1 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:18,800 Dustin, welcome to the Evolved radio podcast. Hey, how you doing? 2 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:22,800 I'm excellent. And you? I am good. I'm super excited to do the show 3 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:26,560 with you. Yeah, this will be great. So we're going to be talking 4 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:30,250 about general career ladders and, and I 5 00:00:30,250 --> 00:00:33,930 think we'll kick off. I'll give you kind of a question 6 00:00:33,930 --> 00:00:37,770 to lead into the first topic that we wanted to connect on, which 7 00:00:37,770 --> 00:00:41,530 is the Peter Principle. For those not familiar, 8 00:00:42,250 --> 00:00:45,690 the Peter Principle is someone who has been promoted into 9 00:00:45,850 --> 00:00:49,650 the level of incompetence. Basically, you continue to 10 00:00:49,650 --> 00:00:53,170 good at your job and everyone's like, hey, great job, here's the next level. Hey, 11 00:00:53,170 --> 00:00:55,890 great job, here's the next level. And at some point you kind of look around 12 00:00:55,890 --> 00:00:59,500 and go, I don't know what I'm doing here. Right. 13 00:01:00,300 --> 00:01:03,420 So that's the Peter Principle. For anyone who is not 14 00:01:03,740 --> 00:01:07,340 familiar with this, I'm curious from your perspective, 15 00:01:07,820 --> 00:01:11,540 if you have ever sort of like, what's the story of you seeing 16 00:01:11,540 --> 00:01:15,140 this happen to someone, either yourself or someone else, where you 17 00:01:15,140 --> 00:01:18,700 recognize like, oh my God, like this person or. I am in a bit of 18 00:01:18,700 --> 00:01:22,500 a world of hurt because I did great. I got here, but now 19 00:01:22,500 --> 00:01:26,140 I'm really over my head. Yeah. I mean, there's actually three 20 00:01:26,140 --> 00:01:29,980 scenarios that I've personally been through. The first scenario is when I found 21 00:01:29,980 --> 00:01:33,620 myself promoting myself to my level of incompetence. 22 00:01:34,100 --> 00:01:37,820 I'd say the second scenario is when somebody was promoted and they didn't 23 00:01:37,820 --> 00:01:41,500 recognize the risk or the dangers they were in. And 24 00:01:41,500 --> 00:01:45,100 the third was where I promoted somebody, they recognized the 25 00:01:45,100 --> 00:01:48,940 problem and they self demoted. Which I thought was probably 26 00:01:48,940 --> 00:01:52,550 the most mature response I've ever seen to the Peter 27 00:01:52,550 --> 00:01:56,270 principal. I can dig into all three or any one of those. 28 00:01:57,230 --> 00:02:00,590 Let's start with the personal story. I suppose I want to come back to the 29 00:02:00,590 --> 00:02:04,150 one that, that demoted himself because I think there's there's some, a lot of really 30 00:02:04,150 --> 00:02:07,150 important lessons around that I think would be worth touching on. 31 00:02:07,710 --> 00:02:11,510 Yeah. So we'll talk about where I've stepped into a role where 32 00:02:11,510 --> 00:02:15,230 I'm not very strong. And I remember actually I wrote an article about 33 00:02:15,230 --> 00:02:18,750 this for this peer mentoring group years ago. And it was the 34 00:02:18,750 --> 00:02:22,590 concept that you should always be firing yourself. Now as 35 00:02:22,590 --> 00:02:26,030 an owner, you get, 36 00:02:26,350 --> 00:02:30,030 you do get yourself into trouble because sometimes you have nobody else to put into 37 00:02:30,030 --> 00:02:33,550 a role other than yourself, so you have no choice. I don't know that the 38 00:02:33,550 --> 00:02:37,230 Peter principle applies there. I will say 39 00:02:37,310 --> 00:02:40,950 that the Peter principle definitely applies when there's 40 00:02:40,950 --> 00:02:44,750 hubris where you think you can do something as the owner, but you can't. 41 00:02:45,070 --> 00:02:48,910 Or where there's somebody that could be better at it in the company than 42 00:02:48,910 --> 00:02:52,310 you. But in particular, I know 43 00:02:52,470 --> 00:02:56,030 I am strong visionary. I am a weak 44 00:02:56,030 --> 00:02:58,870 integrator, if you're familiar with that concept. Right. 45 00:02:59,590 --> 00:03:02,950 And so I can keep the threads together. 46 00:03:03,270 --> 00:03:06,830 Right. I can keep the. The ball moving forward, and I can. I can come 47 00:03:06,830 --> 00:03:10,470 up as many as analogies as needed for this story, But 48 00:03:11,750 --> 00:03:15,110 I definitely struggle with details because they 49 00:03:15,110 --> 00:03:18,870 emotionally beat me down. I just get it mentally 50 00:03:18,870 --> 00:03:22,590 exhausted when I'm doing detail work. And so what I 51 00:03:22,590 --> 00:03:25,710 find is when I grow a company, this is my fourth company. When I grow 52 00:03:25,710 --> 00:03:29,350 a company to a certain size, I reach 53 00:03:29,350 --> 00:03:32,830 my incompetence because I have enough people working under 54 00:03:32,830 --> 00:03:36,390 me that I'm no longer suitable. And 55 00:03:36,390 --> 00:03:39,070 what happens is the company will stall out. 56 00:03:40,270 --> 00:03:43,990 And it's because. Not because of the vision of the company. It's because 57 00:03:43,990 --> 00:03:47,340 I've become a huge bottleneck. And. And if you're in operations, 58 00:03:48,300 --> 00:03:51,700 your whole job is creating multiple 59 00:03:51,700 --> 00:03:55,100 communication channels in the company. That's literally like your function as 60 00:03:55,100 --> 00:03:58,940 operations manager is connecting all the pieces of the company. 61 00:03:59,580 --> 00:04:03,300 Whereas I will stall out because I struggle to put 62 00:04:03,300 --> 00:04:07,140 all those pieces together as an integrator, even though that is the almost 63 00:04:07,140 --> 00:04:10,740 entire purpose of the integrator. And so that's when I say that I 64 00:04:10,740 --> 00:04:14,330 tend to, um, push 65 00:04:14,330 --> 00:04:18,010 myself into the Peter principle, usually because the company's 66 00:04:18,010 --> 00:04:21,490 new, usually because I have no choice. But then I don't 67 00:04:21,490 --> 00:04:25,130 exit fast enough from that role. Yeah, I think that's 68 00:04:25,130 --> 00:04:28,530 like, I. I see what you're saying. The. But I think it's. It's also like, 69 00:04:28,530 --> 00:04:32,170 from an entrepreneurial standpoint, like, you kind of have to figure all of these 70 00:04:32,170 --> 00:04:35,850 things out. And then to the. To your point, like, promoting 71 00:04:35,850 --> 00:04:39,580 yourself into a relevance is. Is, I think, a sign 72 00:04:39,580 --> 00:04:43,340 of success and for two reasons. One, that you've actually built a 73 00:04:43,340 --> 00:04:47,100 team that's competent enough to take things over for you. But also, I would 74 00:04:47,100 --> 00:04:50,900 say one of the major limiting factors that I think exists in small business is 75 00:04:50,900 --> 00:04:54,419 people are just so careful about removing 76 00:04:54,419 --> 00:04:58,100 themselves, thinking like they have some special expertise or knowledge or 77 00:04:58,420 --> 00:05:01,860 some capability in order to do those things, and they tend to hang on to 78 00:05:01,860 --> 00:05:05,470 them for far too long. And maybe it's because they 79 00:05:05,470 --> 00:05:09,230 promoted someone into a level that they weren't really prepared for, and 80 00:05:09,230 --> 00:05:13,070 they got burned by that in some past. Or that they, you know, they. 81 00:05:13,070 --> 00:05:16,870 They just fundamentally feel like, I don't know, I can't give this up, because what 82 00:05:16,870 --> 00:05:20,590 if it goes wrong? Do you think like those two scenarios of like, I 83 00:05:20,590 --> 00:05:23,950 can't give this up because it might go wrong versus, you know, I tried this 84 00:05:23,950 --> 00:05:27,790 once and it really went badly. Did you. Did you see sort of either of 85 00:05:27,790 --> 00:05:31,610 those scenarios? Yeah, for sure. I mean, keep in mind, my 86 00:05:31,610 --> 00:05:35,290 age, I've seen it all, right? And definitely 87 00:05:35,290 --> 00:05:38,050 I have delegated out task 88 00:05:38,930 --> 00:05:41,650 and now I'm better about 89 00:05:42,050 --> 00:05:45,650 measurables and KPIs. You know, in my mind, there's three 90 00:05:45,890 --> 00:05:49,090 management models. There's delegation, 91 00:05:49,730 --> 00:05:52,610 there's micromanagement, and there's abdication. 92 00:05:53,730 --> 00:05:57,370 And, you know, I think the struggle for most 93 00:05:57,370 --> 00:06:00,780 owners is you 94 00:06:00,940 --> 00:06:04,540 at first don't realize it, but you're delegating without 95 00:06:05,660 --> 00:06:09,420 measurables, which is just abdication, and 96 00:06:09,420 --> 00:06:12,860 you get really burned because you just. You bring on this awesome, 97 00:06:13,020 --> 00:06:16,820 awesome person as some marketing vp, whatever, and 98 00:06:16,820 --> 00:06:20,460 they just completely fall down and 99 00:06:20,620 --> 00:06:24,460 maybe it's your fault, maybe they should have said something, but you do that and 100 00:06:24,460 --> 00:06:28,180 you're just like, oh, man. Maybe you shift into micromanagement. 101 00:06:28,180 --> 00:06:31,980 But micromanagement is as destructive to the manager as is to 102 00:06:31,980 --> 00:06:35,820 the managee, and it's mentally exhausting. So you just don't 103 00:06:35,820 --> 00:06:39,500 end up delegating and you're stuck in this role and it's just becoming a 104 00:06:39,500 --> 00:06:42,700 mess. You know, I think really, what a great 105 00:06:42,700 --> 00:06:46,420 manager is somebody that learns that, that you have to delegate 106 00:06:46,420 --> 00:06:49,740 with measurables. That's. That's the only way to properly manage. 107 00:06:50,140 --> 00:06:53,840 But it's tough to get there. And so that's typically when I would find myself 108 00:06:53,840 --> 00:06:57,440 in the Peter principle is, especially early on in my career 109 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:01,440 where I would burn myself and then I would hold on too tight 110 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:05,160 the next time and then it would blow up because I was holding on to 111 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:08,800 too much of that job role. Yeah. Yeah. So much there. 112 00:07:09,280 --> 00:07:13,120 So I think like the, the one of abdication versus delegation. 113 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:16,920 I think this is a huge, huge problem. Right. Like, I'd be curious on 114 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:19,680 your feeling on this. I feel like I've been talking about this a lot where, 115 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:23,430 lately, where people feel. I think there's a. 116 00:07:23,430 --> 00:07:27,030 There's sort of this, this myth in business that's perpetuated by a lot 117 00:07:27,030 --> 00:07:30,510 of business books that focus on enterprise organizations 118 00:07:30,670 --> 00:07:34,430 and, and it maybe holds true in certain circumstances, like at 119 00:07:34,430 --> 00:07:38,190 enterprise level where you have like a VP or C 120 00:07:38,270 --> 00:07:42,070 suite person. And there's this idea of like, I want to hire smart people and 121 00:07:42,070 --> 00:07:45,350 get out of the way. Right. And I think this is a pervasive myth that 122 00:07:45,350 --> 00:07:49,130 is misunderstood in most small and medium business where that is 123 00:07:49,130 --> 00:07:52,810 not that practical. Right. Like the people that you're bringing into these roles 124 00:07:52,970 --> 00:07:56,770 don't come out of, you know, graduate degrees and have MBAs and all 125 00:07:56,770 --> 00:08:00,610 of those things of, you know, intern somewhere and have all this great 126 00:08:00,610 --> 00:08:04,210 experience that they can draw upon. So a lot of owners are like, they put 127 00:08:04,210 --> 00:08:07,330 someone new into a role and it's basically pat them on the head like, hey, 128 00:08:07,330 --> 00:08:10,250 you'll be great. And then they just disappear into the woodwork and go focus on 129 00:08:10,250 --> 00:08:13,970 other things. So of course everyone's going to be disappointed with the results 130 00:08:13,970 --> 00:08:17,720 of that. And I still feel like a lot of 131 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:21,360 people want to hold on to this idea of I don't want to micromanage 132 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:24,840 so therefore I'm not going to tell them what to do. And I think this 133 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:28,400 is where that distinction between abdication and delegation really gets lost 134 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:32,120 because you end up in abdication zone 135 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:35,880 because you don't want to be a micromanager when realistically you should be closer 136 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:39,640 to the micromanagement side in just supporting and helping the person to get 137 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:42,940 things done. Right. Yeah, I mean, I think there's a ramp up. I, 138 00:08:43,420 --> 00:08:47,100 I think the cold hard reality is, you know, I think I'm 139 00:08:47,100 --> 00:08:50,700 gonna invent numbers here. Let's say 80% of 140 00:08:50,700 --> 00:08:53,980 businesses or you know, 20 people or less, 141 00:08:54,460 --> 00:08:58,220 something like that. I know it's, most businesses are small. Just 142 00:08:58,700 --> 00:09:02,180 I'll give you some context to add to that. Like 90% of the 143 00:09:02,180 --> 00:09:05,660 MSP industry is sub $1 million, which is kind of mind 144 00:09:05,660 --> 00:09:09,350 blowing. Yes. But it also means that first of all, you don't 145 00:09:09,350 --> 00:09:12,870 have the budget to go hire that a player 146 00:09:14,070 --> 00:09:17,350 has the experience. Now you're going to have to make a decision 147 00:09:17,510 --> 00:09:20,710 generally when you hire, either you're going to hire smoked a lot of experience 148 00:09:21,830 --> 00:09:25,390 or you're going to hire somebody that's young and moldable and 149 00:09:25,390 --> 00:09:29,230 ready to get experience. But a lot 150 00:09:29,230 --> 00:09:32,390 of the fire has been lost when you hire the older person. 151 00:09:33,140 --> 00:09:36,740 But what you're getting back is just the sophistication and the experience. 152 00:09:37,140 --> 00:09:40,660 You got to figure out where, what you're going to go for because you're, you're 153 00:09:40,660 --> 00:09:43,620 getting really good on both sides, but they're going to have different 154 00:09:44,340 --> 00:09:48,060 attributes. So rule number one is you don't have the money to hire 155 00:09:48,060 --> 00:09:51,900 yourself. Right. And that's the thing. People think 156 00:09:51,900 --> 00:09:55,660 they're going to go hire another business owner and that's ridiculous. Unless you bring them 157 00:09:55,660 --> 00:09:59,220 own as a. Give them equity. Like that's how you bring in a. 158 00:09:59,580 --> 00:10:02,540 I hate to say rock star. I think that term's dead, isn't it? Dead. I 159 00:10:02,540 --> 00:10:06,340 Don't feel people say rock star anymore. I don't. Not as useful. 160 00:10:06,340 --> 00:10:10,140 LinkedIn. Only then, only then let's say only thing. But I 161 00:10:10,140 --> 00:10:13,660 don't know what the replacement term is for that. Hashtag awesome 162 00:10:13,660 --> 00:10:17,500 owner. But that, that's one problem. I, I think, 163 00:10:19,980 --> 00:10:23,580 I think that people need to 164 00:10:23,580 --> 00:10:26,970 spend a lot more time learning and 165 00:10:26,970 --> 00:10:30,770 understanding the measurables in their company so that they can 166 00:10:30,770 --> 00:10:34,370 better manage. I think people spend too much time 167 00:10:34,930 --> 00:10:38,290 developing, trying to develop the people skills 168 00:10:38,770 --> 00:10:41,650 and they want to have good relationships and they want to lead 169 00:10:42,690 --> 00:10:45,810 and then in that way they think, well, if I have a strong 170 00:10:45,810 --> 00:10:49,650 relationship that where there's open communication I can then 171 00:10:49,650 --> 00:10:53,380 abdicate my management role. Going back to what you were saying 172 00:10:53,460 --> 00:10:56,860 and I'm gonna let this, this, this shining 173 00:10:56,860 --> 00:11:00,700 store shine brightly. Alpha marketing. I'll just say marketing 174 00:11:00,700 --> 00:11:04,340 is the easy one. You know how hard it is to find that 175 00:11:04,340 --> 00:11:07,860 person. Like you just don't have the budget for it. Unless 176 00:11:07,860 --> 00:11:11,500 you're a ten million dollar organization, you don't have the budget to 177 00:11:11,500 --> 00:11:15,100 hire that person. And so you really need to lean more 178 00:11:15,100 --> 00:11:18,780 into. And I think you were saying micromanagement, but I suspect what you meant 179 00:11:18,780 --> 00:11:22,500 was more tracking of progress. 180 00:11:23,220 --> 00:11:26,580 Right? More task management. And 181 00:11:26,820 --> 00:11:30,620 are the numbers trending in the right direction? If the numbers on your 182 00:11:30,620 --> 00:11:34,100 KPI dashboard are green, you need to leave that person alone. 183 00:11:34,260 --> 00:11:37,620 100% agree. Right. If they're yellow, then there's 184 00:11:37,620 --> 00:11:41,340 mentoring, coaching. If they're red, you need to determine did I 185 00:11:41,340 --> 00:11:45,180 miss hire? Do I have the wrong KPIs? Does this person not 186 00:11:45,180 --> 00:11:49,020 have the money, budget, tools they need or, or you know, is 187 00:11:49,020 --> 00:11:52,380 there some unknown out there that need to look at? The red is just tell 188 00:11:52,380 --> 00:11:56,060 you something's wrong. It doesn't tell you what's wrong. The yellow tells you you 189 00:11:56,060 --> 00:11:58,660 probably just need to do some mentoring and the greens tell you 190 00:11:59,620 --> 00:12:03,459 you're doing a good job or unfortunately you're still measuring the wrong 191 00:12:03,459 --> 00:12:06,980 things. Right. And I can have a, I can have a 10 hour 192 00:12:06,980 --> 00:12:10,820 conversation. KPIs. Oh, me too. Yeah, yeah. And I agree, like 193 00:12:10,900 --> 00:12:14,300 this is a big factor that I really try to coach people on and in 194 00:12:14,300 --> 00:12:18,060 their businesses is measure outputs, not inputs. Right. Like I don't care how 195 00:12:18,060 --> 00:12:21,780 busy people are, I want to know how much they've produced. Right. Because like busy 196 00:12:21,780 --> 00:12:25,380 is a very, you know, BS and squishy term. Right. You can be busy all 197 00:12:25,380 --> 00:12:28,900 day and accomplish nothing. So like what are we actually producing results 198 00:12:28,900 --> 00:12:32,660 from? And I think that gives you a lot more to measure. And I 199 00:12:32,660 --> 00:12:36,180 think like if you can use service based leadership approach 200 00:12:36,260 --> 00:12:39,580 of like, I'm curious, what do you need? How can I help you? Like, like 201 00:12:39,580 --> 00:12:43,230 just falling all over the person looking to provide some level of support. As long 202 00:12:43,230 --> 00:12:46,750 as you're not smothering them. Right. But it's not critical feedback and trying to 203 00:12:46,750 --> 00:12:50,430 correct every single tiny mistake that they make in order to help them 204 00:12:50,430 --> 00:12:53,990 to step up because that will just infuriate and frustrate people. 205 00:12:54,230 --> 00:12:57,950 But I think like to your point, that works at all the levels, at 206 00:12:57,950 --> 00:13:01,750 all the colors of that KPI, right? If it's green, you don't need to tell 207 00:13:01,750 --> 00:13:05,350 them what to do. They're probably doing well. It's, you know, what 208 00:13:05,350 --> 00:13:08,590 can, what can we work on? What can we improve? What insights do you have? 209 00:13:08,590 --> 00:13:12,150 Right? Like, like teasing that information out of them and looking 210 00:13:12,150 --> 00:13:15,990 for ways that you can provide additional support. Yellow is, 211 00:13:16,710 --> 00:13:20,470 let's understand this, let's work on this together. What do we not see? 212 00:13:20,470 --> 00:13:23,390 What do you think some of the problems are? Let's have some dialogue and go 213 00:13:23,390 --> 00:13:26,950 back and forth on this. And red is, do you understand this? 214 00:13:27,109 --> 00:13:30,950 And maybe is the number correct? We set this target as this 215 00:13:30,950 --> 00:13:34,710 number. Is it simply impossible? Let's have this discussion. So you're 216 00:13:34,710 --> 00:13:38,230 always at that service level of not telling them you're doing 217 00:13:38,230 --> 00:13:41,630 poorly. You need to do better because you know, no one ever responds to that 218 00:13:41,630 --> 00:13:45,350 type of criticism well and says, oh sure, I'll just, I'll just work harder. Those 219 00:13:45,350 --> 00:13:49,070 60 hour weeks are apparently not enough. Right. So I think there's always a 220 00:13:49,070 --> 00:13:52,630 way to engage with people that is, comes from a place of 221 00:13:52,630 --> 00:13:56,470 support and gives people a clear picture that I'm here to help 222 00:13:56,470 --> 00:14:00,310 you. I'm not here to, you know, discipline you until you get better. You know 223 00:14:00,550 --> 00:14:03,430 that expression whippings will continue until morale. Yes, 224 00:14:04,710 --> 00:14:08,470 I like the beatings, but if I give you, if I were to kind of 225 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:12,640 put a bow on that as a sound bite, I would say 226 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:15,200 around that as well as 227 00:14:17,680 --> 00:14:21,400 one thing is, if your KPIs, the KPIs you're 228 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:24,640 measuring don't change as your company grows and shrinks, 229 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:29,040 that right there is a red flag. I think 230 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:33,520 people that have static KPIs that they measure, 231 00:14:34,330 --> 00:14:38,130 they get themselves in a pickle because that green KPI that worked 232 00:14:38,130 --> 00:14:41,890 for you two years ago will destroy you in 233 00:14:41,890 --> 00:14:45,330 the future because as you grow it becomes, it's going to become a problem because 234 00:14:45,330 --> 00:14:49,130 there's some KPIs that could become bad at certain sizes. The other thing is, and 235 00:14:49,130 --> 00:14:52,090 I think people struggle with this is my 236 00:14:52,090 --> 00:14:55,890 strategy is My manager's. Wait, 237 00:14:55,890 --> 00:14:59,370 how is it my strategy I delegate as my 238 00:15:00,090 --> 00:15:03,610 tactics to my manager and that becomes their 239 00:15:03,610 --> 00:15:07,330 strategy. What becomes the they delegate down as their tactics that 240 00:15:07,330 --> 00:15:10,770 become a strategy under them. And so the bigger your 241 00:15:10,770 --> 00:15:14,570 organization, the more like contained the KPI is going to 242 00:15:14,570 --> 00:15:17,610 be. Like, I might if I'm a $10 million MSP, 243 00:15:18,330 --> 00:15:21,930 the only KPI I might want from a help desk is my CSAT. 244 00:15:23,050 --> 00:15:26,830 But if I'm a sub $1 million MSP, 245 00:15:27,470 --> 00:15:29,870 I probably want to see time to close 246 00:15:31,630 --> 00:15:35,310 and I want to see first time close like I want. 247 00:15:36,430 --> 00:15:39,870 I'm going to be closer to the KPIs coming out of the help desk because 248 00:15:39,870 --> 00:15:42,670 I don't have the layers between me and my technicians. 249 00:15:43,390 --> 00:15:47,230 And so their KPIs, the ones I'm looking at are much more raw. 250 00:15:47,470 --> 00:15:51,270 And then when I get to be a large company, I'm 251 00:15:51,270 --> 00:15:54,670 really just looking at the KPIs of my manager, which would be like a CSAT 252 00:15:55,790 --> 00:15:59,570 score. And so just kind of really handling hammering on the KPIs. You really got 253 00:15:59,570 --> 00:16:03,330 to think about the KPIs you're looking at. One is going to dictate where your 254 00:16:03,330 --> 00:16:06,970 company is going to go. Two is going to dictate how your managers try to 255 00:16:06,970 --> 00:16:10,650 cheat on the KPIs. And then three, it's 256 00:16:10,650 --> 00:16:14,410 really going to influence how you manage the people. If you're in a 10 257 00:16:14,410 --> 00:16:17,850 million dollar MSP and you're looking at time to close on 258 00:16:17,850 --> 00:16:21,650 tickets, you're micromanaging. Right? I mean like the 259 00:16:21,650 --> 00:16:25,450 KPIs you're looking at tells you what your management style is going to be. Yeah. 260 00:16:25,450 --> 00:16:29,090 So we've gone into a wicked sidetrack because 261 00:16:29,090 --> 00:16:32,210 as you said, both of us could talk KPIs. Oh yeah. What are we talking 262 00:16:32,210 --> 00:16:35,410 about again? No, no, this is good because like I think this is, this is 263 00:16:35,410 --> 00:16:39,130 actually helpful because it does speak to why people get lost 264 00:16:39,290 --> 00:16:42,690 and they're kind of in the woods, not know what to look at or how 265 00:16:42,690 --> 00:16:46,490 they find some reference for this. And I think like two ways that I typically 266 00:16:46,490 --> 00:16:50,090 see this is KPIs that have been read for six months 267 00:16:50,420 --> 00:16:54,260 and no one seems to really care. Like it's just become the norm. It's like, 268 00:16:54,340 --> 00:16:57,740 you know, whatever. Okay, that it is, like there's always some excuse as to why 269 00:16:57,740 --> 00:17:01,300 it is. And then to that point, like the opposite side of that is 270 00:17:01,300 --> 00:17:05,060 it's also been green for six months. Like good. But like 271 00:17:05,060 --> 00:17:08,900 should we be looking pointless? Some level of improvement here? Yeah. Or maybe you shouldn't 272 00:17:08,900 --> 00:17:12,700 Be tracking it. Maybe. It's a pointless piece of paperwork. I'll share real 273 00:17:12,700 --> 00:17:16,460 quick. I did fire. If I have a minute to share a 274 00:17:16,460 --> 00:17:19,780 story where I fired my service manager because of a KPI 275 00:17:20,319 --> 00:17:24,079 that was red that turned green does sound 276 00:17:24,079 --> 00:17:27,799 an interesting story. Carry on. Yeah, so. So I, I 277 00:17:27,799 --> 00:17:31,519 had this service manager for several months and he maybe actually, 278 00:17:31,919 --> 00:17:35,039 let's say over a year, I think it was. And he kept telling me, 279 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:39,039 dustin, there's just, we can't get these KPIs. It was, it was the, 280 00:17:39,039 --> 00:17:42,639 the SLAs, right. We can't get our resolution. We can't. 281 00:17:42,879 --> 00:17:46,430 Like, I don't have the staff, I don't have the tools for it. We need 282 00:17:46,430 --> 00:17:50,190 to throw bodies at this problem. Right? Yeah. And so, and so I was just 283 00:17:50,190 --> 00:17:53,390 like, man, I would look at the numbers. We were doing sea level at the 284 00:17:53,390 --> 00:17:57,030 time. And so we were able to compare numbers with the CLI, SLI 285 00:17:57,030 --> 00:18:00,750 numbers and all that. And we were already over budget on labor. And I was 286 00:18:00,750 --> 00:18:04,230 like, man, we need more labor. This is crazy. We're already over 287 00:18:04,230 --> 00:18:08,030 budget. And he went on vacation for a 288 00:18:08,030 --> 00:18:11,670 week. And I said, you know what, I brought the help 289 00:18:11,670 --> 00:18:15,350 desk in. I said, look, guys, we're gonna, we're gonna show 290 00:18:15,350 --> 00:18:19,110 ourselves. We can turn this screen. If we get 291 00:18:19,110 --> 00:18:22,670 these SLAs green by the end of this week, I'm gonna give everybody a fifteen 292 00:18:22,670 --> 00:18:26,510 hundred dollar check. Done. If we get, just get a 293 00:18:26,510 --> 00:18:30,030 green, I'm gonna just, everybody, you'll see, you'll get an extra 294 00:18:30,030 --> 00:18:33,790 deposit in your account from the payroll company. Fifteen hundred dollars 295 00:18:33,870 --> 00:18:37,550 per person. Because that's how big of the problem it was. 296 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:42,400 And that service manager came back and I fired him that next Monday. Because we 297 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:46,040 were green, right. And we were legitimately 298 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:49,840 green. Okay. I was going to ask you, like. Yes. Was the name number gamed? 299 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:53,560 Yeah. Okay. No, I went through every ticket. Yeah. And I said, because 300 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:56,680 it was a lot of money, right? I think it was like $15,000 or something. 301 00:18:56,680 --> 00:19:00,120 I'd like 10x. And so I went through it and every 302 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:03,720 single ticket was properly closed. It was documented. 303 00:19:04,130 --> 00:19:07,890 They had found ways around the problem. They figured out what's 304 00:19:07,890 --> 00:19:11,370 the big issue, what's the small issue? What's the artificial obstacle that 305 00:19:11,370 --> 00:19:15,210 I'm using? Because you put that much money in front of people for just one 306 00:19:15,210 --> 00:19:18,410 week of work, they're going to get it done. And so I fired him on 307 00:19:18,410 --> 00:19:22,050 that Monday because I was like, you told me this was impossible. I 308 00:19:22,050 --> 00:19:25,610 put money in front of them. And of course his arguments, well, what If I 309 00:19:25,610 --> 00:19:29,090 wish I had had those resources, I said, but you never asked me for 310 00:19:29,090 --> 00:19:32,730 anything other than hiring more staff. Like, like your role as 311 00:19:32,730 --> 00:19:36,290 manager just come to me with some solutions. But you never had solutions. 312 00:19:36,610 --> 00:19:40,210 You just said, I need to hire more people. And so that's why 313 00:19:40,370 --> 00:19:44,090 I fired somebody when the KPI went green. So I think 314 00:19:44,090 --> 00:19:47,770 that's insightful too, because I think there's a mindset 315 00:19:47,770 --> 00:19:51,530 shift that, that speaks to, right? Like those people that say that are 316 00:19:51,530 --> 00:19:55,210 in a defeatist attitude of like, this just isn't possible, right? 317 00:19:55,210 --> 00:19:58,760 And they assume that to be true, right? So that's their 318 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:02,520 internal narrative. That person will never be able to convince the rest of 319 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:06,040 the, of the group, like the team that they lead, that like, maybe we can 320 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:09,800 fight our way through this. Let's just find some creative solutions. Or just as 321 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:13,520 you said, like dig down and understand this on a ticket by ticket basis. Like, 322 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:17,160 we're all doing Q reviews and figure out how we can close 50% of our 323 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:20,680 tickets. Right? Like, that's the type of mindset shift that I think is really 324 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:24,080 practical. And I see this all the time where those sort of grizzled, 325 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:28,560 you know, grumpy service managers are just like, oh, this 326 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:32,080 isn't possible and all these clients are jerks, blah, blah, blah. Like that 327 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:35,680 mindset shift I think is incredibly important to not 328 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:39,240 fall into this trap, right? Well, absolutely. 329 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:43,560 The Griff service manager, if I remember correctly, one of 330 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:47,400 the ways they solved it was because I whiteboard it with them every morning. 331 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:51,080 We whiteboarded and I would always ask them just one question. What 332 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:54,720 obstacles are keeping you from success? And if I 333 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:58,400 remember correctly, one of the obstacles was like the Resolution 334 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:02,040 Plan 1, one of the SLAs, they said it's actually impossible 335 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:05,600 to ever get green. The way that things are configured, like 336 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:08,080 there's nothing we can do. It's just going to be green, it's going to be 337 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:11,240 red just by, by the, the formula being used. 338 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:15,440 And so we all came up with a reasonable update to the formula. 339 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:19,040 Nothing that been presented to me and we all agreed it was a fair 340 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:22,690 formula. We updated it to. And that right there increased about like 10, 10 or 341 00:21:22,690 --> 00:21:26,330 11%. And then they only had to go the other halfway to get that one 342 00:21:26,330 --> 00:21:29,690 green. Like sometimes you just got a whiteboard the problem and say, 343 00:21:29,930 --> 00:21:33,730 is there a clerical issue that's keeping you from being 344 00:21:33,730 --> 00:21:37,370 successful? And techs hate that. They hate the bureaucracy. 345 00:21:37,610 --> 00:21:41,410 Yeah, I agree, they do. And I like that approach because in a lot of 346 00:21:41,410 --> 00:21:45,130 cases, like I like using SLA in order 347 00:21:45,130 --> 00:21:48,770 to reverse engineer the process, right? Like you do a value stream map and 348 00:21:48,770 --> 00:21:52,210 understand like, how long does the ticket stay then spend in each of these stages 349 00:21:52,210 --> 00:21:55,970 and why is that? Right? Like, you know, we, we can't 350 00:21:55,970 --> 00:21:59,810 hit 30 minutes because this process, it requires this handoff 351 00:21:59,810 --> 00:22:03,210 and this person, like it goes into this queue and gets, and it waits. Like 352 00:22:03,210 --> 00:22:06,050 if we just put it into the role of this person to do this queue 353 00:22:06,050 --> 00:22:09,610 and send an email to the, to, to somebody else, to the client, like, 354 00:22:09,610 --> 00:22:12,770 boom. Like all of a sudden you've cut our SLA in half, right? So I 355 00:22:12,770 --> 00:22:16,170 like using it as a barometer. It's usually like where I started 356 00:22:16,170 --> 00:22:19,910 consulting with, with clients is like, okay, your SLA 357 00:22:19,910 --> 00:22:23,350 says that it takes you 46, 46 hours 358 00:22:23,430 --> 00:22:27,230 to acknowledge a ticket. And they're like, that can't be true. That's not true. 359 00:22:27,230 --> 00:22:31,070 It's like, okay, well let's understand the process because the system thinks that's how long 360 00:22:31,070 --> 00:22:34,910 it takes and that's what's important here. So let's understand why it thinks that's the 361 00:22:34,910 --> 00:22:38,510 case. Right? Okay, well that's 362 00:22:38,510 --> 00:22:41,590 KPI solved right there. We're done with that. There we go. 363 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:45,840 So, and I think like a couple of these things I think are relevant to 364 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:49,040 this, right? So let's, let's pivot to 365 00:22:49,360 --> 00:22:53,120 building a bit of a career ladder for people, right? I think one of 366 00:22:53,120 --> 00:22:56,400 the issues that I think a lot of MSPs make, and I'm sure 367 00:22:56,640 --> 00:23:00,200 either you made this mistake or certainly have seen this happen where 368 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:03,440 they're just promoting the most senior person that's been around 369 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:07,560 to become the service manager. Classic, classic mistake. Yeah. And 370 00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:11,240 it's such an error. Like I get under. I understand why 371 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:14,820 people do this because it seems, seems to make some logical 372 00:23:14,820 --> 00:23:18,580 sense. And even I see people get caught up in sort of 373 00:23:18,580 --> 00:23:22,380 loyalty of like, well, I would have to make this person the service manager because 374 00:23:22,380 --> 00:23:26,060 they've worked here the longest. Like, no, that has no relevance to it at all. 375 00:23:26,220 --> 00:23:29,700 In a lot of cases, the most senior and certainly the most technical people in 376 00:23:29,700 --> 00:23:33,540 your organization have zero interest in managing people. So don't make 377 00:23:33,540 --> 00:23:37,180 them manage people. Everyone's going to end up unhappy in that situation. Well, it's like 378 00:23:37,180 --> 00:23:41,030 if you, if you're into NBA, you watch NBA, does 379 00:23:41,030 --> 00:23:44,470 anybody actually think every player on that court would be a 380 00:23:44,470 --> 00:23:47,990 fantastic coach? But they're the most incredible 381 00:23:47,990 --> 00:23:51,790 basketball players in the world. You cannot find a better player 382 00:23:51,790 --> 00:23:54,990 than in the NBA in the US when it comes to basketball. 383 00:23:55,870 --> 00:23:59,470 So according to the logic of 99% of MSP owners. 384 00:23:59,710 --> 00:24:03,510 Every NBA player is going to be a fantastic coach. Yeah. 385 00:24:03,510 --> 00:24:07,310 Or like, you know, this person has been on the team for nine years, therefore, 386 00:24:07,310 --> 00:24:10,740 we have to make them center. It's like, well, I don't know if that's a 387 00:24:10,740 --> 00:24:13,860 good idea. Right. It's. Their time has come. Yes. 388 00:24:14,500 --> 00:24:18,100 They're also like, they're probably. You bring out the sword and unite them 389 00:24:18,100 --> 00:24:21,780 because they've done the work. They're ready to go. Yeah, no, I. 390 00:24:21,780 --> 00:24:25,460 I definitely. Well, that actually is a good segue into 391 00:24:27,060 --> 00:24:29,860 where I promoted that one person who 392 00:24:30,420 --> 00:24:33,700 demoted himself afterwards. Yep. Where, 393 00:24:34,820 --> 00:24:38,550 you know, let's call him Frank. He. He had 394 00:24:38,790 --> 00:24:42,470 been with me for several years, and he said, hey, I want to try 395 00:24:42,550 --> 00:24:46,070 being a project manager. I just want to see how this 396 00:24:46,070 --> 00:24:49,830 goes. And this was a real project manager, not the project manager that's also 397 00:24:49,830 --> 00:24:53,510 the only project technician in the department. Like, this person actually 398 00:24:53,510 --> 00:24:57,310 would have tasks and timelines and people. And so I 399 00:24:57,310 --> 00:25:00,990 said, you know what, Frank? You've been with me long enough. Let's try it. 400 00:25:00,990 --> 00:25:04,830 And I said, if something doesn't work out, let's talk. And 401 00:25:04,910 --> 00:25:08,750 so we tried and we tried, and he came back to me. 402 00:25:08,750 --> 00:25:12,150 It was like three months, and we were having lunch. I was checking in with 403 00:25:12,150 --> 00:25:15,230 him because I used to do quarterly lunches with my staff. I would do one 404 00:25:15,230 --> 00:25:18,670 lunch per staff. That's how I would do my. My touch base. And 405 00:25:18,990 --> 00:25:22,790 he's like, you know what? I don't like managing people. I just don't 406 00:25:22,790 --> 00:25:26,310 like it. I like to just be behind my computer and get stuff done. And 407 00:25:26,310 --> 00:25:29,590 I said, okay, great. What do you want to do? And so he said, I 408 00:25:29,590 --> 00:25:33,220 just want to go back to my old job. And I said, done, done. It 409 00:25:33,220 --> 00:25:36,300 can. It can be effective today. And I said, how do you want to communicate 410 00:25:36,300 --> 00:25:40,060 this to the team? I said, you tell me how you want to communicate 411 00:25:40,060 --> 00:25:43,420 this, and then we'll. That's how we're going to do it. And so he said, 412 00:25:43,420 --> 00:25:46,180 I'm just. I want to be blunt. I want to just come out and say, 413 00:25:46,260 --> 00:25:49,620 you know what, guys? I've decided I like just doing the work. I don't like 414 00:25:49,620 --> 00:25:53,140 managing the work. And that's what we said. And to me, that was an 415 00:25:53,140 --> 00:25:56,900 incredibly emotionally mature way of doing it. And I 416 00:25:56,900 --> 00:26:00,690 think what's important. What's important here is also that I'm not saying 417 00:26:00,690 --> 00:26:04,330 that I'm gonna. I'm not gonna own this. But as an organization, he felt comfortable 418 00:26:04,330 --> 00:26:07,930 that he wouldn't be. It wouldn't be embarrassing for 419 00:26:07,930 --> 00:26:11,370 him. I think that's massive. That, that, that psychological 420 00:26:11,370 --> 00:26:13,850 safety. To be able to come to you and say, I don't think this is 421 00:26:13,850 --> 00:26:17,450 working. Like, can I do something else? I think that's huge. So like 422 00:26:17,530 --> 00:26:20,970 one of the things, like, I think this is a good segue back in, 423 00:26:20,970 --> 00:26:24,530 looping back on this. But like, how did you manage the payroll situation? Like, did 424 00:26:24,530 --> 00:26:27,290 he get an increase to go into that role? Like, how did you. No, I 425 00:26:27,290 --> 00:26:30,630 think it was, I think we agree, like 426 00:26:31,750 --> 00:26:34,870 a few months to figure it out. To figure, like to. 427 00:26:35,590 --> 00:26:38,790 I don't think I had an immediate pay bump to it. Okay. 428 00:26:39,510 --> 00:26:43,150 Because it was just high risk and I think we both knew 429 00:26:43,150 --> 00:26:46,710 it. I think that's where you can definitely get yourself into a 430 00:26:46,710 --> 00:26:48,630 trap, is giving somebody an instant. 431 00:26:50,390 --> 00:26:52,870 Well, my word of advice here is if somebody 432 00:26:54,230 --> 00:26:57,970 wants some type of pay raise, then you 433 00:26:57,970 --> 00:27:00,970 can at least temporarily give 100 pay raise around 434 00:27:02,250 --> 00:27:06,090 measurables. In other words, okay, great. If you do these things and you're 435 00:27:06,090 --> 00:27:09,850 hitting these numbers, then you're going to get 100% of this amount 436 00:27:09,850 --> 00:27:13,650 of money. And if they don't, they're going to know that they might not be 437 00:27:13,650 --> 00:27:17,050 a fit. But, but you can definitely get yourself in a pickle. If you give 438 00:27:17,050 --> 00:27:20,330 them their, you know, their base comp 439 00:27:21,330 --> 00:27:25,170 goes up, then what are you going to do? Exactly. That's a problem. 440 00:27:25,490 --> 00:27:29,290 No, so I, I think like you, you handled that perfectly. That's exactly what I, 441 00:27:29,290 --> 00:27:33,130 What I like to see in organizations when they do this is when they're evaluating 442 00:27:33,130 --> 00:27:36,730 new leaders is, look, just give them, just tell them they're going to be team 443 00:27:36,730 --> 00:27:40,290 lead for a temporary period. That's right. Make them a manager. 444 00:27:40,370 --> 00:27:44,130 Right. Like just, just sort of give them some ceremonial title and certainly 445 00:27:44,130 --> 00:27:47,570 don't give them a raise yet and act. And I think you guys were very 446 00:27:47,570 --> 00:27:50,850 smart to say like, this is a trial period, like, let's try this out. Because 447 00:27:50,850 --> 00:27:54,690 in a lot of cases, especially in technical organizations, people just 448 00:27:54,690 --> 00:27:58,050 look up and think, okay, if I want to make more money and have more 449 00:27:58,050 --> 00:28:01,650 responsibility, well, I guess I need to go into management. And that's not 450 00:28:01,650 --> 00:28:05,010 technically true, but it is true to everyone else sort of by 451 00:28:05,010 --> 00:28:08,810 sentiment and feeling because they don't see other alternatives. And we 452 00:28:08,810 --> 00:28:12,490 don't really do a good job in the industry about talking what is the 453 00:28:12,490 --> 00:28:16,050 career ladder? Like, how can you progress in the organization both in the technical 454 00:28:16,050 --> 00:28:19,840 capacity or into the operation side? So people just like, well, 455 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,400 yeah, I guess I want more money, so I want to be a manager. And 456 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:27,000 then in three months, like their team is Depressed and unhappy 457 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:30,840 with the lack of leadership and how critical their, their new manager 458 00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:34,600 is. The manager is, all he's doing is technical work because he's, 459 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:38,240 he hates all of the management stuff and just wants to avoid it entirely. And 460 00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:41,640 the owner is pissed off because the team is doing poorly and the manager is 461 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:45,360 grumpy and, and just doing technical work. So it's a disaster. Yeah. 462 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:49,210 Tie, tie the money. I, maybe long term, the 463 00:28:49,210 --> 00:28:52,610 comp, the base comp goes up, but definitely tie the, 464 00:28:52,690 --> 00:28:54,930 tie it into some type of deliverables. 465 00:28:56,290 --> 00:28:59,490 I feel like that's the safest way. And aligning your staff 466 00:28:59,970 --> 00:29:03,090 with success for the company means financial success for them. 467 00:29:03,409 --> 00:29:07,050 Yep. So, yeah, I think you're right about. Don't put 468 00:29:07,050 --> 00:29:10,810 yourself into a corner. Yeah. But I think just like the practical way 469 00:29:10,810 --> 00:29:14,230 of having an adult conversation about it, like, let's try this for three months. And 470 00:29:14,230 --> 00:29:16,550 then you check back in, you're like, how are things going? Like, do you like 471 00:29:16,550 --> 00:29:20,310 this? And they're like, yeah, it's awesome. I love it. And you think you 472 00:29:20,310 --> 00:29:23,830 both like. They like it. You feel like they're doing well. Great. Here's a manager 473 00:29:23,830 --> 00:29:26,910 title and here's a, here's, here's a, here's a pay raise to go with that 474 00:29:26,910 --> 00:29:29,870 because you're, you're, you're owning this. I think a lot of people have this, 475 00:29:30,590 --> 00:29:33,950 like, again, like, it's not, it's not a counterintuitive idea 476 00:29:34,350 --> 00:29:38,030 to say, like, if you're giving them more responsibility, you should probably give them 477 00:29:38,030 --> 00:29:41,860 more money. Like, I get why people feel that way, but let's be realistic. Like, 478 00:29:41,860 --> 00:29:45,540 you're just carving out 20% of their day and giving them administrative 479 00:29:45,540 --> 00:29:49,140 duties instead of technical duties. And if they're good at that, then great. Like, we 480 00:29:49,140 --> 00:29:52,900 can increase that and make them a manager. But you know, to, to just 481 00:29:52,900 --> 00:29:56,419 sort of automatically pull trigger and say, well, let's give them an extra 482 00:29:56,419 --> 00:30:00,020 $30,000 and, and this title and then to, 483 00:30:00,020 --> 00:30:03,660 to walk that back is really difficult. Oh, you got to fire them. That's the 484 00:30:03,660 --> 00:30:07,220 only thing they're gonna like. Yeah. You either, like, you can't because if you're going 485 00:30:07,220 --> 00:30:10,900 to like, take away that salary, they're going to quit. Right. And I think that's 486 00:30:11,140 --> 00:30:14,380 the difficult situation. And the other part that you hit on that is massive in 487 00:30:14,380 --> 00:30:18,060 this is how is this perceived by the rest of the company? So what is 488 00:30:18,060 --> 00:30:21,660 the narrative that you want to tell people about why that event happened? I think 489 00:30:21,660 --> 00:30:25,500 is really, really important. So that was super smart of you guys to manage 490 00:30:25,500 --> 00:30:28,460 that and the fact that you asked them straight up of like, how do you 491 00:30:28,460 --> 00:30:32,220 want this to be communicated to the team? I think is a huge benefit 492 00:30:32,220 --> 00:30:36,000 to that. Yeah. Cool. Yeah, I 493 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:39,800 think that's super, like practical around sort of like ways to kind 494 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:43,200 of build that career ladder of getting people into those roles in a safer 495 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:47,040 fashion. The other thing that we wanted to touch on here, 496 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,760 so you've lived in the MSP world as well, and now you're on the vendor 497 00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:54,160 side of the world and you kind of suggested there's a ton of things that 498 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:57,240 you've learned on the vendor side that you would have loved to have known about 499 00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:00,720 marketing as an msp. So this is an area that I think a lot of 500 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:04,380 people traditionally struggle with. If you want to share some 501 00:31:04,700 --> 00:31:07,940 wisdom on the things that you've learned along the way here in that transition, that 502 00:31:07,940 --> 00:31:11,620 would be, I think, really valuable. Yeah. So some background. I 503 00:31:11,620 --> 00:31:15,020 owned an MSP for almost 20 years and 504 00:31:15,580 --> 00:31:19,140 you know, we were small and then I grew to a 505 00:31:19,140 --> 00:31:22,940 pretty nice size, shrunk with COVID kind of 506 00:31:22,940 --> 00:31:25,740 grew it back up, sold it, and 507 00:31:26,540 --> 00:31:30,300 then it transitioned to being an MSP vendor with giant rocket ship. 508 00:31:31,190 --> 00:31:34,990 And it really is amazing. I think part of it isn't just being a 509 00:31:34,990 --> 00:31:38,310 vendor. It's just stepping away from the old company and leaving 510 00:31:38,870 --> 00:31:42,630 that machinery behind and having to rebuild things has really helped 511 00:31:42,710 --> 00:31:46,469 free my mind. The other thing is as a vendor, 512 00:31:46,469 --> 00:31:50,070 I'm really in product sales. As an msp, I was in service sales. 513 00:31:50,630 --> 00:31:54,230 And if MSP that's sub a million, for example, 514 00:31:54,310 --> 00:31:57,670 really, if you're sub. If you're, if you're 3, 4, 5 million or less, 515 00:31:58,150 --> 00:32:01,510 if you think for a second you're not selling yourself as the owner 516 00:32:01,770 --> 00:32:05,330 versus the process, you're lying to yourself. Y. A 10, 517 00:32:05,410 --> 00:32:07,850 15, $20 million MSP sells process, 518 00:32:09,050 --> 00:32:12,570 a 5 million, a $2 million MSP sells the owner 519 00:32:12,570 --> 00:32:16,330 like 100%. Again, you're insane if you don't think that's true. 520 00:32:16,730 --> 00:32:20,170 And so as the vendor, a couple of things is man can 521 00:32:20,170 --> 00:32:23,370 overemphasize good old KPIs. You need to be 522 00:32:23,370 --> 00:32:26,970 tracking if you're going to be going hard on social media. 523 00:32:26,970 --> 00:32:30,450 You need to be tracking your impressions. You need to be tracking what type of 524 00:32:30,450 --> 00:32:34,070 posts work. You can't just hope it works. You right? 525 00:32:34,150 --> 00:32:37,750 I don't even care if you syndicated content. Syndicated content can work great for an 526 00:32:37,750 --> 00:32:41,230 MSP for social media, because it's not. It doesn't rely on 527 00:32:41,230 --> 00:32:44,310 SEO, right? But you need to be tracking what works. 528 00:32:45,030 --> 00:32:48,630 The other thing that I Think msps just 529 00:32:48,630 --> 00:32:52,470 don't want to believe is that cold calling works. Like all 530 00:32:52,470 --> 00:32:55,270 the industry numbers are clear that 531 00:32:56,230 --> 00:32:59,790 it is tedious and it can be expensive either in the 532 00:32:59,790 --> 00:33:03,460 owner's time or a sales exec's time. Cold calling 533 00:33:03,460 --> 00:33:07,300 still works and people don't want 534 00:33:07,300 --> 00:33:10,980 to put the hours into the telephone needed to increase the 535 00:33:10,980 --> 00:33:14,340 size of their customer base. Even as an msp, 536 00:33:14,980 --> 00:33:18,580 when we grew really quickly like before, I got a little lazy about 537 00:33:18,580 --> 00:33:22,180 it. It was because I was on the phone for three hours a day. I 538 00:33:22,180 --> 00:33:25,980 would put a sign on my door making calls and from 9 to 12 I 539 00:33:25,980 --> 00:33:29,500 was just making, I was on a dollar making phone calls. And that's how we 540 00:33:29,500 --> 00:33:32,760 get that initial bump. And so that's definitely a big deal. 541 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:36,800 The, the last thing is people you 542 00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:40,480 have to make a decision if you 543 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:44,240 want cost effective and slow or fast and 544 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:47,320 expensive. Sales is fast and expensive. 545 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:50,280 Marketing is cost effective and slow. 546 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:54,600 And so for us we've been slowly but methodically 547 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:58,200 increasing our marketing presence is starting to just now really hit. 548 00:33:59,270 --> 00:34:02,830 Now to get us here I had to do a bunch of active or proactive 549 00:34:02,830 --> 00:34:06,470 sells. Making phone calls, going to conferences, shaking 550 00:34:06,550 --> 00:34:09,750 hands. It's extremely expensive but it does work. 551 00:34:10,390 --> 00:34:14,070 And over time you need to fund marketing so you 552 00:34:14,070 --> 00:34:17,510 can transition into that more cost effective but slower 553 00:34:17,510 --> 00:34:21,310 burn funnel which is marketing. And I just 554 00:34:21,310 --> 00:34:24,430 don't think people look at marketing properly. They look at it as a three month 555 00:34:24,430 --> 00:34:28,120 game. It's a one, two year game. Yep. 556 00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:32,000 Yeah, I agree. Yeah. Cool. All 557 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:35,760 right, well anything we haven't covered either marketing 558 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:39,520 related or, or people in process, we can, we can dip back. We can talk 559 00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:43,320 KPIs if you want. No, I'm joking. Next time 560 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:46,760 we can talk dashboards. Dashboards 2000. 561 00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:51,160 Well, one thing I would say when it came to building out a, 562 00:34:52,450 --> 00:34:56,250 you know, a track for your staff, something I learned in 563 00:34:56,250 --> 00:35:00,010 the current company, definitely in the last company was you have a sales funnel. 564 00:35:00,010 --> 00:35:03,770 You should always have a hiring funnel. You really should. What 565 00:35:03,770 --> 00:35:07,490 is it? Always be selling? Abs Abi. Always be 566 00:35:07,490 --> 00:35:11,250 interviewing? Yeah, you should always be interviewing. It doesn't be once a day but once 567 00:35:11,250 --> 00:35:14,690 a week. You should really interview once a week somebody for some position 568 00:35:16,290 --> 00:35:20,140 and then the next thing is everybody should have. Even if it's 569 00:35:20,140 --> 00:35:23,220 just one step or promotion path. If somebody's a technical 570 00:35:24,660 --> 00:35:28,380 resource, you're right. Have a technical lead position even 571 00:35:28,380 --> 00:35:32,220 if it's unfilled. If you have a dispatcher, have 572 00:35:32,220 --> 00:35:35,740 a service coordinator position available. If you have a service 573 00:35:35,740 --> 00:35:39,460 coordinator, have a service manager position available. Always 574 00:35:39,460 --> 00:35:42,340 have one slot available to the person 575 00:35:42,980 --> 00:35:46,810 because otherwise they're going to quit when they hit the cap. Yep. 576 00:35:46,890 --> 00:35:50,650 Right. So I would say that. What's next? Right? Like, what is possible? 577 00:35:50,650 --> 00:35:53,770 What could. What should I be striving for? Right. Well, most 578 00:35:53,770 --> 00:35:57,570 msps don't have a next. That's the problem. Like you're saying. Yeah, 579 00:35:57,570 --> 00:36:00,969 exactly. No. Great advice. All right, Dustin, this is 580 00:36:01,210 --> 00:36:04,690 great. Appreciate all the back and forth and. And some 581 00:36:04,690 --> 00:36:08,450 insights. So appreciate your time, man. This was awesome. Thanks for inviting me. I 582 00:36:08,450 --> 00:36:11,930 hope I get to do it with you again. Cool. All right, take care.