[00:00:00] ​Intro [00:01:00] Phil: What's up everyone. Today we have the pleasure of sitting down with the lads from we're not marketers podcast. [00:01:17] About the Misfits --- [00:01:17] Phil: All three of these gentlemen work for themselves as fractional PMMs. Gab is based in Quebec city, Canada. [00:01:23] He's a messaging expert and also a marketing advisor for early stage startups. He's a product marketer and a four times solo marketer at various different brands And sports in incredible mustache gap. Thanks for getting this set up and appreciate your excitement for this collab. [00:01:39] Gab: Thank you very much for the compliments, uh, on the mustache and on my, uh, background, but very happy to be here. [00:01:46] Phil: Also joining us today is sack Roberts based in California. He worked in B2B SAS sales for half a decade before pivoting to product marketing with a focus on enablement. He's worked at pretty awesome names like Dropbox, LinkedIn, Google. No big [00:02:00] deal. He's also a two time recognized product marketing influencer by PMA. [00:02:04] Zach, pleasure to have you on the show, sir. Thank you for your time. [00:02:08] Zach: Phil, hey, it's gonna be a really fun conversation. Really excited for it. [00:02:13] Phil: And last, but certainly not least, we're also joined by Eric Holland, who's based in Pennsylvania. He's a product led content pro who also runs a retail apparel startup and is a recovering in house product marketer. He's also the mastermind behind the creative AI Scully's artwork for their podcast. Eric, also excited to collab on the artwork for this episode. [00:02:31] Thanks for joining today. [00:02:32] Eric: Oh, it's gonna be fire and I'm so happy to be here, Phil. Thanks for bringing us on, man. [00:02:37] Phil: [00:03:00] [00:04:00] I love the Scully's artwork for the show. I don't think there's a lot of podcasts that do what we do like original artwork for every single episode. I feel like most of the time I share an episode on social and a lot of folks will just be like, Ooh, the cover art looks awesome. It's not like, Oh, that content was great. [00:04:54] It's like attracting people just from the cover, but I wanted to ask a fun one from the top, [00:05:00] why the skulls? How did that idea come to be? [00:05:03] Eric: Oh, man. Well, I think the easy answer is like, I'm just super obsessed with everything Liquid Death does, even though I don't, I don't even buy their, buy their product. I just buy their branding. But when we were thinking about it, You know, some of the positioning we had, um, and the messaging that was coming out of it was like, we feel dead inside. [00:05:22] And I immediately was just like, well, what's dead skeletons. And, um, and similarly to you, it was very much like every time I see an episode, it's like a person's face and the same color background they used in the last 30 episodes. So I thought it'd be cool to do something different and almost look like a, like a, like an album cover type feel instead of just. [00:05:45] You know, faces and whatever. [00:05:47] Phil: Yeah, I love it. [00:05:48] Eric: I went to read a couple of times to try to make the illustration look like the guest and some guests loved it. Like they loved seeing the AI caricature version of themselves and some [00:06:00] people hated it. Like they found the process really weird and like there's a lot of weird shit in mid journey and like all these like, like dally to like how the models are fed into like the different artwork that they have. [00:06:12] Phil: So some people found it really weird and I might like follow suit this year and like have. A more kind of like less facial feature cover art. And like, I'm, I'm a huge fan of like space exploration and sci fi. So I might do these like astronaut type of like robo background. So we'll see what happens there. [00:06:32] But yeah, excited to collab on the cover art for this one. [00:06:35] Why Go to Market Strategy Has Become a Buzzword --- [00:06:35] Phil: Um, the first thing I wanted to ask you guys is GTM. When did GTM as an acronym just start getting stretched out of reality? I grew up in marketing. I don't know about you guys, but like when go to market was a product marketing thing, it was a term used for bringing a new product or a new feature to your audience, your target audience. [00:06:58] And it had things like the problem you're [00:07:00] solving, positioning, messaging, goals, input metrics. Messaging across different channels. Nowadays, like everyone on LinkedIn is a GTM expert. Sales is GTM. Marketing Ops is GTM. Rev Ops is GTM. Customers like, what the fuck happened to GTM as a term and has it lost its usefulness now that it's applied to kind of everything? [00:07:21] Um, would love to get your guys take on this sack. Uh, how do you feel about GTM? [00:07:26] Zach: Well, Phil, I'm gonna give you a short answer. Now I'm gonna give you a long answer. The first one, it's, it's political. For all of us that have been in the corporate space. Um, We all want to feel a sense of say and influence. You don't want to be that one team that is not doing go to market. Like what do we call that team that like, you know, like we just here. [00:07:52] And then there's a fear of like, Oh my gosh, if I'm not involved in the go to market in some shape or fashion. My job might be on the chopping block. [00:08:00] So I'm going to say that's the political piece. The second one is that a bit longer is that. When we think of go to market, every team is a derivative of go to market. [00:08:12] There's not one sole team, despite product marketers, we product marketers, we love to say we are the orchestrators of go to market. And, um, The maestro, I don't know why I said orchestras show you how cultured I am in classical music. And to a certain extent, yes, but then also no, because like product marketing can not run a go to market by itself, even though how much we say like, Hey, we're critical, like you need sales to help, like, Execute on it. [00:08:53] You need product to help build upon it. You need marketing to bring awareness I think where product marketing is helpful [00:09:00] is that they can kind of pivot and play And get perspective from different areas And I know we're going to talk more about like the influence piece but helping to bring the picture together So as gab said before the maestro of go to market, but the maestro doesn't mean that we are the go to market [00:09:19] Phil: What do you think, Eric? [00:09:20] Eric: Oh, I got to take care too. So I'm relatively newer in software, been about three years, spent the, the other good chunk of my work life in more of like a, a consumer environment and then in a manufacturing, large fortune, whatever number company, and, uh, Um, when I came here, that was the first time I heard go to market and very much like what you said, it was owned by like all of these different things, but you saw it on every product marketing job description. [00:09:56] It wasn't in like a lot of other job descriptions if you, if [00:10:00] you looked at them. Um, and I think like a lot of things, when words are a little bit buzzy. And they don't necessarily have a meeting to people outside of the group they're intended for. They get inflated and, and just no one really knows what they end up meeting. [00:10:18] I think that's in a world we live in now where it's like, you could ask 10 people, what is the definition? And you'd get 11 different responses. Um, but I think like, there's also, this is my opinion, but I think there's like two delineations. There's like going to market and then there's a go to market strategy. [00:10:37] And like what Zach said, like you can't go to market by yourself. That's crazy. I mean, just like a CEO can't go to market by himself unless he somehow knows how to build tech. And do all the business stuff and sell and yada, yada. So I think there's a point where you got to delineate that in particular, like there's a strategy, which we're building, which will likely maybe [00:11:00] go into product marketing or a high level revenue role. [00:11:05] And then there's all of these pieces that we have looked at and said, these are our resources, right? This is the, these are teams as our army, whatever now, and you want to give it to actually go to market. And so I think there just has to be like that. You know, someone, everyone, every organization has to own go to market, like one function. [00:11:27] And then all of the people who make up going to market need to just realize like, this is my part to play. I got to own this for us to be successful. And I just think it's, we're not, we're not there right now. It's more of a, like, everyone needs to own, go to market instead of like, everyone needs to own your part of the go to market. [00:11:46] Phil: Yeah, I think that's a really good way to put it. Gab, I'm curious to like, get your take on like, [00:11:50] Who is Responsible for Operationalizing GTM --- [00:11:50] Phil: who do you think is responsible for operationalizing GTM? Like that's where like the rev ops and the sales and the marketing ops folks, they [00:12:00] are trying to like take over GTM by saying GTM ops, like. Instead of marketing ops, it's GTM ops. [00:12:06] And there's like some merit to that because like you guys have just said, it's not a single functions responsibility for going to market, like there's a messaging and a strategy piece to it. But then there's like, all right, how do we get that into the wild? Like the product marketing team isn't always the folks in like the push notification tools or the messaging tools and deciding when's the best time to push that message out. [00:12:29] Like it's, it's. It's a bit of a shared responsibility, but who do you think is responsible for operationalizing that strategy? [00:12:37] Gab: That's a good question. And to be honest, if we just go back to like, what is go to market, I feel like it's, at its source, it's like a way for marketing and sales to stop working in silos, right? At least this is how I kind of understand it. Yes. A hundred percent. It's getting way blew up out of proportion, but I still think that if we You know, we're always going to come up with new terms or associated in some specific [00:13:00] concept or processes. [00:13:01] Uh, but who basically should appropriatize it? I feel like, you know, everyone has to put their, their hands into the work. Everyone has to work and collaborate together, but PMMs should be the one with the ownership. And the reason why I believe that is, The role is evolving, right? Yes. It's it has its identity crisis. [00:13:22] This is why we started the pod This is a big research project. We've been we've been working on by having all of those experts on but Ultimately a big output of our role is feedback loops How quick do we understand that do we have the right signal that this potential campaign could be working? so Uh, an example is if we're trying to push something, we're going to be testing at smaller scales if it works. [00:13:49] And when we have the signals that it worked, then we can just leverage all of the org, marketing ops, sales op, everyone together to just make sure, okay, can we push that in direction where [00:14:00] everything makes sense? So if you have, again, the maestro that is able to follow everyone and making sure that everyone on this end of strategy, understand the execution tactic behind it. [00:14:11] The result is you have someone who might not be seeing as doing impactful work behind the scenes because like, let's face it, a maestro is just someone waving a wand, but it's so much more complex than that. So you need someone to have that feedback loop. You need someone to have that ownership. And if something fail, it's because either they didn't take enough time doing the strategy or the execution project management part is just, uh, it's Um, you know, not up to the standard that they need to run, uh, their growth market. [00:14:43] Phil: Yeah, that's a really good point. Like [00:14:44] Prioritizing Product Marketing Requests vs Martech Roadmaps --- [00:14:44] Phil: when we were prepping for this episode, we were trying to figure out what is that best intersection between PMMs and folks that work in marketing operations and, and MarTech. And I don't know, I'm, I'm curious to like get your guys like career perspective on this, but like one [00:15:00] area where we've crossed paths a lot, or I have with. [00:15:03] PMMs is when we have these like competing priorities, like when a GTM launch is getting planned and it's colliding a little bit with ongoing Martech projects. Like, let's say we're revamping our product analytics tool, or we're launching a new like lead scoring feature in our marketing automation project. [00:15:22] Like it's not necessarily go to market stuff. It's important stuff for sales and enablement or whatever, but. Then PMMs are just like, Hey, we have a new feature we want to announce, or as a new part of the product, we want to announce like who gets to decide what should be the priority when it comes to like getting GTM out into the wild, knowing that like a lot of people have shit on their plate that isn't necessarily. [00:15:47] Focused on campaigns for GTM. I'm curious your take on this, Eric, I'll let you go first. [00:15:53] Eric: Yeah, man. I think. You know, and kind of piggybacking off Gab, I look at product [00:16:00] marketing as someone who's constantly looking for holes, looking for things that need fixed. And I think, like, it's up to us to look at it and say, okay, we've got three, four holes in the wall. We can only fix one at a time. [00:16:15] Which is the biggest hole or which is the one that's causing the most structural damage or which is going to make my wife happier when she gets home? and I think that's like very much what we have to be doing there. And so it's hard as a product marketer to be able to stomach, Hey, maybe this launch isn't the most important thing for us to hit those goals that we created at the beginning of the year, which hopefully there's a formula to all that. [00:16:40] And you know, they, they, they layer down appropriately. And assuming that's, that's, that's not the case. Even still, you know, you gotta look at things with kind of that unbiased eye and, and then look at the numbers and say, if we. complete this project in the timeline that, you know, has been stated. Here's the potential impact of that.[00:17:00] [00:17:00] If we decide to change course and switch it to product launch, for example, what's the impact on that? And I think there's always room to meet in the middle, but yeah, I think that's, that's our job is, is to look at things with that That I, and say, this is what's going to impact, you know, the business specifically to the goals that we've set out X amount of months ago. [00:17:22] Phil: Very cool. Yeah. It's been a couple of years now, but I, I took a reforge class on, on business strategy and like one of the components was product marketing. And, uh, I took this before I was at wordpress. com and we were pivoting our growth role to growth product marketing. So I was like, fuck, I've never done product marketing before. [00:17:40] I need to like learn some of the fundamentals here, but to your point, Eric, like one of the things they, they teach is like. Not every product launch or feature launch needs to be this big thing where we involve all of our own channels and we make a huge noise about it. Like sometimes we don't even want to like tell customers [00:18:00] about it or it's like this little thing we want to test out first. [00:18:03] And so when it comes to these competing priorities, like sometimes we need to look at goals. What else is on people's roadmaps and, and, and bandwidth and decide like how much noise we want to make about a certain feature launch, because it doesn't always have to be like a Superbowl pitch for a new little feature in the product. [00:18:21] Eric: Yeah. And like gab said, you know, like in his last answer, if we are the ones who are doing the operational stuff, it's up to us to delegate those resources and make sure that they're, they're moving in the right way. So you shouldn't, I mean, you shouldn't ever struggle with that. And even like with the launch situation, there's very few launches that you can't push the launch date. Right. So yeah, really, really, uh, you know, insightful take there. And I think you're, you're, you're working that angle the right way in terms of how you would work with a PMM in that situation. [00:18:55] Phil: Cool. Yeah. [00:18:56] Product Marketing and Marketing Ops Function as Organizational Translators --- [00:18:56] Phil: This whole topic of aligning teams together, I feel like is something [00:19:00] that Martek folks, marketing ops folks, and PMMs have a lot in common. Um, like we are very much both this like translator role within a company where like marketing adjacents, but we're not really marketing, right. I know that's kind of like your stick a little bit here, but, um, some of the folks in marketing ops went on this like big. [00:19:21] tirade last year about like, is marketing ops marketing. And you guys are all like, is product marketing marketing, but it's a fair question because like product marketers translate and bridge between marketing and product teams and similarly Martek folks translate between marketing and data teams and sometimes product teams also. [00:19:42] So as this like translator role, I'm curious to ask you guys, like, what's your best strategy to get everyone. Rowing in the same direction in your experience, Zach, I'll let you go first. [00:19:54] Zach: Yeah, um Eric set a point earlier. He said a phrase earlier and [00:20:00] I take beef with it. the word the word is delegate because the reason why I struggle with that is that product marketers historically don't have any influence on metrics. Like there's nothing like in that. It's a blessing in the curse because we can be like product adoption. [00:20:22] Not our problem, but, um, it makes it harder to get people on board. So like, and I, I take this from a frame of reference from when I was in sales. Um, if I'm selling to someone, I can't delegate to a prospect, you go do this. I need to a better way reframe it is that like, okay, like, let me understand what is it that you're looking to achieve? [00:20:49] So, like, let's get back to the example of, like, Phil, you brought up, like, hey, I, we, Marketing Ops is working on this whole new revamp that might [00:21:00] seem totally, like, astray from what the rest of the org's doing. If, let's say in this situation that it's like, this is a big launch and we need Marketing Ops, like, involved into it, and they're like, oh, we're doing this big, I'll, I'd stop and be like, okay, well, like, tell me more about it. [00:21:17] Like. Because I might be wrong. I might be wrong in thinking that what we are doing is a priority, but maybe there is something that you guys are doing that is closer aligned to the business than what this logic helped me better understand. And throughout that conversation, we could, you can tell me a few things where I could take a step back and be like, Hey, that's very helpful for me to know. [00:21:38] Like one example is that, um, and it goes back to Gabby mentioned earlier, it's like, you know, like shifting between different teams is that. When I was my first year in product marketing, um, I got put onto this tier two launch and a big component of this launch was this feature. It's a significant feature. [00:21:56] Sellers were talking about it. They're telling their customers about it. [00:22:00] Rest of the org was like, this feature is coming out. I was like, okay, this is great. This is going to be easy. I hit first meeting with the product manager. I'm like, Hey, I just want to get aligned with you. Here's the PRD. Like, this is my understanding. [00:22:12] Can you review and make sure we're aligned on it? He's like, yeah. He's like. This feature, this feature, this feature, unauthenticated scanning. That's not coming out. I was like, Oh, um That team and this team are saying it is coming out And he was heated he's like, oh this is not even a big feature Oh, I don't know why people are making a stink about it. [00:22:38] And I was just like Your team even said this was coming out and you guys have made it a big thing. So like That's just an example where like, here's like where different teams have different priorities and like one example where product marketing can be helpful in bringing that influence of people. [00:22:55] Okay, like you're saying it's not a big deal, but like, Hey, let's look at the market data right now. [00:23:00] Like customers want this. Let's look at the number of opportunities in Salesforce that are tied to this one feature. Let's look at this dollar amount. So you're saying this is not a big deal, but look at how much this might've influenced this business here. [00:23:13] Long story short, he wasn't with the business shortly after, um, conversation. But, um, that's just an example of like alignment is that, see, I think my approach for learning from sales is just really understanding like what the objectives of different teams are and just assume that like, we might, we might not know, Let's just assume like, let's just assume we're dumb and be like, okay, like I'm, we, I might be wrong and what you're doing is right. [00:23:41] Tell me, like, tell me more about this. I found that to be in a more effective way. [00:23:45] Gab: Zach said something interesting about like, yeah, we like influence. And I think it's important as, as you said that, you know, the, it's important to understand the goal of each different department and how we can help them win like individually. [00:24:00] So if you don't have a good relationship with sales. [00:24:03] Uh, starting to help SDRs and BDRs with their messaging, with what they're trying to achieve could be a good way to, you know, influence their relationship. Um, but I think it's often a question of, um, how do we position ourself internally? So whether you're in MarTech, whether you're a PMM, there's always that question that I feel like there's a huge comparison with those startups, either trying to create a new category or just sticking to one. [00:24:30] Right. If PMMs are marketers, if we position ourself as marketers and we're trying to create influence with sales, does it benefit us more to not be considered marketers because of the silo with sales, or does it benefit us less of like taking that role and being in that category or a different one, like being more considered towards product, for example. [00:24:53] And just asking those questions can ultimately influence your perception of you, of your role, and [00:25:00] also influencing like the relationship. If I tell you, Oh, I make sales like pretty, or I'm able to, uh, do whatever you want. Sales, please, please, please. I'll do a deck with you on the Friday afternoon. Then you're just opening yourself to doing a lot of that stuff that is ultimately moving you from your bottom line and the impact you can have. [00:25:18] So just to get back to Zach's point, it's very good to knowing like what they're trying to achieve, but try to ask yourself, what's their current perception of my role? And am I. Sticking out in the right category for the current understanding of my, my peers. [00:25:34] Phil: Yeah, it's a great point there. I like the thinking about how other teams perceive you. If you call yourself marketer versus being on the product team, that comes with a whole bunch of different, uh, preconceived notions there, [00:25:47] ​ [00:25:47] Phil: [00:26:00] [00:27:00] [00:28:00] but Zacky, you said in something else that was really interesting at the top of your answer. [00:28:04] You said. Like you pointed out to gab, like the product marketers sometimes lack influence, especially when it comes to deciding OKRs and KPIs, like company metrics, especially during like annual planning and stuff like that. And I feel like I echo that a little bit too with. Marketing ops folks, like we're closer to the data. [00:28:24] All part of our responsibility is like reporting on campaigns, but when it comes to being part of strategic annual planning and setting goals, we're often kind of left out of that seat at the table. Um, but [00:28:37] Who Should Own Product Adoption Metrics? --- [00:28:37] Phil: I wanted to ask you guys about. Product adoption as this, like, it's, it's usually an area of focus. [00:28:42] If you, if you're in a SAS or in a tech product company, how do we get more people into the product retention, activation, all of that fun stuff in marketing, there's like life cycle marketing that kind of owns some of those KPIs, the product team, depending on the feature, the part of [00:29:00] the product they're focused on, they own some of those metrics. [00:29:03] I'm curious to ask you guys, like, what do you think the role is of a PMM when it comes to product adoption metrics? Are you guys kind of responsible for some of those? And if not, like what is the right metric for a product marketer when it comes to just like, maybe you're sitting under marketing and you're working with the CMO or the VP of marketing and. [00:29:24] They're telling you, gab, like, this is your like goal, the metric that you're kind of laddering up to. Like, what does that look like for PMMs? [00:29:33] Gab: That's a good question. Um, I don't know [00:29:36] Eric: mind if I jump in gab? [00:29:38] Phil: Do [00:29:38] Gab: go ahead, go ahead. [00:29:40] Eric: All right. I wasn't sure if I was saving you. I wasn't sure if I was saving you there or not, but I feel like I just threw on my cape. But so I've got a, I've definitely got an opinion about it and a little bit of experience. So I definitely think without question. There should be a, like a one two [00:30:00] punch and, and both the product manager and the product marketer should be owning adoption. [00:30:05] Um, I also think that's going to translate from the discovery all the way to the, the actual launch of the product. And what I mean by that is kind of like this. So you think of a product marketer, their job is to position the product, message the product, and get that into the hands of the marketing teams who will promote one to many. [00:30:25] And the sales CS teams will promote one to one. So if you don't help with the product, then you're basically being handed a product. You have to learn all of the use cases and the reasons that you'd, you'd get it secondhand, right? That's the thing that come from product instead of your own interviews with your customers and so on. [00:30:45] There's a higher risk that your positioning is then going to suck because you've been given a product kind of sucks. And then you're giving. sucky positioning to your, your revenue teams and asking them to go get this product adopted. [00:31:00] So I think there's like, I just think it has to happen more where, you know, product marketing is brought into discovery and they are part ownership of, of the adoption. [00:31:13] And what I also think is really important to that too, is how do you set your goals for the product? So we had an integration with Gong and one of the things I learned was like, this should have been an adoption only. Type focus. And we hit our, we crushed our adoption goal, but we also had this like pipe gen goal associated to this in reality, like that is not what this launch should have been. [00:31:38] The goals should have been set differently. And that was my, you know, my role, the product marketer set the goals for the launch and not be so heavy on getting new customers to get excited about plugging gone, gone to something. It should have been our own existing customers. You know, that should have been on there. [00:31:56] So, um, instead of setting our goal at whatever [00:32:00] benchmark, I think we should have probably set that higher. And that would have come from earlier discussions with product, knowing what type of, you know, um, actual reality was going to hit when it hit the market. And so, yeah, that's, that's a lot of me talking, but I'm very bullish on being a one two punch where product managers really like lead all of the development. [00:32:23] But we're the, uh, we're the bird's eye view. Yeah. That brings in all of that good stuff from the market. [00:32:28] Zach: Assuming if product does develop new features. [00:32:32] Phil: Very [00:32:33] Eric: I'm not, I'm not struggling with that right now, but yeah, you're totally right. You're totally right. That's it. And that's another thing too, right? If, if they're struggling because they don't know what features to make, that's, that's, that's on you. Product marker needs to get, get in there, be that vantage point and bring in, I hate the word insights, but bringing those insights back to the product team that give them a compass to say, yep, this is what we should pick[00:33:00] [00:33:01] Zach: Replace ink. Replace insights with perspective. [00:33:08] Eric: or data since we're on [00:33:09] Zach: Data! Died. [00:33:13] Phil: I liked your, your simple definition of, of product marketing there, Eric. And at the top of your answer, where you're just like, we need to learn the product, we need to understand the use cases, how people are using this. And then we need to position this and figure out the right messaging for this. So teams and sales that are doing one to one stuff in, in marketing that are doing one to many can be better at reaching and convincing those audiences to, to check out our stuff. [00:33:38] Um, [00:33:38] Who Should Own Channel Messaging, PMMs or the Channel SME? --- [00:33:38] Phil: one part of that journey that I find interesting, that's kind of debated a little bit within teams. I'm curious to ask you about is the part where who should get the final word on messaging within the channels themselves. Should it be the PMM or should it be the channel subject matter expert? Like oftentimes some folks will say that the [00:34:00] PMM's role is to create that framework and the guidelines for messaging, but that ultimately. [00:34:06] The style and like the final copy goes to the channel SME because email is its own beast. Not every PMM is an expert in like deliverability and accessibility. Should there be more images, less images, but some folks say the opposite that channel SMEs should stick to just like the execution part of it, understanding the operational part, but the messaging should come from the PMMs. [00:34:30] What do you guys think? Uh, who wants to take this one? [00:34:33] Gab: I'll, I'll go with the guys are down with that. [00:34:36] Zach: Take [00:34:37] Eric: Yes. [00:34:37] Zach: Let 'em cook. [00:34:38] Eric: of the stash. Let it [00:34:40] Gab: Cool. [00:34:40] Zach: cook. [00:34:41] Gab: you can always just comment and say that was totally wrong. Don't listen to him afterward. No problem. Uh, it's collaborative work, right? I think it should always be collaborative work. Um, if PMMs are coming up with a condescending attitude and it's like, Hey, this is what you should be doing. [00:34:59] Please do it. [00:35:00] You're not going to make any friends and less friend in a company means less influence, less freebies and less help altogether in the rough times. Um, I would say in terms of final say, ultimately, if, if what you're trying to get is having your messaging to resonate, having your message to hit the mark, I feel like the final say should go to, uh, the PMM. [00:35:25] However, I don't think this me should just. [00:35:32] I think PMM should have the guidelines, should find frameworks, and I think we, kind of a hot take, we rely too much on frameworks, ultimately it's a question of input with data, you work with it, you test things out, you bring market context into it, and then you get the outputs that you want to test. But it's also, um, it's also a question that ultimately I think PMM should even dwell into the copy should get their V1 because [00:36:00] a messaging document when you created it, ultimately you should by yourself be able to write a copy, even if it sucks, but at least get a V1 and then give it to someone who super good in writing meta description or paid ads, whatever else you're going to be using. [00:36:15] But then it becomes a collaborative work. This is what I have, because I did that research, I understand that context, and I bring it back home. But then, if, like, someone very, very good in email marketing is telling you, no, it doesn't work because X, Y, Z, you're able to work with that person. You're able to understand why it doesn't work, and then just apply on the law and their expertise. [00:36:35] You should be able to work between yourself and collaborate. So, I think if we have to really put a scope in one person learning it, Should be the PMM, but I think the impact and collaboration of the subject matter expert is crucial in that case. [00:36:51] Eric: Can I give an alternate take? [00:36:52] Phil: Yeah, go for [00:36:53] it. [00:36:53] Gab: Go ahead. [00:36:54] Eric: We talked to Devin Reed yesterday and he gave me some clarity here, so I want to speak my piece. I [00:37:00] totally agree if the message, if we're talking message, and for those who aren't as nerdy as me, there is a difference between the message that we give internally and the copy that you see on websites and content and everything else. [00:37:14] Um, so I disagree with Gab. In the sense of the copy, I think should go to the channel expert, but the message should definitely be the product marketers. And so, for example, um, keep doing things that work. That's the message, right? But I want that head of content or that email, you know, guru or our copywriter to be able to say, pour some gas on it, right? [00:37:41] Saying the same message, just a completely different language. Or again, keep doing what's working. Champ, right? Like I want to be able to give that ownership if that ownership is in the in the organization Because of course we know that startups not everyone or [00:38:00] not. Everyone's has those resources So it may have to fall back on you the product marketer to write that copy But I think the final message is PMM If you've got the experts who can write the copy and make it make it good you should And I do hot take think everyone who calls themselves a marketer should know how to write. [00:38:22] Gab: A hundred percent. I agree with that, but I don't think we [00:38:25] Zach: ooh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna let 'em cook. [00:38:29] Gab: let you jump in, but I don't think we disagree because I also believe that like subject matter experts should own the final copy. But ultimately, like let's say you have a shitty ICP, right? And it tells you to add AI power on every single sentence. [00:38:42] Well, it's going to be hard to kind of translate that like that messaging that might be unclear because the ICP isn't defined because you, you have a bunch of problem with shareholders, if you aren't able to come up with like a copy, taking into account everything that has been done top, uh, taught in a top down [00:39:00] fashion. [00:39:00] So I still, I think you just agreed with me technically, uh, but the PMM should come up with like our first copy. Uh, to kind of showcase, well, I started with that positioning, that messaging, and then that copy. Please, let's make it work to get the best results we can via email, SEO, whatever the channel we're using. [00:39:20] Zach: one one point I want to add, and this is going to introduce kind of a, a missing piece that I think we over like some of us overlook in product marketing, is that. You can write the best words in the world, but if the product doesn't support what's being said, then it makes it so much harder to sell it. [00:39:45] Because, like, we as product, yeah, yeah, Vaporwave, like Gabby said it best, is that people are like, oh, this, this, this sounds amazing. Then you go to the theaters and you watch The Joker 2. you're[00:40:00] [00:40:00] Gab: He has a beef with that movie. [00:40:03] Zach: And then you're so disappointed The marketers the marketers brought you in this seat But Joaquin did not deliver Like you see that could be an excuse. So I think it's like messaging can be great But the product has to support what we're saying, too [00:40:20] Phil: I feel like the users who watched it early enough. convinced that all the trailers and stuff the marketers did To not like pay to put your butts in those seats and watch that movie so that was a bit serpendigious there because Yeah, I I didn't even bother watching that because of all the noise and the negative press about it [00:40:41] Zach: Yeah, I was like, Oh, let me add her and I saw the next I was like, Oh, I'll wait till it gets on HBO Max and I'll watch it. [00:40:49] Phil: I feel like part of the the next question I wanted to ask is Like should be more like, how do you measure product effectiveness and what is a good product before you go to market and you start [00:41:00] messaging this stuff here. But since you guys are all PMMs, like one thing that is close to my heart and a lot of the episodes that we do is. [00:41:08] Testing and experimentation and doing incrementality analysis to see what was the lift on this campaign to revenue? Not simple ab tests where we're comparing like the color of a button but actually doing Control groups and treatment groups and like sophisticated analysis, right? So I wanted to ask you guys [00:41:27] How to Measure the Effectiveness of Marketing Messaging --- [00:41:27] Phil: How do we do this for messaging? [00:41:30] I've been part of companies where I've worked with awesome PMMs and some that were, you know, a bit out of touch with customers and the language they use. And a lot of folks use userlytics like tools that, um, in the absence of having the time or the ability to chat with real users and customers, they can. [00:41:50] They use tools like Userlytics, who are just like anonymous users, like random people outside of your ISP. And they give you like feedback on your [00:42:00] messaging. And I have a beef with that because like these, these people aren't part of your ISP, like they shouldn't have any say in giving you feedback on maybe that's a whole other conversation there, but let's stick to that question there. [00:42:12] Like I'll ask this to you, Gav, like how do we measure. The effectiveness of a new message. You just gave this great framework and you're guiding this me on like how to do this ad copy or this email copy. How do we measure if that worked or not? [00:42:28] Gab: Yeah, that's a good question. Um, I'm actually working on like researching that, to be honest with you. Uh, all about message testing, but I would say it's a lot about, and I think this is kind of a good opportunity for Martek folks and PMM to work together because it's all about data ultimately at the end of the day. [00:42:43] What we're trying to get is we're trying to see how the delta worked when we're testing this out for that target. So a big part of that is just the foundation. And I think any type of message testing you're trying to get your hands on and trying to [00:43:00] see an improvement should be done first Or target audience or ICP clear enough right now. [00:43:08] If the target is wrong, your data and all of your testing window will just be plain out wrong. You'll be unable to get any inside buzzword out of it. Um, and ultimately, like, I think this is a big challenge of PMMs today. Um, I'm currently running a research to PMMs, uh, and the average self score given out of five. [00:43:33] Is 2. 25. Um, which again, I'm not good in math, so you guys can just get back. But I think it was 65 percent or so. Now people are calculating and are wondering why is this guy working in marketing? He doesn't know how to calculate. But ultimately, that means that we understand that our messaging is just meh. [00:43:58] Like our messages are just [00:44:00] like that. And. The way that we're testing it internally, it's either, oh, you know, we know we should do it and we have a process to do it internally, but we have nothing to do it externally. And a big part of that is lack of framework, lack of clarity of your ICP, and lack of resource to just dedicate to testing. [00:44:16] Um, you need to have enough volume. Like everyone likes to throw around, oh, we need to do A B test, A B test this, A B test that. And again, I'm not, I'm not the good example with just the example I did on like the, the small calculation, but ultimately you need to have enough volume for things to make sense. [00:44:32] If you're unable to showcase that the delta is improving, if you're unable to, uh, mix the right qualitative with quantitative elements, mixing, this is the way I self grade myself, and this is actually the lagging indicators of the error. Replies, meeting, conversion, and all of that. Then you'll be, you'll be lost. [00:44:50] You won't have a map and you'll, you'll just testing for the sake of testing it without nothing to show for it. So that's basically, uh, my take on that. I think [00:45:00] message testing, like if you use a platform like winter, it won't give you the whole answer because it won't tell you what you should be looking for. [00:45:08] But if you already have, okay, so we have those. 3, 4, 5 message of where we want to test in terms of value prop, a hundred percent. If you can put your hands on the ICP, it's data that is showing money and can, uh, you know, spare you a lot of political discussion on who has the law that's voicing influence internally. [00:45:27] Phil: Zach, it looks like you want to jump in there. [00:45:29] Zach: Yeah, I was gonna I was gonna add on my gap. I really love that point around like a B testing because we had a previous conversation with this with Julian. Um, Savage for like last season and I think this is a PMM thing. It might not be a PMM thing, but a lot of us in PMM, we say we're data driven. So, meaning, you give us access to a Salesforce dashboard, we are automatically data driven. [00:45:56] It's a given, like, and [00:46:00] sometimes, we don't know, sometimes some of us don't know what we are looking for. You put up, like, a SQL dashboard, like, we don't know what we might be assessing. So, to that point where, like, uh, A leader might say like AB test. I can give an example. I was working with one client and we were talking about partner sourced opportunities And I pulled up a stat and I said here like team like I want you guys to understand Right now like You guys are pulling in about a 30 percent win rate to partner sourced opportunities equivalent to Deals that The sales teams bring in house and then, um, the, the partner, the partner, the partner of like program manager. [00:46:49] She's like, look at me. She's like, yeah, that seems right on par. I don't see a problem, but we're doing well. I was like, that's, that's interesting here. I want to introduce a new another [00:47:00] because I think this is the missing piece of context. We love to say data, but we need to give context. And that's what it means to give our favorite buzzword is insight. [00:47:09] It's a context. I was like, well, let me, let me finish real quick. Here's a news. Here's a new study that has come out from GTM report from this past year that said that partner source opportunities should see about a 50 percent higher win rate than inbound source option. Because the insight being is that. [00:47:30] Because it's a partner working closely, that halo effect should influence. So help me understand here, what's going on here. And then her jaw just dropped. And it was just like, and that created an opportunity of like, okay, let's investigate this. And I think that's the biggest takeaway is that, like the one question to always ask, whenever someone says, I'm running a test, I need to find data. [00:47:59] This [00:48:00] one question will make you sound so smart that Phil, you can just take off your glasses and be like, yo, look, I'm like, like, I don't know, but if they're prescription, keep them on, but like, you can just take off your glasses and be like, look, you know, like, what are we looking to understand from this test? [00:48:15] Like, what are we, what are we evaluating? And just be quiet. And just, and then if we know, if the person knows, they'll tell you, but if they don't, then it's maybe we shouldn't run this test because we don't know what we want to get out of it. Yeah. [00:48:29] Phil: Very cool. Love the point about context there. And, uh, like the, the analogy there for marketing ops folks is like a dashboard is only as powerful as your ability to understand the data. Behind the dashboard and where it came from. And what is the source of it? Like, is it a Google analytics source dashboard? [00:48:47] Because a lot of sampling issues there. Is it actually coming from amplitude? Like there is a lot of context to data. So I really liked that point, Zach. Um, Eric, I'll ask you one question. I know you have to run a bit earlier. Um, [00:49:00] So [00:49:00] Boldness in Messaging and Promoting the Benefit of the Benefit --- [00:49:00] Phil: I wanted to ask you about boldness and product marketing. Uh, you guys on the show, um, uh, we're not marketers. [00:49:07] It great example of like embracing strong, polarizing opinions, uh, that can ignite real engagement too often. I think messaging. It's like watered down, overly safe, the same everywhere, especially in B2B, like AI powered, supercharged, streamlined insights, like a quick look at most landing pages in B2B. [00:49:27] Every tech does the same thing. Like it's so hard to understand what the hell a product does when you look at their landing page. How do you guys feel about this concept of Promoting the benefit of the benefit. Like it's a couple of folks on the show that talked about that. Like not automating invoicing for QuickBooks, but helping you sleep better at night and taking over the shit that you don't want to be doing every day. [00:49:49] How do you guys feel about that? [00:49:52] Eric: Dude, I love it for, for one boldness, like, especially as a product marketer, there's so many different things, pricing, packaging, obviously [00:50:00] positioning, messaging, enablement, right? If you can do that in a bold way, you're going to stand out. You're going to be memorable for the audience that you're going for. [00:50:09] It's so underutilized. And I think product marketers are trying to be so logical all the time. That they forget they got a whole other side of their brain that they can tap into Um, and then to like your your direct question of the benefit of the benefit. I Absolutely love that. I'm ghostwriting a page right now, and I use that Actually specifically as our final value prop. [00:50:31] We we go that level and You know, I think it's super helpful And and to give you some context I used to work at a company Um, it was like a drop box replacement for people who do movies, TV shows, video games, right? Like large, ginormous files of content. And I learned that that was the messaging that resonated with like video editors. [00:50:57] It's like, I spend [00:51:00] 19 hours of my day trying to get this file to upload to someone across, you know, over in Switzerland so they can put this in the post. And It's not just like, hey, I want to save time. It's like, I want to actually live my life. I want to end work on a normal hour. You know what I mean? [00:51:20] And those things really matter to people and I think, um, You see that a lot in B2C. So, the people in B2B who are taking those swings, they're gonna see those benefits a lot faster than people who are just sticking, sticking with the status quo and everyone. Sounding the same. [00:51:38] Phil: it. Love the branding behind the show. We're not marketers. I feel like, uh, I listened to a lot of episodes and there's a lot of different like takes on, uh, that first question that you asked folks. Um, but [00:51:50] Are Marketing Operations Pros Considered Marketers? --- [00:51:50] Phil: I wanted to ask you as, as the, the last question before last question, marketing operations, like every time you've had to interact with that team, those folks are [00:52:00] marketing operations, folks, marketers, in your opinion. [00:52:04] Zach: No, they're not. [00:52:05] Eric: No, No, [00:52:06] Zach: Yeah. [00:52:07] Gab: I don't think they are. [00:52:08] Zach: Yeah, [00:52:08] Eric: Shout out, shout out Maddie [00:52:10] Zach: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [00:52:14] Phil: here, not marketers. [00:52:16] Eric: Yeah, y'all are data, data wizards. That's what y'all are. [00:52:20] Zach: Yeah. [00:52:20] Gab: I think wizard is a good term. Like every time I work with MarTech focus, it's always like, how the hell did you do that? And I was just like [00:52:27] Zach: Yeah. [00:52:27] Gab: crazy. I don't know. It was a good impression. [00:52:31] Zach: you can, you cannot talk to a marketing ops person like a marketer. Like I've heard some conversations that's a fly on the wall and it's like, Oh, I want this insight. I want that insight. I want this. And I was just like, this isn't a Pinterest board. Like [00:52:48] you're making no sense. What is this story you're trying to understand? [00:52:54] Phil: I love it. I love the consensus there. Boys have been super fun conversation flown by a little bunch [00:53:00] of topics we didn't get into. Um, but, uh, last question we like to ask everyone on the show is that, uh, what is It's like happiness question. Um, [00:53:08] Work Life Balance Strategies From Top Product Marketers --- [00:53:08] Phil: you're a bunch of product marketers. Obviously you're also podcast hosts, your entrepreneurs, consultants. [00:53:13] Um, some of you are also dads, uh, rollerbladers. We've got some boxers, a bunch of Christmas fanatics, journalers, home chefs, like there's a bunch of different hobbies. Clearly you guys have a bunch of shit going on. Uh, like I said, one question we ask everyone on the show is like, how do you remain happy and successful in your careers and how do you find that balance between all the things you're working on while you're doing it? [00:53:35] Staying happy. I'll go to you first, Eric. [00:53:38] Eric: One, I'm really starting to stop doing the things that don't give me energy at work. Um, trying to work on, you know, focusing my personal business around things that I enjoy with people I enjoy. And then, you know, y'all will catch me every, almost every day of every weekend from last weekend till [00:54:00] Christmas, doing awesome Christmas stuff with my son, when my time with old son. [00:54:04] Right. So like that right there is my key. And then one little tip, delete slack off your phone. [00:54:10] Phil: Hmm. Very powerful tip. [00:54:14] Eric: Do it right now. [00:54:16] Zach: Listen, before you do, listen to our episode from this past season where we had a very friendly heated debate about this. I [00:54:24] Eric: Delete it. [00:54:26] Zach: keep it, keep it within context. [00:54:30] Phil: Zach, you're up. What's your take on this? [00:54:32] Zach: Yeah. Um, for me, like I I've shared this before is that, and you might have seen this on LinkedIn stack. I really love rollerblading. I picked it up a few years ago, and it's just like, yeah, it's, it's, um, it's quite a sight to see because when people see me on rollerblades, they're like, yo, this is a pretty big dude on rollerblades right here. [00:54:51] Like, what's he been through? Um. [00:55:00] And it's very, it's very relaxing. It's a good way to like, kind of shut off my mind. And just because I find like with work that we're doing, I'll be, it's very fun work, but it's very easy to build tunnel vision and just keep this always on mentality, because as you said, Phil, like we're managing this podcast, we got families, we got, um, we got our own endeavors we're building to as well. [00:55:25] So I really just love that. Quiet time itself to just kind of unwind and kick it [00:55:31] Phil: So you're completely unplugged. Like you're not listening to music or podcasts when you're, when you're blading [00:55:37] Zach: No, i'm listening Just emphasis on silence. No, i'm i'm no i'm always listening music even back when I was in san francisco There was a friday night skate that we used to do back in the day It was like a 12 mile loop around the city and we used to like hit the street tunnels Like we were you know, we were in it, but you can't do that here in bloomington, minnesota Especially with all the snow on the ground [00:56:00] You gotta put the skis on for that [00:56:02] Phil: Yeah. Bring us home. What's your take on this? [00:56:05] Gab: Yeah, I mean, um, a big inspiration of balancing the two has come from Zach because he kind of introduced me to, to some stoicism notion, but more importantly, like just gratitude, right? It's so easy to either always looking for like having fun. And I very much relate to what Eric said in terms of like, am I spending time on work that energize me? [00:56:27] I like to have the fun meters and I apply it personally, not publicly to my clients. Like, Oh, This one is a five, this one is a two. And trying to work towards towards the, the most fun. But it's also that life is not always fun. That's okay. And I'm very grateful to, you know, that the work of the podcast doesn't feel like work. [00:56:48] So to me it's just a way to take my minds off things. And I think one of the big, one of the best ways, the fact that we are very, very close, the three of us talk every day and we're very open [00:57:00] also on how we're feeling. Either on a personal life, either on our fractional, uh, journey, either on, on the pod or whatever happened, whatever happens. [00:57:09] Um, so to me, it's, you know, knowing to have a strong support system around me, knowing that I can, you know, I'm, I'm very privileged into what I'm, I'm dealing with, uh, the fact that I have, like, Basically, uh, a lot of, um, hiking path, like two minutes away from my, from my house when I can just walk in the wood with the dog, like, this is my best way to take my minds off things like listening to a podcast or just straight, uh, silence with just nature is, uh, is a good way for me to just take my minds off things. [00:57:43] Phil: Awesome for, uh, three really awesome perspectives there. Last note. There's that. [00:57:48] Zach: yeah quick quick question. Um, you can say this after after the conversation over but who said there were a home chef [00:57:55] Gab: Eric, [00:57:56] Phil: Eric. Okay. So, [00:57:58] Zach: Where else are you gonna cook?[00:58:00] [00:58:02] Eric: In Vermont, at our Airbnb. I heard you like the chicken. [00:58:06] Zach: Well, the AirBnB is a home too, like [00:58:12] Phil: I like the home chef distinction because it's like, I'm not a line cook at a restaurant or like part time at a restaurant. [00:58:20] Eric: not whipping wings at Buffalo Wild Wings anymore. [00:58:24] Zach: I'm a yo, Chili's, tap me in, I'm a yo, I'm a Chili's chef [00:58:28] Phil: Love it. Boys. It's been super fun. Um, any, uh, anything you guys want to plug on the show? If I was going to share out, uh, Link to the podcast, even folks that are kind of like adjacent to PMMs. I think there's a ton of value. Awesome guests that you've had on the show. Anything you want to plug before we go? [00:58:43] Gab: can, you [00:58:44] Eric: check us out on LinkedIn for funny memes. And if you want even more funny memes that we don't share on LinkedIn, follow us on Dying for Influence. It's a newsletter to help you gain influence at your org. [00:58:54] Phil: Nice. Love [00:58:55] Eric: laugh on Friday mornings. [00:58:57] Gab: The pod, the newsletter, the website, check us [00:59:00] out. And again, even if you're not a PMM, it's a very good way to understand the role, understand basically having empathy for the role, whether you're selling to them or whether you're collaborating with them or whether you want, um, check us out at We're Not Marketers. [00:59:14] Zach: But if you believe, but if you believe product markers are markers, you probably don't want to listen to it Don't, don't [00:59:23] Phil: It's been super fun. [00:59:25] Gab: Thank you. It was, this was great. [00:59:26] Eric: Phil. See ya.