The Modern Hotelier #158: What Hotels Can Learn From Chick-fil-A Culture | with Nicholas Lawrence
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Steve Carran: Welcome to another episode of The Modern Hotelier. Today we are joined by Nick Lawrence, the Executive Director of People and Culture from a local franchise from Indianapolis, Indiana at Chick-fil-A. David, what were some of your favorite takeaways from this conversation?
David M.: I thought it was cool because we got to see how the Chick-fil-A corporate mentality and culture goes down into the local franchises and I. Just when you talk about their whole belief in My pleasure. Versus saying Thank you. and of course, you know, everybody loves Chick-fil-A, so it was it.
Steve Carran: It was great to see, like he, he lives with a Chick-fil-A brand like he, it's, it's absolutely incredible and talking about how they build the culture and how it comes from ownership down. Kinda like what you said and how, you know, owner, the franchise owners, it's boots on the ground and they're scrubbing the toilets.
They're helping the employees right there. So it's a really, uh, lead by leadership example. So, really impressed by the conversation and we hope you all enjoy it. 
David M.: Enjoy it.

David M.: Welcome to the Modern Hotelier Hospitality's Most Engaged podcast. I'm David Millili.
Steve Carran: I'm Steve Carran.
Jon Bumhoffer: And I'm Jon Bumhoffer. 
David M.: Steve, who do we have on the program today?
Steve Carran: Yeah, David. Today we have on Nick Lawrence. Nick is an experienced HR leader. He specializes in people and culture strategies at Chick-fil-A and is also the founder of Lawrence Leadership, a coaching and consulting firm dedicated to leadership development. Culture transformation and delivering exceptional customer experiences.
With over 16 years of leadership experience, Nick is passionate about developing talent, strengthening workplace culture, and equipping leaders to make a lasting impact, a dynamic speaker and leadership coach, he delivers practical, actionable insight, grounded in the belief that my pleasure isn't just a catchphrase, it's a moral obligation.
Welcome to the show, Nick.
Nick Lawrence: Thank you. Wow. Thanks so much. And you know, when you take 16 years down into one minute, it sounds pretty good actually. So, hey, how about that?
David M.: All right, so Nick, we're gonna go through a couple different areas. We're gonna go through a quick lightning round. We're gonna get to know you a little bit better, and then we're gonna dive into industry topics. Sound good?
Nick Lawrence: Yeah, perfect. Looking forward to it.
David M.: Okay. So what is something that you wish you were better at?
Nick Lawrence: I think being handy around the house, my dad was always real handy and I, I, I tried to take notes, but it's, um, you know, just, it's such a lost art, I think.
David M.: I'm right there with you. What's the most used app on your phone?
Nick Lawrence: probably the text messages, right? Uh, or YouTube.
David M.: All right, so what's a luxury you can't live without?
Nick Lawrence: Hmm. Probably a great pair of polarized sunglasses.
David M.: Hmm. Okay. If you could trade places with somebody for a day, who would it be?
Nick Lawrence: Ooh. well, several years ago it would've been Jimmy Buffett. Unfortunately, he's, uh, he's since passed. But, uh, you know, maybe Kenny Chesney living that island life.
David M.: Got it. What's the best piece of advice you've received?
Nick Lawrence: I had an old boss that said we're responsible for our own development, and I didn't really know what he meant at the time, but I, I do now. And, and essentially what he was saying was he was gonna help me, but he could, he couldn't do it all for me. And, uh, that has just always stuck with me.
David M.: That's good advice. What's your favorite city and why?
Nick Lawrence: probably my home city right here in Indianapolis. That's, that's where the heart is. And, we love, uh, our kind of vacation sweet spot is in St. Pete Beach, Florida, so we, we've got an affinity for that area too.
David M.: Alright, and this is the last one. It's very personal to me. Why is it that I always crave Chick-fil-A on Sunday when you're closed? Why is that the case? I.
Nick Lawrence: It's the old, uh, we, we want what we can't have. Right. And, uh, you know, outside of the weekend, of course Monday seems to be a very, uh, busy day. So, um, yeah, it, it is one of, one of life's mysteries, but, uh.
David M.: Yeah.
Steve Carran: Well, that was great Nick. Thanks so much. So now we're gonna learn a little bit more about your background and what makes you tick. So like you said. You grew up in Indiana, is that correct?
Nick Lawrence: Yes, that is correct.
Steve Carran: So I'm from the Midwest, our producer John, also a Midwest boy. How did growing up in Indiana, in the Midwest really shape you into who you are today? 
Nick Lawrence: I think the Midwest has that, reputation of Midwest hospitality and, you know, until you start traveling other places, you, you don't totally know what that means. and then as much as I'm not necessarily a fan of the winter, I, I don't handle the cold very well. I do think it does something to our, our.
Our personality and, and, create some, some toughness and some rigidness and makes us appreciate, some of those finer seasons in life. Not only the weather of course, but, but I think in our own ups and downs and trials. So, obviously it's shaped some sports that I love in my life.
But, Really like it. I'd love to travel other places, but I think, home is really where those folks around you are. You know, and if you have that dialed in, you know, I think you can live about anywhere, further south is kind of my, my, uh, goal. But, but yeah, Indiana's a great state.
A lot of hidden gyms. Uh, of course we've got the Pacers and the Fever, down here in Indianapolis. So, I'm very thankful for my upbringing in Indiana. 
Steve Carran: if it makes you feeling better, it's mid-April and we got snow today. So, um, I'm in Colorado, so you know, I. I didn't learn my lesson from the Midwest.
Nick Lawrence: yeah.
David M.: That's funny. So you got your degree in business management and marketing from Purdue Fort Worth. What kind of led you to the school and to those degrees?
Nick Lawrence: Yeah, from Purdue Fort Wayne. So that's where I'm from or from originally. So, at the time when I went there, it was a hybrid of Indiana University and Purdue University and, the Indiana portion, you know, they, they've, Concentrated in other cities. So now it's just Purdue Fort Wayne. But, but my degree was, was, from Indiana University and I attended their Fort Wayne, Fort Wayne Branch.
But, you know, it was close to home. And if I'm being honest, I didn't really know what I wanted to do. And, I knew at the time thank goodness that, you know, going off to a, a big school without really, you know, a set plan in mind, I just knew financially that probably wasn't the right thing for me to do to.
Kind of spend all that money without, without kind of really being dialed in. So I stayed in Fort Wayne and, and I'm glad I did. It was a, a wonderful experience and I was able to work, while getting my degree and, and stay close to family. So, I'm very thankful looking back that that was the decision I made.
Steve Carran: That's great. So, so. In Indianapolis, you know? Are you a big Indie 500 fan? You mentioned the fever. I'm assuming you're a big Kaitlyn Clark fan already. So, what do you follow being a Indiana sports fan? 
Nick Lawrence: And my, my parents grew up in Ohio, so I'm, I'm a Buckeye at heart, but you think Ohio State, Indiana. Macy's Target, Chick-fil-A. So I've embraced red in a big way. Um, but yeah, big, big cold span. And we actually have, um, our franchise group. I've worked for a local owner operator. We have a location inside of Cambridge Field House.
So that has been really exciting, uh, especially as the fever have really come alive with Kaitlyn Clarke, uh, over the last year or so. Uh, so definitely a Pacers and and Fever fan. Colts for sure. but it's just, you know, good Big 10, football and basketball. Uh, love to support, support those. And as you mentioned, the Indy 500, we are right around the corner from, from, uh, what they call the biggest spectacle, the greatest spectacle in racing.
So they say it's the largest single day sporting event by attendance in the world. And, um, I've been several times. but it's also just fun to, to watch on tv or if you're. If you're a old school, traditionalist, you listen to it on the radio and, uh, that's a lot of fun. periodically they black out the, the, the race, the live race here in, Indianapolis.
So you have to go in person or listen on the radio. So it's kind of a, a wonderful pastime to, to listen to it that way. so yeah, the city is, is definitely gearing up for that. all of May has really focused on the 500 here in Indianapolis.
Steve Carran: That's awesome. That's awesome. So now we're gonna get into your background a little bit, your career, how you got to where you are today. So after you graduated, you went to Macy's, then Target, and then you wound up back in Macy's and you weren't always on the HR side. Can you tell about more about those retail days and how you got into hr?
Nick Lawrence: Absolutely. So when I started my freshman year at, uh, IU in Fort Wayne, I started working at Macy's. The mall was. A few miles down the road and I worked in, the men's department primarily selling shirts and ties and, you know, I've always been fairly outgoing, but that I was able to refine it and, and, you know, they taught me some, some salesmanship type of, uh, mentality there.
I did that for two years. I really liked it. And one day they asked me to work in their administrative office and I actually told them no, or I, I turned it down at first. And they said, well, why, why don't you wanna do this? I said, well, I like working with our customers on the sales floor and, and meeting my sales goal and having those interactions.
And they said, well, now you'll get to work with our internal customer, our team. So I thought, you know, that's probably the next step, you know, why not? So I took it and in that role I got to work very closely with the HR manager and that's where my, my passion for people and HR really, really was sparked.
'cause I, I got to see the impact the HR leader had on the. On the business side, on the people side, and, that's what really triggered that my whole, uh, career. But, but it was kind of a long journey to get there. After graduation, I, I left Macy's. It was a tough decision and went to work for Target, a really great company and learned a lot.
at Target. led some sales positions there, even logistics. So that was a whole new world for me. Uh, trailer door to sales floor, that was kind of the motto of how does the product get where it needs to go. but I always stayed in touch with mentors from Macy's, and after enough phone calls, they said, why, why don't you come back?
And I landed at one of their flagship stores in Indianapolis. And, now all those years later, running the men's department. So I went from, you know, being a, a frontline salesperson to, to running the men's department at, uh, one of their flagship stores in Indianapolis. I did that for two years, and then one day my boss called me in his office and he said, Hey, we had a leader leave and I want you to run the beauty department.
And I thought he was kidding. Uh, this, this, um. Fairly serious man. Uh, originally from Texas. A great guy, great leader. And I said, what? Why do you call me in here? What, what's going on? What's, what's this all about? He said, I'm being serious. I want you to run our beauty department. And I said, well, I don't know anything about lipstick.
The only thing I know about beauty is I shared a bathroom with my sister growing up, you know. And you know, what he said was, this is not about the lipstick, it's about the people. And, you know, that's a commission sales department, a lot of people in a small area. So if you don't manage it properly, it, it, it can kind of become a unhealthy environment, you know, uh, unhealthy competition.
And we did an internal, employee engagement survey. And over the last two years when I led the men men's department, I was. One of the highest rated managers in terms of engagement. So they thought, let's take that and, and move it into the beauty department. So, that was a really, uh, big, big learning curve.
But I'm very thankful for my time there. I had a very large team and then a very large team of external business partners that they didn't work for Macy's, they didn't report to me. But we were one of their largest accounts, and so they wanted my time and attention and their product front and center and their salespeople in the right spot.
Somehow they all had the number one selling mascara. I still haven't figured that out. and that's where I learned to lead leaders, you know, who led other leaders and, and that's. One of the most toughest transitions, I think, for any leader, at least in my career. And, and I learned it right there at the Macy's Beauty Department.
 and so I did that for three years and then, um, found my way to Chick-fil-A. 
David M.: Well, that is, excuse me, the next question. So from lipstick to Chick-fil-A, how did you. End up at Chick-fil-A. You've worked your way up to the executive director of people, people, and culture. Like how, how did that, how did that path happen? What kind of you From lipstick to.
Nick Lawrence: I always appreciated, I, I ate at the mo food court more than I probably should have when I worked, uh, all those years in retail. And I just so much appreciated the, the folksy nature, how polished, polite, and professional the team at Chick-fil-A was. And we met every day at Macy's in Target about three o'clock for an afternoon touch base or huddle.
And the store manager, would always say. We talk about three things, growing sales over last year, beating ly customer service and finding great people to work for us. And you know, over all those years, my leaders would say something like, who's been out there recruiting? Has anyone found anyone yet?
Somebody give me a name from our competitors. Where are all the good people at? And for 11 years in a row, I said, they're at Chick-fil-A. That's where they are. And one day I thought. You know, I should just go work for Chick-fil-A You know, during Covid I was, uh, furloughed, uh, from Macy's. So, and I didn't know if I would be called back to work. I'm, I'm sitting around my neighborhood pool and I got an email for a free chicken sandwich from Chick-fil-A. Hey, that's a good price, right? So there's two restaurants that were pretty close to, to my house, which are, are now two that are in our franchise group that I support.
And one was a little closer. I traditionally went to that one, but for whatever reason, I thought I'm, I'm gonna go to this other restaurant today. And when I got there, the line was out of control. I, I'd never seen anything like it. I was used to the mall food court. It was during the pandemic, so the, the dining room was, was closed, so everyone had to use the drive through. And I thought, you know, I'm not gonna get in this crazy line. Let me get gas first and see what happens. And when I was done getting gas, the line had moved forward. There was plenty of space. And right before I went to get in the line, I saw this, beautiful black vehicle. They probably just came from the car wash next door.
So I, I waved, waved the, the car in, and right when they pulled in front of me, the side of the car said, Chick-fil-A award winner. And I knew from working at the mall, that that was an award that operators were eligible for based on, sales goals. And it's called the symbol of success. Something true at Kathy, our founder, started, many, many years ago.
And I thought to myself, you know, if I get side by side with this gentleman, I'm just gonna yell out my window. It was a beautiful day like today. Hey, do you need any leaders to work for you? And unfortunately, we never got side by side, but I, I got my food first. So I, I parked at the end of the, out of the way by the dumpster, and I walked back through the line, which I now know is a big sin, right?
To hold up the production. And I said, sir, are you the owner operator? He said, yes, I am. And I said, well, are you looking to hire any leaders? And we pulled around out of the way to the front of the store. I said, well, HR is really, you know what I'm looking to get into. Do you do that in the restaurant or maybe a third party handles it?
He said, oh, no, we do it in the restaurant. I said, well, do, do you happen to have an opening? And they had went 18 months without a HR leader. And three weeks later I started working for a local franchise owner operator. So that's kind of my personality to just go for it. What's the worst that could happen?
He doesn't hear me or he says no. but the best thing that could have happened actually did it changed my life and better than I could have even anticipated. And, um, that was five years ago, coming up on five years ago and, and just a few months. So, so that's how I ended up at, at Chick-fil-A.
David M.: That's great.
Steve Carran: That's incredible. So as the executive director of people and culture, what's your main focus, overall and for day to day?
Nick Lawrence: Yeah, and I, I think it's, um, you know, I always wanna be real clear on, on my particular role, Chick-fil-A's a very big company. So we have a wonderful corporate support center down in Atlanta, Georgia, but I, I serve, In the field organization for a local, franchise group, one of the largest franchise groups in the country.
But, you know, my focus is, our founder, Truitt Kathy, set up this incredible legacy, which I, I think, we're lucky to be torch bearers of that all these years later. so that responsibility weighs very heavily and. the HR business partners on my team, they're responsible for, they're the gatekeepers for every single person we hire in our franchise group, and every single person that's gonna end up serving our customers.
And that's a major responsibility. so I wanna make sure we're, we're hiring the right. type of people to serve our, our customers, our guests. And then the other thing I'm really focused on is how do we equip our leaders to have difficult conversations, to navigate shades of gray, to be healthier in, in the head, in the heart, right?
Emotional intelligence. those are the kind of things that, that keep me up at night. And I, I wanna, I just wanna be a good steward of, of, you know, those leaders who came before me at Chick-fil-A. And, I think we have a really good thing going and I. I don't wanna be responsible for, for not, not being a part of that.
So those are a few things that are, are top of mind for me.
Steve Carran: That's great.
David M.: That's great. And you recently launched Lawrence Leadership. Can you tell us more about that?
Nick Lawrence: Yeah. You know, This is how I knew I was getting older. The, the amount of people that reached out to me to say, Hey, would you have time to talk? I, I, I could use some advice, or would, would you be a consultant on this project? I thought this never happened five or six years ago. and I thought, I'm, I must be getting older.
And, um, a mentor of mine says that. Wisdom is the thing we gained right after we needed it, right? Because we probably learned a hard lesson, to acquire that wisdom. So, you know, after enough requests, I thought I need to formalize this probably. so out of that was born Lawrence leadership.
And, you know, I don't do a lot of advertising for it, although, you know, we're talking about it now. But, I want my sole focus to be. You know, my day job at Chick-fil-A and, and this is, um, you know, something on the side for maybe an occasional, paid speaking gig or, folks looking for one-on-one mentorship.
a lot of people ask, are you looking to eventually do that full-time? And that's not really my goal. you know, I really, really enjoy the work I get to do at Chick-fil-A, but, it has been, been a lot of fun to, You know, two years ago, if you would've asked me, I would've, it wasn't even on my radar.
So organically, very slowly, it just evolved into, what it is today. 
Steve Carran: Very cool. So now we're gonna move into some industry thoughts. one thing that I think I notice, and anybody who walks in a Chick-fil-A notices is the culture. instead of saying, you know, thank you, they say, you say, my pleasure. And for the past 10 years, you've been named number one in customer service.
Can you talk about more, more about what goes into building a culture like that at Chick-fil-A? 
Nick Lawrence: And, you know, I admired that for 11 years, you know, on, on the outside. And it took me several years internally to try to answer that question that I wanted to know for a decade. And that many, many people asked, how does Chick-fil-A do this? And, one of the, the big secrets, which is probably not really a secret, a lot of our success starts with our owner operators and this local franchise, mentality.
And most Chick-fil-A owner operators, they have one restaurant. And you know, for our competitors, they might have 50 or 500. And it, it's hard to really, you know. Keep, keep a good, hand on things, right? When, when you have that many, and it says right on the, the Chick-fil-A corporate website that this is not meant to be, part of a portfolio of brands or an investment or something that you do from the sidelines.
This is, I think owner operator is such a good word, right? And they, they're in there working side by side with the frontline team. and all of our leaders do that. So I think when, you know, someone from HR or marketing or finance is willing to scoop, fries, clean the bathroom, hand out, milkshakes, we hope that that mentality really models and sets the way for our team and.
Initially when I started answering this question, I thought, you know, we have really good training and we have a great hospitality model, which is true, but I think a lot of people have that. and what, what I eventually kept coming back to is, you know, how does Chick-fil-A do this is is a good question, but I think the true answer is, why, why are we even doing this?
And, you know, for, for a lot of folks at Chick-fil-A, it, we have this mentality of that we're. What we're doing serves a higher purpose, a higher mission, a higher calling. and I, I think Simon Sinek talks about the golden circle. That middle part is the why. And he, he thinks, which I would agree, a lot of companies don't, they don't ever get around to thinking about their why, or if they do, it's, it's on the wall, you know, it's their, their core values maybe, or the history of the company, but they, it doesn't really get lived out every day.
And I've been able to boil that down to one sentence, which, Is this for, for us, my pleasure isn't just our catchphrase, that's our moral obligation. So we're looking for people who, who don't say, oh, I have to provide remarkable customer service. They, they say, I get to, you know, so I think that's a little bit a part of it. 
David M.: I just gotta make a comment before I ask the next question. The fact that you just used the word hospitality in kind of like the philosophy and the way you guys approach things is pretty amazing. 'cause sometimes even people in the hotel business, forget that word. So just kind of hats off to you for that.
And so what hiring or training strategies. Have evolved recently that aligned with the changing customer expectations. Like what have, what have you guys had to do to try to, you know, you talked about, you know, covid and No in room dining. What have you guys had to do to evolve and kind of maybe enhance your training?
Nick Lawrence: Sure. I think one thing that we learned during the pandemic was that, You have to get that to the applicant very quickly and, and, and you need to engage with them and it needs to be a real person. And that's really hard when you, you have huge applicant flow, like I'm sure a lot of companies do. but we just found that getting to the applicant very quickly is important.
but more than that, we we're very clear about what the job is and what it isn't. And And sometimes we try to talk people outta the job. You know, it's very demanding. You'll probably be outside sometimes, which it's cold in the winter in Indiana, and it's hot in the summer. You're gonna go home smelling like peanut oil.
you know, you might be able to get a little bit more money and work, work not as hard somewhere else. Like, why would you wanna work here? And what we're looking for is someone says, I want this job, not, I want a job. and we can tell pretty quickly when, people start, if they're gonna fit into the, culture or not.
And they can too, actually. You know, they look around and go, oh, okay, that this might not be for me. And, and that happens sometimes. I, I don't think there's a magic formula for hiring the right people. I, think there's ways to really. Get it calibrated and be good at it, but it's just a fact of life that we're gonna swing and miss, or there's gonna be misalignment on, on both sides.
And, you just handle that and move on.
Steve Carran: That's great. So one thing that, I guess it didn't surprise me, but it stuck out to me. So Chick-fil-A has the highest sales per unit for us fast food restaurants, and it doubles the number two restaurant all while being closed on Sundays. What is the. I guess is, is there a secret Chick-fil-A sauce, that helps you guys be so successful? 
Nick Lawrence: It's, it's pretty remarkable data. Right? And, you know, I do, I, I just don't know any other way to, to boil that down or to explain that than, Is that I think we have our why really calibrated, you know, most of us do. And, you know, that we, we report to a higher authority that's greater than our supervisor.
And, you know, I, I speak about that very generally, but, but really all that requires an element of faith, right? And, and we all have faith in something and I think the fact that. That creates a really intense level of accountability that, you know, if I'm gonna, do something that's not ethical to get ahead, my supervisor may or may not find out right, but this, this higher power, right, this greater authority, you know, that, that, a lot of us have, you know, that. That's kind of all knowing, right? You know, in, in, in our mind. So I do think that creates this, this, deeper level of, of this, you know, we wanna serve and, and we feel like we're changing the world by selling a chicken sandwich. and, uh, when, when a lot of your peers have that same, you know, heart and mentality, uh, it really does kind of lead to what you see when you go through the drive through.
haven't found any other way to explain it. I used to kind of shy away or avoid that subject altogether, but I do think that is part of the success. And until I discover other, other ways, you know, it, it can't, it's gotta be more than just my pleasure. Right. my pleasure's like a, a way of life, a mentality.
and there's no doubt the food is great, right? Uh, but it, it's gotta be, you know, a lot of people serve good, good food and we're humbled and honored by it. So that's my explanation there. There could be better ones out there, but, admiring it for a decade and, and, and observing it for five years internally.
I, I just dunno how to explain it any other way.
David M.: So we've touched on it. Couple times our audience is mostly hoteliers, so the belief is that my pleasure isn't just the catchphrase that you've said it's a moral obligation. How can you maybe just elaborate a little bit more on that, on how that can help people who are taking that viewpoint, how that can help people in hospitality? 
Nick Lawrence: Thank you for asking that. I, so I, I share that message with leaders in the restaurant when, when I'm, um, and I'm in a restaurant every day, uh, and. A leader came up to me and said, Hey, I gotta tell you something. The other day, a customer, a guest spilled their drink, right? Which happens, right? And she said, I rushed up the, to them to help them clean it up.
And the guest was kind of mortified or embarrassed. And this, the guest said, I'll get it. I'll get it. Where are the paper towels? And the team members, the leaders said, no, I can get it. I can get it. And you know, they kind of went back and forth a little bit, right? Which is very, um, wonderful that our guests would wanna clean up their own mess.
Uh. She said, do you know what I said to them? I said, what? What did he say? She said, eventually, I said, ma'am, not only is this in my job description to clean this up, but it's my moral obligation. Right? So, it kind of goes back to that I. That story, but we actually, it's no secret. It's in Truist book. We got My pleasure from the Ritz Carlton.
So, uh, it all started in, the hotel space and, uh, I really admire some of their, or a lot of their, their core values or service values. And one of them says, I am always responsive to the expressed and unexpressed wishes and needs of our guests. That's really powerful. And no wonder they're known for.
Legendary, remarkable customer service, that kind of mentality. You know, I think they say, ladies and gentlemen, serving, ladies and gentlemen. like, for us, our, one of our fundamentals for customer service is this idea of a warm greeting. Making eye contact, smiling, speaking in a warm and enthusiastic tone.
So I was thinking about, I love the idea of, of going to a hotel. I think there's something very, you know, I don't wanna over romanticize it, but, you know, it means you're traveling or on business. And to me there's always this mystery of what room will I get and what will the view be? And there's something about, you know.
The room is so minimalistic because none of your junk's in there yet, you know, and the, the bed is tucked in so perfectly. so I do think there's something really special about getting to stay in a hotel for a variety of reasons. but the first. Friction point, uh, a person staying at a hotel is likely to encounter is, is at the front desk, right?
And, you know, maybe there were supposed to be two people, but someone called off or someone got moved to a different area and, you know, you can never predict probably the, the check-in flow. So, you know, I just think about when there's five or six people ready to check in and that person's stressed and they're thinking about their coworker who was supposed to be there and.
I think all they need to do at first is look up and smile and say, we're gonna be right with you. We're so excited to serve you. You know, and I think in the, in the stress that just gets lost sometimes. and this is true of any industry, not just restaurants or hotels, but, but I think when you layer in those things all throughout the process, it, it just makes for a different, environment and it enhances the stay, you know?
So, yeah, that's one small way I think, and, and that can be applied to a lot of other areas in, in the hotel is my assumption.
Steve Carran: I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more. And we're all kind of in that, well, we're not kind of, we all are in the hospitality space, whether that's hotels, restaurants, you know, we're all there to serve other people. Right. What is one trend that you see maybe on the restaurant side or even the hotel side that maybe is an upcoming trend that hasn't hit yet?
Or maybe you've seen it on the restaurant side where you think it's gonna make more of an impact on the hotel side as well?
Nick Lawrence: Hmm, that's a good question. You know, I think as technology and AI evolves, you know, you know, in the restaurant space there's certain restaurants where you, you walk in and you place your order, on a screen or an iPad and, you know, that type of thing. You know, I was in, uh, Las Vegas recently and I saw they had the traditional check-in model, but then there was also a.
You can check in on the iPad. They had an old basket full of room keys and, although that was likely more efficient, I'd still kind of enjoy the old school, you know? and I get not everyone has that outgoing, you know, temperament, uh, like I might, so, but you know, I wanna ask them what, what's the hidden gem around here?
Where should I get coffee? you know, maybe if I'm smile big enough, I get. A better room or a better, you know, a better view. And that's not gonna happen on the iPad. I'm not saying, businesses shouldn't do that. I think it's a great option for a lot of people who are, are in a big hurry or have some kind of social anxiety.
But, I think going completely away from the human interaction, I hope that doesn't become, you know, a, a trend or, or stick. Um, so that, those are things I notice. Um, but I'm no better than anyone else at Predict in the future. I.
David M.: That's great. So you, you've given us. Great insight into Chick-fil-A and, and, and really kind of how the brand has evolved and its kind of core culture. What advice would you give to a smaller brand that was starting out that you think would be core to them having success? 
Nick Lawrence: I would say really take your time in, hiring the right people, whoever your general manager type of leader is, or however that structure plays out in your world. That is one of the most critical roles that you can have. and then whatever you can do to invest in the emotional intelligence or the head and the heart of your people is a dramatic game changer.
And I would say one mentality that we, we really work on with our franchise group is this idea of ownership. And there's a great definition in the, in the book QBQ, the question behind the question, which says, it's, it's a commitment of the head, heart, and hands to fix the problem and never again, affix the blame.
And, and that starts by asking great questions like, what could I have done differently? How could I have, versus what I used to ask as when I was a younger leader who dropped the ball? When is marketing going to, why didn't the closing team. That type of stuff. And accountability is definitely important, but if you start with the those what and how questions, I've got kind of a funny example.
If, uh, if we've got a moment for it, We were looking for a, a vacation spot for, for spring break recently, and we always end up back at the same place, which is where we ended up staying. but I was looking at a little bit different city and, and I found a, a resort that I thought could, could be, good for the family and decent price.
And you know, what do I do? Of course, I go look at the, the reviews. I saw a two star review from, uh, Dennis, and you know, basically he said that check-in took forever. It was delayed. The hotel really wasn't in a spot to, to kind of handle all of these guests. and there was a response from the, the resort owner.
And, um, I thought, I always like when I see those, I said, well, let's see what this says. And, and basically I'm paraphrasing, but the hotel owner said, you know, thanks for sharing. Sharing this feedback, which is a good start. And then they said, you know, we had a big wedding party and that delayed the whole process and we're still recovering from the hurricane and on and on and on.
And my joke is, I say, what is Dennis supposed to do with that? Turn into Owen Wilson. Like, oh wow, you had a wedding cheese. I bet the bride was beautiful. Wow. Was there a band? You know, I'm working on the impression,
David M.: Yeah.
Nick Lawrence: but. We, we have a saying, uh, that our customers don't work in our business. And the reality is Dennis doesn't care about that wedding, and Dennis isn't heartless, but he probably doesn't care about the hurricane recovery efforts.
You know, he, he's got his own stresses in his life. He doesn't work at the hotel. In fact, that's why he's on vacation. You know, he is trying to get away from that. So, you know, what, what should the, the hotel owner have done, in my opinion? They should have said something to the effect of, Dennis, thank you so much for sharing this feedback.
It appears in this case we did not live up to our high expectation of delivering a remarkable life changing vacation. Would you please call or email this number? And we'd love to hear more and make it right, but it, it's just so easy. And, and sometimes we do this at at Chick-fil-A. You know, you know, a customer says, Hey, why is it taking so long?
Well, we had call offs and we have supplier issues and we have equipment down. The reality is our customers don't care about any of that. We do, we should. But if our customers wanted problems with their, with their lunch, they would've packed and stayed in the office. You know? So I, I, I think to answer your question, the long way around it, it's this idea of taking ownership, you know, and, and our customers, our guests, they don't work in our business.
And, that's a game changer.
Steve Carran: It's incredible. Incredible. Definitely a lot of things from this conversation that hotels. Anybody in hospitality can really take back to their own world, whether it's, you know, a restaurant, hotel, or anywhere in hospitality. So, great conversation, Nick. Okay, so this is kind of one of my favorite parts of the conversation here.
This is when we actually turn the tables and we've been asking you questions this whole time, but now you get to ask David and I a question.
Nick Lawrence: Yeah. You know, I think about, how do you, when you look at p and l and, and you know, how does the hotel industry keep that same, you know, I think we saw in Covid basically, not all, but there was this, Mentality of like, we're not gonna clean your room today. You know, and, and we got spoiled.
You really get spoiled when you go to a hotel. It's like, you know, you throw it on the ground and it gets picked up. You know, it's like, it's, it's remarkable. That does not work at home, by the way. you know, so, so as you think about trying to maintain a competitive advantage and in the marketplace, you know, how do hotels keep this, there's a high bar of hospitality in, in the hotel space.
Like how do they. You know, manage that, right? That keeping the high bar of hospitality, protecting the p and l, especially as a consumer demand, and expectation seems to increase every year, right? And. 
Steve Carran: David, you I, I'll take this one first unless you want to. 
Yeah, I, I think what Chick-fil-A is doing is kind of hitting it on the head. It's really caring about the people that are there, because if you don't make them feel special, they're gonna go somewhere else. I. It costs a lot more to get a new customer than it does to have that return customer come back another time.
David and I and John just took a trip out to San Diego and we got to stay in some amazing hotels, and one of the hotels that blew me away was the Lafayette. We went down there and got coffee and there was. We, we just, we just had a conversation with this lady came up that, like my, my producer was coming down.
She's like, I'll get it Mark when he comes down. And really just treated us like human beings and we're there for anything that we needed. And it was absolutely incredible service. Not only just, you know, because we're there filming, but they just. Treated us like people and they would stop us and have conversations with us like, oh, what are you guys doing in town?
And it wasn't, it wasn't just one or two people, it was everybody. It was the culture that they established at the Lafayette that they showed that they truly cared about the guests and wanted to make sure that they had an incredible, incredible experience.
David M.: Yeah, I think you said it best for me. I mean, I'm a former general manager, so I ran hotels in New York City, lived on property. I always wanted my team to be an extension of me, whether that be the person checking someone in, answering the phone, taking a reservation, holding the door open. And when you said that, when you said, oh, the general manager, that's general manager for the, you know, uh, a location is the critical hire, to me that really resonated because to me that's what the industry needs, more people who are passionate about being in hospitality.
And it's kinda almost just like what you said, unfortunately. If you do, just look at it at the p and l and as a, as a business, it's probably not the right business for you. It's not a Walmart, it's not, you know, this is where people, like you said, they're on vacation. They're, this is an experience that could be on business.
They, they expect it to be treated a certain way. So, kinda like what Steve said, like for me, I always feel, you can tell by the staff that when you meet the gm, whether you're gonna like them or not like them. Like, you're gonna be like, wow, this is a cool guy. I gotta have a, a beer with him.
I gotta have a drink. Or him or, or her, you know, she, she could be great. 'cause you just feel kind of that, that warmth. So for me it's, I, I liked your point, so I'm stealing it, but the, I think the GM and the person who's running the property is most important.
Nick Lawrence: Yeah, definitely.
Steve Carran: That's great. That's great. So our producer, John, has been listening this whole time, so he's gonna ask you one more question before we get you outta here, Nick.
Jon Bumhoffer: So my question is a little bit more selfish in nature. My, you're live in Indiana, from Indiana. My wife is from Indiana. We visit there often, and you said you had some hidden gems and I'm curious to know what are the hidden gems people should check out while visiting Indiana?
Nick Lawrence: Yeah, yeah. You know, up north there's some great, parks, state parks, even Great Lakes. Uh. Not the Great Lakes from Michigan, but there's wonderful lakes up there in northern Indiana, especially in the summertime. you know, and, and here in central Indiana there, there's just some phenomenal coffee shops and.
Breweries. Um, when I was in Vegas, I met, uh, a guy just walking out of the hotel and he said, where are you from? And I said, Indiana, he said, Chicago. He said, Hey, yeah, have you tried this brewery? And I hadn't heard of it. I pull it up, amazing reviews. And so, I love that a guy from Chicago had to tell me about, you know, a hidden gym in my own city.
and there's some great, uh, kind of local, podcast folks who are, who are kind of highlighting all these different things. and many of the suburbs around Indianapolis consistently are on the, the top five places to live in the us. So, they don't factor in the weather evidently on those lists, but, you know, just great places to raise a family.
And, you know, this time of year with Indy 500 and they just revamped the museum on site. so a lot of rich, uh, heritage and history in the city.
David M.: Well, that does it for another episode of the Modern Hotelier, Nick. This is where you can plug away, let people know how they can find out more about Chick-fil-A, how they can find out more about Lawrence leadership. So the floor is yours.
Nick Lawrence: Well, thank you all so much for having me on. It really was my pleasure. I'm fairly active on LinkedIn. That's the best place, folks can find me. It's under Nicholas Lawrence, my, my formal name or when I'm in trouble. And, reach out to me. Would love, love to connect with, with, um, your listeners.
And if you're in Indianapolis, let me know. Uh, lu lunch is on me if, uh, if you're here any day, but Sunday,
David M.: Well, yeah, I'm definitely probably gonna have Chick-fil-A for lunch today. Well, that does it for another episode of the Modern Hotelier Hospitality's Most Engaged Podcast. Whether you're watching or listening, we appreciate you and we look forward to seeing you again soon. And thank you, Nick.
Nick Lawrence: my pleasure, take care.
David M.: Thank you.