Duke: All right, Corey, what are we chatting about today?
CJ: All right, duke, , today we're, talking about what we're
gonna do next, and that sounds fairly ominous, but it is not.
Duke: Wait, what we're gonna do next?
CJ: Chasing not what we are going to do next.
In case folks are getting the wrong idea, though, we might clickbait the title,
Duke: Yeah.
CJ: but what are we collectively beyond the two of us on this podcast going
to do next when it comes to the future of work and how AI plays a part in it?
Duke: Yeah.
It is a bit of a scramble right now, isn't it?
I mean, I feel that way
CJ: No same, right?
There's just so much happening in every single segment and area that you
look , and it's hard to keep up with all of it, but you do feel that undeniable
push of progress, like something big is happening, but you don't really know what.
Duke: Yeah, everything's changing, but what do we do?
But what can we do like,
CJ: Right, right,
Duke: it's not like it didn't just change and stop.
You know what I mean?
It's like changing as we go.
My focus right now is people who want to get into the ServiceNow
world, what do you tell 'em now?
CJ: right.
Duke: And I think there's a lot of misunderstanding about what are still
useful skills versus what are skills that you're gonna leave to the AI.
And I don't have an answer by the way.
Lemme just be clear that up right up front, I don't have an answer,
CJ: You thought we were experts on this?
Duke: yeah.
Yeah.
What I'm going on though, like my gut feeling is that if I was starting today,
I would still learn all the things we had to learn five, 10 years ago.
I'd still learn about task, learn about.
Building custom apps, even the hard old fashioned ways.
Before we had all these studios, I'd learn about all the component pieces and
I'd learn a process, or two, and then at least I would have some inkling of
what I was asking the AI to do if indeed we're going to exclusively AI builders.
CJ: Yeah.
Duke, I think I agree with you.
I'd still, get the ITIL foundations.
certification first and then do everything else that you just said.
It's only a three day or two day class , but I just feel like it gives
a really great bootstrap into service management that is incredibly important
if you're gonna follow this career path.
Duke: So you're still saying go for ITSM if for a process area.
CJ: I'm a bit biased because it's, where I started.
But what I do think ITSM gives you is The service management part.
And I think every other process, while they don't have SM in the
acronym, they're all service management or most of them anyway.
But they don't explicitly state that.
So going through the ITSM gives you, a foundation into service management
itself, which allows you to pick up some of those other processes easier.
Duke: Yeah.
For me it's, think ServiceNow is legitimately so wide now that you
can, you don't necessarily need that.
ITSM.
Deep knowledge in order to be useful in this space.
CJ: Yep.
Agreed.
Duke: easier than ever to sidestep it, but it's just the
ubiquitousness of of the ITSM content.
Like how do you teach somebody about UI policy?
Well, you pull up the incident form and say, wouldn't it be cool if
this field on the incident form was mandatory if this thing was checked?
And it's every single example gets pulled from ITSM because that was
the thing that everybody started on.
And so.
It's handy to at least put that under your belt as a beginner, just
for the absolute glut of domain knowledge that's out there, and that
that domain knowledge was established before ServiceNow got to it, right?
ITIL had an old white beard before, before ServiceNow was even a thing.
But on every other area, ServiceNow has put its touch on it.
CJ: Correct.
Duke: Oh wow.
This got away from AI in a hurry.
CJ: Well, but so, but maybe it didn't
but maybe it didn't Duke, When you think about it, because what we're saying here.
Is that even, though AI is gonna be ubiquitous and is already getting
ubiquitous you still need to know the underlying thing that you're asking
AI to do, because how else can you get it to do the thing correctly or
know that it's being done correctly?
If you can't judge it like it is, you know what I mean?
Like you, you go from operator to manager, but you still need to know the
subject matter in order to manage it.
Duke: I remember the first piece of content I wrote, I put a little like
PowerPoint slideshow on beginners and ai.
And one of the people in the Economist was like, yeah, but
that's a stupid way to do it.
Critiquing the a, what the AI suggested, right?
CJ: Right.
Duke: And he was wrong in the sense that I went from nothing to a solution in
a five minute interval with Chat g pt.
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: But he was also right in the case that yeah, it was a stupid way to do it.
To do it.
And so I fear for the newer members of the community that are in that position,
the force of the ecosystem is towards.
Ask the ai, ask the ai, ask the ai, save yourself some time.
Get the AI to do it.
But it's only the people who fought in the trenches that can sense that good
way, bad way, or good way, better way.
just flat out wrong, like there's no such a thing as that.
CJ: Yes.
the hallucinations.
And I, do think, do that while AI will help, folks who are new
to this get onboarded quicker.
I think it will help the folks who are already pros at this so much more.
And I, said this when I was in the Creator Con keynote a couple years
ago, AI helps me, 10 x my skillset, a lot easier than I think it helps you
know, someone new 10 x their skillset.
Now if you think about that, and my skillset is already 10 x someone
new, So now AI has just given me an almost insurmountable edge
over someone new in the ecosystem.
And what does that mean?
I don't know.
You know what I mean?
Like I don't know what it means, but I mean, I think it's good for me.
Is it good for the ecosystem?
Maybe?
I don't know.
Mm-hmm.
Duke: as a few of you already know, I am no longer a freelancer.
I actually took a job at mothership.
And that question came up at an internal conference legit?
Is AI gonna replace us or not?
And one of the very, very, very, very senior leaders
basically said, okay, let's just assume that AI makes everybody five x better.
Everybody just gets a five x uplift.
And he says, great.
Maybe now,
maybe now we'll be able to meet the requests that are coming in.
CJ: Right.
Duke: in terms of the things the, market wants.
And so the impression there was no,
the amount of work anybody can do is just gonna be magnified, but there's
still a lot more work than there are, resources to, fulfill it all.
But you're right, it's still like, , take somebody who's just a middle of
the pack developer outta all those people and they get a five x uplift.
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: But that means the difference between that person and a beginner is
five times more than it used to be.
CJ: Yes,
Duke: Maybe.
Maybe.
I don't know.
I don't know, but like, maybe I'm not thinking about this, right?
Maybe I'm not thinking about this right?
I don't know.
CJ: That's what I think, dude.
I mean, if I'm already 10 x, a, new person, right?
let's say , you can get 10 times the value working with me, then you can.
Working with someone new to the ecosystem.
And that's probably an understatement.
Honestly.
It's probably, it's probably more than that.
And I say that it sounds a little cocky, but it's kind of true.
Um.
Duke: Arrogant.
CJ: Yeah.
Whatever.
we're vibing with it.
But then, if you 10 x me, right?
Like now I'm a hundred x versus the baseline and then you 10 x the new person.
I still feel like that golf now is way bigger.
I don't know what the math looks like right When we was writing that
equation out, the golf probably, maybe on paper still looks the same.
It's not the same though.
It is not the same.
when you 10 x amazing versus 10 x, beginner.
It completely obliterates the scale.
Duke: Could we maybe do a thought exercise?
at the very beginning you would be like, that geometrically better.
But, but that only lasts a certain amount of time until they get
into like a five x baseline.
CJ: True.
Duke: So how can we think of ways AI could help a ServiceNow beginner?
CJ: Hmm.
Yeah.
Good question.
Duke: I would say it can't be you, the vacuum and the ai, right?
that's not gonna work.
You still need a mentor or a community.
You can ask to cross-reference the ai.
But I think like someone can still prompt the AI.
look at its output and try to interpret it.
Ask AI to explain it.
Ask it if it's sure.
And then ask a community, is this legit?
is this the right answer?
CJ: Yeah, so that's the thing, right?
When you're new to ai, I think you depend heavily on AI being correct or having a
way to confirm that the AI is correct.
And the question is, does that add more time to your learning process or less?
I wonder, does it make the knowledge that you get more durable?
I feel like for me it probably makes you better, even if it
takes a little bit longer, even though I'm not sure that it would.
And the reason I say that is because.
If you get knowledge and then you have to understand if that knowledge
is correct by cross-checking it, you're learning, And validating.
And that's kind of how you learn.
at least it's how I learn, right?
Like, troubleshooting is really the way that I've learned most concepts.
and the way that I learned them quickest and how they persist with me.
so I think of this as kind of like.
A newbie getting in and they start using ai.
They've got troubleshoot that teaching
Duke: yeah.
CJ: learning from
Duke: gotta do that anyway, right?
Like I
CJ: Well, do they?
Duke: everybody.
I think so, I'm still learning where I can trust the prompt
and where I have to be careful.
CJ: Sure.
Duke: I haven't got to the gut feel level of that yet.
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: I'm using prompts, I feel like everybody's gotta start
doing that as part of their job.
And so Maybe it is a productivity Tax on the newcomers.
Well, it used to be I, I just learned ServiceNow, but now
I've gotta learn ServiceNow in parallel with learning the ai.
But there's gotta be a way for AI to accelerate something else.
Like, oh, what's another example is you ever have those people that message you
on LinkedIn and they're like, Hey, can you send me a whole bunch of practical
examples for me to do on ServiceNow?
CJ: Oh yeah, absolutely.
Duke: can you tell me to build an app or can you tell me a whole
requirement of an implementation so I could do, it's like, wow, I really
appreciate that, that's what they want.
But that is a ridiculous amount of work that no, I'm not doing for you.
I'm sorry,
CJ: a lot of unpaid labor.
Duke: I don't mean to be rude, but you have no idea what you're
asking me to do here, but.
AI doesn't get tired, right?
CJ: True.
Duke: let's actually, okay, lemme pop open chat chip.
CJ: Yeah, I mean, 'cause typically what do you do?
right now I send them to, to developer do servicenow.com
or to now learning.
And I feel like between those two, know, there's a lot of practical exercises and,
teaching that, get someone on their way.
but then what do you do after that?
Right?
Because there is always an after that it's typically not
enough, especially when you knew.
I think what new people suffer from most is a lack of confidence more
than it is a lack of understanding.
And so even when they probably have enough knowledge and
understanding about the material to.
Get them going.
They probably still feel like they don't.
And so they're always looking for that next exercise or that next exercise
and something to validate that they actually know what they're doing.
And I think that's where those requests from, Hey, can you send me the blah, blah,
blah, blah comes from, and but that's a lot to actually create those exercises.
, Duke: We've never done this before, like read the results of chat GPT.
Okay.
So
CJ: All right, here we go.
Duke: I'll, I'll actually make a link to it and then people can.
You can do that, right?
CJ: Yeah, you can do that.
Duke: Okay.
So I basically said this might be a bad prompt, but we'll just, we'll see.
You are a service telling chat, GPT.
You are a ServiceNow trainer.
Explain an easy to understand example of what a script include is.
Once you're done, can you create a few exercises for me to do?
CJ: Okay.
Duke: what does a script include?
A script include in ServiceNow is like a reusable toolbox of code.
It's server side, JavaScript runs on the server, not in the user's browser.
You can define functions and logic once, then reuse 'em anywhere in ServiceNow,
business rules, UI actions, workflows, flow designer actions, et cetera.
And it helps you keep your code organized, reusable, and
easy to maintain on the whole.
Pretty close.
CJ: Yeah.
Yep.
Duke: Except your client callable as well.
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: server side.
Okay.
Everyday analogy.
Imagine you're building a house.
You have tools like a hammer saw on a drill.
Instead of buying a new hammer every time you need one, you keep
them in a toolbox and reuse 'em.
And ServiceNow, the script include is the toolbox.
Each function inside of it is like a specific tool.
Any part of the platform can open the toolbox and use this tool.
CJ: Fair.
Duke: Not bad.
Simple example, let's say you often need to calculate the number of days
between two dates instead of writing the same date difference code everywhere.
You can put it in a script include, okay?
And then they give what appears to be, well formatted script include,
don't necessarily like this example though, because it's like don't they
have the glide daytime query for that?
But anyway.
CJ: Man, time, date coding, uh, kryptonite.
Duke: Now anywhere in ServiceNow you can do, and it shows an example of writing
like summoning that script include, When to you use the script include when you
have complex logic that might be used in multiple places when you want clean
organized code instead of copy pasting.
Amen to that.
When you want a share functionality between business rules, amen.
Double amen.
Triple amen.
When you want a share functionality between business rules, UI actions,
flow designer, et cetera, okay, exercises, hello world toolbox.
Create a script include called My utils.
Inside it, create a function.
Say hello.
That returns, hello name.
Test it from a background script tells you, actually shows you two math helper.
Create a script.
I swear to God this was mine.
This is what I tell my students to build, is just put a bunch
of math functions into a script.
Include
CJ: You're mining your data.
Duke: Yeah, that's what you're welcome.
Chat chip.
Create a script include called Math helper.
Add to functions, add X to Y, multiply X and Y.
Test it from a business rule or a background script.
Date differences.
Again, no, don't do that as a beginner.
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: And then would you like me to give you step by step
instructions for the first exercise?
Jump straight to the next level, like making a script.
Include callable from client scripts via glide Ajax, which sounds better.
So that isn't bad.
CJ: No, it's pretty good.
Duke: I mean, it gave a decent explanation.
Enough to get you started, right?
Like it's not like you're gonna know.
The entire vital essence of script includes
CJ: Yeah, but let me tell you what that just did for me.
Even just listening to you read it right.
A great refresher.
Oh, what a script they include is,
even though I'm a consultant, even though I'm an architect, I'm still hands on.
Right.
I'm still building, I'm still writing code.
Right.
So I, I do, I use scripting clues a lot, but sometimes people get to a level where
we are Duke and, they stop writing code.
And they're more, advisory and they're more, you know, architect and
they're designing the solutions, but they're not actually building them.
But then they might need to.
And like, I don't think a script include is probably something
that folks, would forget.
But there are probably other things that folks might need a refresher on
that level of summary, but also detail.
Feels like something that would be really beneficial to someone
who is getting their sea.
Getting their sea wings again.
Is that a thing?
Sea wings?
I don't know.
Who's sea legs.
Thank you.
Who's getting their sea legs again?
Right?
You haven't been on the boat in a while.
You back on the boat.
How does this thing work?
Give me that in five minutes.
Five minutes later.
Oh yeah, that's right.
I remember this now, and now you're back in the saddle.
Duke: Oh, dude.
Okay, so
just for the giggles, I, said I'm a 15 year veteran of ServiceNow.
Tell me something about script Includes, I don't already know.
CJ: Okay.
Duke: Number one, lazy loading versus preloaded script includes.
Yep.
CJ: Did not know that.
All right.
We're.
Duke: Did you, did you know, here we go.
Assuming it's right.
So what we would do, take note of this, if you're a beginner, the first thing I
would do is try and understand this, then go ask my friend John Dahl, if it's right.
CJ: Yeah.
There you go.
Shout out to John.
Duke: shout to John.
Did you know you can control when a script include is loaded into memory by default,
most script includes are lazy loaded.
They're only parsed loaded the first time they're called.
But you can preload a client script by checking the client
callable box, even if you don't actually call it from the client.
CJ: Huh?
Duke: What, why?
This is the, the very next section, why should you care?
CJ: Yes.
Duke: If you have heavy classes that multiple things use.
Preloading can improve performance by avoiding multiple load calls.
Conversely, for rarely used classes, keeping them lazy, saves memory.
CJ: So, if you have a utility script that's being called by a lot of
different things, you might wanna check the client box anyway, so it
gets loaded into, , instance memory.
So it's already available so you don't have to have all these other
scripts that are gonna call the script.
Include, making those loads and having it, um, repeat over and over again.
Because I assume that if that client check box is not checked,
then a script will reach out.
It will then load the script, include, use the function, and then unload from memory.
That seems to be the implication there.
But by checking, yeah, by checking the client box, it doesn't unload, so you
never have to do all of those subsequent loads from the different scripts.
Duke: Yeah, so we'll have the link to this little conversation I had with
Chad Chip because there's like, there's like seven or eight of these things.
Some of 'em I knew.
Others are like, wow, this might be a little bit too out there for me.
But at any rate, I think what we're proving on the fly here is
that it can be a powerful learning tool if you, what would we say if
we just distrust it just enough?
CJ: Yes.
Duke: Like absorb it.
See if you can understand it.
Ask it to explain.
That's one thing I love about it, right?
You could just, you'd be like, no, explain it to me again.
Use a different metaphor like gimme editor exercise, and it will do
that tirelessly like a human is just gonna wear out with your questions.
CJ: Yeah, so that is the thing, right?
So if we're going back to like, how you use this to actually
help, you can incessantly ask it, to elaborate more detail.
Give me another one.
Focus on just only this thing, if you are persistent enough and creative enough,
you can use it as a personal tutor that targets your individual deficiencies and
your individual curiosity, In a way that you can't get from a mentor in a way
that you can't get from a teacher, in a way that you can't get from, practically
any other human that you're not paying, like, a lot of money to, to indulge you.
That is worth probably its weight in gold.
Duke: Okay.
Another experiment here.
it's one thing to just have a tool in the toolbox and just
say, what the heck is this?
Like a basin wrench?
First time I saw one of those.
What?
CJ: A who?
Duke: I used it.
Yeah.
But what about so another prompt I just did, I'm trying to learn ServiceNow.
Could you give a suite of common requirements?
People might have to deploy ITSM on ServiceNow.
I want to use these as stories to develop them on my PDI.
Is that a good prompt?
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: It's decent enough, I guess, right?
We could
CJ: Yeah.
Close enough.
Yeah.
And what I like about it right, is the pro, your prompt
doesn't have to be perfect.
Cla uh, chat, GPT and the other AI models too, right, are have, are
really good at interpreting your meaning, even when it's imperfect.
Duke: this is actually pretty hot, man.
Like really?
I didn't, I didn't expect it to be this good.
So.
So,
CJ: in real time, we are watching as the Duke discovers ai.
Duke: okay.
So it gave me the current affluent encouragement and a pat
on the back that chat, GPT does.
And then it says incident management stories.
Okay.
I'll just read the headings from there.
And auto assign incidents based on category priority calculation rule.
Hmm.
That already pre-exists, doesn't it?
CJ: Yeah, I mean, there's a whole like a, there's a whole module for that.
Duke: SLA for P one incidents, email notification for VIP
users Dynamic incident form.
If the incident category equals hardware display an extra field
called device serial number.
Okay.
CJ: Yep.
Duke: There're at least, simple things that you can apply
the tool knowledge to, right?
CJ: And allow you to build on them, which is good.
Duke: this got a whole other section for problem management, for change management.
Auto link incidents to problems, problem review, workflow, known error knowledge
base change management stuff, enforce cab approval for high risk changes.
that would be a deep dive.
Change management flows are crazy.
CJ: Oh man.
The new stuff though are, is great.
change models and approval rules.
That stuff is kick ass.
Duke: Uh, how new is change in.
CJ: Not like new, new, but new-ish, I guess.
La I don't know.
My, my concept of time is horrible.
Last year or two maybe longer than that.
I don't know.
For me last year or two is what it feels like.
Duke: Isn't that crazy?
Like last year was like five minutes ago without,
CJ: Yeah.
Yeah.
Duke: we've been on it so long.
Last year's, nothing.
CJ: Yeah, somebody's, when we release this dude, somebody's
gonna post a comment and it's like, yeah, no, that came out in Berlin.
Duke: Yeah, seriously.
Wow.
Even old timers like us get it wrong every once in a while
CJ: Yeah,
Duke: and we haven't met a quota for one mistake per year.
So.
CJ: working on it.
Duke: So this is actually pretty good.
So it, I mean, service request, catalog item, a new laptop request, autofill user
info, and a catalog item bundle request.
Man.
Have you ever used bundles in catalog?
CJ: Yes I have, but not often.
And probably only once.
Duke: Man, there's like a.
decade long gap between, I was just like, you ever read something and
it's like, oh yeah, that was a thing.
CJ: Right.
That's a long time ago, dude, that, that reminds me of Wizards.
Remember Wizards
Duke: I love wizards.
I like, I just broke my heart when they deprecated them.
CJ: yeah.
There's so much potential there.
They were buggy, but they were great.
If you can get 'em working.
Duke: Oh yeah.
I mean, messy too, right?
Like when you were, wizard page would transition to another, . It wouldn't have
the page name, it would only have a sis I,
CJ: yeah,
Duke: so we were like manually sewing these things together on their SI
society, but oh man, was it ever good?
Okay.
For those of you who weren't here for wizards, It was like a choose
your own adventure for the catalog.
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: So it would start off on a page and it would ask you a bunch of questions and
then based off the answers on that page, you can go to another page and another
page and another page and another page.
And the end points were a lot more flexible.
So it wasn't like, oh, you answered the questions and you get, either
a rhythm and an SC task or whatever thing the record producer is for.
The endpoint for this thing could be.
A record, like a record producer, or go to a knowledge article or go to some other
page, or just pull up a record or a list
CJ: Yeah, honestly, I, what it feels a lot like is a order guide,
but a self-contained order guide.
if that even makes sense.
I'm not even sure that that does.
I think, you know what I mean?
Like with the way that you land on an order guide, and
order guide has questions.
You ask the questions, and then it generates like, oh, based
on what you answered, these are the things that you need to do.
Except the wizard was like an order guide on steroids, right?
Because you can go through several iterations of that
before you finally needed to dump somebody off at a destination.
Duke: But I think where an order guide could say, okay, well we
met all 10 of these conditions and therefore run 10 rhythms off of it.
CJ: Right.
Duke: I think the wizard was like a single endpoint, but the fact you didn't
necessarily have to end at a task.
You could end it in knowledge article and it, I loved that.
I loved love, love, love, loved that.
But it's gone now, so.
CJ: It's somehow this is like, this just got like really relevant to
something I'm doing with a client, right?
Where we're working a lot on case deflection and just thinking about
that, a wizard of what you just described as case deflection.
All right.
So let's, let's walk through these questions, did you do a, did you do B?
Did three, did C happen?
Oh, let's go back to the, oh, see, didn't happen.
Or we're gonna go to seven, right?
Like, you know, and then ultimately, and here's your answer, and
you don't need to call anybody.
And Wow.
Mind blown.
Duke: You know what I think ServiceNow can do everything that wizard could do.
But better now
CJ: Yeah.
Virtual agent.
Yeah.
Duke: that Exactly.
That's exactly what I'm saying.
CJ: Yeah,
Duke: Yeah.
Or even whatever ai, right?
Even if
CJ: Well now assist the Naval virtual agent.
Right, which is kick ass.
Duke: it is.
Yeah.
CJ: you man, the best thing about it is that, all those long branching
conversations that you had to meticulously put together now
assist, abstracts a lot of that away.
So it makes things a lot easier to do.
Duke: Man, I gotta tell you, I gotta tell you, I gotta tell everybody, okay?
I've seen a
CJ: It just me and you talking about.
Duke: I've seen a lot of service catalog deployments in my time, and a lot of
good ones, but man is ServiceNow's internal service catalog experience.
So good.
So, so good.
It's amazing and, it's got AI search on it and I'm never that
far from whatever I need, right.
if I'm saying, where do I find this?
And it's like, oh, here's a catalog item for you to order it, or maybe you're
thinking about this knowledge article.
And it's never popping up weird stuff.
It's always the most relevant stuff.
CJ: Duke, two things on that right.
First thing that sounds like a great now on now for, uh, knowledge 26.
And the, but the right.
Duke: Sometimes it's the little thing like, how good is your service catalog?
CJ: That was my second point.
sometimes we get so enamored with the new and shiny that we forget
that it's the basics that form the building blocks of great experiences.
And a good no.
A great.
Service catalog experience goes a long way to framing how your end users view
ServiceNow as a product, as a tool that they can use, Because that's the front
door that most of them are coming in through, And if your front door is,
got gold and gilded and some, some of those nice grotesques hanging out and
all of that, like, you know, people are gonna feel like, yeah, this is great.
Versus if you go through the thing and you got to pull away the planks
in order to get in and all of that.
Right.
Like it just really frames the experience different.
Duke: Yeah,.
It does do AI really well.
you can tell, sometimes it's thinking and kind of like assembling an
answer versus, oh, here's a knowledge article with that term in it.
CJ: Yes.
Duke: I.
CJ: Like here, I know, like I got, I understood the meaning
behind what you, fed me, and.
Duke: Yeah, yeah.
CJ: And now I'm gonna give you something that answers that intent,
Duke: I think, I can't remember, this is like early on, so in my first few weeks
I had to, fly out to a team meeting and I come back and it's like, really important
to get your expense reports in, right?
And so it was like I was new and I'm like, oh, man, what, what was the
name of our expense report app again?
I think I just typed in how do I do this expense report, and then it's just
like, oh, you want to open this app?
And I think it was like a one click and open app.
CJ: That's awesome.
Duke: I can't remember.
I'm pretty sure though.
Anyways.
Anyways, so we got 35 minutes of record.
Let's try and summarize again for the new people, You gotta learn ai.
It's tough.
Everybody's gotta do it.
At least the prompting.
CJ: you gotta make this thing, man.
You your new best friend.
even though I think AI is insanely more valuable for folks who know the subject
that they're using AI for versus folks who don't, I think everyone needs to use it.
And, just because it doesn't make you as valuable as it makes me,
doesn't mean that it doesn't make you incredibly more valuable,
Duke: Right.
CJ: right?
Duke: yeah, there, there's probably gonna be a time where, instead of
you writing all this stuff out in a client script, you're just telling
it Build me a client script that does the following and I'll test it.
That's not too far away.
If not already here.
So maybe you are not actually building the configurations,
but who's going to tell it?
What configurations to build?
Who's going to review it and say, that was a good solution design.
And to do that, you have to understand the tools that the AI can work with.
CJ: Yeah, absolutely.
You said, , about the write me a client script and then thing I
have had AI actually write code for me and then formula format it
into a an XML , file that I could import directly into the instance.
Duke: Yeah, man.
I mean, there's all there's already two or three companies
out there that have building bots
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: already, right?
It's not new.
And even some of the,
CJ: Yeah, no.
I was like, yeah, no, absolutely.
But this is just straight like chat GPT, like nothing special.
No.
Duke: Like write me an XML, just like drop that into text and then
import into Service Now and boom.
Bob's your uncle, right?
But there's like some of the code tools that I have internally.
I can literally tell it, go build me this stuff in the in.
I'm not even on the instance, I'm just like, go build me this stuff
and it builds the objects for me.
CJ: Right
Duke: You know what I mean?
I don't have, it doesn't have that translation layer of save a xml.
It's like those XMLs are done built but I would've been useless if I
didn't have the 10 years of ServiceNow experience to like understand what
is the thing that should be built.
CJ: yeah, because look, this is something I've said, previously, , our job, In
this market, in this doing what we do with ServiceNow, our job is not to code.
It's not to build workflows.
It's not to do, any specific technical thing.
Our job is to solve problems.
And ultimately, if you don't know the problem, and if you don't know the
solution, if you can't recognize the solution, then it doesn't matter what
a, that AI can build it for you, right?
You gotta know how to tell it.
This is the problem I'm having, this is the solution I'm trying to get to, right?
This is what I think will work, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, so
how you get to the solution to a certain degree doesn't really matter.
But the solution needs to happen.
And I think sometimes, and I felt like, I felt like when I started on this, that
this was relevant, but as I continue, I'm not quite sure, but I'm gonna go anyway.
My point is Duke, is that a lot of the value that you bring to
this is being able to recognize.
When AI did the thing correctly versus incorrectly, the way I look
at that is the same way in which when I'm working for my client, the thing
that makes me valuable is knowing when the solution is coding versus
configuration versus process versus organizational change management, right?
Like, you know what I mean?
And.
Duke: but also like there's a whole gateway there of
should it be built at all?
CJ: Yeah, that too, right?
Duke: many conversations have we had with our customers that are just like,
Hey, listen, I know why you feel you need this, but there's consequences
of this beyond what you're seeing, what you're capable of seeing.
Right.
Let's try and find some other solution.
'cause that's one of the things I fear is that the distance between
asking and ai executing gets so short that they just cut out the devs,
cut out the experienced resources, and just like, build me what I want.
And then we just, all we make is a giant.
platform that makes shit to your applications at the speed of light.
CJ: Ha.
Duke: Yeah.
CJ: Yeah, yeah.
I couldn't put that better myself.
I totally agree.
I think that's exactly what you get, right?
Understanding, and context really needs to be present.
And you, are, we are as the people that knowledge,
understanding and con and context.
So
Duke: All right.
I have to go run and do something, so I think we're gonna have to leave it here
CJ: we'll leave it here man.
Hey, good talking to you Duke, as always.
And uh, still no outro.
Duke: still no outro.
Yeah.
120 something episodes.
All right.
Later.