Carolyn Hoerdemann

Show Notes

Intro: Boz's brain hurts, Ozark, the ordinariness of crime, drug running in Tijuana, Molly, Jerry Harris and Season 2 of Cheer, unpleasant surprises
Let Me Run This By You: I didn't do anything wrong.
Interview: We talk to Carolyn Hoerdemann about Steppenwolf's From The Page to The Stage, John C. Reilly, tenacity, hyper-empaths, Oscar Wilde's fairy tales, Tarrell Alvin McCraney, feminist theatre, Pump Boys and Dinettes, Faith Wilding, Rob Chambers' Bagdad Cafe, Ominous Clam, Zak Orth, Good Person of Szechwan, European Repertory's production of Agamemnon, Danny Mastrogiorgio, Michael Moore's Roger & Me, Chicago Shakespeare Theater, the anti-memoir memoir, and Ann Dowd.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
1 (8s):
And Jen Bosworth from me this and I'm Gina Polizzi. We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? I have a place to go to do with, it's not my one bedroom with my dog and my husband, but it's still a lot of work, like an and so, and then on top of that, I mean, I just feel like literally, you know what, I texted you yesterday and you said you knew the feeling like my brain is hurting me, but not in a bad way.

1 (50s):
I don't have a headache. Like I don't, I just was, you know, telling our couple surface, like, I feel like I can literally hear my brain turning and growing and groaning and like working. I've never had that feeling before in my life, which is weird. But like that, that feeling of, oh, I'm doing or knowing that what it was, what it was like, I'm doing a lot of work, you know, like my brain is doing so ridiculous, but that's how I feel, but it's all like, it, it doesn't feel, you know, what it is. I'm used to doing a lot of physical work.

1 (1m 32s):
Like I'm used to my body doing a lot of work. Like whether it's, you know, like the jobs I've had, like even the jobs that I, when I was a therapist account, you know, a counselor at social services, like I spent a lot of my time, like moving cases of diet Coke and cause we were in like a halfway house. So like I did a lot of manual labor and lot and case management and case management management is a lot of manual labor, like taking clients to appointments. And like, so when using my brain now in this different way, like literally I wished I would have been a camera on me when I was redoing my resume and cover letter specifically for the ad industry, because it is like making something out of nothing and also using words to like basically, you know, trick people, not trick people, but you know, get them to think what you want them to think.

1 (2m 27s):
And you think, oh, well she's, you know, television writing. The thing about that is like, you can make up anything like television writing really. You can really say, and then pigs flew out of his asshole and then people are like, oh, that's a weird show. But when you're trying to sell yourself to a particular industry with a particular set of skills, trying to make your skills meld into the skills they want, I was like, I couldn't see. After a while I was like, I don't even know what this, like using words like in this space, you leave space is a big word now.

2 (2m 59s):
So Metta that you are selling yourself to an advertising

1 (3m 8s):
Up girl.

2 (3m 10s):
So the PR how I understand it is there is somebody affiliated with this that is an advocate of yours, a champion of yours. And she wants, she wants you in that industry.

1 (3m 23s):
Okay. Yes, you are understanding. And there's like multiple things here. So she's, she's a screenwriter that I met and she continued on with the master's program. But her big job is her. Her day job is she's like a creative director at an ad agency in the, in the copy department. Right? So she's a big wig and she edits, she's like, she's the big editor there right at this. And I guess they hop around from agency to agency. Look, I don't know how it works, but so she started this new job and she's like, I want you to come work in the copyright. She also gets a very large bonus for every person that comes on that she refers, which I good look, do what you need to do.

1 (4m 6s):
But I think it's like five grand per person that she brings. I that's what I'm led to believe from the website. So anyway, there's like a, and so she literally Gina. So I sent her my updated resume and cover letter letter looked great. And then she applied me for 30 jobs. So then I have two.

2 (4m 27s):
Wow.

1 (4m 29s):
So which sounds great, which is awesome. Copywriting, all different kinds of copywriting. But for each of those jobs, I have to fill out demographic form. So last night I literally was up after myself tapes one self-tape last night clicking. I am not a veteran. Yes, I am Latina. No, I'm not disabled

2 (4m 53s):
Online. I was going to say, why don't they have one form, but it's

1 (4m 58s):
Yeah. It's a different job number. Right? So like every time, oh my God. So then, and sign, you have to sign every, so I literally was like, by the time I went to that, my brain, I was like, what? I'm not a veteran. I'm not a veteran like that. I was like mumbling to myself. And so, so, but I have to say like, you know, it's a good skill to build for. Like, I think that thing about, we only use 5% of our brain. They they've like debunked that right. They've said like that. You can't, but I'm telling you my brain, just like the Grinch's heart grew three sizes that day. My brain is like literally growing three side.

1 (5m 41s):
I don't know if it's three sizes, but it's, I can feel my, my, my like pathways changing in terms of the skills that I'm using. So that's great. You know,

2 (5m 51s):
I don't know. I mean, it can't be bad. Nothing. The good news is all of this work you're doing can't lead to anything bad to something. Yeah. Not illegal, You know, honestly, it's really saying something. I finally started watching Ozark. Oh God. And I, what strikes me about it is like, oh, this is not, it's not that this could happen to anybody, but you just think about like how ordinary crime really can be, you know, and how criminals aren't all in a layer or living in a way it's just, it's just moms and dads and, and people who need it, who need money in and who needs to run around and get it right quick.

2 (6m 40s):
Yeah. And I don't know, I will, I'm only one, not even the full first season in, so there may be a lot of stuff that I don't know, but like, it seems to me that this Jason Bateman guy was just a regular guy who got kind of wrapped up in this criminal enterprise

1 (6m 58s):
Didn't happen. You, I can see like most of my clients that I saw like were knowingly doing, you know, they were like, oh, I'm going to be a drug dealer and a gang member now. And no, but there were occasionally people that got involved in like scams, you know, financial fraud that you could see how it would start off and, and, and case in point miles. And I have a friend, an older guy, friend, we won't name because this is so illegal was like, Hey, what are you guys doing over Christmas break? And we're like, we're going, doing whatever. And he's like, Hey, do you want to, I shit, you not do you, if you'd let me know if you want to make some money, driving a camper from here to Tijuana.

1 (7m 41s):
And I, why like, what are you talking about? He's like, yeah, we'll give you like each $5,000 of it. And I said, well, what do you mean? Why do you need the, the, the, the camper and Tijuana? And he was like, oh, there's drugs in it. There's marijuana. And I was like, no. And miles was like, absolutely not. I'm like, have you met miles? Are you boy?

2 (8m 3s):
Oh, not, not marijuana, I guess,

1 (8m 5s):
Because it's marijuana. I don't, I don't

2 (8m 7s):
Think it's legal. Why do they have to do

1 (8m 9s):
That? I don't know. I think it was like a mass quantity or something like that. I don't know. Like, you're not allowed to like traffic, like large amounts of marijuana from different countries to over the border. Like, but so, especially in Mexico, like what? So I don't know. And we were like, Myles was like, absolutely not. I mean, miles is a lawyer. Like, what are you talking about?

2 (8m 34s):
Well, it's funny how just one casual aside a reference can really change your whole perspective on somebody you've known for a long time. Like I thought I've been in that situation before, you know, you think, you know, somebody and then they just casually say like, well, you know, we're swingers or

1 (8m 55s):
The other, the other, the other day I was meeting with somebody. Totally. And this actually didn't make me think less of him, but it was just like, he's like a totally looks like a total straight laced guy. If you're going to look at him, you know, white dude, thirties, balding, whatever. And he's like, yeah, I met him like the first time I, he was talking and he was like, oh yeah, the first time we met, we did Molly. And I was like, wait, what? At first I thought, Tina that's crystal meth. And I thought, but that wasn't, that it's Molly is whatever, HBM,

2 (9m 25s):
Whatever,

1 (9m 26s):
MTMA Molly. And I, like, I was so weird and we're like old people, what is happening? It's sitting in a cafe and you're talking about Molly. I don't know. I just it's, it totally rocked my world, which is, I think why I like to write too is because I do like to write those things in where you're like, wait, what? You know? Like, like,

2 (9m 53s):
Yeah, I have to say just, just the thought of learning, something like that, about somebody that I know is scary to me. And it, it just made me remember that I, after you mentioned season two of cheer, I started watching it. And I forgotten about the whole thing about that guy, Jerry Harris. And it was so heartbreaking to me when that happened. Not that it's worse or better if the person is well-known, it's just, you know, he, he seemed like a person who has such a hard life and it seemed like he was finally getting some, you know, something that he really deserved.

2 (10m 38s):
And then, and of course, I understand that when I hurt that hurt people, hurt people. And that he was probably doing this because this has been done to him. I don't know, man, I don't, these are surprises. I don't care for, I wanted it to stand for the rug and like for these kids to go on and being abused, that's not it at all. It's just, it's so disheartening. Well, it's really

1 (11m 5s):
It's. So there is, so yeah, it goes beyond grief. It's like goes beyond disappointment. It's like grief. And it's also, I think for me anyway, and I don't know about for you recreates the feeling of which is what I felt all the time with my parents, which is, oh, I know these people. I can trust these people. Oh God, I'm not safe around these

2 (11m 30s):
People. Okay. Thank you. That's exactly what it is.

1 (11m 33s):
I have that experience in Los Angeles, 40 times a day. Right. We're like, I want to like someone and then they'll say some fucking shit. And you're like, okay, well this is, you're a psychopath. Okay. Right. Like I'm talking to this. There's like, I meet them all the time at co-working because you know, co-working attracts like everybody, you just have to have money to have an office here. It's not like they, you know, vet people and some I'll be having a conversation with someone who seems relatively normal. And then they'll be like, oh yeah. You know, I was like, I really admire this Japanese porn star that like really knew what she wanted in life.

1 (12m 13s):
And it's not that there's anything wrong with being a Japanese porn star. It's that this guy like casually dropping, you know, and then talking about the kind of porn she does in a coworking setting. I I'm like, dude, I gotta go. I gotta make a fucking resume over here. Like I don't need to, but it's it's that in with him. It's just, I was just more like, oh, you're that you're going to bring this up to a stranger. Then I'm getting better about like, what's safe and not safe. But I do think that when you invest in something like Jerry or the cheer or a parent, and then they fucking do some shit, you're like, oh great. I'm not safe with you. That's,

2 (12m 50s):
It's what it is. It makes the feeling of own. And then, because I tend towards misanthropy, I'm like, okay, nobody's say if you can't trust anybody, everybody's out to get you, which is not true either. But it becomes, that is my defensive posture that I immediately tack back to, you know, I could go away thinking like, oh, there's goodness in the world. And some people and humans are inherently good. And then boom, something happens and I fail. And instead of, and I don't do the opposite when somebody does something good. I don't say yes, it's P you know what I mean? I don't, I don't have the same positive connotation that when somebody does something bad, it makes me say everybody's terrible.

1 (13m 34s):
It's really interesting because I'm having the experience of having to, what is it? So having to have a little more caution with people, I tend to really, really, really love everybody at first. Like really like I'm like, that person is awesome, but then they start talking crazy shit. And in the past I would have dismissed it and been like, no, I'm just sensitive. Right. Or I'm just so I'm trying now to be like, no, I wasn't there. When I was in therapy yesterday, I was like, no, no. Like in that moment I felt like this is not good for me.

1 (14m 16s):
And if I am not going to stand up for myself and take care of myself, nobody else is. So I have to mix a little more of the caution in with my, what can be Pollyanna kind of stuff. I have to be mindful of what my instincts are telling me about somebody, because I then will end up, you know, talking about very explicit Japanese porn techniques for half an hour and then walk away feeling violated and fucked up.

2 (14m 49s):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. You know, I knew this. I ha I know somebody who's exceedingly reserved. She doesn't, I like her I'm we're friends, but she doesn't tell you anything about herself. Like, or it takes a long time. And it's just this little snip, like, as an example, I don't know how old she is. And I bring up my age all the time and I, and I think she's younger than I am, but somebody recently said, oh, actually I don't think she's. I think she's more like your age, but that's, but she's never chimed in whenever I've said anything about how old I am.

2 (15m 31s):
She, she, she won't tell she's, she's a mystery. And on the one hand, I think, oh, she's just, she's just protecting herself for the reason that you just said. I mean, you know, she, she knows me kind of, but it's not like she really, really knows me. Some people really wait until some people don't just give out their confidence to anybody for some people you really, and I, you know, I guess like good for her. Maybe that's the way to go. I don't know. I, I tend to be more like you, not that I love everybody, but that I assume, I assume everybody has good intentions.

2 (16m 13s):
And, and then it's very surprising and sad and shocking to me when they don't like the thing that happened to me last week, this fricking guy, I was at the, I was picking my son up from tennis and where I've been, where I've been. Yes. And the place has bad vibes. I, I w I don't like the place. The parking is annoying, but yeah, the parking is annoying anyway. So you're, you're not supposed to wait by the curb. The parents aren't supposed to wait by the curb and align for their kids to come out, but everybody does. Right. It's just how it goes. Cause there's nowhere to go. Right. And it's, and it's been really icy here. So even sometimes I will park whatever, but this time I'm thinking, well, it's really icy.

2 (16m 57s):
And I just don't want him to, it's not lit up really in the parking lot. I just don't want him to fall. So I'm waiting in line and the guy in the car behind me hunks, and I, I assume he's not honking at me. Why would he behind me? Me? I'm just, my car is just sitting there honks again. Hong's a third time. And I put my arm out, like, go, go around. I just thought maybe he didn't think he could go around me. I still honking. So I just kind of opened the door a little bit. I look behind me and I'm like, what's the deal? And he's just yelling something. So I think, okay, whatever, I'll just loop around, pull over, go through the parking lot, turn to come back. And the guy I had the right of way.

2 (17m 39s):
And he just zoomed in, in front of me made so that I had to slam on the same guy. So I had to slam on my brakes, but then he gets out of the car and walks up, walks over to me. Of course, I lock my doors and he's like just screaming obscenities at me. Now later on, I had the thought this of course had nothing to do with me. Of course, this is how, you know, I didn't do anything wrong. This is about a person who really wanted to kick the dog. And he found that he found somebody to, to do that with absolutely. But I tend to go through my life in kind of this bubble of like, everybody's got everybody's well-intended and maybe even he was well-intended it just, it just didn't come across in the, in this experience.

2 (18m 30s):
And

1 (18m 32s):
Did he walk away?

2 (18m 34s):
I said, get the fuck away from me. Get the fuck away from me. By the way, my dog was in the back of my dog, who barks at literally every leaf like Wallace.

1 (18m 54s):
What kind of wing man are you? You fucker anyway. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I think those experiences are very particularly about driving and cars and obviously there's a whole road rage. Like there's literally a television show about road rage, right? Like the truth really? Oh my God. Yeah. It's a horrible it's so triggering. Don't watch it, but okay. I mean, yeah, it's ridiculous. But that being said it's very, to me, what happens to me in that situation? I'm sorry, that happened to you is yeah. Like what you mentioned on social media, which is feeling completely powerless and like, it's scary.

1 (19m 38s):
It's out of control. It's traumatizing. It's I, it's not good. It's not good. And it is also to me that what the feeling is being ambushed, right? Like you're being ambushed by, by a fucking crazy ass and you didn't do anything wrong. See, the thing is, I get into this thing of like, I didn't do anything wrong. And again, if I can get to the core of it, which is as a kid, I literally didn't do anything wrong. And all this shit rained down upon me, this trauma and this and this in this bullying and this whatever. And it triggers that in me. Like, wait a minute.

1 (20m 19s):
I, all I'm trying to do is do good, protect my son, pick up my thing, do this merge into the fucking freeway. It doesn't matter. And then I get like, this is not fair. Like I get really hurt is what it is. I get hurt. I'm shocked and hurt. And then the person, there is no, there is no resolution, right? Like the guy doesn't then call you later and say, I'm so sorry I acted a Dick. Or you can't even call the police and be like, this guy acted like a Dick. We're like, they're like, well, did he threaten you? No. Did he? Then they're like, fuck yourself.

2 (21m 5s):
Right. To say that it's, it is linked to, you know, growing up in a dysfunctional family. I'm for myself, looking a little bit more deeply into that. And because I, and I'm not saying this is the case for you, but for me, I think that I have said that I think that I have convinced myself that I'm never doing anything wrong, you know? And, and not just say that I was doing something necessarily wrong in the situation with the sky, although actually, you know, if I could have crafted it better, I would have paid attention to the flag from really from the first time they honk, which is like, there's something wrong with this person.

2 (21m 51s):
Do you know what I mean? Like, and yes,

1 (21m 55s):
Like get away, let me remove

2 (21m 57s):
My instinct. My instinct is to want to fight back. In fact, I remember this time that the some concert or something like that with Aaron, it was early in our relationship. So I was in my early twenties and this guy kept whatever. He kept stepping too close to me something. And I, I pushed him and pushed him. He, and of course, what did he do? He looked at Aaron like, are you gonna like, don't do that to me. I don't want to, you know, and it's, but it's not fair. He's encroaching on my space. He's like fair. Who, who told you the thing that we're going to be fair? Like it's, you know, so I guess that's the thing is I sometimes go out in the world thinking like, I'm an, a student and therefore, you know, nothing.

2 (22m 42s):
I don't, I shouldn't be getting any demerits. And if I get into merit, it's not my fault. I do that a lot.

1 (22m 50s):
I have the same thing. Yeah. I mean, I, I do it where it's like, I, yeah, I have my version of that is like, I'm a nice person. Like I do good. I'm nice. How dare you do bad or do wrong or treat me bad. Yeah. I mean, he it's, all this stuff is so layered. And

2 (23m 10s):
As far back, like it takes a lot. Yeah. Yeah. It's so far back. If it took this many years for us to form this way, imagine how long it's going to take us to On the podcast we are talking to Carolyn. Carolyn has a BFA from a theater school and imitate from the school of the art Institute of

3 (23m 45s):
Chicago. Carolyn is a performer and a professor and a lovely and pathic, amazing human. So please enjoy our conversation with Carolyn Bournemouth.

4 (24m 8s):
We're not here to talk about cancer. I've got no theaters because the Rick Murphy shirt Murphy's now this is actually made by Kevin Foster, who was my, that student. But I guess so I directed a workshop that he was in. He's a wonderful man. He ended up moving to Alaska, teaching people how to climb ice mountains. And now has a wife and a baby and never left Alaska. So we had that weird connection. Cause I lived in Alaska for the summer in between my first and second year of school, which I guess is it's like another theater school story in a way. I forgot about that one.

2 (24m 47s):
We're here. So Carolyn Hornimann, congratulations. You survived theater school. Yes you do.

4 (24m 56s):
You survived it. I know. That's why I bought this very expensive mix. So I would get lots of voiceover work that I never get.

2 (25m 2s):
Hey, maybe this is going to be your open Amy

4 (25m 4s):
Visit shit. This is it. This is my ticket. This is my ticket. I love podcasts.

2 (25m 10s):
So you survived as a student and you teach

4 (25m 13s):
DePaul. I teach there. I mainly teach the non-majors, which I love, but I have directed a couple of a workshop, intro type things. But many years ago, I keep putting in proposals. They don't ask me to do again, supposedly next year, maybe I will be, which would be awesome because I have this idea to do a version of Bernhardt Hamlet with all genders and just like totally gender fluid. So

2 (25m 42s):
You have to submit a proposal

4 (25m 44s):
For a show. That's a whole nother story. I'm probably another podcast, but I have submitted proposals. But oddly enough, a couple of times I did direct. I was just asked to, and that, I guess we're going backwards to go forwards. Are we always bad and make it go forward? Right. Which is that amazing? I think it's David Ball. The book that they made us read called backwards and forwards. Do you guys think I read In HDL, you had to read this book called backwards and forwards. Anyway, I used it in my master's thesis too. Cause it's brilliant. But anyway, backwards and forwards, I was in graduate school.

4 (26m 24s):
Rick Murphy was like kind of very interested in what I was doing. I was doing work on performing new feminisms and he was like, what the fuck is that? What's going on at the white cards? You can curse. Oh, no podcast. And, and that's a whole nother story because actually Rick Murphy was not my teacher. I had David AVD, Collie, and I went into to Rick Murphy's office. Like I guess it was probably my senior year to ask him advice about wanting to go to London, to study his full cereals. Right. As if I hadn't already been studying for serious. Right. Cause I wanted to go to Europe and be a fancy pants, real actor. And he was like, why are you going to do that? Why don't you just stay here and find a company that does European work.

4 (27m 7s):
So then I was in the European repertory company for 12 years. Oh,

1 (27m 10s):
Oh, that's a, that's a nice long run. Is that, is that company still around?

4 (27m 14s):
No, that's another story.

1 (27m 16s):
You have so many stories

4 (27m 18s):
We need to have, like, I have too many stories, too many stories. I don't even

1 (27m 21s):
Know where to start. Well, here's where I'll start. Did you just let's get the facts? So you went to BFA at the theater school, but you got to be MFA somewhere.

4 (27m 32s):
Oddly enough. No, I got, what is an M a E a masters of art and art education from the art Institute of Chicago, which is funny. Cause the Goodman started at the art Institute. So I guess I'm like super Chicago already.

1 (27m 45s):
You did that. Okay. I wanted to get the facts down. That is why. So then I would like to start when you were a child, were you always this awesome where you just like, fuck it. I'm going to

4 (27m 59s):
Just be crunchy. I have cool glasses, like YouTube,

1 (28m 2s):
There's serial killer glasses that we have just FYI.

4 (28m 7s):
I am from a small town down south. And I guess in a way I knew somehow that I wanted to be an actor from like watching old Betty Davis movies with my mom,

1 (28m 17s):
Her like Betty Davis.

4 (28m 20s):
And then I, my dad died when I was a sophomore in high school unexpectedly. And I was with my English teacher who taught us Shakespeare. He was fabulous. Mr. Beaver, very eccentric man who was probably gay and was not able to be out in our little small town. And Mr. Beaver took us to another small farm town school bus to all in, to see the show that was coming in from Chicago. And it was from the page to the stage Shakespeare by step and

1 (28m 55s):
Walk, a little company called

4 (28m 59s):
John C. Riley was one of the two count of two actors. There was a man and a woman. I wish I knew who she was. I went on deep dive search last night to find out and I can't find it anywhere on the internet. Was that my computer making a noise? Oh,

1 (29m 15s):
I didn't hear, I didn't hear it either. So something, well, here's the thing I'm sort of in touch with John C. Riley for various weird reasons. So I might ask him,

4 (29m 27s):
Please ask him, oh, he's the only one that will know. It's not anywhere on the internet. And I don't talk to him, although he's very close with Rick Murphy, oddly enough. They're like buds. But so, so anyway, we're in this, you know, school editorial, I'm watching this Shakespeare show with Jonsi rally and this woman that was also amazing. I hate that. I only know the guy, right. But they had a trunk and they would pull out costumes and props from the trunk. And they went through several scenes of Shakespeare. It was, you know, like devised, wonderful, amazing theater traveling the country, like the old frickin work progress association do used to do with the federal theater, which we should still have. Thank you very much.

4 (30m 7s):
And I, you know, had the PR I remember holding the program to like, with like, who are these people? What did they do? Where did they go to school? Oh, theater school, DePaul university. That's one question. Okay. How old were you? Like 15 amazing. Maybe 16. Cause I looked and it said it was 86. My dad died in 85. I was 15. I was 16. So I then also had, I was the president of the thespians of Lincoln community high school in Lincoln, Illinois. And I had, we, one of the things that we got was I forgot what it was. Oh, I wish I remembered it was a fabulous name. Like it wasn't forensics theater or something.

4 (30m 49s):
The, the title of the magazine you would get, it was like a high school theater magazine. And you got a free subscription of that for a year. Cause you, you know, you were the president of the Philippines and it also of course had a wonderful little spread about the theater school. So then I decided it was either going to be NYU theater school. My mom wanted me to go to ISU and kept saying, John Malcovich went there. John Malcovich went there because that was only 45 minutes away from me. So she really wanted me to go there, you know, cause my dad had just fucking died and she and I had moved from the country into the town and she wanted me to stay close, but she wasn't going to say that. But I know that now that that's what she wanted. Plus it was a lot cheaper and also Webster, which is in St. Louis. I think so somehow I got into, I think ISU in Webster, but I don't remember auditioning.

4 (31m 33s):
I think I just like had to write an essay and say I wanted to go Tish. I didn't even, I don't think pursue it because I couldn't afford to go to New York to audition. I only auditioned at the theater school. I addition to in my junior year I got in and my junior year, I knew where I was going for my senior year of high school. That's awesome. My brother drove me there and his, he had this old convertible. I remember driving down lake shore drive with my brother. It's my brother who now has cancer. And he took me to this audition. I don't know where he went or what he did with his big, long, old, like 67 do you know, muscle car that he had. But I went in and I did the audition and I did the voice and I did the weird movement and I did my two monologues and I don't remember exactly who was there.

4 (32m 16s):
I think it was maybe Phyllis Gemma stuff. Maybe it was his Carol Delk person who was a movement teacher who then I never really had. But anyway, yeah, I got, I got in, I remember getting the letter. I remember standing on my stairs in my house in Lincoln, Illinois, because then, you know, you've got to actually better in the mail. There's no emails or anything. And I was standing on the stairs is my, mom's stood at the foot of the stairs and opening it and being like, and then she's like, well, you know, we'll figure it out

2 (32m 47s):
Time out for one second. Do you think that kids think about us opening letters? The way that we think about people opening scrolls

1 (32m 55s):
Or telegrams? Yeah.

4 (32m 59s):
I have to explain to my students with snail mail is because at the end of every quarter I send everyone a little card, just a little thank you card. I've been doing it for like 15, 16 years now. So I can't stop now that I started this tradition and I'll ask them for their snail mail and they'll be like, what's that? And then I'll have to explain to them what it is and then they'll give it to me and they'll leave off like there's zip code or the town on her. I'm like, no, you have to put everything.

1 (33m 19s):
So there is a, I met someone at my coworking space who is like, I think 25 and they didn't know to put stamps on letters. So he just

4 (33m 34s):
Imagined that he

1 (33m 34s):
Was going to the post box and I said, oh, you're going to the postbox. I said, oh, you forgot your stamp. He goes, what? I was like, oh my God. Anyway.

2 (33m 46s):
And also I have to backtrack about one of the things that John C. Reilly thing was that a DePaul production or Novus Devin

4 (33m 54s):
Oh seven

2 (33m 55s):
Will forever. Right? Okay.

4 (33m 57s):
It must've been one of his first jobs out of school cause it was 1986. And I was also looking because there was this amazing picture of him from Gardenia, I think in the brochure. So then not only are in the magazine that I had, I don't think I ever got a brochure in the mail. It was this magazine. I'm going to find out the name of it. Cause it was just a cool little magazine that the theater kids, theater nerd, Scott, and we, and I got it for free when I was the president of, at that speeds. And so there was this wonderful picture that was some of the, you know, lovely glorious lady like grabbing, holding onto his leg or something was very dramatic. And this story goes further because then I'm at the theater school is my freshman year and there was the God squad party.

4 (34m 39s):
Nobody's really talked about the gods squad a little

2 (34m 41s):
Bit.

4 (34m 43s):
So the God squad party, I don't remember who my God parent was. I don't even, I must not been very good cause I have no idea who it was, but I was at this party and John C. Riley was there.

2 (34m 56s):
You must've been levitating.

4 (34m 59s):
And Don Elko was there. There was teachers therapy for smoking and drinking with the teachers. I was like, mind blonde, what's going on? And I said, I want it to John C. Riley in the kitchen, leaning up against the kitchen sink with like a beer or something. And I was like, excuse me. I need to tell you it's still on me about why I'm here. You know? Like I got tell him

2 (35m 22s):
That he's

4 (35m 23s):
A nice guy. Remember what he said? I don't remember anything. I was just like, that's

1 (35m 27s):
So good that,

4 (35m 29s):
And this is before yeah, it was famous. Right. And he might not have even ended up being famous. This is like, I thought he was that famous from skiing. That fricking page, the stage new person traveling around tiny little rural towns of Illinois.

1 (35m 45s):
That's amazing.

4 (35m 47s):
So I would love to know what he thinks of that, that show. If he has memories of doing it, who the other,

1 (35m 53s):
This podcast. I mean like you'll listen, you'll listen to, if you listen to some of the podcasts, you'll hear my John C. Riley story. It's pretty, it's pretty funny.

4 (36m 1s):
Oh, you have one too. Okay. I've been, I went this way. I have bags. I went down deep dive last night.

2 (36m 9s):
I love that. A lot of people do that. A lot of people when they find the podcast go and listen to a bunch of. So what was the experience like for you? You were walking down memory lane. What was it making you feel?

4 (36m 21s):
Ooh, I don't know. Now it's making me want to cry. It was, you know, I was 17 and I started there. I had no idea what I'd got myself into and a lot of it, you know, really broke my heart, but I also think it may, you know, like everyone else has said it made me who I am, made me kind of a tough skinned bad-ass, but I'm also a hyper empath and have trauma. And so now I have to deal with, you know, all of that in my old age. But I did have experiences there in classes with certain teachers, with certain instructors, certain directors, I lived with five girls in a two bedroom apartment on the corner of Sheffield and Belden.

4 (37m 13s):
We were all poor. Nobody could afford anything else I could barely afford to go to showcase. It was only in New York that year was when they went back and forth between New York and LA I guess, or I don't think we'd even started doing LA. It was the only New York and yeah, I don't know. I mean the whole casting pool process, the whole cutting process. I mean, obviously it didn't get cut, but that was, you know, traumatic. I've heard other people talk about how they didn't really think about it or this and that. Like Eric Slater was like, I don't really think about it. And I was like, I have to say,

2 (37m 45s):
I hope that isn't over the wrong way. A lot of men didn't really

4 (37m 47s):
Think about it. I was going to say, it goes a little bit ago and I know him, I'm friends with him and sat there for a little bit of privilege there.

2 (37m 55s):
Just like, it's just, it's like how a fish doesn't know it's in water. Like you just don't know.

1 (38m 1s):
Yeah. I mean, they just are doing their set dance. Right. And everyone's dancing around them, but we sort of had to do our own thing. What do you think the tears are about? Like when you, when is it just raw motion or is there like tears for young, a young version of you? Or like it's just a lot.

4 (38m 22s):
I'm a very teary person. I think. I don't know exactly what it is. I'm in therapy. It's I know. I just,

1 (38m 29s):
I am the same way. Like I,

4 (38m 32s):
I get, I get overwhelmed. I get really moved just by kind of yeah. And that sort of strange and weird that I'm still there in some weird way. Like I'm an adjunct, I teach the non-majors, but I'm there. And I went back actually, Rick Murphy directed a show that I adapted for the children's theater called the selfish giant and other wild tales. W I L D E all the Oscar Wilde's fairytales and Alvin McCraney was in it. First of all, Oscar Wilde wrote, wrote, he wrote fairytales and I had actually adapted another book that somebody else ended up having the rights to.

4 (39m 13s):
And so Rick was like, well, you know, I know you really wanted to do that one, but if you find something else, I'll still direct it. And so I was like, okay, let's do this. And so I adapted us, grows fairytales. Awesome. For me to read, love, to read that I can find it somewhere. Might actually be a hard copy of it and I'd have to like scale or something. I don't know where it is. That was like 2002. I think there's also pictures of that. I also found which I didn't know the production history of the theater school online. You get the pictures for almost everything and they're almost all taken by John Bridges, right. Bridges, which is amazing. Cause these, I don't know why I only have these two printed out of the old whore and the sister-in-law from the good person of such one, which actually is like a happy, sad, weird story because I auditioned to be <em></em> course and I was called back for it and I really wanted it.

4 (40m 8s):
And it was that awful time where they would post on our side of the theater school, glass doors that casting it like midnight. So we would come there while we waited and we went to the door and not only did I not get it, but one of my friends got it, of course. Cause how were, how was it not going to be your friend gets it? And, and then I see old whore and sister-in-law, and I just, I had heels on and I took them off and I started running and I like cut my feet up, running in the street crying and like old 18 years old. And your sister-in-law told her, well, that's another thing, you know, because of my voice and my larger frame, I've always been cast older.

4 (40m 53s):
Even in high school. I have a very traumatic story actually being in high school. And my father dying when we were doing cheaper by the dozen, which if you know the story, the dad leaves at the end and doesn't come back cause he dies and we're doing this play. And it was must have been like the end of the rehearsals right before we opened. And my director who was one of the English teachers at my high school, I remember being on the phone with her because I remember exactly where I was standing in my house. And instead of being like really sympathetic about my dad dying, she was talking about how I was the younger of three of the sisters and the girl that got the older sister, which is the part I wanted, who was the daughter of another English teacher who was always getting all the parts I wanted.

4 (41m 34s):
She didn't have as big of breasts. And my English teacher was like, maybe we can, you know, tape you down. And I thought, why didn't you just cast me as the older sister plus I was wearing this like beautiful, old, like 40 suit. That was my mom's was vintage suit that I loved. So it was kind of tight and probably did really show my frame. I was 15 and my dad had just died. This woman's telling me to tape my breasts down.

2 (42m 7s):
So yeah,

4 (42m 7s):
I always, I always got cast older and I can see what

2 (42m 10s):
He went down the road of wanting to do feminist theater. I mean, it sounds like from an early age, you were, you were made aware of double standards and beauty standards and all that kind of stuff.

4 (42m 21s):
1994, I think it was, I had graduated. I was auditioning. And it was when you had to look in like this paper for the auditions and there was like a line you called, oh God, I wish I could remember it. It was, you had to call this line and stay on hold forever and listen to all the audition notices. And there was an audition for pump boys and dynamics, which I was excited about. Cause I'd seen it when I was younger with my mom and I thought, oh, that's fun. And it literally said the men will be paid. And I got a fucking article in the Chicago Tribune about that.

2 (42m 55s):
You did. Oh, tell us about it. You just wrote about,

4 (42m 60s):
You know, they they're, they're like backpedaling about, it was like, well it's because the musicians they're going to get paid and the musicians are mad at first of all, now I'm thinking back like, why did the musicians have to be men? And you literally still wrote, the men will be paid. He didn't write, the musicians will be pay. So yeah. I don't know how I did it now. Now it's all kind of a blur. I just started calling places and I got a reporter from the Tribune to like talk to me and do a whole article about it.

2 (43m 25s):
Oh. So you're really tenacious. That's what I'm getting. I'm getting that. You get something, whether it's a goal or you're trying to write an injustice and you attach yourself to it,

4 (43m 36s):
Right. I'm an Aquarius moon. I know this. Isn't an astrology podcast, but I've looked at your side. I've learned in the last couple of years, I'm Scorpio, sun cancer, rising, thus the tears and then Aquarius moon, thus the righteous justice for all.

2 (43m 52s):
I love that. I love that you

4 (43m 54s):
Did tons of work after school ended up doing tons of work like in, in schools, after-school programs, writing and drama programs and things like that, which ended up taking me to go back to graduate school and get the Mae and education. But then that was like a lot of solo performance work I did too, with this woman, faith wilding, who was like, look her up. She likes started women house it, I think Cal arts and like the seventies, she has this famous piece where she rocks in a rocking chair and says, I'll, I'll wait until I'm old enough. I'll wait till I fall in the I'll wait until I'm married. I'll wait. You know, just incredible woman who taught this class called new feminisms. She taught one called body skin sensation.

4 (44m 37s):
I mean just, and so I was doing all this incredible work again, looking at myself and being a woman and being an actor and what the trauma that I'd been through. And then my thesis was doing a performance experiment with a bunch of young women from all over Chicago, like high school age women talking about their mothers and feminism and teaching them about feminism and

1 (45m 1s):
Well what, okay, so, so a question for you, first of all, I tidbit I have to share that we ha we spoke with, I think it was Joel Butler who was a stage manager and said that they would come out and walk to tease us. When we were waiting for the list to come home, they would pretend that they had news and go like the people who weren't involved. Anyway, I just have to say the whole thing was a setup. Like the whole thing was a fucking setup. So all it was like the hunger games and it was also that in itself was a play like a theatrical experience of man.

4 (45m 41s):
I don't really know how they do it now. It's all online.

1 (45m 44s):
It's all online. Yeah. They sent you an email with your casting, but I'm just saying like, when I look back, my little corner of the world was walk, walk, walk, look at the list. Feel like shit, walk, walk, walk. But there was a whole play happening around us of everyone knew what the fuck was going on. And it was part of the thing to have this sort of, yeah, it was, it was a production, it was a fucking production, a tragedy for most of us. Right? Like, and anyway, it just was interesting to hear the perspective, like everyone knew what was going on and everyone played a part is what I'm saying is what I get from the theater school. Like it was all back in the day. Anyway, it was all part of a thing.

1 (46m 24s):
And like, you get the idea

2 (46m 26s):
We're working through for some of the faculty who, you know, themselves couldn't realize their professional dreams. And you know,

4 (46m 35s):
That makes me so sad. I hope that it's really not

1 (46m 40s):
Okay. I mean, like it's not okay, but it's like, they, we, a lot of times we talk on this podcast, right. About the psychology of never fixing what you needed to fix in the first place inside of yourself gets fucking played out all over everywhere.

4 (46m 54s):
We are living in a new time of awakening and people being able to talk about their trauma. That was not that time. And that was also the time, like I said, where the teachers were coming to parties with us and drinking and somebody else was mentioned, somebody else was mentioning, you know, relationships between faculty and students. I only knew a couple of those instances, but yeah, the fact that they happen at all and yeah, yeah. I've found that like in my own teaching, like even, even in the last couple of years and I've been doing it for a long time, I just I've become so much more transparent. Like I talk about my own mental health issues or what's going on with me or I, I check in and check out with them every day. And it's like, what's something beautiful you saw today.

4 (47m 35s):
What, what are you going to do good for yourself when you leave this zoom glass, whatever, you know, like, so I think that as a culture we're evolving as facilitators instructors teachers, but yeah, we were there at a really hard, whoa time. I, for sure. I mean, you were there pretty shortly after that, but also I had some amazing experiences. I loved Betsy Hamilton. I loved John Jenkins. Jim. I still laugh. I actually had for two years cause Adam second year and fourth year, which nobody did because he randomly taught second year acting one year for some reason. And everybody had him for fourth year for what that was called, like ensemble or exit or whatever the hell it was called.

4 (48m 19s):
So I had him second and fourth year. He actually told me at one point, heard him out, what you're doing, why are you an actor? You should be a singer. And so then I sang in the, oh no, it was after I sang in this, it was Rob chambers thesis show Baghdad cafe. And I sang backstage live for just a couple parts of the show. Just Rob asked me to do this. I don't even remember how that all came about. And, and you know, Jim being the jazz and music aficionado called me to his office and was like, what are you doing? You should be a singer. Shouldn't be the act. But was that ever a, a w dream of yours to be a singer? I was in rock band called dominance clam <em></em> I did say I did sing a lot that there was a summer.

4 (49m 7s):
I wasn't even 21. So I would go, I've sang it like the Metro and I wasn't really supposed to be in there and, and Zach wards and Steve Sal and all these people from my class came to see me. And yeah, I wanted to do that and I would audition for musicals and stuff after I graduated, but just like Marriott Lincoln Shire and all those like fancy places would never hire me. And I would always end up in shows where I sent, but they weren't musicals, you know? And I also think I have a little bit of trauma around singing. I started singing in my church after my dad died. I was the song leader in Catholic church. Believe it or not. And I would go out the night before and be like smoking and drinking with my friends and then sitting on the alter with like the breeze and like, like Christ, what the hell are we doing?

4 (49m 55s):
I would say at funerals, I sang at my mom's second wedding. I sang at my brother's wedding, my sister's wedding, my other brothers. But yeah, I say I sang a lot. I haven't really been singing recently cause I, I usually end up crying when I sing. I had a very traumatic audition, 2008. I think it was where I cried when I was singing the song. And the song was about the girl's dad a little bit on the high note and it cracked and the casting director will remain nameless called my agent and told them that they thought I had mental problems and needed help. Okay. Again, this is something that would never happen today.

4 (50m 37s):
Right. But it wasn't that long ago, 2008, she also said that I was dressed in appropriately. I wore a forties style suit and a pillbox hat, because that was the period of the show. How is that inappropriate? That's someone who's. And why you calling my agent how intrusive to call my agent and tell them that you think I'm. And then the funny thing about it was I had just gone through a huge breakup and had moved and gotten a new job and all this other stuff was going on, but that had nothing to do with it. And that's nobody's business and I was moved by the song. And don't you want somebody, that's just somebody who, who is scared of their own emotions, like, correct. That's all that is. Yeah. So anyway, I digressed cause that's like post theater, school drama,

2 (51m 20s):
But I've had auditioning. Okay. So you arrived at the theater school at a tender young age. You

4 (51m 28s):
17. I was 17 because I have a November birthday, 17.

2 (51m 32s):
And you did your whole BFA there. Tell us about some of your show experiences.

4 (51m 41s):
Well, the one that I was going to talk about was the good person of such one. Cause oddly enough, it's the only one that I have printed pictures of. And I don't even remember when or how I acquired them. I think I got them from John Bridges cause he took all these pictures and that one of me is the sister-in-law. I don't know that that one was like a production photo. I think that was him coming up. And he saw me in this moment and like had to get this shot. So not only was I not cast as Shantay, which I want it to be now I'm the, the sister-in-law on the old whore. So I'm like, I'm going to kill this. I had 16 lines between the two characters, my old whore. If you look at that picture, I have a blonde wig. I didn't wear a bra. I have a tube, top, a pleather red skirt. I had these hoes that had a dragon up the side.

4 (52m 22s):
So it looked like I had a dragon tattoo on my leg and high, high red pumps that I think were mine actually from when I was in a beauty contest in high school anyway, and I got these earrings, oh my God. I think I found those earrings too. They were Chinese lanterns like that opened up, but they were earrings and they were huge. And I smoked a cigar. Oh. And I, I don't know if you remember this or if they did this when you were there, but after shows closed, mainly the main stage shows they had like this post mortem, postpartum, whatever you call it in the lobby and everybody <em></em> and they would critique. I probably blacked that right out while you sat there and just took it.

4 (53m 7s):
And, but I don't know if it was during that or like after that, I would just be like walking in the halls and all these teachers, some that I had and some that I hadn't yet even had made a point of coming to tell me how excellent I wasn't that. Sure. And it was not false. It was not put on. But I mean, come on. Those people did not give compliments unless they really felt

1 (53m 29s):
Whatever. Yeah, yeah,

4 (53m 30s):
No. And I was like, yeah, cause I freaking killed it. Cause I took it so seriously. I was like, I'm going to make these roles so deep and so real. And if you, if you look on the production photos, they have this screen and, and, and, and people would make shadow play on the screen at the beginning of the show to show like the street life of the pool or the Sichuan and stuff. And I got to ride a bike and I rode a bike across and you see the shadow of the girl on the bike and I'm like, I still look at that. And I'm like that.

1 (53m 57s):
So do you think that's, I love hearing that. That's a great story for me to hear. For some reason, it just really warm, but warms my heart, but also talks about Gina's calling you on being tenacious. But do you think that that sort of set a tone for, cause what I'm getting from you is that like you're simultaneously a, bad-ass a bit of an outsider never given your chance. Never really given the chance to maybe in terms of outside casting, do what you could really do. So then you take what you get and then you fucking kill it. Does that ring a bell

4 (54m 37s):
Kind of? I think so. And I think I've always been that way really. And that also being in that show, Joe sloth directed, it was Bertolt Brecht. And really got me thinking about political theater and theater for social movement and theater for change. And I really believe when I graduated and I started doing work at the European repertory company, I believed that doing theater could change the world. You don't think that anymore change sometimes, you know, it beats you down pretty hard when you, when you work and work and work and work and you have to have three other jobs. Cause you're in a theater company that doesn't pay you any money.

4 (55m 17s):
And I, I still like the best work of my life was at that place. I was client of Nestor and Agamemnon for three years. I mean, I, Y you know, yeah, the best work of my life, but was it going to say that there's a different, and I think it's good. There's a different culture, a different mindset. Now students now would never graduate and say, yes, I'm going to be in a school or I'm going to be in a theater company for 12 years that never pays me and I'm going to have three or four jobs. And it was nice to kind of almost like a martyr, poor theater, Jersey, Petoskey board theater mindset of like, I'm an artist. Well, of course I'm, I'm struggling and I'm poor and I'm, you know, but I'm for the oppressed. And so I must experience that.

4 (55m 59s):
I don't, I dunno, like it just, I wonder how much I manifested that, right. Because I, I would have auditions for TV and film stuff that I would get close to and just not get, or it took me. I was, I think, 30 when I finally gotten a show at the Goodman or no, wait, I was 30 when I got at apt in Wisconsin. I think I was even older when I got in the show at the Goodman. But anyway, yeah. You know, eventually I have done shows larger theaters, but I still will say, I mean, people that saw the stuff I did at the European rep and I was like 24, 25, but I played clouded minister and it was Steven Berkoff's choir master. So it was like the most rockstar frickin, you know, I made my own costume.

4 (56m 41s):
It was, it was all like fishnet. And I just like punched my hands through fish nets to make sleeves and high heels and crazy Kabuki makeup. And I stood at the top of this ladder Agamemnon. And I came out at the end with like Hershey's syrup on my hands after I'd feel them. And I was like, I mean, if you saw that as hit, you were blown away, this was three years while we did it, like in a regular run. And then it was so popular. It was so popular that we did it on Friday, Saturday nights, like late night. And then we were doing, cause we want it to be a real repertory. So at the time we were doing Agamemnon Electra, uncle Vanya, and this show called all of them are just, yes.

4 (57m 32s):
And we would also change this. You remind me, okay, this is what I think Steven Davis was talking about when he said he was in four shows at the same time he, he was in, he was in all those shows and yeah. So, oh my God,

2 (57m 51s):
That's super intense

4 (57m 53s):
Looking at my notes

2 (57m 54s):
That like, though, while you're looking at your notes, I mean, was that draining, not just the number of shows you did

4 (58m 4s):
The physical training. Well, also I was, yeah, I was like a waitress during the day. I mean, I had a job I had to live and I was a waitress where I could only work lunches because all the shows were at nights. So lunches weren't as busy. And if it was really slow at lunch, I mean, so I would find myself every day while I was working calculating in my head, how many tables I had to have, how many tips I had to get just to make enough for that week to pay the rent, you know? And at the time I was living with two British guys, actually, they're the ones that brought me into the European rep, my friend, Charlie, Charlie Sherman, who is a actor and director in and out of Chicago for years. I met him when I was 18.

4 (58m 44s):
And I worked at cafe Roma, which was down the street from the school. That was my job. Cause I also worked when I was in school. And so when other people were like, we're going to the dead show. You want to come? I was like, you get, not only do I not have money for that, but I got to work all weekend. Right. So anyway, he, he knew that I wanted to do the play Caligula and he called me up one day and he's like, oh my God, this company is already doing it. Maybe you should audition. And this was right when I got out of school. So I auditioned and I got in the chorus and like the first week, the girl that was supposed to place, Zonea had gotten a movie and left and they were like, okay, now you're the lead. And I was like, okay. And that, and that was the company that I ended up being with for 12 years.

4 (59m 27s):
But it was exhausting as it was. I know we did. We were also all like drinking and smoking and going to the bar every night after the show is

2 (59m 35s):
You is a powerful force. I was just thinking the other day, remember when you used to wake up in the morning and no matter what had happened to you the night before, and you're like, okay, well, but anyway, it's time to do it today. I haven't had that feeling in years. I haven't had that. Like I can even when some we've once a day, I'm super excited about, I don't ha I don't wake up with this body, like readiness that I remember feeling in my twenties and thirties. Okay. So look at your notes. What are you, what are some of, some of the points that you wanted to get to?

1 (1h 0m 7s):
So if a showcase question, I have a showcase. Cause I'm obsessed. Since I live in Los Angeles, now I'm obsessed.

4 (1h 0m 12s):
Oh my God, are you guys going to try to avoid? No, no, no, no, no,

1 (1h 0m 15s):
No, no, no. I'm obsessed with the idea of the showcase because I made such an ass out of myself at my showcase that I, we went to LA, but I know you were in New York, but what was that? I'm obsessed with the showcase experience because I think it is really one interesting, but two where DePaul lacked in so many ways to getting people to the showcase and then after the showcase.

4 (1h 0m 42s):
Okay, great. This was before stars and all that. So nobody was collecting money for us. You just had to, you either had the money or you didn't. And so I was able to get enough money to buy a plane ticket, but then I wasn't going to have anywhere to stay. So my friend, Sarah Wilkinson, who was also at the school, but a couple of years behind me, her boyfriend, Daniel master Giorgio, who's also been in a lot of TV shows and on, on, you know, Lincoln stage and public theater, like this dude that went to Juilliard, actually I stayed in his dorm at Juilliard on the floor cause I didn't have money to stay anywhere. And I also could only stay for like a couple of days where like other people were like staying the rest of the week or going out and partying.

4 (1h 1m 23s):
And I remember having like just enough money to do one of the things people were doing, which was go to a jazz club with Frick and Jim Osstell Hoff, which I did. And that was really cool. The other part of that, that was kind of messed up was in the, in the, you know, audition class that Jane alderman, God rest her soul. And I love her dearly and became closer to her. I probably more after school than during school, but in our audition class where you brought, you know, monologues, I had brought this monologue and then she loved it and wanted me to do it and was just like, that's the, when you're doing. And then I had this total panic about it and was like, I don't think this is right. I don't think this shows me in a good light.

4 (1h 2m 3s):
I'm going to pick something else. And I don't remember what my other second or third choice was. I did, I did have something else. And I remember calling her on the phone. I don't know if I called her office or at home. And again, before cell phones. So I remember the little window I was sitting in my apartment on the corner of Sheffield and Belden on our little phone, talking to Jane alderman, all nervous. Cause I was going to tell her I'm not doing that when it's not right for me. And she still talked me into it and I did this monologue from Roger and me, the film. Did you see it?

2 (1h 2m 34s):
The Michael Moore movie

4 (1h 2m 36s):
About the Michael Moore movie, Roger,

2 (1h 2m 40s):
The documentary about the auto industry. I mean, yeah.

4 (1h 2m 44s):
Yes. And it was the poor woman, poor white woman who sold rabbits. Pets are mate. Right? Pets are me. Got it.

2 (1h 2m 55s):
That's what I did. Wait a minute though. I have a feeling.

4 (1h 2m 60s):
So I actually became, I probably did, but I actually came from where they had tried to, to suppress and to change and to mold me into anything. But this hit girl from Southern Illinois. And then I did that. Right. And that's what I, I wore my boots. I wear my cowboy boots. I think I had my friend's jacket on my long hair. And I came out and I was like pets for me. Oh my God, mortified, mortified. And I only got, I got like a couple of calls, like one was from like a soap opera. And then another one, I don't remember. That was another weird thing. Like the same thing with the casting call we waited in, I was in somebody else's hotel room.

4 (1h 3m 42s):
Cause remember I didn't have a hotel. I was staying on the other side of town and the dorm room of somebody who went to Julliard. And so we're in somebody's hotel room waiting for Jim Mostel Hoff. And whoever else was with us to come in with like this list, it was literal. It was like my notes here. There was just like tiny pieces of paper with like telling us who got what calls. Some people were like, got nothing, got 10 that too, about whatever. Yeah. And, and mine were not meetings. Mine were just like, these people want you to call them or send your resume. I was like, they already got my resume. Everybody got what, what? So, you know, like I wanted to move to New York. I wanted to be a New York fancy actor, you know? So that was like really devastating too.

4 (1h 4m 23s):
But then I was like, well, if I don't get that, I'm going to be an amazing Chicago theater actor. And I'm going to show everybody that Chicago theater is actually better anyway.

2 (1h 4m 31s):
Yeah. I don't to remember VAs if I've told this on the podcast before, but remember how I did that thing or if I didn't get any meetings. And so then I snuck into administrative office at DePaul after showcase and I found a list of all of our names and everybody had gotten, everybody had agencies or agents names written next to theirs, but not everybody was told that. Yeah. Yeah. So,

4 (1h 5m 5s):
Oh, podcasts, then couldn't see my face gaping. Now what, what did you do? Did you tell, did you, what?

2 (1h 5m 12s):
I swallowed it and carried it around resentfully for the next 20 years. Yes ma'am I did my God. And you know, who knows? Maybe there was an important reason for that. Maybe it was, these are shady characters. I don't know what it would have been, but I, I know that I would have

4 (1h 5m 36s):
That you didn't feel. Yeah. I feel so bad for you that you didn't feel like you could, you know, go further, ask more. I don't know. Probably

2 (1h 5m 44s):
Carolyn it probably didn't occur to me. I'm sure it did. I'm sure. The way I thought about it was, well, this has happened now. It is over, this is the thing that it is forever such. I just, I would have never thought that way. I would have never thought to advocate for myself. I mean, I fought to find out,

4 (1h 6m 4s):
Snuck in there. You thought, well, enough of yourself to sneak in there,

2 (1h 6m 9s):
You know, whatever. That's that's for me to figure out because I, I, I that's what, but that's what I did with it. I, I took it. I took a carried it around like a shame instead of, oh, by the way, I didn't mean to blow anybody up. I just needed to say like, what's the deal? Like what happened happened, right. Yeah.

1 (1h 6m 29s):
I feel like it's interesting. It is. It is. It is just really, now that we have this podcast, we spend a lot of our time being like, well, yeah, what's the deal. Why did that happen? And, and what,

4 (1h 6m 41s):
I wonder what John Bridges or somebody like that would say about that.

2 (1h 6m 46s):
I I'm sure. John Bridges, who is a theater school loyalist to the end when say that, that I, that I misunderstood. He tells them he doesn't tell the truth. I'm saying, listen. And, and by that I've said a thousand times we understand that we couldn't possibly know all of the factors that went into any decisions like casting and stuff like that. And that there are certain things that happened. That felt terrible. That were for my own good, you know, but Yeah, because getting back to that whole thing about casting, I mean, I'm sure that the guiding principle in their minds was, this is what it's like, you know, you want to move to New York.

2 (1h 7m 33s):
I mean, Don, we had another person on here who told us living in New York. You, you you'd have to go wait in line in the morning at a theater so that you could get your audition later. And if you wanted to have, it had to be a lunchtime thing, so you could leave work. And those slots were on really early. And, and that it was just,

4 (1h 7m 55s):
And some friends who did get representation and then move to New York again, their parents like had money to pay for them to move to New York. And I moved in here and they ended up, you know, coming, coming back to Chicago because they, they weren't getting stuff and it's super expensive and stressful. And so, I mean, again, yes, there are things that happened that seemed, you know, dramatic and sad, but then I am glad, I guess that they, they happen. And then I ended up stabbing. Yeah. And then another casting story is that I was trying to remember everything I had done. And I only have five that I can remember, which is weird. Cause I know there should be six. And also that at the end of my senior year, when many of us senior women did not believe, you know, again, I was always a feminist.

4 (1h 8m 39s):
We did not believe we got, you know, good casting. We, it really the whole two years. And so we created our own show and did it in the courtyard. Oh, Do you remember? And invited the faculty and people came, oh, we, we created, it was devised. I mean, there was, there was stuff from John Vinitaly is the serpent. There was stuff from Sophie Treadwell's Maka. Now we had all of these easels set up in the courtyard that were empty. But what happened when we would walk up and stand in front of the easel as if we were all at a museum and each one we would look at would open up another scene. We had a lighting designer and a costume designer that also went to the school that were in our grade. That, that helped us do it. This is before email or anything. So we were putting posters up all over the school and the teachers were like, what is going on?

4 (1h 9m 21s):
What is this? And I think literally they were so curious. They could not believe we were doing this, that they all came because they were like, what are they doing? And we did it fricking shell. It showcased,

2 (1h 9m 32s):
We started a trend then, because a lot of people that we've talked to did that, I bet you guys were the first.

4 (1h 9m 38s):
I would love that. Oh yeah. It was 1992 baby. And I hope that we did start a trend. And that was before anybody said the word devised, almost everything I ever did was devised before anybody said that's what it was. Right.

2 (1h 9m 51s):
So you feel, you feel grateful that you stayed in Chicago. I mean, and that's why you got European rep maybe as, maybe now, do you want to get the hell out of there? Do you want to go?

4 (1h 10m 2s):
So why would I want to move to LA? I want to move to LA. I do. I want to try it. I want to live in the sunshine and one of my best friend lives there, she works for NPR and lives on Venice beach. She has a tiny house. I want to go live in her tiny house. We'll see. It might happen.

2 (1h 10m 18s):
Good. What, what, what are some of the, what are some of the heartbreaks of shows that you were going for in Chicago that you didn't get?

4 (1h 10m 34s):
I don't know. That's so funny because I have, I guess I've been focused so much on, on the theater school years. I kind of, oh, that's okay.

2 (1h 10m 42s):
And then what about for theater school? Do you remember a show that you really want?

4 (1h 10m 46s):
Well, got the one with the good, the Shantay, the good person upset Schwann, but actually the funny thing about it too, which I have to tell you because I, this was my initial, like best story, but you have to hear before we're done, there was a man named Stan <em></em> who Joe Loic knew. And he got to be in the good person of such wine. And this was very controversial because having an outside person, but I think that's what they to do with the old Goodman. So I think he thought it was okay, but for some reason, you know, how they all have these crazy rules, like you couldn't leave the school to go audition for something else and all that. They, they also didn't want, you know, outside artists, you know, in our shows because they're not being trained in the same methodology or whatever.

4 (1h 11m 31s):
So this Standberry's who I've found in the DePaulia just now the, the way it was advertised. It said, you know, claimed rock star, Polish, rock star, Stan bullies. And so he was, he was a Polish rockstar that was in our show and would do the songs, the, you know, the Brechtian songs. So every time there was a Brechtian song, he would come, he would be, I remember one time with him on stage. Right. I can see it. So clearly him in this spotlight and some like long leather thing. And he had like long hair and a beard, like, you know, Jesus. And he's like singing the Brechtian song, Joe slow, like getting so excited and rehearsals.

4 (1h 12m 15s):
He punched the wall, like holes in the wall and would do like headstands and, you know, I mean, just seriously incredible, like the incredible feeling of even though I had, yeah. Cause he was trained in grotesque and he knew how to do all that stuff and was doing it until like very late in his life. But that just the feeling of being in that large movement room, working on that play. And like you said, like I'm, you know, just told myself in my head, okay. If I'm not Shantay that I'm gonna make this the best thing I've ever done. I just, I still felt very privileged that I was in the main stage show with Joe and I was fascinated by the stem, you know, just like, and I don't really remember what ended up happening.

4 (1h 12m 58s):
I mean, he did the, he did the show. I don't remember how much pushback, you know, he, he had, but I want it to be in a play called lock up your daughters, which actually was a musical that Betsy Hamilton directed. And so like many others on your podcast. I went to her office to ask her why the feck, she did not cast me when I was, was it a musical musical? It was a musical. Right. Okay. Musical. And she told me that, and this is where the kind of the methodology of the schools kind of amped up, right. That I was the best one and that I was the most appropriate. And the reason I didn't get it was because the other girl needed it more than me needed.

4 (1h 13m 42s):
The experience needed that. It's like, well, I'm in school too. I need it too. And, and she was a girl in the woman, not a girl. We were not go swimming. She was in the master's program of the first year. And this was before they did, you kind of had to wait till your second or third quarter in the masters. This was like first quarter of, of her, you know, being able to do anything at our school. And nobody really knew this person, like, who is she? Why is she? Yeah. And Betsy, who I loved, who I knew was my champion because I was also the first casting I got was my best casting. I was in working. I got to meet studs, Terkel. I got to sing with Patti LuPone.

4 (1h 14m 22s):
She came to our gala and sang with us and I held her hand. Somehow I ended up being right by her. And we did like the curtain call of the gala with Patti LuPone, singing that song. Oh, I know I was more famous when I was 18 than I am now,

2 (1h 14m 41s):
Which you're describing of, they gave it to this person for, you know, an unnamed pedagogical reasons. I wonder about that so much, because if you think about it, if you really tried to break it down, it's so subjective. Like you're telling me, you know, what a purse, I don't know. There's something that seems so like chutzpah about that, that you would say, I know what this person needs.

1 (1h 15m 10s):
And they went,

4 (1h 15m 13s):
It seems almost like a lie to make me feel better. But I also know Betsy didn't really know.

1 (1h 15m 19s):
Ah, I bet she totally wholeheartedly believe that. I think, look, I think adults, I mean, we were young adults, but I think older adults often wholeheartedly believe the shit they're saying to young people. And, and that's what makes it so hard is I think that she really believed that that for whatever reason, that woman needed that part more and yeah, there's just no actual,

4 (1h 15m 48s):
I would have to go back and look, but I think that was the last quarter. So I think that's when all my girlfriends and I decided to do that. I mean that show, I mean, it was Chrissy hall, Lisa Collie, Wendy Shamberg, I'm trying to remember if I can remember everybody. I can't remember everybody that was in,

2 (1h 16m 3s):
Are you still in touch with those people?

4 (1h 16m 7s):
Some of them, not all of them. When Lisa Kelly passed away, whenever that was now four or five years, six years ago, we had a Memorial for her at DePaul. And a lot of them came back for that. And I saw them. Then I also stayed in contact with Deborah King, who was the young whore and that old or young work thing. She was one of my roommates. She ended up, she, she lives in Washington state. She's like a yoga teacher for trauma. She's amazing. And she does step online now. So her and I have kind of caught back up. She's the one that I went to Alaska with. So in between my freshman and sophomore year, another girl in my class, Julian leaky, he had already worked at this small theater in Skagway, Alaska.

4 (1h 16m 51s):
And she's like, they need two other girls. You guys should come with me. And we, I actually think we made like a VHS tape of us or something and send it to them to audition. And we got cast and then we had to leave school two weeks early. And it was this whole thing where we had to do our final scene and David Polly's class early. They had to agree to let us go early. And I dunno how we got them to do it, but they, they, they let us go. And we went to Alaska for the summer and did a CanCan historical show about the gold rush. My name was squirrel tooth Alice. We lived in an old whorehouse that had red velvet wallpaper. It was the most astonishing thing I'd ever done.

4 (1h 17m 32s):
And I thought my whole life was going to be traveling the world, seeing new places doing play. Right. Cause that was what I was doing when I was in between my freshman and sophomore year. But it was an incredible experience. And it was all because of this, this girl, Julian , who was my roommate had had, she was from Provo, Utah. And somehow there was a lot of actors from Provo, Utah doing this show and Skagway, Alaska. And they just happened to need two more girls. And so we got, holy shit. That's such a, so these girls that I lived with in college also then, well we lived in the dorms and then after we came back from Alaska, we lived together for the whole last three years on the corner of Sheffield and Belden in this two bedroom where there was two people in one, two people in one and one person in the sunroom.

2 (1h 18m 18s):
That's a little thing about how you imagined you'd be doing that for the rest of your life. So many things that happened to us at a young age, you know, it's like, well, if this is happening to me, this is how it always happened.

4 (1h 18m 32s):
Oh, it is when you're a professional working actor. This is how it is.

2 (1h 18m 35s):
Yeah. But you didn't return to Alaska the following summer though.

4 (1h 18m 40s):
No, I can't. I, if it was an option or if we just decided to not go, I don't remember why I worked at cafe Roma and I was in the band ominous.

1 (1h 18m 55s):
We have to wrap up, but I want to say like, what do you, what do you, what are your dreams now? Like what's happening now?

4 (1h 19m 6s):
Well, I've, I've written a feature length film that I'm trying to get made. And anybody out there in podcast land wants to be a producer, have some funds for that. I'm also writing what I call a book. It is an anti memoir memoir, and it is based on the five non-speaking roles I played in my first show at Chicago Shakespeare in 2000 where I was both the understudy for Ghana real and Regan and knew both of their parts.

4 (1h 19m 47s):
And at one point had been in the costume for <em></em> and then she showed up and they made me take it off and give a back door. I was supposed to go on for Regan the last two weeks, but then there was a stage, hand strike and she didn't end up having to go to do her next show. So she didn't end up leaving. So I never went on neither role, but they at Chicago Shakespeare, they would put your, they would tape your character name and masking tape on your mirror. So you knew when you went in your dressing room, which dressing room was yours. And I walked in and it said, lady slut, servant soldier. And that's the name of my memoir.

2 (1h 20m 27s):
I love it. Why is it an anti memoir? What does that mean?

4 (1h 20m 32s):
You don't, I don't know. I'm finding it out because I'm so I'm so adverse to believing that I could possibly write a book or that my story matters or that anybody would care that it's my it's probably like a defense it's also, you know, like I was saying to one of my writing partners, friends that, that I have to stop calling it a book because it's just too much, you know, like what, it's just some words on pages in together in an order because yeah, I, I might, I might not ever get it published or I might, nobody might ever read it, but that

2 (1h 21m 10s):
Doesn't like being a book. If it

4 (1h 21m 12s):
Doesn't get, I need to do it for me. So I've been writing it for a long time. I, I have another section of it. That's called how to cry in public tales of a hyper empath. And that was a performance piece. But now I'm realizing that like a lot of the performance pieces I've done and storytelling things that I've done as performative pieces can now be drawn back into the book.

2 (1h 21m 38s):
I love it.

4 (1h 21m 39s):
I love it. And I also want to move to LA and try to get a manager and, and do it for the Hills because I always, when I am in the 5 0 5 O category, which I am now, that that's when it was gonna really hit big for me and you know, and out that's what she thought too. She was about my, she was, you know, walking down the street and saw Elizabeth Perkins' name on the, on the marquee who was her classmate and was like, why is that not me? Why am I going to waitress? Oh, you know why? Because when I'm 50, it's going to happen for me. And that's exactly how to get hurt. You got to get her on here. I've tried talking about Sharon Gobert. She's in Brazil. You can find her on LinkedIn, get her on here.

2 (1h 22m 19s):
My hardest to get and out and out or people

4 (1h 22m 26s):
And doubt and doubt. You're saving my life right now.

5 (1h 22m 41s):
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina <em></em> are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina <em></em> for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our [e-mail]. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.

What is I Survived Theatre School?

We went to theatre school. We survived it, but we didn't understand it. 20 years later, we're talking to our guests about their experience of going for this highly specialized type of college at the tender age of 18. Did it all go as planned? Are we still pursuing acting? Did we get cut from the program? Did we... become famous yet?