Isabelle Richards (00:02.277)
I'm gonna say it again, it's so good to see your face.

David (00:04.726)
Yes, I'm back with a real image and my camera's working and for anyone that doesn't know, you literally muscled through our last recording session not being able to see me and that was, that must have been impossibly hard.

Isabelle Richards (00:17.305)
Well, it was, you know what it is. It's like, don't realize how little I'm picking up. Well, put it this way. I don't know that I'm picking up on the body language and the subtext and the cues of a person until it's missing. And then I realized that without some kind of verbal interruption, I'm going to just keep going. I'm going to fill the void. And I far prefer the back and forthness of our.

Chit chat.

David (00:48.141)
There's so much nonverbal like with nodding and like blinking and then like watching one person get excited and so like you there were time for you talking and then I'm Wagging my tail over here, but you couldn't see it and it was like does am I making sense and it's like oh my god.

Isabelle Richards (01:01.405)
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's like the checking for understanding. Like, someone following me or did I lose them, you know, 10 minutes ago? Totally. Totally. Well, I have some big news and I promise to share it on the podcast. And I am nothing if not a rule follower. So if I said something, I'm going to do it. I officially got my neuropsych results back. Ooh. And I have

Pretty severe ADHD. Not a shocker. And also, I'm high masking autistic. Whoa, thank you. So I believe that makes me Audi HD is what the cool kids are saying nowadays. It's, yeah, I kind of, mean, something, I think that like neuropsychs or even like how you get diagnosed or don't or like that kind of thing is like,

David (01:40.29)
Congratulations!

Isabelle Richards (02:00.833)
a fairly common question we get. But also, I think this, like, I don't know, this has like blown my mind in terms of expanding my understanding of neurodivergence, right? Because it's like, there's like layers to ADHD. Like, well, anyway, that's my jam. I don't know what I need your help, David, guide us, guide us, David.

David (02:21.358)
Oh my god, so like this is that thing where I think like we can all know something or you know read about something but there's different knowledge when you have an experience or when you experience like go through something and you can you can say no to this but what I'm curious is like is there any way that you can like shed some light on what that neural psych process is like for people just because like like is it I know the answer but like the questions can be like are there electrodes to your head do you have to shave a part of your body like you

Isabelle Richards (02:42.029)
Yes!

David (02:50.412)
How much magnets are you exposed to? Like, this just a flow chart? So yeah, what was that like?

Isabelle Richards (02:54.829)
Yes. that's a great question. Okay. So I will own, I don't know a ton, but I do know more now having gone through it. So, okay, backing up, what is a neuropsych? From what I understand, it is, so if you think about the world of helping professions, right? Like, you know, there's doctors and there's nurses and then there's...

Uh, like the admins who work at the hospital. Do you know what saying? Like there's different kinds of roles for different kinds of titles, right? So counselors or therapists or psychotherapists or psychologists, a lot of the time, if they're doing clinical work, which just means that they see clients, right? So like, that's like what you and I do. Um, that kind of fits our job title. My level of education means that I could administer.

very specific types of tests and assessments, but not a whole time, right? Like, because I didn't take, essentially some people choose to take extra years of school and they literally spend like some of that time, like a full year usually, practicing giving people assessments. And what that means is like literally written or computer tests that are designed to give them data about that person.

Right? Like maybe sometimes they're symptoms, sometimes they're like their personality traits or their qualities, right? Like, and then they're trained to like interview people in very specific ways. And then they're trained to like take all that data and then make a really sound judgment. Right? So a neuropsych, from what I understand, is someone who has learned that type of test administration specific to

looking at psychiatric or psychological states or conditions and also understanding a lot about like the neuroscience and the brain. Question mark?

David (04:56.206)
So yeah, no, no, that's perfect and brilliant. And so like, is like, what a normal psych is, it's a battery of tests that involves, know, like, I believe there's an intelligence test in addition to a lot of other tests. And I guess, how long did it take? Were you in a room with one person? Did they shave a part of your head?

Isabelle Richards (05:20.037)
Okay, side note, everyone clocking that David asked me a question and I answered it extremely literally. That is a feature of being on the spectrum. So ta-da, this does not shock me, I love it. Okay, yes, so in my case, so with kids, yes, like, full disclosure, we're a neuro-spicy family and for kids in particular, it can help them.

David (05:32.942)
There it is.

Isabelle Richards (05:47.567)
get accommodations in schools, it can help teachers and support staff understand what to do or how to work with them. It can help them. And it can also be really scary and intense, right? So part of my particular journey, I want to back up a name, is that we kind of all decided, including one of my kids, that it would be a good idea for my kid to get more data about themselves. And because of that, I didn't want to send my kid into anything I hadn't experienced.

I'd always wondered, truthfully, since I've been diving deep into ADHD land, I've always thought, man, I must have an auditory processing thing or a sensory thing. There's just been extra mustard on the hot dog that is ADHD. I did have genuine curiosity. I signed and had, knock on wood, we had good insurance this year and we already met our deductibles. I was like, sweet, because these neuropsychs can be a pretty penny without insurance. I want to say like three grand sometimes.

David (06:46.903)
Okay, yeah, yeah.

Isabelle Richards (06:47.705)
Right? Not to say I know for sure, right? Depending where you are and what's going through ish. And I'll name that for kids, a lot of times it's totally covered, especially if your pediatrician goes, yeah, that would be helpful. Right? So like a pediatrician or another professional working with your kid, like a teacher, someone goes, hey, this might be helpful. Like, you know, I'm just throwing that out there. So for me, what it looked like is it looked like as a grownup, right? I don't necessarily need this for school.

David (06:50.678)
ish.

Isabelle Richards (07:16.055)
Right? Like, so the other thing about kids' neuropsychs is that usually need to, it like lasts like two to four years because kids grow and develop so fast. So you do have to do it again and again and again. The cool thing about being a grownup is it's like, I mean, a lot of things are relatively stable. They're not going to change dramatically. You kind of, you know, one and done in my case. Right. But what they do is first I meet with the neuropsych for, it was about an hour and she

was delightful. made me feel like that side note, that's something that I think changes the game is feeling like someone is she was very neuro inclusive, like right, like she wasn't sitting there going like, really, you have ADHD, you suspect you have autism, you know, she was not that at all. She's like, tell me more. And I'd say compared to like a conversation with a therapist, it was less about

necessarily just present moment stuff. She was asking a ton about my childhood. Like she kind of covered like a lot of the bases of my life, you know, like she's we spent time talking about my family, the current family. We spent time talking about work. We spent time talking about what it was like for me to be in school. And she started as we were talking, like she was kind of

very transparent and asking me more specific questions, right? So she was kind of asking me, no electrodes, literally sitting in a cozy office, but she's just like going like, hey, so tell me about like friends. What was making friends like? know, like, is that something you still struggle with? Right? Like, so she was kind of like, I think, digging for patterns in my overall.

like life history, right? So I think especially with autism and ADHD and other types of neuro spice, you're talking about a neurodevelopmental condition, which means it's not like a disorder. It's just like, even though it's called that, which is really annoying, but it's more like a state of being, right? That's like gonna show up throughout your life and to different degrees, right? Based on maybe your accommodations. So she was asking me a lot about like patterns of

Isabelle Richards (09:24.537)
feeling kind of out of step with my peers or, you know, my years of bullying, the feedback I would get from a lot of people that I not only distracted them and talk too much, but also that I seem to like not catch on to things really fast socially. There were quite a lot of faux pas that like connected to my thinking, me taking things very literally.

And unfortunately, lots of bullying and lots of feeling really lonely, right? Like, so was a lot of questions about that. There were lot of questions about stimming, which is something that the autism community I am learning is, as I know, I think this applies to all neuro-spice, ADHD included. But stimming is literally like your senses have taken in too much or you've spent too much time pretending to be neurotypical, aka masking. And you just like you need a sensory soothing mechanism to release.

David (10:20.43)
I always think of stimming as like a car exhaust.

Isabelle Richards (10:24.331)
Yes, that is totally a good example. Yes, it's literally like, it's like dumping the excess exhaust out of your exhaust and nervous system.

David (10:33.624)
And it's a part of what, but if your car isn't running or you're not like going really fast or rev the engine, like you don't have that much exhaust coming out. Like there is some, some connection to like the person and the energy and their environment. I just want to validate, like it is, it's often I think thought of as anxiety and it's not that at all.

Isabelle Richards (10:53.259)
Yes. OK, side note, that has been the biggest reveal of this whole process. I always self-assign myself even in our work, even in this podcast. I talk a shit ton, excuse my language, about being anxious a lot. I am starting to realize, because side note, the assessment found I'm not very anxious because that tracks because I'm actually not very anxious at taking tests, which is interesting. Right. So like, it's not going to catch that. But actually, I don't think it's not that I'm anxious. It's that what happens is I get really confused and my senses get really overloaded.

And what people see on the outside is my hands start to flab, which is such a, I mean, that's such a stereotypical stim, but it's like real. Side note, I also walk around with my hands like T-Rexes a lot, and I love that. There's something about that sensation that's really soothing. I love wearing certain types of tight clothes and textures because it like reminds me where I am in space. I hate other sense, you know, like, but what I mean is like,

David (11:47.534)
Mm-hmm.

Isabelle Richards (11:49.977)
the correlation between my anxiety, like what others would read as anxiety or worry or like, you're getting overloaded. They're reading it and I've learned over time in a way something I'm realizing is how much I almost like mask to myself, how much my own explanation for my own behaviors had to do with this, in a way, outdated explanation that I'm anxious. So for example, I would come home, I would pace, I would be kind of flapping my hands.

I would need to do really detailed like handwriting.

David (12:23.886)
I love that you're looking for an example of this.

Isabelle Richards (12:26.007)
Yeah, yeah.

Isabelle Richards (12:34.287)
Voice assistant should be turned off. I don't know what we must have reset. Backing up, right, I would come home and what I would say to explain the state I'm in, I have tears streaming down my face, you know, I'm like very upset. All I wanna do is curl up eventually in a blanket and be under a weighted blanket and be left alone. Any sound is getting to me. But the words coming out of my mouth are like, I'm really overwhelmed because I had a hard day at work.

David (13:00.343)
Hmm?

Isabelle Richards (13:00.821)
And it's not that that's not right or accurate. It's just missing the crucial piece, which is, like in my case, it was I went to Target and I was under fluorescent lights and was around a ton of people and some random stranger talked to me and said something I didn't understand. And then when I said what, they kind of looked at me funny. that's, you know, like that connected more to the state I found myself in.

then, I had a bad day at work. And also I had a hard day at work. But does that make sense? It's like the root is so different and I'm just now getting that, I think.

David (13:36.334)
It's so different. think sitting with uncomfortable feelings and anxiety are different, but they're still uncomfortable. And I think the way we think about anxiety and the way we treat anxiety often is that somebody's fragile. And that can be helpful. But when that's applied to somebody who's neurodiverse, who isn't fragile, who isn't experiencing that, it can be pretty frustrating. I know as an ADHD-er, there are times where I'll be sitting waiting for something.

Isabelle Richards (14:00.503)
Yeah.

David (14:06.254)
bouncing my leg Like I try not to make noises with it But like I will I will get going to a pretty fast like leg bounce and like my whole body will be kind of be shaking. Oh Yeah, look when you're bouncing it and then like you're beat like you can feel your chair kind of like your chair bounces a little bit like oh Way to go foot like or like or like there's some kind of elasticity with like how hard the ground is and like the angle of your foot so you really get it so

Isabelle Richards (14:17.029)
That's the best kind. I love that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

David (14:32.222)
I have just been like, I'm sitting there stimming. I'm just sitting there bouncing in that chair and people be like, it's okay. It's just a doctor's visit. You'll be okay. And like the reality is I'm going for a physical. I'm bored. It's like, I was supposed to be seen like 15 minutes ago. Like, and I'm currently in this like half ADHD stupor, like thinking about nothing, feeling my body shake. And someone's like, you don't have to be nervous. And like the way that pulled me out of the moment, I'm like, no, what? Like,

Isabelle Richards (14:36.673)
Mm-hmm.

Isabelle Richards (14:51.64)
Mm-hmm.

David (15:01.75)
And I think that it's good that you're putting words on this because so much of how people are perceived has a significant element of judgment in it.

Isabelle Richards (15:12.201)
Yes. my gosh, David. Like what you said is so exactly right. It's like now imagine that multiplied across your whole life, right? Like over and over and over again, because I'm not sitting still or because I'm pacing or because I love to rock on my feet. People read me as being impatient in a moment, right? Or they're thinking I'm annoyed or they're thinking I'm

angry even. And that always blew my mind, side note. Like the whole idea that people think you're angry and that whole like, excuse my language, resting bitch face idea that existed a couple years back, which I hope we've kind of debunked a bit. like, a piece of it is it's like, no, when you see me without an expression on my face, and you see me rocking back and forth, I'm actually super happy and chill. Like that's me at my best. And yet when you

tell me that you are now taking what I'm doing as a signal to you that is so ultra confusing because it takes me from like my Zen happy space into, my gosh, I have to mask and translate and explain and you're not gonna get it anyway, it feels like, cause I don't know that I get it all the time and like, ah, and it's immediate executive functioning, like, ah, things I can't do anyway. So I can't really explain myself. So it's a lot easier sometimes just to be like, yeah, side note, okay, this connects back.

David (16:13.314)
Yes.

Isabelle Richards (16:33.571)
I actually have a question for you. I am going to answer the bigger question you asked first, but can we put a like a pin in this question, which is like the question of, gosh, and I just lost it. Damn it. was such a good.

David (16:46.982)
It'll come back. It'll come back. We were talking about like like the way things are masked the way things are perceived by other people

Isabelle Richards (16:56.133)
lying. The frequency of lying among ADHD, autism, how often. I don't mean lying like bad lies. just mean how often. I've always thought, this is like a big true confession time, I've always thought like, man, I must be secretly a really awful human because I do lie about a lot of random things like that. I'll be like, yeah, I am getting antsy.

Like I'll just say it because it's like so much easier just to say that. But I don't lie about big things. No, it isn't. But like other people, I always I didn't understand that that's something every human does. I just thought that that's something I was doing wrong.

David (17:29.294)
Is that a lie?

David (17:40.856)
That's not dishonest, that's masking.

Isabelle Richards (17:43.109)
Exactly. Fuck. Yeah.

David (17:45.154)
It's different, yeah. And I think when we get into like lying is such a really, I think interesting. It's such a loaded word, but I think it's so complicated within the context of neurodiversity, Like my friends will be like, okay, cool, talk to you tomorrow, I'll be around tomorrow night. And they're like, great. And then they're not around tomorrow night. And I'm like, did they lie to me? It's like, no, no, they thought they were gonna be available and there's an impulsive moment and it didn't happen. But I think what we are talking about is like how integrity can be perceived.

Isabelle Richards (17:50.031)
Big loaded word.

Isabelle Richards (17:55.749)
Yeah.

Isabelle Richards (18:10.116)
Yeah.

David (18:14.444)
and how mindful we might want to be in different ways about what we want to own about ourselves. Which is subtly different.

Isabelle Richards (18:20.419)
Yes, yes. Totally, totally. my gosh. Okay, so I'm a little bouncy because clearly this topic makes me so excited and it was so cool. So let me back up because I left that question unanswered and I think it's important. So I sit there, I talked to this lady for an hour and some change. She actually had a student in with her, which side note, you can always refuse, but I said, sure. I love, I do too. You know why? I think it's because for some reason when there's like two people in a room,

David (18:41.451)
I love the student joining. I don't know why.

Isabelle Richards (18:48.525)
It's way easier. I'm realizing it's way easier for me to play the eye contact game because I don't have to keep eye contact with one person for as long. So it just diffuses a ton of tension in me instantly. Yeah.

David (18:58.402)
my God, I heard this hack first, looking at people. If you look in between their eyes, they can't tell.

Isabelle Richards (19:07.385)
Yes, well, and I, okay, so backing up, why is eye contact, this is not true of every human, this is true of me. I need to say this, when I make direct eye contact with a person, it feels like I'm seeing into your soul. Not that I actually am seeing into your soul, that's just what it feels like. It feels like beyond intensely intimate and like I'm getting a download of your very fiber of your being.

feels rude to me to look at your eyes without you like one being in a closer, you know, like some kind of emotional bond, like a friend or a family member or something, but two without like consent, it feels so wrong. And so what I do and side note, I can't do between the eyes because the eyes are too close. do like almost like they call it the third eye. I do the spot between the eyebrows. You can look at people's eyebrows and also eyebrows give you a lot of data, which

David (19:56.793)
nice.

Isabelle Richards (20:01.837)
It helps me kind of focus in on just a piece of data, because if I'm looking at your eyes, I'm getting so much information from the whole face. It's like, I'm not really getting anything.

David (20:11.246)
Because 10 times the neurons fire when you look at another person in the eyes. It's way more overstimulating.

Isabelle Richards (20:16.868)
Whoa, seriously? Hold the phone. That, that, yeah, that does not surprise me, but I love having that number. That is exactly how it feels. It feels exactly 10 times more intense. Which I know is why I love video is because I don't have to, I'm looking at a little dot and people read that as me looking at

David (20:18.893)
Yes.

Isabelle Richards (20:41.835)
looking at a dot, which is hard to do anyway. But anyway, so I sit there with this lady for an hour with the student. They're both very compassionate. Then they asked me if I have questions and I'm notoriously awful at that moment. I never know what to say. So I say, I never know what to say, you know, and they're like very kind about it. And then I say, I mean, to some extent, like you can judge me for this, but I literally am, you know, sobbing at this point because a lot of the questions they were asking me were really

painful actually to reveal to anyone. And I'm kind of like, I'm crying and I go, am I crazy? Am I making up that I am on the spectrum because of some weird thing I don't even know I have? And she smiles and she goes, so hey, we got to get a lot more data. And I can tell you that so far you read as very high masking and also you've checked

all the boxes, right? So I do think it would make sense, especially because it's causing you. I think that's also something she was listening for is like, how important is it that I get this information? What's my reason for getting a neuropsych this late in the game, right? Because for school or for work accommodations, it's a little more straightforward. It's like, in my case, it's like, well, do you want to spend all that money? In my case, not a lot because of insurance, but yay, right? Like, do you want to spend the money for what? Like, what's it going to give you?

And I think she was picking up on that it was causing me a ton of distress to be feeling like I'm the last to know something. Side note, that's been the story of my life is this feeling like I'm the last to know something about myself and how ashamed and scared and freaked out that makes me. And the more I sat with the idea, I might be also on the spectrum. Because ADHD to me was so obvious. It was noted by people forever. You know, like that was, it was a different acceptance curve in my own heart around that.

This was more like, wait, but does that mean everyone the whole time has known and I don't know? like, oh God, like, does that make any sense? Like, was like, I feel like I'm the last to know something that feels like it should have been obvious.

David (22:49.642)
increased understanding reduces suffering. And like knowing something about yourself like that, so you could understand like, what are what are choices? What isn't about like, not building the right tolerance? What you what should like, there's so much around, I think, understanding, like, that isn't about like a diagnosis or deficiency, but like, it's about, I think, validating why things feel the way they do, or what shouldn't shift, not what should.

Isabelle Richards (22:52.389)
yes! my gosh.

Isabelle Richards (23:10.724)
No.

Isabelle Richards (23:16.461)
Yes, yes. Yeah, it's like discerning like, maybe some of those things I can just get on the boat of accepting and embracing and creating room for instead of continually telling myself, just tough it out, change it, you know, go to the next store today, even though you're spent, you know, like, like it just can make life easier. Right. So

So she's like, yes, go ahead with the neuropsych. Side note, Bobby won't mind that I share this, but I also signed him up for one too, because again, we met our deductible rate as a family, so it is what it is. Get the data. And he, I was in there for like an hour and some change. He came out after 10 minutes, or no, that's not true. He came out after like 30 and he goes, yeah, well, I'm good. And I'm like, wait, what? And he's like, yeah, I just have ADHD and here's, you got some good resources, but you know, we talked and you know, it doesn't sound like I'm gonna get a lot from a neuropsych.

David (23:47.212)
Get the data.

Isabelle Richards (24:08.811)
And that is fair for him. That is very accurate. Like he knows what's what, what's up. He, who knows if he has other neuro-spice, but that's not causing him any pain if so. And I love that she read that and like, was like, okay, cool. That's a piece of her job too, is to go like, but maybe you already know what you know. And like what you really need more is like a coach. And like, so she referred him to like groups and coaches and it was like so helpful for him. So, yay. You know, like side note, as people are listening,

This is not a prerequisite to self-identification. This is more a hoop kids will have to jump through, sadly, to be able to ask for accommodations in schools.

David (24:42.136)
Nope.

David (24:50.52)
Yeah, the way I'd put it is this is about a systemic hurdle, not an interpersonal hurdle. And what I mean by that is this is about, like a neuropsych can help you understand the world around you and or help you get accommodations if you're within specific companies or areas of work or a child, right? Like it's not just for kids.

Isabelle Richards (24:55.576)
Yes.

Isabelle Richards (25:09.825)
Yes. Yes. Like for example, in my case, I have a lot of funky and fun medical conditions. I love that now on my medical file, I have this neuropsych, right? Because like the thing is about an autism diagnosis is not necessarily different from an ADHD diagnosis, but a little bit different is like even myself, I'll name in my practice, I take a lot more time reaching an autism diagnosis if that even crosses that bridge. Because again,

I just, one, ADHD, I just know a ton more about. So I think that's a piece of it for me, for sure, is that I'll be very transparent. like, this is something I'm still very much learning. ADHD, I've already learned a lot and I am still learning. So like, I'm not naming this either. But, you know, it's like, for some reason, in my head, I like wanted someone whose job it is to like sit with people and discern if they have autism or not, be the one to tell me.

not just me and that's a me thing. That's not an every human thing. Like I have lots of friends who don't need that at all.

David (26:17.102)
I have a different experience that I want to make sure I'm sharing. I've had neuropsychs in my past in school and I've had this kind of, like I've had, my story is a marginalized student gets neuropsyched and like, no, it's not like, it was like three hours of testing. They broke it up into like two different days because I did it at school and it spit out, my God, what did it spit, I think the first one I took was I'm just oppositional.

Isabelle Richards (26:21.209)
Yes, please!

Isabelle Richards (26:27.088)
my gosh, tell me your story.

David (26:46.606)
there's no ADHD, there's just some spelling stuff, right? And then later, and then later my next test in college was like, no, there's ADHD. what, there's also issues with spelling, but my God, ADHD, right? And then I haven't like thought about it since then, right? It's just been like, okay, and like for me, this is where, you know, the ADHD diagnosis changed everything. was like getting glasses or getting medicine for the first time. I started reading books again, it was amazing. But like fast forward.

Isabelle Richards (26:49.125)
WHAT?!

Isabelle Richards (27:00.549)
Wow.

Mm-hmm.

David (27:14.926)
20 plus years, right? Like hard fast forward. And I'm talking to someone I know through eye to eye who has a family now and they're saying, think I want to get my child checked out for neurodiversity and in order for my child to not feel alone, I'm gonna go back and I'm gonna do another neuro psych test and we're gonna do it as a family. Kind of like what you're saying.

Isabelle Richards (27:14.981)
Mm-hmm.

Isabelle Richards (27:40.089)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah!

David (27:42.126)
And I'm like, that's amazing. And I remember thinking like, that's awesome. Like this is exactly how it should happen. And then, and then he said something, I'll never forget. goes, I'm kind of scared. Like what if it says I'm not a virgin anymore or something. And, and I, and I sort of, and for me, I've had, I was like, I have been diagnosed, like this is fine. And even if I just self-identified, like it doesn't matter, but like, I don't want another neuro-sense cause what if they take it away from me? Like, I don't know. It's so irrational, but I have that.

Isabelle Richards (27:55.759)
Can I?

Isabelle Richards (28:11.685)
my gosh, David, first of all, can I just say, okay, so okay, everything you're saying is exactly how I felt. So after that initial meeting, like, well, the thing that I think was different, right, was there was not necessarily time pressure and also there was a huge shortage of people who could do this and an abundance of people who need it done. So like the wait list to have the, like, so the first appointment is just the interview, second appointment for testing.

David (28:12.034)
Good night.

Isabelle Richards (28:40.197)
span of time, and I'm not scaring people, I'm just naming, I didn't know this, in our area, at least in the national area, was we went in for initial interviews in like October, and then I was seen for testing in February. And my kid is going to be seen for testing in another month is how long the wait, right? And that's like a separate appointment. was done by a separate person. In my case, I went to a different location of the office, and they gave me a heads up.

And there was a really nice person there whose job it is to like admin the test. And this was very much like, like going into a room that you take a test in. Like it's got little, you know, little cubicle style arrangements. It's got little chairs that have little, little laptops. and part of the test was done on a computer and they, they explained this all. And then they're like, okay, you're going to set up this computer. There's going to be a very frustrating test. Just be prepared to be frustrated.

you're going to think the test is done and it's not, know, like they kind of like prep you so you're not like questioning everything as you take this test. And in this case, this test was like, and again, every like the thing is, is, the other thing I learned is that like you do need separate, like the amount of time it takes has to do with like what they're kind of testing you for. So if you're getting assessed for like, like the part you said about IQ and ADHD, that's something

I'm learning that they do for kids in schools, for accommodations. That's yet the IQ idea to be tested to assess like your processing speed, your working memory, in greater depth, your visual spatial reasoning, like your ability to kind of tackle different types of tasks and what's going on there with the reading and the symbols and the numbers and everything. They're doing that because first off, it's way…

David (30:10.894)
you

Isabelle Richards (30:32.429)
It's like you got one, you got a goose, you got a gander. If you got one form of neuro-spice, your odds of having another form of neuro-spice are extremely high. So fun fact, if you have autism, 40 % chance you have ADHD. A huge, huge percentage of autistic humans also have ADHD. So welcome, friends.

David (30:49.838)
You know, % of the autistic population is like, damn it, it's only 40 %? Like, come on!

Isabelle Richards (30:54.309)
I know, like that doesn't make sense. I know there's probably more. Let alone other, and then other like, like LDs, right? Like dyslexia, dyscalculia, dysgraphia, dyspraxia. Those last two have to do with writing and with movement and coordination in space, and proprioception and stuff. So like, it's just super common. And also with younger kids, they do do more like,

Like I don't even know what a three year old being screened is gonna go through, but I know that they were they do they'll first be going to like an OT they'll be doing more physical work, you know, like play like they're looking for a bunch of things. But in this case, I sat in this little cubicle. I looked at a screen and I had to hit the mouse. Yes, there was an old school mouse. Every time the little screen set it like one number or I heard the number. I'm not kidding David. 15!

David (31:48.544)
that's it that's I yeah

Isabelle Richards (31:51.031)
of this. It was excruciating. And I also signed out. So like, there's a part of the next part of the testing where like you fill in the blank of a sentence. And half of my full in the blanks were like, I hated what just happened on that. It was funny. I didn't think it was funny. But yeah.

David (32:10.958)
So this is amazing. I guess what I do want to say is when I was a kid and I was taking the assessment, it happened within my school. I was pulled from my class. I went to a small room with a very nice person with a giant book, and they just started asking me questions. And I didn't know how long it was really going to take. They told me it was going take more than one time sitting together, but I didn't know how long that time sitting together was.

Isabelle Richards (32:20.637)
Isabelle Richards (32:38.035)
my gosh.

David (32:38.76)
It was and I think there was a part of me that like in the for the first five minutes I'm like, this is fun. You want to talk to me and then like as I kept going I'm like this is an ending and so I do think that there's like for kids I think a level of buy-in becomes incredibly important Because it's hard to get data when you don't have a willing participant I don't think I was a willing participant in my first neuroscience. It was like something that that had to happen for me because

Isabelle Richards (32:54.821)
Mm-hmm.

Isabelle Richards (32:58.585)
YEAH!

Isabelle Richards (33:06.37)
Mm-hmm

David (33:06.968)
people thought there was something wrong with me, let's be honest about language. And so they were looking for what was wrong. And like that became pretty, pretty clear, like in the meeting. So, so for, and they don't really do it like this anymore. Like, like it can happen, but like typically testing is outsourced with specific professionals or, you know, it's done in a really different kind of office environment rather than like, I don't.

Isabelle Richards (33:15.299)
Yeah.

Isabelle Richards (33:22.553)
Thank God, yeah.

David (33:34.722)
Like it wasn't even like a teacher's lounge. was a weird room in my school that like I... It was windowless! It was...

Isabelle Richards (33:39.107)
It's like those windowless rooms that with the door that has no sign on it and you walk past it every day and then suddenly there's a room there. Yeah.

David (33:47.116)
In the room itself, if I remember from like my child memory is like this circle desk and the door is behind her. And I'm sitting and I don't even know what's behind me and it feels like a closet. I'm sure it was bigger than that. like, so, you know, fast forward, it's, it's different. Like it's important to talk to someone who has been assessed to find out if they liked the person who assessed them. I don't think.

Isabelle Richards (33:54.736)
I don't like that. No, no, no.

Isabelle Richards (34:13.486)
Yes!

David (34:14.624)
I don't think every neuropsych is concrete and what I mean by that is sometimes you can go get a second opinion. And there are people that specialize in different areas of neurodiversity that I do want to honor. Like some people that are really good at assessing ADHD are not good at assessing autism. Some people...

Isabelle Richards (34:22.528)
Mm-hmm.

Isabelle Richards (34:34.987)
Exactly. It's two very separate things. And side note, wasn't even... This is the part that blows my mind. It has been documented as the combination of the two being in existence clinically forever. Side note, you will find like 1700s accounts of what we now call ADHD and not what we now call autism. So like, let's dismiss the myth that this is like a modern thing. It's just new words for it.

David (34:55.502)
Mm-hmm.

Isabelle Richards (35:01.443)
Did you know that you could not actually, as a clinician or as an assessor, put both in your diagnosis, like for insurance, for doctors, for hospitals, until roughly seven years ago?

It didn't exist as a co-mo, you could not have both be a primary diagnosis. You literally could not, the DSM did not allow for it. It literally ruled one, you had to rule one out to have the other. Doesn't that, and you know why? we can get it. I'm on my soapbox. Do you know why? A huge, huge, huge piece of it is just pure politics. It's because insurance companies didn't want,

to have the rates of certain conditions rise because then they have to do more coverage for them and plan on covering them. They ask people doing the DSM to purposely, like when they change the diagnostic criteria for certain things, they're like, wait, the rule is you gotta keep the relative rates across the population the same. Side note, I'm just putting that out there as people are listening. I'm not trying to like conspiracy theory. I'm just naming that, of course, like every part of our life.

the system and ableism and all kinds of isms and capitalism is going to come in and factor into what we call things and why we call them what we call.

David (36:21.96)
And I think it's important to really note like what has changed over the last 10, 15 years between both ADHD and autism in terms of perception and judgment. And I will say that like, I have like a big part of why I got into this work is to move that needle around judgment around neurodiversity. And like it was solely focused on ADHD when it first got into this and now, and LD and now it's expanded. But I think...

Isabelle Richards (36:30.797)
Yes!

Isabelle Richards (36:45.369)
Yeah.

David (36:48.852)
Autism specifically, I want to say 10 years ago, had like such a pejorative view of the diagnosis. And today there's still lot of work to be done around changing the perception of the diagnosis of autism because neurodiversity isn't deficiency, right? But there's a number of people that will hear the word autism and think nonverbal or think not functioning or can't be independent. And because they have

Isabelle Richards (36:57.38)
Yeah.

Isabelle Richards (37:06.979)
Yeah.

Isabelle Richards (37:13.798)
Mm-hmm.

David (37:17.87)
They have examples in their head and I think what was really important about seven years ago, you know, with this dual diagnosis stuff is being able to see neurodiversity outside of deficiency.

Isabelle Richards (37:28.109)
Yes, yes. And being able to recognize that, you know, it's possible to have complex beings. It's possible for someone to perceive me as being very ADHD in one context and then perceive me as being on the autism spectrum in another context. so something, gosh, it makes total sense to me, David. I'm sorry, I'm like having a feel right now as you said that. I don't know why that felt so good to hear you say that. Yeah, that felt, that feels really good.

David (37:52.258)
As you know.

There's been so much neglect because it's like oh no, I don't want to be autistic. I don't have ADHD I don't want to be why would I want to do that to myself? That's that was so real and I think we are Everyone listening you and me like we are the keepers of the stick

Isabelle Richards (37:59.374)
Yeah.

Isabelle Richards (38:10.777)
Yes, yes, because we're the ones that if we don't reveal other examples, and that's a pressure on us, right? But you're right. It's like there's no other models. There's no, you know, OK, can I give a teeny tiny example because I'm going to burst into tears as I say this. So the other day, the kid, my sweet kid, my older kid who is as wise as wise can be, we needed to go back to the doctor just to see like, you know, leftover gunk was happening.

And we go to the doctor and I can't tell you this is a really good doctor, really great with my kids. And I swear every encounter I have, I leave and I call Bobby and I go, I think the doctor hates me. Because, especially when it comes to my kids, I have no bones about asking 800 questions. I think I unmask without realizing it because I get very literal.

I will stop and I'll go, no, no, no, remind me the dosage because I'm so scared of like missing the number and I'm not good with numbers. You know, like I ask for a lot of more data than I even do for myself, right? And so I just sort of this vibe that I was annoying this doctor. Side note, that's an old wound too. But I don't mind being annoying when it comes to my kids, right? Anyway, that's another talk. So I'm sitting there and my kid is, this doctor is asking my kid really direct questions. Like does your throat hurt, for example?

And I see, and this was like this moment I got chills. I saw my kid go like check in and answer no. And I in that instant understood myself and my kid in a very different way. I went, yeah, because right now it doesn't, because you just had a sip of water. And I turned to my kid and out loud in front of the doctor, I go, baby, I'm gonna pause. You and me both?

we're going to take any question we hear and we're going to really check in and answer right away, like the full truth. We take things and I, my kid like knows the word literal roughly. And I'm like, we take things very literally. So I think what the doctor is asking is like across the last week or so, has your throat been bothering you on and off, even if it's not bothering you now? And my kid's like, yeah, a lot. And I realized that

Isabelle Richards (40:30.221)
happens billions of times a day. And you know what? I'm not joking when I said my kid, the look of relief on his face, I feel like I fail as a parent all the time, 99 % of the time, it's my own thing. But in that moment, I feel like I got it. And I was like, yeah. And also in my head, went, man, I need to like, again, why is valuable for me to have the autism diagnosis? Because I see so many different specialists for all these funky medical things. I want that on my file.

so that they maybe give me a little more leeway and they take a little more time and maybe they are gonna meet me with a dose of info or compassion when I ask 800 questions or I get confused. can sort of, I feel more equipped to stand up and advocate for myself because I feel like I have a little backup in a way that I didn't before. And for my kid, I kid you not, this doctor smiled at us both and took all the time we wanted and I swear something clicked in her and like she felt like a different doctor to me.

And I don't know if that's because I changed. I think it's because I changed. I revealed I was vulnerable and I revealed something that is scary. But again, for the sake of my kid, I'm going to do it. And now I'm like, wow, what? Why? Why did I say that right away?

David (41:35.32)
There it is. Yes.

David (41:43.47)
think, I have a really good friend I talk to like weekly and recently like they discovered that they're, know, they're artistic, autistic. so I sometimes say artistic and they're, I'm not trying to do that, it just slurs, but like, and I think for them, there's a significant amount of distrust of the world. And if I think of like a world that like before you,

Isabelle Richards (41:59.055)
Love it, yeah.

David (42:11.598)
identified or understood the identification of autism, like a world that would constantly miscommunicate with you, constantly ask you things and make you feel like you can't do it because your throat doesn't hurt right now or whatever, you know, the variables, that there's a significant amount of distrust for the world. And so when they learned, you know, when they learned that they're autistic, they were terrified to let anyone

Isabelle Richards (42:18.944)
Mm-hmm.

David (42:40.366)
And they were recently going to a dentist appointment. And I was like, man, you gotta tell them. they're like, absolutely not. Like, are you insane? Like, I'm going for dental procedure. Like, this is irrelevant. And when they came back, know, dentists aren't like a bag of fun. They're great people, right? But they were like, yeah, we don't.

Isabelle Richards (42:48.057)
Mm-hmm.

Isabelle Richards (42:55.951)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Isabelle Richards (43:04.516)
Mm.

David (43:07.404)
I talked about how much the light was bothering me and someone came back and gave me some sunglasses and that made the whole appointment a lot better. And I think this is where I can't make my friend feel like the world's safe and I can't make you who's listening think that like I can't tell anyone the sturdy secret of mine. Like I can't make you believe that it's safe, but I can say like we can feel cared for when we tell people what we need and they can respond.

Isabelle Richards (43:25.422)
Yeah.

Isabelle Richards (43:32.409)
Yes, yes. When you preempt the opportunity, as painful as it is to have someone miss, statistically first off, some of the time you're not going to miss. And I think the tricky part for me is I don't know until recently what I really needed.

Like I would have been in that same situation and I probably would have been really upset and would have said things like, I just want you to give us more time. I just want you to hear me. I'm just really anxious. I'm curious. Really what I need is for you to get that I'm taking everything you're saying literally. So watch your words a little, but also it's on me to communicate that I'm not understanding you and to check my understanding. together we can get, like, I think of it as like,

it's gotta be more of a two-way street. And unless I like tell people, hey, I'm driving this way, this is the direction I'm driving, hello. You know, it's like, I feel like for years I've been driving a car without turning on the turn signal. And the world has been a bunch of cars not turning on their turn signals all the fricking time. And I've suddenly discovered a turn signal I could use to go like, hey, let's both get off the road.

And, follow me, thank you, follow me, or I can follow you, right? Like we're gonna like at least get closer to approaching what it means to go back and forth in a way that I can get and you can get where we, yeah, it's exactly that, David. It's such a mistrust of the world, but I wanna name, like I think it's like comes from traumatic stress levels. Yeah, yeah.

David (45:00.142)
The end.

David (45:06.222)
For sure, wait, wait, it comes from real places, not like fragility. I think the benefit that I understand now of being identified as someone with ADHD that I didn't understand even like 10 years ago or 20 years ago, as much as I loved ADHD the whole time, when we get identified, we can fit into a culture much different.

Isabelle Richards (45:29.399)
Yes, yes.

David (45:30.606)
And I think that there is a part of the coming out process, if you will, in terms of neurodiversity that allows you to get normalized, which doesn't happen in other, like, the first time that happened for me was when I went to an eye-to-eye training, and I'm a 30-year-old, and I'm walking in this room that's made for neurodiversity, and I'm like, well, it's a lot easier to be in this room.

Isabelle Richards (45:42.425)
Yeah.

David (46:01.718)
maybe the weird things about me that aren't like, maybe they're not just about me. That person wants to bounce a ball. They're going to bounce a ball with me. That person's strong. I'm drunk. Everyone else has a messy room, but all those people have clean rooms. It was like this amazing moment of like, I am not the problem where I was, I actually understood it differently. And I don't think I would have felt that way if I, this is where like everyone's like, you don't need the label. And I'm like, I need, I needed the label.

Isabelle Richards (46:05.827)
Mm-hmm.

David (46:30.336)
I needed the label to understand myself. Like knowing thyself. I didn't need the label to like... as much as like Dr. Barkley is great and he's a genius when it comes to the way he talks about ADHD makes me feel like he's an asshole. Like I needed to...

Isabelle Richards (46:34.693)
Mmm, yes.

Isabelle Richards (46:47.043)
my gosh, wait, David, David, David, David. my gosh, sorry, I'm gonna jump up and down, I'm so excited. I learned a factoid about Russell Barkley that changed my entire understanding of him. Okay, can I share it really fast? Okay, I swear this connects. Okay, so I need to fact-find, we'll put it in the show notes. So Russell Barkley, everyone, David and I on and off talk about him. He's kind of known as the biggest researcher in ADHD.

Not to say he's the only one, but he gets a ton of... He's really, really good. And he also pushes forward. He was on the board of the DSS. He's the top of the APA. He's the one up there in the position of power helping change the game for a lot of humans, right? Here's the backstory, right? Because the thing that you and I have both been... At least when I talk to clients about him and looking at his research and stuff, always...

David (47:16.866)
He's good. He does really good research.

Isabelle Richards (47:42.979)
make a little caveat, which is like, hey, food for thought, it does take a pretty doom and gloom stance about a lot of things. It's very harsh. It's very much like, wow, we're all going to die early and land in fatal car accidents and all these scary things, right? And so he's got a lot of like scary truths, but it is kind of intense like to sit with it. And again, research base, he's not just like making a big deal of this. Here's the backstory. Did you know?

And I don't know what his age is now. He is a twin or was a twin. Do you know the story I'm about to tell you? Brace yourself, because it feels like it explains everything. His twin had severe, like severe off the charts ADHD.

That twin, his brother, like never wanted to acknowledge or treat it. The brother also had a number of really painful struggles with addiction and had a history of really, really scary like car accidents and ended up dying in a fatal car crash in his like 50s. Does that not?

help you go. Holy schnikes. Does this not? I mean, not to say I'm psychoanalysing Dr. Parkley, but I'm a little bit like, my gosh, this explains why he's so much about the cars. He's really, I know that's a big part of the research is always about the cars and the driving. You should never drive without medication kind of thing.

David (49:12.494)
So, Isabel, that's a tragic story and I don't think anyone is evil or bad and this is a great example of how he's a not evil bad person who has progressed the study of ADHD and neurological understanding of it. One of the leaders, the thought leaders, who talks about it like we're assholes. And so I'm gonna maintain that.

Isabelle Richards (49:37.539)
Yes, but you understand now, cause he, that's what was, sorry, sorry. Okay.

David (49:42.432)
No, please. The way he talks about it hurts people's self-esteem. And I can understand there's an origin story, but specifically only guising things in black and white deficiencies makes people feel like they can't change and they end up using ADHD as an excuse as opposed to an explanation. I think it's important to have compassion for people. So like when we look at the story, and yes, he does talk a lot about addiction and car crashes and things like that, but like,

Isabelle Richards (49:47.749)
Yeah.

Isabelle Richards (50:03.173)
I hear that.

David (50:11.566)
when we look at the story, like I don't want to find, like, I think we all have really sad parts of our past, but it's what we do now that matters, right? And when he's talking to a room full of neuro-typical, actually someone had challenged me recently, is neuro-typical even a thing? I'm like, I don't know. So when he's talking to a room of non-ADH deers, right, I'll say it like that, those people tend to leave thinking the people with ADHD is having less capabilities and not more.

Isabelle Richards (50:21.221)
Fair, fair.

Isabelle Richards (50:31.908)
Yeah.

Isabelle Richards (50:40.131)
Mm hmm. Yeah.

David (50:41.804)
And that's the part of him that I will kind of like bristle at. But he's not a bad person. He is brilliant. He is a leading researcher. It's that moment where he likes folk music and I like rap. It's okay, but I'm not gonna pretend to like folk music.

Isabelle Richards (50:57.647)
Fair, fair. And you take issue with the idea that he's then saying things like rap is not good music, right? like, like, not that's like a bad parallel, right? But like, there's something

David (51:09.742)
You know, the parallel would be like, only good music is folk music and the thing about other kinds of music is people are bad if they like it.

Isabelle Richards (51:16.261)
Exactly. That's the part that we're taking. Yes. Okay. I hear that. I will name that for me. Maybe this is like the autism part of me. I have this part of me that wants to problem solve when I see like that kind of attitude or that kind of inhumanity come across because I agree. I find it very dehumanizing, depersonalizing. Like I legit

have, you know, recently sat through like a six hour training of his and I was in tears and just like, my gosh, what's my, you know, what's my life, you know, like it definitely is very hard to listen to because it's like, yeah, it is, it is very doom and gloom. And I think when I learned that really truthfully, what had happened is that it helped me make him into a fuller human. And that then helps me reconnect to a way everything he says is not

the full truth. It's not everything. I get to choose what parts make meaning for me and I get to also question it differently. You know what I mean? That's what it gave me, a reason to help explain why something felt like I was getting slimed. Do you know what I mean? I don't know if that makes sense.

David (52:32.402)
Mm-hmm like no it does like knowing why like increased understanding reduces suffering Knowing why does matter? just don't

Isabelle Richards (52:37.157)
Yeah, exactly!

And it's not an excuse, but I love what you said, right? Which is so true, which is the idea. And side note, think this is, I've seen a lot of like hostility and backlash around, Audi HD and autism and that idea that like, you know, because like just to, just to state out loud, right? There's different like autism, just like it is, is a spectrum of experience. Are there non-speakers and, folks who have a lot more struggles who don't?

David (53:01.454)
V

Isabelle Richards (53:08.119)
are, you know, quote unquote, low masking, who have high support needs is the terms you hear nowadays. Yes. And there's another part of the spectrum, which I note if people listening are from another, you know, like myself from another generation, this style of test they gave me anyway, literally still says on it this term Asperger's, which is a term that existed forever ago, that is still clinically, you know, it's still clinically valid, like you're not going to throw these tests out.

But it's, please tell me more about it. But this is the term when I was growing up that was used to describe almost like it treated it like a different category. Tell me everything you know about it, David. I don't know enough. I'm just throwing out there for people listening if they're like, wait, what was that term?

David (53:53.4)
You're welcome to edit this out.

Isabelle Richards (53:55.927)
Say more...

David (53:57.496)
believe he was a Nazi and Dr. Asperger was the line of which you let someone live. So if they were more deficient or more autistic than this Dr. Asperger thought, then they were not allowed to live.

Isabelle Richards (54:15.789)
my gosh, no, we should not edit that out. That is really important, I think, as part of the history of this culture.

David (54:22.35)
And so why the term Asperger's is problem-having is that it is looking at who can mask and avoid death.

Isabelle Richards (54:35.029)
my gosh, sorry. I'm just, I'm.

David (54:35.128)
So let's get rid of that and think about autism. You know, like, sorry, like.

Isabelle Richards (54:40.757)
No, mean, gosh, yeah, that is no, I'm so glad you said that. I'll do a full disclosure. My family goes back to, you know, like camps and stuff, you know, like, like, I mean, I'm not the only person, right. But like, there is a very personal connection to some of that history. that is who.

David (54:43.917)
I'm sorry.

Isabelle Richards (55:03.141)
you

and I don't want to edit it out. Like that, that people, right? Like that was not that long ago. I know that it feels like it was a long time ago, but it wasn't that long ago. And not that that's the reason, you know, atrocity should be ignored or not mentioned, but whew, fuck. And I'll put it in the show notes. And I'll also throw, although side note, there is data to support that trigger warnings are more.

harmful for survivors than not. So if you're wondering, I'll just we'll just name we mentioned that or something, but I don't want to like

David (55:42.986)
If, yeah, I think that's a whole other conversation.

Isabelle Richards (55:47.749)
Let's have a whole other conversation when we're prepared for it. I'm going to, is it okay if I gently steer us back to my test experience so I can finish that story? Okay. Is that okay? Do you feel okay departing? you have to go, go, go, go, Yes. And I know we're cut. We're reaching like the limits.

David (55:57.016)
Please finish that, yes.

I have, but I have to pee. I have to pee. Yeah.

Isabelle Richards (57:13.551)
So for those listeners who want to dig deeper into what I am now learning is a very nuanced and very interesting piece of the history of neurodivergence, there will be a link in the show notes to articles, to books. Yeah, like, know, explore as you will, and also know that, yeah, there's so much more to the history of this word.

David (57:42.446)
you

Isabelle Richards (57:43.299)
I just like recorded an insert. I already started reading the articles. Wow, wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's really good. And I need to read the book now too. Okay. okay. So, no, no worries. Let's do this. Okay. So in a nutshell, do that. Months, months, months, months later, I go and I sit and take this test. of it, piece of it's on the computer. It drives me up the wall. Then I sit and I get like a packet of old school, like if you did Scantrons back in the day, like tests.

David (57:47.246)
Okay, did you see? Yeah. Okay.

Alright, let's do this.

Isabelle Richards (58:11.589)
where have to like fill in the little circle of like, always, sometimes, never. There's a person who comes in and out to answer questions. Do I end up having 800 questions? Yes, because I take everything very literally. So they're like, do you have a rare medical condition? know, like they're screening to see if like someone's got like an issue with somatization, you know, which, which for listeners, that's like when.

And side note, that does not mean you aren't experiencing real symptoms. It just means that like you're having a lot of body symptoms and you're identifying maybe certain states as body symptoms, you know, like, so you're not calling it anxiety. You're like having a, you know, like a big bloated, you know, belly feeling, right? Like, and it's caught, there's a lot more to that. Point is, is I keep going, I just need you to know I actually do have a reumatical condition. And I'm like, please take note, please take note. And then I'm going.

So is this question asking this or this? So anyway, that was slightly funny to me. And the questions range from fill in the blank, like literally questions like, finish the sentence. My biggest fear is, and then there's just like a little line. So you just got to like write something, right? All the way down to questions like, think back on your childhood. Answer this thinking back on when you were a kid. How often did you bleh? How often did you bleh?

Then they gave me a questionnaire for me to give to someone who knows me well, that the way they framed it is someone you're comfortable, you know, disclosing you're getting this neuropsych with. We want someone who knows you well, could be a spouse, a partner, a good friend, a family member. You get to choose, at least for an adult. I want to say for kids, I know that they will

give assessments to the caregivers, primary caregivers and parents, as well as the teachers. Like they're trying to see the kid in multiple environments, right? But in my case, it was just one who knows me well. And so of course I gave it to Bobby. And then that person turns it in separately, right? Like they don't even have to show you, although in our case, we totally sat down afterwards and like sat and walked through it. And then you wait and then you go in for another meeting to find out what they found. And they type up this really detailed, elaborate

Isabelle Richards (01:00:27.077)
It's like a 25 page, 30 page document. I think with IQ tests, it's probably closer to like 60. It's a dense thing. And it reviews, like again, someone who's sitting there looking at every test and explaining like, here's what you got and here's why. But they also include a ton about your history and the interview. And then based on all of that, they come up with diagnoses and they sort of say, hey, officially here's what I propose you have.

know, you can show this to anyone you need to to enter it into your medical record, blah, blah, blah. And so I'm not kidding, David, when I say, first of all, in this time span between the initial interview, this is now like six months, right? Wait, what's math? Whatever. Close to a long time. I have since that first moment that the doctor sat with me for an hour and a half and then like at the end goes, yeah, you meet a lot of criteria. I have of course been on my own deep dive journey.

of special interesting the shit out of autism and ADHD. So like I'm reading books on it. I'm looking at Reddit threads. I'm like, just deep, deep, like, oh my gosh, it's I'm seeing the matrix, you know, like, and I've even talked about it, right? I bring it up to everyone. I'm like, oh my gosh, what do you think? Do you think? And the thing you said about not to say fearing, but having the idea that you would get assessed as an adult and they would take it away from you. I

felt that so profoundly in my bones. I was driving to get my results and I purposely, I could have done it virtually and I set it up to be in person because I legit was like, if they tell me no, I might collapse on the floor. I don't know why, but that's how hard that idea was to me. I get in there and she's talking, talking, talking, and she's like walking through it. And at one point I just go, I'm so sorry. Can you just tell me, can we skip to the chase? Because I cannot concentrate unless you just sign up. That's also.

I'm learning a autistic feature. It's like, like to know the end so that I know where it's going. That helps me follow. So I like to skip to the end, you know, I'm like flipping through it, but I was too scared to like flip through the pages myself, you know? And she was so sweet. She's like, yeah, you have autism. I'm like, and I burst into tears and I'm like, my gosh, my whole body relaxed. And I'm like, this is it. I don't need anything. Like, but that was the fear. The fear was.

Isabelle Richards (01:02:43.801)
you don't understand, I finally feel like I have an answer to a riddle I've been feeling, but not having words to my whole, a lot of my life. ADHD answered a chunk of that riddle, and yet this answer is even more in a way that makes me feel like I actually am, it's like, it feels like my whole life I've been walking around looking at fun house mirrors to understand myself, and I'm finally seeing a real reflection.

that captures more of me in a way that makes total sense. And so she walks through all and she explains it. And the other thing, okay, so yes, I have autism, but I also, not that I needed to know this because I say this to say, think my, like put it this way, the autism was not a sturdy self-concept and integrated part of my identity yet. It was a, I'm scared and I think, and it could, but maybe, but I just, it's a process, right?

ADHD, especially given that you and I talk about it like all the flippin time and it's like the focus of our work and we do courses, everything. I am so sturdy in my self-awareness around that I was like, you can tell me anything and if you tell me I don't have ADHD, I'm gonna be really questioning what you assessed. Like that's how sturdy that is because it's like, I know I know me about that. So, but it was a little validating.

I don't know why I found this validating. I felt like it was a source of pride because there is an old school way of thinking of ADHD that is like there's mild, moderate, severe side note that is referring back to Barclay and like his sense of the spectrum, which we can absolutely also destroy or at least toss out certain ideas. It's a framework. It's a framework. Yeah, I'm severely awesome. Exactly. I don't like that it says severe. It does sound like a thunderstorm warning.

David (01:04:13.454)
you

David (01:04:31.564)
It's a framework, it's a framework. I'm severely awesome.

David (01:04:39.694)
I'm just saying it's like, what?

Isabelle Richards (01:04:41.687)
Like, I'm a Floodwatch? Excuse you. Flood with awesome. I'm gonna storm the shit out of everything lame is what I'm gonna do.

David (01:04:53.358)
It's not judgmental. There's just a graded scale where severe is at the top. It's like I'm having a severe good time. like, that, do I circle severe? Like how good was this training? Severely good? Yeah. Okay.

Isabelle Richards (01:05:02.325)
Uh-huh. Severely good. Exactly. was severely good. I'm going to reframe it as extremely, extreme. But yes, I am extremely ADHD. And they're looking, based on that one little computer test, they can look at your auditory and visual ability to initiate attention, sustain attention.

and then like come back to a task and stuff. And they're also looking at speed, processing speed a little bit. Side note, I kind of am annoyed I didn't get more data. I will say what she shared, I was like, where can I get more data? She goes, okay, to get even more data for an adult, what you would really end up doing is getting like a test people are given for dementia or brain injury. So she's like, and they take that style of test and that's what they use for ADHD.

Is that also not slightly disturbing? They use to get more data on our brains. It's normed off of tests that are used for traumatic brain injury, like serious accidents, you know, like someone suffered a brain injury. It's literally brain injury tests that are finding the deficits in our functioning and then can decide like, that's temporal lobe, you know, like the cool thing to a degree is that that's like what they give you after a stroke, right? Like they're able to use

that type of assessment where they're asking you questions or having you look at things, use a computer, all that, to then be able to know like, you hurt this part of your brain. So that's kind of neat, but like what?

David (01:06:33.197)
Did I?

Okay, wait, and here's the thing with the way all this time I've spent and thank you for saying is well we're on the same page. I love talking with you. I've understood like I use the word neurodiversity because I actually believe this is not a deficiency or a problem or like due to having too much plastic or not enough oxygen or not enough discipline. If you were to get no if you were to be if you're some fancy like person and you're like deciding to make people

Isabelle Richards (01:06:56.527)
Or too much folic acid or whatever, some shit, yeah.

David (01:07:03.918)
Are you gonna make a group of people all have the same brain? That would be such a problem. In every facet of life, we know diversity increases. We don't wanna keep marrying within the family. Diversity is a good thing. I can't make this example enough. And so the idea that we would have one brain to problem solve doesn't make sense. It does make sense that we would have one brain that works really well when things are boring and one brain that works really well when things are chaotic.

Isabelle Richards (01:07:29.881)
Yes! Yes.

David (01:07:30.838)
and like another brain for other situations and it doesn't make sense that like one would be severely apt at handling chaos or severely unequipped at handling chaos. It's like, doesn't make sense. It's like what you're good at. You do what you're good at.

Isabelle Richards (01:07:39.843)
Mm-hmm.

Isabelle Richards (01:07:45.591)
Yeah! Side note, that is another bone to pick with the scale of mild, moderate, severe, right? Because in a way it's like, when I think mild, I think of bland food. And then I go, excuse you, I don't wanna be bland either. The scale and the moderate, nothing fun is moderate. I'm sorry, moderation is so fucking boring. All the words, all the words, severe, moderate, or mild, all of them, I'm not a fan of.

David (01:08:10.547)
If you take, no, if you take the word happiness and then apply the scale words after happiness, and if it doesn't make sense, it's a bad scale.

Isabelle Richards (01:08:18.787)
Yes, my gosh.

David (01:08:20.238)
Happiness 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. It's like, I can make sense of that. Maybe 5 is more or 1 is... whatever. Like happiness, like low, medium, high. It's like, okay, that makes sense. Happiness, mild, moderate, severe? That doesn't even make sense!

Isabelle Richards (01:08:31.118)
Mm-hmm.

Isabelle Richards (01:08:37.058)
Again, it's a storm warning. Like what the fuck? Yeah, fuck you. I, yeah, no. Yes, no, that's messed up. Okay, so really fast before I forget, and we also don't have to keep going down this road, but something I also learned is so, you you get that and then there's like a solid chunk of pages that are just like next step recommendations, right? So like,

David (01:08:39.65)
Yes.

thank you

Isabelle Richards (01:09:02.661)
due diligence, this person's job is to kind of like be up on the latest treatments and groups and places to refer you to. And so I actually got a ton of cool data about local resources, which I was really a fan of. I will say I did have a little point of pride. I read all the tips and I was like, oh, not to say that like, I was like, oh, something shiny has way more. I was like, that's like what this sheet says is like.

literally a fraction of an episode of Something Shiny in terms of what it has given me of data. Right. So I was like, OK, I'm not learning a whole time, which is a little disappointed, but makes me feel good about the work we're doing. I'm like, OK, like we're doing a lot more. And, you know, she accidentally left off the tips for autism and she goes, oh, like I'll send them back to you. And I was like, OK, but like, what are they? And I was so confused. And she goes, well, technically it's not a tip. It's just unmasking is really, really, really important.

and finding a tribe of people who love you for you and building your sense of your own amazingness and your own community. She was really so beautifully affirming. I also burst into tears at that moment because just hearing her say, she's like, truthfully, she said something that I love and I'm never going to forget. She goes, the only place masking actually helps people is job interviews. Everywhere else, she's like, it's actually not helpful.

It's anti-helpful. is harmful to you over time. And there's research to support this. So just like, it sucks, but the one place right now still it could help you is a job interview because it sucks, but that's like the land of first subjective impressions and really, side note, can we just talk about how awful job interviews are? Because job interviews are like, no, it's like, eyewitness assessment. It's like known to be the least effective way of measuring.

someone's ultimate performance. It's so biased. It's so messed up. Unless you're giving case examples and you have like standardized and that's bullshit too. Anyway, yeah. Okay, please say more.

David (01:10:58.904)
Hold on, hold on. No, no, wait, wait. I am awesome at this. I am absolutely awesome at this. And I've been on both ends. I'm privileged enough to have sat in horrible interviews, but now I get to hire people and it's like, yeah, and I feel like I am awesome at this.

Isabelle Richards (01:11:07.855)
Yes.

Isabelle Richards (01:11:13.861)
That's true! That's true!

That's true. Actually, David, will say I was awesome at it too. But let's hear what you think you're awesome at it.

David (01:11:23.84)
It's like it's very easy if you have like if you've been to college like you're smart or if you haven't been to college I kind of believe you're smart. So so like both of those things are true Okay, and so like you want to work with me. That's a plus because I like working with people great and then and then it really goes to Could I hang out with you? Like

Isabelle Richards (01:11:46.831)
That's what I mean. Like that is a cool feature. Yeah, okay.

David (01:11:49.762)
And then I have, wait, wait, and then I have like massive curveball questions that I ask people just to see what they're gonna do because I have to go off script to see what someone does when they're off script. So like a couple years ago, one of interview questions I asked was like, assuming your role as therapist is to help people in the world is crisscrossed with rivers of madness, what is your task with a client? Like there is no right answer for that, but like I wanna hear someone's brain work and like how that like muffs this stuff together.

Isabelle Richards (01:11:58.309)
Mmm.

Isabelle Richards (01:12:10.885)
that's what I say. Case examples. got, yeah, like the only thing, this is reaching back to like industrial organizational days and when I used to work in a corporate setting, but yes, that's like the one thing that is valid is like ask people to think in front of you. know, like give them a problem to solve in front of you. Be like, what would you do when? Or let's say this happens, what's next? And then just listen to what they say, because that's the thing that shows you what they're really like.

as they think through something, you're also seeing how they communicate about how they're problem solving. That's good data. Yeah. Yeah.

David (01:12:44.352)
And then, but here's where it gets really weird, okay? I now, now that I'm like, now that I'm the hirer, now that I'm trying to employ people, now I can't ask questions that I really wanna know the answers to. And people don't know that I really wanna know the answers to these things. But like,

Isabelle Richards (01:13:02.073)
Like what, I know you can't ask about like age and location and like essentially protected categories, right? So anything to do with someone's self identity.

David (01:13:09.304)
Yeah, yeah, but I would love to go like, no, like are you, are you neurodivergent or someone in your family neurodivergent? I would love to know that and I can't ask that because if somebody is neurodivergent or knows somebody that neurodivergent, that is an asset to me. I see the ability to think outside of the box as a great thing, especially for like what I'm hiring people to do. Like we're not, like therapists are not sitting inside of a box thinkers. This is like about creative problem solving kind of stuff.

Isabelle Richards (01:13:17.571)
Yeah.

Isabelle Richards (01:13:24.356)
Yeah.

Isabelle Richards (01:13:30.009)
Yeah.

Isabelle Richards (01:13:36.822)
Yes, yes

David (01:13:38.67)
But then again, like now I watch how many people don't trust me because I'm a person that's hiring and you can't trust what those people say because most hiring people are totally lying to you. And it's like, it's this thing where it like, I have to validate, like it is pretty nasty out there and employers are anxious, you're not gonna like them. It's all like dating all over again. Like if you like somebody, they're gonna like you. It's like, it's really strange.

Isabelle Richards (01:13:49.891)
Yeah.

David (01:14:05.302)
Every employer, whether or not they're going to hire or not, is terrified of rejection, which is such a complicated thing. It's very real. But I do see neurodiversity and awareness of that as a major asset. And if somebody comes in and talks about, I have dyslexia, it doesn't impact my life, but this is what I do with it. Or I have ADHD, it impacts my life, and this is how I dealt with this. Or I'm autistic, and this is what I... If somebody understands that, they have self esteem around it, they know what accommodations they need.

Isabelle Richards (01:14:16.985)
Yes.

Isabelle Richards (01:14:36.453)
Yeah.

David (01:14:36.718)
Or they know what they have and they know they need accommodations that are curious about what's the option. It's like, oh man, like that's...

Isabelle Richards (01:14:41.829)
Yeah, oh my gosh, yeah, that is a huge asset. Well, I mean, a way, self-ins... I think you and I both are, I'm heavily as in friends and certainly in clients and every human, I really have such a bias towards self-insight, you know, because that's the reason I do what I do, think. Side note, I have thought about, I'm like, how did an odd-EHD, really socially off kid, I say socially off as in...

not tracking with my peers and matching cues and really understanding things like subtext and vocal tone and facial expression. How is it that on this assessment, side note, on this assessment, I also had really high measures for lot of markers of autism, including sensory things, but I had really not congruent with autism measures for like empathy, which is messed up. Because I'm like, truthfully, the autistic people I know are empathic off the charts. It's just, it's

David (01:15:36.5)
Yeah, it's excess, it's too much empathy.

Isabelle Richards (01:15:37.889)
It's too much empathy. Yeah, so I was like, why do they call that? So anyway, that's a bone to back.

David (01:15:43.18)
you can cry if you step on an ant and then you can't keep walking.

Isabelle Richards (01:15:46.103)
Exactly. Or in my case, sob about a three legged hamster named Tiny Tim in a pet store for six hours because the hamster, named Tiny Tim and he had one, he was missing a leg. And I was like, no one's going to adopt Tiny Tim. I don't know why I've like pity Tiny Tim, but you know what I later figured out is I'm like, well, Tiny Tim probably had like had his leg chewed off by a litter mate or maybe his own mom. Cause hamsters are, crampsters are real rough.

David (01:15:58.67)
I don't know why. Ugh.

David (01:16:10.872)
Tschüss!

wanna give Tiny Tim a couple mini maracas and tape them to the front paws. I don't know why. It would fix everything.

Isabelle Richards (01:16:18.743)
I mean, be fair, Tiny Tim, Tiny Tim was the cutest little hamster. Tiny Tim, think if anything, the logic my mom gave at the time, which was actually, I think, pretty sweet as she goes, was you can tell he's loved because he is so fat. She is a fan public Polish immigrant who says, likely side note on the spectrum, doesn't know it, but you know, whatever. And she...

But Tiny Tim was a very, very well fed. You could tell he had lots of resource. had a big cage all to himself. So she was trying to give me reasons to believe that Tiny Tim was going to have a good life. And I was like, but Tiny Tim won't have as good a life unless I watch him every day and make sure he has a good life. But that's another point. I used to do that with ants too. So when you gave that ant example, I was like, I used to watch one ant walk until I knew for sure it made it back to its hill. I was like, this ants got to go. I got to make sure this ant gets there.

That's like how concerned I was about the... Anyway, I got off subject. What was I talking about? yeah. So I didn't track for that. And that's something I think that's an important nuance to name is that she go and I go, but wait, doesn't... I said, listen, this is going to be the thing I look at later and go, fuck, maybe I don't have autism. And again, that crushing feeling of, no, I found a thing and it doesn't track. Because again, I think it's like one of those things when you know...

David (01:17:20.268)
to me.

Isabelle Richards (01:17:41.975)
something resonates with you, the fear of being rejected from that community or kicked out or like told you don't belong is like extra excruciatingly painful. But I do think in and of itself that is such a big sign that you're closer to feeling heard and seen and validated, right? Because like if you didn't feel that way, you know what I mean? Like if the stakes wouldn't be that high, if I was, like put it this way, I'm like, I think if I wasn't autistic, I wouldn't care.

David (01:18:02.958)
100%.

Isabelle Richards (01:18:09.241)
the way I care about making sure I am autistic.

David (01:18:12.686)
We will fight for worth and identity.

Isabelle Richards (01:18:14.713)
Yes, exactly. And this is like worth building for me. But the point is that she, and I go, you know, afterwards I'm going to sit and like reread this and ruminate on it and go, my gosh, are you just being nice to me? Are you like skewing it? And she goes, no. She goes, you have to remember like any assessment, it's a snapshot of you in this present moment. Anyone who has more accommodations, like just like with ADHD, you like, you were not on your meds, I don't, you.

they have to skip your medication and caffeine the day, you know, like any stimulating med, the day you take that assessment for a reason because they're getting your baseline without, right? She goes, that's exactly how to think about like a different type of assessment. It's like you are now in your 40s. You have a community around you. You're very, you're, you know, you're literally doing work you love.

You have a family you love, you have friends, you have a tribe of really neurodivergent friendly people. She goes, you have a ton of accommodations and also you've studied human behavior for decades as a special interest. It tracks, literally you're professionally empathic. Of course you're gonna be, she's like, don't forget that that's the wholeness of this, right? It's not, she goes, and that's what we mean when we say high masking. We mean people who

will have a unique kind of presentation because they have maybe to some degree been either socially encouraged to, pressured to, or personally curious and interested in understanding aspects of communication or people and humans. There is a really great book she recommended called An Earthling's Guide to Humaning.

David (01:20:03.423)
my god that sounds amazing.

Isabelle Richards (01:20:04.247)
The title alone, was like, that is exactly my feelings. I appreciate it. Anyway, I know we should probably wrap up.

David (01:20:08.992)
one thing I do want to crowdsource if I can, because we have a lot of shiny people out there that I know have resources and have experienced things that I want to know more about. And specifically right now, I feel like my fidget game is off. I feel like I was super on top of fidgets right about three years before the pandemic and since then I'm off. So if anyone listening,

Isabelle Richards (01:20:12.441)
Yes.

Isabelle Richards (01:20:21.059)
Yes!

Isabelle Richards (01:20:29.997)
Mm-hmm.

David (01:20:37.314)
has a new fidget or has a fidget that they really like or an old fidget that they made that they would like to send us. I would love you to send a picture of your fidget or just tell us what your fidget is. Please send that to our website as well. Where should they send that?

Isabelle Richards (01:20:46.307)
Yes!

Isabelle Richards (01:20:50.009)
They'll, you know what, let's make a new page for it and then we'll keep posting the results so we'll just show you, like it'll become a resource. Do you know what I'm saying? Like we can show what the resource is. It's somethingshinypodcast.com slash fidget or maybe fidget love, fidget, what do you think? Fidget love, fidget love. Somethingshinypodcast.com slash fidget love. And I will name, we're not just talking about,

David (01:21:09.996)
Pitch at love.

Isabelle Richards (01:21:18.501)
fit like we could even I this is this is off record but like I could make categories we could have like big gross motor fidgets and little fidgets and like water-based fidgets and like sand-based fidgets

David (01:21:30.114)
do that after. Otherwise I won't know where to my fidgets and I'll get complicated enough to send it in. And let's start with some of our favorite fidgets.

Isabelle Richards (01:21:35.247)
Totally love it. Yeah, so we will do that after.

Isabelle Richards (01:21:40.269)
yes, okay, so my favorite fidgets, okay. Yes, let's do that. All right. Bye David, I love you, have a great, you. Wait, don't log off yet though.

David (01:21:42.574)
Oh no no, on the page, I gotta end. Okay. Bye, I'll see you in two weeks!