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[00:00:00] Antony Whitaker: Welcome to the Grow My Salon Business podcast, where we focus on the business side of hairdressing. I'm your host, Antony Whitaker, and I'll be talking to thought leaders in the hairdressing industry, discussing insightful, provocative, and inspiring ideas that matter. So, get ready to learn, get ready to be challenged, get ready to be inspired, and most importantly, get ready to grow your salon business.
[00:00:31] Antony Whitaker: Today is Gordon Miller, currently CEO of hairbrained.me Gordon brings a wealth of knowledge and experience to us today, acquired over the last 40 odd years, working primarily in the education and media side of the industry. He is a passionate advocate and embracer of all things digital. And today that is where we will focus.
[00:00:53] Antony Whitaker: In today's podcast, the focus is on digital disruption and the four key areas that we will discuss are first, the new channel for professional product distribution being Amazon, primarily at this point in the United States. Secondly, what is the impact and future impact on the salon industry? Thirdly, how some manufacturers are approaching the Amazon model in a positive way for both clients and salons.
[00:01:20] Antony Whitaker: And finally, fourth, what are three things a salon owner should do to capitalize on the in salon take home opportunity? Welcome to the show Gordon Miller. 
[00:01:30] Gordon Miler: Hey, Antony, it's such a pleasure to be back with you. 
[00:01:33] Antony Whitaker: Oh, is that your sexy voice? Gordon? 
[00:01:37] Gordon Miler: That's my podcast. 
[00:01:38] Antony Whitaker: That's your podcast voice. Well, listen, it's, it's, it's great to have had this, uh, opportunity to be talking to you again.
[00:01:44] Antony Whitaker: Gordon. I often hear you talking on podcasts and we've spoken at length before about what I will loosely define as being the whole digital disruption and how it's impacting on the salon industry. And I really want to focus today on talking about the retail component and really specifically Amazon, because there's a lot of, you know, a lot of talk about how professional product is now being sold on Amazon by many manufacturers and what impact that that has on the industry.
[00:02:17] Antony Whitaker: So, yeah. So that's where I want to put our focus. Um, I, I know you're a, a font of knowledge when it comes to talking about that. So, uh, you know, let's, let's dive in there. Um, what's my opening question going to be? I suppose it's really going to be, um, you know, how do you see that currently impacting, uh, the salon industry?
[00:02:37] Antony Whitaker: Yeah. And what do you think's driving it? 
[00:02:39] Gordon Miler: I'm going to start with the last part, you know, which I, I think what's driving it is the bigger behavior, I guess, as the behavior of the, of the collective, everybody, we are plugged in 24/7, you know, digital social, um, if you look at, you know, the, the innovation that came out of apple, you know, that just supercharged our lives with smartphones and then ripple out from their Facebook, Instagram, all these things are interconnected.
[00:03:05] Gordon Miler: Yeah. Um, Amazon and, you know, the conversations that happen across all these platforms, driving more and more people to Amazon and as our lives get busier and busier, we look for efficiencies in our lives. And I think that Amazon is an efficient way of buying certain things. I ordered some dog food this morning.
[00:03:22] Gordon Miler: Um, so I don't have to carry the heavy bag, you know, two blocks. Um, and I got a 5 better price. So I, so I think I believe that the core of this is, is at a busy time in most people's lives, there's efficiencies that are making it, you know, easy, convenient, um, and more and more our friends are doing it and we learn from our friends and we emulate our friends and our peers and.
[00:03:44] Gordon Miler: So, I just think there's a massive shift having said that all the stats are that it's a really small number out of the larger shopping data last I saw about 15 percent of all retail was happening online and I saw I read on an airplane last night a really interesting story about online and retail and specifically in the beauty category and the VP of L'Oreal was one of those interviewed and he said that.
[00:04:12] Gordon Miler: They just hit the milestone L'Oreal of consumer mass L'Oreal and professional collectively. They were at 10 percent of all sales happening online. Um, it's a very small number. Um, and I, I think, you know, concern. I understand fear, um, not so much. 
[00:04:31] Antony Whitaker: Okay, a couple of things I want to pick up on straight away.
[00:04:35] Antony Whitaker: First of all, I did forget to say this. I should have said this at the beginning is that, um, as you know, as I've said before, a lot of my audience will be American based. A lot of them will also be European based, Australian, New Zealand, whatever. And so, although we're going to talk today very much about Amazon, which Is, um, obviously it's a global company, but that actually only just started in the Australian market.
[00:04:58] Antony Whitaker: And I just want to make sure that our audience are aware that, um, uh, although they're all, you know, the 1 company that they operate very differently in different countries. So, the things that you're going to talk about today are American centric just because Amazon and just because manufacturers are doing these things in the United States.
[00:05:18] Antony Whitaker: Doesn't mean that they'll necessarily be doing them in, uh, in Europe, Australia, the UK, et cetera. But having said that often what you find is, uh, you know, America in terms of, uh, technology, et cetera, often, um, you know, is the, the sort of the forerunner. So, what's happening in the United States is often, uh, an indication of what's going to happen elsewhere.
[00:05:43] Antony Whitaker: So, um, That's an interesting number. You just said 15 percent of all retail is done online. Um, obviously that figure is growing, but from a retail perspective, I mean, I, you know, deal a lot face to face [00:06:00] with hairdressers and often when you talk to them about retail and you know, one of the questions I'll ask addresses is, is why don't some hairdressers retail
[00:06:09] Gordon Miler: why don't why don't most hairdressers reach?
[00:06:11] Antony Whitaker: Yeah, exactly. And probably, uh, you know, there's like a top 10 list of answers that they give and the latest favorite is, well, all the clients buy it on Amazon, you know, and as I point out to them, listen, you know, uh, all the clients don't buy it on Amazon and they're very quick. Quick to always recount some story about, you know, well, I had this client in last week and, you know, I suggested she bought X, Y, Z, and she said, Oh, I'll get it on Amazon.
[00:06:39] Antony Whitaker: It's cheaper. And it's, it's sort of that thing of saying, listen, just because Mary last week did that does not indicate that every client is doing that. It just means that some clients are doing that. So, I think it's important that, that as an industry, we acknowledge that, that it's not everybody, it's some clients.
[00:06:55] Antony Whitaker: And also. You know, I think we could both acknowledge that. Okay. It's 15 percent today. Uh, what was it 5 years ago? It was probably half that number. What might it be in 5 years’ time? Well, it may well, well be double that number. Who knows? But it is, it is very much a consumer trend. Uh, that isn't just affecting our industry.
[00:07:15] Antony Whitaker: It's, it's how we live our lives today. As you just 
[00:07:18] Gordon Miler: said, dog food. Well, here's a tidbit that I think, you know, adds some really interesting context. And this was in the same article that I was actually a, um, a really in-depth article by WWD, Women's Wear Daily and Nordstrom's president, one of the Nordstrom family members said that all of their research, which extends beyond Nordstrom's and the things that they pay attention to.
[00:07:41] Gordon Miler: Tells them very clearly that online sales are being driven by in store experiences, which is fascinating. Yeah, so they find that the majority of their online sales are to Nordstrom's customers who are going into the store, who are shopping like I do, wander around, look at things, perhaps not. Be in the mood to buy, perhaps I'm going to the movies.
[00:08:04] Gordon Miler: I don't want to carry something. Um, I'm a casual shopper, but I happen to be a big Nordstrom's fan and I make most of my purchases from Nordstrom's online now, but I, but I go in the stores. That's fascinating. 
[00:08:17] Antony Whitaker: Yeah, the interesting thing is, I mean, I'm not sure. How much there is a direct correlation between department stores and salons.
[00:08:26] Antony Whitaker: There is a correlation, but, you know, I was reading a thing here in the Sunday Times recently, and it said that last year, 2018, that in the UK, that 84, 000 retail jobs were lost and that they're predicting. This year, 2019, they're predicting 150, 000 jobs in retail will be lost. Um, yeah, now they're UK figures.
[00:08:49] Antony Whitaker: I mean, I, as you know, I spend a lot of time, um, in the U S and I know there are challenges with other big stores. I think the most recent one was Sears, which is, uh, you know, taken a, a significant tumble closing lots of stores, laying off lots of people, et cetera. And it's often the argument that they talk about is that.
[00:09:09] Antony Whitaker: That it's the online business. It's ruining their business model. But as you were just saying, when you go into the stores, what they're doing is they're cutting their business back to the bone to try and compete with Amazon, because obviously Amazon don't have, you know, a downtown Manhattan or Chicago or London or Sydney, you know, rents and rates, et cetera.
[00:09:31] Antony Whitaker: So, they're, they're able to undercut. So, what the, okay. Department stores are doing is they're cutting back on service and on people. And that's actually having the reverse effect to what they're intending, because then you and I go into a store. And because the service, because the experience is so bad, we'd rather buy online and that we are a reflection of a lot of consumers in that context.
[00:09:54] Gordon Miler: Well, and also they are in the business of selling stuff and we are not, you know, salons are in the business of selling service and experience. With a very small slice of the pie related to retail on average, you, you and I know it's, you know, it's about 5, 6 percent of the total revenue of the average salon is coming from retail.
[00:10:15] Gordon Miler: So that means a lot of things to me. It means 1st and foremost, there's a growth opportunity because some of our favorite salons are doing 2025, even 30 percent of their total revenue, but for the average again, it's, it's a small number. So that means the potential impact on the business is a small number.
[00:10:31] Gordon Miler: And in fact, you know, the average salon is doing, let's say, 250, 000 in sales. And if it's, you know, 6 percent that, you know, the total retail business, you know, is, is not even 20, 000 and the profitability of that retail business, let's say as a third is 6, 000. So, what's that risk and what all this energy and concern about, oh, my gosh, what's happening is about a really tiny slice of the pie.
[00:10:54] Gordon Miler: It's an important slice. And again i think you know um a we don't need the level of stress we have collectively but but be out of all of this or so much opportunity, you know and again going back to you know our point of difference you know I’m being in the experience business and being I hope in the educational business that relates to consulting with clients, I’m helping them understand to make decisions nobody can be the salon that does it right and if they choose to buy online here's the good news most of the manufacturers.
[00:11:24] Gordon Miler: Are understanding this new dynamic and they're incentivizing salons by making sure that they get something out of the sale so I’m without having the inventory the product so we live in everything's changing it's really complicated I think and but I think sometimes you know we get emotional about the wrong things.
[00:11:43] Gordon Miler: I think there's a lot of confusion about the bigger picture of what all this means for us on especially when you do the math 
[00:11:50] Antony Whitaker: yeah, exactly i mean are you familiar with the. Uh, the approach that Paul Mitchell, John Paul Mitchell systems have taken in the US 
[00:11:59] Gordon Miler: very much and very excited about it. 
[00:12:01] Antony Whitaker: Yeah, I am too.
[00:12:01] Antony Whitaker: I mean, I know that, uh, that, you know, and our listeners know that I have a great collaboration with John Paul Mitchell systems. Uh, feel free to talk about what other brands are doing as well with this, but, um, you know, to give people an insight into why they have decided to sell through Amazon, you know, like most hairdressers, I would have been fairly, um, well, my initial reaction would have been negative about it.
[00:12:27] Antony Whitaker: But once I understood why they're doing it, I'm a total convert because I actually think that what they've done is fantastic. So, you know, for anyone listening who isn't aware and again, I will just reinforce this because I don't want distributors in Australia and America, sorry in Canada or the or Europe and the UK thinking that Paul Mitchell are doing this in their neck of the woods.
[00:12:50] Antony Whitaker: This is what they're doing in America and doing it really well. And basically, what was happening in America? Was it through Amazon? There were two and a half thousand. I get your head around that number different people selling Paul Mitchell products through Amazon. So... 
[00:13:09] Gordon Miler: unauthorized, unauthorized. 
[00:13:10] Antony Whitaker: Yeah. So, so, you know, Paul Mitchell therefore have no control.
[00:13:15] Antony Whitaker: Well, they have no control over the price. They have no control over the, the quality of the product. Some of it is bound to be forgery. Uh, you know, they have no control over whether it's out of date product. Um, so, you know, they made the decision to, you know, to take control of it because it's not something that they could stop.
[00:13:36] Antony Whitaker: So, what they did was they basically said to Amazon, we will sell through Amazon on the condition that you do not sell any Paul Mitchell product, John Paul Mitchell systems product that you get from anyone else except from us. It has to come from us. So that was one condition. The second condition was that they had to sell it.
[00:13:55] Antony Whitaker: At the recommended retail price, so therefore they're not undercutting what salons can sell it for. So, from my perspective, I just look at that and I go, well, that has got to be good for the industry. That's got to be good for consumers because of the convenience factor. And I'm not on any commission from Amazon to promote the business model.
[00:14:16] Antony Whitaker: But the next step in that is this local associate’s program that a lot of people are now doing with Amazon, and again, I think it's a really cool thing because, you know, for people who aren't aware what the, the local associate’s program is, it's where you basically you sign up to Amazon and you have a store on Amazon.
[00:14:40] Antony Whitaker: Uh, they give you a unique URL, uh, they manage all the. All the back end and that URL you give to clients, whether it's in it through whatever medium you want, you can put it on your business cards. You can put it on your till receipts. You can put it on anything you want. And it basically takes you direct to your own branded Paul Mitchell store housed on Amazon.
[00:15:08] Antony Whitaker: And so, you're not having to carry the stock. So, you don't have all this money tied up in inventory. You can have the full range every size. You don't have to ship it and you get a commission of up to 20 percent of the sale. Now, I know that in theory, you will usually be making a lot more than 20%. But all of a sudden now you have salons that are saying, okay, so I can reduce the, 
[00:15:33] Antony Whitaker: the physical wall space that I'm allowing for retail, I can now put another mirror and another chair there. Plus, the benefit of not having to carry lines of stock that aren't moving and have all that money tied up in inventory. Again, lots of positives here and even, if the client, because as you said, clients are buying on Amazon only anyway, so why not have them buying from our unique branded store on Amazon so that we're still getting the commission?
[00:16:02] Antony Whitaker: Because if they don't buy it in the salon today, and they're sitting on the couch and 3 weeks’ time thinking, oh, I've run out of shampoo, whatever they will go on their laptop and they'll go onto Amazon and they will order it. But if we've given them a business card or whatever, with this URL on it or QR code that takes them direct to our page, then whether they're in the salon or not, we're still getting the commission on it.
[00:16:23] Antony Whitaker: And I just think that's brilliant. What are your thoughts? 
[00:16:26] Gordon Miler: Yeah, no, I. I agree, you know, and I, I think to me, um, I still go back to the, again, retail is a big challenge for the industry. It has been for years and years and years. I think that any way we can get professional product into the hands of a client, um, with integrity to your point of authorized selling compensation to salons, compensation, the stylist, it's all good.
[00:16:51] Gordon Miler: Um, we know that the average consumer, buy large numbers does not buy product and salons. They just don't the average. The average person uses mass product. Um, so I would say there's another dynamic here, which is Amazon is a massive marketing machine on top of being a place where people go to purchase because marketing comes 1st, so the number of people who are going to be exposed to professional product and already have by marketing through amazon in the last year, I would say is just exponential compared to what it'd be.
[00:17:22] Gordon Miler: So there's there's another big opportunity in this and that is. Marketing to the masses, which really the industry has done very little of over the years. Um, we, we were kind of, uh, the best kept secret to many people because, you know, we're not in, we haven't historically been in the magazines. Um, jump on mental systems is an exception.
[00:17:39] Gordon Miler: You know, they've had a lot of consumer ads over the years, but collectively, most brands have not. So, I think it's all good. I think there's just so much opportunity in it. But I think again, we get a little bit histrionic at times. Um, I believe when we take a big step back and look at the math and look at what we're not doing and what we're not doing is being successful and selling professional product to the, to the, to the masses in America.
[00:18:03] Gordon Miler: And I think that these changes. Hopefully get us excited, even if we're pissed off, excited in a way that makes us start to think harder about how we can up our retail game, whether it's in in the salon, which I still think that's where everything starts or online. 
[00:18:16] Antony Whitaker: Yeah, what do you see other brands doing?
[00:18:20] Antony Whitaker: Because I know on, on the professional beauty page on Amazon, there's lots of other brands there. Yes. And there are brands that are also approaching it external to the Amazon model. Um, what, what are some things that you see that are exciting that you see other brands doing that are sort of, you know, approaching retail in a more modern way?
[00:18:43] Gordon Miler: A combination of efforts, and I think everybody's watching one another, the brands to see what, you know, really, I think, rings true to the salon to the hairdresser, you know, what gets the best kind of reviews, if you will, and from a practice perspective, and then, of course, results. Um, so, you know, some brands are, are literally making these, this a part of their loyalty program, where they're giving loyalty points against sales to the masses, and they have backend systems that allow them to do that.
[00:19:10] Gordon Miler: We have other brands that are helping to create customized landing pages that are so long specific almost like websites that are being driven by the brands in terms of the back end giving the local salon a brand of its own from a retail perspective and everything's warehoused by the brand and fulfilled by the brand think we're starting to see talk of this from some of the distributors as well and then we have some brands that frankly are just out there selling and they're not necessary have any sort of compensation model but some of these are luxury brands and I’ve talked to some really fascinating and smart salon owners who have kind of taken a wait and see attitude and have seen their sales increase significantly.
[00:19:55] Gordon Miler: Over the period of time that those brands have been advertised and sold on amazon they've not seen any decrease in sales they've seen increases and they believe that it's because of the marketing they don't believe so they don't believe there's a cannibalization they believe that these brands putting themselves out in a positive way and making themselves available for sale
[00:20:13] Gordon Miler: is maybe not their favorite thing but when all is said and done, they're actually seeing net positive returns on it so it's kind of hard to be mad at the brand 
[00:20:21] Antony Whitaker: exactly I’ve actually got a, you know real story about that and that I’ve got someone that I’ve been working with this got a salon in new jersey and that the retail sales weren't great beforehand and amongst other things they have had a, A significant increase in their retail and they actually put it down to the fact that they use Paul Mitchell.
[00:20:47] Antony Whitaker: They put it down to the fact that the, that the, the John Paul Mitchell systems products and now, um, on Amazon and the reason they're saying that is that what, what used to happen is that either the stylist. You know, had made assumptions that clients would buy it on Amazon, so they didn't bother trying to promote it what they're now saying what the stylists are now saying when they take a client to the front desk, you know, they're recommending the product and they're saying to them that it's now available on Amazon at the same price.
[00:21:18] Antony Whitaker: So, the clients are then saying, oh, well, okay, I'll buy it now because it's now more convenient for them. Whereas in the past, you know, uh, it was more. Convenient, um, or cost effective in a lot of cases for them to buy it from Amazon when they left the salon based on a recommendation that a stylist had given them.
[00:21:37] Antony Whitaker: Now that it's on Amazon, just using that brand as an example, and it is the same price as what it is in the salon. They've actually found that their in salon retail, uh, has at least doubled and they're putting it down to that. So again, you know, it might be a. Well, I'm sure it's not a one-off scenario, but it's interesting to see the impact that it's having is not always negative.
[00:22:01] Antony Whitaker: And it's not always what people think it's going to be that it can, you know, sort of blindside you with a, with a very pleasant surprise. If it's gone about the right way. 
[00:22:11] Gordon Miler: Well, I love that there's a tactic involved here, right? That they have decided to add. Oh, a little bit of mojo to the process of getting that person to the desk and implementing, you know, the effort to retail and they're tying it to what's happening on Amazon.
[00:22:27] Gordon Miler: So, in other words, instead of making this assumption that we all can be guilty of of what that other person is thinking, and then not making our best effort, they are instead, you know, bringing it into the conversation, you know, they've done their homework, if you will, of course, they're part of the family, so they know this, but even if you're not, you know, if you're selling a brand.
[00:22:48] Gordon Miler: You know do your homework see what is available for online is it truly a different price is it not and if you can say with integrity that hey here's the reason you can get an online of course and here's the good and bad of that where you can get it right now and that's a tactic and retail. That I think is important to add to the conversation and I think whether it is the old school diversion and going back to what you said in the beginning, you know, Antony, the, um, um, product that, you know, is unauthorized is often, you know, fake, you know, um, we don't know how old it is.
[00:23:22] Gordon Miler: There's all kinds of stuff. And if I was had nothing else. To, to combat, you know, my concerns, I would bring that into my conversations. 
[00:23:32] Antony Whitaker: Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Um, and, and that is more prevalent in some countries than others, you know, whether it's diverted stock, old packaging, out of date stock, or. Uh, forgery.
[00:23:43] Antony Whitaker: I know, particularly in the Asian countries, there is a lot of forged product. Um, it always surprised me. Why would anyone bother to do a forgery of a tubic tint or a bottle of shampoo? But they very definitely do because the, uh, you know, that the margins in there, uh, are massive. And obviously when that is sold online, um, the consumer
[00:24:05] Antony Whitaker: has no protection, and it doesn't for 1 minute imply that I don't mean to imply for 1 minute that all product that's bought online that isn't direct from the manufacturer is forgery because it quite blatantly isn't, but there's always that that element of risk. 
[00:24:21] Gordon Miler: And you know, but let me add to it again, there's so many tactical opportunities, you know, even if the price is, you know, similar or, or, or again, the same, you know, you've got that person in front of you to work out promotions, you know, that you spend a certain amount of money and you get a little something free, or you get a comb or you, you get, you know, your next time you come in, you're going to get, um, uh, conditioning treatment free because you brought product today.
[00:24:46] Gordon Miler: Amazon can't do that, but it requires. Thought it requires a plan and it requires execution. 
[00:24:53] Antony Whitaker: Yeah, definitely. I always like to leave people with, you know, some really tangible things as, as, as takeaways that they can, you know, take from these podcasts. If you're a salon owner listening to this or a hairdresser, a stylist, listening to this, what would you want them to take away from it?
[00:25:10] Antony Whitaker: What are three things that you would say to them that if you're trying to. You know capitalize on the opportunity that professional retail represents this is what you should be doing what would what would three things be sorry to put you on the spot but I’m sure you can handle it. 
[00:25:26] Gordon Miler: You know I did I was with a group of people yesterday I did a presentation and I love to share quotes I do it online and I always use them in my presentations and.
[00:25:37] Gordon Miler: Um, 1 of my favorites is, um, don't be judgmental. Be curious. And it's, it's from Walt Whitman and old school poet of great fame. Um, and I would, I would apply that to this idea. I think there's so much judgment, you know, around on this topic that is uninformed or. Um, perhaps this has half the story, doesn't know all the data behind the things that we've talked about that.
[00:26:01] Gordon Miler: The problem is perhaps not as big as people think it is. And at the same time, when it comes to curiosity, that's the step back and really look and do your homework and figure out what's really happening and then figure out how you're going to deal with it. Like I just mentioned, you know, there's whether it's promotions or things that Amazon can't do, what can you do?
[00:26:19] Gordon Miler: And that leads to, you know, my second bullet point, which would be. They can't be behind them at the chair, you know, or beside them at the bowl. Um, you know, your customers, um, you have such an opportunity to educate them and to create an experience that can't be replicated by an online shop. And I think, you know, that in and of itself is, is the greatest power that hairdressers have and then connecting it to tactics, because going back to the very beginning of this conversation, most salons, most stylists don't do a very good job with retail.
[00:26:53] Gordon Miler: And you and I know as people who study this stuff that those who do the right things see the retail sales grow so and it's it really begins with great consultation great experience and a great connection with each and every client so I think that's important and then. Lastly, I would say, you know, again, you know, the online stuff, there's an efficiency to it that just makes it attractive to many of us.
[00:27:18] Gordon Miler: You know, I live an extremely busy life. I love the online stuff. I buy things almost every day online. So, I am one of those people that if I'm sitting in your chair. You should be concerned about my relationship with my hairdresser is such that, you know, I would only buy from him because I feel like I'm cheating on him.
[00:27:35] Gordon Miler: If I don't, but part of the key next step to this, you know, is to make it easy to make it frictionless. If you will, um, you and I were talking before he said, that's the buzzword of the year. And it is for all kinds of reasons, because we want. Less hassle in getting things you know we want to be able to make it easy simple fast so don't make me wander around your reception area, you know bombarded with eighty different skews to try to figure out what to do with my hair part of the frictionless experience you give me and just with confidence and the right information get me to the purchase or if you're part of you know we talk about here.
[00:28:15] Gordon Miler: That or another brand that has a program that helps you to be a part of the online space then yes, promote that to your client another frictionless opportunity but i would say you know this is maybe an extra bullet point here but last point. I would say, you know, knowledge is power. One of my favorites, you know, knowledge is power.
[00:28:35] Gordon Miler: There is absolutely no doubt that this is a truism. And if I was behind the chair for the next week, I would ask every single client somehow in a conversation about what their online buying experience is like, you know, just casually, you know, it's like, hey, I've been reading a lot about Amazon, you know, even affecting, you know, our industry.
[00:28:55] Gordon Miler: And I'm really curious, you know, it's like, you buy online, you know, like where do you buy? What do you buy? What kind of stuff do you buy? Do you buy any of your beauty products? I would spend a week and you know, if you see 20, 30, 40 clients, now you've done some homework, you've done some research, you have some actual context.
[00:29:10] Gordon Miler: That's not just some of the things we've talked about, which I think provide context, you've got real information from the people who sit in your chairs. You might be surprised by what you learn, but at minimum, I think you can start to. Fine tune your approach and your thought process around retail based on the actuality of the people who come to visit you.
[00:29:30] Antony Whitaker: Well, that's some, some great insights there. Okay, Gordon. So, we need to be looking at wrapping up in a minute or two, but I just want to ask you one final question on that. And that is, where do you see it going? So, you know, if we could go 5 years into the future, what do you think the professional retail model will look like?
[00:29:48] Gordon Miler: I think it's going to look predominantly the way it looks today to be quite honest. I think, you know, we will absolutely see these numbers continue to increase. I think, you know, everybody's trying to figure it out. Um, I go back to the comment by Nordstrom's, which was the majority of their online sales are being driven by, you know, real world experience.
[00:30:11] Gordon Miler: And I think again, nobody does it better than salons. I'm professional manufacturers understand the importance of being connected to so on to compensating salons you know for the retail retail effort so there's gonna be an evolution I don't think it's going to be as dramatic as some people think it's gonna be I think if there's any really significant evolution to be concerned about it's the development of.
[00:30:33] Gordon Miler: These new up and coming indie brands that are mass marketed. I think, you know, we have more concerns as to the quality of innovation and product development that's happening outside the professional beauty space. That worries me, um, more so than how we get products to people, because I believe the industry will figure that part out and I believe everybody will be compensated in time in a proper way, because that those things together will.
[00:30:57] Gordon Miler: Take the industry farther or not at the end of the day is what everybody's worried about, but big picture, long term, 5 years from now, in the mass market brands of high, high quality, especially in the, in the masstige and in the luxury space that would keep me up at night. 
[00:31:12] Antony Whitaker: Okay, well, that sounds interesting.
[00:31:13] Antony Whitaker: We have to dig into that more at a later date. Okay. So, uh, Gordon, where can people connect with you? Where can they find you? I know you're very uh, big on social media, and I'm sure some people, uh, especially on this side of the world, maybe aren't that familiar with you would like to find out more about you.
[00:31:29] Antony Whitaker: So, tell everyone where they can find you. I will say, well, I have already said in the introduction that you are the CEO of Hairbrained, so give your podcast, give your role at Hairbrained, give the web, web addresses, social media addresses, give them to our audience so they know how they can best connect with you.
[00:31:48] Gordon Miler: Okay, I'll keep it simple for everybody. So, um, hair brained amazing online and social based community. That's hair brained with an E. D. on the end of it. Hair brained underscore official on Instagram and on Facebook. We are, we are hair brained. Um, simply put, um, you can find me on Instagram. Um, I go by Gordon M, but only with one.
[00:32:09] Gordon Miler: Oh, so it's G. O. R. D. N. as a Nancy M as in Mary. That's, that's me on Instagram. And I try to to inspire people on that page and share my love for a lot of things in this industry and, and and also coffee, which is my one of my other passions. My podcast thank you for mentioning it. And you've been one of our most popular guests and we're going to do another one soon.
[00:32:31] Gordon Miler: And it's called hairbrained conversations and you can find it on the Apple podcast platform or just Google it and you'll find it. We've got over 60 episodes. And. With some amazingly brilliant people, some of my best friends from Paul Mitchell, including Robert and Colin Caruso and some others. So check that out.
[00:32:47] Gordon Miler: And, um, yeah, and you can DM me. I respond to DMS on Instagram. It's a great, easy way to, to get ahold of me. Yeah, that's the best way to find me. 
[00:32:55] Antony Whitaker: Fantastic. So any final words, Gordon, before we park company. 
[00:32:59] Gordon Miler: I go back to that, you know, be curious statement, you know, and not judgmental. And I, I think it's, um, one of the biggest challenges we have today as an industry is the world is moving very quickly and we have a lot of innovation.
[00:33:11] Gordon Miler: We have a lot of disruption happening all around us and, and within the industry, whether it's business models, whether it's. Things like we've talked about here today, whether it's the consumers themselves, they're all changing and I think, you know, it's easy to judge and it's, it's, it's harder work to truly be curious and to do the work and figure out where things are and where they're, where they're going.
[00:33:31] Gordon Miler: And I, I think if you embrace it, it becomes fun and interesting and empowering. So, um. Don't be judgmental. Be curious. 
[00:33:39] Antony Whitaker: Great. They're fantastic. Final words. Gordon. I would look forward to the next opportunity we get to connect, but for today, thank you very much for being part of the grow my salon business podcast.
[00:33:49] Gordon Miler: Thank you, Antony. Congratulations on this podcast. I am so excited for you sharing more and more of yourself and your guests. I'm looking forward to it. 
[00:33:57] Antony Whitaker: Thanks. 
[00:34:01] Antony Whitaker: Thank you for listening to today's podcast. If you'd like to connect with us, you'll find us at grow my salon business. com or on Facebook and Instagram at grow my salon business. And if you enjoyed tuning into our podcast, make sure that you subscribe, like, and share it with your friends until next time.
[00:34:19] Antony Whitaker: This is Antony Whitaker wishing you continued success.