.
I think you guys are doing great job.
It's funny, isn't it?
How a business can, you know, unintentionally
form someone's opinion about you.
I mean, I remember meeting you and Tiffany
very clearly, like it was yesterday, and
thinking to myself, I just automatically put
you guys in a box and I'm not against firearms.
I have firearms.
But for some reason, when you guys told me
you're into foraging and going crabbing and all
of the wonderful things that you're doing and
going fly fishing and stuff, I just, it was a
surprise, which is really ignorant on my part.
So unfortunately with our, our short attention
spans these days, we tend to, it's easy
just to put people in a box and decide.
It totally is.
Where you're putting them.
And then you know where to turn to when
you need that box.
You know what I mean?
It's not fair.
Yeah.
You know, I enjoy surfing.
I like skateboarding.
I got my electric skateboard.
I'll take into work.
I enjoy mountaineering.
I enjoy snowboarding, skiing, scuba, fishing,
hunting, firearms.
I mean, it's just, it's all over the board.
Like woodworking, metalworking.
I like electronics and it just, the list goes on.
And for me to be kind of pigeonholed into one
simple area as firearms alone is uh, I don't
know, it's somewhat limiting and it's one,
it's one area where I've never allowed myself to
be truly pigeonholed in.
May, maybe I consciously fight getting too far
into there cause I know that's going to
take away from other, other areas and other
interests that I have.
But I think in the end it'll lead to a more
holistic community and uh, and business.
That's right.
People are multi-dimensional,
we're not just, you know, one or nothing.
But I have a question for you.
You have mentioned ADHD a number of times now,
and as somebody who, I don't believe I'm ADHD,
but I know that I have a very similar brain to
yours in a lot of ways.
And I have my own uneducated opinion.
So it's very much just an opinion on ADHD.
I do wonder sometimes.
And my sister's a, uh, a doctor
that's psychiatrist.
Yeah.
Which is the one that yes, she's
a psychiatrist.
And so I know that she's got all this medical
stuff around ADHD, but I often wonder sometimes
if people who have ADHD just are people who
should be outside, maybe when we were younger.
I mean, when we were primitive or more
primitive, you know, back in the day, maybe that's
the people who had ADHD were meant to be out
there providing for, you know, their families.
Anyway, we could go down a whole different, like
I said, very uneducated tangent on that.
I would sound like a complete ass if I
don't already, but.
You don't.
But, well, I just, I remember once I think I
said something and this would have been again
about a decade ago, I said something about ADHD
isn't real or something.
And I had doctors just put me in my
place pretty fast.
So I'm very much ignorant when it comes to that.
But I have my own little theories and
speculations about that.
But, but, but let me get on track here, ADHD
and you, Travis Bader.
One thing I do know a lot about, as far as
having a racing mind and fly fishing, is that
they can work really well together or really
poorly with each other.
Because fly fishing is very meditative,
meditative.
And so if forced, I mean, you could meditate
by listening to the sound of wind, right?
You just have to focus on the sound of
something else beyond your own thoughts.
And so with fly fishing, uh, you focused on
a particular motion, which is actually
quite repetitive.
And so it can be very meditative for
a lot of people.
As somebody who has a brain that goes
a mile a minute, sometimes it's good
to help me slow down.
And sometimes it's impossible because I
can't get into casting because my brain's
moving a mile a minute.
You are pretty new to fly fishing and your brain
moves 200 miles a minute.
Does fly fishing pain you because it's just too
hard to sit still or has it helped you to relax
and focus and meditate?
I think you have a number of good
questions in there.
I almost feel like you pulled a punch there as
well, at the beginning.
But my personal opinion on the
whole idea of ADHD.
So I was diagnosed with ADHD when I was in grade
three, I was, uh, told that I was a perfectly
lovely human being up until I hit school.
And, uh, my parents would tell me that the teachers
ruined me, right.
They, and the school system, and I just
didn't jive with it.
And, um, by grade three I was taken in, I was,
uh, diagnosed with ADHD and prescribed
a lot of Ritalin.
And in fact, as the years went on all the way up
until grade seven, I was prescribed Ritalin.
I was told by my doctor, I was on the highest
dosage of Ritalin, uh, that he's aware of, of
anybody in the province because they could only
prescribe X certain amount in per pill.
So he'd have me takin' eight pills in the
morning and six pills in the afternoon.
And man, I was humming because Ritalin
is a stimulant.
My personal thought on all of that is there's
a lot of people out there who will want to
have a label for why they are a certain way.
Whether that's ADHD or, or, or
whatever it might be.
It makes them feel more comfortable with who
they are as a person and describing their, makes
them comfortable with their own idiosyncrasies.
I am not entirely sure I have ADHD, despite
being diagnosed with it, despite the troubles in
school, despite having to do the, the Ritalin
and all the rest.
I remember talking to a person who was a
professional individual at one point and they
said, is there any point in your life
when you felt you didn't have ADHD?
And I was, I said, well, yeah, you know,
I was, um, when I was traveling around the
world and in certain countries or, uh, I was
19 years old, couldn't speak the language of
the people around, so you're quite quiet.
You're quite, uh, observant.
And I found there is a very, very calming,
calming process.
And when I finally did return home for years,
for about a year, I, anyways, everyone says,
man you've changed.
You're different, you're calm, you're quiet.
Right.
Um, so the person said, well, if you had
that, what makes you think you do have ADHD?
So ADHD from my understanding is
something to do with a disassociation between
the prefrontal cortex and the rest of the
brain and how it, how it interacts and why people
will tend to not look at consequences, which
was one thing when I was growing up, I wouldn't
look at consequences.
I would do things, not thinking that the end
result of what I'm doing could be my death, or
it could be something, I would just do it.
Cause right now in that moment, that was
something I was keen on.
But in other ways, uh, it could be
environmental, right?
If you're living in a certain environment and
there's a certain level of chaos in your life,
perhaps you seek out chaos because that's
what you know, to be comic, normal, natural.
Perhaps I put myself in situation.
Exciting.
Right.
Which makes you happy, which brings
us full circle.
But yes, continue, continue.
I'm fascinated.
Right.
So was I putting myself in these
situations, which were dangerous or exciting.
I mean, just, just stupid crap.
And you know, part of me wants to say it
because people will be like, oh my God, I can't
believe you did that.
It would be interesting for discussion.
The other part realizes that my kids listen
to the podcast.
So I think I'll leave those parts out.
Um, is it, is it a by-product of a, uh,
disassociation or the neural network between
the prefrontal cortex and the rest of your brain
and making decisions and consequences and all
the rest, or is it how you, uh, deal with your
surroundings and react to your environment?
Um, so when you look at fly fishing, for
example, some people say, man, if you have
ADHD, you get hyper-focus other people say, no,
no, no, no, that's not hyper-focus, that's the
inability to unfocus.
It's not that you've got this great
thing going on.
It's the fact that you can't switch gears like
other people normally do.
I see that in myself when I work, I work.
And in fact, I, I re you know, I can remember one
shift pulling in, I think it was 27 hours of just
working and there I am in the shop and it would
be a normal occurrence.
I mean, Tiff would come by, I'd be working in the
shop early in the morning and she'd bring on some
food and I got breakfast and she'd bring me food
the next morning as well.
I mean, and then when I'm not working on
playing, all I wanted to do was play, right.
Then I'm into play mode.
And I, and I don't, have to have a
hard time getting back into the work.
The actual act of, uh, fly fishing for
me, isn't so much a meditative process
because my hands are always doing something.
If you could see my feet right now, they're
bouncing a mile a minute, but being in the river,
being in a boat, being out in the environment,
I find that brings a level of presentness
that is absent in my, in my everyday life.
So it's not necessarily the activity, but is
my surroundings that I find will bring in that
level of present ness.
And you say listening to the wind, it could be as
simple as looking at a color and concentrating
on that color or the waves or a smell or in
that is one thing that I found I've had to work
really hard on is live in that present moment.
That's a long-winded way of getting at it.
And there's more, I got so much more
to say on this.
No, I think it's great.
Hang on.
So for your listener and your viewer, I
have a three-and-a-half year old under my feet.
So if you see me like that, um, having cables
pulling and me shifting, and me trying to phrase
a question intelligently, unsuccessfully,
that is why, so we'll leave that in.
So people know why I sound like a moron.
Um, so now that we've gotten that out of the
way, so people know what's happening because
they're like, why is she having spasms?
Um, do you, and, and I'm going to just
come around here.
So my sister was diagnosed, was
diagnosed with it.
She did not have, she didn't have it.
Sure.
And quite a few of my friends were
diagnosed with it.
They didn't have it.
And I thought it was very strange that when
I would take them out fishing and more recently
hunting that suddenly this ADHD was just gone.
It didn't, it wasn't there, because
they were outside.
And I am always been vocal that I believe
that the way that we're supposed to, supposed
to live, you know, with these nine to five
jobs, driving an hour there and an hour back,
fluorescent lighting, white walls, basically
in an insane asylum, for the majority of our day
is completely unnatural.
I've always looked at people who have
ADHD, who, because who normalize and level out,
out in the wilderness to just be more in touch
with who they are as primitive beings and
who they are as humans.
Do you find that the ADHD and I don't mean
when you're sitting there staking out a
deer and you getting all these business ideas.
I mean, that's just part of being
a business owner.
Right.
But did you ever find growing up that your
ADHD and my quotations are not discrediting
it medically.
No no.
I'm just talking.
No I.
About you specifically.
Yeah.
Did it disappear when you were outside.
Yes.
And to a, and I will, I will preface that.
So when, when you do the quotation marks
on ADHD, I'm on the same page as you, I'm
not entirely certain.
I think there's an entire industry that's
rotated around mental health in children that
is predicated on trying to give pills or therapy
to individuals who could probably thrive in
different environments.
The whole school system that we
have is antiquated.
Why are we separating people based on their age
as if that will, you're five years old, this is
what you have to learn.
You're 12 years old here, here's, here's
what you need to know.
I mean, my son's 12 and he flies airplanes, not
just the remote control ones, but real airplanes.
He hasn't landed them yet.
He does ground school at the local uh,
uh flight center.
And that's his passion.
That's what he's interested in.
What, what says, and he's, he won't
miss a, a, a date of school, loves it.
He's there on time, gets dressed up for it
because if the pilots have to look presentable.
I think the majority of people who are
being diagnosed as, um, whatever abnormal
personality or learning, learning traits that
they might have, are because our current
system isn't set up to easily deal with all the
different types of people and how they learn.
That, that's.
How can it be abnormal, when society
is so abnormal.
Well, and that's it.
It's not necessarily, I think the school system
is largely, uh, geared for many years uh,
there's been a switch to having a geared towards
uh female learning.
So a lot of men in the school system will have
a difficult time fitting in within the same way
that female learning is, is conducted.
There are differences in gender and how
people approach things.
There are differences in cultures of how
people will learn.
I am not entirely convinced that ADHD
in and of itself is something that, um,
I'll, I'll get myself in trouble with the
ADHD world out there.
Uh, I don't know.
I I'm like you, a lot of people who are diagnosed
with it, who just don't have it, but you were,
you were asking about going out in the outside.
Uhm trying to keep that.
There's a solution by the way, just to cut you off.
And I apologize, but the solution is
always so simple.
Time to book a podcast, get one of
these psychiatrists on the show.
I'd recommend my sister-in-law, but
she hasn't spent a day of her life outside.
So she is a moot point, but, but, uh, that
would be an excellent, I would love to
listen to you discuss that with somebody.
I think that would be an interesting one to
do and in fact I know professionals in the
industry, and I think I'll have some contrary
ideas and opinions.
Growing up I was raised and told I'm a square peg
and all these teachers are trying to hammer me
into a round hole, right?
Oh, I was raised in a very antiestablishment
us against them sort of mentality.
Um, I don't think that's doing anybody any favors.
If somebody has ADHD or whatever it might
be, telling them that everybody else is wrong
and they're right might be a comforting platitude
for a youngster.
But providing that youngster with the tools
and skillset to be able to operate within this
world of round holes is far more beneficial.
So saying, well you're just a hyperactive kid.
You got ADHD or you got dyslexia, or you have
whatever it might be.
Here's some pills, you're different.
Here you go over there, we'll treat
you differently.
I think people would be far better served
if they looked at these individuals and found
what it was that truly motivated or drove them.
Cause you look at these kids like, oh man, that
kid is super lazy, but they can sure spend all
day in front of the TV playing video games.
It's not that they're necessarily lazy,
it's just that you're not engaging them.
You're not providing them an environment
that speaks to what their attention needs.
So find a way to be able to speak to the kids and
to people who have ADHD or whatever it might be.
And I think you're going to find that the
whole, um, ADHD, ADHD thing greatly reduces in
spectrum of who actually has it and who doesn't.
Yeah.
Well, I think that you should take that on.
Spearhead that one.
I've thought about it before on my show,
but, um, it just never got around to it.
And I also don't feel, as I'm being pushed away
from my interference.
Sorry.
Um, I also don't feel like I could speak
on it to the same with, at the same
depth that you can so.
Do you feel like you've got ADHD?
No, I never did feel that way because I
mean, I could never stay focused at school.
I fell asleep in class, but I just knew it
was because they were boring me to tears.
I was not being challenged and, and
I worked around it.
I mean, I, when, when I was in the 10th grade, I
said, mom, they're not, it's not working for me.
I want to go into an advanced, advanced
placement course.
And so I did.
And so instead of going to school in Surrey, high
school, I went to Clayton Heights the first year
that it opened because they had an advanced
placement course.
And, um, and look that worked a little bit,
I was a little bit more challenged, but I
realized very quickly because I was working
throughout both jobs.
That just what I was interested in, which was
investing, like I said, I started investing at 16.
I was interested in things that they just
weren't teaching.
And so I thought that college was going to
be the, the answer, you know, then I can pick and
choose things that will challenge me, but all it,
it worked the opposite.
It made me realize, okay, so I'm going to
school though, to get, cause I'm a long-term
player, this job.
And then what is this job, what is this
job gonna do for me?
All, it's going to stick me right back in the
same bloody nine to five that I've been trying
to escape my whole life.
So for me, that was when it all kind of
full circled back to, you know, okay.
So I need to live, I clearly need to
be outside because it's the only thing
that challenges me and keeps me engaged.
Say that in business, those are my two things.
What do you know?
They work well together.
You do the challenging outdoor stuff in the
day and you can do the challenging business
stuff at night.
And so the two went hand in hand, I dropped out of
college and here we are.
Do you find that funny that two people who
had difficulties in the traditional school system
have gone on and operate training companies?
Oh, I have never thought about that.
I think, cause I'm still so new to this, right?
This is only my second year at this game.
Uh, and if you remember, when I started Anchored
Outdoors, I didn't know where I was going.
I just thought I was gonna, I mean, the
show was a storytelling platform and I thought
we were going to continue storytelling,
but then I listened to my audience and they
wanted more instruction.
So it's, it's, it's, it's evolved
naturally that way.
I don't know, ask me again in five years.
I know that, like I said, I've never
felt so fulfilled.
So I mean, I really feel like I'm giving back.
I genuinely feel like that.
You're an incredibly good instructor.
I watched.
Oh thank you.
You teach.
You've got stuff online.
You've the way that you communicate to people.
Have you had any training in that respect or is
it just what you feel comes natural to you?
Yeah.
Now it just comes natural.
I really, I really enjoy teaching fly fishing.
Yeah.
Well, you're really good at it.
Awe thanks.
And you're able to get complex, complex ideas
across in a very simple fashion and yeah, no,
you're a I in a good hearted way as well.
You did you get into teaching because it
was your, a way to kind of buck the system or
do you think it just happened unintentionally?
Well, when I was 12 years old, I got into
the army cadet movement and I, through that
learned man management and method of instruction
from the department and the national defense's
standpoint anyways.
And I found, I thrived.
I was actually pretty good at it and it was a
lot of fun and I enjoyed getting up there and
teaching people, I was never the type of person
who wanted to be at the front of the class.
Yet I was able to, I, I was able to do
it in a way that, uh, was helping other
people learn skills.
And so I had to learn how to be the person
who's up in the front of the class and not
just be the gray man.
And consequently, I started doing some
training at the Justice Institute of British
Columbia as a teenager.
And uh, enhancing what I knew and I just found
some natural things that I could do, while I was
still going to school and do some training
programs on, on weekends.
That was never supposed to be what
the business model was.
It was just something I did that I enjoy.
The business model was supposed to be,
uh, more machining and woodworking and, uh,
basically doing it being a self-taught millwright
and the gunsmithing all around that.
Cause I, I really enjoy creating things.
I realized after the first year or two,
that if, unless you've, unless you're a ticketed
millwright and you want to be able to do this
as a business, uh, most people don't want to pay
a kid top dollar to work or build them stuff.
Most people will trade you three-year-old
freezer burnt venison or.
Excuse me.
Bear meat.
Different bits of parts and pieces.
Oh, totally right.
I got some great bear meat for ya.
Story of my life.
Don't get me wrong, I love bear meat.
And uh, so I, it, that, and the fact that every
job that came in was different and in order to
be able to, uh, well, oh, well that is interesting.
It doesn't have a replicatable, uh,
business model for long-term success.
You're basically, your your, the person
working behind the counter at your local
corner store, you're running a business.
It's the same thing.
It's a model that's in place that I didn't
find very fulfilling in a creative process.
So that's, that's why I took it to
the training side.
Cause I just, I saw so much that I could
do to help others meet their needs.
And I thought I've always felt it was a
fulfilling thing for me.
And I could see the, um, the growth industry.
Yep, absolutely.
I love it.
What other questions have you got?
Okay.
Here's one, what's a question that
people should ask you, but haven't yet?
That sounds like a TikTok skit.
I know.
That's actually a really good question.
I don't know.
There's a few, I don't know.
Because there's going to be experiences in your
life that will bring value to other people
that they can learn from, that either people have
shied away from asking you, or it's off-brand
to, to whatever the, uh, the platform that
you're currently on.
Um, I think, and this isn't something I want
to go into now, but I think a question that
would S that people don't ask me, but they
should, is probably politically, which side
of the fence I sit on.
I think a lot of people assume to know
my thoughts on things and they have no idea.
Um.
You're libertarian.
Already know it.
You'd be surprised.
Uh, I'm definitely, I think I'm a rational
human being and I see both sides, but yeah,
I think that would surprise a lot of people.
What I'm afraid of um, I think would probably
surprise some people.
That's a pretty shallow one, I mean, I'm
afraid of the dark.
It's pretty simple one, but something that I
think what surprise a lot of people is my opinion
on masculinity and men.
Okay.
Because recently with, you know, in light of
all the me too stuff.
And like you'd mentioned earlier, just bringing
it back to what you said about female based, I
think you said education.
Right.
Um I think that people would be surprised to
hear my thoughts and opinions on men today.
Given I have such an interesting history
of men with my career.
You know, I hear that all the time.
What's it like to be a woman in a male
dominated industry.
And I have got stories for days, stories for
days about horrible things about men
in the industry.
Right.
But that doesn't make me look at men
differently today.
Um, like I think, I mean, it does for sure.
I look at the industry.
I'm very jaded when I look at the industry and
certain professionals, but I think that a lot
of people assume I'm on board with this whole
woman push because I am admittedly a feminist,
back in the day, what feminist used to be,
which was just like equality for both sides.
Sure.
Before we started tickets to this radical extreme,
but I think people would be surprised to
know my take on toxic masculinity, which is
interesting because you may be somebody who
is deemed as, I mean, do you open the door
for women these days?
Yes.
You know, that's frowned upon, right, like.
I do.
In some circles that's really frowned.
Is that bad?
Upon.
Yeah yeah.
Um, um.
I, I am, I am so out of touch with,
with all that stuff.
I, I might be a bit of a luddite on it, but
I, I I've had younger generations look at me
and, uh, I know like I'm a, like, I'm a dinosaur.
Those in their twenties and thirties.
I'm not that much older, but they look
at me like, I'm just like, not in a bad way.
Like I've had people admire me cause, you're
were so manly, and I'm like, compared to what?
Right.
Well nowadays, and I think, so I think that's
something that, and it will all circle back
to politically, but that's just one element.
That's probably the safest, most
relatable element, just because, like I
said, fly fishing as a woman in fly fishing.
I think that is one conversation that
would surprise people is that I don't,
I'm not against men.
I love men.
I'm married to an alpha male.
I'm probably an alpha female.
Our marriage is very interesting.
Um, but.
Yes.
I am definitely not, even though I'm for equality.
I think that it's been taken too far recently,
so that is always a topic over a whiskey
or a glass of wine that is surprising
to very close friends of mine when we start
to go down that road.
Yeah.
I, I think that there's a lot of people that
form their opinions on whatever might be
going on at the current time based on what
the popular wave is.
And they're afraid to buck that trend and
they lack the moral fortitude and integrity
to be able to stand up and say, you know what?
This is how I feel and why.
Or like, I'm okay if somebody holds the
door open for me in the same breath, I, I'm
not going to be upset.
If a woman holds the door open for me, that's fine.
I probably end up grabbing it and say,
after you, not a problem, cause that's
how I was raised.
And in fact, I did that today.
I opened, I scooted up in front, I had a
meeting with a, uh, with the person that
we do business with and I scooted up in
front and opened the door to the restaurant
for her, not even thinking twice about it.
And now that you bring.
That's, that's toxic masculinity right
there at its finest.
Is that what they sayin?
I think I haven't listened.
I admittedly listen to an unhealthy amount
of Jordan Peterson.
Which I don't know if there's such a thing.
For certain people though, for certain
people, they've listened to one eight
minute segment on YouTube and they know
enough about him and they've automatically
pigeonholed me.
They've just put me in a box that I am,
you know, of one mindset or the other.
I don't agree with everything he says, but,
um, but yeah, I mean, in some people's viewpoints
back to holding a door open, that would be
something that would be highly offensive.
And this is all very new.
So I think I, and again, I don't open
this crazy can of like enormous earthworms
here, but politically all of it right now,
the whole disaster of cancel culture, the
trans movement, which again, I'm not against
any of these things.
I just believe in, like, if you call me a birthing
parent, I'm going to punch you in the face.
And I'm serious.
That is really, really offensive to me right?
Like I just.
You heard of this.
So you're gonna have to tell me, I'm sorry.
You're going to have to fill me in, what's
a birthing parent?
Oh, oh oh, a mother, mother.
And listen, this is, these are real
conversations.
I had it out with a 25 year old, the other day,
a very well enjoyable two hour long debate
about this, but it is offensive now to call a
mother, a mother, because it could be exclusive to
people who aren't women.
What is a woman?
The words, woman, woman is now offensive.
So if you, if you're now having a baby,
you are called up birthing parent.
Birthing unit.
Parent.
You are a birthing unit.
A birthing person or birthing parents.
That's right.
So, so I think, I think just, you know, for
entertainment sake, I think that would be
something that would surprise a lot of people
is my, um, which is my political stance, I
think would be probably quite surprising
to a lot of people.
Given, given the feedback, people send me
articles and people send me posts on social media
and they're like, you'll really like this, and
I'm going, why on earth?
Do you think because I was bullied by men that
I'm going to like that.
Or do you think, because I look at Patagonia
that I'm this crazy liberal, like you need
to take a step back and, and do you think that
I automatically would vote for Biden because
you think, you know, my stance on certain
conservation issues?
I, I, so I think politically I would
surprise a lot of people with the new movement and
this new, um, world of woke-ism, which again,
I agree with some of it and strongly disagree
with other parts of it.
So let's just say, um, I listened to Ben Shapiro a
lot, even though we don't agree with everything,
you know, I, I.
That guys sharp as a whip.
He's great.
Years ago.
But a lot of people right now will tusk,
stop listening to me.
They, if they don't dislike me already,
they'll dislike me after this because they will
assume that I have to be on one side of the
one side or the other.
So I think that that's, um, that's just always
interesting to me that we, as people, whether it
be social media tidbits, or whether it be just
putting someone in a box politically or at work
within the outdoors.
I get very frustrated with the fact that we
seem to have discredited the amount of depth
that human beings can actually have.
Yeah, I agree.
And just a quick segue, the Ben Shapiro one,
years ago, uh, I guess he came over to UBC and
he was giving a lecture and I was contacted
by somebody, they reached out and they
said, you want to be a sponsor at this event,
we got Ben Shapiro.
It's going to be awesome.
And I said, who?
Like, I don't know who this guy is right.
And, and, uh, they said, oh, it'll be
totally on brand.
Because like, right-wing like firearms owners
and these kind of people they're going
to love, love him.
Like, this is what you want to be involved with.
I'm like, yeah, no, thanks.
Like this guy seems like too hot to touch.
I've quickly did a quick YouTube.
And, and I, I didn't know much about him.
Other than that, people were like rioting
and, and trying to drive him out to
different audiences.
In hindsight, it would have been awesome to
sponsor that event and get to meet the guy
because, you know, he's extremely sharp, albeit
sometimes controversial, oftentimes controversial.
Uh, and he takes a different approach than
Peterson, for example, uh, where Peterson, I
don't want to ascribe a percentage, but if I
was asked to, I would say almost 90% of
what Peterson comes up with are questions or
observations, they're not, you have to do this.
There are some things that you'll get hard
and fast on, but for the most part, he thinks
really hard and really deeply about things.
And ask certain things like why is it that A,
B and C, and it's very easy to debate or it's,
he's a very good debater.
It's easier to debate a position when you're not
taking that firm stance on certain things when
you're actually asking questions and putting
the other person on that, that, and so I think the
majority of what Peterson comes up with actually
isn't controversial.
It's just.
Thought provoking.
People.
Right.
And so I find people are so intertwined with their
political ideologies nowadays, more so than
ever, in such a way.
And this is funny because it's something
I talked about a couple of days ago with Sonny,
the ex British special forces commando, just
so closely intertwined.
I am liberal or I am conservative, or I am
whatever it might be.
And if somebody asks some questions about
it or, uh, shines light on other possible
alternatives, it's.
They're shunned.
It seems to fundamentally offend them at their
core because they said, that's me.
How can, how can you look at me and ask
those sort of questions, whether that be gender
identity, whether that be like you're saying, um,
uh, toxic masculinity.
I mean, this is what everyone's saying.
This is what you have to do.
Yeah.
It's, it's human nature.
I think.
At its very core, its human nature
wanting to belong.
And I remember being raised, I mean my, my
father would always point out someone who's
got a spiked hair cut or dyed hair or someone
wearing an earring.
It's like, look at this person and
trying to be cool.
Just trying to be original, just like
everybody else.
Right.
Well, interesting observation from, from
the beat cops detect or beat cops perspective.
Um, but it's the same thing now.
People want to belong.
They want to know they're lacking an identity of
their own and they're trying very hard to hold
on to whatever they feel is a popular identity.
And quite often that popular identity now
is looking at how unpopular I am, look
at how different I am.
Um.
Yeah, good point.
Yeah.
Well, um, I think, uh, I think we're far
more complex as humans than just what we do
for work or just what we do for our hobbies.
Uh, April, I am so excited about being able
to showcase your courses through Silvercore.
I can't wait for others to be able to take this
and provide feedback and, and be able to experience
what I've been able to experience through them.
Thank you very much for being on the
podcast here again.
And I look forward to when we are able to get
back together in person.
Me too.
Thank you for letting me ramble.
Thank you for everyone listening, dealing with
me, being pushed around and cut off by a three
and a half year old.
I really appreciate your patience with
me and giving me the chance to talk.
You know, it's so nice to be able to have,
uh, to really actually be able to have a
two-way conversation.
So thank you.