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Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.

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I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson,
New York Times best selling

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author of The Horse Boy, The Long
Ride Home, and The Healing Land.

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Before I jump in with today's
guest, I just want to say a huge

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thank you to you, our audience,
for helping to make this happen.

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I have a request.

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If you like what we do, please
like, subscribe, tell a friend.

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It really helps us get this work done.

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As you might know from my
books, I'm an autism dad.

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And over the last 20 years,
we've developed several

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equine assisted, neuroscience
backed certification programs.

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If you'd like to find out more
about them, go to newtrailslearning.

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com.

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So without further ado,
let's meet today's guest.

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Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.

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Many of us are used to the equine
assisted thing being a sort of a

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European na white American type thing,
and we don't often consider that it

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might actually go a bit beyond that.

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So I'm really excited today to
have Brandy Tom have, who is the

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second executive director of the
Native American Humane Society.

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We've all heard of the Humane Society.

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Again, this was something that came at
the Humane Society in America, as we know.

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It came out of animal suffering largely
in cities particularly draft animals

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like horses being, you know, dying
in the shafts in the streets, and

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people saying, you know, we should
actually do something about this,

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and, well, things are better, however.

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When I went to the Quis Film Festival in
Montana in September of 2025, I met Brandy

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who was fronting the newly formed Native
American Humane Society and bringing to

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our attention a whole bunch of oh gosh,
animal welfare issues that actually

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affect us all, even though we might be
living in different cultural contexts.

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And I think it just adds an
incredible perspective to our

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work that allows us to broaden it,
deepen it, gain more understanding.

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And you're gonna see what I mean as this
conversation unfolds because there are

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very different ways of looking at animals,
animal assisted stuff, animal welfare,

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that have as much to do with culture as
they have to do with, if you like fact.

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So I don't wanna spoil it for everyone.

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So without further ado, Brandy, thank
you so much for coming on the show.

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Please tell us who you are,
what you do, and why you do it,

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and then let's go from there.

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Brandy Tomhave: Sure.

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Well, thank you so much for having me.

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I am really thrilled to
be joining you today.

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So as you mentioned, I am the
second executive director of the

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Native American Humane Society.

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I am an enrolled member of the Choctaw
Nation, which is located in Oklahoma.

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You probably can't help but notice
that I am very white passing.

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And I mentioned that because being a
Native American, a Native American in

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the United States is it's complicated.

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We all share a painful
and traumatic history.

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You know, my own family walked along the
trail the Trail of Tears from Georgia

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to well ultimately ended in Oklahoma.

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We stopped in Arkansas and I
think decided that was enough.

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I think that our identity politics are
different than the identity politics of

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other minorities in the United States.

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Native Americans are only
about 2% of the population.

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But very little is understood about
Native Americans today and why their

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status is different than any other
Americans in the United States.

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We have a very specific political
relationship with United States

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as a result of treaties and
statutes and Supreme Court cases.

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So that.

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Affirm the sovereignty of tribes.

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And so if you're an enrolled member of
a tribe you are not so much a racial

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minority as a citizen of a dependent
sovereign nation within the United States.

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And if you don't remember anything else
I say today, that's really probably

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the most important thing you'll learn
because that fact is what everything

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else we're gonna talk about flows from.

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The, the trauma of the, not only
the history that Native Americans

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share but the, the damage that it
continues to do and how that trauma

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and damage is less a matter of moral
failings of individuals than systemic

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failures of government systems.

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And and whatever happens to
people, happens to their animals.

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And okay.

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So,

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Rupert Isaacson: alright.

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So why, you know, you could have just,
I know you're a lawyer and I know

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that your husband Jeff is a lawyer

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Brandy Tomhave: Oh yeah.

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Rupert Isaacson: And that you have
spent your professional lives, you know,

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working on behalf of Native American.

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Rights in various ways,
which needs to be done.

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Why did you turn your
attention to animals?

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Brandy Tomhave: You know, I, that
is a really good question because

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I certainly wasn't looking for it.

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I will tell you what I was
doing immediately before.

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Okay.

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Two things.

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I had worked very closely with the Navajo
Nation to help stand up the first cancer

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treatment center on any Indian reservation
to make local culturally sensitive cancer

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treatment accessible to native families
who otherwise have no opportunity to to

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deal with that, that disease in a way that
gives 'em any chance to, of surviving it.

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And then I had also just represented the
president of the Navajo Nation in this

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multi jurisdictional effort to improve the
systemic response to missing and murdered

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indigenous people on the Navajo nation.

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Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

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Brandy Tomhave: And that's really like,
so one's access to cancer treatment.

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The other one's access to ju justice.

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You're right.

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Yeah.

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And so I think I'm very drawn to
causes that try to provide access

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where none has otherwise existed,
and that's only an issue in

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under-resourced, overlooked communities.

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And I, I, I have always been
inspired by those kinds of causes.

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And you know, I, I wanna
help and have some impact.

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And it, and that's in my own small way,
how I have found a, a, a path forward,

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you know, right towards that goal.

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And then I, I learned about, I,
I'm embarrassed to tell you, I

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had never noticed the animals.

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I had spent 25 years out on the
Navajo Nation working in the deep res.

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Every cause I've ever worked on, doesn't
matter how large or small straightforward

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or complex, every conversation starts
at someone's table in the deep res.

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And, and my job has been to then carry
that conversation forward from someone's

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home or office to, you know, the council
chambers, to the president's office, to

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Congress, to the White House ultimately.

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And, I had seen dogs and I, you know,
you can't visit a reservation without

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noticing, you know, dogs and cows and
horses, you know, outside community

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spaces where you just don't see them
where I live now in Baltimore I'd

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never really given them a thought.

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And then the president of
the Navajo Nation asked me to

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accompany him to a local animal
shelter in Flagstaff, Arizona.

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And I had no idea why he asked
me to jump in the backseat.

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And I was like, you know, all right,
I'll, I'll, I'll go along with this.

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I have no choice.

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And that really changed my life.

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And it wasn't the dogs, it was the
people in the shelter that I found

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so shocking because they were sort
so casual with their racism, frankly.

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They said to then president, this

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Rupert Isaacson: was
outside of the res, right?

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Mm-hmm.

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Brandy Tomhave: Flagstaff.

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Mm-hmm.

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Yeah.

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Flagstaff is a border town.

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Yeah.

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A college town, a wealthy town.

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Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

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Brandy Tomhave: That, that's a rather

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Rupert Isaacson: nice place.

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Yeah.

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I've been there.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Brandy Tomhave: To the Navajo Nation.

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And so, you know, it's some, it's
someplace you're gonna travel through

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if you visit the Grand Canyon.

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Yeah.

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And and so the folks at this shelter,
I looked at the president of the Navajo

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nation and said, well, you really need
to do something about your res dogs.

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40% of the dogs in our shelter
come from the reservation.

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And and then the, the conversation
kind of deteriorated from there.

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One of my,

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and let me give you an
example of how, so I took it

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Rupert Isaacson: once more.

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Quick question.

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Yeah.

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Why did the president of the Navajo
Nation take you to this place?

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Brandy Tomhave: He had been invited
and I think he had been invited to

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Rupert Isaacson: to be lectured.

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Brandy Tomhave: Yeah.

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Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

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Because,

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Brandy Tomhave: because the dogs that
were being taken from the Western

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agency of the Navajo Nation were
seen by this non-profit organization

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as a drain on their resources.

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Right.

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But this non-profit organization
was providing, it's like,

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Rupert Isaacson: why are you
abandoning all your dogs?

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We are the ones mopping up the mess.

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Come on, do something about it.

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Brandy Tomhave: Yes.

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Rupert Isaacson: That
was the message, right?

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Yeah,

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Brandy Tomhave: correct.

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But the nonprofit organization
had a contract with the county

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to provide these services.

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So it was for all county residents,
and President Nez rightly reminded

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them that Navajo Nation families.

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Our county residents too.

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They're paying sales tax, they pay
county taxes just like everybody else.

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And this nonprofit organization
just didn't have the right to

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decide which residents they were
going to provide services to.

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That was really not a conversation
I had any business in, you

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know, participating directly.

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But I did have a question
which they entertained for me.

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And that was, well, how do you
know those dogs are strays?

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And they said, well, you know,
tourists will call us and tell

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us that they see a dog outside
of, you know, a store or a hotel.

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And so we send up our
van and collect them.

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And there is frankly just no
way of that, let me back up.

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Mm-hmm.

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There was no system, there was no effort
to determine whether those dogs were

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owned or unowned, which is problematic
because on the Navajo nation, like

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many tribes and frankly lots of rural
communities owned dogs run around when

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they're, you know, humans are, are
out doing their thing during the day.

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The dogs are, are too.

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There wasn't a process of like, you
know, notification, giving an owner

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the opportunity to learn that their
dog had been taken and where their dog

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had been taken to and where and how.

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Right.

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People won't color in their

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Rupert Isaacson: dog saying, this dog
belongs to such and such a person, blah.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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Brandy Tomhave: Right.

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And I think that there.

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There are just kind of
inherent judgments made.

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We all make judgments about each other.

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But when you act upon those judgments
in kind of such a definitive way, it can

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be absolutely devastating to a family.

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Yeah.

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Right.

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You come home and you're, you
know, your your dog's gone.

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Your, your kid's best friend is gone.

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You know, your, your companion is gone.

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And so what really struck me was that
these were really nice people doing a

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really great service for the county,
trying really hard without enough

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resources, but attitudinally, they
just thought about Navajo families as

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being kind of inherently different.

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Rupert Isaacson: Well, probably neglectful
that, that would've been their thought.

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Yeah.

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And so I just, I want to bring
the conversation for a moment.

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So listeners and people watching this will
probably be wondering, okay, well this

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is interesting, but what does, what has
this got to do with equine assisted stuff?

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Alright.

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Yeah.

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Well, just in for context equine
assisted is also part of animal assisted.

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And as we all know, those of us who
particularly follow say horse boy method

00:13:05.073 --> 00:13:09.253
or any of those types of things is
that we don't just work with horses.

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We are working with any social animal
that we are hoping that, a person with

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a need is going to form a relationship
with, and then we can work within that.

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So anyone who's running a therapeutic
riding place, if the kid is into the

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dog, not into the horse, well hey, great.

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We're now gonna work with the dog.

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We might bring the horse in later.

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You know, so, and we are gonna talk about
horses as they relate to this as well.

00:13:34.773 --> 00:13:39.123
So don't, if you are thinking,
well how does, how's this relevant?

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Hold that thought.

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'cause we are, I promise
gonna bring it back.

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But I think what we need to do
is, is let Brandy outline this

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cultural difference in perception.

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Brandy Tomhave: Because

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Rupert Isaacson: I do feel, as we'll
see in the course of this conversation

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that there is stuff there for us to
learn, we practitioners how to better

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our service through understanding
perhaps the Native American and

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other different ways of looking at
the human relationship with animals.

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So, okay.

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Just having made that point over to
you, so you are sitting in this place in

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Flagstaff, Arizona, you're seeing Oh yeah.

00:14:22.333 --> 00:14:27.253
These people are coming from a
good place emotionally, morally.

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They wanna do the right thing, but
they are, they don't realize that the

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people on the Navajo reservation have
a different type of relationship with

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their dogs, and now there's an impasse.

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So people are going in there and
taking dogs that are actually family

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dogs thinking they're neglected dogs.

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Now what?

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Yes.

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Brandy Tomhave: Right.

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E Exactly.

00:14:48.493 --> 00:14:53.543
And I think that, you know, I have
outed our friends and Flagstaff and that

00:14:53.543 --> 00:15:00.883
perhaps might be unfair because it's not
that is not unique to them in any way.

00:15:01.453 --> 00:15:10.053
And working on the Navajo Nation, what
I soon learned from the friends with

00:15:10.053 --> 00:15:14.733
whom I worked there was that there are
a lot of well-intended folks parachuting

00:15:14.793 --> 00:15:18.873
into their communities trying to help

00:15:19.263 --> 00:15:19.503
Yeah.

00:15:19.773 --> 00:15:20.103
Basic.

00:15:20.163 --> 00:15:24.333
And, and the, the form of that help is
telling them how to treat their dogs.

00:15:24.393 --> 00:15:32.573
And that does so much damage and
that feels so much like, a a eight.

00:15:34.978 --> 00:15:36.523
I am, I'm struggling to find the words.

00:15:36.553 --> 00:15:36.643
Mm-hmm.

00:15:36.643 --> 00:15:40.603
There was a time when it was
perfectly acceptable to steal

00:15:40.603 --> 00:15:42.733
kids from native families.

00:15:42.733 --> 00:15:42.793
Yeah,

00:15:42.883 --> 00:15:43.333
Rupert Isaacson: absolutely.

00:15:43.513 --> 00:15:46.663
Brandy Tomhave: And the government
encouraged missionaries to do that

00:15:46.753 --> 00:15:47.293
Rupert Isaacson: a hundred percent.

00:15:47.293 --> 00:15:49.693
And sent them to boarding schools
where they were all sexually abused and

00:15:49.783 --> 00:15:51.763
every kind of horrible thing happened,

00:15:52.123 --> 00:15:52.693
Brandy Tomhave: right.

00:15:52.813 --> 00:15:53.413
Rupert Isaacson: North America.

00:15:53.413 --> 00:15:53.833
Yes.

00:15:53.863 --> 00:15:54.283
Yes.

00:15:54.358 --> 00:15:57.823
Brandy Tomhave: And, and what was
driving that was a shared assumption

00:15:57.823 --> 00:16:02.583
that those kids would be better
off being raised anywhere than

00:16:03.243 --> 00:16:04.923
there in their own communities.

00:16:04.983 --> 00:16:05.043
Yeah.

00:16:05.133 --> 00:16:06.633
By their own families.

00:16:06.873 --> 00:16:13.473
And bottom line, that is a belief
that is still held pretty firmly by

00:16:13.473 --> 00:16:16.743
folks who see animals on reservations.

00:16:16.743 --> 00:16:22.083
So it's not cool to steal the kids
anymore, but you can rescue the dogs.

00:16:22.083 --> 00:16:22.143
Yeah.

00:16:22.503 --> 00:16:27.983
It's the same phenomenon and
it lands emotionally the same

00:16:28.013 --> 00:16:32.033
for the native families who
find their loved one absent and

00:16:32.153 --> 00:16:32.243
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

00:16:32.243 --> 00:16:32.333
It's

00:16:33.113 --> 00:16:33.683
Brandy Tomhave: so,

00:16:34.418 --> 00:16:36.263
Rupert Isaacson: I, I, I
totally understand this.

00:16:37.133 --> 00:16:38.693
Why did you decide,

00:16:40.763 --> 00:16:48.863
given that the human abuses that go on,
on in Indian country are so still so

00:16:48.863 --> 00:16:53.753
pressing, why did you decide to then
switch your attention to these animals?

00:16:54.413 --> 00:16:59.483
Brandy Tomhave: Yeah, because it's
such an extraordinary opportunity.

00:16:59.893 --> 00:17:07.053
I have worked in a tribal advocacy
for almost 30 years and this is the

00:17:07.053 --> 00:17:14.313
one area that no one else has really
shown up to deal with quite yet.

00:17:14.583 --> 00:17:14.883
Hmm.

00:17:15.183 --> 00:17:21.813
The federal government has responsibility
vis-a-vis treaties and statutes

00:17:21.813 --> 00:17:26.343
and case law to provide for, for
forming main things for tribes,

00:17:26.913 --> 00:17:34.213
housing, education law enforcement
and and environmental management.

00:17:34.693 --> 00:17:34.723
Okay.

00:17:34.803 --> 00:17:41.053
And not not veterinary
care, not animal wellness.

00:17:41.593 --> 00:17:48.733
And so there is no federal
program or model that has had an

00:17:48.733 --> 00:17:55.133
opportunity to help or hurt tribes
when it comes to animals just yet.

00:17:55.403 --> 00:17:56.543
What that means.

00:17:57.053 --> 00:18:02.223
Is that while the housing that you
see on Indian reservations it's result

00:18:02.223 --> 00:18:06.903
of decisions made in Washington DC
largely by non-native people about

00:18:06.903 --> 00:18:08.103
what housing should look like.

00:18:08.313 --> 00:18:11.253
Same thing with education,
same thing with public safety.

00:18:11.373 --> 00:18:13.173
Same thing with land management.

00:18:13.623 --> 00:18:18.513
Here when it comes to animals, it
is an extraordinary opportunity

00:18:18.723 --> 00:18:24.963
for tribes to do authentic nation
building to decide for themselves what

00:18:24.963 --> 00:18:28.833
animal wellness systems should look
like within their own communities.

00:18:28.833 --> 00:18:32.563
They didn't have that opportunity
in the other spheres of daily life

00:18:32.563 --> 00:18:35.353
that I just listed, but here they do.

00:18:35.743 --> 00:18:40.903
And I find that incredibly exciting
as an advocate for native people

00:18:40.903 --> 00:18:46.993
and everything I learned working
in the sector of public safety or

00:18:47.023 --> 00:18:49.763
public health for tribal communities.

00:18:49.763 --> 00:18:55.823
All of those lessons are absolutely
relevant here because what we're really

00:18:55.823 --> 00:19:02.253
talking about is creating systems
where none have ever existed before

00:19:02.613 --> 00:19:05.523
and they are going to be created.

00:19:06.078 --> 00:19:12.558
On the ground by tribes themselves
and the, and it's gonna be peer to

00:19:12.558 --> 00:19:18.348
peer knowledge sharing and coalition
building, rather than having the feds

00:19:18.618 --> 00:19:22.248
issue dictates about what that should
look like in a tribal community.

00:19:22.278 --> 00:19:28.818
I've never had an opportunity to be a
part of that, and I am 61 years old,

00:19:28.878 --> 00:19:37.718
and that is a heck of a way to, you
know, I guess, move towards what I,

00:19:37.928 --> 00:19:41.408
what I'm assuming is gonna be like the
last quarter of my professional life.

00:19:41.408 --> 00:19:42.008
I, that's, well, I

00:19:42.008 --> 00:19:43.088
Rupert Isaacson: think, yeah.

00:19:43.088 --> 00:19:45.428
What, what, what I think you're,
you're hitting on, which is really

00:19:45.428 --> 00:19:49.208
interesting to me, is that animals
are always the ambassadorial

00:19:49.208 --> 00:19:52.388
bridge between human cultures.

00:19:52.838 --> 00:19:52.928
Brandy Tomhave: Mm-hmm.

00:19:53.498 --> 00:19:56.978
Rupert Isaacson: So, for example,
the equine assisted world that we do,

00:19:57.548 --> 00:20:03.458
the equines are a bridge between the
neurotypical and the non neurotypical.

00:20:04.748 --> 00:20:11.408
The therapy dog is a bridge
between this human population

00:20:11.408 --> 00:20:12.848
and that human population.

00:20:14.348 --> 00:20:20.498
I routinely go to foreign countries
and I can show up in a place where I

00:20:20.498 --> 00:20:26.678
don't speak the language and I know
very little about the culture and.

00:20:27.458 --> 00:20:29.768
I can meet other horse
people from that culture.

00:20:30.218 --> 00:20:33.218
And the horse is the
ambassador between us now.

00:20:33.218 --> 00:20:35.768
It's not just that animals are
not the only thing that does that.

00:20:35.768 --> 00:20:39.848
There are things within human culture
like music or healing or land management

00:20:39.848 --> 00:20:45.518
or there are many cultural things that
can bridge and do bridge human societies,

00:20:45.698 --> 00:20:49.148
particularly human societies that perhaps
don't understand each other very well.

00:20:49.848 --> 00:20:53.988
But I think what you're putting your
finger on, which I think is fascinating

00:20:53.988 --> 00:21:02.418
to me, is that particularly the dogs and
the horses in Native America can serve

00:21:02.418 --> 00:21:09.108
as a bridge, an ambassadorial bridge
of understanding of the entire culture

00:21:09.138 --> 00:21:12.978
between white and native American society.

00:21:13.008 --> 00:21:17.988
And in Europe, you know, outside of
native, outside of white America,

00:21:17.988 --> 00:21:25.998
if you like, you there is often a
sort of fascination with a perceived

00:21:25.998 --> 00:21:31.338
idea of what Native American
horse culture might look like.

00:21:31.908 --> 00:21:31.968
Yeah.

00:21:32.188 --> 00:21:36.508
Because of the adoption and
really successful adoption of the

00:21:36.508 --> 00:21:41.008
horse by Native American tribes,
you know, once the Spanish had

00:21:41.008 --> 00:21:44.068
shown up and that they could use.

00:21:44.803 --> 00:21:48.163
Those horses very successfully
against the whites.

00:21:49.003 --> 00:21:52.393
And particularly like on the Comanche
nation, you know, they kept the

00:21:52.393 --> 00:21:54.553
whites out of Texas for 300 years.

00:21:54.583 --> 00:21:57.223
I mean, without, without the horse.

00:21:57.223 --> 00:21:57.913
They couldn't have done it.

00:21:58.543 --> 00:22:03.343
When the horse brought to them by
the whitey used as a tool against

00:22:03.343 --> 00:22:05.323
the whites with great success.

00:22:06.073 --> 00:22:09.643
And at the same time served as a
respect bridge that any of the people

00:22:09.643 --> 00:22:14.593
coming from white America into Comanche
could go, wow, these guys really know

00:22:14.593 --> 00:22:17.443
what they're doing, but there's stuff
we can actually learn from here.

00:22:17.623 --> 00:22:20.863
This is sort of our tradition that they've
taken and now they've made it, you know,

00:22:20.863 --> 00:22:22.128
something that we can learn back from.

00:22:22.198 --> 00:22:22.488
Whoa.

00:22:22.828 --> 00:22:24.673
So you've got people coming
from that perspective too.

00:22:24.673 --> 00:22:29.433
And I think that Native American
relationship with canines is also

00:22:30.153 --> 00:22:34.023
something that's been a fasten source
of fascination, because when Europeans

00:22:34.023 --> 00:22:38.073
first showed up particularly in the,
on, on the plains, they noticed that

00:22:38.073 --> 00:22:42.813
people were using dogs as draft animals,
as well as as hunting partners and

00:22:43.023 --> 00:22:44.913
companion animals and the rest of it.

00:22:45.423 --> 00:22:49.773
And so they clearly knew a whole
lot more about dogs than a lot of

00:22:49.773 --> 00:22:51.033
the Europeans that were coming in.

00:22:51.033 --> 00:22:52.443
And this was a source of fascination.

00:22:52.443 --> 00:22:53.373
People wrote about it.

00:22:54.453 --> 00:23:00.753
Now we've reached a point where I would
say probably it's gone the other way.

00:23:00.753 --> 00:23:04.533
The perception now is that no, we in the.

00:23:05.853 --> 00:23:09.663
If you like the white world, know more
about these things than people living in

00:23:09.663 --> 00:23:16.953
rural slums because the, you know, when
you go into a, an Indian reservation

00:23:17.463 --> 00:23:19.083
in the US I've been to many of them.

00:23:20.373 --> 00:23:21.783
They often look like that.

00:23:22.413 --> 00:23:28.473
And so it's hard then if you knew
nothing about that other background to

00:23:28.473 --> 00:23:33.093
look at that and go and not go, okay,
these animals look kind of neglected.

00:23:33.933 --> 00:23:38.913
And at the same time to not
understand what the relationship

00:23:38.913 --> 00:23:40.113
with the animals might be.

00:23:40.263 --> 00:23:44.253
So the horses are walking around,
apparently untended, but of

00:23:44.253 --> 00:23:47.853
course they all belong to people
and they actually are used.

00:23:48.243 --> 00:23:49.773
They just don't happen to be fenced.

00:23:50.553 --> 00:23:52.473
And the same with the dogs.

00:23:55.113 --> 00:24:01.923
You are in this really interesting
position where I think you can speak as an

00:24:01.923 --> 00:24:08.613
ambassador for those animal ambassadors,
which brings a greater understanding

00:24:08.613 --> 00:24:16.623
between these two historically
antagonistic human cultures to do, kind

00:24:16.623 --> 00:24:20.463
of allow the animals to do what the
animals always do, which is cool us out

00:24:20.973 --> 00:24:28.053
and make us actually realize that we deal
with the same species and ought to be on

00:24:28.053 --> 00:24:30.573
the same side occupying the same planet.

00:24:31.878 --> 00:24:38.118
We shouldn't be trying to colonize,
but yet I can definitely see how your

00:24:39.408 --> 00:24:44.058
experience in that Flagstaff animal
shelter would've made you go, ah,

00:24:44.358 --> 00:24:47.238
sadly, this is still colonization.

00:24:48.378 --> 00:24:52.518
It's just coming from a good place
rather than a bad place that's

00:24:52.518 --> 00:24:57.948
even more ambiguous and therefore
almost even harder to address.

00:24:58.278 --> 00:24:58.638
No,

00:24:59.958 --> 00:25:02.448
Brandy Tomhave: it is very hard to

00:25:04.548 --> 00:25:09.858
convince, very passionate,
well-intended people that they

00:25:09.858 --> 00:25:15.378
could be doing harm because it's
the last thing they want to do.

00:25:15.828 --> 00:25:21.408
And I think that really cha challenges
their core belief about themselves.

00:25:22.188 --> 00:25:24.858
I get that that's hard for all of us.

00:25:25.278 --> 00:25:33.288
I love how you've characterized animals as
being these kind of bridging ambassadors.

00:25:33.628 --> 00:25:39.688
I just wanted to share with you that
you know, in my tribe, the, the Choctaw

00:25:39.693 --> 00:25:44.068
people and, and other tribal people,
you know, have thought of dogs as being

00:25:44.068 --> 00:25:46.198
ambassadors from the spirit world.

00:25:46.438 --> 00:25:46.588
Yeah.

00:25:46.588 --> 00:25:48.538
And I'm sure that's true
all around the world.

00:25:48.538 --> 00:25:48.958
Right?

00:25:48.958 --> 00:25:50.428
Same thing with horses.

00:25:50.938 --> 00:25:51.208
Absolutely.

00:25:51.208 --> 00:26:01.438
And and I think that this nascent effort
to help tribes develop their own animal

00:26:01.438 --> 00:26:10.648
wellness systems is an opportunity for
them to reclaim their own historic,

00:26:10.948 --> 00:26:16.438
traditional relationships with animals
who've unfortunately, you know, are

00:26:16.438 --> 00:26:18.388
too often now seen as just a nuisance.

00:26:18.728 --> 00:26:23.078
Because reservations are not
designed for companion animals.

00:26:23.468 --> 00:26:31.408
And I just have to say that on behalf
of tribal folks, it's galling to have

00:26:31.708 --> 00:26:35.428
non-natives who, like, as you white people

00:26:35.748 --> 00:26:36.948
Rupert Isaacson: call it
like, it is, it's fine.

00:26:36.973 --> 00:26:37.263
It's,

00:26:37.278 --> 00:26:39.888
Brandy Tomhave: it's usually white
women, you know, who look just like me.

00:26:39.888 --> 00:26:44.098
It's older white women, you know,
caravans of them who come in and

00:26:44.098 --> 00:26:48.328
start judging people about how they
live and the condition of their dogs

00:26:48.328 --> 00:26:52.438
because those white women are living
on the land that belonged to those

00:26:52.438 --> 00:26:55.138
native families not that long ago.

00:26:55.138 --> 00:26:55.198
Yeah.

00:26:55.348 --> 00:26:55.858
Like.

00:26:56.458 --> 00:26:58.618
Within a hundred years.

00:26:58.678 --> 00:27:01.318
So you can find people to these spaces.

00:27:01.318 --> 00:27:03.808
The reason why they didn't have
problems with dogs before is because

00:27:03.808 --> 00:27:05.338
there's plenty of room for everyone.

00:27:05.338 --> 00:27:05.398
Yeah.

00:27:05.668 --> 00:27:11.738
There's no longer is, and the housing
that the federal government provides is

00:27:11.738 --> 00:27:16.568
so sub, so small, so substandard that
you have multiple generations of people.

00:27:16.568 --> 00:27:17.618
You can have 12.

00:27:17.948 --> 00:27:22.958
It's not at all uncommon to have a
dozen to 20 people living in a two

00:27:22.958 --> 00:27:25.808
bedroom house that is not fenced.

00:27:25.808 --> 00:27:28.928
Where, where are the
animals supposed to be?

00:27:28.928 --> 00:27:34.928
And those families and those communities
have larger problems that are urgent

00:27:34.958 --> 00:27:40.638
right now regarding their own hunger and
their own health and their own warmth.

00:27:40.998 --> 00:27:47.668
And they just can't quite get to the dogs
like people like me who have the comfort

00:27:47.668 --> 00:27:51.768
and privilege of you know, all of those
kinds of basic needs are taken care of.

00:27:51.858 --> 00:27:52.998
So, you know.

00:27:53.028 --> 00:27:53.328
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

00:27:53.328 --> 00:27:55.458
It, it's also, there's a
really interesting thing.

00:27:55.458 --> 00:27:56.208
I dunno if you remember.

00:27:56.208 --> 00:27:59.458
We were in Montana together
in Missoula for that festival.

00:27:59.488 --> 00:28:04.578
And there was a, another presentation
going on, if you remember, from

00:28:04.668 --> 00:28:09.318
the local dog shelter talking about
homeless people and their dogs Yeah.

00:28:09.318 --> 00:28:11.448
And trying to provide
veterinary care for that and

00:28:11.448 --> 00:28:12.318
Brandy Tomhave: mm-hmm.

00:28:12.478 --> 00:28:15.238
Rupert Isaacson: In the current political
climate, this is getting more and more

00:28:15.238 --> 00:28:16.773
difficult and so on and so on and so on.

00:28:17.273 --> 00:28:22.583
And, I remember thinking, yeah, the
happiest dogs, often the happiest

00:28:22.583 --> 00:28:27.353
dogs I've seen are the dogs owned
by homeless people because they have

00:28:27.353 --> 00:28:29.033
constant companionship from their owners.

00:28:29.243 --> 00:28:33.023
The owners do not go out to
work and leave them frequently.

00:28:33.023 --> 00:28:34.763
They are there all the time.

00:28:34.913 --> 00:28:37.493
They have a totally defined job.

00:28:37.853 --> 00:28:40.713
They're protecting their companion.

00:28:41.103 --> 00:28:43.723
They're acting as sort of a bridge.

00:28:43.723 --> 00:28:46.723
They, they earn money because if
you sit and your panhandling and

00:28:46.723 --> 00:28:48.703
your dog is with you, people are
more likely to give you money.

00:28:49.353 --> 00:28:50.613
And the dog's pretty grand.

00:28:50.643 --> 00:28:54.423
Dog doesn't care whether it's sleeping,
you know, on the street or on your sofa.

00:28:55.143 --> 00:28:59.283
And so this perception that say
the animals owned by those people

00:28:59.643 --> 00:29:05.253
are suffering is that, well, they
might be, but they often are not.

00:29:05.343 --> 00:29:09.963
And the animals owned by people living
in houses are frequently suffering.

00:29:10.503 --> 00:29:14.643
So one can't really
judge by those standards.

00:29:14.643 --> 00:29:16.993
And then the same thing
with say with horses.

00:29:17.093 --> 00:29:21.383
Now obviously if I go on a, anywhere,
a reservation or not a reservation,

00:29:21.533 --> 00:29:26.393
and I see horses that are obviously
say under fed or clearly worm ridden

00:29:26.393 --> 00:29:30.143
or something like that, then yeah, I'm
gonna notice that and I'm going to but.

00:29:30.533 --> 00:29:35.273
The reservation that I've spent the
most time on is the Navajo reservation.

00:29:35.273 --> 00:29:38.153
And I'm going to talk a little
bit about my relationship with the

00:29:38.153 --> 00:29:39.383
Navajo reservation in a minute.

00:29:39.383 --> 00:29:43.493
'cause this is specific to this
conversation because there would

00:29:43.493 --> 00:29:48.923
be no horse boy without the Navajo
nation and I'm, so, I owe a debt

00:29:48.923 --> 00:29:52.563
of gratitude to the Navajo nation
which I'll go into in a moment.

00:29:52.983 --> 00:29:56.673
When I was on the many times that
I've been on there, I've tended to

00:29:56.673 --> 00:30:00.423
notice that the horse is in pretty
good Nick, when you go around, yeah,

00:30:00.423 --> 00:30:01.443
there's the odd horse that isn't.

00:30:01.443 --> 00:30:05.463
But for the most part, what you see,
and I've seen plenty of horses in

00:30:05.673 --> 00:30:10.203
white America, not in good nick too,
by the way, but for the most part,

00:30:10.653 --> 00:30:13.893
driving around that vast area, which
is the size of Ireland, I believe.

00:30:14.613 --> 00:30:19.653
The horses look pretty good and
people are riding them pretty well and

00:30:19.953 --> 00:30:22.533
are, have a relationship with them.

00:30:22.533 --> 00:30:29.703
That is to do with livelihood, not sport.

00:30:29.853 --> 00:30:30.873
It's to do with culture.

00:30:31.503 --> 00:30:35.793
And that makes generally for happy,
fulfilled animals as well as people.

00:30:36.423 --> 00:30:37.053
So

00:30:39.783 --> 00:30:45.603
it's clear that there is stuff
to be learned from both sides.

00:30:46.683 --> 00:30:49.563
Your organization is, is doing
a really great thing and they're

00:30:49.563 --> 00:30:54.843
gonna provide, you know, more
veterinary systems and fantastic.

00:30:54.843 --> 00:30:55.473
Fantastic.

00:30:55.863 --> 00:30:58.563
And at the same time, there
is a relationship that one

00:30:58.563 --> 00:31:01.203
doesn't really want to disturb.

00:31:03.483 --> 00:31:09.483
Can you talk to me a little bit about
what we don't want to disturb IE

00:31:09.783 --> 00:31:18.153
what is the therapeutic value within
Native America of canines and equines?

00:31:18.843 --> 00:31:23.853
I don't mean what fanciful notions can we
white people have about Native American

00:31:23.853 --> 00:31:24.918
horsemanship or something like that.

00:31:24.918 --> 00:31:29.583
Now, I don't mean that, what I mean
is specifically family to family.

00:31:30.213 --> 00:31:34.293
What role, given that we're dealing
often with quite traumatized

00:31:34.293 --> 00:31:40.858
communities, what role do the
dogs and the horses generally have

00:31:43.083 --> 00:31:49.863
or play in the human wellbeing
of people living there?

00:31:51.273 --> 00:31:53.553
Brandy Tomhave: Well, thank
you for that question.

00:31:53.793 --> 00:32:02.343
And I am daunted by the challenge of
answering it and doing it justice,

00:32:02.703 --> 00:32:03.543
Rupert Isaacson: make it subjective.

00:32:03.543 --> 00:32:05.583
It's, this is just gonna
try my best interpretation.

00:32:05.583 --> 00:32:06.003
Yeah.

00:32:07.009 --> 00:32:09.849
If you're in the equine assisted
field, or if you're considering

00:32:09.849 --> 00:32:13.769
a career in the equine assisted
field, you might want to consider

00:32:13.839 --> 00:32:18.109
taking one of our three neuroscience
backed equine assisted programs.

00:32:18.169 --> 00:32:23.749
Horseboy method, now established
for 20 years, is the original

00:32:24.344 --> 00:32:30.654
Equine assisted program specifically
designed for autism, mentored by and

00:32:30.654 --> 00:32:33.324
developed in conjunction with Dr.

00:32:33.324 --> 00:32:36.204
Temple Grandin and many
other neuroscientists.

00:32:36.544 --> 00:32:39.814
We work in the saddle
with younger children.

00:32:40.309 --> 00:32:45.259
Helping them create oxytocin in their
bodies and neuroplasticity in the brain.

00:32:45.919 --> 00:32:47.359
It works incredibly well.

00:32:47.359 --> 00:32:49.079
It's now in about 40 countries.

00:32:49.789 --> 00:32:50.539
Check it out.

00:32:51.219 --> 00:32:55.369
If you're working without horses,
you might want to look at movement

00:32:55.379 --> 00:32:58.749
method, which gets a very, very
similar effect, but can also be

00:32:58.749 --> 00:33:00.499
applied in schools, in homes.

00:33:00.699 --> 00:33:05.689
If you're working with families, you can
give them really tangible exercises to do

00:33:05.689 --> 00:33:07.229
at home that will create neuroplasticity.

00:33:08.584 --> 00:33:09.864
when they're not with you.

00:33:10.374 --> 00:33:13.814
Finally, we have taquine
equine integration.

00:33:14.174 --> 00:33:16.794
If you know anything about our
programs, you know that we need a

00:33:16.794 --> 00:33:20.794
really high standard of horsemanship
in order to create the oxytocin

00:33:20.824 --> 00:33:25.114
in the body of the person that
we're working with, child or adult.

00:33:25.554 --> 00:33:28.894
So, this means we need to train
a horse in collection, but this

00:33:28.914 --> 00:33:33.154
also has a really beneficial
effect on the horse's well being.

00:33:33.354 --> 00:33:37.644
And it also ends your time conflict,
where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how

00:33:37.644 --> 00:33:40.944
am I going to condition my horses and
maintain them and give them what they

00:33:40.944 --> 00:33:44.039
need, as well as Serving my clients.

00:33:44.279 --> 00:33:48.779
Takine equine integration aimed
at a more adult client base

00:33:49.109 --> 00:33:50.759
absolutely gives you this.

00:33:50.819 --> 00:33:51.629
Brandy Tomhave: So.

00:33:53.474 --> 00:33:58.184
Well, first let me start
with the traditional role and

00:33:58.274 --> 00:34:00.344
then I have to come clean.

00:34:00.344 --> 00:34:04.754
The Native American Humane Society
focuses on, focuses upon companion

00:34:04.754 --> 00:34:10.454
animals, so I'm more able to speak
to dogs, but absolutely, you know,

00:34:10.454 --> 00:34:13.724
we, we, horses are a huge part.

00:34:13.724 --> 00:34:16.544
Horse culture is a huge
part of native culture.

00:34:17.384 --> 00:34:17.444
Hmm.

00:34:17.444 --> 00:34:20.224
And and I have seen all the
same things that you have.

00:34:20.674 --> 00:34:29.774
And let me start by saying that
native American people try, there's

00:34:29.774 --> 00:34:32.774
576 federally recognized tribes.

00:34:33.104 --> 00:34:33.944
All of them are different.

00:34:33.944 --> 00:34:34.844
They're not a monolith.

00:34:34.844 --> 00:34:37.964
Each has its own culture,
history, practices, language,

00:34:38.174 --> 00:34:39.734
historically and today languages.

00:34:40.094 --> 00:34:49.634
But what they share is a extraordinary
bond with animals because native.

00:34:50.159 --> 00:34:55.329
Culture across the board is
one based upon relationality

00:34:55.419 --> 00:34:57.879
and that we are all relations.

00:34:58.179 --> 00:35:01.479
So, you know, we are
relations with horses.

00:35:01.479 --> 00:35:04.119
We are the relations of with dogs.

00:35:04.329 --> 00:35:04.479
Mm-hmm.

00:35:04.509 --> 00:35:08.529
And I think that's very different
than non-native cultures, at

00:35:08.529 --> 00:35:09.729
least here in the United States.

00:35:09.729 --> 00:35:11.949
And I'll just link my
conversation to that.

00:35:12.429 --> 00:35:17.319
And so we have had relationships
with animals since time immemorial.

00:35:17.829 --> 00:35:22.869
And and we don't distinguish between
the spiritual and the scientific.

00:35:22.959 --> 00:35:24.009
It's the same.

00:35:24.429 --> 00:35:24.549
Okay.

00:35:25.059 --> 00:35:28.569
And we all carry our own medicine, so.

00:35:29.034 --> 00:35:36.324
Horses and dogs are part of tribal
ceremonies and songs and practices.

00:35:36.324 --> 00:35:41.384
They are embedded in religions
and native religions.

00:35:41.494 --> 00:35:48.514
So it's not all uncommon for the a tribe
to traditionally view a dog as being the

00:35:48.964 --> 00:35:51.124
messenger from this world to the next.

00:35:51.184 --> 00:35:55.764
On the Navajo Nation there's a little
dog that looks like a chihuahua that is

00:35:55.764 --> 00:36:01.784
believed to have protected their winter
God the, the deity known as a y Bache.

00:36:02.174 --> 00:36:05.834
And so that dog still factors
into y Bache ceremonies.

00:36:05.834 --> 00:36:07.454
I have never been a part of it.

00:36:07.454 --> 00:36:13.034
It's, I can't speak about a Navajo
ceremony beyond that, which you know,

00:36:13.034 --> 00:36:18.524
I have, that little bit has been shared
with me by very close Navajo friends.

00:36:18.944 --> 00:36:29.444
So I think that horses and dogs have
always played a profound role in

00:36:29.444 --> 00:36:33.839
tribal cultures in terms of informing
us as human beings, who we are and

00:36:33.839 --> 00:36:38.624
our place in the universe and our
relationship with all beings today.

00:36:38.684 --> 00:36:46.044
And then as a practical matter moving
forward, I think they were certainly.

00:36:46.734 --> 00:36:48.474
Allowed to just be companions.

00:36:48.924 --> 00:36:54.804
Archeologists have dug up bones of
native people in California recently.

00:36:55.144 --> 00:36:59.464
Where the animals are buried with humans.

00:36:59.524 --> 00:37:03.904
We are assuming that, that there
is a relationality there, right?

00:37:04.354 --> 00:37:08.554
Native leaders were photographed
for formal portraiture in

00:37:08.554 --> 00:37:12.184
Washington DC cradling puppies.

00:37:12.424 --> 00:37:18.814
So there's a re relationality, and yes,
and also they were used to pull tvo.

00:37:18.844 --> 00:37:22.394
These are the dogs the horses in war.

00:37:22.734 --> 00:37:27.674
Navajo people are shepherds
and you know, obviously for you

00:37:27.674 --> 00:37:30.104
know, sheep dogs and hunting.

00:37:30.374 --> 00:37:37.254
And so for practical purposes today,
there is an extraordinary, ranching

00:37:37.254 --> 00:37:41.474
tradition with my husband's comes from a
family of ranchers from the Fort Brisel

00:37:41.474 --> 00:37:47.264
Reservation in North Dakota, and that's
the home of the Mandan Hiza and RA Nation.

00:37:47.354 --> 00:37:49.004
And a lot has changed.

00:37:49.034 --> 00:37:55.364
The US Army Corps of in of
engineers flooded the town that

00:37:55.364 --> 00:37:57.554
my father-in-law grew up in.

00:37:57.864 --> 00:38:03.834
So the place is unrecognizable from
what it was just two generations ago.

00:38:03.894 --> 00:38:08.934
And yet the ranching practices
have continued as though

00:38:09.174 --> 00:38:10.554
nothing has changed, right?

00:38:10.794 --> 00:38:15.744
So, horse culture is really important
and manifests in all kinds of

00:38:15.744 --> 00:38:19.454
ways, including rodeo and rodeo.

00:38:19.454 --> 00:38:23.294
I think the only thing that's as big as
rodeo in Indian country is basketball.

00:38:23.624 --> 00:38:29.664
And also you asked me part of why I
got into this, you know, I was working

00:38:29.694 --> 00:38:35.034
basically within a kind of public
safety sphere of the Navajo nation

00:38:35.034 --> 00:38:41.264
trying to help missing and murdered
persons and their families find justice.

00:38:41.624 --> 00:38:44.804
And in the course of that.

00:38:46.349 --> 00:38:52.379
I unfortunately came face to face with
instances of animal cruelty and abuse

00:38:52.379 --> 00:38:57.759
because there is no greater indicator
of future human violence than past

00:38:57.759 --> 00:39:01.389
human violence against an animal.

00:39:02.229 --> 00:39:06.449
And that's a greater indicator of
future violence than violent human on

00:39:06.449 --> 00:39:07.769
human violence, which I think is really

00:39:07.769 --> 00:39:08.249
Rupert Isaacson: interesting.

00:39:08.249 --> 00:39:08.519
Interesting.

00:39:08.609 --> 00:39:09.269
That is interesting.

00:39:09.419 --> 00:39:09.839
Brandy Tomhave: Yeah.

00:39:09.839 --> 00:39:14.409
And, and so I actually was
sent photographs of animal

00:39:14.409 --> 00:39:16.029
abuse on the Navajo Nation.

00:39:16.029 --> 00:39:22.439
And and to me, this is the
final manifestation of the

00:39:22.439 --> 00:39:24.149
trauma from genocide mm-hmm.

00:39:24.419 --> 00:39:26.189
Is when you lose your own humanity.

00:39:26.519 --> 00:39:26.759
Yeah.

00:39:27.239 --> 00:39:32.999
And that's really what the Native
American Humane Society is about, is

00:39:33.029 --> 00:39:36.529
helping tribes themselves restore,

00:39:37.099 --> 00:39:37.729
reclaim,

00:39:37.729 --> 00:39:41.089
and restore the human animal bond
that has always existed since

00:39:41.089 --> 00:39:43.639
time, Memorial time immemorial.

00:39:44.029 --> 00:39:48.739
But that, you know, the consequence
of genocide has, you know, really

00:39:48.919 --> 00:39:55.729
compromised because colonization
is still a daily reality.

00:39:56.164 --> 00:39:58.234
For a lot of native people.

00:39:58.234 --> 00:40:01.654
It's not something that they're
reading about in a history book.

00:40:01.714 --> 00:40:05.464
They're still, you know, they got
up today and are still living the

00:40:05.464 --> 00:40:09.724
consequence of that based upon the
policies and practices Absolutely.

00:40:09.729 --> 00:40:10.984
Of the US federal government.

00:40:10.984 --> 00:40:14.554
And that directly affects everything.

00:40:15.034 --> 00:40:21.374
And when people are profoundly
traumatized they bring that trauma to

00:40:21.374 --> 00:40:26.864
every relationship, including, especially
I think with the most vulnerable

00:40:27.074 --> 00:40:27.644
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

00:40:27.644 --> 00:40:28.274
The helpless.

00:40:28.274 --> 00:40:28.544
Yeah.

00:40:29.144 --> 00:40:29.214
Brandy Tomhave: The helpless.

00:40:29.294 --> 00:40:30.974
Those would be animals.

00:40:31.154 --> 00:40:32.504
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, no, I get it.

00:40:32.504 --> 00:40:38.604
And what's interesting to me is that it's
very natural and understandable if you

00:40:39.174 --> 00:40:49.434
are a people that have been colonized
to look at the process of colonization

00:40:49.794 --> 00:40:54.354
as that people to your people.

00:40:55.374 --> 00:40:59.784
You know, I, I, my family's incredibly
mixed, but on my father's side, it's

00:41:00.054 --> 00:41:06.004
Litvac Lithuanian Jews who got out because
of the pogroms, the killing of masculine

00:41:06.004 --> 00:41:08.434
of Jews in the 19th century there.

00:41:08.434 --> 00:41:12.004
And sort of that's what sp, you
know, sent them to the Americas

00:41:12.004 --> 00:41:17.254
and to South Africa, where my
family's from in the last 200 years.

00:41:17.944 --> 00:41:27.004
This process of genocide weirdly, often
fueled on horseback has been going

00:41:27.004 --> 00:41:32.614
on since about the early Bronze Age.

00:41:32.704 --> 00:41:34.714
So that's about 4,000 years.

00:41:35.854 --> 00:41:37.144
And of course, where does it start?

00:41:37.144 --> 00:41:43.834
Eurasia, it starts in Eurasia and
the step peoples who would've been

00:41:43.834 --> 00:41:46.474
not unlike Native American peoples.

00:41:46.504 --> 00:41:46.594
Mm-hmm.

00:41:47.104 --> 00:41:49.444
And it's interesting, if you
go to Mongolia, you know,

00:41:49.474 --> 00:41:50.104
it's really interesting.

00:41:50.104 --> 00:41:52.384
You look around and go, oh, this must
be what America kind of looked like

00:41:52.384 --> 00:41:53.794
before the white people showed up.

00:41:54.094 --> 00:41:54.874
You know, because it's of course

00:41:54.874 --> 00:41:55.084
Brandy Tomhave: just,

00:41:55.384 --> 00:41:55.564
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

00:41:55.564 --> 00:41:55.894
I have

00:41:55.894 --> 00:41:58.264
Brandy Tomhave: to tell you
that I have a very dear friend,

00:41:58.474 --> 00:41:58.504
Uhhuh,

00:41:58.714 --> 00:42:02.634
Who is Navajo and lives and
works out on Navajo, and she

00:42:02.634 --> 00:42:04.194
went to Mongolia by herself.

00:42:04.194 --> 00:42:05.454
She's very interest.

00:42:05.454 --> 00:42:05.544
Okay.

00:42:05.934 --> 00:42:10.194
And she got there and she said, I traveled
all the way across the world only to

00:42:10.194 --> 00:42:11.844
find people who looked exactly like me.

00:42:11.844 --> 00:42:13.344
Exactly my relations.

00:42:13.344 --> 00:42:14.814
I got the biggest kick out of that

00:42:14.814 --> 00:42:15.084
Rupert Isaacson: Eve.

00:42:15.084 --> 00:42:18.684
And to the, to the degree that
Athabascan, you know, native American

00:42:18.774 --> 00:42:26.694
languages seem to either originate
in Northern Asia or vice versa.

00:42:26.694 --> 00:42:29.154
We don't, we'll never know
which one, but we know that

00:42:29.154 --> 00:42:30.534
it's a similar language route.

00:42:31.084 --> 00:42:33.394
And you know, you, you're with the, the.

00:42:34.144 --> 00:42:39.634
Horse tribes of the step, and they're
living in ge yurts, which are not

00:42:39.634 --> 00:42:41.939
dissimilar from Hogans and so on.

00:42:42.064 --> 00:42:47.464
And then you go north into Siberia and
they're living in teepees and yeah.

00:42:47.524 --> 00:42:48.904
Speaking language, it sounds quite same.

00:42:48.904 --> 00:42:51.404
And, and a very similar spiritual system.

00:42:52.254 --> 00:42:57.594
Healing system express with the round
drum, the way of dancing, the way

00:42:57.594 --> 00:42:58.879
of chanting, the way of da da da.

00:42:58.884 --> 00:43:00.654
And of course, this actually
goes into Europe too.

00:43:00.684 --> 00:43:03.864
If you go across into Northern
Scandinavia, you're gonna find

00:43:03.864 --> 00:43:04.944
this with the Saami people.

00:43:04.944 --> 00:43:08.724
These are the last, if you like,
indigenous people left in Europe.

00:43:08.724 --> 00:43:10.764
But of course, everyone in
Europe is indigenous too.

00:43:11.304 --> 00:43:15.414
The Celts, the Vikings, you know, they
were all the people who were there.

00:43:15.414 --> 00:43:15.474
Yeah.

00:43:15.564 --> 00:43:15.894
Right.

00:43:16.344 --> 00:43:17.904
And we've all been killing each other.

00:43:18.924 --> 00:43:19.134
Brandy Tomhave: Yeah.

00:43:19.224 --> 00:43:24.204
Rupert Isaacson: With great enthusiasm
and committing genocide upon genocide

00:43:24.564 --> 00:43:29.274
on each other since the first person
threw their leg over the back of a horse

00:43:29.274 --> 00:43:30.744
and realized it made you super human.

00:43:31.224 --> 00:43:36.204
And it seems to have started in a place
in western Russia called Lake, where

00:43:36.204 --> 00:43:41.034
people began to breed horses for a higher
wither about 4,000 years ago, the way

00:43:41.034 --> 00:43:44.664
you could actually fix a saddle because
truly wild horses or have no wither

00:43:44.664 --> 00:43:46.314
so saddles, they're hard to stay on.

00:43:46.314 --> 00:43:47.064
Mm-hmm.

00:43:47.174 --> 00:43:49.454
And they exploded out of
there and killed everybody.

00:43:50.564 --> 00:43:56.954
And, and Mongolia, as you know, became the
most violent culture on the planet for.

00:43:57.374 --> 00:44:01.814
Centuries, you know, KU, k Genghis,
Khan, Tamerlan, these people who

00:44:01.814 --> 00:44:05.234
would like explode out of their,
kill everybody from the Pacific

00:44:05.234 --> 00:44:08.204
to the Mediterranean for 20 years.

00:44:08.204 --> 00:44:10.334
And then Atilla, Lahan,
you know, all these people.

00:44:10.514 --> 00:44:14.624
And then sort of run out of energy
retreat back to the heartland

00:44:14.624 --> 00:44:17.864
and then half a generation later
explode out and do it again.

00:44:18.134 --> 00:44:23.894
And then somewhere in the 17th century,
some Tibetan monks wandered over the Altai

00:44:23.894 --> 00:44:28.634
plateau into Mongolia and just started
talking about this thing called Buddhism.

00:44:29.054 --> 00:44:33.524
And like in a generation, they kind
of went, oh yeah, we don't have

00:44:33.524 --> 00:44:34.964
to do that genocide stuff anymore.

00:44:34.964 --> 00:44:35.174
Yeah.

00:44:35.204 --> 00:44:36.254
It's kind of a stupid idea.

00:44:36.404 --> 00:44:40.064
Yeah, let's just have a good time
here and you now go to Mongolia.

00:44:40.064 --> 00:44:41.594
And they're like the coolest
people on the planet.

00:44:42.134 --> 00:44:48.944
And that trauma that then went obviously
to the new world and everywhere else

00:44:48.944 --> 00:44:52.274
that was colonized was just simply
the process of colonization that'd

00:44:52.274 --> 00:44:54.914
been going on within Eurasia forever.

00:44:54.944 --> 00:44:57.974
And then it just, when people
figured their way across the

00:44:58.634 --> 00:45:00.974
big oceans, well they're just
gonna go do it over there now.

00:45:01.249 --> 00:45:01.539
Brandy Tomhave: Yeah.

00:45:01.544 --> 00:45:01.574
Yeah.

00:45:01.634 --> 00:45:06.474
Rupert Isaacson: And also the people that
they found in Africa and Native were also

00:45:06.474 --> 00:45:08.064
doing, frankly, doing it to each other.

00:45:08.304 --> 00:45:09.324
They were not saints.

00:45:09.964 --> 00:45:12.064
And so, okay.

00:45:12.064 --> 00:45:13.504
We're all as bad as each other.

00:45:13.504 --> 00:45:13.594
Mm-hmm.

00:45:14.379 --> 00:45:18.454
Except for the hunter gatherer
people who don't do that stuff.

00:45:19.234 --> 00:45:23.764
But anyone who is a herding culture
or a farming culture does this stuff.

00:45:24.514 --> 00:45:24.634
Mm-hmm.

00:45:24.874 --> 00:45:25.264
And

00:45:28.204 --> 00:45:29.854
so we have more in common
than we think we do.

00:45:30.754 --> 00:45:30.844
Brandy Tomhave: Mm-hmm.

00:45:31.414 --> 00:45:37.744
Rupert Isaacson: I also posit that
within white America, there is a, and

00:45:37.744 --> 00:45:41.434
we haven't talked about black America,
obviously there's also an inherited

00:45:41.434 --> 00:45:48.544
trauma of how they arrived because a
lot of people arrived in America because

00:45:48.544 --> 00:45:57.184
they were fleeing what was not so
great in Europe and encountered great

00:45:57.184 --> 00:45:59.044
hardship when they got to the Americas.

00:45:59.194 --> 00:46:03.544
'cause there were, you know, you could
be exploited pretty well and a lot of

00:46:03.544 --> 00:46:07.774
people, you know, arrived there also as
indenture, indentured labor and slaves.

00:46:07.924 --> 00:46:11.674
So the first slaves were actually
Irish and then they ran out of them

00:46:12.334 --> 00:46:15.364
and then started thinking, hmm, those
West Africans look quite useful.

00:46:15.364 --> 00:46:17.374
Let's get them across into the Caribbean.

00:46:17.374 --> 00:46:19.564
And, you know, brutal.

00:46:20.494 --> 00:46:27.694
And now we are all coming out of
this and looking at each other

00:46:27.694 --> 00:46:29.974
going, well, we're all still here.

00:46:31.744 --> 00:46:32.674
And you know what?

00:46:33.004 --> 00:46:35.524
We all love our dogs
and we love our horses.

00:46:37.114 --> 00:46:40.114
Is it not time to.

00:46:42.304 --> 00:46:44.014
Just admit that we're just all the same.

00:46:44.704 --> 00:46:48.844
And I think what you are doing is so
much a part of that and that this debt of

00:46:48.844 --> 00:46:51.064
gratitude that I've got to Native America.

00:46:51.844 --> 00:46:55.714
So for those who don't know the, a
lot of people know the story of how I

00:46:55.714 --> 00:46:59.044
went to Mongolia with my son, but what
they don't know maybe is that there's

00:46:59.044 --> 00:47:03.694
a follow up book called The Long Ride
Home, which details the three journeys

00:47:03.694 --> 00:47:09.574
that I was told to make by the Mongolian
Shaman ghost after he did his healing.

00:47:10.174 --> 00:47:13.234
And the last of those was
on the Navajo reservation.

00:47:13.414 --> 00:47:17.434
And I had already had a lot of
adventures on the Navajo reservation

00:47:17.744 --> 00:47:23.154
working in the human rights sector as
a journalist for sort of 10 or 15 years

00:47:23.154 --> 00:47:26.584
beforehand, I fell into it following
the story of an amazing woman called

00:47:26.584 --> 00:47:28.984
Roberta Black Goat, who refused.

00:47:28.984 --> 00:47:29.044
Yeah.

00:47:29.074 --> 00:47:30.094
You know, remember her?

00:47:30.514 --> 00:47:30.754
Yes.

00:47:30.754 --> 00:47:30.964
Yeah.

00:47:31.264 --> 00:47:34.714
She refused to move from that
contested land that the Peabody

00:47:34.714 --> 00:47:38.434
Coal Company were gonna blow up that
sacred mountain and she wouldn't go.

00:47:38.434 --> 00:47:39.619
That makes sense.

00:47:39.619 --> 00:47:46.584
And I went and stayed with her for a
while and back in the nineties and was so

00:47:46.584 --> 00:47:48.474
privileged to see that traditional life.

00:47:48.474 --> 00:47:53.124
And anyway, so then I eventually end
up there with my son and a healer

00:47:54.564 --> 00:47:58.314
whose name, his real name is Chi,
but he was also known as Blue Horse.

00:47:58.314 --> 00:48:02.334
And we call him Blue Horse in the book
because we wanted to protect his identity

00:48:02.334 --> 00:48:03.384
a little bit because he was still.

00:48:03.819 --> 00:48:07.179
We didn't want him getting overwhelmed,
but blue horse is often what he went by.

00:48:07.359 --> 00:48:14.169
And he would use horse energy after
he healed my son, the healing rituals.

00:48:14.379 --> 00:48:16.419
And then we sweated on my son's behalf.

00:48:16.689 --> 00:48:20.049
But then he also did a, a ritual
with making the fire and then

00:48:20.049 --> 00:48:25.239
in the ash, seeing the patterns
in the ash and interpreting what

00:48:25.239 --> 00:48:26.499
might be still be in my son.

00:48:26.499 --> 00:48:28.479
That need was unhelpful
and needed to come out.

00:48:29.769 --> 00:48:34.749
And then after we'd sweated all day,
my wife and I, not Rowan, we didn't

00:48:34.749 --> 00:48:35.739
put him through the sweat lodge.

00:48:35.839 --> 00:48:42.889
And then the dawn leaving the corn
pollen ceremony that was done at

00:48:42.889 --> 00:48:44.479
dawn on the rim of the canyon.

00:48:46.789 --> 00:48:52.999
My son was still very using, very
scripted language at this point and

00:48:53.299 --> 00:48:56.629
you couldn't really have a conversation
with him or like back, back and forth.

00:48:56.629 --> 00:48:57.169
Like we are.

00:48:58.309 --> 00:49:03.139
We get on highway I 40, interstate
40 heading out of the Navajo

00:49:03.139 --> 00:49:04.879
reservation towards Albuquerque.

00:49:05.839 --> 00:49:09.829
And as we go under Mount Taylor,
which as you know is the Eastern's

00:49:09.939 --> 00:49:12.699
boundary, there's this like truck
stop in a McDonald's, you know,

00:49:12.909 --> 00:49:16.689
very prosaic after we've done this
beautiful ceremony and so on and so on.

00:49:16.689 --> 00:49:19.359
And there's a truck stop and
McDonald's and in their, of

00:49:19.359 --> 00:49:21.279
course there's these terrible.

00:49:21.789 --> 00:49:25.029
Horrible drinks, slushies that have
the, all these chemicals in them.

00:49:25.029 --> 00:49:27.789
And I, my son wants one, and I don't
want to give him one because I know

00:49:27.789 --> 00:49:33.489
he'll send him nuts and he has a big
meltdown and we get back in the car

00:49:34.269 --> 00:49:37.089
and I'm like, oh God, you know, of
course you're gonna have a meltdown.

00:49:37.089 --> 00:49:38.859
You know, you know, go on then.

00:49:38.859 --> 00:49:40.149
You know, just knock yourself out.

00:49:40.149 --> 00:49:40.329
You know?

00:49:40.329 --> 00:49:42.159
I was grumpy because I hadn't slept.

00:49:42.159 --> 00:49:45.729
And, and he goes from the back, he
goes, I'm not being grumpy, Dan.

00:49:46.359 --> 00:49:47.769
I'm just telling you what drink I want.

00:49:49.209 --> 00:49:51.699
And I just pulled over on the shoulder

00:49:53.829 --> 00:49:55.809
and went, who are you?

00:49:57.969 --> 00:50:05.919
And from that moment on, we had actual
conversation, and it happened right

00:50:06.339 --> 00:50:12.549
through and after these ceremonies,
and I could go into more amazingness.

00:50:12.549 --> 00:50:16.449
That's happened on the Navajo
reservation, but the practice of

00:50:16.449 --> 00:50:19.179
horse boy method, which is how a lot
of people have come to this podcast.

00:50:19.179 --> 00:50:24.219
And now my work would not have
happened, but for the input of

00:50:25.389 --> 00:50:27.279
Navajo Nation, native America.

00:50:28.419 --> 00:50:31.599
And there was a generosity there.

00:50:31.959 --> 00:50:35.349
I think that's what I'm trying
to put my finger on, that

00:50:35.349 --> 00:50:38.169
said, look, you're a white boy.

00:50:40.209 --> 00:50:44.409
Your people have done terrible things to
our people, and we're frankly angry about

00:50:44.409 --> 00:50:48.879
it, but we see that your son needs help.

00:50:50.334 --> 00:50:51.954
And we are not gonna be wankers.

00:50:52.524 --> 00:50:53.874
We're absolutely gonna help him.

00:50:55.194 --> 00:50:57.924
And we just have to live
within that ambivalence.

00:50:59.964 --> 00:51:03.564
And the help that they
gave him was top notch.

00:51:06.414 --> 00:51:12.714
Talk to me about the concept of
generosity, animal to human, human

00:51:12.714 --> 00:51:15.834
to animal within Native America.

00:51:16.194 --> 00:51:20.364
And for people who are listening
or watching this who are

00:51:20.364 --> 00:51:24.174
practitioners of animal assisted
stuff, what can we learn from that?

00:51:28.524 --> 00:51:30.294
Brandy Tomhave: You ask
great questions, Rupert.

00:51:30.414 --> 00:51:35.634
I think that, as I said before,
every tribe is different, you know?

00:51:35.639 --> 00:51:35.739
Yeah.

00:51:35.744 --> 00:51:37.884
And I, I, I don't want to gloss over that.

00:51:37.884 --> 00:51:41.099
I, I, I want to really recognize
and, and ensure that we're

00:51:41.099 --> 00:51:44.004
Rupert Isaacson: indeed, but one can make
generalizations even about, say Europe.

00:51:44.034 --> 00:51:44.304
Okay.

00:51:44.304 --> 00:51:45.714
We're all different
nations and then we, yeah.

00:51:46.014 --> 00:51:48.444
European nation, we a
thousand different nations.

00:51:48.444 --> 00:51:51.564
And it's the same, but we can
also talk about Europe, you know?

00:51:51.624 --> 00:51:52.284
Yeah, yeah,

00:51:52.329 --> 00:51:52.619
Brandy Tomhave: yeah.

00:51:52.679 --> 00:51:53.499
So that said,

00:51:53.904 --> 00:51:54.204
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

00:51:54.479 --> 00:51:54.929
Brandy Tomhave: Yeah.

00:51:54.929 --> 00:52:00.709
It is such a a, a, a, a moral foundation.

00:52:01.639 --> 00:52:06.799
It's such a, a, a foundational value with
an every tribal community i, I know of.

00:52:06.799 --> 00:52:15.309
And it is, it's, it is how you begin and
the demonstration of generosity is really

00:52:15.309 --> 00:52:18.009
how you begin and end every interaction.

00:52:18.489 --> 00:52:20.649
I think that has been my experience.

00:52:20.679 --> 00:52:27.099
And so there is an expectation of
generosity as well in some communities,

00:52:27.099 --> 00:52:31.069
like, the Pacific Northwest communities
what we hear in my family call the

00:52:31.069 --> 00:52:34.819
fish tribes you know, there's potlatch,
there's a whole tradition of potlatch,

00:52:34.849 --> 00:52:39.789
communities, you know, where it's very
ritualistic and and very you know,

00:52:39.879 --> 00:52:44.499
ceremonially ostentatious and that,
you know, you give, give, give and

00:52:44.499 --> 00:52:48.459
then the, the, the extent which you
can give your status goes up, right?

00:52:48.459 --> 00:52:52.449
Like there's a, there's a direct
correlation between the, the capacity

00:52:52.849 --> 00:52:57.609
to give and, and and your standing
that is very specific to them.

00:52:58.869 --> 00:53:06.099
I too have experienced what nothing like
you and your son, but my experience as an

00:53:06.099 --> 00:53:11.559
outsider in tribal communities with whom
I've worked is extraordinary generosity

00:53:11.649 --> 00:53:18.259
to me and and a willingness to give me.

00:53:19.894 --> 00:53:21.724
The benefit of the doubt mm-hmm.

00:53:21.964 --> 00:53:22.324
To

00:53:22.414 --> 00:53:28.624
have faith that I am who I say I am,
and I am there for the reasons I state.

00:53:29.134 --> 00:53:29.284
Mm-hmm.

00:53:29.284 --> 00:53:29.374
And

00:53:29.884 --> 00:53:34.214
that's pretty extraordinary when
you think about how, how much

00:53:34.244 --> 00:53:36.404
native Trust has been betrayed.

00:53:36.734 --> 00:53:37.154
Mm-hmm.

00:53:37.394 --> 00:53:44.354
And yet it's it's still a social Um hmm.

00:53:45.074 --> 00:53:46.484
What's, what's the term I'm looking for?

00:53:46.484 --> 00:53:51.074
It's, it's, it's a social construct
that is very, it's a system of

00:53:51.074 --> 00:53:51.434
Rupert Isaacson: ethics.

00:53:52.154 --> 00:53:52.424
Brandy Tomhave: Yeah.

00:53:52.424 --> 00:53:53.354
There, there you go.

00:53:53.354 --> 00:53:54.584
A hundred percent.

00:53:55.214 --> 00:53:56.144
A hundred percent.

00:53:56.564 --> 00:54:03.444
And and I think that I, i not sure if this
answers your question directly, but I,

00:54:03.864 --> 00:54:09.894
in terms of between humans and animals,
there is an understanding that anything in

00:54:09.894 --> 00:54:12.564
everything an animal gives you is a gift.

00:54:12.564 --> 00:54:15.894
And it is to be respected
and honored, um mm-hmm.

00:54:16.134 --> 00:54:17.484
On a spiritual plane.

00:54:17.874 --> 00:54:22.914
And there is, so there is a
reciprocity between humans and animals.

00:54:23.334 --> 00:54:27.564
That is I think very special
within tribal communities.

00:54:27.564 --> 00:54:31.584
It's, it's, it's recognized in a very
special way and honored Ceremonially.

00:54:31.674 --> 00:54:34.704
Ceremonially, but then even
just casually, socially.

00:54:34.999 --> 00:54:35.289
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:54:35.294 --> 00:54:35.544
Yeah.

00:54:35.934 --> 00:54:40.064
Brandy Tomhave: They're not so much seen
as and again, this is a generalization

00:54:40.394 --> 00:54:43.784
and I apologize for that, but
they're not seen as beasts of burden.

00:54:43.784 --> 00:54:45.164
They're seen as relatives.

00:54:46.499 --> 00:54:47.819
Rupert Isaacson: This is the key.

00:54:47.879 --> 00:54:48.299
I think.

00:54:48.329 --> 00:54:51.629
So while you were talking earlier,
I was looking up on my phone

00:54:52.049 --> 00:54:55.719
Cartesian relationship to animals.

00:54:55.779 --> 00:55:00.279
So as you're probably aware, there
was in the 17th century a bloke

00:55:00.279 --> 00:55:02.409
called Decart who was a philosopher.

00:55:02.414 --> 00:55:02.534
Mm-hmm.

00:55:02.654 --> 00:55:02.774
Right?

00:55:02.774 --> 00:55:02.784
Mm-hmm.

00:55:03.399 --> 00:55:11.229
And he is basically more or less
considered responsible for the shift in

00:55:11.229 --> 00:55:21.309
Western thought to materialism, to saying,
you know, for example, consciousness

00:55:21.314 --> 00:55:30.609
comes from the brain, or the universe
is just a physical thing, or animals

00:55:31.359 --> 00:55:38.499
because they don't speak and express
emotion in the way that humans do,

00:55:38.499 --> 00:55:41.649
although they kind of do, I dunno how
he could have come up with that really.

00:55:41.649 --> 00:55:45.729
Because I mean, anyone observing a
mammal, you know, it's not that hard.

00:55:45.849 --> 00:55:51.399
It's not that different from us to say,
well, that means they don't have souls.

00:55:51.399 --> 00:55:52.779
And if they don't have souls.

00:55:53.379 --> 00:55:57.939
Then they just be suburban and
therefore they don't actually suffer.

00:55:57.939 --> 00:55:59.679
So it doesn't matter
how much you abuse them.

00:56:00.399 --> 00:56:02.019
Brandy Tomhave: And it's
a very atomized view.

00:56:02.199 --> 00:56:03.039
Rupert Isaacson: It is, it is.

00:56:03.039 --> 00:56:05.739
Now, it was not always the
European view by any means.

00:56:05.819 --> 00:56:09.179
So, you know, you talked about like the
potlatch and that kind of gift giving.

00:56:09.389 --> 00:56:10.979
That's Viking culture, right?

00:56:11.099 --> 00:56:13.769
And that's Germanic horse culture.

00:56:13.889 --> 00:56:18.989
The goths, the vandals, the, you know,
you talk, but what it, what that Cartesian

00:56:19.199 --> 00:56:25.439
thing does come from is a little bit the
ancient, the cultures of the ancient world

00:56:25.799 --> 00:56:33.599
starting in Mesopotamia, going into Egypt,
then Greece and Rome, which were basically

00:56:33.689 --> 00:56:40.049
justifying slavery, you know, and again,
we haven't talked about the experience

00:56:40.049 --> 00:56:43.979
of of, of black America and of course
black America and Native America often

00:56:43.979 --> 00:56:48.629
quite intertwined because Native American
generosity would often give sanctuary to

00:56:49.619 --> 00:56:54.999
runaway escaped slaves, which would bring
down the wr of the feds upon the Native

00:56:54.999 --> 00:56:56.469
Americans, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:56:56.779 --> 00:57:02.479
And there's many black native American
tribes from the southern US all the way

00:57:02.479 --> 00:57:06.739
down into Central and South America,
like the Garner and okay, okay.

00:57:06.769 --> 00:57:10.759
The Mosquito Indians and so on, Seminoles.

00:57:11.359 --> 00:57:16.839
But this Cartesian view of animals
I think was just a kind of an

00:57:16.839 --> 00:57:18.969
inheritance of a certain kind of.

00:57:20.919 --> 00:57:28.809
Ancient world urbanized justification of
enslaving any entity, human or animal.

00:57:30.609 --> 00:57:37.069
And that, of course in the 19th
century expressed itself in

00:57:37.069 --> 00:57:38.689
America as manifest destiny.

00:57:40.519 --> 00:57:43.399
And therefore, well,
you can't stop progress.

00:57:43.399 --> 00:57:46.129
So these people are in the
way, and it doesn't really

00:57:46.129 --> 00:57:47.029
matter what we do with them.

00:57:47.029 --> 00:57:50.389
And anyway, we're again, give them the
roads just like the Romans did, gonna

00:57:50.389 --> 00:57:51.889
give 'em roads and things like that.

00:57:51.889 --> 00:57:54.649
So, you know, it doesn't really
matter what we go in there and do.

00:57:55.639 --> 00:57:58.609
And therefore it doesn't matter to
the animals that what we do to the

00:57:58.609 --> 00:57:59.749
animals that carry us in there.

00:58:00.474 --> 00:58:00.894
Mm-hmm.

00:58:01.019 --> 00:58:08.749
So I think by the time, say, native
American people sitting on a horse, were

00:58:08.749 --> 00:58:16.459
looking across at, say, a settler or a
US cavalry man sitting on a horse, then

00:58:16.459 --> 00:58:22.399
you'd have two very, very, very different
perceptions of what this horse meant.

00:58:22.399 --> 00:58:23.209
Brandy Tomhave: Mm-hmm.

00:58:23.789 --> 00:58:24.059
Rupert Isaacson: And what's

00:58:24.059 --> 00:58:25.139
Brandy Tomhave: happening in that moment

00:58:25.229 --> 00:58:28.169
Rupert Isaacson: and what this
land meant and what this human

00:58:28.169 --> 00:58:30.239
relationship ought to be.

00:58:30.689 --> 00:58:36.749
Because we also know that the vast
majority of Indian tribes actually were

00:58:36.749 --> 00:58:40.349
quite good to the whites when they first
showed up and then regretted it later.

00:58:41.654 --> 00:58:42.914
That generosity, again,

00:58:45.284 --> 00:58:54.584
my feeling having spent a bit of time on
in Native America is that could we, as the

00:58:54.584 --> 00:59:02.834
white inheritors of that decar, Cartesian,
I think is the word viewpoint, who are now

00:59:03.554 --> 00:59:05.024
going Yeah, of course animals have souls.

00:59:05.024 --> 00:59:07.454
Of course we must have relationships
with animals of course.

00:59:07.514 --> 00:59:10.964
And now that, you know, you got the
Native Americans probably looking

00:59:10.964 --> 00:59:12.254
at there going, yeah, no, no shit.

00:59:12.254 --> 00:59:13.124
Sherlock, you know,

00:59:13.574 --> 00:59:17.294
Brandy Tomhave: well they think about one
health, the whole notion of one health go.

00:59:17.294 --> 00:59:17.564
It's like,

00:59:18.734 --> 00:59:18.914
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

00:59:18.919 --> 00:59:19.159
Have you

00:59:19.159 --> 00:59:19.754
Brandy Tomhave: heard that one?

00:59:19.754 --> 00:59:20.039
Yeah, right.

00:59:20.139 --> 00:59:20.559
No, no.

00:59:20.559 --> 00:59:21.159
Rupert Isaacson: Talk to me about that.

00:59:21.159 --> 00:59:21.399
Yeah.

00:59:21.704 --> 00:59:22.304
Brandy Tomhave: Oh, I'm sorry.

00:59:22.304 --> 00:59:23.504
I didn't mean to interrupt.

00:59:23.504 --> 00:59:23.564
No, no,

00:59:23.564 --> 00:59:23.774
Rupert Isaacson: please.

00:59:24.404 --> 00:59:24.734
Brandy Tomhave: Yeah.

00:59:24.734 --> 00:59:28.204
So one health is this concept, right?

00:59:28.204 --> 00:59:32.554
That animal health and human health
are completely interrelated and

00:59:32.554 --> 00:59:36.154
therefore must be considered together.

00:59:36.484 --> 00:59:39.664
And, you know, the world
Health Organization has a

00:59:39.664 --> 00:59:43.174
big one health program, okay?

00:59:43.224 --> 00:59:46.044
The United States at least, I
don't know what time it is, they

00:59:46.044 --> 00:59:48.564
used to have a one health program.

00:59:50.334 --> 00:59:51.214
Really, I can't give up.

00:59:51.269 --> 00:59:51.559
Okay.

00:59:51.654 --> 00:59:51.954
Yeah.

00:59:52.254 --> 00:59:56.874
But you know, it's just for native
people when they hear about One

00:59:56.874 --> 01:00:03.214
Health and these fancy found basically
white, highly hyper educated white

01:00:03.214 --> 01:00:06.664
professionals come into their community
to tell them about One health.

01:00:07.174 --> 01:00:13.084
What they're really doing is saying back
to native people what they have always

01:00:13.084 --> 01:00:14.974
known and have never stopped practicing.

01:00:14.974 --> 01:00:20.244
And that is that, you know, the human
life and animal life is completely

01:00:20.244 --> 01:00:23.484
interconnected, and that is true
on the spiritual plane as well as

01:00:23.484 --> 01:00:26.244
the, the practical physical plane.

01:00:26.244 --> 01:00:31.004
And so of course our health is
interrelated and that's not any kind of

01:00:31.004 --> 01:00:35.744
aha moment in Indian country, and they
just sort of chuckle, you know, because

01:00:35.744 --> 01:00:38.114
they tend to be a very polite people.

01:00:38.444 --> 01:00:43.054
And so anyway, yeah, that's one health
and it feels kind of like an appropriation

01:00:43.114 --> 01:00:48.494
of an essential native value that,
you know, sort of Western medicine

01:00:48.494 --> 01:00:54.194
has figured out how to commoditize
and, and brand, but we're all for it.

01:00:56.384 --> 01:00:56.804
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:00:57.614 --> 01:00:58.514
Provided, yeah.

01:00:58.664 --> 01:01:00.554
Put the money where the
mouth is if possible.

01:01:01.334 --> 01:01:01.424
Brandy Tomhave: Mm-hmm.

01:01:02.234 --> 01:01:06.574
Rupert Isaacson: If if someone is
listening to this conversation from, say,

01:01:10.024 --> 01:01:11.614
Slovakia or.

01:01:13.114 --> 01:01:19.384
Pakistan, let alone Leicestershire
in England or Ohio in the States.

01:01:21.604 --> 01:01:27.724
And they are practitioners, let's say
they animal assisted practitioners.

01:01:27.964 --> 01:01:29.074
Doesn't have to just be equine.

01:01:31.099 --> 01:01:36.574
What would be the sort of, it
doesn't have to be the one thing,

01:01:36.574 --> 01:01:42.754
what would be the paramount things
that you think they could learn from

01:01:45.364 --> 01:01:47.524
the Native American way of relating to

01:01:50.074 --> 01:01:56.134
particularly companion animals that could
help all of us better our practice, no

01:01:56.134 --> 01:01:57.989
matter what culture we're coming out of?

01:02:08.644 --> 01:02:09.964
Brandy Tomhave: You
know, this is so simple.

01:02:10.199 --> 01:02:14.554
I fear it will sound trite, but I'm
gonna share with you something that

01:02:14.554 --> 01:02:20.014
someone recently shared with me that
just really landed for me and has

01:02:20.014 --> 01:02:23.039
been changing for me as a person.

01:02:23.344 --> 01:02:28.809
And it is so simple, which
is to recognize that,

01:02:31.204 --> 01:02:32.044
that maybe.

01:02:33.814 --> 01:02:38.284
Our job every day is really simple,
and that is to be a good relative,

01:02:38.674 --> 01:02:40.384
be a good relative to these animals.

01:02:41.824 --> 01:02:47.314
When you really boil something down
to, to something that basic, all of

01:02:47.314 --> 01:02:52.984
a sudden anything seems possible and
practical, like what does that mean?

01:02:53.194 --> 01:02:59.944
What you know, this is, you know, my
dog Luke and the Choctaw people raise

01:02:59.944 --> 01:03:05.064
these cattle hula leopard dogs to hunt
for bears and, and pigs in the swamps.

01:03:05.454 --> 01:03:09.914
And and he loves to get in on a good
zoom call, so my apologies, but no,

01:03:09.914 --> 01:03:10.394
Rupert Isaacson: he's a gentleman.

01:03:10.439 --> 01:03:10.679
Yeah.

01:03:10.994 --> 01:03:11.414
Brandy Tomhave: Yeah.

01:03:11.414 --> 01:03:18.134
I really try to be a good relative
to Luke, which means that I try every

01:03:18.134 --> 01:03:22.604
day to put myself in his place and
think what's a good day for Luke?

01:03:22.904 --> 01:03:25.454
And make time for that and do that thing.

01:03:25.874 --> 01:03:29.254
And I think that I'm not
well traveled like you are.

01:03:29.254 --> 01:03:32.854
I haven't been all over the world,
so I don't know what would resonate

01:03:32.854 --> 01:03:34.714
for people outside the United States.

01:03:34.714 --> 01:03:39.249
But if it's someone in Ohio, like
you mentioned, I think it would

01:03:39.454 --> 01:03:45.044
be to understand that when you
are treating when you're dealing

01:03:45.044 --> 01:03:48.854
with an a companion animal, the.

01:03:49.409 --> 01:03:51.269
You are dealing with a companion.

01:03:51.569 --> 01:03:53.129
It doesn't matter if
they're an animal or not.

01:03:53.129 --> 01:03:53.219
Mm-hmm.

01:03:53.459 --> 01:03:59.879
It's the companionship that, the, the
whole thing, everything should pivot upon.

01:04:00.209 --> 01:04:04.139
So you have to deal with
both ends of the leash.

01:04:04.199 --> 01:04:04.709
Right.

01:04:04.919 --> 01:04:06.959
Don't just treat the animal.

01:04:07.379 --> 01:04:12.299
Treat the animal and the person who
is their relative, it's like cancer.

01:04:12.509 --> 01:04:14.729
Cancer happens to the whole family.

01:04:14.999 --> 01:04:19.559
You can't just treat the patient,
you treat the whole family because

01:04:19.559 --> 01:04:21.509
otherwise the patient won't do well.

01:04:21.539 --> 01:04:23.009
The patient will not thrive.

01:04:23.129 --> 01:04:24.554
And I think you could

01:04:24.674 --> 01:04:26.399
Rupert Isaacson: actually say
the same for autism and Yeah.

01:04:26.399 --> 01:04:26.699
Yeah.

01:04:26.699 --> 01:04:27.209
Absolutely.

01:04:27.324 --> 01:04:28.314
Serve the whole family.

01:04:28.834 --> 01:04:28.994
Absolutely.

01:04:28.994 --> 01:04:29.234
Serve

01:04:29.234 --> 01:04:29.754
Brandy Tomhave: the whole family.

01:04:29.969 --> 01:04:31.889
I think that, and so,
yeah, be a good relative.

01:04:32.819 --> 01:04:33.839
Rupert Isaacson: Be a good relative.

01:04:34.049 --> 01:04:35.519
That doesn't sound trite at all.

01:04:36.329 --> 01:04:36.899
Okay.

01:04:38.339 --> 01:04:41.749
Now speaking of being good relatives
couple of challenging questions back

01:04:41.749 --> 01:04:48.529
to the perception from outsiders
of how animals might get treated

01:04:48.529 --> 01:04:52.489
differently in Native American context.

01:04:52.489 --> 01:04:55.279
And again, I think this will
help us understand about our

01:04:56.059 --> 01:04:57.979
relationship to animals in general.

01:04:58.679 --> 01:05:04.059
So I was recently at a equine
conference in the USA another

01:05:04.059 --> 01:05:07.249
one after we've met in Florida.

01:05:07.309 --> 01:05:13.749
And it is part run by people who are
very much Mustang Mustang advocates.

01:05:14.739 --> 01:05:22.149
And one of the topics of conversation
that came up in these presentations

01:05:22.149 --> 01:05:24.189
was that there is a problem.

01:05:24.309 --> 01:05:31.839
I was told on Reserv Indian
reservations where Mustangs are

01:05:32.949 --> 01:05:34.569
rounded up wholesale and sold for meat.

01:05:35.559 --> 01:05:36.729
I don't know if this is true or not.

01:05:37.469 --> 01:05:40.049
And they were saying this is part of
the general problem 'cause it's also

01:05:40.049 --> 01:05:42.089
going on outside of Native America.

01:05:42.089 --> 01:05:47.009
But they said, you know, we can, we
can affect it to some degree within

01:05:47.009 --> 01:05:49.829
white America, but Native American
nations are, they're sovereign

01:05:49.829 --> 01:05:53.879
nations, so we can't really go in
there and do anything to better the

01:05:54.449 --> 01:05:57.209
the lot of those mustangs there.

01:05:57.719 --> 01:06:00.119
And I heard that and I was like,
well that's interesting because,

01:06:00.329 --> 01:06:04.859
you know, I know the plains cultures
in particular, the Western American

01:06:04.859 --> 01:06:09.359
cultures of Native America to be
very horse friendly, very pro horse.

01:06:09.899 --> 01:06:15.479
So I wonder what the real story here is.

01:06:15.709 --> 01:06:19.259
And of course, of course I thought of
you and I thought, I wonder what Brandy

01:06:19.289 --> 01:06:20.609
would say if she was in the room.

01:06:21.149 --> 01:06:24.839
So this is kind of my ch chance to
ask you a little bit about that.

01:06:25.139 --> 01:06:25.889
What, what do you think?

01:06:25.894 --> 01:06:26.084
Yeah,

01:06:27.449 --> 01:06:27.509
Brandy Tomhave: yeah.

01:06:27.509 --> 01:06:27.904
Well, so.

01:06:29.069 --> 01:06:30.809
I think this is really complicated.

01:06:31.049 --> 01:06:31.109
Yeah.

01:06:31.139 --> 01:06:36.149
And my time to confess, this is why
the Native American Humane Society does

01:06:36.149 --> 01:06:40.139
not include within its scope horses.

01:06:41.129 --> 01:06:41.159
Okay.

01:06:41.159 --> 01:06:43.079
Because it is so complex.

01:06:43.229 --> 01:06:48.629
And honestly, if we can be impactful, you
know, regarding companion animals will

01:06:48.629 --> 01:06:54.629
have really done a good job achieving
a, a a, a mission for native people.

01:06:58.109 --> 01:07:01.589
This is complicated
because of the land, right?

01:07:01.979 --> 01:07:02.069
Mm-hmm.

01:07:02.519 --> 01:07:05.809
So I'm gonna tell you I don't have a
definitive answer for you, but I can give

01:07:05.809 --> 01:07:07.819
you a couple of scenarios that Right.

01:07:08.029 --> 01:07:08.449
And I'm not

01:07:08.449 --> 01:07:09.619
Rupert Isaacson: looking
for a definitive answer.

01:07:09.624 --> 01:07:09.694
Answer.

01:07:09.699 --> 01:07:10.699
I'm looking for a discussion.

01:07:10.759 --> 01:07:11.374
Yeah, yeah, yeah,

01:07:11.374 --> 01:07:11.614
Brandy Tomhave: yeah.

01:07:12.079 --> 01:07:20.159
So, the Salt River Pima Indian tribe
in Arizona have an extraordinary

01:07:20.159 --> 01:07:23.729
program that is a WildHorse sanctuary.

01:07:24.209 --> 01:07:24.239
Mm.

01:07:24.629 --> 01:07:27.389
It's, it's amazing.

01:07:27.389 --> 01:07:29.169
And the next time you're
here, we should go there.

01:07:29.169 --> 01:07:29.434
Salt

01:07:29.434 --> 01:07:30.554
Rupert Isaacson: River Pima in Arizona.

01:07:30.584 --> 01:07:31.034
Brandy Tomhave: Salt River.

01:07:31.039 --> 01:07:31.229
Yeah.

01:07:31.229 --> 01:07:32.099
In Scottsdale.

01:07:33.359 --> 01:07:33.959
Ah, you usually said

01:07:33.959 --> 01:07:35.939
Rupert Isaacson: that
Sounds like Phoenix to me.

01:07:35.999 --> 01:07:36.599
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:07:36.629 --> 01:07:36.659
Okay.

01:07:36.664 --> 01:07:36.914
Yeah.

01:07:37.199 --> 01:07:40.469
Brandy Tomhave: You associates Scottsdale
with, you know, country clubs and

01:07:40.529 --> 01:07:41.069
Rupert Isaacson: golf courses.

01:07:41.099 --> 01:07:41.159
Yeah.

01:07:41.159 --> 01:07:41.549
Resort

01:07:41.549 --> 01:07:41.939
Brandy Tomhave: living.

01:07:41.939 --> 01:07:42.569
Sure.

01:07:42.879 --> 01:07:46.329
But the Salt River Pima are
still there and they have this.

01:07:46.764 --> 01:07:51.294
Extraordinary WildHorse,
you know, Mustang sanctuary.

01:07:51.864 --> 01:07:51.954
Mm-hmm.

01:07:52.144 --> 01:07:57.304
The same is true of the Hoopa Indians in
Northern California on the Pacific Coast.

01:07:57.334 --> 01:08:01.954
The two could not situationally
be more different from each other,

01:08:02.074 --> 01:08:04.414
and you are absolutely right there.

01:08:04.474 --> 01:08:11.674
There is this thriving, beautiful
horse culture within Indian country.

01:08:11.854 --> 01:08:15.124
And also we have a little land problem.

01:08:15.734 --> 01:08:20.974
There's a once a really funny native
comedian named Charlie Hill who

01:08:20.974 --> 01:08:25.294
went on David, the David Letterman
show a nighttime talk show here

01:08:25.594 --> 01:08:28.704
and said you know, so Indians
have a little real estate problem.

01:08:29.304 --> 01:08:33.024
And that real estate problem
is a real problem for animals.

01:08:33.474 --> 01:08:34.734
Two legged M four-legged.

01:08:35.124 --> 01:08:38.744
And, and for wild horses especially.

01:08:40.004 --> 01:08:45.764
So Indian reservations are primarily,
not exclusively, but most of,

01:08:45.824 --> 01:08:48.674
mostly comprised of federal land.

01:08:49.814 --> 01:08:51.614
That means it's not private land.

01:08:51.614 --> 01:08:54.224
It cannot be owned in fee.

01:08:54.404 --> 01:08:56.024
It cannot be bought or sold.

01:08:56.024 --> 01:08:58.334
It's being held in trust
for the benefit of.

01:08:58.724 --> 01:09:00.824
Tribes by the federal government.

01:09:01.244 --> 01:09:03.944
That means there is no property tax base.

01:09:04.034 --> 01:09:09.824
And that is why you don't see animal
welfare programs and systems on

01:09:09.824 --> 01:09:13.184
Indian reservations because a tribe
doesn't have the capacity to raise,

01:09:13.274 --> 01:09:17.774
raise revenue for animal systems
like local towns or counties.

01:09:17.774 --> 01:09:20.024
The way all that stuff
is paid for is to, can

01:09:20.024 --> 01:09:21.464
Rupert Isaacson: I just go
devil's advocate for a moment?

01:09:21.464 --> 01:09:24.704
'cause I can hear a whole bunch of
Americans saying, what about the casinos?

01:09:25.904 --> 01:09:26.324
Brandy Tomhave: Yeah.

01:09:26.324 --> 01:09:31.664
So the casinos are the most regulated
tribal casinos are the most regulated

01:09:31.664 --> 01:09:33.519
businesses in the United States, right?

01:09:33.794 --> 01:09:36.914
And who benefits the most from
tribal casinos are states.

01:09:36.914 --> 01:09:41.554
And that's pursuant to the federal law
that allows tribal gaming the Native

01:09:41.554 --> 01:09:43.804
American Indian gaming actor niga.

01:09:43.834 --> 01:09:48.034
And so that's all been negotiated by
the federal government and the states.

01:09:48.064 --> 01:09:55.204
So the states get the most and the
extent that tribes, tribal casinos are

01:09:55.994 --> 01:10:01.964
profitable, they are typically being
managed by the big gaming concerns.

01:10:01.964 --> 01:10:02.414
Right?

01:10:02.654 --> 01:10:07.694
So, I would just like to say for the
record that what you see when you

01:10:07.694 --> 01:10:13.734
see a successful tribal casino is
not a moneymaking machine that is

01:10:13.734 --> 01:10:19.104
exclusively for the benefit of the
tribe, which is what we all assume.

01:10:19.254 --> 01:10:19.644
Right.

01:10:19.794 --> 01:10:21.504
And so, you'd be surprised.

01:10:21.504 --> 01:10:23.214
Rupert Isaacson: Would, or, or
hope, we would hope as well.

01:10:23.214 --> 01:10:23.244
Oh,

01:10:23.244 --> 01:10:23.424
Brandy Tomhave: right.

01:10:23.424 --> 01:10:24.084
We would hope so.

01:10:24.084 --> 01:10:25.734
But that's usually not the case.

01:10:25.734 --> 01:10:27.924
And then those monies are
already identified in terms

01:10:27.924 --> 01:10:28.884
of how they can be spent.

01:10:28.884 --> 01:10:31.159
So that's, that's why not, and then,

01:10:31.269 --> 01:10:31.559
Rupert Isaacson: okay.

01:10:31.589 --> 01:10:32.039
Good answer.

01:10:32.139 --> 01:10:32.359
And,

01:10:32.379 --> 01:10:37.694
Brandy Tomhave: and then those monies are
prioritized for, for human needs education

01:10:37.874 --> 01:10:39.914
is at the top of every tribe's list.

01:10:39.914 --> 01:10:41.534
Every tribe that has a
casino is spending money.

01:10:41.534 --> 01:10:45.824
They're, they're plowing it
into education, housing, senior

01:10:45.824 --> 01:10:49.244
services, stuff like that, including
my own, the Choctaw Nation.

01:10:49.514 --> 01:10:51.404
So, that's why not the tribal casino.

01:10:51.584 --> 01:10:54.284
So now you've got land that
can't, there's no tax base for it.

01:10:55.154 --> 01:11:03.064
And you have federal agencies that really
dictate what can be, how that land can be

01:11:03.064 --> 01:11:06.964
used, what can be done on the land and out
west it's the Bureau of Land Management.

01:11:07.114 --> 01:11:07.174
Yeah.

01:11:07.354 --> 01:11:12.204
And, you know, BLM are really the
the decision makers when it comes

01:11:12.204 --> 01:11:15.954
to wild horses in the western part
of the United States, which is

01:11:16.074 --> 01:11:17.304
Rupert Isaacson: including on Indian land.

01:11:17.884 --> 01:11:18.174
Brandy Tomhave: Yeah.

01:11:18.524 --> 01:11:18.814
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:11:18.814 --> 01:11:18.824
Yeah.

01:11:18.824 --> 01:11:19.119
Yeah.

01:11:19.839 --> 01:11:23.349
Brandy Tomhave: And so, the
tribe has a seat at the table,

01:11:23.799 --> 01:11:26.169
but BLM is calling the shots.

01:11:26.409 --> 01:11:26.499
Rupert Isaacson: I see.

01:11:27.099 --> 01:11:34.749
Brandy Tomhave: And so the decision
making is structurally complicated.

01:11:35.259 --> 01:11:42.794
The agendas are nuanced and

01:11:43.054 --> 01:11:43.474
mm-hmm.

01:11:44.109 --> 01:11:45.429
And competing.

01:11:45.879 --> 01:11:51.949
And so for example, if you have
a, a herding nation, right?

01:11:51.949 --> 01:11:51.959
Mm-hmm.

01:11:52.219 --> 01:11:54.019
You have grazing permits

01:11:54.019 --> 01:11:54.469
mm-hmm.

01:11:55.039 --> 01:12:00.799
And people who have grazing permits
and those grazing, if you can't own

01:12:00.799 --> 01:12:09.889
land, having a grazing permit is the
only chance you have to exert agency

01:12:10.489 --> 01:12:13.249
over land as though it is your own.

01:12:13.669 --> 01:12:13.849
Right.

01:12:13.939 --> 01:12:14.059
So

01:12:15.979 --> 01:12:22.279
what a wild horse can represent to a
native family with a grazing permit

01:12:22.279 --> 01:12:30.589
who's running sheep, is like an
existential threat to their own existence.

01:12:31.489 --> 01:12:37.069
And it's likely that a tribal
community where there's a lot of

01:12:37.069 --> 01:12:41.509
hurting is also a tribal community
where there's a lot of poverty.

01:12:42.259 --> 01:12:43.819
So the opportunity.

01:12:44.194 --> 01:12:45.694
To make money

01:12:47.904 --> 01:12:49.074
Rupert Isaacson: by
herding those wild horses.

01:12:49.074 --> 01:12:49.554
Yeah, yeah.

01:12:49.554 --> 01:12:49.944
By herding

01:12:49.944 --> 01:12:53.694
Brandy Tomhave: those wild horses may
look different to them than to me.

01:12:54.024 --> 01:12:54.264
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:12:54.594 --> 01:12:58.254
Brandy Tomhave: And I have, yeah.

01:12:58.254 --> 01:12:59.604
So it, so it does happen.

01:13:00.144 --> 01:13:00.234
Mm-hmm.

01:13:00.534 --> 01:13:03.924
It is controversial within tribal
communities because you have traditional

01:13:03.924 --> 01:13:09.414
families who think it's an abomination,
that it's a betrayal of traditional

01:13:09.414 --> 01:13:13.364
Native American beliefs, and then you have
other families who think it's survival.

01:13:14.264 --> 01:13:14.324
Yeah.

01:13:14.324 --> 01:13:15.854
And it's, it's us or them.

01:13:16.454 --> 01:13:23.434
And and I don't know how to
mediate that because both are true.

01:13:24.154 --> 01:13:24.454
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:13:24.574 --> 01:13:24.784
Yeah.

01:13:24.784 --> 01:13:26.134
No, I, I, I hear you.

01:13:26.134 --> 01:13:28.294
And I don't think there's an easy answer.

01:13:28.804 --> 01:13:35.404
It's an interesting discussion because
it, it brings up this whole other

01:13:35.404 --> 01:13:42.364
discussion of, you know, are horses feral
in the United States or are they native?

01:13:42.904 --> 01:13:48.514
Because although the conquistadors
did bring them back, they had actually

01:13:48.514 --> 01:13:53.924
been here they had been present some
thousands of years before and then had

01:13:53.924 --> 01:13:57.614
gone, and that's why they thrive so well.

01:13:58.104 --> 01:14:02.514
Because it is actually original
habitat and it creates a really

01:14:02.514 --> 01:14:04.314
interesting ecological discussion.

01:14:05.349 --> 01:14:08.979
Particularly, as you say, if the
people having that discussion or

01:14:08.979 --> 01:14:12.609
leading that discussion are the
descendants of the conquistadors.

01:14:12.999 --> 01:14:18.869
And I don't think we're gonna arrive
at a definitive answer, but I think

01:14:18.899 --> 01:14:23.459
what's useful about those types of
questions is that they just draw

01:14:23.459 --> 01:14:27.119
attention to the fact that there
are all, all sorts of ambiguities.

01:14:27.659 --> 01:14:32.969
And to get anywhere real in
life, one actually has to deal

01:14:32.999 --> 01:14:34.799
in ambiguity and compromise.

01:14:35.519 --> 01:14:37.319
I think you answered that very well.

01:14:37.529 --> 01:14:44.669
I've got a second question, which is,
I know of one good, doesn't mean that

01:14:44.699 --> 01:14:49.049
there aren't others, but I only happen to
know of one person who's really working

01:14:49.049 --> 01:14:52.709
in the equine assisted sphere within
Native America and making a difference.

01:14:52.709 --> 01:14:54.509
There's a woman called
Jessica Jessica White Plum.

01:14:55.379 --> 01:15:00.029
And I want to get her on this show
and I can't find her email address.

01:15:00.029 --> 01:15:04.649
And I, I keep trying because she was on
Warwick Schiller's podcast, the Journey

01:15:04.649 --> 01:15:05.909
on podcast, which is really good.

01:15:05.909 --> 01:15:12.959
And I've met her and she's doing amazing
work with that in Native America.

01:15:12.959 --> 01:15:14.459
And I, I would like to get involved.

01:15:14.849 --> 01:15:20.909
And then I had also spent some time
on the Nez PE reservation years ago

01:15:21.089 --> 01:15:24.359
when I was following the release of.

01:15:25.739 --> 01:15:29.039
Of wolves into the American West.

01:15:29.039 --> 01:15:32.219
And I followed that in its early
stages in the nineties as a journalist.

01:15:32.699 --> 01:15:35.759
And you, you may well be familiar with
this, but it's very interesting, you

01:15:35.759 --> 01:15:39.459
know, in Yellowstone the wolves were
released and the, there's no doubt

01:15:39.459 --> 01:15:42.489
that the ecology benefited massively.

01:15:42.819 --> 01:15:47.319
And then the Wol have since gone
out and colonized many other places.

01:15:47.319 --> 01:15:49.359
And some people love
it, some people hate it.

01:15:49.359 --> 01:15:53.769
But what's nice is they're back
in the neighboring state of Idaho.

01:15:53.769 --> 01:15:57.099
So that was Wyoming, Montana,
as you know, in Idaho, which

01:15:57.339 --> 01:15:58.899
has a sliver of Yellowstone.

01:15:59.519 --> 01:16:07.379
The government moved in very quickly
to try to scupper and sabotage the

01:16:07.379 --> 01:16:08.879
Wolf Free Introduction program there.

01:16:09.089 --> 01:16:13.859
And it was the Nez Pece Indians who
stepped up casino owners Interesting.

01:16:14.609 --> 01:16:17.999
And said, actually, for us, the
wolves are a symbol of family.

01:16:18.599 --> 01:16:19.529
We want them back.

01:16:20.369 --> 01:16:21.179
And they funded it.

01:16:21.959 --> 01:16:25.099
And but what they also did, as
you know, the Nez pe, they're

01:16:25.099 --> 01:16:26.239
very much a horse culture.

01:16:26.839 --> 01:16:26.929
Mm-hmm.

01:16:27.169 --> 01:16:32.419
And appaloosa horses in the us
Well, that's the Nez PE Indians.

01:16:33.349 --> 01:16:35.959
Any of us who own an appaloosa
have ever owned an appaloosa.

01:16:36.259 --> 01:16:36.589
Okay.

01:16:36.589 --> 01:16:43.519
Maybe they actually came from Kanab rubber
lines brought over by, from Europe by the.

01:16:44.314 --> 01:16:44.794
Spanish.

01:16:44.824 --> 01:16:45.304
Okay.

01:16:45.424 --> 01:16:49.684
But nonetheless, taken by the Nez
person, whole culture and a whole breed.

01:16:50.314 --> 01:16:54.394
And they had a program for quite a
long time with youth which I looked

01:16:54.394 --> 01:16:57.994
at a little bit when I was there
with appaloosa breeding and training.

01:16:58.744 --> 01:17:02.704
Are you aware of what's going on
within Native America, within these

01:17:02.709 --> 01:17:05.314
sort of equine assisted things at all?

01:17:05.314 --> 01:17:10.144
And ha what if, so I know this
is outside of your dog companion.

01:17:10.144 --> 01:17:10.204
Yeah.

01:17:10.774 --> 01:17:16.714
But, but what, are there conversations
going on and what are you aware of?

01:17:18.424 --> 01:17:21.354
Brandy Tomhave: So, I'm not
aware of enough, as much

01:17:21.354 --> 01:17:22.914
as I should, so, uh mm-hmm.

01:17:23.364 --> 01:17:27.234
No, I, so I just wanna mention, yeah,
I've heard of Jessica White plume too.

01:17:27.264 --> 01:17:29.844
I similarly would love to chat with her.

01:17:29.844 --> 01:17:31.344
So maybe you and I can,

01:17:31.344 --> 01:17:32.994
Rupert Isaacson: Jessica,
are you watching this?

01:17:32.994 --> 01:17:33.144
Can you?

01:17:33.144 --> 01:17:33.789
That's right.

01:17:33.789 --> 01:17:33.949
Yeah.

01:17:36.209 --> 01:17:41.769
if you're a horse nerd, and if you're on
this podcast, I'm guessing you are, then

01:17:41.779 --> 01:17:46.769
you've probably also always wondered a
little bit about the old master system.

01:17:47.234 --> 01:17:48.544
of dressage training.

01:17:48.584 --> 01:17:57.154
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony
program, we outline there step by step

01:17:57.224 --> 01:18:03.504
exactly how to train your horse from
the ground to become the dressage horse

01:18:03.514 --> 01:18:10.034
of your dreams in a way that absolutely
serves the physical, mental and emotional

01:18:10.084 --> 01:18:12.854
well being of the horse and the rider.

01:18:12.914 --> 01:18:13.654
Intrigued?

01:18:13.854 --> 01:18:14.714
Like to know more?

01:18:15.584 --> 01:18:18.414
Go to our website, Helios Harmony.

01:18:20.114 --> 01:18:21.804
Check out the free introduction course.

01:18:22.364 --> 01:18:22.884
Take it from there.

01:18:23.388 --> 01:18:27.043
Brandy Tomhave: So I, I would love
to be a part of that conversation.

01:18:27.433 --> 01:18:31.393
So, I think I could be wrong.

01:18:31.943 --> 01:18:37.413
So anyone out there please note, take this
with a grain of salt, but I think that the

01:18:37.413 --> 01:18:44.173
program in the Nez per Tribe was started
by a Navajo gentleman named Rudy Shialla.

01:18:44.203 --> 01:18:45.433
Have you ever heard his name?

01:18:45.433 --> 01:18:45.463
I

01:18:45.733 --> 01:18:46.213
Rupert Isaacson: have not.

01:18:46.213 --> 01:18:46.748
Please tell me.

01:18:47.173 --> 01:18:52.753
Brandy Tomhave: So Rudy recently passed
away, and, he's a extraordinary person.

01:18:53.063 --> 01:18:57.863
He's the kind of guy who found
a way to wear horses into every

01:18:57.863 --> 01:18:59.423
conversation inside the fi.

01:18:59.483 --> 01:19:02.183
The first five minutes didn't
matter what you're talking,

01:19:02.183 --> 01:19:02.348
Rupert Isaacson: that's like me.

01:19:03.298 --> 01:19:03.588
Brandy Tomhave: Yeah.

01:19:03.728 --> 01:19:04.788
It, it really didn't matter.

01:19:05.543 --> 01:19:09.473
He will, would link
everything back to a horse.

01:19:09.593 --> 01:19:09.653
Okay.

01:19:09.653 --> 01:19:09.743
And,

01:19:10.143 --> 01:19:14.193
So he was born and raised on the
Navajo Nation, a traditional,

01:19:14.583 --> 01:19:16.473
in a traditional Navajo family.

01:19:16.893 --> 01:19:19.653
And he found a way to walk in both worlds.

01:19:19.653 --> 01:19:25.223
And he went off and got his PhD and fell
in love with a Native American woman

01:19:25.223 --> 01:19:28.283
who is not Navajo and I think in Idaho.

01:19:28.583 --> 01:19:30.413
And and raised a family there.

01:19:30.413 --> 01:19:35.083
And for many years ran a horse
program for the NS per tribe.

01:19:35.083 --> 01:19:39.053
And I believe it's the one you're
describing that's a youth program.

01:19:39.053 --> 01:19:39.143
Mm-hmm.

01:19:39.383 --> 01:19:39.503
And

01:19:39.983 --> 01:19:41.963
he, Rudy just recently passed away.

01:19:41.963 --> 01:19:47.253
You might be interested to know that Rudy
in the final years of his life was working

01:19:47.253 --> 01:19:54.283
very hard on establishing a registry
of what he believed to be the original.

01:19:55.153 --> 01:20:00.298
American horse that was a, a Native
American horse that was a smaller horse.

01:20:00.358 --> 01:20:05.348
And that there he was working with
the University of Kentucky doing this

01:20:05.348 --> 01:20:10.688
genetic research and he wanted to
bring back the original native horse.

01:20:11.108 --> 01:20:17.648
I don't know more than that, but it's
a shame that Rudy left us before you

01:20:17.648 --> 01:20:21.368
two getting a chance to meet each
other because I have a feeling that you

01:20:21.368 --> 01:20:23.618
would have been, become dear friends.

01:20:24.128 --> 01:20:28.598
I will say something that I hope,

01:20:31.088 --> 01:20:36.868
I don't mean disrespect to our tribal
partners or my, you know, native

01:20:36.868 --> 01:20:44.458
friends, but I think that there is so
much unmet need in tribal communities

01:20:44.728 --> 01:20:51.568
that the needs of individuals who have
learning differences or neurological

01:20:51.568 --> 01:20:55.268
differences or I hate to use the
term disabilities, but you know Sure.

01:20:55.988 --> 01:20:57.818
Just, you know, different disabilities.

01:20:58.268 --> 01:21:01.958
They, there are not
enough services for them.

01:21:01.958 --> 01:21:04.088
They're not enough a
part of the conversation.

01:21:04.148 --> 01:21:08.448
And so I think that
this is very new mm-hmm.

01:21:08.628 --> 01:21:10.338
In most tribal communities.

01:21:10.698 --> 01:21:15.848
And, I am going to seek
them out though now.

01:21:16.388 --> 01:21:19.408
And I think that

01:21:21.958 --> 01:21:23.068
this is gonna sound terrible.

01:21:23.068 --> 01:21:27.268
Rupert, I, I don't, again, I'm gonna,
I am afraid to say this, but I'm

01:21:27.268 --> 01:21:30.988
gonna go ahead 'cause I feel like
I'm safe and you're really candid.

01:21:30.988 --> 01:21:33.208
And so here I go.

01:21:33.308 --> 01:21:39.428
I think for much the same reason why
the needs of dogs are not at the top

01:21:39.428 --> 01:21:43.888
of a priority list, because they're so
busy trying to deal with the, the needs

01:21:43.918 --> 01:21:49.928
of two legged family members, housing,
clean water, you know, electricity,

01:21:50.078 --> 01:21:53.558
access to broadband, all those
things, they just don't make the list.

01:21:54.818 --> 01:22:02.708
And similarly, they are trying, they're
trying so hard to deal with the needs

01:22:02.708 --> 01:22:05.528
of, of mainstream tribal members.

01:22:06.398 --> 01:22:11.618
They have, they oftentimes just
don't have the bandwidth to deal

01:22:11.618 --> 01:22:18.378
with special needs because basic
needs are still front of mind.

01:22:18.468 --> 01:22:23.888
And because the federal government
has not probably the Indian Health

01:22:23.888 --> 01:22:28.508
Service is the primary agency to provide
healthcare in, in, in tribal communities.

01:22:28.868 --> 01:22:32.608
And I know that this is emergent, right.

01:22:32.878 --> 01:22:35.698
I'm not the first person to say
this or to recognize this, but

01:22:35.698 --> 01:22:37.468
this is still relatively new.

01:22:37.468 --> 01:22:37.528
Yeah.

01:22:38.038 --> 01:22:38.338
New.

01:22:39.088 --> 01:22:40.678
And so, yeah, I don't know.

01:22:40.678 --> 01:22:41.758
I wish I did.

01:22:41.758 --> 01:22:44.368
And I'm gonna seek that
out and I'll let you know.

01:22:44.848 --> 01:22:46.378
Rupert Isaacson: Well, here's
a, here's a question then.

01:22:46.453 --> 01:22:50.518
I mean, I think I'd love to
collaborate with you and, and with

01:22:50.518 --> 01:22:52.808
Jeff and that's your husband and

01:22:53.438 --> 01:22:53.588
Brandy Tomhave: Yeah.

01:22:53.618 --> 01:22:53.828
If you

01:22:53.828 --> 01:22:55.988
Rupert Isaacson: actually, I'd like
to get him on the other show, which

01:22:55.988 --> 01:22:59.438
is live free, ride free to talk
about his career in Indian law.

01:22:59.438 --> 01:23:03.388
Actually maybe both of you together
because that's a different conversation

01:23:03.388 --> 01:23:06.868
and I think we, we touch on a
lot on human rights on that one.

01:23:07.508 --> 01:23:07.598
Okay.

01:23:08.088 --> 01:23:09.138
That's my other podcast.

01:23:09.738 --> 01:23:09.768
Okay.

01:23:10.548 --> 01:23:11.208
But

01:23:13.368 --> 01:23:17.368
I work so much in the USA and
horse Boy originated in the USA.

01:23:18.118 --> 01:23:18.418
Brandy Tomhave: Mm-hmm.

01:23:18.518 --> 01:23:22.808
Rupert Isaacson: And I owe such a debt
of gratitude to Native America for my

01:23:22.808 --> 01:23:28.778
son, for my career, because also my break
into human rights journalism was through

01:23:28.778 --> 01:23:30.938
the Cree Indians up in Northern Quebec.

01:23:30.938 --> 01:23:34.538
We haven't told that story yet, but
they gave me my first big break.

01:23:35.798 --> 01:23:35.828
Brandy Tomhave: Oh

01:23:36.098 --> 01:23:36.368
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

01:23:36.848 --> 01:23:40.678
Quickly I was living in Canada trying
to establish myself as a writer.

01:23:40.768 --> 01:23:43.468
I'd gone to Canada 'cause I was in love
with a Canadian girl who dumped me.

01:23:43.888 --> 01:23:48.618
And then I kind of survived
and broke into journalism and

01:23:48.648 --> 01:23:51.648
got wind of this story that.

01:23:52.503 --> 01:23:57.003
A government hydro company called
Hydro Quebec was going with the

01:23:57.003 --> 01:24:03.483
government there to flood an area the
size of France, the size of France.

01:24:03.483 --> 01:24:05.043
France is quite a big country.

01:24:05.763 --> 01:24:08.253
Quebec is huge, as you know,
it's the size of Western Europe.

01:24:09.033 --> 01:24:10.413
And this was below James Bay.

01:24:10.413 --> 01:24:11.403
This is all Cree land.

01:24:11.433 --> 01:24:17.823
And they had actually done something
quite similar in the seventies and had

01:24:17.823 --> 01:24:21.273
to pay a big reparation to the Cree.

01:24:21.973 --> 01:24:23.413
And the Cree had done
something very clever.

01:24:23.413 --> 01:24:26.503
They'd gone, they'd used a lot
of that money to send a bunch of

01:24:26.503 --> 01:24:30.163
their people to law school 'cause
they knew it would come back again.

01:24:30.163 --> 01:24:31.693
And it did and it came back bigger.

01:24:32.263 --> 01:24:36.553
And what was going to happen, it was
reckoned was that the flow of water

01:24:37.213 --> 01:24:42.293
the displacement was going to cause
the earth crust to shift locally, which

01:24:42.293 --> 01:24:43.913
had released mercury from the bedrock.

01:24:43.913 --> 01:24:48.653
It had already happened, but on
a much greater scale and poison

01:24:48.653 --> 01:24:51.983
everybody, you know, in that catchment
area, which included, you know,

01:24:51.983 --> 01:24:53.273
people down in the United States.

01:24:53.633 --> 01:24:59.833
And the Cree were trying to bring this to
the attention of the New England states

01:24:59.833 --> 01:25:01.813
who were gonna buy the hydro power.

01:25:03.428 --> 01:25:07.663
And, and this was a big story in
Canada and it was all over the

01:25:07.663 --> 01:25:11.173
papers, but it wasn't really being
reported in the us It certainly wasn't

01:25:11.173 --> 01:25:13.033
being reported in the UK or Europe.

01:25:13.303 --> 01:25:15.673
So I rang.

01:25:16.513 --> 01:25:20.953
A large London paper from my
sort of slightly homeless life

01:25:20.953 --> 01:25:25.423
in Montreal and said, if I got
you this story from you kids in

01:25:25.423 --> 01:25:26.083
Brandy Tomhave: Montreal.

01:25:26.293 --> 01:25:26.743
Yeah.

01:25:27.073 --> 01:25:29.013
Rupert Isaacson: And they said,
well, we've got no idea who you

01:25:29.013 --> 01:25:31.713
are, but you know, go get the story
and send it to us and we'll see.

01:25:31.713 --> 01:25:38.883
And I did and I went up there and
I didn't have any credentials.

01:25:40.503 --> 01:25:48.603
And the tribal council who I had
the band council who I had contacted

01:25:49.083 --> 01:25:53.463
when I arrived, they looked at me
and my photographer, who was just

01:25:53.463 --> 01:25:56.673
my friend who took good pictures
and said, where's your winter gear?

01:25:56.703 --> 01:26:00.513
'cause it was March and it was, you know,
it's James Bay, it's like serious winter.

01:26:01.503 --> 01:26:06.093
And we said, well, we're wearing it 'cause
you know, we're Canadian boys, right.

01:26:06.093 --> 01:26:09.393
And, and they just laughed
at us and said, okay.

01:26:09.603 --> 01:26:13.863
They took us and they kidded us out
with caribou, moose, skin Parkers

01:26:13.863 --> 01:26:15.543
and leggings and stuff up to here.

01:26:15.603 --> 01:26:19.593
And they took us out onto the trap
lines and they showed us a way of life

01:26:20.133 --> 01:26:24.783
of people still living under canvas,
people still living in tps, living off

01:26:24.783 --> 01:26:29.253
the forest and saying, you know, I don't
know if your people back in London will

01:26:29.253 --> 01:26:35.193
value this, but this is our life and
our culture and this is what's at stake.

01:26:35.193 --> 01:26:36.813
And they.

01:26:37.818 --> 01:26:42.168
Chartered like a sea plane for us to
go up into these, you know, it was

01:26:42.318 --> 01:26:44.988
thousands and thousands of dollars
that we could, normally you'd need

01:26:44.988 --> 01:26:46.908
a budget for this from a newspaper.

01:26:46.908 --> 01:26:47.568
I didn't have anything.

01:26:47.568 --> 01:26:48.408
They just did it.

01:26:48.768 --> 01:26:54.498
I, anyway, I came back with the story
and I published it and it broke the

01:26:54.498 --> 01:26:57.288
story in Europe and it was my big break.

01:26:57.858 --> 01:27:00.708
And the, the Cree were
actually successful.

01:27:01.338 --> 01:27:04.098
They, they, they fought off
Hydro Quebec and they taught

01:27:04.098 --> 01:27:05.238
me a really valuable lesson.

01:27:05.238 --> 01:27:09.558
They not only gave me generously,
my first big break, but they

01:27:10.668 --> 01:27:11.958
at their own expense really.

01:27:12.348 --> 01:27:20.748
But they showed me that those human
rights endeavors against the odds often

01:27:20.808 --> 01:27:27.953
actually work if a small group of people
get together and sort of decide to.

01:27:28.463 --> 01:27:32.723
And then that played out into my later
life with similar types of work in

01:27:32.723 --> 01:27:34.373
Africa and the Kalahari and so on.

01:27:34.973 --> 01:27:39.983
And then later, of course, with autism
advocacy, you could argue that I got my

01:27:40.793 --> 01:27:42.593
apprenticeship in all that from the Cree.

01:27:43.793 --> 01:27:44.033
Wow.

01:27:44.393 --> 01:27:45.233
Who owed me nothing.

01:27:49.043 --> 01:27:56.423
So I feel like I have a debt to settle
with Native America for my career and for

01:27:56.423 --> 01:27:59.513
the health of my son and for the birth of.

01:28:00.608 --> 01:28:04.538
Horse boy, which happened in Coman, which
is Central Texas, which by the way has

01:28:04.538 --> 01:28:11.138
no comanches in it because the genocide
was pretty darn, you know, thorough.

01:28:11.138 --> 01:28:11.438
Complete.

01:28:11.828 --> 01:28:12.218
Yep.

01:28:12.278 --> 01:28:12.428
Yeah.

01:28:12.668 --> 01:28:13.088
Yep.

01:28:13.508 --> 01:28:20.738
And I would like to give my services, so I
don't want to do it in a way of, white boy

01:28:20.738 --> 01:28:23.108
comes in and, you know, blah, blah, blah.

01:28:24.458 --> 01:28:28.118
I just want to collaborate
our technologies and say,

01:28:28.148 --> 01:28:29.378
well, what can we do?

01:28:30.188 --> 01:28:32.888
There is a need, as you
say, within special needs.

01:28:32.888 --> 01:28:37.658
There is a need within animal
welfare, but there's also a lot that

01:28:37.658 --> 01:28:39.068
we can learn about animal welfare.

01:28:39.068 --> 01:28:39.158
Mm-hmm.

01:28:40.058 --> 01:28:41.438
Outside of Native America.

01:28:41.438 --> 01:28:42.008
It's both.

01:28:42.008 --> 01:28:44.018
It's, it's, it's not a one-way thing.

01:28:44.858 --> 01:28:45.578
Are you up for it?

01:28:45.668 --> 01:28:46.838
Shall we give it a go?

01:28:48.098 --> 01:28:49.658
Brandy Tomhave: Oh my God, absolutely.

01:28:49.988 --> 01:28:50.348
Geez.

01:28:50.348 --> 01:28:56.178
And that five seconds, I was wondering
how he's gonna convince you to to

01:28:56.178 --> 01:28:58.368
work with me in, in my capacity at

01:28:58.938 --> 01:28:59.838
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, I was
hoping I was gonna convince you.

01:28:59.838 --> 01:29:00.228
Well, great.

01:29:00.228 --> 01:29:00.798
Well, I'm, yeah.

01:29:00.798 --> 01:29:01.188
Right.

01:29:02.568 --> 01:29:04.188
Brandy Tomhave: No, absolutely.

01:29:04.188 --> 01:29:05.208
Absolutely.

01:29:05.668 --> 01:29:09.928
There's something I wanna share with
you that is kind of a callback to

01:29:09.928 --> 01:29:14.998
the earlier part of our conversation,
and this is something that I.

01:29:15.593 --> 01:29:19.553
Am am still on a journey of
learning from my Navajo sister

01:29:20.603 --> 01:29:22.723
and she's an extraordinary person.

01:29:23.503 --> 01:29:25.853
She has advanced degrees.

01:29:25.853 --> 01:29:29.843
She works within a healthcare
system at a very high level.

01:29:30.393 --> 01:29:39.593
She's asked to speak in New York City
and Washington, DC and and she's speaking

01:29:39.593 --> 01:29:46.003
with pharmaceutical companies and medical
technology companies and thought leaders

01:29:46.033 --> 01:29:49.183
in public health in the United States.

01:29:50.383 --> 01:30:02.113
And she lives, traditionally, she lives
in a place near the Grand Canyon on the

01:30:02.113 --> 01:30:10.153
Navajo Nation, where she and her family
only recently got indoor running water

01:30:11.113 --> 01:30:16.813
and electricity, and they really struggled
over that because it's a trade-off.

01:30:17.863 --> 01:30:24.653
Because so she is a national expert
and spokesperson on a specific topic

01:30:24.653 --> 01:30:28.253
in public health, Western medicine.

01:30:29.138 --> 01:30:36.878
And she is a traditional Navajo woman who
is a practitioner also of Navajo medicine.

01:30:37.748 --> 01:30:44.708
And she works in a hospital and
you know, lived tradit, went home

01:30:44.798 --> 01:30:49.988
to a additional home site that she
shares with her husband and sons.

01:30:50.018 --> 01:30:52.998
And and she is not atypical.

01:30:53.148 --> 01:30:54.798
That's pretty common there.

01:30:54.828 --> 01:30:54.918
Mm-hmm.

01:30:55.398 --> 01:31:02.548
This ability to work, walk in both worlds
and to maintain a balance between them.

01:31:02.998 --> 01:31:07.378
And I'm sure you know this, but
the, the Navajo word for what we

01:31:07.378 --> 01:31:11.208
would trans say is balance is and

01:31:15.288 --> 01:31:16.968
is the

01:31:18.978 --> 01:31:23.718
ethical north star of the, of
the dine of the Navajo people.

01:31:24.978 --> 01:31:25.848
And

01:31:28.248 --> 01:31:31.338
it's a really profound concept.

01:31:32.688 --> 01:31:37.458
And you know, it's interesting
you were talking about, you know,

01:31:37.548 --> 01:31:41.268
balance on a horse and our balance
with, with animals, you know, the

01:31:41.268 --> 01:31:46.248
idea of not only relationality, but,
but balance between ourselves and

01:31:46.248 --> 01:31:48.798
within ourselves is really central.

01:31:49.773 --> 01:31:50.883
To everything.

01:31:51.363 --> 01:31:57.913
And when I first went to work for
the Navajo Nation and I, I worked in

01:31:57.913 --> 01:32:01.603
their Washington office and my job, I
was an employee of the Navajo Nation.

01:32:01.903 --> 01:32:05.543
This was before I my husband and I
struck out on our own and created

01:32:05.543 --> 01:32:08.963
this tribal advocacy consultancy,
which we've had for almost 30 years.

01:32:09.323 --> 01:32:14.513
But I learned from all my Navajo teachers
and I learned all the stats about

01:32:14.513 --> 01:32:19.843
the Navajo Nation you know, the lack
of paved roads and running water and

01:32:19.903 --> 01:32:23.803
electricity in homes and all of that.

01:32:24.553 --> 01:32:29.623
And collectively when presented
all at once, it has the

01:32:29.623 --> 01:32:31.423
same effect as poverty porn.

01:32:32.503 --> 01:32:38.023
And this person who I've been
describing to you who I consider we

01:32:38.023 --> 01:32:43.933
claim each other as sisters one day
she said, you know, Brandy, for, for

01:32:43.933 --> 01:32:46.003
many of us, that's a lifestyle choice.

01:32:47.893 --> 01:32:54.823
And I just stopped dead in my tracks
and she said, we are choosing to

01:32:54.823 --> 01:32:58.243
maintain our traditional way of life.

01:32:58.423 --> 01:32:59.473
And I teased her.

01:32:59.473 --> 01:33:00.823
I was like, oh my God, you're off grid.

01:33:00.823 --> 01:33:02.113
You're just Navajo's off grid.

01:33:02.113 --> 01:33:04.183
And like, so yeah, they've
always been off grid, right?

01:33:04.513 --> 01:33:08.183
It's not some, you know, new
green initiative that they're

01:33:08.183 --> 01:33:09.833
getting tax rebates for.

01:33:10.193 --> 01:33:15.413
That's something that I
try to remember always that

01:33:17.543 --> 01:33:24.053
what we think we see when we visit a
community that is so different from our

01:33:24.053 --> 01:33:30.283
own, and that is really ancient, what
we think we see may not actually be what

01:33:30.283 --> 01:33:39.193
we see because we don't have access to
the information and, and knowledge that

01:33:39.223 --> 01:33:43.333
would, that's necessary to decipher it.

01:33:43.843 --> 01:33:43.903
Yeah.

01:33:43.933 --> 01:33:48.313
And that's only gonna be provided to you
when you've earned the trust of folks

01:33:48.433 --> 01:33:51.763
with that, when you've only earned their
trust to, to be given that information.

01:33:51.793 --> 01:33:52.093
Right?

01:33:52.813 --> 01:33:52.903
Mm-hmm.

01:33:52.909 --> 01:33:58.453
And so, I guess how that relates
to our conversation about animals,

01:33:58.458 --> 01:34:02.233
it's so obvious, but bears repeating

01:34:04.993 --> 01:34:10.273
when you visit a reservation and
unless you're from there, you're a

01:34:10.273 --> 01:34:15.553
visitor and should behave accordingly
that there's a really good chance

01:34:15.553 --> 01:34:16.693
you don't know what you're seeing.

01:34:17.173 --> 01:34:17.413
Mm-hmm.

01:34:17.563 --> 01:34:26.473
And you have to humble yourself to that
reality and understand that what is

01:34:26.473 --> 01:34:29.173
our objective, which might be safety.

01:34:29.488 --> 01:34:29.878
Right.

01:34:30.148 --> 01:34:34.858
Like everyone has to be safe, and so
all the dogs have to be inside and all

01:34:34.858 --> 01:34:39.808
the children accounted for that might
not be their highest cultural value.

01:34:40.228 --> 01:34:42.028
Maybe theirs is Jose.

01:34:42.328 --> 01:34:48.058
Maybe it's balance and balance
and safety are not the same thing.

01:34:48.688 --> 01:34:52.718
And, and you know, I I just
wanted to share that with you

01:34:52.718 --> 01:34:56.318
because our conversation has
sort of reminded me of that.

01:34:56.323 --> 01:34:56.333
Yeah.

01:34:56.333 --> 01:35:01.538
And I just wanted to thread that through
it because it has been so impactful

01:35:02.798 --> 01:35:06.308
to me because as a lawyer mm-hmm.

01:35:06.308 --> 01:35:12.208
As a, you know, social justice warrior
I really thought that I was helping.

01:35:13.378 --> 01:35:13.858
Right.

01:35:14.338 --> 01:35:18.748
And I think you will see when you, if you,
you know, ever take a look at the Native

01:35:18.748 --> 01:35:21.238
American Humane Society website mm-hmm.

01:35:21.243 --> 01:35:23.518
That you are not gonna find poverty porn.

01:35:24.208 --> 01:35:26.068
You're not going to find it.

01:35:26.068 --> 01:35:26.458
What's poverty

01:35:26.458 --> 01:35:26.818
Rupert Isaacson: porn?

01:35:26.818 --> 01:35:29.248
That's a great term, but I've
not heard it until just now.

01:35:30.508 --> 01:35:33.658
Brandy Tomhave: Wait, it might be, it
might be one that until this moment

01:35:33.658 --> 01:35:40.248
we only was only ever uttered in my
house, you know, images of a people.

01:35:40.908 --> 01:35:48.038
That are bleak and only look at them
through a lens that it's, it's a window.

01:35:48.038 --> 01:35:48.098
Yeah.

01:35:48.128 --> 01:35:52.908
And you're just looking
at the desperate straights

01:35:52.998 --> 01:35:54.738
Rupert Isaacson: to make yourself
feel better about yourself.

01:35:54.798 --> 01:35:55.128
Yeah.

01:35:55.218 --> 01:35:55.758
Brandy Tomhave: Well, yeah.

01:35:55.758 --> 01:36:01.308
You're, you're, you're basically imposing
upon a people a narrative that basically

01:36:01.308 --> 01:36:02.988
says, look at these poor people.

01:36:02.988 --> 01:36:04.278
They have nothing.

01:36:04.338 --> 01:36:06.018
They need everything.

01:36:06.258 --> 01:36:07.758
We must help them.

01:36:08.808 --> 01:36:13.478
And it's, there's a lot of like
child international hunger campaigns

01:36:13.538 --> 01:36:16.508
that, you know, feature poverty porn.

01:36:16.508 --> 01:36:18.668
It's terribly effective as all porn is.

01:36:18.698 --> 01:36:23.528
Like what's, there's arguably no more
effective communication than pornography.

01:36:24.008 --> 01:36:24.998
But what does that really, that

01:36:24.998 --> 01:36:27.368
Rupert Isaacson: used to be
the case until social media.

01:36:27.833 --> 01:36:28.123
Brandy Tomhave: Okay.

01:36:28.128 --> 01:36:28.868
Okay.

01:36:28.868 --> 01:36:29.228
Right.

01:36:29.348 --> 01:36:31.028
You could tell it used to sex

01:36:31.028 --> 01:36:32.138
Rupert Isaacson: cell was the Yeah.

01:36:32.618 --> 01:36:34.868
Now we've realized no anger and fear.

01:36:34.868 --> 01:36:36.548
Cell being Rage.

01:36:36.553 --> 01:36:37.563
Rage, rage cells.

01:36:37.563 --> 01:36:37.803
Yeah.

01:36:37.803 --> 01:36:38.083
Rage.

01:36:38.138 --> 01:36:43.808
Brandy Tomhave: So I mean, as well-meaning
as that is, it can also be dehumanizing.

01:36:44.318 --> 01:36:44.408
Sure.

01:36:44.528 --> 01:36:49.778
'cause if you're the subject of
that narrative you likely don't

01:36:49.778 --> 01:36:51.578
want that to be the only thing.

01:36:51.968 --> 01:36:56.918
That is said about you and, and,
and it feels very exploitative.

01:36:56.918 --> 01:36:56.978
Yeah.

01:36:57.638 --> 01:36:58.088
And,

01:36:58.298 --> 01:37:01.978
And so, and I will just share
this getting back to animals.

01:37:02.308 --> 01:37:07.578
That is the, the system of funding animal
welfare really rewards that, right?

01:37:07.608 --> 01:37:11.988
So that if you go into a community
and you do a mobile spay neuter you

01:37:11.988 --> 01:37:16.218
know, clinic, let's say, gosh darn
it, you're gonna get on social media

01:37:16.218 --> 01:37:18.798
and you're gonna show the most vivid,

01:37:19.153 --> 01:37:20.023
Rupert Isaacson: gonna show the need.

01:37:20.023 --> 01:37:20.263
Yeah.

01:37:20.423 --> 01:37:20.943
Absolutely need.

01:37:20.943 --> 01:37:21.063
You

01:37:21.063 --> 01:37:23.568
Brandy Tomhave: gotta show the need and
you're gonna be rewarded for the need.

01:37:23.568 --> 01:37:27.948
And it's a head count and
it's a heart heartstring pull.

01:37:28.308 --> 01:37:33.843
And and, you know, native people are sick
and tired of being the subject of that.

01:37:34.533 --> 01:37:34.923
Hmm.

01:37:35.613 --> 01:37:39.623
Because what it's really doing is
it's objectifying and commoditizing

01:37:40.523 --> 01:37:46.263
a situation and that you may or may
not understand that you may or may

01:37:46.263 --> 01:37:51.043
not have been given permission to even

01:37:51.613 --> 01:37:51.973
you

01:37:51.973 --> 01:37:54.133
know, claim in any way.

01:37:55.483 --> 01:37:57.083
And yeah, and it's disrespectful.

01:37:57.383 --> 01:38:00.983
And I think getting back to being
a good relative, it's kind of

01:38:00.983 --> 01:38:05.268
like taking pictures of of uh mm.

01:38:06.063 --> 01:38:06.393
Rupert Isaacson: Sure.

01:38:06.693 --> 01:38:11.103
Imagine if someone came into my messy room
and took pictures of my messy room and

01:38:11.103 --> 01:38:17.793
put them on a website about how we need to
relieve people from living in messy rooms.

01:38:18.423 --> 01:38:18.783
Brandy Tomhave: Oh, you're a hoarder.

01:38:19.203 --> 01:38:19.563
Rupert Isaacson: Say, yeah.

01:38:19.563 --> 01:38:21.663
Hey, I didn't give you
permission to use that picture.

01:38:21.663 --> 01:38:22.233
And they're like, you know what?

01:38:22.863 --> 01:38:23.793
Room's such a mess.

01:38:23.793 --> 01:38:24.423
Ru Yeah.

01:38:24.453 --> 01:38:24.903
Yeah.

01:38:25.293 --> 01:38:25.743
You need, it's like,

01:38:25.953 --> 01:38:28.268
Brandy Tomhave: I, I, I go to the YM YMCA.

01:38:28.298 --> 01:38:28.568
Right.

01:38:28.568 --> 01:38:30.518
And you're not allowed to take
pictures in the locker room.

01:38:30.518 --> 01:38:30.578
Yeah.

01:38:30.788 --> 01:38:33.338
Because it's, you're so vulnerable, right?

01:38:33.338 --> 01:38:33.398
Yeah.

01:38:33.398 --> 01:38:36.188
You don't want taking a picture of you're
like, oh my God, look at this woman.

01:38:36.548 --> 01:38:36.668
Yeah.

01:38:36.673 --> 01:38:37.088
And you know what?

01:38:37.088 --> 01:38:40.568
I have these comm the picture
it is of like, oh my God,

01:38:40.568 --> 01:38:42.248
look at this pork community.

01:38:42.588 --> 01:38:45.168
It's, it's just, we, we
can do better than that.

01:38:45.168 --> 01:38:49.008
We can be better, better
relatives to each other.

01:38:49.008 --> 01:38:49.218
Well, it's

01:38:49.218 --> 01:38:50.568
Rupert Isaacson: what's really
interesting about the point that you

01:38:50.568 --> 01:38:54.438
make there is that's of course how
often people perceive special needs.

01:38:54.438 --> 01:38:54.528
Yep.

01:38:55.428 --> 01:38:57.348
And it, it comes from a good place.

01:38:57.348 --> 01:39:02.688
I mean, and if you were, if you're running
the Native American Human Society, you

01:39:02.688 --> 01:39:08.958
do need to let people know why there
is a need and why they should donate.

01:39:09.978 --> 01:39:14.178
And at the same time, you want to be
respectful and, and, and it's all about

01:39:14.183 --> 01:39:17.658
that, that treading, that ambiguous line.

01:39:17.658 --> 01:39:22.128
Again, I think the only way that
one can really do that well is

01:39:22.128 --> 01:39:25.578
by giving the people who one
is trying to serve the voice.

01:39:26.118 --> 01:39:29.208
So you know where I'm lucky, say with the.

01:39:29.643 --> 01:39:30.753
My relationship with Rowan.

01:39:30.753 --> 01:39:31.743
You met Rowan.

01:39:31.923 --> 01:39:33.453
You saw Rowan speaking.

01:39:33.903 --> 01:39:34.353
Brandy Tomhave: Yeah.

01:39:34.473 --> 01:39:37.953
Rupert Isaacson: So, you know, and
he's sort of telling his story and

01:39:39.003 --> 01:39:43.893
explaining how autism feels from
the inside and what his relationship

01:39:43.893 --> 01:39:46.563
with animals has been and so on.

01:39:46.563 --> 01:39:52.053
And so he's an advocate for why animal
assisted therapies should be supported.

01:39:52.713 --> 01:39:59.433
He's exactly the person who should be
saying it because he is the recipient

01:40:00.003 --> 01:40:04.893
and he's now actually part of a PhD
program that's happening at Manchester

01:40:04.893 --> 01:40:10.053
Metropolitan University in the uk
looking at how to better equine assisted

01:40:10.053 --> 01:40:15.213
practices for autistic people by finally
consulting with autistic people and

01:40:15.213 --> 01:40:21.483
to who have, who have un you know, had
equine services and saying to them what

01:40:21.483 --> 01:40:26.553
worked well and what should change, you
know, entirely rational thing to do.

01:40:27.213 --> 01:40:31.863
That study happens to be run by somebody
who is, runs a horse boy program,

01:40:31.863 --> 01:40:35.523
you know, and, but, you know, yeah.

01:40:35.523 --> 01:40:40.383
Within the, within the, an equine
assisted world, I've also seen very

01:40:40.383 --> 01:40:44.853
much the opposite way, which is we are
the therapist and we are God and we.

01:40:46.158 --> 01:40:50.118
Provide the service and look at these
poor people who need the service.

01:40:50.358 --> 01:40:52.968
And you can absolutely see
why that mindset comes about.

01:40:52.968 --> 01:40:56.658
And I can't condemn it because
it's understandable, but it's too

01:40:56.658 --> 01:41:02.988
simplistic and it doesn't bring
about the real change, which is

01:41:03.078 --> 01:41:12.498
self-advocacy, self agency to say,
well, are we, are we services that

01:41:15.738 --> 01:41:20.028
train people as they would in
any walk of life to go into

01:41:20.028 --> 01:41:22.278
their professional lives later?

01:41:22.638 --> 01:41:28.368
Or are we just leading kids around
for a pony ride saying, oh, how sweet.

01:41:29.588 --> 01:41:31.028
There's an evolution there.

01:41:31.148 --> 01:41:33.248
It might have started that way,
but it shouldn't stay there.

01:41:33.248 --> 01:41:37.418
And I think what you are doing, you
know, is say, well, there is poverty.

01:41:38.108 --> 01:41:40.538
But there's also a different
way of relating to animals.

01:41:40.808 --> 01:41:43.808
Perhaps some of those animals are
actually happier and better treated

01:41:44.348 --> 01:41:48.878
than animals that might be outside
the reservation, even if it might

01:41:48.878 --> 01:41:51.008
not appear that way at first.

01:41:51.698 --> 01:41:53.918
And similarly within
the human communities.

01:41:53.948 --> 01:41:56.888
And at the same time, some of
the animals are abused and some

01:41:56.888 --> 01:41:57.968
of them really do need help.

01:41:58.238 --> 01:42:04.628
And some of the humans are abused and,
and one does not negate the other one

01:42:04.628 --> 01:42:05.948
needs to hit it bang in the middle.

01:42:06.463 --> 01:42:16.183
That's, but as you say that discernment is
hard to come by if you haven't, you know,

01:42:16.183 --> 01:42:17.803
spent your life doing that kind of thing.

01:42:17.833 --> 01:42:21.133
You know, as you say, what you
see may not be what is Yeah.

01:42:21.133 --> 01:42:21.193
Yeah.

01:42:21.763 --> 01:42:26.533
Brandy Tomhave: I, I'll tell you
what, I think that humility and

01:42:26.533 --> 01:42:30.253
advocacy are hard to hold at the sink.

01:42:30.853 --> 01:42:31.363
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:42:31.363 --> 01:42:31.423
Yeah.

01:42:31.573 --> 01:42:32.143
Brandy Tomhave: And

01:42:32.383 --> 01:42:32.773
Rupert Isaacson: so true.

01:42:32.948 --> 01:42:33.168
Brandy Tomhave: And

01:42:33.763 --> 01:42:33.913
Rupert Isaacson: true.

01:42:33.913 --> 01:42:33.938
So true.

01:42:34.598 --> 01:42:35.058
Brandy Tomhave: You know, I

01:42:35.278 --> 01:42:36.788
Rupert Isaacson: so true, so true.

01:42:37.513 --> 01:42:38.933
Brandy Tomhave: Guilty you know, guilty

01:42:38.933 --> 01:42:39.413
Rupert Isaacson: myself.

01:42:39.413 --> 01:42:39.728
I have, yeah.

01:42:39.788 --> 01:42:41.183
Guilty I have.

01:42:41.753 --> 01:42:42.863
Yeah, absolutely.

01:42:43.493 --> 01:42:44.363
Brandy Tomhave: And because it gives you

01:42:44.363 --> 01:42:44.753
Rupert Isaacson: power.

01:42:44.753 --> 01:42:46.253
Being an advocate does give you power.

01:42:46.568 --> 01:42:46.858
Yeah.

01:42:46.863 --> 01:42:47.003
Yeah.

01:42:47.423 --> 01:42:48.713
That can be intoxicating.

01:42:48.773 --> 01:42:49.073
Yeah.

01:42:49.128 --> 01:42:49.418
Yeah,

01:42:49.528 --> 01:42:49.818
Brandy Tomhave: yeah.

01:42:50.033 --> 01:42:50.333
Yeah.

01:42:50.333 --> 01:42:51.833
It's very seductive.

01:42:51.953 --> 01:42:52.043
Mm-hmm.

01:42:52.043 --> 01:42:55.973
And it's very, you know, there's
a, a, it's easy to lie to yourself.

01:42:56.063 --> 01:42:56.213
Rupert Isaacson: Oh.

01:42:56.213 --> 01:42:59.723
And righteous anger is the worst
kind, because that's when people

01:42:59.723 --> 01:43:02.813
really do the bad stuff is
when they are justified in it.

01:43:03.413 --> 01:43:03.863
Brandy Tomhave: Right.

01:43:03.863 --> 01:43:04.193
Right.

01:43:04.193 --> 01:43:04.313
That's

01:43:04.313 --> 01:43:05.663
Rupert Isaacson: when you've
gotta watch out for your soul.

01:43:05.668 --> 01:43:05.898
Yeah.

01:43:06.008 --> 01:43:06.308
Yeah, yeah.

01:43:07.008 --> 01:43:07.298
Yeah.

01:43:07.493 --> 01:43:13.128
Brandy Tomhave: I wanted to just I wanna
say I'm just so thrilled for Rowan and,

01:43:13.308 --> 01:43:19.733
and, and for, you and, and his family and
his friends, and everyone who, who love

01:43:19.733 --> 01:43:21.473
him and have been part of his journey.

01:43:21.473 --> 01:43:25.553
It's, I only got to meet him
for a few moments and he's

01:43:25.613 --> 01:43:28.078
just such a badass, isn't he?

01:43:28.278 --> 01:43:31.613
And yeah, he just is, he's just great.

01:43:31.673 --> 01:43:32.303
Yeah, he is.

01:43:32.453 --> 01:43:39.373
And you know, you you know, inviting me
to to work with you and, and, and maybe

01:43:39.373 --> 01:43:44.113
collaborating with Native American Humane
Society is so exciting because what

01:43:44.113 --> 01:43:47.653
I wanna share with you, and I, I just
want the chance to say this out loud.

01:43:48.253 --> 01:43:53.653
It's often said that there is a res dog
problem on Indian reservations, but I

01:43:53.683 --> 01:43:59.293
think it's entirely possible that the
dogs are less a problem than the solution.

01:43:59.293 --> 01:44:04.903
They may be a problem right now in
terms of daily nuisances regarding

01:44:04.903 --> 01:44:11.443
the small stuff in life, like, I don't
know, noise and, and mess, right?

01:44:12.073 --> 01:44:18.043
But when it comes to the more complex
stuff, they might be the solution.

01:44:18.193 --> 01:44:22.873
One of the real challenges on
every reservation, which again is

01:44:22.873 --> 01:44:27.993
directly part of the continuum of
genocide, colonization, trauma,

01:44:29.223 --> 01:44:31.073
is mental health and suicide.

01:44:31.403 --> 01:44:31.763
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:44:32.198 --> 01:44:37.298
Brandy Tomhave: And when you think
about horses and dogs, you know,

01:44:37.298 --> 01:44:41.018
and honestly I have friends who
would kick me if I didn't say that.

01:44:41.018 --> 01:44:43.718
Native people just think of
horses as big dogs, right?

01:44:43.718 --> 01:44:45.158
They're, they're companion animals.

01:44:45.338 --> 01:44:49.118
So I have a, the president of
our board whom you met, Dr.

01:44:49.118 --> 01:44:53.778
Michael Yellowbird who like my husband is
a member of the Mandan Hi Andra Nation.

01:44:53.778 --> 01:44:57.728
He is like, we have to start bringing
horses back into our mission.

01:44:57.728 --> 01:44:58.688
And I said, but Dr.

01:44:58.688 --> 01:45:00.878
Yellowbird, we're just
focusing on companion animals.

01:45:00.878 --> 01:45:03.518
He's like brandy, they
are companion animals.

01:45:03.908 --> 01:45:06.288
And and of course he's right, right?

01:45:06.918 --> 01:45:06.978
Yeah.

01:45:07.028 --> 01:45:10.058
But because we're not trading in
poverty porn, I don't have the

01:45:10.058 --> 01:45:13.868
budget yet, but we'll get there
and I'm sure with your help, we'll,

01:45:13.898 --> 01:45:15.518
that will happen sooner than later.

01:45:15.758 --> 01:45:17.168
But here's the thing.

01:45:17.678 --> 01:45:19.868
In a community where

01:45:23.168 --> 01:45:27.458
pe children are killing themselves,

01:45:31.178 --> 01:45:38.288
what's easier, more readily
available source of comfort.

01:45:39.113 --> 01:45:43.793
Could there be than a companion
animal, whether it's a horse or a cat

01:45:44.453 --> 01:45:44.813
or a

01:45:44.903 --> 01:45:45.263
dog.

01:45:46.043 --> 01:45:49.103
And they've not been, no
one has like built programs

01:45:49.103 --> 01:45:50.933
around that in Indian country.

01:45:50.993 --> 01:45:55.933
And I would really love it if we
could start helping folks think about

01:45:55.933 --> 01:46:02.323
that and think about what that could
mean for them in a way that resonates

01:46:02.323 --> 01:46:07.303
culturally and, you know, you know,
kind of like vibrates for them.

01:46:08.713 --> 01:46:09.043
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:46:09.133 --> 01:46:12.643
I feel we need to get Jessica
White plume into this conversation.

01:46:13.183 --> 01:46:13.573
Yeah.

01:46:13.573 --> 01:46:17.473
And yeah, because I think this is
exactly where she's been working.

01:46:18.463 --> 01:46:21.253
And get some, get some mentorship.

01:46:21.253 --> 01:46:22.213
Get some direction.

01:46:23.443 --> 01:46:23.803
Yeah.

01:46:23.803 --> 01:46:23.863
Yeah.

01:46:24.263 --> 01:46:24.588
Yeah, because

01:46:24.888 --> 01:46:28.098
Brandy Tomhave: like they say,
like, we are our own medicine.

01:46:28.368 --> 01:46:28.638
Yeah.

01:46:28.668 --> 01:46:32.148
But we can't access it, you know?

01:46:32.148 --> 01:46:33.138
Isn't that a shame?

01:46:35.418 --> 01:46:35.748
Yeah.

01:46:35.748 --> 01:46:39.918
And so I, I, I'm I'm the crazy woman
who's saying, no, dogs aren't the problem.

01:46:39.918 --> 01:46:41.538
They, they're, they're the answer.

01:46:41.808 --> 01:46:42.138
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:46:42.138 --> 01:46:42.823
No, I think you're right.

01:46:43.063 --> 01:46:50.418
I mean, back to, back to, you know,
us in Missoula eight, 10 weeks ago

01:46:52.428 --> 01:46:56.418
with the presentation going
on about homeless and dogs.

01:46:58.128 --> 01:46:59.133
And thinking, yeah.

01:46:59.133 --> 01:47:01.868
You know, those dogs are
keeping those people alive.

01:47:02.698 --> 01:47:03.118
Did you

01:47:03.138 --> 01:47:06.583
Brandy Tomhave: see the dog that
was in the sleeping in the guitar

01:47:06.583 --> 01:47:09.433
case across the street from event?

01:47:09.793 --> 01:47:09.913
Yeah.

01:47:09.913 --> 01:47:14.833
There was a homeless gentleman who
was busting on the street corner and

01:47:14.833 --> 01:47:21.163
and there was his dog very happily
sleeping in the, in the guitar case.

01:47:21.853 --> 01:47:23.593
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, absolutely.

01:47:23.593 --> 01:47:25.153
Absolutely, absolutely.

01:47:25.153 --> 01:47:28.903
Okay, I'm intrigued and I'm gonna
throw this out here as a challenge.

01:47:29.023 --> 01:47:35.503
Readers not readers, viewers, and
listeners, if you are in the equine

01:47:35.503 --> 01:47:39.553
assisted world in, or the animal
assisted world in North America,

01:47:41.803 --> 01:47:43.663
do you want to get
involved in this as well?

01:47:45.043 --> 01:47:45.703
Come on.

01:47:46.303 --> 01:47:47.353
This is gonna be so cool.

01:47:48.223 --> 01:47:49.153
Why would we not?

01:47:49.663 --> 01:47:50.683
It's adventure.

01:47:51.253 --> 01:47:51.913
And

01:47:55.093 --> 01:48:02.083
what better way to pay our debts,
heal our wounds, explore the west?

01:48:03.253 --> 01:48:06.883
Well, the whole thing actually, not
just the west, you know, but not to

01:48:06.883 --> 01:48:17.573
go in with a sense of white Indian,
Indian, white how about people and

01:48:17.633 --> 01:48:21.293
animals, but people who are of the place.

01:48:22.613 --> 01:48:23.303
Brandy Tomhave: Mm-hmm.

01:48:23.309 --> 01:48:26.813
Rupert Isaacson: Who can orient us?

01:48:27.053 --> 01:48:28.853
So many of us are so lost.

01:48:30.083 --> 01:48:32.123
Doesn't mean that they have all
the answers, but they've been on

01:48:32.123 --> 01:48:38.423
that land a long time and they
will certainly have some answers.

01:48:39.713 --> 01:48:45.773
And we, if we can humbly give what
we can give and collaborate and let

01:48:45.773 --> 01:48:47.543
the animals kind of be the medicine

01:48:49.703 --> 01:48:52.493
to heal that stupid monkey
shit that we get up to.

01:48:53.243 --> 01:48:55.133
'Cause yeah, you know, you're a dog.

01:48:55.163 --> 01:48:55.703
You're, you are.

01:48:55.853 --> 01:49:01.763
Luke back there isn't relating
to me as white or you as native.

01:49:02.633 --> 01:49:07.283
He's just looking at the two monkeys
yabbering for two hours, you know?

01:49:07.793 --> 01:49:07.973
Yeah.

01:49:08.023 --> 01:49:09.853
And he loves us each unconditionally.

01:49:10.513 --> 01:49:16.783
It's just the Yaba monkeys, you know,
who happen to be his companion as well.

01:49:17.263 --> 01:49:17.743
Brandy Tomhave: That's right.

01:49:18.103 --> 01:49:19.633
Rupert Isaacson: So maybe we yaba monkeys.

01:49:19.633 --> 01:49:20.113
Can

01:49:22.753 --> 01:49:25.633
you know it Tribe is such
an interesting thing.

01:49:25.693 --> 01:49:29.153
I'm a great believer in it, you
know, my family's very tribal white

01:49:29.243 --> 01:49:31.523
Africans are very tribal as well.

01:49:31.853 --> 01:49:35.483
They've learned, you know,
but so are, so are Europeans.

01:49:35.903 --> 01:49:37.583
You know, the Scots hate the English.

01:49:37.583 --> 01:49:40.373
The English, you know, the Welsh
hate, the English, the Irish hate the

01:49:40.373 --> 01:49:41.723
English 'cause of our tribal histories.

01:49:41.903 --> 01:49:45.383
Then you go, you know, village to village
within England, and the people from

01:49:45.383 --> 01:49:48.023
that side of the county have always
fought with the people from that side

01:49:48.023 --> 01:49:50.003
of the county for the last 10,000 years.

01:49:50.003 --> 01:49:55.403
And, you know, then it all culminated
in our World War ii, which is our

01:49:55.583 --> 01:50:00.563
glorious expression of tribal warfare
that made us realize that maybe we

01:50:00.563 --> 01:50:03.863
can't quite go on like that anymore.

01:50:04.553 --> 01:50:06.503
But tribe is also community.

01:50:06.628 --> 01:50:09.923
There, there, there, there are the,
there's the, there dysfunctional tribes.

01:50:10.763 --> 01:50:12.593
Tribes that eat, eat themselves.

01:50:13.613 --> 01:50:16.433
And then there's the tribes that
actually look after each other.

01:50:17.303 --> 01:50:19.973
And when I'm doing horse boy
method trains, I'm always talking

01:50:19.973 --> 01:50:21.683
about how you cultivate tribe.

01:50:22.733 --> 01:50:26.663
Because that is the fundamental
human way to live on planet earth.

01:50:26.693 --> 01:50:29.963
No matter what continent
you're talking about.

01:50:33.803 --> 01:50:35.693
That's what's needed.

01:50:35.783 --> 01:50:42.083
And if it's the animals that bring
us back to that, well, let's do it

01:50:42.083 --> 01:50:47.393
and go into service because that's
where our quality of life is.

01:50:48.293 --> 01:50:49.703
What are animals but nature?

01:50:49.733 --> 01:50:50.963
What is nature but the planet?

01:50:50.993 --> 01:50:51.713
What is the planet?

01:50:51.713 --> 01:50:56.003
But what we rely upon if we can
treat a dog well, if we can treat

01:50:56.003 --> 01:50:58.883
a horse well, we've got a better
chance of treating each other well.

01:50:59.063 --> 01:50:59.963
Got a better chance of.

01:51:00.803 --> 01:51:05.243
Making sure there's food in the fridge
and not, you know, actually having a

01:51:05.243 --> 01:51:07.853
planet in another couple of generations.

01:51:07.943 --> 01:51:10.943
So we know that all of this is connected.

01:51:10.943 --> 01:51:17.243
We know that the better side of
tribalism, not the worst side of

01:51:17.243 --> 01:51:21.278
tribalism is where happiness lies

01:51:23.958 --> 01:51:25.253
medicine, as you would say.

01:51:25.283 --> 01:51:25.733
You know,

01:51:28.163 --> 01:51:30.053
I think it's time we just got on with it.

01:51:32.663 --> 01:51:37.283
Brandy Tomhave: You know, we all
carry our own medicine because we all

01:51:37.283 --> 01:51:48.083
carry our own stories and we would do
well to humble ourselves, to listen

01:51:48.083 --> 01:51:51.173
to each other's stories, I think.

01:51:52.193 --> 01:51:55.703
And I think that

01:51:59.273 --> 01:52:02.273
gathering together around animals

01:52:02.753 --> 01:52:02.993
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

01:52:03.473 --> 01:52:07.103
Brandy Tomhave: Could create
an opportunity to do just that.

01:52:07.163 --> 01:52:07.913
Where

01:52:10.103 --> 01:52:16.583
daily life otherwise prevents
those kinds of moments of

01:52:16.643 --> 01:52:20.453
community and a deep introspection

01:52:21.953 --> 01:52:24.413
Rupert Isaacson: and stories
can divide as well as unite.

01:52:25.103 --> 01:52:25.223
Brandy Tomhave: Mm-hmm.

01:52:25.493 --> 01:52:28.403
Rupert Isaacson: If the stories, blood
feud, the stories, your grandfather

01:52:28.403 --> 01:52:29.348
did that to my grandfather, right.

01:52:30.128 --> 01:52:33.818
If the story is your people did
that to my people, that can be true.

01:52:34.898 --> 01:52:37.268
But there's also another
story of common humanity.

01:52:38.078 --> 01:52:38.168
Mm-hmm.

01:52:38.438 --> 01:52:38.888
That's also true.

01:52:39.818 --> 01:52:43.058
We, but I, I, I totally hear you.

01:52:43.058 --> 01:52:45.938
It, it's animals that allow
us to hear that second story.

01:52:46.133 --> 01:52:46.553
Brandy Tomhave: Mm-hmm.

01:52:46.933 --> 01:52:47.353
Mm-hmm.

01:52:48.728 --> 01:52:49.268
Yeah.

01:52:49.838 --> 01:52:53.738
And I feel like it's more
necessary now than ever.

01:52:53.768 --> 01:52:59.828
That's in part because I'm 61 and I wanna
get something right before I go, you know?

01:53:00.218 --> 01:53:01.928
Rupert Isaacson: Well, I think you've
probably got about, you've probably got

01:53:01.928 --> 01:53:03.788
more decades than you think, so you can

01:53:04.898 --> 01:53:06.248
Brandy Tomhave: Well, no,
I'm, I'm not planning on going

01:53:06.248 --> 01:53:08.558
anywhere, but I feel like

01:53:08.738 --> 01:53:09.248
Rupert Isaacson: Yes, I hear you.

01:53:09.248 --> 01:53:09.758
That I hear you.

01:53:09.758 --> 01:53:09.998
Such

01:53:09.998 --> 01:53:11.258
Brandy Tomhave: important work, right?

01:53:11.288 --> 01:53:11.348
Yeah.

01:53:11.618 --> 01:53:16.898
I suggest to the Native American Humane
Society without knowing anything about it.

01:53:17.348 --> 01:53:24.398
And I think Native American
was my buy-in, but humane

01:53:24.998 --> 01:53:25.118
Yeah.

01:53:25.148 --> 01:53:25.388
Is

01:53:25.898 --> 01:53:28.328
what is keeping me

01:53:28.688 --> 01:53:29.588
because Absolutely.

01:53:29.798 --> 01:53:32.693
Because that is such a pro profile.

01:53:33.233 --> 01:53:37.223
Found word that is so
needed now more than ever.

01:53:37.433 --> 01:53:39.863
Not just, I mean, I was, yes.

01:53:39.863 --> 01:53:44.963
I, it feels really prescient because
I'm, you know, older and I want to, you

01:53:44.963 --> 01:53:49.643
know, be a part of something that is
that important, but because of what's

01:53:49.643 --> 01:53:51.563
happening in the world right now Hmm.

01:53:51.623 --> 01:53:55.193
And I know that for a lot of
us, we don't know what to do.

01:53:55.613 --> 01:53:58.783
And it's, it's scary.

01:53:59.893 --> 01:54:03.773
It's God, it just feels like,
you know, like kind of the

01:54:03.773 --> 01:54:05.303
doors of hope are just shutting.

01:54:05.783 --> 01:54:06.173
Right.

01:54:06.173 --> 01:54:11.123
And, but there are
opportunities to come together.

01:54:11.903 --> 01:54:11.993
Mm-hmm.

01:54:11.999 --> 01:54:19.673
And, and, you know, and animals create
really wonderful, organic ways to

01:54:19.673 --> 01:54:22.243
do that that are accessible to us.

01:54:22.513 --> 01:54:22.753
Yes, they do.

01:54:23.218 --> 01:54:29.463
And, and I think that and in that way,
they are going to, if, if you feel

01:54:30.273 --> 01:54:38.133
isolated, if you feel disempowered, if
you feel lost, you know, if you can find

01:54:38.133 --> 01:54:44.223
community with animals and with other
people who wanna have this dialogue around

01:54:44.223 --> 01:54:46.473
animals, that's something we can do.

01:54:46.473 --> 01:54:49.653
And we don't need anyone's
permission to do it.

01:54:49.653 --> 01:54:49.713
Yeah.

01:54:51.048 --> 01:54:56.748
And I think it's really necessary
and it could be transformative.

01:54:57.678 --> 01:54:58.188
Rupert Isaacson: I agree.

01:54:58.458 --> 01:54:58.608
For some

01:54:58.608 --> 01:54:59.088
Brandy Tomhave: of us,

01:54:59.388 --> 01:54:59.658
Rupert Isaacson: yes.

01:54:59.658 --> 01:55:03.048
If we can get the interspecies thing
a bit better, we can probably get our

01:55:03.348 --> 01:55:05.598
intra species thing a bit better, right?

01:55:05.868 --> 01:55:06.078
Yeah.

01:55:06.083 --> 01:55:06.243
Right.

01:55:06.433 --> 01:55:07.083
Yeah, exactly.

01:55:07.233 --> 01:55:07.523
Yeah.

01:55:07.818 --> 01:55:08.748
No, I hear you.

01:55:09.438 --> 01:55:11.328
Well, I'm in.

01:55:11.328 --> 01:55:11.358
Okay.

01:55:11.838 --> 01:55:15.108
And I think a lot of our
listeners are too, so

01:55:15.558 --> 01:55:15.798
Brandy Tomhave: Awesome.

01:55:16.038 --> 01:55:18.768
Rupert Isaacson: I'll have a chat with
some other people In Horse Boy World,

01:55:19.008 --> 01:55:24.888
there is a, we, we are having this
conversation in end of 2025 fall of

01:55:24.888 --> 01:55:30.398
2026, there is going to be a neuroscience
conference with a movement method,

01:55:30.398 --> 01:55:35.328
which is our one-horse therapy approach
which we get asked to put on by Eastern

01:55:35.328 --> 01:55:40.738
Virginia Medical School, which is part
of we, part of dominion University.

01:55:40.888 --> 01:55:45.798
And it's about movement and nature and
the mind and mental health, particularly

01:55:45.798 --> 01:55:47.328
from a pediatrician's point of view.

01:55:47.788 --> 01:55:55.458
I think maybe I, let's meet there and
there'll be a bit of a gathering of the

01:55:55.458 --> 01:56:00.228
horse boy folk, and let's have a bit of
a breakout session and talk about this.

01:56:01.318 --> 01:56:02.338
That sounds wonderful.

01:56:02.343 --> 01:56:02.433
All right.

01:56:02.693 --> 01:56:05.038
And I think I might be starting a program.

01:56:06.538 --> 01:56:10.798
Or not me, but one of the people
who was actually at the conference

01:56:10.798 --> 01:56:17.218
we met in, in Missoula, her
family ranch is in North Dakota.

01:56:17.908 --> 01:56:20.728
And we're talking about where
you are now moving to, we are

01:56:20.728 --> 01:56:22.048
talking about getting a program.

01:56:22.198 --> 01:56:23.788
So anyway, things are
clearly coming together.

01:56:23.788 --> 01:56:25.798
Let's, let's chat and see what we can do.

01:56:25.798 --> 01:56:28.288
I'm I'm, I'm so up for the adventure.

01:56:29.488 --> 01:56:31.228
Brandy Tomhave: Well, me too.

01:56:31.648 --> 01:56:36.948
And boy, I would love for you
and, and Rowan and and your wife

01:56:37.158 --> 01:56:39.078
to come visit us in North Dakota.

01:56:39.078 --> 01:56:40.488
It would be amazing.

01:56:40.558 --> 01:56:42.268
I think you have to
bring your sleeping bags.

01:56:42.268 --> 01:56:43.588
We might have you in teepees.

01:56:44.098 --> 01:56:44.608
But

01:56:44.938 --> 01:56:45.838
Rupert Isaacson: so up for that,

01:56:46.228 --> 01:56:49.528
Brandy Tomhave: you know, the
next time we chat I'll be there.

01:56:49.558 --> 01:56:49.958
We're okay.

01:56:49.958 --> 01:56:50.938
Meeting in April.

01:56:51.628 --> 01:56:52.228
Rupert Isaacson: All right.

01:56:52.288 --> 01:56:52.828
All right.

01:56:53.068 --> 01:56:53.488
All right.

01:56:53.548 --> 01:56:54.058
Okay.

01:56:54.238 --> 01:56:58.558
And then I, yeah, we'll, and let's
get you also and, and Jeff on the

01:56:58.558 --> 01:57:00.928
Live Free Ripy podcast and Okay.

01:57:00.928 --> 01:57:01.588
That conversation.

01:57:01.708 --> 01:57:01.768
Yeah,

01:57:02.218 --> 01:57:03.238
Brandy Tomhave: just stay in touch.

01:57:03.298 --> 01:57:03.958
Rupert Isaacson: I will.

01:57:04.588 --> 01:57:05.248
Alright.

01:57:05.938 --> 01:57:11.098
I guess we're at that two hour mark,
so it's probably time to say Aone.

01:57:11.158 --> 01:57:12.658
I will see you on the next one.

01:57:13.328 --> 01:57:13.513
Oh my

01:57:14.468 --> 01:57:15.158
Brandy Tomhave: God, wonderful.

01:57:15.368 --> 01:57:16.328
Rupert Isaacson: Rather than goodbye.

01:57:16.358 --> 01:57:17.648
This has been so great, Brandy.

01:57:17.648 --> 01:57:18.548
Thank you so much.

01:57:19.673 --> 01:57:20.483
Brandy Tomhave: Thank you.

01:57:20.633 --> 01:57:26.863
I I'm really grateful to have met
you and Rowan and for you to be

01:57:26.863 --> 01:57:32.603
willing to keep that conversation
going and I'm very curious and

01:57:32.603 --> 01:57:34.133
excited to see where it takes us.

01:57:34.138 --> 01:57:34.148
Yeah,

01:57:34.778 --> 01:57:35.018
Rupert Isaacson: absolutely.

01:57:35.478 --> 01:57:35.818
All right.

01:57:36.448 --> 01:57:37.378
Till the next time.

01:57:37.418 --> 01:57:37.698
Alright,

01:57:39.758 --> 01:57:39.978
bye.

01:57:40.296 --> 01:57:43.416
I hope you enjoyed today's
conversation as much as I did.

01:57:43.956 --> 01:57:48.856
If you like what we're doing here,
please do like, subscribe, tell a friend.

01:57:48.866 --> 01:57:53.036
It so helps us to get this valuable
work done and the message of

01:57:53.036 --> 01:57:54.916
Equine Assisted Stuff out there.

01:57:55.066 --> 01:57:58.146
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01:57:58.156 --> 01:58:00.836
out I'll live free ride free podcast.

01:58:01.226 --> 01:58:05.986
And if you'd like to support the
podcasts, please go to rupertisakson.

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com and click on the Patreon link.

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If you're a professional in the equine
assisted field or considering a career

01:58:13.096 --> 01:58:16.606
in the equine assisted field, you
might want to check out our three

01:58:16.616 --> 01:58:22.376
certification programs, horseboy
method, movement method, and taquin.

01:58:22.461 --> 01:58:23.931
Equine integration.

01:58:24.201 --> 01:58:29.151
You can find all of those over
on new Trails learning.com.

01:58:29.351 --> 01:58:32.741
And finally, if you want to check
out our cool rock and roll themed

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merch back on rupert isaacson.com,

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please click on Shop.

01:58:37.291 --> 01:58:38.971
You'll find all kinds
of fun goodies there.

01:58:39.151 --> 01:58:44.541
And if you're looking for a way to spend
time until the next podcast, you might

01:58:44.541 --> 01:58:48.651
want to consider reading the books that
kicked all this off The Horse Boy, the

01:58:48.651 --> 01:58:51.461
Long Ride Home and The Healing Land.

01:58:51.731 --> 01:58:53.351
So see you next time on Equine Assistant.

01:58:53.471 --> 01:58:53.801
world.

01:58:54.061 --> 01:58:55.251
Join us for the adventure.