WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.789 --> 00:00:06.320 Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs Podcast, the show for dog lovers who 00:00:06.340 --> 00:00:12.000 see dogs not as toys or tools, but wise souls worth our respect and care. 00:00:12.580 --> 00:00:14.559 I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host. 00:00:15.320 --> 00:00:20.560 I talk to poor some humans, people who do great work for dogs and their people. 00:00:21.099 --> 00:00:23.360 So come and join us for today's conversation. 00:00:25.918 --> 00:00:27.498 Anke: Hello and welcome, Suzanne. 00:00:27.508 --> 00:00:30.508 We've just been having the most delightful conversation and I 00:00:30.508 --> 00:00:35.628 just, I'm really excited to include listeners into it, into the rest of it. 00:00:35.628 --> 00:00:39.248 So, why don't we start, let people know where you're based and 00:00:39.318 --> 00:00:40.478 what's your business with dogs? 00:00:41.558 --> 00:00:46.118 Suzanne: All right, so I am in currently snowy upstate New York. 00:00:46.128 --> 00:00:50.578 As late in the season as it is, we just had a beautiful five inches of snow 00:00:51.098 --> 00:00:52.868 and a little bit more coming today. 00:00:52.868 --> 00:00:56.278 So upstate New York, we always, we always make that distinction. 00:00:56.278 --> 00:00:57.468 It's upstate New York. 00:00:57.468 --> 00:00:59.968 So people don't think that we're talking about Manhattan. 00:01:00.398 --> 00:01:02.398 So this is farm country. 00:01:02.748 --> 00:01:06.848 Um, it's all dairy country and it's, set along the Mohawk River. 00:01:07.128 --> 00:01:12.513 Beautiful quiet place to And we've got a working farm up here with cows, 00:01:12.513 --> 00:01:18.203 horses, donkeys, pigs, chickens, cats, parrots, lots of dogs, of 00:01:18.203 --> 00:01:19.913 course, and Scottish Highland cattle. 00:01:20.443 --> 00:01:27.263 So, we, um, stay busy, let's say that, and you might hear the parrots join us, and 00:01:27.263 --> 00:01:29.207 if so, I apologize, but we've gotta go. 00:01:29.698 --> 00:01:32.368 Umbrella Cockatoo, an Amazon, and a Scarlet Macaw. 00:01:32.798 --> 00:01:36.678 And, um, when they decide to join us and help, it can get a little noisy. 00:01:36.678 --> 00:01:39.128 So hopefully all will be well. 00:01:39.358 --> 00:01:40.648 Anke: That's, that's perfect. 00:01:40.688 --> 00:01:43.208 You know, and the thing is like, this is a doggy podcast. 00:01:43.258 --> 00:01:49.791 You know, animals, like, you know, yeah, I can't, I couldn't possibly say, no, no, 00:01:49.791 --> 00:01:51.977 we don't want the birds to chirp, right? 00:01:51.977 --> 00:01:52.524 No, no. 00:01:52.524 --> 00:01:55.548 Or, you know, like any animal is always welcome for sure. 00:01:56.258 --> 00:02:00.658 Suzanne: And I went to a radio interview and I wasn't really listening and the 00:02:00.678 --> 00:02:05.628 Amazon was doing his little happy thing in the background and finally the reporter 00:02:05.628 --> 00:02:07.928 said, do you need to go take care of that? 00:02:08.238 --> 00:02:09.278 Is something wrong? 00:02:09.278 --> 00:02:13.948 And I was like, no, no, everything seems to be fine. 00:02:13.948 --> 00:02:19.598 You know, finally she said, but your baby, I was like, my baby, I was like, 00:02:19.688 --> 00:02:21.668 you know, my baby's 37 years old. 00:02:21.668 --> 00:02:26.313 And And, um, and then I got annoyed because I thought, well, if that 00:02:26.493 --> 00:02:29.483 was my baby crying, don't you think I would go take care of it? 00:02:29.893 --> 00:02:33.563 Like, you know, that you would have to remind me maybe baby's crying. 00:02:33.993 --> 00:02:36.293 I was like, no, that's, that's my parrot. 00:02:36.513 --> 00:02:37.363 She's like, okay. 00:02:37.573 --> 00:02:39.413 So you asked, what do I do as dogs? 00:02:39.423 --> 00:02:41.767 So I am a full time professional trainer. 00:02:42.428 --> 00:02:46.688 And at this point, I don't have a training school per se anymore, but 00:02:46.688 --> 00:02:51.248 I train trainers, and then I teach educational courses online and, uh, 00:02:51.258 --> 00:02:55.948 before COVID hit, I traveled all over the world teaching in person seminars 00:02:55.948 --> 00:03:01.343 and working with people, um, and trying to Trying to produce materials that help 00:03:01.353 --> 00:03:07.273 people find better ways to build really healthy relationships with their dogs. 00:03:07.543 --> 00:03:11.573 So it's not, here's how to make a perfect sit, or here's how to have, you 00:03:11.573 --> 00:03:17.773 know, high scoring healing, um, but it really goes to the foundation of this 00:03:17.783 --> 00:03:20.433 interaction between you and an animal. 00:03:21.003 --> 00:03:25.193 How, how do we make that satisfying and fair for both ends? 00:03:26.358 --> 00:03:26.918 Anke: I love that. 00:03:27.178 --> 00:03:30.748 I think, I mean, it's, it's what I stumbled across you online. 00:03:30.748 --> 00:03:36.038 I was like, Oh my God, like, I just love the focus on the relationship because 00:03:36.248 --> 00:03:41.988 I feel like without that, everything else is sort of fragile on the surface. 00:03:43.538 --> 00:03:45.418 Suzanne: That is a really, really good word. 00:03:45.438 --> 00:03:46.578 It's fragile. 00:03:47.168 --> 00:03:51.158 And, and so when people bring me problems, what I'm looking for 00:03:51.158 --> 00:03:53.058 is I go to the foundation level. 00:03:53.408 --> 00:03:57.558 I don't, I don't want as a trainer, I've been in the business a very long time. 00:03:57.558 --> 00:04:02.248 I'm 65 and I've been a professional with animals since 1977. 00:04:03.108 --> 00:04:04.308 So a long time. 00:04:04.788 --> 00:04:07.418 And I know the band aids, my dog's doing this. 00:04:07.428 --> 00:04:09.118 How do I make him not do that? 00:04:09.128 --> 00:04:10.332 How do I get him to do this? 00:04:10.853 --> 00:04:15.923 But I kept finding that as long as I stayed on that very fragile, superficial 00:04:15.923 --> 00:04:19.803 level, it was like the, you know, they call it the whack a mole game, right? 00:04:19.803 --> 00:04:22.503 So you hit down one thing and it pops up someplace else. 00:04:23.083 --> 00:04:26.153 And I started to think this is not fixing anything. 00:04:26.293 --> 00:04:31.413 We're just covering this up, but we need to go to the foundation and fix that. 00:04:31.433 --> 00:04:37.253 So everything I do is, has increasingly, the older I get gone deeper and 00:04:37.263 --> 00:04:40.493 deeper to build a solid foundation. 00:04:41.188 --> 00:04:44.668 So that we're not, we're not building something that's fragile, we're building 00:04:44.668 --> 00:04:49.228 something that's strong that can withstand what life is going to hand everybody. 00:04:49.768 --> 00:04:53.818 Um, and then on top of them, we decide what we want to build on that foundation. 00:04:54.798 --> 00:04:55.278 Anke: Love that. 00:04:55.528 --> 00:05:04.518 So how would you describe, if I have a really strong, grounded relationship 00:05:04.538 --> 00:05:06.168 with my dog, what does that look like? 00:05:08.268 --> 00:05:10.768 Suzanne: I think it's, it's a two way street, first of all. 00:05:11.213 --> 00:05:15.773 We spend a lot of time talking, you know, it's, it's, it's the quote from, you 00:05:15.773 --> 00:05:20.383 know, Winnie the Pooh, you know, a lot of people talk to animals, but very few 00:05:20.383 --> 00:05:25.263 listen, um, so that a lot of training is about, Hey dog, Hey horse, I'm going 00:05:25.263 --> 00:05:28.653 to, I'm going to tell you what you need to know and what you need to do and what 00:05:28.653 --> 00:05:30.043 you should do and what you shouldn't do. 00:05:31.093 --> 00:05:33.723 For me, a relationship is number one. 00:05:33.743 --> 00:05:39.023 I'm intensely curious about that other being, whether that's my 00:05:39.033 --> 00:05:46.083 husband or a new friend or, uh, A horse I just met or yeah, uh, you 00:05:46.083 --> 00:05:47.763 know, the, the dog laying at my feet. 00:05:47.983 --> 00:05:50.723 I'm intensely curious about who are you? 00:05:50.733 --> 00:05:52.513 How do you process the world? 00:05:52.773 --> 00:05:53.813 How do you see the world? 00:05:53.813 --> 00:05:55.133 What do you like to do? 00:05:55.773 --> 00:05:58.433 You know, how in our interactions. 00:05:59.828 --> 00:06:01.298 What's, what's good for you? 00:06:01.358 --> 00:06:04.048 So it's a two way street of great curiosity. 00:06:04.098 --> 00:06:05.398 The animal's not interested in me. 00:06:05.418 --> 00:06:06.748 We don't have a relationship. 00:06:07.448 --> 00:06:12.258 Um, but then I have to also, it, it's kind of the old joke, I know that you 00:06:12.258 --> 00:06:17.318 know that I know that you know that I know that you know that feedback loop has 00:06:17.318 --> 00:06:22.858 to be clean and respectful so that if I said something to you and you're like, 00:06:22.858 --> 00:06:24.368 well, I don't actually find that funny. 00:06:24.368 --> 00:06:25.468 And I'm like, well, too bad. 00:06:25.723 --> 00:06:26.843 I think it's a star. 00:06:27.923 --> 00:06:30.683 Um, we probably wouldn't have much of a relationship. 00:06:30.683 --> 00:06:34.673 There's, we do this with humans all the time, where we actually 00:06:34.673 --> 00:06:37.963 communicate to someone like, that's not funny for me, right? 00:06:37.963 --> 00:06:40.853 I don't find that, I don't feel safe here. 00:06:40.863 --> 00:06:42.803 And we're like, too bad, suck it up, buttercup. 00:06:43.573 --> 00:06:47.223 And when we do that with animals, we have the power to do that with 00:06:47.223 --> 00:06:50.573 animals, because we control their being. 00:06:50.583 --> 00:06:54.663 We can control their food, where they go, how much freedom they have. 00:06:54.693 --> 00:06:57.713 We can even deprive them of water if we want. 00:06:58.173 --> 00:07:00.163 We tell them when they can go to the bathroom. 00:07:00.653 --> 00:07:05.433 Um, and if I did that to a human, that would be called taking someone hostage. 00:07:06.013 --> 00:07:08.083 And we know what happens if you take someone hostage. 00:07:08.083 --> 00:07:11.123 They, they can learn to love you because they're so dependent on you. 00:07:11.633 --> 00:07:13.273 But I don't want that. 00:07:13.273 --> 00:07:18.488 So a relationship for me that's healthy, I is not dependent on, I 00:07:18.488 --> 00:07:22.028 will give you your needs and I will deprive you if you don't comply. 00:07:23.068 --> 00:07:24.278 Your needs will be met. 00:07:25.358 --> 00:07:28.508 I am not dependent on equipment to hold you to me. 00:07:28.998 --> 00:07:33.058 You know, if I said, I've got a friend and I lock her in the basement, cause 00:07:33.058 --> 00:07:34.858 you know, she might talk to someone else. 00:07:35.208 --> 00:07:37.988 Um, but she's really, she's really a very cool friend. 00:07:38.088 --> 00:07:42.578 Um, there's an article on my website called Of Hostages and Relationships. 00:07:43.123 --> 00:07:45.313 Cause some of the training says that. 00:07:45.923 --> 00:07:48.023 Don't, don't let your dog talk to other people. 00:07:48.033 --> 00:07:50.283 Never let anything good come from someone else. 00:07:50.283 --> 00:07:51.263 I'm like, why? 00:07:51.833 --> 00:07:55.403 That's like saying no one can make my husband laugh or, you know, take him 00:07:55.403 --> 00:07:57.463 out and have a nice outing with him. 00:07:57.463 --> 00:07:59.223 Cause then he'll come home and he won't want me. 00:07:59.223 --> 00:08:00.803 It's like, it's insane. 00:08:01.153 --> 00:08:07.243 Um, so it has to be a two way street for sure, with respect for who they are. 00:08:07.723 --> 00:08:14.668 And, and in this unbalanced human animal situation, We have to be cognizant 00:08:14.678 --> 00:08:19.498 of how much power we have in that relationship to control their lives. 00:08:20.543 --> 00:08:24.403 And that is never to be taken, uh, lightly by any means. 00:08:25.103 --> 00:08:25.933 Anke: That's so true. 00:08:26.063 --> 00:08:27.103 I mean, you just make me laugh. 00:08:27.123 --> 00:08:33.043 Like when you take this, these scenarios that are so common in the, you know, human 00:08:33.043 --> 00:08:38.133 dog and you take that into, you do that to a friend, it's like, oh, it just like 00:08:38.133 --> 00:08:42.957 really shows so beautifully how Yeah. 00:08:43.038 --> 00:08:45.988 Suzanne: And same thing with, you know, it's like using, whether we're 00:08:45.988 --> 00:08:51.108 using punishment or we're using food rewards, you know, or toys. 00:08:51.388 --> 00:08:54.108 If someone said, Oh yeah, my wife loves me. 00:08:54.108 --> 00:08:57.748 You know, I lock her in the, in the closet when I leave home. 00:08:57.748 --> 00:09:02.478 But when I come back, I play with her a lot and I bring her her favorite foods 00:09:02.788 --> 00:09:06.308 and, you know, I give her lots of little tidbits and we just have so much fun. 00:09:06.778 --> 00:09:08.248 You're like, wait, you lock her? 00:09:08.258 --> 00:09:08.528 What? 00:09:09.718 --> 00:09:10.108 Say what? 00:09:10.348 --> 00:09:15.078 Oh, she loves this game, so we play this game a lot. 00:09:15.088 --> 00:09:18.738 It's like, yeah, but does she ever get to go out and just do what she wants to do? 00:09:19.428 --> 00:09:22.108 It's like, well, no, I mean, you know, God forbid. 00:09:22.718 --> 00:09:26.088 Or, you know, my kid loves me because I pay them a lot. 00:09:26.398 --> 00:09:30.238 They're afraid of spiders, but I keep handing them, you know, 5 bills, and 00:09:30.248 --> 00:09:32.868 it's like, come on, kid, what's it going to take to touch the spider? 00:09:33.818 --> 00:09:35.358 But this is what we do with animals. 00:09:35.358 --> 00:09:36.658 We have transactions. 00:09:37.283 --> 00:09:39.213 And we think they're relationships. 00:09:39.393 --> 00:09:40.623 They are not one and the same. 00:09:42.233 --> 00:09:44.813 Anke: So actually, I'm just thinking it's really an interesting one 00:09:44.813 --> 00:09:50.223 because, uh, when I host an event or class or summit, I always ask people, 00:09:50.223 --> 00:09:53.633 so what would you love, you know, what would you love to learn about? 00:09:53.973 --> 00:09:55.802 You know, questions do you have? 00:09:55.803 --> 00:10:01.973 And by the questions, you can always tell and the questions are always, how can I? 00:10:03.153 --> 00:10:05.823 Make my dog stop doing something. 00:10:07.123 --> 00:10:10.917 So that's usually either, how can I get them to relax? 00:10:11.248 --> 00:10:14.988 You know, when strangers come to the house, when other people, 00:10:15.268 --> 00:10:18.108 when we meet other people with a lot of dogs in the street. 00:10:18.108 --> 00:10:21.458 I mean, there's some really funny, funny ones sometimes what people share. 00:10:21.798 --> 00:10:28.788 It's like, but, um, it's most of the time, how can I, you know, what can 00:10:28.788 --> 00:10:32.993 I do to to get them to stop doing the thing, whatever the thing is. 00:10:33.363 --> 00:10:37.143 So, so what would you say to somebody when they come to you and say, can you 00:10:37.143 --> 00:10:42.653 help me, you know, make like, like, what can I do to get my dog to stop barking at 00:10:42.713 --> 00:10:44.213 other dogs when they come in the street? 00:10:45.943 --> 00:10:50.138 Suzanne: I usually, I usually try to step them into a place where they 00:10:50.138 --> 00:10:55.508 can see that there's a reason for the dog doing it, and it's rarely 00:10:55.568 --> 00:10:58.428 directed personally at them, right? 00:10:58.918 --> 00:11:02.888 Um, and that one's hard because there's, there's woven into our, 00:11:02.998 --> 00:11:07.218 our western culture at least, this understanding that an animal is, is 00:11:07.218 --> 00:11:10.828 flipping himself, or they're, they're trying to be alpha, or they're trying 00:11:10.828 --> 00:11:13.173 to, You know, get away with something. 00:11:13.933 --> 00:11:15.683 And it's like, they're not trying to get away with anything. 00:11:15.693 --> 00:11:20.593 You know, why my, if we make this into a friend, so I use human parallels 00:11:20.593 --> 00:11:24.243 on not a lot, not because I think dogs or horses are people, but just 00:11:24.243 --> 00:11:26.583 that they're both social species. 00:11:27.363 --> 00:11:32.223 And we already know more about, about relationships because 00:11:32.223 --> 00:11:33.403 of our human experience. 00:11:33.403 --> 00:11:36.533 So if, you know, if I was walking down the street with you and it's 00:11:36.533 --> 00:11:40.533 like, well, whenever Annika and I go to the festival, she always yells. 00:11:41.023 --> 00:11:43.523 at, you know, all the men wearing straw hats. 00:11:44.663 --> 00:11:47.033 And, and how do I stop her from doing that? 00:11:47.863 --> 00:11:53.963 A sane response would be, well, is she afraid of men in, in straw hats? 00:11:54.363 --> 00:11:55.533 Like, why would she do that? 00:11:55.543 --> 00:11:56.993 She has to have a reason. 00:11:57.273 --> 00:12:00.583 We would not leap to assuming you were trying to run the world or get 00:12:00.583 --> 00:12:02.333 away with things or embarrass me. 00:12:02.803 --> 00:12:05.113 Um, I would be like, well, why? 00:12:05.843 --> 00:12:09.213 The, the understanding that there's a behavior underneath it. 00:12:09.883 --> 00:12:13.113 And also, are there some warning signs? 00:12:13.578 --> 00:12:17.678 So if we see a big sign, for example, that says Men With Straw Hat Festival, and I 00:12:17.688 --> 00:12:20.128 think yes, I'm going to take Anke to that. 00:12:20.558 --> 00:12:22.988 Because you know how she loves Men With Straw Hats. 00:12:23.568 --> 00:12:27.168 And then I report to my friend, like I took her, and then all she did 00:12:27.168 --> 00:12:28.558 was yell at Men With Straw Hats. 00:12:28.568 --> 00:12:32.088 And my friend would say, but you knew she was going to do that, 00:12:32.098 --> 00:12:33.568 why did you take her there? 00:12:34.153 --> 00:12:39.013 Or the other analogy I always give is, you know, I'm in a car and I, when 00:12:39.013 --> 00:12:42.643 I'm driving 80 miles an hour and the headlights don't work and the brakes 00:12:42.643 --> 00:12:46.383 are failing and the tires are bald and I don't really know the road or 00:12:46.383 --> 00:12:49.133 where I'm going, I crash into trees. 00:12:49.133 --> 00:12:50.713 How do I stop that from happening? 00:12:51.143 --> 00:12:57.253 It's like, well, let's, let's, let's unpack that scenario. 00:12:57.303 --> 00:13:01.313 Um, so maybe there were some things we could have done. 00:13:01.728 --> 00:13:06.108 And so helping them understand that the dog is not just suddenly, from their point 00:13:06.108 --> 00:13:10.208 of view, they see it as he was fine and now he's barking at strangers, right? 00:13:11.258 --> 00:13:13.568 Versus let's back it up. 00:13:13.578 --> 00:13:14.748 How does he look when he's home? 00:13:15.598 --> 00:13:20.228 Where does he go from he doesn't do that at home to he does it here? 00:13:20.958 --> 00:13:23.588 Okay, somewhere between here and there he's making the change. 00:13:23.588 --> 00:13:24.608 What does that look like? 00:13:25.718 --> 00:13:30.108 Getting them to to back up and say there's a reason for the behavior. 00:13:30.758 --> 00:13:31.968 It could just be boredom. 00:13:32.523 --> 00:13:34.053 It could be because they're afraid. 00:13:34.573 --> 00:13:37.793 It could be because they're so excited by men in straw hats because that 00:13:37.793 --> 00:13:41.733 looks just like your your dad and you haven't seen him in years and he's been 00:13:41.733 --> 00:13:45.443 dead for 20 years and you're just so excited oh my god that could be my dad. 00:13:45.483 --> 00:13:47.523 Completely irrational he's dead but okay. 00:13:47.983 --> 00:13:50.623 Um, there's so many reasons 00:13:52.773 --> 00:13:56.203 and so getting them to step out of the why's this started doing 00:13:56.203 --> 00:13:57.463 this and I want him to stop. 00:13:57.973 --> 00:14:02.133 I was like okay I understand that but to solve it we have 00:14:02.133 --> 00:14:03.823 to figure out what's happening. 00:14:04.638 --> 00:14:07.338 You know, why did you crash, you know, into the tree? 00:14:07.348 --> 00:14:10.288 It's rarely because a tree sprouted up in front of your car. 00:14:11.138 --> 00:14:11.938 Very rare. 00:14:13.708 --> 00:14:15.208 Anke: As trees sometimes do, right? 00:14:15.648 --> 00:14:15.948 Suzanne: Yeah. 00:14:16.288 --> 00:14:18.978 Yeah, you know, this oak tree just, boom, right there. 00:14:18.998 --> 00:14:19.968 Never saw it coming. 00:14:20.388 --> 00:14:20.718 Uh huh. 00:14:20.718 --> 00:14:24.588 Anke: Yeah, I love, I love the, the approach with curiosity. 00:14:24.588 --> 00:14:29.798 It feels to me there's curiosity and like with a nose for problem solving. 00:14:30.238 --> 00:14:34.778 Like, let's just sort of unpack what's going on and try and figure out what's. 00:14:35.213 --> 00:14:37.513 What's happening and say, well, okay, does this happen? 00:14:37.563 --> 00:14:41.913 And in the same, maybe the same scenario or not, is it other hats 00:14:41.913 --> 00:14:46.193 as well or just, you know, so it's like trying to figure out. 00:14:46.868 --> 00:14:50.298 What's actually going on that makes, that makes so much sense. 00:14:50.798 --> 00:14:55.678 Suzanne: And sometimes you can't figure it out because we don't see things, you 00:14:55.678 --> 00:15:00.068 know, it's, it's like the common report is, you know, he went to the window and he 00:15:00.068 --> 00:15:02.678 was barking and there was nothing there. 00:15:02.688 --> 00:15:05.458 And I'm like, you need to finish the sentence with, there was 00:15:05.548 --> 00:15:08.208 nothing there that I could perceive. 00:15:09.128 --> 00:15:09.618 So. 00:15:09.908 --> 00:15:16.248 Considering how high they can hear and how low they can hear, dogs must think, I, I 00:15:16.248 --> 00:15:19.158 do love her, but she's just not terrible. 00:15:19.158 --> 00:15:21.273 She doesn't even think sometimes. 00:15:21.273 --> 00:15:25.638 Or saying, she couldn't even hear that, like, she doesn't even smell anything. 00:15:25.998 --> 00:15:26.688 Um. 00:15:26.988 --> 00:15:30.588 And, you know, the same way we sometimes wonder, like, how did you not see that? 00:15:30.598 --> 00:15:32.648 And the guy's like, because I don't see the way you do. 00:15:33.448 --> 00:15:35.778 You know, I don't see as acutely as you do. 00:15:35.778 --> 00:15:37.378 I don't see as many details. 00:15:37.428 --> 00:15:41.758 My vision is not as, um, refined as a primate's vision. 00:15:42.118 --> 00:15:45.818 But man, their ability to hear and smell is phenomenal. 00:15:46.568 --> 00:15:53.388 So they must think, all right, you know, okay, poor little misguided puppy. 00:15:53.388 --> 00:15:56.518 You're, you mean well, but you're not too bright, are you? 00:15:57.978 --> 00:15:59.288 That's actually an interesting 00:15:59.288 --> 00:16:02.708 Anke: one, because I can totally, actually, I have a, I have a Spanish 00:16:02.708 --> 00:16:04.617 master who's actually also right there. 00:16:04.617 --> 00:16:06.276 Um, and she will do that. 00:16:06.276 --> 00:16:09.768 Like she will go out in the yard and then she'll look quite, you 00:16:09.768 --> 00:16:11.548 know, she takes her work seriously. 00:16:11.578 --> 00:16:13.758 So she will go out, especially in the evening. 00:16:14.108 --> 00:16:14.268 Right. 00:16:14.268 --> 00:16:17.037 And she'll go and, and then she will market stuff. 00:16:17.038 --> 00:16:17.268 Right. 00:16:17.308 --> 00:16:23.068 And, and so sometimes you go like, And you wonder, like, if we just 00:16:23.118 --> 00:16:27.108 continue playing that, if she, if I feel like, what are you barking at? 00:16:27.108 --> 00:16:28.428 I can't see anything. 00:16:28.648 --> 00:16:32.588 And I must say, I do make a point to acknowledge, you 00:16:32.588 --> 00:16:36.928 know, hey, you're helping, I'm checking, we're good, you know. 00:16:37.258 --> 00:16:40.168 But still, she would probably think, well, but you don't. 00:16:41.058 --> 00:16:46.348 And I think it's like, I mean, how could, like, they're actually doing incredibly 00:16:46.348 --> 00:16:47.688 well to even trust us with stuff. 00:16:48.918 --> 00:16:52.458 Suzanne: Yeah, yeah, I think they, they, they have conversations amongst themselves 00:16:52.458 --> 00:16:56.258 about the, um, two leggeds that, you know, sometimes they're not all that bright. 00:16:56.408 --> 00:16:57.598 Sometimes they're magical. 00:16:57.658 --> 00:17:00.918 I mean, sometimes they do stuff with those thumbs that is pretty awesome, 00:17:01.278 --> 00:17:03.178 but sometimes they're just not bright. 00:17:03.378 --> 00:17:08.768 So I would tell people, I remember, I would say, like, even if you 00:17:08.768 --> 00:17:13.438 can't quite perceive it, and I remember when I was a kid, you know 00:17:13.438 --> 00:17:16.648 the ice and slush that builds up under a car in the winter, right? 00:17:16.978 --> 00:17:18.058 And it would fall off. 00:17:19.278 --> 00:17:23.728 Whatever reason, in first grade I decided these were dinosaur eggs. 00:17:25.143 --> 00:17:29.123 And so I bring them to my mother and I find them and I was like, look at this. 00:17:29.193 --> 00:17:29.853 Oh my God. 00:17:29.853 --> 00:17:30.413 I believe. 00:17:31.073 --> 00:17:32.223 God bless my mother. 00:17:32.643 --> 00:17:34.053 She didn't say, don't be stupid. 00:17:34.323 --> 00:17:37.713 That's just ice and mud and some grease from the bottom of a car. 00:17:38.013 --> 00:17:39.443 And it's just going to melt. 00:17:40.413 --> 00:17:42.373 She's like, well, what do you think would happen? 00:17:42.383 --> 00:17:45.313 I was like, I think I'm going to keep them and hatch them. 00:17:45.823 --> 00:17:50.603 Um, you know, and so I, you know, I took my sister's little Barbie doll 00:17:50.603 --> 00:17:54.083 case, threw out all the dolls, who needs those, and put in my, my thing. 00:17:54.083 --> 00:17:55.953 And I said, I'm taking them for show and tell. 00:17:56.403 --> 00:18:00.463 And she's like, And she said later, she's like, I don't know how to tell this, 00:18:00.503 --> 00:18:03.523 like, don't be stupid, they're just gonna melt and it's just gonna be a giant mess. 00:18:03.523 --> 00:18:05.563 She's like, are you sure that's what you want to do? 00:18:05.563 --> 00:18:06.483 I was like, yes. 00:18:07.033 --> 00:18:10.703 Um, and so, you know, the real experience, of course, showed me 00:18:11.133 --> 00:18:14.843 that, that it was not a dinosaur egg. 00:18:15.093 --> 00:18:16.473 It did melt by show and tell. 00:18:16.473 --> 00:18:18.483 I just had a giant puddle and the teacher was annoyed. 00:18:19.003 --> 00:18:21.643 And I was like, hmm, okay, that was a theory that didn't work out. 00:18:23.443 --> 00:18:23.813 Exactly! 00:18:24.233 --> 00:18:28.593 I'm like, all right, that was not what I thought it was, note to self. 00:18:29.153 --> 00:18:33.043 But I have taken that same approach. 00:18:33.413 --> 00:18:33.993 to animals. 00:18:34.003 --> 00:18:41.583 So when I can't see or smell or hear what they're perceiving, I do them the courtesy 00:18:42.513 --> 00:18:44.533 of going along with the dinosaur egg. 00:18:44.543 --> 00:18:49.203 It's like, oh, so at one point we had a bear in the neighborhood and so I was 00:18:49.203 --> 00:18:54.833 walking my pony and all of a sudden the pony's like, she stops and she's on full 00:18:54.973 --> 00:18:56.383 alert and she's looking into the woods. 00:18:56.383 --> 00:18:57.833 And it was like dusk. 00:18:57.863 --> 00:18:59.273 I can't see. 00:19:00.018 --> 00:19:03.628 Like, if there's a black bear in the dark woods, until he 00:19:03.628 --> 00:19:04.728 shows up, I'm not gonna see it. 00:19:05.798 --> 00:19:08.918 So I could have just said, like, stop it, we're walking, let's go, 00:19:08.948 --> 00:19:11.758 leave it, don't worry about it, blah blah blah, there's nothing there. 00:19:12.028 --> 00:19:12.708 But I didn't. 00:19:12.878 --> 00:19:15.578 So I oriented myself, and I was like, 00:19:18.108 --> 00:19:21.248 and I tuned into the same direction she did, and I got as 00:19:21.318 --> 00:19:24.128 intense, and we both listened. 00:19:25.643 --> 00:19:27.953 I had no idea what the hell I was listening to. 00:19:28.373 --> 00:19:30.493 I couldn't smell what she was smelling. 00:19:30.953 --> 00:19:33.393 And I was hoping she wasn't going to hit the panic of, You 00:19:33.393 --> 00:19:34.353 know what we should do now? 00:19:34.563 --> 00:19:35.743 We should run away really fast! 00:19:35.973 --> 00:19:37.933 Because I wasn't going to be able to keep up with her, right? 00:19:39.113 --> 00:19:41.393 So I was just like, Hmm, what do you think? 00:19:41.393 --> 00:19:43.273 And I'd look at her and she'd look at me and then we'd go 00:19:43.273 --> 00:19:44.653 back to looking at the woods. 00:19:45.013 --> 00:19:47.273 She had something she was actually focused on. 00:19:48.373 --> 00:19:49.073 I did not. 00:19:50.013 --> 00:19:51.773 I was like, Okay, you let me know. 00:19:52.023 --> 00:19:54.363 You think we can, are we safe and we can walk away? 00:19:54.363 --> 00:19:55.043 She's like, yeah. 00:19:57.103 --> 00:20:00.903 And so I have told people for years now, go join the dog. 00:20:01.353 --> 00:20:06.893 So tonight when you go out and your, your master's out there saying hmm, go out, 00:20:06.903 --> 00:20:12.513 join her, orient yourself in the same way, give it your full attention, sniff the 00:20:12.513 --> 00:20:18.313 air, and I've had people say like, one lady with a beagle, and what she said was, 00:20:18.363 --> 00:20:20.813 as you're saying, How do I get at night? 00:20:20.813 --> 00:20:21.593 He doesn't want to come out. 00:20:21.613 --> 00:20:22.533 He just sits in the yard. 00:20:22.533 --> 00:20:23.393 He won't come back in. 00:20:23.423 --> 00:20:24.903 He's got his nose in the air. 00:20:25.463 --> 00:20:27.143 And how do I make him get in the house? 00:20:27.163 --> 00:20:29.033 I'm like, well, why don't you go out and join him? 00:20:29.203 --> 00:20:30.513 There's a reason he's sitting out there. 00:20:30.903 --> 00:20:34.063 And she goes, oh, so I should just go out in the backyard and stand next to my 00:20:34.063 --> 00:20:35.883 dog and sniff the air like I'm a beagle. 00:20:35.893 --> 00:20:36.413 I'm like, yep. 00:20:37.838 --> 00:20:39.138 Um, I'm going to do that. 00:20:39.458 --> 00:20:40.204 I'm going to 00:20:40.204 --> 00:20:44.248 Anke: let you know because I can talk like when, because when you just described 00:20:44.248 --> 00:20:51.968 it's like, Oh, that's like, that would be the, the essence of relationship building. 00:20:52.668 --> 00:20:56.628 It's like, you know, like appreciating them enough to take. 00:20:56.958 --> 00:21:01.568 their experience, seriously, and not just the Zoom, just because I can't 00:21:01.568 --> 00:21:02.858 smell it, there's nothing there. 00:21:03.258 --> 00:21:04.828 It's like, I was like, when you were talking, I was like, 00:21:04.878 --> 00:21:06.418 oh, I'm so gonna do that. 00:21:07.938 --> 00:21:09.748 Suzanne: And that's, that's what this woman did. 00:21:09.748 --> 00:21:14.078 So she was just like in her sixties and you know, she lived in, in suburb, 00:21:14.138 --> 00:21:19.018 uh, suburban Chicago and she's like, fine, I'm going to give that a try. 00:21:19.038 --> 00:21:22.853 And then next day she came into the seminar and I said, She goes, well, 00:21:22.853 --> 00:21:25.883 he's out there doing his thing, just, you know, his nose in the air. 00:21:25.883 --> 00:21:27.613 And I called him and he wouldn't come. 00:21:27.923 --> 00:21:29.543 Cause she's like, I offer him treats. 00:21:29.543 --> 00:21:31.723 I'm like, that's not as valuable to him as smelling. 00:21:31.843 --> 00:21:36.913 Like, don't assume chicken and cheese are the answer to life. 00:21:37.293 --> 00:21:39.103 They're not the Holy Grail for dogs. 00:21:39.553 --> 00:21:43.693 Um, and so she said, so I went, all right, I said, I'd try it. 00:21:43.693 --> 00:21:47.528 So I walked out there and I stood next to him and, I sniffed, and if he moved his 00:21:47.528 --> 00:21:49.228 head in a certain direction, I did it too. 00:21:49.228 --> 00:21:52.788 And then I looked at him, he looked at me, and I said, can you come in now? 00:21:52.788 --> 00:21:53.718 And the dog said, sure. 00:21:54.958 --> 00:21:59.038 And she just, she just was astonished. 00:21:59.368 --> 00:22:00.128 Like, it worked. 00:22:00.128 --> 00:22:04.453 And like, because you gave him the respect of, I'm going to come 00:22:04.453 --> 00:22:07.833 share the experience you're having and now can you come with me? 00:22:08.403 --> 00:22:12.003 Um, and another woman did it with cats because lots and lots of feral cats 00:22:12.013 --> 00:22:14.073 she lived in outside of San Francisco. 00:22:14.583 --> 00:22:17.483 And she goes, it's just, I hate taking my dog for a walk because 00:22:17.483 --> 00:22:19.043 there's so many feral cats. 00:22:19.343 --> 00:22:20.343 They're under the cars. 00:22:20.353 --> 00:22:25.143 He's just hysterical, you know, and he's just disconnects and nothing I do works. 00:22:25.973 --> 00:22:27.413 I'm like, well, you're not going to get rid of the cats. 00:22:27.413 --> 00:22:29.883 So you might as well just share the, the experience. 00:22:29.903 --> 00:22:33.533 It's like, oh, so I should get down and look under the cars with him. 00:22:33.613 --> 00:22:34.803 I was like, Try it. 00:22:35.533 --> 00:22:37.073 And it just blew her mind. 00:22:37.073 --> 00:22:39.363 So he's got his nose stuck under a can. 00:22:39.363 --> 00:22:40.303 She gets down. 00:22:40.683 --> 00:22:43.833 She looks and sure enough, there's a cat by the front tire. 00:22:44.423 --> 00:22:46.313 And she's like, so there's a cat. 00:22:46.363 --> 00:22:49.603 And the dog looks at her like, right, like I've been trying to tell you. 00:22:49.793 --> 00:22:50.953 You see it too, right? 00:22:51.473 --> 00:22:53.413 She's like, yeah, that is a cat. 00:22:53.423 --> 00:22:53.963 Good job. 00:22:54.253 --> 00:22:54.983 Can we go on now? 00:22:55.043 --> 00:22:55.853 The dog's like, okay. 00:22:55.853 --> 00:22:57.721 He's like, what the hell? 00:22:57.721 --> 00:23:05.953 I was like, it's very much like that, that wonderful bit in, in The Little Prince. 00:23:06.413 --> 00:23:09.193 Where he's drawing an elephant inside a snake, right? 00:23:09.193 --> 00:23:12.023 But he shows it to someone and the adults think it's a hat. 00:23:15.423 --> 00:23:19.153 But the author's like, Oh no, that's clearly, you know, this 00:23:19.413 --> 00:23:20.833 python that swallowed a snake. 00:23:21.603 --> 00:23:24.583 But you have to have the courtesy of not assuming your 00:23:24.583 --> 00:23:27.943 perception is it, but sharing it. 00:23:27.943 --> 00:23:30.883 So the animal's like, Oh, you're a little brighter than I thought. 00:23:30.893 --> 00:23:31.527 You do. 00:23:31.918 --> 00:23:32.728 Hear that, right? 00:23:32.978 --> 00:23:34.548 Because there's not a test. 00:23:34.938 --> 00:23:37.338 They're not going to say prove that you heard what I heard. 00:23:38.328 --> 00:23:43.868 If your body language says, I'm also having this moment, they believe you. 00:23:44.908 --> 00:23:49.238 The one thing animals don't know about is, is they don't know how to lie. 00:23:49.288 --> 00:23:50.748 They know that people lie. 00:23:52.393 --> 00:23:54.363 Anke: I would say you can't trick a dog, right? 00:23:55.373 --> 00:23:56.103 Well, you can, 00:23:56.123 --> 00:23:56.743 Suzanne: but once. 00:23:58.603 --> 00:24:01.273 Anke: Once, oh, yeah, no, I tried that. 00:24:01.593 --> 00:24:02.013 Mrs. 00:24:02.573 --> 00:24:04.543 Mastiff here, it was hilarious. 00:24:04.543 --> 00:24:08.553 Like, she got into the bedroom and I wanted her to come out. 00:24:08.883 --> 00:24:14.983 And one day I tried, like I just sort of kind of like fiddled with the bag 00:24:15.023 --> 00:24:19.113 of something in the kitchen and she was there, right, you know, and I got a treat. 00:24:19.423 --> 00:24:22.183 I gave her something and closed the bedroom door. 00:24:22.423 --> 00:24:28.093 The next day she didn't react to that, so I kind of came closer with the treat. 00:24:28.323 --> 00:24:29.673 She came out, got the treat. 00:24:29.903 --> 00:24:33.013 The third day she stayed in there, looked at me, yeah. 00:24:33.303 --> 00:24:34.803 You know, I've got juice sussed out, right? 00:24:36.463 --> 00:24:40.561 She wasn't having it, like, she did not fall for anything more than once. 00:24:40.561 --> 00:24:45.359 Suzanne: And we, and we do, we teach them that we will lie to them, instead of, 00:24:45.359 --> 00:24:47.458 so I would use the opposite approach. 00:24:47.458 --> 00:24:51.655 We have a big container, I often use cat kibble because it's little and 00:24:51.655 --> 00:24:54.954 it really smells strong because cats have stronger taste preferences, and 00:24:54.954 --> 00:24:57.352 it just makes noise when I shake it. 00:24:58.353 --> 00:25:02.593 So it's just a, it's just a conditioned response, no more than like, you 00:25:02.593 --> 00:25:04.903 know, when I was a kid, the ice cream man, when he came to the 00:25:04.903 --> 00:25:08.053 neighborhood, we'd hear that bell, we're like, Oh, I gotta run home, get 00:25:08.113 --> 00:25:09.623 my money so I can get an ice cream. 00:25:10.183 --> 00:25:13.363 And so for the dogs, it's just like that, that shake is a 00:25:13.373 --> 00:25:15.923 promise that I will feed you. 00:25:16.013 --> 00:25:20.263 You don't have to come, but I'm asking you to, and I'm promising you that, 00:25:20.263 --> 00:25:22.473 and I, I don't use it to lie to them. 00:25:23.133 --> 00:25:28.253 You know, um, but I've had animals that people had lied to them. 00:25:28.253 --> 00:25:30.423 So they're like, no, no, no, I know this trick. 00:25:30.833 --> 00:25:36.383 This trick is all sweetness and light until, um, so a couple, a couple of 00:25:36.383 --> 00:25:39.583 animals in my barn I got when they were older and people had lied to them. 00:25:39.583 --> 00:25:41.813 One of our little donkeys, her daughter. 00:25:42.498 --> 00:25:46.198 Her daughter, if you told Bliss that people would lie to you and hurt you and 00:25:46.208 --> 00:25:51.238 trick you, she would look at you like, that's some kind of silly fairy tale. 00:25:51.238 --> 00:25:52.868 No one would do that to a donkey. 00:25:53.258 --> 00:25:55.488 Her mother's like, yes, they do. 00:25:56.048 --> 00:26:01.058 Um, but most of the animals here would say like, that's silly. 00:26:01.508 --> 00:26:04.498 No one would lie to a dog, like no one would do that to a dog. 00:26:04.978 --> 00:26:07.608 You know, it's, it's the threat we have when our dogs are bad. 00:26:07.608 --> 00:26:10.268 I'm like, don't make me put on one of those dog training movies. 00:26:10.268 --> 00:26:11.268 I will put it on. 00:26:11.268 --> 00:26:13.238 You'll have to see what other dogs have to go through. 00:26:16.878 --> 00:26:22.488 So I'm, I'm glad that the vast majority of the animals that live here, if 00:26:22.488 --> 00:26:25.518 you could actually tell them this is what people do to animals, they 00:26:25.518 --> 00:26:28.608 would think, no, that's not possible. 00:26:28.678 --> 00:26:29.748 That's not possible. 00:26:30.308 --> 00:26:34.508 Um, but yeah, if you've gotten dogs from other sources, they may come with that 00:26:34.538 --> 00:26:40.038 understanding that yeah, food is good, but it's also a little set of handcuffs 00:26:40.038 --> 00:26:41.928 you're about to try to get on me. 00:26:42.503 --> 00:26:45.453 You know, you're, you're trying to trick me. 00:26:45.833 --> 00:26:47.033 You're trying to lie to me. 00:26:47.043 --> 00:26:48.953 This is not an honest interaction. 00:26:49.513 --> 00:26:53.633 And we teach dogs not to trust us, or we teach them to trust 00:26:53.633 --> 00:26:55.403 us, um, one way or the other. 00:26:55.753 --> 00:26:59.063 But sometimes we're not, we're not aware that we're doing it. 00:26:59.083 --> 00:27:00.553 We think we're being kind, right? 00:27:00.823 --> 00:27:03.783 As soon as people use food, they're like, but I'm a positive trainer. 00:27:03.783 --> 00:27:05.773 It's like, Not really. 00:27:05.773 --> 00:27:09.383 I always tell people, go watch that movie Indecent Proposal, you know, where 00:27:09.383 --> 00:27:11.173 Redford says, will you sleep with me? 00:27:11.173 --> 00:27:13.313 And, uh, and she's like, no. 00:27:13.313 --> 00:27:14.993 And he goes, how about for a million dollars? 00:27:14.993 --> 00:27:20.113 And she's like, well, like, all right, somewhere between those two 00:27:20.113 --> 00:27:22.613 price points, zero and a million. 00:27:24.103 --> 00:27:28.713 We have now pressured her into doing something she would not have done, right? 00:27:29.013 --> 00:27:30.423 That she would not have freely done. 00:27:30.423 --> 00:27:34.823 So we always have to be careful when we're, when we're training, or we're 00:27:34.823 --> 00:27:40.173 trying to shape another being's behavior, is that they do have freedom to choose. 00:27:40.533 --> 00:27:44.153 That they're actually, you know, as they say, if there's only one 00:27:44.153 --> 00:27:48.103 right choice, that is called zero degrees of freedom, that we have 00:27:48.103 --> 00:27:51.713 to have multiple degrees of freedom in these interactions with animals. 00:27:52.013 --> 00:27:56.173 And that's at the cutting edge of a lot of the zoo animal training. 00:27:58.243 --> 00:28:00.967 How many degrees of freedom are involved in this choice? 00:28:01.528 --> 00:28:05.108 Because they're acutely aware, especially in a zoo animal, an exotic animal, 00:28:05.508 --> 00:28:11.938 how much they have abrogated the species natural tendencies, the size 00:28:11.938 --> 00:28:16.748 of their territory, their ability to, you know, um, secure their own food. 00:28:16.748 --> 00:28:20.238 They really are at the mercy of the, of the keepers. 00:28:20.658 --> 00:28:23.648 Um, but our dogs, sometimes it's good to remember these are 00:28:23.998 --> 00:28:25.978 happy, well fed hostages too. 00:28:26.408 --> 00:28:27.618 Be very careful about that. 00:28:28.038 --> 00:28:28.448 Anke: Yeah. 00:28:28.528 --> 00:28:29.018 I love that. 00:28:29.078 --> 00:28:29.558 I love that. 00:28:29.738 --> 00:28:31.748 I think you're looking at everything through that lens. 00:28:32.128 --> 00:28:38.598 I'm And giving them that respect to start with, to really try, I mean, even 00:28:38.618 --> 00:28:42.108 if you can try and look at it through there, but obviously we know we don't 00:28:42.118 --> 00:28:46.468 have the same senses, but then to just recognize, you know, if you have your 00:28:46.468 --> 00:28:50.858 nose in the wind, it's because you perceive something I can't, which means 00:28:50.928 --> 00:28:55.593 like You know, I should listen to you and not insist on you listening to me, 00:28:55.593 --> 00:28:57.593 kind of, you know, I just love that. 00:28:57.663 --> 00:29:02.083 Yeah, I think if a relationship is based on that, like, well, yeah, then 00:29:02.143 --> 00:29:06.633 nobody would be surprised if the horse comes with you or the dog comes with 00:29:06.633 --> 00:29:08.553 you because You know, we're the same. 00:29:08.553 --> 00:29:13.713 If we feel really seen and heard, you know, we feel drawn to that other being 00:29:13.753 --> 00:29:19.003 and we trust them a lot more than if you get some, you know, with random 00:29:19.043 --> 00:29:25.103 demands, you know, some person who kind of randomly enforces their, their power. 00:29:26.183 --> 00:29:27.533 It's a whole different ballgame. 00:29:28.253 --> 00:29:31.893 Suzanne: I think these are the, the kind of relationships we're forced into with, 00:29:32.403 --> 00:29:37.093 with humans, um, that we end up with. 00:29:37.463 --> 00:29:39.483 We're forced into it by our neighbors, right? 00:29:40.053 --> 00:29:43.243 We're forced into it by the people that we have to work with because that's 00:29:43.253 --> 00:29:45.683 the, that's our fellow employees. 00:29:46.143 --> 00:29:50.613 Given a choice, if we did not have to worry about paying the bills, 00:29:50.613 --> 00:29:53.363 and we could say, I, I don't want to live next to this person. 00:29:53.643 --> 00:29:57.173 I'm going to pick up my house, and I'm going to put it here 00:29:57.453 --> 00:29:59.363 in this little patch of forest. 00:30:00.058 --> 00:30:05.318 Um, I, I don't want to live next to you, like, so the, the wild animal 00:30:05.328 --> 00:30:10.888 has a lot more freedom to say, hmm, no, I'm not liking this, I'm going 00:30:10.888 --> 00:30:12.348 to go find another place to live. 00:30:12.778 --> 00:30:14.438 I'm going to go find something else to eat. 00:30:14.468 --> 00:30:21.488 I'm going to find different set of conspifics to, to interact with. 00:30:22.248 --> 00:30:28.328 But we lock ourselves as modern men into a lot of conflict that we 00:30:28.328 --> 00:30:30.218 just go through every single day. 00:30:30.708 --> 00:30:33.878 And we, we have these civilized manners that we lay over the top of 00:30:33.878 --> 00:30:37.518 it, but we are not often at peace. 00:30:38.098 --> 00:30:43.408 You know, there's, there's some of the, um, African, uh, tribes that they 00:30:43.408 --> 00:30:46.898 don't believe in democracy because they believe either we all agree. 00:30:47.193 --> 00:30:48.213 Or it's not agreed. 00:30:49.113 --> 00:30:54.343 And I have often thought like, wow, what if that was actually how 00:30:54.343 --> 00:30:58.143 I had to work with animals, that if there was a disagreement, we 00:30:58.143 --> 00:30:59.913 had to find a point of agreement. 00:31:00.373 --> 00:31:05.783 So that as much as possible, I try to actually honor. 00:31:06.308 --> 00:31:10.558 I have to find, not how do I fight more effectively when I'm in an argument 00:31:10.558 --> 00:31:14.538 with an animal, which is what a lot of training is, but it's, can I back 00:31:14.538 --> 00:31:19.968 this conversation down to a point where we have a point of agreement? 00:31:22.013 --> 00:31:23.403 Then I can build from there. 00:31:23.933 --> 00:31:27.903 So a lot of what I do is, well, if you can't do that, how about this? 00:31:27.903 --> 00:31:29.913 And the animal says, no, I'm still, no. 00:31:30.483 --> 00:31:32.233 It's like, okay, how about this? 00:31:32.793 --> 00:31:33.783 How about this? 00:31:34.253 --> 00:31:36.363 Can we at least agree on this? 00:31:38.353 --> 00:31:42.503 And that, that is easier said than done, and it does not mean that, 00:31:42.563 --> 00:31:46.273 um, anyone who's working on the relationship is going to get it right. 00:31:46.303 --> 00:31:49.263 I mean, we practice a lot with our human relationships. 00:31:50.953 --> 00:31:51.973 I mean, that's not easy. 00:31:51.973 --> 00:31:52.483 Anke: So I, 00:31:53.033 --> 00:31:56.873 Suzanne: no, because it's two live beings with their own perspectives 00:31:56.873 --> 00:32:02.393 and goals and moods and how they feel that day and, and you know, what their 00:32:02.398 --> 00:32:04.703 history is and what interests them. 00:32:04.703 --> 00:32:09.053 And you know, I, I don't know what a point of agreement would be if I had someone who 00:32:09.053 --> 00:32:14.063 was like really into fashion and we wanted to discuss like how we got our nails done. 00:32:14.063 --> 00:32:14.483 I'm like. 00:32:14.888 --> 00:32:17.638 You just trim the jagged parts off and you get the dirt out from 00:32:17.638 --> 00:32:19.548 underneath them and our nails are done. 00:32:20.438 --> 00:32:24.848 Well, there you've got your There you go, that's a conversation. 00:32:24.868 --> 00:32:26.068 How do I get the nail out? 00:32:26.078 --> 00:32:28.288 You know, how do I trim the ragged parts off? 00:32:28.328 --> 00:32:29.238 And that's funny. 00:32:30.048 --> 00:32:30.598 Anke: That's hilarious. 00:32:31.018 --> 00:32:36.458 So, so where can people go and find out more about your work and and contact 00:32:36.458 --> 00:32:38.328 you and you know, find out more? 00:32:39.328 --> 00:32:41.388 Suzanne: Well, just go to SuzanneMcClothier. 00:32:41.438 --> 00:32:45.428 com and we have got, man, that's, that's kind of your, 00:32:47.638 --> 00:32:48.958 there's a lot of stuff there. 00:32:48.998 --> 00:32:49.628 And she's very 00:32:49.628 --> 00:32:51.268 Anke: poetic, like just the names. 00:32:51.268 --> 00:32:52.518 I love how you name stuff. 00:32:53.388 --> 00:32:55.338 Like do check, do check her out. 00:32:55.428 --> 00:32:58.558 Please do yourself a favor, go to the, go to the website. 00:32:58.558 --> 00:33:01.738 If you're listening to this on the podcast and the show notes, if you're 00:33:01.748 --> 00:33:04.607 seeing it on the newsletter, it's kind of above or below the video. 00:33:04.838 --> 00:33:08.158 So, yeah, do yourself a favor, you, you'll love it. 00:33:08.358 --> 00:33:11.628 She's got plenty of brilliant stuff there, so thank you so much. 00:33:11.948 --> 00:33:13.698 I could listen to you for ages. 00:33:14.018 --> 00:33:15.008 So good, so good. 00:33:15.008 --> 00:33:15.488 Thank you. 00:33:16.088 --> 00:33:17.228 Suzanne: Great conversation. 00:33:17.228 --> 00:33:18.038 Really enjoyed it. 00:33:19.898 --> 00:33:21.128 Thanks so much for listening. 00:33:21.648 --> 00:33:25.948 If you enjoyed the episode, don't forget to subscribe, and leave a review so 00:33:26.048 --> 00:33:27.828 other dog lovers can find the show. 00:33:28.618 --> 00:33:32.108 If you haven't already, head over to soul touched by dogs. 00:33:32.538 --> 00:33:38.108 com and sign up for weekly doggy cuteness tips, recommendations, and personal 00:33:38.208 --> 00:33:40.578 stories to warm your dog loving heart. 00:33:40.578 --> 00:33:44.308 And if you know a pawsome human you think I should interview, 00:33:44.728 --> 00:33:45.868 I'd love an introduction. 00:33:46.348 --> 00:33:48.178 Email me at Anke. 00:33:48.448 --> 00:33:52.683 That's A N k E at Soul touched by dogs.com.