WEBVTT 00:00:00.017 --> 00:00:06.097 Can a believer, can a Christian be possessed by a demon? 00:00:06.377 --> 00:00:14.237 I think that the primary textbook for possession and guidance in evil spirits is the scripture. 00:00:14.437 --> 00:00:17.017 I don't believe it's our experience. 00:00:17.497 --> 00:00:23.577 I don't believe it's the culture. I don't believe it's neo-charismatic movement, 00:00:24.237 --> 00:00:27.737 new apostolic movement. Welcome to the Uncut Podcast. 00:00:29.277 --> 00:00:34.657 I'm Pastor Luke. I am Pastor Cameron. And this is the Uncut Podcast where we 00:00:34.657 --> 00:00:39.997 have uncut, honest conversations about faith, life, and ministry, 00:00:40.177 --> 00:00:42.297 and other things occasionally. 00:00:42.677 --> 00:00:46.217 Yes. Yeah. Welcome back. Yes. Welcome back. 00:00:46.297 --> 00:00:48.957 I don't know actually how long long it 00:00:48.957 --> 00:00:52.117 is since we posted last um yeah 00:00:52.117 --> 00:00:54.997 but it had it seems like it's 00:00:54.997 --> 00:00:58.057 been months yeah i think it's probably been almost 00:00:58.057 --> 00:01:00.837 a month a month yeah we're probably maybe just 00:01:00.837 --> 00:01:03.757 like one week over a month right so we posted like the 00:01:03.757 --> 00:01:06.897 week new year same intro we should 00:01:06.897 --> 00:01:10.557 switch spots 00:01:10.557 --> 00:01:16.257 is what we we should do that we had an intention but definitely 00:01:16.257 --> 00:01:20.057 just kind of 00:01:20.057 --> 00:01:22.957 reflecting that the new year's been kind of like trying to 00:01:22.957 --> 00:01:26.497 get everything back on normal rhythm has been 00:01:26.497 --> 00:01:32.557 a bit of uh well then i got sick yeah you got sick like twice and so it has 00:01:32.557 --> 00:01:37.197 been a little bit strange and yeah all of all of ministry seems to have been 00:01:37.197 --> 00:01:43.977 a little herky-jerky yes so far this year but But the day is young as it goes. 00:01:44.157 --> 00:01:48.917 Yeah. So we've got time. But anyway, we're eager to get back. Yeah. 00:01:49.677 --> 00:01:51.757 Get back at the podcast. Yeah. 00:01:53.593 --> 00:01:57.913 To essentially get our second year. We'll call it our second season. 00:01:58.193 --> 00:01:59.273 Don't call it a comeback. 00:02:00.273 --> 00:02:03.933 Our second season of podcasting out there. 00:02:04.053 --> 00:02:09.353 We do have some topics still in queue to talk about, but as always, 00:02:09.533 --> 00:02:15.613 we're happy to take any recommendations or anything like that from you all. 00:02:15.713 --> 00:02:22.513 We may do some podcast episodes that maybe a little bit parallel some of our preaching. 00:02:22.513 --> 00:02:28.233 Preaching some of our preaching topics yeah um and that maybe will be helpful for us, 00:02:28.773 --> 00:02:32.033 but also be helpful for 00:02:32.033 --> 00:02:39.013 those of you who listen who may go to conduit or who follow us online um and 00:02:39.013 --> 00:02:43.033 we can maybe touch on some things here that we didn't touch on on a sunday morning 00:02:43.033 --> 00:02:47.433 or on a wednesday night when we're yep teaching or whatever the case may be 00:02:47.433 --> 00:02:50.933 but how about this um We can get into the topic. 00:02:50.993 --> 00:02:53.733 We do have a topic we're going to talk about, kind of a theological topic. 00:02:54.893 --> 00:03:01.973 And we decided to skip the what are your New Year's resolutions, 00:03:02.333 --> 00:03:06.513 what are your goals or your vision or anything like that for the new year. 00:03:06.513 --> 00:03:11.673 And instead, maybe ask the question, 00:03:12.033 --> 00:03:20.933 is there something in ministry or not even in ministry, but in like your personal 00:03:20.933 --> 00:03:26.193 life or anything like that, that excites you about 2024? 00:03:31.880 --> 00:03:39.020 More books to read. You have more to read? Did you read all the ones you bought in 2023? No. 00:03:40.500 --> 00:03:45.660 But those are, that's like, you know. We don't buy books to read them. 00:03:45.680 --> 00:03:46.640 We don't buy books to read them. 00:03:46.680 --> 00:03:50.520 We buy them to have them so that we can put them behind us when we are in Zoom calls. 00:03:52.540 --> 00:03:57.560 That's true. No, I don't know. 00:03:57.620 --> 00:04:01.020 Like, I'm always interested about new learning. like 00:04:01.020 --> 00:04:04.120 that's something i always get interested in and so you 00:04:04.120 --> 00:04:07.140 know a new year for me probably the thing i get most excited 00:04:07.140 --> 00:04:09.940 about is like um you know 00:04:09.940 --> 00:04:12.960 kind of some fresh energy to tackle oh i 00:04:12.960 --> 00:04:16.200 want to finish that book or i want to start that book or um 00:04:16.200 --> 00:04:19.660 you know john mark comer just released or 00:04:19.660 --> 00:04:22.500 is releasing i don't know if it's out yet or not it is it is 00:04:22.500 --> 00:04:25.640 practicing the way yeah i will probably get that here soon 00:04:25.640 --> 00:04:28.520 um because i'm very interested in what 00:04:28.520 --> 00:04:32.580 he has to say in that book um so um 00:04:32.580 --> 00:04:36.440 really those learning opportunities are 00:04:36.440 --> 00:04:39.200 are really really kind of excite me 00:04:39.200 --> 00:04:48.740 um yeah so that's that's one of the things i'm excited about yeah yeah so new 00:04:48.740 --> 00:04:52.560 learning well are you read are you reading any books right now yeah i've been 00:04:52.560 --> 00:04:57.460 slowly been learning more about um Um, 00:04:58.420 --> 00:05:05.480 uh, I've been reading a book called, uh, the dark night of the soul, right? 00:05:05.720 --> 00:05:11.400 Yes. Dark night of the soul by the last name of the author is May. 00:05:11.640 --> 00:05:17.820 He's a psychologist, um, who takes the writings of St. John of the cross. 00:05:18.900 --> 00:05:24.400 Oh man. And I'm a terrible person for having forgotten, forgotten who else the 00:05:24.400 --> 00:05:29.180 other writer the nun who is probably more responsible for the thought work than 00:05:29.180 --> 00:05:35.360 saint john the cross but so forgive me i think it's i don't know i don't remember 00:05:35.360 --> 00:05:37.040 her name so i won't butcher it by, 00:05:37.640 --> 00:05:40.460 pretending i know her name but anyways there are 00:05:40.460 --> 00:05:43.660 some of their spiritual writings and particularly about 00:05:43.660 --> 00:05:46.240 the phenomenon that's called this dark night of the 00:05:46.240 --> 00:05:49.120 soul and he is reflection on 00:05:49.120 --> 00:05:52.200 it kind of bringing their very old writings 00:05:52.200 --> 00:05:56.600 which are from like the 1500s and making them 00:05:56.600 --> 00:05:59.820 contemporarily accessible to us modern day and 00:05:59.820 --> 00:06:02.780 then offering his own thoughts and reflections as a 00:06:02.780 --> 00:06:06.600 practicing clinical psychologist and counselor so 00:06:06.600 --> 00:06:09.440 i've been slowly working my way through that book as 00:06:09.440 --> 00:06:18.280 kind of more a reflective book and less um and less as a uh like a got to get 00:06:18.280 --> 00:06:22.120 through it kind of book um and then i've been reading some other books just 00:06:22.120 --> 00:06:25.920 about like learning about small businesses and what makes small businesses work 00:06:25.920 --> 00:06:27.960 and um and things like that. 00:06:30.395 --> 00:06:33.635 What about you well i yeah i'm 00:06:33.635 --> 00:06:36.855 reading a few different books right now all of them are really good 00:06:36.855 --> 00:06:40.915 um uh the one 00:06:40.915 --> 00:06:43.735 a few so a few of them i'm reading 00:06:43.735 --> 00:06:46.555 i'm reading um is god anti-gay by 00:06:46.555 --> 00:06:50.115 sam allberry who is a 00:06:50.115 --> 00:06:53.395 man that has same sex that's 00:06:53.395 --> 00:07:01.375 how he self-defines as i mean that he has same sex attraction and is a christian 00:07:01.375 --> 00:07:07.655 um and it uh it's been really interesting it's a really small little book and 00:07:07.655 --> 00:07:13.135 really easily accessible in terms of like its language and so i'd recommend it um, 00:07:14.355 --> 00:07:19.415 i don't i'm not gonna comment on what i what i agree with and what i don't agree 00:07:19.415 --> 00:07:23.995 with right now in it because i'm not finished with it but i think in general 00:07:23.995 --> 00:07:26.795 he talks a lot about how the um, 00:07:27.855 --> 00:07:33.295 The modern tendency to create identity based off sexuality. 00:07:34.075 --> 00:07:45.195 And how that has made it almost impossible for people to separate their attraction from their identity. 00:07:46.248 --> 00:07:51.448 Pretty good. Yeah. Pretty good thought process. I'm reading Elders in the Life 00:07:51.448 --> 00:07:55.568 of the Church by Alexander Strauch. That's very good. 00:07:56.828 --> 00:08:03.368 Pretty comprehensive book. Just talking about the kind of the theological foundation 00:08:03.368 --> 00:08:08.048 of the role or the office calling of elder in the church. 00:08:09.908 --> 00:08:12.768 You know as we've been talking here about you know 00:08:12.768 --> 00:08:16.068 whether or not an elder structure would be is is good for 00:08:16.068 --> 00:08:19.908 us here at conduit um i am 00:08:19.908 --> 00:08:22.688 reading kind of at a more from 00:08:22.688 --> 00:08:25.668 like a more personal semi-professional but really more personal 00:08:25.668 --> 00:08:28.648 interest those lines are blurry they are well they 00:08:28.648 --> 00:08:31.628 are for me sometimes really yeah um 00:08:31.628 --> 00:08:35.048 but this is a book called transforming trauma 00:08:35.048 --> 00:08:37.868 through jiu-jitsu book that i 00:08:37.868 --> 00:08:41.508 asked for for christmas and got which is a kind 00:08:41.508 --> 00:08:45.008 of a case study in the use of brazilian jiu-jitsu 00:08:45.008 --> 00:08:48.808 for the treatment of um 00:08:48.808 --> 00:08:51.888 significant trauma people's lives so while 00:08:51.888 --> 00:08:55.188 you're preparing to give someone head trauma you're healing 00:08:55.188 --> 00:08:59.848 your own emotional trauma or theirs but no 00:08:59.848 --> 00:09:03.288 i i say that jokingly but i know that that's like a yeah it's 00:09:03.288 --> 00:09:06.368 a really cool you've told me about that yeah yeah so i'm pretty i'm pretty 00:09:06.368 --> 00:09:09.208 pretty interested in that and then i 00:09:09.208 --> 00:09:12.568 ordered a book just this past week that's 00:09:12.568 --> 00:09:16.328 a pre-order that i'm really pre-ordering books 00:09:16.328 --> 00:09:20.868 yeah all i mean it doesn't even come until may i already ordered it's by john 00:09:20.868 --> 00:09:30.548 tyson and jefferson bethke okay uh john is a pastor um whose ministry and work 00:09:30.548 --> 00:09:33.848 i really really respect he pastored Church of the City in New York. 00:09:36.548 --> 00:09:41.968 And he and Jefferson wrote a book called Fighting, 00:09:43.484 --> 00:09:53.964 Fighting Shadows. It's a book written for those who are in men's ministry. 00:09:56.024 --> 00:10:00.904 Spent like five or six years researching some of the issues that men fight. 00:10:01.324 --> 00:10:02.804 And they're both pastors. 00:10:03.544 --> 00:10:10.624 And then wrote a book about it. So, because one of the things that I'm really 00:10:10.624 --> 00:10:17.144 excited about in 2024 is men's ministry here at Conduit. 00:10:17.444 --> 00:10:21.544 I've been thinking a lot about that and praying in it, praying through it. 00:10:22.384 --> 00:10:28.404 And I think it's stuff like that that's really going to be in books like that 00:10:28.404 --> 00:10:33.544 that will be really helpful to get some orientation around. Yeah. 00:10:34.424 --> 00:10:39.304 That sounds awesome. Yeah. So, yeah, I ordered that. I wish it was coming out sooner. 00:10:39.504 --> 00:10:43.904 Yes. I sent him a Facebook or Instagram message knowing he probably is not going 00:10:43.904 --> 00:10:47.964 to see it or respond or probably can't be like, is there any way I can get like 00:10:47.964 --> 00:10:50.024 an advanced copy or something like that? 00:10:50.084 --> 00:10:53.284 Like I will buy the PDF from you. 00:10:54.064 --> 00:10:58.684 Tell me what I can do to get an advanced copy because I want to start digesting 00:10:58.684 --> 00:10:59.684 some of it right now. now. 00:10:59.704 --> 00:11:07.064 But I guess for right now, we'll just kind of do our own thing here from a ministry 00:11:07.064 --> 00:11:11.504 perspective with men and, and that will be maybe that'll be just the right timing. 00:11:11.564 --> 00:11:16.444 Yeah, I am really excited about that, too. We just had our first men's breakfast. 00:11:18.161 --> 00:11:22.561 Last Saturday. Last Saturday. Two Saturdays ago. Wow. Feels like. 00:11:22.661 --> 00:11:24.981 The 13th, whatever that was. Yeah. Last Saturday. Yeah. 00:11:27.641 --> 00:11:31.681 So feeling really, that was a really good time. I'm encouraged and I think that's 00:11:31.681 --> 00:11:33.101 going to go in a fantastic direction. 00:11:33.321 --> 00:11:37.881 Me too. Me too. Yeah. So if you're listening and you're a man and you are in 00:11:37.881 --> 00:11:40.921 the Jamestown, New York area, or you're not and you want to show up for a man's 00:11:40.921 --> 00:11:45.981 breakfast, we meet every other Saturday morning at 8 a.m. here at the church. church. 00:11:47.861 --> 00:11:53.101 So our next one will be on the 27th, January 27th. 00:11:53.321 --> 00:11:59.581 So pop in and we'd love to have you join us. Yeah. 00:12:00.801 --> 00:12:06.001 I'm excited about that. So yeah, that's one of the things that I'm really excited about in 2024. 00:12:06.861 --> 00:12:10.121 One of the reasons 00:12:10.121 --> 00:12:12.941 reasons that I'm reading the book by Albury right now is God 00:12:12.941 --> 00:12:16.981 anti-gay is because I'm rereading some 00:12:16.981 --> 00:12:20.041 material that I have on my shelf already and 00:12:20.041 --> 00:12:24.361 picking up some newer material as well and then rereading through specifically 00:12:24.361 --> 00:12:31.861 through the specifically rereading through the New Testament with the eye or 00:12:31.861 --> 00:12:39.281 searching for looking for how like this kind of dynamic between how Jesus. 00:12:41.741 --> 00:12:50.141 Jesus interacted with different people whom he either did or didn't necessarily 00:12:50.141 --> 00:12:54.781 agree with their lifestyle or their practice of faith. 00:12:55.101 --> 00:13:01.841 Yeah. So like what was the way that Jesus interacted with those who were not 00:13:01.841 --> 00:13:03.461 expressing faith in him? Yep. 00:13:03.661 --> 00:13:08.921 And their sin was just like before everyone. Before him. Yeah. Yeah. 00:13:09.621 --> 00:13:16.321 And then the same with how did he interact with those who were expressing faith? Yeah. 00:13:17.891 --> 00:13:25.071 But we're doing so in such a way as to create hypocrisy. Yeah. 00:13:25.811 --> 00:13:31.891 And. Man, I just, I don't know. That's an interesting. I feel like he had meals with everybody. He did. 00:13:32.291 --> 00:13:35.791 Yep. There's multiple stories where he's sitting down with Pharisees. 00:13:37.111 --> 00:13:43.611 There's multiple stories where there's maybe less stories about specific incidences 00:13:43.611 --> 00:13:45.271 where he's eating with sinners, 00:13:45.271 --> 00:13:50.611 but it's mentioned many times that he eats with sinners yeah um but he does 00:13:50.611 --> 00:13:56.691 like zacchaeus and people who were not necessarily religious yeah yeah but even 00:13:56.691 --> 00:13:58.611 in times of like where he ate with. 00:14:00.671 --> 00:14:03.931 Pharisees um there's either 00:14:03.931 --> 00:14:06.931 like there's comment like there's like even just 00:14:06.931 --> 00:14:10.031 like kind of intertextual commentary about the posture 00:14:10.031 --> 00:14:12.851 of the people that he was eating with it wasn't really 00:14:12.851 --> 00:14:16.791 so much their title although we associate pharisees 00:14:16.791 --> 00:14:19.631 and sadducees with you know a negative connotation in 00:14:19.631 --> 00:14:22.731 terms of jesus ministry but it was more about their 00:14:22.731 --> 00:14:30.571 posture towards him yeah right if we were to call someone a pharisee today it's 00:14:30.571 --> 00:14:35.471 typically considered an insult yeah but it wasn't at the time that was more 00:14:35.471 --> 00:14:40.291 of a title and so right getting past kind of like whether or not they were a 00:14:40.291 --> 00:14:42.691 Pharisee or not, but their relationship to Jesus. 00:14:42.831 --> 00:14:49.311 Right, yeah, or how they just like, how they, the manner in which they came. 00:14:50.631 --> 00:14:54.291 I'm thinking, in particular, I'm thinking of John chapter 3. Yeah. 00:14:55.891 --> 00:15:00.151 Where Nicodemus, who is a Pharisee, comes to Jesus at night. 00:15:02.811 --> 00:15:10.151 At least the way that I read it and the way that I hear it is there's humility there. 00:15:10.251 --> 00:15:14.151 Yeah. I think there's fear until he comes to him at night. 00:15:14.251 --> 00:15:18.991 Yep. Yeah, there's always that question of how much emphasis do we put onto 00:15:18.991 --> 00:15:20.571 the detail of night? Yeah. 00:15:20.931 --> 00:15:27.351 The fact that it's included and not just left out does make it seem to be somewhat important. 00:15:27.531 --> 00:15:30.451 Otherwise, it wouldn't have been included. But I think that, 00:15:32.394 --> 00:15:36.214 My take on that is that Nicodemus was probably feeling the pressure from the 00:15:36.214 --> 00:15:43.234 rest of the Pharisees to align himself with their mob think against Jesus. 00:15:43.494 --> 00:15:50.774 Yeah. And so couldn't ask the questions in the open air without fear of reprisal. 00:15:50.774 --> 00:15:57.854 And so he went to Jesus at night because probably sensed in his spirit that 00:15:57.854 --> 00:16:02.314 there was something to who he was, right? 00:16:02.374 --> 00:16:08.154 And so Jesus' interaction with Nicodemus, while still like a little bit, 00:16:08.234 --> 00:16:10.774 I don't want to say harsh, but it's pretty straightforward. 00:16:11.194 --> 00:16:15.414 Yeah. Like, what do you mean I need to be born again? And he's like, 00:16:15.574 --> 00:16:18.714 you're the teacher of the Jews. You don't know these things. Yep. 00:16:22.854 --> 00:16:28.334 I still think that his, Jesus' interaction with Nicodemus is a lot different 00:16:28.334 --> 00:16:33.074 because Nicodemus comes to him in humility than it is those who come, 00:16:34.174 --> 00:16:36.054 the Pharisees that come to Jesus. 00:16:36.694 --> 00:16:41.494 And the text already clarifies, kind of like in the background of the text, 00:16:41.654 --> 00:16:44.794 they asked this to trap him. Yeah. 00:16:45.054 --> 00:16:49.554 Or Jesus knew that they were trying to set a trap for him. Yeah. 00:16:50.894 --> 00:17:01.714 So, and then part of the like reading and I'm reading all these things in order 00:17:01.714 --> 00:17:05.894 because I feel like I need both need to and want to do some writing on it, 00:17:05.914 --> 00:17:08.154 both for personal and professional reasons. 00:17:10.134 --> 00:17:14.494 But is like how, what is the. 00:17:17.271 --> 00:17:25.711 What is the most biblically informed way that Christians are, 00:17:26.751 --> 00:17:32.331 can, should be in relationship with those who, 00:17:32.571 --> 00:17:38.891 one, are professing faith in Jesus Christ, but there is no fruit of repentance 00:17:38.891 --> 00:17:43.071 or sin is like being flaunted? 00:17:44.031 --> 00:17:49.691 And second, how does our relationship with the person change when there has 00:17:49.691 --> 00:17:54.471 never been any, like, profession of faith in Jesus Christ? 00:17:54.811 --> 00:18:03.051 Yeah. You know, like, is it a wise evangelistic strategy to bludgeon them with 00:18:03.051 --> 00:18:08.291 the Bible when they have not received conviction of the Holy Spirit's presence 00:18:08.291 --> 00:18:10.431 in their life to begin with? Right. 00:18:10.731 --> 00:18:19.171 You know? know and what does the what does the like depth of relationship between 00:18:19.171 --> 00:18:22.671 me as the christian person and the other person whether they're christian or 00:18:22.671 --> 00:18:25.311 not what is the depth of that relationship. 00:18:30.271 --> 00:18:32.391 Like how does that affect, 00:18:34.391 --> 00:18:43.011 what i should shouldn't can or can't speak into their life yeah so So, um, um, 00:18:44.827 --> 00:18:50.267 But anyway, so yeah, that was a long answer to say, you know, 00:18:50.307 --> 00:18:55.287 what am I reading and what am I excited for in the new year? 00:18:55.347 --> 00:18:57.907 I am excited to maybe to hopefully write some more. 00:18:57.987 --> 00:19:03.167 Although I don't really have very specific goals in writing. 00:19:03.287 --> 00:19:08.947 So I will probably need to do that if I actually am going to sit down and put 00:19:08.947 --> 00:19:10.847 pen to the proverbial paper. 00:19:10.847 --> 00:19:16.487 But yeah i have a lot to think i i have a lot on the brain that needs to hit 00:19:16.487 --> 00:19:19.787 the paper yeah whether or not it actually does is. 00:19:21.807 --> 00:19:24.427 That time circumstantial yeah i don't know can we 00:19:24.427 --> 00:19:27.627 get it to happen so right so well do 00:19:27.627 --> 00:19:31.167 we want to dive into the topic we 00:19:31.167 --> 00:19:34.687 kind of floated before we started so um 00:19:34.687 --> 00:19:37.967 cameron you mentioned that you'd 00:19:37.967 --> 00:19:40.727 maybe seen a couple the same reel or a couple different 00:19:40.727 --> 00:19:43.387 reels a couple different different ones i found yeah a 00:19:43.387 --> 00:19:46.407 couple different things i even saw i saw one 00:19:46.407 --> 00:19:52.427 uh it was just a little strange um but you know these different because we're 00:19:52.427 --> 00:19:55.827 on social media and so it's one way of seeing what people were kind of talking 00:19:55.827 --> 00:20:05.007 about in larger larger church but you saw a couple of you know videos talking about this question of, 00:20:05.127 --> 00:20:07.647 can a believer, 00:20:07.907 --> 00:20:11.907 can a Christian be possessed by a demon? 00:20:12.547 --> 00:20:18.087 Yeah. I don't know if I just hit a weird stream of the algorithms or what, 00:20:18.207 --> 00:20:24.687 but it seems like over the last few days, I've seen a few of these where it 00:20:24.687 --> 00:20:31.147 was either a pastor or someone in in a fake podcast studio talking like they're looking at someone, 00:20:31.187 --> 00:20:33.747 but you know, they're not talking about, 00:20:34.527 --> 00:20:36.067 you know, what. 00:20:37.679 --> 00:20:41.879 Happens when a believer is possessed by 00:20:41.879 --> 00:20:53.899 a demon and i i'll say first off i'm not an expert in demon possession sure 00:20:53.899 --> 00:20:59.219 although i'm also going to say that i think maybe i am. 00:21:01.879 --> 00:21:07.779 Um and i'm also going to say like i i do believe that demon demons exist yeah 00:21:07.779 --> 00:21:09.799 i do believe that people are possessed 00:21:09.799 --> 00:21:15.759 by demons i have seen it and experienced it in in ministry before, 00:21:17.419 --> 00:21:24.059 um not a lot but enough to say like it's a thing it's a thing and i believe 00:21:24.059 --> 00:21:32.459 it um and the reason i say you know maybe i am a expert is not necessarily because i, 00:21:33.799 --> 00:21:36.879 um you know had a previous life as 00:21:36.879 --> 00:21:40.099 an exorcist in the catholic church or anything 00:21:40.099 --> 00:21:42.799 like that but because i you know 00:21:42.799 --> 00:21:46.239 i think that the i think that the primary 00:21:46.239 --> 00:21:50.419 textbook for um possession 00:21:50.419 --> 00:21:56.839 possession and like guidance in evil spirits is the scripture yeah i don't believe 00:21:56.839 --> 00:22:08.299 it's our experience i don't believe it's the culture i don't believe it's any um type of like. 00:22:10.919 --> 00:22:14.659 Um neo-charismatic yeah movement 00:22:14.659 --> 00:22:17.739 new apostolic movement type of like special revelation 00:22:17.739 --> 00:22:21.179 right on we demon possession 00:22:21.179 --> 00:22:24.479 yeah no like there's not a you know 00:22:24.479 --> 00:22:27.459 i'm pretty wary of if you 00:22:27.459 --> 00:22:30.419 were to find like a book and you're like this is the book that knows 00:22:30.419 --> 00:22:33.319 everything about like demon possession exorcism and 00:22:33.319 --> 00:22:36.659 demonic spiritual warfare and stuff like that and 00:22:36.659 --> 00:22:39.519 you're holding a book other than the bible i'm gonna 00:22:39.519 --> 00:22:42.679 take that with whole lots of salt yeah 00:22:42.679 --> 00:22:45.859 so much salt that it'd be unhealthy um um yeah the 00:22:45.859 --> 00:22:49.419 whole plow truck full of salt on that one yeah yeah um 00:22:49.419 --> 00:22:52.799 and like we were even just laughing um 00:22:52.799 --> 00:22:55.599 because we saw i shared a video with 00:22:55.599 --> 00:23:00.079 you that was like i don't know the i don't know the preacher don't know the 00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:06.699 context clip obviously but it someone preaching saying something along the lines 00:23:06.699 --> 00:23:12.059 of and i asked the demon and the demon and he was using what the demon's response 00:23:12.059 --> 00:23:15.079 as As kind of his... Own affirmation. 00:23:15.219 --> 00:23:21.339 Yeah, as his own affirmation of the exegesis of the scripture he was giving. Yeah. And... 00:23:22.628 --> 00:23:26.568 That'd be wonky in my book. Yeah, red flag. Red flag. 00:23:27.048 --> 00:23:33.428 Like, I don't, you know, I don't, you know, I wouldn't, that doesn't add any 00:23:33.428 --> 00:23:38.708 credence that the demon agreed with what was literally just in the Bible verse. 00:23:38.908 --> 00:23:43.828 I would rather you just read the Bible verse and not mention your potential 00:23:43.828 --> 00:23:45.288 conversation with a demon. 00:23:46.528 --> 00:23:51.368 Yeah, I mean, even Jesus really only asked a demon questions twice. 00:23:51.548 --> 00:23:55.028 Yes. And there were two types of questions. It was, what is your name? Uh-huh. 00:23:56.368 --> 00:24:00.368 And the other question, not even really Jesus asked, but we are, 00:24:00.588 --> 00:24:05.788 that we, like, that there's allusions to being able to ask in scripture is, 00:24:05.888 --> 00:24:08.708 you know, to essentially inquire 00:24:08.708 --> 00:24:13.508 with the evil spirit if they confess the name of Jesus Christ as Lord. 00:24:13.768 --> 00:24:17.368 Right. Or not. Yes. Right. Those are kind of like two questions. What is your name? 00:24:17.808 --> 00:24:23.348 Do you confess Jesus as Lord? Yeah. Yeah. I would not ask them for their interpretation 00:24:23.348 --> 00:24:26.068 of the Bible. Yeah. Are my sermon notes correct? Yeah. 00:24:27.488 --> 00:24:32.868 So, you know, when you start getting into things like that, people having... 00:24:33.388 --> 00:24:37.948 I would not have a conversation. If I had the opportunity to have a conversation 00:24:37.948 --> 00:24:40.208 with a demon, I would say, no, thank you. 00:24:40.208 --> 00:24:47.608 Because I don't really think I want to open the can of worms of dealing with 00:24:47.608 --> 00:24:54.228 somebody or something that is primarily meant to lie and be deceptive. 00:24:54.568 --> 00:25:02.028 Yeah. I mean, the Word of God says that lying is the native tongue of our enemy. 00:25:02.988 --> 00:25:06.568 He can only speak in lies and deception. 00:25:06.568 --> 00:25:09.968 Yeah so yeah and granted to say like i agreed generally 00:25:09.968 --> 00:25:13.348 with the point the preacher was making um 00:25:13.348 --> 00:25:16.088 i just thought that he was him referencing a 00:25:16.088 --> 00:25:19.628 demon as having agreed with what he's saying is really 00:25:19.628 --> 00:25:22.488 weird and odd and very odd 00:25:22.488 --> 00:25:28.328 but anyway suffice it to say there's this there has been this idea and yes several 00:25:28.328 --> 00:25:34.408 of these things that you know okay i am a believer of jesus christ And we're 00:25:34.408 --> 00:25:40.568 assuming here that my conversion from death to life is legitimate, 00:25:40.828 --> 00:25:48.008 that I repented of my sin, I have confessed Him before the Lord, 00:25:48.128 --> 00:25:51.588 I have received and asked for His forgiveness, I have received the righteousness 00:25:51.588 --> 00:25:55.808 of Jesus Christ via my faith in Him, 00:25:55.988 --> 00:25:57.768 I have been sealed. 00:25:59.033 --> 00:26:04.593 With the Holy Spirit and the spirit of the Holy Spirit in me is the deposit 00:26:04.593 --> 00:26:09.073 guaranteeing my inheritance until the final redemption. Yeah. Right. 00:26:09.993 --> 00:26:12.773 That's the assumption when I say I'm a Christian, right? Yeah. 00:26:12.793 --> 00:26:15.173 Is that all those things are true. 00:26:15.293 --> 00:26:20.173 But there is also a demon inside of me. I am possessed. 00:26:20.953 --> 00:26:22.653 Yeah. By a demon, meaning that 00:26:22.653 --> 00:26:29.893 there is, I am enslaved to the presence of evil outside of my control. 00:26:30.433 --> 00:26:35.193 Yeah. Outside of my control. Well, because that's what we, I guess, 00:26:35.253 --> 00:26:39.413 I'm thinking like that is a little bit of the hallmark of like, 00:26:39.493 --> 00:26:42.433 at least even from like the biblical examples, right? 00:26:42.533 --> 00:26:48.773 We think about like the slave that was tossing themselves into the fire. Yeah. 00:26:49.213 --> 00:26:54.533 And things like that. The Garrisonian demoniac was chained outside of the city. 00:26:55.213 --> 00:27:02.553 Demonic possession seems to have one of the things. 00:27:02.653 --> 00:27:04.973 I think there's a couple different other things too. 00:27:05.093 --> 00:27:11.393 But there seems to be some sort of lack of control to some extent of oneself. 00:27:11.393 --> 00:27:20.513 So some element of not having full autonomy of one's behavior at all times, 00:27:20.693 --> 00:27:23.113 necessarily, to some degree. 00:27:24.249 --> 00:27:29.069 Seems to be a thing. And so if you're saying that you're demonically possessed. 00:27:31.529 --> 00:27:37.809 You're, you know, like there's something involuntary even maybe happening. 00:27:38.189 --> 00:27:42.449 Or we say, you know, like it's kind of like there's a... 00:27:43.349 --> 00:27:47.949 Spatial terms is helpful, both helpful and unhelpful, right? 00:27:48.029 --> 00:27:50.289 Because we would say, look, there's a demon in them. 00:27:51.189 --> 00:27:53.729 Well, I don't know if that's actually metaphysically correct. 00:27:54.249 --> 00:28:00.209 But it's the best way we know, too, how to, like, functionally conceptualize it. 00:28:00.649 --> 00:28:07.769 They're not just being a demon near them or affecting their situation or whispering 00:28:07.769 --> 00:28:10.549 to them or doing something, you know, to them. 00:28:10.949 --> 00:28:16.369 The demon is somehow inside of them in all the connotations that that requires. 00:28:17.009 --> 00:28:19.709 Which is why we have, like, let's just say that, like, 00:28:19.769 --> 00:28:24.369 as the metaphysical example, yeah like the demon actually possesses the inside 00:28:24.369 --> 00:28:32.209 of your being yeah right well as a person who has faith in jesus christ and 00:28:32.209 --> 00:28:35.909 has been filled with and sealed by the holy spirit all right that, 00:28:36.789 --> 00:28:41.589 we're you're making then the affirmation that this the holy spirit is in me 00:28:41.589 --> 00:28:46.349 right which we believe right because it's in the scripture i believe that yes 00:28:46.349 --> 00:28:49.169 i believe that the holy spirit is in me. 00:28:49.229 --> 00:28:56.269 So then the question then becomes, can I simultaneously be filled to the fullness 00:28:56.269 --> 00:29:02.369 of the measure of God with the Holy Spirit and also be filled with. 00:29:04.066 --> 00:29:08.686 Um a demon and my answer 00:29:08.686 --> 00:29:12.386 to that is no you cannot yeah you 00:29:12.386 --> 00:29:15.546 you you cannot right that in the in 00:29:15.546 --> 00:29:18.626 the presence of ineffable light of 00:29:18.626 --> 00:29:21.346 holiness there can be no darkness all right so 00:29:21.346 --> 00:29:24.446 if i am filled with the holy spirit there 00:29:24.446 --> 00:29:27.766 is no metaphysical spiritual 00:29:27.766 --> 00:29:30.386 actual room for the presence 00:29:30.386 --> 00:29:33.226 of yeah darkness the presence of 00:29:33.226 --> 00:29:36.446 evil the presence of a demon right so that 00:29:36.446 --> 00:29:41.106 would be kind of like the most classic my most classic answer to that right 00:29:41.106 --> 00:29:47.566 is that no that you know you're not possessed by a demon but i do think that 00:29:47.566 --> 00:29:53.046 there is then there there becomes the question is all right well i have two 00:29:53.046 --> 00:29:55.566 questions that i want to throw out here okay, 00:29:57.846 --> 00:30:02.066 Do demons possess other things? Okay. 00:30:03.326 --> 00:30:10.406 Non-living. Non-living. This house plant. Right. Whatever. Right. The house. Yeah. Right. 00:30:13.346 --> 00:30:17.826 Yeah, the house. You know, whatever the case may be. Yeah. All right. 00:30:18.846 --> 00:30:21.206 My car won't start on cold days. I must have a demon. 00:30:22.646 --> 00:30:26.506 I'm not saying that mockingly. i'm just i'm i'm just also saying that like there 00:30:26.506 --> 00:30:29.146 i just there tends to be this, 00:30:31.506 --> 00:30:34.966 people tend to run into extremes yes either 00:30:34.966 --> 00:30:38.046 either they don't give the demonic they 00:30:38.046 --> 00:30:41.566 don't give demonic activity any thought whatsoever which 00:30:41.566 --> 00:30:44.586 i think is wrong yeah you know 00:30:44.586 --> 00:30:47.646 or there's a demon behind every corner 00:30:47.646 --> 00:30:51.186 and every bush and every doorway and like um 00:30:51.186 --> 00:30:54.366 you know we're just constantly running the gauntlet of demons and everything 00:30:54.366 --> 00:30:58.406 that we do and i drop my toothbrush on the bathroom floor oh demon made me do 00:30:58.406 --> 00:31:06.406 it and like it's a demon of toothbrush dropping and um you know like it's it's 00:31:06.406 --> 00:31:10.326 laughable but it's not at the same time because there's literally, 00:31:10.886 --> 00:31:15.146 people out there who'd be like oh it's the demon of anxiety it's the demon of 00:31:15.146 --> 00:31:18.466 depression it's the demon of toothbrush dropping it's the demon of sickness 00:31:18.466 --> 00:31:21.526 it's the demon of like you know like Guys, 00:31:21.726 --> 00:31:26.106 really, this is just Cameron's pitch for a horror movie. Can we not? Can we not? 00:31:29.586 --> 00:31:32.746 So one, can demons... 00:31:34.404 --> 00:31:42.444 Be in non like living spaces kind of okay however the question second question second question, 00:31:43.084 --> 00:31:46.624 what is the difference between demonic possession 00:31:46.624 --> 00:31:50.884 and demonic oppression you 00:31:50.884 --> 00:31:55.144 knew that one was coming because that's a big yeah so how 00:31:55.144 --> 00:31:57.964 do you what do you what are your thoughts i think you can 00:31:57.964 --> 00:32:01.324 probably tell by the snarkiness of the way in which i went about the demon of 00:32:01.324 --> 00:32:05.744 toothbrush brush dropping what i think about all of that but i'm interested 00:32:05.744 --> 00:32:09.204 to have at least have the conversation yeah well let's talk about that one first 00:32:09.204 --> 00:32:15.524 um yes i agree that also like um. 00:32:16.224 --> 00:32:25.884 Like there is this tendency to um to call everything kind of a demon and there is this like Like, 00:32:25.884 --> 00:32:33.404 I want to be careful and I want to be gentle here, 00:32:33.544 --> 00:32:36.824 but I also want to be really realistic with people. 00:32:36.964 --> 00:32:43.424 When we read the Bible, the Bible covers a significant swath of God's interaction 00:32:43.424 --> 00:32:49.664 with humanity, and it covers, you know, both big and small things, 00:32:49.844 --> 00:32:53.164 but they're all part of the story, right? 00:32:53.224 --> 00:32:55.564 They're all part of, like, the major story of God. 00:32:55.764 --> 00:33:02.124 And so I think there is a tendency when we're reading about the story of Moses 00:33:02.124 --> 00:33:06.564 or of David or of anyone who made it into the Bible, 00:33:06.724 --> 00:33:14.524 and then we look at our life to make some sort of one-to-one equation and say, well, 00:33:14.724 --> 00:33:19.324 my life surely will be at least as dramatic as Paul's life was. 00:33:20.904 --> 00:33:24.104 And so we see the level 00:33:24.104 --> 00:33:28.244 of dramatic supernatural spiritual 00:33:28.244 --> 00:33:31.364 miraculous things that happen 00:33:31.364 --> 00:33:34.584 in their lives and we make 00:33:34.584 --> 00:33:40.284 the assumption that that must be the frequency and degree to which it happens 00:33:40.284 --> 00:33:48.084 in all people's lives and i don't think that that is necessarily a wise conclusion 00:33:48.084 --> 00:33:51.864 to draw and so by that I mean. 00:33:53.524 --> 00:34:00.504 You're not that important and I'm not that important and like not to say that 00:34:00.504 --> 00:34:07.924 God is not the God of like unimportant people and things I think that's a really big truth but, 00:34:08.784 --> 00:34:15.464 just simply to say that like I'm not Moses I'm not King David I'm not Paul and 00:34:15.464 --> 00:34:18.484 for me to expect to experience the the, 00:34:19.784 --> 00:34:27.484 dramatic, divine, and spiritual, like, events that I see portrayed in the Bible, 00:34:28.804 --> 00:34:32.884 in condensed story format to see them be happening on a daily, 00:34:32.964 --> 00:34:38.124 weekly, monthly, yearly basis in my life is, I think, a little bit of a, 00:34:38.244 --> 00:34:43.744 maybe an unfair stretch to put an expectation on ourselves. 00:34:44.044 --> 00:34:48.784 So, but again, like what I just said there could be taken to that other extreme of saying, 00:34:48.864 --> 00:34:51.824 well, nothing there's no you know not giving the spiritual 00:34:51.824 --> 00:34:54.664 realm it's due because we do have things 00:34:54.664 --> 00:34:57.964 about like where paul says our um we wage 00:34:57.964 --> 00:35:02.584 not against physical enemies but against uh princes and principalities and king 00:35:02.584 --> 00:35:07.584 of the air and so um you know like that's his exhortation to the church and 00:35:07.584 --> 00:35:15.124 to us and to us now so i don't want to say that that's not a thing but i do think that um. 00:35:16.844 --> 00:35:21.484 Sometimes we're just confronting ordinary evil, if there's such a theological 00:35:21.484 --> 00:35:29.364 category for that, or human evil and brokenness, and not necessarily demonic evil and brokenness. 00:35:31.464 --> 00:35:38.284 Yeah, that'd be kind of how I – because, you know, like –, 00:35:39.860 --> 00:35:43.480 I don't know. That just tends to be my kind of thing. 00:35:43.560 --> 00:35:49.680 Like a little bit of Occam's razor to, you know, just like, what is the simplest 00:35:49.680 --> 00:35:51.640 conclusion I can make here? 00:35:52.060 --> 00:35:56.240 Well, the simplest conclusion I could make is that I dropped my toothbrush because 00:35:56.240 --> 00:36:03.300 I'm clumsy sometimes or that, you know, but that's just the enemy trying to 00:36:03.300 --> 00:36:05.420 make you believe that he's not really real. 00:36:05.560 --> 00:36:10.900 And there he, he he's there 00:36:10.900 --> 00:36:14.160 i just don't even really want to give him that much credit um 00:36:14.160 --> 00:36:17.260 i just yeah i you know i you 00:36:17.260 --> 00:36:20.320 know i i do think that is unhealthy i 00:36:20.320 --> 00:36:23.200 will like because you did mention like you know there's a 00:36:23.200 --> 00:36:26.220 spirit of depression spirit of anxiety spirit of whatever 00:36:26.220 --> 00:36:28.880 mental health thing a spirit of 00:36:28.880 --> 00:36:32.280 addiction i'm very 00:36:32.280 --> 00:36:35.400 very very uncomfortable with 00:36:35.400 --> 00:36:38.740 leveraging and using those types of terms yeah 00:36:38.740 --> 00:36:41.760 and why are we uncomfortable with that um because 00:36:41.760 --> 00:36:44.820 a lot of times um it's not a spirit 00:36:44.820 --> 00:36:48.200 and sometimes what happens is 00:36:48.200 --> 00:36:52.220 is by by 00:36:52.220 --> 00:36:55.260 by making a diagnosis to say 00:36:55.260 --> 00:36:59.020 that like you've got a spirit of mental unhealth in 00:36:59.020 --> 00:37:01.880 this degree that means you 00:37:01.880 --> 00:37:05.320 should pray about it or you should go you know whatever spiritual 00:37:05.320 --> 00:37:13.120 answer we should give and then you should not seek any other form of help intervention 00:37:13.120 --> 00:37:25.200 or health and what that does is that leave often will leave people into a place of like like of bad, 00:37:25.240 --> 00:37:31.000 bad things happening and things really kind of like being, coming undone. 00:37:31.920 --> 00:37:38.320 You know, I know of an individual who felt like, you know, that was like a thing. 00:37:39.220 --> 00:37:42.660 Anyways, it's just not helpful, not helpful generally. 00:37:43.160 --> 00:37:50.440 And I would say even as the ground upon which that is built is the reality that 00:37:50.440 --> 00:37:55.860 that when we see Jesus casting out and addressing demons in Scripture, 00:37:56.120 --> 00:38:02.900 he's not addressing them according to the infirmity that they bring upon a person. Right. 00:38:03.280 --> 00:38:10.860 So he's not categorizing demons of addiction, demons of anxiety, demons of depression. 00:38:11.400 --> 00:38:14.120 Did we see any? I'm trying to think. 00:38:14.160 --> 00:38:20.760 Were there any specific exorcisms in Scripture that are tied to an infirmity? Thank you. 00:38:23.152 --> 00:38:30.192 There's like kind of the, shoot, you just said it, the demoniac that was like. 00:38:30.192 --> 00:38:31.592 The garrisonian. No, but he's. 00:38:31.812 --> 00:38:34.372 He's not necessarily debilitated. 00:38:34.672 --> 00:38:41.932 No, he was chained up because the, I'm sure he was, I'm sure it made him appear 00:38:41.932 --> 00:38:45.032 to be mentally ill. Sure. Because he would cut himself. 00:38:45.432 --> 00:38:49.452 Yeah. Right? And was chained. No one could control him is what the scripture says. Right. 00:38:49.612 --> 00:38:52.492 He was chained up outside. side but it wasn't like jesus went 00:38:52.492 --> 00:38:56.092 up to him like you their spirit of insanity 00:38:56.092 --> 00:38:59.312 right come out from him you know 00:38:59.312 --> 00:39:02.332 um any more than we 00:39:02.332 --> 00:39:06.412 see like jesus making comment 00:39:06.412 --> 00:39:09.472 about like oh there's um this 00:39:09.472 --> 00:39:12.872 individual demon and then there's this demon 00:39:12.872 --> 00:39:16.632 that's over this city and then there's this this bigger demon that's over this 00:39:16.632 --> 00:39:25.572 region as if there's like a defined chain of command right in scripture um that 00:39:25.572 --> 00:39:30.832 we can like oh we need to pray against the demon of this city right like, 00:39:31.492 --> 00:39:42.032 yeah i don't i just i i think that we we so yearn for like in some cases we so yearn for. 00:39:46.672 --> 00:39:51.552 Or like, I don't know, I put it in the category of being like a spiritual busybody. 00:39:53.212 --> 00:39:58.052 Like, don't just, what is the point of making stuff up? 00:39:58.392 --> 00:40:06.512 Like, what's the point of creating like huge systematic scaffolding of spiritual 00:40:06.512 --> 00:40:09.912 life when it's just not there? 00:40:09.912 --> 00:40:15.592 Can't we just say it's really clear in Scripture, both in Jesus' words, 00:40:15.812 --> 00:40:22.552 in Paul's words, in John's words, in the Revelation, 00:40:22.832 --> 00:40:31.192 that there is a extraordinary spiritual battle that is being waged around us even now. 00:40:31.192 --> 00:40:38.752 We see Jesus confront it face-to-face in the Gospels, and he encourages his 00:40:38.752 --> 00:40:40.372 disciples to do the same. 00:40:41.832 --> 00:40:46.832 We see Paul face it a little bit in the book of Acts. 00:40:48.172 --> 00:40:55.232 We see the presence of evil in various symbolic forms in Revelation. 00:40:55.552 --> 00:41:05.732 But we're not given complex explanations. explanations of you need to say this 00:41:05.732 --> 00:41:08.772 to a demon and then this to a demon and then this to a demon and there's a demon 00:41:08.772 --> 00:41:12.272 of this and there's a demon of that and there's a demon over these regions and 00:41:12.272 --> 00:41:13.552 there's a demon over this region. 00:41:13.872 --> 00:41:18.432 And I just kind of scratch my head with like, why do we do this? 00:41:19.052 --> 00:41:20.552 Why is this? 00:41:22.135 --> 00:41:27.735 Why are we obsessed with this? I think it, like, I don't know. 00:41:27.775 --> 00:41:30.175 I think there's a little bit of a power thing to it. 00:41:31.115 --> 00:41:35.175 Because, like, we're, you know, we're command, like, we're given all authority 00:41:35.175 --> 00:41:36.955 in heaven and on earth, you know? 00:41:36.995 --> 00:41:42.155 And so, like, there's also a little bit of simplicity to it, right? 00:41:44.035 --> 00:41:48.955 Because, and by all means, don't mishear me to say that there is no spiritual 00:41:48.955 --> 00:41:51.515 component to mental illness. 00:41:52.135 --> 00:41:55.395 Um or that there you know couldn't potentially 00:41:55.395 --> 00:41:58.995 be something going on there but in my 00:41:58.995 --> 00:42:01.915 experience mental my own experience it 00:42:01.915 --> 00:42:04.635 with mental illness there are parts of it 00:42:04.635 --> 00:42:07.395 that maybe we'll get to in this episode and i'll talk about 00:42:07.395 --> 00:42:10.435 maybe um that i think definitely had 00:42:10.435 --> 00:42:14.775 some demonic influence and some places where it was kind of touching it but 00:42:14.775 --> 00:42:20.435 then also a significant portion of my My mental health journey has not had much 00:42:20.435 --> 00:42:28.755 to do with demons and has had more to do with my own brokenness and my own just like sin, 00:42:28.795 --> 00:42:33.215 the way in which sin has uniquely touched my life, my heart, my soul, and my mind. 00:42:33.375 --> 00:42:39.255 And working with God to try and restore that. 00:42:39.675 --> 00:42:43.075 And that doesn't have to do, like, demon didn't do that to me. 00:42:43.395 --> 00:42:46.355 The world did it. you know i 00:42:46.355 --> 00:42:49.135 don't it doesn't have to be that but i do 00:42:49.135 --> 00:42:52.415 think that it it's overly it's really 00:42:52.415 --> 00:42:55.335 comforting to think that well i just need to pray hard enough 00:42:55.335 --> 00:42:58.915 and i could make this problem go away and it wouldn't 00:42:58.915 --> 00:43:02.115 require me doing really difficult work for years 00:43:02.115 --> 00:43:05.295 to see health in my 00:43:05.295 --> 00:43:08.195 heart-minded in spirit yeah okay so 00:43:08.195 --> 00:43:11.775 let's talk then about demonic oppression 00:43:11.775 --> 00:43:14.955 yeah um which is 00:43:14.955 --> 00:43:19.255 i think for me it feels like a broad term but that's okay i'm comfortable with 00:43:19.255 --> 00:43:28.695 the term yeah it's fine yeah um and talk a little bit about how we might anticipate 00:43:28.695 --> 00:43:34.455 seeing that kind of manifested Invested in life, 00:43:34.635 --> 00:43:39.255 the world and in the life of a believer. Yeah. 00:43:40.035 --> 00:43:45.415 I think that's a, you know, again, the broadness of it. 00:43:45.935 --> 00:43:50.595 That's partly the helpfulness of it is that it's so broad because it can be 00:43:50.595 --> 00:43:59.375 used to describe things that seem to not be easily explained otherwise. 00:43:59.375 --> 00:44:04.215 Otherwise or seem to lend themselves to being like the enemy in some, 00:44:04.255 --> 00:44:09.855 some form, um, but are not possession, um. 00:44:10.981 --> 00:44:16.481 So it's not the controlling, the being on the inside of an individual. 00:44:17.021 --> 00:44:23.141 Yeah, I think. But it's an acting towards the person or in the environment or something. 00:44:23.361 --> 00:44:30.721 Yeah, or like even just flat. I mean, I think like very simply is that there 00:44:30.721 --> 00:44:37.901 are times in life where I have certainly experienced walking into a place, 00:44:38.001 --> 00:44:44.021 being in a room, being around a person or another person or just being by myself 00:44:44.021 --> 00:44:48.201 and getting a very distinct. 00:44:49.861 --> 00:45:00.501 Awareness of the presence of evil yeah like darkness yes um and not a kind of benign, 00:45:01.601 --> 00:45:07.481 type of evil but like the evil that i would describe as being demonic right 00:45:07.481 --> 00:45:18.481 Like there is the oppressive presence of darkness that seeks to stir up fear in that moment, 00:45:18.641 --> 00:45:25.121 stir up confusion or chaos to make what the Lord wants to be clear, 00:45:25.301 --> 00:45:27.001 very confusing. 00:45:27.001 --> 00:45:37.041 Yeah um to um to stir up fear that leads people to do things that they normally wouldn't, 00:45:37.861 --> 00:45:44.801 wouldn't do or don't want to do christians and non-christians alike um and. 00:45:46.341 --> 00:45:58.201 And so like there is for sure a, this reality of the, when I say demonic oppression, 00:45:58.461 --> 00:46:07.801 what I mean is like the, the presence of the demonic in life. 00:46:07.981 --> 00:46:12.161 Yes. Around people in places. 00:46:12.161 --> 00:46:18.841 Places i still don't know exactly what i think or believe about like demons 00:46:18.841 --> 00:46:20.541 being attached to places, 00:46:21.961 --> 00:46:25.221 you know i don't know yeah it's not 00:46:25.221 --> 00:46:28.281 it doesn't it's not clear in scripture for 00:46:28.281 --> 00:46:31.081 me no not necessarily but there are 00:46:31.081 --> 00:46:34.081 also i've also had experiences where 00:46:34.081 --> 00:46:39.281 it's like every time i walk into a place i'm like yeah places 00:46:39.281 --> 00:46:42.321 definitely like like okay lord 00:46:42.321 --> 00:46:46.161 i hear you yeah and i like i sense 00:46:46.161 --> 00:46:51.801 it yes um i i don't know i don't know if it's just that places carry like man 00:46:51.801 --> 00:46:57.181 this song's so woo woo um and it's not biblical so if don't necessarily take 00:46:57.181 --> 00:47:02.241 this as like but the way it feels like is sometimes you you can walk into a 00:47:02.241 --> 00:47:05.701 place and it is a little bit like. 00:47:08.344 --> 00:47:11.804 You know, after like a loud gunshot or something in close proximity that's really 00:47:11.804 --> 00:47:13.604 loud and there's just that ringing, 00:47:13.844 --> 00:47:23.344 it's like walking into a place and like hearing the ringing or the echo of what was there. 00:47:23.784 --> 00:47:26.584 And it's not always clear to me 00:47:26.584 --> 00:47:30.064 when I've experienced that if if 00:47:30.064 --> 00:47:32.944 that is a like something is 00:47:32.944 --> 00:47:36.044 still here or if just something was 00:47:36.044 --> 00:47:39.144 here or something happened here 00:47:39.144 --> 00:47:45.444 at some point and so and i've had that experience sometimes knowing sometimes 00:47:45.444 --> 00:47:52.544 very much not knowing but knowing that this ain't not not vibing with this um 00:47:52.544 --> 00:47:56.844 and so and so what what What I think is that I think that there, 00:47:57.044 --> 00:48:09.524 when we have Christians who are talking about what they're perceiving as like the strong, like. 00:48:11.864 --> 00:48:14.864 Demonic work in their life i think they're 00:48:14.864 --> 00:48:18.544 talking about the the like 00:48:18.544 --> 00:48:21.204 demonic oppression yeah you know like 00:48:21.204 --> 00:48:25.064 the the presence of evil around them stirring 00:48:25.064 --> 00:48:28.824 up fear and confusion and yeah i'm 00:48:28.824 --> 00:48:32.984 trying to conceal truth yep and when 00:48:32.984 --> 00:48:35.864 when we're fearful and when we're confused confused 00:48:35.864 --> 00:48:39.804 and when the the truth is cloudy we 00:48:39.804 --> 00:48:42.944 do end up doing things and making decisions that 00:48:42.944 --> 00:48:46.304 are out of character for the life of christ and so 00:48:46.304 --> 00:48:49.924 we may think that like oh i didn't have a 00:48:49.924 --> 00:48:54.104 choice i must be possessed and 00:48:54.104 --> 00:48:57.884 i just i don't believe that yeah um because i 00:48:57.884 --> 00:49:01.364 think that in in moments of demonic oppression there 00:49:01.364 --> 00:49:04.624 are ways to bring clarity yeah there are 00:49:04.624 --> 00:49:09.664 ways to dispel fear yeah and that there are there are ways to have the truth 00:49:09.664 --> 00:49:22.644 of god elevated to the point where darkness flees at the presence of light yeah right so um Um. 00:49:23.544 --> 00:49:27.404 Uh, so that's kind of where I stand. 00:49:27.464 --> 00:49:29.424 Like I said, I've, I'm not, I'm 00:49:29.424 --> 00:49:36.084 not sure where I stand on like the demonic presence in physical spaces. 00:49:36.104 --> 00:49:42.164 Although I, based on my experience, I would lean towards a, yeah, 00:49:42.224 --> 00:49:48.584 I think that happens, but I, I can't say I, I would not hold very tightly onto 00:49:48.584 --> 00:49:50.364 that because it's not clear in scripture. 00:49:50.544 --> 00:49:58.264 Yeah. I have had experience with individuals, people who are demonically, 00:49:58.344 --> 00:50:03.244 not just oppressed, that happens a lot, but possessed, 00:50:03.544 --> 00:50:13.844 like voice changing, body going into like spastic convulsions, even like... 00:50:15.096 --> 00:50:24.316 Call it woo or call it not the smell of their breath changing like being very very vividly, 00:50:25.316 --> 00:50:32.856 controlled by something other than themselves but also still having a little bit of agency, 00:50:33.656 --> 00:50:37.076 yeah at the same time yeah well because uh 00:50:37.076 --> 00:50:40.596 there's new testament 00:50:40.596 --> 00:50:43.536 was it paul they were mad at him because they cast out 00:50:43.536 --> 00:50:46.996 a demon from someone who was telling the future or 00:50:46.996 --> 00:50:50.996 fortune teller yep right you know so not not 00:50:50.996 --> 00:50:58.436 seemingly possessed like the the demoniac uh but seems seeming to be able to 00:50:58.436 --> 00:51:06.296 function in some capacity um with some level of volition um right that gets 00:51:06.296 --> 00:51:08.976 really fuzzy yeah and And what, 00:51:09.076 --> 00:51:15.196 what I, what I experienced in the, the one most significant, 00:51:15.216 --> 00:51:17.276 and this is when I was at conduit North. 00:51:20.196 --> 00:51:25.096 What, cause I won't tell this to people because I think it's important for them to hear it. 00:51:25.356 --> 00:51:29.796 If they haven't experienced that, there can be a lot of fear that can come with 00:51:29.796 --> 00:51:33.876 like the, Oh my gosh, I hope I never see or encounter someone who is possessed. 00:51:33.896 --> 00:51:39.176 I will be so scared. and i will tell you there's a part of me that thought that 00:51:39.176 --> 00:51:45.356 a little bit yeah um like oh i'm sure that that was really scary or really frightening 00:51:45.356 --> 00:51:47.976 and i want to say that like, 00:51:48.656 --> 00:51:52.356 there's a lot of things that i remember about that day and i remember about that experience, 00:51:53.696 --> 00:51:59.796 um one thing that i remember very very very distinctly is just a tremendous 00:51:59.796 --> 00:52:07.316 sense of peace peace, a tremendous sense of like, I am not afraid at all. 00:52:08.996 --> 00:52:13.536 Like I am not, there is nothing in me that is afraid in this moment. 00:52:15.132 --> 00:52:27.032 Um, um, because even demons know the name of Jesus and the power that it holds. 00:52:27.132 --> 00:52:40.772 All right. And they, they cannot, they cannot stir up fear when there is no place to, 00:52:40.812 --> 00:52:45.252 like, there's no foundation to put your foot. Yeah. Right. right? A fear. 00:52:45.372 --> 00:52:52.092 There is no fear because in this moment, it's not I who am showing up. 00:52:52.132 --> 00:52:59.972 It is the spirit of the living God, Jesus Christ in me who is speaking here 00:52:59.972 --> 00:53:03.832 to this demon, not me, right? 00:53:03.932 --> 00:53:06.352 There's nothing power. Demons are not afraid of us. 00:53:06.952 --> 00:53:12.012 They're not afraid of me, right? They're afraid of Christ in me, the hope of glory. 00:53:14.252 --> 00:53:20.972 And so it was like there was no fear. 00:53:21.772 --> 00:53:31.312 There was no, I still see the man fairly regularly here in Jamestown and don't 00:53:31.312 --> 00:53:32.592 know if he's gotten freedom or not. 00:53:33.392 --> 00:53:41.172 When I say that there's still some agency, even in the midst of their possession, 00:53:41.632 --> 00:53:50.512 it was he did not want to be free from the possession of the demon at that point. 00:53:50.612 --> 00:54:00.032 He stopped us from praying, did not want us to pray any longer over him. 00:54:02.592 --> 00:54:07.252 Um which uh is a i mean that's a whole another reality we could go into but 00:54:07.252 --> 00:54:14.852 um yeah so i just i think that it's important that we have a conversation like this because, 00:54:15.532 --> 00:54:19.312 i don't i think more 00:54:19.312 --> 00:54:23.732 than just sharing our opinion on um 00:54:23.732 --> 00:54:26.592 spiritual warfare or the demonic or 00:54:26.592 --> 00:54:29.632 anything like that i think is the encouragement to 00:54:29.632 --> 00:54:33.332 let the bible say what 00:54:33.332 --> 00:54:36.652 the bible says without feeling the 00:54:36.652 --> 00:54:44.712 pressure to create a really complex system on top of it so that it reads more 00:54:44.712 --> 00:54:50.792 like a hollywood movie yeah than it does just what the word yep says And kind 00:54:50.792 --> 00:54:56.232 of let the fact that we don't know be okay a little bit. 00:54:56.392 --> 00:55:01.992 You know, maybe this will upset people, maybe it won't. 00:55:03.432 --> 00:55:05.172 But I think about like... 00:55:06.698 --> 00:55:09.958 As you were kind of talking, and I was kind of thinking about how this plays 00:55:09.958 --> 00:55:14.678 out in routine church and spiritual life of people, 00:55:14.918 --> 00:55:25.798 I want to say that it's kind of maybe from a conservative Christian standpoint, 00:55:25.838 --> 00:55:29.498 if you're very conservative, right? right? 00:55:30.578 --> 00:55:35.978 You might be a little bit, it might feel really easy to be kind of self-righteous 00:55:35.978 --> 00:55:40.198 or critical of people who don't manage their triggers very well, 00:55:40.298 --> 00:55:42.198 right? So they're like, oh, I'm triggered. 00:55:42.358 --> 00:55:46.058 You can't, you know, can't bring that up, topic up, or that's a really upsetting 00:55:46.058 --> 00:55:49.938 topic or thing that you said or situation I found myself in. 00:55:50.038 --> 00:55:54.238 And then they completely just, you know, because they were triggered. 00:55:54.378 --> 00:55:58.378 They give a justification for whatever behavior comes 00:55:58.378 --> 00:56:01.298 after because they were triggered right and it's really 00:56:01.298 --> 00:56:04.258 easy just because i know our audience you know 00:56:04.258 --> 00:56:07.378 like if you're in a really conservative mindset to be 00:56:07.378 --> 00:56:10.678 really critical of like of 00:56:10.678 --> 00:56:13.678 people who are like you know oh that's just so silly that's so 00:56:13.678 --> 00:56:16.558 like you know snowflake ish of 00:56:16.558 --> 00:56:20.458 like maybe the younger generation or of whatever you 00:56:20.458 --> 00:56:23.158 know other person that you think is on the other side of 00:56:23.158 --> 00:56:27.638 you to kind of be critical of that um that 00:56:27.638 --> 00:56:30.658 is sometimes how demonic activity and 00:56:30.658 --> 00:56:33.578 oppression is used i think is like 00:56:33.578 --> 00:56:37.238 a well that like that was 00:56:37.238 --> 00:56:41.558 demonic oppression or that was and and so 00:56:41.558 --> 00:56:44.378 that's why that happened or that's why i just you 00:56:44.378 --> 00:56:47.618 know can't seem to get my life because satan's called 00:56:47.618 --> 00:56:51.538 like i'm really i 00:56:51.538 --> 00:56:54.558 like i guess like it's okay 00:56:54.558 --> 00:56:58.258 to acknowledge that like yep satan 00:56:58.258 --> 00:57:01.258 and evil is having an impact 00:57:01.258 --> 00:57:04.958 on you perhaps in some way um but. 00:57:04.958 --> 00:57:11.718 By golly let us not just like use that as like the rubber stamp excuse for me 00:57:11.718 --> 00:57:19.278 to behave sinfully to um to not deal with my stuff to not deal with my stuff 00:57:19.278 --> 00:57:23.638 yeah um you know and so that's uh. 00:57:24.720 --> 00:57:30.400 You know, I don't know. I feel like I don't, I, you know, I just kind of feel 00:57:30.400 --> 00:57:32.820 like that's a thing that happens sometimes. 00:57:32.900 --> 00:57:35.040 And I don't think that that's healthy. 00:57:35.260 --> 00:57:39.780 I think we need to kind of own what's ours, you know, and, and, 00:57:39.840 --> 00:57:44.260 and if there is like some sort of demonic thing going on, let's not just like 00:57:44.260 --> 00:57:46.300 freak out and throw our hands up. 00:57:46.820 --> 00:57:54.000 Um, I will share a piece of my story in that kind of intersection with this 00:57:54.000 --> 00:57:56.240 topic because it may be helpful for some people. 00:57:56.320 --> 00:58:00.680 I at one point was experiencing, this was many, many years ago, 00:58:00.820 --> 00:58:06.040 but I was experiencing consistent, like to call them nightmares is not correct. 00:58:06.340 --> 00:58:10.260 They're not, they weren't night terrors necessarily, but I was having dreams 00:58:10.260 --> 00:58:18.000 that were immensely upsetting on like a, not nightly, but like multiple times a week basis. 00:58:18.160 --> 00:58:21.320 It was like my first semester at Bible college. 00:58:21.480 --> 00:58:26.180 I was really trying to pursue the Lord in several areas, and I was having very 00:58:26.180 --> 00:58:31.120 upsetting dreams and were really impacting me significantly. 00:58:31.880 --> 00:58:37.780 I was upset each day when I woke up. I didn't really know what to do about it. 00:58:38.420 --> 00:58:43.420 And so over the course of that semester, I was spending intentional... 00:58:43.420 --> 00:58:48.680 I was fasting my lunches, And I was during that time, I was spending time in 00:58:48.680 --> 00:58:52.640 prayer, reading the word and singing some worship songs. 00:58:52.800 --> 00:58:59.060 And so I eventually, once this became like happened enough to the point where 00:58:59.060 --> 00:59:02.320 I was like, I was like, I, this is weird. 00:59:02.460 --> 00:59:06.140 Like, this isn't just me having like a couple of bad dreams one week. 00:59:06.200 --> 00:59:10.540 This was like, it started to happen for at months. It was a month long thing. 00:59:10.540 --> 00:59:15.720 I, you know spent some significant concerted prayer towards it. 00:59:15.840 --> 00:59:20.600 I I think I involved at least one other person to be in prayer about it. Um. 00:59:21.723 --> 00:59:25.603 And then had a experience where I felt like that was, 00:59:25.663 --> 00:59:32.003 I woke up from a disturbing dream and had to kind of have a prayer with Jesus 00:59:32.003 --> 00:59:39.203 and very much felt whatever it was that was affecting that or affecting my sleep leave. 00:59:39.503 --> 00:59:41.923 And never since have I had one of those dreams. 00:59:42.863 --> 00:59:47.923 And so that was my experience. I've never shared that like majorly publicly 00:59:47.923 --> 00:59:53.303 because it's a, I don't know. No, I don't want to, I don't think it's super 00:59:53.303 --> 00:59:56.143 helpful to fixate on that, on those types of things. 00:59:56.603 --> 01:00:01.883 But simply to say, like, I devoted myself to prayer and fasting and it went 01:00:01.883 --> 01:00:07.243 away and I called out in the name of Christ and it wasn't, you know, 01:00:07.283 --> 01:00:12.103 like, like it doesn't have to be this like Hollywood thing. 01:00:12.503 --> 01:00:15.883 It doesn't, it doesn't have to be that. and you 01:00:15.883 --> 01:00:19.063 know and it was sometimes and 01:00:19.063 --> 01:00:22.983 i still have bad dreams but this was different 01:00:22.983 --> 01:00:26.103 you know and it felt really you know 01:00:26.103 --> 01:00:28.923 over a season it really felt very tested and 01:00:28.923 --> 01:00:32.143 was affecting my spiritual life in a significant way so i 01:00:32.143 --> 01:00:35.343 don't know hopefully that's a helpful story to 01:00:35.343 --> 01:00:40.683 share to some degree so um yeah 01:00:40.683 --> 01:00:47.163 is that 01:00:47.163 --> 01:00:50.243 it are we done yeah i don't know uh is that 01:00:50.243 --> 01:00:53.663 i if you have questions about demonic possession 01:00:53.663 --> 01:00:57.103 um yeah i mean write them in the comments or send 01:00:57.103 --> 01:01:01.563 them to us on our text line yeah uh 716-201-0507 oh 01:01:01.563 --> 01:01:04.303 my gosh i still got it you got it um we won't 01:01:04.303 --> 01:01:07.083 promise to have the answers because no like i said we 01:01:07.083 --> 01:01:10.103 you know we'll only have answers as it 01:01:10.103 --> 01:01:12.983 pertains to what we see in scripture yeah i 01:01:12.983 --> 01:01:17.503 don't know i don't remember tend to know anything else other than that um the 01:01:17.503 --> 01:01:23.763 solution seems to seek seems to be to seek jesus always so yes even the demons 01:01:23.763 --> 01:01:32.723 know his name yeah and they shudder yeah um so um yeah lord build our faith in that. 01:01:25.680 --> 01:01:33.840 Music. 01:01:34.483 --> 01:01:39.043 Thanks for listening it's good to be back and we'll see you on the next episode. 01:01:39.600 --> 01:01:46.089 Music.