Elle: Chris,
welcome to the show.
Chris: Elle,
thank you so much.
I'm really excited to be here
and it's always good to, good
to talk with you.
Elle: Okay, well
let's dive right in.
Uh, I think we all know what
Adobe is, so tell us more
about what's your role, what
products do you care for?
Chris: Yeah, so I
focus on enterprise,
uh, product marketing
within Frame io and so.
Quick, like one-liner
of what Frame is, it's
a cloud collaboration
platform, but it's built
specifically for creatives.
So if we think about that,
like creative teams, when
they're going to launch
anything from like, uh,
campaigns, commercials, ads,
things like that, they have
to store their assets for work
in progress projects, right?
Video, photo design,
files, docs and more.
And then control access to
like their internal team,
so their, their peers.
External agencies, their
executives, freelancers,
and so they can do all
of that within frame io.
So a really like secure place
to store and collaborate, when
these projects are, are work
in progress for the creative
teams.
Elle: Ah, that's
super helpful.
Thanks for framing that up.
our subject for today is
around this, concept of
an having an ICP strategy.
So tell us more about what was
going on with Frame IO when
you realized you needed to
rethink that ICP strategy and
reengage with the buy team.
Yeah.
Chris: Yeah, absolutely.
So one of the things,
actually, one of the first
projects I. Went down
or paths I went down.
When I started at Frame
io was just looking at our
win-loss data and kind of what
was happening in the market
with, with frame io for the
enterprise space specifically.
But one of the initiatives
that came up is our
business unit really
wanted to re-accelerate,
or like accelerate our
run rate business, right?
And so.
For anyone out there who
might not know what run rate
business is, think about it
more as the shorter sales
cycle, more transactional
sometimes looked at as logo
acquisition, but for us
it was also departmental.
So specific departments,
especially like I mentioned,
what frame is the creative
teams, they typically have a
set amount of budget that's
smaller than let's say A
CMO, for example, right?
But there are great
opportunities to
land frame in there.
a much faster pace and
eventually grow into
what we call at Adobe
transformational deals
across the, the organization.
So we really wanted to focus
on accounts where we had
limited to no frame usage or
penetration, and we wanted
to get in there, get in with
the creative teams, with
the ideal users, and then,
actually expand from there.
So that, that is kind of
like the situation that we
wanted to dive in at the
start there.
Elle: Yeah.
Yeah.
You can always expect a good
result when you find the
right user and you hit 'em
with the right information.
So, can you help us help the
audience really understand
what this could look like?
So walk us through a
hypothetical example of
what an ICP might look
like in this world.
Chris: Yeah.
so this is where I like to
spend the most of my time
because I think coming from
a sales background, I always
like to start with sales
as a channel for marketing
and, and product marketing.
And so if I think about,
like, I'll go kind of high
level and then into an
example I. the way I went
to like approach this was,
let's first look at our
internal sales data, right?
Which is basic.
Where are we winning?
what are the verticals?
Where do we see
higher win rates?
As, as much as we can
find quality data, And
that was a big piece.
And for us, like Frame started
like really within the media
and entertainment space, but
we're rapidly expanding into
like what we call at a high
level brands, which could
be like retail, financial
services, uh, healthcare,
manufacturing, et cetera.
And so, you know, we see that
the win rates are actually
like growing there and there's
a good, good opportunity.
And so it's like,
okay, that's great.
And then within that,
what are the titles or
the personas within there
where we're seeing wins?
So, you know, you
could take a look at.
All of your wind data, and
this is where I like to,
you know, focus heavily
on the wind data, where we
win and not only look at
who, what are the companies
that we're, we're winning?
What is the trend from the
previous year to this, or like
the two years ago to this year
to look at like year over year
analysis, but also the titles
and the personas, and start
grouping those into categories
of who are we talking to.
That's actually driving
these deals forward.
and so that's what
we're able to do.
And then I think one of
the most important pieces,
like while that's objective
and data driven based on
what we have in our CRM
and other systems, the
beauty with something like
Gong or the call recorders
these days is you can
listen to customer calls.
And so from there,
what you want to do is
you actually want to.
Pick some of those customers
where you have wins, and
that's what we did is,
hey, let's pick an ideal
customer as we start to
mold it based on the data.
And let's actually, instead
of just listening to calls
across a bunch of customers,
let's focus in on 1, 2,
3 customers and actually
listen to calls all the way
through the sales cycle.
And not only see when that
champion's involved, but who
else they're getting involved.
How they're navigating.
you know, those conversations
and, and frankly like where
sales reps are running into
challenges because you have
to establish a champion, then
you have to go find users who
are gonna love the product.
And then you probably have
to go up to the ultimate
budget holder and, and pitch
an ROI story, especially if
finance or procurement gets
in or, or IT, and security.
Right.
So from there you can really
get a feel for the buyer
journey and where the personas
enter in the buyer journey.
and that is like a
big unlock for us.
'cause ultimately then what
you end up doing is you
go, okay, if I can take
a step back and know that
I not only need to market
my product to a specific
company, but I actually
need to market different.
Iterations or flavors
of messaging to
different personas.
So my create my video
creative leader is gonna
wanna know one thing.
the creative director who
might be overseeing the
entire creative campaign.
they might want to hear
a little bit of different
thing it and security is
gonna wanna know that.
Our commercial is not gonna
leak before it is meant to
launch and go out there.
and then finance is gonna
want to know ROI as as well
as an executive, you know,
and A CMO is gonna wanna
know how do we differentiate
our brand and move faster.
And so we actually took
these flavors and said,
let's focus on a narrow
audience instead of go going
after our entire, countless,
let's go after accounts
that fit within this ICP.
Let's go after the different.
personas within that and let's
actually tweak our messaging
based on who we're talking to.
And that actually like really
created quality pipeline and
accelerated how fast we were
able to move those deals.
So that's what we delve into.
Now, if you were to like, take
a look at like an example,
'cause it's like, okay,
your world, what is that?
Like let's say I had
Chris Clothing Inc.
Right?
Which is a global
retail company.
And so it's like, okay.
I know retail is a good
place we want to focus on,
but within there, I wanna
dive into the personas.
So I'm gonna go find the
folks, the creatives in
charge of video there, right?
And I'm gonna understand,
like, I'm gonna look at their
website and are they putting
videos on their website,
on their social channels?
Do I see them on tv,
on commercials, those
different pieces.
'cause I know that
they're focused on really
creating quality video.
But then I also know they're
probably selling like
budget for video to their
creative director who comes
from a design background.
So I need to talk to them
about speed, quality,
differentiation, those pieces.
They're ultimately
reporting up to A CMO.
They need to know about what's
driving the brand forward.
I. and then I know I have
to put in a flavor of it
who is gonna be focused
on security and finance,
who's gonna be like, Hey,
we have to actually like
figure out budget for this.
How are you gonna justify it?
So I'm gonna take all those
different angles of Chris
Clothing Inc. And understand,
hey, you're creating a
ton of video content.
I'm seeing it go out across
commercials, across YouTube,
across these different
channels, and I can go
in with these insights
to the right personas to
really craft my messaging
and do so, add sales,
things like that.
Elle: Got it.
Okay.
So for you it was really
about identifying the
right company to target as
part of that ICP and then
building the buy team.
And trying to use some
of the insights that you
got about that company to
engage with some of those
members of the buy team.
And then, what did you
guys do after that?
Like what happened after
you built out that buy team?
You had the right messaging
for the right persona for
every member of the buy team.
What did you guys
do with all of that
insight?
Chris: Yeah.
I think there's really
like two phases, right?
That especially at large
organizations, you have
to go through, right?
You have to sell internally
and then sell externally.
I. Uh, it's what I
always say it is product
marketing's role.
So like the first phase is
like sell internally, right?
So I go through and me and
my team go through all of
this data and we see, hey, we
have like a great idea of out
of all of the accounts that
exist that we want sellers and
marketing team to go after.
This set group of
accounts that represent
the largest opportunity.
That doesn't mean anything.
If I'm the only one who
knows that, or my team's the
only one that knows that,
then we have to go to the
head of marketing who we
have to convince to deploy
a campaign and, and actually
have everyone focus around
this and, and take a more
targeted approach instead of.
You know, the evergreen
stuff that's going on or
in addition to, but I also
need to get the sales leader
on board as well, right?
And so this is where taking
a data-driven approach and
like that objective approach
of sales data, product usage
data where you can, and
crafting the right story to
actually go pitch and sell
internally and say, Hey, I.
Let's focus this effort
really like, we can
unlock a lot here.
And so that's what we did.
We went to the head
of marketing, went
to the head of sales.
They were really
excited about it.
We got their buy-in
to go after it.
And then after that you have,
you know, this brief that you
create that is the overview,
the analysis, what the
messaging would look like, who
the personas are, so everyone
can sign off on this brief.
And then that becomes
your source of truth for
what you're gonna go and
deploy and expand upon.
And so from there, you're
spinning up working with
teams to spin up, landing
pages, different ads, pulling
in what case studies you
can use to help fuel those
ads and those landing pages.
Going to the business
development reps, the BDR
team, and equipping them
with messaging within their
sequences, going to the
sales team, letting them
know who they're going to
be talking to and how to.
really get, overcome
objections at different
stages, and so you have this
source of truth that ends
up kind of spreading out
throughout.
Elle: Yeah.
So from doing this super,
maybe it wasn't super
intensive, but you had
a super thorough, I will
say, data analysis to
craft the perfect ICP.
Understand the buy team.
You, you leveraged that to
create a hyper targeted.
Marketing campaign that
empowered both the campaign's,
demand gen side of the house
as well as your sellers.
very, very creative.
Now, what if I were a
PMM that wanted to try to
replicate this in my role?
Right?
So I'm trying to go through
the steps that you outlined.
You talked about.
Uh, being data intensive,
you talked about gong calls.
let's back up a minute and
just very quickly outline
what the steps would be
for PMM to replicate this.
Like one, I think
you said data.
So talk to me about data.
Like what about the data
do I need to look at?
Chris: Yeah.
So first you have to develop
your own conviction, right?
And data is the
best way to do it.
data is always like an
imperfect thing, but it
does get you, down the path,
which is how you kind of
develop your point of view.
So I'd say first,
analyze the sales data.
Right.
Sales data unlocks a
lot of insight into
what's going well.
especially if you're looking
at like what to target.
So you should look at wins
and losses For this, we
focused heavily on wins
because we wanna see how do
we put gasoline on the fire of
what's working.
Elle: Yeah.
You wanna know why you
win?
Yeah.
Chris: that's exactly right.
Right.
And so, 'cause you're also
making a trade off of like,
we are actually making
a decision to not focus.
On some area that
we could focus on.
So it's like where do we win
and how do we accelerate that?
And frankly, you're not gonna
get buy-in internally if you
don't come with data, because
that is the way you actually
get folks to, to think
differently about things.
So that's sales data.
You can layer in product
data where you have it,
that's always like a, a,
a great kicker of like how
your product's being used.
but find that data piece
that helps start your story.
That's the
first step.
Elle: Got it.
Got it.
Okay.
And you mentioned Gong calls.
How do Gong calls play a role?
Chris: So I, and again, I
think this is me coming from
a sales background, is I love
talking to customers and I
love hearing from customers.
And frankly, like one of the,
the interesting pieces of
product marketing is like,
we need to be able to speak
internally on behalf of our
customers, and we need to
speak our customer's language.
And so.
You know, with, Gong and these
other platforms that do the
call recordings, it's, it's
become amazing because I can
be walking my dogs and I can
listen to
any
calls.
Right.
Elle: Yeah.
It's such a powerful
insight for pmms.
It's like un unlimited
customer conversations
at your fingertips.
Chris: it's, the best.
And like all these platforms,
again, there's a
lot of
great
ones.
and the nice thing too is they
now have like AI insights,
so they actually, I. Do these
little summary of notes and
you can like pull out the
ones you want to go listen to.
But, but the whole point
being is you can actually
hear how customers are
talking about their problem,
talking about who they
have to get buy-in from.
And so that is establishing
the voice of the customer.
So now I have this data that
gives me my perspective on
where to focus on, and I'm
going into this meeting
with, again, head of
marketing, head of sales,
maybe head of product.
And I'm not saying.
Hey, this is what
Chris believes.
I'm saying, Hey, this is what
this company is saying and
this company is saying, and
here's what our data says.
So it's like a, it,
it creates a story of
don't take it from me.
Do we wanna like replicate
this with similar
lookalike
customers?
Elle: that's right.
Validation.
Chris: Exactly.
Exactly.
Elle: Yeah.
Right, exactly.
So I wanna circle back to
something that you mentioned
earlier that I thought
was such a good idea.
It probably took
a lot of time.
I imagine a lot of calls,
a lot of deal cycles that
that I've been exposed
to can sometimes be
lengthy and there's a
lot of calls involved.
But you mentioned that
you would hone in on two
or three customers, and
you would listen to every
sales conversation from
deal open to deal close.
I'm curious, anything
surprising from that as
just as a PMM, that's a
lot of sales conversations
to listen into and you
really get insight to
the entire deals cycle.
What, what did you learn?
Anything insightful
or surprising?
Chris: So first, I agree
it does take a lot of
time and you have to find
you know, go for a walk,
listen to a few calls.
Don't be afraid to skip
the 10 minute call.
That's gonna go nowhere.
But I would challenge any
product marketers listening
to this to say like, how
many deals have you been
on from start to finish to
really understand what your
customer, it's the only way
to do it, in my opinion.
So it, it is a worth
it grind out work.
The interesting insight
that I came up with is.
and, and this might seem so
obvious, but it's important
to call it, these are people.
These are real people
with real problems that
have life outside of work.
And the thing is, is they
have very limited time.
We all have such limited time.
We're so busy, and so
people's time is valuable.
And so as a product marketer,
my job is to get to the value.
As quick as possible and
help my salespeople in this
instance get to the value
as quick as possible and
really give them the so what.
And so I had this kind
of enlightened moment, if
you will, of everything
I do that goes external.
I should have that thought.
This person has very
little time and I need
to really value it.
So it's like every ad,
every blog, every customer
story, and every event that
we're bringing people to.
Am I providing them value?
Am I giving them that takeaway
that's not just clickbait
and in it for me, but it's
like they're coming away
with something actionable.
That's what I've
like obsessed about
since going through an
exercise like
Elle: And, and how quickly
can you get to the value
when you're looking at their
time as, being something of
a, that they're giving to you?
Chris: it's exactly right.
Right.
And again, it's like attention
spans are down, time is down.
And like, I want you build
trust by providing value.
And that's, that's really
what our job is.
Elle: Yeah, exactly.
So, okay, you did this
huge data analysis on
your, your sales data.
You focused in on why you win.
You blended that with
voice of customer from
sales conversations.
And then you shot this around
to your marketing leaders,
to the sales leaders.
You've got buy-in, you've
built out the campaign.
This must have been monstrous
to roll out with a lot
of different stakeholders
across sales and marketing.
I guess like talk through
like what did the rollout
process look like?
You know, did, how
did you enable sales?
Did you have to do like
road, internal road
shows or workshops?
You know, like maybe what kind
of content did you have to
prepare for the salespeople?
Chris: Yeah.
Yeah, well, you know better
than anyone, some of the
values of, companies like
Twilio is write it down.
So I think the first thing
is, what I mentioned was
this the source of truth.
Where is the source of
truth that anyone can
go to, to understand
what this initiative is?
And, and again, going back,
even selling internally,
the so what behind it?
Why are we making this bed?
So that first doc that we
went in and get buy-in,
and sometimes it turns into
a deck, it's so important
and people go back to it.
And then you're exactly right.
It does become a
bit of a road show.
so again, the marketing
team you mentioned like
campaign marketing growth,
like those different folks,
you get them on a call and
you go through it, right?
The part that's
important for them.
And then you branch off
into, okay, I need help
with ad creation, creative
that's gonna go into those,
those types of pieces.
I'll get into that
more in a second.
Sales is the same way.
I like to branch off BDR
from, account executives
because I think it's a
slightly different thing.
So then I like to
do A BDR enablement
with the BDR manager.
I like to do sales
enablement with the sales
leaders because they need
to be bought in, as well.
And so it does feel like
a lot, but in those three
conversations, if you
manage your time well,
you can get a lot done.
You just have to be very
specific with what they get.
The, thing that I think is
really important for folks to
look at, 'cause you go, oh,
this is a whole new campaign.
We're spinning up.
We actually used a lot
of previous content
we had, and so you can,
like Retap Creative, you had
content, you had, we looked
at case studies and I, me
and my team read through
case studies and we're like,
okay, we have these four
personas we want to go after.
Where do we have quotes
from those personas and
what case studies, and
then what creative do we
have in those case studies?
Okay, great.
Those are ads.
Quote from that persona,
the creative from that
persona and like that
was able to be reused.
So we didn't need to go
find a new case study.
Right.
You probably have a lot of the
information and then a lot of
the creative and the content.
'cause we have Frame and Adobe
really has a best in class
creative team,
so
anything we produce
is, is, is, top notch.
It's, I mean, it's like
one of the
coolest things ever.
Yeah, it's amazing.
Like people produce unreal
stuff, so like, we're
not gonna go create it
on our own, like as a
product marketing team.
so reuse is good.
And then again, like emails
and, and BDR, like a lot of
that messaging is how do we
give them that structure to,
uh, kind of spin and create
their own, pieces of it, well.
Elle: Yeah.
Yeah.
It's interesting that
you included BDRs.
'cause sometimes I feel
like they're left out of
the enablement process, but
they're so critical in terms
of getting foot in the door.
Chris: there's some of my
favorite.
I
started as A
BDR.
Elle: Yeah.
They're full of energy.
Love it.
Love to the BDRs.
Chris: It's a hard job.
It's a very hard
job, so I, I have a
lot of respect
for, for
Elle: I believe it.
I believe it.
Okay.
So after you launched, what
did this look like from
a customer's perspective?
Like what kind of content
was included in the
scope of the campaign?
Chris: Yeah.
So I, I think this is
the part that like,
was the coolest to me.
'cause it was a, a kind
of like circle the wagon
in the right way, type
of a strategy, right?
So if we go back to like.
Crisp Clothing Inc. Let's
say that was within our
target account list, right?
A CMO is getting specific
ads that are targeted.
They're probably not getting
the initial outreach from
sales or BDRs 'cause they're
too high up and we know we
need to build a champion,
but they're getting like
brand differentiation,
those types of messaging.
a little bit later
in the process.
But like we really, from
the start, it was like.
Video creatives and creative
leaders or creative ops
leaders getting a set message,
having BDRs hit them with
a very specific message.
We were actually sending them
a lot around case studies and
proof, so it is again, like
a, don't take it from us.
We were leading with insights
and things that would be like,
here's someone in a similar
company in a similar or role.
Doing it.
We should talk about how you
could do this for your org.
So really insights
driven messaging and ads.
And then like I said, as
we open the door, we're
not turning off the engine.
That's, our job's
not done there.
We know that eventually
this is gonna go to A CMO.
So at that point, yes, we
do want them to get ads.
We do want them to start
seeing frame in our
brand, in their messaging.
And the same thing that we
started talking about is, um.
IT and procurement.
Very similar thing like
security type messaging
and, and ROI type messaging
because at some point
someone internally is
going to have to sell that.
And, and the thing that I
always go back to with our
team is those folks, they
are best in class creatives.
They were never
hired to be sellers.
Selling stuff
internally is hard.
We have challenges selling
stuff internally, so like
we know they're gonna be
putting themselves on the
line at some point when
we're not in the room.
So how do we help surround it
and build that story for them?
And then we had ROI
calculators and presentations
that they could share
internally at the right
time to build that
Elle: Very cool.
So empowering the
champion as well.
Yeah, very smart.
What I think is so
sophisticated is that you
have this buy team that
you've identified, and then
you have this, hyper targeted
content that ladders up to
each member of the buy team,
but timing of everything.
When you're doing an A
BM campaign, that must
be so sophisticated.
'cause you have, however, X
number of accounts, I'm just
gonna throw out a hundred.
Even if you have
thousands, right?
You have that many accounts,
but then that many individual
stakeholders within those
accounts that you're trying
to engage with, but you
wanna hit 'em at the right
time, that's appropriate
for that specific account.
I guess how did you do that?
Like, how did you
figure that out?
I realize it's probably a
multi-pronged solution across.
Sales and marketing, but
any insights you can share?
Chris: I mean, I think
there's a lot of great systems
to like, systematically
run those programs now.
And a lot of folks on my
marketing team a lot smarter
than me who can help.
You know, we, we've always
heard the, the message
wherever you go of like engage
the right person at the right
time with the right message.
And so, you know, luckily
there's a lot of technology
out there to go and
do that the right way.
It's never going to be.
Perfect.
But again, I think like going
back to being able to even
look at personas and lead
with the right message is
a big piece of it, right?
Because like I think
sometimes we go, oh, okay,
like we want to talk about
how great our product is.
It.
no one cares.
We, they want to know what
it's gonna do for them.
And I think, you know, I'm
pretty realistic in knowing
that like A CMO is probably
not gonna like, just cold want
to talk to us or, you know,
even a chief creative officer,
like they're gonna need to
build up something internally.
And so our thing is like,
hey, when you go into
these accounts, even
as A BDR, it's like.
Instead of focusing any
messages on maybe that
like C-suite at the start,
like, let's go director
level, let's go manager
level, let's do the creative
technologist, now let's do
the video creative and let's
massage those messages.
And then we have a team that
can turn on the engine of
the CMOs and build that case.
And at that
point, account executive
gets involved too, and
they kind of have the
clout sales leaders can get
involved and reached out.
And now we have this
executive level engagement
that we can
pull
on.
Elle: It is so sophisticated,
so coordinated.
I love it.
So great.
okay, last question for
you on this topic, Chris.
Let's say, um, you know,
for our product marketers
out there who are working
on it, ICP strategy, they're
so inspired by your story.
They wanna go out and,
and build a campaign for
their ICP or a narrative.
What advice do
you have for them?
Chris: Be customer
obsessed, like fall in
love with your customers.
they will take you to.
what the answer is honestly,
I think sometimes we try to
like over-engineer our own
thought process and stuff
around these and, and find
that like silver bullet.
Just understand your
customers, listen to them
and they will tell you
exactly what you need to do.
So just be
obsessed with them.
Elle: I love it.
You wear the customer's shoes.
It's such a great value.
Okay.
All right, so now it is
time for our next segment.
This is such a fun segment.
It's the message critique.
so Chris, this is where
we as product marketing
experts get to analyze
real world messaging.
Um, here's the fun part.
You, my guests get to
choose the company.
Uh, so before we get
started, I wanna share
some ground rules.
So you're gonna pick the
company, we're gonna talk
through three things.
First, you're gonna tell
me one thing that you
love about the company's
product or messaging,
like what's working,
what's really standing
out about the product.
And then second, you're
gonna share something
you wish the PMM maybe
would've done differently.
Maybe it's something
that could have made
the message clearer or
stronger, more impactful.
Use a customer story.
It could be any
number of things.
And then third.
tell me how they can
iterate or take the message
to the next level or
their creative campaigns.
They could do cool content,
they could think about,
something of that nature.
so no negativity, just a
thoughtful, constructive,
super fun critique.
Ready to go.
Chris: Yep.
This is perfect.
Let's do
it.
Elle: Okay.
So tell me about a product
or company that may have
caught your attention.
I.
Chris: Okay.
I am going to go with
one that has been on my
mind, quite a lot lately.
It's superhuman.
Have you heard of Superhuman?
I.
Elle: Only when you mentioned
it to me the other day,
but I have not otherwise
had not heard of them.
So I'm going to
superhuman.com.
Chris: Go to superhuman.com.
It is, you know, if
you wanna know what
it is, big line here.
But it is the most productive
email app ever made.
which is intriguing, but
it's basically, better way
to go about your email.
that's like the simple
way that I would put it.
I don't use it.
I've just heard about it
and I've been looking at
them, quite a bit from a
product standpoint, which is
interesting.
Elle: So I pull up
their homepage and
super clean, very crisp.
Their big headline is
say, four hours per
person every single week.
So that tells me right
away, okay, the value
is gonna be time save.
But tell me more
about the messaging.
What are you loving about it?
Chris: Yeah, so this one's
interesting because the
headline doesn't say what
it is, but it gives you the,
so what, which I think is
actually really interesting.
So save four hours
that brings me in.
I like that.
so I do feel the, so what
there, and then that, first
line that I mentioned,
it's the most productive
email app ever made.
Very
mean, my, my big thing is I do
not need to scroll to actually
figure out objectively.
What it is, I now know
what it is and the so what
behind it without having a
scroll, whether I'm on my
laptop or I'm on my phone,
it's all above the fold.
and I get it.
And then, you know, I
think it's supported here.
Collaborate faster, get more
done with AI powered email.
would say like that kind
of got pulled with the,
say four hours as well.
I like the idea
of collaboration.
AI powered email.
I think everyone's
putting AI and they're
either H one or H two.
but very descriptive is, is
what I like and very easy to
consume
at
the
Elle: I love that.
I love that.
One thing, curious about your
perspective on this feedback
that I've gotten multiple
times in my career is, to
avoid using absolute language.
So for example, they
have Superhuman, is the
most productive email
app ever, ever made?
that's a pretty
bold statement.
Well, I'm just curious
your thoughts on it.
Chris: I agree.
I think it is bold.
It's a good point.
I think, back it with data and
so I think like one of the,
one of the pieces I'd say here
is like, you have such a great
stat with save four hours
per person every single week.
And I think even if you
scroll down, it's like
saves teams over 15 million
hours every single year.
Fly through your email
twice as fast as before.
So like the one thing I would
probably think about, but,
but I agree where it's, you
know, is it the most, do I
have to say it's the most, do
I believe that as a prospect?
I think maybe a little
bit of messaging around.
Why it saves like,
what is that?
other piece could be
interesting there, right?
We're a little loose
with most productive.
We're a little loose
with collaborate
faster, get more done.
It's like what is the
thing that makes you
be able to do that?
That would be one
thing I would try to
probably massage out in
that
H
Elle: Sure.
Yeah.
I'm kind of surprised
that the first thing they
put on there is that it's
built for Gmail or Outlook.
That must be for their
customers, something
like a top priority, not
differentiator necessarily,
but capability that they
would need to highlight.
I'm surprised that the AI
powered inbox assistant
isn't higher, but I'm not
their target customer, so.
I wouldn't necessarily know,
but I do love the stats
that they throw out here.
Chris: I love
the stats and I actually
love that email is the
biggest problem hiding
in plain sight, which is
further down the page.
I'm wondering if they ever
explored pulling that up
'cause it's such a yes.
I. Problem statement and like
this is like their messaging
doc on a page, which is cool.
Like we spend hours on
email, we often reply late.
That's, yep.
I feel that.
don't even reply.
Yep.
I feel that we lose deals.
It's
like, well what does that lead
to?
Makes sense?
Like you and you start
saying, we lose deals.
Okay.
This is for salespeople.
Block our teams.
Oh, it's for more than
salespeople, miss our goals.
We all feel that
not anybody's fault.
Like this is actually
like such a great
messaging statement.
I'm like, Ooh, do we
consider pulling this up?
AB tested a little bit.
Try to get problem
statement up a bit.
so, so they have some
like really good stuff
littered in throughout.
Elle: They do a really
good job with empathy
in articulating that
through their copy.
Chris: Yes.
And that is the thing.
We all get overwhelmed
with email and they're
like, it's not your fault.
It's like, but we
all, we all do.
so it is interesting when
you talked about like most
productive, it, it, you
scroll down, they obviously
do superhuman AI that they
probably had to introduce
as their first scroll, but
when they get into their
value props like respond
faster to what matters most.
It's like, that's another
one I would actually
probably think about
pulling up higher because
that feels tangible to me.
So they have like a lot
of.
Great messaging and it's
very, what I love is I
scroll is like follow
up on time every time.
Share and comment with you.
It's, it is very
clean, succinct.
I see it right as I say it
and it keeps hooking me to
go deeper and
deeper, which
Elle: it does.
It does.
Great job.
Superhuman pmms.
We love it.
10 outta 10.
Chris: Love it.
Huge fan.
So it is good.
And like you said,
it's, it's clean, it's
creative centric on the
start too, which is nice.
I
like to see that.
Elle: Yeah.
Yeah.
So when we were chatting
ahead of this conversation,
you mentioned maybe another
company you were looking at.
Do you still have
them on your mind?
Chris: I do, I do.
So the other one, which I
use a lot and I'm sure people
have heard is Airtable.
so again.
Of course.
as part of this fun exercise,
like you start looking at
all of the, the companies
and, you know, pick ones.
And I, I, I love Airtable.
I think it's amazing.
There's a, an individual who,
used to be at, at Frame io.
She was an absolute power
user of Airtable to show
like all of the things
that you could do with it.
It's an
amazing, amazing,
Elle: Yeah, I've used it at
like almost every company
I've ever looked at for
as long as I can remember.
Yeah,
Chris: and it really is great.
It has this like simplicity
yet, you know, there's a
lot of power behind it,
but it's an interesting
space right now, right?
Because a lot of these, what
I would call as a novice,
like project management
tools are like a better
version of a spreadsheet.
'cause we all end
up falling back to
spreadsheets like they are.
Becoming a lot more.
And it's interesting
to see like what space
they're going after.
So we go into this
one and we see digital
operations for the AI era.
You mentioned this
on superhuman.
I'm not the persona, probably
buyer persona
for
Airtable.
I don't
think I don't know what
digital operations is.
I mean, I get it as I say
it, but I'm like, is that a
category they're going after?
Maybe it's a Forest or
Gartner kind of thing.
AI era.
you know, I think it's like.
Okay.
And then when I see create
modern business apps to
manage and automate critical
processes, I, my thing is,
is like, are they an AI app
builder or are they trying
to do that?
That was the piece that
I was like, huh, what is
Elle: Yeah, right.
Would this be like for
the COO business unit org?
Like who is this for?
Is it for PMs, is it
for, yeah, it's really
hard to decipher.
Chris: it's a little,
you know, ambiguous.
And it might be because it's
new category creation and
ai and frankly, like I do
know this, like Airtable.
Can be so much, but that
can also be overwhelming
as a prospect or a user
or someone looking at it.
And so I really empathize
with the product marketers
for Airtable because it's
like, how do you, not over
promise, but you still
paint the like picture of
where, where it's going
and where they need to go.
But when I see modern business
apps, I'm not really sure
that can mean so
much different thing,
especially with like
AI coders and things
like that coming out
in the world.
Elle: So when I scroll
down, I see agility at
scale for every function
and immediately I think So
you're everything to everyone,
Chris: Yes,
Elle: which is what all
the, all the strategy gurus
out there say not to do.
so, but I'm curious, you know,
what, what advice do you have
for the pmms over at Airtable?
What do you think they
need to do with first,
first order of business?
Chris: So this is where I go
back to ICP and my exercise.
Like I know that they want
to evolve and push the
envelope and go, but I think
we all, like, I would also
encourage to look at where
can you win and is it within
like the core competency?
'cause it's, they're pushing
a lot of explore app building,
and like that modern business
app and those pieces.
And I totally get that, but
I'd be like, how do I get
someone to get the aha moment
without scrolling and above?
The, the fold.
I think that is
the, the big piece.
And, and to be honest,
like my advice would
be can we simplify?
that's what I would be looking
at because as someone who
uses Airtable, I don't use
it in any of the way that
I see on this homepage.
And
so I think it's
what
they
want businesses.
that's
Elle: so interesting.
Chris: Yeah.
Elle: Wow.
That's very,
very surprising.
Chris: And so it's like
how do we make sure we
make it obvious and make it
very simple and then earn
the right to expand the
opportunities from there?
So go back to ICP and core
use cases.
Elle: Right, right.
Or perhaps they're trying
to do a pivot, and the
use case that you are
most familiar with is no
longer like a strategic
focus for the company,
but even in that case.
Still focusing on ICP for
this new use case would be
helpful to tell, to get their,
their story to be a little
punchier, a little clearer.
Chris: Yeah.
I mean, and it, it
is a great point.
Like as they push into
these areas, it's like maybe
they already have a lot of
traction in, in other areas.
I just always question 'em.
Like there's a lot of people
do, a lot of, most people use
it the way, you know, I and
our teams use it, and then I.
You know, they're,
they're pushing someone
else, but how do you
get, how do you get both?
And then like, I'm kind
of interested in like,
how do I get there?
Right now it feels
a bit overwhelming.
It's like, what would I
want to do within like
marketing that they have on
this page of like automate
campaign creation, execution,
drive sales, and improve.
that's not the
way I ever saw it.
And
so,
It's interesting.
It's really
interesting.
Elle: It's interesting.
I am very curious though,
about what the imagery
that they have that
show kind of some of the
vision or capabilities.
it, it gets me intrigued.
I'll
Chris: So I love that
you call this out, and
I actually think this is
a really important one.
I'd, I'd love your take on
this is I love product imagery
on
website,
Elle: yes.
I'm, I'm for it.
Yes.
Oh, yes.
Yeah.
I don't like illustrations
No, gimme the screenshot.
I wanna see what it does.
Chris: Yes, I, I
completely agree.
And so like, again, frame
IO beauty of it is our
product designers are
best in class as well.
So like I love our ui,
which is good 'cause I
am in product marketing
there, so I want it all
over the place, everywhere.
I'm glad you feel the same
because I just want someone to
be able to like read and then
quickly get the
visuals
so they
Elle: Yeah.
The thing is when you don't
use real product imagery
and you just have some maybe
attractive, but it's just
an illustration to me that
as a customer that tells me
that something's not real.
You don't have something
that's actually real.
So it, it diminishes
my faith or, or it, um,
kind of puts some, uh.
I guess question into
mind into how much of
what you're showing me
is actually a capability
versus just marketing fluff.
Chris: Which I think is so
important in this AI era.
Let's go
back to their, their
call
because but I think a lot
of executives and customers
are challenged with.
Is this real or is this
just part of the pitch?
And so to your point, I think
as we start to like push the
envelope of what's real versus
what's not, the ability to
show it and bring it to life
is, is absolutely critical.
And honestly, I think it
could be a differentiator
when being compared
against other companies.
Elle: I totally
agree with you.
Very helpful.
Alright, Airtable.
We love your product.
We're very intrigued.
We wanna hear, more.
Okay.
So Chris, before we go, I
wanna have a gratitude moment
and say thank you so much
for your willingness to come
on and share your expertise
with me and the PM community.
Thank you so much.
I know I personally get so
inspired by conversations
like this and truthfully
makes me wonder how my
guests get to be so amazing.
So, I know for me the way that
I've grown as a PMM is I've
been shaped and my skills have
been honed in by the pmms that
surrounded me in my career.
So I wanna ask you, who
are one or two pmms who
have really impacted
you in your career?
Chris: You of course for
bringing me on the this show.
I really do
appreciate it
and it's awesome to be working
with a great PMM and,
and think through
these different things.
'cause that's
how we learn too.
But I, you know, throughout my
career I've been really lucky.
I had Scott Fallon,
Collin Zaleski, who
got me into product
marketing, uh, originally.
Uh, at a startup I was
at, they are absolutely
amazing at Twilio.
Was lucky to work for
Vanessa Thompson and then
Dave Berg, and then work
with Taylor Del, and, and all
actually like very different
types of pmms, which is an
absolutely amazing thing.
And then, you know, like I
said, frame io I, we are a
product for creatives and
my, manager is, his name is.
Amazing PMM crafts,
like unreal narratives.
He also like used to
shoot commercials, so
comes from like an ultra
creative background.
he's unbelievable.
And so, um, you know, I've
never been like, challenged
to push myself more than,
than I have with him.
And so I just keep getting
luckier and luckier honestly,
as I, I have all my career.
So I am very humble and
very grateful and have
a lot of hard work to do
to, to consider myself a
good PMM.
Elle: Oh, that's awesome.
I'm sure they're so,
flattered to hear that.
Amazing.
Okay, my last question
for you, Chris.
Where else can we
access your expertise?
Is it just best to
find you on LinkedIn?
Chris: Yes.
as a, uh, LinkedIn fan person,
and that's where I started
my career.
That
is the
place
to go, uh, for all,
all networking.
But yes, please
find me on LinkedIn.
Please reach out and connect.
Um,
Elle: We,
Chris: Happy to
talk to, to product
marketers.
Elle: Again, thank you so
much Chris, and thank you
PMM listeners for coming on
this adventure with us today.
I hope this episode leaves
you with inspiration to take,
uh, with you in the next
steps in your own journey.