WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:54.265 --> 00:00:54.985 . Duke: All right, folks. 00:00:55.015 --> 00:00:57.835 Today we have a very, very special treat for you. 00:00:57.925 --> 00:01:00.685 We are joined by our guest of honor, Mr. 00:01:00.685 --> 00:01:02.635 Paul, Charlie from Automate Pro. 00:01:02.875 --> 00:01:06.116 Paul, why don't you give a quick intro and tell us exactly what Automate Pro is. 00:01:07.660 --> 00:01:08.560 Paul: Good morning, Rob. 00:01:08.590 --> 00:01:09.490 Uh, delighted to be here. 00:01:09.490 --> 00:01:10.600 Thanks for having me on. 00:01:10.660 --> 00:01:12.340 Uh, super excited about this. 00:01:12.367 --> 00:01:17.357 so Automate Pro fundamentally, it's a test automation and DevOps solution. 00:01:17.357 --> 00:01:22.547 Solution targeted specifically at ServiceNow, and our vision of what 00:01:22.547 --> 00:01:28.763 Automate Pro was all about was to create the world's leading platform to enable 00:01:28.763 --> 00:01:35.183 customers of ServiceNow to release and upgrade as quickly and easily as cost 00:01:35.188 --> 00:01:37.073 free and as risk free as possible. 00:01:37.795 --> 00:01:39.055 Duke: that sounds like something I want. 00:01:39.355 --> 00:01:44.415 Um, and I, I'm excited about this because Paul and I have, done a 00:01:44.415 --> 00:01:48.135 showcase on Automate Pro before if you wanna actually see it happen. 00:01:48.315 --> 00:01:50.895 We'll have a link in the description below, to the video. 00:01:50.895 --> 00:01:52.425 Paul and I did a while back. 00:01:52.425 --> 00:01:53.765 It should be still a good video, right Paul? 00:01:54.135 --> 00:01:55.755 I mean, it's a couple years back now. 00:01:55.920 --> 00:01:57.030 Paul: It was a few years ago. 00:01:57.120 --> 00:01:58.110 Enjoyed doing that. 00:01:58.150 --> 00:02:02.140 , it was a great video things have moved on obviously since then, but a lot of the 00:02:02.200 --> 00:02:03.880 while all of that content's still valid. 00:02:03.940 --> 00:02:05.860 We just do it even better and even faster now. 00:02:06.295 --> 00:02:10.375 Duke: Yeah, I can't, like, this is why, another reason why I was dying to get you 00:02:10.375 --> 00:02:16.262 on the podcast because the whole concept of testing is evergreen because basically 00:02:16.262 --> 00:02:18.512 nothing out there is making it easy. 00:02:19.592 --> 00:02:23.192 I'll just go ahead and say it, like is a really scaled, 00:02:23.612 --> 00:02:25.232 like, has everybody really got. 00:02:25.652 --> 00:02:29.402 The, the sum of their platform in a f ready, and they're pushing 00:02:29.402 --> 00:02:33.228 that button every release just to make sure, or is that an illusion 00:02:33.233 --> 00:02:34.388 that we've built for ourselves? 00:02:35.553 --> 00:02:40.503 Paul: I think the, the reality is that people are, are struggling to make it do 00:02:40.508 --> 00:02:43.983 exactly what they want it to do and give, give them the coverage that they need. 00:02:44.373 --> 00:02:48.183 I think there is, there is a place for a tf I think certain, uh, 00:02:48.183 --> 00:02:51.943 smaller ServiceNow customers may find that, gives them what they need. 00:02:52.353 --> 00:02:58.970 Where we really find the white space, for Automate Pro is, especially with large. 00:02:59.038 --> 00:03:03.568 quality focused, I'm gonna call 'em, or quality oriented organizations. 00:03:03.658 --> 00:03:07.048 So you, you've got the Rolls Royce of the world, the Toyotas, those kinds of, 00:03:07.048 --> 00:03:09.328 where quality is inbred in their, brand. 00:03:09.707 --> 00:03:12.527 but also then you've got the, organizations where quality 00:03:12.527 --> 00:03:14.177 is, you know, is not an option. 00:03:14.182 --> 00:03:19.427 So highly regulated organizations, they have to follow strict processes 00:03:19.432 --> 00:03:24.047 around testing and verification of any change they make to 00:03:24.110 --> 00:03:25.340 their systems, their platforms. 00:03:25.340 --> 00:03:26.240 And that includes ServiceNow. 00:03:27.038 --> 00:03:28.958 CJ: so what about quality for the rest of us, right? 00:03:29.138 --> 00:03:31.508 Like, um, you mentioned folks like Toyota, right? 00:03:31.508 --> 00:03:35.228 And they're just world renowned for their commitment to quality. 00:03:35.228 --> 00:03:35.288 They. 00:03:35.583 --> 00:03:37.773 Like literally invented a framework, right? 00:03:38.043 --> 00:03:40.893 Um, that the f that a lot of folks have adopted, um, because 00:03:40.898 --> 00:03:42.423 they've been so really good at it. 00:03:42.663 --> 00:03:45.603 Then you have like the other folks who like pharmaceutical companies 00:03:45.603 --> 00:03:49.113 and such that are regulated and so they need to have this validation 00:03:49.113 --> 00:03:50.863 from point to point to point, right? 00:03:51.093 --> 00:03:52.713 And, and that's not an option either. 00:03:53.103 --> 00:03:55.713 But then there are the rest of us who d maybe don't fit 00:03:55.713 --> 00:03:56.913 into either of those buckets. 00:03:56.913 --> 00:04:00.960 Maybe our management doesn't necessarily, want or value like the 00:04:00.960 --> 00:04:05.130 Toyota letter level of quality and they aren't government regulated. 00:04:05.135 --> 00:04:09.100 Like, how do, how do we get that le that same level of quality, especially 00:04:09.270 --> 00:04:10.050 in something like ServiceNow. 00:04:10.415 --> 00:04:12.965 Paul: Yeah, I mean, I think it's, it's equally a problem, right? 00:04:12.995 --> 00:04:17.615 No one wants to be spending money on testing, um, when they don't need to be. 00:04:17.645 --> 00:04:21.125 Everyone's looking for more efficient ways of doing things, especially at 00:04:21.125 --> 00:04:23.135 the moment, the macroeconomic climate. 00:04:23.495 --> 00:04:26.975 So we've gotta do more with the people that we've got, not everybody's, you know, 00:04:26.980 --> 00:04:29.045 has a budget to, get more resource in. 00:04:29.045 --> 00:04:31.055 So we need to be more efficient and effective. 00:04:31.055 --> 00:04:35.330 So, The, the conversation with those sorts of organizations is, well, look, 00:04:35.330 --> 00:04:38.510 you've got a team of five people or 10 people, or wherever it is, and 00:04:38.510 --> 00:04:42.020 you want to be getting the maximum amount of those people as possible. 00:04:42.200 --> 00:04:45.770 What you don't want your developers doing in that situation, and we know 00:04:45.770 --> 00:04:49.340 that especially ServiceNow at the moment to ServiceNow developers are, 00:04:49.345 --> 00:04:51.260 are scarce and they're high cost. 00:04:51.320 --> 00:04:53.420 The rates are rising, you know, all the time. 00:04:53.720 --> 00:04:56.780 So you want those guys, those skilled guys to be. 00:04:57.605 --> 00:05:00.905 Making configuration changes, configuring new modules, bringing 00:05:00.905 --> 00:05:02.345 out the real power from ServiceNow. 00:05:02.855 --> 00:05:05.885 What you don't want those guys doing is writing some code. 00:05:05.972 --> 00:05:09.572 in tools like atf, which need, you know, I think generally accepted, 00:05:09.752 --> 00:05:12.572 you need to be quite a competent developer to be able to use. 00:05:12.882 --> 00:05:17.042 So really maximizing the efficiency is the, sound bite 00:05:17.042 --> 00:05:19.018 for those sorts of organizations. 00:05:19.378 --> 00:05:21.508 Duke: I just wanna go over one thing that's just, it 00:05:21.508 --> 00:05:22.678 kind of keeps me up at night. 00:05:22.798 --> 00:05:25.732 And it's not just the, the efficiency of it, right? 00:05:25.732 --> 00:05:28.972 Or how many, like how much extra oomph can I get per person 00:05:28.972 --> 00:05:29.922 who's focused on the testing? 00:05:30.352 --> 00:05:33.682 It's just how bad is it in the trenches? 00:05:34.372 --> 00:05:37.825 Like we have to, we have to upgrade basically twice a year. 00:05:38.198 --> 00:05:38.618 Right? 00:05:38.875 --> 00:05:42.672 This platform keeps growing horizontally, there's always some 00:05:42.672 --> 00:05:44.532 new process module rolling on. 00:05:44.682 --> 00:05:51.012 There's always some new or trialed out tech that we need to like move to or think 00:05:51.012 --> 00:05:54.402 about moving to, and so you've got that. 00:05:55.302 --> 00:05:58.362 Twice a year and your stakeholders are all across the organization. 00:05:58.362 --> 00:06:02.202 So it's not like, it's not just, okay, hey, it, who's probably used 00:06:02.202 --> 00:06:04.482 to like stopping whatever they're doing and testing something. 00:06:04.652 --> 00:06:04.942 Paul: Yeah. 00:06:05.322 --> 00:06:06.942 Duke: But can you do that for hr? 00:06:06.942 --> 00:06:08.322 Can you do that for SecOps? 00:06:08.322 --> 00:06:10.862 Can you do that for, facilities management? 00:06:11.642 --> 00:06:11.932 Paul: Yeah, 00:06:11.942 --> 00:06:13.172 Duke: do that to your finance department? 00:06:13.172 --> 00:06:15.212 Like they're in the middle of close, right? 00:06:15.212 --> 00:06:17.912 They're in the middle of financial close for the organization and you're like, Hey 00:06:17.912 --> 00:06:19.922 guys, you gotta stop for 10 days and like 00:06:20.162 --> 00:06:20.452 Paul: yeah, 00:06:21.332 --> 00:06:24.337 Duke: test your stuff like, How did we get here? 00:06:24.893 --> 00:06:25.883 Paul: this is the problem, isn't it? 00:06:25.907 --> 00:06:29.387 ServiceNow has been so successful now that it's rolling out, as you 00:06:29.392 --> 00:06:33.017 say, across the organization and everybody's jumping on and wanting 00:06:33.017 --> 00:06:36.467 the, you know, the latest module that fixes their enterprise workflow 00:06:36.472 --> 00:06:37.757 problems for their functional area. 00:06:37.757 --> 00:06:38.747 And that's fantastic. 00:06:38.767 --> 00:06:43.730 But what that's brought with it, as you say, is the increase in the potential for 00:06:43.970 --> 00:06:46.010 things to go really wrong in a bad way. 00:06:46.250 --> 00:06:50.780 brilliant example, Rob, is the, we had a customer who, they had the HR 00:06:50.780 --> 00:06:55.477 module and they tweaked an ACR rule, nothing to do with the HCR HR module, 00:06:55.860 --> 00:07:00.667 or so they thought they tweaked this ACL rule, and it blew up HR. 00:07:00.932 --> 00:07:04.232 And of course Monday morning when it all went wrong, the head of 00:07:04.232 --> 00:07:07.058 HR was jumping up and down and saying, what the hell is going on? 00:07:07.088 --> 00:07:08.198 ServiceNow's not working. 00:07:08.318 --> 00:07:11.078 , and everybody was, you know, saying, well, we haven't changed anything. 00:07:11.083 --> 00:07:12.638 It, it should all be working. 00:07:12.698 --> 00:07:16.678 And of course, it's the potential for knock on impact across those 00:07:17.058 --> 00:07:20.358 functional areas now, which is increase every time we roll out a new module. 00:07:20.358 --> 00:07:21.958 That's the, the risk increases. 00:07:22.140 --> 00:07:24.060 Duke: can I just say a couple more things that just. 00:07:24.435 --> 00:07:27.075 Again, they keep me up at night and I'm hoping you got an answer. 00:07:27.075 --> 00:07:30.645 For us, this idea that what we build is invisible. 00:07:30.645 --> 00:07:34.125 It's not like we're manufacturing cars and we can like look at the car and say, 00:07:34.125 --> 00:07:35.625 what's that thing sticking out the side? 00:07:35.625 --> 00:07:36.705 Like that's not supposed to be there. 00:07:36.990 --> 00:07:37.470 Paul: Yeah. 00:07:37.565 --> 00:07:40.545 Duke: there's such visibility problems to the things that we build. 00:07:40.805 --> 00:07:44.725 And the second thing is that our consumer, who I would say a lot of the 00:07:44.725 --> 00:07:47.575 ecosystem expects the consumer is kind of. 00:07:47.980 --> 00:07:50.890 Very responsible for their part of the testing, right? 00:07:50.890 --> 00:07:53.140 So, oh, how did this get all the way to prod? 00:07:53.140 --> 00:07:55.240 Well, maybe you didn't test as much. 00:07:55.240 --> 00:07:56.470 And they're like, how are they? 00:07:56.680 --> 00:07:57.880 It's not their job. 00:07:58.525 --> 00:07:58.945 Paul: Yeah. 00:07:59.020 --> 00:08:00.220 Duke: They know what their job is. 00:08:00.220 --> 00:08:04.240 This is just like a tool about the job, and they're not the tools manufacturer. 00:08:04.360 --> 00:08:06.000 And again, the visibility, visibility problem. 00:08:06.140 --> 00:08:10.100 So you can almost see why things aren't documented as well, right? 00:08:10.400 --> 00:08:10.690 Paul: Yeah. 00:08:11.330 --> 00:08:14.570 Yeah, I mean the, the, the visibility thing is, is a really interesting 00:08:14.570 --> 00:08:19.070 one, and that's why, you know, our approach to testing is that the system 00:08:19.070 --> 00:08:21.330 should be tested in a way that will. 00:08:21.895 --> 00:08:24.745 As closely as possible represent how the user's gonna use it. 00:08:24.865 --> 00:08:27.475 I always use, I always call it the Monday morning test, right? 00:08:27.805 --> 00:08:28.855 you are gonna make some changes. 00:08:28.855 --> 00:08:31.885 You put a new release in on a weekend, on a Monday morning when 00:08:31.885 --> 00:08:34.135 somebody goes in and raises a. 00:08:34.465 --> 00:08:37.945 Critical security incident at nine o'clock on a Monday morning. 00:08:38.275 --> 00:08:41.275 They need to be able to raise that if the system hasn't been 00:08:41.275 --> 00:08:45.175 tested in the exact same way as that, US will do that on a Monday. 00:08:45.175 --> 00:08:48.805 There's a potential that it could go wrong and there'd be egg on the face of, you 00:08:48.810 --> 00:08:50.425 know, a lot of people if that happens. 00:08:50.845 --> 00:08:55.345 So that, that visibility of, and the ability to be able to test exactly like 00:08:55.345 --> 00:08:56.995 the end user is really, really important. 00:08:57.565 --> 00:08:58.675 I think that's the first thing. 00:08:58.675 --> 00:09:02.688 The second thing is you're absolutely right about, the business are, 00:09:02.688 --> 00:09:04.068 they're, these are busy people, right? 00:09:04.068 --> 00:09:07.548 They're, they're busy running the business, um, making their, their 00:09:07.548 --> 00:09:09.798 functional areas productive as possible. 00:09:10.218 --> 00:09:14.518 They haven't got the time to spend a week testing, user acceptance, testing a new 00:09:14.578 --> 00:09:16.318 release, or a, an upgrade of service. 00:09:16.318 --> 00:09:17.849 Now, they just, they just want it to work. 00:09:17.898 --> 00:09:20.638 So, you know, we've tried to build in tools. 00:09:21.098 --> 00:09:26.138 Inside of Automate Pro that help those people be able to verify that 00:09:26.138 --> 00:09:29.828 their Monday morning process is still gonna work, but without having to 00:09:29.828 --> 00:09:33.338 spend hours and hours or, days at the keyboard making sure it's gonna work. 00:09:33.522 --> 00:09:33.852 CJ: Yeah. 00:09:33.852 --> 00:09:37.332 So that's a, that is a very good, and, and I think very, um, 00:09:37.332 --> 00:09:38.622 succinct value message, right? 00:09:38.622 --> 00:09:39.492 For Automate Pro. 00:09:39.918 --> 00:09:43.098 cuz when I think about testing, I think about a part of the project 00:09:43.098 --> 00:09:45.498 that is often under-resourced, right? 00:09:45.498 --> 00:09:50.905 And often, the last thing to be done and therefore the first thing to be squeezed. 00:09:51.275 --> 00:09:52.055 Paul: Yeah, totally. 00:09:52.415 --> 00:09:55.835 I spent many years of my career as a project manager, and the number of 00:09:55.835 --> 00:10:00.905 times I had to go to the, the, the QA manager in, uh, in my project and say, 00:10:01.115 --> 00:10:03.995 Hey guys, uh, we're, we are running over a little bit on the development, 00:10:03.995 --> 00:10:07.355 can you squeeze your testing into, you know, a week rather than two? 00:10:07.582 --> 00:10:09.262 it's the thing that gives, isn't it? 00:10:09.435 --> 00:10:13.095 in a project, it's the thing that can get condensed, and that 00:10:13.095 --> 00:10:14.445 means that you're taking risk. 00:10:14.505 --> 00:10:16.245 You know, at the end of the day, that's what it's about. 00:10:16.245 --> 00:10:18.525 And you don't really want to be doing that, and you can't be doing 00:10:18.525 --> 00:10:22.605 that in these, you know, large organizations, cross-functional areas. 00:10:22.785 --> 00:10:24.375 ServiceNow's come business critical. 00:10:24.375 --> 00:10:26.925 Now, Hannah, haven't we, as you know, let's face it, it's, it 00:10:26.925 --> 00:10:29.085 used to be an IT help desk tool. 00:10:29.275 --> 00:10:30.265 Service portal. 00:10:30.325 --> 00:10:32.935 if your mouse broke, you needed a new one, you'd request it. 00:10:33.115 --> 00:10:34.135 It's not like that anymore. 00:10:34.195 --> 00:10:37.058 You know, businesses are running their, enterprise workflow, 00:10:37.088 --> 00:10:41.258 they're ordered, the cash processes are engineered on service now. 00:10:41.258 --> 00:10:41.858 It's critical. 00:10:42.525 --> 00:10:45.338 CJ: so that's a good point, ServiceNow is becoming business critical. 00:10:45.338 --> 00:10:46.148 I like that. 00:10:46.418 --> 00:10:50.073 Um, because especially when I started, it wasn't acknowledged as such. 00:10:50.240 --> 00:10:50.360 I. 00:10:50.360 --> 00:10:55.020 And then after you built, say like change management on it, and change management 00:10:55.020 --> 00:11:00.210 was rigorously enforced, then you'd start to see where the business would be like, 00:11:00.240 --> 00:11:02.280 Hey, this thing actually can't go down. 00:11:02.400 --> 00:11:05.100 You actually need to put the change management system through 00:11:05.100 --> 00:11:07.530 change management processes if you want to upgrade it. 00:11:07.535 --> 00:11:07.800 Right. 00:11:08.100 --> 00:11:11.280 And you know, and now like there's obviously so much more. 00:11:11.410 --> 00:11:14.667 That ServiceNow is running, uh, especially horizontally, with all the 00:11:14.667 --> 00:11:18.477 different verticals that are, that are out there now, that the business can't 00:11:18.507 --> 00:11:21.267 afford that downtime for ServiceNow. 00:11:21.687 --> 00:11:22.197 And 00:11:22.402 --> 00:11:26.075 Paul: yeah, and, and you know, crucial part of change management, as we 00:11:26.075 --> 00:11:28.415 all know, is testing verification. 00:11:28.415 --> 00:11:31.475 You know, so, you know, as soon as a change goes to the change board, 00:11:31.475 --> 00:11:33.995 the first thing they're going to look at is what testing has been 00:11:33.995 --> 00:11:38.002 done and what, has this change affected anything else in the system? 00:11:38.545 --> 00:11:42.865 and that ability to produce that evidence, especially in heavily regulated 00:11:43.045 --> 00:11:46.075 quality focused organizations, but not just those that, you know, everyone 00:11:46.075 --> 00:11:49.418 wants to know that their system is not gonna be brought down by this 00:11:49.418 --> 00:11:50.918 change that they're implementing. 00:11:51.188 --> 00:11:55.178 And that's why Fraud Rank Pro, you know, we weren't just thinking about, 00:11:55.718 --> 00:11:59.618 let's automate the testing, make that simple, easy, quick as possible, 00:11:59.918 --> 00:12:01.538 uh, with a hundred percent coverage. 00:12:01.898 --> 00:12:06.428 But also what are the outputs that the change board need to be able to 00:12:06.428 --> 00:12:09.428 look at when they're reviewing the change and assessing the risk of that? 00:12:09.758 --> 00:12:10.988 And they're gonna need documentation. 00:12:10.988 --> 00:12:14.228 They wanna see the test plans, they're gonna wanna see the results. 00:12:14.233 --> 00:12:17.318 They're gonna wanna see what defects were raised and how they were fixed. 00:12:17.468 --> 00:12:21.722 They wanna see that UATs been, completed and acceptable, and they wanna see 00:12:21.722 --> 00:12:23.102 the documents have been updated. 00:12:23.102 --> 00:12:25.892 So this is, you know, we were thinking when we, when we had the 00:12:25.892 --> 00:12:29.762 vision for Automat Pro, we had the vision that it was gonna help all. 00:12:29.832 --> 00:12:33.432 Team members within the delivery process, not just testers, 00:12:33.920 --> 00:12:36.750 CJ: Right, because you're saying it's not, it is not enough just to test and 00:12:36.750 --> 00:12:38.460 hit a checkbox that the testing was done. 00:12:38.460 --> 00:12:40.980 You actually need the evidence that the testing was completed. 00:12:41.065 --> 00:12:41.725 Paul: right? 00:12:42.060 --> 00:12:45.690 Duke: Corey, how many change controls have you done where it's like test 00:12:45.690 --> 00:12:48.900 plan, will you write it in the ch the test plan and then maybe you 00:12:48.900 --> 00:12:50.700 put in the work notes like, I tested 00:12:51.165 --> 00:12:51.720 CJ: Yeah, pretty 00:12:51.810 --> 00:12:53.070 Duke: it and that was it. 00:12:55.140 --> 00:12:58.560 I just like, like broke into a cold sweat here. 00:12:58.560 --> 00:13:03.397 Thinking about, thinking about like, cuz ServiceNow really. 00:13:04.447 --> 00:13:08.617 I am sure there's someone over there, but I like, I just don't know if somebody has 00:13:08.617 --> 00:13:13.110 seriously thought about if this thing is so successful and people start trusting 00:13:13.200 --> 00:13:15.510 serious operational workflows with it, 00:13:16.130 --> 00:13:16.420 Paul: Yeah. 00:13:16.960 --> 00:13:19.361 Duke: let's put our life sciences technology on this. 00:13:20.155 --> 00:13:24.835 Let's put our, our manufacturing safety mechanism stuff on this, 00:13:25.105 --> 00:13:30.198 where eventually, some flows out there are so important that they are 00:13:30.203 --> 00:13:33.168 measured in lives lost per failure 00:13:34.098 --> 00:13:37.243 Paul: it's happening, you know, it's because it's a, it's a great 00:13:37.243 --> 00:13:42.460 platform, So, it's becoming more of the business processes, the critical 00:13:42.460 --> 00:13:44.110 business processes are being run on it. 00:13:44.470 --> 00:13:47.560 And that, that's why we are super excited because the more critical 00:13:47.560 --> 00:13:48.800 it gets, the more you need to test. 00:13:49.420 --> 00:13:52.360 The more you need to assure yourself, the more you need to have control 00:13:52.450 --> 00:13:53.980 of the ServiceNow environment. 00:13:54.225 --> 00:14:00.195 it worries me that ServiceNow instances and update sets can be moved around 00:14:00.195 --> 00:14:04.942 and, put in without, with very little control of what's going on, what versions 00:14:04.942 --> 00:14:09.202 of configurations, you know, in what environment, you know, who put them 00:14:09.207 --> 00:14:12.495 there, what evidence was there that they're, we, that they actually work. 00:14:12.495 --> 00:14:15.705 Have we verified that they work in that new environment and we 00:14:15.705 --> 00:14:16.875 haven't broken anything else? 00:14:17.535 --> 00:14:18.105 Scares me. 00:14:18.180 --> 00:14:19.260 Duke: there without trusting you? 00:14:19.290 --> 00:14:19.860 You know what I mean? 00:14:19.860 --> 00:14:21.660 Like that zero trust reassurance. 00:14:22.320 --> 00:14:24.600 Like I don't want to have to just trust that you did it. 00:14:24.630 --> 00:14:26.070 I don't want to see evidence of it. 00:14:26.075 --> 00:14:28.290 And I think evidence, like we've talked about the scary bits 00:14:28.290 --> 00:14:29.840 of testing and kind of why. 00:14:31.320 --> 00:14:33.120 the status quo doesn't cut it. 00:14:33.150 --> 00:14:37.740 but evidence I think is a great angle into what you guys do, Paul, and before 00:14:37.745 --> 00:14:41.010 we entirely screwed up the first recording and got halfway through with that, 00:14:41.860 --> 00:14:46.823 with the recording, you were mentioning something about , quality controlled 00:14:46.828 --> 00:14:48.983 organization has to even take screenshots. 00:14:49.868 --> 00:14:53.312 Paul: Yeah, so if I think back to my first career, was an an 00:14:53.312 --> 00:14:59.172 analyst programmer for investment company and we were testing then a. 00:14:59.372 --> 00:15:03.632 Pretty much in the same way as I see companies still test today, and that 00:15:03.632 --> 00:15:09.632 is Word documents of the test script X, Excel spreadsheets of the R, the output 00:15:09.662 --> 00:15:15.002 outcome of the tests with, you know, defects tracked in X Excel spreadsheets. 00:15:16.052 --> 00:15:17.552 This is still being done today. 00:15:17.582 --> 00:15:20.252 You know, it staggers me that we walk into organizations and this 00:15:20.252 --> 00:15:21.542 kind of thing is still going on. 00:15:21.692 --> 00:15:24.992 Yes, those things might be, you know, there's Word documents and Excel is maybe 00:15:24.992 --> 00:15:29.162 stored in Agile or something like that, but you know, this is still going on. 00:15:29.222 --> 00:15:32.552 We haven't really moved forward and the organizations that we. 00:15:33.472 --> 00:15:37.402 Typically talked to are the large, heavily regulated or, you know, 00:15:37.432 --> 00:15:38.932 quality focused organizations. 00:15:38.932 --> 00:15:43.642 And they, they have really strict requirements for the, for example, 00:15:43.642 --> 00:15:48.262 the screenshots have to, in certain organizations to meet regulations, 00:15:48.262 --> 00:15:51.833 they have to have a u r URL at the top on the screenshot, and they have to 00:15:51.833 --> 00:15:53.422 have a date timestamp at the bottom. 00:15:53.782 --> 00:15:57.677 And the reason for that is because what they don't want is people, Being able 00:15:57.677 --> 00:16:02.417 to go into paint and sort of adjust a screenshot and take it two weeks after the 00:16:02.417 --> 00:16:05.657 test cuz they forgot the, you know, they should have done that step of the test. 00:16:05.897 --> 00:16:10.437 These have to be, rigorously controlled, in an environment where you can't go in 00:16:10.437 --> 00:16:14.458 and tamper and just squirt a screenshot in just the last minute cause you forgot it. 00:16:15.477 --> 00:16:17.017 And the requirements are really strict. 00:16:17.017 --> 00:16:22.153 these are the kinds of levels of rigor that these organizations need. 00:16:22.287 --> 00:16:24.447 To meet their regulatory requirements. 00:16:24.628 --> 00:16:25.978 CJ: and just following up on that. 00:16:25.978 --> 00:16:26.128 Right. 00:16:26.133 --> 00:16:27.448 Cuz I find that fascinating. 00:16:27.602 --> 00:16:30.565 how many of these organizations right, are tracking the, the 00:16:30.570 --> 00:16:32.895 resources needed to make that happen? 00:16:32.895 --> 00:16:36.675 And like, what that spend looks like and as a percentage of, of maybe 00:16:36.675 --> 00:16:40.135 their total tech spend or their total, total, uh, ServiceNow spend. 00:16:40.135 --> 00:16:40.375 Right? 00:16:40.525 --> 00:16:44.335 Like, it, it sounds like to me, in order to do that effectively, you need 00:16:44.335 --> 00:16:48.475 to devote a significant portion of your ServiceNow team to just that action. 00:16:48.790 --> 00:16:52.600 Paul: Yeah, I, I mean, I think that's absolutely the case and, and what startles 00:16:52.600 --> 00:16:58.937 me a bit is that that's become acceptable, that, large teams of people and need to be 00:16:58.937 --> 00:17:00.737 brought together, especially for upgrades. 00:17:01.117 --> 00:17:01.237 I. 00:17:01.237 --> 00:17:03.337 And we've got a couple of organizations that we work with. 00:17:03.342 --> 00:17:06.697 They spend three months, you know, sometimes three months 00:17:06.697 --> 00:17:09.067 more with a, a large team. 00:17:09.067 --> 00:17:11.187 We're talking, 20, 30 people. 00:17:11.887 --> 00:17:14.827 Often it's provided by a ServiceNow provider as well. 00:17:14.887 --> 00:17:17.283 so they're, you know, these aren't, Low cost resources. 00:17:17.333 --> 00:17:18.353 These are expensive resources. 00:17:18.353 --> 00:17:19.163 They're brought together. 00:17:19.317 --> 00:17:21.087 , all the focuses on upgrades. 00:17:21.087 --> 00:17:26.067 I think organizations are starting to realize, especially now that Automate 00:17:26.067 --> 00:17:29.727 Pro, you know, is starting to, grow and get a visibility in the market, I 00:17:29.727 --> 00:17:31.347 think people are starting to question. 00:17:31.538 --> 00:17:33.753 the spend on upgrades is too high. 00:17:33.783 --> 00:17:37.103 That money could be better deployed on, rolling out new upgrades of, 00:17:37.307 --> 00:17:41.373 modules of service now, or, increasing the usage in certain areas and 00:17:41.373 --> 00:17:42.633 getting more value from the platform. 00:17:42.633 --> 00:17:48.149 It shouldn't be money spent just keeping up to date on the, the latest version. 00:17:48.154 --> 00:17:49.619 That's, not good spend. 00:17:50.249 --> 00:17:52.589 CJ: that's one of the things that folks look at, when you start talking about 00:17:52.594 --> 00:17:56.159 testing because they slot testing in as like a maintenance kind of function and 00:17:56.159 --> 00:17:59.833 they slot development in, it's like the new and pretty, how can we get the next 00:17:59.838 --> 00:18:01.483 feature that is gonna create that value? 00:18:01.503 --> 00:18:04.093 But that, uh, sometimes I don't think that they really realize 00:18:04.093 --> 00:18:08.263 that testing is actually a really huge value creator as well. 00:18:08.463 --> 00:18:09.453 Paul: Yeah, absolutely. 00:18:09.493 --> 00:18:14.079 it's interesting to see with customers that are struggling with upgrades. 00:18:14.109 --> 00:18:16.806 I was talking to a customer the other day and they said the great 00:18:16.806 --> 00:18:18.246 thing about Automate Pro is. 00:18:18.726 --> 00:18:23.286 Now that we have confidence that we can do upgrades at the click of a button, we 00:18:23.286 --> 00:18:25.326 will now move to twice a yearly upgrades. 00:18:25.326 --> 00:18:26.796 They were only doing once a year. 00:18:27.036 --> 00:18:31.416 Not out of choice, but because the whole damn thing was so painful and 00:18:31.421 --> 00:18:35.633 extraordinary, resource hungry and costly, that was almost enforced on them. 00:18:35.633 --> 00:18:40.363 They were so exhausted by the upgrade process that they did one year Now. 00:18:40.608 --> 00:18:43.908 They're gonna move to two a year and that will mean they can jump on 00:18:43.908 --> 00:18:45.618 the new modules that Service Now. 00:18:45.708 --> 00:18:47.418 I mean, they were, they were going to knowledge events 00:18:47.418 --> 00:18:48.678 and going, that's fantastic. 00:18:48.678 --> 00:18:49.128 New module. 00:18:49.128 --> 00:18:50.268 But we are not on that version. 00:18:50.538 --> 00:18:52.548 You know, we're not gonna be on that version for a year and a half, 00:18:52.968 --> 00:18:55.038 so we can't take advantage of it. 00:18:55.068 --> 00:18:57.678 So, you know, that's when testing becomes a value add. 00:18:57.738 --> 00:19:01.848 If you can test and upgrade seamlessly and quickly, then you 00:19:01.848 --> 00:19:03.588 can, get the value out the platform. 00:19:04.101 --> 00:19:06.771 Duke: So we know that it's, it's something that's gotta be done. 00:19:07.071 --> 00:19:09.591 The more often you can get it done, the better. 00:19:09.878 --> 00:19:11.218 it's gotta be done thoroughly. 00:19:11.218 --> 00:19:14.788 But how do you take the effort out of the system? 00:19:15.231 --> 00:19:16.991 Paul: this is the big problem especially with automated 00:19:16.991 --> 00:19:20.281 testing, , automated testing's been around for quite a while now. 00:19:20.311 --> 00:19:23.868 And what we wanted to do was to solve some of the fundamental 00:19:23.873 --> 00:19:25.458 problems with automated testing. 00:19:25.848 --> 00:19:31.068 And those typically are not around the initial build of the tests. 00:19:31.278 --> 00:19:34.818 You know, you'll see a lot of systems available, commercially that. 00:19:34.879 --> 00:19:38.923 Have you believed that you can create tests, , in, a matter of seconds? 00:19:38.923 --> 00:19:41.113 They're typically kind of click and record stuff. 00:19:41.113 --> 00:19:42.313 I dunno whether you've seen those. 00:19:42.323 --> 00:19:45.103 You, you know, you open up service now and you say, right, 00:19:45.103 --> 00:19:46.603 I'm gonna record a test now. 00:19:46.873 --> 00:19:50.323 And you start filling in the form and it sort of tracks what you're doing. 00:19:50.323 --> 00:19:52.209 And then, oh, there's your, there's your test script. 00:19:52.269 --> 00:19:56.816 Uh, that all looks great until ServiceNow come along and change the ui. 00:19:56.996 --> 00:19:57.926 You know, and they're great. 00:19:58.946 --> 00:20:02.156 A great example of that was the next experience, right? 00:20:02.156 --> 00:20:07.376 So if you've created your test using that click and record method, Every 00:20:07.376 --> 00:20:11.846 single one of those tests is gonna break when you move to the next experience 00:20:12.196 --> 00:20:13.816 So we wanted to solve that problem. 00:20:13.816 --> 00:20:14.716 We didn't like that. 00:20:14.716 --> 00:20:16.756 We don't even have click and record actually. 00:20:16.756 --> 00:20:21.016 And because of that very reason, it looks great, but it's not robust. 00:20:21.016 --> 00:20:23.056 And that's the biggest problem with test automation. 00:20:23.386 --> 00:20:26.026 It's not the initial creation, it's the maintenance. 00:20:26.026 --> 00:20:30.616 You've gotta have a system whereby if ServiceNow upgrades their ui, 00:20:31.066 --> 00:20:32.596 those tests are still gonna work. 00:20:32.921 --> 00:20:36.971 So that, you know, any defect that's raised is not related to your 00:20:36.971 --> 00:20:39.341 script being out of date or wrong. 00:20:39.359 --> 00:20:41.124 but it's actually a genuine defect. 00:20:41.594 --> 00:20:43.454 in the world of testing that's called test rot. 00:20:43.574 --> 00:20:46.004 I dunno whether you've, come across that phrase, but it's, it's basically 00:20:46.009 --> 00:20:47.814 like the decay of your tests over time. 00:20:48.626 --> 00:20:50.306 CJ: I love that turn right test rot. 00:20:51.081 --> 00:20:51.471 Paul: Yeah. 00:20:51.566 --> 00:20:52.706 CJ: might be a nice band name. 00:20:52.886 --> 00:20:58.236 Um, but, but one, of the things that I really just got from that is you 00:20:58.236 --> 00:21:02.416 don't really want your testing to, to also become like a maintenance sink. 00:21:03.121 --> 00:21:03.391 Right. 00:21:03.391 --> 00:21:07.771 Like, like you're, like, you're implementing testing to reduce the amount 00:21:07.771 --> 00:21:09.301 of time or automated testing, right? 00:21:09.301 --> 00:21:12.271 You're implementing automated testing to reduce the amount of time that 00:21:12.271 --> 00:21:16.261 your testing takes, but then you need to test and maintain the testing. 00:21:16.261 --> 00:21:18.781 That's reducing the testing and, you know what I mean? 00:21:18.896 --> 00:21:19.186 Paul: Yeah. 00:21:19.728 --> 00:21:22.478 CJ: so, how does Automate Pro like help us with that? 00:21:22.968 --> 00:21:24.088 Paul: I I totally get that. 00:21:24.088 --> 00:21:26.968 And it was interesting, one of the projects I was worked on a few years 00:21:26.968 --> 00:21:30.361 ago before Auto Automat Pro I called them out and I said, look, you've got a 00:21:30.361 --> 00:21:37.221 project to test your project, you know, You've got an entire other project just 00:21:37.221 --> 00:21:41.181 testing, you know, test automation and there was code, and the code was under 00:21:41.181 --> 00:21:45.621 code control and config management and it had to go through a release process. 00:21:45.621 --> 00:21:47.901 I was like, oh my God, you've created a whole project here. 00:21:48.231 --> 00:21:52.281 So anyway, putting that to one side so that the approach that we've taken is to. 00:21:53.074 --> 00:21:57.634 make it as simple as possible to update the tests in line with the 00:21:57.634 --> 00:21:59.584 configuration changes that you're making. 00:21:59.734 --> 00:22:02.691 and you've gotta do that, there's no getting away from the fact that you've 00:22:02.691 --> 00:22:04.851 got to keep your tests in line, you know? 00:22:05.211 --> 00:22:07.576 But, we try and make that as simple as possible. 00:22:07.606 --> 00:22:10.666 And the, the way that we've made that as simple as possible is, is 00:22:10.666 --> 00:22:12.496 with something called model blocks. 00:22:12.496 --> 00:22:16.913 and these are reusable components, They're like, almost like procedures in, in code. 00:22:17.083 --> 00:22:20.699 So that you're not, creating the same, test over and over again. 00:22:20.699 --> 00:22:25.799 you've got a block of, of tests and that block may be used in, you 00:22:25.799 --> 00:22:27.749 know, a hundred different tests. 00:22:27.839 --> 00:22:31.919 Let's say it's, you know, how you navigate to a particular part of the service portal 00:22:31.919 --> 00:22:35.789 or something that would be a model block, and you'd reuse that model block over and 00:22:35.789 --> 00:22:38.999 over in different tests and navigate into the portal and get to certain places. 00:22:39.389 --> 00:22:43.769 Now, if the navigation changes, and this happens a lot, we find with our customers. 00:22:44.189 --> 00:22:47.789 They might change the, top level menu structure of their portal. 00:22:47.789 --> 00:22:49.849 They might put another layer in or, rejig it. 00:22:50.149 --> 00:22:54.529 So in traditional sort of test automation, you'd have to go into every one of 00:22:54.529 --> 00:22:58.939 those hundred tests and go and amend that to, you know, to change it, to 00:22:58.939 --> 00:23:00.939 follow the, new navigation and automate. 00:23:01.639 --> 00:23:02.419 Yeah, all for it. 00:23:02.419 --> 00:23:03.079 I mean, it's horrendous. 00:23:03.084 --> 00:23:06.509 And, the same we've heard, in atf because there's no way of doing this in atf. 00:23:06.509 --> 00:23:10.049 So you've gotta go in a hundred and as you say, that then becomes bigger 00:23:10.054 --> 00:23:11.759 than the actual change you were making. 00:23:11.789 --> 00:23:16.349 You know, that change to the navigation, I don't know, I'm not a developer, 00:23:16.349 --> 00:23:19.649 but let's say it's half a day's work, changing a hundred test scripts, that 00:23:19.649 --> 00:23:21.329 might be two or three days work, I don't 00:23:21.344 --> 00:23:21.694 CJ: right. 00:23:22.079 --> 00:23:22.739 Paul: so. 00:23:23.249 --> 00:23:26.669 You know, in Automate Pro, you go into that model block, you make that 00:23:26.669 --> 00:23:30.929 one change once you test it, and then that affects, that ripples through, if 00:23:30.929 --> 00:23:32.249 you like, all those a hundred tests. 00:23:32.249 --> 00:23:36.449 So, you know, what we've tried to do is bring new best practice and 00:23:36.454 --> 00:23:40.179 innovation into this world of test automation and solve these problems. 00:23:40.316 --> 00:23:44.546 if the tests aren't up to date, they're no use, and, you know, so that, that was a 00:23:44.546 --> 00:23:46.166 critical problem that we wanted to solve. 00:23:46.701 --> 00:23:49.201 CJ: so it sounds like to automate pros to service now for testing. 00:23:50.076 --> 00:23:50.366 Paul: Yeah. 00:23:50.646 --> 00:23:50.946 Yeah. 00:23:50.993 --> 00:23:52.733 we're a really innovative company. 00:23:52.733 --> 00:23:55.163 We want to, you know, we thought about these problems. 00:23:55.193 --> 00:23:57.593 it's hard for us cuz people see click and record and they 00:23:57.593 --> 00:23:59.003 say, oh yeah, that looks good. 00:23:59.003 --> 00:24:01.133 That looks really easy, looks great on a sales demo. 00:24:01.403 --> 00:24:04.003 in reality it's really not very good. 00:24:04.823 --> 00:24:05.043 So, 00:24:07.598 --> 00:24:11.438 Duke: Paul, there's, one thing that I was super blown away by with the 00:24:11.438 --> 00:24:16.401 video that we did, is that if you're careful enough, you can hit two birds 00:24:16.401 --> 00:24:17.961 with one stone in a lot of ways. 00:24:17.966 --> 00:24:19.731 So can you talk a little bit about. 00:24:20.398 --> 00:24:23.878 automate pro as software delivery, not just testing. 00:24:24.508 --> 00:24:24.958 Paul: Yeah. 00:24:24.958 --> 00:24:26.438 Wayne is my business partner. 00:24:26.438 --> 00:24:30.428 he's worked in the IT delivering projects just like me for, you know, 30 odd years. 00:24:30.576 --> 00:24:33.901 and we've involved, because we've done multiple roles throughout our careers, 00:24:34.171 --> 00:24:37.651 we've done pretty much everything you do in the software delivery lifecycle. 00:24:37.651 --> 00:24:43.151 Our philosophy around testing is that you should test as the end user is gonna 00:24:43.156 --> 00:24:44.471 use the system on a Monday morning. 00:24:44.471 --> 00:24:44.801 Right? 00:24:44.801 --> 00:24:46.201 So almost like. 00:24:46.721 --> 00:24:50.418 Use cases, user scenarios, and it follows the process, the user will, 00:24:50.418 --> 00:24:52.118 follow through, on a Monday morning. 00:24:52.448 --> 00:24:57.488 Now, if you take that approach to building your test, not only does that make sure 00:24:57.548 --> 00:25:02.528 that on a Monday morning it's gonna work for your user, but what we realized was 00:25:02.558 --> 00:25:07.748 we are also capturing the screenshots as we went through that process step by step. 00:25:08.084 --> 00:25:11.074 When you come to create a user guide or a process guide or a 00:25:11.074 --> 00:25:13.054 training guide, Of that process. 00:25:13.684 --> 00:25:14.404 What do you need? 00:25:14.464 --> 00:25:18.304 Well, you need step by step going through each step of the process, and 00:25:18.304 --> 00:25:21.424 you're probably gonna need a screenshot of what it looks like along the way. 00:25:21.664 --> 00:25:24.424 And you need a description of what you're doing well. 00:25:24.454 --> 00:25:28.294 Okay, so if we take what we've done from the test, the output of the testing, 00:25:29.374 --> 00:25:32.914 and we repurpose that, so we've got a clever function, which basically. 00:25:33.274 --> 00:25:36.754 takes that output from the test execution, all the screenshots, all 00:25:36.754 --> 00:25:38.704 of the descriptions, all of the steps. 00:25:39.094 --> 00:25:44.224 Recasts that in the form of a user guide so that turns into a knowledge-based 00:25:44.224 --> 00:25:46.744 article, step-by-step instructions. 00:25:46.749 --> 00:25:51.084 Hey, Presto, you've just created yourself a training guide, user guide, process, 00:25:51.454 --> 00:25:52.884 document, whatever you want to call it. 00:25:53.494 --> 00:25:54.394 And it's branded. 00:25:54.394 --> 00:25:55.294 You can change the colors. 00:25:55.294 --> 00:25:57.694 It's got a contents page, you know, all the stuff. 00:25:57.754 --> 00:26:01.654 Now, I used to be a business analyst in my, one of my roles years ago, 00:26:01.714 --> 00:26:06.724 and producing user guys used to be a completely separate activity from testing. 00:26:06.814 --> 00:26:09.484 And you would open up Word and what would you do? 00:26:09.514 --> 00:26:10.694 You'd go into, ServiceNow. 00:26:10.964 --> 00:26:13.424 You used to grab a screenshot, you'd put it in Word, you write some 00:26:13.424 --> 00:26:14.954 text around it, grab the next one. 00:26:15.224 --> 00:26:17.324 So we are saving, I dunno, days. 00:26:17.329 --> 00:26:18.684 I mean, I used to produce user guides. 00:26:18.684 --> 00:26:19.184 I used to take. 00:26:19.218 --> 00:26:21.798 two to five days to create, a decent user guide. 00:26:22.218 --> 00:26:26.178 You can do that in Automat Pro in a, few seconds with a click, on your mouse. 00:26:26.264 --> 00:26:28.814 the great thing about that as well, going back to the test rot thing, 00:26:29.144 --> 00:26:33.458 you also got user guide rot, So as soon as you Yeah, I like that. 00:26:33.458 --> 00:26:33.948 I just made that up. 00:26:34.938 --> 00:26:38.098 Um, if you, you know, as soon as you change the system, you're 00:26:38.098 --> 00:26:40.228 at a field onto a catalog item. 00:26:40.378 --> 00:26:43.798 You, what's happened is you user guide is how date that instant that's done. 00:26:44.128 --> 00:26:47.924 So, this stops that because you've updated the test to test that and 00:26:47.924 --> 00:26:51.554 you field on the catalog item, press the button, and you user guide is 00:26:51.584 --> 00:26:52.954 updated with all the new screenshots. 00:26:53.214 --> 00:26:57.374 So, you know, it's killing two birds with one stone is a great way of looking at it. 00:26:57.414 --> 00:27:00.991 we are trying to repurpose the information as many times as possible. 00:27:01.341 --> 00:27:04.551 CJ: so tell me you love developers without telling me you love developers, right? 00:27:04.551 --> 00:27:05.501 Like that's just what I heard. 00:27:08.321 --> 00:27:11.084 Paul: I mean, the thing is developers, are, you know, 00:27:11.089 --> 00:27:12.434 absolutely key in all of this. 00:27:12.464 --> 00:27:17.024 And what we want to be doing is making them as efficient as possible. 00:27:17.024 --> 00:27:19.784 So we all know ServiceNow developers at the moment. 00:27:19.989 --> 00:27:20.889 they're scarce, right? 00:27:20.919 --> 00:27:24.219 And everyone's chasing after the same set of developers. 00:27:24.609 --> 00:27:25.959 Uh, and that makes them high cost. 00:27:25.989 --> 00:27:30.339 I mean, I, I saw this way back in the eighties with sap, uh, resource where the, 00:27:30.344 --> 00:27:32.829 you know, the, the rates were ridiculous. 00:27:32.829 --> 00:27:35.469 And the, I can see the same thing happening with, with ServiceNow. 00:27:36.219 --> 00:27:40.299 So what we've gotta do is make sure those developers are doing what they're. 00:27:40.679 --> 00:27:45.449 Niche skillset is, and that is configuring ServiceNow, introducing 00:27:45.449 --> 00:27:49.199 new modules, making sure that we are using it in the best way, you 00:27:49.204 --> 00:27:50.939 know, making it efficient code. 00:27:51.599 --> 00:27:55.289 And what we don't want those guys doing is writing tests. 00:27:55.349 --> 00:27:57.569 We don't want 'em creating documentation. 00:27:57.574 --> 00:28:01.139 We want to create those, you know, take those sort of non-value added 00:28:01.139 --> 00:28:03.269 activities as much as possible. 00:28:03.479 --> 00:28:05.159 I think I saw a stat recently. 00:28:05.544 --> 00:28:10.764 That about 30% of a developer's time is actually spent developing code and 70% 00:28:10.764 --> 00:28:15.174 is on sort of non-value added moving update sets through environments. 00:28:15.174 --> 00:28:18.058 You know, trying to, handle all of that deployment stuff and things. 00:28:18.058 --> 00:28:24.504 So we, one of our aims is to make that 30% move that dial 30% to size. 00:28:24.504 --> 00:28:28.824 I know 70%, 80% get them really efficient in doing what they're great at. 00:28:29.584 --> 00:28:33.031 Duke: I think on the documentation side, we're not gonna get much 00:28:33.091 --> 00:28:36.331 more efficiency because I just don't think it's being done right. 00:28:36.901 --> 00:28:40.321 I think it's a fraction of the ecosystem that does documentation, 00:28:40.531 --> 00:28:43.001 but here we are, how many years have I ranted about it, Corey? 00:28:43.101 --> 00:28:44.151 How many years? 00:28:44.541 --> 00:28:45.891 And it's a button away. 00:28:46.521 --> 00:28:47.301 It's a button away. 00:28:48.194 --> 00:28:49.124 CJ: the value, right? 00:28:49.124 --> 00:28:51.254 The value here, duke, right, is just immense. 00:28:51.464 --> 00:28:53.804 Um, from a lot of different perspectives, right? 00:28:53.984 --> 00:28:59.051 Push button documentation, oh my God, Push button, test, deployment, oh my God. 00:28:59.291 --> 00:29:02.381 the ability to scale that and to scale the updates on that. 00:29:02.981 --> 00:29:03.431 Oh my God. 00:29:03.431 --> 00:29:05.321 And, and look, this is last piece, right? 00:29:05.321 --> 00:29:07.841 that management doesn't really care about, but I'm, I'm still in the 00:29:07.841 --> 00:29:12.431 trenches and I absolutely love is that you're gonna take all the things 00:29:12.436 --> 00:29:15.971 that I don't want to be doing and do them in a automated fashion, right? 00:29:15.976 --> 00:29:17.951 Like, I don't want to be writing documentation, right? 00:29:18.161 --> 00:29:19.471 This, it's absolutely necessary. 00:29:19.751 --> 00:29:23.561 So I do it I hate moving update sets from instance to instance, right? 00:29:23.561 --> 00:29:26.231 Like, I hate running the test and writing the test, right? 00:29:26.231 --> 00:29:27.251 Like all of that stuff. 00:29:27.551 --> 00:29:28.691 I don't wanna do any of that. 00:29:28.724 --> 00:29:32.684 and you're telling me not only can automate pro do that for me 00:29:32.714 --> 00:29:35.114 right now, I don't have to do it, which is great, but it's gonna 00:29:35.114 --> 00:29:36.314 do it better than I could anyway. 00:29:36.779 --> 00:29:37.559 Paul: absolutely. 00:29:37.619 --> 00:29:40.879 Developers are developers because you love developing code, right? 00:29:41.179 --> 00:29:44.639 You don't love doing, you don't love doing documentation and, 00:29:44.639 --> 00:29:45.929 moving up there, that's not why. 00:29:46.229 --> 00:29:49.649 You know, we've got, we, we've got developers, uh, in our organization 00:29:49.649 --> 00:29:52.379 obviously developing Automate Pro, and they wanna be writing the code, 00:29:52.561 --> 00:29:55.376 and doing clever, you know, clever things with the configuration. 00:29:55.586 --> 00:29:57.176 this is the way that we see the world. 00:29:57.176 --> 00:30:00.896 Let's get everybody in the software delivery lifecycle 00:30:00.896 --> 00:30:01.856 involved with ServiceNow. 00:30:02.156 --> 00:30:02.516 This. 00:30:02.846 --> 00:30:08.756 Remove the mundane, repetitive, the manual activities make everybody more efficient. 00:30:08.943 --> 00:30:12.393 and as a result of that, everyone will be happier and the ServiceNow 00:30:12.393 --> 00:30:14.113 platform's gonna be high quality. 00:30:14.793 --> 00:30:17.853 It's gonna make the users more happy cuz there's less defects in it. 00:30:17.853 --> 00:30:19.326 So this is, we're trying to aim for. 00:30:19.659 --> 00:30:23.249 Duke: One last thing, Paul, you, you get HR shipped with your instance, 00:30:23.254 --> 00:30:26.669 but the second you start making your own configurations to it, you've 00:30:26.669 --> 00:30:28.899 essentially got like HR 1.01, right? 00:30:29.274 --> 00:30:29.624 Paul: Right. 00:30:29.834 --> 00:30:30.224 Yeah. 00:30:31.214 --> 00:30:34.244 Duke: we have things going, development, going in parallel, some things, 00:30:34.244 --> 00:30:37.094 reaching, prod before other things, even though they're started later. 00:30:37.454 --> 00:30:40.724 And were you mentioning that Automate Pro has something to help with that? 00:30:40.964 --> 00:30:43.094 with the actual deployment of the work? 00:30:43.464 --> 00:30:47.484 Paul: Yeah, we have, and, and really it stems back to fundamental 00:30:47.484 --> 00:30:51.774 realization that we, we, uh, arrived at. 00:30:51.804 --> 00:30:55.014 So we under, we are looking at the ServiceNow environment, the 00:30:55.044 --> 00:30:58.554 different instances, development, test, staging, you know, production. 00:30:59.094 --> 00:31:01.854 And what's really interesting is that there's no real concept 00:31:02.204 --> 00:31:03.894 in ServiceNow of the release. 00:31:04.424 --> 00:31:09.274 To production route, The instances don't know about each other and they don't know 00:31:09.274 --> 00:31:12.784 their purpose and they don't know where they sit in that route to production. 00:31:13.324 --> 00:31:18.964 So what we've done as part of our auto deploy module, which essentially 00:31:18.994 --> 00:31:22.714 moves update sets from one environment to another, um, automatically, 00:31:22.714 --> 00:31:25.204 so you don't have to mess around with, you know, moving updates. 00:31:25.204 --> 00:31:28.744 That's manually, but more than just doing that kind of a bit of 00:31:28.744 --> 00:31:30.694 rpa, really moving things around. 00:31:31.074 --> 00:31:34.944 It's the control around that, and it's the understanding of 00:31:35.454 --> 00:31:37.644 what products you are creating. 00:31:37.644 --> 00:31:40.999 So we have the, the concept of products, so that might be , hr, 00:31:41.059 --> 00:31:42.289 you could define as a product. 00:31:42.619 --> 00:31:45.229 And then you've got the concept of product versions. 00:31:45.854 --> 00:31:49.544 So just as you say, as soon as you install version one of HR 00:31:49.814 --> 00:31:52.408 that's in Dev, you configure it. 00:31:52.468 --> 00:31:57.988 We understand that that configuration now is version 1.1 of hr and we un understand 00:31:57.988 --> 00:31:59.578 the update sets that make that up. 00:31:59.878 --> 00:32:03.838 And we also of course link that to the test that verifies what. 00:32:04.663 --> 00:32:08.743 Means 1.1 works, you know, what does good look like for version 1.1? 00:32:09.163 --> 00:32:12.723 And then we understand, because we're automatically moving that product 00:32:13.003 --> 00:32:16.993 through the different environments, we understand where each of those 00:32:17.033 --> 00:32:19.453 instances is in terms of the version. 00:32:19.458 --> 00:32:21.793 So we've got version 1.1 on dev. 00:32:22.063 --> 00:32:26.023 We've got version one on test, and we've got nothing in production. 00:32:26.293 --> 00:32:29.863 And as we gradually make these incremental changes, we're controlling those. 00:32:30.038 --> 00:32:34.238 Versions of those products and we know which version of which product is on what 00:32:34.238 --> 00:32:38.078 instance and whether it works cuz we've also got the testing piece coming in. 00:32:38.558 --> 00:32:43.208 And importantly, we've also got, which is the kind of nirvana situation. 00:32:43.208 --> 00:32:45.338 We've also got the linkage back to the requirement. 00:32:45.628 --> 00:32:50.998 The original requirement, so we can track that requirement is tested 00:32:50.998 --> 00:32:54.778 by this, it's in this release, it's in this instance, and we know where 00:32:54.778 --> 00:32:56.968 everything is and in full control. 00:32:57.068 --> 00:33:01.083 Any organization that is gonna be using ServiceNow as a business 00:33:01.083 --> 00:33:04.596 critical or enterprise platform is gonna need that kind of level of 00:33:04.596 --> 00:33:06.636 control across all these environments. 00:33:07.014 --> 00:33:07.344 CJ: Wow. 00:33:07.494 --> 00:33:10.794 So sometimes I feel like, you know, the, the proper question to ask is 00:33:11.304 --> 00:33:13.364 what, what doesn't auto automate pro do? 00:33:15.139 --> 00:33:18.749 Paul: Doesn't make a cup of tea on. 00:33:19.249 --> 00:33:21.799 CJ: Yeah, I mean, there's some smart teapots out there now, right? 00:33:21.799 --> 00:33:23.179 I mean, we could probably figure that out, 00:33:25.699 --> 00:33:29.659 Paul: There's organizations as customers of ours that are realizing that what they 00:33:29.659 --> 00:33:32.599 thought was good was actually not good. 00:33:32.659 --> 00:33:34.599 They were putting up with, good enough. 00:33:34.646 --> 00:33:36.296 and they're, they're really starting to see that. 00:33:36.301 --> 00:33:38.786 I mean, we're, we are getting stats back now of. 00:33:39.311 --> 00:33:46.628 90% cost savings on upgrades I think the number is 72% more test coverage. 00:33:46.928 --> 00:33:50.613 We've got 83% reduction in team size. 00:33:50.943 --> 00:33:53.163 And so these, you know, we were talking earlier about the 00:33:53.163 --> 00:33:54.383 team size needed for testing. 00:33:55.173 --> 00:34:00.333 You can reduce that by 83% as this is big, big numbers start to come in. 00:34:00.728 --> 00:34:01.953 CJ: this is paying for itself. 00:34:02.203 --> 00:34:02.863 Paul: Yeah, absolutely. 00:34:02.863 --> 00:34:07.693 I mean, the r there are ROI is simple calculation simp because of the, you 00:34:07.693 --> 00:34:09.163 know, the sorts of costs involved. 00:34:09.439 --> 00:34:13.489 and we haven't in factored in which you should do really in a full business case, 00:34:13.519 --> 00:34:15.299 is the risk reduction side of things. 00:34:15.959 --> 00:34:19.719 So, you know, as we talked about before, if we go, if ServiceNow 00:34:19.719 --> 00:34:24.161 becomes business critical, if it's frontline, I think Coca-Cola actually 00:34:24.161 --> 00:34:27.521 use ServiceNow for their B2C app. 00:34:27.611 --> 00:34:28.691 Uh, I understand. 00:34:29.021 --> 00:34:32.501 So you can actually go on your mobile phone now and buy a crate of Coca-Cola 00:34:32.501 --> 00:34:33.611 and have it delivered to your door. 00:34:33.616 --> 00:34:35.081 You know that if that goes wrong. 00:34:35.651 --> 00:34:38.501 That is, you know, as customer impacting and that's gonna 00:34:38.501 --> 00:34:40.301 affect Coca-Cola's reputation. 00:34:40.961 --> 00:34:43.631 So, we need to make sure those sorts of things work. 00:34:43.631 --> 00:34:47.051 So you can start the factor in, well what's the risk to reputation 00:34:47.081 --> 00:34:51.932 if that app is not available, for two hours while they fix a bug that 00:34:52.081 --> 00:34:53.431 was introduced in the new release. 00:34:53.431 --> 00:34:56.491 You know, just on a cost efficiency and time saving. 00:34:56.543 --> 00:34:57.863 bases, it stacks up. 00:34:57.923 --> 00:35:00.653 If you're factor in things like risk reduction, then 00:35:00.658 --> 00:35:01.883 you know it's a no-brainer. 00:35:02.354 --> 00:35:05.624 Duke: okay, and this is why I had to have you on the show, Paul, is just. 00:35:05.718 --> 00:35:07.608 It's a miracle app as far as I'm concerned. 00:35:07.608 --> 00:35:08.508 In the ServiceNow space. 00:35:08.508 --> 00:35:12.288 It's just talking about if I'm regulated, it's easy passes on 00:35:12.288 --> 00:35:16.098 my regulations, even if I'm not regulated, but I'm quality conscious. 00:35:16.103 --> 00:35:19.578 It's push button whenever I want, receive my test results. 00:35:19.968 --> 00:35:25.608 It's ridiculous savings of labor, which means I can push this app even 00:35:25.608 --> 00:35:30.618 wider, and as the product owner, I can get more, victories under my belt 00:35:30.618 --> 00:35:32.208 so I can move on to my next thing. 00:35:32.653 --> 00:35:32.943 Paul: Yeah. 00:35:33.093 --> 00:35:38.103 Duke: then you finally get Robert to shut up for two seconds about 00:35:38.433 --> 00:35:42.753 the doom and gloom if you don't have documentation about what you've built. 00:35:43.606 --> 00:35:45.046 it checks all the boxes. 00:35:45.136 --> 00:35:46.096 It checks all the boxes. 00:35:46.096 --> 00:35:50.513 So Paul, if somebody listened to this episode and they wanna like, find out 00:35:50.513 --> 00:35:52.008 more, how would they go ahead and do that? 00:35:52.108 --> 00:35:53.968 , and we'll still have links in the description below. 00:35:53.968 --> 00:35:54.838 Everybody take a shot. 00:35:55.194 --> 00:35:58.164 we will have a link in the description below for how to contact Automate Pro. 00:35:58.164 --> 00:35:59.934 But what else could they do, Paul? 00:36:00.189 --> 00:36:01.289 Paul: Yeah, , absolutely. 00:36:01.289 --> 00:36:03.209 I, I mean, I don't mind people reaching out to me. 00:36:03.209 --> 00:36:04.829 I'd love to speak about this stuff. 00:36:04.829 --> 00:36:06.359 You know, it's my, it is my baby. 00:36:06.389 --> 00:36:08.303 So, reach out to me in LinkedIn. 00:36:08.389 --> 00:36:09.559 happy to have a conversation. 00:36:09.739 --> 00:36:13.549 Obviously there's a website, www automate pro.com. 00:36:13.819 --> 00:36:15.109 loads of information on there. 00:36:15.109 --> 00:36:15.749 There's a contact button. 00:36:16.276 --> 00:36:19.299 the guys who were a super friendly team, we're all like me. 00:36:19.299 --> 00:36:20.906 I would say, and friendly. 00:36:20.943 --> 00:36:21.963 we love ServiceNow. 00:36:21.963 --> 00:36:23.073 We love everything about ServiceNow. 00:36:23.613 --> 00:36:24.933 Hit us up on the, the website. 00:36:24.933 --> 00:36:25.773 We'll get you sorted. 00:36:25.773 --> 00:36:27.123 let's have a conversation about it. 00:36:27.484 --> 00:36:28.954 Duke: All right, Paul, final War is yours. 00:36:29.589 --> 00:36:32.109 Paul: Um, oh, you caught me out there, Rob. 00:36:34.754 --> 00:36:35.144 Duke: My final 00:36:37.339 --> 00:36:37.919 CJ: Was that. 00:36:41.954 --> 00:36:42.644 Duke: episodes in. 00:36:45.629 --> 00:36:46.109 Paul: It's brilliant. 00:36:46.349 --> 00:36:46.799 No, no. 00:36:46.799 --> 00:36:47.279 Thanks. 00:36:47.279 --> 00:36:47.899 Uh, thanks Aaron. 00:36:48.199 --> 00:36:48.779 I'm Rob. 00:36:48.839 --> 00:36:50.699 Super, uh, great conversation. 00:36:50.704 --> 00:36:52.229 Love talking about this stuff as I say. 00:36:52.229 --> 00:36:55.259 So, uh, anytime you want me on again, happy to, happy to come in. 00:36:55.594 --> 00:36:56.224 Duke: Pleasure was ours. 00:36:56.224 --> 00:36:56.434 Paul. 00:36:56.434 --> 00:36:57.274 Thank you so much. 00:36:57.559 --> 00:36:57.999 CJ: Thanks Paul.