1 00:00:02,576 --> 00:00:05,338 Okay, so Jonathan, thanks so much for being here today. 2 00:00:05,338 --> 00:00:14,936 Really excited to chat with you and just to kick us off, I'd love if you could give us some insight, high level to, into where you're at now in your career and your stage with 3 00:00:14,936 --> 00:00:15,626 Mnemonic Inc. 4 00:00:15,626 --> 00:00:18,178 and your journey up until this point. 5 00:00:18,958 --> 00:00:22,118 So I started the business in 2008. 6 00:00:22,118 --> 00:00:27,758 So it's been, guess, about 16, 17 years that I've been working at Mnemonic. 7 00:00:27,998 --> 00:00:35,898 It's grown from basically, say, a one-person operation or a two-person operation to about 50 staff today. 8 00:00:35,898 --> 00:00:39,478 So zero to 50 staff in about 17 years. 9 00:00:39,478 --> 00:00:45,298 And I'd say the business, even though we're 16, 17 years old, we still have very much a startup mentality. 10 00:00:45,298 --> 00:00:47,662 We're very much in a growth phase. 11 00:00:47,662 --> 00:00:49,682 and we've done five acquisitions. 12 00:00:49,682 --> 00:00:50,862 We continue to grow. 13 00:00:50,862 --> 00:00:58,622 Things are going well, and I'm just as excited or maybe even more excited today about the company than I was say five or 10 years ago. 14 00:00:58,622 --> 00:01:05,862 So we seem to have accelerated our velocity and the company continues to grow and we continue to seek expansion opportunities. 15 00:01:06,682 --> 00:01:09,002 So yeah, the company's doing great. 16 00:01:09,382 --> 00:01:13,182 If you'd like I can revert back to how the company started. 17 00:01:14,982 --> 00:01:17,152 So Mnemonic started in 18 00:01:17,152 --> 00:01:21,806 around 2006 as a product within a consulting group. 19 00:01:21,806 --> 00:01:33,515 So I had worked as an engineer and I worked in the steel industry, particularly in China, where I saw tremendous environmental damage as well as worker occupational health and 20 00:01:33,515 --> 00:01:37,518 safety issues at metallurgical sites in China. 21 00:01:37,799 --> 00:01:42,592 So after I was my experience in China, I decided to come back to Canada, back to Montreal where I'm from. 22 00:01:43,008 --> 00:01:45,950 and devote myself more to sustainability and environmental issues. 23 00:01:45,950 --> 00:01:55,547 And I joined a small consulting firm that around 2006 had started building a database of environmental regulations to help businesses stay in compliance with environmental 24 00:01:55,547 --> 00:01:56,748 regulations. 25 00:01:56,748 --> 00:02:06,895 The truth back then, and frankly the truth today, is that most companies don't have a robust process to ensure they're respecting current environmental or worker health and 26 00:02:06,895 --> 00:02:08,176 safety regulations. 27 00:02:08,176 --> 00:02:11,718 And the consequences is lots of issues, let's just say. 28 00:02:11,854 --> 00:02:16,594 So in 2006, this company started building a small product for a couple of customers. 29 00:02:16,594 --> 00:02:19,814 But after a couple of years, they realized it wasn't a good fit within the consulting business. 30 00:02:19,814 --> 00:02:21,234 They were losing money. 31 00:02:21,274 --> 00:02:30,934 And software, in contrast to consulting, you have to invest a lot of money and time and resources to bring a software product to the point where it is commercially successful. 32 00:02:30,954 --> 00:02:37,214 Versus a consulting business where you're paid by the hour and basically your risk, if you will, is quite low. 33 00:02:37,214 --> 00:02:40,134 So it wasn't working within the context of a consulting business. 34 00:02:40,242 --> 00:02:46,166 And I didn't feel I was a good fit for the consulting business either in terms of my personality or my soft skills. 35 00:02:46,187 --> 00:02:48,248 And so I just said, I'm going to leave. 36 00:02:48,248 --> 00:02:54,273 But if you're interested in getting into this product that you've started building but you're losing money on, I could purchase it from you. 37 00:02:54,273 --> 00:02:57,155 Now, of course, I was 26 years old at the time. 38 00:02:57,155 --> 00:02:58,516 So I didn't have any money. 39 00:02:58,516 --> 00:03:00,577 I had very little money, let's say. 40 00:03:00,858 --> 00:03:02,579 And I said, I can pay you. 41 00:03:02,579 --> 00:03:04,250 But I can pay you at a future earnings. 42 00:03:04,250 --> 00:03:06,121 So basically, give me the product. 43 00:03:06,658 --> 00:03:15,458 and I'm going to try and turn it around, change the business model, change the product, turn it into a viable business and I'll pay you back in three years, I said about $50,000. 44 00:03:15,502 --> 00:03:18,803 It took us about probably seven or eight years to pay them back. 45 00:03:18,803 --> 00:03:24,566 I don't remember exactly, but we did pay them back eventually and they were very kind of patient with that. 46 00:03:24,566 --> 00:03:30,708 But we took the business, we put it into a separate legal entity, which is now Mnemonic Inc and that's existed since 2008. 47 00:03:30,708 --> 00:03:32,909 Basically rebuilt everything. 48 00:03:32,909 --> 00:03:35,670 We changed the business model, we changed the product. 49 00:03:35,982 --> 00:03:38,953 And we've of course evolved the business a lot since then. 50 00:03:38,953 --> 00:03:47,925 So we started really with environmental compliance, but over the years we've expanded the content geographically, so not just Canada, but also US and other countries, and also 51 00:03:47,925 --> 00:03:48,946 expanded the topic. 52 00:03:48,946 --> 00:03:55,267 So it's not just environmental compliance, but it's compliance to safety regulations, compliance to insurance regulations. 53 00:03:55,267 --> 00:04:05,134 Basically any regulation that's out there that a business needs to comply with, we can help them manage that from the point of determining what applies to them. 54 00:04:05,134 --> 00:04:11,957 to building a workflow and then having an update process because these regulations are always changing and there's new ones coming out. 55 00:04:11,977 --> 00:04:24,193 So we've expanded the business, we've done five acquisitions of similar companies to us and today we're about 50 staff spread out in Canada, US, China and a few other places in 56 00:04:24,193 --> 00:04:25,674 the world and we continue to expand. 57 00:04:25,674 --> 00:04:27,084 So it's been a great journey. 58 00:04:27,084 --> 00:04:31,148 It feels like it was yesterday that I was, you know, writing up a business plan and... 59 00:04:31,148 --> 00:04:37,857 and getting things started, but it's gone really fast and of course ups and downs, but generally speaking, a very positive experience. 60 00:04:37,977 --> 00:04:40,499 Wow, that is quite the journey. 61 00:04:40,499 --> 00:04:41,079 Thank you. 62 00:04:41,079 --> 00:04:42,070 Thanks for sharing that. 63 00:04:42,070 --> 00:04:47,204 mean, not many people can say, yeah, I decided to take this, turn it around and... 64 00:04:47,756 --> 00:04:50,057 and be so innovative with the buyout strategy. 65 00:04:50,057 --> 00:05:00,441 I think that's something that I really admire, that it takes a lot of conviction, great vision, and obviously a lot of confidence in what you're building. 66 00:05:00,441 --> 00:05:02,832 And so I think that's fantastic. 67 00:05:02,832 --> 00:05:04,372 And obviously your success has paid off. 68 00:05:04,372 --> 00:05:07,924 So congratulations and your vision way back then. 69 00:05:08,878 --> 00:05:20,760 Now with that, younger you had to make some tough decisions and of course had some learnings as you grew and as the business evolved over the past 17, 18 years, which 70 00:05:21,482 --> 00:05:30,491 probably came in ebbs and flows and I would imagine still continues to, but are there any of those tough learnings or lessons that really stand out to you from the early days? 71 00:05:31,694 --> 00:05:41,958 I'd say if I were to go back and redo it or to give my younger self advice, I should have done more research and I should have studied more. 72 00:05:41,958 --> 00:05:53,503 Not necessarily in a formal setting of like a university or anything like that, but just take in more time to analyze the market, to analyze what the customers really needed and 73 00:05:53,503 --> 00:06:01,196 other elements of operating a business, whether it's the financial side, whether there's the human side, but just take more time to really understand 74 00:06:01,218 --> 00:06:06,140 the opportunity, what I'm getting myself into, and sort of best practices out there. 75 00:06:06,140 --> 00:06:14,218 Trying to learn from other people who've built businesses, grown businesses, worked in businesses, rather than trying to figure it out as you go. 76 00:06:14,218 --> 00:06:22,887 I think I probably could have shaved a few years off of the art development if I hadn't made so many mistakes myself, and instead just taken some time to do a bit more research 77 00:06:22,887 --> 00:06:24,587 in those first few years. 78 00:06:24,668 --> 00:06:30,808 So, you know, that would be the main advice I'd give to myself if I could go back in time. 79 00:06:30,808 --> 00:06:34,076 but I can't, so here we are. 80 00:06:34,076 --> 00:06:37,776 Yeah, mean, it said every entrepreneur ever, right? 81 00:06:37,776 --> 00:06:45,116 We if we could go back in and kind of insulate ourselves from some of those mistakes, but they are the some of the greatest lessons learned. 82 00:06:45,276 --> 00:06:55,236 And now you're at a point where you I would imagine have you've built all of those those skills and all of those those lessons, you kind of lay the foundation for yourself. 83 00:06:55,236 --> 00:06:57,424 So in a sense, you're 84 00:06:57,424 --> 00:07:04,787 You're a generalist, understand the complexities of your business rather than just coming in and having other people do things from the get-go, right? 85 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:06,250 Yeah, for sure. 86 00:07:06,250 --> 00:07:09,062 And it's not like we've figured everything out. 87 00:07:09,062 --> 00:07:10,913 I mean, we still have problems every day. 88 00:07:10,913 --> 00:07:12,914 I think any company does. 89 00:07:13,294 --> 00:07:14,835 And of course, we're trying to improve. 90 00:07:14,835 --> 00:07:15,816 And we are. 91 00:07:15,816 --> 00:07:18,417 But it's a journey. 92 00:07:18,417 --> 00:07:23,300 It's constant learning, and the market's changing, the people change, the customers change. 93 00:07:23,300 --> 00:07:28,512 So it's anything but stagnant, let's put it that way. 94 00:07:28,900 --> 00:07:30,670 Yes, yes, definitely. 95 00:07:30,670 --> 00:07:31,571 And you know what? 96 00:07:31,571 --> 00:07:40,063 I think that your product really helps people stay abreast of the things that are constantly changing, especially when it comes to compliance. 97 00:07:40,063 --> 00:07:51,066 mean, just to know that when you said that there's the mechanism to update, I think that's such a key component because things are changing, you know, like the direction of the 98 00:07:51,066 --> 00:07:51,506 wind. 99 00:07:51,506 --> 00:07:57,788 So to have that in your back pocket and know that you're supported in that, I think that's a huge asset to any business. 100 00:07:58,402 --> 00:08:07,866 Yeah, I think businesses more than ever need to stay on top of regulatory changes, changes in engineering standards, and all these things that affect the products and services that 101 00:08:07,866 --> 00:08:09,306 companies deliver. 102 00:08:09,467 --> 00:08:11,127 The scrutiny is higher than ever. 103 00:08:11,127 --> 00:08:21,101 If you have an incident at your facility or if your products have a product recall, it's extremely expensive just in terms of time and money, but also in terms of your brand 104 00:08:21,101 --> 00:08:22,352 reputation. 105 00:08:22,692 --> 00:08:28,084 And so in a sort of internet world where word of mouth spreads super quickly. 106 00:08:28,084 --> 00:08:33,963 it's critical to get these systems in place to prevent as many problems as possible. 107 00:08:33,963 --> 00:08:35,998 Yeah, for sure. 108 00:08:36,348 --> 00:08:36,858 Absolutely. 109 00:08:36,858 --> 00:08:43,111 And you said something really interesting and something that, you know, touched on on one of my favorite topics, which is soft skills. 110 00:08:43,111 --> 00:08:51,795 And you said that on the consulting side of things, that it didn't really fit with your strengths or the soft skills that you had. 111 00:08:51,795 --> 00:08:54,996 And therefore you chose to go a different direction. 112 00:08:55,197 --> 00:08:56,397 One, congratulations. 113 00:08:56,397 --> 00:09:03,261 Know thyself is one of the biggest assets and any entrepreneur, senior leader can have that degree of self-awareness. 114 00:09:03,261 --> 00:09:06,802 But then as you transition to becoming an entrepreneur, 115 00:09:06,942 --> 00:09:17,929 and you know over the last 17, 18 years, how do you think you've built out your team to be able to support some of those, perhaps those areas that whether it's you don't necessarily 116 00:09:17,929 --> 00:09:27,245 want to dive into because your zone of genius is elsewhere or have you completely you know revamped that and said I really want to learn my soft skills for this reason or particular 117 00:09:27,245 --> 00:09:28,035 skills. 118 00:09:28,035 --> 00:09:35,700 Basically how did you develop your team in the early years to support you with the things that 119 00:09:36,014 --> 00:09:39,778 you maybe weren't the best at so you could stick to doing the things you were great at. 120 00:09:40,226 --> 00:09:43,727 Yeah, I'm a believer, I guess, in a couple things. 121 00:09:43,727 --> 00:09:52,229 One is that your type of personality, you can be successful regardless of your type of personality. 122 00:09:52,229 --> 00:09:55,000 So whether you're introvert, extrovert, whether you're more technical. 123 00:09:55,000 --> 00:10:05,943 I've read enough books about enough entrepreneurs, enough business people to know that there's a huge variety of very successful people running, who've created, ran businesses, 124 00:10:05,943 --> 00:10:06,794 et cetera. 125 00:10:06,794 --> 00:10:08,014 the personality, 126 00:10:08,014 --> 00:10:11,874 correlation to success I think is not true. 127 00:10:11,874 --> 00:10:17,814 Sometimes we think the entrepreneur has to be well spoken and do this and that and in many cases that's not the case. 128 00:10:17,814 --> 00:10:28,694 So I think personality is not critical but it is important to surround yourself with complimentary people who maybe have other assets and skills that you don't. 129 00:10:28,694 --> 00:10:30,774 And so we've really tried to do that at Mnemonic. 130 00:10:30,774 --> 00:10:33,838 We intentionally have a lot of people who are 131 00:10:33,838 --> 00:10:39,038 very technical, very introverted, very good at what they do, very disciplined, very detail oriented. 132 00:10:39,498 --> 00:10:41,278 You know, I have my skills elsewhere. 133 00:10:41,278 --> 00:10:53,398 And so we've tried to build a team that is very diverse and given people flexibility in everything from their work-life balance in terms of more vacation or ability to work from 134 00:10:53,398 --> 00:10:55,018 home or things like that. 135 00:10:55,018 --> 00:11:03,738 So things to accommodate these different types of people so that they can contribute in their respective ways and have a complementary 136 00:11:04,334 --> 00:11:06,994 network of skills and people. 137 00:11:06,994 --> 00:11:14,434 I don't think I can change that much as an individual and I don't think other people can change that much and so it's not realistic. 138 00:11:14,434 --> 00:11:17,974 It's certainly not realistic for me to ask other people to change fundamentally who they are. 139 00:11:17,974 --> 00:11:20,714 Obviously they can improve their skills and things like that. 140 00:11:20,954 --> 00:11:32,794 So over the years I've really tried to move away from say performance reviews and coaching, which in some we used to do a lot of that, and instead really focus on finding 141 00:11:32,794 --> 00:11:33,974 the right person 142 00:11:33,974 --> 00:11:43,387 for a specific job and within that job, identifying anything that they don't enjoy doing and trying to remove that from their job as much as possible. 143 00:11:43,387 --> 00:11:54,968 I we all have to do things that are not our favorite things to do, but try and sort of trim or tailor the job and rule so that it's as ideally fit for that person as possible 144 00:11:54,968 --> 00:11:56,189 out of the box. 145 00:11:56,189 --> 00:12:00,412 And you're not instead trying to kind of put a round peg in a square hole sort of story. 146 00:12:00,412 --> 00:12:03,746 So I'd say that's a shift that we've made over the last six, seven years. 147 00:12:03,746 --> 00:12:08,612 where we used to have these four five page performance reports and this is how you can improve and blah, blah. 148 00:12:08,612 --> 00:12:09,943 They never worked for us. 149 00:12:09,943 --> 00:12:16,040 People just kind of kept on doing their thing and sometimes that led to them resigning or other issues. 150 00:12:16,101 --> 00:12:17,943 And so instead we said, let's just change your job. 151 00:12:17,943 --> 00:12:24,810 Let's change your job and give you something you really like doing that you're going to be good at and get rid of all that other crud basically. 152 00:12:24,826 --> 00:12:26,697 Yes, excellent, excellent. 153 00:12:26,697 --> 00:12:27,797 No, I agree with you. 154 00:12:27,797 --> 00:12:37,912 And I think it's about, as you said, so eloquently finding complementary skills so that you have a network of skills and a network of individuals who are great at what they do. 155 00:12:37,912 --> 00:12:40,303 So that makes total sense. 156 00:12:40,303 --> 00:12:51,038 And, you know, then being in different geographies, I'm sure adds another element and layer to to your hiring process, to finding those those good fit candidates, the ones who 157 00:12:51,038 --> 00:12:52,009 are great at their jobs. 158 00:12:52,009 --> 00:12:55,250 So if you were to think obviously technical skill, 159 00:12:55,262 --> 00:13:07,465 are one component, but when it comes to the overall culture and the goals of mnemonic, are there any specific things that signal to you that this person would be a good fit or they, 160 00:13:07,465 --> 00:13:13,132 you know, we have the role for this person specifically when you're hiring around the world? 161 00:13:13,678 --> 00:13:25,898 I think in the hiring process, we tried a variety of things, but the one thing that really kind of came back as being an indicator of a future good team member was when the person 162 00:13:25,898 --> 00:13:31,118 came to the interviews prepared, when they had done research and they had questions. 163 00:13:31,118 --> 00:13:36,058 I personally like to start off my interviews with the candidates as, know, what are your questions? 164 00:13:36,058 --> 00:13:38,598 I'm not even going to ask you about you or your background. 165 00:13:38,598 --> 00:13:41,656 I just want you to demonstrate to me that you've 166 00:13:41,656 --> 00:13:47,129 thought about this role, you've thought about the company, the industry, and you certainly don't expect a candidate to know everything. 167 00:13:47,129 --> 00:13:49,211 I mean, they've only seen the public information. 168 00:13:49,211 --> 00:13:55,875 But to come with the questions, to come prepared, that usually is an indicator that if they come prepared for the job interview, they're likely the type of person who's also 169 00:13:55,875 --> 00:14:00,858 going to prepare when given a certain task or responsibilities within the company. 170 00:14:00,858 --> 00:14:02,409 So that's always been a really good indicator. 171 00:14:02,409 --> 00:14:07,392 And then often we've seen people who start with us in a certain role. 172 00:14:07,590 --> 00:14:09,661 and evolve into a completely different role. 173 00:14:09,661 --> 00:14:16,474 We had one person started in regulatory analysis, basically loading data into the system, and they now run our AI team. 174 00:14:16,474 --> 00:14:22,016 And they were able to make that transition because they really showed that, A, they wanted to learn and grow. 175 00:14:22,016 --> 00:14:25,778 And once we gave them the opportunity to do that, they executed, they did it really well. 176 00:14:25,778 --> 00:14:30,600 And then we of kept adding on more responsibilities and more team members to that team. 177 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:35,162 So again, on the entry level sort of jobs, 178 00:14:35,242 --> 00:14:36,513 It's about that preparation. 179 00:14:36,513 --> 00:14:43,525 And when people write us cover letters, if anybody listening to this who's applying for a job, is the cover letters that always stand out are the ones where they're written for the 180 00:14:43,525 --> 00:14:45,006 role and for the company. 181 00:14:45,006 --> 00:14:56,531 And they talk as much as possible about what this person will contribute to the company, why they want to join the company, and not cover letters that I see very often, which are, 182 00:14:56,531 --> 00:15:02,293 did this and I did that and I went to this school and I, and they're like boasting basically. 183 00:15:02,293 --> 00:15:04,077 And I'm like, good for you, like, 184 00:15:04,077 --> 00:15:05,237 I don't really care. 185 00:15:05,237 --> 00:15:08,337 What I care about is what are you going to do for the company? 186 00:15:08,497 --> 00:15:11,897 And highlighting that in your cover letter, think really does help you stand out. 187 00:15:11,897 --> 00:15:19,197 just hired someone who said, I applied to like 50 different jobs before we got hired at Mnemonic. 188 00:15:19,197 --> 00:15:23,517 And over time, they figured out they had to change their cover letter, change their approach. 189 00:15:23,517 --> 00:15:30,517 And I think in this job market, depending on the roles you're looking for, you got to really stand out from the crowd. 190 00:15:30,517 --> 00:15:33,917 There is a lot of competition for certain roles currently. 191 00:15:34,140 --> 00:15:35,980 Absolutely, absolutely. 192 00:15:35,980 --> 00:15:36,980 That's really interesting. 193 00:15:36,980 --> 00:15:40,506 It's such a simple and subtle tweak. 194 00:15:40,506 --> 00:15:42,157 but it's so impactful. 195 00:15:42,157 --> 00:15:51,041 And, you know, I always say that no matter whether you, you classify yourself as a salesperson or not, you are always selling yourself. 196 00:15:51,381 --> 00:15:52,502 You're always selling. 197 00:15:52,502 --> 00:15:55,623 And so a cover letter is a perfect example of that. 198 00:15:55,623 --> 00:16:02,826 And to only speak about the things that you do well is, a complete disservice to, yeah, to the company. 199 00:16:02,826 --> 00:16:04,107 They don't know what you can bring. 200 00:16:04,107 --> 00:16:05,888 They don't know what you'll offer. 201 00:16:06,088 --> 00:16:07,509 Do you know what you'll offer? 202 00:16:07,509 --> 00:16:08,389 Right. 203 00:16:08,389 --> 00:16:10,670 So that's, I think that's a really interesting 204 00:16:10,670 --> 00:16:22,015 interesting thing to look for and that paired with the fact that people come prepared which translates into initiative once they're in the company, that's huge. 205 00:16:22,015 --> 00:16:30,438 So those are some great key indicators and I'm happy to hear that you figured those out as well because a lot of organizations take a lot of time to figure that out. 206 00:16:30,438 --> 00:16:32,315 Some don't ever figure it out. 207 00:16:32,315 --> 00:16:32,974 get me wrong. 208 00:16:32,974 --> 00:16:34,667 I we still make hiring mistakes. 209 00:16:34,667 --> 00:16:38,200 We still hire certain people that don't end up working out for various reasons. 210 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:40,251 So there's no perfect solution. 211 00:16:40,251 --> 00:16:41,583 Humans are messy. 212 00:16:41,583 --> 00:16:43,264 Companies are messy. 213 00:16:44,425 --> 00:16:45,336 But we do our best. 214 00:16:45,336 --> 00:16:54,134 mean, we try to just learn and reduce as much as possible our mistakes, because hiring mistakes are very expensive. 215 00:16:54,134 --> 00:16:56,556 Turnovers are extraordinarily expensive. 216 00:16:56,636 --> 00:16:59,188 So you definitely want to avoid it if you can. 217 00:16:59,416 --> 00:17:00,437 Absolutely. 218 00:17:00,437 --> 00:17:01,117 Absolutely. 219 00:17:01,117 --> 00:17:12,462 Now on the vein of messy and mistakes, one of the things that I think helps to navigate and to mitigate some of those mistakes and some of that mess once people are in the 220 00:17:12,462 --> 00:17:16,964 organization doing the work every single day is having a solid structure and process. 221 00:17:16,984 --> 00:17:27,649 And, you know, you and I briefly touched on this earlier that you model some of mnemonic structures and frameworks on the likes of some of the big players of excellent cultures 222 00:17:27,649 --> 00:17:28,930 like Toyota. 223 00:17:28,930 --> 00:17:29,370 So 224 00:17:29,370 --> 00:17:41,299 if you wouldn't mind just touching a little bit on how the decision to use structures and to follow some of those models has really helped to shape the culture and the operations 225 00:17:41,299 --> 00:17:42,991 within mnemonic today. 226 00:17:43,374 --> 00:17:56,378 Well, I'd say a few years ago, probably around 2018, Mnemonic had been growing since we started and we got into a position where we were a little bit too, we expanded a little 227 00:17:56,378 --> 00:17:59,099 bit too quickly and we were spending too much money. 228 00:18:00,479 --> 00:18:09,622 And we decided or we had to decide to let go a few people, not because of performance or anything, but purely from a financial point of view. 229 00:18:09,998 --> 00:18:17,458 And when that happened, we kind of took a hard look at ourselves and we said, you know, why we were growing, growing, growing, but we were going in so many different directions. 230 00:18:17,458 --> 00:18:21,238 We were trying to appease many different customers who had very different needs. 231 00:18:21,258 --> 00:18:27,798 And we tried to recenter our focus on who are the real customers we should be serving as a business. 232 00:18:27,798 --> 00:18:36,418 Where can we be excellent in the marketplace rather than trying to make everybody happy, you know, make a smaller set of people or smaller set of customers very happy. 233 00:18:36,418 --> 00:18:39,458 And so we looked around for different models of companies. 234 00:18:39,958 --> 00:18:41,980 and one that stood out was Toyota. 235 00:18:41,980 --> 00:18:56,091 for those who aren't familiar, Toyota's innovation in the automobile sector dates back to the 1950s, 60s, 70s, where after the Second World War, the Japanese economy was decimated 236 00:18:56,091 --> 00:19:02,196 and they wanted to figure out how could they catch up to American and European auto manufacturers very quickly. 237 00:19:02,296 --> 00:19:09,762 And basically the Toyota approach, which is what's called lean manufacturing, is this concept of reducing waste. 238 00:19:09,998 --> 00:19:20,854 standardizing systems, making work kind of consistent and equal and we could do a whole podcast on lean manufacturing, but basically putting in place policies, procedures and 239 00:19:20,854 --> 00:19:28,569 systems and then focusing on getting quality right at the beginning rather than trying to fix problems after they've occurred. 240 00:19:28,569 --> 00:19:38,702 And what Toyota did with this process is they demonstrate that it's actually much more cost effective to solve quality upfront rather than just produce huge volume. 241 00:19:38,702 --> 00:19:40,862 and then fix problems afterwards. 242 00:19:41,602 --> 00:19:50,042 And just trying to summarize this concept in just a few minutes is difficult, but basically we tried to apply this to Monek where we said, okay, what can we cut out of the 243 00:19:50,042 --> 00:19:50,402 process? 244 00:19:50,402 --> 00:19:51,462 What can we simplify? 245 00:19:51,462 --> 00:19:52,982 What can we standardize? 246 00:19:52,982 --> 00:20:00,082 And where can we solve quality problems before they appear down the road and then we have an unhappy customer or some other issue. 247 00:20:00,082 --> 00:20:02,422 And so we put that in place over the last years. 248 00:20:02,422 --> 00:20:05,902 But I think anybody who knows Toyota's lead manufacturing 249 00:20:06,062 --> 00:20:09,904 principles which are now used in basically every manufacturing company in the world. 250 00:20:09,904 --> 00:20:14,646 You cannot compete in manufacturing if you are not a lean manufacturing company. 251 00:20:16,347 --> 00:20:20,909 putting this in place really did save the business and we focused on these are the customers we're going to focus on. 252 00:20:20,909 --> 00:20:23,130 This is the service we're going to focus on. 253 00:20:23,130 --> 00:20:33,398 We removed parts of the software, we removed parts of the company and since then it's been a lot more stable and predictable growth with less headaches. 254 00:20:33,398 --> 00:20:36,800 zero headaches of course, but less headaches. 255 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:40,213 And so that's been a huge benefit for the company. 256 00:20:40,213 --> 00:20:50,019 And so there's lots of resources out there on this philosophy that can be used not just, we're not a manufacturing company, we produce software, but basically any company, even if 257 00:20:50,019 --> 00:20:55,893 you're doing consulting or training, anything at all, you can apply these principles in your organization. 258 00:20:55,893 --> 00:20:57,814 They're very, very powerful. 259 00:20:58,116 --> 00:20:59,617 Absolutely, yeah. 260 00:20:59,617 --> 00:21:04,919 And the proactivity is key, rather than adding to the stress of having to go back. 261 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:15,996 And one thing that you said that really, I think, resonates with especially entrepreneurs these days is that, as entrepreneurs, we have many ideas, which means that we can start 262 00:21:15,996 --> 00:21:16,876 many projects. 263 00:21:16,876 --> 00:21:18,207 so one... 264 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:26,303 One piece of advice that sticks with me and it's a common adage, but if you're a jack of all trades, you're a master of none. 265 00:21:26,483 --> 00:21:39,229 so knowing kind of who your hundred raving fans are and sticking to those and making sure that you can deliver a quality product upfront so that you can then continue to grow. 266 00:21:39,229 --> 00:21:43,051 And when you said predictability, I think that is one of the key things, right? 267 00:21:43,051 --> 00:21:50,106 And especially in this day and age when everything is changing around us, if you have predictable and sustainable 268 00:21:50,106 --> 00:22:01,300 growth as much as possible, then that's just one less thing to worry about and the rest is focused on maybe new innovation, focused on how we manage the change that comes from 269 00:22:01,300 --> 00:22:02,662 external factors. 270 00:22:02,662 --> 00:22:07,647 So I think that's fantastic that you made that change and that it's been working out. 271 00:22:08,034 --> 00:22:12,596 Yeah, I think it's a balancing act. 272 00:22:12,897 --> 00:22:18,690 Getting quality perfect upfront is extremely difficult, extremely costly. 273 00:22:18,690 --> 00:22:25,854 And if you don't have the capital to say work on product development for two, three, four years, whatever it might be, that's just not realistic. 274 00:22:25,854 --> 00:22:30,826 So you need to take into consideration your own company's resources. 275 00:22:30,926 --> 00:22:37,720 We're bootstrapped, meaning we've never raised external institutional money from venture capital or 276 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:39,211 private equity or anything like that. 277 00:22:39,211 --> 00:22:45,573 So we've really just grown with our revenues and a little bit of debt, know, bank debt over the years, but minimal amount. 278 00:22:45,833 --> 00:22:47,764 And so that's constrained us. 279 00:22:47,764 --> 00:22:57,358 also forced us to focus and forced us to be sort of responsible financially speaking, whereas some companies will go out and raise a lot of money from investors. 280 00:22:57,358 --> 00:23:05,281 And that comes with advantages of having a lot of capital, but it comes with the disadvantages of having to give a return on investment to your investors within a certain 281 00:23:05,281 --> 00:23:05,741 timeframe. 282 00:23:05,741 --> 00:23:07,244 And that creates tremendous 283 00:23:07,244 --> 00:23:08,575 tremendous pressure. 284 00:23:08,575 --> 00:23:13,999 But as a bootstrap company, there's no question that we sometimes over promise to our customers. 285 00:23:13,999 --> 00:23:16,921 I I'll be totally transparent about that. 286 00:23:16,921 --> 00:23:19,462 They come to us and say, can you do this and that and that? 287 00:23:19,543 --> 00:23:26,228 if it's aligned, and this is the key thing, if it's aligned with our strategy, we will say yes, right? 288 00:23:26,228 --> 00:23:34,053 So if they are asking us for something that's going to help move the company in the strategic direction we've chosen to do, we'll say, yeah, we can do it. 289 00:23:34,053 --> 00:23:34,523 No problem. 290 00:23:34,523 --> 00:23:35,566 Don't worry about it. 291 00:23:35,566 --> 00:23:43,086 And sometimes that means running like crazy and getting it done really quickly for the customer before they realize we didn't have a product to sell them when they first 292 00:23:43,086 --> 00:23:45,746 contacted us or we didn't have what they wanted to sell us. 293 00:23:45,906 --> 00:23:55,826 But the trick there, which is the mistake we made back in 2016, 2017 is we said yes too often or we said yes for things that were not aligned with a strategy. 294 00:23:55,826 --> 00:23:59,066 We didn't even have a strategy at that time. 295 00:24:00,006 --> 00:24:04,622 And the consequence of that is that we just went off in like five different directions at once and that 296 00:24:04,622 --> 00:24:06,262 was killing us. 297 00:24:06,482 --> 00:24:09,082 So it's all about strategy first. 298 00:24:09,082 --> 00:24:17,102 And if there's another, I want come back to one of your other questions, something I would recommend to myself, younger or to a new entrepreneur, is figure out strategy first. 299 00:24:17,102 --> 00:24:22,762 Take your time to really figure out strategy, which is very difficult to do. 300 00:24:22,762 --> 00:24:30,062 And I think that's where the majority of businesses fail, is they fail to take the time to work on strategy. 301 00:24:30,062 --> 00:24:33,610 And they jump too much right away into tactics, meaning 302 00:24:33,610 --> 00:24:36,892 a marketing campaign or this or that or whatever it might be. 303 00:24:36,892 --> 00:24:45,286 But figuring out strategy and how you're to position yourself within the market, how you're going to differentiate yourself, and then testing that strategy and then focusing 304 00:24:45,286 --> 00:24:49,717 on it and staying focused, that's, in my opinion, the core. 305 00:24:50,278 --> 00:24:53,780 But you don't have to figure everything out upfront. 306 00:24:53,780 --> 00:24:56,261 We definitely tell customers, yeah, we can do it. 307 00:24:56,261 --> 00:24:59,072 Don't worry about it as long as it's aligned with strategy. 308 00:24:59,206 --> 00:25:00,498 Yes, no, excellent. 309 00:25:00,498 --> 00:25:05,607 And I would agree with you that most companies struggle with that strategy piece. 310 00:25:05,607 --> 00:25:11,580 And I actually had that conversation with the team today that they didn't have, they didn't feel aligned. 311 00:25:11,580 --> 00:25:16,400 on the goals or the strategy and it felt like everybody was kind of going off in different directions. 312 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:24,840 And so I think that your emphasis on creating strategy and having strong strategy in place allows you to have team members. 313 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:34,440 And I'm going to go back to what you said earlier, allows you to have team members that can put their heads down, focus, and you can leave them to do the work that they do. 314 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:38,438 They have autonomy to be able to do so because they know. 315 00:25:38,438 --> 00:25:40,221 they know what they're striving for. 316 00:25:40,221 --> 00:25:44,598 Everybody's facing the same direction, working towards the same goals. 317 00:25:44,598 --> 00:25:50,847 When you don't have that, that's when there's a little more coaching that's needed, right? 318 00:25:50,914 --> 00:25:58,719 Yeah, think strategy, even if you set a strategy and you communicate to everybody, it's something that you constantly have to reinforce. 319 00:25:58,719 --> 00:26:04,242 I forget what the numbers are, suddenly you need to hear a message 50 times before it really sticks in your head. 320 00:26:04,242 --> 00:26:07,624 I hence why companies spend so much money on marketing. 321 00:26:07,624 --> 00:26:17,780 I Coca-Cola's marketing budget or Apple's marketing budget, whatever billions of dollars it is, there's a reason that they are constantly reinforcing their brand. 322 00:26:17,856 --> 00:26:26,633 in our heads through the advertisements and as someone who runs an organization, whether it's for profit, non-profit, governmental, whatever it is, if you're trying to keep people 323 00:26:26,633 --> 00:26:30,706 aligned, you can't just send one email or do one meeting and be like, okay, we're good for the year. 324 00:26:30,706 --> 00:26:33,198 It's not gonna stick. 325 00:26:33,198 --> 00:26:43,694 So you gotta constantly be reminding people and not in a way that is always the same thing because if it's always like an email or a Zoom call, 326 00:26:43,694 --> 00:26:47,314 it kind of gets a bit redundant and it goes in one ear, comes out the other. 327 00:26:47,314 --> 00:26:48,274 So we try and mix it up. 328 00:26:48,274 --> 00:26:49,774 We have team events. 329 00:26:49,974 --> 00:26:55,794 Every month we watch a movie related to a compliance disaster. 330 00:26:55,794 --> 00:27:04,694 So a disaster that was usually caused death and damaged the environment because regulations or engineering standards weren't followed. 331 00:27:04,694 --> 00:27:10,842 So many of us will know things like the Deepwater Horizon platform in the Gulf of Mexico that blew up about 12 years ago. 332 00:27:10,842 --> 00:27:13,032 But there's many, many industrial disasters around the world. 333 00:27:13,032 --> 00:27:16,164 So we watch one movie together, a documentary a month. 334 00:27:17,365 --> 00:27:20,666 Then we do different activities, team events, there's emails obviously, there's all this. 335 00:27:20,666 --> 00:27:24,908 But it needs to be this constant reminder of like, this is why we exist as an organization. 336 00:27:24,908 --> 00:27:26,229 These are our goals. 337 00:27:26,229 --> 00:27:27,359 This is how we're to get there. 338 00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:29,590 This is how we're different from our competitors. 339 00:27:30,350 --> 00:27:38,794 And then also like kind of having competitors and sort of making it a bit of a rivalry can also help reinforce that strategy. 340 00:27:39,446 --> 00:27:46,674 So there's a whole bunch of tactics out there, of course, to do this, but it's a constant reminder it needs to happen. 341 00:27:46,832 --> 00:27:47,993 Yes, absolutely. 342 00:27:47,993 --> 00:27:58,242 mean, I just want to underline rubber stamp highlight when you said that you can't just send out one email and expect that everybody has understood what you've said. 343 00:27:58,623 --> 00:28:00,794 And the movie, that's a really interesting one. 344 00:28:00,794 --> 00:28:09,312 I haven't heard that before, but I think that's such a neat way to engage your team and to create a moment to bond and to connect. 345 00:28:09,312 --> 00:28:10,774 So that's really, really cool. 346 00:28:10,774 --> 00:28:12,014 I love that. 347 00:28:12,175 --> 00:28:13,607 Yeah, I haven't done that 348 00:28:13,607 --> 00:28:20,431 I watch some of these movies because we ask people for recommendations on disasters that are linked to compliance. 349 00:28:20,431 --> 00:28:23,323 And so I've learned about disasters I didn't even know about. 350 00:28:23,323 --> 00:28:26,735 And it even helps me stay motivated and focused. 351 00:28:26,735 --> 00:28:31,518 So I think it's beneficial for everybody, even the leaders, if you will. 352 00:28:32,068 --> 00:28:43,475 So then let me ask you from the recommendation standpoint, if there are people listening who aren't so familiar with compliance disasters and what that could mean for them, their 353 00:28:43,475 --> 00:28:51,548 organization, or organizations around the world, what's one good movie as an entry point for them to watch? 354 00:28:52,044 --> 00:28:57,437 Yeah, these movies aren't generally like the most sort of uplifting and happy movies to be fair. 355 00:28:57,938 --> 00:29:10,566 But if you want one movie that I thought was very well done, and it's a movie in the sense that it's a recreation, it's not a documentary, I would recommend the film Dark Waters, 356 00:29:10,787 --> 00:29:17,332 which is about the lawyer Robert Below who investigated PFAS. 357 00:29:17,332 --> 00:29:19,143 So you might hear about PFAS in the news. 358 00:29:19,143 --> 00:29:21,056 It's called these forever chemicals. 359 00:29:21,056 --> 00:29:31,059 It's basically if you have a Teflon pan, which many of us do, the chemical that is Teflon, Teflon's the brand, but the chemicals that are in Teflon are, the acronym is PFAS, and 360 00:29:31,059 --> 00:29:34,150 these chemicals basically don't break down in the environment. 361 00:29:34,650 --> 00:29:37,571 And so when you consume them, they stay in your body forever. 362 00:29:37,571 --> 00:29:42,812 And more more regulators now are starting to regulate these and ban them. 363 00:29:43,192 --> 00:29:49,074 But it's really all because of this lawyer's work about 25 years ago, where he was... 364 00:29:49,376 --> 00:29:53,730 investigating some claims and eventually led to large lawsuits. 365 00:29:53,730 --> 00:29:58,343 So I think the movie is very good just as a movie itself in terms of a narrative and story and acting. 366 00:29:58,343 --> 00:30:01,441 So Dark Waters, I think it was on Netflix for a while. 367 00:30:01,441 --> 00:30:03,347 I'm not sure where it is now, but you can find it. 368 00:30:03,347 --> 00:30:05,518 It was a big Hollywood production. 369 00:30:05,518 --> 00:30:06,860 So I'd watch that one. 370 00:30:06,860 --> 00:30:07,791 I would recommend that one. 371 00:30:07,791 --> 00:30:09,522 That's the best one I've seen, I think. 372 00:30:09,838 --> 00:30:10,359 Excellent. 373 00:30:10,359 --> 00:30:11,970 Okay noted. 374 00:30:12,071 --> 00:30:14,030 I will add that to my personal movie list. 375 00:30:14,030 --> 00:30:17,726 and they'll probably throw it all your Teflon pans afterwards, hopefully. 376 00:30:17,726 --> 00:30:20,073 So it's pretty scary stuff, honestly. 377 00:30:20,282 --> 00:30:21,078 Yes, yeah. 378 00:30:21,078 --> 00:30:23,971 And there are so many things that we're not aware of and... 379 00:30:24,238 --> 00:30:35,985 I think one of the interesting documentaries I watched recently, the name escapes me, but it was about the clothing industry and where all of the returns from a lot of the brands 380 00:30:35,985 --> 00:30:41,158 go and what happens to them, or I guess I should say what doesn't happen to them. 381 00:30:41,788 --> 00:30:51,143 it's, you you think the lifestyle and the life cycle, I should say, sorry, the life cycle of a product that we create. 382 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:57,582 If you don't think through the full life cycle, then you do end up with a lot of compliance issues. 383 00:30:57,582 --> 00:31:00,544 You end up creating more problems than you're solving. 384 00:31:00,544 --> 00:31:05,686 So I think documentaries like that are key, especially for entrepreneurs who have an idea. 385 00:31:05,686 --> 00:31:08,377 Think to what happens when this is no longer relevant. 386 00:31:08,377 --> 00:31:13,249 This service isn't, or this product isn't required by our clients anymore. 387 00:31:13,249 --> 00:31:14,290 Then what? 388 00:31:14,290 --> 00:31:17,211 How does it die, so to speak, right? 389 00:31:18,051 --> 00:31:19,894 Very interesting, very interesting. 390 00:31:19,894 --> 00:31:21,795 Lots going on out there for sure. 391 00:31:22,076 --> 00:31:29,197 But staying on top of trends is something that I think is super important for any business, any person as well. 392 00:31:29,197 --> 00:31:35,165 Obviously AI is the hype of the town as they say these days. 393 00:31:35,646 --> 00:31:45,193 But I mean, I was marked by some people that I know who started businesses and didn't really stay abreast of the trends and basically were, you know, were sideswiped by things 394 00:31:45,193 --> 00:31:46,774 that changed in the market. 395 00:31:47,214 --> 00:31:54,474 And that's a difficult thing to do is to kind of stay on top of what's going on, competitors, new technology, new trends, things of that nature. 396 00:31:54,474 --> 00:31:59,274 And certainly in the consumer space, it's maybe even more challenging than in the B2B space where we operate. 397 00:31:59,974 --> 00:32:11,894 But yeah, there's a lot of information out there, a lot of noise to be fair, but trying to distinguish that, you know, the signal from the noise is really the crux of the battle, I 398 00:32:11,894 --> 00:32:13,374 think, in many ways. 399 00:32:13,754 --> 00:32:17,012 Yes, definitely, a clear strategy helps you get there. 400 00:32:18,075 --> 00:32:20,855 A strategy that you know got to evolve over time. 401 00:32:21,136 --> 00:32:22,366 Nothing's set in stone. 402 00:32:22,366 --> 00:32:28,959 You your strategy today may be very different from what it is in 10, 15, 20 years, you know whenever things change. 403 00:32:29,260 --> 00:32:37,063 So there's a good, one of the frameworks that also helped us a lot, that I definitely recommend is a framework called Scaling Up. 404 00:32:37,063 --> 00:32:40,384 It's by a fellow named Vern Harnash, it's pretty well known. 405 00:32:41,185 --> 00:32:43,036 And so in there they have four pillars. 406 00:32:43,036 --> 00:32:43,826 It's 407 00:32:44,034 --> 00:32:50,820 cash, so cash flow to make sure your business is sound, people, strategy, and operations. 408 00:32:50,820 --> 00:32:58,896 And one of the things they recommend is like basically doing a strategic review, I think it's like every three or four months or something, taking into fact trends. 409 00:32:58,896 --> 00:33:04,801 know, people know about the SWOT analysis, which is like strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, threats, very popular. 410 00:33:04,801 --> 00:33:08,394 He recommends adding to that trend. 411 00:33:08,394 --> 00:33:13,014 So what are the trends in your industry that may have a significant effect? 412 00:33:13,014 --> 00:33:13,755 on your business. 413 00:33:13,755 --> 00:33:22,892 It might be AI, it might be something else, but looking at trends is a big part of that framework and I think it makes a lot of sense. 414 00:33:23,162 --> 00:33:24,093 I would have to agree. 415 00:33:24,093 --> 00:33:24,743 I would have to agree. 416 00:33:24,743 --> 00:33:29,948 And especially, you know, trends in an industry, but also geographically, I think is something important. 417 00:33:29,948 --> 00:33:32,400 Another layer to look at, right? 418 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:41,427 That you, for yourself, you operate across different continents, which means that there are different trends happening at different times. 419 00:33:41,998 --> 00:33:51,258 So one of the questions I have for you just about your team and the communication and cohesion that you have is how do you sort of centralize your communication and centralize 420 00:33:51,258 --> 00:34:01,027 your collaboration with your team when everybody is so spread out and have different time zones, operate on different time zones as well? 421 00:34:01,998 --> 00:34:10,498 Yeah, I think just, I mean, just to start with the last one about time zones that we actually did a bit of like an education session with people about time zones and sort of 422 00:34:10,498 --> 00:34:17,418 like taking into consideration that what you're trying to call to somebody in Asia, there's a you send an email, then they start their workday. 423 00:34:17,418 --> 00:34:20,878 So it's automatically a 24 hour delay basically. 424 00:34:21,238 --> 00:34:30,498 So we did some education around there, but you know, we've divided the, we've tried to keep the company very flat organization, basically like two or three level layers. 425 00:34:31,118 --> 00:34:32,070 And 426 00:34:32,386 --> 00:34:42,702 Then we have distinct teams and each team has targets and objectives and the targets and objectives of one team kind of correspond to the input for the next team. 427 00:34:42,702 --> 00:34:46,814 So think of it as like a production line, again, coming back to this Toyota idea. 428 00:34:46,814 --> 00:34:55,742 So each team sort of, this is where you're taking in as material or as things and this is what you have to produce and this is the output and then that feeds to the next team. 429 00:34:55,742 --> 00:35:01,358 And so you have this sort of production line type of environment, even though it's not a physical good, it is digital. 430 00:35:01,358 --> 00:35:03,458 but there's the inputs and the outputs. 431 00:35:03,518 --> 00:35:12,978 Then we measure on a weekly basis, we look at are all the teams hitting their targets, are there issues, and then obviously when there's issues, we dive into them. 432 00:35:12,978 --> 00:35:24,898 That's helped create clarity as to what each team needs to do and then the KPIs for those teams go down to the individual level and say, you can try going to do this and John is 433 00:35:24,898 --> 00:35:28,118 going to do this, these are your targets, and they roll up to the team level. 434 00:35:28,258 --> 00:35:29,978 Then when it comes to communication, 435 00:35:30,702 --> 00:35:32,742 put in place pretty basic tools. 436 00:35:32,742 --> 00:35:37,802 I don't think you need anything particularly complicated or sophisticated. 437 00:35:37,802 --> 00:35:43,142 We have the Google Suite Gmail and Google Docs and what have you. 438 00:35:43,142 --> 00:35:50,382 We have a Wiki that we use internally for procedures and information about how the business runs. 439 00:35:50,602 --> 00:35:59,542 And then basically we have a project management tool called Trello where we put things in there and people can comment and annotate and we have a sort of a process in there to move 440 00:35:59,542 --> 00:36:00,602 things along. 441 00:36:00,610 --> 00:36:05,694 But say with those three tools and then our CRM for the sales team, that's basically it. 442 00:36:05,694 --> 00:36:12,860 It's only like four or five tools to ensure that everybody has access to all the relevant information within the organization. 443 00:36:13,421 --> 00:36:20,168 then, yeah, I mean, so it's not the tool or the software in this case is not the hard part. 444 00:36:20,168 --> 00:36:26,491 The hard part is, think, getting the teams aligned and setting these sort of a structure that makes sense for everybody. 445 00:36:26,832 --> 00:36:29,742 And then just having some basic tools in place, obviously, are. 446 00:36:29,742 --> 00:36:33,084 critical for email and video calls and things of that nature. 447 00:36:33,370 --> 00:36:36,680 Definitely, and I mean the tools are only as useful as the people that use them. 448 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:37,902 That's what I always say, right? 449 00:36:37,902 --> 00:36:48,818 So I find that organizations that have a lot of tools, it's just, to use your words, more noise and more things that people have to align on, they have to check, rather than 450 00:36:48,818 --> 00:36:50,799 actually allowing them to focus on doing the work. 451 00:36:50,799 --> 00:36:56,070 It's more in maintenance, which isn't always helpful at the end of the day. 452 00:36:56,070 --> 00:37:00,494 I every tool you add, every system you add is maintenance, as you said. 453 00:37:00,494 --> 00:37:06,218 And someone needs to operate it, people need to understand how to use it, as long as it breaks. 454 00:37:06,899 --> 00:37:13,844 So before adding in new things to an organization, you got to really determine if it's justified. 455 00:37:14,365 --> 00:37:20,510 The counterpoint to that is like, if you wait too long and you do too much analysis, nothing ever gets done. 456 00:37:20,510 --> 00:37:25,334 So it's this weird sort of, there's two sides of the coin. 457 00:37:25,592 --> 00:37:29,547 But yeah, you got to push back. 458 00:37:29,547 --> 00:37:34,182 then when there's a clear value, it's like try and move quickly and implement it. 459 00:37:34,182 --> 00:37:35,473 Yeah. 460 00:37:37,525 --> 00:37:38,267 Absolutely. 461 00:37:38,267 --> 00:37:42,936 And you open yourself up to some compliance issues with more tools too, right? 462 00:37:42,936 --> 00:37:43,546 For sure, yeah. 463 00:37:43,546 --> 00:37:53,829 mean, every software system now with the IT security information, data privacy, in theory, like a modern organization, they have to vet all the tools that are coming in, validate 464 00:37:53,829 --> 00:37:58,410 that they're in compliance, that they have robust systems in place for data privacy. 465 00:37:58,410 --> 00:38:08,513 And even us as a vendor to many large companies, I've seen the procurement process dramatically increasing complexity and in requirements. 466 00:38:08,513 --> 00:38:12,634 10, 15 years ago, people are like, I need a new software, I'm buy this thing, no problem, go for it. 467 00:38:12,834 --> 00:38:20,802 Nowadays, it's like lawyers and IT specialists and audits and it creates costs, it slows everything down. 468 00:38:20,802 --> 00:38:30,490 But on the other hand, we've seen these big hacks where companies get hacked with ransomware or they shut down pipelines, they shut down very large operations. 469 00:38:30,490 --> 00:38:39,318 So understandably, companies have put in place more robust verification process before they onboard a new vendor. 470 00:38:39,772 --> 00:38:40,112 Absolutely. 471 00:38:40,112 --> 00:38:41,894 And I mean, as they should at this point. 472 00:38:41,894 --> 00:38:45,076 So it's, it's not the worst thing. 473 00:38:46,097 --> 00:38:47,358 Very nice. 474 00:38:47,358 --> 00:38:48,439 Okay. 475 00:38:49,180 --> 00:38:52,102 To wrap up, I have one final question for you. 476 00:38:53,283 --> 00:39:02,010 So the question is for yourself, obviously an entrepreneur for the last 18 years, you've built a phenomenal business. 477 00:39:02,010 --> 00:39:03,991 You're continuing to grow. 478 00:39:04,252 --> 00:39:08,075 What do you think is the most important? 479 00:39:08,075 --> 00:39:09,580 And again, I. 480 00:39:09,580 --> 00:39:12,475 Use that if you want to list a couple, that's fine too. 481 00:39:12,475 --> 00:39:23,392 But what would you say is the most important soft skill that a leader in your position can have or possess in order to achieve the success, to grow a team, and to run a business 482 00:39:23,392 --> 00:39:24,903 sustainably like you do? 483 00:39:28,078 --> 00:39:38,041 I think the most important soft skill is the listening or listening with intent. 484 00:39:38,821 --> 00:39:50,284 And so just being able to really listen to colleagues, to customers, to other people, so much insight can be gained from a good conversation. 485 00:39:50,284 --> 00:39:57,294 So much insight can be gained from just listening to another person explain a problem, a situation, opportunity, whatever it might be. 486 00:39:57,294 --> 00:40:06,177 but you really need to be listening attentively to what they're saying and often you will pick up on small clues that, okay, they're talking about this problem, but in reality, 487 00:40:06,177 --> 00:40:12,078 there's this other root cause or this other effect or cause or symptom or what have you. 488 00:40:12,078 --> 00:40:25,882 So just focusing on listening to me, if I had to give one soft skill, it'll be being able to listen and take in information with attention. 489 00:40:25,882 --> 00:40:38,354 I think there's a bunch of books and there's a term for this probably, but yeah, just the ability to really listen to what the person is saying, I think would be something I would 490 00:40:38,354 --> 00:40:41,277 encourage everybody to focus on. 491 00:40:43,196 --> 00:40:43,837 Excellent. 492 00:40:43,837 --> 00:40:44,797 Perfect. 493 00:40:44,797 --> 00:40:51,103 Well, thank you so much for sharing all of these nuggets of wisdom, for sharing your journey and your experience. 494 00:40:51,103 --> 00:40:58,248 I think there are a lot of key takeaways for folks at any level in any organization. 495 00:40:58,309 --> 00:41:02,552 So I just really want to thank you for your time and for sharing your knowledge today. 496 00:41:02,786 --> 00:41:03,511 My pleasure Kendra. 497 00:41:03,511 --> 00:41:04,135 Have a great day. 498 00:41:04,135 --> 00:41:06,709 Thanks so much for having me on the podcast. 499 00:41:07,014 --> 00:41:08,723 Thank you, my pleasure.