WEBVTT

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CalyxOS is back in public releases,

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some good news for privacy in the US,

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and what would you do if a flock

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microphone appeared in your yard

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overnight?

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All this and more coming up with This

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Week in Privacy, so stay tuned.

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Welcome back to This Week in Privacy,

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our weekly series where we discuss the

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latest updates with what we're working on

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within the PrivacyGuides community and

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this week's top stories in data privacy

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and cybersecurity.

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I'm Nate,

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and with me this week is Jordan.

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How are you doing, Jordan?

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I'm doing great.

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So excited to jump back into some more

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privacy news this week.

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Yeah, it was a busy week.

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Thankfully, not super, super overwhelming,

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but definitely no shortage of stories to

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choose from.

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And I think first up here,

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we're going to go with some news from

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CalixOS,

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who is officially back in a public

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release.

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So some of you may remember,

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to kind of give you the full drama,

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let me go back to the beginning.

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So I believe it was about...

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Oh, God,

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it was about this time last year.

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Holy crap.

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Maybe a little after this,

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maybe closer to the fall.

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But CalyxOS, which is a –

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I know this is going to be controversial

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just to say this,

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but I think it would technically qualify

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as a de-Googled Android in the vein of

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something like Lineage or EOS,

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arguably graphene,

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just in the sense that it's like Android,

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but they try to reduce some of the

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Google bits that are in there by default.

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We'll get into all that later, I'm sure.

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But CalixOS,

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they announced that a few of their key

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members were leaving,

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including their lead developer and

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Nicholas Merrill,

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who founded the organization.

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And they also announced that coinciding

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with that,

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they were basically going to freeze

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releases and completely redo their

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backend.

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And there was a lot of speculation because

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it was really weird, right?

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They were basically like, like a,

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They were like,

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we're going to rotate our keys.

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We're going to come up with this new

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key signing thing.

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We're going to streamline our process.

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Like,

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we're just going to overhaul everything

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from the ground up.

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And there was a lot of speculation, like,

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that's really weird.

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Like, is there evidence of compromise?

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Like,

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did Nicholas take the keys with him when

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he left?

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Like, what happened here exactly?

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And so they did put out a statement.

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They were like, no, like,

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there's no evidence of compromise.

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But they still never really said why now.

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Like, they didn't just say if it's like,

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look,

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we've been meaning to do this and now

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is a good time or what the case

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was.

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But they said about four to six months.

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And for the record, I'll admit my bias.

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I like Kallax.

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It was like one of the first...

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I mean,

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it was the first de-Googled OS that I

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ran full-time.

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So I have a soft spot for it.

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But I do have to admit that they

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really, really overshot that goal.

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I think they finally...

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um they finally released and here's what i

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was gonna say some of you guys may

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remember a couple months ago i think it

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was around february or march uh maybe

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january i'm bad with time they finally

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announced um you know okay we have this

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like beta release that you can go and

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download um but they weren't fully back

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yet like this so that's what this is

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they are like we are back we have

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a full release you can go download it

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now you can use it um

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Their communication could have been better

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during this almost year long process.

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They only issued like three or four status

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updates.

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And again,

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they really never explained like,

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why are we running behind?

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Why is this taking so long?

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What are the roadblocks?

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Just a personal pet peeve of mine.

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Like I'm, I know I'm kind of,

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doing the analysis already.

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But, like, I'm a really big fan of,

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like,

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if something is taking longer than

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expected, tell people why.

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Don't just be like, oh,

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we're working on it.

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We're working on it.

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Like, tell people, like,

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we ran into this issue.

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This broke.

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This turned out to be harder than we

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expected.

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Blah, blah, blah.

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Just let people know, man.

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But anyways.

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So, yeah.

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So, it's fully back.

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There's version seven dot two dot two dot

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zero,

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which unfortunately is still based on

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Android sixteen.

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They have not upgraded to Android

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seventeen yet.

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But...

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On the plus side,

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they do say that there is,

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they do support a new phone now.

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Where did that go?

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I can't find it.

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I probably scrolled right past it.

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But they are supporting a new phone now.

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I think it's the Shift Phone six or

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something like that.

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So that's pretty cool.

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They say that they are.

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Oh, yes, there it is.

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The Shift Phone eight.

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They say that they are working on Android

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seventeen.

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So what they did is they switched to

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HSM based open source signing solution,

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which HSM, from what I understand,

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I'm a little bit outside my expertise

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here.

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But from what I understand,

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it's kind of like a

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it's almost like a physical server that

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handles the signing keys.

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That's probably like a really grossly

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oversimplified version,

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but it's supposed to be like really super

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secure.

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So they've got this new,

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like really secure way of handling the

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signing process.

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They did release the security audit and

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the provisioning ceremony and everything.

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Uh, they also did do some things and,

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um, here's what I'll be interested to see.

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So they say in response to Google's less

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frequent AOSP source code releases,

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which for anyone who missed that Google

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used to release the Android open source

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project, um,

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I think once a month and now then

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they switched to like once a quarter.

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And I think now it's even gone down

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to like twice a year.

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Um, I could be wrong about that,

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but it's definitely a lot less often.

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So now all these, these, uh,

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I don't want to call them derivatives.

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These forks of Android that we like to

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use in the privacy community now have to

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do so much extra work to try and

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get this.

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And that's like the least of things that

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Google did,

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but that's a whole different story.

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Anyway, sorry.

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In response to Google's less frequent AOSP

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source code releases,

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our team developed scripts to reduce

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overhead in applying monthly patches and

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updates.

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So that's pretty cool.

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They say they have set up a cleaner

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server structure to streamline each

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release.

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And currently,

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our lead engineer is continuing

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maintenance on the base device trees for

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both Lineage and Calix to bridge the gap

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created by the absence of Google Pixel

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device trees, which is, again,

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another thing that Google stopped

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publishing that makes the job so much

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harder.

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So they said we'll share a timeline soon

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for releasing Kallax VIII with Android

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XVII.

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And last but not least,

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they did have some personnel changes

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again.

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Like I mentioned,

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they said that their core developer

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working on the Aurora store is leaving for

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another opportunity.

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I think they said...

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I don't know if they've replaced him yet,

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but they said they did welcome somebody to

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replace someone else who does

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infrastructure.

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So yeah, it's definitely...

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So I guess let me start by saying

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that Calix is not officially recommended

00:06:42.360 --> 00:06:44.882
by privacy guides just because we feel

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like it doesn't really bring anything

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meaningful to the table in terms of

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privacy and security.

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Like, I think it's not bad.

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And I think the decisions,

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at least in my opinion,

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I know there's some people who argue that

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it's a downgrade in security.

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There's, I think...

00:07:02.745 --> 00:07:03.345
Personal opinion,

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I think the decisions they make make

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sense.

00:07:05.586 --> 00:07:06.848
Like for example, they say that,

00:07:07.869 --> 00:07:09.850
I think it's the clock server still pings

00:07:09.889 --> 00:07:11.372
Google because they're basically like,

00:07:11.391 --> 00:07:12.692
well, it makes you blend in better.

00:07:13.153 --> 00:07:13.812
But at the same time,

00:07:13.853 --> 00:07:15.754
I think that's a matter of what do

00:07:15.774 --> 00:07:17.675
you want out of a device?

00:07:17.755 --> 00:07:19.798
Like that's kind of a personal opinion

00:07:19.838 --> 00:07:19.997
thing.

00:07:20.038 --> 00:07:20.177
Like,

00:07:20.197 --> 00:07:21.699
do you wanna blend in with everybody or

00:07:21.738 --> 00:07:22.899
do you want Google to not get your

00:07:22.920 --> 00:07:24.021
IP address in the first place?

00:07:25.021 --> 00:07:26.343
I don't think there's really a wrong

00:07:26.442 --> 00:07:27.504
answer there necessarily,

00:07:27.543 --> 00:07:28.685
but I guess my point is like,

00:07:28.725 --> 00:07:30.146
I think their decisions make sense even if

00:07:30.165 --> 00:07:31.086
they're not the right decisions.

00:07:31.766 --> 00:07:34.509
but um i will be interested personally to

00:07:34.548 --> 00:07:37.129
see i guess i i think one of

00:07:37.149 --> 00:07:39.632
the big reasons again there's several

00:07:39.651 --> 00:07:40.872
reasons but one of the big reasons that

00:07:40.913 --> 00:07:42.312
we don't recommend calyx is they've

00:07:42.392 --> 00:07:45.214
historically been very slow to provide

00:07:45.314 --> 00:07:48.677
updates and uh they did kind of fix

00:07:48.697 --> 00:07:50.517
that shortly before this reboot like a

00:07:50.557 --> 00:07:51.939
year or two it was a couple years

00:07:52.600 --> 00:07:54.661
um before this reboot they released the uh

00:07:55.745 --> 00:07:56.144
what is it called,

00:07:56.185 --> 00:07:57.286
the Security Express channel,

00:07:57.766 --> 00:07:58.906
which is basically you can go into your

00:07:58.927 --> 00:08:00.427
settings and you know how you can sign

00:08:00.466 --> 00:08:01.668
up for like the beta releases,

00:08:01.708 --> 00:08:02.548
the stable releases.

00:08:02.788 --> 00:08:02.887
Well,

00:08:02.908 --> 00:08:04.689
they added a third option called Security

00:08:04.728 --> 00:08:05.048
Express,

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which is only the security releases.

00:08:07.050 --> 00:08:09.091
So you still have to wait for the

00:08:09.130 --> 00:08:10.372
features to hit stable,

00:08:10.672 --> 00:08:12.312
but you will get those security patches

00:08:13.333 --> 00:08:15.053
usually within a couple days of when they

00:08:15.074 --> 00:08:16.214
publicly released by Google.

00:08:16.814 --> 00:08:18.495
So that was really cool to see.

00:08:18.555 --> 00:08:19.617
But then there's this whole thing that,

00:08:19.637 --> 00:08:20.016
like I said,

00:08:20.036 --> 00:08:21.317
was supposed to take four to six months,

00:08:21.338 --> 00:08:22.137
took almost a year,

00:08:22.538 --> 00:08:23.538
not a lot of communication.

00:08:23.918 --> 00:08:24.399
So personally,

00:08:24.499 --> 00:08:25.819
I will be really interested to see with

00:08:25.839 --> 00:08:27.860
all these infrastructure improvements and

00:08:27.880 --> 00:08:29.182
the scripting that they've done.

00:08:29.841 --> 00:08:32.484
And I'm really interested to see.

00:08:33.910 --> 00:08:35.392
if this is going to make a difference

00:08:35.493 --> 00:08:36.774
with their release schedule.

00:08:36.813 --> 00:08:38.095
Because I think that will go a long

00:08:38.134 --> 00:08:40.557
way to addressing at least some of the

00:08:40.596 --> 00:08:42.979
biggest concerns with Calix.

00:08:43.139 --> 00:08:43.759
Now, again,

00:08:44.380 --> 00:08:45.782
they don't do the hardened memory

00:08:45.802 --> 00:08:46.261
allocator.

00:08:46.342 --> 00:08:47.443
I think we have a page somewhere on

00:08:47.464 --> 00:08:49.445
the website that I'll go find while Jordan

00:08:49.485 --> 00:08:50.145
gives their thoughts.

00:08:50.186 --> 00:08:52.827
But they don't harden the memory.

00:08:52.869 --> 00:08:54.769
They don't really introduce any additional

00:08:54.789 --> 00:08:55.431
sandboxing.

00:08:56.231 --> 00:08:58.113
They replace Google services with Micro G.

00:08:59.014 --> 00:09:00.934
And unfortunately they do give micro G

00:09:01.014 --> 00:09:03.136
elevated permissions in order to run

00:09:03.177 --> 00:09:04.937
reliably for like notifications and stuff.

00:09:05.317 --> 00:09:06.298
So that's kind of one of the examples

00:09:06.337 --> 00:09:07.339
I talked about where some people will

00:09:07.399 --> 00:09:08.700
argue that it's a step backwards because

00:09:08.720 --> 00:09:10.441
now you're giving this third party

00:09:10.480 --> 00:09:12.282
program, some extra permissions, whereas,

00:09:12.522 --> 00:09:14.942
you know, graphene will like isolate the,

00:09:15.102 --> 00:09:15.224
um,

00:09:16.197 --> 00:09:17.739
the Google Play into its own sandbox,

00:09:17.759 --> 00:09:18.558
which is really genius.

00:09:18.599 --> 00:09:19.798
So it's definitely,

00:09:21.039 --> 00:09:23.461
I think Eteru here said that even with

00:09:23.480 --> 00:09:24.061
the recent update,

00:09:24.181 --> 00:09:26.721
it's still a trade-off between security

00:09:26.741 --> 00:09:27.221
and convenience.

00:09:27.302 --> 00:09:28.682
Using MicroGene signature spoofing means

00:09:28.722 --> 00:09:30.163
sacrificing core system security for

00:09:30.222 --> 00:09:30.644
usability.

00:09:30.663 --> 00:09:31.124
Exactly.

00:09:31.203 --> 00:09:33.245
So yeah,

00:09:33.345 --> 00:09:34.725
it's definitely not our top

00:09:34.764 --> 00:09:35.365
recommendation,

00:09:35.424 --> 00:09:36.926
but it's still a popular choice in the

00:09:36.946 --> 00:09:37.385
community.

00:09:37.586 --> 00:09:39.006
And the fact that it is back now

00:09:39.626 --> 00:09:40.707
is definitely really big news.

00:09:42.208 --> 00:09:44.076
so i think i have rambled on that

00:09:44.115 --> 00:09:46.225
plenty um jordan did you have any thoughts

00:09:46.245 --> 00:09:46.886
about this story

00:09:48.274 --> 00:09:48.474
No,

00:09:48.533 --> 00:09:51.317
I think you did a good job covering

00:09:51.636 --> 00:09:52.818
like a lot of the main things.

00:09:52.918 --> 00:09:53.698
Sorry, everyone,

00:09:53.739 --> 00:09:55.160
I'm a little bit sick this week.

00:09:55.201 --> 00:09:56.903
So if I sound a bit funny,

00:09:57.143 --> 00:09:58.024
that's the reason why.

00:09:58.624 --> 00:10:04.549
But so basically this is kind of the

00:10:04.570 --> 00:10:06.030
reason why I'm covering this is because

00:10:06.110 --> 00:10:08.693
obviously this is news in the privacy

00:10:08.714 --> 00:10:12.597
community because I think this is

00:10:13.822 --> 00:10:15.923
I think while CalixOS doesn't have,

00:10:16.323 --> 00:10:16.524
you know,

00:10:16.563 --> 00:10:18.844
it doesn't compare to GrapheneOS in terms

00:10:18.903 --> 00:10:21.485
of security, I think, you know,

00:10:22.504 --> 00:10:24.065
it's possible that, you know,

00:10:24.264 --> 00:10:26.985
I think there's privacy benefits over

00:10:27.426 --> 00:10:28.905
stock Android and, you know,

00:10:29.306 --> 00:10:30.226
other operating systems.

00:10:30.287 --> 00:10:32.527
But I think, you know, like Nate said,

00:10:32.586 --> 00:10:34.067
like we kind of do push people more

00:10:34.107 --> 00:10:36.048
towards GrapheneOS because that is just

00:10:36.408 --> 00:10:39.048
like the pinnacle at this point of privacy

00:10:39.089 --> 00:10:40.129
and security and,

00:10:40.149 --> 00:10:40.548
you

00:10:41.504 --> 00:10:43.385
I think it's also the gap has widened

00:10:43.485 --> 00:10:46.606
even more because Grapheneus has the

00:10:46.787 --> 00:10:48.488
sandbox Google Play services,

00:10:48.567 --> 00:10:55.230
which offers a good level of privacy from

00:10:55.269 --> 00:10:57.291
Google by not allowing it to be a

00:10:57.350 --> 00:10:58.032
privileged app.

00:11:00.783 --> 00:11:01.943
That is, you know,

00:11:02.043 --> 00:11:03.205
a benefit of Graphene OS.

00:11:03.225 --> 00:11:04.865
But then there's this comment here from

00:11:04.985 --> 00:11:06.006
Dag Overhaul.

00:11:07.128 --> 00:11:08.749
Does Kallax OS support a wider set of

00:11:08.788 --> 00:11:09.789
devices than Graphene?

00:11:09.929 --> 00:11:10.429
Exactly.

00:11:10.791 --> 00:11:11.630
So that is, like,

00:11:11.691 --> 00:11:14.232
the benefit of Kallax OS is, you know,

00:11:14.312 --> 00:11:16.095
if you do have, like, a Motorola or,

00:11:16.235 --> 00:11:17.216
like, Nate was saying, like,

00:11:17.235 --> 00:11:19.057
a Shift Phone Eight or any of these

00:11:19.136 --> 00:11:20.658
other, like, custom devices.

00:11:21.979 --> 00:11:23.559
I know they support Fairphone as well.

00:11:24.260 --> 00:11:26.001
So, you know,

00:11:26.062 --> 00:11:27.123
if you do have one of these other

00:11:27.163 --> 00:11:28.144
devices, then...

00:11:30.123 --> 00:11:32.083
boom, that's your solution.

00:11:32.244 --> 00:11:35.966
But I think we should all be very

00:11:36.265 --> 00:11:39.168
cautiously cautious about this because as

00:11:39.207 --> 00:11:39.947
we saw,

00:11:41.489 --> 00:11:43.409
they haven't released a single release

00:11:44.370 --> 00:11:45.892
because they had a whole restructuring and

00:11:45.912 --> 00:11:48.092
everything, which, you know, it happens.

00:11:48.192 --> 00:11:49.094
I think it's hard to

00:11:50.134 --> 00:11:52.096
hard to keep managing a project for an

00:11:52.135 --> 00:11:54.116
extended period of time there were you

00:11:54.136 --> 00:11:57.320
know they had a very cemented workflow

00:11:57.340 --> 00:12:00.081
that they had for probably you know four

00:12:00.101 --> 00:12:02.384
or five years so i think it's reasonable

00:12:02.443 --> 00:12:04.865
to uh to have to take a pause

00:12:04.884 --> 00:12:06.907
on updates for a little bit um to

00:12:06.947 --> 00:12:08.807
restructure that so i don't think that is

00:12:09.629 --> 00:12:11.770
super concerning but i do think you know

00:12:12.451 --> 00:12:14.072
it is extremely unfortunate especially

00:12:14.113 --> 00:12:16.114
when it's like the threat landscape that

00:12:16.134 --> 00:12:18.596
we're in is where you know people's

00:12:18.615 --> 00:12:19.135
devices

00:12:20.157 --> 00:12:22.557
are constantly under attack and if they're

00:12:22.577 --> 00:12:25.519
not receiving updates then that is kind of

00:12:25.799 --> 00:12:29.121
a that's kind of a massive problem

00:12:30.423 --> 00:12:34.004
especially because you know there's

00:12:34.205 --> 00:12:36.245
there's so many attacks that can that can

00:12:37.726 --> 00:12:38.147
that can be

00:12:39.485 --> 00:12:41.585
that can be exposed to if you don't

00:12:41.946 --> 00:12:43.186
make sure your device is updated.

00:12:43.285 --> 00:12:45.186
So I hope that, you know,

00:12:45.265 --> 00:12:47.407
this is the first official update.

00:12:47.466 --> 00:12:49.307
I hope they continue making sure they're

00:12:49.326 --> 00:12:50.788
keeping on top of updates as well.

00:12:51.967 --> 00:12:53.807
Graphene OS is already updated to Android,

00:12:54.467 --> 00:12:57.288
whereas Kallax OS is still on Android.

00:12:57.308 --> 00:13:00.070
So they've always been behind.

00:13:00.129 --> 00:13:01.110
It's just always been,

00:13:01.570 --> 00:13:02.350
it's the nature of it.

00:13:02.710 --> 00:13:05.150
Graphene OS is also behind as well when

00:13:05.171 --> 00:13:06.051
it comes to, you know,

00:13:07.403 --> 00:13:09.423
big releases like Android, they took,

00:13:10.125 --> 00:13:11.326
I think it was a couple of weeks,

00:13:11.365 --> 00:13:12.246
maybe two weeks,

00:13:12.466 --> 00:13:13.366
I think to have a stable,

00:13:14.128 --> 00:13:15.009
a stable build out.

00:13:15.068 --> 00:13:16.168
So, you know,

00:13:16.188 --> 00:13:17.490
there's always going to be a delay.

00:13:17.791 --> 00:13:19.312
Um, but I think, you know,

00:13:19.331 --> 00:13:20.773
when we compare the projects graph,

00:13:20.793 --> 00:13:21.753
you know, this is just such a,

00:13:21.953 --> 00:13:23.153
it's a much bigger project.

00:13:23.173 --> 00:13:24.355
They've got much, um,

00:13:25.115 --> 00:13:26.657
much more developers working on it.

00:13:26.856 --> 00:13:29.158
It's, it's just a bigger project.

00:13:29.198 --> 00:13:31.440
So that kind of means that these,

00:13:31.801 --> 00:13:33.341
these sort of maintenance tasks get

00:13:33.381 --> 00:13:34.682
completed more quickly, which,

00:13:35.990 --> 00:13:36.410
It's fine.

00:13:37.171 --> 00:13:39.193
There was another comment from Dag here.

00:13:39.754 --> 00:13:41.716
Can you run Google Play services slash

00:13:41.735 --> 00:13:42.657
store on Kallax,

00:13:42.716 --> 00:13:44.639
install and run banking apps, et cetera?

00:13:44.820 --> 00:13:48.363
So I guess I think Nate, I believe,

00:13:48.383 --> 00:13:50.806
has used Kallax OS quite a bit.

00:13:50.846 --> 00:13:52.006
So maybe I can throw that back to

00:13:52.027 --> 00:13:53.349
you and you can answer that question.

00:13:54.880 --> 00:13:55.520
Yeah, sure thing.

00:13:55.980 --> 00:13:57.961
So technically, no,

00:13:58.081 --> 00:13:59.822
Google Play services does not work.

00:14:00.263 --> 00:14:01.623
The Play Store, as far as I know,

00:14:01.682 --> 00:14:02.244
does not work.

00:14:02.344 --> 00:14:03.744
Usually they recommend using Aurora

00:14:03.844 --> 00:14:04.264
instead.

00:14:05.985 --> 00:14:07.264
Instead of Google Play services,

00:14:07.304 --> 00:14:08.285
you'll use Micro G,

00:14:08.365 --> 00:14:10.667
which in my experience works fine.

00:14:10.846 --> 00:14:12.647
I'd say like ninety percent of the time

00:14:13.006 --> 00:14:15.048
where you run into issues is so there

00:14:15.067 --> 00:14:16.448
was there's one app that I use.

00:14:16.469 --> 00:14:17.448
It's like a habit tracker.

00:14:18.068 --> 00:14:20.029
And on Google,

00:14:21.830 --> 00:14:23.792
because I was kind of bouncing back and

00:14:23.812 --> 00:14:25.253
forth between the two for a minute to

00:14:25.452 --> 00:14:26.114
kind of compare them.

00:14:27.835 --> 00:14:28.475
On Graphene,

00:14:28.655 --> 00:14:30.177
I would get notifications that it's like,

00:14:30.236 --> 00:14:30.597
hey,

00:14:30.697 --> 00:14:32.519
our premium version is fifty percent off

00:14:33.220 --> 00:14:34.400
for the next week or whatever.

00:14:34.780 --> 00:14:35.662
And then you click it and it takes

00:14:35.682 --> 00:14:36.562
you to the Play Store and you can

00:14:36.602 --> 00:14:36.962
sign up.

00:14:37.264 --> 00:14:38.244
And it's one of those apps that I...

00:14:39.164 --> 00:14:39.384
Actually,

00:14:39.404 --> 00:14:41.086
I think maybe you could have gone straight

00:14:41.105 --> 00:14:41.625
to the website.

00:14:42.145 --> 00:14:42.586
I can't remember.

00:14:43.086 --> 00:14:44.966
Um, but on Calix, for example, that,

00:14:45.087 --> 00:14:46.327
that I think I would still get the

00:14:46.347 --> 00:14:47.928
notification, but it wouldn't work.

00:14:48.109 --> 00:14:49.068
Like I would click on it and it

00:14:49.089 --> 00:14:49.609
would just be like, oh,

00:14:49.668 --> 00:14:51.090
there's an error because, uh,

00:14:51.110 --> 00:14:53.410
Aurora does not support and micro G do

00:14:53.451 --> 00:14:56.192
not support, um, the,

00:14:56.211 --> 00:14:57.472
the subscriptions like that.

00:14:57.692 --> 00:14:57.793
Um,

00:14:59.042 --> 00:14:59.162
Yeah,

00:14:59.182 --> 00:15:00.302
I'm pretty sure I was able to pay

00:15:00.322 --> 00:15:02.264
for it directly on the website and get

00:15:02.303 --> 00:15:02.745
around that.

00:15:02.804 --> 00:15:04.066
But sometimes you can't do that.

00:15:04.105 --> 00:15:06.167
Some apps don't let you pay directly on

00:15:06.187 --> 00:15:07.808
the website, which is unfortunate.

00:15:07.849 --> 00:15:10.029
So there's little things like that that

00:15:10.070 --> 00:15:10.990
don't work very well.

00:15:12.152 --> 00:15:13.753
The banking apps, in my experience,

00:15:13.793 --> 00:15:16.575
work pretty well because it still locks

00:15:16.595 --> 00:15:17.176
the bootloader.

00:15:17.216 --> 00:15:19.277
So it still gets that security feature

00:15:19.297 --> 00:15:20.018
that it's looking for.

00:15:20.538 --> 00:15:21.438
But also,

00:15:21.599 --> 00:15:24.321
I know that Google is changing how Android

00:15:24.341 --> 00:15:25.120
verifies stuff.

00:15:25.140 --> 00:15:27.283
So we may have more issues in general

00:15:27.322 --> 00:15:28.004
going forward.

00:15:28.604 --> 00:15:31.125
that I would expect to see Graphene handle

00:15:31.206 --> 00:15:32.166
a little better just because of the

00:15:32.186 --> 00:15:33.386
compatibility layer thing.

00:15:33.407 --> 00:15:35.347
So when I was using it,

00:15:35.368 --> 00:15:37.149
banking apps worked good enough,

00:15:37.269 --> 00:15:39.509
but there's always a possibility that they

00:15:39.549 --> 00:15:41.191
don't work as well now because I

00:15:41.951 --> 00:15:43.493
absolutely stopped using it when they

00:15:43.533 --> 00:15:44.293
stopped getting updates.

00:15:44.312 --> 00:15:46.134
Like right after they paused for this

00:15:46.173 --> 00:15:48.316
whole thing, there was like a big...

00:15:49.548 --> 00:15:51.532
there's like a big update for Android in

00:15:51.591 --> 00:15:53.714
general that fixed a lot of like really

00:15:53.734 --> 00:15:55.076
serious security vulnerabilities.

00:15:55.155 --> 00:15:55.996
And people were like, yeah,

00:15:56.017 --> 00:15:58.681
you should definitely get off Calix at

00:15:58.721 --> 00:15:59.961
least until they fix this.

00:16:00.722 --> 00:16:03.886
So, yeah.

00:16:03.907 --> 00:16:04.967
I think we'll, you know,

00:16:05.269 --> 00:16:07.672
we'll watch cautiously on this because...

00:16:09.217 --> 00:16:11.418
It's an evolving situation,

00:16:11.458 --> 00:16:14.179
but I don't think unless anything huge and

00:16:14.240 --> 00:16:15.039
major changes,

00:16:15.059 --> 00:16:16.561
there'll be any recommendation from

00:16:16.620 --> 00:16:17.380
privacy guides.

00:16:18.522 --> 00:16:20.562
Just because, like Nate said,

00:16:20.582 --> 00:16:23.563
there's not really any significant benefit

00:16:23.604 --> 00:16:25.625
to this over GrapheneOS,

00:16:25.684 --> 00:16:30.147
which seems to have more focus on privacy

00:16:30.167 --> 00:16:32.248
and security than CalixOS does.

00:16:34.567 --> 00:16:36.369
I think it'll be interesting to see how

00:16:36.408 --> 00:16:38.409
well the maintenance goes over time,

00:16:38.610 --> 00:16:40.870
but we'll definitely make sure we're

00:16:40.910 --> 00:16:43.991
testing this and seeing how it evolves

00:16:44.091 --> 00:16:45.913
over time.

00:16:46.293 --> 00:16:46.413
Yeah,

00:16:46.452 --> 00:16:47.413
I think you really hit the nail on

00:16:47.432 --> 00:16:47.653
the head.

00:16:47.953 --> 00:16:49.173
It's really good if you don't have a

00:16:49.234 --> 00:16:51.615
Pixel for whatever reason.

00:16:51.695 --> 00:16:52.235
Personally,

00:16:52.394 --> 00:16:54.395
I would recommend Calix over stock Android

00:16:54.436 --> 00:16:55.657
because at least it will cut down on

00:16:55.777 --> 00:16:56.876
some of the Google telemetry.

00:16:58.118 --> 00:16:59.418
But yeah,

00:16:59.457 --> 00:17:00.638
if you have the option for Graphene,

00:17:00.677 --> 00:17:01.599
it's definitely the way to go.

00:17:02.912 --> 00:17:03.712
And real quick,

00:17:03.832 --> 00:17:04.634
I don't want to belabor it,

00:17:04.693 --> 00:17:06.316
but I did find that article I mentioned.

00:17:06.635 --> 00:17:07.336
I just want to throw it up on

00:17:07.376 --> 00:17:07.896
screen real quick.

00:17:07.936 --> 00:17:09.479
This is an article from twenty twenty two.

00:17:09.939 --> 00:17:10.740
That's why I couldn't find it.

00:17:10.779 --> 00:17:11.721
I thought it was an actual page,

00:17:11.740 --> 00:17:12.421
but it's an article.

00:17:13.281 --> 00:17:15.003
So it is a little old.

00:17:15.044 --> 00:17:16.365
So some of the information was outdated,

00:17:16.404 --> 00:17:18.207
but it kind of shows you graphene versus

00:17:18.227 --> 00:17:20.288
calyx update frequency sandbox Google Play

00:17:20.328 --> 00:17:23.932
versus micro G ESM activation extensions

00:17:23.971 --> 00:17:24.712
profiles,

00:17:24.952 --> 00:17:26.653
which that part might be outdated by now.

00:17:26.713 --> 00:17:27.015
So yeah.

00:17:28.276 --> 00:17:29.196
Definitely go check that out.

00:17:29.237 --> 00:17:30.597
It'll at least give you a rough idea

00:17:30.759 --> 00:17:32.319
of why we recommend graphene instead of

00:17:32.339 --> 00:17:36.785
calyx.

00:17:36.805 --> 00:17:37.826
I think you are muted.

00:17:38.066 --> 00:17:42.089
There's been some updates to that article,

00:17:42.170 --> 00:17:42.391
so...

00:17:43.755 --> 00:17:45.375
It's not a hundred percent correct,

00:17:45.816 --> 00:17:49.036
but it does have some general things that

00:17:49.155 --> 00:17:50.136
should be still correct.

00:17:50.696 --> 00:17:52.217
I believe the things that are not correct

00:17:52.297 --> 00:17:57.897
is the privileged micro G and also the

00:17:57.998 --> 00:17:59.679
privileged app extensions might've been

00:17:59.719 --> 00:18:02.338
removed possibly, but.

00:18:02.440 --> 00:18:04.519
I think micro G is still privileged.

00:18:04.700 --> 00:18:06.299
I know they've said that they do want

00:18:06.319 --> 00:18:07.661
to figure out a way around that because

00:18:07.681 --> 00:18:09.020
that is a common criticism they get.

00:18:09.040 --> 00:18:09.740
But last I checked,

00:18:09.760 --> 00:18:10.922
they hadn't fixed that yet,

00:18:10.961 --> 00:18:12.182
but I think the app extensions one,

00:18:12.201 --> 00:18:12.682
you might be right.

00:18:14.305 --> 00:18:15.266
Okay, yeah, I'm not sure,

00:18:15.346 --> 00:18:17.826
but definitely that'll be something you

00:18:17.846 --> 00:18:18.807
have to look into yourself.

00:18:18.866 --> 00:18:21.489
But yeah,

00:18:21.669 --> 00:18:23.230
so that's kind of everything we had to

00:18:23.269 --> 00:18:24.210
cover on this story.

00:18:24.269 --> 00:18:26.070
I guess we can move into the next

00:18:26.230 --> 00:18:26.871
one here.

00:18:27.632 --> 00:18:30.212
And this one is a story here from

00:18:30.313 --> 00:18:31.313
Foraform Media.

00:18:31.693 --> 00:18:33.515
Apple's hide my email vulnerability

00:18:33.974 --> 00:18:36.236
reveals people's real email addresses.

00:18:36.796 --> 00:18:39.297
hide my email users deserve to know that

00:18:39.317 --> 00:18:41.077
it may be possible for attackers to

00:18:41.117 --> 00:18:43.618
discover their hidden email addresses the

00:18:43.659 --> 00:18:47.500
person who reported the issue said um so

00:18:47.540 --> 00:18:50.903
basically if you okay this seems to be

00:18:51.083 --> 00:18:53.963
paywalled so um that is a bit of

00:18:53.983 --> 00:18:55.785
a problem uh

00:18:57.010 --> 00:18:57.590
Here,

00:18:57.692 --> 00:19:01.394
I'll hop in because I have a subscription.

00:19:02.375 --> 00:19:04.115
I'll say that, to be honest,

00:19:04.855 --> 00:19:06.217
that's kind of all there is to the

00:19:06.237 --> 00:19:07.678
story because they said that...

00:19:08.739 --> 00:19:11.141
So one thing that I will say was

00:19:11.181 --> 00:19:12.942
interesting is apparently this came from

00:19:13.502 --> 00:19:14.222
Tyler Murphy,

00:19:14.242 --> 00:19:15.963
who is the co-founder of Easy Opt-Outs,

00:19:16.183 --> 00:19:18.046
who we do recommend on Privacy Guides.

00:19:18.185 --> 00:19:19.185
I've been using them for years,

00:19:19.247 --> 00:19:20.086
very happy with them.

00:19:20.968 --> 00:19:21.468
They were,

00:19:21.488 --> 00:19:22.409
I don't know if they still are,

00:19:22.429 --> 00:19:23.789
but they were sponsoring surveillance

00:19:23.809 --> 00:19:24.970
support back when I was on surveillance

00:19:24.990 --> 00:19:25.250
support.

00:19:25.711 --> 00:19:27.050
Um, but apparently, yeah,

00:19:27.090 --> 00:19:28.652
he discovered this vulnerability and they

00:19:28.672 --> 00:19:29.951
have not disclosed it because they said

00:19:29.991 --> 00:19:31.731
that Apple hasn't fixed it yet.

00:19:32.332 --> 00:19:33.311
And I think that's kind of part of

00:19:33.332 --> 00:19:34.051
what this article is,

00:19:34.071 --> 00:19:35.192
is I think four Oh four is kind

00:19:35.212 --> 00:19:37.673
of teaming up with Tyler to like pressure

00:19:37.792 --> 00:19:39.113
Apple into fixing this,

00:19:39.153 --> 00:19:40.394
because I think they said they reached out

00:19:40.413 --> 00:19:42.534
like all the way back in may and

00:19:42.614 --> 00:19:43.854
Apple was like, Oh, okay, thanks.

00:19:43.874 --> 00:19:44.513
We'll fix this.

00:19:44.534 --> 00:19:45.814
And then like stopped responding.

00:19:45.894 --> 00:19:47.174
So, um,

00:19:47.234 --> 00:19:48.855
we don't know exactly what this is or

00:19:48.914 --> 00:19:49.654
how it works,

00:19:49.934 --> 00:19:52.675
but I think this was an interesting story

00:19:52.695 --> 00:19:54.355
to cover because, um,

00:19:54.915 --> 00:19:55.797
Um, you know,

00:19:55.876 --> 00:19:57.378
email aliasing is definitely getting a lot

00:19:57.419 --> 00:19:57.979
more popular.

00:19:58.019 --> 00:20:00.442
We're seeing more, um, like IVPN,

00:20:00.481 --> 00:20:03.045
I think has an email aliasing service now

00:20:03.164 --> 00:20:04.865
and AdGuard has an aliasing service.

00:20:05.326 --> 00:20:06.807
And of course there's like Firefox relay,

00:20:06.847 --> 00:20:08.690
simple login, Addy.io.

00:20:08.750 --> 00:20:09.111
There's just,

00:20:09.550 --> 00:20:10.692
it's becoming more and more common.

00:20:10.711 --> 00:20:11.993
And I think Apple's introduction of this

00:20:12.054 --> 00:20:15.798
really kind of shot it into a mainstream

00:20:15.817 --> 00:20:16.258
attention.

00:20:16.698 --> 00:20:17.338
Um, yeah.

00:20:18.460 --> 00:20:19.201
So yeah,

00:20:19.580 --> 00:20:21.682
it kind of defeats the whole purpose if

00:20:21.721 --> 00:20:23.864
people can easily figure out a way around

00:20:23.903 --> 00:20:24.183
this.

00:20:24.884 --> 00:20:27.086
And I don't know,

00:20:27.145 --> 00:20:28.606
I guess I've seen some discussions.

00:20:28.646 --> 00:20:30.127
Do you happen to know, Jordan?

00:20:30.208 --> 00:20:30.587
I mean, again,

00:20:30.607 --> 00:20:32.028
we don't know the exact vulnerability,

00:20:32.088 --> 00:20:33.349
but I know some of the people in

00:20:33.369 --> 00:20:34.590
the comments of this article were

00:20:34.611 --> 00:20:35.250
wondering, like,

00:20:35.510 --> 00:20:37.633
do we think this might apply to some

00:20:37.653 --> 00:20:38.853
of the services we do recommend,

00:20:38.893 --> 00:20:40.875
like SimpleLogin or anything like that?

00:20:43.056 --> 00:20:44.896
I have a feeling that the way that

00:20:44.977 --> 00:20:45.978
this works

00:20:46.570 --> 00:20:49.791
vulnerability works is somehow tied back

00:20:49.852 --> 00:20:53.073
to the Apple account itself,

00:20:53.452 --> 00:20:54.334
like the Apple ID,

00:20:54.354 --> 00:20:58.375
because the way that the hide my email

00:20:58.494 --> 00:21:02.096
aliases are created is tied to your iCloud

00:21:02.115 --> 00:21:02.556
account.

00:21:04.277 --> 00:21:05.336
I have a feeling it's something to do

00:21:05.356 --> 00:21:08.278
with that, but I could be wrong,

00:21:08.897 --> 00:21:09.239
obviously,

00:21:09.259 --> 00:21:10.138
because they're not revealing

00:21:11.505 --> 00:21:12.164
what it actually,

00:21:12.325 --> 00:21:13.726
what actually is the problem here.

00:21:13.766 --> 00:21:15.406
They're just saying that it's,

00:21:15.426 --> 00:21:16.426
that it might be possible.

00:21:16.527 --> 00:21:18.968
So yeah, it's not, we don't have,

00:21:19.388 --> 00:21:19.548
I mean,

00:21:19.669 --> 00:21:21.288
I can't see what's in this article,

00:21:21.348 --> 00:21:21.809
but like,

00:21:22.130 --> 00:21:23.670
it sounds like there isn't a whole lot

00:21:23.690 --> 00:21:25.810
of information in addition to that.

00:21:27.031 --> 00:21:28.492
Well, Joseph here in the comments,

00:21:28.532 --> 00:21:29.833
I'm scrolling through the comments of the

00:21:29.873 --> 00:21:30.913
article and Joseph Cox,

00:21:30.953 --> 00:21:33.035
the author said that, uh,

00:21:33.055 --> 00:21:34.654
it reveals the email link to the Apple

00:21:34.714 --> 00:21:35.016
ID.

00:21:35.056 --> 00:21:37.396
So I think you might be onto something

00:21:37.477 --> 00:21:37.957
with that.

00:21:40.874 --> 00:21:44.938
yeah um i think you know we've never

00:21:45.018 --> 00:21:46.739
we've never recommended apple's hide my

00:21:46.818 --> 00:21:50.001
email so you know it's not like this

00:21:50.162 --> 00:21:51.884
is a direct threat to people in our

00:21:51.903 --> 00:21:54.326
community but i can't i can say that

00:21:54.445 --> 00:21:57.088
i've used hide my email stuff just because

00:21:57.128 --> 00:21:58.809
it was convenient like signing up to a

00:21:58.869 --> 00:22:00.771
new account with like my apple account and

00:22:00.811 --> 00:22:01.833
stuff like that um

00:22:03.242 --> 00:22:03.983
I've used it before.

00:22:04.124 --> 00:22:05.183
So, you know,

00:22:05.223 --> 00:22:08.547
maybe someone can find my real email

00:22:08.567 --> 00:22:10.407
address or something, but I mean,

00:22:10.448 --> 00:22:12.888
I don't think it's a huge issue,

00:22:12.949 --> 00:22:14.410
but I can see how this would be

00:22:14.470 --> 00:22:15.230
kind of a problem,

00:22:15.290 --> 00:22:16.832
especially if you're like a whistleblower

00:22:16.892 --> 00:22:18.972
or like someone doing something a little

00:22:18.992 --> 00:22:21.154
bit, you know,

00:22:21.434 --> 00:22:22.615
you don't want something tied back to your

00:22:22.655 --> 00:22:23.155
identity.

00:22:23.276 --> 00:22:24.156
So it's,

00:22:25.737 --> 00:22:27.397
Yeah, it's not really great,

00:22:27.438 --> 00:22:29.539
especially when that's kind of implied

00:22:29.579 --> 00:22:30.381
with the service.

00:22:30.661 --> 00:22:32.061
It's called hide my email.

00:22:32.082 --> 00:22:33.123
It's literally in the name.

00:22:33.182 --> 00:22:34.564
So if it can't do what's in the

00:22:34.584 --> 00:22:36.045
name, then that's a bit of a problem.

00:22:37.645 --> 00:22:40.307
So I'm not really sure what the outcome

00:22:40.327 --> 00:22:41.169
of this is going to be,

00:22:41.269 --> 00:22:48.294
but we can kind of circle back to

00:22:48.375 --> 00:22:49.214
our website here.

00:22:51.593 --> 00:22:54.121
And we do recommend a couple of different

00:22:54.181 --> 00:22:55.545
email aliasing services,

00:22:55.625 --> 00:22:55.826
so

00:22:57.130 --> 00:22:58.351
You can kind of take your pick,

00:22:58.391 --> 00:22:58.810
I guess.

00:23:00.632 --> 00:23:01.771
So I guess first off,

00:23:01.791 --> 00:23:05.153
we recommend Addy.io and SimpleLogin.

00:23:05.233 --> 00:23:08.336
There might be more added at some point,

00:23:08.375 --> 00:23:11.998
but this is kind of what things are

00:23:12.018 --> 00:23:13.278
looking like at the moment.

00:23:14.179 --> 00:23:17.380
Addy.io is a free service,

00:23:17.400 --> 00:23:18.381
same as SimpleLogin,

00:23:18.421 --> 00:23:21.382
but they limit some of the requirements.

00:23:23.703 --> 00:23:24.223
I think it's...

00:23:25.571 --> 00:23:27.813
you get like ten domain aliases on Addy

00:23:28.294 --> 00:23:30.394
and you get like ten on SimpleLogin as

00:23:30.474 --> 00:23:30.815
well.

00:23:31.255 --> 00:23:32.115
So, you know,

00:23:32.695 --> 00:23:34.156
you've got some options definitely.

00:23:34.477 --> 00:23:37.960
And I think, you know,

00:23:38.180 --> 00:23:39.881
maybe it's time to switch away from

00:23:39.961 --> 00:23:41.781
Apple's closed ecosystem.

00:23:41.902 --> 00:23:43.222
I think usually they're pretty good on

00:23:43.262 --> 00:23:44.963
privacy related stuff like this.

00:23:45.044 --> 00:23:46.265
So I think they'll fix it.

00:23:46.384 --> 00:23:49.246
But it could be a better time to

00:23:49.346 --> 00:23:50.047
start looking at

00:23:51.974 --> 00:23:53.476
better alternatives.

00:23:53.695 --> 00:23:55.997
And I think one benefit of Addy.io and

00:23:56.336 --> 00:23:58.417
simple login, at least the paid plans,

00:23:58.538 --> 00:24:01.999
is you can send emails to any address

00:24:02.098 --> 00:24:03.338
from any of your aliases,

00:24:03.378 --> 00:24:04.920
which is something you can't do with

00:24:05.599 --> 00:24:06.861
Apple's hide my email,

00:24:06.901 --> 00:24:08.480
which I found really annoying.

00:24:08.862 --> 00:24:11.402
So don't make that mistake.

00:24:11.823 --> 00:24:12.942
But yeah,

00:24:13.063 --> 00:24:14.463
so that's kind of what we recommend.

00:24:14.683 --> 00:24:15.124
I would say

00:24:16.721 --> 00:24:18.182
There's no need to panic at this point

00:24:18.222 --> 00:24:19.785
because as far as we know,

00:24:19.845 --> 00:24:22.188
it's not publicly disclosed or anything

00:24:22.229 --> 00:24:22.669
like that.

00:24:23.650 --> 00:24:25.011
Apple is usually pretty quick,

00:24:25.071 --> 00:24:27.295
but we'll probably have an update for that

00:24:27.455 --> 00:24:30.440
next week if Apple does actually decide to

00:24:30.599 --> 00:24:31.902
change this.

00:24:36.080 --> 00:24:37.000
Yeah, for sure.

00:24:37.582 --> 00:24:38.461
We'll keep people updated.

00:24:38.481 --> 00:24:38.701
But yeah,

00:24:38.741 --> 00:24:39.823
I think we just wanted to include this

00:24:39.843 --> 00:24:41.502
story because I know hide my is kind

00:24:41.522 --> 00:24:42.042
of popular.

00:24:42.463 --> 00:24:45.204
There are some people who still use Apple

00:24:45.224 --> 00:24:46.325
for any number of reasons.

00:24:46.424 --> 00:24:46.924
And they're like, well,

00:24:46.944 --> 00:24:47.705
I'm already using Apple.

00:24:47.766 --> 00:24:48.865
I'll go ahead and use the hide my

00:24:48.885 --> 00:24:49.846
thing because it's so cheap.

00:24:49.866 --> 00:24:50.807
So it's important to know that.

00:24:51.655 --> 00:24:52.477
Um,

00:24:52.557 --> 00:24:53.698
I will call out a couple of quick

00:24:53.738 --> 00:24:54.077
comments.

00:24:54.097 --> 00:24:55.259
Like Cisco here said,

00:24:55.278 --> 00:24:56.440
I've been buying a custom domain and

00:24:56.460 --> 00:24:57.580
having a catch all email address.

00:24:57.921 --> 00:24:59.761
Honestly, I, I do the same thing.

00:24:59.821 --> 00:25:00.482
I really like it.

00:25:00.623 --> 00:25:01.844
I have a custom domain that I use

00:25:01.864 --> 00:25:04.546
through simple login and, um, yeah,

00:25:04.685 --> 00:25:05.727
I can just make things up on the

00:25:05.767 --> 00:25:07.228
spot or, uh, whatever.

00:25:07.327 --> 00:25:08.148
And personally,

00:25:08.288 --> 00:25:10.089
I like that because if simple login ever

00:25:10.270 --> 00:25:10.871
in shitifies,

00:25:10.990 --> 00:25:12.092
I can go to Addy or I can

00:25:12.132 --> 00:25:13.813
go to, you know, uh,

00:25:13.873 --> 00:25:15.314
whatever the one from IVPN is called that

00:25:15.335 --> 00:25:15.775
I keep forgetting.

00:25:15.795 --> 00:25:17.076
Like I can, I can switch very,

00:25:17.115 --> 00:25:19.136
very easily, which I think is cool.

00:25:19.357 --> 00:25:19.518
Um,

00:25:20.768 --> 00:25:22.890
And then Dag Overhaul here said,

00:25:22.970 --> 00:25:24.211
use aliases for spam control,

00:25:24.270 --> 00:25:24.912
not anonymity.

00:25:25.732 --> 00:25:27.334
I don't... He says,

00:25:27.354 --> 00:25:28.536
make them forward to an anonymous email

00:25:28.556 --> 00:25:28.816
address.

00:25:29.236 --> 00:25:30.958
I mean, yeah.

00:25:31.038 --> 00:25:31.198
I mean,

00:25:31.238 --> 00:25:32.459
I guess if you want to go hardcore,

00:25:33.480 --> 00:25:34.520
I want to nitpick a little bit and

00:25:34.540 --> 00:25:36.202
point out that anonymity is not privacy.

00:25:36.262 --> 00:25:38.345
And the idea of privacy is to be

00:25:38.384 --> 00:25:39.906
able to control who has access to your

00:25:39.946 --> 00:25:40.227
data.

00:25:40.287 --> 00:25:41.347
And that's the whole idea is like,

00:25:41.367 --> 00:25:42.729
you're not supposed to be able to see...

00:25:43.589 --> 00:25:44.430
the main email address.

00:25:44.450 --> 00:25:45.631
Like, that is the one job.

00:25:45.951 --> 00:25:48.832
That is the whole job of alias emails.

00:25:48.872 --> 00:25:50.873
So, I mean, that's certainly a way,

00:25:52.513 --> 00:25:54.334
a very advanced technique if you're super

00:25:54.394 --> 00:25:55.115
concerned about it.

00:25:56.015 --> 00:25:57.955
But, yeah.

00:25:57.976 --> 00:25:58.836
MailX, thank you.

00:25:59.176 --> 00:26:01.217
You just posted that in the chat.

00:26:01.277 --> 00:26:02.758
And yeah, DuckDuckGo is also an option.

00:26:03.357 --> 00:26:04.818
I found it difficult to use personally,

00:26:04.939 --> 00:26:05.098
but

00:26:06.288 --> 00:26:06.469
Yeah,

00:26:06.489 --> 00:26:08.171
you kind of need a third party extension

00:26:08.211 --> 00:26:10.051
to make DuckDuckGoesOne work well,

00:26:11.272 --> 00:26:13.054
which probably is not a good sign.

00:26:13.114 --> 00:26:14.796
But someone asked,

00:26:14.855 --> 00:26:16.017
what's up with the floating head?

00:26:18.117 --> 00:26:19.138
Privacy, I guess.

00:26:19.960 --> 00:26:20.599
I don't know what to say.

00:26:20.940 --> 00:26:22.040
This is the privacy channel.

00:26:22.221 --> 00:26:23.162
You should know why.

00:26:25.624 --> 00:26:27.164
But yeah, that's the reason.

00:26:27.865 --> 00:26:28.987
Just don't want to show my face if

00:26:29.047 --> 00:26:29.527
I can avoid it.

00:26:31.521 --> 00:26:31.741
And yeah,

00:26:31.761 --> 00:26:32.863
I don't really have much more to add

00:26:32.903 --> 00:26:33.163
here,

00:26:33.603 --> 00:26:35.684
unless you want to talk a little bit

00:26:35.724 --> 00:26:35.984
more,

00:26:36.065 --> 00:26:38.786
but could jump into this next story here.

00:26:40.346 --> 00:26:41.008
Sure thing.

00:26:41.788 --> 00:26:42.969
Do you want me to take this next

00:26:43.169 --> 00:26:43.368
one?

00:26:44.470 --> 00:26:45.971
Or would you prefer to take it?

00:26:47.089 --> 00:26:49.892
How about I give the rundown quickly and

00:26:49.951 --> 00:26:51.913
you can add some of your U.S.

00:26:52.012 --> 00:26:53.492
perspective because I think you're going

00:26:53.512 --> 00:26:54.993
to have a lot more to talk about

00:26:55.034 --> 00:26:55.513
on this one.

00:26:55.534 --> 00:26:59.717
Supreme Court ruling guts government's use

00:26:59.777 --> 00:27:01.017
of geofence warrants.

00:27:01.616 --> 00:27:04.239
SCOTUS falls short of deeming geofence

00:27:04.278 --> 00:27:06.019
warrants unconstitutional, though.

00:27:06.839 --> 00:27:08.980
The Fourth Amendment protects the user's

00:27:09.141 --> 00:27:10.342
location history.

00:27:10.821 --> 00:27:12.762
The Supreme Court ruled on Monday.

00:27:13.002 --> 00:27:14.924
The same logic already applied to a cell

00:27:14.944 --> 00:27:15.644
phone's tracking,

00:27:16.045 --> 00:27:17.866
and the High Court found no good reason

00:27:17.946 --> 00:27:20.228
exists to reach a different result for

00:27:20.268 --> 00:27:22.809
location history collected by third

00:27:22.829 --> 00:27:24.310
parties like Google.

00:27:24.750 --> 00:27:25.751
Split six three,

00:27:26.172 --> 00:27:28.012
the majority agreed that the government

00:27:28.053 --> 00:27:30.194
needs a warrant and must show reasonable

00:27:30.234 --> 00:27:32.415
cause to turn a phone's location tracking

00:27:32.455 --> 00:27:35.157
services into a government surveillance

00:27:35.198 --> 00:27:35.397
tool.

00:27:37.464 --> 00:27:39.227
So the decision came in a case where

00:27:39.267 --> 00:27:42.009
cops used a so-called geofence warrant to

00:27:42.068 --> 00:27:43.970
track down an armed bank robber from a

00:27:44.009 --> 00:27:46.112
list of all phones logged in the area.

00:27:46.771 --> 00:27:48.673
Applying a three-part process,

00:27:48.894 --> 00:27:51.056
cops worked with Google to narrow down the

00:27:51.096 --> 00:27:53.537
list of suspects and eventually arrested

00:27:53.617 --> 00:27:54.798
Akello Chatri,

00:27:55.199 --> 00:27:57.299
who had opted in to share his location

00:27:57.359 --> 00:27:59.342
with Google every few minutes.

00:27:59.922 --> 00:28:01.903
Chatri was sentenced to twelve years in

00:28:01.963 --> 00:28:03.944
prison but challenged the geofence warrant

00:28:04.005 --> 00:28:05.787
as an unconstitutional search.

00:28:07.162 --> 00:28:09.743
So the US tried and failed to argue

00:28:09.785 --> 00:28:11.425
that no search was conducted under the

00:28:11.465 --> 00:28:12.126
Fourth Amendment,

00:28:12.166 --> 00:28:14.509
partly because they only searched a little

00:28:14.548 --> 00:28:16.691
bit of Chowdhury's location data,

00:28:16.730 --> 00:28:18.952
which the government considered too small

00:28:19.012 --> 00:28:20.875
to warrant privacy protections.

00:28:21.335 --> 00:28:23.457
They also claimed that Chowdhury was aware

00:28:23.616 --> 00:28:25.499
that voluntarily sharing his location with

00:28:25.538 --> 00:28:27.701
Google could mean that law enforcement

00:28:27.760 --> 00:28:28.701
might get access

00:28:29.122 --> 00:28:31.423
to the data and along similar lines the

00:28:31.483 --> 00:28:33.365
government argued that Chatterjee's data

00:28:33.505 --> 00:28:35.685
simply showed his movements in public

00:28:36.145 --> 00:28:38.428
where he supposedly had no reasonable

00:28:38.548 --> 00:28:43.131
expectation of privacy okay so I guess

00:28:43.151 --> 00:28:45.132
that's like the main rundown of this um

00:28:46.573 --> 00:28:47.252
Unless you have, like,

00:28:47.333 --> 00:28:49.314
it definitely goes on a lot more.

00:28:49.894 --> 00:28:51.054
So I don't know if you have more

00:28:51.075 --> 00:28:51.714
to add on this.

00:28:52.454 --> 00:28:53.234
I mean, of course you do.

00:28:54.035 --> 00:28:56.236
So what are your thoughts on this?

00:28:58.457 --> 00:29:00.978
Yeah, I do want to...

00:29:03.040 --> 00:29:03.421
Real quick,

00:29:03.520 --> 00:29:04.902
I do want to run through what the

00:29:04.942 --> 00:29:07.643
judge said, because I think it was really,

00:29:08.743 --> 00:29:09.744
it's one of those things where it's like,

00:29:09.765 --> 00:29:11.464
oh, you're so close to getting the point.

00:29:12.445 --> 00:29:13.906
She said that Google repeatedly prompts

00:29:13.987 --> 00:29:14.987
users to turn on the service,

00:29:15.106 --> 00:29:16.607
often warning that their devices will not

00:29:16.647 --> 00:29:17.788
work correctly otherwise,

00:29:18.048 --> 00:29:19.670
while not disclosing in that prompt how

00:29:19.710 --> 00:29:21.171
frequently location information would be

00:29:21.230 --> 00:29:22.411
recorded, how precise it would be,

00:29:22.750 --> 00:29:23.652
or how it might be given to the

00:29:23.672 --> 00:29:24.011
government.

00:29:24.892 --> 00:29:26.113
She said that much like carrying a cell

00:29:26.133 --> 00:29:27.054
phone is part of modern life,

00:29:27.074 --> 00:29:28.493
sewing is allowing a third party to track

00:29:28.513 --> 00:29:28.954
your movements,

00:29:29.015 --> 00:29:30.394
and that doesn't diminish a person's right

00:29:30.414 --> 00:29:30.976
to privacy.

00:29:31.715 --> 00:29:36.900
And then Justice Sonia Sotomayor noted

00:29:37.441 --> 00:29:38.922
that even short-term monitoring of a

00:29:38.961 --> 00:29:40.403
person can reveal a wealth of details

00:29:40.423 --> 00:29:42.404
about his family, political, professional,

00:29:42.424 --> 00:29:44.125
religious, and sexual associations,

00:29:44.465 --> 00:29:45.527
particularly if he's been visiting

00:29:45.567 --> 00:29:46.788
sensitive locations like a clinic,

00:29:46.827 --> 00:29:47.969
attorney's office, or strip club.

00:29:50.000 --> 00:29:51.580
Yeah, so I mean, it's really like,

00:29:51.641 --> 00:29:52.641
it's one of those, it's like, oh,

00:29:53.020 --> 00:29:53.902
you get the point.

00:29:53.942 --> 00:29:55.701
Come on, like, just take it further.

00:29:55.761 --> 00:29:57.423
But yeah, it's, I mean,

00:29:57.722 --> 00:29:59.163
that's kind of all it is right there,

00:29:59.223 --> 00:29:59.483
I guess,

00:29:59.503 --> 00:30:01.325
is the police tried to be like, oh,

00:30:01.365 --> 00:30:02.244
but it's, you know,

00:30:02.265 --> 00:30:03.205
he's moving around in public,

00:30:03.246 --> 00:30:03.885
like that whole, you know,

00:30:04.066 --> 00:30:05.446
no expectation of privacy thing.

00:30:05.467 --> 00:30:07.487
And I think they even tried to make

00:30:07.507 --> 00:30:07.887
the argument.

00:30:07.928 --> 00:30:08.968
So like the police tried to make the

00:30:09.008 --> 00:30:09.748
argument that it's like,

00:30:10.929 --> 00:30:12.789
the phone itself has no expectation of

00:30:12.829 --> 00:30:13.230
privacy.

00:30:15.528 --> 00:30:16.489
or something like, no,

00:30:16.528 --> 00:30:17.590
like the phone itself does,

00:30:17.631 --> 00:30:19.373
but the apps don't or something like that.

00:30:19.772 --> 00:30:21.134
And the Supreme court was basically like,

00:30:21.174 --> 00:30:22.936
yeah, but let's be real.

00:30:23.017 --> 00:30:24.159
We live in an age of smartphones.

00:30:24.179 --> 00:30:25.220
Like who's not going to have apps on

00:30:25.240 --> 00:30:25.559
their phone.

00:30:25.579 --> 00:30:26.741
That's the stupidest argument I've ever

00:30:26.761 --> 00:30:26.961
heard.

00:30:27.382 --> 00:30:29.204
So, um, I'm not,

00:30:31.823 --> 00:30:33.463
The Supreme Court surprises me in a good

00:30:33.483 --> 00:30:34.064
way sometimes.

00:30:34.144 --> 00:30:34.744
I'll just say that.

00:30:35.845 --> 00:30:37.566
Yeah, I think my only other thought is,

00:30:37.586 --> 00:30:38.465
you know, at the very beginning,

00:30:38.506 --> 00:30:39.866
that little subheader, it said, like,

00:30:40.487 --> 00:30:42.167
the Supreme Court falls short of deeming

00:30:42.188 --> 00:30:43.769
geofence warrants unconstitutional.

00:30:44.348 --> 00:30:47.151
And I think that is an important thing

00:30:47.191 --> 00:30:47.730
to know, is, like,

00:30:47.770 --> 00:30:49.432
this doesn't ban geofence warrants.

00:30:50.011 --> 00:30:52.574
But I think this might almost be...

00:30:53.955 --> 00:30:55.757
better I'm not a lawyer and I would

00:30:55.856 --> 00:30:57.878
happily welcome any input from actual

00:30:57.919 --> 00:30:59.880
lawyers on whether I'm right or wrong but

00:30:59.900 --> 00:31:01.201
I feel like this is almost better because

00:31:01.221 --> 00:31:03.001
like saying that geofence warrants are

00:31:03.061 --> 00:31:04.903
unconstitutional I feel like would be

00:31:05.563 --> 00:31:07.244
relatively limited like the way US law

00:31:07.265 --> 00:31:08.365
works is you can always cite that as

00:31:08.404 --> 00:31:10.066
precedent in other case and expand it and

00:31:10.105 --> 00:31:11.988
stuff like that but I feel like like

00:31:12.028 --> 00:31:14.009
that was still much more limited as

00:31:14.048 --> 00:31:16.069
opposed to this where it applied to like

00:31:16.509 --> 00:31:19.372
third party collection of location history

00:31:19.491 --> 00:31:21.153
I feel like just is so much more

00:31:21.192 --> 00:31:22.994
broadly applicable so I'm kind of hoping

00:31:23.994 --> 00:31:25.915
This is almost like in the long run

00:31:26.016 --> 00:31:27.817
an even bigger win because it can apply

00:31:27.836 --> 00:31:28.777
to so many other things.

00:31:29.877 --> 00:31:30.637
Again, not a lawyer.

00:31:30.837 --> 00:31:32.598
Happy to hear from any lawyers out there

00:31:32.618 --> 00:31:33.278
if I'm right or wrong.

00:31:33.398 --> 00:31:35.119
But I think that was my only other

00:31:35.460 --> 00:31:37.661
thought that I wanted to add.

00:31:37.681 --> 00:31:40.481
I guess like this kind of makes me

00:31:40.521 --> 00:31:44.124
think, does this apply to, you know,

00:31:45.503 --> 00:31:46.944
other data collection?

00:31:48.025 --> 00:31:50.205
Could this apply to Stingrays being used

00:31:50.246 --> 00:31:52.366
to collect IMEI numbers?

00:31:52.467 --> 00:31:55.167
Or could this affect Facebook or any other

00:31:55.208 --> 00:31:55.587
company?

00:31:55.667 --> 00:31:58.929
Or is this specifically about Google's

00:31:58.949 --> 00:31:59.769
location tracking?

00:31:59.909 --> 00:32:02.970
Or is this just like...

00:32:02.990 --> 00:32:04.191
That's a great question.

00:32:04.310 --> 00:32:04.510
I mean,

00:32:04.570 --> 00:32:06.412
the article said third parties like

00:32:06.551 --> 00:32:06.912
Google.

00:32:08.181 --> 00:32:08.580
Um,

00:32:08.601 --> 00:32:09.761
they said the fourth amendment protects

00:32:09.781 --> 00:32:11.564
the user's location history and the same

00:32:11.604 --> 00:32:13.184
logic applies to a cell phone's tracking

00:32:13.826 --> 00:32:15.527
and no good reason exists to reach a

00:32:15.567 --> 00:32:17.127
different result for location history.

00:32:17.769 --> 00:32:19.369
Um, so my thought would be,

00:32:19.390 --> 00:32:20.471
I don't know about the stingrays cause I

00:32:20.490 --> 00:32:21.592
feel like that's probably like a law

00:32:21.612 --> 00:32:22.833
enforcement exception kind of thing,

00:32:22.853 --> 00:32:24.094
which I mean, granted,

00:32:24.213 --> 00:32:25.253
I guess they didn't do here with the

00:32:25.294 --> 00:32:26.895
geofence warrants, but my,

00:32:26.976 --> 00:32:28.237
my guess would be if anything,

00:32:28.396 --> 00:32:31.519
this will only apply to location data

00:32:32.220 --> 00:32:32.779
until,

00:32:33.201 --> 00:32:34.260
cause that's kind of the way that us

00:32:34.300 --> 00:32:36.103
law works is like everything is built

00:32:36.182 --> 00:32:36.303
based

00:32:37.701 --> 00:32:38.521
by cases.

00:32:38.862 --> 00:32:40.423
And, um, I mean,

00:32:40.442 --> 00:32:41.242
I don't want to go on too long,

00:32:41.262 --> 00:32:42.363
but basically that's why it's so

00:32:42.423 --> 00:32:42.782
important.

00:32:42.823 --> 00:32:43.903
It's so strategic to like,

00:32:44.263 --> 00:32:45.163
see if we can get this in front

00:32:45.183 --> 00:32:45.644
of the Supreme court.

00:32:45.663 --> 00:32:46.223
I think, uh,

00:32:46.304 --> 00:32:47.644
Cindy Cohen talks about this in her book,

00:32:47.724 --> 00:32:48.785
actually privacy is defender.

00:32:49.164 --> 00:32:50.566
Like you want to get a judge who's

00:32:50.586 --> 00:32:53.086
sympathetic to your case because once they

00:32:53.125 --> 00:32:53.846
hand out a ruling,

00:32:53.926 --> 00:32:55.906
there's certain criteria that makes

00:32:55.946 --> 00:32:57.548
something legal precedent that I learned

00:32:57.567 --> 00:32:58.028
from her book.

00:32:58.067 --> 00:32:59.688
And anyways, long story short, it's like,

00:32:59.708 --> 00:33:01.509
basically it's not always enough to just

00:33:01.528 --> 00:33:02.628
be like, well, here's what the law says.

00:33:02.868 --> 00:33:04.628
The court has to interpret it and deliver

00:33:04.648 --> 00:33:04.669
a

00:33:06.650 --> 00:33:08.511
affirms or clarifies that law.

00:33:09.031 --> 00:33:10.073
So I feel like it's one of those

00:33:10.113 --> 00:33:10.813
things that like, okay,

00:33:10.873 --> 00:33:12.575
location history is more or less settled

00:33:12.615 --> 00:33:12.835
now,

00:33:13.255 --> 00:33:15.016
but all the other things like messages,

00:33:15.056 --> 00:33:17.057
metadata, timestamps,

00:33:17.097 --> 00:33:18.519
like those things are probably not

00:33:19.039 --> 00:33:21.480
protected until somebody comes along and

00:33:21.520 --> 00:33:23.762
has a case, a precedent setting case.

00:33:24.042 --> 00:33:24.723
That would be my guess.

00:33:24.743 --> 00:33:24.824
Okay.

00:33:24.844 --> 00:33:29.027
So like, you know,

00:33:29.106 --> 00:33:30.288
all the other data that's collected by the

00:33:30.347 --> 00:33:33.770
apps on your phone can be hoovered up

00:33:33.790 --> 00:33:35.071
by this is what you're saying.

00:33:35.092 --> 00:33:35.432
Exactly.

00:33:36.010 --> 00:33:36.711
That would be my guess.

00:33:36.811 --> 00:33:37.593
Again, not a lawyer,

00:33:37.633 --> 00:33:38.753
but as I understand it,

00:33:39.153 --> 00:33:40.335
that's probably how it's going to work,

00:33:40.796 --> 00:33:43.758
at least until further notice.

00:33:43.798 --> 00:33:46.320
Well, I think we take these wins.

00:33:47.561 --> 00:33:48.603
This is a win, I think.

00:33:49.804 --> 00:33:50.163
Definitely.

00:33:50.223 --> 00:33:51.384
That's why I wanted to include this story.

00:33:51.464 --> 00:33:52.365
We get so few wins.

00:33:52.405 --> 00:33:52.926
It's like, you know what?

00:33:52.967 --> 00:33:53.467
I'll take it.

00:33:53.507 --> 00:33:54.288
This is a good one.

00:33:55.868 --> 00:33:56.230
True.

00:33:56.589 --> 00:33:57.330
Yeah, that's good.

00:33:58.865 --> 00:33:59.346
So real quick,

00:33:59.365 --> 00:34:00.787
want to point out a dag here said

00:34:00.846 --> 00:34:02.267
robbing a bank while carrying a phone with

00:34:02.326 --> 00:34:03.827
location sharing enabled smart guy.

00:34:03.948 --> 00:34:04.567
I know, right?

00:34:04.607 --> 00:34:07.189
Like everybody knows that phones, even,

00:34:07.348 --> 00:34:07.969
even quote unquote,

00:34:08.028 --> 00:34:09.630
normies know that your phone is constantly

00:34:09.690 --> 00:34:10.269
spying on you.

00:34:10.289 --> 00:34:11.871
Like what idiot brings their phone to rob

00:34:11.911 --> 00:34:12.251
a bank?

00:34:12.291 --> 00:34:12.911
That's insane.

00:34:14.211 --> 00:34:14.351
Yeah.

00:34:14.371 --> 00:34:16.472
They're basically like tracking devices at

00:34:16.492 --> 00:34:16.952
this point.

00:34:16.972 --> 00:34:20.934
So it's a bit, uh, I mean,

00:34:20.954 --> 00:34:22.355
maybe it's a spur of the moment thing,

00:34:22.574 --> 00:34:22.815
you know?

00:34:26.108 --> 00:34:26.369
Maybe.

00:34:26.509 --> 00:34:27.269
I've heard weirder things.

00:34:29.771 --> 00:34:31.914
But I think that will take us into

00:34:32.713 --> 00:34:33.474
site updates,

00:34:33.534 --> 00:34:34.596
unless you have anything to add to this

00:34:34.615 --> 00:34:34.936
story.

00:34:36.356 --> 00:34:37.117
No, let's dive in.

00:34:38.278 --> 00:34:39.079
Alrighty, yeah.

00:34:39.139 --> 00:34:39.980
So in a little bit,

00:34:40.000 --> 00:34:41.681
we're going to talk about surprise flock

00:34:41.702 --> 00:34:42.302
devices,

00:34:42.501 --> 00:34:44.284
which that's going to be a fun story.

00:34:44.344 --> 00:34:46.666
But first, I mean,

00:34:47.606 --> 00:34:49.427
so I'm going to level with you guys.

00:34:49.447 --> 00:34:51.250
We actually forgot to talk about what our

00:34:51.309 --> 00:34:52.369
site updates are this week.

00:34:52.490 --> 00:34:53.911
But I know we've got a...

00:34:55.253 --> 00:34:55.673
Let's see,

00:34:56.195 --> 00:34:59.240
I know we put out a video recently

00:34:59.601 --> 00:35:03.369
and I filmed, oh my gosh,

00:35:03.409 --> 00:35:04.652
the weeks are starting to jumble together.

00:35:05.855 --> 00:35:06.295
Oh, yes.

00:35:06.376 --> 00:35:06.556
No,

00:35:06.755 --> 00:35:09.818
I filmed a video last week about some

00:35:09.998 --> 00:35:11.760
NSA history and the crypto wars.

00:35:11.940 --> 00:35:14.201
And I think that is over with Jordan

00:35:14.242 --> 00:35:16.523
now for the good editing.

00:35:16.702 --> 00:35:17.704
I think I've told you guys this before.

00:35:17.724 --> 00:35:18.784
I do like the rough edit where I

00:35:18.804 --> 00:35:20.065
cut out all the long pauses and the

00:35:20.085 --> 00:35:20.525
stutters.

00:35:20.885 --> 00:35:22.407
But Jordan is the rock star who adds

00:35:22.507 --> 00:35:24.849
all the special effects and the graphics.

00:35:24.909 --> 00:35:27.030
And so I'm really excited to see how

00:35:27.050 --> 00:35:27.911
that's going to turn out.

00:35:27.952 --> 00:35:29.112
That's going to be super awesome.

00:35:30.112 --> 00:35:31.434
Um, but honestly, it's been kind of a,

00:35:31.815 --> 00:35:33.137
one of those slower weeks where it's all

00:35:33.197 --> 00:35:34.719
stuff happening behind the scenes.

00:35:35.360 --> 00:35:35.681
Um,

00:35:35.701 --> 00:35:36.702
so I don't know if I have too

00:35:36.742 --> 00:35:39.786
much more to add other than that.

00:35:40.106 --> 00:35:42.329
Um, have you guys done anything, Jordan?

00:35:42.389 --> 00:35:44.032
I think you and Jonah have been working

00:35:44.052 --> 00:35:44.572
on a project,

00:35:44.592 --> 00:35:45.855
but I don't know if it's published yet.

00:35:47.574 --> 00:35:47.875
Yeah,

00:35:47.974 --> 00:35:52.835
so Jonah did sit down with Rudy Wang,

00:35:52.876 --> 00:35:55.577
who's the product manager at Cape,

00:35:56.217 --> 00:35:58.577
Cape Mobile, which is like, I guess,

00:35:58.597 --> 00:36:00.579
for people that are not super aware

00:36:00.619 --> 00:36:01.259
because, you know,

00:36:01.278 --> 00:36:04.619
we kind of wanted to make people aware

00:36:04.639 --> 00:36:06.059
of it or at least answer a lot

00:36:06.099 --> 00:36:08.420
of people's questions because I think

00:36:08.541 --> 00:36:09.240
people are

00:36:10.242 --> 00:36:12.784
rightfully so quite suspicious about this

00:36:12.804 --> 00:36:14.324
sort of service you know you see like

00:36:14.344 --> 00:36:17.327
this this so-called private and secure

00:36:17.387 --> 00:36:20.849
mobile carrier it's like it looks kind of

00:36:20.929 --> 00:36:24.172
sus so you know obviously we had some

00:36:24.211 --> 00:36:25.353
questions and

00:36:26.769 --> 00:36:29.831
Jonah did a really good job of asking

00:36:29.871 --> 00:36:32.514
technical and also just general questions

00:36:32.554 --> 00:36:33.375
about the service.

00:36:34.014 --> 00:36:36.817
So hoping to get that interview out soon.

00:36:38.097 --> 00:36:38.717
It's all edited.

00:36:38.759 --> 00:36:42.141
It just needs some extra bits to make

00:36:42.161 --> 00:36:43.521
it flow together a bit,

00:36:43.601 --> 00:36:45.603
like an intro and outro and stuff like

00:36:45.643 --> 00:36:45.864
that.

00:36:47.164 --> 00:36:49.206
But otherwise, it's looking good.

00:36:50.288 --> 00:36:51.668
So hopefully we can get that out to

00:36:51.688 --> 00:36:54.472
people soon because I think that we've had

00:36:54.552 --> 00:36:59.456
so many questions about this service,

00:36:59.597 --> 00:37:00.456
especially on the forum.

00:37:00.476 --> 00:37:04.742
Like there's been a lot of questions and

00:37:04.762 --> 00:37:06.844
people being rightfully suspicious

00:37:06.903 --> 00:37:07.503
because, you know,

00:37:07.563 --> 00:37:09.947
I think when we see these new services,

00:37:10.027 --> 00:37:10.947
it's hard to...

00:37:12.889 --> 00:37:14.391
know whether they're legit or not.

00:37:14.751 --> 00:37:18.092
And I can say after watching the interview

00:37:18.193 --> 00:37:20.134
and seeing their responses to the

00:37:20.173 --> 00:37:20.695
questions,

00:37:20.755 --> 00:37:22.275
they truly do know what they're doing,

00:37:22.996 --> 00:37:24.257
which is interesting.

00:37:25.097 --> 00:37:26.458
It's not something that Privacy Guides

00:37:26.518 --> 00:37:28.079
recommends at this point, obviously,

00:37:28.719 --> 00:37:31.201
but maybe it could be at some point.

00:37:31.681 --> 00:37:32.942
It's definitely an interesting service,

00:37:33.001 --> 00:37:33.202
but

00:37:35.253 --> 00:37:36.793
It's one of these really annoying things

00:37:36.873 --> 00:37:38.875
that I think people outside the U.S.

00:37:38.994 --> 00:37:41.777
always kind of get annoyed about is all

00:37:41.817 --> 00:37:43.338
these cool privacy services.

00:37:43.378 --> 00:37:44.038
They're all U.S.

00:37:44.137 --> 00:37:49.382
only, like privacy.com, like this service,

00:37:50.021 --> 00:37:51.963
all these sort of more niche things.

00:37:53.523 --> 00:37:54.643
Voice over IP, yeah,

00:37:54.664 --> 00:37:58.746
there's just like more of an appetite for

00:37:58.766 --> 00:38:01.427
that thing in the US, which is good,

00:38:01.527 --> 00:38:02.766
because, you know,

00:38:03.007 --> 00:38:04.427
when things get popular in the US,

00:38:04.447 --> 00:38:06.047
it basically means like it'll bleed over

00:38:06.108 --> 00:38:07.248
everywhere else eventually.

00:38:09.989 --> 00:38:11.429
So, yeah, there's...

00:38:12.931 --> 00:38:15.474
That's kind of what I've been working on

00:38:15.514 --> 00:38:17.655
this week, kind of been finishing up that.

00:38:18.195 --> 00:38:21.097
I've not been super busy this week,

00:38:21.177 --> 00:38:23.478
so not a huge amount to report on.

00:38:23.639 --> 00:38:25.760
But it doesn't seem to be any site

00:38:25.800 --> 00:38:28.101
updates this week either, really.

00:38:29.362 --> 00:38:30.922
We definitely need to push through some

00:38:31.103 --> 00:38:32.543
pull requests on the website.

00:38:33.244 --> 00:38:36.666
So we'll be working on that soon.

00:38:36.786 --> 00:38:37.186
But yeah,

00:38:37.206 --> 00:38:39.628
I don't really have anything else to add.

00:38:41.849 --> 00:38:42.150
Yeah.

00:38:43.001 --> 00:38:44.202
I think last thing I can add is

00:38:44.242 --> 00:38:44.983
just as always,

00:38:45.023 --> 00:38:46.724
privacyguides.org slash news.

00:38:47.224 --> 00:38:48.846
Fria was on fire this week.

00:38:49.005 --> 00:38:52.467
We have articles about how there's a town

00:38:52.487 --> 00:38:54.010
in Massachusetts that got their flock

00:38:54.210 --> 00:38:56.251
contract canceled after public backlash.

00:38:56.311 --> 00:38:57.692
So remember that stuff does work.

00:38:58.612 --> 00:38:58.992
Um,

00:38:59.032 --> 00:39:00.954
Google is trying to make recapture even

00:39:01.014 --> 00:39:03.054
worse and something about like,

00:39:03.074 --> 00:39:04.614
I don't think it's biometric hand

00:39:04.655 --> 00:39:05.074
scanning,

00:39:05.094 --> 00:39:06.036
but they want you to like move your

00:39:06.076 --> 00:39:07.076
hands certain ways.

00:39:07.115 --> 00:39:07.936
It's so dumb.

00:39:08.556 --> 00:39:08.695
Um,

00:39:08.755 --> 00:39:11.157
brave is adding containers to the browser

00:39:11.197 --> 00:39:11.976
if you're a brave user.

00:39:12.057 --> 00:39:13.157
So yeah, lots of, uh,

00:39:13.856 --> 00:39:14.597
Really cool stuff.

00:39:15.157 --> 00:39:16.117
Freya's been crushing it with the

00:39:16.137 --> 00:39:16.518
articles.

00:39:17.697 --> 00:39:18.757
But that is all I got.

00:39:19.097 --> 00:39:20.998
I think on the flock cameras,

00:39:21.559 --> 00:39:22.579
we talked about it last week,

00:39:22.619 --> 00:39:23.980
but check out dflock.org.

00:39:24.000 --> 00:39:27.280
That's how you can find local groups and

00:39:27.320 --> 00:39:27.721
stuff.

00:39:29.481 --> 00:39:31.262
So you can get flock kicked out of

00:39:31.302 --> 00:39:32.222
your city.

00:39:32.661 --> 00:39:34.603
So definitely check that out.

00:39:34.663 --> 00:39:34.983
But yeah.

00:39:37.844 --> 00:39:38.684
Cool.

00:39:38.943 --> 00:39:39.545
Um, yeah,

00:39:39.605 --> 00:39:41.565
so all this is made possible by our

00:39:41.605 --> 00:39:42.085
supporters.

00:39:42.184 --> 00:39:43.525
You can sign up for a membership or

00:39:43.585 --> 00:39:45.766
donate at privacyguides.org slash donate,

00:39:46.226 --> 00:39:47.746
or we still have the merch shop over

00:39:47.766 --> 00:39:49.068
at shop.privacyguides.org,

00:39:49.108 --> 00:39:51.007
which is where I got this awesome water

00:39:51.027 --> 00:39:52.228
bottle, which, uh,

00:39:52.248 --> 00:39:54.489
is really coming in clutch this, uh, I'm,

00:39:54.588 --> 00:39:55.570
I'm on the East coast and we had

00:39:55.590 --> 00:39:56.929
a nice little heat wave and, uh,

00:39:58.827 --> 00:39:59.088
Yeah,

00:39:59.168 --> 00:40:00.829
Privacy Guys is a nonprofit which

00:40:00.889 --> 00:40:02.431
researches and shares privacy-related

00:40:02.451 --> 00:40:04.431
information and facilitates a community on

00:40:04.472 --> 00:40:06.514
our forum and matrix where people can ask

00:40:06.534 --> 00:40:07.974
questions and get advice about staying

00:40:08.016 --> 00:40:09.617
private online and preserving their

00:40:09.657 --> 00:40:10.277
digital rights.

00:40:10.677 --> 00:40:14.081
And now, some exciting news from WhatsApp.

00:40:15.858 --> 00:40:16.159
Yeah,

00:40:16.239 --> 00:40:18.960
so WhatsApp usernames are already raising

00:40:19.119 --> 00:40:21.581
impersonation red flags.

00:40:21.940 --> 00:40:24.902
So I guess if anyone here has been

00:40:24.961 --> 00:40:25.601
using Signal,

00:40:25.621 --> 00:40:27.643
which I kind of assume everyone here is

00:40:28.543 --> 00:40:29.923
using it or has used it at some

00:40:29.943 --> 00:40:33.684
point, Signal's kind of had usernames for,

00:40:34.085 --> 00:40:36.606
I think, probably a good while now,

00:40:36.646 --> 00:40:37.626
like maybe two years,

00:40:37.945 --> 00:40:38.405
a year and a half.

00:40:38.445 --> 00:40:39.206
I was going to say a couple of

00:40:39.226 --> 00:40:40.887
years, yeah.

00:40:40.927 --> 00:40:41.387
At this point,

00:40:41.427 --> 00:40:43.288
so that was kind of a huge...

00:40:44.559 --> 00:40:47.143
amazing feature because you could give

00:40:47.163 --> 00:40:48.724
people a username instead of giving them

00:40:48.744 --> 00:40:51.409
your phone number, which, you know,

00:40:52.030 --> 00:40:53.351
it's nice to not have to give people

00:40:53.371 --> 00:40:54.313
your phone number every time.

00:40:54.413 --> 00:40:55.114
So that's...

00:40:56.273 --> 00:40:56.954
That's kind of awesome.

00:40:57.574 --> 00:40:59.376
But WhatsApp is rolling it out now.

00:40:59.836 --> 00:41:02.880
And WhatsApp usernames are being used to

00:41:02.920 --> 00:41:03.780
impersonate people.

00:41:04.260 --> 00:41:06.242
So WhatsApp this week started rolling out

00:41:06.702 --> 00:41:09.105
username reservations ahead of the broader

00:41:09.125 --> 00:41:10.987
launch planned later this year.

00:41:11.407 --> 00:41:11.887
The feature,

00:41:11.927 --> 00:41:13.849
which lets people find and message each

00:41:13.889 --> 00:41:16.431
other by handle instead of phone number,

00:41:16.692 --> 00:41:19.833
is already raising impersonation concerns.

00:41:20.514 --> 00:41:23.777
drawing scrutiny from security experts and

00:41:23.838 --> 00:41:25.420
regulators in India,

00:41:25.659 --> 00:41:27.442
the app's largest market,

00:41:27.601 --> 00:41:31.344
with over five hundred million users.

00:41:31.726 --> 00:41:33.708
The rollout marks a shift in how people

00:41:33.807 --> 00:41:35.969
identify one another in WhatsApp.

00:41:36.170 --> 00:41:37.871
Instead of relying on phone numbers as the

00:41:37.931 --> 00:41:38.911
primary identifier,

00:41:39.552 --> 00:41:41.815
users will increasingly interact through

00:41:41.875 --> 00:41:43.317
platform managed usernames

00:41:43.797 --> 00:41:46.257
a change that Meta says improves privacy,

00:41:46.338 --> 00:41:48.577
but that critics argue could create new

00:41:48.617 --> 00:41:50.679
opportunities for impersonation.

00:41:51.719 --> 00:41:54.699
So I think one interesting thing about

00:41:54.739 --> 00:41:58.681
this and how this relates to Signal is

00:41:59.181 --> 00:41:59.782
with Signal,

00:42:00.902 --> 00:42:02.702
it kind of removes the impersonation

00:42:02.742 --> 00:42:05.882
concern because the usernames are actually

00:42:05.963 --> 00:42:06.963
randomly generated.

00:42:07.083 --> 00:42:07.503
So like

00:42:08.722 --> 00:42:10.324
If you put your name as,

00:42:10.726 --> 00:42:12.068
let's say I put my name as Jordan

00:42:12.387 --> 00:42:12.949
in Signal,

00:42:13.650 --> 00:42:16.253
it will automatically add two or three

00:42:16.293 --> 00:42:17.255
numbers to the end.

00:42:17.956 --> 00:42:21.681
So I'm not reserving a username

00:42:22.382 --> 00:42:23.063
specifically.

00:42:25.202 --> 00:42:26.762
There's extra numbers at the end to make

00:42:26.802 --> 00:42:27.822
it more randomized.

00:42:28.782 --> 00:42:31.244
And it allows more people to have a

00:42:31.284 --> 00:42:33.224
nicer and easier to enter username, right?

00:42:34.545 --> 00:42:37.027
But the way that I see this working

00:42:37.067 --> 00:42:39.507
in WhatsApp is that it doesn't have that

00:42:39.588 --> 00:42:40.608
extra number at the end.

00:42:40.887 --> 00:42:42.869
It's just a handle,

00:42:43.548 --> 00:42:47.391
which I think is what this is kind

00:42:47.431 --> 00:42:48.490
of raising concerns about.

00:42:48.550 --> 00:42:50.211
Because, you know, when you have

00:42:51.840 --> 00:42:54.001
usernames like that especially when you

00:42:54.041 --> 00:42:57.965
allow reservation of a username basically

00:42:57.985 --> 00:43:00.365
a bunch of people can just it's basically

00:43:00.545 --> 00:43:02.047
always been an issue right with any

00:43:02.086 --> 00:43:03.967
platform if someone reserves a username

00:43:03.987 --> 00:43:06.889
that you that you own or for your

00:43:06.929 --> 00:43:09.291
brand or for your company then you're kind

00:43:09.311 --> 00:43:11.273
of screwed right like you can't you can't

00:43:11.293 --> 00:43:14.094
take that over unless they're using it to

00:43:14.114 --> 00:43:15.195
impersonate you so

00:43:16.931 --> 00:43:17.952
That's kind of what we're seeing with

00:43:17.972 --> 00:43:18.293
this.

00:43:19.355 --> 00:43:20.916
And this has already been, you know,

00:43:21.297 --> 00:43:23.460
a concern where this article says the

00:43:23.500 --> 00:43:25.362
concerns have already reached regulators

00:43:25.382 --> 00:43:26.943
in India where cyber fraud schemes

00:43:27.344 --> 00:43:30.068
frequently exploit messaging platforms to

00:43:30.108 --> 00:43:30.989
impersonate police,

00:43:31.349 --> 00:43:32.951
banks and government officials.

00:43:33.711 --> 00:43:35.652
In a notice sent to WhatsApp on Wednesday,

00:43:35.932 --> 00:43:36.994
reviewed by TechCrunch,

00:43:37.114 --> 00:43:38.635
the Ministry of Electronics and

00:43:38.795 --> 00:43:40.996
Information Technology said the feature

00:43:41.036 --> 00:43:43.018
could materially increase the incidence of

00:43:43.117 --> 00:43:44.559
online fraud, phishing,

00:43:44.858 --> 00:43:46.840
digital arrest scams and impersonation

00:43:46.880 --> 00:43:49.541
attacks by enabling bad actors to contact

00:43:49.681 --> 00:43:51.222
users without exposing their phone

00:43:51.282 --> 00:43:51.663
numbers.

00:43:52.682 --> 00:43:54.403
So, yeah, this is...

00:43:55.614 --> 00:43:58.596
I feel like this Ministry of Technology is

00:43:58.635 --> 00:44:00.936
like taking this in the wrong direction.

00:44:01.016 --> 00:44:01.976
They're almost saying like,

00:44:02.476 --> 00:44:04.496
this is offering people too much privacy.

00:44:04.577 --> 00:44:06.398
We should have everyone be identified by

00:44:06.418 --> 00:44:07.097
their phone number.

00:44:07.737 --> 00:44:10.018
I don't think that's the solution here.

00:44:10.077 --> 00:44:12.018
I think the solution is to allow this,

00:44:12.719 --> 00:44:15.539
but to add an extra number or to

00:44:15.679 --> 00:44:18.900
not allow people to basically squat a

00:44:19.019 --> 00:44:19.440
username.

00:44:20.201 --> 00:44:21.340
I think allowing it to be,

00:44:23.487 --> 00:44:26.909
basically ephemeral or something that you

00:44:27.110 --> 00:44:29.130
use specifically to connect with someone

00:44:29.170 --> 00:44:30.793
and that expires or something like that,

00:44:30.873 --> 00:44:32.893
that could be a little bit better in

00:44:32.914 --> 00:44:34.034
my, in my opinion.

00:44:34.335 --> 00:44:37.317
Um, because yeah, like,

00:44:37.496 --> 00:44:38.438
like this article says,

00:44:38.478 --> 00:44:41.000
it can be kind of used to impersonate

00:44:42.081 --> 00:44:43.481
companies and governments.

00:44:43.501 --> 00:44:44.862
Um, but do you have anything,

00:44:45.422 --> 00:44:47.164
you had any thoughts on this one, Nate,

00:44:47.324 --> 00:44:47.385
or?

00:44:50.023 --> 00:44:53.246
Yeah, it's interesting, because...

00:44:53.286 --> 00:44:55.007
Let's see,

00:44:55.068 --> 00:44:56.009
I'm actually double-checking here,

00:44:56.028 --> 00:44:57.070
because, yeah, so Signal...

00:44:58.692 --> 00:45:00.054
There's not a lot of details in...

00:45:00.193 --> 00:45:01.355
I actually have two articles here,

00:45:01.375 --> 00:45:04.057
and one was the initial WhatsApp is

00:45:04.097 --> 00:45:05.559
rolling out usernames announcement.

00:45:06.019 --> 00:45:07.981
But even that one really doesn't explain a

00:45:08.001 --> 00:45:09.003
whole lot about how...

00:45:09.903 --> 00:45:12.985
this actually works um the only thing they

00:45:13.025 --> 00:45:14.166
said that i thought was interesting they

00:45:14.186 --> 00:45:16.427
said users can optional users will be able

00:45:16.467 --> 00:45:18.228
to set an optional key that others will

00:45:18.248 --> 00:45:19.809
need to know before messaging them via the

00:45:20.248 --> 00:45:21.570
new username so that's like one way to

00:45:21.610 --> 00:45:23.231
cut down on spam and stuff but i

00:45:23.251 --> 00:45:25.911
remember when signal usernames came out i

00:45:25.992 --> 00:45:28.152
thought they were going to be abused and

00:45:28.172 --> 00:45:29.474
then people pointed out it's like but

00:45:29.494 --> 00:45:31.434
people can't see your username like people

00:45:31.454 --> 00:45:32.655
can see your username if you share it

00:45:32.675 --> 00:45:34.697
with somebody um but like let's say

00:45:35.992 --> 00:45:37.494
let's say I give you my username and

00:45:37.514 --> 00:45:39.414
you message me, I can't see your username.

00:45:39.833 --> 00:45:41.715
So it's not like you can do an

00:45:41.755 --> 00:45:42.976
impersonation, I mean,

00:45:43.056 --> 00:45:44.175
any more than you could with like any

00:45:44.215 --> 00:45:45.717
other messenger, right?

00:45:45.737 --> 00:45:47.277
But it's not like, you know, where like,

00:45:47.476 --> 00:45:48.577
like Twitter or Mastodon,

00:45:49.057 --> 00:45:50.657
where you could make it, you know,

00:45:51.179 --> 00:45:52.818
Nate B at whatever.

00:45:52.998 --> 00:45:53.679
And it's like, oh,

00:45:53.780 --> 00:45:54.860
now I'm impersonating Nate,

00:45:54.900 --> 00:45:56.221
like you could change your display name,

00:45:56.240 --> 00:45:56.920
but that's about it.

00:45:58.061 --> 00:45:59.242
So that's kind of what I'm wondering here

00:45:59.282 --> 00:45:59.581
is like,

00:45:59.762 --> 00:45:59.961
is

00:46:01.143 --> 00:46:03.646
Is this, are these usernames visible?

00:46:03.867 --> 00:46:05.208
Like, is that what the concern is?

00:46:05.307 --> 00:46:06.650
Is that people are going to see that

00:46:06.670 --> 00:46:08.711
they're getting messages from some of the

00:46:08.731 --> 00:46:10.032
examples they use here where like,

00:46:11.875 --> 00:46:12.135
what is it?

00:46:12.235 --> 00:46:15.298
India Modi is still not open or is

00:46:15.318 --> 00:46:17.001
still open for registration,

00:46:17.041 --> 00:46:17.762
which for those who don't know,

00:46:18.001 --> 00:46:19.784
Narendra Modi is the prime minister of

00:46:19.824 --> 00:46:20.083
India.

00:46:20.644 --> 00:46:21.105
So it's like,

00:46:21.184 --> 00:46:22.306
are people going to think that they're

00:46:22.326 --> 00:46:23.748
getting messages from India?

00:46:24.548 --> 00:46:26.469
Narendra Modi, the Binance founder,

00:46:27.351 --> 00:46:28.512
Chepang Zhao,

00:46:28.532 --> 00:46:30.132
said that he couldn't reserve CZ

00:46:30.213 --> 00:46:31.172
underscore Binance,

00:46:31.193 --> 00:46:32.833
which is the handle he already uses on

00:46:33.273 --> 00:46:33.655
Twitter.

00:46:34.494 --> 00:46:35.976
So it's like somebody's probably already

00:46:36.056 --> 00:46:38.257
using that, and it's just really weird.

00:46:38.297 --> 00:46:39.717
And WhatsApp says that there's certain

00:46:39.797 --> 00:46:42.860
handles that they're reserving to verify

00:46:42.900 --> 00:46:43.940
that they're legitimate users,

00:46:44.300 --> 00:46:45.222
but they didn't explain...

00:46:46.541 --> 00:46:48.822
what those handles are or like how they're

00:46:48.882 --> 00:46:49.702
deciding.

00:46:50.664 --> 00:46:51.184
Cause you know, they're,

00:46:51.284 --> 00:46:52.945
they're meta and they're never super open.

00:46:53.304 --> 00:46:53.485
So yeah,

00:46:53.545 --> 00:46:54.644
there's just like a ton of questions here

00:46:54.664 --> 00:46:55.565
about like, how does this work?

00:46:55.606 --> 00:47:00.527
How are you going to protect people from,

00:47:02.228 --> 00:47:03.989
from impersonations like this?

00:47:04.108 --> 00:47:04.929
I'm seeing here,

00:47:06.210 --> 00:47:07.670
I'm doing some additional research and it

00:47:07.690 --> 00:47:08.431
could be wrong.

00:47:08.871 --> 00:47:10.871
Usernames must be three to thirty five

00:47:10.911 --> 00:47:11.771
characters long.

00:47:14.532 --> 00:47:14.914
Let's see.

00:47:14.994 --> 00:47:15.454
You can,

00:47:16.826 --> 00:47:18.248
You can change or delete your username at

00:47:18.288 --> 00:47:18.887
any time,

00:47:19.027 --> 00:47:20.409
though deletion reveals the phone number

00:47:20.449 --> 00:47:21.710
again for fourteen days.

00:47:22.652 --> 00:47:24.554
Oh, and when you delete a username,

00:47:24.594 --> 00:47:25.394
it can be reclaimed,

00:47:25.414 --> 00:47:26.496
which I think is true of Signal as

00:47:26.536 --> 00:47:27.998
well, but it's also just like, again,

00:47:28.018 --> 00:47:29.800
if somebody's squatting on a username,

00:47:29.900 --> 00:47:30.581
it's, I don't know,

00:47:31.402 --> 00:47:32.663
it sounds like this was not rolled out

00:47:32.722 --> 00:47:35.326
as thoughtfully as Signal,

00:47:35.445 --> 00:47:37.208
which is probably not surprising coming

00:47:37.228 --> 00:47:37.789
from Facebook.

00:47:39.456 --> 00:47:41.376
But the only other thing I will say,

00:47:41.556 --> 00:47:42.978
Cisco here said it sounds like another way

00:47:43.018 --> 00:47:44.378
for them to sell verification

00:47:44.398 --> 00:47:45.478
subscriptions like Instagram.

00:47:45.737 --> 00:47:46.858
That's entirely possible because this

00:47:46.878 --> 00:47:49.018
article from TechCrunch did note that they

00:47:49.059 --> 00:47:51.818
did say, oh, where'd it go?

00:47:51.858 --> 00:47:53.358
I know I had to scroll pretty far

00:47:53.398 --> 00:47:53.880
down for it.

00:47:56.219 --> 00:47:57.760
It will let users claim their existing

00:47:57.860 --> 00:47:59.820
Instagram or Facebook usernames by linking

00:47:59.840 --> 00:48:00.380
their accounts,

00:48:00.400 --> 00:48:01.920
saying that the option is intended to help

00:48:01.960 --> 00:48:02.780
creators, businesses,

00:48:02.800 --> 00:48:04.521
and organizations maintain a consistent

00:48:04.601 --> 00:48:06.141
identity across Meta's platforms while

00:48:06.282 --> 00:48:07.302
reducing impersonation.

00:48:07.402 --> 00:48:07.561
So,

00:48:08.735 --> 00:48:10.376
Yeah.

00:48:10.556 --> 00:48:10.936
I don't know.

00:48:10.956 --> 00:48:12.018
They'll probably charge for that down the

00:48:12.038 --> 00:48:12.998
road because why not, right?

00:48:13.278 --> 00:48:13.719
But yeah,

00:48:13.759 --> 00:48:14.579
I think those are kind of all my

00:48:14.619 --> 00:48:14.840
thoughts.

00:48:14.920 --> 00:48:16.260
It's just I don't understand how this is

00:48:16.280 --> 00:48:18.222
supposed to work and why didn't they just

00:48:18.242 --> 00:48:18.802
copy Signal?

00:48:18.842 --> 00:48:20.704
It was already there.

00:48:20.985 --> 00:48:21.885
I mean, okay,

00:48:21.925 --> 00:48:23.907
so I'm just reading an article about how

00:48:23.947 --> 00:48:25.889
this works and you did mention like the

00:48:25.909 --> 00:48:28.110
WhatsApp username key and it looks like

00:48:28.130 --> 00:48:29.952
it's a four-digit code that's linked to

00:48:29.972 --> 00:48:30.652
your username.

00:48:30.711 --> 00:48:33.494
So it sounds pretty similar to how Signal

00:48:33.855 --> 00:48:35.056
does it with like a number at the

00:48:35.096 --> 00:48:35.876
end of your username.

00:48:36.916 --> 00:48:37.137
So...

00:48:38.670 --> 00:48:39.650
That does make sense,

00:48:39.690 --> 00:48:41.030
but that doesn't seem to really...

00:48:41.731 --> 00:48:42.851
I don't think people are going to use

00:48:42.871 --> 00:48:43.092
that.

00:48:43.152 --> 00:48:45.072
People just use the default thing.

00:48:45.092 --> 00:48:46.634
They're not going to use this extra

00:48:46.673 --> 00:48:47.954
privacy feature, I don't think.

00:48:50.815 --> 00:48:53.257
Yeah, this is kind of a problem,

00:48:53.376 --> 00:48:53.737
I think.

00:48:54.858 --> 00:48:56.759
But which, you know, meta never really...

00:48:59.128 --> 00:48:59.568
With meta,

00:48:59.588 --> 00:49:02.349
they always don't take the right path.

00:49:02.369 --> 00:49:05.010
They always go the wrong direction with

00:49:05.050 --> 00:49:05.409
stuff.

00:49:07.090 --> 00:49:07.510
Like we saw,

00:49:07.550 --> 00:49:09.110
they removed end-to-end encryption from

00:49:09.170 --> 00:49:12.931
Instagram DMs.

00:49:13.092 --> 00:49:16.132
All sorts of bad decisions on their part.

00:49:16.193 --> 00:49:18.213
So this is going to affect a lot

00:49:18.233 --> 00:49:18.672
of people,

00:49:18.913 --> 00:49:20.934
like a ridiculous amount of people.

00:49:21.014 --> 00:49:22.454
So I hope that they do fix this

00:49:23.233 --> 00:49:24.574
or make it a little bit better because

00:49:24.954 --> 00:49:26.074
so many people use this app.

00:49:27.768 --> 00:49:29.068
So to clarify, yes,

00:49:29.469 --> 00:49:30.769
if my research is correct,

00:49:31.630 --> 00:49:34.213
if you do not have the person's phone

00:49:34.233 --> 00:49:35.673
number saved in your contacts,

00:49:36.835 --> 00:49:38.436
they will see your username instead of

00:49:38.476 --> 00:49:38.956
phone number.

00:49:39.036 --> 00:49:40.177
But if they do have the phone number

00:49:40.197 --> 00:49:40.436
saved,

00:49:40.456 --> 00:49:41.757
they will see your phone number instead of

00:49:41.838 --> 00:49:42.298
username.

00:49:42.398 --> 00:49:44.059
So that's what the issue is here,

00:49:44.719 --> 00:49:46.521
is if I message you and my username

00:49:46.561 --> 00:49:47.442
is Indy Amodi,

00:49:48.003 --> 00:49:51.766
I can pretend to be Narendra Modi.

00:49:51.786 --> 00:49:52.065
That was...

00:49:56.126 --> 00:49:56.347
Sorry,

00:49:56.407 --> 00:49:57.467
every once in a while my brain needs

00:49:57.507 --> 00:49:58.409
to reboot because I'm like,

00:49:58.449 --> 00:49:59.750
why do people make so much money to

00:49:59.769 --> 00:50:01.130
be this irresponsibly stupid?

00:50:01.271 --> 00:50:03.652
And it makes me so mad.

00:50:04.012 --> 00:50:04.873
Yeah, text Eddie here.

00:50:05.193 --> 00:50:07.516
People talking about the Instagram DM

00:50:07.556 --> 00:50:08.056
thing you said.

00:50:08.617 --> 00:50:09.838
People weren't using the encryption

00:50:09.878 --> 00:50:11.298
feature that we had disabled by default

00:50:11.318 --> 00:50:12.280
and hidden deep in the settings,

00:50:12.320 --> 00:50:12.960
so we removed it.

00:50:13.061 --> 00:50:14.842
Yes, yes, exactly.

00:50:14.942 --> 00:50:16.003
God, that was so annoying.

00:50:17.579 --> 00:50:19.721
I feel like this is not like a

00:50:19.721 --> 00:50:21.702
– I feel like meta sort of does

00:50:21.722 --> 00:50:22.583
this thing where they're like,

00:50:23.184 --> 00:50:24.565
here's this feature, and then, like,

00:50:24.625 --> 00:50:26.266
here's the added protection that, like,

00:50:26.326 --> 00:50:27.726
literally no one is going to use because

00:50:27.746 --> 00:50:30.027
it's, like, hidden deep in, like,

00:50:30.068 --> 00:50:30.608
the settings.

00:50:30.668 --> 00:50:32.250
It's like, okay.

00:50:32.309 --> 00:50:32.570
Like,

00:50:33.311 --> 00:50:34.731
the default setting on Facebook is to,

00:50:34.751 --> 00:50:34.911
like,

00:50:36.032 --> 00:50:38.634
share your phone number and contact list

00:50:38.693 --> 00:50:39.275
by default.

00:50:39.295 --> 00:50:40.295
It's like, well, yeah,

00:50:40.315 --> 00:50:41.255
but you shouldn't do that.

00:50:41.295 --> 00:50:43.777
But it's like by default it does that.

00:50:44.677 --> 00:50:45.739
So –

00:50:46.061 --> 00:50:49.103
yeah anyway we can we can uh we

00:50:49.143 --> 00:50:52.083
can be mad at meta all day sorry

00:50:52.184 --> 00:50:54.945
oh yes i can i certainly can but

00:50:54.965 --> 00:50:56.586
uh let's be mad at flock for a

00:50:56.606 --> 00:51:01.009
minute instead so we'll uh we'll move on

00:51:01.048 --> 00:51:04.431
to the story here about um a woman

00:51:04.451 --> 00:51:06.371
was surprised when a flock surveillance

00:51:06.411 --> 00:51:08.773
tower appears in her yard without warning

00:51:09.112 --> 00:51:09.753
um so there's

00:51:12.762 --> 00:51:14.686
I'm going to say there's a silver lining

00:51:14.726 --> 00:51:17.411
here, but it just raises more questions.

00:51:18.393 --> 00:51:22.601
So this woman, Kat Vaughn of Roanoke,

00:51:23.483 --> 00:51:24.364
went to the park

00:51:25.153 --> 00:51:26.875
Like, that's how quick this happened.

00:51:26.974 --> 00:51:27.155
I mean,

00:51:27.175 --> 00:51:27.996
I don't know how long she was at

00:51:28.036 --> 00:51:28.376
the park.

00:51:28.436 --> 00:51:30.538
It says she returned home from a brief

00:51:30.577 --> 00:51:31.838
trip to a nearby park.

00:51:32.199 --> 00:51:33.521
So maybe she was there for thirty minutes.

00:51:33.561 --> 00:51:34.721
Maybe she was there all day.

00:51:34.842 --> 00:51:35.262
I don't know.

00:51:35.302 --> 00:51:35.742
But either way,

00:51:35.782 --> 00:51:36.762
it's not like she was gone for a

00:51:36.822 --> 00:51:37.483
week or something.

00:51:38.003 --> 00:51:39.304
And when she came back,

00:51:39.664 --> 00:51:41.045
she discovered that there was a freshly

00:51:41.106 --> 00:51:42.807
installed device sitting in the parkway

00:51:42.827 --> 00:51:43.128
strip,

00:51:43.407 --> 00:51:44.829
which is a section of public land between

00:51:44.889 --> 00:51:45.650
her lawn and the street.

00:51:45.929 --> 00:51:46.570
So to be fair,

00:51:46.851 --> 00:51:47.791
this is the first caveat.

00:51:48.112 --> 00:51:49.693
It wasn't technically her lawn,

00:51:50.132 --> 00:51:51.074
but it was right in front of her

00:51:51.134 --> 00:51:51.514
house,

00:51:51.554 --> 00:51:52.534
which is one of those things where it's

00:51:52.554 --> 00:51:52.795
like...

00:51:53.635 --> 00:51:55.036
if you put a camera right in front

00:51:55.056 --> 00:51:58.338
of my house, like what gives dude?

00:51:58.980 --> 00:52:00.880
Um, so it actually wasn't a camera.

00:52:00.900 --> 00:52:03.003
It was a flock Raven audio detection unit,

00:52:03.023 --> 00:52:05.103
which is flocks knockoff of shot spotter,

00:52:05.583 --> 00:52:06.164
which is, um,

00:52:06.364 --> 00:52:08.246
basically a microphone that they stick on

00:52:08.266 --> 00:52:10.108
a pole that is supposed to tell if

00:52:10.128 --> 00:52:11.969
there's a gunshot nearby, but it is, uh,

00:52:11.989 --> 00:52:14.090
what's, what's the word I'm looking for?

00:52:14.309 --> 00:52:14.369
Um,

00:52:15.271 --> 00:52:16.373
cartoonish, uh,

00:52:16.713 --> 00:52:17.914
shout out stuff they don't want you to

00:52:17.934 --> 00:52:18.094
know.

00:52:18.635 --> 00:52:21.119
Uh, it is cartoonishly inaccurate and bad.

00:52:21.519 --> 00:52:24.163
It constantly, uh, gives false positives.

00:52:24.563 --> 00:52:27.047
It constantly remembers or not remembers,

00:52:27.248 --> 00:52:27.327
um,

00:52:28.978 --> 00:52:30.998
it constantly flags things like the manual

00:52:31.099 --> 00:52:31.539
oversight.

00:52:31.579 --> 00:52:33.039
People are just like, ah, that's like,

00:52:33.079 --> 00:52:34.039
whatever, just dismiss it.

00:52:34.059 --> 00:52:34.800
That's not a gunshot.

00:52:34.840 --> 00:52:35.701
It's just, it's so bad.

00:52:35.880 --> 00:52:36.440
It's so bad.

00:52:36.820 --> 00:52:38.101
Um, but you know, Hey,

00:52:38.141 --> 00:52:38.880
somebody is making money.

00:52:38.920 --> 00:52:40.481
So why not the psychopath running flock?

00:52:40.702 --> 00:52:42.882
So anyways, they installed this thing.

00:52:43.101 --> 00:52:44.882
Um, here's,

00:52:44.922 --> 00:52:46.003
here's where I say there's a bit of

00:52:46.023 --> 00:52:46.583
a silver lining,

00:52:46.603 --> 00:52:47.742
but it just raises more questions.

00:52:48.244 --> 00:52:53.664
Um, so, uh, Vaughn called the police and,

00:52:53.965 --> 00:52:54.065
uh,

00:52:54.085 --> 00:52:55.425
the cops came out to take a look

00:52:55.485 --> 00:52:55.784
at it.

00:52:56.646 --> 00:52:58.505
And even they were just like,

00:52:59.797 --> 00:53:01.059
Like she said, OK,

00:53:01.320 --> 00:53:02.501
so when the officer got out here,

00:53:02.742 --> 00:53:03.882
he wasn't sure what it was either.

00:53:03.943 --> 00:53:05.045
So we went and got a tall ladder

00:53:05.065 --> 00:53:05.846
to be able to get up to take

00:53:05.865 --> 00:53:06.586
a picture of it closer.

00:53:06.847 --> 00:53:07.807
And he said, yeah, I think you're right.

00:53:07.827 --> 00:53:08.889
It's a gun surveillance device.

00:53:09.210 --> 00:53:10.552
And they weren't supposed to be installed

00:53:10.592 --> 00:53:11.353
until July.

00:53:12.072 --> 00:53:12.454
By the way,

00:53:12.534 --> 00:53:14.416
it is July third for anyone listening

00:53:14.817 --> 00:53:15.838
after July.

00:53:16.599 --> 00:53:19.400
after time um so this was god what

00:53:19.420 --> 00:53:21.021
was this article written june twenty

00:53:21.081 --> 00:53:22.824
eighth so they're ahead of schedule and

00:53:22.844 --> 00:53:24.824
then on top of it so uh they

00:53:24.905 --> 00:53:26.445
went and checked the city records they

00:53:26.465 --> 00:53:27.706
said that the city council had approved

00:53:27.726 --> 00:53:29.007
the deployment of seventy five of these

00:53:29.027 --> 00:53:30.369
sensors at various locations throughout

00:53:30.389 --> 00:53:31.889
the city and the patch of land in

00:53:31.909 --> 00:53:34.512
front of von's house wasn't on the list

00:53:34.572 --> 00:53:36.773
so that's why i'm like this raises further

00:53:36.813 --> 00:53:38.114
questions like okay on the one hand

00:53:39.221 --> 00:53:39.740
I mean, first of all,

00:53:39.780 --> 00:53:40.860
these things shouldn't exist in the first

00:53:40.880 --> 00:53:41.061
place.

00:53:41.081 --> 00:53:42.121
Like I said, they don't work.

00:53:42.222 --> 00:53:42.822
They're garbage.

00:53:42.961 --> 00:53:44.702
They're just somebody's get-rich-quick

00:53:44.722 --> 00:53:46.362
scheme because somebody has no moral code.

00:53:47.342 --> 00:53:48.483
But putting all that aside,

00:53:48.943 --> 00:53:49.943
it wasn't supposed to be in front of

00:53:49.983 --> 00:53:52.023
her house, which is good because, again,

00:53:53.264 --> 00:53:54.565
what the hell is setting up a surveillance

00:53:54.585 --> 00:53:55.525
device in front of somebody's house?

00:53:55.565 --> 00:53:57.744
But how did it get there?

00:53:59.005 --> 00:53:59.726
Who put it there?

00:54:01.041 --> 00:54:02.262
Why did they put it in early?

00:54:03.262 --> 00:54:05.266
I have so many more questions,

00:54:05.365 --> 00:54:06.266
but I don't know.

00:54:06.286 --> 00:54:07.768
This was just such a wild story when

00:54:07.807 --> 00:54:08.309
I read this one.

00:54:08.329 --> 00:54:08.608
I was like,

00:54:08.668 --> 00:54:10.650
I really want to share this story,

00:54:10.731 --> 00:54:12.193
but I don't know if there's any real

00:54:12.452 --> 00:54:13.253
takeaways here.

00:54:14.916 --> 00:54:16.338
Just a very insane story.

00:54:18.054 --> 00:54:19.936
Yeah, that's incredibly wild.

00:54:20.016 --> 00:54:21.737
I guess one question that I do have

00:54:21.817 --> 00:54:24.298
is, like, what is this?

00:54:24.559 --> 00:54:25.579
So wait,

00:54:25.599 --> 00:54:27.800
it says Flock Raven Audio Detection Unit.

00:54:27.820 --> 00:54:28.360
So is this,

00:54:29.121 --> 00:54:30.842
am I understanding correctly that it's,

00:54:30.882 --> 00:54:31.083
like,

00:54:31.543 --> 00:54:33.324
listening for the sound of a gunshot and

00:54:33.344 --> 00:54:34.123
then it's going to, like,

00:54:34.945 --> 00:54:37.365
do something with that?

00:54:37.405 --> 00:54:40.748
So the idea is that it's supposed to

00:54:40.947 --> 00:54:41.568
detect sounds

00:54:42.699 --> 00:54:43.059
And I mean,

00:54:43.199 --> 00:54:44.239
I'm sure it goes without saying,

00:54:44.260 --> 00:54:45.440
but you're supposed to put it in like

00:54:45.501 --> 00:54:47.041
rougher neighborhoods where gun crime

00:54:47.101 --> 00:54:47.882
actually happens.

00:54:49.222 --> 00:54:52.123
But the idea is that it detects a

00:54:52.164 --> 00:54:54.065
gunshot and then alerts the police.

00:54:54.485 --> 00:54:55.485
So we don't have to wait for a

00:54:55.525 --> 00:54:57.186
nine one one call or, you know,

00:54:57.246 --> 00:54:57.967
especially in,

00:54:58.108 --> 00:54:59.307
I'm not trying to stereotype here,

00:54:59.327 --> 00:55:00.688
but in some of these poorer neighborhoods,

00:55:00.789 --> 00:55:01.969
it's like, you mind your own business,

00:55:02.010 --> 00:55:02.230
right?

00:55:02.289 --> 00:55:03.771
Like you heard a gunshot.

00:55:04.190 --> 00:55:04.731
No, you didn't.

00:55:04.971 --> 00:55:05.931
Not if nobody got hurt,

00:55:06.052 --> 00:55:07.052
you'd mind your own business.

00:55:07.092 --> 00:55:08.954
So the idea is even with,

00:55:10.434 --> 00:55:11.795
With ones that don't get called in,

00:55:12.195 --> 00:55:13.434
it'll alert the police and they can come

00:55:13.474 --> 00:55:13.635
by.

00:55:13.675 --> 00:55:15.215
But like I said, they're proven.

00:55:15.896 --> 00:55:16.795
You can look these up online.

00:55:16.856 --> 00:55:17.775
I can't remember who covered it,

00:55:17.795 --> 00:55:19.097
but somebody did a really deep dive.

00:55:19.117 --> 00:55:20.097
It wasn't four or four because this would

00:55:20.117 --> 00:55:20.556
be four or four.

00:55:20.717 --> 00:55:20.956
Actually,

00:55:20.976 --> 00:55:22.016
four or four may have covered this too.

00:55:22.036 --> 00:55:24.057
But it's been proven that they have like

00:55:24.097 --> 00:55:25.998
this ridiculous false positive rate that

00:55:26.018 --> 00:55:26.778
they detect like...

00:55:27.858 --> 00:55:30.719
like car backfires or fireworks,

00:55:30.739 --> 00:55:33.121
like things that any human would hear and

00:55:33.161 --> 00:55:34.300
be like, that is not a gun.

00:55:34.862 --> 00:55:35.942
And it thinks it's a gun.

00:55:36.362 --> 00:55:37.061
And then on top of it,

00:55:37.081 --> 00:55:39.023
there's always the privacy concerns too of

00:55:39.103 --> 00:55:40.003
the slippery slope, right?

00:55:40.043 --> 00:55:41.864
Like, okay, sure, today it's a gun.

00:55:42.244 --> 00:55:43.644
What happens tomorrow when it's like

00:55:43.704 --> 00:55:44.065
speech?

00:55:44.125 --> 00:55:44.565
And you're like, well,

00:55:44.585 --> 00:55:46.326
we're just listening for violent crime.

00:55:46.346 --> 00:55:46.505
You know,

00:55:46.525 --> 00:55:47.646
we're listening for the two people on the

00:55:47.666 --> 00:55:49.786
corner doing a drug deal or like planning

00:55:49.806 --> 00:55:50.427
a crime.

00:55:50.487 --> 00:55:51.547
And it's like, okay, today,

00:55:51.927 --> 00:55:53.288
what happens when tomorrow they're

00:55:53.307 --> 00:55:54.168
planning a protest?

00:55:54.208 --> 00:55:54.889
Or, you know, it's just...

00:55:55.588 --> 00:55:58.231
it's no yeah these things are there's

00:55:58.251 --> 00:55:59.911
literally no redeeming quality about these

00:55:59.931 --> 00:56:01.413
things except to make somebody at the top

00:56:01.452 --> 00:56:04.074
rich i i'm gonna say that full stop

00:56:04.094 --> 00:56:06.976
but yeah i mean i my question with

00:56:06.996 --> 00:56:09.199
this though is like what if you just

00:56:09.239 --> 00:56:10.579
like want to fire your gun on your

00:56:10.599 --> 00:56:12.541
own property like what what what about

00:56:12.581 --> 00:56:13.961
that like what are you not i thought

00:56:13.981 --> 00:56:15.182
you're allowed to do that oh no

00:56:16.311 --> 00:56:17.311
Yeah, or like Dag said,

00:56:17.512 --> 00:56:19.512
don't watch any action movies with the

00:56:19.532 --> 00:56:20.132
window open.

00:56:21.994 --> 00:56:23.574
Yeah, I mean, it depends.

00:56:23.695 --> 00:56:24.675
I would imagine that in a city,

00:56:24.695 --> 00:56:25.996
it's probably not cool to be firing a

00:56:26.016 --> 00:56:26.795
gun in your property.

00:56:28.556 --> 00:56:29.398
But I don't know.

00:56:29.458 --> 00:56:31.619
I mean, that is certainly a good question.

00:56:31.838 --> 00:56:32.659
Like, yeah,

00:56:32.739 --> 00:56:34.780
there's all kinds of scenarios I could see

00:56:34.820 --> 00:56:35.300
where it's like,

00:56:35.340 --> 00:56:36.420
I'm not doing anything wrong.

00:56:36.481 --> 00:56:38.822
Why is, I don't know.

00:56:39.182 --> 00:56:39.862
Yeah, that's crazy.

00:56:41.724 --> 00:56:43.744
Yeah, it's wild.

00:56:49.353 --> 00:56:50.753
But yeah, that's a pretty short one.

00:56:50.773 --> 00:56:52.155
I don't think I have much more to

00:56:52.195 --> 00:56:52.954
add to that one personally.

00:56:55.036 --> 00:56:55.757
Yeah, fair enough.

00:56:56.117 --> 00:56:58.280
I guess we can dive into some forum

00:56:58.400 --> 00:56:59.360
updates here.

00:56:59.521 --> 00:57:00.661
So in a minute,

00:57:00.681 --> 00:57:02.322
we'll start taking viewer questions.

00:57:02.362 --> 00:57:03.804
So if you've been holding on to any

00:57:04.264 --> 00:57:05.726
questions about any of the stories we've

00:57:05.746 --> 00:57:06.947
been talking about so far,

00:57:07.027 --> 00:57:09.648
go ahead and leave them on our forum

00:57:09.708 --> 00:57:12.170
thread or in the comment section on the

00:57:12.210 --> 00:57:12.751
live stream.

00:57:12.791 --> 00:57:13.152
For now,

00:57:13.231 --> 00:57:15.673
let's check in with our community forum.

00:57:15.994 --> 00:57:17.295
There's always a lot of activity.

00:57:17.934 --> 00:57:20.936
And here's a few of this week's most

00:57:21.056 --> 00:57:24.697
interesting discussions happening there.

00:57:25.496 --> 00:57:27.597
So I'm going to take this second one

00:57:27.657 --> 00:57:27.978
here.

00:57:28.898 --> 00:57:30.838
This one is about Reddit.

00:57:31.059 --> 00:57:33.699
So if anyone here has ever had the

00:57:33.880 --> 00:57:36.121
displeasure of visiting the Reddit

00:57:36.161 --> 00:57:36.721
website,

00:57:37.402 --> 00:57:41.262
then you'll know that it's frequently

00:57:41.322 --> 00:57:44.083
become harder and harder to access Reddit.

00:57:44.625 --> 00:57:46.045
information on Reddit,

00:57:46.387 --> 00:57:47.909
especially if you're using a VPN,

00:57:47.989 --> 00:57:48.869
especially if you're using

00:57:50.275 --> 00:57:51.016
it logged out,

00:57:51.376 --> 00:57:53.556
especially if you're using any sort of

00:57:53.617 --> 00:57:54.757
privacy protection.

00:57:56.697 --> 00:57:58.597
And one way to get around a lot

00:57:58.637 --> 00:58:01.418
of these restrictions was to use the

00:58:02.038 --> 00:58:06.298
old.reddit.com website instead.

00:58:06.338 --> 00:58:08.599
So basically, instead of reddit.com,

00:58:08.639 --> 00:58:10.539
you would use old.reddit.com instead.

00:58:11.199 --> 00:58:13.900
And that would basically load the old

00:58:14.940 --> 00:58:18.063
less JavaScript heavy version of the

00:58:18.083 --> 00:58:18.643
website.

00:58:19.264 --> 00:58:21.525
And that bypassed a lot of the issues

00:58:21.565 --> 00:58:23.867
that the newer version of the website has.

00:58:24.327 --> 00:58:27.210
But this reporting here from Ars Technica

00:58:27.911 --> 00:58:29.972
says that Reddit will require you to log

00:58:30.072 --> 00:58:32.514
in to use old.reddit.com.

00:58:33.175 --> 00:58:37.958
So logged out old Reddit access is a

00:58:38.077 --> 00:58:41.661
significant source of abusive scraping.

00:58:41.880 --> 00:58:42.782
So Reddit will start

00:58:43.811 --> 00:58:45.773
Requiring people to be logged into Reddit

00:58:45.813 --> 00:58:47.335
to use old.reddit.com,

00:58:47.735 --> 00:58:50.336
the new requirement will take effect over

00:58:50.356 --> 00:58:51.177
the next month.

00:58:51.277 --> 00:58:53.159
A Reddit employee going by the username

00:58:53.338 --> 00:58:55.900
BoatBotany announced on the social media

00:58:55.940 --> 00:58:56.780
platform today.

00:58:57.242 --> 00:58:59.163
The person claimed that the change is part

00:58:59.202 --> 00:59:00.963
of an ongoing effort to tighten how

00:59:01.063 --> 00:59:03.606
automated systems access Reddit.

00:59:05.202 --> 00:59:08.043
So basically the excuse that they're using

00:59:08.164 --> 00:59:13.027
is this is basically becoming a source

00:59:13.067 --> 00:59:14.286
for, I think,

00:59:14.907 --> 00:59:16.148
let's read in between the lines.

00:59:16.288 --> 00:59:19.228
This is an issue with AI scrapers.

00:59:20.650 --> 00:59:22.630
It's kind of always been a concern,

00:59:23.170 --> 00:59:24.851
but I feel like a lot of like

00:59:25.172 --> 00:59:27.072
large language models are basically

00:59:27.393 --> 00:59:29.614
training a lot of data off Reddit because

00:59:29.653 --> 00:59:32.014
it's so openly accessible.

00:59:32.175 --> 00:59:33.615
So this is kind of just a move

00:59:33.635 --> 00:59:34.356
by them to

00:59:36.132 --> 00:59:37.452
restrict the access.

00:59:37.833 --> 00:59:40.014
And I guess by having people log in,

00:59:40.074 --> 00:59:40.916
then, you know,

00:59:40.976 --> 00:59:43.818
you kind of can track activity.

00:59:44.137 --> 00:59:46.139
So you can see that someone's visiting

00:59:46.880 --> 00:59:48.041
every single subreddit,

00:59:48.121 --> 00:59:49.782
every single post on every subreddit.

00:59:50.402 --> 00:59:52.603
You can see that they're scraping and

00:59:52.664 --> 00:59:55.005
block their access.

00:59:55.525 --> 00:59:57.068
So by logging in,

00:59:57.088 --> 00:59:58.688
we get a lot more signal that allows

00:59:58.728 --> 01:00:00.110
us to detect whether an account is

01:00:00.150 --> 01:00:00.949
breaking the rules,

01:00:01.010 --> 01:00:02.572
and then we can block that traffic or

01:00:02.592 --> 01:00:05.574
enforce those accounts, both Botany said.

01:00:07.481 --> 01:00:08.121
As of writing,

01:00:08.260 --> 01:00:10.161
Ars Technica was still able to use

01:00:10.742 --> 01:00:13.463
old.reddit.com without logging in.

01:00:14.063 --> 01:00:16.143
And the news is likely to upset some

01:00:16.184 --> 01:00:17.905
longtime Reddit users who've relied on

01:00:18.005 --> 01:00:20.606
old.reddit.com for a familiar look that

01:00:20.626 --> 01:00:23.387
they find easier to navigate and digest,

01:00:23.867 --> 01:00:25.547
and who also want to view Reddit without

01:00:25.588 --> 01:00:28.309
logging in for convenience and or privacy.

01:00:29.630 --> 01:00:29.909
So...

01:00:32.585 --> 01:00:32.786
Yeah.

01:00:32.985 --> 01:00:33.226
Anyway,

01:00:33.266 --> 01:00:36.168
this old.reddit.com website is kind of a

01:00:36.188 --> 01:00:36.967
source of scraping.

01:00:37.048 --> 01:00:37.869
So, you know,

01:00:38.809 --> 01:00:39.969
there's also in this article,

01:00:39.989 --> 01:00:42.311
they also said that old.reddit.com might

01:00:42.351 --> 01:00:43.331
not exist forever.

01:00:43.692 --> 01:00:47.454
So it might almost be time to retire.

01:00:48.974 --> 01:00:49.675
That's what they said.

01:00:49.775 --> 01:00:51.155
So it's,

01:00:51.976 --> 01:00:53.498
they said they can't promise it'll be

01:00:53.518 --> 01:00:54.358
around forever.

01:00:54.737 --> 01:00:56.559
So that'll be interesting to see.

01:00:56.619 --> 01:00:57.219
But Nate,

01:00:57.400 --> 01:00:58.800
do you have anything you wanted to add

01:00:58.820 --> 01:00:59.621
to this story here?

01:01:01.181 --> 01:01:01.740
Not too much.

01:01:01.840 --> 01:01:02.762
I think I just wanted to share this

01:01:02.782 --> 01:01:05.523
story because I know that old.reddit.com

01:01:05.782 --> 01:01:08.103
is a very popular thing in the privacy

01:01:08.123 --> 01:01:08.525
community.

01:01:09.105 --> 01:01:10.164
Like they said in the article here,

01:01:10.224 --> 01:01:12.525
it doesn't really contain any less

01:01:12.565 --> 01:01:14.447
trackers per se, as far as I know.

01:01:15.047 --> 01:01:15.447
But...

01:01:16.655 --> 01:01:18.016
if you can do it without logging in

01:01:18.255 --> 01:01:20.376
and you're using a privacy respecting

01:01:20.677 --> 01:01:24.398
browser like brave or Firefox, um, then,

01:01:25.498 --> 01:01:25.777
you know,

01:01:25.878 --> 01:01:27.599
it's still a better privacy thing.

01:01:27.619 --> 01:01:28.358
Cause like you said, yeah,

01:01:28.438 --> 01:01:29.179
I've noticed it too.

01:01:29.539 --> 01:01:30.820
It's not as bad as it used to

01:01:30.860 --> 01:01:30.940
be,

01:01:30.960 --> 01:01:33.079
but there was a period where Reddit was

01:01:33.099 --> 01:01:35.621
like really being a stickler for like,

01:01:35.661 --> 01:01:37.061
if you had a VPN on like nope,

01:01:37.320 --> 01:01:40.302
instant login page with their stupid

01:01:40.322 --> 01:01:42.021
little trying to be cute mascot that I

01:01:42.041 --> 01:01:42.402
swear to God,

01:01:42.442 --> 01:01:43.503
I wanted to punch it every time.

01:01:43.603 --> 01:01:44.742
But, um,

01:01:45.862 --> 01:01:46.762
Yeah,

01:01:46.943 --> 01:01:48.003
it's getting harder and harder to use.

01:01:48.083 --> 01:01:49.885
And also they make a point about a

01:01:49.925 --> 01:01:51.846
familiar interface because I just noticed

01:01:52.166 --> 01:01:54.186
I'm not super active.

01:01:54.306 --> 01:01:55.248
I go through ups and downs if I'm

01:01:55.268 --> 01:01:55.947
being totally honest.

01:01:56.048 --> 01:01:57.630
I don't think I'm super active on Reddit,

01:01:57.650 --> 01:01:58.489
but every once in a while I'll be

01:01:58.530 --> 01:01:59.751
super active for like a week and then

01:01:59.771 --> 01:02:01.192
stop using it for like three months.

01:02:01.731 --> 01:02:04.673
But I've noticed this week I've been on

01:02:04.693 --> 01:02:05.894
Reddit a little more and I logged in

01:02:06.735 --> 01:02:08.396
and now they're doing that same crap that

01:02:08.416 --> 01:02:09.157
everybody else is doing.

01:02:09.197 --> 01:02:10.577
It's not bad enough that they had...

01:02:11.963 --> 01:02:13.063
an algorithmic timeline,

01:02:13.143 --> 01:02:16.483
now they have a suggested timeline and

01:02:16.503 --> 01:02:18.105
your actual following timeline.

01:02:18.164 --> 01:02:19.244
And of course, by default,

01:02:19.585 --> 01:02:20.625
every time you log in,

01:02:20.925 --> 01:02:22.425
it goes back to the suggested timeline.

01:02:22.726 --> 01:02:24.266
So it's not just the subreddits you

01:02:24.286 --> 01:02:24.867
subscribe to,

01:02:25.166 --> 01:02:26.547
it's also a bunch of other crap you're

01:02:26.567 --> 01:02:27.967
not subscribed to that's popular,

01:02:28.007 --> 01:02:30.188
like AskReddit or r slash what is this

01:02:30.248 --> 01:02:30.668
or whatever.

01:02:30.728 --> 01:02:32.628
And it's like, I don't care.

01:02:32.688 --> 01:02:33.889
If I cared, I would subscribe.

01:02:34.208 --> 01:02:35.829
Stop trying to show me more subreddits.

01:02:35.889 --> 01:02:36.409
So it's just...

01:02:37.210 --> 01:02:37.690
you know, the,

01:02:37.791 --> 01:02:39.632
the eternal problem of in shitification,

01:02:39.693 --> 01:02:39.913
right?

01:02:39.972 --> 01:02:41.795
Like it's just, it's frustrating.

01:02:41.835 --> 01:02:42.014
And it's,

01:02:42.114 --> 01:02:44.557
it's sad that cause Reddit does have

01:02:45.358 --> 01:02:45.898
objectively,

01:02:45.958 --> 01:02:47.440
I think it does have some value in

01:02:47.460 --> 01:02:49.463
the sense that a lot of the time

01:02:49.483 --> 01:02:50.202
when you look up something,

01:02:50.222 --> 01:02:51.324
even without the AI summaries,

01:02:51.344 --> 01:02:52.324
a lot of the time you look something

01:02:52.405 --> 01:02:53.606
up and especially if it's something more

01:02:53.646 --> 01:02:54.447
niche, like, Hey,

01:02:54.467 --> 01:02:55.889
what are the reviews on these shoes?

01:02:56.028 --> 01:02:57.710
Or like, um, you know,

01:02:57.851 --> 01:02:59.211
I'm having trouble with this, uh,

01:03:00.349 --> 01:03:01.110
I'm trying to think of something I'm

01:03:01.269 --> 01:03:02.510
actually having trouble with recently,

01:03:02.550 --> 01:03:03.110
but you know,

01:03:03.150 --> 01:03:04.172
I'm having trouble with a thing.

01:03:04.211 --> 01:03:05.431
Like I'm looking for a little life hack.

01:03:05.472 --> 01:03:06.992
Like Reddit is really good for that kind

01:03:07.012 --> 01:03:07.373
of stuff.

01:03:07.994 --> 01:03:09.695
And it would be really nice to not

01:03:09.715 --> 01:03:12.976
have to log in to use Reddit just

01:03:12.996 --> 01:03:14.336
to check somebody's thread.

01:03:15.336 --> 01:03:15.896
Um, so it's,

01:03:15.978 --> 01:03:18.119
it's really a shame and it's really

01:03:18.139 --> 01:03:18.478
annoying.

01:03:19.369 --> 01:03:19.989
Although, to be fair,

01:03:20.088 --> 01:03:21.230
Reddit is so astroturfed,

01:03:21.269 --> 01:03:22.210
I'm not sure how much I trust a

01:03:22.230 --> 01:03:23.230
lot of those answers anyways.

01:03:23.289 --> 01:03:25.231
But yeah, so just I guess, again,

01:03:25.271 --> 01:03:26.130
I just wanted to share because I know

01:03:26.150 --> 01:03:27.411
that is a really popular trick to use

01:03:27.431 --> 01:03:28.291
in the privacy community.

01:03:28.331 --> 01:03:30.052
So you guys should be aware that it

01:03:30.092 --> 01:03:31.733
is going away, unfortunately.

01:03:33.313 --> 01:03:33.554
Yeah,

01:03:33.813 --> 01:03:35.213
I think one thing that I saw an

01:03:35.253 --> 01:03:38.014
interesting comment on this article,

01:03:38.094 --> 01:03:38.536
actually,

01:03:39.056 --> 01:03:42.297
someone was saying they don't really need

01:03:42.931 --> 01:03:44.373
to require a login.

01:03:44.773 --> 01:03:46.092
Like there's other ways that we can,

01:03:46.413 --> 01:03:47.914
we can detect humanity, right?

01:03:47.994 --> 01:03:51.675
There's like, oh, Anubis, like using,

01:03:52.476 --> 01:03:52.996
yeah, exactly.

01:03:53.076 --> 01:03:53.876
So Dag said,

01:03:53.936 --> 01:03:56.436
you can do that tracking or bot prevention

01:03:56.456 --> 01:03:57.938
measures without forcing a login.

01:03:57.978 --> 01:03:59.539
Smells more like preparation for age

01:03:59.559 --> 01:04:00.239
verification.

01:04:01.679 --> 01:04:02.000
Yeah.

01:04:02.380 --> 01:04:05.621
And I think a lot of third-party apps

01:04:05.681 --> 01:04:08.282
actually rely on old.reddit.com to like

01:04:08.422 --> 01:04:10.443
basically scrape it.

01:04:10.742 --> 01:04:12.664
And it's not scraping, but it's like,

01:04:14.434 --> 01:04:15.855
I don't know what you would call that,

01:04:15.875 --> 01:04:16.315
but it's like...

01:04:16.335 --> 01:04:17.195
Are you talking about a lot of the

01:04:17.235 --> 01:04:17.735
front ends?

01:04:19.056 --> 01:04:20.717
No, just like apps like Infinity.

01:04:20.878 --> 01:04:22.539
There's an app for Reddit which is called

01:04:22.579 --> 01:04:25.521
Infinity and there's another one on iOS.

01:04:25.942 --> 01:04:26.822
But I believe they just...

01:04:27.797 --> 01:04:31.458
scrape old.reddit.com and then just use

01:04:31.498 --> 01:04:35.422
that to display the content to bypass some

01:04:35.461 --> 01:04:35.742
of the,

01:04:36.262 --> 01:04:37.882
because there was API restrictions.

01:04:38.483 --> 01:04:41.465
They don't use the API.

01:04:41.485 --> 01:04:42.306
I was wondering what happened to that

01:04:42.326 --> 01:04:43.407
because I remember there was a big deal

01:04:43.447 --> 01:04:45.728
about it and then Reddit said they were

01:04:45.748 --> 01:04:46.768
going to work with some of the more

01:04:46.849 --> 01:04:49.010
popular apps like Apollo and then just

01:04:49.130 --> 01:04:51.992
never went anywhere with that.

01:04:52.231 --> 01:04:53.753
I was curious what happened to that story.

01:04:54.539 --> 01:04:57.204
Everyone just went and didn't want to give

01:04:57.304 --> 01:04:57.804
Reddit money.

01:04:58.485 --> 01:04:59.467
So, yeah.

01:05:00.028 --> 01:05:01.351
That's everything I had on that story

01:05:01.391 --> 01:05:03.213
there.

01:05:03.293 --> 01:05:04.074
Okay.

01:05:04.416 --> 01:05:04.896
And in that case,

01:05:04.916 --> 01:05:06.259
we'll jump over to our other...

01:05:07.239 --> 01:05:08.398
forum thread,

01:05:08.438 --> 01:05:10.880
which is the kids act has passed the

01:05:10.920 --> 01:05:11.221
house.

01:05:11.380 --> 01:05:11.820
So again,

01:05:11.860 --> 01:05:13.101
this is just like a really quick signal

01:05:13.121 --> 01:05:14.181
booth boost.

01:05:14.601 --> 01:05:15.902
If you live in the U S um,

01:05:15.922 --> 01:05:17.342
definitely please check the newsletter for

01:05:17.362 --> 01:05:17.623
a link.

01:05:17.643 --> 01:05:17.682
Uh,

01:05:18.523 --> 01:05:20.704
so this person links to the text of

01:05:20.724 --> 01:05:24.146
the bill and how each representative voted

01:05:24.425 --> 01:05:26.585
and how to find your representative at

01:05:26.626 --> 01:05:27.847
house.gov, which is awesome.

01:05:28.831 --> 01:05:29.873
um, excuse me.

01:05:29.913 --> 01:05:31.273
So I think this still has to go

01:05:31.313 --> 01:05:33.456
through the, uh, let me see here.

01:05:33.496 --> 01:05:33.635
Yeah.

01:05:33.655 --> 01:05:34.757
It still has to go to the Senate

01:05:35.257 --> 01:05:37.079
and then the president has to sign it.

01:05:37.498 --> 01:05:38.320
Um,

01:05:38.340 --> 01:05:41.503
but this is basically an age verification

01:05:41.523 --> 01:05:41.702
law.

01:05:41.742 --> 01:05:44.425
You know, it's, it's, uh, I think correct.

01:05:44.505 --> 01:05:45.106
I could be wrong.

01:05:45.485 --> 01:05:45.545
Um,

01:05:45.565 --> 01:05:46.626
but I think it's kind of just like

01:05:46.646 --> 01:05:48.809
an amalgamation of a bunch of bad bills

01:05:48.849 --> 01:05:49.710
that have not passed.

01:05:49.989 --> 01:05:51.050
Um, but you know,

01:05:51.070 --> 01:05:52.771
it requires specified online platforms to

01:05:52.811 --> 01:05:54.152
establish safeguards for minors,

01:05:54.172 --> 01:05:55.514
such as limiting access to sexual

01:05:55.534 --> 01:05:56.114
material, um,

01:05:56.315 --> 01:05:58.755
providing parental controls and requiring

01:05:58.875 --> 01:06:00.476
AI chatbots to disclose information to

01:06:00.576 --> 01:06:01.456
users who are minors.

01:06:01.876 --> 01:06:02.235
And, you know,

01:06:02.255 --> 01:06:03.275
that's the first thing is like,

01:06:03.576 --> 01:06:04.795
how's the chatbot going to know if you're

01:06:04.815 --> 01:06:06.597
a minor, they have to age verify you.

01:06:06.657 --> 01:06:06.916
Right.

01:06:07.077 --> 01:06:08.077
And, you know,

01:06:08.197 --> 01:06:09.556
the whole like limiting access to

01:06:09.657 --> 01:06:10.876
specified sexual material.

01:06:11.137 --> 01:06:11.338
Sure.

01:06:11.358 --> 01:06:11.818
That's great.

01:06:11.998 --> 01:06:13.277
Until just general,

01:06:13.398 --> 01:06:16.498
like sexual education becomes specified

01:06:16.518 --> 01:06:16.898
material.

01:06:16.918 --> 01:06:17.478
It's just,

01:06:17.498 --> 01:06:19.338
these things are just a slippery slope and

01:06:19.438 --> 01:06:20.438
will not end well.

01:06:20.518 --> 01:06:22.418
So if you are American, um,

01:06:22.539 --> 01:06:25.219
find your senators because, um,

01:06:26.282 --> 01:06:27.023
No offense to this person.

01:06:27.043 --> 01:06:28.143
Thank you so much for sharing this.

01:06:28.164 --> 01:06:29.846
But like your representative already

01:06:29.885 --> 01:06:30.146
voted.

01:06:30.846 --> 01:06:31.706
I guess you can feel free to vote

01:06:31.726 --> 01:06:31.907
him out.

01:06:32.007 --> 01:06:34.389
We actually I think we have a primary

01:06:34.429 --> 01:06:34.768
coming up.

01:06:34.849 --> 01:06:35.849
I should do some research, but.

01:06:37.364 --> 01:06:38.724
find your senators I would say because

01:06:38.764 --> 01:06:40.045
it's already past the house like you can

01:06:40.065 --> 01:06:41.005
call them and yell at them but it's

01:06:41.025 --> 01:06:42.726
not going to change their vote so what

01:06:42.746 --> 01:06:44.047
we need now is to call the senators

01:06:44.168 --> 01:06:46.929
and say do not vote for this or

01:06:47.048 --> 01:06:48.570
I don't know if this actually works but

01:06:48.670 --> 01:06:49.971
my thing is I tell them I'm like

01:06:50.030 --> 01:06:51.411
if you vote for this I will actively

01:06:51.431 --> 01:06:54.134
campaign against you like if I'm being

01:06:54.173 --> 01:06:55.233
real I probably don't have the time for

01:06:55.273 --> 01:06:56.994
that but like I will happily tell everyone

01:06:57.375 --> 01:06:59.956
why they should not vote for you so

01:07:00.016 --> 01:07:02.418
yeah call your senators if you live in

01:07:02.438 --> 01:07:04.460
the US because this is this is not

01:07:04.480 --> 01:07:04.659
good

01:07:05.356 --> 01:07:05.856
Yeah.

01:07:06.036 --> 01:07:07.657
They should provide parental controls and

01:07:07.677 --> 01:07:08.277
leave it to the parents.

01:07:08.318 --> 01:07:09.358
We've, I mean, we've,

01:07:09.458 --> 01:07:11.139
we've covered this topic like five or six

01:07:11.159 --> 01:07:11.740
times now.

01:07:11.880 --> 01:07:12.221
And yeah,

01:07:12.260 --> 01:07:14.663
that's definitely a thing we say all the

01:07:14.702 --> 01:07:16.244
time is like, at least in other countries,

01:07:16.264 --> 01:07:17.405
when you start a new phone,

01:07:17.445 --> 01:07:18.726
like an iPhone or whatever,

01:07:19.065 --> 01:07:20.586
the first thing it asks you is like,

01:07:21.068 --> 01:07:21.367
is this,

01:07:21.467 --> 01:07:22.829
does this phone belong to a minor?

01:07:23.289 --> 01:07:24.090
And if you say yes,

01:07:24.210 --> 01:07:25.731
it walks you through all the parental

01:07:25.751 --> 01:07:26.090
controls.

01:07:26.110 --> 01:07:27.331
And I don't understand why they can't just

01:07:27.351 --> 01:07:28.413
do something like that, but.

01:07:29.996 --> 01:07:31.197
Whatever.

01:07:31.217 --> 01:07:33.398
I guess one interesting,

01:07:33.759 --> 01:07:35.940
I guess to talk about this a bit

01:07:36.000 --> 01:07:40.461
more, is this whole act,

01:07:40.561 --> 01:07:43.543
is this something that is bipartisan?

01:07:43.623 --> 01:07:46.585
Is this some certain part of the

01:07:46.606 --> 01:07:47.865
government that's pushing for this?

01:07:47.985 --> 01:07:51.927
Is this something like that?

01:07:51.967 --> 01:07:53.268
That's a good question here.

01:07:53.309 --> 01:07:55.389
Let me see this link.

01:07:55.449 --> 01:07:58.831
So it was a Republican who introduced it.

01:07:59.929 --> 01:08:04.291
But, no, it's pretty bipartisan.

01:08:04.351 --> 01:08:06.172
A hundred and sixty-two yeses from the

01:08:06.213 --> 01:08:07.773
Republicans, thirty-two noes,

01:08:07.813 --> 01:08:08.914
twenty-four not voting.

01:08:09.014 --> 01:08:10.574
Democrat, a hundred and four yes,

01:08:10.715 --> 01:08:13.197
eighty-five no, twenty-three not voting,

01:08:13.777 --> 01:08:15.577
one independent yes, everything else zero.

01:08:16.137 --> 01:08:17.259
Oh, that must have been Bernie Sanders.

01:08:17.298 --> 01:08:18.140
I think he's an independent.

01:08:20.360 --> 01:08:21.020
Is he a senator?

01:08:21.421 --> 01:08:21.721
I don't know.

01:08:22.042 --> 01:08:22.981
We don't have a lot of independents.

01:08:23.283 --> 01:08:24.082
But, yeah,

01:08:24.122 --> 01:08:25.484
two hundred and sixty-seven for,

01:08:25.684 --> 01:08:26.725
a hundred and seventeen against,

01:08:26.784 --> 01:08:27.765
forty-seven not voting.

01:08:27.845 --> 01:08:28.525
So it's...

01:08:29.992 --> 01:08:32.273
unfortunately kind of bipartisan why do

01:08:32.412 --> 01:08:35.733
our politicians work together on the worst

01:08:35.792 --> 01:08:39.493
loss why can't you guys unite on something

01:08:39.514 --> 01:08:41.975
good they'll squabble about like really

01:08:42.034 --> 01:08:43.935
silly stuff and then they'll just like all

01:08:44.034 --> 01:08:46.395
unite to like do the most dystopian like

01:08:46.536 --> 01:08:49.896
ninteen eighty four stuff like what it's

01:08:49.957 --> 01:08:51.577
so bad um

01:08:52.832 --> 01:08:54.213
Yeah, it's I mean, Dag is right.

01:08:54.253 --> 01:08:55.135
I've said this before, too.

01:08:55.215 --> 01:08:56.435
No one can say no to protecting the

01:08:56.475 --> 01:08:56.655
kids.

01:08:56.676 --> 01:08:58.457
They do this on purpose because then if

01:08:58.478 --> 01:09:00.539
you don't protect the kids or if you

01:09:00.579 --> 01:09:01.360
vote against it,

01:09:01.400 --> 01:09:02.282
then people are just like, oh,

01:09:02.301 --> 01:09:03.021
you hate children.

01:09:03.061 --> 01:09:04.823
Like it's a rhetorical device and it's

01:09:05.024 --> 01:09:05.965
absolutely awful.

01:09:06.645 --> 01:09:08.646
So.

01:09:10.029 --> 01:09:10.889
Yeah, kind of off topic,

01:09:10.908 --> 01:09:12.331
but Cisco is like Bernie's independent.

01:09:12.411 --> 01:09:13.291
I think he's independent.

01:09:13.372 --> 01:09:13.771
I could be right.

01:09:13.811 --> 01:09:15.033
I know he was independent.

01:09:15.073 --> 01:09:15.814
No, he's independent.

01:09:15.854 --> 01:09:17.034
Nineteen seventy eight till present,

01:09:17.175 --> 01:09:18.015
according to Wikipedia.

01:09:18.115 --> 01:09:20.198
So, yeah, Bernie's independent.

01:09:21.248 --> 01:09:22.510
I think when he ran for president,

01:09:22.550 --> 01:09:25.533
he ran on the Democratic ticket because we

01:09:25.573 --> 01:09:27.475
live in a two party country and like

01:09:28.777 --> 01:09:30.639
he has a better chance of living to

01:09:30.679 --> 01:09:32.279
walk on Jupiter than winning as an

01:09:32.300 --> 01:09:32.761
independent.

01:09:32.961 --> 01:09:34.882
But other than that,

01:09:34.922 --> 01:09:36.043
I think he's always been independent.

01:09:38.046 --> 01:09:38.447
Interesting.

01:09:38.527 --> 01:09:38.787
Okay.

01:09:40.108 --> 01:09:42.869
At least what I'm seeing is, well,

01:09:42.909 --> 01:09:44.350
I guess to kind of ask this,

01:09:44.591 --> 01:09:44.770
I mean,

01:09:44.810 --> 01:09:47.051
I'm seeing there's predictions of whether

01:09:47.091 --> 01:09:48.073
this bill will pass.

01:09:49.894 --> 01:09:51.715
But do you think this is something that

01:09:51.755 --> 01:09:52.876
will pass?

01:09:53.076 --> 01:09:53.256
Like,

01:09:53.296 --> 01:09:55.797
is this something that is most likely to

01:09:55.898 --> 01:09:57.859
not have any issues passing through the

01:09:57.918 --> 01:09:59.460
Senate and the President or...?

01:10:00.525 --> 01:10:01.726
Honestly, I don't know.

01:10:01.926 --> 01:10:05.609
I'm not politically aware and educated

01:10:05.649 --> 01:10:07.610
enough to really be able to speculate

01:10:07.690 --> 01:10:08.310
reliably.

01:10:08.990 --> 01:10:11.893
Although I will say like two thirds of

01:10:11.912 --> 01:10:12.974
the people voted yes.

01:10:13.033 --> 01:10:16.256
So I mean, that's a pretty big margin.

01:10:17.497 --> 01:10:20.679
It does say on this website that I

01:10:20.719 --> 01:10:23.199
found govtrack.us that there's a thirty

01:10:23.220 --> 01:10:24.980
four percent chance of being enacted.

01:10:25.141 --> 01:10:27.162
So I don't know really what that means.

01:10:28.710 --> 01:10:29.010
in that.

01:10:29.069 --> 01:10:30.430
It means we should still call our

01:10:30.470 --> 01:10:32.331
representatives and not trust that to be

01:10:32.371 --> 01:10:33.011
the case.

01:10:34.770 --> 01:10:36.372
Because all I'll say is the Eurovision

01:10:36.492 --> 01:10:38.072
odds that I read every year are

01:10:38.412 --> 01:10:40.353
hilariously wrong and off.

01:10:40.533 --> 01:10:42.132
So I don't know if I trust the

01:10:42.212 --> 01:10:43.393
odds on anything at this point.

01:10:43.412 --> 01:10:46.113
Yeah.

01:10:46.134 --> 01:10:48.975
So I guess how can people access a

01:10:49.015 --> 01:10:49.274
list?

01:10:49.295 --> 01:10:52.114
How can they find who their senators are?

01:10:52.314 --> 01:10:53.515
Because you said it doesn't really matter

01:10:53.555 --> 01:10:55.115
because it's past the House at this point.

01:10:55.155 --> 01:10:55.315
So

01:10:56.560 --> 01:10:58.739
Um, so yeah, no, good question.

01:10:58.760 --> 01:10:59.961
So there is senate.gov.

01:11:00.100 --> 01:11:00.780
And honestly,

01:11:00.881 --> 01:11:02.581
if you just type into any search engine,

01:11:02.600 --> 01:11:04.520
um, if you just type in like,

01:11:04.560 --> 01:11:05.641
who is my representative,

01:11:06.162 --> 01:11:09.122
there are so many websites that, uh,

01:11:09.181 --> 01:11:10.542
you will have to put in an address.

01:11:10.641 --> 01:11:11.823
I'm telling you people that right now,

01:11:12.363 --> 01:11:14.122
because they need to know what district

01:11:14.143 --> 01:11:14.462
you're in.

01:11:14.863 --> 01:11:15.643
But to be fair,

01:11:15.682 --> 01:11:16.804
when we're talking about the national

01:11:16.823 --> 01:11:17.064
level,

01:11:17.484 --> 01:11:18.644
probably doesn't have to be like your

01:11:18.703 --> 01:11:19.344
exact address.

01:11:19.363 --> 01:11:20.344
Maybe it can be the house across the

01:11:20.363 --> 01:11:20.583
street.

01:11:20.663 --> 01:11:20.984
I don't know.

01:11:21.083 --> 01:11:22.965
But, um, there are so like, okay,

01:11:22.984 --> 01:11:24.104
so I just typed it into brave search.

01:11:24.125 --> 01:11:24.944
Who is my representative?

01:11:24.965 --> 01:11:25.045
Okay.

01:11:25.244 --> 01:11:26.945
First result, House of Representatives,

01:11:26.985 --> 01:11:27.627
house.gov.

01:11:27.667 --> 01:11:29.068
Second result, congress.gov.

01:11:29.787 --> 01:11:31.429
Third result, commoncause.org.

01:11:32.329 --> 01:11:33.831
This one's for New York City specifically.

01:11:33.850 --> 01:11:35.351
This one's for California specifically.

01:11:35.872 --> 01:11:39.654
USA.gov, senate.gov, Texas, Pennsylvania.

01:11:39.774 --> 01:11:40.654
So, I mean, yeah,

01:11:40.756 --> 01:11:43.596
there's no wealth or no shortage of

01:11:44.238 --> 01:11:45.538
websites that will help you.

01:11:46.279 --> 01:11:48.600
Ballotpedia, I've seen them around a lot.

01:11:50.601 --> 01:11:51.283
Some of them, like...

01:11:52.431 --> 01:11:54.752
house.gov and senate.gov and congress.gov

01:11:54.771 --> 01:11:56.693
focus on the federal level but i've seen

01:11:56.752 --> 01:11:58.212
some websites i think it's common cause

01:11:58.493 --> 01:12:00.054
will literally go all the way down to

01:12:00.073 --> 01:12:02.293
like here is your local school board

01:12:02.573 --> 01:12:04.194
superintendent like some of them get

01:12:04.333 --> 01:12:07.234
really really deep down there so um yeah

01:12:07.274 --> 01:12:08.854
you definitely don't have to dig too hard

01:12:08.875 --> 01:12:12.435
to find the national ones for sure yeah

01:12:12.456 --> 01:12:14.416
it's interesting i've seen uh quite a lot

01:12:14.435 --> 01:12:17.716
of coverage about this like kids act thing

01:12:18.296 --> 01:12:19.917
and i've actually been seeing like stuff

01:12:19.938 --> 01:12:21.377
about people saying it doesn't go far

01:12:21.417 --> 01:12:21.717
enough

01:12:22.631 --> 01:12:25.551
it needs to go further.

01:12:26.952 --> 01:12:29.733
Please, please, please, please,

01:12:29.972 --> 01:12:31.054
please don't make this happen.

01:12:31.134 --> 01:12:33.515
Cause I think once this passes in the

01:12:33.635 --> 01:12:35.635
U S I think it's, it is,

01:12:35.715 --> 01:12:37.015
it's such a massive precedent for

01:12:37.055 --> 01:12:37.735
everywhere else.

01:12:38.095 --> 01:12:38.536
It's like, Oh,

01:12:38.615 --> 01:12:39.636
it's in the U S you know,

01:12:39.676 --> 01:12:40.157
like it's,

01:12:40.877 --> 01:12:41.976
if it's good enough for the U S

01:12:41.997 --> 01:12:43.278
it's good enough for everywhere else.

01:12:43.297 --> 01:12:43.537
Like,

01:12:44.457 --> 01:12:45.139
Um,

01:12:45.179 --> 01:12:47.460
so hopefully we can avoid that happening.

01:12:48.060 --> 01:12:48.520
Um,

01:12:49.820 --> 01:12:51.322
and that it doesn't get even worse than

01:12:51.341 --> 01:12:51.981
what it already is.

01:12:52.301 --> 01:12:53.103
Can it change?

01:12:53.143 --> 01:12:54.783
Can the bill change once it gets,

01:12:55.304 --> 01:12:56.423
or does it have to re go through

01:12:56.463 --> 01:12:57.045
the house again?

01:12:58.085 --> 01:12:59.565
I think it would have to go through

01:12:59.586 --> 01:13:00.185
the house again.

01:13:00.485 --> 01:13:01.207
I could be wrong,

01:13:01.247 --> 01:13:02.487
but I think it can change.

01:13:02.546 --> 01:13:02.827
Yes.

01:13:02.846 --> 01:13:03.148
They,

01:13:03.268 --> 01:13:04.648
it can get to the Senate and somebody

01:13:04.688 --> 01:13:05.509
could be like, no,

01:13:05.569 --> 01:13:06.748
we need to amend this part.

01:13:07.310 --> 01:13:08.729
But I think if they make changes,

01:13:08.770 --> 01:13:10.371
it has to go back to the beginning,

01:13:10.551 --> 01:13:11.532
but I could be wrong about that.

01:13:12.685 --> 01:13:13.006
Okay.

01:13:13.466 --> 01:13:16.891
So we still have, there's still hope.

01:13:17.453 --> 01:13:17.752
Okay.

01:13:18.054 --> 01:13:20.037
Yeah, that's, that's,

01:13:20.358 --> 01:13:21.939
the US has got nothing on the EU

01:13:21.979 --> 01:13:22.520
plans,

01:13:23.101 --> 01:13:25.265
like chat control and age verification for

01:13:25.326 --> 01:13:25.907
all the things.

01:13:27.039 --> 01:13:28.560
Um, yeah,

01:13:28.600 --> 01:13:29.962
I think there's different problems.

01:13:30.481 --> 01:13:31.622
There's different problems in different

01:13:31.643 --> 01:13:32.323
countries, right?

01:13:32.382 --> 01:13:32.643
Like,

01:13:33.884 --> 01:13:35.364
I think there's the US has a massive

01:13:35.385 --> 01:13:36.626
problem with data brokers,

01:13:37.126 --> 01:13:38.947
which is not really the case in Europe.

01:13:39.346 --> 01:13:40.868
A lot of data is public in the

01:13:40.927 --> 01:13:41.307
US.

01:13:41.768 --> 01:13:42.828
So that's another issue.

01:13:44.430 --> 01:13:44.649
You know,

01:13:44.770 --> 01:13:47.412
every country has different concerns,

01:13:47.492 --> 01:13:47.771
I think.

01:13:48.511 --> 01:13:50.233
And I think it's not super smart to

01:13:50.274 --> 01:13:50.774
just, you know,

01:13:51.573 --> 01:13:53.775
start a ranking contest about which

01:13:53.815 --> 01:13:55.917
country is better and all this silliness

01:13:55.957 --> 01:13:56.518
because, you know,

01:13:56.537 --> 01:13:57.658
it doesn't really get us anywhere.

01:13:58.618 --> 01:14:02.981
I think we can be critical of every

01:14:03.021 --> 01:14:04.943
bad law that every country wants to put

01:14:04.962 --> 01:14:05.444
in place.

01:14:05.604 --> 01:14:07.104
And there's definitely some terrible stuff

01:14:07.125 --> 01:14:08.466
going on in the EU as well,

01:14:09.686 --> 01:14:11.307
which we've talked about extensively as

01:14:11.368 --> 01:14:11.627
well.

01:14:12.007 --> 01:14:13.408
It's not like we're only focusing on the

01:14:13.488 --> 01:14:14.350
US in this case too.

01:14:14.369 --> 01:14:15.530
Yeah.

01:14:16.770 --> 01:14:18.811
another comment here from cisco i don't

01:14:18.851 --> 01:14:21.353
know if you've seen but bill c-thirty-six

01:14:21.412 --> 01:14:23.333
in canada it's banning social media for

01:14:23.373 --> 01:14:27.154
people under sixteen yes we've been kind

01:14:27.175 --> 01:14:29.275
of following that there's c-two and

01:14:29.355 --> 01:14:32.516
c-twenty-two and c-thirty-six um they're

01:14:32.556 --> 01:14:32.917
all pretty

01:14:33.506 --> 01:14:34.528
pretty terrible stuff.

01:14:36.009 --> 01:14:38.729
I did see that currently the Canadian

01:14:38.770 --> 01:14:40.030
parliament is on break.

01:14:40.451 --> 01:14:43.552
So there's a bit of time to contact

01:14:43.592 --> 01:14:45.755
people, your representatives about that.

01:14:47.256 --> 01:14:48.076
Dag Overholt said,

01:14:48.576 --> 01:14:50.457
EU protects you from corpos as long as

01:14:50.518 --> 01:14:52.439
the government has complete control.

01:14:52.458 --> 01:14:56.280
Okay.

01:14:56.360 --> 01:15:00.904
It's definitely a different way of running

01:15:00.944 --> 01:15:01.404
a country.

01:15:01.724 --> 01:15:02.404
Let's just say that.

01:15:04.358 --> 01:15:04.597
Yeah,

01:15:05.918 --> 01:15:08.319
so that's kind of all we've got on

01:15:08.420 --> 01:15:08.880
this,

01:15:09.440 --> 01:15:12.922
unless you had anything else to add on?

01:15:13.042 --> 01:15:13.823
Yeah, not really.

01:15:15.604 --> 01:15:16.384
Yeah,

01:15:16.423 --> 01:15:17.744
I guess we can move into the Q&A

01:15:17.784 --> 01:15:18.164
section.

01:15:18.525 --> 01:15:20.327
So we'll start by...

01:15:21.689 --> 01:15:22.029
Excuse me.

01:15:22.511 --> 01:15:23.813
We'll start by taking questions on the

01:15:23.853 --> 01:15:25.555
forum from our paying members.

01:15:26.055 --> 01:15:26.935
And as a reminder,

01:15:26.975 --> 01:15:28.198
you can become a member by going to

01:15:28.238 --> 01:15:31.121
privacyguides.org slash donate or anywhere

01:15:31.261 --> 01:15:32.302
on privacyguides.org.

01:15:32.323 --> 01:15:33.703
You can click the red heart icon in

01:15:33.724 --> 01:15:34.524
the top right corner.

01:15:35.769 --> 01:15:36.429
Um,

01:15:36.488 --> 01:15:39.190
so we had one reminder on the thread

01:15:39.350 --> 01:15:40.971
to consider adding XMR chat.

01:15:41.152 --> 01:15:43.472
Um, Jonah is actually off this week.

01:15:44.132 --> 01:15:45.194
So, uh, again,

01:15:45.274 --> 01:15:46.934
he handles a lot of the higher level

01:15:46.953 --> 01:15:47.694
decisions like that.

01:15:48.114 --> 01:15:50.315
I know he's expressed interest in adding

01:15:50.456 --> 01:15:51.076
XMR chat.

01:15:51.155 --> 01:15:54.037
It's just, um, again, yeah, it's, uh,

01:15:54.057 --> 01:15:55.417
there's a lot going on here.

01:15:55.478 --> 01:15:55.698
You know,

01:15:55.738 --> 01:15:57.418
he did the Cape interview and there's

01:15:57.439 --> 01:15:58.739
just, uh,

01:15:58.760 --> 01:15:59.760
I don't know where it is on the

01:15:59.779 --> 01:15:59.979
list,

01:16:00.020 --> 01:16:02.280
but I'm pretty sure it is on the

01:16:02.320 --> 01:16:02.641
list.

01:16:02.881 --> 01:16:03.322
And, uh,

01:16:04.474 --> 01:16:04.694
Again,

01:16:05.154 --> 01:16:06.596
reminder that you can just donate Monero

01:16:06.617 --> 01:16:07.278
directly.

01:16:07.297 --> 01:16:08.198
I know it's not quite the same as

01:16:08.279 --> 01:16:11.122
XMR chat, but it is there.

01:16:12.003 --> 01:16:12.203
Yeah.

01:16:13.345 --> 01:16:15.148
Any donation is always appreciated.

01:16:15.188 --> 01:16:16.829
There's also a comment here from...

01:16:18.038 --> 01:16:20.039
Cisco five, five, six,

01:16:20.260 --> 01:16:23.301
one who said I'm planning on contacting my

01:16:23.381 --> 01:16:23.640
rep,

01:16:23.680 --> 01:16:25.261
but I don't really know what to say.

01:16:25.900 --> 01:16:26.100
Okay.

01:16:26.140 --> 01:16:28.582
So for people in Canada,

01:16:28.881 --> 01:16:33.023
there is open media is who you probably

01:16:33.042 --> 01:16:33.622
want to look at.

01:16:33.722 --> 01:16:35.083
They have been running a really good

01:16:35.123 --> 01:16:40.164
campaign against basically every privacy

01:16:40.204 --> 01:16:40.885
invasive thing.

01:16:42.865 --> 01:16:43.466
I think they've, yeah,

01:16:43.485 --> 01:16:45.226
they've got a press release already out

01:16:45.707 --> 01:16:46.487
about the,

01:16:47.228 --> 01:16:51.291
um bills c-thirty-four bills c-sixty-three

01:16:51.650 --> 01:16:54.592
so a whole bunch of them there um

01:16:54.632 --> 01:16:57.855
so check out open media openmedia.org um

01:16:57.876 --> 01:17:00.016
they've got a lot of good resources and

01:17:00.056 --> 01:17:03.840
I think they also have yeah they have

01:17:04.119 --> 01:17:08.703
other related stuff as well not just like

01:17:09.083 --> 01:17:10.524
privacy related stuff there's stuff

01:17:10.545 --> 01:17:13.266
related to other um

01:17:15.359 --> 01:17:18.680
I guess consumer protection stuff.

01:17:18.800 --> 01:17:20.661
So it's worth checking out that as well.

01:17:20.701 --> 01:17:21.820
It's probably stuff that you'd also

01:17:21.881 --> 01:17:22.280
support.

01:17:22.381 --> 01:17:24.242
So they're a great organization.

01:17:24.421 --> 01:17:24.502
Um,

01:17:24.542 --> 01:17:26.323
I don't know of any more in Canada.

01:17:26.342 --> 01:17:27.603
That's the only one that I know.

01:17:28.182 --> 01:17:29.423
Um, but I know they do good work.

01:17:29.444 --> 01:17:32.744
So if you need, if you need some,

01:17:34.546 --> 01:17:36.345
I guess, extra info on what to say,

01:17:36.525 --> 01:17:38.447
they've got, I've got you covered.

01:17:41.702 --> 01:17:44.485
So I thought of the American route and

01:17:44.506 --> 01:17:44.525
I,

01:17:46.007 --> 01:17:46.748
my first thought

01:17:48.323 --> 01:17:48.783
Hot take,

01:17:48.823 --> 01:17:50.925
let me finish to the people in the

01:17:51.045 --> 01:17:51.404
audience.

01:17:51.784 --> 01:17:53.166
My first thought is this could be a

01:17:53.185 --> 01:17:54.806
good use for an LLM,

01:17:55.608 --> 01:17:56.708
like Leo or Lumo,

01:17:56.748 --> 01:17:58.170
like one of the privacy respecting ones.

01:17:58.590 --> 01:17:59.109
But like, hey,

01:17:59.210 --> 01:18:00.070
I want to oppose this act.

01:18:00.171 --> 01:18:01.731
I don't know what to say and it'll

01:18:01.811 --> 01:18:02.512
walk you through it.

01:18:03.132 --> 01:18:05.654
Alternately, if you prefer not to use AI,

01:18:05.694 --> 01:18:06.715
which I totally don't blame you,

01:18:07.176 --> 01:18:09.056
I literally just typed in oppose the kids

01:18:09.157 --> 01:18:11.158
act into Brave.

01:18:11.819 --> 01:18:12.219
And okay,

01:18:12.238 --> 01:18:13.039
I don't know anything about this

01:18:13.060 --> 01:18:13.619
organization,

01:18:14.039 --> 01:18:15.701
but the very first result that popped up

01:18:15.720 --> 01:18:18.042
was a website called fivecalls.org.

01:18:18.984 --> 01:18:20.125
And it has,

01:18:20.225 --> 01:18:21.386
if you click that link and scroll down

01:18:21.405 --> 01:18:23.487
to the bottom, it has a script.

01:18:24.068 --> 01:18:24.307
Hi,

01:18:24.328 --> 01:18:25.929
my name is blank and I'm a constituent

01:18:25.948 --> 01:18:26.970
from city and zip code.

01:18:27.050 --> 01:18:28.211
They will ask for your zip code in

01:18:28.230 --> 01:18:28.771
my experience.

01:18:28.792 --> 01:18:30.012
That's like the thing they care about.

01:18:30.472 --> 01:18:32.215
I'm calling to demand that representative

01:18:32.234 --> 01:18:34.697
slash Senator who oppose HR seven, seven,

01:18:34.737 --> 01:18:35.197
five, seven,

01:18:35.237 --> 01:18:36.778
the house pass kids act and any other

01:18:36.797 --> 01:18:38.520
legislative package that includes COSA and

01:18:38.579 --> 01:18:39.600
age verification requirements.

01:18:39.940 --> 01:18:41.282
Broad legislation like this does nothing

01:18:41.322 --> 01:18:41.983
to protect anyone.

01:18:42.023 --> 01:18:43.323
Instead it blocks state's level laws and

01:18:43.344 --> 01:18:44.465
shield big tech companies from

01:18:44.604 --> 01:18:45.164
accountability.

01:18:45.244 --> 01:18:45.945
It must be opposed.

01:18:46.206 --> 01:18:46.966
Thank you for your time.

01:18:48.018 --> 01:18:48.738
Pretty straightforward.

01:18:48.938 --> 01:18:49.118
Sorry,

01:18:49.137 --> 01:18:50.037
I know I read that kind of fast.

01:18:50.099 --> 01:18:53.639
But, you know, just, I mean,

01:18:54.298 --> 01:18:55.359
maybe post in the forum,

01:18:55.399 --> 01:18:56.899
like on this actual topic,

01:18:57.180 --> 01:19:01.720
like you could get some opinions from

01:19:01.761 --> 01:19:02.121
other people.

01:19:02.201 --> 01:19:02.680
Or honestly,

01:19:02.701 --> 01:19:03.822
what I've done in the past is,

01:19:04.141 --> 01:19:05.261
because I was opposing,

01:19:05.362 --> 01:19:06.042
I think it was like the,

01:19:07.342 --> 01:19:08.422
was it called like the LEAD Act?

01:19:08.443 --> 01:19:11.304
Like the Lawful Law Enforcement Access to

01:19:11.344 --> 01:19:12.104
Data or something.

01:19:12.123 --> 01:19:13.264
I don't know, it was a backdoor act.

01:19:13.543 --> 01:19:14.463
But I would literally call them,

01:19:14.484 --> 01:19:16.725
because I had like three federal or state

01:19:16.744 --> 01:19:17.564
level organizations

01:19:18.037 --> 01:19:19.018
state level, federal level.

01:19:19.118 --> 01:19:20.458
I had three like federal level reps I

01:19:20.479 --> 01:19:20.859
had to call.

01:19:21.300 --> 01:19:22.359
And so I would literally just call them

01:19:22.399 --> 01:19:22.960
on my lunch break,

01:19:23.039 --> 01:19:23.780
every single one of them.

01:19:24.240 --> 01:19:25.421
And I would say that like, hi,

01:19:25.521 --> 01:19:26.641
I'm calling from this zip code.

01:19:26.721 --> 01:19:27.282
I'm a voter.

01:19:27.783 --> 01:19:28.563
I oppose this thing.

01:19:28.962 --> 01:19:29.904
And they would just take it down,

01:19:29.923 --> 01:19:31.104
write it down and go, okay, thank you.

01:19:31.344 --> 01:19:32.064
And that's it.

01:19:32.145 --> 01:19:32.324
Like,

01:19:33.353 --> 01:19:35.014
I don't know if it's less effective than

01:19:35.033 --> 01:19:35.814
giving them a why,

01:19:35.873 --> 01:19:38.855
but you don't have to say much is

01:19:38.895 --> 01:19:39.695
what I'm getting at.

01:19:39.735 --> 01:19:41.237
Just expressing any opposition.

01:19:42.077 --> 01:19:43.518
Just the thing I always tell people,

01:19:43.597 --> 01:19:45.338
please be sane.

01:19:46.219 --> 01:19:47.319
Don't tell them they're evil.

01:19:47.380 --> 01:19:48.420
Don't tell them they're stupid.

01:19:48.680 --> 01:19:49.260
Be polite.

01:19:49.399 --> 01:19:50.621
Just like I oppose this.

01:19:50.720 --> 01:19:51.761
This is not the right way to solve

01:19:51.782 --> 01:19:52.141
this issue.

01:19:57.208 --> 01:19:59.289
I do see we actually just got a

01:19:59.329 --> 01:20:03.273
question in the forum thread.

01:20:03.292 --> 01:20:04.393
Oh, sorry.

01:20:05.394 --> 01:20:05.833
That says,

01:20:06.134 --> 01:20:07.454
how important is threat modeling for

01:20:07.515 --> 01:20:07.994
privacy?

01:20:08.095 --> 01:20:09.536
I've put that off for the longest time,

01:20:09.956 --> 01:20:11.457
which has led to a lot of underprotecting

01:20:11.556 --> 01:20:12.597
or overprotecting.

01:20:13.018 --> 01:20:14.078
I don't feel like it's talked about

01:20:14.118 --> 01:20:14.319
enough.

01:20:14.559 --> 01:20:15.259
That's funny, because I...

01:20:16.380 --> 01:20:18.501
I harp on threat modeling constantly,

01:20:18.621 --> 01:20:19.820
and I still feel like there was a

01:20:19.860 --> 01:20:20.820
point where I was like, okay,

01:20:20.841 --> 01:20:21.881
I think we've talked about this enough.

01:20:21.940 --> 01:20:24.421
But in general,

01:20:24.921 --> 01:20:26.582
so I mean it's – I think it's

01:20:26.702 --> 01:20:28.143
personally – I think it's really important

01:20:28.162 --> 01:20:28.882
because like you said,

01:20:28.943 --> 01:20:29.863
without threat modeling,

01:20:29.903 --> 01:20:31.444
you don't know if you're doing too much

01:20:31.484 --> 01:20:32.264
or doing too little.

01:20:32.944 --> 01:20:34.663
And especially I think a lot of people

01:20:34.684 --> 01:20:36.024
in the privacy community have a habit of

01:20:36.085 --> 01:20:36.944
doing too much.

01:20:37.725 --> 01:20:38.685
And not realizing, you know,

01:20:38.725 --> 01:20:40.145
to the point where it starts to impact

01:20:40.225 --> 01:20:42.728
like mental health or, you know,

01:20:42.747 --> 01:20:44.269
relationships with friends and family.

01:20:44.889 --> 01:20:45.710
And it's like, OK,

01:20:45.789 --> 01:20:48.150
you can pull back like you're you're not

01:20:48.831 --> 01:20:50.631
you're not a spy operating in North Korea.

01:20:50.712 --> 01:20:52.252
You don't need to be that hardcore.

01:20:54.014 --> 01:20:54.854
But alternately, yeah,

01:20:54.873 --> 01:20:55.975
it could lead to a lot of like,

01:20:56.295 --> 01:20:56.375
oh,

01:20:56.454 --> 01:21:00.277
I'm using Linux with – I'm using cubes

01:21:00.296 --> 01:21:02.136
and graphene and all this super secure

01:21:02.157 --> 01:21:03.037
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

01:21:03.118 --> 01:21:04.137
And it's like, okay, cool.

01:21:05.018 --> 01:21:06.439
Have you taken your data down from the

01:21:06.479 --> 01:21:08.039
internet from before you got into privacy?

01:21:10.301 --> 01:21:11.900
So I think it is really important,

01:21:11.980 --> 01:21:13.402
although I will say that I don't think

01:21:13.481 --> 01:21:14.841
it –

01:21:15.409 --> 01:21:16.229
Um, number one,

01:21:16.289 --> 01:21:17.371
I don't think it necessarily has to be

01:21:17.390 --> 01:21:18.390
a formal process.

01:21:18.430 --> 01:21:18.570
Like,

01:21:18.591 --> 01:21:19.770
I don't think you need to sit down,

01:21:19.810 --> 01:21:21.011
like you're making a budget at the dinner

01:21:21.051 --> 01:21:21.332
table.

01:21:21.671 --> 01:21:23.731
And the other thing that I haven't found

01:21:23.752 --> 01:21:24.953
a good way how to explain this yet,

01:21:24.993 --> 01:21:28.894
but I think something that doesn't get

01:21:28.934 --> 01:21:31.413
talked about enough is the fact that a

01:21:31.434 --> 01:21:34.114
threat model is less of like a specific

01:21:34.534 --> 01:21:37.176
thing, like a specific consistent thing.

01:21:37.256 --> 01:21:38.136
And it's more of like,

01:21:40.296 --> 01:21:41.077
I guess I would say it's more of

01:21:41.096 --> 01:21:43.037
a philosophy for how you approach data

01:21:43.217 --> 01:21:44.618
because in the sense of like, um,

01:21:46.592 --> 01:21:46.873
Like,

01:21:47.213 --> 01:21:48.315
I'm trying to think of an example here.

01:21:52.261 --> 01:21:54.404
So, okay, no, so this is an example.

01:21:54.423 --> 01:21:56.667
I don't know if this is a good

01:21:56.707 --> 01:21:57.587
example, but I...

01:22:00.324 --> 01:22:02.405
In non-privacy online spaces,

01:22:02.926 --> 01:22:04.246
because I do hang out on those sometimes,

01:22:04.765 --> 01:22:06.947
I typically don't post photos of myself

01:22:07.067 --> 01:22:08.367
because I don't want,

01:22:08.688 --> 01:22:09.648
even though it's very unlikely,

01:22:09.807 --> 01:22:11.488
I know Privacy Guides is not that famous

01:22:11.507 --> 01:22:12.868
and neither is the new oil or anything,

01:22:13.248 --> 01:22:14.408
but I don't want the off chance of

01:22:14.429 --> 01:22:15.590
somebody like, oh my God, you're Nate,

01:22:15.609 --> 01:22:16.289
like I recognize you.

01:22:17.694 --> 01:22:19.836
But I mean, like offline, you know,

01:22:19.935 --> 01:22:21.136
if my wife is like, hey,

01:22:21.157 --> 01:22:22.639
can I take a selfie of us doing,

01:22:22.798 --> 01:22:23.019
you know,

01:22:23.038 --> 01:22:24.661
this this Christmas event together?

01:22:24.720 --> 01:22:25.681
Like, yeah, of course.

01:22:25.782 --> 01:22:26.261
I don't care.

01:22:26.322 --> 01:22:28.724
Like it's it's it's not about a consistent

01:22:28.743 --> 01:22:30.025
like no photos of me ever.

01:22:30.166 --> 01:22:30.426
Right.

01:22:30.506 --> 01:22:31.466
It's it's contextual.

01:22:31.487 --> 01:22:32.747
It's like, where is this photo going?

01:22:32.787 --> 01:22:33.588
What is it used for?

01:22:33.628 --> 01:22:34.569
Who's it being shared with?

01:22:34.869 --> 01:22:36.291
what are the risks of this photo?

01:22:36.331 --> 01:22:37.350
My wife might send it to the group

01:22:37.390 --> 01:22:38.511
chat, the family group chat,

01:22:38.591 --> 01:22:39.511
but who cares?

01:22:39.572 --> 01:22:40.672
Everyone there knows what I look like.

01:22:40.693 --> 01:22:41.453
And I don't know,

01:22:41.493 --> 01:22:42.673
maybe that wasn't the best example.

01:22:43.493 --> 01:22:44.854
I'm working live here off the cuff.

01:22:44.894 --> 01:22:46.555
But my point being is like,

01:22:46.814 --> 01:22:49.115
it doesn't have to be the same level

01:22:49.136 --> 01:22:51.716
of protection across the board because it

01:22:51.737 --> 01:22:53.717
can be very contextual on like,

01:22:53.757 --> 01:22:54.378
what are the risks?

01:22:54.418 --> 01:22:56.259
What are the likelihoods?

01:22:56.399 --> 01:22:58.100
That's all part of threat modeling and it

01:22:58.140 --> 01:23:00.280
will vary from situation to situation.

01:23:01.042 --> 01:23:01.921
I don't know if that made sense.

01:23:04.573 --> 01:23:05.654
No, I think you're,

01:23:05.975 --> 01:23:07.114
you brought up some good points.

01:23:07.194 --> 01:23:07.534
Yeah.

01:23:07.755 --> 01:23:10.576
I mean, I don't think it's, uh,

01:23:12.377 --> 01:23:16.139
I don't think you have to, uh,

01:23:16.798 --> 01:23:20.739
do anything super quickly as well.

01:23:20.921 --> 01:23:24.162
Cause I do feel like some people they've,

01:23:24.301 --> 01:23:25.502
they were like, oh my goodness,

01:23:25.542 --> 01:23:27.063
I found out like how my data's being

01:23:27.182 --> 01:23:28.804
used for all these like terrible things.

01:23:28.923 --> 01:23:30.623
And now I've got to like update every

01:23:30.644 --> 01:23:31.585
password and like,

01:23:32.756 --> 01:23:33.778
secure every account,

01:23:33.898 --> 01:23:35.658
delete hundreds of accounts today.

01:23:35.698 --> 01:23:37.319
It's like, no,

01:23:37.559 --> 01:23:38.920
like you got to slow down a little

01:23:38.960 --> 01:23:39.119
bit.

01:23:39.220 --> 01:23:41.921
Like don't, don't, don't go too fast.

01:23:42.042 --> 01:23:45.523
You know, don't, um,

01:23:45.542 --> 01:23:49.045
think things through and yeah, it's,

01:23:49.064 --> 01:23:50.105
it can definitely,

01:23:50.126 --> 01:23:51.626
you can definitely go too far.

01:23:51.886 --> 01:23:54.807
I think, um, yeah, I don't,

01:23:56.792 --> 01:23:57.631
I don't really know.

01:23:57.731 --> 01:23:57.971
I mean,

01:23:58.351 --> 01:24:00.432
I don't personally share a whole lot about

01:24:00.653 --> 01:24:02.953
stuff that I do on the internet with

01:24:02.974 --> 01:24:03.894
people in real life.

01:24:04.234 --> 01:24:06.793
Um, so it's always just a nebulous,

01:24:07.555 --> 01:24:11.576
I work on internet things and that's kind

01:24:11.636 --> 01:24:11.916
of it.

01:24:12.176 --> 01:24:14.176
Um, but I think, you know, it's,

01:24:15.015 --> 01:24:16.936
it's good to think about like what your,

01:24:18.716 --> 01:24:18.936
uh,

01:24:21.238 --> 01:24:24.979
what your threats are because you know,

01:24:26.173 --> 01:24:26.774
me and Nate,

01:24:26.835 --> 01:24:29.096
cause we're on this public podcast are

01:24:29.117 --> 01:24:29.818
going to have different,

01:24:29.957 --> 01:24:33.060
a different threat model than you as a

01:24:33.122 --> 01:24:34.762
person just participating in our forum,

01:24:34.823 --> 01:24:35.224
I guess.

01:24:35.564 --> 01:24:38.046
Um, not drastically different, but like,

01:24:38.466 --> 01:24:41.510
you know, obviously we're sharing names,

01:24:41.630 --> 01:24:42.851
Nate's sharing his face,

01:24:42.992 --> 01:24:44.073
I'm sharing my voice.

01:24:44.353 --> 01:24:45.694
Um, so, you know,

01:24:45.875 --> 01:24:48.497
you have different threats to consider.

01:24:48.858 --> 01:24:48.957
Um,

01:24:50.725 --> 01:24:53.728
and I definitely think don't rush into

01:24:53.768 --> 01:24:59.091
things because um yeah you can make you

01:24:59.112 --> 01:25:02.594
can make decisions that you can't undo

01:25:02.894 --> 01:25:04.595
like for instance if you show your face

01:25:04.935 --> 01:25:06.197
well you kind of have to show your

01:25:06.216 --> 01:25:09.238
face forever right like you know um so

01:25:09.259 --> 01:25:12.341
you know just take that with uh

01:25:14.394 --> 01:25:18.315
take that as something as a warning,

01:25:18.435 --> 01:25:18.935
I guess.

01:25:19.936 --> 01:25:21.016
I've definitely made mistakes.

01:25:21.077 --> 01:25:23.398
I've definitely fumbled along things,

01:25:23.457 --> 01:25:26.239
but yeah,

01:25:26.380 --> 01:25:28.740
we're trying to work on more educational

01:25:28.820 --> 01:25:30.002
stuff to help people make their threat

01:25:30.021 --> 01:25:31.421
models and stuff like that.

01:25:31.702 --> 01:25:33.143
We did have a threat model series that

01:25:33.162 --> 01:25:34.404
we're working on at some point.

01:25:35.323 --> 01:25:37.725
It's just a lot because every week we

01:25:37.765 --> 01:25:39.945
have like a new video coming out or

01:25:39.966 --> 01:25:41.127
like, you know,

01:25:41.186 --> 01:25:42.667
stuff that we're working on and like,

01:25:43.427 --> 01:25:45.409
Other projects that we feel are more

01:25:45.449 --> 01:25:46.430
timely or whatever.

01:25:47.631 --> 01:25:49.212
So things kind of get swept down a

01:25:49.273 --> 01:25:50.273
bit sometimes.

01:25:50.873 --> 01:25:52.635
But it's something we do want to try

01:25:52.654 --> 01:25:54.337
and push to get done at some point

01:25:54.737 --> 01:25:55.557
to help people with that.

01:25:55.597 --> 01:25:57.559
Because it is like one of the most

01:25:57.599 --> 01:25:59.940
common questions that we do get about

01:26:00.201 --> 01:26:03.042
privacy related stuff.

01:26:03.063 --> 01:26:04.463
We should talk about that in the next

01:26:04.725 --> 01:26:05.244
staff meeting.

01:26:05.305 --> 01:26:07.146
Maybe now's a good time to do the

01:26:07.327 --> 01:26:08.507
threat modeling video.

01:26:08.608 --> 01:26:08.747
Yeah.

01:26:09.335 --> 01:26:09.796
Yeah,

01:26:09.855 --> 01:26:11.136
just to back up what you said at

01:26:11.157 --> 01:26:11.417
first,

01:26:11.457 --> 01:26:12.899
like the phrase I like to use is

01:26:12.979 --> 01:26:14.501
Rome wasn't built in a day, you know?

01:26:14.581 --> 01:26:14.961
And it's like,

01:26:15.681 --> 01:26:16.462
a lot of people will say that in

01:26:16.483 --> 01:26:17.583
like personal finance, right?

01:26:17.623 --> 01:26:18.905
Like if you wake up and you're like

01:26:18.945 --> 01:26:21.368
tens of thousands of dollars in debt and,

01:26:21.569 --> 01:26:23.110
you know, screaming towards bankruptcy,

01:26:23.511 --> 01:26:25.212
a lot of personal finance people will

01:26:25.233 --> 01:26:25.934
point out like, well,

01:26:25.953 --> 01:26:27.435
you probably didn't get there once, right?

01:26:27.494 --> 01:26:28.636
Like you probably didn't just go out and

01:26:28.657 --> 01:26:29.136
buy like,

01:26:30.057 --> 01:26:32.180
a mansion in the Beverly Hills and now

01:26:32.220 --> 01:26:32.760
you're screwed.

01:26:32.800 --> 01:26:34.582
Like it was probably a lot of really

01:26:34.622 --> 01:26:35.922
bad decisions that added up.

01:26:36.283 --> 01:26:37.243
And so you're not going to fix it

01:26:37.283 --> 01:26:37.724
overnight.

01:26:37.844 --> 01:26:39.085
And it's the same thing with privacy.

01:26:39.164 --> 01:26:40.065
Like you, you didn't,

01:26:40.666 --> 01:26:42.006
you didn't just wake up one day and

01:26:42.027 --> 01:26:44.408
like mainline all your ID straight to like

01:26:44.488 --> 01:26:45.350
a ransomware gang.

01:26:45.409 --> 01:26:48.112
It's happened over years of data breaches

01:26:48.152 --> 01:26:49.813
and sharing too much on social media and

01:26:49.832 --> 01:26:50.453
this and that.

01:26:50.514 --> 01:26:52.536
So yeah,

01:26:52.576 --> 01:26:54.796
definitely like pacing yourself going

01:26:54.837 --> 01:26:55.217
slow.

01:26:56.958 --> 01:26:58.279
I do agree with your last part,

01:26:58.920 --> 01:26:59.440
but it's, it's,

01:27:01.604 --> 01:27:02.585
I want to say yes and no,

01:27:02.625 --> 01:27:03.784
because there are certain things that,

01:27:03.805 --> 01:27:04.145
like you said,

01:27:04.166 --> 01:27:05.246
like you put your face out there.

01:27:05.985 --> 01:27:07.426
I wouldn't say you have to keep doing

01:27:07.466 --> 01:27:08.506
it, but it's certainly harder,

01:27:08.626 --> 01:27:09.587
especially the more you do it.

01:27:09.606 --> 01:27:10.106
Like at this point,

01:27:10.146 --> 01:27:11.346
my face will probably never be off the

01:27:11.386 --> 01:27:12.527
internet, but you know,

01:27:12.587 --> 01:27:13.447
if you do it once,

01:27:13.527 --> 01:27:15.347
like you could probably take it offline,

01:27:15.448 --> 01:27:16.868
but you do have to acknowledge that you

01:27:16.887 --> 01:27:17.268
might not,

01:27:17.328 --> 01:27:18.427
maybe somebody screenshotted it,

01:27:18.448 --> 01:27:20.088
maybe somebody archived it, whatever.

01:27:20.569 --> 01:27:21.649
Um,

01:27:21.689 --> 01:27:22.908
but also there's a lot of other things

01:27:22.948 --> 01:27:25.609
in privacy that I think are reversible.

01:27:25.710 --> 01:27:26.130
Like, um,

01:27:27.583 --> 01:27:28.465
I think I've shared this before.

01:27:28.805 --> 01:27:29.706
When I first got into privacy,

01:27:29.765 --> 01:27:31.827
I deleted Steam because I was like, oh,

01:27:32.067 --> 01:27:32.868
I'm going to be into privacy.

01:27:32.887 --> 01:27:33.667
I'm not going to use Steam.

01:27:34.368 --> 01:27:35.189
And then over time,

01:27:35.229 --> 01:27:36.310
as I kind of adjusted and got a

01:27:36.329 --> 01:27:37.671
better feel for it, I'm like, actually,

01:27:38.271 --> 01:27:39.431
I'm willing to take the hit and keep

01:27:39.492 --> 01:27:40.073
using Steam.

01:27:40.372 --> 01:27:41.894
And I know in retrospect,

01:27:41.913 --> 01:27:42.755
I probably should have gone with some

01:27:42.774 --> 01:27:44.315
other platforms that are less problematic

01:27:44.336 --> 01:27:45.155
in terms of DRM.

01:27:45.195 --> 01:27:46.697
But from a privacy perspective,

01:27:46.716 --> 01:27:46.976
I was like,

01:27:47.018 --> 01:27:48.078
I'm willing to take the hit because these

01:27:48.097 --> 01:27:49.439
are games that bring me value and I

01:27:49.458 --> 01:27:50.460
enjoy playing them and

01:27:51.060 --> 01:27:53.162
And now I have to like repurchase all

01:27:53.203 --> 01:27:54.845
those games that I had over all those

01:27:54.864 --> 01:27:55.185
years.

01:27:55.265 --> 01:27:56.806
So instead,

01:27:56.827 --> 01:27:57.948
what I wish I had done is like,

01:27:58.048 --> 01:27:58.309
okay,

01:27:58.328 --> 01:27:59.951
just log out of Steam for like six

01:27:59.990 --> 01:28:02.434
months, you know, or, you know,

01:28:02.734 --> 01:28:04.195
you can always, if you delete Facebook,

01:28:04.216 --> 01:28:05.317
you can always sign back up.

01:28:05.396 --> 01:28:07.619
Like some decisions are reversible.

01:28:07.899 --> 01:28:08.720
And so I think there's,

01:28:09.761 --> 01:28:11.222
Um, it's just a balance.

01:28:11.262 --> 01:28:11.604
Like, yeah,

01:28:11.663 --> 01:28:13.664
some decisions are not easily reversible

01:28:13.685 --> 01:28:14.546
and you should put a lot of thought

01:28:14.565 --> 01:28:15.827
into them and not act right away.

01:28:15.846 --> 01:28:18.389
But then other ones are also like, eh,

01:28:18.408 --> 01:28:19.670
you know, you can always delete that app.

01:28:19.710 --> 01:28:20.690
You can always read, read,

01:28:20.711 --> 01:28:21.511
download that app.

01:28:21.572 --> 01:28:21.811
Like,

01:28:22.592 --> 01:28:24.774
so I can't really give you like a

01:28:25.015 --> 01:28:26.176
hard and fast rule, obviously,

01:28:26.216 --> 01:28:27.296
but just something to think about,

01:28:27.337 --> 01:28:27.537
I think.

01:28:28.890 --> 01:28:29.953
You are.

01:28:30.194 --> 01:28:30.333
Okay.

01:28:30.354 --> 01:28:30.755
There you go.

01:28:30.795 --> 01:28:30.954
Yeah.

01:28:31.235 --> 01:28:31.796
I think it's,

01:28:32.557 --> 01:28:35.864
I think the thing is definitely be careful

01:28:35.885 --> 01:28:37.488
with like email accounts and stuff like

01:28:37.528 --> 01:28:37.748
that.

01:28:37.809 --> 01:28:39.591
That's like probably one of the biggest

01:28:39.631 --> 01:28:40.875
mistakes that I made was like,

01:28:42.863 --> 01:28:44.324
Having a Gmail account and I was like,

01:28:44.425 --> 01:28:45.984
oh, I want to nuke it so bad.

01:28:46.284 --> 01:28:48.145
And I just nuked it like too quickly.

01:28:48.185 --> 01:28:49.506
And there was stuff that was... Oh, no.

01:28:50.006 --> 01:28:52.426
So it becomes a nightmare.

01:28:52.466 --> 01:28:54.507
So I would say keep it around for

01:28:54.528 --> 01:28:55.288
a couple of years.

01:28:55.569 --> 01:28:56.229
You can delete it.

01:28:56.448 --> 01:28:58.890
It'll feel a lot better once you finally

01:28:59.350 --> 01:29:00.170
are at a point where you're like,

01:29:00.350 --> 01:29:01.451
I can actually delete this.

01:29:02.551 --> 01:29:04.091
Because I guarantee you, you'll be like...

01:29:05.079 --> 01:29:05.840
Oh, wait,

01:29:05.960 --> 01:29:07.961
I remember I've got that account that I

01:29:08.001 --> 01:29:09.822
made on that website from like ten years

01:29:09.862 --> 01:29:10.162
ago.

01:29:10.341 --> 01:29:10.582
Oh,

01:29:10.641 --> 01:29:12.443
it's with my old email that I deleted.

01:29:12.502 --> 01:29:14.344
It's like, oh.

01:29:14.404 --> 01:29:15.604
You'll be able to sort it.

01:29:15.625 --> 01:29:17.805
For sure.

01:29:17.985 --> 01:29:18.586
Yeah, definitely.

01:29:21.926 --> 01:29:23.007
I feel like I had another quick thought

01:29:23.047 --> 01:29:24.167
on that one, but I can't remember it,

01:29:24.188 --> 01:29:25.328
so it must not have been that important.

01:29:28.729 --> 01:29:28.970
Yeah,

01:29:29.030 --> 01:29:32.152
I guess if nobody else has any questions,

01:29:32.851 --> 01:29:34.212
that's all I'm seeing on the forum.

01:29:35.256 --> 01:29:38.738
I guess we can close out here.

01:29:38.899 --> 01:29:39.279
Sounds good.

01:29:39.338 --> 01:29:40.880
Yeah, let's do it.

01:29:40.939 --> 01:29:42.320
Alrighty.

01:29:42.341 --> 01:29:42.662
All right.

01:29:43.341 --> 01:29:44.563
Well, thanks everyone for watching.

01:29:44.703 --> 01:29:46.524
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