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For the McHugh family, life felt like too much for too long. They have faced more than their fair share of trauma and pain and eventually reached a point where they weren't sure they could take anymore. That's when Leith attended Milestones, followed shortly by her son Holden.
Today, we're joined by Leith, Aaron, Holden, and Averi McHugh, who offer a glimpse into their family's journey to find individual and collective healing. In a vulnerable and beautiful conversation, they share the lessons they learned while prioritizing healing for every family member and how they've formed lives and connections beyond what they ever thought possible.
Hear More from Leith on The Living Centered Podcast
Hear more of Leith and Holden's story
Creators and Guests
What is Living Centered Podcast?
So many of us go through life feeling out of touch with ourselves, others, and the world around us. We feel disconnected, overwhelmed, distracted, and uncertain of how to find the clarity, purpose, and direction we so deeply, so authentically, desire. The Living Centered Podcast in an invitation to another way of living.
Every episode, we sit down with mental health experts, artists, and friends for a practical and honest conversation about how to pursue a more centered life—rediscovering, reclaiming, and rooting in who we truly are.
Welcome to the Treating Trauma Podcast. Join us for this limited series of conversations with our clinicians and alum. Together, we'll explore the pillars that support the Milestone's innovative recovery that works. These conversations are an inside look into the approach, expertise, healing, hospitality, and community that make up the Milestones experience. Let's jump in.
Speaker 1:Hey friends. Welcome to another episode of the treating trauma podcast. Throughout this series, we have gotten to introduce you to several of our incredible clinicians and several of our wonderful alumni. And today we have a real treat because you get to meet not one, but two milestones alum who also joined us with two other members of their family. That's right.
Speaker 1:I got to sit down with four individuals from the McHugh family to get to hear their milestone stories. Starting with Lee, the mama, who shares her story of coming to milestones after a really hard season, not only for herself, but their entire family. There's is such a beautiful story of redemption and doing their own work and leaning in to the hard process. I just am so grateful to have gotten to sit down with them. And then Holden, her son shares how he ended up at milestones and what his journey looked like.
Speaker 1:And her husband Aaron shares a little bit about how their experiences impacted him and later led him to do his own work at on-site. And they're joined by their daughter Avery. So together at the four McCues share their family story. And I am so grateful to have gotten to hold space for this story to hear more about them, and to discover how their intersection with milestones and the larger on-site ecosystem has continued to impact their journey as they continue to do this work. And as we share, it is a lifelong process.
Speaker 1:So I can't wait for you to hear from the McCues. Welcome, McCues. I'm so excited that you're all here. Before we get started, will you each say your name so that we can associate your name with your voice?
Speaker 2:Okay. This is Leith.
Speaker 3:Hi there. This is Aaron.
Speaker 4:Hi. I'm Holden.
Speaker 1:Hi. I'm Avery. I am so excited. I think this is one of my favorite interviews I've ever gotten to do, partially because I have just really admired and grown to love your family from afar. And so to get to sit down with all of you and hear your story firsthand is really special.
Speaker 1:Leith, we've chatted with you on the Living Centered podcast and gotten to share your story, but I'm excited to loop it all in. So if one of you would just kind of give me an overview of how your past initially intersected with on-site and milestones.
Speaker 2:So I went to storyline conference, Donald Miller's conference back in maybe that was like 2012 or '13 and Miles and Bill and Lori Lokey were all there and they shared about on-site. And I remember being struck like by what they were sharing describing this place that just was like, oh my gosh, if I could only go to a place like that. Then, so that was the first encounter. And then probably within, maybe somewhere within the year or two, found myself in a place of needing what I consider some kind of a hospital, but not an ER and not a psych ward. And so remembered about milestones and made a call and kind of described what was going on.
Speaker 2:And they were like, yeah, I think this might be a good fit. So that was how our original connection to On-site happened. So milestones first and then Holden went there within a year or so after me, six months after me, I can't remember exactly, but that's how it all started.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh. I don't think I realized that milestones was kind of the first entry in, because then you went on to do several workshops and kind of on the other side of on-site getting to do the life after loss and living centered and leadership and and and and is that correct? So the first was milestones.
Speaker 2:First was milestones. Yep.
Speaker 1:And I've heard you share before about that, like, need for a hospital need to kind of put on your own mask. I actually think those are the words that I've heard you hear say before. So what did that look like? Because I know you were coming out of a season, especially as a family where you had been doing a lot of caretaking for everyone else. So what prompted you to kind of raise your hand and say, okay, it's time for me to take care of me?
Speaker 2:It's different doing this with everybody. I was at a place that I was just, the wheels were falling off the bus of our entire family. Everybody was not okay. So I was like, I don't want to die. I just don't know if I can keep going.
Speaker 2:So what's the in between of that? So for me, that's the place I was at and what some of that looks like was Hadley had just died. So we're back at January 2011, Hadley, our other daughter had passed away. Holden had become addicted to drugs and alcohol, or at least it came to light that he was addicted to drugs and alcohol. Our marriage went in the shitter because of all of the stress.
Speaker 2:Avery's hanging on for the ride. Yeah. Being left somewhere behind in the story. And more of my and our childhood trauma was coming to surface and was just like, Uncle, I'm out, like all done. I'm out.
Speaker 2:I don't know what else to do. So that's the space I was in emotionally. Again, it's like laying on the bathroom floor. I don't know what else to do, but I didn't want it to end. I just Yeah.
Speaker 2:If I could keep going.
Speaker 1:And what would you add to that season?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was all too much. It was too much for too long in 20 categories. So, you know, we were all just living in like fifteen minute increments. It wasn't even like get through the day. It was just see if we can some each of us find a way for the next hour to try and not, yeah, despair, lose hope, give up, crawl in a hole, all the things.
Speaker 3:So it was not good. It was dark. So when Leith proposed going to milestones, it was like, hey, let's what if we wasn't even like start. It was just as she phrased, this is not a hospital, but it is. This is not a spa resort, but it is.
Speaker 3:This is not therapy, but it is. You know, it was like, like, okay. Yeah. We've tried everything else. Let's give this a roll.
Speaker 3:And then when we went, then it really was the beginning of other possibilities that we just hadn't. We'd been down so many therapy paths and so many intensives and done all the things, but it wasn't until we On-site was an important component of the journey that we had already been on. It wasn't the silver bullet. However, it was a really a safe place to be, to really let down and step away from life in a way that was helpful. So you could actually start to explore how to heal and what to do differently versus just returning to your daily life, our daily life.
Speaker 3:You go for an hour long counseling or a weekend long intensive, but then you just go back to your life. And it was just our collective lives were all just impossible for each of us in different and shared ways.
Speaker 1:Holden and Avery, how old were you when it would have been like, what, twenty fourteen? Is that right? When you went?
Speaker 2:I think 14, yeah.
Speaker 1:So how old would y'all have been?
Speaker 5:I was 14 or 15.
Speaker 4:Yeah. And it was in when I went well, that would have been twenty fourteen when you went, Lee, and so, yeah, twenty fifteen when I went. And so I was 18 and 19.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I think one of the barriers that people feel like attending milestones is just that belief of, like, how could I actually step away from my life? And, I mean, you had kids at home. And at that time, Holden was struggling. And as you're saying, Avery was kind of holding on for dear life.
Speaker 1:So walk us through, Leith, like, did those first couple of days look like and what were some of the barriers that you initially felt going into milestones?
Speaker 2:Would say initial initial barrier I thought was going to be money until we were able to stop and look and be like, I think we're at a place where we can't afford not to do this. Like, what is the cost? You know, what costs more? So that felt like an initial barrier until we were just like, what if that was just off the table? What do I need?
Speaker 2:And then once I think Avery and I actually had a girls weekend in Nashville the week or two before I went. We went to go see One Direction concert. And so I drove her out to on-site. Gosh, I did not expect all this. I did not expect the emotion, but it's so different to have everyone's face on here.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I drove her out so she could see where I would be. So she could see that it wasn't like weird or scary or, you know, it was like safe and there's horses and land and, you know, just safe, safe place. I was going to be in a great place. And she would have a picture in her mind of where that was.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I love that.
Speaker 2:So that was a huge bonus that we got to do that right before, because I was most concerned about her in the sense that Holden was heading off to college. Like actually, Erin moved him out there right when I got to Milestones. I missed out on all of that. It was one thing I just needed to let go of was I can't be there because I've got to be here. But I knew Holden was excited to get out of the house for one and also to start college and do other things.
Speaker 2:So I was less concerned about how he would feel while I was gone. And then I think once I got there, I was just so relieved to not have to think or worry about a thing. There was nothing I could do about anything else that was going on. And it just gave me space and permission to just check out of that role of mom and wife and be able to be like, I'm 100% here for my healing now. And I knew Avery was well taken care of.
Speaker 2:I think we had some things set up. Friends were checking in on her and she had plans with friends and Erin was taking, you know, I knew he was going to take good care of her and whatever. And I knew Holden was excited about school. So I actually, I felt pretty good while I was there that everybody was going to be okay, but it was a big adjustment, you know,
Speaker 1:that's a lot of transition for your family in one time. I imagine what was it like on the other side of that, Aaron and Holden and Avery and kind of when Leith was going to milestones and making that decision and being gone and not being able to check-in and kind of your equilibrium as a family is in flux because there's so much transition. What did that look like for you guys?
Speaker 3:How about you, Avery Holden?
Speaker 4:My answer is pretty short. And I'm like, I have no idea. I'm like, I'm I am thinking back on this, and I'm a little embarrassed, but then I realized I also like, for some reason, like, I'm not I'm not embarrassed. I'm like, well, you know, it's the best I could at the time, but it's like, oh, I haven't I'm like it's just like it's almost hearing this, like, for the first time. I know we've talked about all these things, but I'm like, I couldn't tell you.
Speaker 4:And then when it's like, oh, yeah. Like, that was when I was moving into college. Like, I have memories of moving into college with dad, and I knew he was there. I knew mom wasn't, but I don't know why. I didn't know why mom wasn't, like, in my memory.
Speaker 4:You know? So, anyway, just I don't I was not present for this.
Speaker 5:I feel the exact same way. I'm like, I don't know. I don't really remember, honestly. But I remember when my mom went there, but I don't remember the time or how long it was or anything. But, yeah, I also kinda blacked that out too.
Speaker 5:So
Speaker 4:Which, like, not to be overly analytical. Yeah. But it's like feel like that just says, like, plenty. You know? Like, that just says, like, where we were all at.
Speaker 4:It's not like because it was just like, oh, I don't know, like, what which grocery store she went to that day. It's just like, no. There's these big life events happening, me going to college, her going into milestones, and I couldn't tell you what was going on because I was I was not there.
Speaker 5:How long were you even there for?
Speaker 2:That one, I was there for two weeks. And then Holden, when he went, he was there fifty five days. But at the time milestones, you could be there for two weeks. Now it's a minimum of thirty days. But I was there, I think fifteen days.
Speaker 5:I think I was also just out of the loop and I guess I didn't really realize what was all happening.
Speaker 2:It is very telling that the amount of trauma that was present all over the place is like, even the kids are like, I barely even remember that. Very telling. Yep.
Speaker 1:Very interesting. So if you could give us just a couple of highlights of your experience of what it looked like for you and maybe what it was like coming home too. So what were some of the highlights or takeaways that you think of?
Speaker 2:Couple highlights for me were, just the overall program, the way, the way things were set up, it was like, oh my gosh, adventure therapy, equine therapy, you know, group and individual therapies, a couple of things I hadn't done before. And so I was, I think I felt really hopeful because it was some new things to be trying that were very, very, very impactful for me, all of those. And a highlight is the laughter of, like once you all settle in and you become friends and you kind of become family with maybe some more than others, and you're all living in this space and it's making light of like when we get in the shuttle or the bus or whatever it was to go into town or wherever we got to go for an outing, it was like, we called it the trauma train. And we passed the trauma llamas and just some of the funny. So it was lighthearted and also heavy and deep.
Speaker 2:It's interesting because one of the things that stands out is that on my last day, was like, good to go. I'm like, okay, that was a really good, that was good. That was helpful. I uncovered a lot. I knew there was still quite a bit that needed to make its way, but what I was able to let come to surface at that time was able to.
Speaker 2:But on the very last day, Jenny was our therapist at the time. And she was like, you know, is there anything else you need to work on today? And I was like, no, I think I'm good. And I go, well, there's one little thing. Just it's just a little thing is that Hadley's death.
Speaker 2:You know, it's just kind of lingering in my mind, but I'm sure it's not a thing. And she's like, Well, let's just lean into that. And so we did. And what it came down to was when Hadley was dying in the hospital, Avery was laying next to her on one side and I was laying next to her on the other side. And we didn't know if it would be that day, that hour, that week, but we knew it was really close.
Speaker 2:And I hopped up to go take a shower and turned on the monitors to just see where things were at. And when I hopped up, Holden had gotten into my spot laying next. So now both kids are laying next to Hadley. And I looked at the monitors and was like, Oh, that doesn't look good. Went out and asked the nurse, like, Are her numbers drastically declining?
Speaker 2:Like, is this getting really close to end? Should I not go take a shower? And they're like, Oh, wow, this is happening. So after she died, maybe I don't even know if it was that. I don't think it was even that day.
Speaker 2:Think it was like months later, it occurred to me that I didn't get to get close enough to her. Needed, if someone had said she's going to die in the next hour, I would have laid underneath her body and laid her body on top of mine and just stayed there. But I didn't know. And so I was just leaned over her through her entire death and after was like, No, no. And I couldn't get that back.
Speaker 2:And so we ended up doing that. And so one of my sweet friends played Avery, one played Holden, one played Hadley, I laid underneath and one laid on top of me and was able to recreate that scene and find significant amount of healing through that. So that's one of
Speaker 1:the highlights for me. What a gift that was. And I think that's really sacred and really beautiful. And I love that people who are with you in that, I get to hear you share that right now on the screen. It's so precious.
Speaker 1:And I think listening to it, someone saying like it feels a little foreign, that concept of it and how it brought you so much closure. And I think it's just such the beauty of psychodrama and experiential work of being able to write the things in our minds that are keeping us stuck in our trauma. Yeah, thank
Speaker 2:you for
Speaker 1:sharing that, Leith. That was beautiful. You're welcome. So you came home and life continued to life. I think that is another misconception that sometimes people leaving milestones have like, Okay, I've come.
Speaker 1:I've done my trauma work check. Life's going to be great, but life was still going on outside while you were at milestones, and there was a lot going on for your family. And so kind of walk me through what happened next coming out and continuing. You are kind of have been in this journey, but have started really doing this work at a different level or depth, then what did that look like?
Speaker 2:I definitely left super hopeful and then pretty quickly got back home and went, right. Okay, how do we keep going forward? And I would, you know, I attended most of the alumni calls. They used to have evening calls and some things and, you know, wait things to help us kind of keep going. And reality hit back real quick.
Speaker 2:And it was also still true that I had received significant healing. And I feel like it was, you know, within a few months, maybe within that year went, Oh gosh, there's a lot more. Even though I just did two full weeks residential, like how could there be any more? Didn't I cover everything? And there was more and I'll let Holden share about his experience at Milestones.
Speaker 2:But what happened was he got to go to, at the time it was offered that they could go to do Living Centered the last week. For his last week, he was able to do that. So when he left there, he was like, Dad, you would love Living Centered Program. So Aaron went to Living Centered. So then Aaron gets home and he's like, Leith, you would love Living Centered Program.
Speaker 2:And so I ended up going to Living Centered and was like, Okay, that's still, there's more because there was also current trauma. Like in a sense, kind of kept getting re injured. So it's like would deal with some things, childhood stuff and some of Hadley's life and some other things. And then there was re injuring. And I say we, because we all kept getting reinjured.
Speaker 2:It wasn't just me. So then I went back for healing trauma. So I kept going back. That's where I was and that's what I needed. And sometimes I hesitate to say that on these interviews because I also don't want folks to feel discouraged of like, oh my gosh, I'm gonna have to go to On-site 10 times before my shit gets straightened out.
Speaker 2:And that's not always the case. And sometimes it's not just a once and done check it off the box because you did this intense thing. Me, needed more and on-site was the path for me to do that So that's what coming home looked like for me.
Speaker 1:Aaron Holden kinda maybe fill in the gaps for us between what was going on for you guys in this season and then how Holden ended up at milestones. And now Holden's like, I'm not sure I got there.
Speaker 4:I'm like, I I well, I know. Yeah. I can't tell you what's going on with anybody else the entire time. I know it's been with me.
Speaker 2:But
Speaker 1:So you were in college, and what did your first your first semester, your first year of college look like?
Speaker 4:So just to paint a quick picture, just some kind of some bullet points because these all daisy chained into each other is, like, I started to work on my process of coming out as gay when I was, like, ish years old. And because of a lot of things and a lot around our environment where we were living and the, you know, religious structure I was growing up in, there was a lot of shame, and that was not okay. Yeah. It was the was the message I had. And so, anyways, I got into things like self harm very early.
Speaker 4:And among other things, I'd start, you know, some early drinking at 12 or 13, which led to my parents finding out about me, being gay, which at the time we were calling same sex attractions because we kinda couldn't call it the gay thing. And it was just like it was all this stuff was happening. So fast forward to, my sister dies in 2015, Hadley, and I am in the middle of my coming out process for a second time. That's a bit messy. And I I now identify as an alcoholic, so I kind of usually say that during this time, I really needed a drink, as I did.
Speaker 4:And I, you know, at, 17, I get a job. I get a car. I get the ability to start kind of drinking and using a little bit of the way that I wanted to. And, also, that coincided with me coming to terms with being gay, which was, like, way off my shoulders. So I'm feeling great.
Speaker 4:Best time of my life. You know, the pressure and the burning, not glaring, evil eyes, and the sky had disappeared. And I was able to just, like, oh my gosh, be myself, and I felt like king of the world. You know? So things are really great for me at this chapter.
Speaker 4:They find out my parents find out about me doing some drugs and alcohol at the end of my senior year of high school, so when I was 18. And, they take away the car, which was their car, that I was driving and which meant it could be the job and blah blah blah. And I'm kinda pretty miserable, very quick. And a friend of our families, had stopped by the house, and, he's now a sober alcoholic. And he basically told us a little bit about alcoholism and suggested that I go to a treatment center or a center for for trauma and recovery, etcetera.
Speaker 4:I don't know if you were calling. I I now say I've been to three rehabs, but, like, on-site and milestones is not a rehab. But when I'm summarizing the story of people. So anyways, I went off to my first trauma recovery center because I had trauma. I had some Sex trauma is a part of my story, and I have my sister's death clearly, and coming out was rather difficult.
Speaker 4:It's like and I knew there was something wrong with me. You know? And so when I went off to this first rehab, I thought they were very, very, very dramatic for sending me there. I was like, I'm a kid who's smoking some pot in high school. Like, this does not qualify for rehab.
Speaker 4:You know? But like I said, I knew something was wrong. And so and I didn't I didn't like and and I didn't like living, you know, in general. So I was like, okay. I'll give it a go.
Speaker 4:Like, this sounds dramatic, but I'll try. So I did that. And I walk out of rehab number one, you know, trauma trauma facility number one. Having done some work on the sex trauma, doing some work on Hadley's death, a lot a lot of work in both those categories. There's a lot of healing with my parents around the topic of me being gay.
Speaker 4:And it just, you know, just very quickly summarize, I'd say overall, I'm getting a lot of love and support at this point and all those things. So kind of like all the, you know, the trauma is quote unquote cleared, which I guess is kind of echoes what some of what Leith was saying about there being kind of some things different things wash up on shore at different times, you know? And so I was in a pretty great spot, and it's just the best I've been for a long time. I go off to college, and I'm able to, like, be gay finally, which is, like, great. You know?
Speaker 4:And I'm able to and I'm not an alcoholic or an addict. I'm just someone with obsessive tendencies. And so I am there. I'm doing great. I have a little boyfriend at one point, my first boyfriend, very exciting.
Speaker 4:I'm doing great in school. I'm there to study film, which I'd always wanted to do, etcetera, etcetera.
Speaker 1:How about you're clipping through this, etcetera, etcetera? I have a little boyfriend.
Speaker 4:It's just like, there's all noise now. You know? It's like, it was grand, and it wasn't noise back then. It was a lot, but
Speaker 5:it's just like, oh, we could
Speaker 4:spend all day. And then I'll need to, you know, have the whole thing revolve around that. But I have all that. It's great. And I start drinking and using a little bit because I think I can, because I just have obsessive tendencies, and I did work on the trauma, and so I'm good now.
Speaker 4:And I find out very quickly that I'm not it takes a short, like, two and a half, three months for me to be at the bottom of my barrel. And my memory is that, like, basically, I came home for Thanksgiving one week, and I've managed to dodge the conversation about my grades, like, the entire one week that I was home. And then on the last day or so of me being home or in the kitchen, they start my parents start asking, and how are grades going? And they start badgering and badgering. And my memory of it, I don't know what actually went down.
Speaker 4:But I I tend to hold a lot of my emotions in, especially back then, and hold a great stone face, I at least, I think. And I for me, it was like a baby breakdown where I just I think I remember punching her refrigerator and just saying, I don't know if I'm allowed to curse. So saying that, okay. Go. I'm a fuck up.
Speaker 4:I'm a fuck up. I'm a fuck up. And I was just, like, done. And so I thought I took it back to school, and, basically, the narrative I had was if I get my it was clear to my parents that I shouldn't I was not doing well. And I was I was very suicide suicidal.
Speaker 4:I I every thought in my head was suicide, you know, twenty four seven. I was if I wasn't on a substance, I just wasn't sleeping, period. So I'd be up for three, four days at a time, stone cold sober, which is not a great, you know, space to be between your ears when you're at that space of your life. You know? And so blah blah blah.
Speaker 4:I get taken out of school, understandably. And my parents are like, hey. We can provide a way for you to go to Milestones, this thing that your mom just went to. And I was just exasperated. I was just like I was hopeless.
Speaker 4:Like, I had a little bit of hope when I went to the first facility because I was like, well, this is dramatic, but I know there's something something needs work within me. You know, my whole life, I mentioned this because other people may experience it too. Like, my whole life, it felt like someone had poured battery acid right in the center of my chest. It was just gnawing and eating away at me. And when I had the drugs and alcohol, that stuff felt a little bit better.
Speaker 4:And among my other coping mechanisms I had, but that just was always there. So I I thought that might get a little bit better at the first center, but then when it came to when Milestones is in the picture, I was like, why? I'm like, we've already done this. You know? Like, I've like, I actually had hope with the other modalities we tried.
Speaker 4:I I've tried at that time. Like, it had been a little you know, I've I had I wanna say something like 15 or 16 counselors of that phase in my life, like, on and off. I mean, some for multiple weeks, some for just a one check-in session, etcetera. I've done all sorts of kinds of therapy. I was on prescribed medications at this time, and, like, we'd really try I've done a bunch of spiritual resources.
Speaker 4:I just I just we'd really thrown everything I needed to throw at it, so this just did not sound. So I I arrived at so it was a very long answer, but the I arrived at milestones very, very, very hopeless with just, like, nowhere to go and not I wasn't necessarily there because I wanted to be well. I wasn't there because I thought it was gonna help. I was just there because, like, my schedule was suddenly clear. You know?
Speaker 4:Like, it was like it was like, you know, the last house in the block at the time.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I think it makes sense. Of course, you're like, I've tried everything and nothing's worked. I don't know that I wanna keep doing this. That makes total sense.
Speaker 1:And while he was telling that story, your face was, was telling a story. So I'd love to hear a little bit of your thoughts on this.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was probably a combo of it's never fun to go back and retread through these even though we're all in a better place today.
Speaker 1:Hard.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the pain is still real. These are just really, really, really impossible, to just daily watch our family and each of us disintegrating in different ways. You know, when you're asking Leith earlier, for Avery, even watching Avery now at 23, it was really hard to watch Avery at 14. And it was really hard to watch Holden go to rehab. And for all that meant for Holden, it also was really hard that Avery, two of her siblings were gone overnight.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. It's just, there was just so many parts of it that were just so impossible.
Speaker 1:I make up as a dad, word that Holden kept using was helpless. And I make up that would be a feeling that would feel familiar of like, I don't know what to do with this.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I was daily, hourly in over my head. Well beyond my pay grade of preparation for any of it. And it was really, really, really painful to watch of a five person family, everyone suffering and while not understanding how much I was too. So like watching Leith go to on-site, it was both a relief and holding going.
Speaker 3:It was a relief because at least our daily life and everything was intersecting. Then they would have an opportunity to go do that somewhere else with full time support and care. We'll see what, how that, if, if it does, it doesn't help. But the dynamic of, of everybody's pain in the soup together every day was just, it was not great. And we love each other, we always have.
Speaker 3:Now sometimes the way in which we love each other was also painful or attempted to love each other. As Holden was saying when he was coming out, we didn't know what we didn't know. And we didn't know how to do that. We didn't know which part was choice and which part was trauma and which part was design, you know? And so we were exploring first time parents in a uber conservative community too.
Speaker 3:So I think the thing that stands out for me is when Leith came home for milestones, from my recall, things got much worse before they got better. And I would share that for listeners' sake is, you know, you spend all this time, effort, energy, resource for a family member to go to on-site, including myself with the hope of like, okay, great. Well, when I graduate and when I come home, I'll be able to do real life better and different than I And I would say pretty much for all of us, when we came home, it got worse before it got better. And it's like, you don't want to put that on a brochure. And just the reality was, boy, I now have for myself, so I have new tools and new awareness.
Speaker 3:And now I have this thing called my life I'm supposed to do differently. And for each of us, it was rough. Yeah. I would say it was rough in the and it did get better. It was like if you actually keep if you use and apply the tools and begin one of the biggest things for all for at least Leith and I, for sure, I think Holden for you as well was the two degree shifts was such a very practical frame to apply in the moment.
Speaker 3:So it did help also with the shared vernacular across our family system to be able to have conversation of what do you need? Would be, Everything from what would help you feel safe, what would help you feel hurt, to also to taking that too far. And Avery's good at reminding how annoying we can be.
Speaker 1:Never heard that Avery that you're tired of therapy Totally,
Speaker 3:yeah. Too professional, too boundaries, too this, too that. So we definitely don't have all this figured out and where we are today, I wouldn't trade. Who we are today, I wouldn't trade. Who I am today, I just wouldn't want to repeat a lot of the hard road it took to get it.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:What I was thinking while you were talking is one of our clinicians sometimes shares the analogy of a family system being very much like a, like a mobile, like a baby mobile. Is that the right word? And when someone chooses to get healthy, it disrupts it, right? Like everything gets a little bit cattywampus. And the way that you've been functioning, even if it's in dishealth is working, quote unquote, it's what you know to be normal.
Speaker 1:And so it does, it does disrupt it. And so when someone gets healthy or someone changes the the rules of the role they're playing or how they're showing up differently. And, yeah, so it makes so much sense that with all the turmoil, all the transition, all the individual and collective work you guys have done, you're just like in a constant state of let's rediscover our equilibrium. And I I've witnessed that from afar of how you guys have really bumped up against each other and done the hard work and had the honest conversations and been like, let's figure this out. So, Avery, what is going on in your head right now?
Speaker 1:Throughout this conversation, reflecting back in that time, I know you were kind of young and what Leith often jokes is that you say, like, I'm the only normal one. So what was it like for you? What were your feelings
Speaker 5:about this? I don't know. Like I said earlier, a lot of it, I feel like I don't remember. Yeah. And I think a lot of it I don't think it was, like, hidden from me, but I wasn't in on the loop with the three of them, I think.
Speaker 1:That makes sense.
Speaker 5:I think a lot of stuff was going on and I didn't know, but I like knew someone was clown on, but I didn't know what exactly, you know? Mhmm. So I think I was just young, you know? So I wasn't like, and I'm the only one that also hasn't been to On-site out of the four of So I've always said that think I'm the most healthy one, but maybe I'm not now because I'm the only one that hasn't been. But yeah.
Speaker 5:I don't know. I feel like I don't remember much of it. And I feel like I was handling a lot of my own stuff at the time.
Speaker 4:Mhmm.
Speaker 5:Yeah. I feel like a lot of it is blacked out, honestly.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. A lot was going on for you too. I would make up the Yeah. As Aaron said, it is your siblings are now gone.
Speaker 1:Like, what was your normal is no longer normal, and you're
Speaker 5:just like Yeah.
Speaker 1:Even if you didn't know why or what was happening.
Speaker 5:Yeah. Definitely. I know I hated being home alone, though, without holding being there. But yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, Holden, you came into milestones, and you were kind of feeling hopeless, not sure what was gonna happen. What were some of the highlights for you? I've talked to you about it before, and I remember that it took a little bit for you to warm up. You're like, to even begin to open yourself up to maybe doesn't work.
Speaker 4:I remember kind of on the early end, I was already, like, at milestones. It's my first night or two. And doing kind of some of the in you know, like, like, onboarding paperwork, whatever it'd be called, you know, and kind of doing a brief, like, fill in of what was going on. And, I mean, there's just so much shame at that point in my life and just, like, a deep, deep, deep root of, like, I am bad. You know?
Speaker 4:And as I was kind of listing off what I was experiencing, kinda walking in with at that time, just a lot of validation off the bat of, like, that's really hard. You know? It's being like, oh, yeah. You're right. Like, I guess I can know.
Speaker 4:I know it. You know? But then it was, like, another thing to hear it echoed back to me. And that wasn't even, like, we weren't even doing, quote, unquote, the work yet. You know?
Speaker 4:It was, like, that was just to fill out the paperwork. You know? And so, yeah, during it, I mean, I'm trying to remember, like, the, like, specific specifics. One thing that was very specifically meaningful to me, I remember, is that I had a therapist who was an openly gay man, and I had never really been around someone who is openly gay and seemingly happy and healthy. And, you know, he's very he was a very great therapist.
Speaker 4:And so even just having that kind of example for the first time being like, what? Like, that's a way that, like, life can look like this. Because I I I had had not had any like, I I used to joke that the only example I had of anyone being gay was the TV show Modern Family in Ellen DeGeneres. And I was like, and outside of that, I didn't I didn't know. You know, there are a lot of negative narratives from the background I grew
Speaker 2:up in.
Speaker 4:And so that played a role for sure. One thing I had kind of forgotten about until I was explaining to a friend that I was jumping on this podcast and what milestones was, etcetera. And one thing I'd forgotten about was the spirituality aspect because that's and that that's something that everybody always needs or gets very excited about, but, like, I've spirituality has always been very important to me. And the flavor of spirituality I grew up with was helpful in some ways and not helpful in others. And I remember just getting to on-site and having you know, we had some stuff like the medicine wheels and sweat lodges, and and they were all optional, you know, and, like, jump circles and just things that were just different than what I'd experienced.
Speaker 4:But, also, I I was coming from a space that felt rather spiritually paranoid and worried about things not being good or bad or the devil or something. You know? And just kind of my overall feeling is that these spaces were safe and that they were, you know, optional, and it was it was a good way to step in. And so it gave me kind of a window because, you know, spirituality is a very big part of my life. And so because that's that drive within me is very real, and I didn't really have a great way of expressing it or developing it at that chapter in my life because of where I was coming from.
Speaker 4:And so to have something else offered to me was very helpful.
Speaker 1:I love that. That's an element that I think kinda comes up in the background a lot with people of having the freedom and the space to explore what spirituality means to you. And when so much of our spiritual imprint can be associated with our trauma, it's hard to dive into that space. And so I'm glad that you found some safety to do that. That's incredible.
Speaker 1:And you were there for how many days did you say? Fifty five?
Speaker 4:Yeah. Sounds like fifty five.
Speaker 1:Sounds like fifty five.
Speaker 2:She's like, I don't know.
Speaker 1:I was there. So, typically, people come for, like, thirty to sixty to ninety. Like, what Mhmm. How did you kinda get that additional time? What did you were you like, yes.
Speaker 1:Definitely. Let me stay, or was there some some resistance or fear around that?
Speaker 4:It was interesting. We were the group that I went through Milestones with was, like, I I've since heard from other people who have been to Milestones that we're a very unique group. I guess we were kind of known for being troublemakers to say the least. And, anyways, there's a lot of people who were just struggling with whether or not they wanted to get well, you know, which is interesting too. It's like, I don't wanna go too far into that, but there's people there who are very serious about doing the work for themselves, and there's some people who were not so sure yet.
Speaker 4:I think you can probably find that in any in any grouping. And so it was interesting kinda wavering between these these decisions of where do I wanna be. You know? Am I gonna because I really identified the people who didn't wanna be well. And I didn't really identify people who wanted to be well.
Speaker 4:I didn't really know how to do all that. And so my my journey was kind of my journey was kind of up and down, while I was there and what it looked like to engage. You know? And I had a lot of failed strategies for living at a time that had what I wanted to do often was disengage and go off and do my own thing, and that had only gotten me so far. You know?
Speaker 4:And so but a a a big key turning point for me is and I I think all of the activities, workshops, therapists, work, you know, various things that we were doing, I think all of these slowly chipped away. But, like, I the ten days before I I left Milestones, I admitted I was a alcoholic and addict for myself. And I I heard a quote recently, that was talking about how, like, when a stone mason's cracking a rock, they they, like, clock it, you know, 99 times, and it's the hundredth time that it actually breaks. And it's not because that hundredth time was a specific right angle with the right amount of pressure or any of those things. It just took those 99 ticks before it finally went through.
Speaker 4:You know? Mhmm. And so it's not like I I remember kinda feeling while I was there and and other places before on-site milestones feeling like I I've heard my dad call it a Rubik's cube before, but thinking like, oh, I just need to find this formula x. And once I figure out formula x, then I'm good. I can walk out of here, I have my graduate's degree, and I'm healed, and I'm golden.
Speaker 4:And so anything short of that just felt a little bit hard. So, anyways, ten days before I left, I noticed I admitted I was now alcoholic and addict. And what I tell people now too is that there was no fanfare. No one stood up and clapped and gave me a standing ovation. There was no red carpet.
Speaker 4:There was no external indicator that, like, I had just made a monumental shift in my life, and that that was a shift that I you know, that was one of the shifts that I needed. That was a very big one.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:And so it just I think everyone kinda nodded in because I think everyone was like, yeah. We know. Like, duh.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Obviously.
Speaker 4:We've been hearing your stories for fifty five days, so it's like, we're well aware. You know? But but I guess what stands out to me, though, in that is that sometimes the really big things don't, like, look like big things. It doesn't look like fireworks and explosions and sobbing, crying, and stuff like that. Some sometimes it is that, but sometimes it's very soft.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I love that. And thank you for sharing that because I I I was gonna ask you about it because I think earlier in the conversation when you said that and, like, the label coming back around a couple times to really orient yourself and give yourself that permission felt like a big thing. I'm glad you kind of brought back to it. And I love the idea that our big moments don't always look big because when you go and you do something as serious as like, I'm going to residential treatment, you want it to be these big momentous things, often just the small ones.
Speaker 1:So while I want to do a kind of a big fast forward, I think we can appreciate you guys all kind of sharing your highlights within the milestones, but I really do want to hear about the unique family system that you guys now exist within and the elements that you all kind of bring to that. So Avery, where are you right now? Tell give us a glimpse of your life.
Speaker 5:I live in LA now. I moved here a year ago, actually today.
Speaker 1:Happy anniversary. Oh, great.
Speaker 5:Yeah. Life's good. It's fun. And I'm exactly where I wanna be. And yeah, I really like my job, and I like my friends and the people I live with and the friends I've made and everything.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 2:What are you doing, Avery? What do you do?
Speaker 5:I work on music videos and commercials in the camera department and also the production department.
Speaker 1:Very cool.
Speaker 5:It's fun.
Speaker 1:Everyone's celebrating you big on the screen. I wish everyone's doing that. Like, hi. Yay.
Speaker 2:Live vicariously through her.
Speaker 1:I love it. And, Holden, where are you right now?
Speaker 4:I'm in Montreal. I'm here for a few months visiting my partner, but I live in Barcelona, which is quite nice. And I work remotely out of LA. And, I'm nine and something years sober now, which is great. It's a huge part of my life and a huge part of my community.
Speaker 4:Thank you.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 4:And, yeah, life's very good.
Speaker 1:Aaron, what about you?
Speaker 3:Yeah. I live with Leith, and we're thirty years in doing that.
Speaker 1:So that
Speaker 3:has been really good. I also wanna brag about Avery and Holden a little bit more and Leith. Good. So Avery is doing really cool, like enviable, cool work. You know on your photo reel when a year ago comes up?
Speaker 3:Well, a year ago, probably yesterday, one of our family's close friends hosted a party for Avery, like a send off party and did all this like Hollywood red carpet, you know, and people said nice things and gave her money to fuel her new adventure. And then fast forward, she's like really like on an NFL commercial just came out that she was part of. You know, these big, big, like, mainstream names of people that she's contributing to. So that's super cool to watch her. And she's living with really close friends that they grew up together.
Speaker 3:And some of these seasons of trauma, those friends were around for. Now they were all 14, 15, but they now live the five or six of them in Venice Beach And it's a super special moment in their life together. So much so that Leith and I are trying to figure out how we can move in next door and be part of it. Not really. And then Holden, he's nine and a half years sober, is the sky is the limit now.
Speaker 3:When we were at On-site visiting him for the family weekend, walking around the campus, and he was not able to smoke cigarettes, it was like crawling out of his skin, trying to figure out if he wants to be here in life. He's an admirable leader in his community wherever he is. And it's deeply rooted in his spiritual life, his sobriety, and who he has operationalized at very practical levels how to live forward a life he would want to live and be part of. So it's really fun to watch. So Avery and Holden are both mentors, Saleth and I, in cool and particular ways.
Speaker 3:And then Leith is five years in on building a coaching practice, and went from folding clothes at a yoga store on Christmas Eve and doing admittance to people coming in to the emergent care clinic, talking about their extracurricular activities that led to their need for medication. To now, she's really, really, really living what she's made for and helping other people live forward in powerful ways. So Leith and I, thirty years in, in my office right now. She's in hers just for the sake of the recording. But yeah, we have a rich life together.
Speaker 3:And I work in the corporate space and work with executive teams. And at the end of the day, it's on-site at work. I don't tell them that because they wouldn't know
Speaker 1:what it means.
Speaker 3:But I sometimes dream about making masking tape houses and drawing stories with crayons with them. I take it pretty far, but I haven't yet done the masking tape houses. So maybe that's up next.
Speaker 1:Pretty soon. I love it. That is a great celebratory way to brag on each other because I love this. And I think even just being in your guys' company and the way that you talk about each other and hold space for each other, it is beautiful to witness. And I think there is a really, really as an example for people who are kind of in the trenches in the early days of this.
Speaker 1:And so if you are listening to their story and any piece of it feels like, shit, that is my life. You're reading my mail. I really hope that you can kind of be an example of this is what it looks like when you put in the work, when you do the work, when you show up for each other, when it's messy, when you strive for repair. And, yeah, it's not perfect. It's not like, I mean, I love how you were really, really honest to say it doesn't look perfect.
Speaker 1:It doesn't get better. It gets harder before it gets better a lot of times. Yeah. So, Leith, is there anything that you'd wanna add to that before I kinda round out and ask my last question for you guys?
Speaker 2:I think I would just add that, part of my hope in saying yes to doing this podcast was that we could offer immeasurable amounts of hope to other individuals going through this and also other families. And mostly from the standpoint of like where we were in 2014 when this journey began with On-site to where we are today relationally, individually, from a health emotional wellness standpoint is so drastically different. And I personally could not have dreamed that we would have the relationships with each other the way that we do, that we would each be on our own journey of wellness. And I mean, feel like self care is kind of overused sometimes, but it's true. All four of us are very mindful about how we live.
Speaker 2:We are intentional about how we live on our own. We're intentional about how we live in relationship with one another. And for the most part, we're each other's favorite people still. They're definitely our favorite people. And I think we're mostly their favorite people.
Speaker 2:And they're our favorite people to travel with and play with and talk to and hang out with. And that, I don't think that's what I thought the story could possibly look like back in the day. And thank God for both Holden and Avery for all of their grace. Guys, thank you. I've told you this before.
Speaker 2:Tell you again, just thank you for all your grace. As we try to figure this out and get to a place that we actually just have straight up honest conversations. Avery just came to Avery, would you be okay if I share about Doctor. Dale? Avery did some trauma therapy with our therapist a couple of weeks ago.
Speaker 2:She was feeling kind of wonky and she's like, Oh, guess I get to forgive you guys for abandoning me when Hadley died. Like, Right, we did. We're so sorry. But of course, you know, a sister dies, we disappear in our grief and where's Avery? You know?
Speaker 2:So, but we can have those conversations and love and grace and forgiveness for each other. And we can we each, I feel like do a really good job of owning our shit so that we can cohesively stay in relationship really well. And Avery keeps us grounded with, Guys, this is too professional. You guys have two boundary. This is too that.
Speaker 2:You know, we're like, Oh yeah, we are all kind of like that. So she keeps us grounded in that way. But that's what I would add.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. Well, I have one question if you guys would humor me on it. What is one or two things? What do you wish you could tell the version of yourself ten years ago about where it is now and what your guys' lives look like now. What do you wish they knew?
Speaker 2:I think I would tell myself it's one of my, stickers, like my You Matter sticker. I have a sticker that says your sun will come up again. Like the sunshine, it will come up. I don't know how long it might take, but it will come up because those days I did not, I didn't know if it would or could or yeah. So I think that's something that I would tell myself, like, hang in there.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 5:Mine's the same. I was thinking the same thing.
Speaker 1:What about you, Aaron Holden?
Speaker 3:I think for me, it's hard doesn't last forever. Something
Speaker 4:along the lines of, like, you're doing great even if it doesn't feel like it, and this is as bad as it gets, and this too shall pass.
Speaker 1:That's really good.
Speaker 3:They sound like they're the same theme repeated 44 ways.
Speaker 1:You can do it. This is hard. It gets better. It's not gonna be like this forever. So Yeah.
Speaker 3:Still true today.
Speaker 2:And I would add along the lines of just like, and like a lot of grace for each of ourselves and for listeners for yourself in this process, just taking the next, the next right step. You know, I don't know what it's going look like. I don't know if you need to go to on-site five different times. Maybe not, but, but what's the next right thing. And you're, you're, you're, you're doing a good job.
Speaker 2:Like, you know, I just think I have no for some of what we've shared is just feeling hard on ourselves in in that dark space. And it's like, if we could start by having grace for ourselves in that space. Anyway, that's maybe another podcast interview.
Speaker 4:Yeah. I'd say that I like, I maybe mentioned something about this earlier, but, like, I'd oh, like, I started to kind of get on to myself for not remembering what was happening to other people back during this time, you know, and then was able to, like, release that pretty quick because it was like, oh, they're a little self centered. Every time I think about this chapter, all I do is talk about what's going on with me, etcetera, etcetera. And it's just kind of a reminder of, like, oh, no. Like, I was doing the best I could with what I had.
Speaker 4:You know? And that's, like, still true now. It was true then. And, like, I was I was shady in a lot of ways. I had a lot of things that needed work, lot of a lot of edges that needed cleaning up.
Speaker 4:And I don't have to beat myself up for it because I really, really, in my heart of hearts was doing the best I could with tools I had at the time.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. I love that grace for yourself. And I was reminded when you shared kind of what Avery came to you and said, okay. Now I need to forgive you for this. Like, you can have grace for yourself and also hold space to say it matters.
Speaker 1:It matters that the best that I was doing still hurt you. Like, I was swallowed up in grief, and it hurt you, and I'm sorry. And I love just getting to see that even in real time right here while you guys are talking about it. Well, y'all, this was so good. Happy birthday, Leith.
Speaker 1:Is it what you wanted and more? Is there anything else that we need to talk about?
Speaker 2:Hold on. Don't start. We'll be here another two hours. I
Speaker 5:love Awesome.
Speaker 2:Lovely. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Thanks, Avery. Thanks, Holden. Thanks, Aaron, thanks, Rachel.
Speaker 2:This was good y'all.
Speaker 3:Thank you. Thank you. Love you, guys.