WEBVTT

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Welcome back, everyone,

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to This Week in Privacy,

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our weekly series where we discuss the

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latest updates with what we're working on

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within the Privacy Guides community,

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and this week's top stories in the data

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privacy and cybersecurity space,

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including allegations that WhatsApp is not

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end-to-end encrypted,

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France in the UK restricting some online

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tools for minors,

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TikTok's new US ownership, and more.

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I'm Jonah, and with me today is Nate.

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How are you doing today, Nate?

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I'm good.

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I'm good.

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How are you?

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I'm doing excellent.

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Thank you.

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For those of you who don't know,

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Privacy Guides is a nonprofit which

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researches and shares privacy-related

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information,

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and we facilitate a community on our forum

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and matrix where people can ask questions

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and get advice about staying private

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online and preserving their digital

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rights.

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Before we dive into our first WhatsApp

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stories,

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I want to give some quick updates with

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what we've been working on at Privacy Guys

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this week.

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Why don't I start off by handing it

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over to you, Nate,

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to talk about the video side of things?

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Sure.

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There's not too much new with the videos.

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Let's see,

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the smartphone course for Android that

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We're adding on to this,

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so it's hard for me to know how

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to describe it.

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The smartphone course we're doing,

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the intermediate tier,

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the Android section is done.

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And I believe we're just trying to work

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out some technical issues with PeerTube.

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Once it's on PeerTube,

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we will be posting that for members.

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The iOS version we're hoping to have done

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next week.

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And Jordan has begun editing the private

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browsing video that I've been talking

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about.

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And that will hopefully also be coming out

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here

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soon and in the meantime i have moved

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on to scripting a video about private

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messaging so i'm excited to share that one

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with you guys and um again we've just

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been putting out a lot of clips we

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started putting out um

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horizontal clips as well,

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like regular aspect ratio clips on the

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Privacy Guide Shorts channel.

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So I know a lot of you guys,

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it's a really common thing when we do

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these kind of news shows that people want

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something where they can share it quickly

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and easily in just that story with people.

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So definitely check that out if that's

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something that you would like.

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nice um in other privacy guides news

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things have been again being pretty active

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on our forum lately lots of good

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discussions going on i know that you nate

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and freya as well have been working on

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a lot of news brief articles lately um

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so those have been coming out um other

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stuff is still being worked on again

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behind the scenes but i know i've been

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talking to em about a big project that

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She has been working on for the past

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few weeks now,

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and that's coming out relatively soon.

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Hopefully,

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within the next few weeks or so,

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we'll have more updates to share with you

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on the stream about that.

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But yeah, lots of progress is being made,

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lots of big plans for the site and

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for the videos in twenty twenty six,

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especially as we get into the new year.

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I feel like a lot of people who

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have been working on all this stuff have

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been feeling pushed pretty hard lately.

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We've been doing a lot of work,

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but hopefully it all pays off and people

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like it and we can reach new people

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with all of this privacy stuff.

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But in terms of specific updates,

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I don't think we've pushed a new release

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of the website on GitHub or anything like

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that.

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So no changes to the recommendations or

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anything so far.

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But yeah,

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all of that stuff is still being worked

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on in the background.

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And if you are hoping to see something

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in particular, definitely join our forum,

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join the community and talk with us a

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bit about what you want to see because

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a lot of the stuff that we're doing

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is really

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built on this community and what you all

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want to see and what would make the

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most impact in the privacy rights space.

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With all these updates out of the way,

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I think we can move on to some

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of the biggest news stories that we've

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seen in privacy and security in the past

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week.

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I know you wanted to start off with

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the headline story here,

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so why don't I pass it off to

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you, Nate, to talk about that.

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Yeah.

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Sounds good.

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Let's talk about WhatsApp.

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So, uh, WhatsApp for,

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I'm sure most of our listeners know,

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you know,

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it's a encrypted messenger brought to you

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from Meta,

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the same people who make Facebook and

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Instagram and well bought Instagram.

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And, um,

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Yeah, it's WhatsApp, as far as we know,

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is end-to-end encrypted and it uses the

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signal protocol.

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So there are a lot of concerns about

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the metadata collection of WhatsApp.

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But up until now, we've always believed,

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well, the content itself is encrypted,

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which is better than nothing.

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Although there is now a new lawsuit that

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alleges that, no, actually,

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that's not the case.

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And they don't mean that in like a,

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well,

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technically kind of sort of like they mean

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it literally like, no,

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it is not end-to-end encrypted.

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And this lawsuit claims that if you are

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a meta or WhatsApp employee,

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all you need to do to access the

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messages is you send a task, which is,

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I guess,

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just what they call like their internal

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tickets or requests and metas internal

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systems.

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You send a task to a meta engineer

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and you just say, hey,

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I need access to these users messages for

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whatever reason.

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And they say that the engineering team

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will then grant access,

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often without any scrutiny at all,

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and the workers' workstation will then

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have a new window or widget that they

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can pull up any WhatsApp users' messages

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based on the user's ID number.

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which is a unique number.

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And then once they have the access,

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you can read messages.

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They say there's no separate decryption

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step.

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It's just available right there,

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which I'll come back to that, I guess.

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They say that these messages are

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commingled with additional messages from

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unencrypted sources.

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Not entirely sure what that means.

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Maybe they're talking about the DMA.

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I think WhatsApp now has to

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federate or combine with other third-party

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messengers as part of the DMA.

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But I could be wrong about that.

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I'm speculating.

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They also say messages appear almost as

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soon as they are communicated.

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So this is essentially a real-time tool.

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And they say the access is unlimited and

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you are able to go back indefinitely in

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time to view messages all the way back

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to the user's first messages when they

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open the account,

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including messages the users believe they

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have deleted.

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So it is important to note that this

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lawsuit does not provide any technical

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details to back up these claims.

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They say that there were some courageous

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whistleblowers and –

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Yeah, I mean, obviously,

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Meta is disputing this.

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They say that these claims are, quote,

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categorically false and absurd.

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And they even say WhatsApp has been

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encrypted using the Signal protocol for a

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decade.

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So, yeah,

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this is definitely a big if-true kind of

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moment.

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And it's very concerning because WhatsApp

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is...

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incredibly popular around the world here

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in the U S not so much,

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but in other parts of the world,

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in Europe, in Asia,

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it's incredibly popular.

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And again, up until now,

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I want to reiterate,

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we have concerns with WhatsApp.

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I'm not saying it's great and you should

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use it, but at least it was like,

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well, you know,

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at least the messages themselves are

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encrypted.

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And that's something that's more than we

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can say for SMS or anything like that.

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And apparently we can't even say that now,

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uh, potentially.

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So yeah,

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The only other thought I wanted to point

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out is I mentioned the whole widget thing

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where they say there's no separate

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decryption step.

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In theory,

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that doesn't necessarily mean the messages

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aren't encrypted because maybe the

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decryption is happening within the widget.

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However,

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the whole point of end-to-end encryption

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is that that shouldn't be possible

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regardless,

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whether they're being stored in plain

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text,

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whether they're being stored encrypted.

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The whole point of end-to-end encryption

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is that the only people who should have

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access are the ends.

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And the server is not supposed to be

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one of those ends, cough, cough, Zoom.

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Sorry,

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I had to take a shot at them

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for that one.

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But yeah, like I said,

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this really is big if true and would

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really be bad because of WhatsApp's really

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large user base.

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I think that's a really good point you

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just said about how the server shouldn't

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be one of the ends,

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especially because we know with WhatsApp

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in particular,

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but also with some other end-to-end

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encrypted messengers,

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Most notably, iMessage,

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unless you have advanced data protection

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enabled,

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even if end-to-end encryption is working

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perfectly fine,

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very often they will have these backup

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features which are not end-to-end

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encrypted,

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and that potentially acts as a backdoor

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for service providers to get into it.

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As far as I know,

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that is the case with WhatsApp,

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and that is a potential way that this

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could be true without the...

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end-to-end encryption of the transmission

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itself being broken.

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Maybe they have a way to access these

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backups easily.

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But again, that's speculation.

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I think it's important to remember with

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this story,

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and actually one of our community members

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just left a comment about this as well,

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which is that this is...

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a legal complaint right now it's not at

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the stage where any evidence has been

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presented at all there's no technical

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evidence within the document that's been

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shared that demonstrates any sort of back

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door or that there's any sort of

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compromise with the encryption of whatsapp

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um so

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That being said,

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with an app like WhatsApp that's closed

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source and completely under the control of

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Facebook, this is always a danger,

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especially because Facebook has this

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history of extensive metadata collection,

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extensive...

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you know, just general data collection,

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actually.

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And they are a company that's built

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entirely on this like data driven

00:10:14.442 --> 00:10:16.524
advertising model where collecting as much

00:10:16.563 --> 00:10:19.645
data as they can is really paramount to

00:10:19.666 --> 00:10:20.265
their business.

00:10:22.164 --> 00:10:26.870
That creates a situation where it's very

00:10:26.890 --> 00:10:28.774
hard to trust that they've implemented

00:10:28.894 --> 00:10:30.777
end-to-end encryption correctly,

00:10:30.817 --> 00:10:32.238
that they're not trying to weaken it

00:10:32.379 --> 00:10:33.179
behind the scenes,

00:10:33.200 --> 00:10:34.701
or that this is completely impossible.

00:10:34.761 --> 00:10:36.124
So I don't think that this is...

00:10:37.465 --> 00:10:38.385
out of the question.

00:10:38.885 --> 00:10:40.106
But again, this hasn't been proven.

00:10:41.347 --> 00:10:42.808
This just goes to show, I think,

00:10:42.889 --> 00:10:46.032
that encryption in these apps needs to be

00:10:46.871 --> 00:10:48.173
completely verifiable.

00:10:48.394 --> 00:10:50.075
It needs to be open source,

00:10:50.174 --> 00:10:52.636
it needs to use standard protocols,

00:10:52.677 --> 00:10:54.138
and it can't just be a matter of

00:10:54.217 --> 00:10:56.600
trust in the publisher of these apps

00:10:56.620 --> 00:10:57.139
themselves.

00:10:57.900 --> 00:10:59.162
Compared to a messenger like

00:10:59.782 --> 00:11:01.844
Signal, which is open source,

00:11:02.104 --> 00:11:03.885
like if this story had come out about

00:11:03.946 --> 00:11:06.807
Signal right now, many people,

00:11:06.868 --> 00:11:07.788
security experts,

00:11:07.889 --> 00:11:10.811
auditors could be pouring over that source

00:11:10.850 --> 00:11:11.251
code,

00:11:11.951 --> 00:11:13.533
trying to see if there's any way that

00:11:13.572 --> 00:11:15.115
this could be true, right?

00:11:15.154 --> 00:11:16.436
And that just isn't possible with

00:11:16.515 --> 00:11:16.956
WhatsApp.

00:11:16.995 --> 00:11:18.618
And that's the danger of using these

00:11:18.697 --> 00:11:22.441
proprietary closed source applications

00:11:22.500 --> 00:11:24.543
like this for your communications instead

00:11:24.582 --> 00:11:27.504
of more secure alternatives.

00:11:28.932 --> 00:11:30.332
Um,

00:11:30.352 --> 00:11:31.933
the other thing I wanted to say about

00:11:31.994 --> 00:11:35.416
this whole WhatsApp story is that even if

00:11:35.456 --> 00:11:36.116
this isn't true,

00:11:36.177 --> 00:11:38.958
even if they can't read your messages

00:11:38.979 --> 00:11:39.599
themselves,

00:11:40.779 --> 00:11:42.600
it's well known at this point that

00:11:42.640 --> 00:11:45.403
WhatsApp is not doing anything in terms of

00:11:46.062 --> 00:11:47.823
preventing the collection of metadata,

00:11:48.083 --> 00:11:49.745
which is, um, you know,

00:11:49.785 --> 00:11:51.606
data about who you're talking with data

00:11:51.626 --> 00:11:53.888
about when you're using the app, um,

00:11:54.347 --> 00:11:54.889
all of that stuff.

00:11:54.908 --> 00:11:56.409
That's not like the message content

00:11:56.470 --> 00:11:56.870
itself.

00:11:56.929 --> 00:11:57.149
Right.

00:11:57.591 --> 00:11:57.990
And so.

00:12:00.995 --> 00:12:01.216
I mean,

00:12:01.697 --> 00:12:04.700
there's this famous quote from a U.S.

00:12:04.720 --> 00:12:06.642
government official where he goes like,

00:12:06.682 --> 00:12:09.865
we kill people based on metadata, right?

00:12:09.926 --> 00:12:11.648
Because they don't actually need the

00:12:12.328 --> 00:12:13.690
content of your messages.

00:12:14.150 --> 00:12:16.332
If people have access to this data,

00:12:16.352 --> 00:12:17.875
they can infer a lot about you,

00:12:18.416 --> 00:12:19.236
who you talk to.

00:12:19.876 --> 00:12:21.638
says a lot about what you're probably

00:12:21.698 --> 00:12:22.198
talking about,

00:12:22.259 --> 00:12:24.120
especially if you're doing it on a regular

00:12:24.159 --> 00:12:25.260
basis or anything like that.

00:12:25.301 --> 00:12:27.062
And all of that can be determined without

00:12:27.081 --> 00:12:28.503
breaking end-to-end encryption at all.

00:12:28.864 --> 00:12:30.644
And that's part of why I think WhatsApp

00:12:30.745 --> 00:12:33.726
is such a dangerous application to use

00:12:33.767 --> 00:12:37.990
because none of that metadata is

00:12:38.029 --> 00:12:38.590
protected.

00:12:38.811 --> 00:12:43.553
And Facebook is the last company on earth

00:12:43.673 --> 00:12:46.416
who I would trust with that metadata in

00:12:46.456 --> 00:12:46.995
question.

00:12:47.397 --> 00:12:47.576
So...

00:12:49.099 --> 00:12:49.980
Even if it's not true,

00:12:51.922 --> 00:12:53.923
I would really encourage people to not use

00:12:54.224 --> 00:12:55.284
WhatsApp personally.

00:12:55.424 --> 00:12:58.347
But yeah, if it is true,

00:12:58.368 --> 00:12:59.889
that is even worse.

00:13:00.250 --> 00:13:01.230
We will have to keep an eye on

00:13:01.270 --> 00:13:03.293
this story for sure because it is a

00:13:03.373 --> 00:13:05.054
big if true moment.

00:13:05.154 --> 00:13:05.875
Absolutely.

00:13:08.293 --> 00:13:08.594
Yeah,

00:13:08.614 --> 00:13:09.715
I agree with everything you just said.

00:13:09.754 --> 00:13:11.197
This is one of the reasons, like,

00:13:11.797 --> 00:13:13.359
we know that open source is not the

00:13:13.458 --> 00:13:14.239
end-all be-all.

00:13:14.320 --> 00:13:15.721
It doesn't guarantee that something is

00:13:15.760 --> 00:13:16.481
private or secure.

00:13:16.881 --> 00:13:17.442
But like you said,

00:13:17.522 --> 00:13:19.644
if this was an allegation made against,

00:13:19.683 --> 00:13:22.226
like, Signal or SimpleX, like,

00:13:22.807 --> 00:13:24.008
this wouldn't even really be a story

00:13:24.067 --> 00:13:25.629
because we could, I mean,

00:13:25.870 --> 00:13:26.410
I certainly could,

00:13:26.431 --> 00:13:27.532
and I don't know enough code for that,

00:13:27.572 --> 00:13:27.711
but

00:13:28.192 --> 00:13:30.033
we as a community could easily just go

00:13:30.072 --> 00:13:31.313
pour through the source code and be like

00:13:31.333 --> 00:13:32.914
yeah that's not what's happening here we

00:13:32.934 --> 00:13:36.596
can we can prove that's not happening um

00:13:36.615 --> 00:13:39.197
but yeah and and um i i i

00:13:39.217 --> 00:13:40.418
do thank that listener for pointing out

00:13:40.458 --> 00:13:42.058
like yes these are allegations they

00:13:42.078 --> 00:13:43.940
haven't presented any evidence i will be

00:13:43.960 --> 00:13:46.422
really interested to see what sort of

00:13:46.621 --> 00:13:50.283
evidence uh they present if any um

00:13:51.083 --> 00:13:53.784
And yeah, it's, and like you said,

00:13:53.804 --> 00:13:56.726
the metadata is so, so, so important.

00:13:56.846 --> 00:13:59.008
The EFF has an amazing page where they

00:13:59.048 --> 00:14:00.849
talk about the importance of metadata and

00:14:00.869 --> 00:14:02.769
they use some examples, like, um,

00:14:02.788 --> 00:14:03.970
some really sensitive examples.

00:14:04.009 --> 00:14:06.471
Like if you call the suicide hotline and

00:14:06.951 --> 00:14:08.192
sorry, I probably just got us demonetized,

00:14:08.471 --> 00:14:09.272
but you know, you call the hall,

00:14:09.451 --> 00:14:10.932
the hotline at two in the morning from

00:14:10.972 --> 00:14:11.793
the golden gate bridge.

00:14:12.354 --> 00:14:13.875
Do you really need the contents of the

00:14:13.894 --> 00:14:15.835
phone call to know what was probably going

00:14:15.894 --> 00:14:16.275
on there?

00:14:16.475 --> 00:14:16.576
And

00:14:17.196 --> 00:14:17.735
Yeah,

00:14:17.755 --> 00:14:19.917
I forget who it was that said that

00:14:19.956 --> 00:14:20.157
quote,

00:14:20.177 --> 00:14:21.357
but that is a really famous quote you

00:14:21.378 --> 00:14:22.999
can find very easily with a web search.

00:14:24.318 --> 00:14:25.860
And that's what he was saying is exactly

00:14:25.879 --> 00:14:26.279
that.

00:14:26.320 --> 00:14:29.140
Metadata is so revealing that you can make

00:14:29.160 --> 00:14:30.841
a really convincing argument without the

00:14:30.881 --> 00:14:31.361
content.

00:14:31.581 --> 00:14:32.602
And at that point,

00:14:32.643 --> 00:14:34.563
you can authorize a military strike.

00:14:34.604 --> 00:14:34.884
Like, yeah.

00:14:34.923 --> 00:14:36.403
I mean,

00:14:36.484 --> 00:14:38.085
is it possible that something else is

00:14:38.125 --> 00:14:38.485
going on?

00:14:38.544 --> 00:14:39.666
Sure, of course, but...

00:14:40.679 --> 00:14:45.383
Yeah, it's pretty wild.

00:14:46.243 --> 00:14:50.004
It's good enough for most people, I think.

00:14:50.044 --> 00:14:50.385
For sure.

00:14:51.066 --> 00:14:52.886
This is why we encourage things like

00:14:54.488 --> 00:14:55.509
Signal, Simplex,

00:14:55.568 --> 00:14:57.769
things that are metadata resistant,

00:14:57.870 --> 00:14:59.010
are fully open source,

00:14:59.030 --> 00:15:01.471
that go above and beyond to protect users

00:15:01.511 --> 00:15:03.293
and their data, for sure.

00:15:03.312 --> 00:15:04.793
Before we move on really quick,

00:15:04.813 --> 00:15:05.553
we did get a question.

00:15:05.594 --> 00:15:07.274
How do you convince your peers to stop

00:15:07.395 --> 00:15:08.216
using WhatsApp?

00:15:08.235 --> 00:15:09.897
Do you have any thoughts on that, Nate?

00:15:10.769 --> 00:15:13.291
Send them this story.

00:15:13.350 --> 00:15:14.211
I think – okay.

00:15:15.032 --> 00:15:16.673
I mean there's – we get questions like

00:15:16.693 --> 00:15:17.474
this all the time,

00:15:17.494 --> 00:15:19.556
and they're great questions.

00:15:19.596 --> 00:15:20.176
But unfortunately,

00:15:20.196 --> 00:15:21.898
there is no one-size-fits-all answer.

00:15:22.618 --> 00:15:25.159
If we had the one secret answer that

00:15:25.179 --> 00:15:26.441
could get people to take their privacy

00:15:26.480 --> 00:15:29.342
seriously, we would have used it by now.

00:15:29.383 --> 00:15:31.404
But I think –

00:15:32.316 --> 00:15:32.676
One thing,

00:15:32.916 --> 00:15:34.297
so I'm thinking particularly in the

00:15:34.336 --> 00:15:37.538
context of like Europeans and Asians,

00:15:37.558 --> 00:15:39.500
like people where WhatsApp is like a

00:15:39.539 --> 00:15:41.201
common way to connect with businesses and

00:15:41.221 --> 00:15:41.760
stuff like that.

00:15:41.841 --> 00:15:43.642
And it's, I hate to say it,

00:15:43.662 --> 00:15:44.562
but it's quote unquote kind of a

00:15:44.602 --> 00:15:45.062
necessity.

00:15:45.623 --> 00:15:47.364
I think for those people, there's,

00:15:48.585 --> 00:15:49.485
I forget where I heard this,

00:15:49.504 --> 00:15:51.966
but somebody really floated the idea of

00:15:52.626 --> 00:15:55.568
instead of trying to get people off

00:15:55.769 --> 00:15:56.249
WhatsApp,

00:15:56.849 --> 00:16:00.671
trying to get them onto something else in

00:16:00.711 --> 00:16:01.572
the sense that like,

00:16:02.971 --> 00:16:04.634
You can keep WhatsApp and you can use

00:16:04.673 --> 00:16:07.116
it for when you have to contact a

00:16:07.157 --> 00:16:08.938
business in Germany or something,

00:16:09.679 --> 00:16:12.962
but all your friends are also on Signal

00:16:13.102 --> 00:16:14.966
and we could use that too.

00:16:15.265 --> 00:16:16.606
And then it turns into a thing where

00:16:16.647 --> 00:16:16.868
like,

00:16:17.995 --> 00:16:20.096
in my life, I still use SMS.

00:16:20.176 --> 00:16:21.275
I still have some services.

00:16:21.316 --> 00:16:22.576
I logged into a bank this morning that

00:16:22.657 --> 00:16:23.817
texted me an SMS code,

00:16:24.197 --> 00:16:24.918
not happy about it,

00:16:25.258 --> 00:16:26.317
but there's nothing I'm going to do about

00:16:26.378 --> 00:16:26.437
it.

00:16:26.918 --> 00:16:29.259
So I still have to use SMS.

00:16:29.320 --> 00:16:30.279
I can't stop using it,

00:16:30.639 --> 00:16:31.580
but I've got ninety,

00:16:31.660 --> 00:16:32.961
ninety five percent of my friends and my

00:16:32.980 --> 00:16:33.701
family on signal.

00:16:34.081 --> 00:16:35.101
And that's where I do most of my

00:16:35.142 --> 00:16:35.381
work.

00:16:35.422 --> 00:16:38.363
And so I think I think trying to

00:16:38.482 --> 00:16:39.884
encourage people rather than like, oh,

00:16:39.943 --> 00:16:40.923
stop using WhatsApp,

00:16:41.043 --> 00:16:42.404
try to encourage people like, oh,

00:16:42.445 --> 00:16:43.664
we're all over here on signal.

00:16:44.145 --> 00:16:45.426
And sorry,

00:16:45.446 --> 00:16:46.525
this just popped into my head real quick

00:16:46.546 --> 00:16:47.126
while I was talking.

00:16:48.495 --> 00:16:51.456
I have had amazing success by focusing on

00:16:51.716 --> 00:16:52.138
features.

00:16:52.398 --> 00:16:53.138
Like I hate to say it,

00:16:53.158 --> 00:16:53.758
but let's be honest.

00:16:54.219 --> 00:16:55.719
Most people don't care about privacy and

00:16:55.739 --> 00:16:57.779
security enough that that's their driving

00:16:57.799 --> 00:16:58.500
factor to move.

00:16:59.600 --> 00:17:01.000
It's just kind of a happy bonus.

00:17:01.461 --> 00:17:04.063
So my wife used to be a wizard

00:17:04.123 --> 00:17:05.143
at this and I swear to God,

00:17:05.182 --> 00:17:05.983
she should teach a class.

00:17:06.423 --> 00:17:08.285
She was so good at getting people to

00:17:08.325 --> 00:17:10.525
switch to signal and she never brought up

00:17:10.565 --> 00:17:11.526
privacy and like, you know,

00:17:11.546 --> 00:17:12.105
she'd mentioned like, yeah,

00:17:12.125 --> 00:17:13.247
it's this encrypted messenger,

00:17:13.567 --> 00:17:13.946
but like

00:17:14.386 --> 00:17:16.127
It's got bigger, you know,

00:17:16.167 --> 00:17:18.089
bigger attachment sizes and we're

00:17:18.109 --> 00:17:19.069
comparing to SMS here.

00:17:19.089 --> 00:17:20.050
So I don't know how it compares to

00:17:20.090 --> 00:17:20.431
WhatsApp,

00:17:20.451 --> 00:17:22.332
but like it's got bigger attachment sizes.

00:17:22.372 --> 00:17:23.093
We can send gifts,

00:17:23.133 --> 00:17:24.794
we can send reactions because this is

00:17:24.814 --> 00:17:26.115
before RCS was a thing.

00:17:26.174 --> 00:17:28.076
It's like all these amazing quality of

00:17:28.096 --> 00:17:28.655
life features.

00:17:28.695 --> 00:17:30.057
And I swear to God, five minutes later,

00:17:30.136 --> 00:17:31.198
I would get a text from the person

00:17:31.218 --> 00:17:32.038
she was talking to like, Hey,

00:17:32.057 --> 00:17:32.679
I'm on signal now.

00:17:32.699 --> 00:17:34.440
I'm like, damn,

00:17:34.460 --> 00:17:35.401
I've been trying to get this person on

00:17:35.441 --> 00:17:36.240
signal for two years.

00:17:36.260 --> 00:17:37.001
How did you do this?

00:17:38.213 --> 00:17:38.834
So, yeah,

00:17:39.194 --> 00:17:40.756
I think that's probably unfortunately how

00:17:40.776 --> 00:17:42.257
we're going to get like, quote unquote,

00:17:42.277 --> 00:17:43.778
the average person to want to switch is

00:17:43.817 --> 00:17:46.200
by showing them the quality of life

00:17:46.220 --> 00:17:46.880
advantages.

00:17:47.119 --> 00:17:49.402
And, you know, yeah, absolutely.

00:17:49.422 --> 00:17:50.623
Figure out what signal does better than

00:17:50.663 --> 00:17:51.002
WhatsApp.

00:17:51.758 --> 00:17:52.438
I totally agree.

00:17:53.097 --> 00:17:54.598
You kind of stole the thing that I

00:17:54.618 --> 00:17:55.318
wanted to talk about,

00:17:55.378 --> 00:17:56.699
so I won't spend too long on it,

00:17:56.739 --> 00:17:59.880
but I mean, that is definitely my, my,

00:18:00.180 --> 00:18:02.240
I truly believe that like all of these

00:18:02.280 --> 00:18:03.260
private alternatives,

00:18:03.740 --> 00:18:05.162
pretty much in most of these sectors,

00:18:05.682 --> 00:18:06.862
if you really look at them and if

00:18:06.882 --> 00:18:08.143
you really start to use them,

00:18:09.242 --> 00:18:12.203
they are also quality of life improvements

00:18:12.243 --> 00:18:12.784
because

00:18:13.876 --> 00:18:16.218
I think people are fed up with technology

00:18:16.298 --> 00:18:17.798
and all of this surveillance and all of

00:18:17.837 --> 00:18:20.338
these anti-features that like all of our

00:18:20.358 --> 00:18:21.818
computers are doing things that we didn't

00:18:21.898 --> 00:18:24.119
ask them to do now or AI is

00:18:24.160 --> 00:18:25.900
being jammed into them or that it's

00:18:26.000 --> 00:18:26.621
popping up.

00:18:27.221 --> 00:18:30.422
It was annoying decades ago in Microsoft

00:18:30.442 --> 00:18:33.142
Word with Clippy and Copilot is just as

00:18:33.162 --> 00:18:34.863
annoying now in all of those products.

00:18:36.682 --> 00:18:39.384
People just want functional tools,

00:18:39.483 --> 00:18:39.804
I think,

00:18:39.884 --> 00:18:41.244
and focusing on that aspect

00:18:43.266 --> 00:18:44.487
I think that's probably the best way to

00:18:44.527 --> 00:18:46.528
drive adoption of these things because

00:18:46.608 --> 00:18:48.230
it's just, it's simpler,

00:18:48.309 --> 00:18:49.330
it's more reliable,

00:18:49.411 --> 00:18:51.853
and it works better in my experience.

00:18:51.932 --> 00:18:53.574
And finding ways that it works better than

00:18:53.614 --> 00:18:56.717
WhatsApp and focusing on that rather than

00:18:58.057 --> 00:19:00.118
trying to compare like the security

00:19:00.159 --> 00:19:01.140
features that they already have,

00:19:01.180 --> 00:19:01.641
like you said,

00:19:01.721 --> 00:19:03.102
I think that that is the way to

00:19:03.142 --> 00:19:03.221
go.

00:19:05.626 --> 00:19:08.367
Moving on to our next story here.

00:19:08.407 --> 00:19:10.368
This was reported by The Guardian.

00:19:10.608 --> 00:19:14.090
French lawmakers vote to ban social media

00:19:14.191 --> 00:19:15.832
use by under-fifteens.

00:19:18.071 --> 00:19:19.573
So this starts out,

00:19:19.633 --> 00:19:22.773
legislation which also bans mobile phones

00:19:22.794 --> 00:19:24.515
in high schools would make France the

00:19:24.615 --> 00:19:26.976
second country after Australia to take

00:19:27.135 --> 00:19:27.856
such a step.

00:19:29.742 --> 00:19:31.664
French lawmakers have passed a bill that

00:19:31.704 --> 00:19:33.246
would ban social media use by

00:19:33.286 --> 00:19:33.967
under-fifteens,

00:19:34.106 --> 00:19:36.308
a move championed by President Emmanuel

00:19:36.328 --> 00:19:39.211
Macron as a way to protect children from

00:19:39.332 --> 00:19:40.353
excessive screen time.

00:19:41.334 --> 00:19:43.375
The Lower National Assembly adopted the

00:19:43.435 --> 00:19:46.159
text by a vote of one-thirty to twenty-one

00:19:46.499 --> 00:19:48.840
in a lengthy overnight session from Monday

00:19:49.102 --> 00:19:49.642
to Tuesday.

00:19:50.042 --> 00:19:51.384
It will now go to the Senate,

00:19:51.483 --> 00:19:53.246
France's upper house ahead of becoming

00:19:53.306 --> 00:19:53.506
law.

00:19:55.055 --> 00:19:55.996
The legislation,

00:19:56.415 --> 00:19:58.037
which also provides a ban on mobile phones

00:19:58.057 --> 00:19:58.817
in high schools,

00:19:58.958 --> 00:20:01.259
which I think is a great idea personally

00:20:01.319 --> 00:20:03.961
as a former educator,

00:20:04.882 --> 00:20:06.982
would make France the second country to

00:20:07.023 --> 00:20:09.204
take such a step following Australia's ban

00:20:09.244 --> 00:20:10.546
for under-sixteens in school.

00:20:10.766 --> 00:20:11.846
December.

00:20:11.886 --> 00:20:12.708
Social media has grown,

00:20:12.847 --> 00:20:14.288
so is concerned that too much screen time

00:20:14.348 --> 00:20:15.849
is harming child development and

00:20:15.890 --> 00:20:18.872
contributing to mental health models.

00:20:20.373 --> 00:20:22.835
And so my big question coming out of

00:20:22.875 --> 00:20:23.536
this, I think,

00:20:23.596 --> 00:20:26.538
is how they plan to enforce this,

00:20:27.137 --> 00:20:28.940
because we've talked a lot in the past

00:20:29.019 --> 00:20:30.681
about age verification,

00:20:31.582 --> 00:20:33.063
and I know this is a huge issue

00:20:33.123 --> 00:20:34.083
in Australia right now,

00:20:34.163 --> 00:20:34.544
as is

00:20:34.983 --> 00:20:36.164
I mean, this article doesn't mention that,

00:20:36.184 --> 00:20:38.287
but they're the first country to really

00:20:39.327 --> 00:20:40.729
take an approach like this,

00:20:41.369 --> 00:20:44.531
banning not only very young children,

00:20:44.593 --> 00:20:46.894
but teenagers from social media.

00:20:49.115 --> 00:20:53.099
That's very challenging to do without

00:20:53.700 --> 00:20:55.501
these invasive age verification things

00:20:55.521 --> 00:20:57.123
that we have always been very concerned.

00:20:58.023 --> 00:21:00.185
against because age verification and ID

00:21:00.205 --> 00:21:03.067
verification it's not just a matter of

00:21:03.167 --> 00:21:07.671
like affecting children um it forces

00:21:07.790 --> 00:21:09.112
everyone who's signing up for these

00:21:09.152 --> 00:21:11.113
platforms to be verified which includes

00:21:11.192 --> 00:21:13.214
adults so there's no opt-out process here

00:21:13.914 --> 00:21:17.357
um and that's a very dangerous privacy

00:21:17.377 --> 00:21:18.959
concern how these IDs are going to be

00:21:19.019 --> 00:21:20.880
implemented in the first place I think and

00:21:20.900 --> 00:21:22.101
also um

00:21:23.769 --> 00:21:25.269
what data is going to be shared with

00:21:25.308 --> 00:21:26.369
all of these platforms.

00:21:26.430 --> 00:21:27.869
That's something that we'll have to keep

00:21:27.890 --> 00:21:28.210
an eye on.

00:21:28.289 --> 00:21:31.490
So I'm not seeing in this particular

00:21:31.590 --> 00:21:35.451
article how the French plan to deal with

00:21:35.491 --> 00:21:36.152
this question.

00:21:36.551 --> 00:21:38.732
I know that this is a pretty common

00:21:39.633 --> 00:21:41.493
issue with a lot of legislation like this,

00:21:41.614 --> 00:21:42.953
where lawmakers kind of

00:21:44.809 --> 00:21:47.750
put some arbitrary goal together without

00:21:47.851 --> 00:21:52.512
any steps or plan on how to make

00:21:52.553 --> 00:21:55.894
it happen in a reasonable, secure,

00:21:55.933 --> 00:21:56.775
and private way.

00:21:59.395 --> 00:21:59.976
But yeah,

00:22:00.016 --> 00:22:01.497
that's my biggest question out of this

00:22:01.817 --> 00:22:02.436
story.

00:22:03.196 --> 00:22:04.897
Did you have a chance to look into

00:22:05.897 --> 00:22:07.578
this story any more than that, Nate?

00:22:10.586 --> 00:22:14.209
No, just the article itself that you read.

00:22:16.470 --> 00:22:17.330
If I remember correctly,

00:22:17.391 --> 00:22:18.371
I don't have it pulled up in front

00:22:18.411 --> 00:22:19.090
of me like you do.

00:22:19.471 --> 00:22:20.432
If I remember correctly,

00:22:20.771 --> 00:22:22.833
they did say that towards the end,

00:22:22.873 --> 00:22:24.453
what you said there, where it's like, oh,

00:22:24.513 --> 00:22:26.515
they don't really have a plan for how

00:22:26.535 --> 00:22:27.915
they're going to implement this.

00:22:28.336 --> 00:22:29.296
That's something they're going to talk

00:22:29.336 --> 00:22:30.156
about next week.

00:22:31.277 --> 00:22:32.538
I do find that so funny.

00:22:33.038 --> 00:22:33.357
Yeah.

00:22:35.955 --> 00:22:36.895
My favorite example of this,

00:22:36.935 --> 00:22:38.297
New York City did that a few years

00:22:38.336 --> 00:22:40.857
ago where they banned the sale of internal

00:22:40.897 --> 00:22:42.038
combustion engine cars.

00:22:42.578 --> 00:22:45.400
And then like the next year they went,

00:22:45.740 --> 00:22:45.839
hey,

00:22:45.880 --> 00:22:46.721
where are we going to put all the

00:22:46.760 --> 00:22:49.501
chargers for these electric vehicles?

00:22:49.622 --> 00:22:51.583
And I'm just like, seriously,

00:22:51.722 --> 00:22:53.344
nobody had that conversation.

00:22:53.463 --> 00:22:54.304
Come on, guys.

00:22:55.724 --> 00:22:56.365
So, you know, yeah,

00:22:56.404 --> 00:22:57.605
it's and it goes to show.

00:22:58.885 --> 00:23:00.788
just this is something I harp on a

00:23:00.807 --> 00:23:01.407
lot personally.

00:23:01.428 --> 00:23:01.728
It's like,

00:23:02.269 --> 00:23:04.329
I think we need better tech literacy in

00:23:04.390 --> 00:23:05.570
general worldwide.

00:23:05.891 --> 00:23:08.252
And cause we, we have a lot of,

00:23:08.452 --> 00:23:09.173
I know I've said this before,

00:23:09.193 --> 00:23:10.454
but we have a lot of elderly people

00:23:10.535 --> 00:23:12.556
who, you know, to their defense,

00:23:12.655 --> 00:23:13.017
I get it.

00:23:13.076 --> 00:23:14.998
Like a lot of them existed in the

00:23:15.018 --> 00:23:16.778
days where like color TV was the newest,

00:23:16.798 --> 00:23:17.480
fanciest thing.

00:23:17.900 --> 00:23:19.961
And now we've got LLMs and that's,

00:23:20.082 --> 00:23:21.982
that's a lot to wrap your head around.

00:23:22.384 --> 00:23:23.243
But then on the other hand of this

00:23:23.364 --> 00:23:23.984
end of the spectrum,

00:23:24.005 --> 00:23:25.145
we've got these people who are,

00:23:26.526 --> 00:23:29.247
I love to cruise r slash tales from

00:23:29.287 --> 00:23:30.267
tech support on Reddit,

00:23:30.988 --> 00:23:32.807
but it also really makes me facepalm

00:23:32.827 --> 00:23:33.989
because on more than one occasion,

00:23:34.108 --> 00:23:36.289
I've seen stories like my Wi-Fi isn't

00:23:36.329 --> 00:23:36.710
working.

00:23:36.829 --> 00:23:38.069
And then when they're like, okay, well,

00:23:38.130 --> 00:23:38.990
are the lights on in the router?

00:23:39.010 --> 00:23:39.330
And they're like,

00:23:39.590 --> 00:23:40.411
I'm not at home right now.

00:23:41.250 --> 00:23:43.291
Well, of course your Wi-Fi is not working.

00:23:43.832 --> 00:23:44.292
Or, you know,

00:23:44.353 --> 00:23:46.192
I've also seen the ones where they're

00:23:46.212 --> 00:23:47.153
like, again, you know,

00:23:47.173 --> 00:23:48.013
my computer won't turn on.

00:23:48.034 --> 00:23:48.653
And it's like, okay, well,

00:23:48.673 --> 00:23:49.193
is it plugged in?

00:23:49.493 --> 00:23:50.275
I can't see under the desk.

00:23:50.295 --> 00:23:50.855
The lights are off.

00:23:52.162 --> 00:23:52.862
You don't say,

00:23:52.982 --> 00:23:54.463
and I've seen those stories multiple

00:23:54.523 --> 00:23:55.003
times.

00:23:55.104 --> 00:23:56.424
And so it's like multiple people,

00:23:56.744 --> 00:23:57.605
and that's just on Reddit,

00:23:57.705 --> 00:23:59.066
multiple people are having this issue.

00:23:59.467 --> 00:24:01.627
So I think my point being,

00:24:02.167 --> 00:24:03.689
we need better tech literacy,

00:24:04.250 --> 00:24:05.210
at least in the basics.

00:24:05.230 --> 00:24:06.451
I'm not saying everybody needs to know how

00:24:06.471 --> 00:24:07.912
to code and self-host their own

00:24:08.051 --> 00:24:10.213
everything, but just to understand...

00:24:10.733 --> 00:24:11.855
That like you were saying,

00:24:12.055 --> 00:24:12.576
that's a big thing.

00:24:12.615 --> 00:24:13.596
It's age verification.

00:24:13.636 --> 00:24:14.057
No, it's not.

00:24:14.117 --> 00:24:15.338
It's identity verification.

00:24:15.759 --> 00:24:16.500
And just to give credit,

00:24:16.539 --> 00:24:17.781
I got that one from Taylor Lorenz.

00:24:17.801 --> 00:24:19.063
And, you know,

00:24:19.143 --> 00:24:20.503
it's you're going to have to upload your

00:24:20.584 --> 00:24:22.606
ID to people watching this in France,

00:24:22.987 --> 00:24:24.848
regardless of your age and the UK,

00:24:24.868 --> 00:24:25.869
which we'll talk about in a minute.

00:24:25.910 --> 00:24:27.912
Like it's not just minors,

00:24:27.932 --> 00:24:29.113
because how else are they supposed to know

00:24:29.133 --> 00:24:29.973
that you're not a minor?

00:24:29.993 --> 00:24:30.074
Yeah.

00:24:30.913 --> 00:24:33.115
And a lot of these politicians just think

00:24:33.194 --> 00:24:34.434
like, oh, that's a technical problem.

00:24:34.474 --> 00:24:35.795
Just as one of my other friends likes

00:24:35.835 --> 00:24:36.055
to say,

00:24:36.295 --> 00:24:38.195
nerd harder and we'll find a solution.

00:24:38.236 --> 00:24:39.776
And it's like, no, there is no solution.

00:24:39.796 --> 00:24:40.855
There is no magic bullet.

00:24:41.195 --> 00:24:43.616
Technology is not magic.

00:24:45.136 --> 00:24:46.298
I feel like on this show,

00:24:46.317 --> 00:24:48.798
we've talked quite a bit about age

00:24:48.837 --> 00:24:50.739
verification and these ID verification

00:24:50.778 --> 00:24:51.259
problems.

00:24:51.378 --> 00:24:52.898
And I would definitely encourage people,

00:24:53.038 --> 00:24:55.500
if you are unfamiliar with some of those

00:24:55.519 --> 00:24:56.119
problems,

00:24:56.881 --> 00:24:59.584
with some of this topic to check out

00:24:59.963 --> 00:25:01.325
the interview that you did with Taylor

00:25:01.365 --> 00:25:01.625
Lawrence,

00:25:01.645 --> 00:25:03.227
because I think you really covered a lot

00:25:03.247 --> 00:25:05.490
of good stuff that was more focused on

00:25:05.529 --> 00:25:07.791
how that's going to affect the US and

00:25:07.811 --> 00:25:09.012
some legislation that's going on.

00:25:09.053 --> 00:25:10.454
But it really does apply to all of

00:25:10.474 --> 00:25:11.375
this stuff going on around.

00:25:11.997 --> 00:25:12.678
around the world.

00:25:13.117 --> 00:25:14.378
We see it not just in France and

00:25:14.398 --> 00:25:16.260
Australia, but the UK, for example,

00:25:16.280 --> 00:25:18.623
has very strict ID verification laws.

00:25:19.023 --> 00:25:20.184
It's becoming a real problem.

00:25:22.026 --> 00:25:26.851
Ignoring the implementation side of this,

00:25:29.442 --> 00:25:31.644
Do you have any opinions of your own

00:25:31.765 --> 00:25:34.866
on this social media ban for children in

00:25:34.967 --> 00:25:35.467
general?

00:25:35.527 --> 00:25:41.411
Is that something you support just as a

00:25:41.490 --> 00:25:42.412
general concept?

00:25:42.592 --> 00:25:44.053
Or what do you think?

00:25:44.554 --> 00:25:44.713
I mean,

00:25:44.733 --> 00:25:45.693
I have some thoughts on this if you

00:25:45.713 --> 00:25:45.854
don't,

00:25:45.894 --> 00:25:47.055
but I'll pass it off to you first.

00:25:47.275 --> 00:25:48.395
Oh, I have thoughts.

00:25:48.916 --> 00:25:50.877
My thoughts... Honestly,

00:25:50.917 --> 00:25:52.578
it's complicated because on the one

00:25:52.618 --> 00:25:52.919
hand...

00:25:55.519 --> 00:25:57.779
I, like most people,

00:25:57.920 --> 00:25:59.980
I do not neatly fit into one particular

00:26:00.761 --> 00:26:02.103
political label or another.

00:26:02.583 --> 00:26:05.044
I have thoughts that are left-leaning and

00:26:05.064 --> 00:26:05.884
thoughts that are right-leaning.

00:26:05.904 --> 00:26:07.505
And one of my more libertarian thoughts is

00:26:07.545 --> 00:26:09.586
that parents should be in charge of their

00:26:09.605 --> 00:26:09.967
kids.

00:26:10.106 --> 00:26:11.567
And I don't mean that in the sense

00:26:11.586 --> 00:26:11.948
of like, well,

00:26:11.968 --> 00:26:13.087
parents should just raise their kids.

00:26:13.188 --> 00:26:14.528
I mean like parents should have the

00:26:14.568 --> 00:26:17.390
autonomy and the freedom to decide if they

00:26:17.410 --> 00:26:18.611
think their kids are ready to see a

00:26:18.651 --> 00:26:19.751
movie, ready to play a game,

00:26:20.132 --> 00:26:21.752
ready to engage with the internet.

00:26:22.173 --> 00:26:23.574
I think parents should have that freedom.

00:26:24.513 --> 00:26:25.515
But at the same time,

00:26:25.694 --> 00:26:28.156
I think the internet is very distinctly

00:26:28.196 --> 00:26:30.558
different from a movie or a video game.

00:26:30.579 --> 00:26:32.500
Well, maybe not an online game,

00:26:32.540 --> 00:26:35.104
but like an offline game in the sense

00:26:35.144 --> 00:26:37.625
that the internet is a much,

00:26:37.705 --> 00:26:40.127
much bigger place with much more

00:26:40.167 --> 00:26:41.388
disturbing content on it.

00:26:42.289 --> 00:26:43.510
I'm sure whatever the worst thing you've

00:26:43.530 --> 00:26:44.491
seen in a horror movie is,

00:26:44.652 --> 00:26:45.893
there's probably something worse on the

00:26:45.913 --> 00:26:46.192
internet.

00:26:47.054 --> 00:26:49.775
And I think it's a lot to ask

00:26:49.816 --> 00:26:52.116
parents to constantly know,

00:26:52.257 --> 00:26:54.377
even if it's the most well-behaved,

00:26:54.458 --> 00:26:55.719
well-meaning, good kid,

00:26:56.858 --> 00:26:58.180
that doesn't necessarily mean that the

00:26:58.220 --> 00:27:00.020
people they're interacting with online are

00:27:00.101 --> 00:27:01.902
also acting in good faith.

00:27:01.922 --> 00:27:04.002
And I think that's a lot to put

00:27:04.063 --> 00:27:06.104
parents in the position of having to

00:27:06.223 --> 00:27:09.546
constantly try to monitor all of that.

00:27:09.566 --> 00:27:09.665
Yeah.

00:27:11.965 --> 00:27:13.448
It's tough because I don't want to take

00:27:13.468 --> 00:27:15.590
away the autonomy of the parents to make

00:27:15.631 --> 00:27:16.471
those choices,

00:27:16.811 --> 00:27:20.176
but that's also a lot of work for

00:27:20.217 --> 00:27:21.739
people who work full-time and may not

00:27:21.778 --> 00:27:23.582
necessarily have the tech skills and

00:27:23.602 --> 00:27:23.842
everything.

00:27:24.616 --> 00:27:25.718
Um, just one more thing real quick.

00:27:25.738 --> 00:27:27.058
Somebody here said in the comments that,

00:27:27.078 --> 00:27:27.338
you know,

00:27:27.739 --> 00:27:29.799
regulation is how we get clean water,

00:27:29.859 --> 00:27:31.642
clean food, you know, safe food.

00:27:32.021 --> 00:27:33.343
And it's obviously it's not perfect.

00:27:33.363 --> 00:27:33.542
You know,

00:27:33.583 --> 00:27:34.844
things get recalled all the time,

00:27:34.923 --> 00:27:36.825
but I think we can all agree.

00:27:36.845 --> 00:27:37.365
It's a lot better.

00:27:37.404 --> 00:27:39.686
The term snake oil comes from the old

00:27:39.727 --> 00:27:42.107
West days when people would literally roll

00:27:42.147 --> 00:27:44.048
into town with literal snake oil and be

00:27:44.068 --> 00:27:44.470
like, yeah,

00:27:44.490 --> 00:27:47.471
this will cure your cancer and arthritis

00:27:47.531 --> 00:27:48.152
and this, that,

00:27:48.172 --> 00:27:49.232
and the other and everything.

00:27:49.252 --> 00:27:49.472
And like,

00:27:49.492 --> 00:27:50.472
just give me your money and I'm going

00:27:50.492 --> 00:27:50.673
to be

00:27:51.473 --> 00:27:53.335
Fifty miles away by the time you realize

00:27:53.375 --> 00:27:54.615
I ripped you off and you don't have

00:27:54.655 --> 00:27:56.356
a way to get me because of the

00:27:56.457 --> 00:27:57.857
technology limitations at the time.

00:27:57.897 --> 00:28:00.319
And so regulations aren't always bad,

00:28:00.339 --> 00:28:02.461
but it's definitely – I don't know.

00:28:02.540 --> 00:28:03.141
I think it's a mix.

00:28:03.260 --> 00:28:04.842
I think there's pros and cons,

00:28:05.403 --> 00:28:06.383
and I don't really know what the right

00:28:06.442 --> 00:28:06.784
answer is.

00:28:07.183 --> 00:28:08.884
That comment that you pointed out is a

00:28:08.924 --> 00:28:10.365
good one because it does sum up a

00:28:10.445 --> 00:28:12.207
bit of how I feel about social media,

00:28:12.247 --> 00:28:14.246
which is –

00:28:14.642 --> 00:28:15.522
If it's such a problem,

00:28:15.663 --> 00:28:18.066
I think what we've seen in society is

00:28:18.086 --> 00:28:19.667
that this isn't a problem that only

00:28:19.708 --> 00:28:20.769
affects children.

00:28:21.190 --> 00:28:21.810
And personally,

00:28:21.851 --> 00:28:23.311
I don't think that children are...

00:28:25.555 --> 00:28:27.376
significantly worse off than anyone else

00:28:27.396 --> 00:28:29.038
who's constantly being exposed to these

00:28:29.077 --> 00:28:30.318
social media algorithms.

00:28:30.699 --> 00:28:31.960
And so from this perspective,

00:28:33.442 --> 00:28:35.242
we have food regulation,

00:28:35.262 --> 00:28:36.723
we have clean water regulation.

00:28:37.005 --> 00:28:39.767
Could we have algorithmic regulation that

00:28:39.787 --> 00:28:41.248
applies to all of these users of the

00:28:41.307 --> 00:28:45.391
platform to protect ourselves in general

00:28:45.431 --> 00:28:47.553
as a society against the harms of social

00:28:47.593 --> 00:28:47.833
media?

00:28:47.893 --> 00:28:48.894
I think that that could be

00:28:49.894 --> 00:28:54.258
an approach because I think what people

00:28:54.337 --> 00:28:57.859
don't think about or realize is that the

00:28:57.980 --> 00:28:59.740
algorithms that make up something like

00:28:59.780 --> 00:29:02.143
Facebook and Twitter are not

00:29:04.067 --> 00:29:06.469
like they're not necessary for social

00:29:06.489 --> 00:29:09.148
media to function um by the way facebook

00:29:09.489 --> 00:29:11.529
you know from a user's perspective was

00:29:11.549 --> 00:29:12.890
probably totally fine before they

00:29:12.950 --> 00:29:14.671
implemented like the news feed and stuff

00:29:14.750 --> 00:29:17.510
and people generally like twitter and the

00:29:17.570 --> 00:29:19.771
chronological ordering of tweets from only

00:29:19.811 --> 00:29:22.031
people that you follow before you know all

00:29:22.051 --> 00:29:23.712
this discovery stuff was baked in and it

00:29:23.732 --> 00:29:24.532
really tried to

00:29:25.413 --> 00:29:28.076
get you into these bubbles and echo

00:29:28.115 --> 00:29:30.759
chambers that I think is causing a lot

00:29:30.778 --> 00:29:32.601
of people harm, not just children.

00:29:32.881 --> 00:29:34.162
And I think we're focusing on children

00:29:34.182 --> 00:29:35.763
because children are, you know,

00:29:35.784 --> 00:29:38.507
growing up in this and it's preventing

00:29:38.547 --> 00:29:40.709
them from like building the skills that

00:29:40.729 --> 00:29:42.951
they need to survive in adult society,

00:29:42.991 --> 00:29:43.571
unfortunately,

00:29:43.612 --> 00:29:46.414
that most people like adults already have.

00:29:46.535 --> 00:29:46.756
But

00:29:48.413 --> 00:29:51.096
beyond that like i think the harms to

00:29:51.655 --> 00:29:54.018
all people are pretty apparent by social

00:29:54.038 --> 00:29:56.560
media and i think that some social media

00:29:56.601 --> 00:30:00.964
platforms like um mastodon for example

00:30:02.205 --> 00:30:06.670
demonstrate that building communities that

00:30:06.710 --> 00:30:08.872
you can interact with in a more healthy

00:30:08.951 --> 00:30:09.972
way um

00:30:11.355 --> 00:30:12.057
It's possible.

00:30:12.136 --> 00:30:14.843
And I think that regulation on that front,

00:30:14.963 --> 00:30:16.887
which would make these big tech companies

00:30:18.131 --> 00:30:18.511
more

00:30:20.270 --> 00:30:21.951
like Mastodon, for example,

00:30:21.991 --> 00:30:23.332
and Mastodon isn't the perfect social

00:30:23.352 --> 00:30:23.972
media, by the way,

00:30:24.012 --> 00:30:25.792
but it's a direction that we could go

00:30:25.853 --> 00:30:25.972
in.

00:30:28.855 --> 00:30:29.674
We need to, I think,

00:30:29.835 --> 00:30:32.496
get back to the internet being a place

00:30:32.576 --> 00:30:37.377
where we share information and we share

00:30:37.417 --> 00:30:41.019
knowledge and make it less of a place

00:30:41.039 --> 00:30:43.901
where we just consume whatever information

00:30:44.221 --> 00:30:46.541
the overlords of the internet have put on

00:30:46.582 --> 00:30:47.942
the screen in front of us, right?

00:30:48.262 --> 00:30:49.883
It needs to be more intentional,

00:30:49.923 --> 00:30:51.003
and I think that that's the sort of

00:30:51.044 --> 00:30:52.703
thing which could be done through

00:30:52.824 --> 00:30:57.566
legislation that doesn't involve age

00:30:57.586 --> 00:30:58.807
verification or anything like that,

00:30:58.967 --> 00:30:59.606
because I think

00:31:02.007 --> 00:31:04.948
Banning algorithms like that is really a

00:31:05.048 --> 00:31:10.371
lot like enforcing clean food and water

00:31:10.550 --> 00:31:12.872
regulations and that sort of thing.

00:31:13.352 --> 00:31:14.932
It's a public health issue at the end

00:31:14.951 --> 00:31:15.311
of the day.

00:31:18.729 --> 00:31:21.069
I also definitely agree with the sentiment

00:31:21.089 --> 00:31:23.711
that I've seen from some people in the

00:31:23.750 --> 00:31:26.131
chat and also in this article from some

00:31:26.151 --> 00:31:27.672
people that they interviewed,

00:31:27.711 --> 00:31:30.772
which is that bands like this,

00:31:32.153 --> 00:31:33.913
they are overly simplistic,

00:31:36.535 --> 00:31:39.796
as this group said in the article here.

00:31:40.355 --> 00:31:41.655
But it's also a form of digital

00:31:41.715 --> 00:31:42.297
paternalism.

00:31:42.336 --> 00:31:43.436
I think that is true.

00:31:45.103 --> 00:31:48.025
It's not really the government's place to

00:31:51.487 --> 00:31:52.867
make these decisions, I think,

00:31:53.147 --> 00:31:54.489
in terms of parenting children.

00:31:54.648 --> 00:31:55.949
And you got into this before.

00:31:56.048 --> 00:31:56.910
And it is hard.

00:31:59.250 --> 00:31:59.971
Exactly like you said,

00:32:00.412 --> 00:32:02.772
there is a balance because there's so much

00:32:02.813 --> 00:32:05.174
going on in people's lives.

00:32:06.415 --> 00:32:08.717
It's so common for both parents to be

00:32:08.797 --> 00:32:09.336
working now.

00:32:09.356 --> 00:32:10.738
Some people have to work two jobs.

00:32:12.426 --> 00:32:13.979
Society is just crazy at the moment,

00:32:14.019 --> 00:32:14.221
right?

00:32:14.522 --> 00:32:14.885
And so...

00:32:16.541 --> 00:32:17.462
Yes, it's hard,

00:32:17.522 --> 00:32:19.044
but I don't think that that should be

00:32:19.064 --> 00:32:20.825
an excuse for the government to step in

00:32:21.605 --> 00:32:22.185
in this way.

00:32:22.286 --> 00:32:23.867
The government should be stepping in and

00:32:23.907 --> 00:32:26.390
making people's lives easier so that they

00:32:26.430 --> 00:32:27.609
have time to parent their children

00:32:27.651 --> 00:32:28.411
themselves, right?

00:32:28.471 --> 00:32:30.252
That would be an ideal outcome here.

00:32:30.752 --> 00:32:33.674
What if we all made enough money where

00:32:33.694 --> 00:32:36.076
we had the time to educate our children

00:32:36.116 --> 00:32:36.557
properly?

00:32:36.616 --> 00:32:38.459
What if the government tried to do

00:32:38.499 --> 00:32:39.298
something about that?

00:32:39.680 --> 00:32:40.559
I don't know.

00:32:41.121 --> 00:32:41.701
Just a thought.

00:32:44.550 --> 00:32:45.632
So, yeah,

00:32:45.711 --> 00:32:46.953
I don't think it's when somebody could

00:32:46.993 --> 00:32:48.455
actually afford to stay home and be a

00:32:48.516 --> 00:32:48.855
parent.

00:32:49.135 --> 00:32:51.659
Right.

00:32:51.679 --> 00:32:51.940
Now,

00:32:52.079 --> 00:32:56.464
I especially I really agree with and Henry

00:32:56.505 --> 00:32:57.685
used to say this a lot on surveillance

00:32:57.705 --> 00:32:59.367
report to exactly what you just said that

00:32:59.387 --> 00:33:03.292
the we keep focusing on like social media

00:33:03.313 --> 00:33:04.534
is bad for kids social media is bad

00:33:04.554 --> 00:33:04.953
for kids.

00:33:05.996 --> 00:33:07.277
social media is bad for everyone.

00:33:07.597 --> 00:33:07.738
Yeah.

00:33:07.778 --> 00:33:08.838
Social media is bad for me.

00:33:09.019 --> 00:33:11.740
I notice it even like when I spend

00:33:11.760 --> 00:33:13.041
too much time on social media,

00:33:13.122 --> 00:33:14.503
I start to get that FOMO and I

00:33:14.564 --> 00:33:15.484
start to, you know,

00:33:16.065 --> 00:33:17.445
it really starts to consume me.

00:33:17.486 --> 00:33:17.826
And I,

00:33:17.846 --> 00:33:19.167
I'm sure that some people are more

00:33:19.228 --> 00:33:20.769
susceptible to that than others.

00:33:20.808 --> 00:33:23.310
Like I know some people that their

00:33:23.351 --> 00:33:24.932
relationship with Facebook is like my

00:33:24.972 --> 00:33:26.413
relationship with my phone where like half

00:33:26.433 --> 00:33:27.474
the time I'm like, where is it?

00:33:27.535 --> 00:33:28.175
I don't even remember.

00:33:28.256 --> 00:33:28.395
But

00:33:30.682 --> 00:33:32.243
These are companies that are paid full

00:33:32.284 --> 00:33:33.744
time to figure out how can we keep

00:33:33.765 --> 00:33:34.944
people on the platform longer.

00:33:35.746 --> 00:33:36.546
That is their job.

00:33:36.665 --> 00:33:37.547
I really want to stress that.

00:33:38.487 --> 00:33:40.208
However good you are at your job,

00:33:40.709 --> 00:33:43.529
that's how good they are.

00:33:43.891 --> 00:33:45.010
It's just not a fair fight is what

00:33:45.030 --> 00:33:45.550
I'm getting at.

00:33:46.471 --> 00:33:48.692
It's really unfortunate that we keep

00:33:48.712 --> 00:33:49.273
focusing on...

00:33:50.855 --> 00:33:52.596
This is bad for kids and ignoring the

00:33:52.616 --> 00:33:54.679
fact that everyone is impacted by this.

00:33:54.699 --> 00:33:55.500
And I think it would be,

00:33:56.039 --> 00:33:56.579
to your point,

00:33:56.619 --> 00:33:57.641
if we're going to regulate anything,

00:33:57.661 --> 00:33:59.542
we need to regulate the companies and the

00:33:59.782 --> 00:34:02.644
algorithms and make it less harmful for

00:34:02.765 --> 00:34:03.224
everyone.

00:34:03.306 --> 00:34:05.227
And then maybe we wouldn't need to resort

00:34:05.247 --> 00:34:07.228
to these extreme measures.

00:34:07.249 --> 00:34:08.469
The other thing I would say about this

00:34:08.528 --> 00:34:11.070
ban is that we are in the...

00:34:11.972 --> 00:34:14.432
really early days of the internet still if

00:34:14.452 --> 00:34:16.092
you really think about it um and this

00:34:16.132 --> 00:34:18.014
was i i didn't really think about this

00:34:18.034 --> 00:34:19.594
a lot until i heard um i think

00:34:19.634 --> 00:34:21.414
i was watching a hank green video where

00:34:21.454 --> 00:34:22.815
he said something to this effect where

00:34:23.215 --> 00:34:27.396
like in in terms of like society in

00:34:27.496 --> 00:34:29.836
general like this many to many

00:34:29.998 --> 00:34:32.257
communication system that we have with the

00:34:32.297 --> 00:34:34.858
internet is extremely new and if you

00:34:34.898 --> 00:34:36.619
really think about it like most people

00:34:36.639 --> 00:34:37.840
have probably only been

00:34:39.393 --> 00:34:41.275
in like the social media mass

00:34:41.295 --> 00:34:43.954
communication landscape for maybe ten,

00:34:44.295 --> 00:34:45.356
fifteen years.

00:34:46.275 --> 00:34:48.317
I know like you've probably been on the

00:34:48.336 --> 00:34:48.817
internet longer,

00:34:48.836 --> 00:34:50.597
like some of us people who have been

00:34:50.637 --> 00:34:53.197
into technology have been a bit longer

00:34:53.237 --> 00:34:53.579
than that.

00:34:53.639 --> 00:34:55.559
But for most people,

00:34:55.978 --> 00:34:57.840
it's only been around like fifteen years

00:34:57.960 --> 00:35:00.940
and like some whole countries even today

00:35:00.981 --> 00:35:02.922
are still like just getting connected to

00:35:02.942 --> 00:35:04.541
the internet and just getting phones and

00:35:04.561 --> 00:35:06.282
it's just becoming a problem.

00:35:06.322 --> 00:35:06.742
Like this is

00:35:07.643 --> 00:35:11.606
an extremely new development in society

00:35:11.666 --> 00:35:13.067
and I don't think that we know like

00:35:13.106 --> 00:35:15.789
what works and what doesn't work right and

00:35:15.849 --> 00:35:17.389
I don't think that we've given enough

00:35:17.471 --> 00:35:19.172
thought into all of this stuff because

00:35:19.192 --> 00:35:22.014
there are so many benefits to to be

00:35:22.054 --> 00:35:23.715
honest there's so many benefits to even

00:35:23.934 --> 00:35:26.197
social media if it's if it's done properly

00:35:26.396 --> 00:35:30.079
um that outright banning it just doesn't

00:35:30.119 --> 00:35:31.481
make a ton of sense to me but

00:35:32.322 --> 00:35:34.824
clearly something has to be done and I

00:35:34.864 --> 00:35:35.143
hope that

00:35:36.422 --> 00:35:40.764
other governments outside France and in

00:35:40.824 --> 00:35:43.704
Australia try and think about these more

00:35:43.844 --> 00:35:46.405
nuanced approaches to how all of this

00:35:46.445 --> 00:35:50.867
technology can be improved and a better

00:35:50.907 --> 00:35:53.686
tool in like people's lives rather than

00:35:53.726 --> 00:35:56.248
just like seeing the problems that these

00:35:56.568 --> 00:35:58.387
especially these American big tech

00:35:58.407 --> 00:35:59.989
companies have created on the internet and

00:36:00.028 --> 00:36:00.248
like

00:36:01.646 --> 00:36:03.889
quickly reacting to it and just banning it

00:36:03.969 --> 00:36:04.349
outright.

00:36:05.130 --> 00:36:06.911
I think there's some middle ground to be

00:36:07.552 --> 00:36:09.393
found here that I would really try to

00:36:09.413 --> 00:36:12.335
encourage.

00:36:12.376 --> 00:36:12.976
Totally agree.

00:36:13.376 --> 00:36:14.436
With that out of the way,

00:36:14.938 --> 00:36:15.418
in a little bit,

00:36:15.438 --> 00:36:17.639
we're going to talk about TikTok.

00:36:18.219 --> 00:36:19.221
But first,

00:36:20.021 --> 00:36:22.764
we're going to talk about stories from the

00:36:23.123 --> 00:36:23.244
UK.

00:36:25.139 --> 00:36:27.041
That is correct.

00:36:27.561 --> 00:36:29.864
So keeping with the vein of age-gating the

00:36:29.885 --> 00:36:30.344
internet,

00:36:31.226 --> 00:36:33.628
the UK House of Lords has voted to

00:36:33.688 --> 00:36:36.190
ban VPNs for children as the pressure on

00:36:36.251 --> 00:36:37.911
privacy tools increases.

00:36:39.233 --> 00:36:39.753
So this is...

00:36:40.804 --> 00:36:41.065
I mean,

00:36:41.525 --> 00:36:42.726
the headline kind of says it all.

00:36:42.846 --> 00:36:43.726
The House of Lords,

00:36:44.246 --> 00:36:46.166
I'm not intimately familiar with the UK's

00:36:47.307 --> 00:36:48.128
legislative system,

00:36:48.628 --> 00:36:51.349
but it's one part of their legislative

00:36:51.369 --> 00:36:51.730
branch.

00:36:51.829 --> 00:36:53.590
I believe they said the House of Commons

00:36:53.630 --> 00:36:54.971
is the other one, if I remember correctly.

00:36:54.990 --> 00:36:56.231
Yes, that's correct.

00:36:56.431 --> 00:36:56.851
Okay, yeah.

00:36:56.931 --> 00:36:57.612
So basically,

00:36:57.711 --> 00:36:59.092
the House of Lords has passed this.

00:36:59.172 --> 00:37:00.452
Now it's going to go on to the

00:37:00.472 --> 00:37:01.293
House of Commons.

00:37:01.974 --> 00:37:03.994
And I may be mixing this one up

00:37:04.014 --> 00:37:05.735
with France, but I want to say that...

00:37:07.197 --> 00:37:09.478
The president or prime minister or whoever

00:37:09.599 --> 00:37:10.980
has expressed support for this,

00:37:11.000 --> 00:37:12.382
so if it passes the House of Commons,

00:37:12.402 --> 00:37:14.302
that is probably not good.

00:37:15.824 --> 00:37:17.585
But the good news is it says here

00:37:17.606 --> 00:37:19.188
the labor government has a large majority

00:37:19.208 --> 00:37:19.728
in the commons,

00:37:20.028 --> 00:37:21.429
but it's not clear whether it will attempt

00:37:21.449 --> 00:37:23.112
to overturn the amendment or support it.

00:37:23.711 --> 00:37:24.871
So, yeah,

00:37:25.351 --> 00:37:27.172
this may face scrutiny or it may just

00:37:27.193 --> 00:37:27.893
fly right on through.

00:37:28.293 --> 00:37:29.112
We don't know at this time.

00:37:29.213 --> 00:37:31.193
But it says that the vote was passed

00:37:31.293 --> 00:37:33.454
two oh seven to one fifty nine and

00:37:33.474 --> 00:37:36.554
that within twelve months, VPNs,

00:37:36.574 --> 00:37:36.934
let's see,

00:37:37.295 --> 00:37:38.795
regulations which prohibit the provision

00:37:38.835 --> 00:37:40.954
to the UK children of a relevant VPN

00:37:40.994 --> 00:37:42.376
service must be enacted.

00:37:42.976 --> 00:37:44.996
And this is specifically in response to

00:37:45.076 --> 00:37:46.315
the Online Safety Act,

00:37:46.856 --> 00:37:48.797
which has not gone well.

00:37:50.277 --> 00:37:51.117
Within, God,

00:37:51.157 --> 00:37:53.018
I think within days of the Online Safety

00:37:53.057 --> 00:37:53.719
Act taking effect,

00:37:53.759 --> 00:37:56.119
there were stories about how a VPN could

00:37:56.139 --> 00:37:56.840
get around it.

00:37:57.659 --> 00:37:59.260
People were using their parents' IDs.

00:37:59.380 --> 00:38:00.581
I think some people were even using

00:38:00.641 --> 00:38:01.882
screenshots from video games,

00:38:02.061 --> 00:38:03.402
specifically the game Death Stranding.

00:38:03.422 --> 00:38:07.764
So yeah, that did not go over well.

00:38:09.485 --> 00:38:11.166
There was also, let me see,

00:38:11.206 --> 00:38:12.186
if I remember here,

00:38:12.385 --> 00:38:13.686
I think there was a second law.

00:38:13.766 --> 00:38:13.947
Again,

00:38:13.987 --> 00:38:15.327
I may be thinking of the France one.

00:38:15.407 --> 00:38:17.007
I read all of these stories yesterday,

00:38:17.027 --> 00:38:18.048
so they may have jumbled up in my

00:38:18.088 --> 00:38:18.668
mind a little bit.

00:38:20.293 --> 00:38:20.893
Um, yeah,

00:38:20.913 --> 00:38:21.994
I'm not seeing anything about that.

00:38:22.074 --> 00:38:25.894
So yeah, this is a, this is unfortunate.

00:38:25.934 --> 00:38:27.215
This is kind of like we were just

00:38:27.235 --> 00:38:28.076
saying it.

00:38:28.135 --> 00:38:32.538
And I love when governments just pile

00:38:32.557 --> 00:38:33.858
band-aids on top of each other.

00:38:34.119 --> 00:38:35.778
Like we passed the online safety act.

00:38:35.798 --> 00:38:36.800
Oh, that didn't work.

00:38:37.159 --> 00:38:39.039
Well, let's, let's ban VPNs.

00:38:39.139 --> 00:38:40.061
And then they're going to find a way.

00:38:40.121 --> 00:38:40.920
Cause it's a cat and mouse.

00:38:41.001 --> 00:38:42.342
They're going to find a way around VPNs.

00:38:42.802 --> 00:38:43.262
And you know,

00:38:43.282 --> 00:38:44.342
like we were just talking about a minute

00:38:44.362 --> 00:38:44.523
ago,

00:38:44.943 --> 00:38:46.603
the source of the issue is what harmful

00:38:46.643 --> 00:38:47.364
content online.

00:38:47.403 --> 00:38:47.643
Right.

00:38:47.764 --> 00:38:47.943
So.

00:38:49.672 --> 00:38:51.614
Why don't you address the content online?

00:38:51.635 --> 00:38:52.335
And to their defense,

00:38:52.355 --> 00:38:54.255
some of the stuff that's harmful,

00:38:54.416 --> 00:38:55.137
if harmful at all,

00:38:55.556 --> 00:38:56.498
is out of their reach.

00:38:56.858 --> 00:39:00.260
If a website is based in another part

00:39:00.280 --> 00:39:01.902
of the EU, India, America,

00:39:02.161 --> 00:39:03.603
they can't really do anything about that.

00:39:04.063 --> 00:39:05.005
But I don't know.

00:39:05.045 --> 00:39:06.465
This just feels to me like, oh,

00:39:06.565 --> 00:39:07.126
it didn't work.

00:39:07.226 --> 00:39:09.208
We need to add a Band-Aid.

00:39:10.666 --> 00:39:11.686
Yeah, it's a cat and mouse,

00:39:11.706 --> 00:39:12.807
so I don't know where they think this

00:39:12.827 --> 00:39:16.271
is going to end in its logical conclusion.

00:39:17.612 --> 00:39:18.192
And it's not great,

00:39:18.211 --> 00:39:22.856
because obviously VPNs are not a total

00:39:22.956 --> 00:39:23.657
anonymity tool.

00:39:23.697 --> 00:39:26.458
They definitely do get hyped up a little

00:39:26.478 --> 00:39:27.139
bit too much,

00:39:27.679 --> 00:39:29.081
especially in a lot of sponsor segments.

00:39:29.641 --> 00:39:31.463
But they do still have a legitimate use

00:39:31.503 --> 00:39:32.643
case, and they are...

00:39:33.840 --> 00:39:35.561
I would say they're an easy way to

00:39:35.581 --> 00:39:37.061
make some improvements to your privacy.

00:39:37.181 --> 00:39:38.643
Like a lot of the VPN providers we

00:39:38.682 --> 00:39:42.166
recommend have DNS block lists that will

00:39:42.186 --> 00:39:44.146
block known trackers, known ads,

00:39:44.186 --> 00:39:44.967
known malware.

00:39:45.527 --> 00:39:46.789
It will change your IP address,

00:39:46.809 --> 00:39:49.369
which is part of the way that companies

00:39:49.411 --> 00:39:50.311
fingerprint you online.

00:39:50.871 --> 00:39:52.813
And again, not perfect.

00:39:53.012 --> 00:39:54.353
Definitely leaves a lot to be desired,

00:39:54.414 --> 00:39:55.715
but it's a great start.

00:39:55.914 --> 00:39:57.195
And especially if your threat model is

00:39:57.215 --> 00:39:58.916
like you don't want your ISP selling your

00:39:59.356 --> 00:40:00.038
internet history,

00:40:00.438 --> 00:40:01.619
you don't want your ISP knowing where you

00:40:01.659 --> 00:40:03.099
go online, which is totally fair.

00:40:04.760 --> 00:40:06.420
Yeah, I do think they serve a purpose,

00:40:06.440 --> 00:40:07.782
and it's really unfortunate to see them

00:40:07.882 --> 00:40:10.722
losing a major benefit,

00:40:10.762 --> 00:40:11.963
which is that you don't need to turn

00:40:12.023 --> 00:40:12.523
over ID,

00:40:12.543 --> 00:40:14.224
because that kind of defeats the whole

00:40:14.244 --> 00:40:15.523
privacy thing, in my opinion.

00:40:15.684 --> 00:40:18.826
I think that's about all I got on

00:40:18.846 --> 00:40:19.166
that one.

00:40:19.905 --> 00:40:20.465
Absolutely.

00:40:22.746 --> 00:40:24.088
I saw this story earlier...

00:40:26.327 --> 00:40:28.851
this week and I sent out some posts

00:40:28.891 --> 00:40:32.215
on social media about it that have been

00:40:33.617 --> 00:40:36.222
doing pretty popular.

00:40:39.065 --> 00:40:40.307
But basically I was talking about these

00:40:40.327 --> 00:40:41.588
VPN bans in

00:40:42.329 --> 00:40:42.949
in general,

00:40:43.010 --> 00:40:45.891
because I think that a lot of people,

00:40:45.952 --> 00:40:47.411
and especially techie people in this

00:40:47.472 --> 00:40:50.434
space, hear about bans on technology.

00:40:50.514 --> 00:40:52.034
They hear about a VPN ban,

00:40:52.175 --> 00:40:54.576
or they hear about a ban on end-to-end

00:40:54.615 --> 00:40:56.175
encrypted messengers, like Signal,

00:40:56.275 --> 00:40:57.757
if something like chat control were to be

00:40:57.817 --> 00:40:58.217
rolled out.

00:40:58.536 --> 00:41:00.057
And they think, like, oh,

00:41:00.257 --> 00:41:02.139
I can still continue to use these tools,

00:41:02.498 --> 00:41:02.739
and...

00:41:05.179 --> 00:41:05.880
And I'll be fine.

00:41:06.221 --> 00:41:07.541
Even if this affects other people,

00:41:08.983 --> 00:41:10.824
I'm smart enough to know how to bypass

00:41:10.844 --> 00:41:11.563
all of this stuff,

00:41:12.005 --> 00:41:13.425
and it won't be an issue for me.

00:41:13.465 --> 00:41:14.826
And that's what we've seen with age

00:41:14.846 --> 00:41:15.867
verification rolling out.

00:41:15.887 --> 00:41:18.228
A lot of people are just using VPNs,

00:41:18.407 --> 00:41:18.628
right?

00:41:18.929 --> 00:41:19.489
But I think...

00:41:21.300 --> 00:41:24.202
The problem with banning and criminalizing

00:41:24.262 --> 00:41:25.063
very common,

00:41:25.724 --> 00:41:28.306
very mundane and very legitimately useful

00:41:28.347 --> 00:41:30.469
technologies like VPNs, for example,

00:41:30.648 --> 00:41:36.255
is that it makes crimes very easy to

00:41:36.275 --> 00:41:37.596
commit and very commonplace.

00:41:37.635 --> 00:41:39.056
And this is the first step in what

00:41:39.077 --> 00:41:41.360
we see in these authoritarian regimes.

00:41:41.940 --> 00:41:45.161
regimes where, you know,

00:41:45.702 --> 00:41:48.163
they try to fill the books with as

00:41:48.222 --> 00:41:48.903
many, you know,

00:41:48.943 --> 00:41:51.085
potential crimes or violations as possible

00:41:51.144 --> 00:41:54.927
so that even if you're doing something

00:41:55.027 --> 00:41:56.847
completely unrelated to the crime at hand,

00:41:56.867 --> 00:41:59.128
like if you're using a VPN and the

00:41:59.168 --> 00:42:00.389
government decides they don't like it,

00:42:00.650 --> 00:42:02.471
like if you're protesting your government,

00:42:02.490 --> 00:42:03.831
for example, in the UK,

00:42:05.393 --> 00:42:07.614
they can very easily like look at your

00:42:07.653 --> 00:42:08.273
technology.

00:42:08.293 --> 00:42:09.155
They can look at you

00:42:09.795 --> 00:42:12.516
being a VPN user or using this end-to-end

00:42:12.536 --> 00:42:13.657
encrypted tool or whatever,

00:42:13.677 --> 00:42:15.177
if any of these laws pass,

00:42:15.518 --> 00:42:17.500
and they can use that fact against you,

00:42:18.340 --> 00:42:21.862
not only in the courts as a crime,

00:42:21.902 --> 00:42:25.364
but also in the courts of public opinion,

00:42:25.423 --> 00:42:26.085
so to speak,

00:42:26.164 --> 00:42:29.085
where they can really label you as

00:42:29.306 --> 00:42:31.608
something which you probably aren't.

00:42:32.568 --> 00:42:34.869
And people will judge you for that.

00:42:34.969 --> 00:42:37.530
And that comes from making these

00:42:37.570 --> 00:42:38.452
legitimate tools

00:42:40.097 --> 00:42:44.699
seem evil and villainizing them and really

00:42:44.818 --> 00:42:46.019
just changing their reputation.

00:42:46.760 --> 00:42:48.240
It affects people in a lot of ways,

00:42:48.260 --> 00:42:49.860
and it affects people in non-technical

00:42:49.880 --> 00:42:50.081
ways.

00:42:50.101 --> 00:42:51.342
It's the big point that I wanted to

00:42:51.382 --> 00:42:51.822
make here.

00:42:52.902 --> 00:42:55.724
So I just... Yeah,

00:42:55.864 --> 00:42:58.364
I would be worried about any...

00:42:58.385 --> 00:42:59.646
This is the same argument that we had

00:42:59.666 --> 00:43:00.726
with Shack Control a while ago,

00:43:00.746 --> 00:43:02.027
which I'm sure will crop up again,

00:43:02.106 --> 00:43:04.047
but with any of these total bans on

00:43:04.088 --> 00:43:04.748
technology...

00:43:05.891 --> 00:43:07.193
I just want people to remember that if

00:43:07.233 --> 00:43:08.034
you live in these countries,

00:43:08.054 --> 00:43:09.755
this is not just a technical issue.

00:43:09.996 --> 00:43:13.099
And you need to be keeping an eye

00:43:13.119 --> 00:43:15.900
on this stuff and keeping up with it

00:43:15.920 --> 00:43:17.643
and speaking out against it because this

00:43:17.702 --> 00:43:19.824
will end up affecting everyone.

00:43:19.925 --> 00:43:22.547
It's a bit of a slippery slope argument,

00:43:22.567 --> 00:43:24.648
but we're definitely at the top of some

00:43:24.688 --> 00:43:26.250
slippery slopes right now.

00:43:29.032 --> 00:43:29.353
Yeah.

00:43:29.773 --> 00:43:30.534
And the other thing I want to add

00:43:30.614 --> 00:43:31.155
onto that, that's,

00:43:31.255 --> 00:43:32.835
that's all absolutely true.

00:43:32.856 --> 00:43:33.675
And you're absolutely right.

00:43:33.695 --> 00:43:34.836
A lot of the time we don't think

00:43:34.876 --> 00:43:36.518
about the non-technical side of this,

00:43:37.079 --> 00:43:39.579
but also I personally, I really hate that.

00:43:39.619 --> 00:43:40.081
Like, Oh,

00:43:40.121 --> 00:43:41.202
well I know how to get around this.

00:43:41.802 --> 00:43:42.382
That's great.

00:43:42.922 --> 00:43:43.742
A lot of people don't.

00:43:44.143 --> 00:43:45.204
And privacy, you know,

00:43:45.644 --> 00:43:47.525
privacy is a team sport and privacy is

00:43:47.545 --> 00:43:48.065
a human right.

00:43:48.126 --> 00:43:48.686
Like, right.

00:43:48.726 --> 00:43:50.447
Like we have that in the merch store.

00:43:50.467 --> 00:43:51.168
For those of you who don't know,

00:43:51.208 --> 00:43:51.849
we have a merch store

00:43:51.869 --> 00:43:53.190
shop.privacyguides.org.

00:43:53.510 --> 00:43:55.530
And we have a shirt that's super awesome.

00:43:55.871 --> 00:43:56.931
That has article twelve.

00:43:56.952 --> 00:43:57.193
I don't,

00:43:57.853 --> 00:43:58.492
God, I'm such a nerd.

00:43:58.532 --> 00:43:59.233
I have this memorized.

00:43:59.594 --> 00:44:01.594
It's the nineteen forty eight United

00:44:01.614 --> 00:44:02.994
Nations Declaration of Human Rights.

00:44:03.375 --> 00:44:05.195
Article twelve says that everyone has a

00:44:05.235 --> 00:44:05.775
right to privacy.

00:44:05.856 --> 00:44:06.576
I don't have it memorized.

00:44:06.596 --> 00:44:07.596
That's going to be my new project is

00:44:07.615 --> 00:44:08.817
I'm going to memorize the actual article.

00:44:09.197 --> 00:44:12.717
But it's like it says like this is

00:44:12.737 --> 00:44:13.438
a human right.

00:44:13.458 --> 00:44:15.358
We're talking about like water, food,

00:44:15.699 --> 00:44:17.360
shelter, the right to live,

00:44:17.500 --> 00:44:19.940
the right to education and also the right

00:44:19.960 --> 00:44:20.541
to privacy.

00:44:21.101 --> 00:44:22.702
And so if we're going to believe that,

00:44:22.742 --> 00:44:23.583
if we're going to sit here and say,

00:44:23.784 --> 00:44:24.965
yes, privacy is a right,

00:44:25.246 --> 00:44:27.289
the government is infringing on my rights

00:44:27.329 --> 00:44:28.570
by taking away my privacy,

00:44:28.990 --> 00:44:31.534
then that's really messed up to say, oh,

00:44:31.574 --> 00:44:34.217
well, this doesn't affect me, so meh.

00:44:34.577 --> 00:44:36.519
No, everybody should have that right.

00:44:36.659 --> 00:44:37.981
Even if you know how to get around

00:44:38.061 --> 00:44:39.543
it, lots of people don't.

00:44:40.003 --> 00:44:40.164
Yeah.

00:44:41.436 --> 00:44:41.856
At this point,

00:44:41.936 --> 00:44:43.677
I don't care what form your compassion

00:44:43.697 --> 00:44:43.938
takes.

00:44:43.958 --> 00:44:44.478
If you're like, well,

00:44:44.498 --> 00:44:45.898
then I'm going to teach people how to

00:44:45.918 --> 00:44:46.360
get around it.

00:44:46.559 --> 00:44:47.860
There may be legal repercussions for that.

00:44:47.880 --> 00:44:48.681
I'm not endorsing that.

00:44:49.141 --> 00:44:50.322
You do you.

00:44:50.342 --> 00:44:51.342
But whether that's I'm going to teach

00:44:51.362 --> 00:44:52.182
people how to get around it,

00:44:52.222 --> 00:44:53.123
whether that's I'm going to write my

00:44:53.182 --> 00:44:54.864
politician, whatever it is,

00:44:55.284 --> 00:44:56.644
don't just sit back and go, oh, well,

00:44:56.664 --> 00:44:57.925
this doesn't affect me, so I don't care.

00:44:58.405 --> 00:45:00.186
Because what's that classic poem about the

00:45:00.206 --> 00:45:00.626
Holocaust?

00:45:00.827 --> 00:45:01.907
First, they came for everyone else.

00:45:01.927 --> 00:45:02.867
And by the time they came for me,

00:45:02.887 --> 00:45:03.628
there was no one left.

00:45:03.708 --> 00:45:03.789
And

00:45:04.750 --> 00:45:06.331
I wouldn't be surprised if that happens in

00:45:06.371 --> 00:45:08.693
some places because we keep saying it

00:45:08.713 --> 00:45:09.936
doesn't affect me until it does,

00:45:10.135 --> 00:45:11.396
and it's incredibly selfish,

00:45:11.717 --> 00:45:12.518
and we need to get out of that.

00:45:12.539 --> 00:45:13.099
Sorry.

00:45:14.721 --> 00:45:18.463
While we're on the topic of these bans

00:45:18.483 --> 00:45:19.664
of technology for children,

00:45:19.724 --> 00:45:21.985
I saw this comment in our YouTube chat

00:45:23.365 --> 00:45:23.766
where they said,

00:45:23.786 --> 00:45:24.686
as far as I can tell,

00:45:25.027 --> 00:45:27.688
EIDAS will be used for age verification

00:45:27.708 --> 00:45:28.389
within the EU.

00:45:29.150 --> 00:45:29.550
Basically,

00:45:29.590 --> 00:45:34.393
these digital ID systems will allow

00:45:34.432 --> 00:45:37.554
websites to request some sort of ID on

00:45:37.934 --> 00:45:39.615
your phone or computer and only get

00:45:39.655 --> 00:45:41.597
certain information about it in a

00:45:41.617 --> 00:45:43.478
supposedly privacy-respecting way.

00:45:44.458 --> 00:45:46.300
And I think we've talked a bit about

00:45:46.320 --> 00:45:47.320
digital IDs in the past,

00:45:47.340 --> 00:45:48.561
but I just want to reiterate.

00:45:49.302 --> 00:45:51.583
This is certainly a better solution than

00:45:51.623 --> 00:45:53.284
the current setup that a lot of websites

00:45:53.324 --> 00:45:54.885
are doing where you have to scan your

00:45:54.925 --> 00:45:56.766
face and you have to scan pictures of

00:45:56.786 --> 00:45:58.106
your ID because that is

00:45:59.128 --> 00:46:00.068
a privacy nightmare.

00:46:00.128 --> 00:46:01.431
It's also a security nightmare.

00:46:01.451 --> 00:46:04.393
We've already seen, I think,

00:46:04.474 --> 00:46:06.896
multiple data breaches of all of these age

00:46:06.916 --> 00:46:09.740
verification and ID databases being

00:46:09.820 --> 00:46:10.061
leaked.

00:46:10.101 --> 00:46:11.483
And now all of this public information is

00:46:11.563 --> 00:46:11.922
out there.

00:46:11.983 --> 00:46:14.686
That is a huge security problem.

00:46:15.246 --> 00:46:16.728
It's an economic problem because there

00:46:16.748 --> 00:46:17.750
will be identity theft,

00:46:17.829 --> 00:46:19.072
like the government is enabling

00:46:19.530 --> 00:46:21.992
extremely scary stuff by promoting these

00:46:22.492 --> 00:46:23.233
technologies.

00:46:23.434 --> 00:46:25.235
And in the US here,

00:46:25.335 --> 00:46:28.838
I know that the government uses vendors

00:46:28.858 --> 00:46:33.001
like real.me or all these other identity

00:46:33.021 --> 00:46:33.842
verification companies.

00:46:33.942 --> 00:46:34.181
ID.me?

00:46:34.762 --> 00:46:36.284
Yes, thank you.

00:46:36.463 --> 00:46:36.985
Something like that.

00:46:37.324 --> 00:46:38.666
I'm confusing it with real ID,

00:46:39.065 --> 00:46:40.827
which is separate.

00:46:42.108 --> 00:46:42.449
But yeah,

00:46:42.809 --> 00:46:44.429
they use these for official government

00:46:44.449 --> 00:46:46.492
things instead of making their own ID and

00:46:46.532 --> 00:46:47.233
login system.

00:46:47.273 --> 00:46:47.713
And like,

00:46:49.802 --> 00:46:51.434
that is extremely concerning from a

00:46:51.494 --> 00:46:52.541
security perspective.

00:46:52.601 --> 00:46:52.804
But,

00:46:54.175 --> 00:46:55.655
The overall point that I want to make

00:46:55.815 --> 00:46:58.637
with this is that it's not only about

00:46:58.677 --> 00:47:01.677
the privacy of the individual transaction

00:47:01.717 --> 00:47:02.539
being made here.

00:47:02.579 --> 00:47:05.519
This is also a censorship issue because to

00:47:05.559 --> 00:47:07.021
get this ID in the first place,

00:47:07.081 --> 00:47:08.942
you need to give away a lot of

00:47:09.001 --> 00:47:10.561
your information.

00:47:11.182 --> 00:47:12.523
So that's a privacy issue right there.

00:47:12.782 --> 00:47:13.664
Maybe in the EU,

00:47:14.403 --> 00:47:15.945
a lot of people already have national ID

00:47:15.965 --> 00:47:16.164
cards.

00:47:16.184 --> 00:47:17.385
You might be used to it.

00:47:18.126 --> 00:47:18.846
Here in the US,

00:47:18.885 --> 00:47:21.606
that isn't necessarily commonplace.

00:47:22.126 --> 00:47:22.668
I know that...

00:47:23.347 --> 00:47:24.668
The current administration is really

00:47:24.708 --> 00:47:25.489
pushing for it to be,

00:47:25.510 --> 00:47:27.251
and they're really supporting everyone

00:47:27.952 --> 00:47:29.534
getting a password and having digital IDs

00:47:29.554 --> 00:47:30.875
on their phone,

00:47:30.914 --> 00:47:31.896
which is a whole separate thing.

00:47:31.956 --> 00:47:36.000
But the issue being created is that as

00:47:36.039 --> 00:47:39.101
these governments try to age-gate as many

00:47:39.161 --> 00:47:41.184
services and as many sites as possible,

00:47:41.264 --> 00:47:47.290
as they can possibly justify –

00:47:43.346 --> 00:47:45.007
um it really creates a wall around all

00:47:45.047 --> 00:47:46.827
of these things that the government has

00:47:46.907 --> 00:47:49.648
absolute control over whether you can

00:47:50.829 --> 00:47:53.230
cross that wall and access that site and

00:47:53.269 --> 00:47:55.510
they can do something like revoke your id

00:47:55.550 --> 00:47:59.552
if they want to for whatever reason um

00:47:59.952 --> 00:48:03.132
kick you off of practically half the

00:48:03.172 --> 00:48:06.393
internet right um and we're seeing these

00:48:06.494 --> 00:48:07.414
id verification

00:48:08.762 --> 00:48:12.204
laws and directives expand far beyond

00:48:12.264 --> 00:48:14.764
their original intent of like protecting

00:48:15.164 --> 00:48:15.885
adult services.

00:48:15.925 --> 00:48:17.505
Now we're talking about social media

00:48:17.525 --> 00:48:17.726
sites.

00:48:17.766 --> 00:48:19.106
Now we're talking about VPNs.

00:48:19.445 --> 00:48:21.266
We've seen them affect in the UK,

00:48:21.827 --> 00:48:23.887
potentially Wikipedia, for example,

00:48:23.907 --> 00:48:26.168
which is just a knowledge sharing service.

00:48:26.188 --> 00:48:27.168
That's something that should be

00:48:28.132 --> 00:48:30.474
people should have a right to access that

00:48:30.494 --> 00:48:32.876
frankly and it's crazy that the government

00:48:32.896 --> 00:48:34.157
would step in and get in the middle

00:48:34.197 --> 00:48:36.679
of that and that is what we're enabling

00:48:36.719 --> 00:48:40.264
with these digital id concepts it is a

00:48:40.304 --> 00:48:43.467
whole system that the government has sole

00:48:43.646 --> 00:48:45.688
control over and it is really in my

00:48:45.708 --> 00:48:48.731
opinion antithetical to

00:48:50.432 --> 00:48:52.634
the internet and what computers and the

00:48:52.653 --> 00:48:54.894
internet were made for.

00:48:55.875 --> 00:48:58.416
We just cannot accept these restrictions

00:48:59.396 --> 00:49:03.038
on the free flow of information sharing

00:49:03.157 --> 00:49:03.757
and knowledge.

00:49:03.998 --> 00:49:07.579
And so even with these like private and

00:49:07.679 --> 00:49:09.780
zero knowledge digital ID solutions,

00:49:10.960 --> 00:49:12.762
it creates a real danger to society that

00:49:12.802 --> 00:49:14.822
I don't think we should tolerate using

00:49:14.842 --> 00:49:18.764
this technology at all for gating access

00:49:18.903 --> 00:49:20.164
to information especially.

00:49:23.126 --> 00:49:24.387
Yeah, totally agree.

00:49:24.706 --> 00:49:25.148
Great point.

00:49:25.827 --> 00:49:27.148
Information longs to be free.

00:49:27.329 --> 00:49:28.490
And there are many who argue that

00:49:28.590 --> 00:49:29.652
information should, I mean,

00:49:29.711 --> 00:49:31.472
I think that's why, um,

00:49:31.532 --> 00:49:32.954
I don't know if this is the ethos

00:49:32.974 --> 00:49:34.456
for privacy guides, but at the new oil,

00:49:34.496 --> 00:49:38.139
like I've never charged for articles for

00:49:38.239 --> 00:49:38.739
blog posts.

00:49:38.778 --> 00:49:39.920
Like I'll do early access,

00:49:39.940 --> 00:49:41.081
but then like a week later it goes

00:49:41.121 --> 00:49:41.882
public, you know, but I,

00:49:42.222 --> 00:49:43.682
there's no part of my website that is,

00:49:44.224 --> 00:49:44.364
Oh,

00:49:44.423 --> 00:49:45.905
you got to join a membership to access

00:49:45.945 --> 00:49:47.045
this premium stuff.

00:49:47.085 --> 00:49:48.106
It's like, no,

00:49:48.226 --> 00:49:49.728
cause it's information and it should be

00:49:49.768 --> 00:49:50.009
free.

00:49:51.532 --> 00:49:52.152
And yeah,

00:49:52.632 --> 00:49:54.313
to put up those barriers to information is

00:49:54.414 --> 00:49:56.315
really scary for the potential.

00:49:56.335 --> 00:49:56.896
Absolutely.

00:49:58.036 --> 00:50:00.518
Going back to something you said a little

00:50:00.579 --> 00:50:02.360
while ago now about the government just

00:50:02.400 --> 00:50:05.302
constantly putting band-aids on their

00:50:05.322 --> 00:50:06.623
current bad solutions,

00:50:07.184 --> 00:50:10.706
we have this story here from Independent.

00:50:11.626 --> 00:50:13.849
AI and facial recognition to be rolled out

00:50:14.028 --> 00:50:16.670
as Britain's broken policing system faces

00:50:16.730 --> 00:50:17.891
sweeping reforms.

00:50:18.291 --> 00:50:20.532
Officials say using AI will free up six

00:50:20.592 --> 00:50:21.992
million hours of police time,

00:50:22.213 --> 00:50:24.034
the equivalent of three thousand officers

00:50:24.474 --> 00:50:25.456
each year.

00:50:26.476 --> 00:50:28.416
This article says the Home Secretary has

00:50:28.456 --> 00:50:30.418
announced plans to ramp up the use of

00:50:30.599 --> 00:50:33.440
AI in live facial recognition as she

00:50:33.500 --> 00:50:35.981
unveils sweeping reforms to fix Britain's

00:50:36.081 --> 00:50:37.523
broken policing system.

00:50:39.123 --> 00:50:40.244
Shobana Mahmood,

00:50:40.786 --> 00:50:41.746
sorry if I pronounced that wrong,

00:50:41.987 --> 00:50:43.829
is investing a hundred forty million

00:50:43.869 --> 00:50:45.130
pounds to roll out technology which she

00:50:45.150 --> 00:50:46.590
hopes will free up six million police

00:50:46.630 --> 00:50:47.351
hours each year,

00:50:47.913 --> 00:50:49.474
the equivalent of three thousand officers,

00:50:49.554 --> 00:50:51.376
as part of the biggest overhaul of a

00:50:51.456 --> 00:50:51.775
quote,

00:50:52.056 --> 00:50:54.179
outdated policing model designed for

00:50:54.219 --> 00:50:55.260
another century.

00:50:57.141 --> 00:50:59.485
AI technology will be deployed to rapidly

00:50:59.585 --> 00:51:01.266
analyze CCTV, doorbell,

00:51:01.327 --> 00:51:02.467
and mobile phone footage,

00:51:02.708 --> 00:51:03.769
detect deepfakes,

00:51:04.090 --> 00:51:05.492
carry out digital forensics,

00:51:05.572 --> 00:51:08.115
and speed up administration such as form

00:51:08.155 --> 00:51:10.778
filling, redaction, and transcription.

00:51:13.393 --> 00:51:15.813
These measures are part of a bigger

00:51:15.934 --> 00:51:19.376
overhaul to policing that it seems like

00:51:19.536 --> 00:51:21.516
England is seeing right now.

00:51:22.478 --> 00:51:24.219
But I think I saw somewhere in this

00:51:24.358 --> 00:51:26.320
article.

00:51:26.820 --> 00:51:27.760
Now I can't find it.

00:51:31.275 --> 00:51:32.117
Well,

00:51:32.177 --> 00:51:37.358
I think the overall point is that these

00:51:37.498 --> 00:51:41.219
AI tools are well known already to be

00:51:41.260 --> 00:51:42.880
quite unreliable, right?

00:51:44.141 --> 00:51:45.501
We're going to see a lot of

00:51:48.422 --> 00:51:50.724
Like when we've seen this ruled out in

00:51:51.065 --> 00:51:52.485
other law enforcement jurisdictions,

00:51:52.525 --> 00:51:54.427
and especially like even here in the US,

00:51:54.728 --> 00:51:55.929
for example, recently,

00:51:56.289 --> 00:51:58.612
we talked a lot about this last week.

00:51:59.172 --> 00:52:00.452
These AI tools being ruled out,

00:52:00.472 --> 00:52:01.313
they're not reliable.

00:52:02.635 --> 00:52:04.896
They're making mistakes and people are...

00:52:07.132 --> 00:52:09.576
taking the claims of these systems at face

00:52:09.596 --> 00:52:09.976
value.

00:52:10.036 --> 00:52:11.538
And I think it's a really dangerous

00:52:11.697 --> 00:52:13.059
situation that the UK is putting

00:52:13.079 --> 00:52:16.864
themselves in by enabling this technology.

00:52:17.885 --> 00:52:21.088
So definitely something to be wary about,

00:52:21.188 --> 00:52:21.568
I think.

00:52:24.492 --> 00:52:25.472
When you were reading this article,

00:52:25.492 --> 00:52:27.315
did you see any other points you wanted

00:52:27.355 --> 00:52:28.235
to point out here?

00:52:30.157 --> 00:52:32.097
I think just to back up what you're

00:52:32.117 --> 00:52:32.697
saying, yeah,

00:52:32.998 --> 00:52:34.518
I have a friend here in the US

00:52:34.557 --> 00:52:35.679
who works in law enforcement.

00:52:36.099 --> 00:52:36.818
He's not a cop,

00:52:36.838 --> 00:52:38.179
but he's like a civilian employee.

00:52:38.800 --> 00:52:40.500
And he sends me stories,

00:52:40.679 --> 00:52:41.539
I swear to God,

00:52:41.639 --> 00:52:43.541
a couple times a month where he's like,

00:52:43.760 --> 00:52:45.581
oh, so one of our cops used AI.

00:52:45.621 --> 00:52:47.362
And I'm pretty sure this is the official

00:52:47.402 --> 00:52:49.083
sanctioned system they're allowed to use.

00:52:49.123 --> 00:52:49.262
Like,

00:52:49.322 --> 00:52:50.702
I don't even think this is somebody being

00:52:51.163 --> 00:52:51.722
like, quote unquote,

00:52:51.762 --> 00:52:53.123
lazy and going outside the system.

00:52:53.143 --> 00:52:53.344
He's like,

00:52:53.704 --> 00:52:53.983
yeah,

00:52:54.003 --> 00:52:56.286
so this cop tried to use AI to

00:52:56.425 --> 00:52:58.688
like do his police report and it just

00:52:58.728 --> 00:53:00.648
got everything completely wrong.

00:53:00.728 --> 00:53:01.068
Like you said,

00:53:01.088 --> 00:53:02.349
it was a two in the morning and

00:53:02.369 --> 00:53:03.731
just all these little things that like,

00:53:03.751 --> 00:53:05.351
you know, don't sound that bad to us,

00:53:05.391 --> 00:53:05.853
but it's like, yeah,

00:53:05.873 --> 00:53:07.313
that means this case gets thrown out in

00:53:07.353 --> 00:53:08.514
court because the prosecutor will

00:53:08.655 --> 00:53:09.956
absolutely tear this apart.

00:53:10.675 --> 00:53:11.876
And just, yeah,

00:53:11.916 --> 00:53:12.958
they're completely unreliable.

00:53:12.978 --> 00:53:14.278
And he sends me these stories all the

00:53:14.318 --> 00:53:14.659
time.

00:53:15.179 --> 00:53:16.579
And I'm assuming these are just the really

00:53:16.619 --> 00:53:18.061
bad ones he sends me that are like,

00:53:18.221 --> 00:53:19.461
wow, they got this really wrong.

00:53:19.501 --> 00:53:20.362
But yeah, AI is,

00:53:21.902 --> 00:53:24.423
so so bad yeah i found this article

00:53:24.503 --> 00:53:25.885
i was looking for it was just one

00:53:25.905 --> 00:53:29.586
sentence but um they're creating this

00:53:29.646 --> 00:53:31.527
national center dedicated to using the new

00:53:31.568 --> 00:53:34.409
technology called police ai despite just

00:53:34.489 --> 00:53:37.831
recently in ai hallucination influencing

00:53:38.070 --> 00:53:40.472
um a decision by one of their police

00:53:40.512 --> 00:53:43.713
departments to ban um fans of uh israeli

00:53:44.233 --> 00:53:44.414
uh

00:53:45.454 --> 00:53:47.155
football team from a match in Birmingham

00:53:47.195 --> 00:53:47.614
last year.

00:53:47.655 --> 00:53:51.277
So they're already experienced with the

00:53:51.317 --> 00:53:52.818
problems that this can cause and the

00:53:52.858 --> 00:53:58.141
problems that you see when you really just

00:53:58.161 --> 00:53:59.260
take these at face value.

00:53:59.581 --> 00:54:02.702
People aren't giving this AI oversight and

00:54:03.804 --> 00:54:04.684
it causes real problems.

00:54:04.704 --> 00:54:07.164
And I cannot imagine that they've really

00:54:07.224 --> 00:54:08.085
learned from these mistakes.

00:54:08.166 --> 00:54:09.746
I think that this sort of thing

00:54:11.797 --> 00:54:12.538
as we've seen, it's,

00:54:12.679 --> 00:54:14.659
it's only going to become more frequent

00:54:14.699 --> 00:54:15.780
and more of a problem.

00:54:15.940 --> 00:54:19.702
I think that that is the biggest problem

00:54:19.742 --> 00:54:20.483
with this, that I would,

00:54:20.563 --> 00:54:23.965
that I would point out for sure.

00:54:24.025 --> 00:54:24.525
It's crazy.

00:54:24.585 --> 00:54:25.865
And it's such high stakes too.

00:54:25.925 --> 00:54:27.126
It's one thing when like, you know,

00:54:27.327 --> 00:54:29.068
I'm cause I've,

00:54:29.248 --> 00:54:30.108
I've admitted to this before.

00:54:30.148 --> 00:54:31.289
I'll use like Braves Leo.

00:54:31.429 --> 00:54:32.750
If I'll go to the search engine first

00:54:32.809 --> 00:54:33.550
and I'll be like, you know,

00:54:33.590 --> 00:54:35.132
I'll type in the keywords or whatever I

00:54:35.172 --> 00:54:36.873
think should pop up the thing I'm looking

00:54:36.893 --> 00:54:38.954
for, but then I'll get like, Oh God,

00:54:38.994 --> 00:54:40.474
actually, what was it?

00:54:40.715 --> 00:54:40.855
Um,

00:54:42.277 --> 00:54:43.197
I think it was with WhatsApp.

00:54:43.237 --> 00:54:43.458
Yeah,

00:54:43.478 --> 00:54:44.878
it was this whole WhatsApp thing that our

00:54:44.918 --> 00:54:45.778
headline story, actually,

00:54:45.918 --> 00:54:47.998
as I'm working on this script for private

00:54:48.039 --> 00:54:48.378
messaging,

00:54:48.980 --> 00:54:50.739
I was looking for a story about how

00:54:50.960 --> 00:54:53.161
WhatsApp tried to change the terms of

00:54:53.201 --> 00:54:55.340
service so that they could share data with

00:54:55.440 --> 00:54:57.121
other meta properties like Instagram for

00:54:57.161 --> 00:54:58.001
targeted advertising.

00:54:58.362 --> 00:54:59.382
And everybody got really mad.

00:54:59.702 --> 00:55:00.722
And so I went to Brave and I

00:55:00.762 --> 00:55:01.663
typed in like, you know,

00:55:01.702 --> 00:55:03.402
WhatsApp data sharing, whatever, whatever.

00:55:03.762 --> 00:55:05.543
And all I got was this week's headline

00:55:05.563 --> 00:55:05.824
story.

00:55:05.884 --> 00:55:07.463
And I'm just like, oh my God, okay,

00:55:07.483 --> 00:55:07.963
forget this.

00:55:08.043 --> 00:55:09.284
And so I went to Leo and I

00:55:09.304 --> 00:55:10.644
was like, hey, I'm looking for this story,

00:55:10.684 --> 00:55:11.204
blah, blah, blah.

00:55:11.664 --> 00:55:12.585
And it was like, oh,

00:55:12.644 --> 00:55:14.186
you're thinking of this from twenty twenty

00:55:14.246 --> 00:55:14.786
one or whatever.

00:55:15.306 --> 00:55:16.746
And so, yeah,

00:55:16.827 --> 00:55:18.567
but I've had these times where, like,

00:55:18.646 --> 00:55:20.507
I ask Leo a question and it works.

00:55:21.047 --> 00:55:22.268
And then ten minutes later,

00:55:22.389 --> 00:55:23.188
I have the same problem.

00:55:23.208 --> 00:55:24.889
So I ask it another question.

00:55:25.570 --> 00:55:26.110
But for some reason,

00:55:26.130 --> 00:55:28.210
it loops back into the original question

00:55:28.271 --> 00:55:30.070
and just literally word for word answers

00:55:30.110 --> 00:55:30.791
the first question.

00:55:30.851 --> 00:55:31.851
And I'm like, no, that's.

00:55:32.331 --> 00:55:32.632
all right,

00:55:32.652 --> 00:55:33.753
let me close this window and start a

00:55:33.793 --> 00:55:34.032
new one.

00:55:34.552 --> 00:55:36.273
And just the point being that like,

00:55:36.634 --> 00:55:38.215
it's amazing that they see that kind of

00:55:38.255 --> 00:55:39.615
behavior and they're like, yeah,

00:55:39.635 --> 00:55:41.036
this will be great for determining whether

00:55:41.097 --> 00:55:43.338
people go to jail, have a criminal record,

00:55:43.778 --> 00:55:45.219
possibly end up on death row.

00:55:45.239 --> 00:55:46.039
I don't think they have death row in

00:55:46.059 --> 00:55:47.161
the UK, but you know,

00:55:47.201 --> 00:55:48.521
just like we can completely ruin

00:55:48.561 --> 00:55:49.242
somebody's life.

00:55:49.661 --> 00:55:50.882
And we know that this thing is not

00:55:50.943 --> 00:55:52.384
perfect, but we're willing to do that.

00:55:52.463 --> 00:55:53.603
That's wow.

00:55:53.684 --> 00:55:54.224
That's insane.

00:55:54.405 --> 00:55:55.905
Yeah.

00:55:56.626 --> 00:55:56.905
No, the,

00:55:57.005 --> 00:55:58.586
the other thing in answer to your question

00:55:58.606 --> 00:55:59.688
that jumped out at me was the,

00:55:59.907 --> 00:56:01.009
the facial recognition bands.

00:56:01.048 --> 00:56:01.429
These are,

00:56:02.713 --> 00:56:03.114
Yikes.

00:56:03.195 --> 00:56:05.719
These have been covered extensively by

00:56:05.760 --> 00:56:06.320
groups like...

00:56:06.340 --> 00:56:08.485
I think they're called Big Brother Watch

00:56:08.945 --> 00:56:09.567
in the UK.

00:56:09.726 --> 00:56:12.431
And the police will just randomly take...

00:56:12.472 --> 00:56:13.554
They have these mobile...

00:56:14.461 --> 00:56:15.141
I don't even know what you want to

00:56:15.161 --> 00:56:15.402
call them.

00:56:15.663 --> 00:56:17.182
They're mobile facial recognition bands.

00:56:17.503 --> 00:56:19.483
They'll go out to a public street out

00:56:19.523 --> 00:56:21.224
of the blue and they'll set them up

00:56:21.664 --> 00:56:23.186
and just scan everybody that walks by.

00:56:23.565 --> 00:56:25.327
And the reason they're so problematic is

00:56:25.367 --> 00:56:27.748
because they'll put signs up at the end

00:56:27.768 --> 00:56:29.188
of the street that say, Hey,

00:56:29.208 --> 00:56:30.949
we're using facial recognition because

00:56:31.009 --> 00:56:31.929
legally they have to,

00:56:31.969 --> 00:56:33.210
they have to put those signs up so

00:56:33.230 --> 00:56:34.891
that you can quote unquote consent.

00:56:35.271 --> 00:56:36.711
And the reason I put quote unquote is

00:56:36.731 --> 00:56:38.273
because there've been so many stories of

00:56:38.313 --> 00:56:39.853
people will like turn down the street and

00:56:39.913 --> 00:56:41.014
see that sign and

00:56:41.353 --> 00:56:42.494
And decide like, oh,

00:56:42.775 --> 00:56:43.715
I don't want to go down the street.

00:56:43.994 --> 00:56:45.195
So they'll turn and walk away.

00:56:45.516 --> 00:56:47.757
And the police will go follow that person

00:56:48.117 --> 00:56:49.597
and hunt them down and be like,

00:56:49.838 --> 00:56:50.577
why'd you walk away?

00:56:50.878 --> 00:56:51.699
What do you have to hide?

00:56:51.739 --> 00:56:52.139
What's your name?

00:56:52.179 --> 00:56:52.898
Show me your ID.

00:56:52.998 --> 00:56:54.400
And sometimes they'll even facial

00:56:54.420 --> 00:56:55.079
recognition them anyways.

00:56:55.420 --> 00:56:56.039
And it's like, dude,

00:56:56.541 --> 00:56:57.900
it's not consent if you're going to chase

00:56:57.920 --> 00:56:58.981
me down the street and make me do

00:56:59.021 --> 00:56:59.481
it anyways.

00:57:00.121 --> 00:57:00.943
And so, yeah,

00:57:01.063 --> 00:57:02.882
I think they're going from like ten of

00:57:02.902 --> 00:57:04.164
those to like fifty of them.

00:57:04.423 --> 00:57:05.804
Five zero.

00:57:06.324 --> 00:57:07.264
It's completely insane.

00:57:07.304 --> 00:57:08.405
And those things scare the crap out of

00:57:08.445 --> 00:57:08.505
me.

00:57:09.641 --> 00:57:10.485
Yeah, my...

00:57:12.253 --> 00:57:13.373
My wife made a friend in the UK

00:57:13.393 --> 00:57:14.373
last year and she was like,

00:57:14.393 --> 00:57:15.213
we should go sometime.

00:57:15.233 --> 00:57:15.974
And I was like, never.

00:57:16.653 --> 00:57:18.653
No, I'm not going to the UK.

00:57:18.733 --> 00:57:20.813
It is a bit of a scary place.

00:57:21.175 --> 00:57:22.675
I just saw we got a comment from

00:57:22.835 --> 00:57:25.074
a Wither lead here who said that these

00:57:25.094 --> 00:57:26.394
cases are hilarious that the involved

00:57:26.414 --> 00:57:29.036
people using them are too lazy to look

00:57:29.076 --> 00:57:30.856
back at what really AI is generated for

00:57:30.996 --> 00:57:31.235
them.

00:57:31.376 --> 00:57:32.456
And I think that's very true.

00:57:32.536 --> 00:57:34.416
And it's ridiculous,

00:57:34.476 --> 00:57:36.536
but I think it really highlights a huge

00:57:36.617 --> 00:57:38.998
problem that we see with AI right now,

00:57:40.038 --> 00:57:41.438
which is that I don't think people...

00:57:43.672 --> 00:57:43.831
When,

00:57:43.911 --> 00:57:45.432
when we see AI used in these

00:57:45.632 --> 00:57:46.373
circumstances,

00:57:46.452 --> 00:57:47.994
it always needs to be done under like

00:57:48.014 --> 00:57:49.833
the oversight of a real person with

00:57:49.873 --> 00:57:51.454
experience and knowledge in this space,

00:57:51.494 --> 00:57:54.976
because AI will lie to you straight to

00:57:54.996 --> 00:57:56.976
your face without batting an eye because

00:57:57.097 --> 00:57:58.617
it can't, it doesn't know any better.

00:57:59.137 --> 00:58:00.318
And you know,

00:58:00.719 --> 00:58:01.938
if you're going to use AI at all,

00:58:01.978 --> 00:58:03.900
the only way to do it is to,

00:58:04.760 --> 00:58:05.621
um,

00:58:05.661 --> 00:58:07.121
be aware of that and be able to

00:58:07.161 --> 00:58:08.702
catch AI and maybe

00:58:10.418 --> 00:58:12.478
maybe i don't know in terms of police

00:58:12.518 --> 00:58:14.760
but maybe some police officers can can do

00:58:14.780 --> 00:58:16.980
that right now um like more experienced

00:58:17.079 --> 00:58:18.360
ones they might be able to look at

00:58:18.380 --> 00:58:20.201
this and say like oh that's not quite

00:58:20.800 --> 00:58:22.702
right but what we're missing right now i

00:58:22.722 --> 00:58:26.242
think is all these younger people the new

00:58:26.302 --> 00:58:28.862
generations entering the workforce or in

00:58:28.902 --> 00:58:31.262
college right now who are really reliant

00:58:31.324 --> 00:58:33.103
on ai they're going to be using ai

00:58:33.143 --> 00:58:36.824
more in their jobs and they aren't being

00:58:36.864 --> 00:58:37.965
trained on how to

00:58:39.079 --> 00:58:40.802
properly oversee AI.

00:58:40.882 --> 00:58:42.264
I think we're losing a lot of that

00:58:42.304 --> 00:58:43.867
knowledge and we're putting a lot of trust

00:58:43.907 --> 00:58:45.990
in AI and that is simply not a

00:58:46.050 --> 00:58:46.512
tenable

00:58:48.101 --> 00:58:51.021
solution to this to this problem um we're

00:58:51.121 --> 00:58:53.822
not properly training anybody who's using

00:58:53.862 --> 00:58:56.342
these tools right now in my opinion to

00:58:57.443 --> 00:58:59.543
be aware of this in a way that

00:58:59.563 --> 00:59:02.224
makes sense we're kind of offloading a lot

00:59:02.264 --> 00:59:04.786
of jobs to ai right now when that

00:59:05.646 --> 00:59:07.405
is not something that ai can do it's

00:59:07.465 --> 00:59:09.507
never really going to be something that ai

00:59:09.527 --> 00:59:11.867
can do there are certainly like ai

00:59:11.927 --> 00:59:12.668
optimists who can

00:59:14.168 --> 00:59:16.452
argue, and they may be right,

00:59:16.492 --> 00:59:18.755
that AI will be a big part of

00:59:19.436 --> 00:59:20.719
people's jobs in the future,

00:59:20.759 --> 00:59:23.001
but it'll always be under this human

00:59:23.161 --> 00:59:23.884
supervision.

00:59:24.003 --> 00:59:26.106
And it'll always be like a force

00:59:26.887 --> 00:59:27.949
multiplier, basically,

00:59:28.010 --> 00:59:28.911
but you have to

00:59:30.717 --> 00:59:34.179
You have to have the ability to recognize

00:59:34.199 --> 00:59:35.840
the problems with AI and control it.

00:59:35.981 --> 00:59:37.702
And people simply don't right now.

00:59:37.742 --> 00:59:38.722
I think that's a huge problem.

00:59:39.103 --> 00:59:40.342
I think it's only going to become more

00:59:40.362 --> 00:59:43.125
and more of a problem as more people

00:59:43.164 --> 00:59:45.947
with real world experience retire and they

00:59:45.967 --> 00:59:48.048
don't pass that knowledge down to new

00:59:48.088 --> 00:59:50.349
trainees who are just doing everything

00:59:50.510 --> 00:59:51.090
through AI.

00:59:51.351 --> 00:59:54.052
So that worries me quite a bit about

00:59:54.353 --> 00:59:56.134
AI, not just in policing,

00:59:56.333 --> 00:59:58.576
but in pretty much any field where they're

00:59:58.596 --> 00:59:59.675
trying to apply it right now.

01:00:01.137 --> 01:00:03.460
And I think we really need to be

01:00:03.500 --> 01:00:04.742
aware of that and we need to do

01:00:05.081 --> 01:00:06.923
more about that to make it better.

01:00:09.626 --> 01:00:09.786
Yeah,

01:00:09.806 --> 01:00:10.989
and that kind of goes back to what

01:00:11.028 --> 01:00:13.431
I said earlier about we have a low

01:00:13.472 --> 01:00:14.972
level of tech literacy.

01:00:15.012 --> 01:00:17.335
We have people who...

01:00:18.496 --> 01:00:18.675
You know,

01:00:18.755 --> 01:00:21.476
I just mentioned the issues that I have

01:00:21.496 --> 01:00:22.217
with Braves Leo,

01:00:22.237 --> 01:00:23.318
which somebody else said in the comments,

01:00:23.338 --> 01:00:24.318
like Leo's pretty good.

01:00:24.338 --> 01:00:24.998
And I agree.

01:00:25.117 --> 01:00:26.838
I'm very happy with the results.

01:00:26.878 --> 01:00:27.898
It cites its sources.

01:00:27.918 --> 01:00:28.940
So I always double check it.

01:00:28.960 --> 01:00:29.500
And I'm like, okay,

01:00:29.519 --> 01:00:30.760
let me make sure this actually says what

01:00:30.780 --> 01:00:31.641
you're telling me it says.

01:00:32.161 --> 01:00:33.460
But even then it's still, you know,

01:00:33.561 --> 01:00:34.422
it gets things wrong.

01:00:34.561 --> 01:00:35.621
It repeats itself.

01:00:35.661 --> 01:00:36.262
It does things.

01:00:36.702 --> 01:00:38.083
And I don't understand how like,

01:00:38.836 --> 01:00:40.077
like the whole AI girlfriend thing,

01:00:40.097 --> 01:00:40.257
you know,

01:00:40.297 --> 01:00:41.797
like some people are really thinking like,

01:00:41.878 --> 01:00:42.157
oh, this,

01:00:42.757 --> 01:00:43.998
and I'm sure they realize it's software,

01:00:44.018 --> 01:00:44.358
but they're like,

01:00:44.539 --> 01:00:45.978
this software is sentience and really

01:00:46.018 --> 01:00:46.719
cares about me.

01:00:46.739 --> 01:00:47.179
And it's like,

01:00:47.780 --> 01:00:49.201
I have to imagine it has the same

01:00:49.221 --> 01:00:50.860
glitches that Leo does.

01:00:50.880 --> 01:00:52.121
And I don't understand how you can look

01:00:52.161 --> 01:00:54.242
at that and still think that this is

01:00:54.302 --> 01:00:54.882
the way to go.

01:00:54.942 --> 01:00:57.182
And just that level of tech literacy to

01:00:57.202 --> 01:00:59.204
not understand what's going on under the

01:00:59.244 --> 01:01:01.144
hood and that it's just a prompt and

01:01:01.184 --> 01:01:03.885
that it's just, you know, autocorrect.

01:01:04.085 --> 01:01:04.606
And it's just,

01:01:06.045 --> 01:01:07.226
It scares me that, yeah, like you said,

01:01:07.387 --> 01:01:12.369
this is becoming such a – it's something

01:01:12.389 --> 01:01:13.530
that people are relying on for such

01:01:13.550 --> 01:01:14.369
important decisions.

01:01:14.570 --> 01:01:15.911
And on top of it, like you said,

01:01:16.351 --> 01:01:18.692
losing the ability to understand what it

01:01:18.751 --> 01:01:20.472
is, what it does, the limitations,

01:01:21.813 --> 01:01:23.514
things like that.

01:01:23.735 --> 01:01:24.934
It's a tech literacy problem,

01:01:24.954 --> 01:01:25.496
but it's also,

01:01:25.556 --> 01:01:26.816
I think –

01:01:26.760 --> 01:01:29.824
like an intentional deception issue.

01:01:30.103 --> 01:01:31.465
And this almost ties back to what we

01:01:31.485 --> 01:01:33.005
were talking about social media earlier,

01:01:33.086 --> 01:01:36.009
where the way that AI companies,

01:01:36.670 --> 01:01:38.530
in particular OpenAI, I think,

01:01:38.650 --> 01:01:40.432
are treating their customers and are

01:01:40.452 --> 01:01:42.134
designing these models is

01:01:43.215 --> 01:01:45.717
becoming a legitimate public health hazard

01:01:45.757 --> 01:01:46.518
more than anything.

01:01:46.798 --> 01:01:48.340
And that's the sort of thing where, again,

01:01:49.061 --> 01:01:51.583
we probably want to see more safeguards

01:01:51.623 --> 01:01:53.485
and more regulation and more thought put

01:01:53.565 --> 01:01:55.686
into how people interact with these

01:01:55.706 --> 01:01:55.907
things.

01:01:55.967 --> 01:01:57.869
Because I think people,

01:01:58.528 --> 01:01:59.349
there are so many people out there,

01:01:59.369 --> 01:01:59.570
I think,

01:01:59.590 --> 01:02:03.233
who naturally just want to humanize and

01:02:03.974 --> 01:02:07.974
anthropomorphize any technology they want.

01:02:08.014 --> 01:02:10.076
They're going to be sucked into these

01:02:10.115 --> 01:02:11.336
relationships like you were talking about,

01:02:11.356 --> 01:02:11.856
for example,

01:02:11.956 --> 01:02:13.137
or the advice that you're giving because

01:02:13.177 --> 01:02:14.838
it can sound so human.

01:02:14.918 --> 01:02:18.059
And I think that playing on that fact

01:02:18.199 --> 01:02:21.519
to sell more subscriptions or to get more

01:02:21.679 --> 01:02:23.641
users I think is really, really dangerous.

01:02:23.701 --> 01:02:25.961
I think it is pretty much all of

01:02:26.001 --> 01:02:27.402
the problems that we've seen with

01:02:27.501 --> 01:02:28.762
algorithms and social media,

01:02:28.922 --> 01:02:29.483
but like

01:02:30.222 --> 01:02:31.623
ramped up to eleven,

01:02:31.884 --> 01:02:37.989
it's bad stuff that I think really needs

01:02:38.009 --> 01:02:39.570
to be thought of more carefully.

01:02:39.670 --> 01:02:42.152
We're in a classic Silicon Valley move

01:02:42.172 --> 01:02:43.572
fast and break things moment,

01:02:43.652 --> 01:02:45.233
but the things that we're breaking right

01:02:45.253 --> 01:02:46.454
now are extremely serious,

01:02:46.635 --> 01:02:49.297
and that's not maybe the mentality we can

01:02:49.317 --> 01:02:50.838
take when we're rolling out this sort of

01:02:50.878 --> 01:02:54.760
technology nationwide or globally or

01:02:54.800 --> 01:02:55.141
whatever.

01:02:55.501 --> 01:02:57.242
It's crazy stuff.

01:02:59.835 --> 01:03:03.115
Yeah, for sure.

01:03:03.135 --> 01:03:04.476
All right.

01:03:05.577 --> 01:03:07.737
I think in a little bit here,

01:03:07.958 --> 01:03:08.918
we're going to talk about some of the

01:03:08.938 --> 01:03:11.039
popular discussions on the forum and start

01:03:11.079 --> 01:03:11.940
answering questions.

01:03:12.559 --> 01:03:13.159
But first,

01:03:13.400 --> 01:03:15.380
we're going to talk about TikTok on the

01:03:15.420 --> 01:03:17.521
topic of public health crises and AI.

01:03:20.487 --> 01:03:21.907
Yeah, so TikTok,

01:03:22.088 --> 01:03:23.728
in case you guys haven't been paying

01:03:23.748 --> 01:03:24.628
attention, which for the record,

01:03:24.929 --> 01:03:25.550
I wouldn't blame you.

01:03:25.670 --> 01:03:27.710
I don't really pay much attention to it

01:03:28.030 --> 01:03:29.112
myself, if we're being honest.

01:03:30.132 --> 01:03:31.793
But TikTok was sold.

01:03:33.521 --> 01:03:33.963
Believe it or not,

01:03:33.983 --> 01:03:35.003
the deal finally went through.

01:03:35.123 --> 01:03:36.744
I know Trump's been trying to get that

01:03:37.186 --> 01:03:38.646
pushed through for a couple of years now.

01:03:39.307 --> 01:03:40.849
And finally,

01:03:41.028 --> 01:03:43.472
I think the twenty second last week,

01:03:43.672 --> 01:03:45.454
it like officially the deal closed.

01:03:46.635 --> 01:03:48.356
It's all like the handoff has started.

01:03:49.157 --> 01:03:51.480
And I know the handoff has started because

01:03:51.599 --> 01:03:52.701
I overheard my wife and one of her

01:03:52.721 --> 01:03:56.083
friends saying that that TikTok was

01:03:56.123 --> 01:03:57.746
basically broken for like a week.

01:03:58.945 --> 01:03:59.126
Well,

01:03:59.186 --> 01:04:01.027
I think we've had a problem ourselves with

01:04:01.527 --> 01:04:02.586
our own shorts, right?

01:04:02.606 --> 01:04:03.387
We can't post.

01:04:03.407 --> 01:04:04.268
We haven't been able to post.

01:04:04.307 --> 01:04:04.788
Oh, that's right.

01:04:04.807 --> 01:04:05.507
I forgot about that.

01:04:05.547 --> 01:04:05.907
Yeah.

01:04:06.847 --> 01:04:08.909
In case you guys are on TikTok,

01:04:08.969 --> 01:04:11.269
our shorts stopped posting there because

01:04:11.469 --> 01:04:13.670
of the technical issues they were having,

01:04:13.809 --> 01:04:15.710
and it couldn't post for some reason.

01:04:16.471 --> 01:04:18.052
And I actually went to go try and

01:04:18.072 --> 01:04:19.731
look for the live and see if there

01:04:19.751 --> 01:04:20.472
were any comments,

01:04:20.512 --> 01:04:21.512
and I can't even see the live,

01:04:21.532 --> 01:04:22.393
but that could be my phone.

01:04:23.413 --> 01:04:24.233
So, yeah.

01:04:24.253 --> 01:04:24.594
Who knows?

01:04:25.193 --> 01:04:25.414
But...

01:04:26.474 --> 01:04:29.094
Yeah, so anyways, TikTok sold.

01:04:29.355 --> 01:04:31.597
And of course, when you open the app,

01:04:32.197 --> 01:04:33.556
you have to accept the terms of service,

01:04:33.597 --> 01:04:34.717
which I'm assuming you have to do even

01:04:34.737 --> 01:04:35.719
if you want to delete it now,

01:04:36.298 --> 01:04:37.719
which is a dark pattern that's not cool.

01:04:37.780 --> 01:04:39.300
But anyways,

01:04:39.400 --> 01:04:41.101
where we're going with this is there were

01:04:41.221 --> 01:04:42.722
some privacy changes to TikTok.

01:04:42.822 --> 01:04:44.603
Believe it or not, it got worse.

01:04:45.769 --> 01:04:46.911
If you are one of the people who

01:04:46.931 --> 01:04:48.132
didn't think it could, it did.

01:04:48.733 --> 01:04:50.994
So this article from Wired here talks

01:04:51.034 --> 01:04:52.835
about three of the biggest changes.

01:04:53.456 --> 01:04:54.896
One of them is that TikTok is now

01:04:54.936 --> 01:04:56.978
capable of precise location tracking.

01:04:57.458 --> 01:04:58.039
Before this,

01:04:58.119 --> 01:04:59.721
it did not collect precise data.

01:05:00.561 --> 01:05:01.561
Yeah, precise location.

01:05:02.021 --> 01:05:04.284
So now if you are a TikTok user

01:05:04.304 --> 01:05:05.724
for whatever reason, like, you know,

01:05:05.764 --> 01:05:06.626
we post stuff there,

01:05:07.206 --> 01:05:09.367
make sure you double check and disable

01:05:09.407 --> 01:05:09.527
that.

01:05:10.621 --> 01:05:11.443
the precise location.

01:05:11.483 --> 01:05:12.682
I mean, disabled location in general,

01:05:12.702 --> 01:05:13.903
but especially precise location.

01:05:14.704 --> 01:05:17.005
It now tracks your AI interactions,

01:05:17.085 --> 01:05:20.487
which TikTok is loaded with AI slop,

01:05:21.327 --> 01:05:23.829
but I guess there's also like AI tools

01:05:23.849 --> 01:05:26.250
and I don't understand what those are

01:05:26.269 --> 01:05:27.170
because I don't use them.

01:05:27.530 --> 01:05:28.471
Again, like I show up,

01:05:28.590 --> 01:05:30.052
I post a video, I check for comments,

01:05:30.192 --> 01:05:31.432
I leave, I don't hang out there.

01:05:32.012 --> 01:05:34.735
So I guess there are AI tools now

01:05:34.894 --> 01:05:36.835
that formerly did not fall under the

01:05:36.856 --> 01:05:37.556
privacy policy,

01:05:37.596 --> 01:05:39.197
but now TikTok has started tracking

01:05:39.737 --> 01:05:41.577
analytics and metadata from the usage of

01:05:41.617 --> 01:05:42.117
those tools.

01:05:43.117 --> 01:05:45.438
And if you're a video viewer,

01:05:45.478 --> 01:05:46.059
you can see here,

01:05:46.099 --> 01:05:47.878
it says the old privacy policy are not

01:05:47.918 --> 01:05:48.699
explicitly mentioned,

01:05:48.780 --> 01:05:49.880
the new privacy policy.

01:05:50.300 --> 01:05:51.519
So that is one cool thing about this

01:05:51.559 --> 01:05:51.800
article.

01:05:51.840 --> 01:05:53.420
It shows you what the old privacy policy

01:05:53.440 --> 01:05:54.400
says and what the new one says.

01:05:55.081 --> 01:05:59.242
And then next up, not quite last,

01:05:59.262 --> 01:06:00.003
because there's one more,

01:06:00.143 --> 01:06:01.083
a couple more things we're going to talk

01:06:01.103 --> 01:06:01.222
about.

01:06:01.242 --> 01:06:01.722
But next up,

01:06:02.023 --> 01:06:03.864
TikTok has expanded its ad network.

01:06:04.264 --> 01:06:04.423
So

01:06:05.639 --> 01:06:08.641
So previously, I want to say,

01:06:09.643 --> 01:06:10.523
let me double check here.

01:06:10.603 --> 01:06:12.045
So rather than using, well,

01:06:12.065 --> 01:06:12.844
you use the app TikTok.

01:06:13.226 --> 01:06:13.465
Yeah.

01:06:13.746 --> 01:06:16.007
So now basically they're going to be able

01:06:16.027 --> 01:06:17.688
to advertise to you in other places and

01:06:17.768 --> 01:06:20.550
use the data from TikTok to advertise to

01:06:20.570 --> 01:06:21.311
you in other places.

01:06:21.391 --> 01:06:23.833
And I would assume collect that data from

01:06:23.873 --> 01:06:25.594
other places to advertise to you on TikTok

01:06:25.614 --> 01:06:27.036
because I know that TikTok does have its

01:06:27.155 --> 01:06:28.737
own analytics tool like the Metapixel,

01:06:28.777 --> 01:06:29.518
Google Analytics.

01:06:30.077 --> 01:06:32.239
So yeah, that advertising has expanded.

01:06:33.402 --> 01:06:35.985
Another privacy concern we should mention

01:06:36.065 --> 01:06:37.447
that I have seen making the rounds.

01:06:37.467 --> 01:06:41.070
Let me go ahead and change my tab

01:06:41.090 --> 01:06:41.851
I'm sharing here.

01:06:42.012 --> 01:06:44.856
This one comes from TechCrunch and it

01:06:44.876 --> 01:06:45.036
says,

01:06:45.076 --> 01:06:46.597
TikTok users freak out over apps

01:06:46.617 --> 01:06:47.739
immigration status collection.

01:06:48.039 --> 01:06:48.760
Here's what it means.

01:06:50.161 --> 01:06:51.164
I don't like this article.

01:06:51.684 --> 01:06:52.525
I'm gonna say that upfront.

01:06:53.126 --> 01:06:55.007
Because basically there's – I guess

01:06:55.068 --> 01:06:56.268
there's – again,

01:06:56.329 --> 01:06:57.451
don't hang out there so I wouldn't know.

01:06:57.831 --> 01:06:58.751
But I guess there's a lot of videos

01:06:58.771 --> 01:07:02.235
going around TikTok about how TikTok now

01:07:02.436 --> 01:07:03.956
is collecting your immigration status,

01:07:04.177 --> 01:07:07.300
which is probably already being reported

01:07:07.320 --> 01:07:07.621
to ICE.

01:07:07.661 --> 01:07:08.802
I feel like I've reported on a story

01:07:08.822 --> 01:07:10.264
about that before, but I could be wrong.

01:07:10.744 --> 01:07:14.407
But anyways, according to this article,

01:07:14.628 --> 01:07:15.690
TikTok has always done that.

01:07:16.670 --> 01:07:18.110
The difference is that now with the

01:07:18.170 --> 01:07:19.791
updated privacy policy,

01:07:20.110 --> 01:07:23.731
because of the way that laws in California

01:07:23.751 --> 01:07:24.152
are worded,

01:07:24.211 --> 01:07:25.632
specifically with the CCPA and

01:07:25.672 --> 01:07:27.333
California's Privacy Act,

01:07:27.413 --> 01:07:29.534
now they have to specifically disclose it.

01:07:29.634 --> 01:07:31.914
And it's – let me see if I

01:07:31.934 --> 01:07:32.755
can find it here.

01:07:33.954 --> 01:07:37.735
It's a very subtle, like, basically –

01:07:38.516 --> 01:07:39.056
Yeah,

01:07:39.077 --> 01:07:40.778
the policy specificity around types of

01:07:40.818 --> 01:07:42.201
sensitive information has to do with state

01:07:42.221 --> 01:07:45.023
privacy laws such as California's CPRA.

01:07:46.045 --> 01:07:47.807
The latter, for instance, the CCPA,

01:07:48.128 --> 01:07:49.829
requires businesses to inform consumers

01:07:49.849 --> 01:07:51.331
when they collect sensitive information,

01:07:51.351 --> 01:07:53.175
which the law defines as including the

01:07:53.215 --> 01:07:54.135
following things.

01:07:54.195 --> 01:07:54.556
And there's a...

01:07:55.217 --> 01:07:56.838
Huge list of things here,

01:07:57.099 --> 01:07:59.402
precise location, genetic data,

01:08:00.061 --> 01:08:01.143
things that I think we would all agree

01:08:01.204 --> 01:08:02.164
are sensitive information.

01:08:02.864 --> 01:08:04.166
And it says, of note,

01:08:04.547 --> 01:08:06.148
citizenship and immigration status were

01:08:06.188 --> 01:08:08.351
specifically added to the category in

01:08:08.391 --> 01:08:09.211
twenty twenty three.

01:08:10.452 --> 01:08:10.632
Um,

01:08:10.672 --> 01:08:13.534
so basically it was probably always

01:08:13.574 --> 01:08:14.235
collecting this data.

01:08:14.295 --> 01:08:15.476
It just didn't have to tell you that

01:08:15.516 --> 01:08:15.876
before.

01:08:16.435 --> 01:08:18.216
And the reason I don't like this article

01:08:18.317 --> 01:08:19.757
is just the author's tone.

01:08:19.877 --> 01:08:22.340
She takes this very like, guys, calm down.

01:08:22.380 --> 01:08:23.520
They were always doing this.

01:08:23.579 --> 01:08:24.320
It's not a big deal.

01:08:24.360 --> 01:08:25.801
Now they're just being more honest about

01:08:25.862 --> 01:08:25.942
it.

01:08:26.301 --> 01:08:27.783
And I really don't like that tone because

01:08:27.802 --> 01:08:29.663
it's like, no, it was bad then too.

01:08:29.764 --> 01:08:30.363
It's still bad.

01:08:30.884 --> 01:08:31.484
It was bad.

01:08:32.545 --> 01:08:34.046
This is not a calm down moment just

01:08:34.065 --> 01:08:35.067
because we know about it now.

01:08:35.087 --> 01:08:37.108
So yeah, that, uh,

01:08:39.889 --> 01:08:41.488
What's up?

01:08:41.509 --> 01:08:41.788
Sorry,

01:08:42.048 --> 01:08:43.510
my camera is apparently not working.

01:08:43.529 --> 01:08:44.210
Maybe I have to fix this.

01:08:44.229 --> 01:08:48.751
It's all good.

01:08:49.511 --> 01:08:50.011
Well,

01:08:50.030 --> 01:08:50.970
the only thing I was going to say

01:08:51.011 --> 01:08:52.030
is I read this article and I was

01:08:52.051 --> 01:08:53.171
thinking the exact same thing.

01:08:53.252 --> 01:08:54.271
Like this TechCrunch article,

01:08:54.292 --> 01:08:57.972
they really framed this as like, hey,

01:08:58.752 --> 01:09:00.332
you know, it's actually not a big deal.

01:09:00.773 --> 01:09:02.654
They have to put this in their privacy

01:09:02.694 --> 01:09:04.293
policy because they're collecting it and

01:09:04.333 --> 01:09:04.833
it's the law.

01:09:05.515 --> 01:09:07.317
But that's not an excuse for them to

01:09:07.377 --> 01:09:08.917
collect it in the first place, obviously.

01:09:09.537 --> 01:09:11.439
I see we saw a question in here,

01:09:11.458 --> 01:09:13.100
how did they determine immigration status?

01:09:13.199 --> 01:09:14.680
I think when it comes to this and

01:09:14.720 --> 01:09:16.601
also the other sensitive information that

01:09:16.622 --> 01:09:17.703
was mentioned in this article,

01:09:17.783 --> 01:09:20.884
like sexual life or sexual orientation,

01:09:21.305 --> 01:09:23.126
I think that that stuff is kind of

01:09:23.405 --> 01:09:25.587
being determined by algorithms,

01:09:25.646 --> 01:09:26.167
most likely.

01:09:26.506 --> 01:09:28.188
And it's probably a situation that we

01:09:28.247 --> 01:09:28.469
see...

01:09:30.668 --> 01:09:32.591
Similar to that stuff showing up in the

01:09:32.631 --> 01:09:35.435
privacy policy of cars and vehicles,

01:09:35.475 --> 01:09:37.377
for example, when we saw Mozilla's things.

01:09:37.899 --> 01:09:38.760
A bit of it, I think,

01:09:38.779 --> 01:09:41.484
is going to be overzealousness.

01:09:41.923 --> 01:09:43.485
I think a lot of lawyers think we

01:09:43.506 --> 01:09:44.807
should put everything in there just to...

01:09:45.578 --> 01:09:47.219
cover our butts just in case something

01:09:47.238 --> 01:09:47.578
happens.

01:09:47.618 --> 01:09:50.041
But also I think they are collecting this

01:09:50.081 --> 01:09:51.782
information and they're inferring it based

01:09:51.902 --> 01:09:54.644
on not only the content you post,

01:09:54.663 --> 01:09:56.305
but also the content that you consume.

01:09:56.324 --> 01:09:57.524
And I think that they can probably get

01:09:57.545 --> 01:09:59.827
a pretty good idea of all of this

01:09:59.867 --> 01:10:02.988
information just based on the content you

01:10:03.069 --> 01:10:05.329
consume alone.

01:10:05.650 --> 01:10:06.051
And so

01:10:08.521 --> 01:10:09.402
Yeah, ideally,

01:10:09.442 --> 01:10:10.783
they wouldn't be collecting any of that

01:10:11.082 --> 01:10:12.423
information at all.

01:10:12.524 --> 01:10:14.123
I definitely don't think that just because

01:10:14.163 --> 01:10:15.645
it's in state privacy laws,

01:10:15.664 --> 01:10:16.944
that's an excuse to put it in there.

01:10:17.085 --> 01:10:17.445
Ideally,

01:10:17.466 --> 01:10:19.666
the algorithm wouldn't be able to know

01:10:19.706 --> 01:10:20.606
that information.

01:10:20.846 --> 01:10:22.488
And once again,

01:10:22.887 --> 01:10:24.368
I think that's the theme of this episode.

01:10:25.109 --> 01:10:28.689
That's the sort of thing where the social

01:10:28.710 --> 01:10:32.291
media algorithms are overreaching and are

01:10:32.331 --> 01:10:36.092
very dangerous and need to be reined in

01:10:36.113 --> 01:10:36.372
a bit.

01:10:38.948 --> 01:10:39.748
Yeah, for sure.

01:10:40.670 --> 01:10:41.270
Yeah,

01:10:41.692 --> 01:10:43.252
it would be nice if they just said,

01:10:43.314 --> 01:10:45.076
here's how we determine that information.

01:10:45.136 --> 01:10:47.057
But it's probably so many different ways.

01:10:47.078 --> 01:10:47.618
Because like you said,

01:10:47.819 --> 01:10:49.701
some people disclose it.

01:10:49.740 --> 01:10:51.122
Some people upload a video where they're

01:10:51.143 --> 01:10:51.644
like, hey,

01:10:52.204 --> 01:10:54.407
I'm an immigrant here and I moved here

01:10:54.466 --> 01:10:54.506
in

01:10:56.750 --> 01:10:58.391
you know, but other people, yeah,

01:10:58.412 --> 01:10:59.391
it's probably a lot of signals.

01:10:59.431 --> 01:11:00.654
Like I would have to imagine if I

01:11:00.694 --> 01:11:02.395
moved out of the U S it would

01:11:02.414 --> 01:11:04.036
probably still be pretty easy to tell

01:11:04.096 --> 01:11:05.797
based on the way I spell things,

01:11:05.837 --> 01:11:06.399
the language.

01:11:06.439 --> 01:11:08.479
I mean, there have been studies into like,

01:11:08.961 --> 01:11:09.180
you know,

01:11:09.240 --> 01:11:10.322
one of the most common examples is like

01:11:10.381 --> 01:11:11.603
soda versus pop, right.

01:11:12.023 --> 01:11:13.845
Depending on which phrase you use or Coke

01:11:13.885 --> 01:11:15.025
or some specific things,

01:11:15.046 --> 01:11:16.768
like depending on which word you use,

01:11:17.108 --> 01:11:18.088
it's a pretty good indicator.

01:11:18.128 --> 01:11:18.349
Like, Oh,

01:11:18.368 --> 01:11:19.449
you're probably from up North or you're

01:11:19.470 --> 01:11:20.930
probably from down South or something.

01:11:21.011 --> 01:11:21.171
So

01:11:21.832 --> 01:11:23.792
That's just when you add up enough of

01:11:23.813 --> 01:11:24.693
those little signals,

01:11:24.813 --> 01:11:26.713
you can start to reveal things that may

01:11:26.734 --> 01:11:27.954
not be a hundred percent accurate,

01:11:27.975 --> 01:11:29.716
but they're probably right more often than

01:11:29.735 --> 01:11:30.136
they're wrong.

01:11:30.576 --> 01:11:31.157
Exactly.

01:11:31.296 --> 01:11:32.697
Like every single one of those pieces of

01:11:32.716 --> 01:11:35.057
data, it's like a Venn diagram for like,

01:11:35.279 --> 01:11:36.479
you just keep adding more circles.

01:11:36.498 --> 01:11:37.279
And at the end of the day,

01:11:37.640 --> 01:11:39.000
there's only going to be one person in

01:11:39.020 --> 01:11:40.720
the middle of all of those circles, right?

01:11:40.740 --> 01:11:42.582
You can get very specific with very broad

01:11:42.601 --> 01:11:43.903
data.

01:11:43.922 --> 01:11:44.063
Dude,

01:11:44.082 --> 01:11:45.023
that is a really good way to put

01:11:45.063 --> 01:11:45.143
it.

01:11:45.203 --> 01:11:46.203
I like that.

01:11:46.224 --> 01:11:46.564
That was good.

01:11:47.618 --> 01:11:49.899
The next story in here I think answers

01:11:50.020 --> 01:11:52.280
Jordan's question in the chat.

01:11:52.440 --> 01:11:53.360
Does this affect the U.S.

01:11:53.461 --> 01:11:54.822
only or the whole world?

01:11:55.561 --> 01:11:56.743
Do you have that story pulled up on

01:11:56.783 --> 01:11:57.302
your screen here?

01:11:57.323 --> 01:11:57.563
Let me see.

01:11:58.283 --> 01:11:59.024
I do, yeah.

01:11:59.184 --> 01:12:00.984
So this is just kind of rounding off

01:12:01.024 --> 01:12:02.585
our trio of TikTok stories.

01:12:02.784 --> 01:12:06.567
So because TikTok – and I'll be honest.

01:12:06.627 --> 01:12:07.667
I don't even know the full answer to

01:12:07.686 --> 01:12:08.448
this story myself.

01:12:08.967 --> 01:12:10.068
I am very unclear.

01:12:10.948 --> 01:12:11.729
Did –

01:12:12.310 --> 01:12:14.390
all of TikTok just get sold to a

01:12:14.430 --> 01:12:18.033
bunch of US and one UAE investment

01:12:18.073 --> 01:12:20.175
companies or did only part of it?

01:12:20.314 --> 01:12:22.076
It is only the American one.

01:12:23.716 --> 01:12:25.478
Only American TikTok is sold to this.

01:12:25.618 --> 01:12:27.878
The worldwide TikTok continues to be owned

01:12:27.979 --> 01:12:29.399
by ByteDance.

01:12:30.081 --> 01:12:31.702
But how this affects TikTok, I think,

01:12:32.282 --> 01:12:34.563
is still a good question and it's unclear.

01:12:34.582 --> 01:12:35.703
And I think that that is the point

01:12:35.743 --> 01:12:37.145
of this story here.

01:12:37.164 --> 01:12:39.025
It's like Canada is now looking into this.

01:12:39.426 --> 01:12:41.587
I think especially because I would imagine

01:12:42.007 --> 01:12:45.751
just proximity to the US could get like

01:12:45.770 --> 01:12:47.453
some Canadian users lumped into this

01:12:47.493 --> 01:12:49.154
American version of the platform because

01:12:49.173 --> 01:12:50.295
of, I don't know,

01:12:50.354 --> 01:12:51.695
geolocation settings of their phone or

01:12:51.716 --> 01:12:51.996
whatever.

01:12:52.036 --> 01:12:55.418
I don't know how exactly this split works.

01:12:55.878 --> 01:12:57.900
The whole TikTok and especially like

01:12:57.980 --> 01:12:58.541
America,

01:12:59.181 --> 01:13:01.023
the American TikTok being its own thing

01:13:01.764 --> 01:13:02.704
doesn't make a lot of sense to me

01:13:02.725 --> 01:13:04.685
because it's unclear whether it federates

01:13:04.725 --> 01:13:06.368
with like the global TikTok.

01:13:06.408 --> 01:13:08.009
Do you see the same thing?

01:13:08.216 --> 01:13:08.676
content?

01:13:08.716 --> 01:13:10.018
Is it just a different algorithm?

01:13:10.838 --> 01:13:13.320
Can people outside the US see American

01:13:13.360 --> 01:13:14.041
TikToks?

01:13:15.523 --> 01:13:16.944
I unfortunately don't know enough about

01:13:16.984 --> 01:13:17.404
TikTok.

01:13:17.524 --> 01:13:20.525
But anyways, going back to this story,

01:13:20.565 --> 01:13:21.846
and you can share more about it.

01:13:22.268 --> 01:13:24.328
I think that that is the question that

01:13:24.389 --> 01:13:25.770
Canada is asking right now.

01:13:26.070 --> 01:13:27.452
I think it's unclear to everyone.

01:13:29.115 --> 01:13:29.876
Yeah,

01:13:29.895 --> 01:13:31.216
you asked a whole bunch of questions that

01:13:31.256 --> 01:13:32.176
are scary.

01:13:33.157 --> 01:13:33.377
Yeah,

01:13:33.457 --> 01:13:35.158
and that's the headline for audio

01:13:35.177 --> 01:13:35.478
listeners.

01:13:35.537 --> 01:13:35.757
It says,

01:13:35.797 --> 01:13:37.639
Canada's privacy czar seeks answers on

01:13:37.679 --> 01:13:38.899
TikTok policy updates.

01:13:38.918 --> 01:13:40.239
I don't know when we started calling

01:13:40.260 --> 01:13:41.020
everybody a czar.

01:13:41.300 --> 01:13:42.501
I don't know when that took off,

01:13:42.520 --> 01:13:43.041
and I don't like it,

01:13:43.060 --> 01:13:44.001
to be totally honest with you.

01:13:44.060 --> 01:13:46.862
But yeah, it's Canada's, oh my God,

01:13:46.881 --> 01:13:47.322
what are they?

01:13:47.341 --> 01:13:48.662
The Office of Privacy,

01:13:49.262 --> 01:13:50.682
the Office of the Privacy Commissioner of

01:13:50.722 --> 01:13:51.764
Canada, the OPC.

01:13:51.923 --> 01:13:53.663
And yeah, like you said,

01:13:54.064 --> 01:13:56.284
I know this is way more common in

01:13:56.324 --> 01:13:57.405
Europe, but even here in the U.S.,

01:13:58.524 --> 01:13:59.283
I don't know about nowadays,

01:13:59.344 --> 01:14:01.125
but historically, we've had areas,

01:14:01.225 --> 01:14:02.046
especially in the south,

01:14:02.105 --> 01:14:04.506
where people will be right on the border

01:14:04.587 --> 01:14:06.287
of Mexico and some state,

01:14:06.769 --> 01:14:08.288
and people will come back and forth.

01:14:08.309 --> 01:14:09.149
Maybe they live in Mexico,

01:14:09.170 --> 01:14:10.289
but they work in the US or vice

01:14:10.310 --> 01:14:10.711
versa.

01:14:11.850 --> 01:14:12.572
I don't know how that works,

01:14:12.591 --> 01:14:13.551
but I do know it's a thing,

01:14:14.092 --> 01:14:15.252
and I'm sure it was probably a thing

01:14:15.273 --> 01:14:15.712
in Canada.

01:14:15.793 --> 01:14:18.494
I've known a few Canadians who,

01:14:18.555 --> 01:14:19.515
growing up –

01:14:20.496 --> 01:14:21.938
Went to school or maybe not went to

01:14:21.957 --> 01:14:22.137
school,

01:14:22.158 --> 01:14:23.719
but like went to church in Seattle and

01:14:24.520 --> 01:14:25.041
maybe not Seattle.

01:14:25.060 --> 01:14:26.162
That was probably pretty far down for

01:14:26.181 --> 01:14:26.261
them.

01:14:26.301 --> 01:14:26.622
But, you know,

01:14:26.641 --> 01:14:27.823
like they were back and forth pretty

01:14:27.863 --> 01:14:29.904
regularly and they were almost like dual

01:14:29.944 --> 01:14:31.606
citizens because they're just so close to

01:14:31.627 --> 01:14:33.007
the border that they have a lot of

01:14:33.028 --> 01:14:34.470
friends and connections in the other

01:14:34.489 --> 01:14:34.890
country.

01:14:35.050 --> 01:14:36.351
And so, yeah,

01:14:36.391 --> 01:14:38.073
Canada is rightfully so trying to

01:14:38.113 --> 01:14:39.173
understand with all this.

01:14:40.015 --> 01:14:41.136
this sale going through now,

01:14:41.536 --> 01:14:42.636
what does that mean for Canadians?

01:14:42.697 --> 01:14:44.337
Will they get looped into this stuff?

01:14:45.118 --> 01:14:46.359
Will their privacy rights still be

01:14:46.399 --> 01:14:47.940
respected if they get looped in?

01:14:48.041 --> 01:14:49.622
Is TikTok going to make any effort to

01:14:50.082 --> 01:14:51.802
separate Canadian users and American

01:14:51.903 --> 01:14:52.243
users?

01:14:53.088 --> 01:14:53.328
Yeah,

01:14:54.088 --> 01:14:55.630
so we don't really have much on this

01:14:55.649 --> 01:14:56.930
story because this is just kind of the

01:14:56.970 --> 01:14:58.150
initial announcement that, hey,

01:14:58.171 --> 01:14:59.292
we're asking these questions.

01:14:59.912 --> 01:15:01.653
But I think they are very good questions.

01:15:01.672 --> 01:15:02.552
And like Jonah said,

01:15:03.833 --> 01:15:06.055
there's so many questions right now.

01:15:06.175 --> 01:15:09.716
We're trying to figure out how any of

01:15:09.735 --> 01:15:10.997
this is going to work.

01:15:11.997 --> 01:15:13.417
What are people going to see?

01:15:14.097 --> 01:15:15.118
I know Trump said that he wanted the

01:15:15.177 --> 01:15:16.759
algorithm to be retrained once America

01:15:16.798 --> 01:15:17.179
bought it.

01:15:17.760 --> 01:15:18.739
So yeah,

01:15:18.779 --> 01:15:20.100
there's a lot of things that are kind

01:15:20.121 --> 01:15:20.881
of up in the air right now.

01:15:25.619 --> 01:15:26.539
I also, real quick,

01:15:26.600 --> 01:15:28.220
I appreciate the people in the comments

01:15:28.261 --> 01:15:29.702
when I asked about sodas.

01:15:29.881 --> 01:15:32.342
And somebody said, we call it soft drink.

01:15:32.382 --> 01:15:32.962
And someone else said,

01:15:33.002 --> 01:15:34.543
we call it by its chemical compounds.

01:15:34.764 --> 01:15:38.564
So thank you, guys.

01:15:38.604 --> 01:15:42.466
But I believe Jonah is trying to fix

01:15:42.527 --> 01:15:43.787
his camera right now.

01:15:45.507 --> 01:15:47.429
And in a minute,

01:15:47.769 --> 01:15:49.069
we will start taking some viewer

01:15:49.109 --> 01:15:49.689
questions.

01:15:50.050 --> 01:15:52.810
And Jonah will return to us very shortly.

01:15:53.449 --> 01:15:53.689
Yes.

01:15:55.292 --> 01:15:55.893
Oh, he's back.

01:15:55.932 --> 01:15:56.472
He's back.

01:15:58.815 --> 01:16:03.081
All right.

01:16:03.121 --> 01:16:04.042
Did you have anything you wanted to add

01:16:04.061 --> 01:16:05.302
to the TikTok story or are you ready

01:16:05.323 --> 01:16:06.824
to move on to forum updates?

01:16:07.386 --> 01:16:07.587
No,

01:16:07.768 --> 01:16:10.890
I think I could point out this comment.

01:16:10.930 --> 01:16:12.351
Jordan just mentioned this really quick.

01:16:12.372 --> 01:16:13.873
I don't think we talked about it too

01:16:13.894 --> 01:16:14.094
much,

01:16:14.213 --> 01:16:15.975
but I definitely have seen a lot of

01:16:16.015 --> 01:16:17.938
stories about how the algorithm is

01:16:18.158 --> 01:16:18.599
changing.

01:16:18.639 --> 01:16:21.902
There's definitely been allegations of the

01:16:21.943 --> 01:16:25.386
American version of TikTok now censoring

01:16:25.586 --> 01:16:27.608
posts that are critical of the American

01:16:27.649 --> 01:16:29.109
government and that sort of thing.

01:16:31.811 --> 01:16:33.554
Yeah, very concerning for Americans.

01:16:33.594 --> 01:16:34.975
I don't think that it was the right

01:16:35.015 --> 01:16:39.859
move to sell TikTok to Larry Ellison,

01:16:39.880 --> 01:16:40.501
of all people,

01:16:40.621 --> 01:16:44.123
and to Saudi Arabian private equity

01:16:44.163 --> 01:16:45.104
companies and all that stuff.

01:16:46.445 --> 01:16:48.809
To be fair, they are Emirati,

01:16:48.868 --> 01:16:49.448
not Saudi Arabian.

01:16:49.548 --> 01:16:51.051
Oh, sorry.

01:16:51.150 --> 01:16:51.952
I did a little bit of digging.

01:16:52.912 --> 01:16:54.333
It turns out we're actually really good

01:16:54.413 --> 01:16:55.975
allies with the United Arab Emirates.

01:16:56.936 --> 01:16:59.500
so is china so you know it's like

01:16:59.520 --> 01:17:01.341
i don't like you but i like your

01:17:01.381 --> 01:17:03.203
best friend which i don't know if that

01:17:03.224 --> 01:17:05.546
makes you really mature or i don't know

01:17:06.307 --> 01:17:10.792
i i'm just asking questions yeah

01:17:12.322 --> 01:17:13.243
So yeah, as you were saying,

01:17:13.363 --> 01:17:15.385
we're going to get into questions that we

01:17:15.404 --> 01:17:15.845
see on our forum.

01:17:15.864 --> 01:17:17.126
We'll also get into questions that we've

01:17:17.166 --> 01:17:17.867
seen in the chat.

01:17:17.926 --> 01:17:19.247
I know there's some questions.

01:17:19.707 --> 01:17:21.069
We've answered some questions as they've

01:17:21.109 --> 01:17:21.390
come up,

01:17:21.409 --> 01:17:22.810
but I've seen some questions that we've

01:17:23.291 --> 01:17:24.572
moved on and we'll get back to those.

01:17:24.953 --> 01:17:26.573
So stay tuned for that.

01:17:27.574 --> 01:17:29.796
But yeah, in the meantime,

01:17:30.077 --> 01:17:32.658
let's talk about a couple top posts that

01:17:32.679 --> 01:17:34.900
we've seen in our community and on our

01:17:35.060 --> 01:17:35.480
forum.

01:17:36.242 --> 01:17:38.583
I think the...

01:17:40.171 --> 01:17:42.171
Big one for this week is, of course,

01:17:42.292 --> 01:17:43.872
it's Data Privacy Week,

01:17:44.033 --> 01:17:46.434
which is always an exciting time for all

01:17:46.474 --> 01:17:47.314
of us in privacy.

01:17:48.414 --> 01:17:50.476
Oh yeah, you have it pulled up here.

01:17:51.176 --> 01:17:54.057
We had a Data Privacy Day post,

01:17:54.118 --> 01:17:55.298
but basically on Wednesday the

01:17:55.319 --> 01:17:55.918
twenty-eighth,

01:17:57.039 --> 01:17:58.701
it was International Data Privacy Day.

01:17:59.541 --> 01:18:00.122
Kind of just

01:18:01.733 --> 01:18:06.015
A yearly event that a lot of organizations

01:18:06.074 --> 01:18:07.176
in the privacy space,

01:18:07.216 --> 01:18:09.296
both on the business and consumer side,

01:18:10.157 --> 01:18:13.038
really try to focus on personal privacy

01:18:13.078 --> 01:18:15.099
improvements and switching to private

01:18:15.140 --> 01:18:16.920
alternatives and all of that sort of

01:18:16.979 --> 01:18:17.360
stuff.

01:18:17.621 --> 01:18:19.341
And so we've been posting some things

01:18:19.381 --> 01:18:20.942
throughout the week on our social media

01:18:20.962 --> 01:18:21.802
channels about

01:18:22.462 --> 01:18:24.623
Data Privacy Day and Data Privacy Week,

01:18:25.265 --> 01:18:28.046
ways that people can get into switching to

01:18:28.087 --> 01:18:29.828
more private alternatives.

01:18:31.229 --> 01:18:33.409
And we talked a bit about on our

01:18:33.449 --> 01:18:34.451
forum, I think,

01:18:35.030 --> 01:18:36.032
as Nate looks through that,

01:18:36.091 --> 01:18:39.894
about how people are preparing for for

01:18:39.934 --> 01:18:43.036
twenty twenty six and how and.

01:18:43.055 --> 01:18:43.256
Yeah,

01:18:43.296 --> 01:18:45.118
what people are doing to be more private,

01:18:45.158 --> 01:18:46.537
which is super cool.

01:18:47.658 --> 01:18:49.260
So I don't know if there's any specific

01:18:49.300 --> 01:18:50.841
posts you wanted to highlight,

01:18:50.881 --> 01:18:51.060
but

01:18:53.096 --> 01:18:54.757
Well, I do love that hail privacy one.

01:18:54.778 --> 01:18:57.259
That cracks me up.

01:18:57.279 --> 01:18:58.880
But yeah, I mean, no, there's, I mean,

01:18:59.739 --> 01:19:00.940
it runs the gamut here, right?

01:19:00.980 --> 01:19:01.100
Like,

01:19:01.121 --> 01:19:02.761
let me scroll back to the top here.

01:19:03.902 --> 01:19:04.101
You know,

01:19:04.202 --> 01:19:05.983
one person said one goal for twenty twenty

01:19:06.023 --> 01:19:07.844
six is to fully move over to ProtonMail,

01:19:07.944 --> 01:19:09.765
which, you know, whether it's Proton,

01:19:09.885 --> 01:19:11.626
Tudor, something else.

01:19:12.386 --> 01:19:12.666
What is it?

01:19:12.685 --> 01:19:13.086
Mailbox?

01:19:13.126 --> 01:19:14.127
Is that the other one we recommend?

01:19:15.146 --> 01:19:17.387
Um, whether it's one of those services,

01:19:17.408 --> 01:19:18.627
whichever one it's, it's, you know,

01:19:18.667 --> 01:19:21.088
it's no small feat to move email.

01:19:21.149 --> 01:19:23.090
And fortunately that is something you can

01:19:23.109 --> 01:19:23.649
do yourself.

01:19:23.689 --> 01:19:25.171
You know, it's not like a signal,

01:19:25.190 --> 01:19:26.610
which thankfully signal is getting really

01:19:26.650 --> 01:19:28.091
common, but it's still,

01:19:28.212 --> 01:19:29.332
you have to have other people to talk

01:19:29.372 --> 01:19:29.532
to you.

01:19:29.572 --> 01:19:29.752
Right.

01:19:29.771 --> 01:19:30.792
We talked about that earlier with the

01:19:30.813 --> 01:19:31.412
WhatsApp story.

01:19:31.832 --> 01:19:33.414
Email, you can move that by yourself.

01:19:33.475 --> 01:19:34.155
Nobody's stopping you,

01:19:34.195 --> 01:19:35.756
but it is still a lot of work.

01:19:35.777 --> 01:19:37.179
And actually, uh,

01:19:37.198 --> 01:19:39.240
many years ago I moved from Yahoo to

01:19:39.280 --> 01:19:43.564
Gmail and I spent years still getting like

01:19:43.604 --> 01:19:44.987
this account that I forgot about that's

01:19:45.407 --> 01:19:46.809
went to Yahoo instead of Gmail.

01:19:46.828 --> 01:19:49.171
So, you know, it's, it's, um,

01:19:49.211 --> 01:19:50.712
it's a lot of work and, uh,

01:19:52.028 --> 01:19:52.287
Yeah.

01:19:52.408 --> 01:19:54.109
One person gave the advice about the

01:19:54.130 --> 01:19:55.331
rabbit hole is very deep and it's

01:19:55.371 --> 01:19:57.231
understandable temptation to give up,

01:19:57.351 --> 01:19:59.373
but don't start with the low hanging fruit

01:19:59.394 --> 01:20:00.755
and work your way up the privacy tree

01:20:00.835 --> 01:20:01.716
one step at a time.

01:20:01.855 --> 01:20:03.738
So, um, yeah,

01:20:03.757 --> 01:20:05.998
they talked about smart TVs and they're

01:20:06.300 --> 01:20:07.581
trying to replace it with something that's

01:20:07.600 --> 01:20:09.322
a little bit more privacy friendly.

01:20:10.222 --> 01:20:10.382
Um,

01:20:12.014 --> 01:20:13.734
Yeah, they talked about, let's see,

01:20:13.795 --> 01:20:14.916
just kind of harm reduction.

01:20:15.055 --> 01:20:16.016
I know that's a big thing for me

01:20:16.056 --> 01:20:17.398
is they said that their partner has

01:20:17.457 --> 01:20:18.298
certain disabilities.

01:20:18.359 --> 01:20:20.079
So unfortunately,

01:20:20.119 --> 01:20:21.421
they can't really get away from like a

01:20:21.480 --> 01:20:22.462
normal phone and stuff.

01:20:22.502 --> 01:20:24.243
But they said they're researching a way to

01:20:24.302 --> 01:20:25.844
run some old Linux computers and get the

01:20:25.884 --> 01:20:27.324
same television programming with more

01:20:27.364 --> 01:20:27.864
privacy.

01:20:28.065 --> 01:20:31.368
And so, yeah, pretty cool stuff.

01:20:37.422 --> 01:20:39.725
We can get into some viewer questions.

01:20:39.784 --> 01:20:41.046
I think it's about that time.

01:20:42.268 --> 01:20:43.930
First one I saw in the chat,

01:20:44.470 --> 01:20:45.511
this was for you, Nate.

01:20:46.112 --> 01:20:47.974
What ThinkPad are you using right now and

01:20:48.014 --> 01:20:49.735
why?

01:20:50.235 --> 01:20:55.381
I am using a ThinkPad X-TX because it

01:20:55.421 --> 01:20:56.082
was a gift.

01:20:57.841 --> 01:21:00.262
And it was free and I run cubes

01:21:00.323 --> 01:21:00.583
on it.

01:21:00.684 --> 01:21:03.105
So I'm actually reading the chat from a

01:21:03.145 --> 01:21:04.287
cubes computer from,

01:21:04.447 --> 01:21:06.247
I have a little VM just for my

01:21:06.287 --> 01:21:07.309
work in privacy guides.

01:21:07.668 --> 01:21:15.335
And yeah, I mean, I like it.

01:21:15.496 --> 01:21:16.475
It's a little bit slow.

01:21:16.536 --> 01:21:17.737
I think the processor is,

01:21:18.457 --> 01:21:20.118
I think this computer is from like, so,

01:21:20.139 --> 01:21:20.319
you know,

01:21:20.338 --> 01:21:21.761
this processor struggles a little bit,

01:21:21.900 --> 01:21:24.262
but yeah, but you know, it's not bad.

01:21:24.483 --> 01:21:25.764
And it's definitely like, I couldn't,

01:21:27.484 --> 01:21:28.746
I can never do any kind of video

01:21:28.786 --> 01:21:29.827
editing or gaming.

01:21:29.867 --> 01:21:31.448
And also, the screen's a little bit small.

01:21:31.528 --> 01:21:33.090
But it's great when I travel.

01:21:33.489 --> 01:21:34.650
I went to Europe late last year.

01:21:34.731 --> 01:21:36.493
And last week,

01:21:36.512 --> 01:21:37.514
you guys saw me with the,

01:21:37.875 --> 01:21:38.975
what did I call it earlier?

01:21:41.037 --> 01:21:42.399
I called my other computer something.

01:21:43.140 --> 01:21:44.381
It's like a billboard or something.

01:21:44.400 --> 01:21:44.801
I don't know.

01:21:44.841 --> 01:21:45.180
But yeah,

01:21:45.421 --> 01:21:47.703
my other computer is massive and covers my

01:21:47.743 --> 01:21:48.143
whole face.

01:21:48.162 --> 01:21:49.363
And this guy's like fourteen inches.

01:21:49.404 --> 01:21:50.564
So it sat right in front of me

01:21:50.604 --> 01:21:51.944
on the plane.

01:21:51.984 --> 01:21:54.226
Nice and and nice and neat.

01:21:54.247 --> 01:21:55.747
And that was really, really handy.

01:21:55.807 --> 01:21:57.229
And it's a little slow,

01:21:57.248 --> 01:21:58.408
but it runs everything just fine.

01:21:58.429 --> 01:21:59.750
And it's great for surfing the web and

01:21:59.789 --> 01:22:00.229
writing.

01:22:00.289 --> 01:22:02.110
And so, yeah, I mean,

01:22:02.131 --> 01:22:03.671
I'm going to use it until the day

01:22:03.712 --> 01:22:05.233
it stops booting or something.

01:22:05.252 --> 01:22:09.695
So, yeah.

01:22:09.735 --> 01:22:09.996
Let's see.

01:22:10.036 --> 01:22:10.997
I'm looking through here.

01:22:13.144 --> 01:22:15.546
We didn't seem to get any chats on

01:22:15.587 --> 01:22:19.431
the forum, which is unfortunate.

01:22:19.492 --> 01:22:20.934
There's a couple more chats in here.

01:22:21.033 --> 01:22:21.373
And yeah,

01:22:21.493 --> 01:22:23.036
if anyone's watching and has questions,

01:22:23.617 --> 01:22:24.578
this is a good time to leave them

01:22:25.078 --> 01:22:25.719
in the chat.

01:22:29.024 --> 01:22:31.006
Got another one here from Dread Pirate

01:22:31.067 --> 01:22:31.466
Roberts.

01:22:31.527 --> 01:22:33.288
Do you guys think that all of these

01:22:33.328 --> 01:22:34.510
bad laws like chat control,

01:22:34.569 --> 01:22:35.490
ID verification,

01:22:35.551 --> 01:22:37.432
facial recognition are done in bad faith

01:22:37.453 --> 01:22:39.414
to gain more control over the population

01:22:39.975 --> 01:22:42.097
or just bumbling politicians making these

01:22:42.377 --> 01:22:42.818
mistakes?

01:22:44.895 --> 01:22:46.817
That one I think I did answer a

01:22:46.856 --> 01:22:47.396
bit, I guess,

01:22:47.417 --> 01:22:49.920
when I pulled up our recent tweet about

01:22:49.979 --> 01:22:50.239
that.

01:22:50.359 --> 01:22:54.583
I do think that the direction that a

01:22:54.623 --> 01:22:56.605
lot of Western countries are going in

01:22:56.626 --> 01:22:59.448
right now is towards more authoritarian

01:22:59.488 --> 01:23:01.690
practices and towards more control over

01:23:01.711 --> 01:23:02.912
their own citizens,

01:23:02.971 --> 01:23:04.533
which I think is really unfortunate.

01:23:04.673 --> 01:23:06.295
I think that that is a driving factor

01:23:06.375 --> 01:23:08.858
behind a lot of them.

01:23:10.998 --> 01:23:13.239
So, yeah, I don't think it's great.

01:23:13.420 --> 01:23:15.140
Did you have any additional thoughts on

01:23:15.180 --> 01:23:15.520
that, Nate?

01:23:17.141 --> 01:23:19.243
I think in answer to the actual question,

01:23:19.262 --> 01:23:20.842
I think it's both because, you know,

01:23:20.962 --> 01:23:22.804
something that one of the podcasts I

01:23:22.823 --> 01:23:23.144
listen to,

01:23:23.184 --> 01:23:24.585
something the host says a lot is

01:23:25.085 --> 01:23:26.565
everybody's the hero of their own story,

01:23:26.685 --> 01:23:26.945
right?

01:23:27.286 --> 01:23:28.386
Like, nobody...

01:23:29.625 --> 01:23:31.987
nobody thinks they're the bad guy.

01:23:32.127 --> 01:23:32.266
Even,

01:23:32.426 --> 01:23:34.268
even when they are doing objectively evil

01:23:34.287 --> 01:23:36.350
things in their mind, it's like, well,

01:23:36.369 --> 01:23:37.751
this is a means to an end, right?

01:23:37.791 --> 01:23:38.930
Like this is going to make the world

01:23:38.951 --> 01:23:40.091
a better place in the long run.

01:23:40.452 --> 01:23:42.474
And I have to literally kill people to

01:23:42.493 --> 01:23:44.694
do it, but you know, that's their logic.

01:23:44.914 --> 01:23:46.917
And I think there are a lot of

01:23:46.976 --> 01:23:50.738
politicians who want to protect children

01:23:50.918 --> 01:23:52.541
and just don't understand that this is not

01:23:52.740 --> 01:23:53.581
the best way to do it.

01:23:55.301 --> 01:23:55.563
You know,

01:23:56.342 --> 01:23:58.829
whether that's technical misunderstanding

01:23:58.850 --> 01:23:59.190
or whatever.

01:24:01.083 --> 01:24:01.984
And don't get me wrong.

01:24:02.024 --> 01:24:03.246
There's definitely a lot of politicians

01:24:03.265 --> 01:24:04.225
that are also just like, hey, man,

01:24:04.246 --> 01:24:05.247
whatever lines my pocket,

01:24:05.266 --> 01:24:06.627
whatever makes me more powerful,

01:24:06.707 --> 01:24:07.969
more prestigious, whatever.

01:24:08.809 --> 01:24:09.729
I don't want to let those guys off

01:24:09.750 --> 01:24:10.069
the hook.

01:24:10.130 --> 01:24:11.730
But yeah, I mean,

01:24:11.831 --> 01:24:13.252
even the people who are genuinely doing

01:24:13.292 --> 01:24:14.073
this because they're like, oh,

01:24:14.092 --> 01:24:15.252
this will make me more powerful.

01:24:15.753 --> 01:24:17.515
I think in their head, they're like,

01:24:17.895 --> 01:24:20.056
this will make me more powerful and I

01:24:20.077 --> 01:24:21.818
can make the world a better place by

01:24:21.877 --> 01:24:22.757
my definition,

01:24:23.319 --> 01:24:25.460
which unfortunately means a lot of other

01:24:25.479 --> 01:24:27.100
people tend to suffer along the way.

01:24:27.140 --> 01:24:28.021
So, yeah.

01:24:28.082 --> 01:24:28.242
Yeah.

01:24:31.822 --> 01:24:33.203
One I did see here that I wanted

01:24:33.243 --> 01:24:34.845
to kind of touch on a little bit.

01:24:35.505 --> 01:24:36.645
I think this was right before the one

01:24:36.686 --> 01:24:37.567
you shared.

01:24:38.729 --> 01:24:39.569
Computer's going slow here.

01:24:41.139 --> 01:24:43.359
Um, this captain haddock said, uh,

01:24:43.500 --> 01:24:44.720
surely mass level awareness and

01:24:44.779 --> 01:24:46.201
educational privacy is necessary.

01:24:46.240 --> 01:24:47.621
Majority public simply don't have the

01:24:47.640 --> 01:24:49.282
capacity to understand how privacy works

01:24:49.301 --> 01:24:50.061
in a technical sense.

01:24:51.103 --> 01:24:51.603
I disagree.

01:24:51.622 --> 01:24:52.462
Um, I mean, I don't,

01:24:52.483 --> 01:24:53.722
I don't want to get too pedantic here.

01:24:53.783 --> 01:24:54.844
I mean, people are smart, right?

01:24:55.203 --> 01:24:55.404
Well,

01:24:55.863 --> 01:24:56.904
to borrow the line from men in black,

01:24:57.005 --> 01:24:57.984
a person is smart.

01:24:58.425 --> 01:24:59.045
I will agree with that.

01:24:59.564 --> 01:25:00.605
But, um, you know, I don't,

01:25:00.626 --> 01:25:02.286
I don't think anybody is incapable of

01:25:02.326 --> 01:25:02.926
learning this stuff,

01:25:02.947 --> 01:25:03.947
but I do agree that I,

01:25:03.987 --> 01:25:05.287
I think most people don't want to learn

01:25:05.306 --> 01:25:06.688
this stuff and it's very, um,

01:25:07.228 --> 01:25:08.708
Some of this stuff is really hard to

01:25:08.729 --> 01:25:09.609
wrap your head around,

01:25:09.708 --> 01:25:11.269
even for those of us who are interested

01:25:11.309 --> 01:25:12.489
in it and really passionate about it.

01:25:13.710 --> 01:25:14.930
So yeah, I mean,

01:25:15.570 --> 01:25:16.451
I just wanted to point that out.

01:25:16.490 --> 01:25:19.591
I think when we discredit people,

01:25:19.971 --> 01:25:22.313
that's not helpful personally.

01:25:22.472 --> 01:25:25.734
But yeah, I mean, people can learn.

01:25:25.774 --> 01:25:27.574
It's hard stuff to learn.

01:25:31.655 --> 01:25:32.055
What else?

01:25:32.076 --> 01:25:33.777
We talked about regulation a little bit.

01:25:36.511 --> 01:25:37.872
we did talk about the slippery slope i

01:25:37.891 --> 01:25:39.631
know there's one user here who mentioned

01:25:39.771 --> 01:25:41.493
uh you know i see this as a

01:25:41.533 --> 01:25:42.733
stepping stone towards banning and

01:25:42.752 --> 01:25:44.734
restricted more of the internet i agree

01:25:44.774 --> 01:25:45.673
that kind of goes back to what i

01:25:45.694 --> 01:25:47.034
said about some nobody thinks they're the

01:25:47.055 --> 01:25:49.136
bad guy but sorry i see you were

01:25:49.176 --> 01:25:50.115
trying to pull one up there

01:25:51.146 --> 01:25:52.948
I was trying to pull up this question

01:25:52.969 --> 01:25:53.849
about VPN bans.

01:25:53.909 --> 01:25:56.332
I realized they're probably not asking us,

01:25:56.471 --> 01:25:58.453
but other people in the chat,

01:25:58.493 --> 01:26:00.976
because that is our own tweet that blew

01:26:01.016 --> 01:26:02.217
up about VPN bans.

01:26:03.500 --> 01:26:04.520
But yeah,

01:26:04.541 --> 01:26:06.882
it is interesting which of our posts

01:26:06.943 --> 01:26:08.564
become popular and which ones...

01:26:10.407 --> 01:26:13.850
not so much seems kind of random to

01:26:13.890 --> 01:26:16.092
me at times unfortunately but you know

01:26:16.132 --> 01:26:17.753
that's uh that's the problem with social

01:26:17.774 --> 01:26:19.655
media and these algorithms they're

01:26:19.695 --> 01:26:22.158
unpredictable and they're not really i

01:26:22.177 --> 01:26:23.539
don't think a lot of the times they

01:26:23.560 --> 01:26:26.603
get um our message out in front of

01:26:26.943 --> 01:26:28.163
people who are interested in reading it

01:26:28.184 --> 01:26:31.186
but sometimes it works out so social media

01:26:33.385 --> 01:26:35.246
Yeah.

01:26:35.386 --> 01:26:38.408
Here's one from culpable six, seven, five,

01:26:38.488 --> 01:26:39.028
zero.

01:26:39.667 --> 01:26:40.128
And they said,

01:26:40.149 --> 01:26:41.288
do you think privacy has been getting

01:26:41.328 --> 01:26:43.250
harder and harder to achieve over the past

01:26:43.289 --> 01:26:44.091
couple of years,

01:26:44.650 --> 01:26:45.872
as well as getting more inconvenient?

01:26:45.891 --> 01:26:46.351
For example,

01:26:46.391 --> 01:26:47.573
I keep trying to use Movad browser,

01:26:47.592 --> 01:26:49.134
but there's no dark mode on most websites

01:26:49.154 --> 01:26:49.953
and it hurts my eyes,

01:26:49.993 --> 01:26:50.793
which is minor for me,

01:26:50.814 --> 01:26:51.694
but it impacts people.

01:26:54.435 --> 01:26:54.997
I gotta be honest.

01:26:55.056 --> 01:26:55.737
I think it's both.

01:26:55.936 --> 01:26:58.899
I think on the one hand we have

01:26:59.038 --> 01:27:01.119
a proliferation of

01:27:02.086 --> 01:27:04.430
of user-friendly tools like Signal,

01:27:04.569 --> 01:27:06.912
like the Brave browser, like ProtonMail.

01:27:08.855 --> 01:27:10.719
And I realize that in a lot of

01:27:10.779 --> 01:27:11.420
cases,

01:27:15.064 --> 01:27:16.448
these tools still have shortcomings.

01:27:16.528 --> 01:27:17.087
Like I think...

01:27:18.777 --> 01:27:19.537
I'm a Tudor user,

01:27:19.677 --> 01:27:21.217
but I will objectively admit that I think

01:27:21.278 --> 01:27:22.899
Proton is the better user experience.

01:27:23.199 --> 01:27:26.601
I hate saying that.

01:27:27.702 --> 01:27:28.922
So where I'm going with that is I

01:27:29.082 --> 01:27:30.423
think we can all admit that a lot

01:27:30.444 --> 01:27:31.823
of these tools may still leave some things

01:27:31.844 --> 01:27:32.345
to be desired.

01:27:32.604 --> 01:27:33.604
Oh, right, where I was going with that.

01:27:34.185 --> 01:27:36.167
And even Proton is still missing things

01:27:36.207 --> 01:27:40.328
compared to Gmail or Google or Apple or

01:27:40.389 --> 01:27:41.130
Linux users.

01:27:42.252 --> 01:27:46.435
Anyways, but on the other hand, you know,

01:27:46.595 --> 01:27:48.698
there's also like you mentioned you want

01:27:48.717 --> 01:27:49.478
to use Mulvad browser,

01:27:49.497 --> 01:27:50.658
which I think is perfectly legit.

01:27:50.679 --> 01:27:51.520
Mulvad browser is great.

01:27:51.680 --> 01:27:52.260
I have Mulvad.

01:27:52.279 --> 01:27:53.161
Mulvad is fantastic.

01:27:53.180 --> 01:27:54.981
And so on the one hand,

01:27:55.002 --> 01:27:56.783
it could be like, well, use Brave.

01:27:56.823 --> 01:27:57.724
Brave has dark mode,

01:27:57.743 --> 01:28:00.065
but maybe Mulvad has things like maybe you

01:28:00.126 --> 01:28:01.127
agree with their definition.

01:28:01.747 --> 01:28:03.648
Their privacy method of trying to make

01:28:03.667 --> 01:28:05.128
everybody look the same like the whole Tor

01:28:05.149 --> 01:28:05.909
browser thing does.

01:28:06.510 --> 01:28:07.951
Maybe you just don't like Brave as a

01:28:07.990 --> 01:28:08.270
company,

01:28:08.310 --> 01:28:09.893
which is a totally valid take as well,

01:28:10.012 --> 01:28:11.634
in my opinion.

01:28:13.295 --> 01:28:15.036
It sucks that we don't have more really

01:28:15.076 --> 01:28:15.536
good options.

01:28:15.576 --> 01:28:17.497
When you're in mainstream technology,

01:28:17.518 --> 01:28:20.359
you have so many options that you can

01:28:20.539 --> 01:28:22.001
almost pick any of them in the work.

01:28:22.740 --> 01:28:23.902
And it sucks that we don't have that

01:28:23.942 --> 01:28:25.443
same freedom of choice with privacy

01:28:25.462 --> 01:28:25.582
issues.

01:28:25.921 --> 01:28:26.242
um,

01:28:26.282 --> 01:28:27.443
that we would as with the mainstream

01:28:27.462 --> 01:28:27.722
stuff.

01:28:27.762 --> 01:28:30.225
But also the other thing is it's,

01:28:30.364 --> 01:28:31.444
I think when we're going up against the

01:28:31.465 --> 01:28:32.666
more high level threats,

01:28:33.626 --> 01:28:35.688
I definitely worry that our privacy is not

01:28:36.287 --> 01:28:37.469
as easily achieved there.

01:28:37.569 --> 01:28:37.689
Like,

01:28:37.729 --> 01:28:39.090
I think it's really easy to opt out

01:28:39.130 --> 01:28:44.152
of the, um, the, uh, targeted advertising,

01:28:44.212 --> 01:28:45.893
mass surveillance, automated stuff.

01:28:46.394 --> 01:28:47.514
It's when you get up into the more,

01:28:47.654 --> 01:28:48.435
you know, like, um,

01:28:49.984 --> 01:28:51.024
Oh, what was that company called?

01:28:51.345 --> 01:28:52.185
Augury, I think.

01:28:52.765 --> 01:28:53.945
This was like five years ago.

01:28:54.006 --> 01:28:59.128
There was a company that was basically AI

01:28:59.189 --> 01:29:00.109
correlating traffic

01:29:00.927 --> 01:29:01.448
Years ago,

01:29:02.048 --> 01:29:03.229
this is probably actually why Mulvad

01:29:03.248 --> 01:29:03.828
rolled out data,

01:29:05.729 --> 01:29:06.850
that was their whole selling point was

01:29:06.869 --> 01:29:08.230
they would sell to the DOD and the

01:29:08.251 --> 01:29:09.810
military and law enforcement,

01:29:10.332 --> 01:29:11.372
like federal law enforcement.

01:29:11.731 --> 01:29:12.252
And they're like, yeah,

01:29:12.292 --> 01:29:13.552
we can even unmask people that are using

01:29:13.592 --> 01:29:14.033
VPNs.

01:29:14.073 --> 01:29:15.332
We can correlate the traffic and figure

01:29:15.353 --> 01:29:16.094
out where everybody's going.

01:29:16.113 --> 01:29:17.793
And pretty much your only defense was like

01:29:17.814 --> 01:29:19.034
a multi-hop VPN or Tor.

01:29:19.675 --> 01:29:21.355
And I think when you're talking about

01:29:21.376 --> 01:29:21.935
data,

01:29:22.136 --> 01:29:23.957
That level of cutting edge,

01:29:24.818 --> 01:29:26.078
I think it's getting more competitive and

01:29:26.118 --> 01:29:26.658
more difficult.

01:29:27.000 --> 01:29:29.180
But also, that's probably, to be fair,

01:29:29.220 --> 01:29:31.222
just the cat and mouse of it.

01:29:31.563 --> 01:29:33.423
They invent that, Mulvan invents data.

01:29:33.543 --> 01:29:34.625
And then they invent something else,

01:29:34.664 --> 01:29:36.386
and Mulvan invents something else.

01:29:37.006 --> 01:29:38.127
So I don't know.

01:29:38.467 --> 01:29:42.371
I try to focus on what's within our

01:29:43.851 --> 01:29:45.894
ability to control and defend against.

01:29:46.654 --> 01:29:47.715
And I try to be grateful that we

01:29:47.734 --> 01:29:49.515
do have so many good options,

01:29:49.576 --> 01:29:50.476
even if they're not perfect.

01:29:54.195 --> 01:29:54.377
Yeah.

01:29:55.787 --> 01:29:56.729
Really quick, not a question,

01:29:56.748 --> 01:29:58.630
but somebody said ByteDance is still

01:29:58.649 --> 01:29:59.930
keeping around twenty percent of the

01:29:59.990 --> 01:30:01.632
U.S.-based TikTok, but most of its U.S.

01:30:01.693 --> 01:30:02.153
ops are sold.

01:30:02.353 --> 01:30:02.512
Yeah.

01:30:02.854 --> 01:30:05.395
I don't know.

01:30:05.496 --> 01:30:08.297
It's the whole thing is like clearly not

01:30:08.358 --> 01:30:10.139
about getting ByteDance out of TikTok

01:30:10.279 --> 01:30:10.579
either.

01:30:11.220 --> 01:30:13.442
Like it's just a pure political thing

01:30:13.462 --> 01:30:13.942
going on.

01:30:14.483 --> 01:30:16.644
So I'm pretty sure that is true.

01:30:16.703 --> 01:30:18.506
I think I have I have heard that.

01:30:18.586 --> 01:30:21.268
And like the fact that it's all working

01:30:21.307 --> 01:30:22.948
together and they're maintaining this this

01:30:23.069 --> 01:30:23.489
ownership,

01:30:23.529 --> 01:30:24.711
but they're also just like

01:30:25.713 --> 01:30:27.635
partially being taken over by all these US

01:30:27.654 --> 01:30:28.074
companies.

01:30:28.176 --> 01:30:30.896
It makes no sense.

01:30:31.037 --> 01:30:32.978
And I don't know.

01:30:33.057 --> 01:30:35.920
The TikTok thing is crazy because I don't

01:30:35.939 --> 01:30:37.720
know how much you got into this in

01:30:37.780 --> 01:30:40.162
your interview with Taylor Lorenz,

01:30:40.283 --> 01:30:41.904
but I know she's been talking about this

01:30:41.944 --> 01:30:42.184
lately.

01:30:42.203 --> 01:30:43.564
I know other people have pointed it out

01:30:43.664 --> 01:30:45.725
on social media.

01:30:45.765 --> 01:30:48.207
The whole TikTok thing was started

01:30:49.007 --> 01:30:51.329
and really pushed for by the Democrats

01:30:51.369 --> 01:30:52.871
during Biden's administration.

01:30:52.930 --> 01:30:55.032
And I think a lot of people like

01:30:55.051 --> 01:30:56.712
people in our position at the time were

01:30:56.752 --> 01:30:59.876
saying like, oh, if we let this happen,

01:30:59.935 --> 01:31:01.457
if we let the Democrats

01:31:02.417 --> 01:31:04.560
do this and push this forward this is

01:31:04.600 --> 01:31:06.900
going to obviously be misused by some

01:31:06.940 --> 01:31:08.903
government in the future and then lo and

01:31:08.943 --> 01:31:11.123
behold you know a few years later that

01:31:11.163 --> 01:31:15.367
is exactly what is happening right we I

01:31:15.386 --> 01:31:17.127
don't know it's that could be a whole

01:31:17.207 --> 01:31:21.912
political discussion but yeah it we're

01:31:21.931 --> 01:31:26.475
really I think that the American the state

01:31:26.494 --> 01:31:28.036
of America right now is just concerning

01:31:28.076 --> 01:31:29.237
because um

01:31:31.457 --> 01:31:33.618
A lot of people are working towards like

01:31:33.677 --> 01:31:35.319
all of the problems that we're seeing now.

01:31:35.378 --> 01:31:37.621
It's not just like the current

01:31:37.640 --> 01:31:39.202
administration right now decided to do

01:31:39.221 --> 01:31:39.561
this, right?

01:31:39.601 --> 01:31:40.582
This was a long time in the making.

01:31:40.622 --> 01:31:43.264
It was a bipartisan effort to take over

01:31:43.304 --> 01:31:43.744
TikTok.

01:31:44.185 --> 01:31:46.246
And now we're seeing the results of that.

01:31:46.586 --> 01:31:49.427
And I think that that's really

01:31:49.488 --> 01:31:50.048
unfortunate.

01:31:50.408 --> 01:31:51.408
Exactly like Jordan,

01:31:52.489 --> 01:31:53.650
one of our producers just said,

01:31:54.310 --> 01:31:55.372
seems like they wanted to control the

01:31:55.412 --> 01:31:55.832
algorithm.

01:31:55.851 --> 01:31:56.051
Yeah,

01:31:56.091 --> 01:31:59.113
that was pretty much the only goal with

01:31:59.194 --> 01:32:00.354
all this TikTok stuff, which...

01:32:01.231 --> 01:32:01.551
I don't know.

01:32:01.813 --> 01:32:05.056
It shouldn't be in control of any of

01:32:05.096 --> 01:32:05.596
these governments,

01:32:05.617 --> 01:32:06.618
you can definitely argue.

01:32:07.680 --> 01:32:09.943
It wasn't great in China's hands either,

01:32:10.162 --> 01:32:13.407
but we haven't improved the situation for

01:32:13.447 --> 01:32:15.248
sure.

01:32:15.288 --> 01:32:16.109
And this is, yeah,

01:32:16.170 --> 01:32:17.832
just to agree with you, this is why...

01:32:19.720 --> 01:32:22.141
I love the analogy of Kerry Parker from

01:32:22.181 --> 01:32:23.182
Firewall's Don't Stop Dragons.

01:32:23.502 --> 01:32:25.583
He refers to personal data as like

01:32:25.644 --> 01:32:26.645
radioactive waste.

01:32:26.824 --> 01:32:27.164
And he's like,

01:32:27.185 --> 01:32:29.266
you want as little of it as possible

01:32:29.306 --> 01:32:30.967
because you can't handle it safely.

01:32:31.448 --> 01:32:32.948
And the stakes are too high if something

01:32:32.969 --> 01:32:33.389
goes wrong.

01:32:33.429 --> 01:32:35.850
And it drives me insane that America has

01:32:35.911 --> 01:32:37.832
such this attitude of like, well,

01:32:37.851 --> 01:32:38.552
it's okay if

01:32:38.972 --> 01:32:40.173
Facebook collects all this data.

01:32:40.234 --> 01:32:41.335
Nevermind that there's literally a

01:32:41.414 --> 01:32:43.695
Wikipedia page full of their data breaches

01:32:43.716 --> 01:32:44.617
and privacy scandals.

01:32:45.077 --> 01:32:46.297
But, you know, it's like, oh,

01:32:46.318 --> 01:32:47.458
it's okay when we do it,

01:32:47.618 --> 01:32:49.039
but when China does it, it's bad.

01:32:49.100 --> 01:32:49.761
And it's like, or...

01:32:50.904 --> 01:32:54.046
We could just outlaw this entirely and

01:32:54.086 --> 01:32:55.145
it'll stop being a problem.

01:32:55.225 --> 01:32:56.747
I know this is really not the best

01:32:56.806 --> 01:32:57.207
example,

01:32:57.407 --> 01:32:59.807
but just because it's morally not okay.

01:33:00.247 --> 01:33:04.310
But I remember after Epstein's death,

01:33:04.550 --> 01:33:05.750
somebody did an investigation.

01:33:05.789 --> 01:33:09.570
Some reporter pulled all the location

01:33:09.610 --> 01:33:11.192
tracking data for all the cell phones that

01:33:11.212 --> 01:33:12.612
went in and out of his private island.

01:33:13.233 --> 01:33:16.154
And every single one of them that went

01:33:16.194 --> 01:33:16.694
back to Europe,

01:33:16.774 --> 01:33:18.373
as soon as they hit European airspace,

01:33:18.394 --> 01:33:19.774
the tracking data disappeared because of

01:33:19.814 --> 01:33:20.255
GDPR.

01:33:21.296 --> 01:33:22.559
And it's like, okay, yes,

01:33:22.698 --> 01:33:24.240
not a great example because it's not great

01:33:24.261 --> 01:33:25.702
that bad people got away with bad things,

01:33:26.162 --> 01:33:29.046
but that proves that GDPR works.

01:33:30.520 --> 01:33:32.643
And it's like, why can't we do that?

01:33:32.684 --> 01:33:33.965
Why can't we just get rid of the

01:33:33.984 --> 01:33:34.324
data?

01:33:34.685 --> 01:33:36.027
And then China can't use it either.

01:33:36.287 --> 01:33:38.109
Nobody can use it because it's not there.

01:33:38.569 --> 01:33:39.451
And for the record, yes,

01:33:39.570 --> 01:33:41.753
I know there will always be espionage and

01:33:41.774 --> 01:33:42.795
people who flout the rules,

01:33:43.055 --> 01:33:45.176
but it'll drop so significantly.

01:33:45.296 --> 01:33:46.639
And it would be at very least a

01:33:46.679 --> 01:33:48.560
huge step towards fixing the problem,

01:33:49.082 --> 01:33:50.222
if not a perfect solution.

01:33:50.382 --> 01:33:51.784
And it drives me insane.

01:33:53.733 --> 01:33:54.293
Absolutely.

01:33:54.694 --> 01:33:56.317
I think I don't want to bring up

01:33:56.337 --> 01:33:58.640
this whole the Epstein case and the

01:33:58.699 --> 01:34:00.082
morality of that situation.

01:34:00.122 --> 01:34:01.583
And like, obviously, you know,

01:34:02.404 --> 01:34:05.269
could somebody argue that GDPR is not

01:34:05.349 --> 01:34:06.149
really helping in that case?

01:34:06.189 --> 01:34:06.409
Maybe.

01:34:06.430 --> 01:34:06.911
I don't know.

01:34:07.091 --> 01:34:07.371
But yeah.

01:34:08.893 --> 01:34:09.653
I've talked about this.

01:34:10.774 --> 01:34:13.095
I don't remember in a post or another

01:34:13.115 --> 01:34:14.716
video a while ago.

01:34:15.858 --> 01:34:18.460
Basically, I think in the privacy space,

01:34:18.479 --> 01:34:19.400
in the security space,

01:34:19.421 --> 01:34:21.042
something we have to keep in mind is

01:34:21.103 --> 01:34:24.265
that we see a lot of stories in

01:34:24.284 --> 01:34:26.247
the news like that one that you just

01:34:26.266 --> 01:34:27.328
talked about, for example,

01:34:27.467 --> 01:34:29.069
where we're talking about criminal

01:34:29.189 --> 01:34:32.292
activity and how either, you know,

01:34:32.992 --> 01:34:34.993
they had an OPSEC failure and they were

01:34:35.033 --> 01:34:36.213
caught because they weren't private

01:34:36.234 --> 01:34:36.453
enough,

01:34:36.594 --> 01:34:38.395
or how privacy laws are protecting

01:34:38.435 --> 01:34:38.775
criminals.

01:34:38.996 --> 01:34:40.317
You see both sides of this, right?

01:34:40.737 --> 01:34:44.420
And that is the most abundant form of

01:34:44.460 --> 01:34:46.081
coverage about privacy in general.

01:34:46.100 --> 01:34:47.601
I think it's talking about how criminals

01:34:47.782 --> 01:34:49.243
are impacted because that's the most

01:34:50.063 --> 01:34:51.664
probably newsworthy stuff.

01:34:52.385 --> 01:34:55.087
But just like how you're talking about how

01:34:55.546 --> 01:34:57.328
it proves that GDPR is effective.

01:34:57.969 --> 01:35:00.189
Did GDPR maybe hinder this one specific

01:35:00.229 --> 01:35:00.470
case?

01:35:00.550 --> 01:35:00.791
Yes.

01:35:00.890 --> 01:35:02.212
But all of that data that was being

01:35:02.351 --> 01:35:02.551
used,

01:35:03.591 --> 01:35:06.153
is very commonly behind the scenes and

01:35:06.193 --> 01:35:08.453
perfectly legally being used by all of

01:35:08.474 --> 01:35:09.975
these big tech companies and all of these

01:35:10.034 --> 01:35:11.935
other organizations to do all sorts of

01:35:11.975 --> 01:35:13.735
things that aren't catching criminals,

01:35:13.836 --> 01:35:16.497
like sell you ads or try and implement

01:35:16.556 --> 01:35:19.078
algorithmic pricing or trying to just

01:35:19.158 --> 01:35:20.658
influence your opinions in general,

01:35:20.698 --> 01:35:21.819
especially on social media.

01:35:22.519 --> 01:35:26.122
And GDPR also helps prevent all of those

01:35:26.162 --> 01:35:26.422
things.

01:35:26.523 --> 01:35:28.944
But you don't hear about those stories in

01:35:28.965 --> 01:35:31.587
the news because it's not newsworthy right

01:35:31.646 --> 01:35:32.787
now, unfortunately.

01:35:33.088 --> 01:35:34.750
You only hear about these criminal cases.

01:35:34.850 --> 01:35:37.231
And so I just want to remind people

01:35:37.292 --> 01:35:41.336
I think because there is this association

01:35:41.395 --> 01:35:43.917
between privacy rights and

01:35:44.759 --> 01:35:46.359
internet freedoms and digital rights and

01:35:46.380 --> 01:35:47.801
all this stuff and criminals.

01:35:47.900 --> 01:35:50.641
It's like just because you see it in

01:35:50.681 --> 01:35:52.462
the context of like all of these things

01:35:52.483 --> 01:35:55.704
being proven in court cases or in criminal

01:35:55.925 --> 01:35:58.305
trials or in like law enforcement

01:35:58.426 --> 01:35:59.207
investigations,

01:35:59.606 --> 01:36:00.948
that doesn't mean it's the only place it's

01:36:00.967 --> 01:36:01.307
happening.

01:36:01.347 --> 01:36:02.769
It just means that's the only place that

01:36:02.849 --> 01:36:06.650
the mainstream news media wants to write

01:36:06.711 --> 01:36:08.292
about it in.

01:36:08.872 --> 01:36:10.672
But you can look at all of these

01:36:10.693 --> 01:36:12.634
cases and you can extrapolate

01:36:13.863 --> 01:36:15.645
into like regular everyday life,

01:36:15.765 --> 01:36:18.447
how people can improve their privacy.

01:36:18.487 --> 01:36:20.368
You can learn from the opposite mistakes

01:36:20.429 --> 01:36:20.989
of these criminals,

01:36:21.010 --> 01:36:24.011
but also how these laws can impact and

01:36:24.052 --> 01:36:26.134
protect you in other situations that

01:36:26.215 --> 01:36:26.475
aren't

01:36:28.373 --> 01:36:31.036
related to crime right gdpr protecting all

01:36:31.055 --> 01:36:34.438
of that data certainly hinders all of

01:36:34.478 --> 01:36:35.859
these bad things that i just talked about

01:36:35.939 --> 01:36:39.001
happening um even if it's not widely

01:36:39.041 --> 01:36:41.622
reported on and so i always just want

01:36:41.641 --> 01:36:43.603
to make that reminder because when we talk

01:36:43.622 --> 01:36:45.104
about criminal activity a lot i think that

01:36:45.144 --> 01:36:46.305
always comes up it's like why are you

01:36:46.324 --> 01:36:48.746
just defending criminals and that's not

01:36:48.865 --> 01:36:51.167
that's not the case but they just have

01:36:51.207 --> 01:36:52.488
the best cases to learn from

01:36:54.524 --> 01:36:55.605
Yeah, it's like that whole,

01:36:56.265 --> 01:36:56.725
like you were saying,

01:36:57.447 --> 01:37:01.288
news by definition is out of the ordinary.

01:37:02.289 --> 01:37:04.291
Like we don't talk about how, you know,

01:37:04.310 --> 01:37:07.733
the ten thousand people today use graphene

01:37:07.752 --> 01:37:09.554
and went to work and went home and

01:37:09.634 --> 01:37:11.095
were completely normal law abiding

01:37:11.135 --> 01:37:11.815
citizens.

01:37:12.275 --> 01:37:13.396
It's you know, it's when it's, oh,

01:37:13.417 --> 01:37:14.777
this guy was arrested and he was using

01:37:14.818 --> 01:37:17.618
this weird phone that erases itself.

01:37:17.658 --> 01:37:19.039
And it's like, OK, cool.

01:37:19.119 --> 01:37:19.380
Yeah.

01:37:19.439 --> 01:37:20.980
Like, obviously, that's interesting,

01:37:21.442 --> 01:37:22.902
but that's not reflective of reality.

01:37:22.942 --> 01:37:23.443
Yeah.

01:37:23.542 --> 01:37:23.682
Yeah.

01:37:25.470 --> 01:37:27.095
Let's get to our last few questions here.

01:37:27.337 --> 01:37:29.082
Here's one from DQ.

01:37:30.225 --> 01:37:31.831
Sorry, I think I clicked on one.

01:37:32.509 --> 01:37:33.569
Sorry, you can do yours first then.

01:37:33.590 --> 01:37:35.631
That's fine.

01:37:35.650 --> 01:37:35.850
Okay, sorry.

01:37:35.872 --> 01:37:36.212
Real quick.

01:37:36.271 --> 01:37:37.632
Yeah, Dread Pirate Roberts said,

01:37:37.693 --> 01:37:39.253
as more and more services block VPNs,

01:37:39.293 --> 01:37:40.515
are there any solutions to be able to

01:37:40.534 --> 01:37:41.815
have privacy without being blocked?

01:37:42.837 --> 01:37:45.899
Again, VPNs aren't everything,

01:37:46.059 --> 01:37:47.340
but I think we will see like,

01:37:47.899 --> 01:37:50.402
I know Proton and I think Mulvad and

01:37:50.421 --> 01:37:51.502
I think a couple others also do.

01:37:51.542 --> 01:37:53.944
They have obfuscation to try and make it

01:37:53.984 --> 01:37:55.006
so you can use it and it won't

01:37:55.025 --> 01:37:55.466
be blocked.

01:37:55.985 --> 01:37:57.988
And I know when India started requiring

01:37:58.047 --> 01:37:59.109
VPNs to keep logs,

01:37:59.548 --> 01:38:00.869
they did some kind of trickery where they

01:38:00.949 --> 01:38:02.530
were able to move servers out of the

01:38:02.570 --> 01:38:02.971
country,

01:38:03.591 --> 01:38:04.993
but somehow address them in a way where

01:38:05.012 --> 01:38:06.354
they looked like they were in the country.

01:38:06.373 --> 01:38:09.015
So basically Indian users could still use

01:38:09.077 --> 01:38:10.637
proton and be in India,

01:38:10.677 --> 01:38:11.658
quote unquote in India,

01:38:12.158 --> 01:38:13.439
but proton wasn't in India.

01:38:13.479 --> 01:38:14.740
So they didn't have to comply with the

01:38:14.761 --> 01:38:15.060
laws.

01:38:15.180 --> 01:38:15.462
I don't know.

01:38:15.502 --> 01:38:18.644
That's way over my head, but yeah,

01:38:18.663 --> 01:38:20.265
I think we'll still see, and you know,

01:38:20.284 --> 01:38:22.306
we'll still have things like tour now

01:38:22.407 --> 01:38:23.368
until they outlaw that too.

01:38:24.588 --> 01:38:24.828
I mean, I,

01:38:25.514 --> 01:38:26.256
It's a cat and mouse.

01:38:26.417 --> 01:38:27.762
I think we'll have options.

01:38:27.882 --> 01:38:28.324
But yeah,

01:38:28.525 --> 01:38:30.875
it will definitely get harder and be more

01:38:30.914 --> 01:38:31.237
difficult.

01:38:32.011 --> 01:38:34.511
Just to reply to the residential IP aspect

01:38:34.551 --> 01:38:35.351
of this really quick,

01:38:35.471 --> 01:38:38.033
I want to say you're correct that the

01:38:38.073 --> 01:38:40.993
residential IP and proxy space is very

01:38:41.033 --> 01:38:41.454
shady.

01:38:42.154 --> 01:38:44.155
I definitely wouldn't support it even if

01:38:44.195 --> 01:38:48.136
it does work because a lot of these

01:38:48.176 --> 01:38:50.278
residential IP proxy brokers,

01:38:50.337 --> 01:38:53.378
they are basically running criminal

01:38:53.458 --> 01:38:54.840
organizations and they are

01:38:55.960 --> 01:38:58.101
tricking people into installing malware on

01:38:58.122 --> 01:39:00.224
their computers or tricking people into

01:39:00.264 --> 01:39:02.545
buying like these cheap Amazon or not

01:39:02.625 --> 01:39:05.247
Amazon but Android TV boxes on Amazon and

01:39:05.287 --> 01:39:06.849
other marketplaces to connect to their

01:39:06.889 --> 01:39:08.250
networks and that's how they get all these

01:39:08.289 --> 01:39:11.391
residential IPs right and funding those

01:39:11.431 --> 01:39:14.033
operations it puts a lot of like regular

01:39:14.094 --> 01:39:15.534
people in danger because like law

01:39:15.555 --> 01:39:17.936
enforcement goes after those people all

01:39:17.957 --> 01:39:19.797
the time because they're hosting like

01:39:19.818 --> 01:39:21.579
basically an exit node for a VPN that's

01:39:21.659 --> 01:39:23.740
handling all sorts of crazy traffic right

01:39:23.820 --> 01:39:24.341
and it's

01:39:26.847 --> 01:39:29.390
Not an ideal situation for anyone

01:39:29.430 --> 01:39:29.791
involved,

01:39:29.831 --> 01:39:31.152
so it's definitely not something that I

01:39:31.192 --> 01:39:35.216
would pursue personally if I were you.

01:39:35.317 --> 01:39:37.838
I would avoid the whole residential IP

01:39:37.859 --> 01:39:41.743
space because it's pretty much all malware

01:39:41.903 --> 01:39:43.024
that's driving that,

01:39:43.064 --> 01:39:44.286
and that's not something that should be

01:39:44.445 --> 01:39:45.306
really supported, I think.

01:39:47.594 --> 01:39:48.534
Real quick on a personal note,

01:39:48.555 --> 01:39:50.778
Dread Pirates Roberts said there's a

01:39:51.179 --> 01:39:52.541
documentary from Vice that shows the

01:39:52.581 --> 01:39:54.222
facial recognition capabilities in China

01:39:54.302 --> 01:39:55.024
six years ago,

01:39:55.243 --> 01:39:56.787
and the people I've shown it to have

01:39:56.806 --> 01:39:57.568
been very receptive.

01:39:57.807 --> 01:39:59.050
Please send that my way because I want

01:39:59.069 --> 01:39:59.510
to watch that.

01:39:59.569 --> 01:39:59.990
That sounds cool.

01:40:00.011 --> 01:40:03.314
All right, what's the next one?

01:40:03.354 --> 01:40:04.457
I think you had a question lined up.

01:40:04.750 --> 01:40:06.650
I think this will be our last question

01:40:06.711 --> 01:40:08.490
of the show here,

01:40:08.650 --> 01:40:10.152
but this is from DQ.

01:40:10.192 --> 01:40:10.652
They asked,

01:40:10.872 --> 01:40:12.953
have you come across the OPSEC Bible by

01:40:13.212 --> 01:40:13.993
Nihilist?

01:40:15.333 --> 01:40:16.833
First of all, just stopping there,

01:40:16.873 --> 01:40:17.673
have you heard of this?

01:40:17.694 --> 01:40:18.835
Because I actually have not,

01:40:18.954 --> 01:40:19.635
unfortunately.

01:40:20.114 --> 01:40:20.975
I'm not sure if you're familiar.

01:40:20.996 --> 01:40:22.355
I don't think so.

01:40:22.536 --> 01:40:24.197
I want to say it sounds familiar,

01:40:24.237 --> 01:40:25.957
but I could be making that up.

01:40:26.457 --> 01:40:27.037
If I've heard of it,

01:40:27.057 --> 01:40:27.938
I've definitely never read it.

01:40:28.795 --> 01:40:28.975
Okay,

01:40:29.595 --> 01:40:30.676
that's definitely something I will have to

01:40:30.695 --> 01:40:31.095
look into.

01:40:31.176 --> 01:40:32.515
But continuing your message,

01:40:32.615 --> 01:40:33.737
I'd love to hear your thoughts on its

01:40:33.817 --> 01:40:35.778
extreme all-or-nothing privacy philosophy,

01:40:35.877 --> 01:40:37.578
especially since the guide criticizes the

01:40:37.597 --> 01:40:39.158
closed-source recommendations that appear

01:40:39.179 --> 01:40:39.859
on privacy guides.

01:40:39.939 --> 01:40:41.600
It seems to push a very different approach

01:40:41.619 --> 01:40:43.301
from the more mainstream privacy advice

01:40:43.921 --> 01:40:44.860
you usually promote.

01:40:46.702 --> 01:40:48.703
And just based on that...

01:40:50.119 --> 01:40:51.341
That is a pretty common thing that we

01:40:51.381 --> 01:40:53.622
see with a lot of privacy guides out

01:40:53.641 --> 01:40:53.783
there,

01:40:53.823 --> 01:40:56.904
especially ones that are published

01:40:56.944 --> 01:41:00.747
anonymously or are catered towards a more

01:41:00.787 --> 01:41:02.028
hardcore audience.

01:41:02.068 --> 01:41:03.548
It's definitely a different audience than

01:41:03.588 --> 01:41:04.890
we're going for.

01:41:06.091 --> 01:41:07.931
I think that the biggest thing that we

01:41:07.971 --> 01:41:10.333
try to do at Privacy Guides is try

01:41:10.354 --> 01:41:11.914
to find all of these tools in different

01:41:11.954 --> 01:41:13.036
categories that can really

01:41:14.547 --> 01:41:16.909
raise the bar for privacy as a whole.

01:41:17.609 --> 01:41:19.230
We can't solve every problem at once.

01:41:19.251 --> 01:41:20.693
And I think this ties into a lot

01:41:20.832 --> 01:41:24.095
of the things that we were talking about

01:41:24.314 --> 01:41:26.457
earlier in the show as far as convincing

01:41:26.497 --> 01:41:28.717
people to switch from WhatsApp to Signal,

01:41:28.738 --> 01:41:29.418
for example.

01:41:31.319 --> 01:41:32.220
People are using

01:41:34.280 --> 01:41:36.561
things that are crazy for your privacy and

01:41:36.622 --> 01:41:37.943
extremely privacy invasive.

01:41:37.962 --> 01:41:39.984
People are using Windows, for example,

01:41:40.003 --> 01:41:42.185
which I think is not something people

01:41:42.204 --> 01:41:44.006
should be doing in twenty twenty six.

01:41:44.586 --> 01:41:48.188
Like that's the state that most people who

01:41:48.268 --> 01:41:49.828
aren't who haven't heard of any of this

01:41:49.927 --> 01:41:51.069
are are at right now.

01:41:51.588 --> 01:41:53.510
And so switching I mean,

01:41:53.590 --> 01:41:56.612
even switching from Windows to Mac OS is

01:41:56.692 --> 01:41:56.931
not

01:41:57.631 --> 01:41:59.613
ideal and it's not like you know if

01:41:59.654 --> 01:42:00.916
somebody comes up to me it's like what's

01:42:00.935 --> 01:42:03.899
the most private operating system mac os

01:42:03.939 --> 01:42:06.962
is far behind what the actual like better

01:42:07.023 --> 01:42:09.284
ones are by by a wide margin but

01:42:09.865 --> 01:42:11.688
compared to what people are coming from

01:42:12.548 --> 01:42:14.449
which is Windows in this case,

01:42:15.511 --> 01:42:17.992
it's a huge advantage and people are more

01:42:18.072 --> 01:42:18.912
apt to switch to it.

01:42:19.252 --> 01:42:22.014
And I think that encouraging people

01:42:22.094 --> 01:42:26.077
switching to, in some cases,

01:42:26.117 --> 01:42:30.958
some proprietary systems over time is

01:42:31.059 --> 01:42:34.600
better than the situation that I think

01:42:34.942 --> 01:42:37.823
privacy guides like the OPSEC Bible in

01:42:37.842 --> 01:42:38.863
this case probably

01:42:40.582 --> 01:42:42.082
I personally think the outcome of a guide

01:42:42.122 --> 01:42:42.542
like that,

01:42:42.643 --> 01:42:43.503
if I put it in the hands of

01:42:43.524 --> 01:42:44.123
a normal person,

01:42:44.163 --> 01:42:46.945
is that they will not follow any of

01:42:46.966 --> 01:42:47.466
the advice.

01:42:47.605 --> 01:42:50.868
Because we see this even in our forum,

01:42:50.887 --> 01:42:53.548
but definitely less so recently.

01:42:53.729 --> 01:42:57.711
And we've made some changes to improve

01:42:57.751 --> 01:42:57.970
this.

01:42:58.070 --> 01:43:00.212
But it's a very common complaint, I think,

01:43:00.233 --> 01:43:02.833
in the privacy community where people feel

01:43:03.154 --> 01:43:04.335
burned out because they...

01:43:05.878 --> 01:43:07.641
need to switch like all of these things

01:43:07.702 --> 01:43:09.864
all at once and they feel the need

01:43:09.904 --> 01:43:13.270
to switch like completely cut off less

01:43:13.310 --> 01:43:14.912
private alternatives or things that their

01:43:14.953 --> 01:43:16.595
friends are using and they feel socially

01:43:16.774 --> 01:43:18.837
isolated and that's not really the goal of

01:43:18.878 --> 01:43:21.421
being private like privacy i think um

01:43:23.126 --> 01:43:23.787
gives like,

01:43:24.027 --> 01:43:25.188
it's a right that you should have,

01:43:25.228 --> 01:43:26.649
you should be able to exercise this,

01:43:26.829 --> 01:43:29.511
but it's not like you need to be

01:43:29.551 --> 01:43:31.173
completely private in all aspects of your

01:43:31.213 --> 01:43:31.434
life.

01:43:31.573 --> 01:43:32.975
Some people still need to,

01:43:33.136 --> 01:43:34.676
everyone still needs to have a social life

01:43:34.756 --> 01:43:36.219
and interact with other people and that

01:43:36.238 --> 01:43:36.679
sort of thing.

01:43:37.359 --> 01:43:39.402
And yeah, at the end of the day,

01:43:40.819 --> 01:43:42.359
When we recommend something like one

01:43:42.399 --> 01:43:43.880
password, for example,

01:43:44.000 --> 01:43:47.162
it's because we've looked at that and

01:43:47.181 --> 01:43:50.243
we've decided that compared to what other

01:43:50.262 --> 01:43:50.882
people are using,

01:43:50.903 --> 01:43:52.804
which is either no password manager at all

01:43:52.904 --> 01:43:54.305
or something like LastPass,

01:43:54.345 --> 01:43:57.565
which has notoriously a ton of data

01:43:57.586 --> 01:43:58.606
breaches and security issues,

01:43:59.367 --> 01:44:01.568
solid proprietary tools that respect your

01:44:01.587 --> 01:44:05.729
privacy relatively well are acceptable to

01:44:05.789 --> 01:44:05.930
us.

01:44:05.989 --> 01:44:07.350
And we would rather people switch to that

01:44:07.369 --> 01:44:08.591
than not follow the advice at all.

01:44:09.155 --> 01:44:11.497
And for people who are looking for more

01:44:11.577 --> 01:44:13.198
advanced or more customized

01:44:13.217 --> 01:44:14.719
recommendations or for any of that,

01:44:14.819 --> 01:44:16.899
I think we have the form which is

01:44:16.939 --> 01:44:19.020
going to be able to answer those sorts

01:44:19.060 --> 01:44:21.381
of questions for people who have moved

01:44:21.421 --> 01:44:23.582
beyond the general advice that we have on

01:44:24.023 --> 01:44:27.125
our site and who don't need an approach

01:44:27.185 --> 01:44:29.065
that we take for the general population

01:44:29.105 --> 01:44:31.947
where we try to balance privacy, security,

01:44:32.087 --> 01:44:33.228
and user experience.

01:44:33.627 --> 01:44:35.649
And you can really hone in on a

01:44:35.689 --> 01:44:36.670
good situation for you

01:44:37.846 --> 01:44:38.827
through these discussions.

01:44:38.867 --> 01:44:40.368
And I think that that's the value of

01:44:40.427 --> 01:44:44.449
the privacy guides community form that

01:44:44.510 --> 01:44:45.510
none of these guides are going to be

01:44:45.550 --> 01:44:46.130
able to provide.

01:44:46.229 --> 01:44:47.251
Because at the end of the day,

01:44:48.890 --> 01:44:51.011
all of this tailored advice is going to

01:44:51.051 --> 01:44:55.453
be better in general than any of these

01:44:55.493 --> 01:44:57.395
guides, to be honest.

01:44:57.435 --> 01:44:59.256
So that's my thoughts on that.

01:45:01.695 --> 01:45:05.119
Yeah, you kind of said what I'm thinking,

01:45:05.159 --> 01:45:06.020
so I'll keep this quick.

01:45:06.121 --> 01:45:11.104
But I think in addition to – y'all

01:45:11.126 --> 01:45:12.025
are going to get tired of hearing me

01:45:12.046 --> 01:45:12.947
say the words harm reduction.

01:45:13.967 --> 01:45:15.369
In addition to the harm reduction mindset,

01:45:15.390 --> 01:45:16.671
which I'm a huge, huge fan of,

01:45:17.212 --> 01:45:19.314
I think there's also the idea that two

01:45:19.354 --> 01:45:20.073
things can be real.

01:45:20.555 --> 01:45:22.617
I really don't like the idea –

01:45:22.777 --> 01:45:24.037
or I don't like the narrative that some

01:45:24.078 --> 01:45:25.038
people push where it's like,

01:45:25.099 --> 01:45:26.980
if you're not doing privacy my way and

01:45:27.001 --> 01:45:28.221
you're not going a hundred percent,

01:45:28.563 --> 01:45:29.103
then you're wrong.

01:45:29.222 --> 01:45:31.064
Because the fact of the matter is they're

01:45:31.085 --> 01:45:31.604
wrong too.

01:45:32.345 --> 01:45:33.787
Like the only way to really be private

01:45:33.868 --> 01:45:35.729
is to just like throw away your computer,

01:45:35.849 --> 01:45:36.750
never get on the internet,

01:45:36.990 --> 01:45:38.072
go live in a cabin in the woods,

01:45:38.311 --> 01:45:39.472
which I would like to reiterate.

01:45:39.752 --> 01:45:41.494
That's not foolproof either because they

01:45:41.515 --> 01:45:42.496
did find Ted Kaczynski.

01:45:42.975 --> 01:45:43.417
So yeah,

01:45:44.476 --> 01:45:44.777
I don't know.

01:45:45.137 --> 01:45:48.121
I really reject that whole extreme all or

01:45:48.180 --> 01:45:48.661
nothing.

01:45:49.141 --> 01:45:50.342
This is the only way to do it.

01:45:50.462 --> 01:45:51.404
I think it's really arrogant.

01:45:51.503 --> 01:45:52.664
I think it's really disrespectful.

01:45:54.025 --> 01:45:54.806
Again, I want to reiterate,

01:45:54.907 --> 01:45:55.707
I haven't read this Bible,

01:45:55.747 --> 01:45:58.350
so I'm not passing judgment on nihilists.

01:45:58.470 --> 01:45:59.452
I'm just in general.

01:46:00.112 --> 01:46:00.993
I think when people do that,

01:46:01.073 --> 01:46:01.554
it's really...

01:46:04.627 --> 01:46:05.469
I don't know, like Jonah was saying,

01:46:05.509 --> 01:46:06.288
like people have,

01:46:06.890 --> 01:46:08.671
I've seen people look at certain guides

01:46:08.731 --> 01:46:09.832
and websites and just be like, yeah,

01:46:09.853 --> 01:46:11.014
I'm not doing, and straight up say that,

01:46:11.054 --> 01:46:11.833
like, I'm not doing that.

01:46:12.414 --> 01:46:15.256
And I would rather people make small steps

01:46:15.717 --> 01:46:18.079
that do something, even if nothing.

01:46:18.199 --> 01:46:19.780
And I think some people,

01:46:20.020 --> 01:46:20.542
not all of them,

01:46:20.921 --> 01:46:22.422
but I think some people will take those

01:46:22.443 --> 01:46:24.085
small steps and go, oh,

01:46:24.104 --> 01:46:24.784
that wasn't so bad.

01:46:25.565 --> 01:46:26.567
That was actually kind of fun.

01:46:27.006 --> 01:46:27.728
What else can I do?

01:46:28.148 --> 01:46:29.168
And they'll go above and beyond.

01:46:29.269 --> 01:46:30.671
Like, I don't need to be using cubes.

01:46:30.810 --> 01:46:32.011
That is not part of my threat model.

01:46:32.631 --> 01:46:33.033
I like it.

01:46:33.353 --> 01:46:33.953
I think it's fun.

01:46:35.255 --> 01:46:35.534
So,

01:46:36.676 --> 01:46:38.136
and I think kind of going back to

01:46:38.157 --> 01:46:39.378
what I said about like two things can

01:46:39.418 --> 01:46:39.719
be real.

01:46:40.600 --> 01:46:42.100
I think it's great that there are these

01:46:42.301 --> 01:46:43.681
really hardcore guides

01:46:44.634 --> 01:46:46.475
For the people who want to be hardcore

01:46:46.534 --> 01:46:49.095
or even like when Michael Basil was doing

01:46:49.114 --> 01:46:51.155
his podcast, I would listen all the time.

01:46:51.636 --> 01:46:52.796
And I still read his books,

01:46:52.837 --> 01:46:53.936
his extreme privacy books,

01:46:54.256 --> 01:46:57.377
because I like the thought experiment.

01:46:57.398 --> 01:46:57.957
That's what I'm looking for.

01:46:57.978 --> 01:46:58.898
I like the thought experiment.

01:46:58.938 --> 01:47:00.838
I like the like knowing how deep the

01:47:00.878 --> 01:47:02.539
rabbit hole goes and just knowing what the

01:47:02.640 --> 01:47:03.140
options are.

01:47:03.460 --> 01:47:05.000
Even though ninety percent of the time I

01:47:05.039 --> 01:47:05.699
walked away going,

01:47:06.081 --> 01:47:07.060
I'm not going to do any of that.

01:47:07.480 --> 01:47:09.221
But it's really cool to know that that's

01:47:09.242 --> 01:47:10.542
a thing, and it's really interesting,

01:47:10.563 --> 01:47:11.483
and it's fun to learn about.

01:47:12.182 --> 01:47:14.364
And, you know, some people would do it,

01:47:14.385 --> 01:47:15.625
and there were some things that I would

01:47:15.645 --> 01:47:16.845
listen to and be like, oh,

01:47:16.886 --> 01:47:17.765
I think I might want to try that,

01:47:17.826 --> 01:47:18.126
actually.

01:47:18.185 --> 01:47:19.867
So I don't think it's a bad thing

01:47:19.886 --> 01:47:20.768
that this stuff is out there.

01:47:20.807 --> 01:47:21.707
I think it's really cool,

01:47:22.188 --> 01:47:23.868
as long as they're not adapting that

01:47:23.969 --> 01:47:24.770
attitude of like, well,

01:47:24.789 --> 01:47:25.590
this person's wrong.

01:47:26.551 --> 01:47:27.831
I mean, unless somebody's actually wrong,

01:47:27.871 --> 01:47:28.731
then like, hey, please,

01:47:28.792 --> 01:47:29.391
if you think we're wrong,

01:47:29.492 --> 01:47:31.393
open a thing on the forum.

01:47:31.512 --> 01:47:32.173
Like, let us know.

01:47:32.253 --> 01:47:32.434
But...

01:47:33.253 --> 01:47:34.114
It's, you know,

01:47:34.274 --> 01:47:35.896
it's respecting that there's different

01:47:35.976 --> 01:47:36.578
priorities,

01:47:36.597 --> 01:47:37.798
there's different threat models,

01:47:37.819 --> 01:47:39.000
there's different resources.

01:47:39.079 --> 01:47:39.900
Like, you know,

01:47:39.940 --> 01:47:41.162
somebody posted in the forum recently

01:47:41.222 --> 01:47:42.743
talking about they disagree with our

01:47:42.804 --> 01:47:44.065
Android recommendations because not

01:47:44.105 --> 01:47:45.127
everybody can,

01:47:45.146 --> 01:47:46.207
lives in a country where they can get

01:47:46.228 --> 01:47:47.770
a pixel or not everybody can afford one.

01:47:48.369 --> 01:47:49.612
And, you know,

01:47:49.692 --> 01:47:51.233
that's true of these more extreme privacy

01:47:51.273 --> 01:47:51.833
things too.

01:47:51.953 --> 01:47:52.734
So, yeah.

01:47:53.069 --> 01:47:53.408
Yeah.

01:47:54.751 --> 01:47:55.650
Again, haven't read it,

01:47:55.751 --> 01:47:57.432
but if he's coming at it from the

01:47:57.472 --> 01:47:58.274
perspective of like,

01:47:58.333 --> 01:47:59.694
this is how I think you can get

01:47:59.715 --> 01:48:02.056
the maximum level of privacy, then great.

01:48:02.157 --> 01:48:03.238
I think that's really cool that there are

01:48:03.278 --> 01:48:03.779
those guides,

01:48:04.139 --> 01:48:05.940
but I don't think that invalidates things

01:48:06.001 --> 01:48:07.782
like privacy guides where we say,

01:48:08.302 --> 01:48:09.564
this is probably good enough for most

01:48:09.583 --> 01:48:10.864
people.

01:48:10.965 --> 01:48:12.287
And I think both of those things can

01:48:12.327 --> 01:48:12.646
exist.

01:48:13.896 --> 01:48:16.400
And DQ, thanks for sharing in the chat.

01:48:16.600 --> 01:48:17.521
I'll link to this.

01:48:18.143 --> 01:48:19.664
I want to reiterate,

01:48:20.105 --> 01:48:21.448
nothing that I was saying before is any

01:48:21.507 --> 01:48:23.411
judgment of this guide in particular,

01:48:23.430 --> 01:48:24.631
because again, I haven't read it.

01:48:24.671 --> 01:48:25.533
Neither of us have read it.

01:48:25.713 --> 01:48:26.835
I was going to say,

01:48:26.855 --> 01:48:27.796
he might have been talking to me.

01:48:27.877 --> 01:48:29.279
It certainly could have...

01:48:31.484 --> 01:48:32.045
Good advice.

01:48:32.125 --> 01:48:32.284
Right.

01:48:32.305 --> 01:48:33.945
Uh, and, and I'll definitely check it out.

01:48:33.985 --> 01:48:35.266
So thanks again for sharing.

01:48:35.487 --> 01:48:37.927
Um, I just want to, that's,

01:48:38.047 --> 01:48:39.609
that's just my experience based on other

01:48:39.788 --> 01:48:41.189
guides and based on like what you,

01:48:41.369 --> 01:48:42.770
how you described it.

01:48:43.090 --> 01:48:43.369
Um,

01:48:43.490 --> 01:48:44.951
I I've definitely seen guys like that

01:48:44.990 --> 01:48:46.971
where yes,

01:48:47.072 --> 01:48:50.234
that it's probably not the target audience

01:48:50.253 --> 01:48:51.913
that we are trying to go for.

01:48:52.255 --> 01:48:52.795
Um,

01:48:52.895 --> 01:48:54.935
I kind of have a philosophy that like

01:48:55.916 --> 01:48:57.417
being accessible and also

01:49:00.042 --> 01:49:02.824
sort of being like a more public face

01:49:02.864 --> 01:49:03.945
when it comes to all of this,

01:49:03.985 --> 01:49:06.787
like obviously do this under my name,

01:49:06.828 --> 01:49:07.368
for example,

01:49:07.389 --> 01:49:08.529
and not a pseudonym like this.

01:49:08.590 --> 01:49:09.770
I think that that is a difference in

01:49:09.789 --> 01:49:11.492
approach and it reaches different people.

01:49:11.532 --> 01:49:13.533
And I think that guides like that and

01:49:14.673 --> 01:49:18.117
projects like Privacy Guides both serve

01:49:18.136 --> 01:49:18.837
their own purpose.

01:49:19.096 --> 01:49:20.618
But yeah,

01:49:22.359 --> 01:49:24.100
for anything more than like just the basic

01:49:24.121 --> 01:49:25.021
stuff that we have on our site,

01:49:25.042 --> 01:49:26.563
that is the point of our form.

01:49:28.600 --> 01:49:29.461
Because, yeah,

01:49:29.621 --> 01:49:30.921
I really don't know if any of these

01:49:30.962 --> 01:49:33.702
guides can really be everything for

01:49:33.761 --> 01:49:34.402
everyone, right?

01:49:34.521 --> 01:49:36.162
But I'm sure for a certain group of

01:49:36.203 --> 01:49:38.922
people, that guide could be very good.

01:49:39.323 --> 01:49:40.384
And I will definitely take a look at

01:49:40.423 --> 01:49:43.503
it because I like to read other guides

01:49:43.644 --> 01:49:46.005
out there.

01:49:46.185 --> 01:49:46.545
Yeah,

01:49:46.725 --> 01:49:48.024
I produced some of the articles on the

01:49:48.064 --> 01:49:48.404
website.

01:49:48.505 --> 01:49:49.485
I didn't go straight to the Bible.

01:49:49.506 --> 01:49:50.485
I went to the Root website.

01:49:51.706 --> 01:49:52.706
Some of it is pretty extreme,

01:49:52.746 --> 01:49:53.867
like which countries don't have

01:49:53.926 --> 01:49:54.627
extradition laws.

01:49:55.935 --> 01:49:57.197
Which, no offense to this guy,

01:49:57.216 --> 01:49:58.438
but if that's my threat model,

01:49:58.497 --> 01:49:59.899
I'm not going to trust a random website

01:49:59.918 --> 01:50:00.319
on the internet.

01:50:00.338 --> 01:50:01.659
I'm going to talk to an actual lawyer.

01:50:03.100 --> 01:50:05.023
But then others were like,

01:50:05.063 --> 01:50:06.283
how to get started with ITP,

01:50:06.344 --> 01:50:10.987
which I don't really have strong opinions

01:50:11.046 --> 01:50:14.429
on ITP, but I don't know.

01:50:14.448 --> 01:50:15.170
I'll peruse it.

01:50:16.131 --> 01:50:18.572
I'll check it out later this weekend.

01:50:18.613 --> 01:50:19.693
Some light reading for the weekend.

01:50:19.712 --> 01:50:19.972
Yes.

01:50:20.173 --> 01:50:20.394
Yes.

01:50:22.631 --> 01:50:23.131
Well, Nate,

01:50:23.350 --> 01:50:25.692
I think this probably about wraps things

01:50:25.752 --> 01:50:26.372
up here.

01:50:27.052 --> 01:50:28.332
As a quick reminder to everyone,

01:50:28.512 --> 01:50:29.953
PrivacyGuides is a nonprofit.

01:50:29.974 --> 01:50:32.114
We're dedicated to protecting our digital

01:50:32.154 --> 01:50:32.494
rights.

01:50:32.895 --> 01:50:34.595
If you want to support the show and

01:50:34.636 --> 01:50:34.996
our mission,

01:50:35.036 --> 01:50:36.896
a donation at privacyguides.org would be

01:50:37.396 --> 01:50:38.217
much appreciated.

01:50:39.698 --> 01:50:42.180
I want to thank Nate for joining me

01:50:42.220 --> 01:50:42.680
this week.

01:50:44.081 --> 01:50:46.782
Before we wrap up this broadcast here,

01:50:47.242 --> 01:50:52.064
I want to deliver a quick message as

01:50:52.104 --> 01:50:53.704
the program director of Privacy Guides

01:50:53.744 --> 01:50:55.725
about the current state of the United

01:50:55.765 --> 01:50:57.667
States of America.

01:51:00.313 --> 01:51:03.355
As a Minnesotan and a resident of the

01:51:03.395 --> 01:51:04.636
city of Minneapolis myself,

01:51:04.676 --> 01:51:06.319
this is a very important issue to me.

01:51:06.578 --> 01:51:09.122
We're only one month into twenty twenty

01:51:09.162 --> 01:51:09.783
six right now.

01:51:10.023 --> 01:51:11.184
And already this year,

01:51:11.783 --> 01:51:14.106
ICE agents of the federal government of

01:51:14.146 --> 01:51:16.328
the United States are responsible for the

01:51:16.429 --> 01:51:18.791
extrajudicial killings of two American

01:51:18.831 --> 01:51:21.554
citizens right here in my city for

01:51:21.734 --> 01:51:23.896
exercising their constitutional rights.

01:51:24.457 --> 01:51:26.457
This happened as part of a larger ICE

01:51:26.478 --> 01:51:29.018
campaign to terrorize my neighbors and

01:51:29.257 --> 01:51:29.997
this country,

01:51:30.137 --> 01:51:32.559
which is a campaign that I know many

01:51:32.599 --> 01:51:34.800
Minnesotans protested in force last week,

01:51:34.819 --> 01:51:36.979
and I know many American patriots are

01:51:37.159 --> 01:51:39.041
protesting today.

01:51:39.140 --> 01:51:41.541
Our mission at Privacy Guides has always

01:51:41.600 --> 01:51:44.341
been to support the right of privacy for

01:51:44.481 --> 01:51:45.082
all people,

01:51:45.221 --> 01:51:47.542
regardless of political views or the

01:51:47.582 --> 01:51:48.643
country that people live in.

01:51:49.023 --> 01:51:51.404
It's also our mission to speak out against

01:51:51.503 --> 01:51:52.404
government overreach,

01:51:53.024 --> 01:51:55.286
particularly when it comes to surveillance

01:51:55.426 --> 01:51:57.488
and especially when government agencies

01:51:57.569 --> 01:52:00.091
are being pitted against the very

01:52:00.131 --> 01:52:02.412
taxpayers and citizens that they are meant

01:52:02.453 --> 01:52:04.255
to protect and serve.

01:52:04.274 --> 01:52:05.416
Here in the United States,

01:52:05.676 --> 01:52:08.099
that's meant recently speaking out against

01:52:08.219 --> 01:52:09.740
the Democrats who aim to increase

01:52:09.761 --> 01:52:11.381
surveillance and censorship through bills

01:52:11.402 --> 01:52:13.465
like COSA or the planned repeals of

01:52:13.505 --> 01:52:14.185
Section two thirty.

01:52:14.985 --> 01:52:17.748
But now against republican certainly in

01:52:17.788 --> 01:52:18.448
our government,

01:52:18.789 --> 01:52:21.731
who are weaponizing the state surveillance

01:52:21.752 --> 01:52:23.613
systems and law enforcement bodies like

01:52:23.753 --> 01:52:25.916
ice to target their perceived political

01:52:25.996 --> 01:52:27.877
enemies and immigrant members of our

01:52:27.898 --> 01:52:28.399
communities,

01:52:28.439 --> 01:52:31.060
without respect to their legal residency

01:52:31.100 --> 01:52:32.903
status or any due process.

01:52:34.011 --> 01:52:36.492
this weaponization of ice by the trump

01:52:36.511 --> 01:52:38.832
administration is not happening in a

01:52:38.872 --> 01:52:41.172
vacuum it's fueled by the very

01:52:41.393 --> 01:52:43.594
surveillance data and the lack of digital

01:52:43.613 --> 01:52:45.293
boundaries that we have been fighting

01:52:45.314 --> 01:52:47.935
against for years laws which were enacted

01:52:48.215 --> 01:52:50.654
within my lifetime like the patriot act

01:52:51.235 --> 01:52:53.796
and loopholes like the continued lack of

01:52:53.855 --> 01:52:55.657
regulations against commercial data

01:52:55.676 --> 01:52:57.476
brokers which allow the government to

01:52:57.596 --> 01:52:59.938
bypass the fourth amendment entirely by

01:53:00.518 --> 01:53:03.198
purchasing our own GPS and social media

01:53:03.238 --> 01:53:05.420
data from tech companies to map out our

01:53:05.479 --> 01:53:07.301
neighborhoods for raids.

01:53:07.320 --> 01:53:09.521
Minneapolis has also become the testing

01:53:09.561 --> 01:53:12.042
ground for invasive and inaccurate facial

01:53:12.082 --> 01:53:13.984
recognition apps like Mobile Fortify,

01:53:14.043 --> 01:53:15.585
where AI glitches,

01:53:15.645 --> 01:53:17.345
just like we talked about in this episode,

01:53:17.444 --> 01:53:19.966
can lead to unlawful detentions of

01:53:20.567 --> 01:53:22.207
innocent people and the sort of

01:53:22.387 --> 01:53:24.769
state-sponsored surveillance that took the

01:53:24.809 --> 01:53:27.449
lives of Renee Nicole Goode and Alex

01:53:27.489 --> 01:53:27.829
Peretti.

01:53:29.337 --> 01:53:30.559
In times of overreach,

01:53:30.859 --> 01:53:33.421
our greatest defense is our community and

01:53:33.501 --> 01:53:35.323
our refusal to be intimidated into

01:53:35.363 --> 01:53:35.802
silence.

01:53:35.882 --> 01:53:37.625
And I've seen how powerful that this can

01:53:37.645 --> 01:53:38.966
be firsthand.

01:53:39.740 --> 01:53:42.523
The reality is that how ICE is operating

01:53:42.564 --> 01:53:44.385
within the borders of the US is

01:53:44.524 --> 01:53:45.426
unjustifiable.

01:53:45.786 --> 01:53:49.288
So we here recognize the significance of

01:53:49.328 --> 01:53:50.911
this unprecedented situation,

01:53:51.011 --> 01:53:53.073
and we stand alongside everyone who's

01:53:53.132 --> 01:53:55.935
protesting in support of the protection of

01:53:55.975 --> 01:53:57.856
our neighbors and for American rights,

01:53:57.877 --> 01:54:00.078
which is something that I think all

01:54:00.158 --> 01:54:01.921
Americans should support.

01:54:03.662 --> 01:54:04.682
Thank you all for tuning in.

01:54:05.122 --> 01:54:06.904
I hope you all have an excellent weekend.