1 00:00:12,417 --> 00:00:16,287 Anja: I am very pleased to say that joining me today is a local 2 00:00:16,527 --> 00:00:22,737 Bitcoin Dale Warburton Dale has a podcast called Why Bitcoin Show. 3 00:00:23,037 --> 00:00:27,387 And if you go to his website, why bitcoin show.com, you'll find a 4 00:00:27,387 --> 00:00:30,957 great range of calculators that I keep, uh, referring people to. 5 00:00:30,987 --> 00:00:32,397 Welcome to Honest Money Dale. 6 00:00:33,627 --> 00:00:34,437 Dale: Thanks Anya. 7 00:00:34,437 --> 00:00:35,592 Real, real pleasure to be here. 8 00:00:36,822 --> 00:00:39,132 Anja: I love that you came prepared with a microphone. 9 00:00:40,692 --> 00:00:42,457 Dale: I'd have to be here as a podcaster. 10 00:00:42,477 --> 00:00:43,722 I'd be pretty amateur at this. 11 00:00:44,502 --> 00:00:44,832 Anja: Yeah. 12 00:00:45,192 --> 00:00:49,722 So you've recently released a book called No Tenants No Troubles. 13 00:00:49,752 --> 00:00:54,342 Um, it is making a case for why Bitcoin instead of real estate. 14 00:00:54,342 --> 00:00:56,622 So that's what I wanted to talk to you about today. 15 00:00:56,952 --> 00:00:59,257 Um, tell us about the book. 16 00:01:00,582 --> 00:01:01,032 Dale: Brilliant. 17 00:01:01,032 --> 00:01:06,012 Well, I think the, the origin of it was I thought to myself I wanted to make 18 00:01:06,042 --> 00:01:08,652 a, um, some sort of lasting impact. 19 00:01:08,652 --> 00:01:12,072 And so much of what we do in the podcast world is, I think, quite ephemeral 20 00:01:12,072 --> 00:01:15,852 in the sense that no one's gonna be listening to what I have to say, 21 00:01:16,092 --> 00:01:17,747 maybe six months out, 12 months out. 22 00:01:17,747 --> 00:01:17,767 It's not. 23 00:01:18,987 --> 00:01:20,997 In the cosmos of time, it's kind of irrelevant. 24 00:01:20,997 --> 00:01:24,837 Whereas with a book, hopefully if you've done your job, it'll 25 00:01:24,837 --> 00:01:28,107 stand the test of time and it can actually age quite well and. 26 00:01:30,357 --> 00:01:35,007 Being a, uh, kind of, I've worked in real estate, uh, in one capacity 27 00:01:35,007 --> 00:01:36,447 or another for more than a decade. 28 00:01:36,897 --> 00:01:39,597 I know the asset class really well. 29 00:01:39,597 --> 00:01:42,117 The only thing I never did was kind of property development, but 30 00:01:42,117 --> 00:01:45,657 everything else I did, I also got a master's degree in real estate. 31 00:01:45,657 --> 00:01:47,847 So I get real estate. 32 00:01:47,907 --> 00:01:51,927 I get why people have invested it and why people love it so much. 33 00:01:52,497 --> 00:01:54,117 Particularly here in Australia. 34 00:01:54,117 --> 00:01:58,347 And so wanting to make some sort of lasting impact in the space, I thought, 35 00:01:58,347 --> 00:02:00,147 well, why not just write a book? 36 00:02:00,147 --> 00:02:02,817 Well, I got nudge to do it as as always, and. 37 00:02:03,972 --> 00:02:07,812 Essentially the book is a high level overview of saying, look, this is 38 00:02:07,812 --> 00:02:09,642 what is happening in Australia. 39 00:02:09,642 --> 00:02:12,852 This is why real estate is really expensive and in many parts of the 40 00:02:12,852 --> 00:02:18,612 world, this is, these are the kind of, uh, main drawbacks of real estate. 41 00:02:18,702 --> 00:02:21,882 Um, when it comes to, um, investing in them. 42 00:02:21,882 --> 00:02:25,362 Not just owning them to live in, because that's a very different thing. 43 00:02:25,362 --> 00:02:26,652 That's like a lifestyle asset. 44 00:02:26,652 --> 00:02:31,122 I'm talking about real estate as an investment and then, um, 45 00:02:31,152 --> 00:02:32,982 comparing that to Bitcoin and just. 46 00:02:33,342 --> 00:02:36,372 Having a look at all the different qualities that Bitcoin has 47 00:02:36,372 --> 00:02:37,827 relative to real estate and. 48 00:02:39,162 --> 00:02:41,472 If I'm honest, there's no comparison. 49 00:02:41,472 --> 00:02:43,692 It's the easiest decision in the world. 50 00:02:43,932 --> 00:02:48,432 However, you know, for a lot of people, um, that's not that obvious. 51 00:02:48,432 --> 00:02:53,622 So my goal wasn't to talk to Bitcoiners, so, uh, it was more to try 52 00:02:53,622 --> 00:02:58,107 and talk to investors in real estate because I think we need to try and. 53 00:02:59,392 --> 00:03:03,952 Break the Fiat Matrix real estate mind of these people and just kind of go, Hey, 54 00:03:03,952 --> 00:03:05,962 once you see this, you can't unsee it. 55 00:03:06,472 --> 00:03:11,452 And so my book, no Tenants, no Troubles, the Case for Digital Gold of a Real 56 00:03:11,452 --> 00:03:15,862 Estate deliberately left the word Bitcoin out to not scare away these. 57 00:03:16,812 --> 00:03:21,432 Property Maxes, um, is an attempt to try and bridge that gap. 58 00:03:21,552 --> 00:03:22,422 Anja: Yeah, I love it. 59 00:03:22,422 --> 00:03:26,382 And like I have heard from so many people, obviously in the Bitcoin 60 00:03:26,382 --> 00:03:31,152 space or just new to it, that they are slowly moving out of property. 61 00:03:31,772 --> 00:03:33,092 And into Bitcoin. 62 00:03:33,392 --> 00:03:37,952 Um, there is, there's a boomer in in Queensland that I quite referred to a 63 00:03:37,952 --> 00:03:41,732 lot on, on this podcast, but he's such a good case study and you know, he's 64 00:03:41,732 --> 00:03:46,652 someone who's invested, um, into real estate his whole life and has only come 65 00:03:46,772 --> 00:03:49,622 across Bitcoin, I think since 2017. 66 00:03:49,972 --> 00:03:54,022 And yeah, he's definitely kind of seeing the long-term values. 67 00:03:54,022 --> 00:03:57,922 He's got like 10 grandkids, so he's like, bitcoin's the way to go. 68 00:03:58,252 --> 00:04:01,942 Have you had any early feedback from, from the readers of your book? 69 00:04:02,812 --> 00:04:06,712 Dale: Yes, and surprisingly like, um, from places I wouldn't expect. 70 00:04:06,712 --> 00:04:11,602 So like, um, I've heard readers reach out, you know, from Canada and the uk, um, 71 00:04:12,112 --> 00:04:14,182 uh, in particular, which is interesting. 72 00:04:14,182 --> 00:04:16,902 And just to say like, oh yeah, it is very well written and like. 73 00:04:17,247 --> 00:04:20,367 A cogent concise case. 74 00:04:20,367 --> 00:04:22,047 It's like I wanted to make it accessible. 75 00:04:22,047 --> 00:04:24,987 There's, you know, I love Ole and she's my number one person, but that 76 00:04:24,987 --> 00:04:29,547 broken money is a monster and you just can't give people broken money, even 77 00:04:29,547 --> 00:04:31,467 if it's written like incredibly well. 78 00:04:32,007 --> 00:04:33,777 Um, it's too much work. 79 00:04:33,777 --> 00:04:37,497 People need stuff that's easy, digestible, so. 80 00:04:38,332 --> 00:04:41,722 That's been the main feedback, said like, look, you've laid it out really well. 81 00:04:41,782 --> 00:04:43,912 Um, I think you make a good case for it. 82 00:04:44,002 --> 00:04:47,752 And what I ask people to do is to also just share the book 83 00:04:47,752 --> 00:04:49,132 then with family or friends. 84 00:04:49,552 --> 00:04:52,522 Um, if it's obviously a physical copy, it's a lot easier. 85 00:04:52,522 --> 00:04:55,732 So yeah, it's been, it's been quite rewarding thus far. 86 00:04:55,762 --> 00:04:59,662 Um, I must confess, I am one of the worst promoters on earth. 87 00:04:59,662 --> 00:05:02,092 I don't know if Australia has, um. 88 00:05:02,477 --> 00:05:08,657 Infected me with tall poppy syndrome, but I, I haven't been sort of screaming 89 00:05:08,657 --> 00:05:14,477 from the hilltops and, um, I think, yeah, I've been criticized by some people. 90 00:05:14,477 --> 00:05:19,157 I love for not actually doing enough in terms of getting it out there 91 00:05:19,157 --> 00:05:24,342 because, uh, you can't just stick a book out there and go, Hey, so, um, but. 92 00:05:25,707 --> 00:05:29,187 Of, of all the sales I've done so far, I've really got some great 93 00:05:29,187 --> 00:05:31,137 feedback and, um, it's rewarding. 94 00:05:31,137 --> 00:05:33,117 At least I know I'm, I'm making a difference. 95 00:05:34,017 --> 00:05:35,577 Anja: Yeah, that's, that's amazing. 96 00:05:36,057 --> 00:05:38,847 And I wanted to know, so in your book. 97 00:05:39,642 --> 00:05:44,442 I don't wanna frame this question is, is it more based on like evergreen content? 98 00:05:44,442 --> 00:05:48,162 Like this book is going to last forever because the underlying 99 00:05:48,162 --> 00:05:49,482 principles are the same? 100 00:05:49,782 --> 00:05:54,162 Or are you going into data that's more, you know, time sensitive? 101 00:05:54,162 --> 00:05:57,447 Like for example, where is the, the housing market heading? 102 00:05:59,172 --> 00:06:00,552 Dale: More so like evergreen. 103 00:06:00,552 --> 00:06:03,852 That was kind of the mindset I had, which was like, how do I make sure that this 104 00:06:03,852 --> 00:06:06,642 is relevant in 5, 10, 15, 20 years time? 105 00:06:06,642 --> 00:06:10,962 And it's something that will, I'll look back at and go, yeah, that was good. 106 00:06:10,962 --> 00:06:16,032 And I don't wanna say like prescient because I'm not like, you know, everyone 107 00:06:16,032 --> 00:06:20,742 knows this already in Bitcoin, but I was like, I was ahead of the real 108 00:06:20,742 --> 00:06:22,992 estate investor curve, if you like. 109 00:06:24,012 --> 00:06:25,392 Yeah, I think it's relevant. 110 00:06:26,112 --> 00:06:27,012 Across the board. 111 00:06:27,072 --> 00:06:31,392 That said, I do include a lot of data, um, that is relevant as of today. 112 00:06:31,392 --> 00:06:33,522 But what I'm looking at is also historical data. 113 00:06:33,522 --> 00:06:38,352 So a lot of the graphs and charts that I've got are more so like 114 00:06:38,352 --> 00:06:43,512 over the last 30 years to have a look at kind of what's happened to. 115 00:06:44,187 --> 00:06:49,137 Housing in Australia, not just the medium house price, but in terms of like the, 116 00:06:49,647 --> 00:06:54,087 the ratio between the median wage and the house price, which is kind of just 117 00:06:54,087 --> 00:06:57,567 ballooned and, and, and that's what really fundamentally makes it unaffordable. 118 00:06:57,567 --> 00:07:01,077 If the wages we're keeping up with housing, it'd be, no one would be bitching 119 00:07:01,077 --> 00:07:02,697 and moaning today about affordability. 120 00:07:02,697 --> 00:07:08,307 But the reality is there's like this massive divergence that's happened 121 00:07:08,577 --> 00:07:12,057 over the last sort of 25, 30 years and. 122 00:07:13,752 --> 00:07:15,432 There's a bunch of reasons for that. 123 00:07:15,492 --> 00:07:19,902 Um, and some people tend to go, well, the money's broken. 124 00:07:19,902 --> 00:07:20,652 And I go, well, 125 00:07:21,132 --> 00:07:21,792 yeah, 126 00:07:21,822 --> 00:07:26,647 but also governments policy has created an environment that makes it. 127 00:07:27,837 --> 00:07:31,827 Advantageous to speculate, and that's I think actually the biggest 128 00:07:31,827 --> 00:07:33,477 driver more so than anything else. 129 00:07:33,537 --> 00:07:33,837 Anja: Mm-hmm. 130 00:07:34,527 --> 00:07:36,957 So who do you think needs this book the most? 131 00:07:36,957 --> 00:07:41,547 Is it people who, boomers, who have already a lot of property and might wanna 132 00:07:41,637 --> 00:07:43,737 reallocate some of that into Bitcoin? 133 00:07:43,737 --> 00:07:46,737 Or is it more targeted towards younger demographics who are completely 134 00:07:46,737 --> 00:07:48,417 priced out of the housing market? 135 00:07:48,477 --> 00:07:50,217 Dale: I'd say both in the sense that. 136 00:07:51,117 --> 00:07:53,847 It's for people who think that the, the best way to 137 00:07:53,847 --> 00:07:55,437 accumulate wealth is real estate. 138 00:07:55,497 --> 00:08:01,767 Um, uh, and, and like, and those are the boomers and kind of, it's 139 00:08:01,767 --> 00:08:03,627 worked and I acknowledge that. 140 00:08:03,627 --> 00:08:07,197 But the first thing I say is, if you don't have an open mind, then it's, 141 00:08:07,317 --> 00:08:09,927 everything's a way, I don't wanna say it's a waste of time, but you 142 00:08:09,927 --> 00:08:11,217 might as well just put down the book. 143 00:08:11,727 --> 00:08:13,317 So if you're prepared to like. 144 00:08:13,977 --> 00:08:17,877 Open your mind to a new paradigm, much like people would say, 145 00:08:18,147 --> 00:08:21,232 okay, we're gonna send you some information, and it's across this. 146 00:08:22,107 --> 00:08:24,897 Intangible thing called the internet and someone's like, 147 00:08:25,017 --> 00:08:26,127 oh, I don't believe in this. 148 00:08:26,367 --> 00:08:28,167 Well, then there's no point in having a chat. 149 00:08:28,407 --> 00:08:29,997 Um, it's the same with this. 150 00:08:29,997 --> 00:08:35,217 It's like if you're not open to having your paradigm potentially shifted, 151 00:08:35,757 --> 00:08:38,697 um, then kind of stop reading. 152 00:08:38,727 --> 00:08:41,907 If you're someone who kind of let's that can say, look, I'm going 153 00:08:41,907 --> 00:08:45,147 to suspend whatever beliefs that I've got firmly entrenched today. 154 00:08:46,362 --> 00:08:50,682 Uh, for a period of time for like a short book and it probably takes an 155 00:08:50,682 --> 00:08:51,852 hour and a half to read the book. 156 00:08:52,302 --> 00:08:54,252 And if you're like, at the end of it, think it's rubbish, 157 00:08:54,252 --> 00:08:55,992 that's fine, but at least try. 158 00:08:55,992 --> 00:08:59,322 And so, yeah, it's, it's really for people who are like receptive 159 00:08:59,322 --> 00:09:01,512 to having their mind changed. 160 00:09:01,512 --> 00:09:06,372 And I think of like, I think of people who are doing well in the 161 00:09:06,372 --> 00:09:11,532 financial sort of scheme of things, um, and who've watched Bitcoin. 162 00:09:12,627 --> 00:09:17,727 And what should kind of evolve from a cipher, punk, libertarian movement 163 00:09:17,727 --> 00:09:23,847 to like a, you know, uh, I guess you wanna say like an early adopter, um, 164 00:09:24,927 --> 00:09:29,097 what would it be like a, you can call it like a speculative store value, 165 00:09:29,097 --> 00:09:32,997 and now we've sort of transitioned into like the institutional phase of 166 00:09:32,997 --> 00:09:34,377 adoption, and then it's like, well. 167 00:09:35,892 --> 00:09:39,402 BlackRock and Sovereign Wealth Funds are endorsing it. 168 00:09:39,402 --> 00:09:44,892 And now Vanguard as of like the last few days, um, finally kind 169 00:09:44,892 --> 00:09:46,122 of bending the knee, so to speak. 170 00:09:46,122 --> 00:09:50,052 Then maybe I should look at it and I can just relate to people in 171 00:09:50,052 --> 00:09:54,552 my world who think like that and kind of go, yeah, this is a thing. 172 00:09:55,092 --> 00:09:56,712 Um, and then it's obviously there. 173 00:09:56,712 --> 00:09:59,562 There's also a case for young people who want to buy. 174 00:10:00,147 --> 00:10:02,727 Property and they're kind of going, how do I do this? 175 00:10:03,057 --> 00:10:04,167 It's impossible. 176 00:10:04,347 --> 00:10:07,017 And it's actually like, well, there is a way. 177 00:10:07,377 --> 00:10:13,077 Um, I think it's the only way, uh, unless you're an excellent stock picker, but, 178 00:10:13,317 --> 00:10:17,637 um, you know, you can figure out which AI stock is gonna outperform Bitcoin. 179 00:10:17,637 --> 00:10:22,557 And I'm sure there might be one or two, but, um, Bitcoin is the best 180 00:10:22,557 --> 00:10:27,242 risk adjusted way for you to invest or save, whatever you wanna call it. 181 00:10:28,617 --> 00:10:31,857 I believe that that's the only path because otherwise 182 00:10:32,697 --> 00:10:34,107 it you're gonna be outrun. 183 00:10:34,137 --> 00:10:37,947 And I use examples in the book of people that I know who've been outrun 184 00:10:38,217 --> 00:10:40,167 by the growth and their ability to save. 185 00:10:40,167 --> 00:10:43,617 So it's a long-winded way of saying both categories 186 00:10:43,767 --> 00:10:45,002 Anja: um, yeah. 187 00:10:45,002 --> 00:10:49,952 So I wanted to ask you with Australia, we all know that property is very 188 00:10:49,952 --> 00:10:51,662 much a protected asset class. 189 00:10:51,662 --> 00:10:56,702 Politically speaking, it is in every, uh, administration's interest to protect, 190 00:10:56,882 --> 00:10:58,832 uh, the property, Ponzi, if you will. 191 00:10:59,612 --> 00:11:01,602 Um, so how do you address that in the book? 192 00:11:03,197 --> 00:11:06,557 Dale: Well, I first like outline what are the, I mean, show me the incentives, 193 00:11:06,587 --> 00:11:12,017 uh, show you the outcome and the incentives have been such that it has 194 00:11:12,017 --> 00:11:17,717 been rational for people to have as many investment properties as they can, 195 00:11:17,777 --> 00:11:19,367 provided they can service that debt. 196 00:11:20,327 --> 00:11:26,027 And effectively short the fiat, um, currency, a UD, um, by buying 197 00:11:26,027 --> 00:11:27,317 negatively geared properties. 198 00:11:27,887 --> 00:11:32,747 And so that in itself has created an environment where wealthy people 199 00:11:33,197 --> 00:11:37,007 who just want to pay less tax are competing with first time homeowners. 200 00:11:37,682 --> 00:11:41,012 And obviously wealthy people have deeper pockets and that has just 201 00:11:41,012 --> 00:11:43,082 pushed our prices on top of it. 202 00:11:43,082 --> 00:11:46,952 You have a situation where, uh, and it's, this is quite unique in 203 00:11:46,952 --> 00:11:51,662 Australia, but capital gains is not levied against your primary residence. 204 00:11:52,532 --> 00:11:56,402 And then if you've held it on, like with an investment property, you get a 50% 205 00:11:56,402 --> 00:11:58,352 gain, uh, discount on your capital gain. 206 00:11:58,352 --> 00:12:03,542 So those things combine, I think have the biggest impact overall. 207 00:12:04,022 --> 00:12:04,652 Um. 208 00:12:06,122 --> 00:12:12,212 Yeah, I guess, um, I realized early, I wouldn't say actually I was, maybe I was 209 00:12:12,212 --> 00:12:16,592 a bit later than I'd hoped, but I came into Australia in 2018 and I looked at 210 00:12:16,592 --> 00:12:22,772 the property market, um, and I thought, oh, this, this looks a bit bloated. 211 00:12:22,892 --> 00:12:26,222 Um, and I was living in Adelaide and it was super pedestrian growing. 212 00:12:26,222 --> 00:12:29,702 At like 3% per Anna was like, this doesn't, this is not exciting. 213 00:12:29,702 --> 00:12:30,872 Like, why do people care? 214 00:12:33,092 --> 00:12:37,412 Over the years, I've come to become quite pessimistic about the fact that 215 00:12:37,412 --> 00:12:43,052 there is such thing as a, the possibility of a correction because I mean, uh, I 216 00:12:43,052 --> 00:12:47,192 tend to think that politicians will do what's in their best interest to, uh, 217 00:12:47,822 --> 00:12:52,232 remain in power, and they'll also do what's in their personal best interests. 218 00:12:52,382 --> 00:12:52,952 And so. 219 00:12:53,747 --> 00:12:58,367 Many of them have significant investment portfolios, even if they claim to 220 00:12:58,367 --> 00:13:03,467 be, uh, you know, acting on behalf of the so-called, um, ordinary Aussie 221 00:13:03,467 --> 00:13:08,627 the underdog, even our, um, champagne socialist prime minister, he, um, 222 00:13:08,687 --> 00:13:10,667 he's got quite a nice portfolio. 223 00:13:10,997 --> 00:13:11,987 And so these, um. 224 00:13:12,337 --> 00:13:15,937 Effect these incredibly overpaid bureaucrats who have no real skills 225 00:13:15,937 --> 00:13:19,657 in the, in the real world, um, getting sort of four, 400,000 a 226 00:13:19,657 --> 00:13:23,287 year, they're able to plow a ton of money into investment property. 227 00:13:23,287 --> 00:13:28,237 So it makes sense that they're not gonna do anything to either lose power or 228 00:13:28,387 --> 00:13:29,797 lose the value of their own property. 229 00:13:29,797 --> 00:13:30,187 So. 230 00:13:31,012 --> 00:13:34,462 You know, there's nothing one can do to address that reality. 231 00:13:34,522 --> 00:13:34,942 Unle. 232 00:13:34,972 --> 00:13:40,222 Until such time as that, the population becomes sufficiently 233 00:13:40,222 --> 00:13:42,892 noisy to say Enough is enough. 234 00:13:43,352 --> 00:13:47,252 And we are prepared to like the young people specifically, by the way, 235 00:13:47,612 --> 00:13:49,682 um, as, as a, as a voting block. 236 00:13:49,682 --> 00:13:53,972 As that becomes bigger and bigger, I think there is a prospect of change. 237 00:13:54,002 --> 00:13:58,742 Until such time as Dara say, the boomers die out and their interests are. 238 00:13:59,597 --> 00:14:03,587 Basically, you know, eviscerated because they don't exist anymore and 239 00:14:03,587 --> 00:14:08,627 there's far more young people, um, who today are sort of paying the price. 240 00:14:08,957 --> 00:14:10,517 I don't see this changing. 241 00:14:10,517 --> 00:14:12,827 I think it's a kind of a, it's a demographic thing. 242 00:14:13,277 --> 00:14:16,847 Um, and so what I do try and do is inject a little bit of hope in the book and go. 243 00:14:18,212 --> 00:14:21,902 You might be a bit unhappy about the fact that you can't get into property, but 244 00:14:22,412 --> 00:14:25,802 wait till I tell you about this digital property thing 'cause it's even better. 245 00:14:26,582 --> 00:14:29,882 And so, you know, once you understand like that this is your 246 00:14:29,882 --> 00:14:32,012 generational investment opportunity. 247 00:14:32,192 --> 00:14:36,512 Boomers had low interest rates and they, they, they had a tax 248 00:14:36,512 --> 00:14:40,022 environment that really made it advantageous to speculate on property. 249 00:14:40,757 --> 00:14:46,967 You've got an opportunity to go to get in now, and it feels late, but it's so 250 00:14:46,967 --> 00:14:52,097 early into this asset class that today is a 2 trillion, but there's no reason 251 00:14:52,097 --> 00:14:57,737 why in 20 years, 25, 30 years, this isn't like a a hundred, 150, $200 trillion 252 00:14:57,767 --> 00:15:02,327 asset because of all the quantities that I suppose you and I know very well. 253 00:15:03,767 --> 00:15:06,497 Anja: Yeah, and that's an interesting perspective as well. 254 00:15:06,497 --> 00:15:10,697 Like when thinking about the risk, um, you know, we've seen this slow 255 00:15:10,697 --> 00:15:14,417 creep of like taxation and progressive taxation happen in Australia. 256 00:15:14,417 --> 00:15:18,107 So investing in property today is a lot harder than it was 257 00:15:18,107 --> 00:15:19,997 30 years ago, 60 years ago. 258 00:15:20,357 --> 00:15:23,892 Um, where do you see the property market heading to in the future? 259 00:15:25,427 --> 00:15:29,627 Dale: No one knows for sure, but, um, if I had to guess higher. 260 00:15:29,957 --> 00:15:34,397 Um, and here's, here's some other stuff that, like I talk about often, 261 00:15:34,457 --> 00:15:38,927 um, amongst friends, is that people like to look at aggregate data when 262 00:15:38,927 --> 00:15:43,757 it comes to property, but that doesn't mean anything because every property 263 00:15:43,757 --> 00:15:46,397 is almost like the original NFT. 264 00:15:46,757 --> 00:15:50,177 Like in the sense that there are no two properties on earth 265 00:15:50,177 --> 00:15:51,407 that are exactly the same. 266 00:15:51,677 --> 00:15:54,827 They might be in the, like even if you have an apartment, it's not the same, 267 00:15:55,187 --> 00:15:58,007 it doesn't have the same outlook, it doesn't necessarily have the same design, 268 00:15:58,007 --> 00:15:59,687 interior, whatever the case may be. 269 00:16:00,977 --> 00:16:05,327 There are, so each one is unique in and of, in and of itself. 270 00:16:05,417 --> 00:16:09,977 Um, and then within different re so you have regional dynamics, you have 271 00:16:09,977 --> 00:16:12,852 city dynamics, um, and those been. 272 00:16:13,652 --> 00:16:19,472 Significantly disrupted by things like COVID, um, which 273 00:16:19,472 --> 00:16:21,392 kind of was, was good in a sense. 274 00:16:21,392 --> 00:16:25,832 It was accelerating what should have been happening with more businesses going. 275 00:16:26,567 --> 00:16:30,527 Why do we have to pay such high rent to these landlords when we can 276 00:16:30,527 --> 00:16:34,337 actually just do this all remotely and perhaps get a much smaller office 277 00:16:34,337 --> 00:16:37,127 or satellite offices in the Gold Coast or wherever the case may be. 278 00:16:37,127 --> 00:16:39,377 So, so that was kind of good. 279 00:16:39,377 --> 00:16:42,947 But the, the regional dynamics changed dramatically and places like. 280 00:16:43,652 --> 00:16:46,412 You know, I used to live in Northern Rivers and those places, they went 281 00:16:46,412 --> 00:16:48,692 absolutely mental during COVID. 282 00:16:48,722 --> 00:16:51,062 'cause people were like, well I can actually just, you know, 283 00:16:51,092 --> 00:16:54,332 have my job in Sydney, get paid a fortune, and then come up here. 284 00:16:54,332 --> 00:16:55,082 It's really cheap. 285 00:16:55,532 --> 00:16:55,652 Um. 286 00:16:56,687 --> 00:16:59,747 But the big picture is like, there's so many factors that 287 00:17:00,077 --> 00:17:01,607 go into a property market. 288 00:17:01,607 --> 00:17:07,817 There's no one property market, like I think a place like Melbourne, um, is 289 00:17:07,847 --> 00:17:12,467 what you've seen is property prices go backwards and it's largely because it's a 290 00:17:12,677 --> 00:17:15,437 heavily indebted state, terribly managed. 291 00:17:16,867 --> 00:17:20,137 Crime, um, shitty weather. 292 00:17:20,197 --> 00:17:27,097 I mean, let's be frank, it's awful weather and, um, it's, it's just, it's a, it's not 293 00:17:27,097 --> 00:17:29,167 a very friendly investment environment. 294 00:17:29,167 --> 00:17:33,247 Like, there's lots of stories of guys who've had, you know, their rates 295 00:17:33,247 --> 00:17:37,387 go from like 800 bucks a quarter and this is like commercial rates too. 296 00:17:38,282 --> 00:17:41,072 15,000 and it's like, well, how do I run a business like this? 297 00:17:41,072 --> 00:17:44,492 Like, um, and then they get levied, you know, uh, like, I think there's 298 00:17:44,492 --> 00:17:45,992 like a special COVID levy and stuff. 299 00:17:45,992 --> 00:17:47,402 So, so Melbourne's one thing. 300 00:17:47,402 --> 00:17:51,122 Brisbane, everyone is, the government is spending a fortune on 301 00:17:51,122 --> 00:17:53,132 infrastructure and that's where I am. 302 00:17:53,462 --> 00:18:00,212 And so there are so many jobs and it's all in like infrastructure and property 303 00:18:00,212 --> 00:18:01,742 and it's all around the Olympics. 304 00:18:01,772 --> 00:18:04,112 It's like, you know, whatever it is, three week event. 305 00:18:04,142 --> 00:18:06,557 I mean, honestly, I don't get the excitement, but yeah. 306 00:18:07,277 --> 00:18:11,147 Up until 2032, there's a ton of investment, like billions 307 00:18:11,147 --> 00:18:12,017 and billions of dollars. 308 00:18:12,017 --> 00:18:13,277 So people are coming here. 309 00:18:13,757 --> 00:18:20,597 It's also, I think, a less woke, more kind of live and let live. 310 00:18:20,837 --> 00:18:21,737 It's the closest thing. 311 00:18:22,412 --> 00:18:23,522 To Florida. 312 00:18:23,672 --> 00:18:27,182 We have, let's say, yeah, so I think people have left and they 313 00:18:27,182 --> 00:18:29,612 got, and it's got great weather for like eight months of the year. 314 00:18:29,912 --> 00:18:30,932 So people are coming here. 315 00:18:30,932 --> 00:18:33,152 So Brisbane, I'm bullish on Melbourne. 316 00:18:33,242 --> 00:18:37,172 I'm very bearish on Perth is always cyclical 'cause it's a 317 00:18:37,172 --> 00:18:40,982 regional market that's like very much on the resources cycle. 318 00:18:40,982 --> 00:18:45,482 If the resources cycle is on a downward trajectory, the housing market collapses. 319 00:18:45,962 --> 00:18:46,727 Adelaide is like. 320 00:18:47,672 --> 00:18:50,252 Dead for 20 years and then pumps for five. 321 00:18:50,282 --> 00:18:51,992 And right now it's pumping. 322 00:18:52,112 --> 00:18:52,172 Anja: Yeah, 323 00:18:53,162 --> 00:18:57,542 Dale: it's more expensive than Melbourne, which it makes no sense 324 00:18:57,542 --> 00:18:59,072 'cause there's zero business there. 325 00:18:59,072 --> 00:19:04,292 It's like a government driven economy, like half the buildings in Adelaide, 326 00:19:04,292 --> 00:19:07,112 I worked in commercial property there, or government tenants, so. 327 00:19:08,267 --> 00:19:10,727 So Adelaide, I'm going, yeah, a lot of risk here. 328 00:19:10,937 --> 00:19:11,927 I'm in Brisbane. 329 00:19:12,197 --> 00:19:15,737 I'm a property owner, luckily, and I'm kind of like, I think 330 00:19:15,737 --> 00:19:16,967 this is just gonna keep pumping. 331 00:19:16,967 --> 00:19:18,167 So it depends where you are. 332 00:19:18,407 --> 00:19:22,727 I would be less comfortable about places like, um, you know, nor, uh, 333 00:19:22,727 --> 00:19:27,467 sunshine Coast because I'm not too sure the economy is sufficiently 334 00:19:27,647 --> 00:19:29,072 diversified and developed there, but. 335 00:19:30,077 --> 00:19:32,777 It's hard to say, uh, an but like generally if you had to just 336 00:19:32,777 --> 00:19:35,747 take that aggregate number in Australia, I think just, just up. 337 00:19:36,167 --> 00:19:36,797 Anja: Yeah. 338 00:19:36,797 --> 00:19:40,337 And with Adelaide, I was actually very pleasantly surprised. 339 00:19:40,337 --> 00:19:43,307 It is, it is such a cute little town. 340 00:19:43,397 --> 00:19:46,877 Well, city, I should say city, but it's, it was very pleasantly 341 00:19:46,877 --> 00:19:48,167 surprised when I visited there. 342 00:19:48,527 --> 00:19:50,957 But I know earlier on I mentioned that, um. 343 00:19:51,017 --> 00:19:52,667 It is a protected asset class. 344 00:19:52,667 --> 00:19:57,407 But I did kind of remember as you were speaking, a lot of people are now feeling 345 00:19:57,407 --> 00:20:01,577 like they're being disincentivized to own investment properties 346 00:20:01,577 --> 00:20:03,797 because of the changing regulations. 347 00:20:03,797 --> 00:20:08,897 So we have a housing crisis and it very much, there's laws being 348 00:20:08,897 --> 00:20:11,717 changed that protect their tenant a lot more than the homeowner. 349 00:20:11,717 --> 00:20:14,417 To the point of that, it's very unfavorable for them. 350 00:20:14,867 --> 00:20:16,637 It's just the risk is too high. 351 00:20:16,637 --> 00:20:17,702 Like how did you address that? 352 00:20:18,992 --> 00:20:22,682 Dale: It's, so what I, what I do is kind of just highlight some of the 353 00:20:22,772 --> 00:20:27,902 inherent qualities of property like that you can never mitigate away from, 354 00:20:28,712 --> 00:20:29,312 Anja: can't live in a Bitcoin. 355 00:20:30,182 --> 00:20:32,972 Dale: You can't live in a Bitcoin, but like li like liquid, uh, 356 00:20:33,002 --> 00:20:35,312 like, like Bitcoin's liquid 24 7. 357 00:20:35,312 --> 00:20:36,182 Property's not. 358 00:20:36,182 --> 00:20:40,022 So, you know, you've got these innate qualities of property and. 359 00:20:40,967 --> 00:20:43,847 The tenant is the lifeblood of the asset in the sense that unless you 360 00:20:43,847 --> 00:20:47,807 just wanna buy and like maintain an empty home, um, as an investment, 361 00:20:47,837 --> 00:20:49,277 it's you, you need a tenant. 362 00:20:49,487 --> 00:20:57,917 But tenants are people and, um, and so, um, people, people are uncertain. 363 00:20:58,007 --> 00:21:00,287 You can't, um, can't rely on them for a day. 364 00:21:00,287 --> 00:21:05,747 And yes, you're, you're right, there's so many rules around like tenants having. 365 00:21:06,617 --> 00:21:09,557 So many rights that you as a property owner go like, hold on, 366 00:21:09,557 --> 00:21:10,997 it's not actually your property. 367 00:21:10,997 --> 00:21:18,587 Because in some places you're, you're not allowed to deny a tenant who has a pet. 368 00:21:18,647 --> 00:21:23,477 Now, you know, I love animals actually, but I would, I would want 369 00:21:23,477 --> 00:21:25,787 to defend the right of property owners to go, like, I don't want. 370 00:21:26,252 --> 00:21:27,572 You know, dogs or cats here. 371 00:21:27,572 --> 00:21:28,322 I mean, that's fine. 372 00:21:28,382 --> 00:21:30,632 It doesn't seem like it's a problem, but governments 373 00:21:30,632 --> 00:21:32,042 decide, no, no, that's not fair. 374 00:21:32,042 --> 00:21:33,032 That's not reasonable. 375 00:21:33,332 --> 00:21:37,682 Um, so there's, you know, you just have to acknowledge that these are 376 00:21:37,682 --> 00:21:39,542 the risks when it comes to property. 377 00:21:39,632 --> 00:21:42,422 Um, and I kind of get to this at the end, it's like. 378 00:21:43,082 --> 00:21:45,002 With Bitcoin, it's a set of rules. 379 00:21:45,332 --> 00:21:46,412 You know what the rules are. 380 00:21:46,532 --> 00:21:48,332 The rules are like in stone. 381 00:21:48,362 --> 00:21:51,302 We can bitch and own about core and knots and whatever. 382 00:21:51,512 --> 00:21:54,962 We always finding things to complain about, but no one's gonna suddenly 383 00:21:54,962 --> 00:22:00,122 go, we need more Bitcoin or let's change the, you know, the, the issue 384 00:22:00,122 --> 00:22:02,222 and schedule or whatever stuff. 385 00:22:02,252 --> 00:22:04,442 There's stuff that's like granite that's in stone. 386 00:22:04,442 --> 00:22:06,992 No one's gonna change that, like 21 million and all that kind of stuff. 387 00:22:07,262 --> 00:22:12,272 Property, you've got people and people are a problem because you've got tenants. 388 00:22:12,752 --> 00:22:14,012 They can lose their jobs. 389 00:22:14,012 --> 00:22:16,112 They get divorced, they can wreck things. 390 00:22:16,112 --> 00:22:17,732 They cannot not maintain the property. 391 00:22:17,732 --> 00:22:20,762 They can, you know, create, um, meth labs. 392 00:22:20,762 --> 00:22:24,092 They could just people or people they don't, they can, you know, not pay. 393 00:22:24,092 --> 00:22:27,872 And then you still have a mortgage and then the other people with your 394 00:22:27,872 --> 00:22:31,232 property or the bureaucrats and. 395 00:22:31,952 --> 00:22:35,402 They need to be doing a bunch of social signaling to their 396 00:22:35,612 --> 00:22:37,952 electorate that we care about you. 397 00:22:38,432 --> 00:22:40,382 Um, it's more signaling than anything else. 398 00:22:40,382 --> 00:22:41,642 It's not actually about care. 399 00:22:41,642 --> 00:22:47,222 So they'll go and enact a whole bunch of laws that are, um, ostensibly to address 400 00:22:47,222 --> 00:22:51,002 some grievance, but actually, like, it's just, it's just window dressing. 401 00:22:51,002 --> 00:22:52,487 And so things like, you know. 402 00:22:53,192 --> 00:22:56,702 We don't have enough housing, so we're gonna limit your ability as an owner 403 00:22:56,702 --> 00:23:02,162 to do short term a Airbnbs, um, or, you know, we don't, we have to allow people 404 00:23:02,162 --> 00:23:04,262 with pets or whatever the case may be. 405 00:23:04,262 --> 00:23:06,182 And so it's not your property. 406 00:23:06,212 --> 00:23:08,072 You're at the whim of these people. 407 00:23:08,492 --> 00:23:10,832 And I've experienced that as a property owner. 408 00:23:10,832 --> 00:23:14,372 Like I want to do some things and, you know, my, this 409 00:23:14,372 --> 00:23:15,572 needs to be a surgeon height. 410 00:23:15,572 --> 00:23:21,482 And there's, there's a whole safety compliance, um, uh. 411 00:23:22,277 --> 00:23:22,937 Complex. 412 00:23:22,937 --> 00:23:26,207 Like, you know, that indu the military industrial complex, there's like a safety 413 00:23:26,357 --> 00:23:30,557 industrial complex here in Australia, which is like, I care about safety. 414 00:23:30,797 --> 00:23:37,097 And it's like, we must have the rails 17 centimeters above the ground, not 16, 415 00:23:37,097 --> 00:23:39,497 because then it's, you know, dangerous. 416 00:23:39,617 --> 00:23:42,797 And so like I had these people come around the property, uh, 'cause we 417 00:23:42,797 --> 00:23:45,497 bought a pool and a deck and it was like, no, your handrail's wrong. 418 00:23:45,767 --> 00:23:46,787 So they had to just do all this. 419 00:23:47,392 --> 00:23:49,162 Work, try and fix my handrail. 420 00:23:49,552 --> 00:23:53,032 'cause some random kid could jump in my property and I'm like, dude, 421 00:23:53,032 --> 00:23:54,532 I've got an, I've got a baby. 422 00:23:54,742 --> 00:23:55,042 Okay. 423 00:23:55,042 --> 00:23:56,182 And plus we're Africans. 424 00:23:56,182 --> 00:23:57,982 We take responsibility for our children. 425 00:23:57,982 --> 00:24:00,862 So you know, it's not your property. 426 00:24:00,952 --> 00:24:04,282 Um, and so that's what real estate investors need to know. 427 00:24:04,282 --> 00:24:07,852 It's like, um, you know, you might agree with some of the rules. 428 00:24:09,317 --> 00:24:10,397 Yeah, there's nothing you can do. 429 00:24:10,487 --> 00:24:12,857 Oh, um, I'll give you one more example and I'll shut up. 430 00:24:12,857 --> 00:24:13,757 Basically, yeah. 431 00:24:13,757 --> 00:24:18,827 We bought a granny cher so we could, um, accommodate the in-laws, um, uh, when 432 00:24:18,827 --> 00:24:20,267 they come stay for long periods of time. 433 00:24:21,467 --> 00:24:24,797 Automatically, my rates went up 33%. 434 00:24:25,367 --> 00:24:26,507 So I was like a phone. 435 00:24:26,507 --> 00:24:29,117 I was like, are you guys like for like, are you sure? 436 00:24:29,117 --> 00:24:31,727 You know, like, you know, we're not doing short term letting, he's like, 437 00:24:32,057 --> 00:24:33,917 no, just this is how it is now. 438 00:24:34,007 --> 00:24:35,867 Um, just classify it as this. 439 00:24:35,987 --> 00:24:37,067 So I'm like, okay. 440 00:24:37,067 --> 00:24:40,127 So if I rented out now short term, it's the same. 441 00:24:40,157 --> 00:24:40,397 Yeah. 442 00:24:40,457 --> 00:24:40,727 Okay. 443 00:24:40,727 --> 00:24:41,237 Well now. 444 00:24:42,122 --> 00:24:44,972 You're giving me an incentive to now go and rent it out because 445 00:24:45,512 --> 00:24:46,982 you're charging me now, you know. 446 00:24:47,042 --> 00:24:51,397 Um, 30% more for what would be a vacant granny flat, so, okay. 447 00:24:52,742 --> 00:24:55,712 Anja: There's just way too many examples like that, and this is why 448 00:24:55,712 --> 00:24:59,042 I have a strong bias towards Bitcoin because there's just so little to 449 00:24:59,042 --> 00:25:00,632 think about and to worry about. 450 00:25:00,662 --> 00:25:05,282 I'm the only person that has, I have to worry about exactly like the 451 00:25:05,282 --> 00:25:11,012 responsibility ultimately falls on me, and I don't have to worry about tenants. 452 00:25:11,012 --> 00:25:13,982 I don't have to worry about the government changing regulations 453 00:25:13,982 --> 00:25:15,422 and laws and things like that. 454 00:25:15,422 --> 00:25:19,832 So it's just, it's a very peaceful way to live and volatility. 455 00:25:19,832 --> 00:25:20,162 Yeah. 456 00:25:20,217 --> 00:25:25,767 It's not something that, that actually, um, concerns me so if you had to summarize 457 00:25:25,767 --> 00:25:31,857 the pros and cons of digital gold or Bitcoin versus property, um, let's 458 00:25:31,977 --> 00:25:33,927 maybe just focus on Australia for now. 459 00:25:33,927 --> 00:25:34,677 What might those be? 460 00:25:36,357 --> 00:25:38,547 Dale: Okay, so there's a, there's a lot, but I'm, I'm gonna just 461 00:25:38,547 --> 00:25:40,437 kind of whip through what I think are the most relevant. 462 00:25:40,437 --> 00:25:43,557 So obviously when it comes to Bitcoin, it's more scarce. 463 00:25:43,617 --> 00:25:46,467 Um, it's infinitely divisible relative to property. 464 00:25:46,467 --> 00:25:47,757 You can't divide your property up. 465 00:25:47,817 --> 00:25:49,407 Um, sell like a portion of it. 466 00:25:49,917 --> 00:25:55,737 Um, Bitcoin's liquid 24 7 globally, property's not, um. 467 00:25:56,187 --> 00:25:57,867 You can take your Bitcoin wherever you go. 468 00:25:58,437 --> 00:26:01,137 Um, you take 12 words in your head, whereas, you know, your property is 469 00:26:01,137 --> 00:26:02,787 very much jurisdictionally bound. 470 00:26:03,537 --> 00:26:06,207 There's a ton of transaction costs in property, and people don't 471 00:26:06,207 --> 00:26:08,217 necessarily factor that in when they're doing the investments. 472 00:26:08,217 --> 00:26:09,597 They just talk gross numbers. 473 00:26:09,687 --> 00:26:14,517 Um, and, uh, you know, there's ongoing costs when it comes to 474 00:26:14,547 --> 00:26:17,967 property, you know, whether it's maintenance, whether it's, uh, um, 475 00:26:17,997 --> 00:26:19,947 rates, taxes, all that kind of stuff. 476 00:26:20,562 --> 00:26:24,882 Bitcoin is like, just, you know, you might have some, uh, collaborative custody 477 00:26:24,882 --> 00:26:28,482 costs, like if you are using like a Nunchuck or a Theo or something like that. 478 00:26:28,482 --> 00:26:32,562 But, you know, and fundamentally, like, it doesn't cost you much to actually hold it. 479 00:26:32,622 --> 00:26:35,322 Um, it's much more accessible. 480 00:26:35,322 --> 00:26:39,432 So like you can buy like a, you know, a dollar's worth, uh, if you want Bitcoin, 481 00:26:39,432 --> 00:26:44,022 but property, obviously you need to, you need to have a sizable deposit like. 482 00:26:45,207 --> 00:26:47,157 The government would say five percent's great. 483 00:26:47,457 --> 00:26:51,657 I think that's very stupid, but you'd probably wanna get closer to 20%. 484 00:26:52,317 --> 00:26:56,662 Um, I think that Bitcoin's better is also super transparent, you know, like. 485 00:26:58,062 --> 00:27:00,552 We know what Bitcoin's trading everywhere around the world. 486 00:27:00,552 --> 00:27:02,232 We know what the price is 24 7. 487 00:27:02,232 --> 00:27:03,642 It's like mark to market pricing. 488 00:27:03,642 --> 00:27:08,262 Whereas real estate, part of what makes it like really inefficient is I 489 00:27:08,262 --> 00:27:11,832 can't believe how many different ways you can sell real estate these days. 490 00:27:11,862 --> 00:27:13,782 Um, and you don't need to disclose the price. 491 00:27:13,782 --> 00:27:15,762 And it's like, it's not an open market in that sense. 492 00:27:15,762 --> 00:27:16,842 Like you don't actually. 493 00:27:17,427 --> 00:27:19,257 Know what the value is all the time. 494 00:27:20,307 --> 00:27:23,727 And I think with Bitcoin you really have like true ownership, like a 495 00:27:23,727 --> 00:27:26,397 hundred percent fully self-sovereign. 496 00:27:26,697 --> 00:27:30,507 You might exist within a jurisdiction with laws as to what you can do with it 497 00:27:30,507 --> 00:27:34,527 and whatnot, but fundamentally, no one can confiscate, no one can take it, no 498 00:27:34,527 --> 00:27:36,417 one can tax it without your permission. 499 00:27:36,417 --> 00:27:39,267 Like they need your corporation with real estate. 500 00:27:39,267 --> 00:27:41,307 Like it's just like a fundamentally. 501 00:27:41,472 --> 00:27:42,827 Permissioned asset. 502 00:27:42,827 --> 00:27:45,647 And then from an investment perspective, I think this is huge. 503 00:27:46,397 --> 00:27:49,637 You know, think about the emotional time and energy it goes into 504 00:27:49,637 --> 00:27:51,227 managing an investment property. 505 00:27:51,227 --> 00:27:56,597 Like people refer to their Airbnbs, um, as, as if like that's the asset, 506 00:27:56,747 --> 00:28:00,017 but, and it just, the amount of work, you know, like involved and the, 507 00:28:00,017 --> 00:28:01,487 and the, and the stresses of it. 508 00:28:01,487 --> 00:28:04,007 Whereas like, I don't know how much time you spend on your Bitcoin, but 509 00:28:04,337 --> 00:28:08,417 maybe I do like a key signing ceremony like every six months or 12 months. 510 00:28:09,317 --> 00:28:11,567 And there's no people to deal with. 511 00:28:11,657 --> 00:28:14,417 Um, it doesn't really matter what happens with interest rates. 512 00:28:14,417 --> 00:28:15,527 I don't have neighbors. 513 00:28:15,617 --> 00:28:17,237 It doesn't depreciate. 514 00:28:17,327 --> 00:28:20,297 Um, you know, and as long as I looked after it, like, you know, 515 00:28:20,297 --> 00:28:21,827 it's not gonna get burnt down. 516 00:28:21,947 --> 00:28:26,477 So it's like a real, it's like there's no contest. 517 00:28:26,477 --> 00:28:28,852 It's like w you know, it's w uh, yes. 518 00:28:28,857 --> 00:28:35,207 WWE versus John Jones, heavyweight Champion of the world, uh, UFC. 519 00:28:35,207 --> 00:28:37,487 It's just like if they were in a fight. 520 00:28:38,082 --> 00:28:38,892 There's no com. 521 00:28:38,922 --> 00:28:43,182 It's not even a competition, it's just, but you need to understand Bitcoin. 522 00:28:43,182 --> 00:28:47,562 If you don't understand it, you know you're gonna look at 523 00:28:47,562 --> 00:28:48,502 that and go, yeah, yeah, yeah. 524 00:28:48,502 --> 00:28:49,992 Still internet funny money. 525 00:28:51,852 --> 00:28:52,092 Anja: Yeah. 526 00:28:52,092 --> 00:28:55,842 That, um, UFC reference was completely lost on me, but hopefully the 527 00:28:55,842 --> 00:28:58,242 listener will, will understand. 528 00:28:58,242 --> 00:28:59,172 I, yeah, maybe 529 00:28:59,172 --> 00:28:59,952 Dale: someone will. 530 00:28:59,952 --> 00:29:00,222 Yeah. 531 00:29:02,262 --> 00:29:06,882 Speaker 3: Need a way to sign, verify and secure your Bitcoin Australia's 532 00:29:06,882 --> 00:29:08,472 one-stop shop for Bitcoiners. 533 00:29:08,622 --> 00:29:13,062 Has you covered from signing devices, nodes, and backup solutions? 534 00:29:13,362 --> 00:29:18,387 To bid access day decor and apparel, visit shop bitcoin.com au. 535 00:29:21,942 --> 00:29:25,512 Anja: Um, but I also wanted to talk about your legal background. 536 00:29:25,602 --> 00:29:30,942 Um, and I remember, I wanna say it was earlier this year or last year. 537 00:29:32,262 --> 00:29:37,422 Time has gone by so quickly, but do you remember when there was a court case, 538 00:29:37,422 --> 00:29:41,622 which I think was a criminal court case in Australia, and people were suddenly 539 00:29:41,622 --> 00:29:46,987 thinking that we were going to change the CGT rules on Bitcoin because, um. 540 00:29:47,737 --> 00:29:53,257 There was a case where it was someone was trying to make a, a lawyer was trying 541 00:29:53,257 --> 00:29:57,007 to make a case that Bitcoin is money. 542 00:29:57,067 --> 00:29:57,307 No. 543 00:29:58,057 --> 00:29:58,687 Do you remember? 544 00:29:58,867 --> 00:30:00,397 I'm trying to, like, this is very, 545 00:30:00,457 --> 00:30:01,597 Dale: details are fuzzy. 546 00:30:01,597 --> 00:30:02,622 Hey, and, uh, yeah. 547 00:30:03,217 --> 00:30:03,637 Yeah. 548 00:30:03,637 --> 00:30:06,847 I mean, honestly, especially over the last couple of years, my brain's 549 00:30:06,847 --> 00:30:10,742 a bit fuzzy post child and I, I didn't even give birth, but, um. 550 00:30:11,667 --> 00:30:13,647 But I do know there was some sort of reference. 551 00:30:13,647 --> 00:30:18,927 So, um, yeah, I mean, to me that would be a, that would be an incredible 552 00:30:18,927 --> 00:30:21,852 win, um, as a community if we there we're gonna have to get there. 553 00:30:22,227 --> 00:30:23,067 Could you imagine? 554 00:30:23,097 --> 00:30:28,077 I mean, because then honestly, like if it, if it got the same treatment 555 00:30:28,077 --> 00:30:32,697 as, um, your primary residents, like basically, you know, CGT free. 556 00:30:33,897 --> 00:30:37,107 It would be like, we would attract a ton of people here. 557 00:30:37,227 --> 00:30:41,247 Um, it'll become like this really friendly environment for capital. 558 00:30:41,937 --> 00:30:47,007 But of course, of course that's as long as we've got the current crop in charge. 559 00:30:47,067 --> 00:30:50,187 And, and I don't even see a better alternative frankly, at this point. 560 00:30:50,187 --> 00:30:56,757 But, um, to me that is a pipe dream and, uh, I'm probably, I'd 561 00:30:56,757 --> 00:31:01,047 probably be moving to another jurisdiction that does welcome that. 562 00:31:01,422 --> 00:31:04,392 Far sooner than that will happen, uh, in my life. 563 00:31:04,447 --> 00:31:05,287 I can't see it happening here. 564 00:31:06,057 --> 00:31:10,167 Anja: Yeah, I do remember now what it was, it was a lawyer who's trying to 565 00:31:10,167 --> 00:31:13,227 make a case that Bitcoin is not property. 566 00:31:13,737 --> 00:31:17,397 Um, and therefore it was not stolen, or something along those lines. 567 00:31:17,397 --> 00:31:20,637 And then people were getting excited, oh, is this going to change the, 568 00:31:20,637 --> 00:31:24,867 the, you know, if it's not property, then that means it's CGT exempt. 569 00:31:24,897 --> 00:31:25,677 And it was like, oh, 570 00:31:25,797 --> 00:31:27,927 Dale: yes, I know what you're talking about now. 571 00:31:27,927 --> 00:31:28,017 Yeah. 572 00:31:28,047 --> 00:31:28,527 Okay. 573 00:31:28,587 --> 00:31:29,877 Yes, absolutely. 574 00:31:29,877 --> 00:31:30,717 Yeah, it was a very. 575 00:31:31,307 --> 00:31:36,347 And it was like, it was a magistrate's court judgment. 576 00:31:36,827 --> 00:31:41,567 And it's like, okay, if you understand legal precedent, um, which is like, 577 00:31:42,137 --> 00:31:45,437 and I'm not gonna, you know, say judge it, those, those guys don't matter. 578 00:31:45,437 --> 00:31:49,877 But they, they, what they say is pretty irrelevant in the big picture. 579 00:31:50,537 --> 00:31:52,337 Um, it's like. 580 00:31:53,322 --> 00:31:56,982 I mean South African magistrates versus, um, Aussie ones I'd hope 581 00:31:56,982 --> 00:32:00,012 are a little bit better or, or, or, or probably worse rather. 582 00:32:00,312 --> 00:32:03,612 So I'd imagine the quality's better, but when you go to the lower courts, 583 00:32:03,612 --> 00:32:07,422 like you can have an opinion, but it doesn't really matter. 584 00:32:07,692 --> 00:32:11,892 Um, in the, you know, because you can, you can rule one way. 585 00:32:13,122 --> 00:32:15,282 If the people on the other side have the money and they don't like the 586 00:32:15,282 --> 00:32:18,282 outcome, they'll just appeal and. 587 00:32:18,942 --> 00:32:20,652 I can't see that ever being upheld. 588 00:32:20,652 --> 00:32:26,532 It was just a, a, a, like a single magistrate that I think deviated, of 589 00:32:26,532 --> 00:32:28,302 course, with it didn't make sense to me. 590 00:32:28,302 --> 00:32:32,682 But anyway, look, we can live in hope, eh, we, we certainly can live in hope. 591 00:32:34,092 --> 00:32:34,902 Anja: Yeah, exactly. 592 00:32:35,262 --> 00:32:39,252 But I did actually wanna, uh, that was in the lead up to my next question 593 00:32:39,252 --> 00:32:44,052 is, um, I wanted you to maybe explain to my audience about the difference 594 00:32:44,052 --> 00:32:47,892 between Bitcoin and crypto from a legal perspective, because I thought 595 00:32:47,892 --> 00:32:49,242 that would be an interesting angle. 596 00:32:50,382 --> 00:32:54,597 Dale: So yeah, we're not, when I first got exposed to the space, say 2020. 597 00:32:55,992 --> 00:32:59,802 It was pretty obvious to me there was a significant difference. 598 00:32:59,802 --> 00:33:03,372 And it wasn't because I was, had a unique lens or anything. 599 00:33:03,372 --> 00:33:07,272 It's just like I, I learned from probably the, the best, like the Lynn Dens and 600 00:33:07,272 --> 00:33:09,792 the Parker Lewises and the VJ Boy party. 601 00:33:09,792 --> 00:33:10,572 So that helped. 602 00:33:11,202 --> 00:33:14,937 But then when you spend a bit of time in crypto and I did, um, 603 00:33:15,342 --> 00:33:16,842 it becomes even more obvious. 604 00:33:16,842 --> 00:33:18,942 So I shortly after. 605 00:33:19,632 --> 00:33:21,852 Kind of discovering Bitcoin for the third time. 606 00:33:21,852 --> 00:33:24,582 I was like, I want to try and make this now what I'm doing. 607 00:33:25,182 --> 00:33:29,652 But, you know, um, it's not easy just to go and get a job in Bitcoin. 608 00:33:29,682 --> 00:33:31,092 It's not a lot of opportunities. 609 00:33:31,152 --> 00:33:34,422 Um, you know, and there's no one to, there's no CEO or marketing 610 00:33:34,422 --> 00:33:38,562 team, so I. I was like, okay, how do I work in this space? 611 00:33:38,562 --> 00:33:43,032 And I got a, because I've been, you know, I can write really well. 612 00:33:43,032 --> 00:33:45,702 And I was like, you know what, uh, maybe I can go into media. 613 00:33:45,702 --> 00:33:49,032 So I was in crypto media, I worked for two different publications. 614 00:33:49,032 --> 00:33:51,972 I was like their, um, managing editor. 615 00:33:51,972 --> 00:33:57,912 And you got to see how the, um, crypto sausages made, if you like, 616 00:33:57,942 --> 00:33:59,562 in the sense of just incentives. 617 00:33:59,592 --> 00:33:59,862 Right? 618 00:33:59,862 --> 00:34:03,582 So, um, like just at a high level. 619 00:34:03,647 --> 00:34:07,097 Um, you know, take the morality out of it. 620 00:34:07,097 --> 00:34:10,217 'cause I think crypto is deplorable stuff. 621 00:34:10,217 --> 00:34:16,907 Like, I think it's just, it is this, um, asymmetric one-sided 622 00:34:17,417 --> 00:34:24,797 zero sum, uh, exploitative, um, game that's venture capitalists 623 00:34:24,797 --> 00:34:27,137 play and retails on the other end. 624 00:34:27,797 --> 00:34:29,477 But let's say, I don't have that for you. 625 00:34:29,477 --> 00:34:30,137 Let's just like. 626 00:34:30,552 --> 00:34:33,042 Talk, um, more neutrally. 627 00:34:33,567 --> 00:34:34,017 Tell me more. 628 00:34:34,557 --> 00:34:34,908 You think because 629 00:34:35,697 --> 00:34:38,532 I absolutely, I absolutely hate crypto. 630 00:34:38,952 --> 00:34:43,962 But you know, Bitcoin as sailor would say, is like an asset without an issuer. 631 00:34:43,962 --> 00:34:47,412 There's no central authority that is, um. 632 00:34:47,892 --> 00:34:49,422 Mining Bitcoin. 633 00:34:49,452 --> 00:34:53,772 It's truly decentralized in the sense that you and I can run nodes. 634 00:34:54,312 --> 00:34:57,612 Um, and it is very much a commodity. 635 00:34:57,642 --> 00:35:04,542 Much like no one's got the monopoly on mining gold or timber or copper 636 00:35:04,602 --> 00:35:06,552 or any of these rare earth minerals. 637 00:35:06,552 --> 00:35:09,252 Like, it, it's, it's the same in that sense. 638 00:35:09,252 --> 00:35:10,452 We can mine at home. 639 00:35:10,512 --> 00:35:12,582 I mean, we are not necessarily gonna win. 640 00:35:12,677 --> 00:35:15,012 Uh, uh, probably we are probably not gonna win a block. 641 00:35:15,312 --> 00:35:15,822 Um. 642 00:35:15,897 --> 00:35:19,437 But we could run a minor here at, you know, at home for very little cost. 643 00:35:19,437 --> 00:35:20,797 So you've got. 644 00:35:21,522 --> 00:35:22,392 You've got that. 645 00:35:22,422 --> 00:35:27,702 And then you've got crypto, which is like decentralized in name only in the sense 646 00:35:27,702 --> 00:35:35,412 that, um, you have to, in order for you to run a node, you need to have a very, 647 00:35:35,472 --> 00:35:39,552 um, there needs, there's, there needs to be a very significant text stack. 648 00:35:39,552 --> 00:35:41,022 You need to be quite tech savvy. 649 00:35:41,292 --> 00:35:46,482 And it's very like, um, you could say like data intensive, uh, because 650 00:35:46,482 --> 00:35:48,132 what they're optimizing for is speed. 651 00:35:48,342 --> 00:35:49,542 Um, and. 652 00:35:49,752 --> 00:35:51,402 So they're largely centralized. 653 00:35:51,432 --> 00:35:56,562 They run on Amazon web servers, um, or things like that. 654 00:35:56,682 --> 00:36:03,792 And there's typically like a founder, they actually do have a marketing budget. 655 00:36:03,882 --> 00:36:09,937 They've got a PR team, and, um, the best way to think of 656 00:36:09,937 --> 00:36:11,382 them is actually as companies. 657 00:36:11,562 --> 00:36:13,452 Um, but. 658 00:36:14,052 --> 00:36:19,002 Unlike, um, like, and I use this example all the time, so if you and I wanted to 659 00:36:19,632 --> 00:36:24,942 create a company, um, and then go and raise a bunch of capital on the A SX or, 660 00:36:25,092 --> 00:36:29,382 you know, the, the Aussie Stock Exchange, there's like a million disclosures that 661 00:36:29,382 --> 00:36:32,982 you and I would've to make, we'd have to meet so many different requirements. 662 00:36:33,042 --> 00:36:33,827 Um, just. 663 00:36:34,117 --> 00:36:37,597 For us to be listed because then you've got like a ton of liquidity. 664 00:36:38,167 --> 00:36:41,647 What venture capitalists figured out was like crypto is like a, 665 00:36:41,857 --> 00:36:46,147 a panacea in the sense that you don't have to comply with laws. 666 00:36:46,267 --> 00:36:50,617 You can make up this thing, you can market this thing, you can say it 667 00:36:50,617 --> 00:36:52,777 does X, Y, Z solves this problem. 668 00:36:52,777 --> 00:36:54,187 That problem, um. 669 00:36:55,422 --> 00:37:00,042 And, and what you have is essentially like fast time to liquidity. 670 00:37:00,042 --> 00:37:04,332 Like the hardest thing with a normal company is building up and getting 671 00:37:04,332 --> 00:37:08,112 to a scale where you can sell it off to a private equity company. 672 00:37:08,442 --> 00:37:11,202 Um, or you can list it on a stock exchange, like that's 673 00:37:11,202 --> 00:37:12,732 how you supposed to do it. 674 00:37:12,732 --> 00:37:15,102 That's hard with crypto. 675 00:37:15,717 --> 00:37:17,427 You can circumnavigate all that. 676 00:37:17,427 --> 00:37:19,167 You don't need to worry about disclosures. 677 00:37:19,167 --> 00:37:22,167 You don't have to worry about actually building a product 678 00:37:22,167 --> 00:37:23,397 with a product market fit. 679 00:37:23,427 --> 00:37:28,707 You can just promise stuff and you can literally have instant liquidity on tap. 680 00:37:28,827 --> 00:37:33,207 And so what the incentive is, obviously is for these companies, 681 00:37:33,267 --> 00:37:36,657 which are just unregistered securities from my perspective, which is 682 00:37:36,657 --> 00:37:37,737 another way of saying they just. 683 00:37:38,937 --> 00:37:40,587 Digital penny stocks. 684 00:37:40,827 --> 00:37:47,667 It's like, um, and, and they, they always have a series of promises and use cases, 685 00:37:47,667 --> 00:37:50,517 but there is no product market fit. 686 00:37:51,897 --> 00:37:57,117 And, and so the early investors who essentially printed this money, 687 00:37:57,717 --> 00:38:00,342 like this token out of thin air, um. 688 00:38:01,152 --> 00:38:02,592 Allocates to themselves. 689 00:38:02,592 --> 00:38:06,342 Obviously the, the developers, the early investors, the venture 690 00:38:06,342 --> 00:38:11,382 capitalists who fund the marketing get like it at a dramatic discount. 691 00:38:11,682 --> 00:38:14,922 They then will list it on a shitcoin casino. 692 00:38:15,312 --> 00:38:17,742 The shitcoin casino gets paid a listing fee. 693 00:38:18,072 --> 00:38:18,372 Mm-hmm. 694 00:38:18,642 --> 00:38:21,702 Um, so they're incentivized to lift, lift all the garbage. 695 00:38:21,702 --> 00:38:23,232 Fight coin, Dodge coin. 696 00:38:23,232 --> 00:38:25,722 Well, it doesn't matter, like as long as it's got. 697 00:38:25,937 --> 00:38:26,837 Liquidity. 698 00:38:27,617 --> 00:38:32,627 And so these things trade like yo-yos because there's very thin liquidity. 699 00:38:32,627 --> 00:38:34,337 It's, they're highly concentrated. 700 00:38:34,337 --> 00:38:38,957 So like the Genie coefficient, which is like a measure of, you know, inequality. 701 00:38:38,957 --> 00:38:43,097 Like they, there's a small group that are like, own a very large chunk, 702 00:38:43,667 --> 00:38:46,512 and then if you have the marketing dollars, you can pump that up and down. 703 00:38:47,427 --> 00:38:49,947 And so what these people have done is they've just been able to 704 00:38:49,947 --> 00:38:53,367 enrich themselves at the expense of retail and they, so they, 705 00:38:53,547 --> 00:38:55,677 they, I think it's in bad faith. 706 00:38:55,677 --> 00:38:59,217 I don't think these people are, are just ignorant 'cause 707 00:38:59,277 --> 00:39:00,687 it's too complicated for that. 708 00:39:00,687 --> 00:39:00,837 So. 709 00:39:01,917 --> 00:39:06,687 You know, you don't find Ripple buying XRP or whatever. 710 00:39:06,837 --> 00:39:07,647 They just sell. 711 00:39:07,677 --> 00:39:10,827 And same with E. They don't buy their shares back, like a company 712 00:39:10,827 --> 00:39:14,547 that believes in itself, buys their shares back, but they just sell. 713 00:39:14,967 --> 00:39:19,017 Um, and that tells you everything you need to know and the same, every single one. 714 00:39:19,017 --> 00:39:21,627 And so they're all just utter. 715 00:39:22,212 --> 00:39:22,932 Garbage. 716 00:39:22,932 --> 00:39:24,582 There's no there, there. 717 00:39:25,182 --> 00:39:31,692 Um, and the only thing they can hang their hook on has been, um, that 718 00:39:31,692 --> 00:39:36,012 there are stable coins and that's like actually a use case and starts with it 719 00:39:36,012 --> 00:39:39,372 started with e then it goes to Solana. 720 00:39:39,462 --> 00:39:41,917 'cause Solana's Foster more centralized. 721 00:39:43,047 --> 00:39:47,787 Then it goes to Tron, which is even more centralized, even faster. 722 00:39:47,877 --> 00:39:51,627 And so Bitcoin's trying to do things slowly and make sure things don't break. 723 00:39:51,627 --> 00:39:54,687 And we, they're building like things really responsibly. 724 00:39:54,897 --> 00:39:59,307 Um, and we are building in layers, much like the internet is built in layers. 725 00:39:59,337 --> 00:40:03,087 Um, and so there's only one money, there's only, you know, we don't 726 00:40:03,087 --> 00:40:05,967 need another email protocol. 727 00:40:06,147 --> 00:40:07,557 Um, as an example. 728 00:40:07,677 --> 00:40:08,757 It's already decided. 729 00:40:08,757 --> 00:40:09,747 And it's the same with money. 730 00:40:10,902 --> 00:40:14,442 Just, you know, legally companies versus commodities and 731 00:40:14,442 --> 00:40:16,002 it's like, okay, that's fine. 732 00:40:16,152 --> 00:40:20,652 But um, all you're doing with crypto is speculating and gambling, and 733 00:40:20,652 --> 00:40:21,942 that's fine if you like gambling. 734 00:40:21,942 --> 00:40:23,202 It's like, I don't care. 735 00:40:23,772 --> 00:40:26,532 But it's not an investible asset clause. 736 00:40:26,532 --> 00:40:28,122 It's not, there's nothing there. 737 00:40:28,572 --> 00:40:30,877 It's just anyone can spin up a token. 738 00:40:31,977 --> 00:40:35,127 Um, and you and I could, we could just, you know, call it the Ondale 739 00:40:35,127 --> 00:40:37,317 token and it's not that complicated. 740 00:40:37,317 --> 00:40:38,067 I've looked it up. 741 00:40:38,307 --> 00:40:43,377 Um, it does require like probably a two or $3,000 if you're keen, 742 00:40:45,717 --> 00:40:46,797 Anja: if you're keen to make money. 743 00:40:47,352 --> 00:40:53,142 Um, yeah, it, it's interesting because I notice, like, you know, 744 00:40:53,142 --> 00:40:57,012 when people, my friends and family come to me and ask me about crypto, 745 00:40:57,012 --> 00:40:58,662 I'm like, well, Bitcoin not crypto. 746 00:40:58,662 --> 00:41:03,042 And then I try to kind of steer them in the direction and like, I don't wanna come 747 00:41:03,042 --> 00:41:10,122 across as elitist or like, I'm trying to be a purist, but I really do wanna try 748 00:41:10,122 --> 00:41:15,102 and protect people as much as possible from that predatory marketing because. 749 00:41:15,792 --> 00:41:19,992 It is just that it is predatory marketing, but do you think that like the. 750 00:41:20,517 --> 00:41:23,547 Their tune has changed in the last couple of years. 751 00:41:23,847 --> 00:41:27,237 I remember, well, actually I don't remember, but I wasn't around. 752 00:41:27,327 --> 00:41:30,207 Well, I was around, but I wasn't in the space. 753 00:41:30,237 --> 00:41:34,107 I mean, I was alive, but you know, years ago they were 754 00:41:34,107 --> 00:41:35,817 trying to compete with Bitcoin. 755 00:41:35,817 --> 00:41:38,067 Do you think that has that narrative has changed? 756 00:41:38,067 --> 00:41:39,747 Like they're no longer trying to do that? 757 00:41:39,747 --> 00:41:40,917 Or do you think they still are? 758 00:41:41,037 --> 00:41:44,337 Dale: I think they do what's called like affinity scamming, so they kind of go 759 00:41:44,337 --> 00:41:47,997 like, um, well, you know, Bitcoin's a real thing, but like, so we're similar. 760 00:41:48,262 --> 00:41:51,742 So it's like, you know, so they try to like, it lends some sort of foe 761 00:41:51,742 --> 00:42:00,142 legitimacy to what they're doing, but, um, definitely, definitely, uh, the, the 762 00:42:00,142 --> 00:42:07,222 tuners change in the sense that it's, the narrative has to keep evolving and like, 763 00:42:07,282 --> 00:42:09,742 this is not my, this is not original, but. 764 00:42:11,217 --> 00:42:16,347 Uh, my view is basically that, you know, it starts off with like ETH is the 765 00:42:16,347 --> 00:42:21,747 world computer, then it's powering, um, stable coins, which actually have value. 766 00:42:21,747 --> 00:42:25,767 Like people don't understand that there's something valuable about a digital US 767 00:42:25,767 --> 00:42:28,497 dollar token for people in like Malawi. 768 00:42:28,557 --> 00:42:29,547 Okay, that's helpful. 769 00:42:29,727 --> 00:42:29,787 Um. 770 00:42:31,122 --> 00:42:36,462 Then it goes like, but hold on, we can create art and we can store 771 00:42:36,462 --> 00:42:37,722 pictures and things like that. 772 00:42:37,722 --> 00:42:40,062 And it's like, Hey man, how backward are you? 773 00:42:40,272 --> 00:42:42,462 You still mucking around with physical paintings? 774 00:42:42,702 --> 00:42:46,002 We just create these little monkeys and you know, there's only a hundred 775 00:42:46,002 --> 00:42:49,062 of them and you know, gimme half a million dollars or whatever it is. 776 00:42:49,662 --> 00:42:52,182 And then it's like, ugh, NFTs are not a thing. 777 00:42:52,782 --> 00:42:57,792 And then meme coins come, and then meme coins are like the, I think 778 00:42:57,792 --> 00:42:59,412 it's the final boss of crypto. 779 00:43:00,192 --> 00:43:08,202 Like there is no more runway for crypto because, um, when you have a meme coin, 780 00:43:08,232 --> 00:43:14,622 it's like a almost explicit admission that this is just pure nonsense. 781 00:43:14,622 --> 00:43:17,352 Like there is a hundred percent no. 782 00:43:17,352 --> 00:43:22,242 There, there, there, um, we are not even pretending anymore. 783 00:43:22,272 --> 00:43:27,042 Like, and, and, and I think that's what people have started to see. 784 00:43:27,672 --> 00:43:28,902 I think they realize like. 785 00:43:29,757 --> 00:43:32,487 There was the meme coins, you know, fervor and like, you know, 786 00:43:32,487 --> 00:43:36,597 all the, all the celebrities are incentivized to create their meme coin. 787 00:43:36,597 --> 00:43:40,947 Like that HK tour girl, she did incredibly well, you know, um, her 15 788 00:43:40,947 --> 00:43:44,337 minutes of fame and she created a token and like, you know, it was a bit of an 789 00:43:44,337 --> 00:43:47,997 Emile, didn't know what it was, and was like, some guys came up to him like, 790 00:43:47,997 --> 00:43:49,857 Hey, just build a hock to a token. 791 00:43:49,857 --> 00:43:52,047 And then, you know, obviously rugged because that's the 792 00:43:52,047 --> 00:43:53,847 way you play the game and. 793 00:43:54,912 --> 00:43:55,722 People gonna be pissed. 794 00:43:55,782 --> 00:43:56,922 Um, and rightly so. 795 00:43:56,922 --> 00:43:58,392 But that's it. 796 00:43:58,392 --> 00:44:00,102 And I don't think there's anything left. 797 00:44:00,522 --> 00:44:04,782 If you also just look at the thing as like, there's a couple other metrics. 798 00:44:04,782 --> 00:44:07,122 The one is like Bitcoin's dominance ratio. 799 00:44:07,122 --> 00:44:11,892 So there's like a ratio obviously of Bitcoin relative to the everything else. 800 00:44:12,402 --> 00:44:17,802 And as the number of tokens has grown, I used to say 10,000 and like 801 00:44:17,802 --> 00:44:22,122 then you started building meme coins and then you started doing like. 802 00:44:22,827 --> 00:44:26,397 It's why Safe calls him like the mother eth, the mother 803 00:44:26,397 --> 00:44:28,377 ars asshole of, um, crypto. 804 00:44:28,827 --> 00:44:33,777 Because you can, you don't have to build a whole brand new blockchain. 805 00:44:33,777 --> 00:44:36,387 You can build a token on top of eth. 806 00:44:36,417 --> 00:44:39,567 And so it just spits out all this utter horse shit. 807 00:44:40,527 --> 00:44:43,377 And so we have like literally millions of tokens. 808 00:44:43,377 --> 00:44:45,477 So as the number of tokens grows. 809 00:44:46,047 --> 00:44:49,167 Bitcoin's dominance ratio has continued to climb, and so it's like 810 00:44:49,167 --> 00:44:54,567 in numbers, it's just like gone from 10,000 to maybe a, oh, I can look 811 00:44:54,567 --> 00:44:55,917 up in real time what it is today. 812 00:44:55,917 --> 00:44:59,697 I mean, honestly, I think it was like 10 or 20 million tokens in existence. 813 00:45:00,207 --> 00:45:02,637 So what we see is the market's telling. 814 00:45:02,637 --> 00:45:04,377 It's like, okay, this is not real. 815 00:45:04,707 --> 00:45:06,507 Then you start thinking about like. 816 00:45:06,912 --> 00:45:12,972 How many of them have hit like all time highs since the retail speculative 817 00:45:12,972 --> 00:45:17,622 fervor of 20, 20, 21, let's say None. 818 00:45:18,792 --> 00:45:21,012 Um, I don't follow crypto that closely, but. 819 00:45:21,552 --> 00:45:24,132 I believe they haven't, like this is what I've actually read. 820 00:45:24,132 --> 00:45:30,912 If you look at a chart of these tokens measured in Bitcoin, which is 821 00:45:30,912 --> 00:45:35,202 how they used to be, um, purchased, like you needed to buy Bitcoin, 822 00:45:35,202 --> 00:45:37,182 it'll buy these crypto tokens. 823 00:45:37,962 --> 00:45:42,612 You also see the price goes sort of from the top left to the bottom right, because 824 00:45:43,512 --> 00:45:45,972 everything loses value in Bitcoin terms. 825 00:45:46,122 --> 00:45:47,532 Um, so. 826 00:45:48,957 --> 00:45:53,607 When you think about, and then you layer on top the fact that there are 827 00:45:53,607 --> 00:45:59,487 no sovereign wealth funds that are going to be like, should we invest 828 00:45:59,547 --> 00:46:05,757 in this programmatically scarce unseasonable neutral reserve asset? 829 00:46:05,967 --> 00:46:14,397 Or should we invest in, um, vitalic but's Ethereum computer, um, experiment called 830 00:46:14,457 --> 00:46:17,422 e, um, which is effectively a company. 831 00:46:18,927 --> 00:46:22,827 Without revenue, you know, like it's not even a choice. 832 00:46:22,827 --> 00:46:26,397 So there are no serious investors in crypto. 833 00:46:26,667 --> 00:46:29,907 So for all those reasons, like I think crypto will die. 834 00:46:29,907 --> 00:46:34,857 Like I think, you know, crypto in a decade will be like, oh, do you remember that? 835 00:46:34,887 --> 00:46:36,927 That was just absolutely stupid. 836 00:46:36,927 --> 00:46:38,157 Like what were people thinking? 837 00:46:38,162 --> 00:46:38,282 But. 838 00:46:39,567 --> 00:46:42,717 This is just part of the evolution of a new space. 839 00:46:42,717 --> 00:46:47,007 You're gonna have an innovation pop up, a whole bunch of copycats. 840 00:46:47,007 --> 00:46:51,177 Grifters want to come in and they'll go, we've got a different Bitcoin. 841 00:46:51,177 --> 00:46:52,857 This is Bitcoin Satoshi Vision. 842 00:46:52,857 --> 00:46:54,297 This is Bitcoin cash. 843 00:46:54,627 --> 00:46:55,947 We've got other tokens. 844 00:46:55,947 --> 00:46:56,967 Bitcoin's slow. 845 00:46:56,997 --> 00:46:58,887 And it's like, come on man. 846 00:46:58,887 --> 00:46:59,907 Have you heard about lightning? 847 00:47:00,117 --> 00:47:01,317 So, you know. 848 00:47:02,007 --> 00:47:03,627 These are not serious people, Anya. 849 00:47:03,777 --> 00:47:10,917 Um, they're grifters and they also be dismissed, um, instantly because, um, 850 00:47:11,037 --> 00:47:15,777 I've seen, yeah, I've seen it firsthand how it works at a crypto publication 851 00:47:15,777 --> 00:47:18,537 and yeah, it's, it's pretty appalling. 852 00:47:18,537 --> 00:47:22,857 So people need to try, um, they're gonna speculate, that's fine. 853 00:47:22,917 --> 00:47:26,157 But, um, this is a game for venture capitalists. 854 00:47:26,157 --> 00:47:27,567 This is not a game for retail. 855 00:47:27,597 --> 00:47:29,937 So buyer beware. 856 00:47:30,837 --> 00:47:31,377 Anja: Yeah. 857 00:47:31,552 --> 00:47:34,137 I, I love, that was a really, really good summary. 858 00:47:34,137 --> 00:47:37,287 And yeah, the BSV crowd is something else. 859 00:47:37,317 --> 00:47:43,287 I keep getting comments from them on my Twitter and it's, 860 00:47:43,317 --> 00:47:45,477 yeah, it's just very interesting. 861 00:47:46,557 --> 00:47:50,457 But yeah, I, I definitely think of like, it's, I think the crypto industry 862 00:47:50,457 --> 00:47:54,957 is so sinister that if I had a choice between working in central banking or in 863 00:47:54,957 --> 00:47:56,937 crypto, I would choose central banking. 864 00:47:57,057 --> 00:47:57,507 I think that. 865 00:47:58,682 --> 00:48:00,452 Dale: What does that say exactly? 866 00:48:01,802 --> 00:48:03,632 No, it's unconscionable. 867 00:48:03,992 --> 00:48:09,927 Um, and it's, it, you know, it's, it's so funny 'cause I used to work at a crypto. 868 00:48:11,247 --> 00:48:15,747 Magazine, as I said, and these companies would reach out, um, NFT 869 00:48:15,747 --> 00:48:20,187 creators, you know, um, and they'd be like, oh, look at what we're doing. 870 00:48:20,187 --> 00:48:23,817 It's like, you know, a piece of toast, um, with some tomato sauce spaces. 871 00:48:23,817 --> 00:48:25,467 And like, you know, these are some local Aussies. 872 00:48:26,097 --> 00:48:30,672 And so the owner of the publication who subsequently sold it to a 873 00:48:30,672 --> 00:48:35,097 Shitcoin casino, surprise, he went and bought those pieces of toast. 874 00:48:35,432 --> 00:48:38,402 And then insisted that I run a toast story. 875 00:48:38,672 --> 00:48:44,102 So I couldn't help but be sarcastic about how the hell are people buying pieces 876 00:48:44,102 --> 00:48:49,682 of digital toast and then had to have it like removed and then like apology. 877 00:48:49,682 --> 00:48:53,072 I mean, it's just, this is the kind of stuff that goes into it, you 878 00:48:53,072 --> 00:48:57,392 know, the incentives if, if you know that you can almost front run, like 879 00:48:57,392 --> 00:48:59,312 I can literally just see a bump up. 880 00:48:59,312 --> 00:48:59,882 I mean, they. 881 00:49:01,617 --> 00:49:06,687 The owner used to have a NFT, uh, it an open sea, like his 882 00:49:06,687 --> 00:49:08,937 username was noob crusher. 883 00:49:09,807 --> 00:49:12,957 So in other words, I'm actually being really open about the 884 00:49:12,957 --> 00:49:16,137 fact that I, I'm exploiting you. 885 00:49:16,377 --> 00:49:18,537 I use my own publication. 886 00:49:19,422 --> 00:49:24,327 I, I promote all these worthless, um, NFTs, and then you go, you buy 887 00:49:24,327 --> 00:49:27,567 them on the back of that 'cause he had great traffic and good SEO. 888 00:49:29,367 --> 00:49:30,867 So I was like, no, I can't do this. 889 00:49:31,527 --> 00:49:31,857 If 890 00:49:31,857 --> 00:49:34,557 Anja: people tell you who they are, you should believe them. 891 00:49:36,057 --> 00:49:36,957 Dale: Exactly. 892 00:49:36,957 --> 00:49:38,457 Totally unethical that dude. 893 00:49:38,907 --> 00:49:39,207 Anja: Yeah. 894 00:49:39,867 --> 00:49:45,717 Um, but before we wrap up, I have heard in the grapevine that, um, you have a 895 00:49:45,987 --> 00:49:48,507 Bitcoin will start a kit coming out. 896 00:49:48,507 --> 00:49:49,677 Do you wanna tell us about that? 897 00:49:50,547 --> 00:49:51,357 Dale: Yeah, absolutely. 898 00:49:51,357 --> 00:49:56,967 So, um, you know, being a bitcoin, aspiring Bitcoin entrepreneur doing 899 00:49:57,207 --> 00:50:01,587 different things, trying to, to see, um, how it can make a, a lasting impact. 900 00:50:02,097 --> 00:50:06,687 One of the things I've noticed is that nobody talks about like actually 901 00:50:06,687 --> 00:50:11,427 having a will and feeling really confident in a wall and like, um. 902 00:50:12,762 --> 00:50:16,182 Being a lawyer, I tend to make things sound simpler than like they are. 903 00:50:16,182 --> 00:50:19,302 I kind of imagine that people can go, yeah, it's so simple, 904 00:50:19,302 --> 00:50:20,502 man, why don't you just do it? 905 00:50:20,562 --> 00:50:22,632 And then I'm like, actually, you know what? 906 00:50:22,632 --> 00:50:26,352 I studied that for a long time and you know, I've been trained 907 00:50:26,832 --> 00:50:28,482 and I know how to read contracts. 908 00:50:28,482 --> 00:50:29,202 I know how to think. 909 00:50:29,202 --> 00:50:32,982 So in that regard, I go, okay, maybe there is an opportunity to 910 00:50:32,982 --> 00:50:36,492 create like a Bitcoin focus will. 911 00:50:37,152 --> 00:50:40,782 Like a starter kit that is low cost that you don't have to talk 912 00:50:40,782 --> 00:50:45,552 to like a lawyer, um, that you can essentially complete on your own. 913 00:50:45,612 --> 00:50:50,442 It'll have all the fields available for you, and then it will, but it's Bitcoin 914 00:50:50,532 --> 00:50:54,582 ready in the sense that you wanna make sure that your Bitcoin gets transferred. 915 00:50:54,582 --> 00:50:57,642 And so I'm putting together like a, a Bitcoin. 916 00:50:59,967 --> 00:51:05,337 We'll start a pack and I'd love to get some sort of folks who just want 917 00:51:05,337 --> 00:51:06,627 to come and test it out with me. 918 00:51:06,627 --> 00:51:08,277 See, see how it lands. 919 00:51:08,787 --> 00:51:12,537 Um, it's really early days, but, um, pretty excited about it. 920 00:51:12,597 --> 00:51:16,947 And yeah, I'm hopeful that it can be a, uh, like long term, 921 00:51:16,947 --> 00:51:18,447 it could be like a low cost. 922 00:51:19,497 --> 00:51:22,347 Let's say get off zero in terms of your world. 923 00:51:22,347 --> 00:51:26,247 Get something in place because there's two things you wanna avoid, one. 924 00:51:26,862 --> 00:51:30,312 The state's getting involved in your affairs once you're 925 00:51:30,312 --> 00:51:32,442 dead, like you don't want that. 926 00:51:32,862 --> 00:51:35,892 And two, you wanna make sure your Bitcoin is safely transferred. 927 00:51:35,892 --> 00:51:39,792 So if you self custody, it's only as good as your, as your wool. 928 00:51:39,882 --> 00:51:45,762 And if you don't have a good enough wool and kind of the digital breadcrumbs, you 929 00:51:45,762 --> 00:51:46,872 know, you're donating to the network. 930 00:51:46,872 --> 00:51:50,772 So I think those are the two core problems that I think this might solve. 931 00:51:50,832 --> 00:51:51,012 And. 932 00:51:51,942 --> 00:51:54,702 No, I'd love to just get some feedback from people in real life. 933 00:51:54,702 --> 00:51:58,842 So if anyone's listening and wants, uh, a bit of assistance in that 934 00:51:58,842 --> 00:52:01,302 regard, you may get in touch with me. 935 00:52:02,322 --> 00:52:03,222 Anja: Yeah, no worries. 936 00:52:03,222 --> 00:52:06,222 I will put all your contact details in the show notes. 937 00:52:06,522 --> 00:52:08,592 Um, do you have any final words for the audience? 938 00:52:08,832 --> 00:52:10,837 Dale: Um, what I would say is that I think. 939 00:52:11,727 --> 00:52:16,257 I think much like most people this year has been somewhat, um, 940 00:52:16,287 --> 00:52:22,827 underwhelming in many respects, lackluster, and it's very easy to get 941 00:52:22,827 --> 00:52:25,617 complacent and feel somewhat cheated. 942 00:52:25,617 --> 00:52:29,637 But there's a couple things I've been thinking about and 943 00:52:29,997 --> 00:52:31,047 you know, the one is, um. 944 00:52:33,027 --> 00:52:36,207 Obviously we need to have a long-term time horizon with this particular 945 00:52:36,207 --> 00:52:39,507 asset, and no one said it was gonna be up and to the right and easy. 946 00:52:39,597 --> 00:52:46,017 Um, and the less expectations you have, the happier you will be. 947 00:52:46,437 --> 00:52:48,987 Um, and also just remember that all of. 948 00:52:49,537 --> 00:52:51,842 Bitcoin's trading days are like compressed. 949 00:52:51,842 --> 00:52:54,212 The positive trading days are compressed in like 10 days. 950 00:52:54,722 --> 00:52:58,382 So for the other sort of 355 days, it's just boring as hell. 951 00:52:58,772 --> 00:53:03,392 And so do your best to kind of just get yourself psychologically ready 952 00:53:03,392 --> 00:53:08,132 for potentially what could be another boring year, two years, three years. 953 00:53:08,132 --> 00:53:12,512 We know where this is going, but I've personally found it a little bit 954 00:53:12,512 --> 00:53:15,302 challenging 'cause my expectations didn't align with reality and 955 00:53:15,332 --> 00:53:16,952 I've had to kind of reset and go. 956 00:53:17,547 --> 00:53:22,077 Alright, we still got the fastest horse in the race, the use case and the um, 957 00:53:22,107 --> 00:53:23,937 value proposition as good as ever. 958 00:53:24,357 --> 00:53:25,437 And I couldn't be more bullish. 959 00:53:25,437 --> 00:53:26,997 It's just green lights everywhere I look. 960 00:53:27,657 --> 00:53:30,897 And maybe that's not reflected in the value today, like in the 961 00:53:30,897 --> 00:53:34,647 price, but um, you're not too late. 962 00:53:34,677 --> 00:53:36,987 And, uh, yeah, that's all I would say. 963 00:53:36,987 --> 00:53:39,327 I think I want to finish on that kind of optimistic note. 964 00:53:40,437 --> 00:53:41,697 Anja: That's a great way to end. 965 00:53:41,697 --> 00:53:42,927 Thanks for your time, Dale. 966 00:53:43,377 --> 00:53:43,827 Dale: Awesome. 967 00:53:43,827 --> 00:53:44,667 Thank you Anya. 968 00:53:44,787 --> 00:53:45,537 Great chatting to you. 969 00:53:46,287 --> 00:53:46,857 Anja: Likewise.