Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs Podcast, the show for dog lovers who
see dogs not as toys or tools, but wise souls worth our respect and care.
I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host.
I talk to poor some humans, people who do great work for dogs and their people.
So come and join us for today's conversation.
Anke: Hello and welcome, Suzanne.
We've just been having the most delightful conversation and I
just, I'm really excited to include listeners into it, into the rest of it.
So, why don't we start, let people know where you're based and
what's your business with dogs?
Suzanne: All right, so I am in currently snowy upstate New York.
As late in the season as it is, we just had a beautiful five inches of snow
and a little bit more coming today.
So upstate New York, we always, we always make that distinction.
It's upstate New York.
So people don't think that we're talking about Manhattan.
So this is farm country.
Um, it's all dairy country and it's, set along the Mohawk River.
Beautiful quiet place to And we've got a working farm up here with cows,
horses, donkeys, pigs, chickens, cats, parrots, lots of dogs, of
course, and Scottish Highland cattle.
So, we, um, stay busy, let's say that, and you might hear the parrots join us, and
if so, I apologize, but we've gotta go.
Umbrella Cockatoo, an Amazon, and a Scarlet Macaw.
And, um, when they decide to join us and help, it can get a little noisy.
So hopefully all will be well.
Anke: That's, that's perfect.
You know, and the thing is like, this is a doggy podcast.
You know, animals, like, you know, yeah, I can't, I couldn't possibly say, no, no,
we don't want the birds to chirp, right?
No, no.
Or, you know, like any animal is always welcome for sure.
Suzanne: And I went to a radio interview and I wasn't really listening and the
Amazon was doing his little happy thing in the background and finally the reporter
said, do you need to go take care of that?
Is something wrong?
And I was like, no, no, everything seems to be fine.
You know, finally she said, but your baby, I was like, my baby, I was like,
you know, my baby's 37 years old.
And And, um, and then I got annoyed because I thought, well, if that
was my baby crying, don't you think I would go take care of it?
Like, you know, that you would have to remind me maybe baby's crying.
I was like, no, that's, that's my parrot.
She's like, okay.
So you asked, what do I do as dogs?
So I am a full time professional trainer.
And at this point, I don't have a training school per se anymore, but
I train trainers, and then I teach educational courses online and, uh,
before COVID hit, I traveled all over the world teaching in person seminars
and working with people, um, and trying to Trying to produce materials that help
people find better ways to build really healthy relationships with their dogs.
So it's not, here's how to make a perfect sit, or here's how to have, you
know, high scoring healing, um, but it really goes to the foundation of this
interaction between you and an animal.
How, how do we make that satisfying and fair for both ends?
Anke: I love that.
I think, I mean, it's, it's what I stumbled across you online.
I was like, Oh my God, like, I just love the focus on the relationship because
I feel like without that, everything else is sort of fragile on the surface.
Suzanne: That is a really, really good word.
It's fragile.
And, and so when people bring me problems, what I'm looking for
is I go to the foundation level.
I don't, I don't want as a trainer, I've been in the business a very long time.
I'm 65 and I've been a professional with animals since 1977.
So a long time.
And I know the band aids, my dog's doing this.
How do I make him not do that?
How do I get him to do this?
But I kept finding that as long as I stayed on that very fragile, superficial
level, it was like the, you know, they call it the whack a mole game, right?
So you hit down one thing and it pops up someplace else.
And I started to think this is not fixing anything.
We're just covering this up, but we need to go to the foundation and fix that.
So everything I do is, has increasingly, the older I get gone deeper and
deeper to build a solid foundation.
So that we're not, we're not building something that's fragile, we're building
something that's strong that can withstand what life is going to hand everybody.
Um, and then on top of them, we decide what we want to build on that foundation.
Anke: Love that.
So how would you describe, if I have a really strong, grounded relationship
with my dog, what does that look like?
Suzanne: I think it's, it's a two way street, first of all.
We spend a lot of time talking, you know, it's, it's, it's the quote from, you
know, Winnie the Pooh, you know, a lot of people talk to animals, but very few
listen, um, so that a lot of training is about, Hey dog, Hey horse, I'm going
to, I'm going to tell you what you need to know and what you need to do and what
you should do and what you shouldn't do.
For me, a relationship is number one.
I'm intensely curious about that other being, whether that's my
husband or a new friend or, uh, A horse I just met or yeah, uh, you
know, the, the dog laying at my feet.
I'm intensely curious about who are you?
How do you process the world?
How do you see the world?
What do you like to do?
You know, how in our interactions.
What's, what's good for you?
So it's a two way street of great curiosity.
The animal's not interested in me.
We don't have a relationship.
Um, but then I have to also, it, it's kind of the old joke, I know that you
know that I know that you know that I know that you know that feedback loop has
to be clean and respectful so that if I said something to you and you're like,
well, I don't actually find that funny.
And I'm like, well, too bad.
I think it's a star.
Um, we probably wouldn't have much of a relationship.
There's, we do this with humans all the time, where we actually
communicate to someone like, that's not funny for me, right?
I don't find that, I don't feel safe here.
And we're like, too bad, suck it up, buttercup.
And when we do that with animals, we have the power to do that with
animals, because we control their being.
We can control their food, where they go, how much freedom they have.
We can even deprive them of water if we want.
We tell them when they can go to the bathroom.
Um, and if I did that to a human, that would be called taking someone hostage.
And we know what happens if you take someone hostage.
They, they can learn to love you because they're so dependent on you.
But I don't want that.
So a relationship for me that's healthy, I is not dependent on, I
will give you your needs and I will deprive you if you don't comply.
Your needs will be met.
I am not dependent on equipment to hold you to me.
You know, if I said, I've got a friend and I lock her in the basement, cause
you know, she might talk to someone else.
Um, but she's really, she's really a very cool friend.
Um, there's an article on my website called Of Hostages and Relationships.
Cause some of the training says that.
Don't, don't let your dog talk to other people.
Never let anything good come from someone else.
I'm like, why?
That's like saying no one can make my husband laugh or, you know, take him
out and have a nice outing with him.
Cause then he'll come home and he won't want me.
It's like, it's insane.
Um, so it has to be a two way street for sure, with respect for who they are.
And, and in this unbalanced human animal situation, We have to be cognizant
of how much power we have in that relationship to control their lives.
And that is never to be taken, uh, lightly by any means.
Anke: That's so true.
I mean, you just make me laugh.
Like when you take this, these scenarios that are so common in the, you know, human
dog and you take that into, you do that to a friend, it's like, oh, it just like
really shows so beautifully how Yeah.
Suzanne: And same thing with, you know, it's like using, whether we're
using punishment or we're using food rewards, you know, or toys.
If someone said, Oh yeah, my wife loves me.
You know, I lock her in the, in the closet when I leave home.
But when I come back, I play with her a lot and I bring her her favorite foods
and, you know, I give her lots of little tidbits and we just have so much fun.
You're like, wait, you lock her?
What?
Say what?
Oh, she loves this game, so we play this game a lot.
It's like, yeah, but does she ever get to go out and just do what she wants to do?
It's like, well, no, I mean, you know, God forbid.
Or, you know, my kid loves me because I pay them a lot.
They're afraid of spiders, but I keep handing them, you know, 5 bills, and
it's like, come on, kid, what's it going to take to touch the spider?
But this is what we do with animals.
We have transactions.
And we think they're relationships.
They are not one and the same.
Anke: So actually, I'm just thinking it's really an interesting one
because, uh, when I host an event or class or summit, I always ask people,
so what would you love, you know, what would you love to learn about?
You know, questions do you have?
And by the questions, you can always tell and the questions are always, how can I?
Make my dog stop doing something.
So that's usually either, how can I get them to relax?
You know, when strangers come to the house, when other people,
when we meet other people with a lot of dogs in the street.
I mean, there's some really funny, funny ones sometimes what people share.
It's like, but, um, it's most of the time, how can I, you know, what can
I do to to get them to stop doing the thing, whatever the thing is.
So, so what would you say to somebody when they come to you and say, can you
help me, you know, make like, like, what can I do to get my dog to stop barking at
other dogs when they come in the street?
Suzanne: I usually, I usually try to step them into a place where they
can see that there's a reason for the dog doing it, and it's rarely
directed personally at them, right?
Um, and that one's hard because there's, there's woven into our,
our western culture at least, this understanding that an animal is, is
flipping himself, or they're, they're trying to be alpha, or they're trying
to, You know, get away with something.
And it's like, they're not trying to get away with anything.
You know, why my, if we make this into a friend, so I use human parallels
on not a lot, not because I think dogs or horses are people, but just
that they're both social species.
And we already know more about, about relationships because
of our human experience.
So if, you know, if I was walking down the street with you and it's
like, well, whenever Annika and I go to the festival, she always yells.
at, you know, all the men wearing straw hats.
And, and how do I stop her from doing that?
A sane response would be, well, is she afraid of men in, in straw hats?
Like, why would she do that?
She has to have a reason.
We would not leap to assuming you were trying to run the world or get
away with things or embarrass me.
Um, I would be like, well, why?
The, the understanding that there's a behavior underneath it.
And also, are there some warning signs?
So if we see a big sign, for example, that says Men With Straw Hat Festival, and I
think yes, I'm going to take Anke to that.
Because you know how she loves Men With Straw Hats.
And then I report to my friend, like I took her, and then all she did
was yell at Men With Straw Hats.
And my friend would say, but you knew she was going to do that,
why did you take her there?
Or the other analogy I always give is, you know, I'm in a car and I, when
I'm driving 80 miles an hour and the headlights don't work and the brakes
are failing and the tires are bald and I don't really know the road or
where I'm going, I crash into trees.
How do I stop that from happening?
It's like, well, let's, let's, let's unpack that scenario.
Um, so maybe there were some things we could have done.
And so helping them understand that the dog is not just suddenly, from their point
of view, they see it as he was fine and now he's barking at strangers, right?
Versus let's back it up.
How does he look when he's home?
Where does he go from he doesn't do that at home to he does it here?
Okay, somewhere between here and there he's making the change.
What does that look like?
Getting them to to back up and say there's a reason for the behavior.
It could just be boredom.
It could be because they're afraid.
It could be because they're so excited by men in straw hats because that
looks just like your your dad and you haven't seen him in years and he's been
dead for 20 years and you're just so excited oh my god that could be my dad.
Completely irrational he's dead but okay.
Um, there's so many reasons
and so getting them to step out of the why's this started doing
this and I want him to stop.
I was like okay I understand that but to solve it we have
to figure out what's happening.
You know, why did you crash, you know, into the tree?
It's rarely because a tree sprouted up in front of your car.
Very rare.
Anke: As trees sometimes do, right?
Suzanne: Yeah.
Yeah, you know, this oak tree just, boom, right there.
Never saw it coming.
Uh huh.
Anke: Yeah, I love, I love the, the approach with curiosity.
It feels to me there's curiosity and like with a nose for problem solving.
Like, let's just sort of unpack what's going on and try and figure out what's.
What's happening and say, well, okay, does this happen?
And in the same, maybe the same scenario or not, is it other hats
as well or just, you know, so it's like trying to figure out.
What's actually going on that makes, that makes so much sense.
Suzanne: And sometimes you can't figure it out because we don't see things, you
know, it's, it's like the common report is, you know, he went to the window and he
was barking and there was nothing there.
And I'm like, you need to finish the sentence with, there was
nothing there that I could perceive.
So.
Considering how high they can hear and how low they can hear, dogs must think, I, I
do love her, but she's just not terrible.
She doesn't even think sometimes.
Or saying, she couldn't even hear that, like, she doesn't even smell anything.
Um.
And, you know, the same way we sometimes wonder, like, how did you not see that?
And the guy's like, because I don't see the way you do.
You know, I don't see as acutely as you do.
I don't see as many details.
My vision is not as, um, refined as a primate's vision.
But man, their ability to hear and smell is phenomenal.
So they must think, all right, you know, okay, poor little misguided puppy.
You're, you mean well, but you're not too bright, are you?
That's actually an interesting
Anke: one, because I can totally, actually, I have a, I have a Spanish
master who's actually also right there.
Um, and she will do that.
Like she will go out in the yard and then she'll look quite, you
know, she takes her work seriously.
So she will go out, especially in the evening.
Right.
And she'll go and, and then she will market stuff.
Right.
And, and so sometimes you go like, And you wonder, like, if we just
continue playing that, if she, if I feel like, what are you barking at?
I can't see anything.
And I must say, I do make a point to acknowledge, you
know, hey, you're helping, I'm checking, we're good, you know.
But still, she would probably think, well, but you don't.
And I think it's like, I mean, how could, like, they're actually doing incredibly
well to even trust us with stuff.
Suzanne: Yeah, yeah, I think they, they, they have conversations amongst themselves
about the, um, two leggeds that, you know, sometimes they're not all that bright.
Sometimes they're magical.
I mean, sometimes they do stuff with those thumbs that is pretty awesome,
but sometimes they're just not bright.
So I would tell people, I remember, I would say, like, even if you
can't quite perceive it, and I remember when I was a kid, you know
the ice and slush that builds up under a car in the winter, right?
And it would fall off.
Whatever reason, in first grade I decided these were dinosaur eggs.
And so I bring them to my mother and I find them and I was like, look at this.
Oh my God.
I believe.
God bless my mother.
She didn't say, don't be stupid.
That's just ice and mud and some grease from the bottom of a car.
And it's just going to melt.
She's like, well, what do you think would happen?
I was like, I think I'm going to keep them and hatch them.
Um, you know, and so I, you know, I took my sister's little Barbie doll
case, threw out all the dolls, who needs those, and put in my, my thing.
And I said, I'm taking them for show and tell.
And she's like, And she said later, she's like, I don't know how to tell this,
like, don't be stupid, they're just gonna melt and it's just gonna be a giant mess.
She's like, are you sure that's what you want to do?
I was like, yes.
Um, and so, you know, the real experience, of course, showed me
that, that it was not a dinosaur egg.
It did melt by show and tell.
I just had a giant puddle and the teacher was annoyed.
And I was like, hmm, okay, that was a theory that didn't work out.
Exactly!
I'm like, all right, that was not what I thought it was, note to self.
But I have taken that same approach.
to animals.
So when I can't see or smell or hear what they're perceiving, I do them the courtesy
of going along with the dinosaur egg.
It's like, oh, so at one point we had a bear in the neighborhood and so I was
walking my pony and all of a sudden the pony's like, she stops and she's on full
alert and she's looking into the woods.
And it was like dusk.
I can't see.
Like, if there's a black bear in the dark woods, until he
shows up, I'm not gonna see it.
So I could have just said, like, stop it, we're walking, let's go,
leave it, don't worry about it, blah blah blah, there's nothing there.
But I didn't.
So I oriented myself, and I was like,
and I tuned into the same direction she did, and I got as
intense, and we both listened.
I had no idea what the hell I was listening to.
I couldn't smell what she was smelling.
And I was hoping she wasn't going to hit the panic of, You
know what we should do now?
We should run away really fast!
Because I wasn't going to be able to keep up with her, right?
So I was just like, Hmm, what do you think?
And I'd look at her and she'd look at me and then we'd go
back to looking at the woods.
She had something she was actually focused on.
I did not.
I was like, Okay, you let me know.
You think we can, are we safe and we can walk away?
She's like, yeah.
And so I have told people for years now, go join the dog.
So tonight when you go out and your, your master's out there saying hmm, go out,
join her, orient yourself in the same way, give it your full attention, sniff the
air, and I've had people say like, one lady with a beagle, and what she said was,
as you're saying, How do I get at night?
He doesn't want to come out.
He just sits in the yard.
He won't come back in.
He's got his nose in the air.
And how do I make him get in the house?
I'm like, well, why don't you go out and join him?
There's a reason he's sitting out there.
And she goes, oh, so I should just go out in the backyard and stand next to my
dog and sniff the air like I'm a beagle.
I'm like, yep.
Um, I'm going to do that.
I'm going to
Anke: let you know because I can talk like when, because when you just described
it's like, Oh, that's like, that would be the, the essence of relationship building.
It's like, you know, like appreciating them enough to take.
their experience, seriously, and not just the Zoom, just because I can't
smell it, there's nothing there.
It's like, I was like, when you were talking, I was like,
oh, I'm so gonna do that.
Suzanne: And that's, that's what this woman did.
So she was just like in her sixties and you know, she lived in, in suburb,
uh, suburban Chicago and she's like, fine, I'm going to give that a try.
And then next day she came into the seminar and I said, She goes, well,
he's out there doing his thing, just, you know, his nose in the air.
And I called him and he wouldn't come.
Cause she's like, I offer him treats.
I'm like, that's not as valuable to him as smelling.
Like, don't assume chicken and cheese are the answer to life.
They're not the Holy Grail for dogs.
Um, and so she said, so I went, all right, I said, I'd try it.
So I walked out there and I stood next to him and, I sniffed, and if he moved his
head in a certain direction, I did it too.
And then I looked at him, he looked at me, and I said, can you come in now?
And the dog said, sure.
And she just, she just was astonished.
Like, it worked.
And like, because you gave him the respect of, I'm going to come
share the experience you're having and now can you come with me?
Um, and another woman did it with cats because lots and lots of feral cats
she lived in outside of San Francisco.
And she goes, it's just, I hate taking my dog for a walk because
there's so many feral cats.
They're under the cars.
He's just hysterical, you know, and he's just disconnects and nothing I do works.
I'm like, well, you're not going to get rid of the cats.
So you might as well just share the, the experience.
It's like, oh, so I should get down and look under the cars with him.
I was like, Try it.
And it just blew her mind.
So he's got his nose stuck under a can.
She gets down.
She looks and sure enough, there's a cat by the front tire.
And she's like, so there's a cat.
And the dog looks at her like, right, like I've been trying to tell you.
You see it too, right?
She's like, yeah, that is a cat.
Good job.
Can we go on now?
The dog's like, okay.
He's like, what the hell?
I was like, it's very much like that, that wonderful bit in, in The Little Prince.
Where he's drawing an elephant inside a snake, right?
But he shows it to someone and the adults think it's a hat.
But the author's like, Oh no, that's clearly, you know, this
python that swallowed a snake.
But you have to have the courtesy of not assuming your
perception is it, but sharing it.
So the animal's like, Oh, you're a little brighter than I thought.
You do.
Hear that, right?
Because there's not a test.
They're not going to say prove that you heard what I heard.
If your body language says, I'm also having this moment, they believe you.
The one thing animals don't know about is, is they don't know how to lie.
They know that people lie.
Anke: I would say you can't trick a dog, right?
Well, you can,
Suzanne: but once.
Anke: Once, oh, yeah, no, I tried that.
Mrs.
Mastiff here, it was hilarious.
Like, she got into the bedroom and I wanted her to come out.
And one day I tried, like I just sort of kind of like fiddled with the bag
of something in the kitchen and she was there, right, you know, and I got a treat.
I gave her something and closed the bedroom door.
The next day she didn't react to that, so I kind of came closer with the treat.
She came out, got the treat.
The third day she stayed in there, looked at me, yeah.
You know, I've got juice sussed out, right?
She wasn't having it, like, she did not fall for anything more than once.
Suzanne: And we, and we do, we teach them that we will lie to them, instead of,
so I would use the opposite approach.
We have a big container, I often use cat kibble because it's little and
it really smells strong because cats have stronger taste preferences, and
it just makes noise when I shake it.
So it's just a, it's just a conditioned response, no more than like, you
know, when I was a kid, the ice cream man, when he came to the
neighborhood, we'd hear that bell, we're like, Oh, I gotta run home, get
my money so I can get an ice cream.
And so for the dogs, it's just like that, that shake is a
promise that I will feed you.
You don't have to come, but I'm asking you to, and I'm promising you that,
and I, I don't use it to lie to them.
You know, um, but I've had animals that people had lied to them.
So they're like, no, no, no, I know this trick.
This trick is all sweetness and light until, um, so a couple, a couple of
animals in my barn I got when they were older and people had lied to them.
One of our little donkeys, her daughter.
Her daughter, if you told Bliss that people would lie to you and hurt you and
trick you, she would look at you like, that's some kind of silly fairy tale.
No one would do that to a donkey.
Her mother's like, yes, they do.
Um, but most of the animals here would say like, that's silly.
No one would lie to a dog, like no one would do that to a dog.
You know, it's, it's the threat we have when our dogs are bad.
I'm like, don't make me put on one of those dog training movies.
I will put it on.
You'll have to see what other dogs have to go through.
So I'm, I'm glad that the vast majority of the animals that live here, if
you could actually tell them this is what people do to animals, they
would think, no, that's not possible.
That's not possible.
Um, but yeah, if you've gotten dogs from other sources, they may come with that
understanding that yeah, food is good, but it's also a little set of handcuffs
you're about to try to get on me.
You know, you're, you're trying to trick me.
You're trying to lie to me.
This is not an honest interaction.
And we teach dogs not to trust us, or we teach them to trust
us, um, one way or the other.
But sometimes we're not, we're not aware that we're doing it.
We think we're being kind, right?
As soon as people use food, they're like, but I'm a positive trainer.
It's like, Not really.
I always tell people, go watch that movie Indecent Proposal, you know, where
Redford says, will you sleep with me?
And, uh, and she's like, no.
And he goes, how about for a million dollars?
And she's like, well, like, all right, somewhere between those two
price points, zero and a million.
We have now pressured her into doing something she would not have done, right?
That she would not have freely done.
So we always have to be careful when we're, when we're training, or we're
trying to shape another being's behavior, is that they do have freedom to choose.
That they're actually, you know, as they say, if there's only one
right choice, that is called zero degrees of freedom, that we have
to have multiple degrees of freedom in these interactions with animals.
And that's at the cutting edge of a lot of the zoo animal training.
How many degrees of freedom are involved in this choice?
Because they're acutely aware, especially in a zoo animal, an exotic animal,
how much they have abrogated the species natural tendencies, the size
of their territory, their ability to, you know, um, secure their own food.
They really are at the mercy of the, of the keepers.
Um, but our dogs, sometimes it's good to remember these are
happy, well fed hostages too.
Be very careful about that.
Anke: Yeah.
I love that.
I think you're looking at everything through that lens.
I'm And giving them that respect to start with, to really try, I mean, even
if you can try and look at it through there, but obviously we know we don't
have the same senses, but then to just recognize, you know, if you have your
nose in the wind, it's because you perceive something I can't, which means
like You know, I should listen to you and not insist on you listening to me,
kind of, you know, I just love that.
Yeah, I think if a relationship is based on that, like, well, yeah, then
nobody would be surprised if the horse comes with you or the dog comes with
you because You know, we're the same.
If we feel really seen and heard, you know, we feel drawn to that other being
and we trust them a lot more than if you get some, you know, with random
demands, you know, some person who kind of randomly enforces their, their power.
It's a whole different ballgame.
Suzanne: I think these are the, the kind of relationships we're forced into with,
with humans, um, that we end up with.
We're forced into it by our neighbors, right?
We're forced into it by the people that we have to work with because that's
the, that's our fellow employees.
Given a choice, if we did not have to worry about paying the bills,
and we could say, I, I don't want to live next to this person.
I'm going to pick up my house, and I'm going to put it here
in this little patch of forest.
Um, I, I don't want to live next to you, like, so the, the wild animal
has a lot more freedom to say, hmm, no, I'm not liking this, I'm going
to go find another place to live.
I'm going to go find something else to eat.
I'm going to find different set of conspifics to, to interact with.
But we lock ourselves as modern men into a lot of conflict that we
just go through every single day.
And we, we have these civilized manners that we lay over the top of
it, but we are not often at peace.
You know, there's, there's some of the, um, African, uh, tribes that they
don't believe in democracy because they believe either we all agree.
Or it's not agreed.
And I have often thought like, wow, what if that was actually how
I had to work with animals, that if there was a disagreement, we
had to find a point of agreement.
So that as much as possible, I try to actually honor.
I have to find, not how do I fight more effectively when I'm in an argument
with an animal, which is what a lot of training is, but it's, can I back
this conversation down to a point where we have a point of agreement?
Then I can build from there.
So a lot of what I do is, well, if you can't do that, how about this?
And the animal says, no, I'm still, no.
It's like, okay, how about this?
How about this?
Can we at least agree on this?
And that, that is easier said than done, and it does not mean that,
um, anyone who's working on the relationship is going to get it right.
I mean, we practice a lot with our human relationships.
I mean, that's not easy.
Anke: So I,
Suzanne: no, because it's two live beings with their own perspectives
and goals and moods and how they feel that day and, and you know, what their
history is and what interests them.
And you know, I, I don't know what a point of agreement would be if I had someone who
was like really into fashion and we wanted to discuss like how we got our nails done.
I'm like.
You just trim the jagged parts off and you get the dirt out from
underneath them and our nails are done.
Well, there you've got your There you go, that's a conversation.
How do I get the nail out?
You know, how do I trim the ragged parts off?
And that's funny.
Anke: That's hilarious.
So, so where can people go and find out more about your work and and contact
you and you know, find out more?
Suzanne: Well, just go to SuzanneMcClothier.
com and we have got, man, that's, that's kind of your,
there's a lot of stuff there.
And she's very
Anke: poetic, like just the names.
I love how you name stuff.
Like do check, do check her out.
Please do yourself a favor, go to the, go to the website.
If you're listening to this on the podcast and the show notes, if you're
seeing it on the newsletter, it's kind of above or below the video.
So, yeah, do yourself a favor, you, you'll love it.
She's got plenty of brilliant stuff there, so thank you so much.
I could listen to you for ages.
So good, so good.
Thank you.
Suzanne: Great conversation.
Really enjoyed it.
Thanks so much for listening.
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That's A N k E at Soul touched by dogs.com.