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Hey, Vic, welcome to the program.
Thanks for having me, Matt.
CEO of Pressable, first podcast ever.
I am delighted to have you here as the as the first podcast.
I am excited to be here with you.
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In the show notes, when I interviewed Jess Frick a few months ago, we talked
about sort of Pressable as sort of having like the startup culture vibe, like a
startup within a startup, even though Automatic is a billion years old in
tech terms, is that a, is that a culture that you, that you really latch onto?
Is that a vibe you really latch onto as the CEO of Pressable?
How do you do it?
Uh, is there a sort of North Star for sort of being like, You know, the, the, the kid
in the classroom amongst the 2, 000 other automaticians that are at the company.
Yeah,
Vik: absolutely.
I think, uh, we focus.
On trying to be really rapid with anything we do.
So, you know, I think in a larger organization, you have to, you have to
coordinate with, in this case, a couple of thousand people to make a lot of changes.
And in principle's case, because we're, we're isolated and, uh,
we treat it like a true startup.
We can just say, Hey, we're, we're going to go build something.
And We don't need to think about it after that, we just go do it.
Uh, and so that lets us, I think, go to market with features and
functionality and marketing changes and anything a lot faster than a larger
Matt: organization would.
You all recently did, recently again within a couple months, a sort of
redesign of the dashboard and an approach of how folks can manage
their sites, uh, through Pressable.
I assume if that was like a dot com rollout, it would have been years
for that to like go out versus maybe your team is a lot more.
A lot more agile.
Do you have to like, run things through the auto automatic org chart to make
those changes or it is, like you said, like we can rapidly deploy this as
long as it's sensible, you know, UI customization or upgrades to the platform.
Vik: Yeah, the latter.
We can, uh, I think in the case of the dashboard project, uh, our front
end designer Wayne, uh, just, you know, one night was thinking about it.
He didn't talk about it with anybody.
Just a couple of days later, he came to us and says, Hey, I've got this great idea.
And.
Honestly, I think within six or eight weeks or so, he had a functioning
version of what you see today.
And, you know, it was just a quick, yeah, let's do it.
No, no coordination with anybody inside Automatic
Matt: for that.
One of the things that was interesting when I talked to, to Jess is.
That, you know, at Automattic, and, and recently Matt made this post, he's going
on or has gone on sabbatical, but he made this post about cards in Automattic.
It's the only way I know how to say it, you probably have the right term
for it, but cards in Automattic, where there's a bunch of hosting
companies that a lot of people probably just don't think of off the top,
immediately off the top of the head.
Pressable, of course.
com, VIP, which sometimes people can forget about if you're not
really talking about enterprise in WordPress a lot of the time.
And then maybe the WP cloud project, is that?
Does Jesse Friedman and team get hosting cards?
I
think
Vik: they're actually the help the host because they're, they're
trying to, they're trying to make every host out there successful.
Whereas pressable VIP and.
com are more the be the host.
Matt: And where I was going with this is like stitching that communication
across the organization, right?
So pressable might have a customer, let's say whale of a customer, right?
I used to be a sales guy for.
Pagely.
Whale of a customer.
And then somebody at VIP goes, Hey, hey Vic, who's that?
Who do you have over there paying you 30, 000 a month on your infrastructure?
Why don't we slide them over to, you know, the VIP side?
It's just an interesting dynamic to have these multi brands
across Automatic for Hosting.
How do you all communicate?
Do you have like, these are my customers, this is my customer type, so we're
going to keep it on our infrastructure, and if they were a large publisher,
then sure, they can go over to VIP.
How do you split that sharing of customers and approach?
Vik: Yeah, you know, I think it's pretty simple.
And the way we approach everything is what's best for the customer, which
business or which platform is going to serve the customer's needs best.
And that's what matters, right?
It's not about where does the revenue belong or which one's
going to drive more revenue.
You know, I think a good example, we had a lead come into Pressable a few
months ago, and it was very clearly an enterprise site, it government related.
We could have hosted it without any challenges, but you know, we thought
they would be better served by VIP.
So we, we sent it over to them and they're now with VIP.
Matt: What about WooCommerce?
Do you have an approach when you're building out?
whatever solutions for WooCommerce, whether it's in the dashboard or the
hosting infrastructure, do you have the flexibility to say, Hey, we, we
can come up with our own way of doing.
WooCommerce hosting or is automatic as a whole saying, no,
like we're going to usher in this hosted WooCommerce experience.
Or do you have that freedom to to create your own Woo kind of implementation?
Vik: I think we have the freedom to create our own implementation and to
work pretty closely with the Woo team on sites that You know may not be best
for WooExpress, but they're not quite at the VIP level And so we work with
with Woo and those customers pretty closely to put them on Prestable today
Matt: I'm trying to illustrate this picture, especially against the canvas
of these cards that Matt just launched.
Hosts.
If you have a host card at Automatic, you are part of one of the hosts,
and your job is to encourage folks to host with your brand.
So Vic is probably going to have the Pressable hosting card, and he's going
to encourage you to host with Pressable.
You might run into another Automatician who has helped the
host card, and that's to help with.
With any host, right?
Is that the thing?
Yeah,
Vik: absolutely.
And so I think in the example of Woo, they may have a customer that comes in.
That's at some third party host, uh, I think WP engine or Kinsta wherever.
Uh, and if we can solve the problem for them while they stay at that host,
you know, we're going to do that, obviously, if, if we think they may be.
And I think that the goal is very much to be, uh, neutral
in, in that, in that sense.
So they're helping the customer regardless of where they are.
So ultimately we're helping all the hosting
Matt: companies.
And if you're at like PocketCast, you're like, yeah, I just go host at Wix.
Doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter to us.
Every WordPress is special.
I think it's as Matt put it, right?
It's like this rising tide, you know, lifts all boats and it's
sort of a, just another Yeah.
You know, we've seen this, um, in the industry for a while where, uh, automatic
invests so much, uh, time and resources that, you know, one might feel like, well,
you know, if we're another web host, why, why, why would we work with automatic
when they have their own hosting?
So it's, it's competitive, you know, but you could flip the table and
say, well, you're profiting way more than automatic is on this hosting.
So as a sort of neutral way of saying, Hey, look, are all of automatic will help.
because we want just WordPress to thrive.
However, if you're on the pressable team, the.
com team, the VIP team, we will say our product is great
and you should host with us.
And I think that's a fair way, a fair approach to it.
Vik: Yeah, absolutely.
And I think, you know, the, the thing we, I think want to convey to everybody
in the community is WordPress as a whole, this open source project is
Vital and the entire community needs to exist and be successful for,
for anybody to exist in it, right?
It's not just about automatic.
It's about all the theme and plugin developers and all the
other hosts being successful
Matt: as well.
It's a good, uh, transition, uh, how WordPress is vital.
I mean, part of the reason why I do what I do here at the WP Minute is because
it's not just, Hey, I love WordPress.
I love to tinker with WordPress.
I love to build with WordPress.
That's an element of it.
But WordPress as an open source.
app that's so widely used.
It doesn't mean people care about it.
I mean, it doesn't mean like the person running their WordPress
website, like loves WordPress like we do and like cares about it.
But there's a freedom that they don't really fully understand
what they have that this tool is built largely out in the open.
with thousands of developers contributing to it.
And then, then there's a pool of sort of what I'll say, third party, the
community, which also supports it, which you just don't get from any
other crucial app in your life, right?
You don't, unless you run it, unless you're the diehard
geek and you just run Linux.
Uh, on your, on your laptop, you know, in your, in your home devices, right?
But you, you don't get it from a Microsoft.
You don't get it from an Apple.
You don't get it from the computer that runs your car or your television.
Like this stuff is so vital, I think, to, to humanity from the software side,
from the publishing side, it blows my mind that people in tech still don't get
this press media, other startup founders.
They don't understand the, the gravity of.
of WordPress, which is still boggling to me in 2024.
It seems
Vik: pretty fundamental, especially in the web.
I think it's, I don't know what the current status, but 40, 45 percent of the
web is powered by, by WordPress today.
And you look at some of these closed platforms that exist out there that then
own your data and you're limited in how you build your site, how you can market,
whether it's SEO or whatever it may be.
Um, And then you compare it to WordPress and there's such a
huge, huge advantage that I don't think everybody truly appreciates.
Luckily though, I do think the, at least the WordPress community largely
does appreciate, especially everybody who's contributing back to core.
Matt: One day when Matt is on a TechCrunch interview.
I hope they finally understand since they've been running on WordPress for a
decade plus because I helped build the first version with 10 up years ago when
they actually ported over to WordPress.
I hope that one of the reporters or podcasters there finally understands
like dot com dot org and the value of open source WordPress.
It drives me bonkers, uh, that we're still having to define that and define the.
the value of having open source.
I saw somebody on Twitter the other day, you know, saying I haven't
touched WordPress in eight years and I logged in and it's a mess.
And you know, screenshots showing all this, the frustrations.
One, you haven't touched it in eight years.
What, what did you expect?
Uh, but two, he's like, I'm a developer.
Why should I use any of this when I can get web flow and all this.
Because it's open source, man.
Like we can all do this together.
You're not going to love every nook and cranny of WordPress, but
it's yours and you can participate and help make this thing better.
I get really emotional when I start talking about this stuff, when I see it,
uh, especially when I see it on Twitter.
But man, it's like, I think you, the The human race needs to get educated
on data ownership and lock in.
Like you have to make these, you have, there's no, you can't just,
Oh, Facebook, here's all my stuff.
Here's all my photos.
Here's all my videos.
You have to understand what you're doing with this stuff.
You can't just like throw it out there and then say, well, whatever
happens to my data happens or I don't care if I have to pay absorbent fees
if they just keep raising price.
We have another solution.
It's not perfect, but it's there.
In my
Vik: opinion.
Yeah.
And, you know, you talk about data, data archive, like there's this data liberation
product or, uh, concept now, uh, and, you know, over the years I've, I've talked
to many, many business owners who are running e comm stores and they move from.
Woo or magenta or whatever, it's a Shopify and then a couple of years later, they
want to get back and they want to get out of it and go back to something like
WordPress with with Woo because, uh, they can't do so many things within Shopify.
But they're locked into it and they didn't realize and understand just how Hard it
was going to be to move away from it.
So the I think this data liberation Focus for this year is is a big one
to help people Hopefully understand but at least give them opportunities
to get out of some of these closed platforms and support the open source
Matt: community Let's unpack that a little bit.
Was that sort of like a And all my air quotes for those watching, was that
like an all hands for automatic to say, like, just like this host thing,
we all have to be part of this data.
Like, is there a, I don't know.
Okay.
I don't want to say okay.
Are, but is there like a KPI?
Okay.
Are that that pressable has to do to help with the data liberation project?
Is that an all hands kind of thing across automatic?
I think the
Vik: desire is if we have any tooling that exists to help migrate, uh, aside
from one platform to another, that we should be contributing it, contributing
it to the, um, To the project.
I don't know if there's KPIs or something like that around it, but, you know,
I think it is, it's a very important focus for the community to be able to
survive because as time goes on, people who are building their sites at Wix
and Squarespace or, you know, Shopify, wherever are ultimately going to realize
that it's great for very specific needs, but as your business grows, uh, it's
probably not best for your business.
Matt: Yeah.
I'll never understand how.
And this was another thread and I saw Matt chime in on it.
I forget which e commerce.
Store it was, but I think they said they were hosting with,
uh, maybe it was VIP or dot com.
Maybe neither, and they just had WordPress, and they were doing a lot
of revenue with, with WooCommerce.
And, um, they just, like, hey, we've, we've hit this.
Ceiling and now we're moving to Shopify . It's just like, what?
This WordPress was great, but it was a bottleneck.
And, and then we, we just, we found this bottleneck and now
we're, we're moving to Shopify.
'cause obviously Shopify can scale, but then you're locked in and then
when you wanna adjust in the future.
It's going to be more costly, more challenging, and then God knows what's
going to happen with the platform.
Again, I know I'm biased to, to WordPress, and this is sort
of like an education thing.
People just don't realize that things can scale, and I'm sure there's
developers out there going, Oh, memory buffer on MySQL eventually hits it.
Okay, I get it.
But at least people can come in.
And you can bring in hardware, you can attach other solutions to WordPress, and
it's not just WordPress is the problem.
It's the hosting infrastructure that probably you built it on.
And there's, there's ways around it for, for most
Vik: people.
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that's a common problem where I've been, I've been hosting for, I
don't know, 20 years or something.
And, uh, in a former life, we did a lot of magenta hosting, you
know, magenta was open source.
And, uh, as Shopify became more popular, uh, a lot of people had the same,
same concept where I say, Oh, well, I'm running into these challenges.
So let me Shopify.
Uh, and you know, like I said before, over, you know, X number of months
or a year or two later, they would come back and say, well, this is.
Like this sucks.
Like, aren't there, aren't there better solutions?
Like, can't I use woo and, and make this work and how much can I scale?
Right.
And it becomes just a question of the infrastructure you're providing it.
And that's where, like in a case of pressable, right.
The infrastructure scales up.
And so we have restores, you know, running millions of dollars.
Transactions to them with zero problems.
It all comes back to the development of the store and
the infrastructure behind it.
Matt: Years ago, I made a lot, not just me, but a lot of folks
predicted that hosting companies.
would be, it's obvious to say like the future of WordPress, like the
future of way people experience WordPress hosting companies would
have their own way of doing WordPress.
Just like you log into.
com and it has like this Calypso experience or whatever they dub it.
I would have anticipated, you know, making that prediction five, six years
ago that every time you logged into a, uh, web hosting companies, WordPress
install, it would be just like built a little bit different for that company.
Pressable might have their own onboarding sort of way of, of, of going about
it, maybe even have a different admin.
Is that something that you, that you think is important for WordPress to
continue to thrive, to have these sort of tailored experiences or do
we need to keep WordPress true to its core experience so that everyone knows
you're using a WordPress website.
Let's let's not lose the branding and experience of WordPress by
making our own flavors of it.
Vik: That's a good question.
I think it probably depends on who's actually using or
building the site, right?
I think in the case of a developer or an agency with their developers that's
building hundreds or thousands of WordPress sites, they probably want and
need the same exact experience everywhere, where, you know, I think somebody brand
new to WordPress, uh, might benefit from a little bit of a tailored onboarding.
And so I think it depends on which profile of customer you're, you're
pursuing and trying to serve.
Uh, not that I think the experience should.
Uh, be so different from core for those users, but I think for somebody brand
new coming into it, it can be sometimes a little challenging for them to say,
like, wow, there's a lot of stuff here.
Where, where do I start?
Uh, and helping them just get started and learn a little bit, I think is, is
Matt: probably beneficial to them.
Yeah.
Publishing with.
WordPress is probably like true to its core experience, right?
Starting as a blogging platform, then turned into this sort of platform to
develop websites and applications.
Now all these other bespoke different use cases for WordPress.
There's a pub and I'm gonna forget the name of it right now.
There's a publisher solution in Automatic as well, right?
Is it Newspack.
Newspack.
How do they interface with, with you as a host?
Like, do you work with them to say, Hey, let's go and integrate like this
newspa is that a flavor of WordPress?
Vik: Yeah, I believe it is a flavor of WordPress.
I think it's a It's tailored based on what their need is,
but they use pack essentially runs their own hosting as well.
It runs on the same underlying infrastructure as pressable and,
you know, dot com and others.
It runs on WP cloud, but I think they, they tailor their products
specifically for publishers.
Matt: They have a hosting card.
They have their own hosting card.
Vik: Yeah.
I
Matt: think so.
Yes.
One of the things that has been challenging for some folks through like
publishing content right still in the year 2024, you know, still wrapping
our heads around the block editor full site editing that experience
of WordPress feels like it's taking a while to catch up to competitors.
It's funny, W3Tex, maybe you saw this, they do their annual report on like the
biggest, or I guess it's a recurring data that just constantly updates,
but they put out their biggest CMS for the year and it was Elementor.
And W3Tex is sort of like, WordPress is, and I'm just paraphrasing here,
but they said, hey, it's hard to see WordPress grow when they're already
at 60 percent of the CMS market.
So now we're just going to start recommending, now we're just
going to start showing you like.
plugins that run on top of it.
Like that's how big WordPress has gotten.
Do you see any particular challenges or is there a particular competitor you
have your eye on that has an experience that you say, you know what, be great.
If, if we had.
A newspack flavor at pressable or, or we went after site builders and we had,
you know, Elementor things you would do with Gutenberg and full site editing.
Do you have like a competitor you keep your eye on?
They say, boy, they do a great and maybe we should just watch
them to see what they do.
Vik: So one, we would probably watch.
The entire market pretty closely, but I don't think we look at it as a, let's go
try to mimic one of the site builders.
We're very focused on the developers and agencies who probably don't
need a tailored experience, right?
A lot of a lot of our agencies use Elementor.
Uh, and a lot of them use half a dozen of the other ones
that exist out there, right?
And so for, because, because we're so focused on serving agencies and those
developers today, we don't try to modify the, the core experience for them, right?
We want to give them a unopinionated, uh, version of a, of core so
they can build how they choose.
Matt: Yeah.
Is agencies the, is that the, the sweet spot for pressable agencies?
Yeah,
Vik: it has been for a little while.
We've been focused on building the product to serve their needs.
And you know, most of our growth has come from that market in the
Matt: last couple of years, sell to one customer, get many, uh,
approach, you know, and for that.
Yeah.
Vik: And I think from a service and support standpoint, right, we.
We try to shine ourselves or, you know, one of our differentiators
is we want to provide customers, those agencies specifically with
the best possible support we can.
Uh, and so when we have a fewer number of direct customers, uh,
we think we can serve them better than, uh, trying to serve every
individual out there and letting those agencies ultimately generate revenue
Matt: themselves.
Yeah.
Do you.
Aside from WordCamps, um, does Pressable have a presence in any other sort of event
or media that is focused on, on agencies.
I've been hearing about CloudFest lately.
Are there other events that you, you go to or, or how do you reach
these, these agencies aside from the massive flagship WordCamps?
You know, I think a lot of
Vik: it is word of mouth.
Uh, we, we have sponsored some smaller agency specific summits like
the, um, digital mastermind group.
Which is a it's a very small community.
I think there's 30 or 40 or so agencies in there and when we do
things like that We we try not to be the salespeople selling the agencies
instead We're really soliciting their feedback and trying to understand
what their What their pain points are.
What are their business needs?
What are their developers need so we can build a better product?
And hopefully that ultimately leads to, uh, more agencies
finding pressable and using it.
But really, for us, it's about research and ensuring we're
serving what they actually need.
Matt: You all jumping into the, it's kind of comical to say this now, but in
2024, but are you jumping into anything extra AI on the pressable platform?
That's not included inside of core jetpack.
Uh, cause I know jetpack comes with every, uh, account at.
But are you doing an extending any other features with AI?
We haven't
Vik: yet.
We, we've been good, obviously, just like everybody else.
We're, we're watching very closely.
Uh, but you know, a lot of the use cases that we've seen, I
think others are serving, right?
Or like this.
Site generating, you know, obviously creating content,
uh, AI site generators, right?
But we think the agencies should probably pick and choose what tools
they want versus us Trying to be super opinionated and dictate.
Okay.
Hey, this is this is the thing now maybe as You know, if they're become
clear leaders, those might be things we partner with or bring in later.
But right now, uh, most of our customers aren't even talking about AI
Matt: with us.
Yeah.
Still, I'm skeptical.
I only use it for some content things.
you know, pulling stuff out of a transcript, summaries,
ideation, stuff like that.
I can't see it being a part of my website generation process because ultimately
I just feel like I'm going to do, I'm, whatever you make me, I'm going to change.
Like whatever it comes up with, I'm going to change it.
I know it's supposed to get smarter and better and faster and all this stuff.
Uh, but at this point it's still not there.
What could be interesting from like outside the box of websites for pressable
would be like AI that summarizes or, uh, You can interface with customer
stats, you know, is there a trend here?
Where's the site?
Where's this data coming from?
Or where is the traffic coming from?
That would be kind of cool.
Hey, this little chat bot that you can have with stats.
That's outside of the build me a webpage kind of thing.
We're still early in 2024.
Is there anything that you have sort of on the docket that's coming to the product?
Anything that you're excited about headed into 2024?
Vik: Yeah, we've done a lot in the last Six, eight months to help with,
you know, managing plugin updates and adding our own little twister tag.
We think be helpful to, to customers.
But one of the things we're looking at tying into that is security based updates.
So, Hey, there's a known vulnerability.
So only update those plugins for us.
And then other things that.
We were probably going to have in, in the coming months where we're
going to improve our data sync.
So obviously staging the production is a, it's a big deal.
So we're going to give people a little more flexibility and, uh,
in what exactly is synced over when, and that, that's a big one.
And then I think for some of the agencies as a whole, right, there's.
We've agencies with thousands of sites on the platform, and there are times when
they need to run an action across all of their sites or a mass number of them.
And today that requires them using our API to do it.
In a couple of months here, we're going to give them a UI that'll let them do a
lot of those common things themselves.
Matt: Do you, do you have a, uh, like a small use case,
like what that action would be?
Is it just updating content or is it?
I think
Vik: a simple use case is gonna be like new, new core version comes out.
Today, Pressable manages that core version update for everybody.
Uh, we let everybody stay on an old version for, I think it's 30 or 60 days.
But in the case of a lot of our agencies, they know 80 percent of their
sites are going to have no problem with a, with an update to cohort.
And so letting them update that 80 percent with one click, uh,
will save them a lot of time.
And then they can go focus on those other, other 20%.
The same for specific plugins, right?
They, they may say, Yeah, there's a, there's a plugin they use across all
their sites and they know it doesn't cause a problem for 98 percent of them.
So let them mass update those things, things like that.
I think there's, there's a list of probably a dozen items that
fall into that, that we're going to roll out over the coming
Matt: months.
That's awesome.
That's cool.
And that's going to be right into the UI, right?
Not like command line, so people like me just melt my head looking
Vik: at it.
Well, it will be in the API too, I believe.
So we, we try to, we try to make almost everything that's
in the UI available in the API.
I think the, maybe the only limitation is like updating your billing information.
Um, there's not much that's not available
Matt: in the API.
Very good.
Will Pressable have a presence at WordCamp Europe?
I
Vik: don't know honestly well yet or not.
We're still debating.
We've, we've typically stayed at WordCamp US just because of the
smaller team, but we're definitely thinking about, uh, Europe and I'm
going to be at, uh, WordCamp Asia,
Matt: uh, this year.
Cool.
We're rooting for you on the sidelines.
It's a, you know, it's a startup within, within a startup.
And I've really enjoyed obviously my time.
And I'm not saying that because you all are sponsors, but I've been using
it for, uh, using your platform for a nonprofit site that I'm a part of.
And it's so easy.
Like the one click login saves my butt so many times, uh, you know, like forgetting
the passwords that those, I know those are simple things, but the UI is great.
And again, somebody who's been in the host, ran an agency for a decade, was
in the hosting space, selling hosting.
I know.
how critical people can be just on the, like the UI experience alone.
Like you'll have people tell you like, Hey, you know, I remember being at
Pagely back in the day when it was God awful UI and people were saying, when
are you going to update this thing?
Like we're, we're looking at competitors and we're going to leave if you don't
give me like stats in a one click staging.
Um, But I also, on the flip side of that, it's, it's not easy to just
like create and build this stuff and integrate it into the infrastructure.
So I commend you and the team for, um, you know, what you've
been doing with, with Pressable.
I think it's great.
Vik: Yeah, we appreciate the, we appreciate that.
And the, the team works really hard to bring a I think a world
class products to, to the market.
Hopefully it's a continues to be easy to use.
And the feedback we get from our, our, our current customers, future customers, and
even past customers is, uh, really helpful to help continue, uh, refining products.
Matt: Some might say even more enjoyable than dot com.
I'm just the one that's going to say it, Vic.
You don't, you don't have to say it.
Vic, thanks for hanging out today.
Uh, it's been a pleasure meeting you and uh, doing your first podcast.
Thanks
Vik: for having me, Matt.
Matt: That's it for today's episode.
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