Anja: I am very pleased to say that joining me today is a local
Bitcoin Dale Warburton Dale has a podcast called Why Bitcoin Show.
And if you go to his website, why bitcoin show.com, you'll find a
great range of calculators that I keep, uh, referring people to.
Welcome to Honest Money Dale.
Dale: Thanks Anya.
Real, real pleasure to be here.
Anja: I love that you came prepared with a microphone.
Dale: I'd have to be here as a podcaster.
I'd be pretty amateur at this.
Anja: Yeah.
So you've recently released a book called No Tenants No Troubles.
Um, it is making a case for why Bitcoin instead of real estate.
So that's what I wanted to talk to you about today.
Um, tell us about the book.
Dale: Brilliant.
Well, I think the, the origin of it was I thought to myself I wanted to make
a, um, some sort of lasting impact.
And so much of what we do in the podcast world is, I think, quite ephemeral
in the sense that no one's gonna be listening to what I have to say,
maybe six months out, 12 months out.
It's not.
In the cosmos of time, it's kind of irrelevant.
Whereas with a book, hopefully if you've done your job, it'll
stand the test of time and it can actually age quite well and.
Being a, uh, kind of, I've worked in real estate, uh, in one capacity
or another for more than a decade.
I know the asset class really well.
The only thing I never did was kind of property development, but
everything else I did, I also got a master's degree in real estate.
So I get real estate.
I get why people have invested it and why people love it so much.
Particularly here in Australia.
And so wanting to make some sort of lasting impact in the space, I thought,
well, why not just write a book?
Well, I got nudge to do it as as always, and.
Essentially the book is a high level overview of saying, look, this is
what is happening in Australia.
This is why real estate is really expensive and in many parts of the
world, this is, these are the kind of, uh, main drawbacks of real estate.
Um, when it comes to, um, investing in them.
Not just owning them to live in, because that's a very different thing.
That's like a lifestyle asset.
I'm talking about real estate as an investment and then, um,
comparing that to Bitcoin and just.
Having a look at all the different qualities that Bitcoin has
relative to real estate and.
If I'm honest, there's no comparison.
It's the easiest decision in the world.
However, you know, for a lot of people, um, that's not that obvious.
So my goal wasn't to talk to Bitcoiners, so, uh, it was more to try
and talk to investors in real estate because I think we need to try and.
Break the Fiat Matrix real estate mind of these people and just kind of go, Hey,
once you see this, you can't unsee it.
And so my book, no Tenants, no Troubles, the Case for Digital Gold of a Real
Estate deliberately left the word Bitcoin out to not scare away these.
Property Maxes, um, is an attempt to try and bridge that gap.
Anja: Yeah, I love it.
And like I have heard from so many people, obviously in the Bitcoin
space or just new to it, that they are slowly moving out of property.
And into Bitcoin.
Um, there is, there's a boomer in in Queensland that I quite referred to a
lot on, on this podcast, but he's such a good case study and you know, he's
someone who's invested, um, into real estate his whole life and has only come
across Bitcoin, I think since 2017.
And yeah, he's definitely kind of seeing the long-term values.
He's got like 10 grandkids, so he's like, bitcoin's the way to go.
Have you had any early feedback from, from the readers of your book?
Dale: Yes, and surprisingly like, um, from places I wouldn't expect.
So like, um, I've heard readers reach out, you know, from Canada and the uk, um,
uh, in particular, which is interesting.
And just to say like, oh yeah, it is very well written and like.
A cogent concise case.
It's like I wanted to make it accessible.
There's, you know, I love Ole and she's my number one person, but that
broken money is a monster and you just can't give people broken money, even
if it's written like incredibly well.
Um, it's too much work.
People need stuff that's easy, digestible, so.
That's been the main feedback, said like, look, you've laid it out really well.
Um, I think you make a good case for it.
And what I ask people to do is to also just share the book
then with family or friends.
Um, if it's obviously a physical copy, it's a lot easier.
So yeah, it's been, it's been quite rewarding thus far.
Um, I must confess, I am one of the worst promoters on earth.
I don't know if Australia has, um.
Infected me with tall poppy syndrome, but I, I haven't been sort of screaming
from the hilltops and, um, I think, yeah, I've been criticized by some people.
I love for not actually doing enough in terms of getting it out there
because, uh, you can't just stick a book out there and go, Hey, so, um, but.
Of, of all the sales I've done so far, I've really got some great
feedback and, um, it's rewarding.
At least I know I'm, I'm making a difference.
Anja: Yeah, that's, that's amazing.
And I wanted to know, so in your book.
I don't wanna frame this question is, is it more based on like evergreen content?
Like this book is going to last forever because the underlying
principles are the same?
Or are you going into data that's more, you know, time sensitive?
Like for example, where is the, the housing market heading?
Dale: More so like evergreen.
That was kind of the mindset I had, which was like, how do I make sure that this
is relevant in 5, 10, 15, 20 years time?
And it's something that will, I'll look back at and go, yeah, that was good.
And I don't wanna say like prescient because I'm not like, you know, everyone
knows this already in Bitcoin, but I was like, I was ahead of the real
estate investor curve, if you like.
Yeah, I think it's relevant.
Across the board.
That said, I do include a lot of data, um, that is relevant as of today.
But what I'm looking at is also historical data.
So a lot of the graphs and charts that I've got are more so like
over the last 30 years to have a look at kind of what's happened to.
Housing in Australia, not just the medium house price, but in terms of like the,
the ratio between the median wage and the house price, which is kind of just
ballooned and, and, and that's what really fundamentally makes it unaffordable.
If the wages we're keeping up with housing, it'd be, no one would be bitching
and moaning today about affordability.
But the reality is there's like this massive divergence that's happened
over the last sort of 25, 30 years and.
There's a bunch of reasons for that.
Um, and some people tend to go, well, the money's broken.
And I go, well,
yeah,
but also governments policy has created an environment that makes it.
Advantageous to speculate, and that's I think actually the biggest
driver more so than anything else.
Anja: Mm-hmm.
So who do you think needs this book the most?
Is it people who, boomers, who have already a lot of property and might wanna
reallocate some of that into Bitcoin?
Or is it more targeted towards younger demographics who are completely
priced out of the housing market?
Dale: I'd say both in the sense that.
It's for people who think that the, the best way to
accumulate wealth is real estate.
Um, uh, and, and like, and those are the boomers and kind of, it's
worked and I acknowledge that.
But the first thing I say is, if you don't have an open mind, then it's,
everything's a way, I don't wanna say it's a waste of time, but you
might as well just put down the book.
So if you're prepared to like.
Open your mind to a new paradigm, much like people would say,
okay, we're gonna send you some information, and it's across this.
Intangible thing called the internet and someone's like,
oh, I don't believe in this.
Well, then there's no point in having a chat.
Um, it's the same with this.
It's like if you're not open to having your paradigm potentially shifted,
um, then kind of stop reading.
If you're someone who kind of let's that can say, look, I'm going
to suspend whatever beliefs that I've got firmly entrenched today.
Uh, for a period of time for like a short book and it probably takes an
hour and a half to read the book.
And if you're like, at the end of it, think it's rubbish,
that's fine, but at least try.
And so, yeah, it's, it's really for people who are like receptive
to having their mind changed.
And I think of like, I think of people who are doing well in the
financial sort of scheme of things, um, and who've watched Bitcoin.
And what should kind of evolve from a cipher, punk, libertarian movement
to like a, you know, uh, I guess you wanna say like an early adopter, um,
what would it be like a, you can call it like a speculative store value,
and now we've sort of transitioned into like the institutional phase of
adoption, and then it's like, well.
BlackRock and Sovereign Wealth Funds are endorsing it.
And now Vanguard as of like the last few days, um, finally kind
of bending the knee, so to speak.
Then maybe I should look at it and I can just relate to people in
my world who think like that and kind of go, yeah, this is a thing.
Um, and then it's obviously there.
There's also a case for young people who want to buy.
Property and they're kind of going, how do I do this?
It's impossible.
And it's actually like, well, there is a way.
Um, I think it's the only way, uh, unless you're an excellent stock picker, but,
um, you know, you can figure out which AI stock is gonna outperform Bitcoin.
And I'm sure there might be one or two, but, um, Bitcoin is the best
risk adjusted way for you to invest or save, whatever you wanna call it.
I believe that that's the only path because otherwise
it you're gonna be outrun.
And I use examples in the book of people that I know who've been outrun
by the growth and their ability to save.
So it's a long-winded way of saying both categories
Anja: um, yeah.
So I wanted to ask you with Australia, we all know that property is very
much a protected asset class.
Politically speaking, it is in every, uh, administration's interest to protect,
uh, the property, Ponzi, if you will.
Um, so how do you address that in the book?
Dale: Well, I first like outline what are the, I mean, show me the incentives,
uh, show you the outcome and the incentives have been such that it has
been rational for people to have as many investment properties as they can,
provided they can service that debt.
And effectively short the fiat, um, currency, a UD, um, by buying
negatively geared properties.
And so that in itself has created an environment where wealthy people
who just want to pay less tax are competing with first time homeowners.
And obviously wealthy people have deeper pockets and that has just
pushed our prices on top of it.
You have a situation where, uh, and it's, this is quite unique in
Australia, but capital gains is not levied against your primary residence.
And then if you've held it on, like with an investment property, you get a 50%
gain, uh, discount on your capital gain.
So those things combine, I think have the biggest impact overall.
Um.
Yeah, I guess, um, I realized early, I wouldn't say actually I was, maybe I was
a bit later than I'd hoped, but I came into Australia in 2018 and I looked at
the property market, um, and I thought, oh, this, this looks a bit bloated.
Um, and I was living in Adelaide and it was super pedestrian growing.
At like 3% per Anna was like, this doesn't, this is not exciting.
Like, why do people care?
Over the years, I've come to become quite pessimistic about the fact that
there is such thing as a, the possibility of a correction because I mean, uh, I
tend to think that politicians will do what's in their best interest to, uh,
remain in power, and they'll also do what's in their personal best interests.
And so.
Many of them have significant investment portfolios, even if they claim to
be, uh, you know, acting on behalf of the so-called, um, ordinary Aussie
the underdog, even our, um, champagne socialist prime minister, he, um,
he's got quite a nice portfolio.
And so these, um.
Effect these incredibly overpaid bureaucrats who have no real skills
in the, in the real world, um, getting sort of four, 400,000 a
year, they're able to plow a ton of money into investment property.
So it makes sense that they're not gonna do anything to either lose power or
lose the value of their own property.
So.
You know, there's nothing one can do to address that reality.
Unle.
Until such time as that, the population becomes sufficiently
noisy to say Enough is enough.
And we are prepared to like the young people specifically, by the way,
um, as, as a, as a voting block.
As that becomes bigger and bigger, I think there is a prospect of change.
Until such time as Dara say, the boomers die out and their interests are.
Basically, you know, eviscerated because they don't exist anymore and
there's far more young people, um, who today are sort of paying the price.
I don't see this changing.
I think it's a kind of a, it's a demographic thing.
Um, and so what I do try and do is inject a little bit of hope in the book and go.
You might be a bit unhappy about the fact that you can't get into property, but
wait till I tell you about this digital property thing 'cause it's even better.
And so, you know, once you understand like that this is your
generational investment opportunity.
Boomers had low interest rates and they, they, they had a tax
environment that really made it advantageous to speculate on property.
You've got an opportunity to go to get in now, and it feels late, but it's so
early into this asset class that today is a 2 trillion, but there's no reason
why in 20 years, 25, 30 years, this isn't like a a hundred, 150, $200 trillion
asset because of all the quantities that I suppose you and I know very well.
Anja: Yeah, and that's an interesting perspective as well.
Like when thinking about the risk, um, you know, we've seen this slow
creep of like taxation and progressive taxation happen in Australia.
So investing in property today is a lot harder than it was
30 years ago, 60 years ago.
Um, where do you see the property market heading to in the future?
Dale: No one knows for sure, but, um, if I had to guess higher.
Um, and here's, here's some other stuff that, like I talk about often,
um, amongst friends, is that people like to look at aggregate data when
it comes to property, but that doesn't mean anything because every property
is almost like the original NFT.
Like in the sense that there are no two properties on earth
that are exactly the same.
They might be in the, like even if you have an apartment, it's not the same,
it doesn't have the same outlook, it doesn't necessarily have the same design,
interior, whatever the case may be.
There are, so each one is unique in and of, in and of itself.
Um, and then within different re so you have regional dynamics, you have
city dynamics, um, and those been.
Significantly disrupted by things like COVID, um, which
kind of was, was good in a sense.
It was accelerating what should have been happening with more businesses going.
Why do we have to pay such high rent to these landlords when we can
actually just do this all remotely and perhaps get a much smaller office
or satellite offices in the Gold Coast or wherever the case may be.
So, so that was kind of good.
But the, the regional dynamics changed dramatically and places like.
You know, I used to live in Northern Rivers and those places, they went
absolutely mental during COVID.
'cause people were like, well I can actually just, you know,
have my job in Sydney, get paid a fortune, and then come up here.
It's really cheap.
Um.
But the big picture is like, there's so many factors that
go into a property market.
There's no one property market, like I think a place like Melbourne, um, is
what you've seen is property prices go backwards and it's largely because it's a
heavily indebted state, terribly managed.
Crime, um, shitty weather.
I mean, let's be frank, it's awful weather and, um, it's, it's just, it's a, it's not
a very friendly investment environment.
Like, there's lots of stories of guys who've had, you know, their rates
go from like 800 bucks a quarter and this is like commercial rates too.
15,000 and it's like, well, how do I run a business like this?
Like, um, and then they get levied, you know, uh, like, I think there's
like a special COVID levy and stuff.
So, so Melbourne's one thing.
Brisbane, everyone is, the government is spending a fortune on
infrastructure and that's where I am.
And so there are so many jobs and it's all in like infrastructure and property
and it's all around the Olympics.
It's like, you know, whatever it is, three week event.
I mean, honestly, I don't get the excitement, but yeah.
Up until 2032, there's a ton of investment, like billions
and billions of dollars.
So people are coming here.
It's also, I think, a less woke, more kind of live and let live.
It's the closest thing.
To Florida.
We have, let's say, yeah, so I think people have left and they
got, and it's got great weather for like eight months of the year.
So people are coming here.
So Brisbane, I'm bullish on Melbourne.
I'm very bearish on Perth is always cyclical 'cause it's a
regional market that's like very much on the resources cycle.
If the resources cycle is on a downward trajectory, the housing market collapses.
Adelaide is like.
Dead for 20 years and then pumps for five.
And right now it's pumping.
Anja: Yeah,
Dale: it's more expensive than Melbourne, which it makes no sense
'cause there's zero business there.
It's like a government driven economy, like half the buildings in Adelaide,
I worked in commercial property there, or government tenants, so.
So Adelaide, I'm going, yeah, a lot of risk here.
I'm in Brisbane.
I'm a property owner, luckily, and I'm kind of like, I think
this is just gonna keep pumping.
So it depends where you are.
I would be less comfortable about places like, um, you know, nor, uh,
sunshine Coast because I'm not too sure the economy is sufficiently
diversified and developed there, but.
It's hard to say, uh, an but like generally if you had to just
take that aggregate number in Australia, I think just, just up.
Anja: Yeah.
And with Adelaide, I was actually very pleasantly surprised.
It is, it is such a cute little town.
Well, city, I should say city, but it's, it was very pleasantly
surprised when I visited there.
But I know earlier on I mentioned that, um.
It is a protected asset class.
But I did kind of remember as you were speaking, a lot of people are now feeling
like they're being disincentivized to own investment properties
because of the changing regulations.
So we have a housing crisis and it very much, there's laws being
changed that protect their tenant a lot more than the homeowner.
To the point of that, it's very unfavorable for them.
It's just the risk is too high.
Like how did you address that?
Dale: It's, so what I, what I do is kind of just highlight some of the
inherent qualities of property like that you can never mitigate away from,
Anja: can't live in a Bitcoin.
Dale: You can't live in a Bitcoin, but like li like liquid, uh,
like, like Bitcoin's liquid 24 7.
Property's not.
So, you know, you've got these innate qualities of property and.
The tenant is the lifeblood of the asset in the sense that unless you
just wanna buy and like maintain an empty home, um, as an investment,
it's you, you need a tenant.
But tenants are people and, um, and so, um, people, people are uncertain.
You can't, um, can't rely on them for a day.
And yes, you're, you're right, there's so many rules around like tenants having.
So many rights that you as a property owner go like, hold on,
it's not actually your property.
Because in some places you're, you're not allowed to deny a tenant who has a pet.
Now, you know, I love animals actually, but I would, I would want
to defend the right of property owners to go, like, I don't want.
You know, dogs or cats here.
I mean, that's fine.
It doesn't seem like it's a problem, but governments
decide, no, no, that's not fair.
That's not reasonable.
Um, so there's, you know, you just have to acknowledge that these are
the risks when it comes to property.
Um, and I kind of get to this at the end, it's like.
With Bitcoin, it's a set of rules.
You know what the rules are.
The rules are like in stone.
We can bitch and own about core and knots and whatever.
We always finding things to complain about, but no one's gonna suddenly
go, we need more Bitcoin or let's change the, you know, the, the issue
and schedule or whatever stuff.
There's stuff that's like granite that's in stone.
No one's gonna change that, like 21 million and all that kind of stuff.
Property, you've got people and people are a problem because you've got tenants.
They can lose their jobs.
They get divorced, they can wreck things.
They cannot not maintain the property.
They can, you know, create, um, meth labs.
They could just people or people they don't, they can, you know, not pay.
And then you still have a mortgage and then the other people with your
property or the bureaucrats and.
They need to be doing a bunch of social signaling to their
electorate that we care about you.
Um, it's more signaling than anything else.
It's not actually about care.
So they'll go and enact a whole bunch of laws that are, um, ostensibly to address
some grievance, but actually, like, it's just, it's just window dressing.
And so things like, you know.
We don't have enough housing, so we're gonna limit your ability as an owner
to do short term a Airbnbs, um, or, you know, we don't, we have to allow people
with pets or whatever the case may be.
And so it's not your property.
You're at the whim of these people.
And I've experienced that as a property owner.
Like I want to do some things and, you know, my, this
needs to be a surgeon height.
And there's, there's a whole safety compliance, um, uh.
Complex.
Like, you know, that indu the military industrial complex, there's like a safety
industrial complex here in Australia, which is like, I care about safety.
And it's like, we must have the rails 17 centimeters above the ground, not 16,
because then it's, you know, dangerous.
And so like I had these people come around the property, uh, 'cause we
bought a pool and a deck and it was like, no, your handrail's wrong.
So they had to just do all this.
Work, try and fix my handrail.
'cause some random kid could jump in my property and I'm like, dude,
I've got an, I've got a baby.
Okay.
And plus we're Africans.
We take responsibility for our children.
So you know, it's not your property.
Um, and so that's what real estate investors need to know.
It's like, um, you know, you might agree with some of the rules.
Yeah, there's nothing you can do.
Oh, um, I'll give you one more example and I'll shut up.
Basically, yeah.
We bought a granny cher so we could, um, accommodate the in-laws, um, uh, when
they come stay for long periods of time.
Automatically, my rates went up 33%.
So I was like a phone.
I was like, are you guys like for like, are you sure?
You know, like, you know, we're not doing short term letting, he's like,
no, just this is how it is now.
Um, just classify it as this.
So I'm like, okay.
So if I rented out now short term, it's the same.
Yeah.
Okay.
Well now.
You're giving me an incentive to now go and rent it out because
you're charging me now, you know.
Um, 30% more for what would be a vacant granny flat, so, okay.
Anja: There's just way too many examples like that, and this is why
I have a strong bias towards Bitcoin because there's just so little to
think about and to worry about.
I'm the only person that has, I have to worry about exactly like the
responsibility ultimately falls on me, and I don't have to worry about tenants.
I don't have to worry about the government changing regulations
and laws and things like that.
So it's just, it's a very peaceful way to live and volatility.
Yeah.
It's not something that, that actually, um, concerns me so if you had to summarize
the pros and cons of digital gold or Bitcoin versus property, um, let's
maybe just focus on Australia for now.
What might those be?
Dale: Okay, so there's a, there's a lot, but I'm, I'm gonna just
kind of whip through what I think are the most relevant.
So obviously when it comes to Bitcoin, it's more scarce.
Um, it's infinitely divisible relative to property.
You can't divide your property up.
Um, sell like a portion of it.
Um, Bitcoin's liquid 24 7 globally, property's not, um.
You can take your Bitcoin wherever you go.
Um, you take 12 words in your head, whereas, you know, your property is
very much jurisdictionally bound.
There's a ton of transaction costs in property, and people don't
necessarily factor that in when they're doing the investments.
They just talk gross numbers.
Um, and, uh, you know, there's ongoing costs when it comes to
property, you know, whether it's maintenance, whether it's, uh, um,
rates, taxes, all that kind of stuff.
Bitcoin is like, just, you know, you might have some, uh, collaborative custody
costs, like if you are using like a Nunchuck or a Theo or something like that.
But, you know, and fundamentally, like, it doesn't cost you much to actually hold it.
Um, it's much more accessible.
So like you can buy like a, you know, a dollar's worth, uh, if you want Bitcoin,
but property, obviously you need to, you need to have a sizable deposit like.
The government would say five percent's great.
I think that's very stupid, but you'd probably wanna get closer to 20%.
Um, I think that Bitcoin's better is also super transparent, you know, like.
We know what Bitcoin's trading everywhere around the world.
We know what the price is 24 7.
It's like mark to market pricing.
Whereas real estate, part of what makes it like really inefficient is I
can't believe how many different ways you can sell real estate these days.
Um, and you don't need to disclose the price.
And it's like, it's not an open market in that sense.
Like you don't actually.
Know what the value is all the time.
And I think with Bitcoin you really have like true ownership, like a
hundred percent fully self-sovereign.
You might exist within a jurisdiction with laws as to what you can do with it
and whatnot, but fundamentally, no one can confiscate, no one can take it, no
one can tax it without your permission.
Like they need your corporation with real estate.
Like it's just like a fundamentally.
Permissioned asset.
And then from an investment perspective, I think this is huge.
You know, think about the emotional time and energy it goes into
managing an investment property.
Like people refer to their Airbnbs, um, as, as if like that's the asset,
but, and it just, the amount of work, you know, like involved and the,
and the, and the stresses of it.
Whereas like, I don't know how much time you spend on your Bitcoin, but
maybe I do like a key signing ceremony like every six months or 12 months.
And there's no people to deal with.
Um, it doesn't really matter what happens with interest rates.
I don't have neighbors.
It doesn't depreciate.
Um, you know, and as long as I looked after it, like, you know,
it's not gonna get burnt down.
So it's like a real, it's like there's no contest.
It's like w you know, it's w uh, yes.
WWE versus John Jones, heavyweight Champion of the world, uh, UFC.
It's just like if they were in a fight.
There's no com.
It's not even a competition, it's just, but you need to understand Bitcoin.
If you don't understand it, you know you're gonna look at
that and go, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Still internet funny money.
Anja: Yeah.
That, um, UFC reference was completely lost on me, but hopefully the
listener will, will understand.
I, yeah, maybe
Dale: someone will.
Yeah.
Speaker 3: Need a way to sign, verify and secure your Bitcoin Australia's
one-stop shop for Bitcoiners.
Has you covered from signing devices, nodes, and backup solutions?
To bid access day decor and apparel, visit shop bitcoin.com au.
Anja: Um, but I also wanted to talk about your legal background.
Um, and I remember, I wanna say it was earlier this year or last year.
Time has gone by so quickly, but do you remember when there was a court case,
which I think was a criminal court case in Australia, and people were suddenly
thinking that we were going to change the CGT rules on Bitcoin because, um.
There was a case where it was someone was trying to make a, a lawyer was trying
to make a case that Bitcoin is money.
No.
Do you remember?
I'm trying to, like, this is very,
Dale: details are fuzzy.
Hey, and, uh, yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, honestly, especially over the last couple of years, my brain's
a bit fuzzy post child and I, I didn't even give birth, but, um.
But I do know there was some sort of reference.
So, um, yeah, I mean, to me that would be a, that would be an incredible
win, um, as a community if we there we're gonna have to get there.
Could you imagine?
I mean, because then honestly, like if it, if it got the same treatment
as, um, your primary residents, like basically, you know, CGT free.
It would be like, we would attract a ton of people here.
Um, it'll become like this really friendly environment for capital.
But of course, of course that's as long as we've got the current crop in charge.
And, and I don't even see a better alternative frankly, at this point.
But, um, to me that is a pipe dream and, uh, I'm probably, I'd
probably be moving to another jurisdiction that does welcome that.
Far sooner than that will happen, uh, in my life.
I can't see it happening here.
Anja: Yeah, I do remember now what it was, it was a lawyer who's trying to
make a case that Bitcoin is not property.
Um, and therefore it was not stolen, or something along those lines.
And then people were getting excited, oh, is this going to change the,
the, you know, if it's not property, then that means it's CGT exempt.
And it was like, oh,
Dale: yes, I know what you're talking about now.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yes, absolutely.
Yeah, it was a very.
And it was like, it was a magistrate's court judgment.
And it's like, okay, if you understand legal precedent, um, which is like,
and I'm not gonna, you know, say judge it, those, those guys don't matter.
But they, they, what they say is pretty irrelevant in the big picture.
Um, it's like.
I mean South African magistrates versus, um, Aussie ones I'd hope
are a little bit better or, or, or, or probably worse rather.
So I'd imagine the quality's better, but when you go to the lower courts,
like you can have an opinion, but it doesn't really matter.
Um, in the, you know, because you can, you can rule one way.
If the people on the other side have the money and they don't like the
outcome, they'll just appeal and.
I can't see that ever being upheld.
It was just a, a, a, like a single magistrate that I think deviated, of
course, with it didn't make sense to me.
But anyway, look, we can live in hope, eh, we, we certainly can live in hope.
Anja: Yeah, exactly.
But I did actually wanna, uh, that was in the lead up to my next question
is, um, I wanted you to maybe explain to my audience about the difference
between Bitcoin and crypto from a legal perspective, because I thought
that would be an interesting angle.
Dale: So yeah, we're not, when I first got exposed to the space, say 2020.
It was pretty obvious to me there was a significant difference.
And it wasn't because I was, had a unique lens or anything.
It's just like I, I learned from probably the, the best, like the Lynn Dens and
the Parker Lewises and the VJ Boy party.
So that helped.
But then when you spend a bit of time in crypto and I did, um,
it becomes even more obvious.
So I shortly after.
Kind of discovering Bitcoin for the third time.
I was like, I want to try and make this now what I'm doing.
But, you know, um, it's not easy just to go and get a job in Bitcoin.
It's not a lot of opportunities.
Um, you know, and there's no one to, there's no CEO or marketing
team, so I. I was like, okay, how do I work in this space?
And I got a, because I've been, you know, I can write really well.
And I was like, you know what, uh, maybe I can go into media.
So I was in crypto media, I worked for two different publications.
I was like their, um, managing editor.
And you got to see how the, um, crypto sausages made, if you like,
in the sense of just incentives.
Right?
So, um, like just at a high level.
Um, you know, take the morality out of it.
'cause I think crypto is deplorable stuff.
Like, I think it's just, it is this, um, asymmetric one-sided
zero sum, uh, exploitative, um, game that's venture capitalists
play and retails on the other end.
But let's say, I don't have that for you.
Let's just like.
Talk, um, more neutrally.
Tell me more.
You think because
I absolutely, I absolutely hate crypto.
But you know, Bitcoin as sailor would say, is like an asset without an issuer.
There's no central authority that is, um.
Mining Bitcoin.
It's truly decentralized in the sense that you and I can run nodes.
Um, and it is very much a commodity.
Much like no one's got the monopoly on mining gold or timber or copper
or any of these rare earth minerals.
Like, it, it's, it's the same in that sense.
We can mine at home.
I mean, we are not necessarily gonna win.
Uh, uh, probably we are probably not gonna win a block.
Um.
But we could run a minor here at, you know, at home for very little cost.
So you've got.
You've got that.
And then you've got crypto, which is like decentralized in name only in the sense
that, um, you have to, in order for you to run a node, you need to have a very,
um, there needs, there's, there needs to be a very significant text stack.
You need to be quite tech savvy.
And it's very like, um, you could say like data intensive, uh, because
what they're optimizing for is speed.
Um, and.
So they're largely centralized.
They run on Amazon web servers, um, or things like that.
And there's typically like a founder, they actually do have a marketing budget.
They've got a PR team, and, um, the best way to think of
them is actually as companies.
Um, but.
Unlike, um, like, and I use this example all the time, so if you and I wanted to
create a company, um, and then go and raise a bunch of capital on the A SX or,
you know, the, the Aussie Stock Exchange, there's like a million disclosures that
you and I would've to make, we'd have to meet so many different requirements.
Um, just.
For us to be listed because then you've got like a ton of liquidity.
What venture capitalists figured out was like crypto is like a,
a panacea in the sense that you don't have to comply with laws.
You can make up this thing, you can market this thing, you can say it
does X, Y, Z solves this problem.
That problem, um.
And, and what you have is essentially like fast time to liquidity.
Like the hardest thing with a normal company is building up and getting
to a scale where you can sell it off to a private equity company.
Um, or you can list it on a stock exchange, like that's
how you supposed to do it.
That's hard with crypto.
You can circumnavigate all that.
You don't need to worry about disclosures.
You don't have to worry about actually building a product
with a product market fit.
You can just promise stuff and you can literally have instant liquidity on tap.
And so what the incentive is, obviously is for these companies,
which are just unregistered securities from my perspective, which is
another way of saying they just.
Digital penny stocks.
It's like, um, and, and they, they always have a series of promises and use cases,
but there is no product market fit.
And, and so the early investors who essentially printed this money,
like this token out of thin air, um.
Allocates to themselves.
Obviously the, the developers, the early investors, the venture
capitalists who fund the marketing get like it at a dramatic discount.
They then will list it on a shitcoin casino.
The shitcoin casino gets paid a listing fee.
Mm-hmm.
Um, so they're incentivized to lift, lift all the garbage.
Fight coin, Dodge coin.
Well, it doesn't matter, like as long as it's got.
Liquidity.
And so these things trade like yo-yos because there's very thin liquidity.
It's, they're highly concentrated.
So like the Genie coefficient, which is like a measure of, you know, inequality.
Like they, there's a small group that are like, own a very large chunk,
and then if you have the marketing dollars, you can pump that up and down.
And so what these people have done is they've just been able to
enrich themselves at the expense of retail and they, so they,
they, I think it's in bad faith.
I don't think these people are, are just ignorant 'cause
it's too complicated for that.
So.
You know, you don't find Ripple buying XRP or whatever.
They just sell.
And same with E. They don't buy their shares back, like a company
that believes in itself, buys their shares back, but they just sell.
Um, and that tells you everything you need to know and the same, every single one.
And so they're all just utter.
Garbage.
There's no there, there.
Um, and the only thing they can hang their hook on has been, um, that
there are stable coins and that's like actually a use case and starts with it
started with e then it goes to Solana.
'cause Solana's Foster more centralized.
Then it goes to Tron, which is even more centralized, even faster.
And so Bitcoin's trying to do things slowly and make sure things don't break.
And we, they're building like things really responsibly.
Um, and we are building in layers, much like the internet is built in layers.
Um, and so there's only one money, there's only, you know, we don't
need another email protocol.
Um, as an example.
It's already decided.
And it's the same with money.
Just, you know, legally companies versus commodities and
it's like, okay, that's fine.
But um, all you're doing with crypto is speculating and gambling, and
that's fine if you like gambling.
It's like, I don't care.
But it's not an investible asset clause.
It's not, there's nothing there.
It's just anyone can spin up a token.
Um, and you and I could, we could just, you know, call it the Ondale
token and it's not that complicated.
I've looked it up.
Um, it does require like probably a two or $3,000 if you're keen,
Anja: if you're keen to make money.
Um, yeah, it, it's interesting because I notice, like, you know,
when people, my friends and family come to me and ask me about crypto,
I'm like, well, Bitcoin not crypto.
And then I try to kind of steer them in the direction and like, I don't wanna come
across as elitist or like, I'm trying to be a purist, but I really do wanna try
and protect people as much as possible from that predatory marketing because.
It is just that it is predatory marketing, but do you think that like the.
Their tune has changed in the last couple of years.
I remember, well, actually I don't remember, but I wasn't around.
Well, I was around, but I wasn't in the space.
I mean, I was alive, but you know, years ago they were
trying to compete with Bitcoin.
Do you think that has that narrative has changed?
Like they're no longer trying to do that?
Or do you think they still are?
Dale: I think they do what's called like affinity scamming, so they kind of go
like, um, well, you know, Bitcoin's a real thing, but like, so we're similar.
So it's like, you know, so they try to like, it lends some sort of foe
legitimacy to what they're doing, but, um, definitely, definitely, uh, the, the
tuners change in the sense that it's, the narrative has to keep evolving and like,
this is not my, this is not original, but.
Uh, my view is basically that, you know, it starts off with like ETH is the
world computer, then it's powering, um, stable coins, which actually have value.
Like people don't understand that there's something valuable about a digital US
dollar token for people in like Malawi.
Okay, that's helpful.
Um.
Then it goes like, but hold on, we can create art and we can store
pictures and things like that.
And it's like, Hey man, how backward are you?
You still mucking around with physical paintings?
We just create these little monkeys and you know, there's only a hundred
of them and you know, gimme half a million dollars or whatever it is.
And then it's like, ugh, NFTs are not a thing.
And then meme coins come, and then meme coins are like the, I think
it's the final boss of crypto.
Like there is no more runway for crypto because, um, when you have a meme coin,
it's like a almost explicit admission that this is just pure nonsense.
Like there is a hundred percent no.
There, there, there, um, we are not even pretending anymore.
Like, and, and, and I think that's what people have started to see.
I think they realize like.
There was the meme coins, you know, fervor and like, you know,
all the, all the celebrities are incentivized to create their meme coin.
Like that HK tour girl, she did incredibly well, you know, um, her 15
minutes of fame and she created a token and like, you know, it was a bit of an
Emile, didn't know what it was, and was like, some guys came up to him like,
Hey, just build a hock to a token.
And then, you know, obviously rugged because that's the
way you play the game and.
People gonna be pissed.
Um, and rightly so.
But that's it.
And I don't think there's anything left.
If you also just look at the thing as like, there's a couple other metrics.
The one is like Bitcoin's dominance ratio.
So there's like a ratio obviously of Bitcoin relative to the everything else.
And as the number of tokens has grown, I used to say 10,000 and like
then you started building meme coins and then you started doing like.
It's why Safe calls him like the mother eth, the mother
ars asshole of, um, crypto.
Because you can, you don't have to build a whole brand new blockchain.
You can build a token on top of eth.
And so it just spits out all this utter horse shit.
And so we have like literally millions of tokens.
So as the number of tokens grows.
Bitcoin's dominance ratio has continued to climb, and so it's like
in numbers, it's just like gone from 10,000 to maybe a, oh, I can look
up in real time what it is today.
I mean, honestly, I think it was like 10 or 20 million tokens in existence.
So what we see is the market's telling.
It's like, okay, this is not real.
Then you start thinking about like.
How many of them have hit like all time highs since the retail speculative
fervor of 20, 20, 21, let's say None.
Um, I don't follow crypto that closely, but.
I believe they haven't, like this is what I've actually read.
If you look at a chart of these tokens measured in Bitcoin, which is
how they used to be, um, purchased, like you needed to buy Bitcoin,
it'll buy these crypto tokens.
You also see the price goes sort of from the top left to the bottom right, because
everything loses value in Bitcoin terms.
Um, so.
When you think about, and then you layer on top the fact that there are
no sovereign wealth funds that are going to be like, should we invest
in this programmatically scarce unseasonable neutral reserve asset?
Or should we invest in, um, vitalic but's Ethereum computer, um, experiment called
e, um, which is effectively a company.
Without revenue, you know, like it's not even a choice.
So there are no serious investors in crypto.
So for all those reasons, like I think crypto will die.
Like I think, you know, crypto in a decade will be like, oh, do you remember that?
That was just absolutely stupid.
Like what were people thinking?
But.
This is just part of the evolution of a new space.
You're gonna have an innovation pop up, a whole bunch of copycats.
Grifters want to come in and they'll go, we've got a different Bitcoin.
This is Bitcoin Satoshi Vision.
This is Bitcoin cash.
We've got other tokens.
Bitcoin's slow.
And it's like, come on man.
Have you heard about lightning?
So, you know.
These are not serious people, Anya.
Um, they're grifters and they also be dismissed, um, instantly because, um,
I've seen, yeah, I've seen it firsthand how it works at a crypto publication
and yeah, it's, it's pretty appalling.
So people need to try, um, they're gonna speculate, that's fine.
But, um, this is a game for venture capitalists.
This is not a game for retail.
So buyer beware.
Anja: Yeah.
I, I love, that was a really, really good summary.
And yeah, the BSV crowd is something else.
I keep getting comments from them on my Twitter and it's,
yeah, it's just very interesting.
But yeah, I, I definitely think of like, it's, I think the crypto industry
is so sinister that if I had a choice between working in central banking or in
crypto, I would choose central banking.
I think that.
Dale: What does that say exactly?
No, it's unconscionable.
Um, and it's, it, you know, it's, it's so funny 'cause I used to work at a crypto.
Magazine, as I said, and these companies would reach out, um, NFT
creators, you know, um, and they'd be like, oh, look at what we're doing.
It's like, you know, a piece of toast, um, with some tomato sauce spaces.
And like, you know, these are some local Aussies.
And so the owner of the publication who subsequently sold it to a
Shitcoin casino, surprise, he went and bought those pieces of toast.
And then insisted that I run a toast story.
So I couldn't help but be sarcastic about how the hell are people buying pieces
of digital toast and then had to have it like removed and then like apology.
I mean, it's just, this is the kind of stuff that goes into it, you
know, the incentives if, if you know that you can almost front run, like
I can literally just see a bump up.
I mean, they.
The owner used to have a NFT, uh, it an open sea, like his
username was noob crusher.
So in other words, I'm actually being really open about the
fact that I, I'm exploiting you.
I use my own publication.
I, I promote all these worthless, um, NFTs, and then you go, you buy
them on the back of that 'cause he had great traffic and good SEO.
So I was like, no, I can't do this.
If
Anja: people tell you who they are, you should believe them.
Dale: Exactly.
Totally unethical that dude.
Anja: Yeah.
Um, but before we wrap up, I have heard in the grapevine that, um, you have a
Bitcoin will start a kit coming out.
Do you wanna tell us about that?
Dale: Yeah, absolutely.
So, um, you know, being a bitcoin, aspiring Bitcoin entrepreneur doing
different things, trying to, to see, um, how it can make a, a lasting impact.
One of the things I've noticed is that nobody talks about like actually
having a will and feeling really confident in a wall and like, um.
Being a lawyer, I tend to make things sound simpler than like they are.
I kind of imagine that people can go, yeah, it's so simple,
man, why don't you just do it?
And then I'm like, actually, you know what?
I studied that for a long time and you know, I've been trained
and I know how to read contracts.
I know how to think.
So in that regard, I go, okay, maybe there is an opportunity to
create like a Bitcoin focus will.
Like a starter kit that is low cost that you don't have to talk
to like a lawyer, um, that you can essentially complete on your own.
It'll have all the fields available for you, and then it will, but it's Bitcoin
ready in the sense that you wanna make sure that your Bitcoin gets transferred.
And so I'm putting together like a, a Bitcoin.
We'll start a pack and I'd love to get some sort of folks who just want
to come and test it out with me.
See, see how it lands.
Um, it's really early days, but, um, pretty excited about it.
And yeah, I'm hopeful that it can be a, uh, like long term,
it could be like a low cost.
Let's say get off zero in terms of your world.
Get something in place because there's two things you wanna avoid, one.
The state's getting involved in your affairs once you're
dead, like you don't want that.
And two, you wanna make sure your Bitcoin is safely transferred.
So if you self custody, it's only as good as your, as your wool.
And if you don't have a good enough wool and kind of the digital breadcrumbs, you
know, you're donating to the network.
So I think those are the two core problems that I think this might solve.
And.
No, I'd love to just get some feedback from people in real life.
So if anyone's listening and wants, uh, a bit of assistance in that
regard, you may get in touch with me.
Anja: Yeah, no worries.
I will put all your contact details in the show notes.
Um, do you have any final words for the audience?
Dale: Um, what I would say is that I think.
I think much like most people this year has been somewhat, um,
underwhelming in many respects, lackluster, and it's very easy to get
complacent and feel somewhat cheated.
But there's a couple things I've been thinking about and
you know, the one is, um.
Obviously we need to have a long-term time horizon with this particular
asset, and no one said it was gonna be up and to the right and easy.
Um, and the less expectations you have, the happier you will be.
Um, and also just remember that all of.
Bitcoin's trading days are like compressed.
The positive trading days are compressed in like 10 days.
So for the other sort of 355 days, it's just boring as hell.
And so do your best to kind of just get yourself psychologically ready
for potentially what could be another boring year, two years, three years.
We know where this is going, but I've personally found it a little bit
challenging 'cause my expectations didn't align with reality and
I've had to kind of reset and go.
Alright, we still got the fastest horse in the race, the use case and the um,
value proposition as good as ever.
And I couldn't be more bullish.
It's just green lights everywhere I look.
And maybe that's not reflected in the value today, like in the
price, but um, you're not too late.
And, uh, yeah, that's all I would say.
I think I want to finish on that kind of optimistic note.
Anja: That's a great way to end.
Thanks for your time, Dale.
Dale: Awesome.
Thank you Anya.
Great chatting to you.
Anja: Likewise.