Jessie Cruickshank: Hello and welcome to the ordinary
discipleship podcast. I am Jesse Cruikshank, and I am here today,
actually, on location in Hilo, Hawaii, with my dear friends,
Pastor Sheldon, Pastor bunny. My husband is here. Bob. Say Hi,
Bob. Hello, there you go. He's never on the podcast, but we've
recruited him today, and I am so excited to share and introduce
Sheldon and Bunny to you guys. They have been pastoring in
Hilo. They're best friends their whole lives, and they have been
doing this thing together. And what is amazing about them is
they have been practicing the process of turning a normal,
regular, classical kind of, you know, church that has programs
and cares about performance and all that stuff. And they have
been migrating that church, not from one that just makes
disciples, but to one that makes disciple makers. And so want to
have a conversation with you guys today about what that's
like, because I can, you know, share, hey, here's how we did
it. You know, the environments that I come from, but some to
some degree, you know, like the wilderness ministry that was
starting from scratch, to some degree, right? But you guys have
taken an existing congregation that has been around for decades
and have been moving it. My first question, just to kind of
warm us into it, is, how's that been and how long has it taken
to like, like, how long has it taken you to get to where you
are? So first of
Sheldon Lacsina: all, thank you for having us here. Thank you
for letting us be a part of ordinary discipleship. And we
listen to the podcast all the time. So I'm thankful I know for
you too, Bunny. The exciting part is watching what's taking
place today, because bunny brought this maybe seven years
ago. I don't know when she met you. I don't know
Unknown: how long that yeah, long time before you and I met,
yes. So a while
before. So when she brought it to me again, it was, yeah,
that's great. Sounds good, yeah. But this is what we're doing
at our church. We have discipleship programs, yeah,
yeah.
We have discipleship classes already. So what are you what
are we doing? So it took a couple years for me to even
catch the heart and vision of what she was talking about,
because it didn't, it didn't make sense. But when I saw her
life change, then I started to think, Wait, what is Why is she
different? Because we'd argue a lot, right? We're really good
friends, so maybe not argue. It's more like she's wrong and
I'm right and I'm like, How can you not see from my perspective?
Well, you thought you were right sometimes anyway. So that pause
says it all. So there are times when we remember there wasn't a
pause, yeah, it wasn't a pause. It was, uh, whatever you want to
believe, right? Wait
Jessie Cruickshank: so children, when you said that you didn't
understand, maybe like, Help us. Help us in. Know your frame of
mind at that time, either what you what you thought, or what
you heard, or, you know, because I'm sure there are people out
there who hear about, oh yeah, discipleship, yeah, even
ordinary discipleship. Sure, we should all make disciples. We're
already doing that whatever, so they might be able to under
identify with with worry.
Unknown: It was, it wasn't measurable. There wasn't a 12
week course. There were no metrics for it. There was no
certificate. There was this is what I knew, like, how we knew,
yeah, so what do you mean? No, that's and it was too simple.
It's just too simple. How can that? How can that make me feel
like I have authority? Because that's all we knew. You go
through this class, you get a certificate, and now you have
the authority to go do something in someone else's life, and now
you can mentor them that qualified you, because nobody
wants to be discipled using air quotes with someone who, like,
what are your credentials now? Who hasn't been certified?
Right? You're not certified to coach me. So that's what I
couldn't understand. I'm like, okay, so how does this make
sense in discipleship? And she used the term, I think it was
life on life, or something like that. She also used terms like,
you come alongside of people. You go on like you have your
journey. They have their journey. I'm like, Yeah, but
Jessie Cruickshank: I wish that. I wish the audience could see
your confused face. Oh my, yeah. We should
Unknown: have filmed film this too. So even in the context of
my neural pathway was this, this is what I knew my entire life.
She's bringing something that is so different and simple that I
just couldn't get it, not until we were talking about something,
and again, getting into a debate or back and forth kind of thing
that normally would go that way. As we're getting into it, she's
fine. She's like, Okay, that sounds great, if that's what you
feel the Lord saying we can do that at first, I thought she was
being sarcastic,
because bunny. Was
never sarcastic, never, never as Yeah. So, so when, when she said
it like that, I thought, okay, she being real? Or is that or
she's being sarcastic? So I said, so what does that mean?
She goes, No, that's fine. We can do that, and we'll get the
teams ready, whatever it was. And then the next time it
happened, I thought, that's different again. And then there
are certain other things that she wasn't doing. I was
thinking, Is she changing? Like, why is she Why is she different?
So I had that in the back of my mind. And then, and we, we do
life together, outside of ministry, with our family, our
children. So when I seen her different with her family and
with other people. I'm like. She's not acting she's not being
sarcastic. This is an actual life transformation. What
happened like, what am I missing? What am I not seeing?
Jessie Cruickshank: So so beforehand, discipleship to you,
was a program that gave a certificate that conveyed
authority. It acted like had nothing to do with heart change.
Unknown: Heart change was the afterthought, like, like
everything was heart but what was what we were doing? Didn't I
could say it didn't feel like it was doing a heart change. It
felt like memorized scripture. It was very performance driven,
very performance. High performance
driven. Yeah. Are you studying your Bible, and are you? Are you
in the Word of God?
Yeah. And if you do all of So, your equation was, if you do all
of those things, then you're then I'm worthy,
then you're worthy, you're qualified, then you're called,
and then you can, now you can serve. So you couldn't serve
until you were discipled, or went through the discipleship
classes.
Bunny Correa: And if you were difficult, like, in my case, you
know, if you were difficult, you'd go to the discipleship
class. And I went, I don't know, like seven times I like seven
certificates, like, Man, I still can. I still can't do anything.
No, oh, okay, so it doesn't work. Then your your system,
yeah, oh, unless I'm, unless I'm a dude, then it would, then it's
different. But I mean, back then, oh well, so it was, it was
different because I remember having to go to the classes, and
then even part of before we got married, it was like, Well, you
do know you guys need to go through this discipleship
program so that you can disciple your children. And so that was
like, oh, okay, because that's what I thought, that's what was
told. So that's what I thought we needed to do. And we did that
for years, years. And one of the conversations that Sheldon and I
had when we were doing youth ministry together, and we were
in our 20s, and we would talk about the church and always be
like we were thinking about, Oh, imagine if, and the way we did
discipleship in youth ministry wasn't through a class. In fact,
we called it salt serving and learning together. We did it
together, that's right. And we just would come alongside of
these kids and and they were like, Oh, it's so different. But
then by the time they got to young adults, it's like, oh, I
guess you guys got to go to discipleship, right? Yes, but
then we had a, but
Jessie Cruickshank: not the detention version, right? The
like, you're gonna actually get authority, not merits,
discipleship.
Unknown: But I think early on, we we knew that we just the only
thing I knew how to do, like any type of leadership was through
relationship, because that's the only way that I knew how like
was taught to me, or I could understand, or I received. I
didn't really receive very well when someone told me what I
could and couldn't do, like, that doesn't land. That didn't
land very well with me or my my personality and so, and I've
been part of this church since I was seven, so it's like, okay
and but I was, like, trying to prove to my parents and to the
leaders and to God that I was worth something because of all
the things that I did in my past. So I thought, Okay, wait.
I have to prove myself and decide if I just do this and I
look like this, then maybe they'll believe in me. You know,
maybe this is what will happen. But what we decided to do is we
had the conversation was like, hey, one day we're going to be
the old ones in the church. We're going to be the ones that
are going to be we can change, like we might have an
opportunity to actually change how we do things, not knowing
that God was going to put us in these, oh, in these shoes. Yeah,
we I didn't know I was going to be the senior pastor. No idea.
No in fact, when, when I became the senior pastor, one of the
first things we did was redo our discipleship classes. We redid
them, renamed it, but still was missing something. Right? It's
like, it's just not. Landing. And from it started with like 20
something people in one of the classes, and then it ended up
with like seven. So there's a high drop off rate. So we
thought, what if we just do what we did while we were in youth
ministry, and just do life with people.
But the church is so massive. Yes, that was the youth ministry
we could do, because we had 100 kids, right? That was doable.
Because maybe we had 1015, leaders, and we all could, you
know, rally around these kids. Have right life together. But
then you take on a church that has 1500 plus. How do we do that
when now our the staff is smaller, and God was like, you
can't, yeah, right, no, the math doesn't work. It does, and we
didn't know. And when we had our, you know, I'm my aha
moment. I'm like, I'm texting Sheldon, going, bro, we are
doing something wrong. And, and I just couldn't get no, no, it's
fine, because the program, because we have so many people,
it has to be this way. Yeah, we cannot do it relationally. It
has to be this way. I'm like, there has to be it. Okay. So,
okay. And you know, when the Lord spoke to me about, don't
worry about the ship, because the ship, you know, yeah, he's
like, don't worry about the ship. It's gonna turn but you're
gonna have to, you're gonna have to hold the
ropes for a little while. She had to go through some brutal
moments to stay and to stay the course, because to try and
convince me that was the most difficult thing. Yeah, she's
Jessie Cruickshank: not the only stubborn one in this
relationship. Yes,
Unknown: right and stubborn in the right direction is a good
thing. I was stubborn in the wrong direction, right? And so
being we all
are until it gets fixed,
yes. And I think along the way, I think what has been the most
difficult thing is those who are stuck in the system,
Jessie Cruickshank: they just like being in the matrix, and
they don't know it, right?
Unknown: They don't know Yeah, and they're and so they don't
know Yeah. They don't know that there's a there's a vision
behind what we're doing. It's not just dismantling things. And
we can cast a vision over and over and over, but when that
neural pathway is just firing it, it there on the not just
unwilling to learn, but almost unable to, unless, right, you
make that choice.
Yeah, we couldn't say it was an age thing, because my mom's in
seven. Oh, I don't believe it. Yeah, it was like it was an
intentional thing. And then we decided, You know what? Okay,
we're not gonna, it's okay. It's okay, if that's what, you know,
that's how you do it. But this is how we're gonna, we're gonna
start here. And and we just started to like, let's implement
it first in our own lives, see if we can do this in those that
are around us, you know? And then we started to see, wow,
okay, wait, if we only did it like Jesus, maybe that's the
solution to, like, do, wow. And but having God's grace, like his
grace was so like, I look back, I'm like, man, you're so good
because we didn't know it all. We didn't know what to do, but
yet his grace was still present, and people didn't leave. They
were being discipled. Holy Spirit does his thing. We just
had to learn the correct system and go with that. And the
correct system was to do it like Jesus did. And we even changed
the model, like, of our our church, like, these are big
decisions that people like our elders, and people are like,
What are you doing? And this is where I'm really thankful that
Sheldon is a captain, because he's like, okay, like, but he's
caring, but yet he still knows this is what the Lord said. So
therefore we're gonna do it this way. But the way he did it was
very like, gracious. But on that side, that side of like, Hey,
we're gonna do it reach those far from God, one relationship
at a time that became our model. Yeah, before we even the buy in,
happened like that. Oh yeah, for the buy in. So he already, the
Lord was already speaking to him, like, we gotta do it
through relationship. We just didn't know how. Yeah, so
Jessie Cruickshank: bunny, for you, learning about some of the
stuff around ordinary discipleship, and, you know,
trying to entreat Sheldon into these ideas and him, you know,
not getting it like, what, well. And then you had to hold space
with that right for for a couple years. What about the idea of
everybody being a disciple maker, doing it Jesus's way?
Like, like, what about that gave you enough hope to endure, to be
patient or long suffering to not. Fight the fights, but trust
God like, like, what was the joy set before you that helped you
wait it out? Well,
Unknown: one of the things that one, I have a deep relationship
with Jesus, and I've always, like, had conversations with
him, and when he told me, You're not going to go anywhere. You're
going to you're going to hang with Sheldon. I also have a deep
relationship with Sheldon, so it became like, Okay, wait a
minute. I can do this, and it's going to be a little difficult,
but you're going to help me. But the joy comes from the fact that
I would have a group of young adults like I would do, like,
this is what you're gonna do. I said, Okay, I can do this, and
we would just cook. And I started to learn from this young
man. He was maybe 18 at the time, and I remember when, wait
a minute, am I learning something from this dude? Like
he doesn't even read his Bible at all. He comes to church, but
he's like, you know, but he's doing life with me. And I
remember just having like, a conversation with him, and I was
like, where did you get that from? He goes, Well, I talked to
God, and he just told me to tell you. I was like, wait what?
Like, you didn't go to seminary, you didn't go. You're not you're
you know. But I was like, oh, okay, wait a minute. Jesus is
talking to me through this 18 year old. And right there, I was
like, okay, then it's possible. Hmm, like, God's like, I'm gonna
show you that's gonna give you enough hope so then you can hang
and have this space and anytime, like, and I remember you saying,
then, just be his friend, right? Like, just be his friend,
because you're
Jessie Cruickshank: you could be his mom, but the Lord is talking
to you through him and showing you what a person who just
listens to the Holy Spirit is capable of,
Unknown: yeah. And I remember having the conversation like,
but what if? What if so and so did could disciple us? No,
that's not possible. They haven't been. They don't have
enough experience. Okay? They don't have a certificate, yes,
but that was the the block. And once we started to and he's
super like once the nerdy side of Sheldon kicked in, and he's
competitive, so part of it was like, Well, maybe you just
can't, I would use words like that. Oh,
so I see the folding of my arms right now. Yes.
Remember just like, Well, maybe you can't learn from someone
else then. And he was like, No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm
like, Oh, what are you saying then? Holy moly. But, and that
young man was Travis, and he's 28 today, and it's been and we
still do life together. He's a lifer, and now it's like we
learn from him,
Oh, my goodness, constantly, constantly,
all of our younger ones, yes, so we all have to do this together.
Yeah, that's how we're going to have a greater reach. And when
that aha moment came, we're like, okay, Jesus. Because how
did Jesus do it with 12? He can, obviously he can do it with 12.
Obviously it works. How do we do this?
Jessie Cruickshank: And how long have you been taking the church
on this journey? On
Unknown: purpose, maybe two to three years. Okay? On purpose.
Before that, it was unintentionally, yeah, God knew
what He was doing. I didn't know Right? Because everything I did
all my life was relational. I was operating, even when we had
discipleship classes, relationally. All I knew was
relationship, right? That was easy.
Relational culture, yeah,
and why? Why work hard at something that I'm not good at,
classroom setting when I do this very well. So even with our
youth, I didn't know I was discipling them. I just hung out
with them. They came to my house. They all slept over. We
had, you know, sometimes eight kids over the house just to hang
out and but that was the culture.
I didn't so that was the difference, right? Like,
discipleship was a thing to be taught, and relationship was was
just being with people. They weren't the same thing. I didn't
know, and
a lot of times I we would for me, I would think, well, I don't
have any I'm your teacher. I'm your mentor. You'll learn from
me. And I never really was like, Well, I'm learning from you,
until I did learn something from them, because I always was. They
were like, Auntie bunny, you know? What about this, this and
this, and we would hang and all the kids would come over. We'd
do all these life we would just do life together. But it wasn't
until I realized I could learn from them as well. I needed to
get to a place of it's not about me. I needed to go through a lot
of deep like sifting. And the Lord would give us words. We was
every year, it would be like a word. And there was maybe 2021,
the word was sift. And I was like, oh no, oh no, no, no, no,
no, no, no, no, no. And, and then yeah, and he would be his.
Hype to the staff was like, You think last year was hard? This
year is going to be even harder. Are you guys excited? You're
excited? Like, get ready, yeah, yeah, so and so that I was like,
COVID was going to come. But then the Lord gave a word, I
think was our 2022 and it was intentional, specific and
purposeful. And we're like, Well, what does that mean? We
don't know. For Sheldon to say, I don't know, but all I know is
something's going to be different. And we started to
just even do it with our staff. Like, let's just be intentional
with our staff. It was us first. Yeah, the staff
also so that they knew what we were doing and why we're doing
what we're doing. Because the unknown is a problem for me. I
want to know, right? But what the Lord also showed was,
because we're opposite, for bunny and I, opposite sides of
the spectrum. And what I mean by that is, let's just say, for
instance, when we talk about how we speak with people, she'll
have one perspective. I'll have a totally different perspective.
She'll say, go to the youth ministry. We have some young
adults there, and there's a problem. I'm like, Oh, they can
handle it, yeah, but it might be dangerous, because a person is
on campus right now. I'm like, Yeah, but these are men. They're
grown men. They can take care of themselves, yeah? But they're
they're young kids. I'm like, they're in their 20s. They're
not young children. They're like, my babies, they're not
your babies, because she's seen them grow up. So so I get the
motherly side. My side is too bad. Yeah, but what if they get
hurt? Then they get hurt. Not every hospital, not everybody
makes it.
Not everyone makes that's how we lie, the polar opposites, which
is necessary for the both of us, that we find that middle ground.
Listen to Holy Spirit. So there's sometimes where I need
to yield. Sometimes she needs to yield so that the polar
opposites work. I am discipling without knowing it relationally.
So by the time it comes to her saying, I can learn from these
guys, I'm already learning from them, but I was learning the
things I wanted to learn. When her aha moment was, I can learn
from them. I'm thinking, I've always been learning from them,
but my aha moment was, yeah, but I'm picking and choosing what I
want to learn now it's I need to learn that if that doesn't feel
good, I would just learn the things that feel good to me,
right,
Jessie Cruickshank: that you were interested in, or healthy
everybody, it
Unknown: was hard to get to a place where we were vulnerable
because we thought that was weakness, right? And how do you
lead when you're weak? And so that my that mentality, when we
made that mind shift, like, wait a minute, it's not about maybe
he, he's making us strong in our weakness. So it's better if
we're
Jessie Cruickshank: weak. It's the ninja move that people don't
know. Yes, right? Oh, wait, God is there's more of God when,
like, I'm okay to be weak, like God's power shows up and I don't
have to do it. So
Unknown: that transformation, and watching what God was doing
in her and Bunny, I could pick up on very easily because of our
relational value and how close we are as brothers and sisters,
we could, I could pick up on, wait, that's real. That's not
she's not performing. She's not it's not a facade. So what is
that? That's what got me to a place of candy to learn this
then. And I love neuroscience. I love the brain. I try my best to
study it as much as possible how the brain functions. I'm
intrigued and curious about it. So once I heard about you, and
it may have been at one of our conferences that you taught, and
you taught about someone who was drowning, and that how to save
them through and you're talking about discipleship, that your
life, you're like a life preserver for them, that you're
going to come alongside of them on their journey, and you're
going to stay afloat together, and you're going to risk your
life for them. Yeah, you know, just says, jump off the cliff.
Yeah. Now jump off the cliff, but you
graduate to jumping off the cliff, you just have the
parachute.
Yeah. So once, once I heard neuroscience. Once I heard neuro
over the cliff with them. You've got the parachute.
So I was locked in once it was neuroscience. So
Jessie Cruickshank: funny. You've been on this journey for
about eight years. Sheldon eventually joins the club, joins
the club, gets on the right page. And I
Unknown: mean, finally we can learn new things. Oh my gosh,
I'm teaming up with someone. Finally we can move on down.
Jessie Cruickshank: And so you guys kind of work that, and the
Lord is teaching you stuff it, I would say probably. A fairly
private way, because of the the vulnerability was, was in its
Baby, baby step phase, right? So then, and I remember when we
talked in 22 and you were talking about, we're going to be
intentional. And for you, what I what I took away from that
season was that you were starting to narrate a little
more about how you thought you were. You were starting to bring
the staff into the your mindset, right? So you're explaining,
you're being intentional. You're explaining what you know and
what you don't know. Here's my intent, but I don't know what
the plan is, things like that, right? So, so now you're
inviting them into the space that you're at, and that's
completely different from for them, right? Then that's a
radical experience for them, because they are used to program
performance, execution, delegated to right like here,
tell me what to do. My job is to show up and do the thing, which
is an amazing thing in a volunteer, until you start to
change the culture, and it's very disorienting. Then when
that's the way it's been for decades,
Unknown: we started with community agreement. That's what
we ended up. I said, before we make any drastic changes, let's
bring definition. And we are not we just were like, Okay, let's
just try to do this with our small teams, which was like a
train wreck, because it was like, Okay, everybody, bring
what you want part of this agreement. What do you want our
team to you know, how are we going to thrive? What words are
you going to bring? Like, we were like, we thought it was
going to be so easy. Because for us, we're like, yeah,
Jessie Cruickshank: yeah, because you're, you're four
years in the journey, shelves, two years it was a journey.
They're beginning the journey, and they're like, what, like,
Unknown: where are we going? What wilderness? Well, it's a
journey. It's, it's about the great adventure, no, but where
are we gonna go? We do Sunday service, yeah, yeah. So it was a
lot of back and forth, you know, people not getting it, and we're
like, he was a little bit more like, no, it's fine. Just that,
that word's fine. I'm like, No, but they need to have
definition. So it was like, it was crazy. Let's just say, but
what is crazy? But what we realized a good way, was we
thought everyone understood what we were saying until we did that
exercise, and then what God highlighted was we have a whole
younger generation that their definition of anything, maybe
family, you know, or transparency, like everybody
wants to be, oh, we want trust and transparency. And we're
like, Okay, well, what does that mean to you? Oh, that you would
just be honest with also that on, like, literally, no one
could define, no one could land. And when we finally did, it was
like, Can I even do that? So bringing it back, we had to
scale back and go, Okay, wait Lord, help us be able to do
this? And how are we gonna? And we just it has to just be in us
at this point, instead of making it again a mission statement or
this or that, like
anything else is still ongoing, right? But the common phrase
that I get, and I understand it, it happened this morning, is
guys don't worry about that, that we don't need to worry
about that, and they're like, You taught us this. Yeah, maybe
don't worry about that. You taught us about excellence. You
taught us about things need to be done a certain way. You
taught us about timing. So what are we supposed to do? You
trained us for this like we well, then ungrained yourself.
Then did I say that? Wait? Did I wait? Did I say that? Oh, I'm
telling
you something different.
Yes. And that's hard, because it's been ingrained in them for
some of them, 10 solid years, and
they're watching. And the thing is, it was watching Sheldon,
like, match his words, right? Once his actions started to
match his words, there were some people were like, it's just
easier to operate in law. Just do, tell me what to do, and I'll
do it. But now it's like, Wait, we're gonna, we're gonna operate
in love. What does that look like? Well, there's still law
and love. Okay, wait, what does that mean? Okay, we're gonna
have to just show you. So whenever he would be you still
are in our staff means transparent or vulnerable. And
he's like, Hey, sorry. You know that's an old neural pathway.
I'm really trying to relearn this, because I do want it to be
excellent, but I also want you, what is your excellent? And
let's What is it about the people, not the program, right?
And so once we started to to live that way, they were able to
trust, right? And there's still a little residue of like, the
fear, because that of the PTSD, what we would say, like,
because, because of my reaction, but then how you respond to it.
Now we quit. We are quick to like, hey, hey, let's, let's
talk this out. Let's have this space. And a lot of times I'm
just, I'm like, I'm in that space, and I'll ask certain
questions. How did that make you feel? Okay? So I. Can we
acknowledge that that feeling is accurate, but is it true? And
they be like, it's not true. Okay, so it's not true, but the
feeling was accurate. And then there's confession, and then
there's what we call like pono, and we bring it back, and okay,
then we can move from there. The more times we do that, there's
more trust now, right? And now they they can start to relearn
and unlearn and experience new things and experience new
revelations and and, yeah, we're still in it, but I don't think
we'll ever be out of it. I think this is just an ongoing thing,
and it's our life, because we're humans and where people and
things are, but you're
Jessie Cruickshank: starting to turn a corner, right?
Definitely. Now, now the staff have been on the journey for a
couple years, okay, maybe one and a half. Yeah, maybe Okay,
one and a half, 18 months intentionally, right? So, so
you've been being a disciple and and then you've been sort of on
the DL, discipling them, but, but helping them experience in
it. Because it was so disorienting to when you were
naming everything, so So experiencing more, kind of
starting to name. And now you've got a couple cohorts into, you
know, people going through the the the book, going through the
material and learn just, you know, just learning the new
thing. While you're you're also kind of ninja, recreating the
culture. And you know, you're asking them to start making
disciples. So it, it's, it's going through its next, its next
season. What, what are you seeing? We're six and eight
years into this adventure. What are you starting to see? I
already
Unknown: see fruit because they see what we're seeing. Yeah,
they see what they read in your book. They see it and they
notice it in one of them said, I didn't know I was I had the
opportunity to decide to disciple my sister. Yeah, I'm
talking to her the other day, and I'm talking to her, she's
talking back to me, and as I'm talking to her, I'm thinking,
and that was her aha moment. Oh my goodness, this is the person
I'm supposed to disciple, yep. So that's what she does now. And
her sister doesn't come to church, but she's discipling
her. She gets to love her where she's at, and now, as a sister,
she's not frustrated at her sister, because that's her
journey. That's her sister's journey, and that came out of
going through our cohort with huology, just the understanding
of no as a disciple, you follow Jesus. You choose to follow
Jesus, you choose to live changed, but now you want to
make a disciple maker. Now you come alongside of them, and you
help them do what you do. You help them live changed lives and
following Jesus and be changed by Jesus. That's that's all
you're doing. So you, what you've been able to bring to us
is simplicity, and we always say it, it's simple, but not easy,
right?
Yeah, it's not easy. That's why God keeps it simple,
simple. And so I do see fruit. I see the excitement in the
people, even those in our cohort. And we keep it to 10
people because it we're able to relate. We don't need the
masses. So we're trying to do it in small pockets, so that they
get it. We want to go deep. We don't need broad. We want to we
like from the very beginning. Want to make sure we do this
thing. Well, we don't need 1000 people. We just need 10. If we
can love on these 10, we can help equip these 10, then we're
good with that next cohort. Then,
because it becomes exponential, right? If they, if it's deeply
caught, then even if those people don't stay in leadership,
or don't stay at the church, yep, wherever they go, that's
the point. They're they're going to do the same thing. They will
be changed forever. To me, hearing your guys's story, it's
the Jesus story, right? You know, you live, you live the
fruit and and people want that fruit, right? Like you Sheldon,
you're like, Bunny is different. Why is she different? Yes, I
want to know why she's different, because I like who
she is. Now, you know. And so you keep asking questions, and
you keep trying to find out, and then that just keeps spreading.
Yeah, spreading, yeah.
One of the fruit that I have been able to witness is our
younger cohort attendees, and knowing that they chose this one
girl, she's like, I think I'm going to disciple I'm going to
tell my grandma that I'm going to disciple her and wow, to
think that we break that that mindset of only older can teach
younger, and younger only can receive rather than teach. That,
to me, is a huge hurdle, especially in our culture,
because she she. Came in, she's like, I'm not really that great.
I was, I didn't have good grades in school, and I have a hard
time reading. And you sure I'm I'm supposed to be in here. And
I'm like, yes, yes, the Lord specifically said you. And she's
okay. I don't know who I can disciple. I mean, maybe my
younger brother, my sister anyway, for her to come back and
say, I, because one of the exercises was to ask the Lord,
and she's like, okay, let's just, let's just do it. Let's
try. Just try it. And for her to say, my I'm going to ask my
grandma, and her grandma is someone who comes to church and
will probably say, okay, yeah, let's I want to be a disciple
maker, and to me, it's like that makes all the hard work worth
it, and it gives me the hope that even when I'm not here
anymore, that it continues exactly what Jesus did. I'm
going to go and you guys are going to do great things,
because my spirit is going to empower you. And I rely on that.
And I just am like, Okay, Lord, what do you want us to do? And
he's like, do what I ask. Just go love my people, my sheep, and
tell them about me and empower them, and I'm going to send the
Spirit and and, and that makes me hopeful. And it's it made
holding the rope for all those years worth it. I knew it was
worth it because, well, that's why
Jessie Cruickshank: I had to go through the discipleship class
seven times. You had the strong enough seven certificates,
exactly. It's like seven years worth of certificates. Look at
this. Guys are so drained. You
Unknown: know what I love about that? Because I because I was
asking the Lord. I said, that can't be in vain the Lord. And
he said, No, people still learned. They still were able to
memorize scripture, they still got the word, they were still
able to do but they didn't make disciples. What we're trying to
do is make disciple makers. So they went through the class and
they be, some of them became teachers, but they're just
teaching them to do the same thing. It's not perpetual,
because where are they now, right? If we had 200 people
through those classes, we should have 200 discipleship Oh, 200
disciple makers. But we didn't. It ended, and that, that was it,
and then they served. But this is perpetual. We're talking
about. This is you're, you're making disciple makers. It is a
lifestyle. This is an ongoing, continuous life. There is no
ending, right? So I'm still being discipled. There's I'm
still just today. Today, I caught myself and I said, I
said, Hey, that's a good idea. That's probably what I didn't
think about. I didn't see from your perspective. Tell me about
that, then they would tell me, this is what I see. I said,
Awesome. Why don't you guys talk about what you just learned
today, let me know how I can help, and then we can move on
from there to me. That was that had nothing to do with the thing
we were fixing. What it had to do is, what it had to do with is
I felt anger, I felt frustration, but then I'm being
discipled by this person right now that my old neural pathway,
I feel it, but my new neural pathway is now firing, so now I
have to switch to this new neural pathway, and now I have
to unlearn what I've always known to learn this new thing.
How can I learn from what he just said? So I had to stop
myself switch that neural pathway and intentionally listen
to what he was saying. So it is ongoing. It is continuous. I
have an unbelievable team around me, right? Teams with others
that they're going to call me on it, they're going to get in my
face. Great team, yeah, and we give them permission speak to us
too, because we're all
friends, we have to be friends. Who we're we're this is our
community. Yeah, right, so that's who we're going on this
journey with. This is who we're with. Everyone has something to
bring, and we do it together, because it's not just one person
telling everyone what to do. It's how do we partner with what
God is doing in you? And how do we do this? Because It's he who
sits on the throne, not us.
Jessie Cruickshank: So you can experience, you're starting
experiencing how it's actually a light burden and an easy yoke is
a game changer, right? Because it seems super theoretical.
Slash, don't really believe it. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe I
don't have enough faith, and that's why it feels heavy and
hard. But when you when the culture starts to shift, and you
feel the burden lift, because everybody is doing it, and
really the Holy Spirit is in charge, like, oh, you can't go
back. I when I felt that change, like, I can't go back. I can't
go back to anything that's not shared leadership. I can't go
back to something that feels like a burden, because I know
that's not the Lord, right? I mean, we are talking six, eight
years, right? And I tell people, it takes a long time and they
want to program because that can produce results. Yeah. Within 12
weeks. And it's not like that, unfortunately, but let's say
that there is, there's a person out there, and maybe they're a
ministry leader, maybe they're just a person in their church,
and they're contending for a community that makes disciples,
an actual thing where we do it all together. How would you
encourage them? Let's, let's, maybe, yeah, close with that.
And like, what advice would you give them or encourage them?
Because even though you have positional authority, doesn't
mean actually anybody listens to you or they do what you say,
right? So just because you know, you could be the top dog or the
senior pastor and say, This is what we're doing now, and no one
goes with you, right? So it so where you are in the
organization kind of actually doesn't matter all that much.
Yeah, so to anybody, what? What would you say? What advice would
you have, or encouragement?
Unknown: Stay very close to Jesus. Just hold space with Holy
Spirit. Just sit and let him be your encourager, because there's
going to be moments where you're going to think, this is nuts,
like, Am I able to do this? The answer is no, you're not, not
without him, and so holding that space with him, I'm going to
tell you right now, when you whether it happens in a year,
whether it happens in eight years, it will be worth it. It
will be so, so worth it. And the community that you'll see
thrive, the reach like me, someone may never see you in
that private space with Holy Spirit contending they don't
have to, because that's not why we do it. We do it because the
Lord said so, and that is where the honor comes. And you're
honoring the Lord, and you may not know why or how long, but
when you're obedient, that's what the the blessings come, and
I'm now witnessing things I never thought I all I wanted was
for Sheldon to be nicer to me. That's all I want, unless you
are right. I was like, bro, what? I was like, Lord, what are
you doing? Why? Why? And he's like, you don't need to know
why, how you're gonna hold this rope until I tell you let it go.
And when you let it go, the cells are gonna open up, and my
wind's gonna blow and you're gonna see that. Don't worry
about who's in leadership I was. Don't worry who's in charge.
Don't worry about like I was in this room, this space in 2010
where the Lord told me that, and I was so frustrated. I'm like, I
couldn't breathe, and I didn't know why I couldn't breathe in
this I was like, What is wrong with this church? Like I can't
breathe, like it's so heavy, and the Lord's like, this is what I
need you to do, and I need you to pull down the cells are going
to come down, and there's the ship's not going to move, and
you're going to hold the rope until I tell you. And I just
contended for Sheldon, and I prayed, and I just sat and I
said, Hey, Lord, what do you want me to do? Need you to pray,
and you need to and you're going to honor me in that, not anyone
else, and no one's going to see you. Are you okay with that?
Like no one's going to see you doing this? Are you okay with
that? Yes,
and I struggle long as he's nicer to me. No, no, I wasn't.
That was a joke, but it was like, because we still did
ministry, and I just remember Kay Lord, and it would
constantly come back up and and I would have to do retreat to go
spend time with Holy Spirit. Like, are you sure? Is this
really what I'm supposed to do? Because, and then I would get
job offers. You know, when I would leave home, it would be
like, I could be like, breathe. Oh, I can do who be, who I was
supposed to be. And then the Lord's like, no, I need you to
stay right there. I was like, Okay. And then whatever, the
Lord's like, I'm going to work on you. Don't just look at
everybody else. It's going to be you that I'm going to try to
unpack all of these things. And I remember just holding on. And
that was the vision. Gave me. Just hold on to the rope, and
you're gonna sit there now. You're gonna see other people do
things, and you can't do anything because you're holding
the rope, and you're gonna see Sheldon at the helm, and you're
just gonna hold the rope until I tell you to let it go. And it
was right before, like, think it's 2019 it's about 2019 it's
coming to the end of 2019 when the Lord said, Okay, let go. And
I just let go. And it was like, it the winds came, and just our
whole church just, and what was interesting about it, because
right before pandemic too, and it was like, and now we're
starting to see a different like, he's giving us different
direction. And I can look back and go, oh, oh, that's what you
are doing. And now I can encourage others. Hey, maybe the
Lord's telling you to hold rope. Just hold that rope. Sit and
when you let go, you watch what he does, and you get to be a
part of what God's doing. So be encouraged with. That because it
is life changing, and people come to know Jesus, and you got
to be a part of that.
Jessie Cruickshank: That's so good. That's so good. She'll
anything you'd add to that. Yeah, I mean, it was perfect.
But to
Unknown: add anything it was, it was my aha moment. Was watching
Doctor Strange. So Doctor Strange came out his there's a
line in the movie where Doctor Strange says something, it's
supposed to be funny. The sorcerer, librarian, I forget
his name anyway. He doesn't Wong, yeah, he doesn't laugh.
And Dr, strange says, usually people laugh at that. And he
says, did they work for you so? And he said that, I'm like, Oh,
my goodness, are all these people that are around me like
that because I'm the senior pastor and they must behave this
way? Are they? Are they my friends? Or aren't they my
friends? Because long ago, when I was in when I was a junior
high Pastor, I was maybe 21
around there. While I was serving, one of the teenagers
was acting up. Left the youth room. I went after. I said, Hey,
why aren't you listening? So we got into this squabble. And then
she left with, you're not my dad. And then she walked away. I
said, Hey, I may not be your dad, but I'm your friend, okay?
And now we're still good friends today. She's like, 40 something
years old. Anyway, the youth pastor told me, said, and he
heard what I said. He said, I'm going to teach you something
right now that will help you. You cannot be friends with
people in ministry. Then the moment he said that, instantly I
felt the Lord hold that like guarded my heart. Oh, thank God.
And said, don't listen to that. Don't listen because all I knew
was to be friends with people in ministry. Another person told me
you cannot hire your friends because there's a conflict of
interest. So you cannot be friends with people on staff.
Lonely at the top. And then that was the other one, just letting
you know, when you get into this it's going to be lonely at the
top those three moments. The first one was, don't listen to
that. Guard your heart. The second one was, why can't I
Jesus had friends with him? The third one, when they said it's
lonely at the top was then I don't want to be at the top. Why
would I want to get to the top and be lonely? Who wants that?
Right? So I'd rather be at the bottom with my friends than on
the
top right 100% yes. So if
God calls me his friend. Why can't I call my coworkers my
friends? Why can't I call people to ministry? My friends? Yeah,
ministry is hard. Do it with your friends. Do it with your
friends. That's why we can continue to me the highest form
and the highest honor of any relationship is friendship.
Yeah, yep. God calls us friends. How much higher can we get in a
totem pole of or a hierarchy of relational value, it has to be
friendship. And
the other thing is, like, it's lonely at the top. I mean, God
doesn't even do it alone, right, right? You know, it's not
biblical to be alone, like he can't even do it. Like, yeah,
there's the Trinity, yeah, right. And so, yeah, bad advice,
and I'm glad you didn't take it for those who
are listening and you're wondering, like you, you stay
strong in relational value if it takes eight years, fight for it,
fight for your relationships, fight for the value that you
have. And when it goes bad, don't just forget about it and
say, Okay, well, too bad. Like, learn something from it. And
yes, as far as it depends on you be at peace with all people, but
that's the farthest you can actually go. You can't force
people to be your friends. You can't force people to when
there's betrayal, to now come together. And you must do this.
You do the very best that you can when it comes to relational
value. Other people are going to make their decisions too. You
can't own everything that doesn't belong to you, or you
can't own things that doesn't belong to you. You can own what
belongs to you, but if other people make their decisions, you
can disciple and love from afar too, and just continue on with
what bunny said. So you got to stay close to Jesus. That's the
only way possible. The more we run to Jesus, if you look at a
triangle, right, if you're on opposite ends, the more you run
to Jesus, the closer you get to each other. So run to Jesus.
Jessie Cruickshank: You guys are amazing. You guys are amazing.
We love you so much. I love you guys so well. Thank you for
being on the ordinary discipleship podcast today. I
hope, if you're out there and you're listening, I hope you
were encouraged. I hope you were challenged. I hope you were
inspired, if anything, be inspired to come to Hilo,
Hawaii, and come visit New Hope Hilo and see what it looks like
to turn a culture of of a large. Your church, right? Not not a
not a starting church, not a smaller church. They have
different cultures, different challenges, but you can always
come out here and visit, yes, my dear friends and so we love you.
If you are interested in more about hoology, you can always
check out whoology.co. That's W, H, O, O, o, l, o, G, y.co, we've
got some resources. We've got an online class that you can have
for small groups. So it's a it's a Bible study and and Bunny you
you know, you can get a reference if you want, and ask
them you know how it works and how it you know what they like
about it. So, but we just want to thank you for joining us
today and yeah, be blessed. Go be out there with the Lord
Aloha.
Unknown: Aloha, a.