WEBVTT

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Welcome back to This Week in Privacy,

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our weekly series where we discuss the

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latest updates with what we're working on

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within the Privacy Guides community and

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this week's top stories in the data

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privacy and cybersecurity space,

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including how lockdown mode thwarted

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forensics tools,

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Windows reconsidering their AI tools,

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and more.

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I am Nate,

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and joining me this week is Jordan.

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How are you doing, Jordan?

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I'm good, thanks.

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Happy to be here again,

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returning on the podcast.

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It's good to be back.

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Yeah, it's been a minute.

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Glad to have you back.

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It's exciting.

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Yes, a very exciting week this week.

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Indeed.

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Real quick, for those who don't know,

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Privacy Guides is a nonprofit which

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researches and shares privacy-related

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information and facilitates a community on

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our forum and matrix where people can ask

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questions and get advice about staying

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private online and preserving their

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digital rights.

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This week,

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we are jumping straight into the news and

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we're jumping straight in with a story

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about how the FBI could not get into

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a Washington Post reporter's phone because

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of lockdown mode.

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Um, so this story is admittedly not super,

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super detailed.

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Um, I mean,

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I guess it's about as detailed as one

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would expect, but, uh, let's see, where's,

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oh, my screen popped off the stage.

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Sorry about that.

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Y'all let me go ahead and add that

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back real quick.

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Uh, shoot.

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Hold on.

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I think I'm hitting the wrong button

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twice.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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There we go.

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Got it.

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Okay.

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So this story comes from four Oh four

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media.

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Let me scroll up to the top here.

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And, um,

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You know, the title, like I said,

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the title really says it all.

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So the FBI did have a warrant.

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That's a nice change of pace here.

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The FBI had a warrant and they went

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to a Washington Post reporter's home and

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seized a bunch of devices.

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And specifically,

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they say that when they plugged in the

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iPhone to their forensics tool to try and

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extract information, they couldn't.

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There's some interesting stuff here that

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we talked about behind the scenes this

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week and we were trying to figure out.

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They said there was a notification on the

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device's home screen that specifically

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said it's in lockdown mode.

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And those of us here at Privacy Guides

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that have iPhones,

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we were kind of playing around with it

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and turning on lockdown mode and plugging

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it in and trying to like,

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can we recreate this?

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Because I've never heard of that.

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And as far as I know,

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none of us were able to recreate that.

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So we think this may have been a...

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This may be or I think this may

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be like something specific to that tool.

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Like maybe when you plug this thing into

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the forensics tool, it pops up and like,

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oh, lockdown mode is enabled or something.

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But yeah.

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And then here's like a little screenshot

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for video viewers.

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Here's a little screenshot of the warrant

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that or the court record that says that

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they were unable to get it.

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So.

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I guess just to kind of round out

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this story,

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there is kind of some bad news,

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which is that they were still able to

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get the information because they had the

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reporter access her MacBook.

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And specifically...

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This is interesting.

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They told her to use Touch ID.

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They asked her for a Touch ID or

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a password, which, for the record,

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I have it on good authority from a

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lawyer.

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You don't ever have to hand over your

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password.

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That is a violation of, I believe,

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the First and Fifth Amendment here in the

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U.S.,

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But Touch ID, they can do.

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They can make you unlock the device or

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enter biometrics.

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You just never have to specifically hand

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over your password.

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She said that she does not use biometrics,

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but investigators told her to try anyways.

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And they say when she applied her index

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finger to the fingerprint reader,

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the laptop unlocked.

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And then they were able to, excuse me,

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it says they have not yet obtained a

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full image.

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But they did take photos and audio

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recordings of conversations stored in

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Signal.

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So a lot of lessons to learn here.

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And I do wonder,

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not to be a judge or anything,

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but that's really not going to go over

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well that she's like, oh,

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I don't use biometrics.

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They're like, we'll do it anyways.

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And then it worked.

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So, you know,

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is that going to be like,

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who's that New York mayor that was like,

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oh, I lost my phone.

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And it's like, yeah, sure you did, buddy.

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Anyways.

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So this is a man.

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There's so many things to take away from

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this story.

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First of all, I guess to address the

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I don't want to say elephant in the

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room, but to address the headline,

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these stories are useful because iPhone is

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closed source, right?

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And I think it's really cool to get

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this kind of insight and confirmation that

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things like lockdown mode do work and they

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do provide that benefit that we're

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trusting them to provide.

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And

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I know that in a perfect world we

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would use something open source,

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but I don't know.

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The point I'm getting at is regardless,

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it's still good to know that these things

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work,

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and it's good to have this kind of

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third-party confirmation,

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even if it's kind of unfortunate that it

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has to come that way.

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And the other thing that really jumped out

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at me is,

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like I said at the end there,

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they were still able to access Signal

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because her device was unlocked.

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And I think that's a really important

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thing to talk about because a lot of

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the time we see this –

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abused in the news or twisted in the

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news where they're like, oh, my God,

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they access this person's signal.

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And it's like, well, yeah,

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if the device is unlocked,

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of course they did.

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So these tools,

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all tools have limitations, right?

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There is no perfect tool out there.

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But it's important that we take it.

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First of all,

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it's important that we know that.

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So if you send anything, you know,

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I've said in the past on other recordings

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that anything you put in a digital format,

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you should be prepared for the possibility

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that

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It may end up in a data breach

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or something like that.

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So keep that in mind.

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But also,

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it's important to enable things like

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disappearing messages to keep in mind that

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there's only so much we can do from

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the endpoint itself.

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So I think those were kind of my

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takeaways from this story.

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Jordan,

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did you have an opportunity to read this

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story?

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And did you have any thoughts on it?

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Yes, definitely.

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Uh, it's good coverage there from, uh,

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from you just there.

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But I think that, uh,

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one thing that was quite interesting about

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this story is, um, the, uh,

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four or four media article kind of goes

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into, uh, some,

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some more detail about the reason why,

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like,

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I think we should talk a little bit

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about why lockdown mode is kind of able

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to thought these sort of, uh,

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police forensic tools, um,

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And one of the most important things that

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the lockdown mode actually does is it

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disables the device connections.

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So if you connect your iPhone or iPad

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to a computer,

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the device needs to be unlocked.

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So without lockdown mode enabled,

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sometimes it can actually automatically

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connect to a computer without explicit

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approval.

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So...

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that can allow mobile forensic tools like

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GreyKey and Cellebrite,

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which is like the common police forensic

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tools to basically be able to extract

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information from the device.

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And we've seen this as well with Graphene

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OS,

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they have a similar setting in the

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settings where you can control the USB

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connection and allow, you know,

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change the options that are required if

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you connect the device to another

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computer, right?

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And as you can see on the screen,

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Nate's brought this up here.

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It's the Apple support page about like the

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specifics of lockdown mode.

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And another thing that these forensic

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tools do is they often utilize

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vulnerabilities in, you know,

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software and hardware and with lockdown

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mode enabled it kind of protects you in

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on both fronts right because it stops the

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device connections which can sometimes be

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uh exploited with vulnerabilities and also

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it disables a lot of these you know

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quality of life features but ones that are

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often used in exploits and vulnerabilities

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such as like you know complex web browsing

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uh

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um like tools are disabled in this case

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it says certain complex web technologies

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are blocked which might cause some

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websites to load more slowly or operate uh

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correctly so you know as well as you

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know some it disables some of the apple

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services as well so i think this is

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quite an interesting story to see that uh

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lockdown mode actually did provide quite a

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benefit to someone,

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especially in like quite a vulnerable

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position.

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It's good to always see that this tool

00:09:06.936 --> 00:09:08.616
that Apple has put out is actually helping

00:09:08.677 --> 00:09:09.677
journalists in the field.

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But it is another thing that's kind of

00:09:12.659 --> 00:09:14.240
a bit of an unfortunate thing with this

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case that

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Nate kind of talked about was that they

00:09:18.024 --> 00:09:20.306
were kind of able to bypass the entire

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process because she had her MacBook with a

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Touch ID.

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And I think it'd be really good if

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you could, Nate,

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if you could elaborate a little bit.

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You said there was laws around the First

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and Fifth Amendment.

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Could you maybe go into what exactly that

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means and why Touch ID can kind of

00:09:41.243 --> 00:09:41.984
bypass that?

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Real quick.

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Thank you for mentioning graphene because

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officially privacy guides are our top

00:09:51.491 --> 00:09:53.494
recommendation for a phone will always be

00:09:53.514 --> 00:09:54.956
a graphene phone because it really does

00:09:54.995 --> 00:09:57.398
have the best privacy, the best security.

00:09:58.278 --> 00:09:59.799
But there's lots of reasons people may

00:09:59.880 --> 00:10:00.701
want to use an iPhone.

00:10:00.740 --> 00:10:02.702
Like there are some countries where pixels

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are not available and things like that.

00:10:04.664 --> 00:10:05.225
But yeah,

00:10:05.245 --> 00:10:07.408
graphene has some very granular controls

00:10:07.548 --> 00:10:08.568
over the USB port.

00:10:08.609 --> 00:10:10.850
uh, port, but yeah, the,

00:10:10.890 --> 00:10:12.831
so the first and fifth amendment here in

00:10:12.851 --> 00:10:14.273
the U S, um, the first,

00:10:14.293 --> 00:10:16.095
the first ten, I believe it is.

00:10:16.154 --> 00:10:17.196
It's been a while since I was in

00:10:17.216 --> 00:10:17.475
school.

00:10:18.155 --> 00:10:18.236
Um,

00:10:18.256 --> 00:10:20.357
the first ten amendments in the U S

00:10:20.378 --> 00:10:21.599
constitution are called the bill of

00:10:21.639 --> 00:10:21.958
rights.

00:10:22.080 --> 00:10:22.559
And they were,

00:10:23.179 --> 00:10:25.081
I think the first ten that like existed

00:10:25.241 --> 00:10:26.082
when the country,

00:10:26.123 --> 00:10:27.043
when the U S was founded.

00:10:27.724 --> 00:10:28.303
And, uh,

00:10:29.225 --> 00:10:32.128
The first specifically is – I mean a

00:10:32.148 --> 00:10:33.428
lot of them have multiple parts,

00:10:33.448 --> 00:10:35.591
but the first mostly pertains to freedom

00:10:35.630 --> 00:10:36.032
of speech.

00:10:36.312 --> 00:10:38.594
The government is not allowed to infringe

00:10:38.614 --> 00:10:40.235
on your freedom of speech or your freedom

00:10:40.275 --> 00:10:41.015
of expression,

00:10:41.736 --> 00:10:43.458
your freedom to lobby the government for

00:10:43.519 --> 00:10:44.559
complaints, things like that.

00:10:45.059 --> 00:10:46.701
And then the Fifth Amendment is the one

00:10:46.721 --> 00:10:48.142
that protects against self-incrimination.

00:10:48.282 --> 00:10:49.962
So for example,

00:10:50.383 --> 00:10:51.604
if any of you have ever watched a

00:10:51.663 --> 00:10:53.004
cop show that's set here in the US,

00:10:53.024 --> 00:10:54.546
which I'm sure is most of them,

00:10:54.566 --> 00:10:56.927
the Fifth Amendment is the one that when

00:10:56.947 --> 00:10:57.947
people say, I plead the Fifth,

00:10:57.988 --> 00:10:58.668
I'm not going to talk.

00:10:59.609 --> 00:10:59.928
What's the word?

00:10:59.989 --> 00:11:01.690
I invoke my right against

00:11:01.710 --> 00:11:02.711
self-incrimination, whatever.

00:11:02.770 --> 00:11:03.951
There's a million ways to put it.

00:11:04.471 --> 00:11:04.672
But

00:11:06.674 --> 00:11:08.836
basically the reason that this passwords

00:11:08.856 --> 00:11:10.857
and stuff like that fall under this is

00:11:10.918 --> 00:11:13.120
because first of all,

00:11:13.139 --> 00:11:14.160
they can't force you to give up your

00:11:14.181 --> 00:11:16.724
password because that one,

00:11:17.264 --> 00:11:18.404
and that's the one I'm not sure of,

00:11:18.445 --> 00:11:19.566
but I feel like I read this somewhere

00:11:20.287 --> 00:11:21.648
that would fall under free speech.

00:11:21.908 --> 00:11:23.369
Like they're kind of forcing you what to

00:11:23.408 --> 00:11:23.649
say,

00:11:24.289 --> 00:11:26.011
but it definitely falls under the fifth

00:11:26.052 --> 00:11:28.193
amendment because you have a right,

00:11:28.234 --> 00:11:29.634
whether you're guilty or innocent,

00:11:30.095 --> 00:11:31.557
you have a right to not give,

00:11:32.037 --> 00:11:33.677
incriminate yourself um that's kind of the

00:11:33.697 --> 00:11:36.519
way the u.s justice system the u.s justice

00:11:36.678 --> 00:11:39.080
system is supposed to work is it's

00:11:39.100 --> 00:11:41.640
supposed to be that and i don't want

00:11:41.660 --> 00:11:42.880
to get too far off topic but on

00:11:42.941 --> 00:11:44.302
paper the way it's supposed to work is

00:11:44.341 --> 00:11:46.342
that the defense is supposed to prove that

00:11:46.363 --> 00:11:48.624
you are not guilty no matter what and

00:11:48.744 --> 00:11:50.365
the prosecution is supposed to find the

00:11:50.404 --> 00:11:52.164
truth whether that's you're guilty or

00:11:52.205 --> 00:11:55.166
you're not um which is a subtle but

00:11:55.187 --> 00:11:57.167
distinct thing anyways so yeah there's

00:11:57.206 --> 00:11:58.368
this protection against

00:11:59.594 --> 00:12:01.075
Admitting and confessing if you don't want

00:12:01.115 --> 00:12:01.215
to.

00:12:01.254 --> 00:12:02.394
I mean, obviously, if you want to confess,

00:12:02.414 --> 00:12:02.995
you can confess.

00:12:03.034 --> 00:12:03.775
Nobody's going to stop you.

00:12:03.855 --> 00:12:05.556
But yeah,

00:12:05.615 --> 00:12:07.576
so it falls under that because giving up

00:12:07.596 --> 00:12:09.037
your passwords could incriminate you.

00:12:09.398 --> 00:12:10.278
And therefore,

00:12:10.337 --> 00:12:11.658
you are not required to do it.

00:12:12.219 --> 00:12:14.099
But like you said, there's workarounds.

00:12:15.320 --> 00:12:16.019
Biometrics...

00:12:18.113 --> 00:12:20.676
I want to say is a gray area.

00:12:20.775 --> 00:12:23.499
I could be wrong about that because, well,

00:12:23.558 --> 00:12:23.879
real quick,

00:12:23.918 --> 00:12:25.201
let me say I know for sure that

00:12:25.240 --> 00:12:27.102
you can be ordered to unlock a device,

00:12:27.743 --> 00:12:29.004
whether that's putting in the password and

00:12:29.024 --> 00:12:29.846
then handing it over,

00:12:30.405 --> 00:12:31.687
scanning your fingerprint, whatever.

00:12:31.988 --> 00:12:33.610
That is something the court can force you

00:12:33.629 --> 00:12:33.809
to do.

00:12:36.302 --> 00:12:36.923
Biometrics,

00:12:37.083 --> 00:12:38.403
I've heard conflicting reports,

00:12:38.544 --> 00:12:39.966
and a lot of these – we talked

00:12:39.985 --> 00:12:41.606
about this last year with the person who

00:12:41.626 --> 00:12:42.967
was charged for wiping their phone,

00:12:44.849 --> 00:12:46.169
which was also a four-oh-four story.

00:12:47.831 --> 00:12:49.652
Phones and biometrics and things are

00:12:49.711 --> 00:12:51.332
really in a gray area right now legally

00:12:51.352 --> 00:12:54.595
in the US because some courts have ruled

00:12:54.774 --> 00:12:56.697
that you need a warrant to search phones,

00:12:56.716 --> 00:12:57.817
and other courts have ruled, no,

00:12:57.836 --> 00:12:58.298
you don't.

00:12:58.498 --> 00:13:01.220
And they're kind of at odds,

00:13:01.259 --> 00:13:02.841
and we're kind of waiting for the Supreme

00:13:02.880 --> 00:13:04.961
Court to weigh in and settle the matter

00:13:05.062 --> 00:13:05.623
once and for all.

00:13:06.383 --> 00:13:08.163
And yeah,

00:13:08.224 --> 00:13:09.565
biometrics kind of fall under that

00:13:09.625 --> 00:13:13.727
category of even if you do need a

00:13:13.748 --> 00:13:14.448
warrant or whatever,

00:13:14.528 --> 00:13:15.850
it would still be something that they can

00:13:15.870 --> 00:13:17.551
force you to unlock the device because it

00:13:17.571 --> 00:13:19.893
doesn't really fall under those those same

00:13:19.932 --> 00:13:21.153
purviews of like against

00:13:21.173 --> 00:13:22.274
self-incrimination and stuff.

00:13:22.315 --> 00:13:22.455
It's.

00:13:23.222 --> 00:13:24.123
Yeah,

00:13:25.364 --> 00:13:26.423
it's a fun gray area right now in

00:13:26.443 --> 00:13:26.563
the US.

00:13:26.583 --> 00:13:27.144
Right, yeah.

00:13:30.306 --> 00:13:32.506
It is kind of, it's definitely tricky,

00:13:32.547 --> 00:13:35.128
especially for me as someone who's outside

00:13:35.168 --> 00:13:37.109
the US seeing what's going on.

00:13:38.149 --> 00:13:40.690
It is kind of hard to follow some

00:13:40.730 --> 00:13:41.711
discussions around it.

00:13:42.130 --> 00:13:43.572
So it's good that you kind of explained

00:13:44.991 --> 00:13:45.753
the situation.

00:13:47.014 --> 00:13:48.575
But I think another important thing about

00:13:48.615 --> 00:13:50.897
this story that you kind of touched on

00:13:50.917 --> 00:13:52.317
a little bit when you were doing the

00:13:52.378 --> 00:13:55.519
initial coverage here was that when they

00:13:55.539 --> 00:13:57.020
were able to unlock the device,

00:13:57.400 --> 00:13:58.701
the MacBook in this case,

00:13:59.562 --> 00:14:03.164
there was actually a signal application on

00:14:03.525 --> 00:14:05.606
the MacBook and they were able to take

00:14:05.706 --> 00:14:08.448
evidence from that signal application on

00:14:08.489 --> 00:14:09.070
that MacBook.

00:14:09.789 --> 00:14:11.711
And I think that's like a really important

00:14:11.751 --> 00:14:14.553
thing that we need to discuss because I

00:14:14.595 --> 00:14:17.496
think people need to be careful about

00:14:18.298 --> 00:14:21.321
using Signal desktop applications because

00:14:21.400 --> 00:14:23.261
of this instance, right?

00:14:24.683 --> 00:14:27.746
Desktop computers have less security

00:14:28.167 --> 00:14:31.149
protections than a mobile device.

00:14:31.309 --> 00:14:33.192
And in this case, it's...

00:14:34.467 --> 00:14:35.629
less of a security issue,

00:14:35.688 --> 00:14:37.169
more of just like an unfortunate

00:14:37.210 --> 00:14:40.192
circumstance where someone had biometrics

00:14:40.231 --> 00:14:42.933
enabled, but it does kind of show that,

00:14:43.114 --> 00:14:43.855
you know,

00:14:43.875 --> 00:14:46.076
your security is only as secure as your

00:14:46.115 --> 00:14:47.476
weakest link, right?

00:14:47.537 --> 00:14:49.077
As soon as you have one link that

00:14:49.138 --> 00:14:52.341
breaks your entire signal history is going

00:14:52.360 --> 00:14:56.023
to be available to whoever's trying to

00:14:56.823 --> 00:14:57.823
attack the device.

00:14:58.164 --> 00:15:00.206
So I thought that was quite an interesting

00:15:00.245 --> 00:15:01.547
part of the story actually.

00:15:03.686 --> 00:15:04.486
Yeah, definitely.

00:15:05.647 --> 00:15:08.909
It's... Yeah, and it's...

00:15:09.490 --> 00:15:10.791
You're definitely a hundred percent right.

00:15:10.811 --> 00:15:11.731
Like I heard...

00:15:13.543 --> 00:15:14.504
I forget who it was,

00:15:14.563 --> 00:15:15.965
but somebody on Firewall's Don't Stop

00:15:16.004 --> 00:15:17.245
Dragons was talking about...

00:15:18.167 --> 00:15:19.467
Phones are almost like,

00:15:19.488 --> 00:15:20.589
from a security perspective,

00:15:20.889 --> 00:15:22.490
it's almost like we took all the lessons

00:15:22.509 --> 00:15:23.951
that we learned from computers and

00:15:24.011 --> 00:15:25.211
integrated them into smartphones.

00:15:25.633 --> 00:15:26.913
So smartphones are, for example,

00:15:27.835 --> 00:15:29.895
smartphones rarely have their updates mess

00:15:29.956 --> 00:15:30.096
up.

00:15:30.115 --> 00:15:32.197
I'm going to take a fun little pot

00:15:32.217 --> 00:15:32.938
shot at Windows here.

00:15:33.239 --> 00:15:34.879
When I bought my first Windows eight

00:15:34.919 --> 00:15:35.340
computer...

00:15:36.201 --> 00:15:37.721
brand new fresh out of the box i

00:15:37.783 --> 00:15:39.264
opened it i booted it up and it

00:15:39.283 --> 00:15:41.405
failed to install and had to reboot and

00:15:41.566 --> 00:15:42.927
it got it on the second try but

00:15:43.287 --> 00:15:45.568
uh i've never seen anything like that

00:15:45.609 --> 00:15:47.451
happen with a phone right like phones

00:15:47.551 --> 00:15:49.993
almost never don't update and they have

00:15:50.033 --> 00:15:53.054
significantly better security all around

00:15:53.075 --> 00:15:55.256
um you know they they have better

00:15:55.297 --> 00:15:56.958
sandboxing and all kinds of stuff i'm not

00:15:57.158 --> 00:15:58.740
really an expert on phones but i know

00:15:58.759 --> 00:16:02.023
they're significantly more secure but even

00:16:02.082 --> 00:16:03.264
so yeah i think i think the

00:16:05.743 --> 00:16:06.725
I think it just kind of goes back

00:16:06.764 --> 00:16:09.730
to not just the security,

00:16:09.750 --> 00:16:10.951
because there's so many aspects of it.

00:16:11.111 --> 00:16:12.114
That certainly is a good point,

00:16:12.173 --> 00:16:15.740
that desktop devices are generally less

00:16:15.759 --> 00:16:16.140
secure,

00:16:16.160 --> 00:16:18.625
but also just being mindful of

00:16:19.625 --> 00:16:20.404
you know, backups, right?

00:16:20.445 --> 00:16:21.605
Like backups are a good thing to have,

00:16:21.645 --> 00:16:22.905
especially in the privacy community.

00:16:22.986 --> 00:16:24.486
We're really big fans of not using the

00:16:24.506 --> 00:16:25.528
cloud, generally speaking.

00:16:25.988 --> 00:16:27.107
And it's like, okay, that's great.

00:16:27.589 --> 00:16:29.328
But what happens if, you know,

00:16:29.408 --> 00:16:31.389
there's a house fire or you're, you know,

00:16:31.409 --> 00:16:32.971
there's a flood or anything.

00:16:33.010 --> 00:16:33.951
What happens if you get robbed?

00:16:33.990 --> 00:16:34.150
You know,

00:16:34.211 --> 00:16:36.432
especially like I need to buy a new

00:16:36.511 --> 00:16:36.572
one.

00:16:36.972 --> 00:16:38.974
I used to have a little external portable

00:16:39.014 --> 00:16:40.714
hard drive that was my backup drive.

00:16:41.134 --> 00:16:42.394
And the first thing I did was encrypt

00:16:42.434 --> 00:16:43.416
it because I knew I'm like,

00:16:43.436 --> 00:16:44.336
if somebody breaks in,

00:16:44.855 --> 00:16:46.136
they can grab that right off the desk

00:16:46.197 --> 00:16:46.437
and go.

00:16:46.937 --> 00:16:49.039
Like there's no friction to stealing that

00:16:49.179 --> 00:16:49.519
at all.

00:16:49.701 --> 00:16:53.466
So yeah, just keeping in mind every,

00:16:54.407 --> 00:16:55.548
again, all the end points.

00:16:55.648 --> 00:16:56.789
And we talk about that,

00:16:57.270 --> 00:16:58.231
I think in the privacy community,

00:16:58.272 --> 00:16:59.673
we think about that a lot in terms

00:16:59.774 --> 00:16:59.874
of,

00:17:01.753 --> 00:17:02.634
the far end,

00:17:03.394 --> 00:17:04.335
like I see a lot of people who

00:17:04.355 --> 00:17:05.836
criticize encrypted email because they're

00:17:05.855 --> 00:17:06.195
like, oh,

00:17:06.256 --> 00:17:07.737
most people don't use encrypted email.

00:17:08.156 --> 00:17:09.238
So, you know,

00:17:09.317 --> 00:17:10.479
it might be encrypted while it's in your

00:17:10.538 --> 00:17:10.898
inbox,

00:17:10.919 --> 00:17:12.921
but it's still unencrypted in their inbox.

00:17:13.060 --> 00:17:15.342
And which is a valid but different

00:17:15.382 --> 00:17:15.662
argument.

00:17:15.702 --> 00:17:16.363
But the point is, like,

00:17:16.682 --> 00:17:18.324
we don't always think about it in the

00:17:18.364 --> 00:17:20.085
context of, OK,

00:17:20.145 --> 00:17:21.826
but now there's a second copy of your

00:17:21.866 --> 00:17:24.588
data on your end of things sitting on

00:17:24.628 --> 00:17:26.170
that external hard drive on the desk or

00:17:26.190 --> 00:17:28.250
sitting on that computer desk.

00:17:28.411 --> 00:17:28.771
you know,

00:17:28.832 --> 00:17:30.073
synced up through Signal or whatever

00:17:30.093 --> 00:17:30.834
that's less secure.

00:17:30.933 --> 00:17:31.273
Or, you know,

00:17:31.294 --> 00:17:32.516
some people run a NAS and they use,

00:17:32.556 --> 00:17:32.796
what is it,

00:17:32.816 --> 00:17:34.518
like SyncThing to sync their data.

00:17:34.577 --> 00:17:35.199
And it's like, okay,

00:17:35.278 --> 00:17:37.361
now you've got this constantly running,

00:17:37.401 --> 00:17:38.843
twenty-four-seven device sitting in the

00:17:38.863 --> 00:17:41.005
corner that's syncing all your calendar,

00:17:41.025 --> 00:17:42.125
your contacts, your data.

00:17:42.246 --> 00:17:44.588
So, yeah, it's really important to,

00:17:44.648 --> 00:17:45.950
when you do that threat modeling and you

00:17:45.971 --> 00:17:46.830
start building your

00:17:48.378 --> 00:17:49.599
your security posture,

00:17:49.619 --> 00:17:50.240
I guess we'll call it.

00:17:50.579 --> 00:17:51.820
It's important to have that moment where

00:17:51.840 --> 00:17:54.162
you stop and think about every step of

00:17:54.182 --> 00:17:54.561
the chain.

00:17:54.803 --> 00:17:55.042
You know,

00:17:55.143 --> 00:17:56.983
what happens if this gets compromised?

00:17:57.324 --> 00:17:59.424
If this threat happens, break-in, flood,

00:18:00.025 --> 00:18:01.806
you know, it's, yeah.

00:18:01.885 --> 00:18:02.067
I mean,

00:18:02.267 --> 00:18:04.127
it's really important to think about that

00:18:04.167 --> 00:18:05.567
whole picture and not just think like,

00:18:05.647 --> 00:18:06.769
okay, I'm using Signal, I'm good.

00:18:09.711 --> 00:18:11.171
Yeah, definitely.

00:18:11.271 --> 00:18:13.373
Your security needs to be like...

00:18:14.332 --> 00:18:15.492
very,

00:18:15.532 --> 00:18:17.835
your plan needs to be very clear and

00:18:18.316 --> 00:18:19.017
multi-layered.

00:18:19.096 --> 00:18:20.897
But I think another thing that's also kind

00:18:20.938 --> 00:18:24.682
of important in this story is the person

00:18:24.721 --> 00:18:26.384
that had the iPhone seized,

00:18:26.443 --> 00:18:28.826
it was actually only an iPhone XIII,

00:18:29.346 --> 00:18:30.607
which isn't, you know,

00:18:30.728 --> 00:18:32.450
one of the latest generations of iPhones

00:18:32.490 --> 00:18:34.270
that has more of those hardware security

00:18:34.310 --> 00:18:35.893
features like the iPhone XII,

00:18:35.932 --> 00:18:36.333
which has

00:18:37.153 --> 00:18:41.479
mte memory tagging enforcement so it's

00:18:41.519 --> 00:18:43.622
interesting that even an iphone with

00:18:43.781 --> 00:18:46.744
lockdown mode enabled was able to block

00:18:47.385 --> 00:18:50.568
these sort of forensic tools um which i

00:18:50.609 --> 00:18:52.711
think kind of shows the power of this

00:18:52.852 --> 00:18:54.993
of lockdown mode itself actually um

00:18:56.532 --> 00:18:59.453
because you would expect an older device

00:18:59.493 --> 00:19:02.295
is probably more likely to be exploited

00:19:02.315 --> 00:19:04.076
because of its age, right?

00:19:04.115 --> 00:19:07.076
Through hardware vulnerabilities and stuff

00:19:07.096 --> 00:19:07.518
like that.

00:19:07.557 --> 00:19:09.478
And because it doesn't have that updated

00:19:10.038 --> 00:19:12.380
hardware, it's kind of surprising.

00:19:12.859 --> 00:19:14.299
So that was another thing that was quite

00:19:14.339 --> 00:19:15.861
surprising to me in this story.

00:19:18.549 --> 00:19:19.730
Yeah, I think I missed that part.

00:19:19.750 --> 00:19:21.132
Thank you for bringing that up.

00:19:21.231 --> 00:19:23.053
I did see people mention that.

00:19:23.153 --> 00:19:23.794
Now that you mentioned it,

00:19:23.834 --> 00:19:26.214
I saw people talking about an iPhone XIII

00:19:26.234 --> 00:19:28.036
with lockdown mode, but for some reason,

00:19:28.056 --> 00:19:32.378
my brain didn't make the connection.

00:19:34.500 --> 00:19:34.861
Obviously,

00:19:35.161 --> 00:19:36.682
we're always going to encourage people to

00:19:36.701 --> 00:19:38.042
do the best they can and use the

00:19:38.063 --> 00:19:39.443
latest devices and the best security

00:19:39.483 --> 00:19:39.804
measures,

00:19:39.844 --> 00:19:44.287
but I think that also I would like

00:19:44.326 --> 00:19:45.887
to use that as an opportunity to remind

00:19:45.928 --> 00:19:46.509
people that

00:19:47.539 --> 00:19:48.780
there's a lot of factors that go into

00:19:48.820 --> 00:19:49.162
security.

00:19:49.221 --> 00:19:50.383
Cause I know there's some people that

00:19:50.603 --> 00:19:53.326
maybe can't afford like a brand new device

00:19:53.526 --> 00:19:54.686
or, uh, you know,

00:19:54.707 --> 00:19:55.268
for a lot of reasons,

00:19:55.288 --> 00:19:56.148
like environmentalism,

00:19:56.169 --> 00:19:56.989
like I don't want to throw out this

00:19:57.028 --> 00:19:58.069
perfectly good iPhone.

00:19:59.231 --> 00:19:59.271
Um,

00:19:59.311 --> 00:20:00.353
I don't know if the iPhone is still

00:20:00.373 --> 00:20:01.614
getting updates, but I assume so if,

00:20:01.834 --> 00:20:03.976
if lockdown would work, but, uh, you know,

00:20:04.016 --> 00:20:04.576
my point being like,

00:20:04.696 --> 00:20:05.278
I'm one of those people,

00:20:05.317 --> 00:20:06.659
like I have a pixel six a,

00:20:06.679 --> 00:20:08.560
and I plan on using it probably until

00:20:08.580 --> 00:20:09.961
next year when it stops getting updates.

00:20:10.163 --> 00:20:11.063
And you know, it's,

00:20:11.884 --> 00:20:12.565
when that happens,

00:20:12.625 --> 00:20:13.746
I want to get the latest pixel so

00:20:13.806 --> 00:20:14.967
I can get all these nice hardware

00:20:15.007 --> 00:20:15.407
features.

00:20:15.448 --> 00:20:17.509
But I think that's just what I'm getting

00:20:17.549 --> 00:20:17.930
at is that's,

00:20:18.030 --> 00:20:19.531
that's part of threat modeling as well is

00:20:19.551 --> 00:20:20.853
like, will this meet my needs?

00:20:20.932 --> 00:20:23.296
Will it is, is this,

00:20:23.316 --> 00:20:24.897
am I doing enough to protect myself?

00:20:25.038 --> 00:20:27.319
And I think sometimes we can feel like

00:20:27.400 --> 00:20:29.182
we always have to do more because privacy,

00:20:29.843 --> 00:20:31.064
there's always more to do in privacy.

00:20:31.124 --> 00:20:33.425
There's, there's always new, new tools,

00:20:33.465 --> 00:20:35.107
new ways to improve your privacy and,

00:20:35.248 --> 00:20:36.609
unfortunately, new threats popping up.

00:20:37.089 --> 00:20:37.851
But you know, that's,

00:20:39.232 --> 00:20:40.513
that's one of the reasons that we do

00:20:41.035 --> 00:20:44.259
threat modeling is to try and make sure

00:20:44.358 --> 00:20:45.599
that we are hitting those goals,

00:20:45.640 --> 00:20:46.781
we are doing what we need to to

00:20:46.821 --> 00:20:47.582
protect our data.

00:20:47.762 --> 00:20:47.863
And

00:20:49.348 --> 00:20:49.749
Yeah,

00:20:49.848 --> 00:20:51.109
I guess what I'm getting at is as

00:20:51.150 --> 00:20:53.290
long as you're fulfilling your threat

00:20:53.330 --> 00:20:53.570
model,

00:20:53.651 --> 00:20:55.852
it's okay to give yourself some grace if

00:20:55.872 --> 00:20:57.712
you're not going as hardcore as you would

00:20:57.752 --> 00:20:58.153
like to.

00:20:58.814 --> 00:21:00.154
Keep going, keep trying to get there,

00:21:00.255 --> 00:21:01.715
but as long as you are meeting your

00:21:01.736 --> 00:21:02.215
threat model.

00:21:02.816 --> 00:21:04.737
And that doesn't necessarily mean you have

00:21:04.777 --> 00:21:05.978
to run out and buy the latest thing

00:21:05.998 --> 00:21:07.157
because now it's got this new hardware

00:21:07.178 --> 00:21:10.019
feature, but try to if you can.

00:21:10.180 --> 00:21:11.280
Again, I want to reiterate that,

00:21:11.520 --> 00:21:13.761
but this is why threat modeling works.

00:21:14.545 --> 00:21:15.586
Exactly, yeah.

00:21:15.665 --> 00:21:17.366
And on the topic of protecting your data,

00:21:17.788 --> 00:21:19.348
let's head into this new story here.

00:21:19.368 --> 00:21:22.371
And this is Notepad++ update feature

00:21:22.471 --> 00:21:24.732
hijacked by Chinese state hackers for

00:21:24.792 --> 00:21:25.253
months.

00:21:25.913 --> 00:21:28.036
So Chinese state-sponsored threat actors

00:21:28.076 --> 00:21:29.896
were likely behind the hijacking of

00:21:29.957 --> 00:21:33.400
Notepad++ update traffic last year that

00:21:33.519 --> 00:21:35.342
lasted for almost half a year.

00:21:35.882 --> 00:21:37.482
The developer states in an official

00:21:37.544 --> 00:21:38.523
announcement today.

00:21:39.005 --> 00:21:40.486
So that's quoting from the bleeping

00:21:40.526 --> 00:21:41.567
computer article here.

00:21:43.828 --> 00:21:45.430
A statement from the hosting provider for

00:21:45.470 --> 00:21:47.330
the update feature explains that the logs

00:21:47.391 --> 00:21:49.912
indicate that the hacker compromised the

00:21:49.971 --> 00:21:53.834
server with Notepad++ update application.

00:21:54.595 --> 00:21:56.996
External security experts helping with the

00:21:57.016 --> 00:21:58.636
investigation found that the attack

00:21:58.676 --> 00:22:00.637
started in June of twenty twenty five.

00:22:01.238 --> 00:22:03.378
So I guess for anyone who's not on

00:22:03.398 --> 00:22:03.579
the

00:22:04.599 --> 00:22:06.082
who doesn't use Windows,

00:22:07.001 --> 00:22:11.207
Notepad++ is basically an advanced version

00:22:11.386 --> 00:22:13.729
of Notepad that has a lot of the

00:22:13.749 --> 00:22:15.210
features that you would expect in,

00:22:15.510 --> 00:22:16.191
you know,

00:22:16.291 --> 00:22:18.673
advanced note-taking applications like

00:22:18.713 --> 00:22:20.214
syntax highlighting and such,

00:22:20.275 --> 00:22:23.538
so it definitely builds upon the Notepad

00:22:25.542 --> 00:22:27.564
like piece of software that's available in

00:22:27.604 --> 00:22:28.064
windows.

00:22:28.565 --> 00:22:30.766
It's basically like a fully featured

00:22:31.405 --> 00:22:32.426
alternative to that.

00:22:32.866 --> 00:22:35.528
And it's actually extremely popular.

00:22:35.587 --> 00:22:37.749
So that's why it's extremely concerning

00:22:37.788 --> 00:22:39.369
that the update feature has been hijacked

00:22:39.390 --> 00:22:40.590
by Chinese state hackers.

00:22:43.317 --> 00:22:45.116
And just quoting from the article again

00:22:45.156 --> 00:22:45.317
here,

00:22:45.356 --> 00:22:47.178
the attackers specifically targeted

00:22:47.238 --> 00:22:49.719
notepad++ domains with the goal of

00:22:49.798 --> 00:22:51.299
exploiting insufficient update

00:22:51.339 --> 00:22:53.401
verification controls that existed in

00:22:53.540 --> 00:22:54.862
older versions of notepad++.

00:22:57.441 --> 00:22:58.980
So basically in December,

00:22:59.060 --> 00:23:01.301
Notepad++ released version eight point

00:23:01.382 --> 00:23:02.162
eight point nine,

00:23:02.582 --> 00:23:04.682
which addressed a security weakness in its

00:23:04.741 --> 00:23:08.222
Win GUP update tool after multiple

00:23:08.282 --> 00:23:10.363
researchers reported the updater would

00:23:10.423 --> 00:23:12.384
receive malicious packages instead of

00:23:12.443 --> 00:23:13.324
legitimate ones.

00:23:14.364 --> 00:23:17.344
And there was a great post on Mastodon

00:23:17.364 --> 00:23:20.025
that I saw by security researcher Kevin

00:23:20.065 --> 00:23:20.505
Beaumont,

00:23:21.384 --> 00:23:23.144
where he warned that at least three

00:23:23.204 --> 00:23:25.605
organizations were affected by these

00:23:25.746 --> 00:23:26.806
update hijacks.

00:23:27.744 --> 00:23:29.326
which were followed by hands-on

00:23:29.385 --> 00:23:33.188
reconnaissance activity on the network.

00:23:33.248 --> 00:23:34.348
So yeah,

00:23:34.368 --> 00:23:36.170
this is kind of a pretty concerning story,

00:23:36.230 --> 00:23:38.711
especially because it's such a popular

00:23:38.750 --> 00:23:39.550
piece of software.

00:23:39.791 --> 00:23:41.692
Like a lot of people on windows that

00:23:41.712 --> 00:23:43.874
are editing text files will be using this

00:23:43.913 --> 00:23:44.334
software.

00:23:45.714 --> 00:23:47.316
So it is kind of concerning,

00:23:47.355 --> 00:23:48.536
but just handing it off to you here,

00:23:48.556 --> 00:23:49.737
Nate, what are your thoughts so far?

00:23:52.849 --> 00:23:55.510
Yeah, I will admit,

00:23:55.651 --> 00:23:57.510
I use Notepad++ on Windows.

00:23:57.790 --> 00:23:59.632
So that was a fun headline to read.

00:24:00.971 --> 00:24:03.452
I think I say this partially to make

00:24:03.492 --> 00:24:04.133
myself feel better.

00:24:04.232 --> 00:24:05.513
One thing to note in the article is

00:24:05.554 --> 00:24:07.794
it does mention that this attack was very

00:24:07.875 --> 00:24:12.215
targeted in that the attackers very likely

00:24:12.336 --> 00:24:14.957
only targeted specific users of Notepad++.

00:24:16.376 --> 00:24:19.439
so probably hopefully not me but they

00:24:19.459 --> 00:24:21.019
could have just as easily targeted me

00:24:21.098 --> 00:24:22.839
right um and actually real quick on that

00:24:22.880 --> 00:24:25.040
note i think here at the bottom of

00:24:25.060 --> 00:24:28.182
this article yeah um there's some links

00:24:28.202 --> 00:24:29.563
they talk about this group called rapid

00:24:29.603 --> 00:24:31.785
seven that did research on this and they

00:24:31.825 --> 00:24:33.785
released an analysis a technical analysis

00:24:33.805 --> 00:24:36.106
of the malware and they do include um

00:24:37.126 --> 00:24:38.468
how to check and see if you were

00:24:38.528 --> 00:24:40.449
compromised i i believe they concluded a

00:24:41.880 --> 00:24:42.180
What is it?

00:24:42.681 --> 00:24:44.902
Caches of specific files, basically,

00:24:44.922 --> 00:24:46.762
that you can check and see if you

00:24:46.803 --> 00:24:48.523
have the right file or a compromised file.

00:24:49.064 --> 00:24:51.305
So if you are worried that you may

00:24:51.325 --> 00:24:52.965
be impacted by this, first of all,

00:24:53.026 --> 00:24:54.166
go ahead and update to the latest one

00:24:54.207 --> 00:24:55.847
because hopefully that should fix it and

00:24:55.867 --> 00:24:56.667
close off access.

00:24:56.708 --> 00:24:58.769
But also you can double check that to

00:24:58.809 --> 00:24:59.049
see.

00:24:59.150 --> 00:25:03.932
But yeah, it's really not a good feeling.

00:25:05.393 --> 00:25:06.634
And it's really unfortunate because...

00:25:08.084 --> 00:25:10.665
Notepad++ kind of checks all the boxes

00:25:10.705 --> 00:25:14.127
that we would normally advertise for a

00:25:14.167 --> 00:25:15.269
good privacy tool, right?

00:25:15.348 --> 00:25:16.589
I mean, it's open source.

00:25:17.470 --> 00:25:18.711
As far as I know, it's offline.

00:25:19.070 --> 00:25:20.873
I'm sure it pings for updates and stuff,

00:25:20.893 --> 00:25:22.993
but it's not a cloud-based notepad.

00:25:23.114 --> 00:25:23.253
It's...

00:25:24.659 --> 00:25:25.940
It's very actively maintained.

00:25:26.019 --> 00:25:27.320
The developer is very active.

00:25:27.560 --> 00:25:31.664
But it just... This happened.

00:25:31.865 --> 00:25:34.727
And it's really frustrating because I was

00:25:34.767 --> 00:25:36.828
sitting here when I was reading this story

00:25:36.848 --> 00:25:39.111
and I was taking notes for the show.

00:25:39.971 --> 00:25:40.833
I was thinking to myself,

00:25:40.853 --> 00:25:41.692
what's the lesson here?

00:25:41.712 --> 00:25:43.454
Because normally the lesson is try to

00:25:44.115 --> 00:25:46.217
stick to open source or try to make

00:25:46.237 --> 00:25:47.278
sure you only get it from official

00:25:47.317 --> 00:25:47.837
sources.

00:25:48.519 --> 00:25:49.980
But when there's a supply chain attack

00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:50.760
like this, they're really...

00:25:53.371 --> 00:25:54.413
of just not what you can do i

00:25:54.453 --> 00:25:57.199
guess so yeah i don't know this this

00:25:57.219 --> 00:25:58.942
is a really unfortunate story i think my

00:25:58.982 --> 00:26:00.526
takeaway is and i know i already said

00:26:00.546 --> 00:26:01.848
this in the last story but just to

00:26:02.891 --> 00:26:04.555
to remember that um

00:26:06.400 --> 00:26:06.599
I mean,

00:26:06.660 --> 00:26:08.740
nothing is unhackable and it's important

00:26:08.760 --> 00:26:11.122
to be aware that anything you put in

00:26:11.162 --> 00:26:11.922
a digital format.

00:26:12.501 --> 00:26:13.561
And this is actually one of the things

00:26:13.603 --> 00:26:14.982
I like about notepad is you don't even

00:26:15.002 --> 00:26:15.663
have to save it.

00:26:16.083 --> 00:26:17.703
Like I have literally like seven open

00:26:17.743 --> 00:26:20.825
notes that I haven't saved for weeks and

00:26:20.884 --> 00:26:21.964
I should really do something with them.

00:26:22.065 --> 00:26:22.486
But you know,

00:26:22.625 --> 00:26:23.665
that's one of the things is it'll like

00:26:23.726 --> 00:26:25.507
hold onto those notes, um,

00:26:25.527 --> 00:26:26.547
without having to save them.

00:26:26.666 --> 00:26:27.727
And so even if you don't save it,

00:26:27.767 --> 00:26:28.307
if it's any,

00:26:28.407 --> 00:26:30.448
any kind of a digital format, it's,

00:26:30.567 --> 00:26:31.229
it's at risk.

00:26:31.588 --> 00:26:33.048
And I hate to say that cause that

00:26:33.068 --> 00:26:35.210
feels like paranoia, but, um,

00:26:35.713 --> 00:26:37.275
Yeah, that's kind of, I don't know,

00:26:37.315 --> 00:26:38.776
is there any better lesson that you took

00:26:38.796 --> 00:26:39.556
away from this one or?

00:26:39.576 --> 00:26:40.557
Yeah,

00:26:41.698 --> 00:26:43.878
I think this is kind of an unfortunate

00:26:43.939 --> 00:26:44.799
circumstance, right?

00:26:44.819 --> 00:26:47.080
But I think it does need to be

00:26:47.161 --> 00:26:48.541
said that, you know,

00:26:48.642 --> 00:26:51.864
open source tools are just as vulnerable

00:26:51.903 --> 00:26:53.744
to being exploited by these sort of things

00:26:53.924 --> 00:26:55.866
as closed source ones.

00:26:56.406 --> 00:26:56.626
You know,

00:26:56.646 --> 00:26:58.347
just because a tool is open source doesn't

00:26:58.387 --> 00:26:59.969
technically mean that this wouldn't have

00:26:59.989 --> 00:27:02.089
happened or this would have happened,

00:27:02.170 --> 00:27:02.351
right?

00:27:04.089 --> 00:27:05.631
So I think that's one thing to consider,

00:27:06.250 --> 00:27:08.471
but I think when it comes to note

00:27:08.692 --> 00:27:10.231
taking tools and such,

00:27:11.893 --> 00:27:14.594
I think it's important to use tools that

00:27:14.614 --> 00:27:16.413
have been independently verified, right?

00:27:16.513 --> 00:27:18.674
So if a security researcher had done an

00:27:18.755 --> 00:27:19.996
audit on this piece of software,

00:27:20.016 --> 00:27:20.615
for example,

00:27:21.316 --> 00:27:23.196
I think it would have been pretty obvious

00:27:23.237 --> 00:27:26.038
that this was a mistake in the update

00:27:26.057 --> 00:27:26.877
process, right?

00:27:28.759 --> 00:27:30.578
Any security researcher that would have

00:27:30.638 --> 00:27:32.099
had an eye over this,

00:27:33.196 --> 00:27:34.181
would have noticed this.

00:27:34.201 --> 00:27:36.731
So, you know, I think it's

00:27:38.163 --> 00:27:38.823
unfortunate,

00:27:38.883 --> 00:27:40.223
but I think there's things you can do

00:27:40.263 --> 00:27:41.625
to make sure that the software you're

00:27:41.724 --> 00:27:43.766
using isn't, uh,

00:27:43.986 --> 00:27:46.126
doesn't contain easily exploitable stuff

00:27:46.146 --> 00:27:46.487
like this.

00:27:46.507 --> 00:27:49.188
So, you know, with privacy guides, we,

00:27:49.347 --> 00:27:51.068
a lot of times we require independent

00:27:51.088 --> 00:27:53.130
verification by security researchers, um,

00:27:53.150 --> 00:27:55.750
or like a security firm,

00:27:55.790 --> 00:27:58.011
such as like cure or other ones.

00:27:58.031 --> 00:27:59.633
Um, so that is,

00:27:59.813 --> 00:28:01.292
that is something you can do to try

00:28:01.313 --> 00:28:03.134
and mitigate some of these concerns.

00:28:03.713 --> 00:28:06.375
But in that case as well, it is,

00:28:06.776 --> 00:28:07.016
you know,

00:28:07.625 --> 00:28:08.486
Things get missed.

00:28:08.946 --> 00:28:10.509
Not every single piece of software is

00:28:10.650 --> 00:28:11.211
infallible.

00:28:13.362 --> 00:28:14.241
And I think, yeah,

00:28:14.261 --> 00:28:15.442
someone in the chat said,

00:28:15.982 --> 00:28:18.223
JS said a secure OS could help a

00:28:18.263 --> 00:28:18.585
lot.

00:28:19.265 --> 00:28:19.845
Yeah, exactly.

00:28:19.924 --> 00:28:22.066
So if you have an operating system that

00:28:22.125 --> 00:28:25.847
has more control over the sandboxing of

00:28:25.887 --> 00:28:27.189
applications, for example,

00:28:27.229 --> 00:28:29.529
I'm sure Nate would like to talk about

00:28:29.730 --> 00:28:30.351
cubes,

00:28:30.750 --> 00:28:34.413
but there's all sorts of things you can

00:28:34.432 --> 00:28:37.193
do on Mac OS and Windows even has

00:28:37.273 --> 00:28:38.835
some sandboxing capabilities.

00:28:40.202 --> 00:28:42.523
So I think that is another important thing

00:28:42.545 --> 00:28:44.986
that people need to think about, right?

00:28:45.926 --> 00:28:48.968
Having adequate security protections and

00:28:49.067 --> 00:28:51.789
sandboxing and separating tasks into

00:28:52.109 --> 00:28:55.711
separate areas can definitely reduce the

00:28:56.093 --> 00:28:58.794
damage of an attack because in all

00:28:58.913 --> 00:29:00.414
circumstances, it's possible.

00:29:02.013 --> 00:29:03.755
Every piece of software can be exploited.

00:29:03.855 --> 00:29:07.497
So trying to reduce the damage that can

00:29:07.537 --> 00:29:10.519
happen is definitely a good step in the

00:29:10.538 --> 00:29:11.199
right direction.

00:29:14.383 --> 00:29:15.522
Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned audits,

00:29:15.563 --> 00:29:17.324
because that did completely slip my mind,

00:29:17.364 --> 00:29:19.044
because audits are really good.

00:29:19.204 --> 00:29:21.684
And I do want to point out that

00:29:21.825 --> 00:29:24.205
audits, and you did kind of mention this,

00:29:24.226 --> 00:29:25.507
things can still slip through the cracks,

00:29:25.547 --> 00:29:30.167
because audits are a snapshot of code at

00:29:30.188 --> 00:29:31.347
a specific point in time.

00:29:31.508 --> 00:29:35.869
So it's entirely possible that Notepad++

00:29:35.890 --> 00:29:37.589
could have been audited in June,

00:29:37.950 --> 00:29:38.871
or let's say May,

00:29:39.651 --> 00:29:41.673
And then this happened like the following

00:29:41.712 --> 00:29:42.914
month and there's really nothing to

00:29:42.934 --> 00:29:43.695
protect against that.

00:29:44.195 --> 00:29:44.876
But another thing,

00:29:45.057 --> 00:29:47.440
another advantage of audits is that they

00:29:47.500 --> 00:29:49.481
tend to show that an organization is

00:29:49.781 --> 00:29:52.585
really serious about their security and

00:29:52.644 --> 00:29:54.928
securing their supply chain and stuff like

00:29:54.948 --> 00:29:55.147
that.

00:29:55.347 --> 00:29:55.709
And, um,

00:29:57.150 --> 00:29:57.349
Again,

00:29:57.430 --> 00:29:58.570
I want to point out like audits are

00:29:58.590 --> 00:29:59.551
also really expensive.

00:30:00.172 --> 00:30:01.894
So just because a company doesn't get an

00:30:02.013 --> 00:30:03.494
audit doesn't mean that they're not safe

00:30:03.535 --> 00:30:04.875
or they're not taking it seriously,

00:30:05.236 --> 00:30:06.616
especially if it's like a really hobbyist

00:30:06.656 --> 00:30:06.998
project.

00:30:07.018 --> 00:30:08.358
Like I think notepad plus plus,

00:30:08.378 --> 00:30:09.920
if I remember correctly is donation only.

00:30:10.759 --> 00:30:12.201
So they probably don't have thousands of

00:30:12.241 --> 00:30:14.282
dollars to invite cure fifty three to come

00:30:14.323 --> 00:30:15.284
in and look at their code.

00:30:15.344 --> 00:30:17.546
But for those organizations that do have

00:30:17.586 --> 00:30:19.267
that kind of money, like Proton, Moldad,

00:30:20.107 --> 00:30:22.769
IVPN, I know there's plenty of others,

00:30:22.970 --> 00:30:23.109
but

00:30:24.230 --> 00:30:24.570
signal.

00:30:25.090 --> 00:30:27.672
When they bring in auditors and have them

00:30:27.692 --> 00:30:29.732
look at their code and they have that

00:30:29.752 --> 00:30:32.314
kind of resource, it shows that, again,

00:30:32.394 --> 00:30:32.794
like you said,

00:30:32.855 --> 00:30:34.335
things can slip through the cracks,

00:30:34.355 --> 00:30:35.836
but it's a really good sign because it

00:30:35.855 --> 00:30:39.377
means that they probably have a culture of

00:30:39.438 --> 00:30:42.419
security and it's less likely for bad

00:30:42.459 --> 00:30:43.019
things to happen.

00:30:43.199 --> 00:30:44.180
So yeah, I'm glad you brought that up.

00:30:45.920 --> 00:30:48.641
Um, and yeah, I mean, if you want,

00:30:48.661 --> 00:30:50.361
I will say cubes or, you know, there's,

00:30:50.381 --> 00:30:51.721
there's plenty of other ways to do this,

00:30:51.861 --> 00:30:52.801
but, uh, yeah, I,

00:30:52.942 --> 00:30:54.721
I am using cubes right now in front

00:30:54.741 --> 00:30:55.721
of me for those who didn't know.

00:30:55.942 --> 00:30:57.182
And, um,

00:30:57.222 --> 00:30:58.462
that is one of the things I like

00:30:58.482 --> 00:31:00.163
about it is the compartmentalization of,

00:31:00.843 --> 00:31:02.523
I literally have a cube for privacy

00:31:02.564 --> 00:31:02.884
guides.

00:31:02.983 --> 00:31:04.263
I have a cube for my personal stuff.

00:31:04.324 --> 00:31:05.384
I have a cube for banking.

00:31:06.224 --> 00:31:07.424
And, uh, if,

00:31:08.345 --> 00:31:11.566
if one of my software was to become

00:31:12.306 --> 00:31:12.905
in, um,

00:31:14.150 --> 00:31:16.171
I don't know why my brain refused to

00:31:16.191 --> 00:31:16.691
pick a word there.

00:31:17.832 --> 00:31:19.852
If one software I use became compromised

00:31:19.892 --> 00:31:20.593
and impacted,

00:31:21.373 --> 00:31:23.733
it would limit the damage to that specific

00:31:23.773 --> 00:31:25.555
cube, which is still suck,

00:31:25.835 --> 00:31:27.955
but at least it would limit the damage,

00:31:27.996 --> 00:31:28.256
right?

00:31:28.336 --> 00:31:29.175
So yeah,

00:31:29.237 --> 00:31:31.317
compartmentalization and secure OSs and

00:31:31.336 --> 00:31:34.318
things like that really do go a long

00:31:34.378 --> 00:31:35.058
way.

00:31:35.159 --> 00:31:39.080
All righty.

00:31:41.096 --> 00:31:42.961
Before we move on to the next story,

00:31:43.481 --> 00:31:45.866
we're going to pause here briefly to give

00:31:45.967 --> 00:31:49.213
an update of what's been going on behind

00:31:49.233 --> 00:31:50.998
the scenes at Privacy Guides.

00:31:52.288 --> 00:31:53.189
Um, so yeah,

00:31:53.209 --> 00:31:54.910
we're going to talk about Ram shortages

00:31:54.930 --> 00:31:56.090
affecting the raspberry PI,

00:31:56.111 --> 00:31:58.372
but first in case you guys didn't hear

00:31:58.551 --> 00:32:01.213
our smartphone security course is now open

00:32:01.253 --> 00:32:03.536
to the public or the first part of

00:32:03.576 --> 00:32:03.776
it is.

00:32:03.816 --> 00:32:05.277
So there's a,

00:32:05.297 --> 00:32:06.978
there's three parts technically kind of

00:32:06.998 --> 00:32:07.178
four,

00:32:07.278 --> 00:32:08.618
cause we have like a little intro video.

00:32:09.199 --> 00:32:09.680
And then from there,

00:32:09.700 --> 00:32:11.820
it branches off into Android and iPhone,

00:32:12.221 --> 00:32:13.582
and there's a beginner and intermediate

00:32:13.662 --> 00:32:14.482
and an advanced level.

00:32:15.022 --> 00:32:16.663
The beginner level is now open to the

00:32:16.683 --> 00:32:16.984
public.

00:32:18.884 --> 00:32:20.346
I will let Jordan talk about the

00:32:20.506 --> 00:32:22.266
intermediate iOS video in a second.

00:32:23.006 --> 00:32:24.727
But yeah, the beginner video focuses,

00:32:24.767 --> 00:32:25.787
if you guys haven't seen it yet,

00:32:26.166 --> 00:32:27.407
I do think it's on PureTube now.

00:32:27.587 --> 00:32:28.528
I could be wrong about that,

00:32:28.647 --> 00:32:29.347
but I'm pretty sure it is.

00:32:30.288 --> 00:32:33.788
The beginner video focuses on things that

00:32:35.150 --> 00:32:37.910
are really subtractive instead of additive

00:32:37.950 --> 00:32:38.990
to make your phone more secure.

00:32:39.030 --> 00:32:40.351
So things like removing apps you don't

00:32:40.510 --> 00:32:40.730
use,

00:32:41.151 --> 00:32:42.652
changing the settings and things like

00:32:42.692 --> 00:32:42.892
that.

00:32:43.769 --> 00:32:45.890
which I think should be doable for a

00:32:45.910 --> 00:32:47.410
lot of people because even simple things

00:32:47.430 --> 00:32:49.310
like downloading Signal or switching to

00:32:49.371 --> 00:32:50.290
Brave or Firefox,

00:32:50.990 --> 00:32:54.272
those are things that require people to

00:32:54.712 --> 00:32:55.673
take action, right?

00:32:55.692 --> 00:32:57.953
They require them to go download an app,

00:32:57.973 --> 00:32:58.814
sign up for an account,

00:32:58.993 --> 00:32:59.693
no matter how easy.

00:33:00.255 --> 00:33:01.335
And I think some people...

00:33:03.195 --> 00:33:04.395
I think it's a mental block that some

00:33:04.415 --> 00:33:05.737
people have a hard time doing that.

00:33:05.797 --> 00:33:08.497
And so the beginner level is things that

00:33:09.076 --> 00:33:10.577
anybody can do anytime, right?

00:33:10.617 --> 00:33:11.758
Like you're laying on the couch,

00:33:11.837 --> 00:33:12.877
instead of doom scrolling,

00:33:13.018 --> 00:33:14.698
start deleting apps and stuff like that.

00:33:14.758 --> 00:33:15.959
So yeah,

00:33:16.118 --> 00:33:18.818
I'm really excited that that's out to the

00:33:18.858 --> 00:33:19.459
public now.

00:33:20.219 --> 00:33:22.160
And I will turn it over to Jordan

00:33:22.200 --> 00:33:24.200
real quick to give us some updates on

00:33:24.619 --> 00:33:26.560
any upcoming videos if you'd like to,

00:33:27.060 --> 00:33:28.121
or if you want to hold off on

00:33:28.141 --> 00:33:28.340
that.

00:33:29.989 --> 00:33:30.630
Yeah, thanks.

00:33:31.109 --> 00:33:32.871
So I guess, yeah, like Nate said,

00:33:32.891 --> 00:33:35.353
we've got the intermediate smartphone

00:33:35.393 --> 00:33:36.854
security guides coming out soon,

00:33:37.013 --> 00:33:39.695
and we've already got the Android version

00:33:40.016 --> 00:33:40.376
done,

00:33:40.457 --> 00:33:42.077
and the iOS one is pretty close as

00:33:42.137 --> 00:33:42.417
well.

00:33:42.478 --> 00:33:45.140
So I'm hoping possibly early next week we

00:33:45.180 --> 00:33:47.442
can get that published for members.

00:33:48.082 --> 00:33:48.863
And if you're a member,

00:33:49.202 --> 00:33:51.244
you can get early access to videos,

00:33:51.285 --> 00:33:52.025
just a reminder.

00:33:54.223 --> 00:33:55.924
And that was sort of covering,

00:33:56.986 --> 00:33:57.786
I guess I should say,

00:33:58.705 --> 00:34:00.366
this whole smartphone security course has

00:34:00.386 --> 00:34:02.949
been written by Nate and overall direction

00:34:02.989 --> 00:34:03.648
by Nate here,

00:34:03.909 --> 00:34:05.329
which I think he did a great job

00:34:05.349 --> 00:34:05.630
with.

00:34:06.611 --> 00:34:08.351
And I think it'll be really,

00:34:08.632 --> 00:34:09.771
really useful to people.

00:34:09.791 --> 00:34:12.074
We've already had the beginner ones

00:34:12.114 --> 00:34:13.014
released to the public,

00:34:13.634 --> 00:34:14.534
and we already had some really good

00:34:14.554 --> 00:34:15.815
feedback on those videos.

00:34:16.795 --> 00:34:17.797
And that's just the beginning.

00:34:18.137 --> 00:34:21.940
So the intermediate ones dive more into

00:34:22.340 --> 00:34:23.681
things that, you know,

00:34:24.382 --> 00:34:26.625
are less to do with your device and

00:34:26.664 --> 00:34:28.746
more to do with the services that you

00:34:29.027 --> 00:34:31.668
use and the applications that you're

00:34:31.728 --> 00:34:32.248
utilizing.

00:34:32.730 --> 00:34:35.311
So for instance, you know,

00:34:35.858 --> 00:34:38.661
moving to encrypted email providers

00:34:38.760 --> 00:34:40.681
instead of using a plain text one like

00:34:40.722 --> 00:34:41.143
Gmail.

00:34:42.724 --> 00:34:43.945
I'm not going to give too much away

00:34:44.105 --> 00:34:45.244
just because I don't want to spoil the

00:34:45.264 --> 00:34:45.626
video.

00:34:45.885 --> 00:34:48.648
But we also do go into some of

00:34:48.668 --> 00:34:49.889
the things on Android,

00:34:49.909 --> 00:34:51.730
such as alternative app stores.

00:34:51.789 --> 00:34:53.231
So if you're interested in that sort of

00:34:53.271 --> 00:34:53.530
thing,

00:34:53.990 --> 00:34:56.032
you're not all the way into the advanced

00:34:56.793 --> 00:34:57.112
area,

00:34:57.494 --> 00:34:59.735
definitely look out for those videos next

00:34:59.775 --> 00:35:00.054
week.

00:35:00.376 --> 00:35:01.936
And we should have the advanced

00:35:03.264 --> 00:35:06.344
series coming out shortly after that as

00:35:06.425 --> 00:35:08.525
well because that's you know quite a bit

00:35:08.565 --> 00:35:10.606
shorter than the intermediate ones and

00:35:10.806 --> 00:35:12.326
Nate's kind of been on fire here he's

00:35:12.365 --> 00:35:14.646
been like writing so many videos up and

00:35:14.827 --> 00:35:16.327
sending the footage over to me so we've

00:35:16.427 --> 00:35:19.088
also got another video in the works which

00:35:19.188 --> 00:35:24.068
is the private messaging video which we're

00:35:24.088 --> 00:35:27.048
working on there's also I guess we haven't

00:35:27.068 --> 00:35:28.969
released have we released this yet

00:35:29.878 --> 00:35:32.219
We're also working on a video about

00:35:32.338 --> 00:35:33.458
private browsing.

00:35:33.539 --> 00:35:35.400
I'm not sure if that's actually released

00:35:35.440 --> 00:35:35.619
yet.

00:35:35.679 --> 00:35:36.239
Is it, Nate?

00:35:39.302 --> 00:35:40.762
That's a good question.

00:35:41.181 --> 00:35:42.242
The wheels are turning.

00:35:42.422 --> 00:35:46.003
I know because you've sent me the preview

00:35:46.023 --> 00:35:46.704
versions,

00:35:47.545 --> 00:35:49.065
but I don't know if we've published those

00:35:49.105 --> 00:35:50.465
to members yet.

00:35:50.806 --> 00:35:52.286
We're going to have to follow up on

00:35:52.327 --> 00:35:52.586
that one.

00:35:52.646 --> 00:35:53.286
I don't think we have.

00:35:54.447 --> 00:35:54.867
All right, then.

00:35:55.007 --> 00:35:57.389
I guess members, be ready for that.

00:35:57.429 --> 00:35:59.791
That'll be coming out hopefully after the

00:35:59.811 --> 00:36:01.592
stream if we can line everything up.

00:36:01.672 --> 00:36:02.713
But that's also done.

00:36:03.134 --> 00:36:04.655
So that was another video that Nate's

00:36:05.554 --> 00:36:07.996
scripted and put together the footage and

00:36:08.077 --> 00:36:08.476
recorded.

00:36:08.597 --> 00:36:10.858
And that was another really interesting

00:36:10.898 --> 00:36:11.599
video, I think,

00:36:11.639 --> 00:36:13.440
which is going to be useful for people

00:36:14.280 --> 00:36:17.503
to send to people that are stuck using

00:36:17.704 --> 00:36:20.085
Chrome or that have misconceptions about

00:36:20.105 --> 00:36:22.266
the private mode on Chrome because

00:36:23.413 --> 00:36:25.255
it's called incognito mode,

00:36:25.295 --> 00:36:27.336
but you're not really very incognito.

00:36:27.657 --> 00:36:29.980
So I think that'll be an interesting video

00:36:30.019 --> 00:36:32.282
for some people to send to their

00:36:32.322 --> 00:36:34.846
relatives, family, friends, you know,

00:36:34.865 --> 00:36:36.708
get people moving off Chrome.

00:36:36.967 --> 00:36:38.489
I think it's one of the easiest things

00:36:38.510 --> 00:36:40.592
you can get people to switch, you know,

00:36:40.632 --> 00:36:43.094
instead of Chrome, use Firefox, you know,

00:36:43.195 --> 00:36:43.635
instead of

00:36:46.123 --> 00:36:47.284
using incognito mode,

00:36:47.304 --> 00:36:49.927
you could use more bad browser instead.

00:36:49.947 --> 00:36:51.768
And that's really a private way to browse

00:36:51.788 --> 00:36:52.347
the internet.

00:36:52.628 --> 00:36:55.510
So that's kind of what it's looking like.

00:36:55.550 --> 00:36:58.211
We've got that look out for the private

00:36:58.251 --> 00:36:58.952
messaging video.

00:36:58.992 --> 00:37:00.753
That's what we'll be working on next week.

00:37:01.074 --> 00:37:02.414
And yeah,

00:37:02.614 --> 00:37:03.516
I guess I can throw it back to

00:37:03.556 --> 00:37:03.815
you, Nate.

00:37:03.835 --> 00:37:04.996
Is there any other things that we've been

00:37:05.036 --> 00:37:08.519
working on this week?

00:37:08.579 --> 00:37:09.820
I know we've got a few more news

00:37:09.880 --> 00:37:11.822
articles coming out this weekend.

00:37:12.021 --> 00:37:14.164
I, I tried really hard to,

00:37:15.050 --> 00:37:15.771
Throughout the week,

00:37:15.871 --> 00:37:17.452
I will collect news stories that I'm like,

00:37:17.652 --> 00:37:17.771
oh,

00:37:17.871 --> 00:37:19.132
this is important enough that I think we

00:37:19.152 --> 00:37:20.172
should write a brief about it,

00:37:20.552 --> 00:37:22.074
but it's not necessarily important enough

00:37:22.094 --> 00:37:23.273
to put in the podcast.

00:37:23.735 --> 00:37:25.335
And I keep telling myself every day,

00:37:25.375 --> 00:37:26.996
I'm like, all right, just take, you know,

00:37:27.076 --> 00:37:28.215
ten minutes, twenty minutes,

00:37:28.396 --> 00:37:29.396
write up a little quick,

00:37:29.416 --> 00:37:30.317
short thing about this.

00:37:30.876 --> 00:37:31.797
And then for some reason,

00:37:31.898 --> 00:37:32.878
by the time I get done with my

00:37:32.918 --> 00:37:34.858
work for the day, I'm so tired.

00:37:35.298 --> 00:37:36.639
So my point being, I end up, like,

00:37:36.679 --> 00:37:37.960
stacking them all towards the end of the

00:37:37.980 --> 00:37:39.280
week, and I really shouldn't do that.

00:37:39.340 --> 00:37:39.501
But...

00:37:40.681 --> 00:37:41.201
Yeah,

00:37:41.760 --> 00:37:42.722
we do have a bunch of those coming

00:37:42.782 --> 00:37:45.262
out, maybe half a dozen or so.

00:37:45.822 --> 00:37:46.882
And some of those are from me,

00:37:46.943 --> 00:37:48.503
some are from Freya,

00:37:48.523 --> 00:37:49.704
who's one of our regular writers.

00:37:49.744 --> 00:37:51.684
So I think that's about it.

00:37:53.364 --> 00:37:54.684
Yeah, and just to real quick,

00:37:54.724 --> 00:37:55.925
just to kind of address it,

00:37:56.626 --> 00:37:57.646
some of these videos we're putting out

00:37:57.666 --> 00:38:00.666
right now, I think are very entry level.

00:38:01.347 --> 00:38:03.126
And I think they're really good for

00:38:03.166 --> 00:38:04.588
sharing with your friends and family who

00:38:04.628 --> 00:38:07.248
maybe are not as excited about privacy as

00:38:07.268 --> 00:38:08.188
you are, or maybe...

00:38:10.195 --> 00:38:10.675
I don't know.

00:38:10.735 --> 00:38:12.077
I think most of you guys probably do

00:38:12.577 --> 00:38:13.757
a really good job of like sharing the

00:38:13.777 --> 00:38:14.699
stuff with your friends and family,

00:38:14.719 --> 00:38:15.778
but I guess it's just something you can

00:38:15.798 --> 00:38:16.380
share with people.

00:38:16.800 --> 00:38:18.400
But the point I'm getting at is don't

00:38:18.440 --> 00:38:18.641
worry.

00:38:18.701 --> 00:38:20.262
We will still be doing plenty of like

00:38:20.322 --> 00:38:21.443
really advanced, uh,

00:38:21.483 --> 00:38:23.043
stuff in the future for, you know,

00:38:23.083 --> 00:38:24.503
whatever your tech level is.

00:38:24.563 --> 00:38:26.405
So if, if you're thinking like, man,

00:38:26.425 --> 00:38:27.626
these are really entry level stuff,

00:38:27.686 --> 00:38:28.106
it's honestly,

00:38:28.186 --> 00:38:29.047
cause we kind of looked at our,

00:38:29.126 --> 00:38:31.128
our library of content and went, Oh,

00:38:31.509 --> 00:38:32.748
we haven't covered a lot of the really

00:38:32.768 --> 00:38:33.489
basic stuff.

00:38:33.510 --> 00:38:34.449
So that's kind of what we're doing.

00:38:34.489 --> 00:38:35.411
And, um,

00:38:35.490 --> 00:38:36.452
we're definitely going to get back into

00:38:36.512 --> 00:38:37.891
other stuff as we go.

00:38:38.293 --> 00:38:38.793
I think, um,

00:38:39.824 --> 00:38:41.307
probably sooner than later here, actually,

00:38:41.349 --> 00:38:42.431
probably after this next video,

00:38:42.472 --> 00:38:43.835
I would imagine we'll maybe looking to do

00:38:43.856 --> 00:38:45.581
in something a little bit more high level.

00:38:45.601 --> 00:38:45.722
So

00:38:47.414 --> 00:38:47.755
Yeah,

00:38:47.875 --> 00:38:49.976
I think one other thing that I guess

00:38:50.016 --> 00:38:51.217
we can touch on now,

00:38:51.597 --> 00:38:55.199
which should be coming out at least I

00:38:55.219 --> 00:38:56.960
would say in the next month or so,

00:38:57.340 --> 00:38:59.422
we're working on another section of the

00:38:59.483 --> 00:39:00.083
website.

00:39:00.103 --> 00:39:01.003
So if anyone's...

00:39:01.664 --> 00:39:03.025
I think people should kind of get hyped

00:39:03.065 --> 00:39:03.284
for that.

00:39:03.304 --> 00:39:05.246
There's been a lot of work behind the

00:39:05.266 --> 00:39:07.527
scenes from Em who's been working a lot

00:39:07.648 --> 00:39:09.748
on a separate section.

00:39:09.809 --> 00:39:11.030
I don't think I'll go into too much

00:39:11.070 --> 00:39:12.751
detail about it here because...

00:39:13.490 --> 00:39:14.592
There's, you know,

00:39:14.871 --> 00:39:16.233
it's still all being finalized,

00:39:16.333 --> 00:39:17.894
but it's definitely being worked on.

00:39:19.074 --> 00:39:20.356
And I think this is going to be

00:39:20.456 --> 00:39:22.197
kind of a pretty big year for privacy

00:39:22.237 --> 00:39:24.219
guides because we're expanding in so many

00:39:24.800 --> 00:39:25.579
exciting ways.

00:39:25.639 --> 00:39:28.061
So I'm really excited to see how that

00:39:28.222 --> 00:39:31.045
pans out.

00:39:31.085 --> 00:39:31.905
Yeah, definitely.

00:39:32.105 --> 00:39:33.927
Em has been super,

00:39:33.987 --> 00:39:35.307
super busy working on that.

00:39:35.527 --> 00:39:36.608
And I...

00:39:37.889 --> 00:39:40.791
I've seen the outlines of how that is

00:39:40.811 --> 00:39:41.572
going to be structured,

00:39:41.592 --> 00:39:43.492
but I haven't seen the...

00:39:44.853 --> 00:39:45.653
What I'm trying to get at is I'm

00:39:45.693 --> 00:39:46.315
excited to see it.

00:39:46.394 --> 00:39:47.295
I think it's going to be awesome.

00:39:47.394 --> 00:39:48.655
I know she's been working really hard on

00:39:48.735 --> 00:39:50.817
it, and yeah, it's going to be great.

00:39:52.518 --> 00:39:54.039
One more thing real quick before we jump

00:39:54.079 --> 00:39:56.480
into the next story is JS left another

00:39:56.519 --> 00:39:58.101
comment here about private browsing.

00:39:58.481 --> 00:39:59.862
Said Brave has a pretty good strategy with

00:39:59.882 --> 00:40:00.943
having ad block included.

00:40:02.043 --> 00:40:03.123
Yeah, it's really...

00:40:04.585 --> 00:40:05.844
Jonah and I touched on this in last

00:40:05.885 --> 00:40:06.666
week's episode, but...

00:40:08.282 --> 00:40:09.304
I think in my experience,

00:40:09.403 --> 00:40:11.045
one of the best ways to try and

00:40:11.246 --> 00:40:13.467
nudge people towards privacy tools is

00:40:13.588 --> 00:40:14.989
rather than focusing on the privacy and

00:40:15.009 --> 00:40:15.829
the security benefit,

00:40:16.831 --> 00:40:18.632
treat that as like a bonus and focus

00:40:18.713 --> 00:40:19.954
on how it makes their life easier.

00:40:20.014 --> 00:40:21.355
Like I've had really good success with

00:40:21.474 --> 00:40:23.056
getting people to try password managers

00:40:23.757 --> 00:40:24.818
because I happen to be in the room

00:40:24.838 --> 00:40:25.878
when they're trying to log into something

00:40:25.898 --> 00:40:27.260
and they're like, oh my God,

00:40:27.300 --> 00:40:28.722
what was my password for this website

00:40:28.762 --> 00:40:28.961
again?

00:40:28.981 --> 00:40:29.483
And I'm just like,

00:40:30.543 --> 00:40:30.882
hey,

00:40:31.242 --> 00:40:32.344
you want to know how to never forget

00:40:32.364 --> 00:40:34.364
your password again?

00:40:34.384 --> 00:40:35.643
And I run into those people six months

00:40:35.664 --> 00:40:36.585
later and they're like, oh my God,

00:40:36.625 --> 00:40:37.204
this is amazing.

00:40:37.264 --> 00:40:38.085
How did I live without this?

00:40:38.125 --> 00:40:39.385
So yeah, definitely.

00:40:40.266 --> 00:40:41.326
I've gotten people to switch to Brave

00:40:41.346 --> 00:40:42.365
doing that exact same thing.

00:40:43.706 --> 00:40:45.086
I saw two people in a Discord room

00:40:45.126 --> 00:40:46.307
I was in having a conversation where

00:40:46.327 --> 00:40:46.907
they're like, oh my God,

00:40:46.927 --> 00:40:48.467
the ads on this website are obnoxious.

00:40:48.507 --> 00:40:50.789
I'm like, have you tried it in Brave?

00:40:50.909 --> 00:40:53.150
And like, oh my God, Brave fixed it.

00:40:53.190 --> 00:40:54.010
This is awesome.

00:40:54.918 --> 00:40:55.699
So yeah,

00:40:57.079 --> 00:40:58.420
that is one thing Brave has going for

00:40:58.440 --> 00:40:58.480
it.

00:40:58.500 --> 00:40:59.780
But I know there's probably ways to

00:40:59.820 --> 00:41:01.541
recreate that in something like Firefox as

00:41:01.581 --> 00:41:01.842
well.

00:41:02.041 --> 00:41:04.503
So yeah, I just wanted to mention that.

00:41:05.623 --> 00:41:05.804
Yeah,

00:41:05.844 --> 00:41:08.226
it's kind of surprising to see what people

00:41:08.246 --> 00:41:09.967
will put up with on the modern web,

00:41:10.047 --> 00:41:11.648
like full-page ads,

00:41:11.807 --> 00:41:13.469
auto-playing video ads.

00:41:13.568 --> 00:41:14.809
Like, oh my goodness,

00:41:15.269 --> 00:41:16.690
it's a wasteland out there.

00:41:18.373 --> 00:41:18.512
Dude,

00:41:18.612 --> 00:41:19.914
I had to turn it off on YouTube

00:41:19.934 --> 00:41:20.974
the other day for something.

00:41:21.034 --> 00:41:21.954
I can't remember what it was.

00:41:23.376 --> 00:41:25.916
Oh, it was our intro video.

00:41:27.018 --> 00:41:28.217
I wanted to make sure that the end

00:41:28.277 --> 00:41:29.659
cards were, you know,

00:41:29.699 --> 00:41:30.599
click here to go to Android,

00:41:30.619 --> 00:41:31.619
click here to go to iOS.

00:41:32.159 --> 00:41:33.800
Quick note for other Brave users.

00:41:34.601 --> 00:41:36.143
And I wasn't seeing the end cards.

00:41:36.202 --> 00:41:36.463
And I'm like,

00:41:36.503 --> 00:41:38.063
did we not put end cards on there?

00:41:38.503 --> 00:41:40.144
And so I turned off my Brave Shields.

00:41:40.204 --> 00:41:41.865
I guess I had some optional thing turned

00:41:41.905 --> 00:41:42.965
on that got rid of the end cards.

00:41:43.447 --> 00:41:45.027
But while the Brave Shield was off,

00:41:45.067 --> 00:41:46.288
there was literally like a one minute

00:41:46.327 --> 00:41:47.728
pre-roll ad to start the video.

00:41:48.088 --> 00:41:49.070
There was an ad on the side.

00:41:49.090 --> 00:41:50.090
There was an ad below that.

00:41:50.110 --> 00:41:51.152
There was an ad at the bottom of

00:41:51.172 --> 00:41:51.572
the video.

00:41:51.632 --> 00:41:52.873
I'm just like, oh my God,

00:41:53.353 --> 00:41:54.815
how do people put up with this?

00:41:55.335 --> 00:41:56.697
It's so bad.

00:41:58.418 --> 00:41:59.880
Oh yeah.

00:41:59.900 --> 00:42:00.920
So definitely,

00:42:00.981 --> 00:42:02.021
I don't know how people live like that.

00:42:03.021 --> 00:42:04.661
Speaking of bad things,

00:42:04.942 --> 00:42:07.983
there is being an ongoing RAM crisis.

00:42:08.643 --> 00:42:10.262
And I don't know if you've seen that,

00:42:10.302 --> 00:42:12.804
but one of our previous team members,

00:42:12.864 --> 00:42:13.264
Kevin,

00:42:13.324 --> 00:42:15.744
he wrote an article about the whole RAM

00:42:15.784 --> 00:42:16.885
crisis that's going on.

00:42:17.445 --> 00:42:18.706
And unfortunately,

00:42:18.726 --> 00:42:22.027
that has now started to affect Raspberry

00:42:22.086 --> 00:42:22.568
Pi.

00:42:22.748 --> 00:42:25.909
So Raspberry Pis have received another

00:42:25.969 --> 00:42:27.748
price hike in the last two months.

00:42:28.210 --> 00:42:30.030
And basically, the more RAM the board has,

00:42:30.150 --> 00:42:31.971
the more its price is increasing.

00:42:32.690 --> 00:42:34.391
So just quoting from this article here

00:42:34.431 --> 00:42:35.431
from Ars Technica,

00:42:36.952 --> 00:42:39.494
the ongoing AI-fueled shortages of memory

00:42:39.574 --> 00:42:41.976
and storage chips has hit RAM kits and

00:42:42.155 --> 00:42:45.257
SSDs for PC builders the fastest and

00:42:45.297 --> 00:42:45.797
hardest,

00:42:46.197 --> 00:42:47.539
meaning it's likely that for other

00:42:47.579 --> 00:42:48.938
products that use these chips,

00:42:49.239 --> 00:42:51.079
we'll be seeing price hikes for the entire

00:42:51.179 --> 00:42:53.340
rest of the year, if not longer.

00:42:54.021 --> 00:42:55.943
And the latest price hike news comes

00:42:56.003 --> 00:42:57.724
courtesy of Raspberry Pi CEO

00:42:58.583 --> 00:43:00.905
Eben Upton, sorry if I said that wrong,

00:43:01.244 --> 00:43:03.025
who announced today that the company would

00:43:03.045 --> 00:43:05.085
be raising prices on most of its single

00:43:05.126 --> 00:43:07.266
board computers for the second time in two

00:43:07.306 --> 00:43:07.706
months.

00:43:08.166 --> 00:43:09.987
Prices are going up for all Raspberry Pi

00:43:10.047 --> 00:43:12.708
four and Raspberry Pi five boards with two

00:43:12.748 --> 00:43:17.809
gigabytes of or more of LPDDR four RAM,

00:43:17.909 --> 00:43:20.389
including the compute module four and five

00:43:20.489 --> 00:43:22.471
and the Raspberry Pi five hundred computer

00:43:22.550 --> 00:43:23.411
inside a keyboard.

00:43:24.699 --> 00:43:27.139
And the two gigabyte boards pricing will

00:43:27.159 --> 00:43:28.159
go up by ten dollars.

00:43:28.559 --> 00:43:30.500
Four gigabyte boards will go up by fifteen

00:43:30.519 --> 00:43:30.880
dollars.

00:43:31.300 --> 00:43:33.081
Eight gigabyte boards will go up by thirty

00:43:33.400 --> 00:43:35.581
and sixteen gigabyte boards will increase

00:43:35.641 --> 00:43:38.101
by a whopping sixty dollars.

00:43:38.141 --> 00:43:41.563
So I'm kind of happy about this in

00:43:41.603 --> 00:43:42.603
a very selfish way.

00:43:42.742 --> 00:43:45.324
I actually bought a Raspberry Pi like two

00:43:45.364 --> 00:43:46.903
months ago before the price hike.

00:43:46.983 --> 00:43:48.965
So I'm kind of happy that I decided

00:43:49.005 --> 00:43:50.724
to finally replace mine.

00:43:51.144 --> 00:43:52.485
But what do you what do you think

00:43:52.505 --> 00:43:52.905
about this?

00:43:56.166 --> 00:43:56.547
Yeah,

00:43:57.887 --> 00:43:59.148
I happen to have a couple of Raspberry

00:43:59.188 --> 00:44:01.289
Pis sitting around at home that I'm

00:44:01.329 --> 00:44:02.090
actually not using,

00:44:02.110 --> 00:44:03.271
and I'm trying to figure out what to

00:44:03.311 --> 00:44:03.811
do with them.

00:44:06.291 --> 00:44:08.012
And pardon my technical difficulties while

00:44:08.052 --> 00:44:09.994
I try to get my screen share back

00:44:10.054 --> 00:44:10.434
up here.

00:44:10.554 --> 00:44:13.556
But yeah, it's... I don't know.

00:44:13.635 --> 00:44:14.916
It's really a bummer because the whole

00:44:14.956 --> 00:44:16.757
selling point of the Raspberry Pi is that

00:44:17.338 --> 00:44:18.418
they're so cheap, right?

00:44:18.538 --> 00:44:21.380
And personal opinion, I think that's a...

00:44:23.072 --> 00:44:25.012
I think that's slightly misleading to say

00:44:25.032 --> 00:44:26.735
that they're so cheap because they do...

00:44:29.036 --> 00:44:30.416
They're very cheap if you just want the

00:44:30.436 --> 00:44:30.757
board.

00:44:31.697 --> 00:44:33.278
But if you want the case that goes

00:44:33.358 --> 00:44:34.320
over it and stuff like that,

00:44:34.619 --> 00:44:37.422
I think it becomes a very different story

00:44:37.461 --> 00:44:37.902
at that point.

00:44:37.942 --> 00:44:39.043
I think the price does start to go

00:44:39.063 --> 00:44:39.804
up significantly.

00:44:41.744 --> 00:44:43.005
And maybe it's me because I have cats.

00:44:43.025 --> 00:44:43.306
And I'm like,

00:44:43.326 --> 00:44:44.367
the cat hair will get everywhere.

00:44:44.427 --> 00:44:46.228
It will absolutely get all over the board

00:44:46.248 --> 00:44:46.768
and everything.

00:44:48.369 --> 00:44:50.411
But either way, they're very inexpensive.

00:44:50.471 --> 00:44:51.030
And there's certainly...

00:44:52.315 --> 00:44:53.036
In my opinion,

00:44:53.215 --> 00:44:55.396
I don't think they make for good full

00:44:55.416 --> 00:44:55.936
computers.

00:44:56.016 --> 00:44:56.637
It's not like, oh,

00:44:56.677 --> 00:44:58.237
I got this thirty dollar computer.

00:44:59.317 --> 00:45:00.416
They're still definitely.

00:45:02.697 --> 00:45:03.538
They're still definitely.

00:45:06.478 --> 00:45:08.059
They're made for very specific tasks,

00:45:08.139 --> 00:45:08.998
is what I'm trying to say.

00:45:10.219 --> 00:45:10.978
They're really popular,

00:45:11.018 --> 00:45:11.878
and this is why we're covering them.

00:45:11.898 --> 00:45:12.940
They're really popular in the privacy

00:45:12.960 --> 00:45:14.639
community for running like a single and

00:45:14.900 --> 00:45:17.719
single member Mastodon instance or like a

00:45:17.800 --> 00:45:19.940
simple next cloud instance or DNS,

00:45:20.001 --> 00:45:20.221
you know,

00:45:20.240 --> 00:45:21.541
to block ads and stuff at home.

00:45:22.454 --> 00:45:22.614
Um,

00:45:22.775 --> 00:45:24.297
ads and trackers and all kinds of stuff.

00:45:24.376 --> 00:45:28.601
And so this to me.

00:45:30.103 --> 00:45:31.043
Sorry, I know I'm rambling a little bit,

00:45:31.063 --> 00:45:32.623
but this to me touches on a larger

00:45:32.704 --> 00:45:35.264
issue that I've been trying to figure out

00:45:35.385 --> 00:45:38.626
how to put into words and address for

00:45:38.686 --> 00:45:39.407
several years now,

00:45:39.867 --> 00:45:41.226
which is the idea of privacy as a

00:45:41.286 --> 00:45:41.766
privilege.

00:45:43.827 --> 00:45:46.389
Because it is really unfortunate when you

00:45:46.429 --> 00:45:47.550
have to pay for privacy.

00:45:48.210 --> 00:45:49.449
Like kind of going back to phones, right?

00:45:49.469 --> 00:45:51.010
We talk about something like Graphene OS.

00:45:51.710 --> 00:45:53.431
And Graphene OS is only available on a

00:45:53.472 --> 00:45:53.791
Pixel,

00:45:53.931 --> 00:45:55.893
which is a several hundred dollar phone.

00:45:56.721 --> 00:45:57.880
which is still cheaper than an iPhone.

00:45:57.940 --> 00:45:59.581
But it's not a cheap phone.

00:45:59.661 --> 00:46:02.041
And again, certain areas can't get pixels.

00:46:02.222 --> 00:46:03.983
And so it's almost like you have to

00:46:04.003 --> 00:46:06.422
be privileged enough to have the money and

00:46:06.483 --> 00:46:07.583
live in the right area to get a

00:46:07.603 --> 00:46:08.262
graphene phone.

00:46:09.184 --> 00:46:10.623
And that's really unfortunate.

00:46:10.664 --> 00:46:11.463
But at the same time,

00:46:11.543 --> 00:46:13.545
things like Raspberry Pis,

00:46:13.585 --> 00:46:15.025
things like VPN servers,

00:46:15.505 --> 00:46:16.525
those things cost money.

00:46:17.264 --> 00:46:20.025
And you can't

00:46:21.211 --> 00:46:23.574
You can't pay the rent for your office

00:46:24.554 --> 00:46:26.916
by, I don't know, telling the landlord,

00:46:26.936 --> 00:46:28.057
how do you signal, right?

00:46:28.077 --> 00:46:29.298
That's just not how the world works.

00:46:29.358 --> 00:46:31.920
So the point I'm getting at is it's

00:46:31.960 --> 00:46:33.583
really unfortunate to see this price go up

00:46:33.702 --> 00:46:37.206
on these very reasonably priced tools that

00:46:37.226 --> 00:46:38.206
are designed to help,

00:46:38.246 --> 00:46:40.027
or maybe they're not designed to,

00:46:40.047 --> 00:46:41.548
but they're very good for helping people

00:46:42.090 --> 00:46:43.550
reclaim control of their data.

00:46:44.070 --> 00:46:45.632
And it's really unfortunate to see that

00:46:46.856 --> 00:46:48.400
that barrier to entry go up,

00:46:48.840 --> 00:46:49.842
even if it's only a little bit.

00:46:50.023 --> 00:46:51.085
But at the same time, it's like,

00:46:51.164 --> 00:46:52.887
I don't know, some things just cost money.

00:46:52.907 --> 00:46:54.451
And that's an unfortunate reality of

00:46:54.751 --> 00:46:56.233
especially this situation right now.

00:46:56.394 --> 00:46:57.096
So, yeah.

00:46:58.320 --> 00:47:00.681
I think this is just another good reason

00:47:00.722 --> 00:47:02.864
to really dislike AI.

00:47:02.903 --> 00:47:04.485
This is the reason why all of this

00:47:04.505 --> 00:47:06.106
stuff is becoming more expensive.

00:47:06.146 --> 00:47:09.630
There's all these AI CEOs, tech companies,

00:47:09.989 --> 00:47:11.130
they're buying up all the RAM,

00:47:11.150 --> 00:47:13.672
they're buying up all the SSDs for running

00:47:13.833 --> 00:47:16.034
AI models because they need all that

00:47:16.074 --> 00:47:19.277
memory to train and to run all these

00:47:19.338 --> 00:47:21.300
models, right?

00:47:21.440 --> 00:47:21.960
It's not...

00:47:24.266 --> 00:47:25.326
And I think we've kind of seen this

00:47:25.346 --> 00:47:26.487
for a while with Raspberry Pi.

00:47:26.507 --> 00:47:29.887
It's kind of been a continuing drama with

00:47:29.927 --> 00:47:30.547
Raspberry Pi.

00:47:30.568 --> 00:47:31.909
They keep kind of,

00:47:31.929 --> 00:47:33.248
I don't know if you've noticed,

00:47:33.268 --> 00:47:35.090
but over the last couple of generations of

00:47:35.130 --> 00:47:35.789
Raspberry Pi,

00:47:35.849 --> 00:47:38.831
it's like they've been pushing the price

00:47:39.012 --> 00:47:40.811
up and up and up.

00:47:40.952 --> 00:47:42.393
And it's got to a point where,

00:47:42.512 --> 00:47:44.054
you know, I was looking at,

00:47:45.173 --> 00:47:47.894
like I had an original Raspberry Pi from

00:47:48.235 --> 00:47:49.635
like, like a Model B.

00:47:51.326 --> 00:47:54.306
And it finally died this year after.

00:47:55.208 --> 00:47:58.028
Fourteen years of dedicated service.

00:47:58.509 --> 00:47:59.369
So I had to replace it.

00:47:59.429 --> 00:47:59.650
Right.

00:48:00.250 --> 00:48:02.510
And there was nothing that was really the

00:48:02.530 --> 00:48:04.112
same price as what I'd paid for that

00:48:04.132 --> 00:48:05.172
original Raspberry Pi.

00:48:05.273 --> 00:48:06.972
I think I only paid like twenty five

00:48:07.012 --> 00:48:09.074
dollars for that original Raspberry Pi.

00:48:09.855 --> 00:48:10.974
So I guess I could have bought like

00:48:11.014 --> 00:48:13.717
a Raspberry Pi like mini one.

00:48:14.456 --> 00:48:16.197
But, you know, I think it's.

00:48:17.793 --> 00:48:18.094
Still,

00:48:18.253 --> 00:48:20.155
I think it's a problem with affordability,

00:48:20.215 --> 00:48:20.456
right?

00:48:20.556 --> 00:48:22.356
And I think Raspberry Pi has kind of

00:48:22.416 --> 00:48:25.318
been becoming more and more unaffordable

00:48:25.378 --> 00:48:26.119
as time goes on.

00:48:26.539 --> 00:48:28.260
And I'm not sure if the pricing is

00:48:28.380 --> 00:48:30.041
justifiable, in my opinion.

00:48:30.643 --> 00:48:32.384
I think there's plenty of alternative

00:48:33.385 --> 00:48:34.706
options to Raspberry Pi.

00:48:35.186 --> 00:48:36.586
Unfortunately, it does come with,

00:48:36.726 --> 00:48:37.047
you know,

00:48:37.788 --> 00:48:39.909
downsides such as software support not

00:48:39.929 --> 00:48:42.170
being as good and, you know,

00:48:42.210 --> 00:48:44.271
just general community support not being

00:48:44.311 --> 00:48:44.672
as good.

00:48:45.413 --> 00:48:46.514
But I think, you know,

00:48:47.722 --> 00:48:48.943
There's definitely, you know,

00:48:49.003 --> 00:48:50.784
bargains to be found like JS in the

00:48:50.804 --> 00:48:52.686
chat said, I bought a mini PC,

00:48:52.726 --> 00:48:54.447
sixteen gigabytes of RAM and one hundred

00:48:54.527 --> 00:48:57.190
Intel CPU for one hundred and sixty USD.

00:48:57.630 --> 00:48:58.090
Exactly.

00:48:58.250 --> 00:49:02.713
You know, I think that's oh, yeah.

00:49:02.753 --> 00:49:04.195
So they increased the price of that

00:49:05.175 --> 00:49:06.697
because of the RAM shortage.

00:49:07.018 --> 00:49:09.159
I think also another another thing with

00:49:09.519 --> 00:49:14.483
with these buying new is kind of not

00:49:14.503 --> 00:49:15.364
always the best way to go.

00:49:15.503 --> 00:49:15.704
Right.

00:49:18.052 --> 00:49:20.153
there's plenty of used options for,

00:49:20.233 --> 00:49:20.454
you know,

00:49:20.494 --> 00:49:22.355
you don't need a Raspberry Pi to run

00:49:22.996 --> 00:49:24.675
a couple of small services.

00:49:24.715 --> 00:49:27.538
You could always get like a refurbished

00:49:27.978 --> 00:49:28.878
business computer,

00:49:28.938 --> 00:49:31.760
like a Dell Optiplex or, you know,

00:49:31.780 --> 00:49:34.760
these old retired business computers that

00:49:34.800 --> 00:49:36.681
they're selling for like absolutely

00:49:37.061 --> 00:49:37.463
nothing.

00:49:37.503 --> 00:49:39.304
Like you can basically get them for free.

00:49:40.123 --> 00:49:42.105
They may not be as power efficient,

00:49:42.284 --> 00:49:43.465
but you're still getting the,

00:49:44.545 --> 00:49:47.329
ability to run those low powered services.

00:49:48.110 --> 00:49:49.891
So I think there is always an option.

00:49:49.952 --> 00:49:51.293
But I do think when it comes to

00:49:51.552 --> 00:49:54.275
the thing you said about privacy being a

00:49:54.335 --> 00:49:54.775
privilege,

00:49:55.577 --> 00:49:58.820
I think it's definitely a matter of

00:49:58.860 --> 00:49:59.440
perspective.

00:49:59.501 --> 00:49:59.760
I think

00:50:01.088 --> 00:50:03.911
people can still do quite a lot for

00:50:03.931 --> 00:50:04.552
their privacy.

00:50:04.592 --> 00:50:06.635
Like a lot of privacy tools are free,

00:50:06.916 --> 00:50:09.278
like ProtonMail, Tudor, that's all free.

00:50:09.418 --> 00:50:11.121
Like you don't actually need to pay.

00:50:11.460 --> 00:50:13.302
Like you can still get away with having

00:50:13.322 --> 00:50:14.083
a free account.

00:50:15.164 --> 00:50:17.007
And I think it's important to have these

00:50:17.327 --> 00:50:18.289
free options, right?

00:50:18.789 --> 00:50:19.590
Where, you know,

00:50:21.054 --> 00:50:23.338
freemium model is really good in that

00:50:23.378 --> 00:50:24.199
circumstance, right?

00:50:24.239 --> 00:50:25.139
Like with Bitwarden,

00:50:25.739 --> 00:50:28.503
you can have a syncing vault with security

00:50:28.764 --> 00:50:30.706
and it's free for the most part.

00:50:30.786 --> 00:50:32.387
You miss out on some small features,

00:50:32.447 --> 00:50:34.889
but you're getting a lot of those features

00:50:34.971 --> 00:50:36.753
that are the most important for free.

00:50:37.963 --> 00:50:39.224
And I think, you know,

00:50:40.126 --> 00:50:41.688
it is kind of unfortunate that there's

00:50:41.708 --> 00:50:43.829
things like hardware where it's a little

00:50:43.849 --> 00:50:45.731
bit more tricky with like, you know,

00:50:45.871 --> 00:50:47.833
like Nate said, there's Google pixels.

00:50:47.853 --> 00:50:49.476
They cost quite a lot of money depending

00:50:49.516 --> 00:50:50.456
on what country you're in.

00:50:51.057 --> 00:50:53.539
And they can also kind of, uh,

00:50:54.476 --> 00:50:57.201
have you know problems with international

00:50:58.041 --> 00:51:01.286
uh shipping you know not every country has

00:51:01.927 --> 00:51:03.929
has pixels available um it's not a

00:51:03.969 --> 00:51:07.875
globally available uh device but you know

00:51:09.030 --> 00:51:10.432
I think a lot of people can also

00:51:10.472 --> 00:51:12.974
get a really good level of privacy just

00:51:13.056 --> 00:51:14.998
by, you know, deep loading their phone,

00:51:15.137 --> 00:51:17.681
switching the usage on their device, or,

00:51:17.740 --> 00:51:17.960
you know,

00:51:18.161 --> 00:51:19.702
instead maybe going for an iPhone,

00:51:20.224 --> 00:51:22.445
which is available in a lot of locations.

00:51:22.967 --> 00:51:24.989
So I think people don't have, you know,

00:51:25.429 --> 00:51:26.329
zero options.

00:51:27.170 --> 00:51:28.612
But I do think if you do want

00:51:28.692 --> 00:51:30.594
that highest level of security and

00:51:30.634 --> 00:51:31.114
privacy,

00:51:31.153 --> 00:51:34.297
you definitely are going to need to shell

00:51:34.456 --> 00:51:36.619
out some money for the hardware.

00:51:36.719 --> 00:51:38.300
But I think when it comes to software,

00:51:38.740 --> 00:51:41.342
we have a lot of good free options.

00:51:42.023 --> 00:51:43.945
There's a bunch of examples like the Tor

00:51:43.985 --> 00:51:44.445
browser.

00:51:44.945 --> 00:51:47.148
You can browse anonymously for free.

00:51:47.168 --> 00:51:48.007
It doesn't cost money.

00:51:48.889 --> 00:51:50.269
But a lot of that is supported by

00:51:50.329 --> 00:51:54.233
Tor network operators who do this for the

00:51:54.273 --> 00:51:54.853
love of the game.

00:51:55.054 --> 00:51:55.474
They're not...

00:51:56.275 --> 00:51:57.275
in this to make money.

00:51:57.315 --> 00:52:00.697
They're doing it to promote the free

00:52:00.737 --> 00:52:01.157
internet,

00:52:01.177 --> 00:52:03.038
to allow people to access information.

00:52:03.637 --> 00:52:06.039
So I think we do have a lot

00:52:06.079 --> 00:52:08.579
of privacy tools that are accessible to a

00:52:08.619 --> 00:52:09.219
lot of people.

00:52:09.721 --> 00:52:11.420
But there's also that gap that I think

00:52:11.501 --> 00:52:13.382
needs to be filled when it comes to

00:52:13.422 --> 00:52:13.882
hardware,

00:52:13.922 --> 00:52:16.202
because we don't really have very many

00:52:16.262 --> 00:52:18.023
affordable hardware options.

00:52:18.123 --> 00:52:19.764
Because Google Pixels,

00:52:19.804 --> 00:52:20.505
they're starting at like,

00:52:20.545 --> 00:52:21.405
five hundred bucks.

00:52:23.197 --> 00:52:27.340
And it's kind of hard to shell out

00:52:27.581 --> 00:52:28.262
that much money.

00:52:28.681 --> 00:52:31.485
A lot of people don't have that much

00:52:31.545 --> 00:52:34.847
expendable income to just drop on a phone.

00:52:35.168 --> 00:52:36.108
That's why a lot of people,

00:52:36.869 --> 00:52:39.152
they go with carrier plans,

00:52:39.192 --> 00:52:41.034
like they pay their phone off every month.

00:52:41.233 --> 00:52:44.336
So I think we do need to be

00:52:44.556 --> 00:52:46.438
thinking about the accessibility of things

00:52:46.619 --> 00:52:46.759
and

00:52:47.599 --> 00:52:49.840
It'll be good if there was another phone

00:52:49.880 --> 00:52:52.342
option that was similar security to a

00:52:52.382 --> 00:52:53.943
Google Pixel that, you know,

00:52:54.563 --> 00:52:56.224
would allow people to do the same thing,

00:52:56.324 --> 00:52:57.963
but with a much more affordable price.

00:52:58.043 --> 00:52:59.465
But right now we don't really seem to

00:52:59.505 --> 00:53:01.585
have that.

00:53:01.626 --> 00:53:04.306
So, yeah, I don't really have,

00:53:04.646 --> 00:53:05.827
I feel like I've been talking about this

00:53:05.867 --> 00:53:06.307
for a while,

00:53:06.347 --> 00:53:07.728
but do you have anything you want to

00:53:07.789 --> 00:53:08.668
add to that, Nate?

00:53:10.367 --> 00:53:10.947
No, that's fine.

00:53:10.987 --> 00:53:12.387
I mean, I ramble plenty.

00:53:14.248 --> 00:53:15.108
No, and yeah,

00:53:15.248 --> 00:53:16.748
just to back up what you said,

00:53:16.768 --> 00:53:17.668
you're absolutely right.

00:53:17.688 --> 00:53:19.329
There is so much in privacy that can

00:53:19.369 --> 00:53:21.269
be done for free or cheap,

00:53:21.289 --> 00:53:23.391
like Signal and encrypted email.

00:53:24.971 --> 00:53:25.971
But it's just, yeah,

00:53:26.070 --> 00:53:27.492
it's unfortunate that once you start

00:53:27.512 --> 00:53:28.811
getting to those higher,

00:53:28.911 --> 00:53:31.092
and those things do so much.

00:53:31.112 --> 00:53:38.914
How am I trying to word this?

00:53:40.030 --> 00:53:41.092
It's the whole like, what is it?

00:53:41.112 --> 00:53:43.434
The Pareto principle, like, that,

00:53:43.974 --> 00:53:54.724
you know, I think, like,

00:53:54.784 --> 00:53:55.483
switching browsers,

00:53:55.523 --> 00:53:56.865
switching communication methods,

00:53:57.246 --> 00:53:58.606
blocking ads, all that kind of stuff,

00:53:59.188 --> 00:53:59.788
probably gets you, like,

00:54:04.733 --> 00:54:07.215
There are a handful of, I would argue,

00:54:07.277 --> 00:54:08.778
very reputable free VPNs,

00:54:09.259 --> 00:54:11.621
but they're also horribly slow and very

00:54:11.661 --> 00:54:13.164
limited on their capabilities.

00:54:13.184 --> 00:54:16.088
Like you were saying,

00:54:16.108 --> 00:54:18.311
it's unfortunate that once you start

00:54:18.351 --> 00:54:19.914
getting to those higher levels of

00:54:20.054 --> 00:54:20.393
really...

00:54:22.623 --> 00:54:24.083
I guess perfecting for lack of a better

00:54:24.103 --> 00:54:25.583
word, like perfecting your privacy.

00:54:26.164 --> 00:54:27.485
Cause obviously privacy is a journey.

00:54:27.525 --> 00:54:28.885
We'll never really get there.

00:54:29.445 --> 00:54:30.945
There's no such thing as perfect privacy,

00:54:31.005 --> 00:54:32.706
but once you start really doing those

00:54:32.746 --> 00:54:33.347
advanced things,

00:54:33.407 --> 00:54:34.887
like you mentioned switching to a graphene

00:54:34.927 --> 00:54:35.126
phone,

00:54:35.146 --> 00:54:36.668
like there's significant barriers and it's

00:54:37.288 --> 00:54:38.608
just, it's very unfortunate I feel like.

00:54:40.369 --> 00:54:41.869
But yeah.

00:54:41.889 --> 00:54:44.429
I don't know.

00:54:44.510 --> 00:54:44.650
Yeah.

00:54:44.690 --> 00:54:44.909
I think,

00:54:45.010 --> 00:54:46.369
I think you kind of summed up all

00:54:46.389 --> 00:54:47.570
my, my thoughts on this one.

00:54:47.630 --> 00:54:47.871
It is,

00:54:50.338 --> 00:54:51.521
It's unfortunate, and yeah,

00:54:51.581 --> 00:54:52.842
it's another reason to be mad at AI,

00:54:52.882 --> 00:54:56.387
because yeah, this is... Oh my god, yeah.

00:54:57.228 --> 00:54:57.809
I'm so mad.

00:54:58.710 --> 00:54:59.992
Everything's so expensive right now,

00:55:00.032 --> 00:55:00.112
and...

00:55:00.987 --> 00:55:01.266
You know,

00:55:01.487 --> 00:55:02.668
you and I were talking before the

00:55:02.708 --> 00:55:05.070
recording about maybe, yes,

00:55:05.130 --> 00:55:06.130
the rain cloud, perfect.

00:55:06.911 --> 00:55:08.311
We were talking before the recording that

00:55:08.391 --> 00:55:09.313
maybe I might need to get a new

00:55:09.353 --> 00:55:10.373
computer and my wife,

00:55:11.213 --> 00:55:12.534
she's been having some issues with her

00:55:12.594 --> 00:55:12.775
Pop!

00:55:12.835 --> 00:55:14.876
OS laptop, which it's not system.

00:55:14.916 --> 00:55:16.438
It's literally like a different ThinkPad

00:55:16.458 --> 00:55:16.938
that has Pop!

00:55:16.978 --> 00:55:17.559
OS on it.

00:55:17.599 --> 00:55:20.961
And thankfully we found some stuff online

00:55:21.001 --> 00:55:22.382
that we could install and it helps with

00:55:22.402 --> 00:55:23.143
the power management.

00:55:23.182 --> 00:55:25.045
And so that can has been kicked down

00:55:25.085 --> 00:55:25.905
the road, but yeah,

00:55:25.945 --> 00:55:27.425
now is not a good time to need

00:55:27.485 --> 00:55:28.126
new computers.

00:55:30.110 --> 00:55:30.710
So frustrating.

00:55:31.871 --> 00:55:32.371
Yeah.

00:55:32.391 --> 00:55:34.331
I'm truly sorry to anyone who needs to

00:55:34.351 --> 00:55:36.333
buy an SSD or RAM right now.

00:55:37.833 --> 00:55:39.353
I still need to buy a backup drive.

00:55:41.173 --> 00:55:41.994
Yeah.

00:55:42.014 --> 00:55:44.175
I do wonder if hard drives are affected.

00:55:44.195 --> 00:55:45.094
That would be interesting.

00:55:46.275 --> 00:55:46.695
I was going to say,

00:55:46.735 --> 00:55:48.835
I think hard drives are significantly less

00:55:48.876 --> 00:55:50.295
affected, if at all.

00:55:51.036 --> 00:55:52.177
So it's probably not that big a deal.

00:55:52.217 --> 00:55:55.577
But yeah, that's frustrating.

00:55:55.597 --> 00:55:57.277
Okay.

00:55:59.219 --> 00:56:01.659
We do have one more story real quick,

00:56:01.980 --> 00:56:03.159
and I think I got my screen share

00:56:03.199 --> 00:56:03.659
fixed here.

00:56:04.380 --> 00:56:09.141
And this is about Microsoft and their use

00:56:09.240 --> 00:56:11.262
of AI.

00:56:11.342 --> 00:56:13.822
Is it going to work?

00:56:13.882 --> 00:56:15.101
Oh, hold on one moment.

00:56:16.342 --> 00:56:16.523
Yeah,

00:56:16.643 --> 00:56:18.902
so this is actually potentially some good

00:56:18.943 --> 00:56:19.143
news,

00:56:19.182 --> 00:56:22.364
which is that Microsoft is apparently,

00:56:22.463 --> 00:56:26.105
allegedly reconsidering how much AI they

00:56:26.164 --> 00:56:28.025
are cramming into Windows.

00:56:29.422 --> 00:56:32.284
So for those who are fortunate enough not

00:56:32.304 --> 00:56:33.903
to have to deal with Windows Eleven,

00:56:34.945 --> 00:56:35.585
Microsoft,

00:56:36.804 --> 00:56:38.525
on the topic of AI and raising prices

00:56:38.545 --> 00:56:39.025
and everything,

00:56:39.465 --> 00:56:40.927
Microsoft is part of the problem because

00:56:40.947 --> 00:56:43.206
they have been cramming AI aggressively

00:56:43.327 --> 00:56:45.027
into everything you could possibly

00:56:45.047 --> 00:56:45.407
imagine.

00:56:45.648 --> 00:56:45.887
Like,

00:56:46.949 --> 00:56:48.528
I'm going to get really niche with my

00:56:48.568 --> 00:56:49.068
references here,

00:56:49.088 --> 00:56:49.929
but if you guys have ever seen the

00:56:49.949 --> 00:56:51.869
show The IT Crowd, which if you haven't,

00:56:51.889 --> 00:56:52.891
you should because it's hilarious,

00:56:53.550 --> 00:56:53.771
but

00:56:54.530 --> 00:56:56.110
In the first season of The IT Crowd,

00:56:56.130 --> 00:56:58.771
and I didn't notice this until I rewatched

00:56:58.811 --> 00:56:59.411
it years later,

00:56:59.851 --> 00:57:01.952
there's EFF stickers literally everywhere.

00:57:02.391 --> 00:57:03.932
And I found out later that's because Cory

00:57:03.952 --> 00:57:05.432
Doctorow was one of the advisors on that

00:57:05.472 --> 00:57:05.652
show.

00:57:05.733 --> 00:57:06.853
And he was, I believe,

00:57:06.873 --> 00:57:08.233
a board member at EFF at the time.

00:57:08.552 --> 00:57:09.853
So he just stuck stickers everywhere.

00:57:10.253 --> 00:57:11.034
And then in season two,

00:57:11.074 --> 00:57:12.594
there's significantly less stickers

00:57:12.634 --> 00:57:14.114
because I think even the EFF told him

00:57:14.134 --> 00:57:14.594
to chill out.

00:57:15.155 --> 00:57:17.135
So that's basically what Microsoft has

00:57:17.155 --> 00:57:20.255
been doing with AI is anything you can

00:57:20.295 --> 00:57:22.315
think of, they're slapping AI on it.

00:57:22.835 --> 00:57:22.996
And...

00:57:24.056 --> 00:57:26.217
This has not gone over well at all,

00:57:26.538 --> 00:57:27.617
at all, at all, at all,

00:57:28.057 --> 00:57:30.320
because numerous studies are coming out

00:57:30.360 --> 00:57:33.481
showing that most people at best do not

00:57:33.501 --> 00:57:34.222
care about AI.

00:57:34.742 --> 00:57:36.443
Most people either hate it or they're

00:57:36.463 --> 00:57:37.284
completely indifferent.

00:57:37.583 --> 00:57:39.344
There are very few people that are excited

00:57:39.364 --> 00:57:40.005
about AI.

00:57:40.706 --> 00:57:43.867
And Microsoft is finally getting that

00:57:43.907 --> 00:57:44.128
memo.

00:57:45.751 --> 00:57:46.893
Oh, man.

00:57:46.913 --> 00:57:47.634
Where do we even begin?

00:57:48.134 --> 00:57:48.755
Apparently,

00:57:49.436 --> 00:57:51.699
Copilot is integrated into Notepad for

00:57:51.739 --> 00:57:53.661
some reason on the topic of why people

00:57:53.722 --> 00:57:54.943
use Notepad++ earlier.

00:57:55.744 --> 00:57:56.565
It's in Paint,

00:57:56.865 --> 00:57:58.387
which I guess that one I kind of

00:57:58.427 --> 00:57:59.789
understand a little bit better for

00:58:00.150 --> 00:58:01.431
generative AI, but...

00:58:03.173 --> 00:58:03.634
I don't know.

00:58:04.014 --> 00:58:06.717
If I want a powerful image editor,

00:58:06.817 --> 00:58:08.177
I'll probably go with Photoshop or

00:58:08.197 --> 00:58:08.398
something.

00:58:08.418 --> 00:58:08.657
I don't know.

00:58:08.677 --> 00:58:09.318
I'm getting off topic.

00:58:09.358 --> 00:58:10.400
But anyways,

00:58:10.420 --> 00:58:12.061
I'm just pointing out how deeply they've

00:58:12.081 --> 00:58:13.322
shoved AI into everything.

00:58:13.902 --> 00:58:14.643
Most notably,

00:58:15.384 --> 00:58:17.144
many of the privacy veterans will remember

00:58:18.166 --> 00:58:18.567
Recall,

00:58:19.166 --> 00:58:21.509
which is one of the most horrifying

00:58:21.548 --> 00:58:22.989
privacy invasions of the last several

00:58:23.030 --> 00:58:23.570
years, probably.

00:58:24.793 --> 00:58:25.773
I said one of, for the record.

00:58:26.155 --> 00:58:27.275
It's definitely not the worst,

00:58:27.295 --> 00:58:27.795
but it's up there.

00:58:27.856 --> 00:58:27.996
Which,

00:58:28.317 --> 00:58:29.617
real quick for those who don't know,

00:58:30.880 --> 00:58:32.661
it's literally an AI that takes a shot

00:58:32.681 --> 00:58:33.802
of your screen, a screenshot,

00:58:33.902 --> 00:58:35.445
every couple of minutes or couple of

00:58:35.465 --> 00:58:35.885
seconds.

00:58:36.445 --> 00:58:38.268
And the idea is that you're supposed to

00:58:38.288 --> 00:58:39.789
be able to type into your computer, like,

00:58:40.289 --> 00:58:40.451
oh,

00:58:40.550 --> 00:58:42.793
what was that website that had the green

00:58:43.233 --> 00:58:44.775
shoes that I was looking at or whatever?

00:58:45.416 --> 00:58:46.577
And it would go through and it would

00:58:46.597 --> 00:58:47.077
be like, oh,

00:58:47.117 --> 00:58:48.398
that was this link on Amazon.

00:58:48.737 --> 00:58:50.478
The problem is it was so poorly thought

00:58:50.559 --> 00:58:52.539
out that it didn't redact social security

00:58:52.581 --> 00:58:53.820
numbers, passwords.

00:58:53.920 --> 00:58:55.001
It did redact Netflix though.

00:58:55.302 --> 00:58:56.742
So we know where Microsoft's priorities

00:58:56.782 --> 00:58:56.922
were.

00:58:57.523 --> 00:59:00.264
Anyways, anyways, all this hatred aside,

00:59:00.865 --> 00:59:01.166
real quick,

00:59:01.206 --> 00:59:02.726
just to round off that saga for anyone

00:59:02.746 --> 00:59:03.226
who wasn't there,

00:59:03.527 --> 00:59:05.027
there was so much pushback that Microsoft

00:59:05.047 --> 00:59:06.728
did actually delay it a whole year to

00:59:06.768 --> 00:59:07.449
try and fix it.

00:59:07.969 --> 00:59:09.050
And by fix,

00:59:09.130 --> 00:59:10.552
I'm going to put that in heavy quotations

00:59:10.592 --> 00:59:10.891
because it

00:59:12.663 --> 00:59:14.443
They made it less obviously terrible,

00:59:14.483 --> 00:59:15.143
but it was still pretty bad.

00:59:15.164 --> 00:59:18.324
But anyways, according to...

00:59:18.465 --> 00:59:19.885
So this article is pretty light on

00:59:19.905 --> 00:59:20.226
details.

00:59:20.286 --> 00:59:21.405
I do want to acknowledge that upfront.

00:59:22.045 --> 00:59:24.347
But this comes from Windows Central and

00:59:24.507 --> 00:59:26.327
they have unnamed sources that work at

00:59:26.367 --> 00:59:28.949
Microsoft who basically said Microsoft is

00:59:29.168 --> 00:59:30.449
reconsidering a lot of things.

00:59:31.130 --> 00:59:31.690
Unfortunately,

00:59:32.130 --> 00:59:33.449
I don't think most of it's going away

00:59:33.469 --> 00:59:34.451
from the way this article's word.

00:59:35.630 --> 00:59:37.612
They said they have paused work on any

00:59:37.672 --> 00:59:39.753
additional co-pilot buttons for inbox apps

00:59:39.793 --> 00:59:40.172
for now.

00:59:41.237 --> 00:59:43.518
I do believe there are a few things

00:59:43.539 --> 00:59:44.679
that they're still going to go ahead with,

00:59:44.739 --> 00:59:47.539
like semantic search, agentic workspace,

00:59:47.639 --> 00:59:48.581
Windows machine learning,

00:59:48.661 --> 00:59:50.360
and Windows AI APIs.

00:59:50.800 --> 00:59:51.762
Microsoft believes that these

00:59:51.942 --> 00:59:53.322
under-the-hood AI efforts are still

00:59:53.342 --> 00:59:54.882
important for app developers and users,

00:59:55.902 --> 00:59:57.643
even though nobody wants an agentic AI

00:59:58.344 --> 00:59:59.445
workstation, but whatever.

01:00:02.150 --> 01:00:03.891
There is, I can't find it now,

01:00:03.951 --> 01:00:05.251
but I think they did say there are

01:00:05.271 --> 01:00:06.492
a few things that they're just dropping

01:00:06.532 --> 01:00:07.072
entirely.

01:00:07.853 --> 01:00:08.233
Oh, sorry.

01:00:08.313 --> 01:00:09.253
Okay, so they didn't, here it is.

01:00:09.293 --> 01:00:10.173
They didn't commit to it,

01:00:10.213 --> 01:00:11.094
but Notepad and Paint,

01:00:11.135 --> 01:00:12.014
the ones I mentioned earlier,

01:00:12.375 --> 01:00:13.695
they said that those are under review.

01:00:13.996 --> 01:00:15.396
So those might get pulled entirely.

01:00:16.056 --> 01:00:18.858
What's very also likely is they said that

01:00:19.619 --> 01:00:21.079
the company is basically trying to

01:00:22.608 --> 01:00:24.989
rethink things uh what they used a

01:00:25.030 --> 01:00:27.090
phrasing about copilot that i thought was

01:00:27.170 --> 01:00:29.952
or not copilot recall uh recall in its

01:00:29.992 --> 01:00:31.753
current implementation has failed though i

01:00:31.813 --> 01:00:33.253
understand the company is exploring ways

01:00:33.273 --> 01:00:35.896
to evolve the concept rather than scrap it

01:00:35.916 --> 01:00:38.277
entirely possibly dropping the recall name

01:00:38.297 --> 01:00:39.898
in the process though this is unconfirmed

01:00:40.637 --> 01:00:42.039
uh personal opinion they can evolve it

01:00:42.259 --> 01:00:43.579
right into the recycle bin where it

01:00:43.599 --> 01:00:46.240
belongs but anyways yeah it's it's

01:00:47.563 --> 01:00:47.802
So it's,

01:00:47.862 --> 01:00:49.485
it's really unclear what direction this is

01:00:49.505 --> 01:00:49.985
going to take,

01:00:50.065 --> 01:00:51.387
but it is good that they're finally

01:00:51.427 --> 01:00:51.786
listening.

01:00:52.166 --> 01:00:53.728
And, uh, this is coming,

01:00:53.768 --> 01:00:54.349
the article notes,

01:00:54.389 --> 01:00:56.210
this is coming on the heels of Microsoft

01:00:56.251 --> 01:00:59.273
admitting that windows is horribly broken

01:00:59.313 --> 01:00:59.554
right now.

01:00:59.693 --> 01:00:59.914
Uh,

01:01:00.976 --> 01:01:02.356
it's been in my headlines in my newsfeed

01:01:02.396 --> 01:01:03.797
a lot lately and usually not for good

01:01:03.838 --> 01:01:04.137
reasons.

01:01:04.798 --> 01:01:06.840
And they did commit to trying to quote

01:01:06.860 --> 01:01:08.422
unquote, fix windows this year.

01:01:08.501 --> 01:01:08.902
Although again,

01:01:08.922 --> 01:01:10.304
they didn't really say what that entails.

01:01:10.684 --> 01:01:11.885
This is probably part of that.

01:01:12.565 --> 01:01:12.686
Um,

01:01:13.842 --> 01:01:14.822
I will say that in my opinion,

01:01:15.222 --> 01:01:17.083
I think their AI implementation is so bad

01:01:17.123 --> 01:01:19.583
that really anything is fixing it at this

01:01:19.623 --> 01:01:19.963
point.

01:01:21.144 --> 01:01:22.764
Anything they can do to make it less

01:01:22.784 --> 01:01:23.224
terrible,

01:01:23.324 --> 01:01:27.005
whether that's making it less obnoxious,

01:01:27.246 --> 01:01:28.246
whether that's getting rid of it

01:01:28.266 --> 01:01:28.786
completely,

01:01:28.945 --> 01:01:30.905
whether that's hopefully making recall

01:01:30.947 --> 01:01:32.027
less of a privacy nightmare.

01:01:32.547 --> 01:01:33.686
I think the very least they should do

01:01:33.706 --> 01:01:34.567
is make it optional.

01:01:35.947 --> 01:01:36.827
They're probably not going to do that

01:01:36.847 --> 01:01:37.708
because this is Microsoft.

01:01:38.547 --> 01:01:39.248
I guess I'll just say that.

01:01:39.309 --> 01:01:40.668
I don't really have high hopes that this

01:01:40.688 --> 01:01:41.849
is going to be revolutionary,

01:01:42.769 --> 01:01:46.092
but I am hoping that they can make

01:01:46.132 --> 01:01:47.072
it less terrible.

01:01:47.713 --> 01:01:48.313
I really think...

01:01:49.693 --> 01:01:50.554
I don't want to say that's the only

01:01:50.574 --> 01:01:51.795
direction they can go in because this is

01:01:51.835 --> 01:01:52.315
Microsoft.

01:01:52.335 --> 01:01:53.655
They can definitely find ways to surprise

01:01:53.695 --> 01:01:53.795
us,

01:01:53.876 --> 01:01:58.599
but I definitely don't have hopes for them

01:01:58.639 --> 01:02:01.840
to actually make this good in any way.

01:02:03.041 --> 01:02:03.981
I just hope they'll find a way to

01:02:04.021 --> 01:02:04.302
make it

01:02:06.047 --> 01:02:07.608
Not so bad.

01:02:08.509 --> 01:02:10.090
I think those are kind of my thoughts

01:02:10.150 --> 01:02:10.610
on this one.

01:02:10.971 --> 01:02:12.672
Do you have anything you want to add

01:02:12.713 --> 01:02:13.572
to this, Jordan?

01:02:13.652 --> 01:02:14.954
I think you're lucky enough not to be

01:02:14.994 --> 01:02:16.275
subjected to the nightmare that is

01:02:16.315 --> 01:02:16.596
Windows,

01:02:17.617 --> 01:02:18.496
but I don't know if you still have

01:02:18.516 --> 01:02:18.938
any thoughts.

01:02:19.773 --> 01:02:20.233
Yeah,

01:02:20.273 --> 01:02:23.135
I've kind of avoided using Windows almost

01:02:23.175 --> 01:02:23.815
completely.

01:02:24.034 --> 01:02:24.335
I mean,

01:02:24.675 --> 01:02:26.215
Mac OS isn't really that much better,

01:02:26.315 --> 01:02:29.538
but Linux is definitely a good place to

01:02:29.557 --> 01:02:30.117
be right now.

01:02:31.239 --> 01:02:32.599
So I think that's, yeah,

01:02:32.679 --> 01:02:34.119
I agree with everything you were saying.

01:02:34.159 --> 01:02:34.400
You know,

01:02:34.599 --> 01:02:36.081
it is kind of frustrating that like

01:02:36.121 --> 01:02:38.442
Microsoft is working on stuff that

01:02:38.521 --> 01:02:40.043
seemingly not that many people are

01:02:40.063 --> 01:02:40.983
actually interested in.

01:02:41.563 --> 01:02:42.003
Like, you know,

01:02:42.103 --> 01:02:44.804
adding all these AI recall features and

01:02:44.844 --> 01:02:46.005
co-pilot things.

01:02:47.146 --> 01:02:47.947
I think, you know...

01:02:49.045 --> 01:02:50.806
Microsoft is kind of realizing, yeah,

01:02:50.827 --> 01:02:51.989
we're going to have to actually add

01:02:52.028 --> 01:02:53.871
features to the operating system that our

01:02:54.052 --> 01:02:55.313
users actually want.

01:02:55.554 --> 01:02:55.873
You know,

01:02:55.954 --> 01:02:58.016
like we don't just have to add silly

01:02:58.217 --> 01:02:59.778
like AI integrations.

01:03:01.380 --> 01:03:02.543
I really hope that, you know,

01:03:03.083 --> 01:03:05.706
this is a sign that the AI bubble

01:03:05.746 --> 01:03:06.807
is finally going to, you know,

01:03:07.628 --> 01:03:09.449
explode because you know these companies

01:03:09.550 --> 01:03:11.112
aren't getting the returns on their

01:03:11.152 --> 01:03:12.853
investments they were looking for right

01:03:13.213 --> 01:03:14.853
they're probably dumping a huge amount of

01:03:14.873 --> 01:03:16.936
money into into developing these features

01:03:17.376 --> 01:03:19.157
and kind of going all in on AI

01:03:19.177 --> 01:03:20.918
because I know like I've seen the CEO

01:03:20.978 --> 01:03:22.438
of Microsoft he was saying you know

01:03:22.940 --> 01:03:25.762
they're going all in on agentic operating

01:03:25.802 --> 01:03:28.543
systems and utilizing all these new you

01:03:28.563 --> 01:03:30.045
know developing all these new AI

01:03:30.085 --> 01:03:31.425
integrations and I think

01:03:32.512 --> 01:03:35.034
it's finally good to see them realize

01:03:35.054 --> 01:03:35.753
that, you know,

01:03:35.793 --> 01:03:37.534
the majority of people are not really

01:03:37.614 --> 01:03:40.637
interested in this and that they're going

01:03:40.657 --> 01:03:43.159
to start scaling it back because yeah,

01:03:43.840 --> 01:03:44.159
it's,

01:03:45.780 --> 01:03:47.061
I guess we should also talk about this

01:03:47.081 --> 01:03:48.503
from a privacy perspective.

01:03:49.063 --> 01:03:50.523
You know, I think it goes without saying,

01:03:50.563 --> 01:03:50.784
you know,

01:03:50.824 --> 01:03:53.606
an agentic operating system and operating

01:03:53.626 --> 01:03:57.248
system that is basically sharing a lot of

01:03:57.327 --> 01:03:59.190
information about your system with,

01:03:59.210 --> 01:03:59.630
you know,

01:04:00.224 --> 01:04:02.565
a third party because in a lot of

01:04:02.606 --> 01:04:06.166
cases, this processing isn't done locally.

01:04:06.206 --> 01:04:06.507
You know,

01:04:06.547 --> 01:04:08.827
a lot of the processing that is done

01:04:08.847 --> 01:04:11.128
for these agentic systems is actually

01:04:11.148 --> 01:04:12.869
being sent to a third party service.

01:04:13.048 --> 01:04:14.469
And this is kind of terrible for a

01:04:14.509 --> 01:04:16.590
lot of reasons because, you know,

01:04:17.050 --> 01:04:19.130
information that you thought was private

01:04:19.329 --> 01:04:22.971
and was local on your computer is then

01:04:23.010 --> 01:04:25.731
basically being broadcast onto the

01:04:25.811 --> 01:04:26.251
internet.

01:04:26.331 --> 01:04:28.032
Like I know a really good, uh,

01:04:29.574 --> 01:04:30.873
a really good thing to think about this,

01:04:30.934 --> 01:04:31.153
right,

01:04:31.213 --> 01:04:33.635
is let's say you're talking to someone on

01:04:33.755 --> 01:04:36.554
Signal on a Windows computer,

01:04:36.996 --> 01:04:39.635
and they've got some agentic operating

01:04:39.675 --> 01:04:41.436
system features running at the same time,

01:04:41.815 --> 01:04:43.137
that could be recording you,

01:04:43.157 --> 01:04:46.217
that could be monitoring your call,

01:04:46.376 --> 01:04:48.077
and it could be saving that or sending

01:04:48.097 --> 01:04:49.458
it to a third party server,

01:04:50.057 --> 01:04:52.958
which is breaking the privacy of Signal.

01:04:54.179 --> 01:04:55.739
You're just adding a listener on the other

01:04:55.818 --> 01:04:56.039
end.

01:04:56.099 --> 01:04:58.099
You're just sending this information to a

01:04:58.139 --> 01:04:59.119
third party server.

01:05:00.643 --> 01:05:04.164
So I think at least some people that

01:05:04.704 --> 01:05:06.806
care about their privacy have been saying

01:05:06.846 --> 01:05:07.045
this,

01:05:07.146 --> 01:05:09.527
but I think it's good that in general

01:05:09.567 --> 01:05:10.967
people aren't that interested in this

01:05:11.007 --> 01:05:14.989
because if this was to become more popular

01:05:15.108 --> 01:05:16.730
and available on operating systems,

01:05:16.750 --> 01:05:18.010
it would kind of be a nightmare.

01:05:18.451 --> 01:05:19.871
It would kind of be a privacy nightmare

01:05:19.891 --> 01:05:23.972
because then you don't really know what

01:05:23.992 --> 01:05:25.472
you're sending to another person is

01:05:25.552 --> 01:05:27.333
actually private or if it's being sent to

01:05:27.373 --> 01:05:28.474
a third party server.

01:05:30.989 --> 01:05:32.931
I'm just happy that Microsoft is realizing

01:05:33.072 --> 01:05:34.733
that this is a bad idea.

01:05:35.333 --> 01:05:36.835
Maybe it's not for the same reasons that

01:05:36.896 --> 01:05:38.838
we care about, which is, you know,

01:05:38.918 --> 01:05:40.639
it being a privacy nightmare and

01:05:41.139 --> 01:05:43.603
destroying any sense of privacy that

01:05:43.643 --> 01:05:44.242
people have.

01:05:45.244 --> 01:05:47.626
But it's good either way.

01:05:47.887 --> 01:05:51.791
I think we can take this win.

01:05:51.851 --> 01:05:52.652
Yeah, for sure.

01:05:52.891 --> 01:05:53.552
And that's...

01:05:54.878 --> 01:05:56.039
That's something that's in the back of my

01:05:56.059 --> 01:05:57.719
head, too, when I talk about, you know,

01:05:57.780 --> 01:05:58.221
I said, like,

01:05:58.260 --> 01:05:59.902
hopefully this will be optional and it'll

01:05:59.922 --> 01:06:01.043
be, like, less terrible.

01:06:02.244 --> 01:06:04.545
But even optionally, Microsoft is,

01:06:04.565 --> 01:06:05.867
or Windows, I mean,

01:06:06.306 --> 01:06:08.909
is such a notoriously leaky operating

01:06:08.949 --> 01:06:10.530
system from a privacy perspective.

01:06:11.231 --> 01:06:13.152
And I don't...

01:06:15.168 --> 01:06:16.128
I think I posted it in a group

01:06:16.148 --> 01:06:16.809
chat with my friends.

01:06:16.829 --> 01:06:17.809
I don't think I posted it in the

01:06:17.929 --> 01:06:18.789
Privacy Guides chat.

01:06:19.271 --> 01:06:21.052
But a few weeks ago,

01:06:21.271 --> 01:06:22.452
I may have mentioned it on here, actually.

01:06:22.853 --> 01:06:23.472
A few weeks ago,

01:06:23.612 --> 01:06:25.213
I realized that for some reason,

01:06:25.293 --> 01:06:28.175
my Windows computer hadn't updated since

01:06:28.376 --> 01:06:32.338
version, like, .

01:06:31.458 --> 01:06:33.199
It was whatever version just stopped

01:06:33.219 --> 01:06:34.380
getting support in November.

01:06:34.559 --> 01:06:35.501
And so I was like, okay.

01:06:36.240 --> 01:06:36.860
I need to sit down.

01:06:37.001 --> 01:06:38.563
I need to figure this out because I

01:06:38.603 --> 01:06:39.463
want to make sure I'm getting those

01:06:39.483 --> 01:06:40.164
security updates.

01:06:40.804 --> 01:06:42.425
And I had to jump through many,

01:06:42.445 --> 01:06:42.945
many hoops.

01:06:43.045 --> 01:06:44.547
I had to chase down all kinds of

01:06:44.586 --> 01:06:44.927
issues.

01:06:45.427 --> 01:06:46.668
Eventually, I did get it to update.

01:06:46.728 --> 01:06:47.568
Everything went smooth.

01:06:47.969 --> 01:06:49.570
But then because it was an update,

01:06:49.670 --> 01:06:51.771
it's introduced all these new features.

01:06:51.791 --> 01:06:52.911
And it was basically like a whole new

01:06:52.931 --> 01:06:53.351
computer.

01:06:53.793 --> 01:06:55.594
So I had to go through and I

01:06:55.634 --> 01:06:56.233
had to use...

01:06:57.733 --> 01:06:58.193
And for the record,

01:06:58.233 --> 01:06:59.155
not all of these are equal.

01:06:59.255 --> 01:07:02.757
So this is not like a broad endorsement,

01:07:03.197 --> 01:07:04.797
but I have very specific third-party

01:07:04.818 --> 01:07:06.798
scripts and tools that I trust to like

01:07:06.838 --> 01:07:08.300
de-bloat some of this Microsoft stuff.

01:07:08.920 --> 01:07:09.521
And I swear to God,

01:07:09.541 --> 01:07:11.422
it was like an hour long process to

01:07:11.461 --> 01:07:11.902
go through.

01:07:11.942 --> 01:07:12.882
And I only have like three of them

01:07:12.902 --> 01:07:13.362
that I use,

01:07:13.722 --> 01:07:14.963
but to go through all three of them

01:07:15.483 --> 01:07:17.626
and run them to get rid of the

01:07:17.666 --> 01:07:19.246
telemetry, get rid of the AI,

01:07:19.286 --> 01:07:21.329
get rid of this, get rid of that.

01:07:21.449 --> 01:07:23.130
And it was such, and that was,

01:07:23.489 --> 01:07:24.811
I'm not even talking about the whole

01:07:24.891 --> 01:07:25.711
updating process.

01:07:25.731 --> 01:07:27.592
I'm talking about just that part of going

01:07:27.632 --> 01:07:27.914
through,

01:07:28.313 --> 01:07:29.594
making sure all the settings that I want

01:07:29.655 --> 01:07:30.275
turned off are off,

01:07:30.315 --> 01:07:31.655
making sure that these scripts run,

01:07:32.876 --> 01:07:34.038
checking the scripts and making sure I

01:07:34.057 --> 01:07:35.219
know what they do and I'm okay with

01:07:35.278 --> 01:07:35.378
it.

01:07:35.458 --> 01:07:37.760
And just, it was so obnoxious.

01:07:37.840 --> 01:07:38.240
And it's like,

01:07:38.340 --> 01:07:40.503
it shouldn't be this ridiculous to use a

01:07:40.543 --> 01:07:40.943
computer

01:07:41.744 --> 01:07:43.925
without giving up all my privacy,

01:07:43.965 --> 01:07:44.824
plus the kitchen sink,

01:07:44.844 --> 01:07:46.166
plus the neighbor's kitchen sink,

01:07:46.266 --> 01:07:47.166
like it's insane.

01:07:47.266 --> 01:07:48.867
And so going back to what you were

01:07:48.887 --> 01:07:50.567
saying about AI is that's my concern is

01:07:50.586 --> 01:07:52.088
that even if they roll this out in

01:07:52.108 --> 01:07:53.168
a form where it's optional,

01:07:53.847 --> 01:07:56.708
does that only mean optional to the,

01:07:56.789 --> 01:07:59.730
like on the end user facing, like what's,

01:07:59.789 --> 01:08:00.530
what's the word I'm looking for?

01:08:00.590 --> 01:08:00.771
Like,

01:08:01.735 --> 01:08:02.896
where it seems optional.

01:08:02.956 --> 01:08:03.655
But in the background,

01:08:03.735 --> 01:08:04.757
it's still submitting data.

01:08:04.797 --> 01:08:05.858
It's still collecting data.

01:08:06.177 --> 01:08:07.699
And I'm sure it's less than if it

01:08:07.739 --> 01:08:09.900
was running in agentic mode or if Recall

01:08:09.940 --> 01:08:11.621
was taking those screenshots every three

01:08:11.641 --> 01:08:12.563
minutes or whatever it is.

01:08:13.163 --> 01:08:14.583
But it still just worries me that it's

01:08:14.603 --> 01:08:14.864
like, yeah,

01:08:14.884 --> 01:08:16.064
but this thing could still be running in

01:08:16.085 --> 01:08:16.586
the background,

01:08:16.966 --> 01:08:18.587
potentially introducing vulnerabilities,

01:08:18.646 --> 01:08:20.908
potentially sending more data than it

01:08:20.929 --> 01:08:22.810
should be back to Microsoft.

01:08:24.730 --> 01:08:25.372
That's what worries me.

01:08:25.412 --> 01:08:26.592
And it's such a shame

01:08:27.698 --> 01:08:28.998
as somebody who grew up on windows,

01:08:29.038 --> 01:08:30.399
like I'm not a windows fan boy by

01:08:30.479 --> 01:08:32.740
any measure, but I mean, let's be real.

01:08:32.780 --> 01:08:34.220
Like Macs are really expensive.

01:08:35.162 --> 01:08:37.141
And I mean,

01:08:37.181 --> 01:08:38.403
I guess now they're about the same because

01:08:38.422 --> 01:08:39.523
Mac is the only one that can afford

01:08:39.542 --> 01:08:40.823
to eat the price hike on Ram,

01:08:41.304 --> 01:08:41.644
but you know,

01:08:41.743 --> 01:08:43.163
historically Macs are really expensive and

01:08:43.184 --> 01:08:44.185
they work great and they've got great

01:08:44.204 --> 01:08:44.545
security,

01:08:44.585 --> 01:08:46.744
but you are absolutely unarguably paying

01:08:46.784 --> 01:08:47.426
for a brand name.

01:08:47.485 --> 01:08:48.286
That is a fact.

01:08:49.006 --> 01:08:51.346
And then Linux is free, but

01:08:53.277 --> 01:08:54.698
historically doesn't always do the things

01:08:54.757 --> 01:08:55.198
I need it to do.

01:08:55.257 --> 01:08:56.238
I really do want to test some of

01:08:56.257 --> 01:08:57.578
my production stuff and see how well it

01:08:57.618 --> 01:08:57.859
works.

01:08:57.899 --> 01:08:59.699
But I guess my point being is like,

01:09:00.079 --> 01:09:02.822
Windows has always been such a relatively

01:09:02.902 --> 01:09:05.422
affordable, customizable system.

01:09:05.443 --> 01:09:07.184
And it's really frustrating to just see it

01:09:07.203 --> 01:09:08.823
become worse and worse and worse in every

01:09:08.863 --> 01:09:09.524
sense of the word,

01:09:09.944 --> 01:09:11.746
from the UI to the privacy,

01:09:11.805 --> 01:09:13.827
to the bloat, to the just,

01:09:13.886 --> 01:09:14.487
it makes me sad.

01:09:14.686 --> 01:09:15.006
Like I said,

01:09:15.067 --> 01:09:16.528
I was never a Microsoft fan boy,

01:09:16.568 --> 01:09:18.889
but it's just, it used to be better.

01:09:19.708 --> 01:09:20.649
We used to be a society.

01:09:23.872 --> 01:09:25.275
I digress.

01:09:25.376 --> 01:09:26.279
I've ranted about that plenty.

01:09:29.466 --> 01:09:30.587
If that's all we've got for now,

01:09:30.667 --> 01:09:32.448
I think there are a couple of quick

01:09:32.488 --> 01:09:34.609
stories that we wanted to highlight.

01:09:35.869 --> 01:09:37.270
We're not going to talk about these

01:09:37.431 --> 01:09:40.453
extensively because admittedly we had this

01:09:40.474 --> 01:09:41.654
conversation earlier in the week.

01:09:42.414 --> 01:09:44.315
Jonah and I have been covering all the

01:09:44.395 --> 01:09:47.677
age verification stuff for literal weeks

01:09:48.238 --> 01:09:51.600
and we have nothing new to add.

01:09:52.902 --> 01:09:53.601
It's bad.

01:09:53.622 --> 01:09:54.563
We're not in favor of it.

01:09:54.622 --> 01:09:55.404
We think that there's

01:09:56.430 --> 01:09:58.292
better ways to protect children online.

01:09:58.931 --> 01:10:00.773
But we did want to let some of

01:10:00.813 --> 01:10:01.533
our listeners know,

01:10:01.673 --> 01:10:03.134
specifically in Spain and Greece,

01:10:03.255 --> 01:10:06.015
if you are Spanish or I guess it's

01:10:06.036 --> 01:10:06.536
Greek, isn't it?

01:10:07.176 --> 01:10:08.296
I almost said Grecian for some reason.

01:10:08.716 --> 01:10:09.898
But if you are Spanish or Greek,

01:10:10.597 --> 01:10:11.378
these are

01:10:12.158 --> 01:10:14.199
the latest countries who are now planning

01:10:14.239 --> 01:10:17.240
to ban social media for children under

01:10:17.280 --> 01:10:17.701
fifteen.

01:10:18.041 --> 01:10:21.042
So yeah, like I said,

01:10:21.082 --> 01:10:22.101
I don't think we really have anything to

01:10:22.141 --> 01:10:22.582
add to that,

01:10:22.703 --> 01:10:24.462
but if you do live in any of

01:10:24.483 --> 01:10:25.042
those countries,

01:10:25.224 --> 01:10:27.684
you should be aware of that.

01:10:27.703 --> 01:10:28.925
Do you have anything you want to add

01:10:28.944 --> 01:10:32.645
to that, Jordan?

01:10:32.666 --> 01:10:33.466
Not particularly.

01:10:33.546 --> 01:10:33.845
I mean,

01:10:34.287 --> 01:10:37.068
I think both you and Jonah have talked

01:10:37.087 --> 01:10:38.547
about this pretty extensively,

01:10:38.608 --> 01:10:39.729
so I don't think we need to drag

01:10:39.769 --> 01:10:40.189
this out,

01:10:40.309 --> 01:10:40.429
but

01:10:41.912 --> 01:10:44.693
It's frustrating that the start of this,

01:10:44.733 --> 01:10:45.033
you know,

01:10:45.073 --> 01:10:47.395
was with Australia's social media ban and

01:10:47.435 --> 01:10:48.935
now other countries are following.

01:10:49.095 --> 01:10:50.615
I think this is basically what we were

01:10:50.636 --> 01:10:51.856
saying from the start, you know,

01:10:52.296 --> 01:10:53.757
as soon as you normalize this in one

01:10:53.797 --> 01:10:54.238
country,

01:10:54.957 --> 01:10:56.958
every other country is going to start

01:10:56.979 --> 01:10:58.520
following suit and

01:11:00.230 --> 01:11:00.490
yeah,

01:11:00.930 --> 01:11:02.652
it's kind of unfortunate that that is

01:11:02.752 --> 01:11:04.233
exactly what is happening right now.

01:11:04.432 --> 01:11:05.332
We warned you,

01:11:05.653 --> 01:11:07.354
like we warned them that this is going

01:11:07.373 --> 01:11:10.375
to happen and no one was taking it

01:11:10.435 --> 01:11:12.936
seriously, but here we are.

01:11:13.417 --> 01:11:15.157
So it is kind of frustrating.

01:11:17.097 --> 01:11:17.398
Yeah.

01:11:17.698 --> 01:11:20.220
It is kind of frustrating that, you know,

01:11:20.319 --> 01:11:23.780
we've, we've been here, we've been, uh,

01:11:23.801 --> 01:11:25.542
saying it from the start, but, uh,

01:11:26.231 --> 01:11:27.412
now it's actually coming true.

01:11:27.512 --> 01:11:29.735
So yeah, I think, you know,

01:11:29.756 --> 01:11:31.157
do what you can in these countries,

01:11:31.217 --> 01:11:33.840
make your contact, your representatives,

01:11:34.020 --> 01:11:35.481
you know,

01:11:35.502 --> 01:11:37.583
try and educate people in your life about

01:11:37.645 --> 01:11:38.626
why this is bad.

01:11:39.246 --> 01:11:40.507
Hopefully there can be some,

01:11:42.145 --> 01:11:44.286
positives from this like you know it's it

01:11:44.326 --> 01:11:46.126
sounds like these are both announcing a

01:11:46.166 --> 01:11:48.006
ban they're not actually implemented yet

01:11:48.067 --> 01:11:49.327
so there's still a chance for you to

01:11:49.367 --> 01:11:51.828
have your voice heard so definitely try

01:11:51.868 --> 01:11:53.689
and at least make some noise about it

01:11:53.729 --> 01:11:57.829
because in a lot of cases uh if

01:11:57.869 --> 01:11:59.331
a lot of people are against this then

01:11:59.511 --> 01:12:02.631
you know it will end up being

01:12:04.061 --> 01:12:05.904
uh a lot harder for them to pass

01:12:05.944 --> 01:12:10.891
this with you know as many uh restrictions

01:12:11.113 --> 01:12:13.716
but i guess the the thing to remember

01:12:13.737 --> 01:12:16.841
about this is these are both you know

01:12:18.203 --> 01:12:19.244
in spain um

01:12:20.784 --> 01:12:22.787
I feel like they might have much stronger

01:12:22.846 --> 01:12:25.668
data protection laws than that of like

01:12:25.708 --> 01:12:26.909
Australia or the UK.

01:12:27.010 --> 01:12:28.230
So it's interesting how they're going to

01:12:28.251 --> 01:12:29.692
actually be able to implement this

01:12:30.512 --> 01:12:31.293
without, you know,

01:12:31.554 --> 01:12:32.574
because they're going to have to require

01:12:32.595 --> 01:12:34.416
people to provide their ID or do some

01:12:34.435 --> 01:12:35.436
sort of facial scanning.

01:12:35.837 --> 01:12:37.918
It'll be interesting to see how they're

01:12:37.939 --> 01:12:38.779
going to navigate that,

01:12:38.979 --> 01:12:42.542
like regarding the data protection laws.

01:12:42.582 --> 01:12:44.484
So that'll be something interesting to

01:12:44.524 --> 01:12:45.284
watch, I guess,

01:12:45.465 --> 01:12:47.686
but definitely try and make your voice

01:12:47.827 --> 01:12:48.908
heard about this issue.

01:12:51.637 --> 01:12:51.757
Yeah,

01:12:51.778 --> 01:12:53.701
I just want to add the slippery slope

01:12:54.181 --> 01:12:57.225
is I kind of hate using the slippery

01:12:57.246 --> 01:13:00.470
slope argument because it is not always

01:13:00.490 --> 01:13:02.172
applied in good faith and it doesn't

01:13:02.273 --> 01:13:03.435
always turn out to be true.

01:13:04.783 --> 01:13:05.904
But in the case of tech,

01:13:06.164 --> 01:13:08.466
I feel like it is true more often

01:13:08.485 --> 01:13:09.365
than it's not.

01:13:10.405 --> 01:13:10.645
Actually,

01:13:10.666 --> 01:13:11.667
a really good example is facial

01:13:11.686 --> 01:13:12.167
recognition.

01:13:12.646 --> 01:13:14.648
There have been multiple articles and

01:13:14.667 --> 01:13:17.069
stories written about how Facebook

01:13:17.168 --> 01:13:20.109
invented their little Ray-Ban facial

01:13:20.149 --> 01:13:22.211
recognition glasses years ago.

01:13:23.110 --> 01:13:24.851
And even at Facebook, they were just like,

01:13:24.912 --> 01:13:26.252
no, this is too much.

01:13:26.313 --> 01:13:27.393
This is a line too far.

01:13:27.853 --> 01:13:28.654
We're not going to do this.

01:13:28.713 --> 01:13:29.274
This is creepy.

01:13:30.618 --> 01:13:32.260
Until Clearview AI came along.

01:13:32.760 --> 01:13:34.721
And once Clearview AI came along and made

01:13:34.761 --> 01:13:36.283
facial recognition totally cool,

01:13:36.944 --> 01:13:38.166
now they couldn't wait to jump on the

01:13:38.185 --> 01:13:38.666
bandwagon.

01:13:38.805 --> 01:13:39.927
So yeah,

01:13:40.307 --> 01:13:41.829
I feel like with tech in particular,

01:13:42.791 --> 01:13:44.471
the slippery slope is true more often than

01:13:44.511 --> 01:13:47.796
it's not, which is so, so frustrating.

01:13:47.815 --> 01:13:52.801
Absolutely.

01:13:54.631 --> 01:13:57.573
With that, in a moment,

01:13:57.733 --> 01:13:59.613
we're actually going to start taking

01:13:59.753 --> 01:14:00.574
viewer questions.

01:14:01.354 --> 01:14:03.777
So if you have been holding on to

01:14:03.796 --> 01:14:05.537
any questions about the stories that we've

01:14:05.578 --> 01:14:06.018
talked about,

01:14:06.057 --> 01:14:07.618
go ahead and start leaving them on our

01:14:07.658 --> 01:14:10.020
forum thread or in the comment section of

01:14:10.060 --> 01:14:10.600
the livestream.

01:14:11.481 --> 01:14:11.962
But first,

01:14:12.202 --> 01:14:13.643
we're going to check in on our community

01:14:13.682 --> 01:14:14.123
forum.

01:14:14.484 --> 01:14:15.965
There's always a lot of activity,

01:14:16.164 --> 01:14:17.826
and this week has been no exception.

01:14:18.145 --> 01:14:19.886
But we're going to highlight just a couple

01:14:20.127 --> 01:14:22.368
of interesting stories that we wanted to

01:14:23.069 --> 01:14:23.789
discuss here.

01:14:24.944 --> 01:14:27.465
One of them is DuckDuckGo did a poll

01:14:27.664 --> 01:14:31.265
that shows that people are against AI.

01:14:31.386 --> 01:14:33.167
I feel like I read this story when

01:14:33.186 --> 01:14:34.046
it was first published.

01:14:34.207 --> 01:14:36.488
But yeah, I mean,

01:14:39.029 --> 01:14:40.168
the author of this post sums it up

01:14:40.189 --> 01:14:40.708
pretty well here.

01:14:40.748 --> 01:14:42.229
DuckDuckGo made a public poll to see what

01:14:42.270 --> 01:14:43.289
people think about AI,

01:14:43.350 --> 01:14:45.770
and ninety percent voted against.

01:14:46.451 --> 01:14:48.091
And I believe this thread has largely just

01:14:48.112 --> 01:14:48.572
been people

01:14:50.393 --> 01:14:53.614
discussing their opinions about AI.

01:14:53.854 --> 01:14:55.476
And I don't know,

01:14:55.796 --> 01:14:58.479
we just got done talking about AI and

01:14:58.498 --> 01:15:00.180
the RAM shortage and how that's affecting

01:15:00.199 --> 01:15:03.261
everything.

01:15:03.782 --> 01:15:05.904
Do you have any thoughts about AI, Jordan,

01:15:05.923 --> 01:15:09.586
or do you want me to go first?

01:15:09.706 --> 01:15:11.368
I mean, I think we can kind of,

01:15:11.648 --> 01:15:12.007
you know,

01:15:12.247 --> 01:15:13.469
I think we talked about a little bit

01:15:13.488 --> 01:15:13.809
before,

01:15:13.908 --> 01:15:16.631
but I think for a lot of people,

01:15:16.810 --> 01:15:17.231
these...

01:15:18.188 --> 01:15:18.408
you know,

01:15:18.528 --> 01:15:20.850
AI companies are kind of having a pretty

01:15:20.890 --> 01:15:22.211
negative impact on people,

01:15:22.470 --> 01:15:25.332
like just at like a personal level, right?

01:15:25.372 --> 01:15:28.074
Like they're building massive data

01:15:28.114 --> 01:15:28.555
centers.

01:15:28.595 --> 01:15:30.136
They're using a bunch of electricity,

01:15:30.176 --> 01:15:32.578
which is driving up electricity prices.

01:15:33.078 --> 01:15:34.639
It's driving up RAM prices.

01:15:34.679 --> 01:15:36.319
Like this is nothing that's good for the

01:15:36.399 --> 01:15:37.201
average person.

01:15:37.841 --> 01:15:39.381
And all for, you know,

01:15:39.922 --> 01:15:41.804
my cool little chat bot I can talk

01:15:41.823 --> 01:15:42.863
to whenever I want.

01:15:42.904 --> 01:15:43.685
Like, is that really,

01:15:44.145 --> 01:15:47.467
is the benefit really worth the cost?

01:15:47.627 --> 01:15:48.007
And I think,

01:15:48.568 --> 01:15:50.149
for a lot of times people are saying,

01:15:50.189 --> 01:15:52.813
you know, maybe not, you know,

01:15:53.292 --> 01:15:54.935
this is not really that useful.

01:15:56.076 --> 01:15:57.096
So I don't know,

01:15:57.237 --> 01:15:58.497
it could just be a sort of

01:15:59.860 --> 01:16:02.061
There could be a bias in the sample

01:16:02.101 --> 01:16:02.402
here.

01:16:02.782 --> 01:16:03.563
Like, for instance,

01:16:03.603 --> 01:16:04.743
this could have been posted.

01:16:05.264 --> 01:16:07.243
I did see it being posted on Mastodon,

01:16:07.264 --> 01:16:09.185
which means, you know,

01:16:09.265 --> 01:16:11.405
it's kind of people on Mastodon don't like

01:16:11.506 --> 01:16:11.907
AI.

01:16:12.146 --> 01:16:14.467
So that definitely could have skewed the

01:16:14.488 --> 01:16:15.328
results a little bit.

01:16:15.427 --> 01:16:19.289
But I think it's still an interesting

01:16:19.449 --> 01:16:20.511
idea, right,

01:16:20.591 --> 01:16:22.390
to see and to have a poll go

01:16:22.411 --> 01:16:22.952
out like that.

01:16:23.412 --> 01:16:24.853
It would have been interesting to see if,

01:16:25.092 --> 01:16:25.453
you know,

01:16:26.248 --> 01:16:27.748
where a lot of these votes were coming

01:16:27.788 --> 01:16:30.970
from and how this was published,

01:16:31.270 --> 01:16:32.729
because I think that could have had a

01:16:32.789 --> 01:16:36.970
pretty big impact on the results of this

01:16:37.011 --> 01:16:37.350
poll.

01:16:38.431 --> 01:16:39.832
But I think, you know,

01:16:39.891 --> 01:16:42.412
ninety percent is kind of conclusive,

01:16:42.471 --> 01:16:42.872
I guess.

01:16:43.172 --> 01:16:45.313
So, yeah,

01:16:45.512 --> 01:16:47.493
I'm not really not really that surprised

01:16:47.533 --> 01:16:49.413
by ninety percent being against it.

01:16:49.453 --> 01:16:49.913
What about you?

01:16:51.993 --> 01:16:52.293
Yeah, no,

01:16:52.333 --> 01:16:53.375
I think that's a really good point,

01:16:53.734 --> 01:16:54.774
the selection bias.

01:16:55.614 --> 01:16:56.055
I will say,

01:16:56.136 --> 01:16:58.315
ninety percent surprises me a little bit

01:16:58.416 --> 01:17:00.417
because I know DuckDuckGo is one of those

01:17:00.457 --> 01:17:04.399
companies that has integrated A.I.

01:17:04.498 --> 01:17:05.118
a little bit.

01:17:05.998 --> 01:17:07.140
I think they even have their own like

01:17:07.260 --> 01:17:07.539
A.I.

01:17:07.579 --> 01:17:09.180
proxy and.

01:17:11.301 --> 01:17:11.740
I think it's.

01:17:14.341 --> 01:17:15.143
Yeah, I mean,

01:17:15.182 --> 01:17:16.882
I think that's a really interesting point

01:17:16.922 --> 01:17:17.804
for sure, but.

01:17:20.255 --> 01:17:21.515
I mean, my personal opinions,

01:17:22.837 --> 01:17:23.697
I definitely like...

01:17:24.238 --> 01:17:25.878
We mentioned this on a previous episode.

01:17:25.979 --> 01:17:29.680
I like the point that Em made a

01:17:29.701 --> 01:17:32.823
few weeks ago about AI in its current

01:17:32.842 --> 01:17:35.824
form cannot be private because it scrapes

01:17:35.885 --> 01:17:38.787
up so much user data from people who

01:17:38.827 --> 01:17:39.988
probably didn't consent.

01:17:40.728 --> 01:17:47.932
And I think... This is one of the...

01:17:50.668 --> 01:17:54.212
This is one of the... Sorry,

01:17:54.231 --> 01:17:55.132
I'm trying to put my thoughts in order.

01:17:55.594 --> 01:17:57.095
This is a thing that I've said before

01:17:57.314 --> 01:17:57.494
is...

01:17:58.981 --> 01:18:00.622
I think there's certain things about AI

01:18:00.662 --> 01:18:02.502
that are technical problems in the sense

01:18:02.523 --> 01:18:03.444
that they can be solved.

01:18:04.823 --> 01:18:05.224
Can be.

01:18:05.404 --> 01:18:05.805
Will they?

01:18:05.925 --> 01:18:07.024
I don't know, but they can be.

01:18:07.085 --> 01:18:08.926
Things like the energy usage.

01:18:09.065 --> 01:18:11.146
I think that in time,

01:18:11.327 --> 01:18:13.046
I think AI will become more energy

01:18:13.067 --> 01:18:14.528
efficient simply because the financial

01:18:14.568 --> 01:18:17.288
incentive is there to make it cost less

01:18:17.328 --> 01:18:21.430
money or maybe find more sustainable ways

01:18:21.449 --> 01:18:22.970
to power that energy.

01:18:23.546 --> 01:18:23.806
Um,

01:18:23.886 --> 01:18:25.447
I wish they would open up more solar

01:18:25.466 --> 01:18:27.287
farms instead of nuclear plants,

01:18:27.328 --> 01:18:28.127
but I don't know.

01:18:28.307 --> 01:18:28.608
I digress.

01:18:28.627 --> 01:18:30.908
Um, but then I think there's,

01:18:31.087 --> 01:18:33.189
there's the much harder problems that I'm

01:18:33.208 --> 01:18:34.488
not sure if we'll ever be able to

01:18:34.509 --> 01:18:34.908
tackle,

01:18:34.969 --> 01:18:36.889
which are things like compensating the

01:18:36.908 --> 01:18:38.010
people for the data collected,

01:18:38.109 --> 01:18:40.090
the training sets, things of that nature.

01:18:40.270 --> 01:18:43.270
And I think those are, yeah,

01:18:43.671 --> 01:18:44.770
I think those are the things that are,

01:18:45.030 --> 01:18:45.411
like I said,

01:18:45.430 --> 01:18:47.511
going to be harder to solve if solvable

01:18:47.650 --> 01:18:48.070
at all.

01:18:48.271 --> 01:18:50.612
And, um, yeah, I think, um,

01:18:52.030 --> 01:18:52.751
Not to be pedantic,

01:18:52.770 --> 01:18:54.171
but I know there's also a really good

01:18:54.192 --> 01:18:55.532
discussion to be made about the difference

01:18:55.572 --> 01:18:55.931
between,

01:18:56.891 --> 01:18:58.512
because AI is just such a blanket term

01:18:58.533 --> 01:18:59.432
that we're applying to everything

01:18:59.472 --> 01:18:59.792
nowadays.

01:18:59.832 --> 01:19:02.314
And I think there's useful types of AI,

01:19:02.413 --> 01:19:03.914
like machine learning that's being used

01:19:03.954 --> 01:19:05.454
for medical research and stuff like that,

01:19:05.935 --> 01:19:12.697
versus the generative AI that's drying up

01:19:12.716 --> 01:19:14.738
an entire lake just to make everybody on

01:19:14.778 --> 01:19:16.198
Facebook look like Studio Ghibli.

01:19:16.898 --> 01:19:18.618
And yeah,

01:19:18.998 --> 01:19:21.619
I think it's really unfortunate that,

01:19:23.591 --> 01:19:23.912
I don't know.

01:19:23.931 --> 01:19:25.212
It's just really unfortunate.

01:19:25.573 --> 01:19:28.073
And also, as a creative type myself,

01:19:28.113 --> 01:19:31.054
I'm really annoyed that AI is taking away

01:19:31.113 --> 01:19:32.034
all the fun jobs,

01:19:32.055 --> 01:19:34.935
like making music and writing stories and

01:19:35.355 --> 01:19:36.115
making videos,

01:19:36.315 --> 01:19:38.896
and instead of taking away the crap jobs

01:19:38.936 --> 01:19:40.077
that nobody wants to do.

01:19:41.978 --> 01:19:42.537
Yeah, it's...

01:19:43.698 --> 01:19:44.399
It's really unfortunate.

01:19:44.418 --> 01:19:45.340
I think it's one of those things that

01:19:45.380 --> 01:19:48.423
could be good, but probably,

01:19:48.743 --> 01:19:50.105
it definitely is not right now.

01:19:50.345 --> 01:19:52.148
And I don't know if we'll ever address

01:19:52.167 --> 01:19:53.909
those difficult questions for sure,

01:19:54.170 --> 01:19:56.332
but that's really unfortunate.

01:19:56.432 --> 01:19:56.632
Yeah,

01:19:56.832 --> 01:19:58.175
I think one thing to think about when

01:19:58.194 --> 01:19:59.676
it comes to this AI stuff is

01:20:00.461 --> 01:20:01.881
I'm not really sure if it could be

01:20:01.921 --> 01:20:03.622
done in an ethical way, right?

01:20:03.643 --> 01:20:05.703
Because basically the whole, like,

01:20:05.724 --> 01:20:06.524
I don't know if you saw,

01:20:06.564 --> 01:20:08.484
there was like an article that I saw

01:20:08.524 --> 01:20:12.948
about Sam Altman and he was saying if

01:20:12.988 --> 01:20:15.288
there was a stop to the wholesale scraping

01:20:15.309 --> 01:20:16.850
of the internet for AI training,

01:20:16.949 --> 01:20:19.390
then these AI companies literally wouldn't

01:20:19.411 --> 01:20:21.872
be able to exist because the data that's

01:20:21.932 --> 01:20:23.713
required to train these models is

01:20:24.173 --> 01:20:26.734
basically done by scraping the entire

01:20:26.975 --> 01:20:27.775
network

01:20:28.942 --> 01:20:32.283
entire internet right um so you know i

01:20:32.302 --> 01:20:35.043
don't think that like i think people think

01:20:35.064 --> 01:20:37.005
about like their personal privacy like i'm

01:20:37.045 --> 01:20:38.725
sure i could use like an ai model

01:20:39.145 --> 01:20:41.046
locally on my computer that wouldn't be

01:20:41.087 --> 01:20:42.807
sending information to a third-party

01:20:42.847 --> 01:20:45.689
company but the model itself was trained

01:20:45.828 --> 01:20:48.449
off non-consensual like

01:20:49.377 --> 01:20:51.418
scraping of people's information and,

01:20:51.960 --> 01:20:52.420
and data.

01:20:52.479 --> 01:20:53.761
And when you train that model,

01:20:54.220 --> 01:20:55.362
you're basically, you know,

01:20:55.782 --> 01:20:57.722
encapsulating an entire, you know,

01:20:57.802 --> 01:21:00.864
section of the web into a model.

01:21:00.925 --> 01:21:01.164
Right.

01:21:01.265 --> 01:21:03.306
And that's kind of the antithesis of

01:21:03.367 --> 01:21:04.067
privacy, right?

01:21:04.087 --> 01:21:06.148
Because if you, let's say you,

01:21:06.427 --> 01:21:08.529
you deleted an article that you wrote

01:21:08.710 --> 01:21:10.490
about something that could have been

01:21:10.591 --> 01:21:13.233
scraped and put inside this model and,

01:21:13.313 --> 01:21:15.434
you know, you're basically, uh,

01:21:17.118 --> 01:21:18.699
storing this information forever.

01:21:19.560 --> 01:21:20.079
And, you know,

01:21:20.180 --> 01:21:22.220
it's also storing and scraping a lot of

01:21:22.301 --> 01:21:23.702
personal information as well.

01:21:24.021 --> 01:21:26.182
So, you know, it's,

01:21:27.184 --> 01:21:28.243
it's kind of problematic.

01:21:28.363 --> 01:21:33.466
I think there's not really any good way

01:21:33.506 --> 01:21:34.027
to do this.

01:21:34.087 --> 01:21:35.167
Like I'm sure maybe this,

01:21:35.466 --> 01:21:37.368
there's a possibility that someone's made

01:21:37.408 --> 01:21:39.029
an AI model based on only

01:21:40.574 --> 01:21:42.817
publicly available and consensual data,

01:21:42.877 --> 01:21:44.078
but, um,

01:21:44.158 --> 01:21:45.578
I'm sure it's not very good and as

01:21:45.698 --> 01:21:47.340
useful as the ones that have scraped the

01:21:47.359 --> 01:21:48.079
entire internet.

01:21:48.140 --> 01:21:48.461
Right.

01:21:48.761 --> 01:21:50.421
Um, so, you know,

01:21:50.521 --> 01:21:53.184
I think I'm not even certain that,

01:21:53.283 --> 01:21:53.503
you know,

01:21:53.543 --> 01:21:56.907
if we were able to use completely

01:21:56.947 --> 01:21:59.689
consensual data and also have, you know,

01:21:59.809 --> 01:22:00.789
use renewable energy,

01:22:01.289 --> 01:22:03.030
I think it's just kind of a waste

01:22:03.110 --> 01:22:04.372
of electricity as well.

01:22:04.471 --> 01:22:06.894
Like electricity is not infinite.

01:22:06.913 --> 01:22:08.515
Like it has an impact on the grid,

01:22:09.216 --> 01:22:09.355
um,

01:22:10.744 --> 01:22:12.565
just delivering electricity to people is

01:22:12.685 --> 01:22:13.686
producing carbon.

01:22:14.346 --> 01:22:15.688
So I don't know.

01:22:15.847 --> 01:22:17.368
I don't think that it's,

01:22:19.730 --> 01:22:22.412
I guess maybe our opinions differ slightly

01:22:22.452 --> 01:22:24.453
on this, but I think, yeah,

01:22:24.474 --> 01:22:26.774
there's definitely, in my opinion,

01:22:26.814 --> 01:22:29.516
not really any ethical way to do it

01:22:29.657 --> 01:22:33.719
that respects everybody in the process.

01:22:35.079 --> 01:22:35.961
That's just my opinion.

01:22:37.525 --> 01:22:37.645
No,

01:22:37.746 --> 01:22:38.827
and I kind of agree with you because

01:22:39.067 --> 01:22:41.528
that was something that I said when I

01:22:41.568 --> 01:22:43.608
first mentioned this is like maybe,

01:22:44.868 --> 01:22:46.149
and that's why I say those like less

01:22:46.189 --> 01:22:47.689
technical problems I think are harder to

01:22:47.750 --> 01:22:48.890
solve because like you were saying,

01:22:49.390 --> 01:22:50.230
maybe we could,

01:22:50.671 --> 01:22:53.152
like I know Creative Commons is working on

01:22:53.712 --> 01:22:55.412
a license that basically says, yes,

01:22:55.493 --> 01:22:57.173
I'm okay with AI training on this data.

01:22:58.014 --> 01:22:59.774
But what if so few people opt into

01:22:59.814 --> 01:23:00.055
that,

01:23:00.175 --> 01:23:00.414
that

01:23:01.461 --> 01:23:03.483
it can't create a good AI model.

01:23:03.703 --> 01:23:06.605
And so there is no ethical way to,

01:23:06.786 --> 01:23:07.305
to do that.

01:23:07.426 --> 01:23:09.528
And, you know, you mentioned the,

01:23:10.929 --> 01:23:11.989
the idea of like,

01:23:13.792 --> 01:23:15.033
or maybe I just heard you,

01:23:15.172 --> 01:23:16.113
you say this, but like,

01:23:17.715 --> 01:23:19.417
we can't even like really remove training

01:23:19.457 --> 01:23:19.737
data.

01:23:19.896 --> 01:23:20.677
You know, we can't,

01:23:22.037 --> 01:23:23.478
like we could remove it from the next

01:23:23.557 --> 01:23:25.618
iteration when they run the AI and update

01:23:25.658 --> 01:23:25.759
it,

01:23:26.279 --> 01:23:28.260
but we can't really reliably say that

01:23:28.300 --> 01:23:28.880
like, oh,

01:23:29.420 --> 01:23:30.980
I want this data removed from the model.

01:23:31.820 --> 01:23:33.221
And because of that,

01:23:33.362 --> 01:23:34.742
it kind of doesn't respect like the right

01:23:34.761 --> 01:23:35.341
to be forgotten,

01:23:35.362 --> 01:23:37.122
which to me is personally is a really

01:23:37.162 --> 01:23:40.444
big deal to me because I think one

01:23:40.463 --> 01:23:41.765
of the most harmful things about the

01:23:41.805 --> 01:23:43.064
permanent digital record that we have

01:23:43.105 --> 01:23:43.926
nowadays is that

01:23:44.881 --> 01:23:46.362
people have almost lost their ability to

01:23:46.402 --> 01:23:46.782
grow.

01:23:51.262 --> 01:23:53.123
All the older listeners will be with me

01:23:53.163 --> 01:23:53.503
on this one.

01:23:53.644 --> 01:23:55.345
I grew up pre-internet,

01:23:56.685 --> 01:23:57.784
not super pre-internet.

01:23:57.845 --> 01:23:58.985
I think we got internet when I was

01:23:59.086 --> 01:23:59.685
in my teens,

01:23:59.765 --> 01:24:03.546
but it definitely wasn't like it is now.

01:24:03.606 --> 01:24:04.967
Social media was not a thing until I

01:24:04.988 --> 01:24:05.707
was in high school.

01:24:06.667 --> 01:24:07.809
I think Facebook came out when I was

01:24:07.828 --> 01:24:08.368
in college.

01:24:08.569 --> 01:24:10.869
So I grew up in a world where

01:24:12.033 --> 01:24:13.034
You say dumb things.

01:24:13.694 --> 01:24:14.675
You do dumb things.

01:24:16.136 --> 01:24:17.076
You get in trouble for that,

01:24:17.596 --> 01:24:18.377
but then you grow,

01:24:18.476 --> 01:24:19.898
and you learn not to do those dumb

01:24:19.917 --> 01:24:20.238
things.

01:24:20.877 --> 01:24:23.179
And I don't want to sound too political,

01:24:23.198 --> 01:24:24.399
but I feel like we're in a world

01:24:24.439 --> 01:24:26.261
now where you say something dumb,

01:24:26.980 --> 01:24:29.421
and no matter how long ago it was,

01:24:30.061 --> 01:24:30.842
it lives there.

01:24:31.443 --> 01:24:32.764
And so somebody will go like,

01:24:33.104 --> 01:24:34.645
and I guess I'm kind of sort of

01:24:34.666 --> 01:24:35.646
talking about cancel culture,

01:24:35.667 --> 01:24:36.948
but I don't mean it in that context.

01:24:37.448 --> 01:24:38.189
It's, you know,

01:24:38.208 --> 01:24:39.510
you say something and somebody will go dig

01:24:39.529 --> 01:24:40.890
up a tweet from twenty, you know,

01:24:40.951 --> 01:24:41.572
ten years ago.

01:24:42.072 --> 01:24:42.632
And it's like, oh,

01:24:42.693 --> 01:24:44.274
here's something really bad you said.

01:24:44.373 --> 01:24:44.994
And it's like, OK,

01:24:45.055 --> 01:24:46.636
but I don't believe that anymore.

01:24:46.836 --> 01:24:47.256
I've grown.

01:24:47.315 --> 01:24:47.936
I've changed.

01:24:48.016 --> 01:24:48.837
Or, you know, it was a.

01:24:49.417 --> 01:24:51.658
stupid edgy joke that didn't land well or

01:24:51.680 --> 01:24:52.460
whatever it was.

01:24:53.020 --> 01:24:53.680
And it just,

01:24:53.740 --> 01:24:55.082
it doesn't give us that freedom to grow

01:24:55.122 --> 01:24:55.822
and like move on.

01:24:55.962 --> 01:24:57.582
And I feel like that's a concern with

01:24:57.722 --> 01:24:58.143
AI,

01:24:58.543 --> 01:24:59.863
even though it may not necessarily like

01:25:00.164 --> 01:25:01.345
directly trace back to you.

01:25:01.385 --> 01:25:01.645
It's just,

01:25:01.725 --> 01:25:03.926
I don't like that idea of something that

01:25:03.947 --> 01:25:05.568
you don't want out there anymore because

01:25:05.627 --> 01:25:06.528
you don't believe that anymore.

01:25:06.547 --> 01:25:07.149
And you've moved on.

01:25:07.189 --> 01:25:08.689
That's still stuck in the training data.

01:25:08.869 --> 01:25:10.490
So I don't know.

01:25:10.511 --> 01:25:11.390
That's why I said like, maybe,

01:25:12.532 --> 01:25:12.952
maybe those,

01:25:13.032 --> 01:25:15.332
those harder issues don't have a solution.

01:25:15.833 --> 01:25:17.795
Maybe they don't, I don't know, but yeah.

01:25:18.515 --> 01:25:19.195
Yeah,

01:25:19.275 --> 01:25:21.438
I think those are the harder issues to

01:25:21.457 --> 01:25:23.298
tackle if they can be tackled at all.

01:25:23.319 --> 01:25:28.242
All right.

01:25:29.702 --> 01:25:32.463
There was another thread that we had

01:25:32.484 --> 01:25:33.824
written down to take a look at.

01:25:35.786 --> 01:25:37.167
This one, the title says,

01:25:37.306 --> 01:25:38.766
Android recommendations should reflect

01:25:38.828 --> 01:25:39.328
real life,

01:25:39.387 --> 01:25:40.828
not just worst-case threat models.

01:25:41.788 --> 01:25:46.372
And this author... This author...

01:25:49.389 --> 01:25:51.175
basically how would I summarize this?

01:25:51.215 --> 01:25:52.779
Cause this is a, um, very,

01:25:53.561 --> 01:25:54.805
not an overly long post,

01:25:54.826 --> 01:25:56.109
but it's a very detailed post.

01:25:56.470 --> 01:25:57.033
And, uh,

01:25:58.356 --> 01:26:00.097
Basically, they're disappointed that,

01:26:00.118 --> 01:26:02.417
for example, we only recommend graphene.

01:26:02.478 --> 01:26:05.078
We don't really recommend other custom

01:26:05.118 --> 01:26:05.559
ROMs.

01:26:05.618 --> 01:26:08.140
We don't recommend iPhones or anything.

01:26:08.939 --> 01:26:11.201
And he mentions some of the stuff that

01:26:11.240 --> 01:26:12.121
we talked about earlier,

01:26:12.201 --> 01:26:14.462
like some people don't want to buy a

01:26:14.502 --> 01:26:15.762
Pixel because it's from Google.

01:26:15.922 --> 01:26:16.983
And they don't want to buy a Google

01:26:17.002 --> 01:26:17.323
device,

01:26:17.363 --> 01:26:19.384
even if they could buy it secondhand.

01:26:19.404 --> 01:26:21.003
Or Pixels aren't sold in their country.

01:26:21.064 --> 01:26:22.385
Pixels are out of their price range.

01:26:22.425 --> 01:26:24.524
And graphene doesn't offer parental

01:26:24.545 --> 01:26:25.345
control options.

01:26:27.108 --> 01:26:28.770
I definitely have a lot of thoughts on

01:26:28.789 --> 01:26:29.170
this one.

01:26:30.430 --> 01:26:32.752
Do you need a minute to formulate some

01:26:32.792 --> 01:26:35.175
thoughts or do you want to go first?

01:26:35.774 --> 01:26:38.997
No, definitely take it from here.

01:26:39.097 --> 01:26:39.318
Okay.

01:26:39.458 --> 01:26:42.720
So, yeah, I think,

01:26:45.703 --> 01:26:48.345
and I'm going to try to paraphrase

01:26:48.365 --> 01:26:49.367
something I saw Jonah say,

01:26:49.386 --> 01:26:50.768
and I hope I paraphrase this right.

01:26:50.787 --> 01:26:51.649
So I apologize, Jonah,

01:26:51.668 --> 01:26:52.329
if I get this wrong.

01:26:54.645 --> 01:26:57.025
I think with websites like Privacy Guides,

01:26:57.926 --> 01:26:59.646
what we try to do is we're trying

01:26:59.667 --> 01:27:03.007
to give people the ideal answer.

01:27:03.488 --> 01:27:04.689
And I think,

01:27:06.389 --> 01:27:07.750
I will say this is my personal opinion,

01:27:07.789 --> 01:27:09.449
but hopefully I'm getting it kind of close

01:27:09.470 --> 01:27:09.609
here.

01:27:10.551 --> 01:27:11.411
I think there's always going to be

01:27:11.451 --> 01:27:11.930
exceptions.

01:27:13.152 --> 01:27:15.412
So when we say, you know,

01:27:15.452 --> 01:27:16.353
like this person pointed out,

01:27:16.372 --> 01:27:17.653
when we say like, yeah, the best,

01:27:18.493 --> 01:27:19.734
and I went on a little bit of

01:27:19.753 --> 01:27:21.034
a rant about this this morning actually on

01:27:21.055 --> 01:27:21.414
the forum,

01:27:23.552 --> 01:27:24.894
two things can be real,

01:27:24.993 --> 01:27:26.034
even when they're contradictory.

01:27:27.136 --> 01:27:29.797
Graphene can be the best option for

01:27:29.858 --> 01:27:30.798
privacy and security.

01:27:31.939 --> 01:27:33.440
But I think there's also situations where

01:27:33.461 --> 01:27:35.042
it's perfectly valid that you can't or

01:27:35.082 --> 01:27:35.662
won't do that.

01:27:35.703 --> 01:27:36.503
Because again,

01:27:37.003 --> 01:27:38.485
not sold in your country out of your

01:27:38.506 --> 01:27:39.145
price range.

01:27:39.766 --> 01:27:41.908
And I think in those situations,

01:27:41.988 --> 01:27:43.210
it's really important to

01:27:46.057 --> 01:27:46.838
or maybe not in those situations.

01:27:47.139 --> 01:27:47.458
I think,

01:27:48.539 --> 01:27:49.740
I think it's just important to realize

01:27:49.780 --> 01:27:51.721
that, uh, you know, we, we can't possibly,

01:27:51.782 --> 01:27:54.043
especially when we make something that is

01:27:54.264 --> 01:27:55.604
being mass broadcast,

01:27:55.744 --> 01:27:57.726
like a website or like a, uh,

01:27:57.747 --> 01:27:59.207
you know, a podcast like this one,

01:28:00.389 --> 01:28:01.729
there's always going to be exceptions.

01:28:01.770 --> 01:28:03.150
There's always going to be people who have

01:28:03.211 --> 01:28:04.492
perfectly legitimate reasons that they

01:28:04.532 --> 01:28:05.353
can't do something.

01:28:05.932 --> 01:28:07.554
And I think the reason we suggest these

01:28:07.613 --> 01:28:09.074
perfect tools is kind of like the idea

01:28:09.095 --> 01:28:09.355
of like,

01:28:09.395 --> 01:28:10.497
try to get as close to this as

01:28:10.537 --> 01:28:10.976
you can.

01:28:12.078 --> 01:28:12.238
Um,

01:28:14.076 --> 01:28:16.278
But yeah, I mean,

01:28:16.557 --> 01:28:19.239
I think obviously I'm going to defend our

01:28:19.260 --> 01:28:20.280
choices.

01:28:20.801 --> 01:28:22.703
I think there's a reason for the

01:28:22.722 --> 01:28:23.663
suggestions that we make.

01:28:23.724 --> 01:28:26.246
But yeah,

01:28:26.265 --> 01:28:27.747
I guess what I'm trying to get at

01:28:27.806 --> 01:28:30.349
is I understand where this person's coming

01:28:30.368 --> 01:28:30.509
from,

01:28:30.548 --> 01:28:31.970
that there's always going to be exceptions

01:28:32.010 --> 01:28:33.770
to the rule and reasons that somebody

01:28:33.791 --> 01:28:35.893
can't do something specific like that.

01:28:35.993 --> 01:28:38.895
But I don't think that necessarily makes

01:28:38.914 --> 01:28:41.978
the advice we give wrong, personally.

01:28:43.081 --> 01:28:44.320
But yeah,

01:28:44.341 --> 01:28:46.301
we can't possibly cater to every single

01:28:46.362 --> 01:28:47.922
exception, every single threat model.

01:28:49.082 --> 01:28:50.484
We're trying to give advice that we're

01:28:50.543 --> 01:28:52.703
hoping will work for the vast majority of

01:28:52.743 --> 01:28:54.085
people in one way or another.

01:28:54.885 --> 01:28:57.286
And if nothing else,

01:28:57.345 --> 01:28:58.685
I think hopefully it will kind of give

01:28:58.706 --> 01:28:59.966
you a direction to aim towards.

01:29:00.546 --> 01:29:01.426
And so when you can see,

01:29:01.487 --> 01:29:02.868
especially this is something I really like

01:29:02.887 --> 01:29:04.368
about the privacy guides website,

01:29:04.988 --> 01:29:06.590
it tells you why we recommend these tools.

01:29:07.170 --> 01:29:08.449
So when you can see like, oh,

01:29:08.489 --> 01:29:10.350
we recommend pixels because they have very

01:29:10.371 --> 01:29:11.431
good hardware security.

01:29:12.311 --> 01:29:13.573
You know, they have this, they have that.

01:29:14.113 --> 01:29:14.993
And if you say, okay, well,

01:29:15.012 --> 01:29:15.832
I can't get a pixel,

01:29:16.094 --> 01:29:17.814
but what else can I find that checks

01:29:17.854 --> 01:29:19.994
most of these boxes or which of these

01:29:20.015 --> 01:29:22.576
boxes can I look at that are important

01:29:22.595 --> 01:29:22.935
to me?

01:29:22.975 --> 01:29:24.296
And I can go find something that checks

01:29:24.337 --> 01:29:25.016
those boxes.

01:29:26.377 --> 01:29:26.537
So.

01:29:28.037 --> 01:29:30.020
Yeah, I think that's where I land.

01:29:30.041 --> 01:29:31.162
This was a very popular post.

01:29:31.203 --> 01:29:32.664
It's got a hundred and fifty seven

01:29:32.704 --> 01:29:33.086
replies.

01:29:33.185 --> 01:29:36.310
Holy cow.

01:29:36.390 --> 01:29:37.672
Was there anything you wanted to add to

01:29:37.712 --> 01:29:37.853
that?

01:29:38.886 --> 01:29:40.268
I think this kind of goes back to

01:29:40.427 --> 01:29:42.009
some of the discussion that we had about

01:29:42.048 --> 01:29:42.630
like, you know,

01:29:42.670 --> 01:29:43.952
you were saying like privacy is a

01:29:44.011 --> 01:29:44.471
privilege,

01:29:44.511 --> 01:29:46.434
like people who have money can afford

01:29:46.453 --> 01:29:46.954
these things.

01:29:49.176 --> 01:29:49.997
I think, yeah,

01:29:50.278 --> 01:29:52.640
it is kind of interesting and important to

01:29:52.680 --> 01:29:53.902
at least discuss.

01:29:54.443 --> 01:29:56.225
I think that's like a good purpose of

01:29:56.265 --> 01:29:57.706
the forum in this case, right?

01:29:58.167 --> 01:30:00.069
Like people can discuss these issues.

01:30:00.881 --> 01:30:03.546
less perfect tools in a place where,

01:30:03.567 --> 01:30:03.828
you know,

01:30:03.868 --> 01:30:06.412
people can be critical and talk about it.

01:30:06.432 --> 01:30:08.777
But I think, you know, the

01:30:12.439 --> 01:30:14.038
The recommendations on the website are

01:30:14.059 --> 01:30:14.880
kind of like, you know,

01:30:14.920 --> 01:30:16.760
meant to be like the most ideal ones.

01:30:17.220 --> 01:30:19.641
I know I've certainly used the forum like

01:30:19.681 --> 01:30:21.082
I've been interested in another tool and

01:30:21.122 --> 01:30:22.443
I've been like, huh,

01:30:22.523 --> 01:30:23.884
I wonder what the people in the privacy

01:30:23.904 --> 01:30:25.363
guides forum said about it because,

01:30:25.384 --> 01:30:25.885
you know,

01:30:25.904 --> 01:30:28.126
they probably looked into it pretty hard.

01:30:28.166 --> 01:30:28.386
You know,

01:30:28.506 --> 01:30:30.846
people are scrutinizing things a lot.

01:30:32.287 --> 01:30:34.490
So I think just because something isn't

01:30:34.551 --> 01:30:36.833
listed on the recommendations doesn't mean

01:30:36.873 --> 01:30:38.735
that it's not something you can't use.

01:30:39.596 --> 01:30:40.057
For instance,

01:30:40.078 --> 01:30:41.720
I use a bunch of stuff that's not

01:30:41.760 --> 01:30:42.980
recommended by the website.

01:30:43.862 --> 01:30:45.623
Doesn't mean that it's the wrong option.

01:30:45.704 --> 01:30:48.328
It just depends on your specific use case,

01:30:48.387 --> 01:30:48.608
right?

01:30:50.346 --> 01:30:51.587
So yeah,

01:30:51.828 --> 01:30:54.430
I agree with what you were saying there.

01:30:54.811 --> 01:30:55.511
But yeah,

01:30:55.592 --> 01:30:57.954
I think this is definitely an interesting

01:30:57.994 --> 01:30:59.417
forum to have a read.

01:31:00.597 --> 01:31:02.819
I'm not sure if I agree entirely with

01:31:02.880 --> 01:31:04.020
what this person is saying.

01:31:05.802 --> 01:31:08.885
I think stuff like headphone jacks and

01:31:09.364 --> 01:31:13.167
physical SIM slots and SD card slots are

01:31:14.266 --> 01:31:16.108
somewhat novelties.

01:31:16.488 --> 01:31:19.149
I find that they're not super important.

01:31:19.310 --> 01:31:21.831
I think the most important thing should be

01:31:24.072 --> 01:31:27.094
the security of the device if you can.

01:31:28.434 --> 01:31:30.835
So even if there was a cheaper device

01:31:30.854 --> 01:31:31.015
that

01:31:32.984 --> 01:31:35.604
could run something that is more private

01:31:35.865 --> 01:31:37.225
than stock Android.

01:31:37.265 --> 01:31:38.306
I think that would be better.

01:31:40.728 --> 01:31:41.128
But yeah,

01:31:41.149 --> 01:31:42.509
it's kind of unfortunate that like

01:31:43.010 --> 01:31:43.909
Fairphone has,

01:31:44.090 --> 01:31:46.211
has got devices that they sell,

01:31:47.112 --> 01:31:49.412
but they're also pretty expensive and

01:31:49.432 --> 01:31:50.854
they're only available in Europe.

01:31:50.894 --> 01:31:52.194
So it kind of limits the,

01:31:53.215 --> 01:31:54.355
the availability of that.

01:31:54.435 --> 01:31:56.237
And they don't seem to take security as

01:31:56.277 --> 01:31:57.738
seriously as the graphing people.

01:31:58.783 --> 01:32:00.323
So, yeah, I don't know.

01:32:00.344 --> 01:32:02.466
It's kind of an unfortunate circumstance,

01:32:02.506 --> 01:32:03.006
I guess.

01:32:05.046 --> 01:32:05.507
I mean, I...

01:32:07.289 --> 01:32:11.190
I don't use an Android device daily.

01:32:11.350 --> 01:32:12.252
I do have one,

01:32:12.292 --> 01:32:15.113
but I just prefer an iPhone just because,

01:32:15.153 --> 01:32:16.832
you know, it just works best for me.

01:32:16.872 --> 01:32:18.394
It's not recommended on the website,

01:32:18.434 --> 01:32:21.835
but it's something you can do instead.

01:32:21.954 --> 01:32:22.875
And I don't know,

01:32:23.114 --> 01:32:25.775
I think people need to make decisions for

01:32:25.796 --> 01:32:28.577
their circumstances and you don't have to

01:32:28.657 --> 01:32:31.118
a hundred percent follow everything that

01:32:32.177 --> 01:32:32.979
we recommend.

01:32:34.279 --> 01:32:35.479
It's kind of up to you to make

01:32:35.520 --> 01:32:36.739
up your own mind on things.

01:32:39.733 --> 01:32:44.578
yeah for sure yeah i don't think i

01:32:44.637 --> 01:32:49.842
have anything to add to that so i

01:32:49.863 --> 01:32:51.743
guess we'll hop into answering questions

01:32:51.783 --> 01:32:53.605
now um unfortunately it looks like we

01:32:53.626 --> 01:32:56.228
didn't get any questions on the forum

01:32:56.269 --> 01:32:58.650
thread uh i know we kind of

01:33:00.167 --> 01:33:00.368
We've, uh,

01:33:00.568 --> 01:33:01.628
some weeks we kind of wait a little

01:33:01.649 --> 01:33:02.229
bit longer than,

01:33:02.448 --> 01:33:03.930
than others to pick headline stories,

01:33:03.970 --> 01:33:05.011
just to see if there's anything

01:33:05.091 --> 01:33:06.872
particularly, um,

01:33:06.952 --> 01:33:08.472
obvious that jumps out at us as like,

01:33:08.552 --> 01:33:08.733
oh,

01:33:08.752 --> 01:33:09.833
this should definitely be the headline

01:33:09.854 --> 01:33:10.213
story.

01:33:10.533 --> 01:33:12.395
Um, and I don't know if, uh,

01:33:12.515 --> 01:33:13.775
this week people just didn't have enough

01:33:13.815 --> 01:33:17.118
time or, or what, but yeah,

01:33:17.137 --> 01:33:18.457
it looks like there's not too much there,

01:33:18.618 --> 01:33:22.581
but let's go ahead and address some of

01:33:22.621 --> 01:33:24.481
the questions in the chat here.

01:33:26.073 --> 01:33:27.234
And let's see.

01:33:28.695 --> 01:33:30.657
Excuse me.

01:33:30.716 --> 01:33:32.137
I guess I'll take this one.

01:33:32.297 --> 01:33:34.059
This person I don't think has a display

01:33:34.099 --> 01:33:34.298
name.

01:33:34.338 --> 01:33:36.199
That or my computer is not showing it.

01:33:37.081 --> 01:33:40.802
But I guess we'll say anonymous.

01:33:41.184 --> 01:33:42.323
So this is actually in regard to a

01:33:42.363 --> 01:33:43.404
question from last week.

01:33:43.845 --> 01:33:45.105
They asked if I had a chance to

01:33:45.145 --> 01:33:46.546
review the OPSEC Bible.

01:33:46.627 --> 01:33:47.306
So last week,

01:33:47.707 --> 01:33:49.368
somebody asked about this website called

01:33:49.389 --> 01:33:50.168
the OPSEC Bible.

01:33:52.469 --> 01:33:53.309
I took a look at it.

01:33:54.869 --> 01:33:55.649
I don't know if Jonah did.

01:33:55.770 --> 01:33:56.631
Jonah's really busy.

01:33:57.411 --> 01:33:58.511
He may or may not have.

01:34:02.712 --> 01:34:04.354
I don't really feel like the website was

01:34:04.394 --> 01:34:04.734
for me.

01:34:05.453 --> 01:34:06.574
I kind of want to reiterate what I

01:34:06.614 --> 01:34:08.595
said when you first asked about this

01:34:08.615 --> 01:34:09.036
website,

01:34:09.055 --> 01:34:15.979
which is I think it's great that there's

01:34:16.038 --> 01:34:18.539
different levels of things that cater to

01:34:18.579 --> 01:34:19.279
different people.

01:34:20.631 --> 01:34:22.472
Because I think there's some people that

01:34:23.734 --> 01:34:25.335
when you go up to them and say,

01:34:26.515 --> 01:34:27.417
you have to use Graphene,

01:34:27.457 --> 01:34:28.438
you have to use SimpleX,

01:34:28.457 --> 01:34:29.519
you have to use Cubes,

01:34:30.338 --> 01:34:31.359
they're just going to stop listening.

01:34:32.220 --> 01:34:33.240
And that may be unfortunate.

01:34:33.421 --> 01:34:36.404
That may not be in their best interest.

01:34:36.423 --> 01:34:37.283
That may be a mistake.

01:34:38.085 --> 01:34:39.105
But that is what they're going to do,

01:34:39.145 --> 01:34:40.747
is they're going to stop listening and

01:34:40.787 --> 01:34:41.247
walk away.

01:34:41.967 --> 01:34:44.590
And I think that's...

01:34:46.689 --> 01:34:48.354
That's kind of where some other projects

01:34:48.373 --> 01:34:50.259
come in to try and try to

01:34:51.470 --> 01:34:52.591
kind of make it a little bit easier

01:34:52.612 --> 01:34:54.153
for people to get started on privacy.

01:34:54.252 --> 01:34:56.014
And I think some people, most people,

01:34:56.073 --> 01:34:58.375
I hope, but I think some people will,

01:34:58.454 --> 01:34:59.615
once they start getting into privacy,

01:34:59.655 --> 01:35:00.756
they'll realize like, Oh,

01:35:00.836 --> 01:35:02.697
this is actually a lot more achievable

01:35:02.716 --> 01:35:03.217
than it sounds.

01:35:03.278 --> 01:35:04.637
And I can go, you know,

01:35:04.658 --> 01:35:05.859
I talked about threat models earlier.

01:35:05.918 --> 01:35:07.380
Like I'm a big fan of going above

01:35:07.399 --> 01:35:07.819
and beyond.

01:35:07.920 --> 01:35:09.201
If you can, a threat model,

01:35:09.701 --> 01:35:10.942
in my opinion is kind of more of

01:35:11.301 --> 01:35:11.761
a minimum,

01:35:11.943 --> 01:35:13.804
like do this minimum to keep yourself

01:35:13.823 --> 01:35:14.123
safe,

01:35:14.743 --> 01:35:16.185
but feel free to go past that if

01:35:16.225 --> 01:35:17.345
you want to.

01:35:17.506 --> 01:35:18.065
And, um,

01:35:19.028 --> 01:35:20.507
I think it's great for people who want

01:35:20.547 --> 01:35:22.828
to go past that and want to learn

01:35:22.849 --> 01:35:24.029
how to do some of the more advanced

01:35:24.050 --> 01:35:26.369
stuff and use some of the more secure

01:35:26.430 --> 01:35:28.791
options out there for whatever reason.

01:35:29.011 --> 01:35:31.471
And so I don't really have an issue

01:35:31.511 --> 01:35:35.653
with sites that push the more hardcore

01:35:35.672 --> 01:35:40.034
things, but I, I don't know.

01:35:40.215 --> 01:35:40.694
I just,

01:35:40.755 --> 01:35:41.635
I don't think it was for me.

01:35:42.715 --> 01:35:43.975
So thanks for bringing it to our

01:35:44.176 --> 01:35:44.935
attention, I guess.

01:35:45.036 --> 01:35:46.235
But yeah, that was,

01:35:47.176 --> 01:35:48.037
that was my thought on that one.

01:35:49.427 --> 01:35:50.108
I don't know.

01:35:50.188 --> 01:35:51.229
I think I may have shared that one

01:35:51.248 --> 01:35:51.609
in the chat.

01:35:51.628 --> 01:35:52.869
Did you check that one out, Jordan,

01:35:52.909 --> 01:35:53.470
or no thoughts?

01:35:55.372 --> 01:35:55.712
Yeah.

01:35:56.091 --> 01:35:57.712
I don't really have any thoughts on it.

01:35:57.832 --> 01:35:59.274
I think you covered it pretty well.

01:36:00.774 --> 01:36:02.615
I think we need to go super in-depth.

01:36:04.398 --> 01:36:05.997
that website but i think it's definitely

01:36:06.078 --> 01:36:10.099
good to use multiple sources uh for

01:36:10.118 --> 01:36:12.619
finding your information right like if we

01:36:12.680 --> 01:36:15.140
recommend something don't just take that

01:36:15.220 --> 01:36:17.261
as the truth right you should also

01:36:17.381 --> 01:36:18.701
investigate other people who are

01:36:18.740 --> 01:36:21.122
recommending different things see what

01:36:21.162 --> 01:36:24.381
they say as well um so you know

01:36:24.421 --> 01:36:26.182
maybe this website could be useful as

01:36:26.203 --> 01:36:27.743
another resource to check what

01:36:29.344 --> 01:36:30.783
they say about certain things.

01:36:30.823 --> 01:36:32.225
And then you can come up with your

01:36:32.324 --> 01:36:33.545
own opinion, I guess.

01:36:34.265 --> 01:36:36.166
Um, but you know,

01:36:36.546 --> 01:36:38.525
privacy guides has a specific way of doing

01:36:38.565 --> 01:36:38.926
things.

01:36:39.006 --> 01:36:40.846
We're going to choose specific tools based

01:36:40.947 --> 01:36:42.766
on specific criteria.

01:36:42.886 --> 01:36:46.228
So it kind of is going to differ

01:36:46.408 --> 01:36:49.408
to what other people recommend and that's

01:36:49.429 --> 01:36:49.748
fine.

01:36:49.889 --> 01:36:51.770
Everyone has their own recommendations and

01:36:51.789 --> 01:36:53.109
what they recommend.

01:36:53.210 --> 01:36:54.770
So I think it's good.

01:36:54.970 --> 01:36:57.371
More diverse, uh, information is better.

01:37:00.511 --> 01:37:01.972
For sure.

01:37:02.033 --> 01:37:05.095
All right, our next question came from JS,

01:37:05.315 --> 01:37:07.358
who asked about DuckDuckGo's AI.

01:37:09.619 --> 01:37:10.100
You said,

01:37:10.220 --> 01:37:12.082
I hear people complain about DuckDuckAI as

01:37:12.101 --> 01:37:13.643
a proxy because it just queries the

01:37:13.682 --> 01:37:14.724
respective companies,

01:37:16.466 --> 01:37:17.246
which in this context,

01:37:17.305 --> 01:37:19.247
I think he means like a chat GPT,

01:37:19.467 --> 01:37:20.309
Anthropic, whoever.

01:37:21.387 --> 01:37:21.868
And you say,

01:37:22.309 --> 01:37:23.430
isn't this the same thing that private

01:37:23.449 --> 01:37:24.251
search engines do?

01:37:24.610 --> 01:37:25.631
From privacy guides, quote,

01:37:25.671 --> 01:37:27.132
DuckDuckGo does not log your searches for

01:37:27.172 --> 01:37:28.833
product improvement purposes,

01:37:28.854 --> 01:37:30.695
or does log your searches,

01:37:31.277 --> 01:37:32.658
but not your IP address or any other

01:37:32.698 --> 01:37:33.719
PII.

01:37:33.958 --> 01:37:37.721
Yes, this is actually...

01:37:39.359 --> 01:37:39.680
I don't know.

01:37:39.720 --> 01:37:40.081
Personally,

01:37:40.541 --> 01:37:42.823
I use BraveSearch because I feel the same

01:37:42.842 --> 01:37:43.082
way.

01:37:43.463 --> 01:37:45.725
DuckDuckGo itself is just a proxy.

01:37:46.546 --> 01:37:48.287
I think most of these meta search engines

01:37:48.368 --> 01:37:50.430
do technically draw from multiple sources,

01:37:50.470 --> 01:37:52.430
but they usually primarily heavily draw

01:37:52.452 --> 01:37:53.152
from one source.

01:37:53.613 --> 01:37:55.474
So DuckDuckGo mostly draws from Bing.

01:37:56.314 --> 01:37:57.676
StartPage is mostly Google.

01:37:58.417 --> 01:37:58.676
And...

01:38:00.033 --> 01:38:01.375
I think there's a couple others that I'm

01:38:01.414 --> 01:38:01.774
forgetting.

01:38:01.835 --> 01:38:03.275
But there are a handful,

01:38:03.315 --> 01:38:04.877
like I think Kaji or Kagi,

01:38:04.896 --> 01:38:05.596
however you pronounce it,

01:38:05.677 --> 01:38:09.239
I think they mostly have their own index

01:38:09.960 --> 01:38:10.500
these days.

01:38:11.381 --> 01:38:13.402
Brave mostly has their own index.

01:38:13.421 --> 01:38:15.863
And I think Mojik is the other one

01:38:16.623 --> 01:38:18.005
that they all kind of have their own

01:38:18.085 --> 01:38:18.444
index.

01:38:18.484 --> 01:38:20.105
So yeah, personally,

01:38:20.646 --> 01:38:22.207
I like to use those or I like

01:38:22.228 --> 01:38:24.088
to use Brave just because it has its

01:38:24.149 --> 01:38:24.588
own index.

01:38:24.628 --> 01:38:25.909
I'm already using the Brave browser.

01:38:26.010 --> 01:38:27.411
I think they do a pretty good job.

01:38:28.981 --> 01:38:30.162
I feel like I'm also just,

01:38:32.863 --> 01:38:34.243
I feel like maybe I just,

01:38:34.724 --> 01:38:36.005
maybe it's something about me and knowing

01:38:36.024 --> 01:38:37.524
how to use search engines the right way,

01:38:37.585 --> 01:38:38.426
quote unquote, the right way.

01:38:38.485 --> 01:38:40.867
But because I hear some people will get

01:38:40.926 --> 01:38:42.407
off of Google and they'll switch to like

01:38:42.426 --> 01:38:43.627
DuckDuckGo or StartPage and they'll be

01:38:43.667 --> 01:38:44.228
like, oh,

01:38:44.747 --> 01:38:46.429
the results just aren't the same to which

01:38:46.668 --> 01:38:47.729
number one, yeah,

01:38:47.788 --> 01:38:49.149
Google is personalizing your results

01:38:49.170 --> 01:38:50.029
because they're stalking you.

01:38:50.470 --> 01:38:51.610
But number two, I mean, I just,

01:38:51.751 --> 01:38:53.131
I personally have never had that issue.

01:38:53.150 --> 01:38:54.771
And I don't mean to like invalidate people

01:38:54.792 --> 01:38:55.612
who do have that issue.

01:38:55.631 --> 01:38:56.993
I'm sure that must be really frustrating,

01:38:57.052 --> 01:38:57.613
but yeah.

01:38:57.932 --> 01:38:59.938
don't know for me it's um brave does

01:38:59.978 --> 01:39:01.161
the job really well and that's what i

01:39:01.261 --> 01:39:02.944
use but yeah that's um

01:39:04.033 --> 01:39:04.372
Real quick,

01:39:04.412 --> 01:39:06.774
that is another thing that I think almost

01:39:06.895 --> 01:39:12.539
all of these AIs, like Jordan was saying,

01:39:12.939 --> 01:39:13.579
they're all,

01:39:14.661 --> 01:39:15.841
or going back to what Jordan was saying,

01:39:15.921 --> 01:39:17.542
they're all kind of just proxies.

01:39:18.283 --> 01:39:20.586
Brave's Leo, Proton's Lumo,

01:39:21.025 --> 01:39:23.108
and they're done in such a way that

01:39:23.127 --> 01:39:24.349
it's a little bit more private for the

01:39:24.408 --> 01:39:24.809
end user,

01:39:25.208 --> 01:39:25.970
but at the end of the day,

01:39:25.989 --> 01:39:29.552
they're still using ChatGPT or Claude or

01:39:30.033 --> 01:39:30.774
whoever else,

01:39:30.833 --> 01:39:30.913
and

01:39:31.733 --> 01:39:33.894
So they still kind of do suffer from

01:39:33.935 --> 01:39:37.136
the same privacy problems of scraping data

01:39:37.176 --> 01:39:40.238
that they morally probably shouldn't have.

01:39:40.559 --> 01:39:43.140
So yeah,

01:39:43.159 --> 01:39:44.761
that's all I got on that one.

01:39:44.782 --> 01:39:47.342
I think, yeah, there's definitely,

01:39:48.463 --> 01:39:51.166
I think there's some valid issues with

01:39:51.206 --> 01:39:53.287
these alternative search engines, right?

01:39:53.346 --> 01:39:57.430
Like I think one area that is sometimes

01:39:58.880 --> 01:40:01.421
not talked about is a lot of these

01:40:02.301 --> 01:40:03.643
alternative search engines,

01:40:05.003 --> 01:40:07.145
they aren't going to be as good.

01:40:07.206 --> 01:40:09.487
I think your location certainly does

01:40:09.766 --> 01:40:10.467
matter, right?

01:40:11.207 --> 01:40:12.708
Some people complaining about the search

01:40:12.748 --> 01:40:15.831
results might be in different countries.

01:40:16.110 --> 01:40:16.692
If I search

01:40:19.420 --> 01:40:20.761
something that's super relevant in my

01:40:20.801 --> 01:40:22.101
country and it doesn't show up,

01:40:22.141 --> 01:40:23.764
that's obviously going to be a problem,

01:40:23.823 --> 01:40:24.123
right?

01:40:25.364 --> 01:40:28.988
And I think it gets compounded even more,

01:40:29.529 --> 01:40:31.289
for instance, in different languages.

01:40:31.350 --> 01:40:33.351
So if you were searching in a different

01:40:33.391 --> 01:40:33.731
language,

01:40:33.771 --> 01:40:35.314
I'm sure that is going to be even

01:40:35.373 --> 01:40:35.913
worse.

01:40:36.274 --> 01:40:37.536
The results are going to be even worse

01:40:37.615 --> 01:40:38.095
in Google.

01:40:38.697 --> 01:40:43.780
So it is kind of definitely a bit

01:40:43.820 --> 01:40:45.502
of a, I don't know,

01:40:46.623 --> 01:40:49.246
your use case might vary situation.

01:40:49.786 --> 01:40:52.547
Personally, I found that, you know,

01:40:52.807 --> 01:40:55.170
I've tried a lot of these different search

01:40:55.229 --> 01:40:57.070
engines and none of them have been

01:40:57.690 --> 01:40:59.152
particularly terrible.

01:40:59.893 --> 01:41:00.573
But, you know,

01:41:00.773 --> 01:41:04.155
I find that DuckDuckGo is generally fine.

01:41:04.756 --> 01:41:05.896
But I think, you know,

01:41:05.957 --> 01:41:08.278
people need to try and see which one

01:41:08.338 --> 01:41:10.000
works the best and which one you're most

01:41:10.060 --> 01:41:10.720
comfortable with.

01:41:12.060 --> 01:41:13.702
I've tried a lot of them and a

01:41:13.742 --> 01:41:15.662
lot of them I just wasn't super happy

01:41:15.682 --> 01:41:15.984
with it.

01:41:16.904 --> 01:41:18.125
And, you know,

01:41:18.164 --> 01:41:20.586
it just depends on your use case of

01:41:20.605 --> 01:41:21.246
the search engine.

01:41:21.265 --> 01:41:22.447
Like not everyone is going to use the

01:41:22.506 --> 01:41:23.728
search engine the same way.

01:41:24.368 --> 01:41:28.210
So I don't think it's strange to have

01:41:28.229 --> 01:41:30.511
an issue with the search results.

01:41:33.412 --> 01:41:33.872
Yeah,

01:41:33.893 --> 01:41:35.734
I wonder if his point was just kind

01:41:35.793 --> 01:41:35.894
of,

01:41:37.293 --> 01:41:38.375
maybe what he was saying is it's just

01:41:38.395 --> 01:41:39.895
kind of weird that people complain that

01:41:39.935 --> 01:41:41.195
like, oh, this is just a proxy.

01:41:41.216 --> 01:41:41.877
And it's like, well, yeah,

01:41:41.896 --> 01:41:42.957
but isn't the search engine?

01:41:43.016 --> 01:41:44.238
But I don't know.

01:41:44.358 --> 01:41:45.798
I think that might be more indicative of

01:41:45.859 --> 01:41:45.979
the,

01:41:46.969 --> 01:41:48.632
general attitudes that people have toward

01:41:48.752 --> 01:41:49.614
AI in general.

01:41:50.095 --> 01:41:53.203
Yeah, which I guess at that point,

01:41:53.243 --> 01:41:54.125
my question would be,

01:41:54.926 --> 01:41:56.310
is DuckDuckGo at least keeping...

01:41:57.242 --> 01:41:58.483
in line with their ethos.

01:41:58.582 --> 01:42:00.585
I hate to take shots at Mozilla here,

01:42:00.625 --> 01:42:04.828
but Mozilla's AI integration is absolutely

01:42:04.868 --> 01:42:05.268
abysmal.

01:42:06.069 --> 01:42:06.989
I don't feel bad saying that,

01:42:07.090 --> 01:42:09.150
but their AI integration,

01:42:09.171 --> 01:42:10.152
they straight up tell you,

01:42:10.351 --> 01:42:11.233
even in their blog post,

01:42:11.273 --> 01:42:11.793
I'll give them credit,

01:42:11.814 --> 01:42:12.734
they're very open about this,

01:42:13.215 --> 01:42:14.836
but they're basically just like, oh yeah,

01:42:14.855 --> 01:42:16.997
we've integrated ChatGPT and you can just

01:42:17.018 --> 01:42:18.298
click the little button in the sidebar and

01:42:18.338 --> 01:42:19.238
it's super easy.

01:42:19.840 --> 01:42:21.860
And by the way, once you use it,

01:42:21.881 --> 01:42:24.923
you're totally at OpenAI's mercy as far as

01:42:24.984 --> 01:42:25.644
privacy goes.

01:42:26.505 --> 01:42:29.186
But it's like, what's even the point?

01:42:29.287 --> 01:42:31.287
I can just bookmark chat GPT.

01:42:31.448 --> 01:42:33.529
I don't need a little pop-up window to

01:42:33.689 --> 01:42:34.368
use that.

01:42:34.890 --> 01:42:36.470
Why would I use this at all?

01:42:36.951 --> 01:42:38.230
So I do have to wonder if,

01:42:38.612 --> 01:42:39.192
and I think it does,

01:42:39.231 --> 01:42:39.792
but don't quote me.

01:42:39.872 --> 01:42:41.233
I do have to wonder if DuckDuckAI is

01:42:41.252 --> 01:42:42.293
like, yes, it's a proxy,

01:42:42.333 --> 01:42:45.956
but at least they have legal agreements

01:42:45.975 --> 01:42:47.695
with the companies not to train on your

01:42:47.735 --> 01:42:49.917
prompts or they proxy it so it doesn't

01:42:49.957 --> 01:42:50.297
get your

01:42:51.212 --> 01:42:52.853
device fingerprint like i have to wonder

01:42:52.872 --> 01:42:54.474
if they've done anything to make it more

01:42:54.514 --> 01:42:56.536
privacy respecting in which case i would

01:42:56.615 --> 01:42:59.118
argue like yes it is still a proxy

01:42:59.177 --> 01:43:01.259
but at least they're in keeping with their

01:43:01.359 --> 01:43:02.680
ethos of like trying to make it a

01:43:02.720 --> 01:43:05.521
more private experience again for the end

01:43:05.601 --> 01:43:06.703
user i really want to stress that but

01:43:06.722 --> 01:43:11.445
um but yeah i don't know um i

01:43:11.466 --> 01:43:12.867
will say real quick in response to what

01:43:12.886 --> 01:43:14.408
you said i think my favorite search engine

01:43:14.427 --> 01:43:16.510
in terms of actual effectiveness was uh

01:43:18.005 --> 01:43:20.025
I think it's search is how you pronounce

01:43:20.065 --> 01:43:20.145
it.

01:43:20.185 --> 01:43:22.768
The CRX, I think it's CRXNG now.

01:43:22.868 --> 01:43:24.309
Searching, I think is how it's pronounced.

01:43:25.729 --> 01:43:28.951
I used to use the crx.be instance,

01:43:29.430 --> 01:43:30.412
which I think is still around.

01:43:31.091 --> 01:43:33.052
And I will admit the results were

01:43:33.092 --> 01:43:33.712
impressive.

01:43:33.854 --> 01:43:36.274
I could always find the weirdest niche

01:43:36.435 --> 01:43:37.975
stuff that I couldn't find anywhere else.

01:43:39.301 --> 01:43:41.903
Because it drew from so many different

01:43:41.922 --> 01:43:42.542
search engines.

01:43:43.182 --> 01:43:44.144
But yeah, at the end of the day,

01:43:44.203 --> 01:43:44.564
personally,

01:43:45.024 --> 01:43:46.364
I decided that what I really wanted was

01:43:46.385 --> 01:43:49.067
like an independent index that wasn't just

01:43:49.106 --> 01:43:49.987
a meta search engine.

01:43:50.027 --> 01:43:51.608
So that's one of the reasons that I

01:43:51.627 --> 01:43:52.248
went with Brave.

01:43:52.288 --> 01:43:54.430
But yeah, I'm with you.

01:43:55.029 --> 01:43:55.730
They're all different.

01:43:56.291 --> 01:43:58.051
I think it's totally valid to just try

01:43:58.091 --> 01:43:59.313
out different ones and see which one works

01:43:59.453 --> 01:43:59.632
best.

01:44:03.707 --> 01:44:05.009
That's kind of really it for questions,

01:44:05.069 --> 01:44:05.368
I think.

01:44:05.588 --> 01:44:06.868
We did have another comment here.

01:44:06.908 --> 01:44:08.329
Somebody said, happy birthday, privacy.

01:44:09.550 --> 01:44:11.990
Is that in reference to Data Privacy Day

01:44:12.030 --> 01:44:12.511
recently?

01:44:12.570 --> 01:44:14.771
Or is this when Privacy Guides was

01:44:14.792 --> 01:44:15.131
founded?

01:44:15.612 --> 01:44:17.033
I'm not sure.

01:44:17.073 --> 01:44:17.893
I feel like I should know that.

01:44:20.314 --> 01:44:21.094
Yeah, I don't know.

01:44:21.113 --> 01:44:23.475
It seems an interesting comment to make.

01:44:24.695 --> 01:44:25.895
Thanks, I think.

01:44:27.377 --> 01:44:27.556
You know,

01:44:27.617 --> 01:44:28.636
I will take this as an excuse to

01:44:28.676 --> 01:44:30.818
go get some cake after this.

01:44:30.997 --> 01:44:31.438
I'm down.

01:44:33.319 --> 01:44:34.739
We'll put it on the company card.

01:44:35.060 --> 01:44:35.881
I don't have a company card.

01:44:36.162 --> 01:44:37.222
Jonah, I want a company card.

01:44:37.542 --> 01:44:37.903
I'm kidding.

01:44:40.746 --> 01:44:41.707
I just like saying random stuff.

01:44:42.346 --> 01:44:43.087
And then, yeah,

01:44:43.167 --> 01:44:44.389
one last person left a comment when we

01:44:44.408 --> 01:44:45.710
were talking about AI.

01:44:45.729 --> 01:44:47.212
They said use local AI instead.

01:44:48.393 --> 01:44:48.552
Yeah,

01:44:48.613 --> 01:44:50.975
I think local AI is probably going to

01:44:50.994 --> 01:44:54.377
be best for, again, end user privacy,

01:44:54.537 --> 01:44:55.939
especially because a lot of them you can

01:44:55.979 --> 01:44:57.740
completely firewall them on your computer

01:44:57.820 --> 01:44:59.002
or your device and they never have to

01:44:59.042 --> 01:44:59.643
touch the internet.

01:45:00.346 --> 01:45:03.288
But again, we were also talking,

01:45:03.569 --> 01:45:04.590
I know I'm like really beating it over

01:45:04.609 --> 01:45:05.451
the head lately,

01:45:05.511 --> 01:45:06.912
but just the idea of like,

01:45:06.992 --> 01:45:10.255
it's still trained on user data that may

01:45:10.295 --> 01:45:12.256
not have been consensually collected in a

01:45:12.296 --> 01:45:12.716
lot of cases.

01:45:12.756 --> 01:45:14.938
There's several ongoing lawsuits about

01:45:14.978 --> 01:45:17.439
this very issue right now of copyrighted

01:45:17.460 --> 01:45:19.041
works that, and actually,

01:45:20.061 --> 01:45:21.302
you mentioned it earlier and I completely

01:45:21.323 --> 01:45:21.903
forgot to bring it up,

01:45:21.922 --> 01:45:23.984
but I think that's so funny that Sam

01:45:24.064 --> 01:45:25.365
Altman is like, oh, well,

01:45:25.405 --> 01:45:27.067
if we can't steal copyrighted material,

01:45:27.127 --> 01:45:28.207
then we don't have a business.

01:45:28.247 --> 01:45:29.009
And it's like, okay,

01:45:30.287 --> 01:45:30.407
Like,

01:45:30.426 --> 01:45:32.028
could you imagine a drug dealer using that

01:45:32.068 --> 01:45:32.448
in court?

01:45:32.488 --> 01:45:33.268
Like, well, your honor,

01:45:33.568 --> 01:45:34.627
if I can't cook meth,

01:45:34.648 --> 01:45:35.689
then I don't have a business.

01:45:35.708 --> 01:45:36.969
And it's like, well, meth is illegal.

01:45:37.009 --> 01:45:38.270
So that sounds like a you problem.

01:45:39.949 --> 01:45:40.090
Like,

01:45:40.109 --> 01:45:41.671
that's insane that they're even trying to

01:45:41.791 --> 01:45:42.751
use that as a defense.

01:45:42.791 --> 01:45:43.291
And it's like, well,

01:45:43.310 --> 01:45:45.452
if I can't steal everybody's property,

01:45:45.492 --> 01:45:46.391
then I don't have a business.

01:45:46.431 --> 01:45:47.712
It's like, then you don't have a business.

01:45:47.773 --> 01:45:51.394
That's how it works.

01:45:51.413 --> 01:45:51.673
Sorry.

01:45:52.213 --> 01:45:53.154
I know I'm ranting a little bit,

01:45:53.173 --> 01:45:55.414
but the nerve to use that.

01:45:58.368 --> 01:45:59.668
All right.

01:46:00.029 --> 01:46:04.753
I think that's all we got this week.

01:46:04.913 --> 01:46:05.835
So let me...

01:46:07.280 --> 01:46:08.921
pull up my notes here.

01:46:08.942 --> 01:46:10.302
All right,

01:46:10.342 --> 01:46:11.823
so all the updates from this week in

01:46:11.863 --> 01:46:14.484
privacy are already shared on the blog,

01:46:14.625 --> 01:46:15.064
actually.

01:46:15.324 --> 01:46:16.265
We have actually,

01:46:16.286 --> 01:46:17.286
in case you guys didn't know,

01:46:17.386 --> 01:46:19.806
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