1 00:00:06,510 --> 00:00:10,700 Welcome to Oxford +, the podcast series that takes you deep into the myths and 2 00:00:10,700 --> 00:00:13,140 truths of the Oxford investing landscape. 3 00:00:13,500 --> 00:00:16,269 I'm your host, Susannah de Jager and I've spent over 15 4 00:00:16,270 --> 00:00:17,870 years in UK asset management. 5 00:00:19,080 --> 00:00:20,800 My guest today is Irene Tracey. 6 00:00:21,350 --> 00:00:24,500 Irene became the Vice Chancellor of Oxford University in January 7 00:00:24,500 --> 00:00:27,959 2023, but her connection with the university goes back to her own 8 00:00:28,060 --> 00:00:29,860 undergraduate degree in biochemistry. 9 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:34,999 After leaving Oxford, Irene focused on Magnetic Resonance Imaging at Harvard 10 00:00:34,999 --> 00:00:39,849 Medical School, before returning to Oxford in 1997 as a founding member of 11 00:00:39,849 --> 00:00:44,450 the Oxford Centre for Functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging of the Brain, later 12 00:00:44,450 --> 00:00:47,824 serving as its director from 2005 to 2015. 13 00:00:48,655 --> 00:00:52,235 Irene has held many senior leadership roles within the University, as well as 14 00:00:52,235 --> 00:00:56,444 serving on many national and international committees in her research area. 15 00:00:57,004 --> 00:00:59,694 Of particular interest to the discussion about the investment 16 00:00:59,724 --> 00:01:04,394 ecosystem in and around Oxford is her co authorship of the University Spin 17 00:01:04,394 --> 00:01:08,425 Out Review alongside Andrew Williamson of Cambridge Innovation Capital. 18 00:01:09,405 --> 00:01:14,955 Irene, thank you very much for joining today and I have a special thank you 19 00:01:14,955 --> 00:01:18,905 for you because one of the taglines of Oxford Plus is here about busting 20 00:01:18,915 --> 00:01:23,584 myths and your spin out review, as you co authored with Andrew Willinson, is a 21 00:01:23,584 --> 00:01:28,855 massive one for busting myths and some of them that you've busted and some 22 00:01:28,855 --> 00:01:31,225 of them that you kind of corroborated. 23 00:01:31,415 --> 00:01:35,215 So if I were to give a laundry list for those that might not have read, 24 00:01:35,595 --> 00:01:37,075 but should for what it's worth. 25 00:01:38,005 --> 00:01:43,934 The ones we may be busted, or you busted, University IP stakes and the percentages 26 00:01:43,955 --> 00:01:50,420 taken versus perhaps our US counterparts, every US uni is better and actually it 27 00:01:50,430 --> 00:01:56,160 transpires perhaps just two are marginally ahead and universities cashing in. 28 00:01:56,520 --> 00:02:02,330 But focusing on some of the ones that we suspected are the case, the golden 29 00:02:02,330 --> 00:02:08,280 triangle getting a disproportionate amount of funding, more scale up capital needed, 30 00:02:08,489 --> 00:02:14,035 more government support at both the early and late stages, potentially with the 31 00:02:14,035 --> 00:02:19,415 middle being pretty good and academics aren't necessarily the most commercial. 32 00:02:21,075 --> 00:02:25,925 Now, not taking it in any particular order, because I have so many questions 33 00:02:25,925 --> 00:02:32,085 for you, which one of those are you most focused on at the moment for Oxford? 34 00:02:32,315 --> 00:02:35,875 Well, first of all, thank you for reading the report and I do encourage 35 00:02:35,875 --> 00:02:40,075 the listeners to read it and it was a really interesting journey to be on, 36 00:02:40,095 --> 00:02:43,785 actually, throughout the year and it was terrific to work with Andrew and we were 37 00:02:43,785 --> 00:02:45,025 very grateful to all the stakeholders. 38 00:02:45,025 --> 00:02:48,154 I mean, I think I joked that there was nobody left in Britain to talk to. 39 00:02:48,164 --> 00:02:51,805 We had such engagement and we tried to do that to make sure that 40 00:02:51,805 --> 00:02:54,545 we really did listen to all the different stakeholders at every stage. 41 00:02:54,975 --> 00:02:58,795 Just a caveat maybe before I answer specifically where I'm focused. 42 00:02:58,995 --> 00:03:02,564 The report was constrained in terms of what the government wanted from it. 43 00:03:02,565 --> 00:03:06,454 It was very much for us to focus on that first phase, so within the university 44 00:03:06,454 --> 00:03:10,535 sector, as you are developing your ideas, you know, in your potential 45 00:03:10,535 --> 00:03:14,245 research discoveries that are IPable, I say that as a scientist myself with 46 00:03:14,245 --> 00:03:19,630 it was the journey from that sort of immediate transfer out there, that 47 00:03:19,630 --> 00:03:22,980 first phase of spin out and even just reminding, you know, the government 48 00:03:22,990 --> 00:03:25,010 that not all people spin out companies. 49 00:03:25,180 --> 00:03:28,470 There's a lot of licensing, in fact a lot of it is licensing and what that means 50 00:03:28,470 --> 00:03:31,600 and why one makes the choice between spinning out a company or licensing to 51 00:03:31,649 --> 00:03:36,679 an already made company and not so much to focus on the sort of scaling up bit of 52 00:03:36,679 --> 00:03:39,840 it, or indeed the sort of more series B where the companies then grow even bigger. 53 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:43,390 But we were very keen that we'd speak to that in the report because we felt 54 00:03:43,390 --> 00:03:46,925 that there was a pipeline that needed to be discussed and this was a one off 55 00:03:46,925 --> 00:03:50,135 opportunity to say, okay, let's bust some myths because there was a lot of 56 00:03:50,475 --> 00:03:53,225 twittersphere and commentary that was incorrect and factually just wrong. 57 00:03:53,525 --> 00:03:57,675 So let's use this as a vehicle to bust some myths to really celebrate 58 00:03:57,704 --> 00:04:02,145 actually how well the university sector has done in this space, considering 59 00:04:02,154 --> 00:04:06,155 actually it's very constrained at the moment and struggling financially. 60 00:04:06,570 --> 00:04:10,340 But despite that, how well they've done to actually make this even happen and 61 00:04:10,340 --> 00:04:14,030 what a fantastic achievement that is and to put in the appendix some of the 62 00:04:14,030 --> 00:04:17,600 success stories that you could point to, but then point to some of the things 63 00:04:17,610 --> 00:04:22,450 that we felt would make Britain more competitive, more interesting, have a 64 00:04:22,450 --> 00:04:26,680 particular USP, so not just to, again have the rhetoric, which you know, I 65 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:30,010 teased Jeremy Hunt, the Chancellor, around about just doing a Silicon Valley Me Too. 66 00:04:30,020 --> 00:04:32,830 It's like, that's so unambitious, britain can be much bigger and 67 00:04:32,840 --> 00:04:35,200 better than that and we don't want to just be a Silicon Valley Me Too. 68 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:38,350 Yes, we're great at the life sciences and the physical sciences and the 69 00:04:38,350 --> 00:04:42,199 deep tech sciences, but we're awesome at creative arts and we're awesome 70 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:45,900 at the humanities and there's a huge opportunity in entrepreneurship and 71 00:04:45,900 --> 00:04:49,450 innovation because of all our amazing ability around the creative arts. 72 00:04:49,459 --> 00:04:50,850 So let's speak a little bit to that. 73 00:04:50,850 --> 00:04:53,100 Let's speak about some of the issues around women founders. 74 00:04:53,310 --> 00:04:56,360 Let's speak about the bits that aren't in our control but are in the government's 75 00:04:56,360 --> 00:05:00,570 control, which is why is it we lose a lot of companies at that sort of more 76 00:05:00,570 --> 00:05:04,850 secondary stage because of capital investment, planning, restrictions, 77 00:05:05,180 --> 00:05:07,789 access to a skilled workforce, we can come on to all these issues. 78 00:05:08,110 --> 00:05:10,279 So to go back to your point about, you know, maybe you made a comment about a 79 00:05:10,280 --> 00:05:14,610 disproportionate number and that's an interesting loaded word, it's that there's 80 00:05:14,610 --> 00:05:18,069 just a huge volume, and we've been at this in that golden triangle a lot longer. 81 00:05:18,110 --> 00:05:18,959 It's as simple as that. 82 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:22,380 So there's just a lot more to invest in, but there's just not enough capital. 83 00:05:22,419 --> 00:05:23,440 So it's not disproportionate. 84 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:27,050 It's that there's not enough capital to invest in other places and there's just 85 00:05:27,050 --> 00:05:31,155 a disproportionate amount of opportunity in this region because we've just been 86 00:05:31,164 --> 00:05:32,585 doing the innovation piece longer. 87 00:05:32,585 --> 00:05:37,184 So part of the report was also to say, learn from how we've learned the journey 88 00:05:37,645 --> 00:05:41,114 for the new places around the country, the universities that want to be a 89 00:05:41,114 --> 00:05:44,655 part of this and want to do innovation, what is it that we've learned that 90 00:05:44,664 --> 00:05:47,855 you should learn now and go and start here, not where we were 20 years ago? 91 00:05:48,025 --> 00:05:48,875 How can we help you? 92 00:05:49,105 --> 00:05:52,745 How can we encourage the government to think about more innovative ways, 93 00:05:52,755 --> 00:05:58,044 forgiving the pun, of facilitating some of those university places to 94 00:05:58,075 --> 00:06:01,505 be a part of this because there is no shortage in this country in our 95 00:06:01,505 --> 00:06:06,334 brilliant university sector, fantastic ideas, amazing opportunity to generate 96 00:06:06,334 --> 00:06:09,894 more IP and there's a thirst and an appetite for entrepreneurship. 97 00:06:09,895 --> 00:06:13,664 So, long answer but you know I'm very focused obviously in my role 98 00:06:13,665 --> 00:06:19,299 as running the university here is to continue to inculcate an excitement 99 00:06:19,580 --> 00:06:23,049 around the opportunities that innovation and licensing and spin 100 00:06:23,049 --> 00:06:26,460 out bring because I recognise in our students, whether undergraduate, 101 00:06:26,460 --> 00:06:30,299 graduate and our young early career researchers, they want in parallel, 102 00:06:30,309 --> 00:06:31,509 many of them do this type of thing. 103 00:06:31,510 --> 00:06:33,909 Not everybody, some people don't want anything to do with that and that's 104 00:06:33,909 --> 00:06:38,120 absolutely fine too, but as a modern day institution, we're really good at 105 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:42,339 this, this is a fantastic way we can make impact, further impact beyond 106 00:06:42,339 --> 00:06:46,159 our discovery research and contribute to the betterment of society, which 107 00:06:46,159 --> 00:06:47,299 is what a university is about. 108 00:06:48,059 --> 00:06:52,189 We are pretty good at it and we've learned a lot in the past 20 years, there is 109 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:55,340 more we could do and there are ways that we can definitely improve and do that 110 00:06:55,340 --> 00:07:01,350 better and that's at every level of the institution, so again, training, awareness 111 00:07:01,350 --> 00:07:05,210 at the undergraduate, graduate level, creating opportunities, getting people to 112 00:07:05,230 --> 00:07:09,390 buddy up and meet with entrepreneurs and be inspired by those investigators in my 113 00:07:09,390 --> 00:07:12,549 university that are serial entrepreneurs and have four or five companies spun 114 00:07:12,549 --> 00:07:16,549 out, to be inspired by them and to get opportunities to work with them and then 115 00:07:16,549 --> 00:07:21,959 to continue to facilitate ways that we can think about how, when we are developing 116 00:07:21,959 --> 00:07:25,350 people's careers, that we make it just easier for them to, in addition, if they 117 00:07:25,350 --> 00:07:30,150 want to, be an entrepreneur and to spend some time spinning out and to have what 118 00:07:30,199 --> 00:07:34,199 has been historically quite a rigid tenure track process where sort of you're in 119 00:07:34,199 --> 00:07:38,189 the job and that's it and if you go, you go, to have a slight more flexibility, I 120 00:07:38,189 --> 00:07:43,179 call it porosity, to sort of, for us to think about what does a modern academic 121 00:07:43,179 --> 00:07:47,090 career look like and it should be more porous, it should facilitate people who 122 00:07:47,090 --> 00:07:49,929 want to take some time out or they want to be part time in maybe the private 123 00:07:49,929 --> 00:07:52,949 sector that might be their private sector that they've spun out or somebody 124 00:07:52,949 --> 00:07:56,369 else's and then in the public sector which is being part of a university. 125 00:07:56,649 --> 00:08:00,319 What is it that I can do to again encourage that way of thinking and 126 00:08:00,319 --> 00:08:04,169 to develop the mechanisms by which we facilitate that more readily and of 127 00:08:04,169 --> 00:08:08,030 course then there's the sort of lowering, hopefully, more capital investment in, 128 00:08:08,039 --> 00:08:10,470 because for every company we spin out, there's several we can't, because we just 129 00:08:10,470 --> 00:08:15,099 don't have enough capital, how do we then facilitate in our ecosystem, and I'm sure 130 00:08:15,099 --> 00:08:19,040 we'll come on to this, new ways that we can also hold on to that incredible talent 131 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:22,500 pool and all those companies, because that will drive regional economic benefit 132 00:08:22,599 --> 00:08:25,950 for the region and I'm born and bred in the city, so you know, it really matters 133 00:08:25,950 --> 00:08:29,900 to me that we, as a university, which of course we do as a big anchor institution, 134 00:08:29,900 --> 00:08:32,970 the major employer, and we pump billions into the economy, but there's more we can 135 00:08:32,970 --> 00:08:36,700 also do and how can we do that through the innovation spin out opportunities? 136 00:08:36,825 --> 00:08:40,735 Yeah and I think that's a really important point you raise and one I was discussing 137 00:08:40,735 --> 00:08:44,704 yesterday at Harwell, talking about, you know, Blackbird Leys are right there, 138 00:08:45,275 --> 00:08:49,335 you know, what can we do more to create opportunities, not just for the elite 139 00:08:49,395 --> 00:08:51,965 that they primarily would appear to serve. 140 00:08:52,944 --> 00:08:56,675 Coming back to something you said about, you know kind of learning for 141 00:08:56,694 --> 00:09:01,100 other universities and being able to do things there, I had a recent 142 00:09:01,100 --> 00:09:04,910 guest, Dave Norwood, who was saying that actually the levelling up agenda 143 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:11,169 being layered onto the innovation ecosystem belies some of the realities 144 00:09:11,230 --> 00:09:16,469 of clustering and clearly, universities all have hopefully brilliant academics 145 00:09:16,479 --> 00:09:18,190 and the ability to spin companies out. 146 00:09:18,469 --> 00:09:24,060 But those companies thriving locally, is not necessarily always going to be 147 00:09:24,060 --> 00:09:28,360 easy and that clusters have a lot of things that you have alluded to that they 148 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:34,530 need to survive, not least talent and mobility of talent and density of talent, 149 00:09:34,780 --> 00:09:39,160 housing, supply, financing options, etc. 150 00:09:39,820 --> 00:09:44,680 Oxford has many of those here and is expanding and the science parks, but 151 00:09:44,680 --> 00:09:46,210 we would all like that to be the case. 152 00:09:46,210 --> 00:09:50,110 Do you genuinely believe that it's going to be possible that every university 153 00:09:50,410 --> 00:09:52,090 town can have its own cluster? 154 00:09:52,454 --> 00:09:55,935 It's a really important point and there's a lot in there to unpack. 155 00:09:55,935 --> 00:10:00,954 So yes, whilst Oxford will look good on the UK landscape in terms of density 156 00:10:01,015 --> 00:10:06,084 of people in the ecosystem, it is a far cry from my competitors which are 157 00:10:06,084 --> 00:10:09,844 sitting in Kendall Square in Boston and Stanford and San Francisco and 158 00:10:09,845 --> 00:10:12,785 those, I remind people, even though we beat them in every league table, which 159 00:10:12,785 --> 00:10:15,964 we should be very proud of, it's like winning the World Cup year after year. 160 00:10:16,235 --> 00:10:19,435 We do it, we're a public university, publicly funded, they sit on private 161 00:10:19,505 --> 00:10:23,015 investments, they are private universities with sixty billion of endowments and yet 162 00:10:23,064 --> 00:10:26,735 we do really well and they've of course in the innovation space been at it a lot 163 00:10:26,735 --> 00:10:29,395 longer which is why they've got trillion dollar companies sitting on them but what 164 00:10:29,405 --> 00:10:33,055 they do have which is sort of again a place that we need to be competing with 165 00:10:33,055 --> 00:10:36,044 is just such a volume in that ecosystem. 166 00:10:36,114 --> 00:10:37,924 They just walk across a corridor and there's people that they could 167 00:10:37,935 --> 00:10:41,375 bring into their companies the CEOs who are experts that academics need 168 00:10:41,795 --> 00:10:45,564 you know capital investment you know all that is just there at scale, at 169 00:10:45,564 --> 00:10:47,790 a level that's just jaw dropping. 170 00:10:48,010 --> 00:10:51,569 Now we will get there in Britain, undoubtedly and you know, places 171 00:10:51,569 --> 00:10:54,199 like Oxford and others are sort of on the journey there, 172 00:10:54,199 --> 00:10:56,290 but we're not anywhere close. 173 00:10:56,360 --> 00:10:58,630 People should just, the listeners should be just reminded of some of 174 00:10:58,630 --> 00:10:59,810 the challenges that we even have. 175 00:11:00,159 --> 00:11:03,950 Now, to go back to your question around the clustering, it's key that when you're 176 00:11:03,950 --> 00:11:07,690 creating these innovation systems, you do have the ambition and scale to want to 177 00:11:07,690 --> 00:11:12,240 have that mix because you need to signpost people again to the capital investors, 178 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:16,299 to the IP lawyers, to the people that are going to be your great CEOs, to ease 179 00:11:16,300 --> 00:11:21,009 of planning and building at scale, to a great workforce, as you say, in areas 180 00:11:21,010 --> 00:11:24,140 that you've got school kids coming out and want interesting new different jobs 181 00:11:24,190 --> 00:11:27,640 or people want to reskill into different jobs and you can create that opportunity. 182 00:11:27,870 --> 00:11:31,490 We need skilled people to come and work in these companies and that's something again 183 00:11:31,490 --> 00:11:35,700 that part of what we need to think about also, it's not quite in your question 184 00:11:35,700 --> 00:11:40,760 but something to again reflect on, is how much we need to think about what more we 185 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:43,849 need to do within the school system as part of the training or apprenticeships 186 00:11:44,090 --> 00:11:48,229 to help facilitate that and actually get involved in the training of the skilled 187 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:51,650 workforce in Britain, that is one of the reasons as we point in the report a lot 188 00:11:51,650 --> 00:11:54,470 of companies go when they want to really scale up because they just feel they 189 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:57,490 haven't got the skilled enough workforce here or the capital investment or the ease 190 00:11:57,490 --> 00:12:01,800 of planning to go and scale up a company and we lose them, right when they're 191 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:06,450 ready to contribute massively economically and we just let them go and it's tragic 192 00:12:06,490 --> 00:12:09,950 and we just got to stop that happening having invested in them with publicly 193 00:12:09,950 --> 00:12:11,650 funded money in our public institutions. 194 00:12:12,060 --> 00:12:16,249 So one of the things you note in the report we did is say very clearly, to 195 00:12:16,249 --> 00:12:21,194 run the volume of companies say Oxford spin out 25-30 a year, to run a tech 196 00:12:21,215 --> 00:12:24,105 transfer office that's doing the bit, just for the listener who's not aware 197 00:12:24,105 --> 00:12:27,965 of how it works, you've got me as a researcher working, I have an idea, we 198 00:12:27,965 --> 00:12:31,395 patent it, we want to then potentially license it or spin it, you have an office 199 00:12:31,415 --> 00:12:33,005 inside the university that advises you. 200 00:12:33,305 --> 00:12:35,614 They're going to get you the barrister who's going to then protect it with 201 00:12:35,615 --> 00:12:38,655 a patent in different territories, they'll point you to different people 202 00:12:38,655 --> 00:12:41,615 who might want to invest or to different people who'll be skilled enough to help 203 00:12:41,625 --> 00:12:45,420 run your company or whether you need to be advised to go with a licensing 204 00:12:45,420 --> 00:12:48,630 route to sell it to, say one of the big pharma companies instead, rather than 205 00:12:48,630 --> 00:12:50,170 always spinning out your own company. 206 00:12:50,730 --> 00:12:54,979 But to make that tech transfer office be really good and really skilled with great 207 00:12:54,979 --> 00:12:58,899 quality people, as we have in Oxford, such a fantastic tech transfer office 208 00:12:58,899 --> 00:13:02,530 with Oxford University Innovation, you've got a big volume that you've got to be 209 00:13:02,530 --> 00:13:05,410 generating to make that wash its face and you're not going to be able to do 210 00:13:05,410 --> 00:13:08,579 that in every university, particularly small universities, they just won't 211 00:13:08,610 --> 00:13:10,439 have the volume and neither should they. 212 00:13:10,839 --> 00:13:14,669 So what we pointed to was to say in regions and maybe you would start 213 00:13:14,669 --> 00:13:17,990 where the government's already decided to create investment zones, you would 214 00:13:17,990 --> 00:13:23,685 create a one stop shop, which not that you're creating a cluster within the 215 00:13:23,685 --> 00:13:28,305 university's cluster around that one stop shop so that you can have a really 216 00:13:28,305 --> 00:13:31,665 quality one stop shop where you've got all that advice and that signposting. 217 00:13:32,045 --> 00:13:35,274 Each university isn't then going to the cost and the effort of trying to invent 218 00:13:35,274 --> 00:13:38,564 it all and have it all in house, but you've got a quality place that you can 219 00:13:38,564 --> 00:13:42,535 go to in your region that can help you get going on that journey with really 220 00:13:42,535 --> 00:13:46,505 good advice and that's again what I was saying to the start, you know, with some 221 00:13:46,505 --> 00:13:49,704 of the things it's not under our control, but that's where the government need to 222 00:13:49,704 --> 00:13:54,464 now do the work and decide where they're going to put these, you know, one stop 223 00:13:54,464 --> 00:13:58,094 shops and these clusters so that you can start to within a region where you've 224 00:13:58,094 --> 00:14:01,995 got three or four universities in a geographical area, they can get going, 225 00:14:02,005 --> 00:14:05,324 they can have a really good quality, you know, set of advice, they don't have 226 00:14:05,324 --> 00:14:09,410 to set it all up in house, particularly when, the financial constraints of 227 00:14:09,410 --> 00:14:14,120 universities is very tested and then they can start to think about how does 228 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:18,780 that shape then other aspects of growth in that region in the context of those 229 00:14:18,809 --> 00:14:22,860 companies being successful and wanting to stay and putting in more investment. 230 00:14:23,409 --> 00:14:28,680 Now where places like Oxford and London Universities and Cambridge are helping 231 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:33,025 in the context beyond just advice and this learn from us and this is how 232 00:14:33,025 --> 00:14:36,935 we've done it, it's some very specific things that also speak to the leveling 233 00:14:36,935 --> 00:14:41,794 up and that is to say we can't, you know, I can't place all the companies 234 00:14:41,794 --> 00:14:45,284 that we generate, but there are other universities that are trying to build 235 00:14:45,284 --> 00:14:48,689 innovation space because they've got spare land, they've got areas that they'd 236 00:14:48,689 --> 00:14:50,170 like to use, but they can't fill them. 237 00:14:50,300 --> 00:14:53,359 Well, what a happy marriage that is, so we signed a deal with for instance, 238 00:14:53,359 --> 00:14:57,189 Birmingham University, where we're placing companies there and again, we're looking 239 00:14:57,189 --> 00:15:02,889 at other places where we can move talent, move money, move opportunities and place 240 00:15:02,890 --> 00:15:07,330 them in different parts around the country and that's a real win-win and we're doing 241 00:15:07,380 --> 00:15:09,040 that, not just in this innovation spinner. 242 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:11,595 We're actually doing lots of things in our basic research and collaborations anyway. 243 00:15:11,595 --> 00:15:15,265 A lot of the research that we do, particularly in the medical sciences, 244 00:15:15,295 --> 00:15:19,475 is in very much collaborative context and is setting up ways that 245 00:15:19,475 --> 00:15:22,354 you exchange talent, you know, and the talent pool can be distributed. 246 00:15:22,355 --> 00:15:24,615 So these are the more, as I often say to government, you 247 00:15:24,615 --> 00:15:26,274 don't asset strip to level up. 248 00:15:26,795 --> 00:15:29,365 You know, you've got great assets that are phenomenal. 249 00:15:29,885 --> 00:15:31,980 You know, if they're strong, everybody's strong. 250 00:15:31,990 --> 00:15:33,380 If they're weak, well, it's all done. 251 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:37,900 But we do have to address the fact that there's not a spread, but you need to 252 00:15:37,900 --> 00:15:40,780 make the pie bigger and you need my to... 253 00:15:41,140 --> 00:15:43,150 yeah, it's just obvious, it's not rocket science. 254 00:15:43,329 --> 00:15:44,780 So, you know, we're strong. 255 00:15:44,789 --> 00:15:48,679 We will do and grow stronger, but we will also spread that beyond our 256 00:15:48,679 --> 00:15:51,980 geographical boundaries as we are and as actually we have done, it's 257 00:15:51,980 --> 00:15:53,140 just often people don't know that. 258 00:15:53,310 --> 00:15:56,350 No, that's really wonderful, thank you for explaining that, that's very clear. 259 00:15:56,810 --> 00:16:00,130 So within our boundaries, one of the things that again was mentioned 260 00:16:00,130 --> 00:16:03,370 in the report was sort of liaising between business schools for that 261 00:16:03,390 --> 00:16:07,970 more entrepreneurial, commercial talent and often the people going 262 00:16:07,970 --> 00:16:11,670 into those forums are already more experienced in the commercial world 263 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:14,610 and twinning up with the academics. 264 00:16:15,170 --> 00:16:19,099 It's not something one has a sense is happening optimally 265 00:16:19,115 --> 00:16:20,504 in Oxford as it stands. 266 00:16:20,655 --> 00:16:23,865 I think somebody explained to me once that the history of the Saïd Business 267 00:16:23,865 --> 00:16:28,475 School was that the university didn't originally want it and that there's some 268 00:16:28,475 --> 00:16:32,645 sort of weird hangover from that but clearly there's so much mutual benefit 269 00:16:32,654 --> 00:16:38,234 from this amazing business school and this world leading university being combined. 270 00:16:38,524 --> 00:16:42,135 Is that something you're focused on here and how do you see that evolving? 271 00:16:42,135 --> 00:16:44,400 Yeah, it's such a good point and again, I'm just going to bust that myth. 272 00:16:44,439 --> 00:16:48,115 I've been in Oxford my whole career for 35 years and I've never 273 00:16:48,115 --> 00:16:49,425 heard that and I'm on the inside. 274 00:16:49,495 --> 00:16:50,215 Oh, I love that! 275 00:16:50,215 --> 00:16:51,595 That's myth number one. 276 00:16:51,735 --> 00:16:52,825 Apologies to the listeners! 277 00:16:52,825 --> 00:16:56,704 It is, well, I think it is fair to say that, you know, the business school in 278 00:16:56,795 --> 00:17:00,114 its development and growth from ground roots is very focused on just developing 279 00:17:00,114 --> 00:17:03,755 a business school that could quite quickly get up, you know, to a successful level 280 00:17:04,255 --> 00:17:07,565 and naturally, you might have some people feel that it's not integrated enough. 281 00:17:07,895 --> 00:17:11,295 But that's an evolution of how any new thing is going to develop, it's got to 282 00:17:11,295 --> 00:17:15,365 be brilliant itself and focus on what it's doing and then as it matures, it 283 00:17:15,365 --> 00:17:18,914 starts to make that connectivity both internally and then more externally 284 00:17:18,914 --> 00:17:22,125 and that's just an evolution thing and that's absolutely the phase it's in. 285 00:17:22,125 --> 00:17:25,994 Sumitra Dutta, who's the new Dean, he's coming in and inheriting a 286 00:17:25,994 --> 00:17:28,224 business school that's now, you know, up the league tables, doing 287 00:17:28,224 --> 00:17:30,895 well, attracting more students than we can take, et cetera, et cetera. 288 00:17:31,235 --> 00:17:35,554 So in this evolution, it's very much about, right, how can I benefit even 289 00:17:35,554 --> 00:17:38,054 more from being in the university and all the amazing talent? 290 00:17:38,064 --> 00:17:40,284 How can we reciprocate and put things in? 291 00:17:40,855 --> 00:17:43,365 So that's just a sort of explanation about how things really work when 292 00:17:43,365 --> 00:17:45,945 you're building new enterprises and again, there's always lots of 293 00:17:45,945 --> 00:17:48,325 commentary and myths in Oxford, which, you know, I'm often staggered 294 00:17:48,325 --> 00:17:49,365 at and I've been there for 35 years! 295 00:17:49,365 --> 00:17:53,040 I was given a very detailed version of that, we'll discuss 296 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:54,420 it offline, that's hilarious! 297 00:17:54,495 --> 00:17:56,795 There are always anecdotes of things, but you know, the anecdote 298 00:17:56,855 --> 00:18:00,614 of the anecdote as opposed to the generic sort of broad understanding. 299 00:18:00,615 --> 00:18:04,734 But Sumitra is brilliant as the new Dean and is absolutely, you know, 300 00:18:04,735 --> 00:18:07,275 he's running a leadership program for all our, you know, heads of 301 00:18:07,275 --> 00:18:09,395 department, there's all sorts of stuff he's doing, so it's very integrated. 302 00:18:09,744 --> 00:18:12,175 But the point you're making, having sort of just corrected 303 00:18:12,175 --> 00:18:14,125 that, is that it's not just Oxford. 304 00:18:14,205 --> 00:18:18,784 There was a really surprising lack of engagement across the country of business 305 00:18:18,784 --> 00:18:23,995 schools, tying in with the innovation piece and that was a real surprise to us 306 00:18:24,054 --> 00:18:29,545 when, you know, we identified that one of the challenges was, as you spin out, the 307 00:18:29,605 --> 00:18:34,355 quality of the CEOs you can get access to, the ability to grow that company 308 00:18:34,424 --> 00:18:37,575 and meanwhile, you've all these business schools around the country and the two 309 00:18:37,575 --> 00:18:41,145 weren't meeting or talking, so that's why we flagged it as an issue more generally 310 00:18:41,685 --> 00:18:44,445 and certainly, obviously I'm talking to our business school and Sumitra and 311 00:18:44,445 --> 00:18:47,415 there's huge appetite and they're running innovation schemes, entrepreneurship 312 00:18:47,420 --> 00:18:50,385 schemes, running summer programs, they're all part of some of the programs that 313 00:18:50,385 --> 00:18:51,825 we run anyway and have been running. 314 00:18:52,065 --> 00:18:53,445 So they have been quite integrated. 315 00:18:53,655 --> 00:18:57,625 But what we need, again, it's holding on, I refer to it as the challenge and 316 00:18:57,625 --> 00:19:00,835 the trick we've got is how do we hold on to that talent pool once they've 317 00:19:00,835 --> 00:19:04,095 graduated and left, because you want them to stay and of course, these are 318 00:19:04,095 --> 00:19:08,385 very attractive students who've got lots of amazing opportunities and offers. 319 00:19:08,874 --> 00:19:12,574 Oxfordshire is beautiful, I love it, I'm borne and bred in it, but there's not that 320 00:19:12,574 --> 00:19:17,215 many different types of jobs, to do here and that's part of the growth opportunity 321 00:19:17,225 --> 00:19:19,895 and then you can hold on to more of your talent pool because there's interesting 322 00:19:19,905 --> 00:19:22,944 things for them to want to stay and do and that's where the two will meet. 323 00:19:23,455 --> 00:19:26,254 So I think it's, again, it's all part of, you're always on a journey, 324 00:19:26,254 --> 00:19:29,485 always evolving, you know, naturally quite a lot of the people coming to 325 00:19:29,525 --> 00:19:32,315 our business schools will be heading into London or they'll be heading 326 00:19:32,325 --> 00:19:34,725 into sort of bigger cities where there's just bigger businesses. 327 00:19:35,115 --> 00:19:39,400 So one of the challenges you've got and I've got is making Oxfordshire an 328 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:44,560 opportunity innovation ecosystem, you know, with a stunning, beautiful city 329 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:48,960 in the middle of it, juxtaposed to the greatest city in the world of London. 330 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:54,790 Cambridge is another great city close by, all the rest is in Britain and a place 331 00:19:54,790 --> 00:19:59,325 where not just for our own people coming through our school system, but also people 332 00:19:59,325 --> 00:20:03,574 that come in as students, we hold on to amazing talent and we build and drive 333 00:20:03,574 --> 00:20:06,605 economic growth and all the benefits that come with that in this region. 334 00:20:06,605 --> 00:20:10,145 So we address some of the challenges of worst life longevity in the country, 335 00:20:10,165 --> 00:20:13,710 you know, within our own city, some of the schools that are not performing 336 00:20:13,710 --> 00:20:16,630 as well as, you know, we would like them to be considering their city next 337 00:20:16,630 --> 00:20:18,530 to a great world leading institution. 338 00:20:18,830 --> 00:20:22,340 These are all the things that, you know, we hope that we can be a part of fixing 339 00:20:22,610 --> 00:20:25,960 by creating that broader ecosystem and I often go out, you know, to my alumni 340 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:28,300 who sit out on the West Coast and they're part of the Silicon Valley lot 341 00:20:28,669 --> 00:20:33,849 or Boston or out in Asia and they will say, and I will agree, and it's like, 342 00:20:33,889 --> 00:20:39,429 where else in the world is there such a phenomenal combination of things that's 343 00:20:39,430 --> 00:20:46,125 so amazing and capable of developing something that is truly world beating. 344 00:20:46,655 --> 00:20:50,525 When you think you've got a world great city, you've got two historic 1, 000 345 00:20:50,525 --> 00:20:54,044 year old universities that have beaten everybody else in the world, you've got 346 00:20:54,095 --> 00:20:57,594 extraordinary creative arts on the M4 corridor, you've got some of the greatest 347 00:20:57,595 --> 00:21:01,025 national labs that are knocking socks off what's going on in Europe, you've 348 00:21:01,025 --> 00:21:02,965 got beautiful cities and countryside. 349 00:21:03,125 --> 00:21:07,305 There is nowhere else in the world that's got that constellation anywhere, 350 00:21:07,335 --> 00:21:10,790 tell me and nobody can and these are people sitting on the West Coast and 351 00:21:10,790 --> 00:21:12,470 the East Coast of America and in Asia. 352 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:13,570 We've got them licked. 353 00:21:13,750 --> 00:21:17,870 So let's do it, let's be ambitious, let's think about what we create in this region 354 00:21:17,900 --> 00:21:22,120 and we can absolutely do this and it will be phenomenal and that's how you will 355 00:21:22,120 --> 00:21:26,099 build Britain back strong and economically and that's the sort of opportunities 356 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:29,770 I see and try to sort of instill the report and what I'm saying very publicly, 357 00:21:29,910 --> 00:21:33,395 you know, under my stewardship, which is, you know, obviously a short period. 358 00:21:33,675 --> 00:21:35,925 I will do my best to set this in train. 359 00:21:36,125 --> 00:21:39,305 It'll take longer than my stewardship, but at least I'll set it off and that's 360 00:21:39,305 --> 00:21:43,005 the ambition and aspiration I have for the region, but it's also for the country. 361 00:21:43,025 --> 00:21:47,305 You make a really interesting point about the broader ecosystem, jobs that 362 00:21:47,305 --> 00:21:49,145 are outside of the current domain. 363 00:21:49,805 --> 00:21:53,135 Funny enough, when I moved to Oxford, my background is financial services 364 00:21:53,144 --> 00:21:57,804 and I was struck by how few investment companies there were here and it's 365 00:21:57,815 --> 00:22:02,234 something that you bring up in the report, is about diversity of capital 366 00:22:02,995 --> 00:22:04,745 and Cambridge does have more of it. 367 00:22:04,765 --> 00:22:07,705 I remember thinking, gosh, I've picked the wrong city for my background! 368 00:22:07,755 --> 00:22:11,504 I don't feel that way now, but I really, I thought gosh, I thought there would 369 00:22:11,515 --> 00:22:17,495 be more and there isn't and you do point very explicitly towards universities, as 370 00:22:17,495 --> 00:22:22,145 you say, learning from the experience of those that have gone before and very much 371 00:22:22,315 --> 00:22:26,775 making sure that they can appeal to as wide a range of investors as possible. 372 00:22:27,665 --> 00:22:30,895 How do you see Oxford evolving and what do you think in five and 373 00:22:30,895 --> 00:22:32,425 ten years it needs to look like? 374 00:22:32,425 --> 00:22:36,315 Because it is still relatively constrained compared to Cambridge. 375 00:22:36,335 --> 00:22:37,725 Oh, yeah, it absolutely is. 376 00:22:37,755 --> 00:22:39,835 I mean, we always laugh because Cambridge obviously is brilliant 377 00:22:39,835 --> 00:22:40,745 and it's doing very well. 378 00:22:41,074 --> 00:22:43,084 But on many metrics, we have them beaten. 379 00:22:43,084 --> 00:22:45,744 We've had them beaten for ages, but there's a, we somehow don't sort of 380 00:22:45,744 --> 00:22:51,135 communicate that and if I can say that their ability to build at scale, 381 00:22:51,295 --> 00:22:55,384 different areas has just been a lot easier and that's really a major difference. 382 00:22:55,955 --> 00:22:58,445 But you're right, I mean, you know, going back to sort of, why did 383 00:22:58,445 --> 00:23:00,055 we suddenly take off in Oxford? 384 00:23:00,155 --> 00:23:03,245 And it goes back to the sort of capital and then how we must develop the capital 385 00:23:03,245 --> 00:23:06,065 and I know that you've interviewed Ed Bussey, who's the new terrific, you 386 00:23:06,065 --> 00:23:07,844 know, head of Oxford Science Enterprises. 387 00:23:07,845 --> 00:23:11,105 But, you know, when I was a young, early career scientist, you know, we 388 00:23:11,105 --> 00:23:13,979 patented things and then you put them in the drawer, did nothing with it. 389 00:23:14,030 --> 00:23:18,350 Occasionally, a bold, brave scientist would sort of pack up the job and 390 00:23:18,360 --> 00:23:22,250 have a go and get some venture capital money somehow and some of 391 00:23:22,250 --> 00:23:25,820 them were brilliantly successful and did really well, but a lot just chose 392 00:23:25,820 --> 00:23:28,930 not to do that because it's just too high risk and a lot didn't succeed. 393 00:23:29,460 --> 00:23:33,645 But the moment we created a fund and it wasn't a big fund at the start, and that 394 00:23:33,645 --> 00:23:37,004 was the sort of subsequent, it's been renamed many times, but now it's OSE. 395 00:23:37,575 --> 00:23:40,965 You just look at the graph, the moment we created the capital pot, bang, 396 00:23:40,975 --> 00:23:44,535 we went off and then the curve just rocketed to, you know, 300 companies 397 00:23:44,535 --> 00:23:46,204 now in that past decade, right? 398 00:23:46,475 --> 00:23:47,695 And it's absolutely causal. 399 00:23:47,705 --> 00:23:52,310 So all it needed to light the fire was a dollop of money and then we were 400 00:23:52,310 --> 00:23:55,690 there, we were doing our bit, generating IP, had the ideas, ready to go. 401 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:59,790 We just didn't have the means to actually do anything with it and so do not 402 00:23:59,790 --> 00:24:01,430 underestimate the importance of capital. 403 00:24:01,850 --> 00:24:04,450 Obviously, we've got to see a more model, but we just need more 404 00:24:04,749 --> 00:24:08,739 money in the system and of course, venture capital is one way to do it. 405 00:24:08,740 --> 00:24:10,280 But as we say, the report is not the only way. 406 00:24:10,510 --> 00:24:15,215 You've got some, a lot of students and early career researchers want to do 407 00:24:15,215 --> 00:24:18,735 different types of spin outs, they want to be more social enterprise, they want to 408 00:24:18,735 --> 00:24:23,985 be a bit more of an NGO maybe model, they want to have different types of investors 409 00:24:23,985 --> 00:24:26,905 that may be more angel investors, there might be some people who will do 410 00:24:26,905 --> 00:24:28,375 it through a philanthropic donation. 411 00:24:28,375 --> 00:24:31,635 There's a whole range and I think again as ever in life, you want diversity, 412 00:24:31,895 --> 00:24:36,225 you want a menu of different ways of having capital come in and support you 413 00:24:36,695 --> 00:24:42,290 dependent on what it is you're aiming to do with your particular idea and so you 414 00:24:42,290 --> 00:24:45,320 know, where do I see things in five to, I would love to have billions of pounds 415 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:50,240 in my ecosystem here and a range of different ways that people would want to 416 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:53,599 invest and we have opportunities to think about how would we like to be invested 417 00:24:53,599 --> 00:24:56,289 in, because not everybody wants to go down the VC model, but that's a sort 418 00:24:56,289 --> 00:24:59,580 of common model at the moment and what we're trying to do is also remind the 419 00:24:59,580 --> 00:25:01,170 government, it doesn't have to just be VC. 420 00:25:01,455 --> 00:25:04,495 Here's a set of examples of how people did it very differently and there's pros and 421 00:25:04,495 --> 00:25:06,765 cons with that different way of investing. 422 00:25:07,255 --> 00:25:11,605 But we don't have enough, the short answer is for the volume of opportunity 423 00:25:11,854 --> 00:25:15,425 that's coming through, we do not have enough capital by a wide margin and 424 00:25:15,425 --> 00:25:16,655 we've just got to keep growing it. 425 00:25:17,035 --> 00:25:21,875 So part of it is to, you know, excite and interest people to come into our ecosystem 426 00:25:21,875 --> 00:25:26,165 because it's a phenomenal place to be and work, you will not be short of opportunity 427 00:25:26,625 --> 00:25:28,094 and it's exciting opportunities. 428 00:25:28,095 --> 00:25:30,834 These are really interesting projects that are not just going to make money, 429 00:25:31,125 --> 00:25:33,885 they're going to do great things in the world because everything we're doing by 430 00:25:33,885 --> 00:25:37,925 definition in an academic environment is stuff that's good for people and the 431 00:25:37,925 --> 00:25:39,644 society and the world and the planet. 432 00:25:39,645 --> 00:25:44,145 So whether it's our amazing new work developing extraordinary new generation 433 00:25:44,155 --> 00:25:48,225 batteries and the capabilities to store efficiently the energy there, whether 434 00:25:48,225 --> 00:25:51,505 it's amazing new chemistry materials on solar panels to be more efficient 435 00:25:51,505 --> 00:25:55,155 in the cloudy weathers of Britain, you know, obviously drugs and vaccines are 436 00:25:55,155 --> 00:25:58,795 a given obviously with the COVID one and then with malaria one, you know, 437 00:25:59,065 --> 00:26:03,770 we save lives and we make the world a greener place and this is what we do. 438 00:26:03,770 --> 00:26:07,760 So it's not just that you'll also make a lot of money, you'll be doing good 439 00:26:07,820 --> 00:26:11,820 for the world and my sense is that, you know, I look at my children's 440 00:26:11,820 --> 00:26:15,850 generation, they want something different and we've gone through a phase where 441 00:26:15,850 --> 00:26:19,829 it's all just about the money and that's very much a hard driven model 442 00:26:19,829 --> 00:26:23,460 that has borne and bred the brilliance that's happened on Silicon Valley and 443 00:26:23,630 --> 00:26:26,630 the East Coast, but I think, again, think about what Britain wants, think 444 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:28,310 about sort of what our value system is. 445 00:26:28,310 --> 00:26:30,839 Sure, you need to make money and there's no shame in making money and 446 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:32,540 that's great, that fuels everything. 447 00:26:32,860 --> 00:26:38,440 But you can do it and do good too and I think, you know, we can build an ecosystem 448 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:42,440 that will again, embrace more the creative arts in addition, and our brilliance in 449 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:47,850 that in Britain, it will also embrace women as founders and investors and the 450 00:26:47,850 --> 00:26:51,440 capabilities there that we're missing out on, it feels to me a little bit like 451 00:26:51,930 --> 00:26:55,639 where we were in academia 25 years ago, you're just missing talent because of, 452 00:26:55,680 --> 00:27:00,185 again, the usual old biases that exist and then you're investing in things 453 00:27:00,185 --> 00:27:02,525 that will absolutely make you money if that's the direction you want to go. 454 00:27:02,575 --> 00:27:05,865 But you'll also be doing extraordinary contributions to the world and that's 455 00:27:05,865 --> 00:27:08,184 got to be good and I feel that the next generation, that's what they 456 00:27:08,185 --> 00:27:09,594 want and what they're looking for. 457 00:27:09,594 --> 00:27:12,235 So my hope is I can create and help create and be a part of creating 458 00:27:12,655 --> 00:27:14,384 an ecosystem that delivers on that. 459 00:27:14,585 --> 00:27:15,345 I hope so too. 460 00:27:16,165 --> 00:27:21,635 You talk about companies growing here and values based and I couldn't agree more. 461 00:27:21,635 --> 00:27:24,175 Funny enough, I was saying I was from a financial services background. 462 00:27:24,175 --> 00:27:26,574 I'm now doing two days a week in a cancer vaccine company. 463 00:27:26,585 --> 00:27:30,544 So I am one of those people and it is much more fulfilling. 464 00:27:30,885 --> 00:27:33,245 Nothing against financial services for what it's worth. 465 00:27:33,830 --> 00:27:38,530 You talk about those companies and it's not all for money and you talked about 466 00:27:38,540 --> 00:27:43,369 the restraints of the reporters you asked, but the scale up capital part of the 467 00:27:43,369 --> 00:27:48,519 equation is meaning that sometimes our best companies, sadly, if they are really 468 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:54,659 successful, almost more so are likely to end up being bought, listed and not 469 00:27:54,699 --> 00:28:00,410 always, but sometimes subsequently moving some or all of their headquarters or 470 00:28:00,410 --> 00:28:03,430 their operations elsewhere, often America. 471 00:28:03,950 --> 00:28:11,090 So there is this sort of quandary of a missing segment here in the UK and I 472 00:28:11,090 --> 00:28:14,979 wanted to know what your interactions with people like Jeremy Hunt and obviously 473 00:28:14,980 --> 00:28:19,429 on the Mansion House Compact and the changes that might bring to that end of 474 00:28:19,429 --> 00:28:21,539 the ecosystem, what your view is on that? 475 00:28:21,539 --> 00:28:25,290 Yeah, no, it's a great, question and you know, we touched a little bit on 476 00:28:25,290 --> 00:28:27,620 this in the report, even though that was not the remit of the report, but 477 00:28:27,620 --> 00:28:32,280 we wanted to make some commentary about the downstream issues, because we see 478 00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:36,130 them and we see them at both a sort of ethical, moral level, if you like, 479 00:28:36,390 --> 00:28:39,009 because we feel, well, hold on a minute, you know, it's the taxpayers money, 480 00:28:39,009 --> 00:28:43,395 these are publicly funded universities, we've developed all this, we've then 481 00:28:43,405 --> 00:28:47,755 supported them to grow and be successful and then just when they're ready to 482 00:28:47,755 --> 00:28:52,315 really go big and really help drive things back, we just let them walk off 483 00:28:52,395 --> 00:28:54,575 into the sunset and there's no penalties. 484 00:28:54,835 --> 00:28:57,575 So we did discuss a little bit, you know, this wouldn't happen in America. 485 00:28:57,585 --> 00:29:00,235 If you left America, there'd be a tax penalty, there'd be some penalty. 486 00:29:00,595 --> 00:29:02,735 So again, these are things we've got to really think about in this country. 487 00:29:02,735 --> 00:29:06,215 Let's be bolder about the fact that, hold on a minute, we've got to hold on to you. 488 00:29:06,275 --> 00:29:07,625 So we've got to incentivise people to stay, that's the first thing. 489 00:29:09,195 --> 00:29:12,235 We've got to make it easier and better and more attractive to stay. 490 00:29:12,575 --> 00:29:16,085 We've also got to maybe think about, you know, like they do in 491 00:29:16,085 --> 00:29:19,625 America, maybe there's a penalty if you do decide to go and... 492 00:29:19,630 --> 00:29:22,889 Do you not worry that might disincentivise the most commercial people? 493 00:29:22,889 --> 00:29:25,365 It might do, but it happens in the States and it doesn't seem to and they stay. 494 00:29:25,365 --> 00:29:28,455 So again, I think we need to at least analyse what happens there, 495 00:29:28,455 --> 00:29:33,085 what happens here, where are their differences and let's not be unwilling 496 00:29:33,125 --> 00:29:36,035 and let's have a bit of humility to at least analyse what goes on there. 497 00:29:36,345 --> 00:29:39,055 Is that a causal factor for what drives there, and what would be 498 00:29:39,055 --> 00:29:40,175 the penalties of not doing that? 499 00:29:40,175 --> 00:29:43,110 I'm not saying that's my recommendation, I'm just saying it's interesting 500 00:29:43,110 --> 00:29:47,180 to observe that we, there is no, you know, problems with that. 501 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:49,830 Now having said all that, of course I can absolutely see why 502 00:29:49,830 --> 00:29:53,520 people will do it because they want access to a skilled workforce, 503 00:29:53,570 --> 00:29:55,630 they want easier planning, right? 504 00:29:55,820 --> 00:29:59,190 They've got access to a huge market that they can sell in and they've 505 00:29:59,190 --> 00:30:03,520 got access to capital and so, almost, you're forced to go and that was 506 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:04,740 sort of why we did put in the report. 507 00:30:04,750 --> 00:30:06,880 These are the things that aren't in my control. 508 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:08,270 I'm doing my bit. 509 00:30:08,620 --> 00:30:12,980 We are generating ideas and we're generating the talent and the skills, 510 00:30:13,630 --> 00:30:17,311 the next bit now is over to you and you've got to start to think about 511 00:30:17,311 --> 00:30:19,170 how do you incentivise people to stay. 512 00:30:19,330 --> 00:30:21,930 Incentivisation is always better than penalties, so I'm not saying I'm 513 00:30:21,930 --> 00:30:25,140 recommending you tax or whatever, you know, a carrot is better, but you know, 514 00:30:25,150 --> 00:30:26,040 it is interesting that there are... 515 00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:27,960 other countries do it differently, right? 516 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:29,230 So, let's do that. 517 00:30:29,230 --> 00:30:31,840 Now, it's interesting, as you know, Julia Hoggart, we quoted from the 518 00:30:32,190 --> 00:30:35,260 London Stock Exchange and obviously I've had many conversations with her, 519 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:39,010 and they've been doing some analyses of companies that did go off on lists 520 00:30:39,070 --> 00:30:42,710 on NASDAQ versus, you know, ones that list here and just, actually, what 521 00:30:42,710 --> 00:30:45,520 is the five year journey, and what are the pros and cons of doing that? 522 00:30:45,540 --> 00:30:47,360 It might be a short term gain, but a long term... 523 00:30:47,590 --> 00:30:48,340 not so much. 524 00:30:48,730 --> 00:30:52,999 So I think there's again, as ever, there's maybe some perceptual 525 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,640 interesting things to unpack there and we have to see where that lands. 526 00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,040 But there's no doubt there is recognition that we have to make the 527 00:30:59,050 --> 00:31:00,560 listing more attractive to stay here. 528 00:31:00,830 --> 00:31:04,835 So those are things that need to be sorted and I keep referring to sort of planning, 529 00:31:04,835 --> 00:31:08,515 but I wouldn't underestimate and this has been a touchstone now for many different 530 00:31:08,575 --> 00:31:09,935 aspects of our society at the moment. 531 00:31:09,935 --> 00:31:11,905 We're all talking about it and the different parties are 532 00:31:12,535 --> 00:31:15,275 recognising that this is a problem. 533 00:31:15,285 --> 00:31:18,125 We are, we're suffocating ourselves because we've got a very anti growth 534 00:31:18,135 --> 00:31:22,135 of a sort of philosophy, which I totally get because sometimes we've 535 00:31:22,135 --> 00:31:25,355 made a real hash of the way we've done buildings and plannings and 536 00:31:25,355 --> 00:31:29,655 developments, but we do have to breathe and grow as well and that can be good. 537 00:31:29,705 --> 00:31:32,735 It needn't always be bad and so there's a cultural thing that needs to be worked 538 00:31:32,735 --> 00:31:36,615 on because that's also a big factor why people will go is they just feel 539 00:31:36,615 --> 00:31:41,905 they can't, it's just too painful and too long and too slow to be able to 540 00:31:41,925 --> 00:31:46,345 develop the physical facilities that you need to grow the company at the scale. 541 00:31:46,925 --> 00:31:49,985 So, and of course, you know, we have had Brexit. 542 00:31:50,025 --> 00:31:52,455 I don't want to get into the politics of that, we are where we are, let's move on. 543 00:31:53,025 --> 00:31:55,905 But again, you've got to think about the market you're selling to and when 544 00:31:55,905 --> 00:32:00,695 that's now a different ease of selling to a large European market, America 545 00:32:00,695 --> 00:32:04,635 is, you know, it's a big market to sell in, and we're not a big country, right? 546 00:32:04,935 --> 00:32:08,115 So, again, those are factors that we have to own the decisions 547 00:32:08,115 --> 00:32:09,515 we have taken in this country. 548 00:32:09,875 --> 00:32:13,665 But if we want to, again, hold on to these companies that we're developing, 549 00:32:14,025 --> 00:32:18,325 we've got to think about all these different issues that are the factors 550 00:32:18,345 --> 00:32:21,655 that people will tell you are why they upped and upsticks and left. 551 00:32:22,070 --> 00:32:25,350 And again, to the point around domestic market, one of the criticisms that 552 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:29,429 I've heard levied in the UK is the NHS should be the first purchaser, 553 00:32:29,430 --> 00:32:31,850 the government should be the first purchaser, helping with proof of 554 00:32:31,850 --> 00:32:36,060 concept for our start up companies and so often those procurement exercises 555 00:32:36,060 --> 00:32:38,630 are just like wading through treacle. 556 00:32:38,690 --> 00:32:40,070 So I completely agree with that. 557 00:32:40,490 --> 00:32:44,370 I think there's a lot to be evolved there and Julia Hoggart is excellent. 558 00:32:44,615 --> 00:32:46,265 She's super, absolutely super person. 559 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:50,030 Actually I spoke to her, I mean this is down in the weeds but even things 560 00:32:50,030 --> 00:32:53,290 like MIFID2 which is very boring piece of financial regulation have... 561 00:32:53,995 --> 00:32:55,425 they are now going to be reversed. 562 00:32:55,435 --> 00:32:59,055 It was gold plated probably by us as part of EU regulation. 563 00:32:59,095 --> 00:33:03,375 We do now have an opportunity to roll that back and help with the depth of the 564 00:33:03,375 --> 00:33:07,515 research market, which again is impacting people's confidence in listening here. 565 00:33:07,875 --> 00:33:12,085 She absolutely gets it and she gets the pipeline and innovation. 566 00:33:12,095 --> 00:33:15,135 No, she really does and she, you know, as I say we've discussed, you know, 567 00:33:15,175 --> 00:33:19,855 several times this issue and I'm very confident in her absolute desire to get 568 00:33:19,855 --> 00:33:23,565 this right and to do the changes that's necessary, you know, we're all part of 569 00:33:24,135 --> 00:33:27,715 this pipeline and we've all got to do our bit well and so yeah, over to them. 570 00:33:28,630 --> 00:33:32,750 And so we're talking about Julia, I'm talking to you, I'm here hosting this 571 00:33:32,790 --> 00:33:37,420 and yet it was identified and you've mentioned it a few times that women, 572 00:33:37,670 --> 00:33:44,100 partly to do with structural difficulties of the inference is childcare outside of 573 00:33:44,130 --> 00:33:48,230 working hours, fewer women necessarily stepping into the ring at all, but the 574 00:33:48,230 --> 00:33:55,520 report also alluded to TTOs needing more convincing and I was wondering A, if you 575 00:33:55,520 --> 00:34:00,810 could illuminate a little bit more on what came out around that and B, what maybe 576 00:34:00,810 --> 00:34:05,230 you're doing to help educate, because it does seem to me, through work I've done, 577 00:34:05,260 --> 00:34:09,900 the conversations I have, the industries that I've been in, that women's leadership 578 00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:15,410 qualities, unless they fit a more masculine mold, are sometimes overlooked 579 00:34:15,470 --> 00:34:18,390 and we need to do a big educational shift. 580 00:34:18,390 --> 00:34:20,590 Yeah, absolutely and I was... 581 00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:22,230 this was something new to me. 582 00:34:22,230 --> 00:34:25,220 So in doing the report, I had obviously access to other types of 583 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:27,010 reviews and reports that were done. 584 00:34:27,010 --> 00:34:29,680 Actually one interesting was ongoing at the time coming 585 00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:30,660 out of our business school. 586 00:34:30,980 --> 00:34:34,740 So a person doing their PhD on the gender gap and Thomas 587 00:34:34,750 --> 00:34:35,730 Hellerman's done other reports. 588 00:34:35,750 --> 00:34:39,120 So I was privy then for the first time to just the data and the 589 00:34:39,130 --> 00:34:40,940 stats and my jaw was on the floor. 590 00:34:41,350 --> 00:34:48,305 I did not realise it was this bad and it did, as I say, the best I could use is 591 00:34:48,305 --> 00:34:52,045 that it felt like, wow, this is where we were in the academic sector 25 years ago. 592 00:34:52,515 --> 00:34:55,695 That's, you know, we're just glass ceiling, no women getting through, 593 00:34:55,975 --> 00:34:59,625 etc., and what a waste of talent, you know, that you're not using. 594 00:35:00,615 --> 00:35:04,215 So then, you know, in the brief period I was doing the report, sort of my 595 00:35:04,215 --> 00:35:09,535 diagnosis that's always data informed and evidence based was, of course there's 596 00:35:09,575 --> 00:35:13,355 the usual pressures that on top of already trying to just keep going as a 597 00:35:13,355 --> 00:35:17,745 successful academic, whilst simultaneously having a career, you know, other 598 00:35:17,755 --> 00:35:22,075 responsibilities around care, that's just one extra thing that just has to wait. 599 00:35:22,405 --> 00:35:25,505 You know, there's a reason I'm only now actually probably discussing spinning 600 00:35:25,505 --> 00:35:29,835 out a company in my own right, because it just was not possible to add that onto... 601 00:35:30,015 --> 00:35:31,780 And that's typical for women, that it will be later. 602 00:35:31,825 --> 00:35:34,595 A bit later, exactly right, because there just was no way 603 00:35:34,595 --> 00:35:35,775 I had bandwidth to do that. 604 00:35:36,115 --> 00:35:39,370 There's also some evidence that would suggest and this is not just in Britain, 605 00:35:39,380 --> 00:35:43,020 this is sort of global data, that women are more prone to want to spin out 606 00:35:43,050 --> 00:35:46,340 companies of a more social enterprise type nature, they're not going to be 607 00:35:46,340 --> 00:35:50,160 so commercially profitable and that's just less attractive to investors, 608 00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:54,140 particularly the VC model of investment, unless there's women investors and 609 00:35:54,140 --> 00:35:55,620 then they tend to want to do that. 610 00:35:55,620 --> 00:35:57,624 So there's some very interesting things there and then there's all the usual, 611 00:35:57,624 --> 00:36:01,370 like if a woman's the founder then it's less invested, if she's just on the 612 00:36:01,370 --> 00:36:04,480 panel but not the investor, they'll get more, all that sort of stuff going 613 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:06,660 on, which is all usual implicit biases. 614 00:36:06,890 --> 00:36:09,210 But there's a little bit that could probably be explained just on some 615 00:36:09,220 --> 00:36:12,800 facts that women tend to want to produce companies of a different nature. 616 00:36:13,395 --> 00:36:16,465 There's the timing thing, but then there is just the implicit biases. 617 00:36:16,475 --> 00:36:20,335 Now that requires just education and facts and good examples of women. 618 00:36:20,335 --> 00:36:23,525 So things that we've been doing actually for the past five years is running a 619 00:36:23,525 --> 00:36:27,605 program called IDEA, Improving Diversity in Entrepreneurship and we've had lead 620 00:36:27,605 --> 00:36:32,270 champions of some of our women founders who've been terrifically successful, who 621 00:36:32,270 --> 00:36:36,300 were sort of early and then quite seasoned researchers, and then them running 622 00:36:36,300 --> 00:36:39,890 workshops, running panel discussions, exciting and inspiring the next generation 623 00:36:39,890 --> 00:36:42,770 of women, so that they can see, because visibility, I've learned that as a 624 00:36:42,770 --> 00:36:46,730 woman myself in a leadership roles, is that you underestimate as a woman, you 625 00:36:46,730 --> 00:36:50,550 know, it took me till quite late in my career to realise it matters, Just the 626 00:36:50,550 --> 00:36:54,630 visibility of me being a woman in that role, actually, was all I needed to do. 627 00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:57,950 It just made such a difference to a sense of empowerment that, you know, 628 00:36:57,950 --> 00:37:01,450 you could do it and it was possible to, you know, be head of a department and 629 00:37:01,450 --> 00:37:05,570 have a family and you know, run a lab that was doing well and all those things 630 00:37:05,750 --> 00:37:07,400 and you do underestimate as a woman. 631 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:13,030 So we've been working hard to recognise that we need to improve the representation 632 00:37:13,510 --> 00:37:18,340 in this space to use the champions as great role models, great visible role 633 00:37:18,340 --> 00:37:23,080 models and then to be really active about supporting and encouraging and 634 00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:25,620 then, you know, as I say in the report by flagging it there, you know, it 635 00:37:25,620 --> 00:37:29,570 was very deliberate for me to want to put that in, you know and Andrew. 636 00:37:30,010 --> 00:37:33,540 So it's there and it's in black and white and then just next time there's a 637 00:37:33,570 --> 00:37:36,830 decision at a maybe a board meeting for VC and their sort of thing they might 638 00:37:36,830 --> 00:37:40,400 just remember oh yeah maybe I am being biased here and maybe I should invest in 639 00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:44,370 her as opposed to somebody else or give them a bit more because it's not just 640 00:37:44,370 --> 00:37:48,260 investing in the binary decision it's also how much so again significantly less 641 00:37:48,260 --> 00:37:53,650 money being given so it's, as ever there's never one unitary reason there's always 642 00:37:53,650 --> 00:37:58,710 a set of that you need to understand and diagnose and then you need to start to 643 00:37:58,720 --> 00:38:03,370 think about how do you start to address them and again, we're trying to do our bit 644 00:38:03,530 --> 00:38:07,940 in that way as an example and then we'll see what the rest of the community does. 645 00:38:08,055 --> 00:38:10,895 Well, the government through the British Business Bank have now got the 646 00:38:10,895 --> 00:38:15,065 Women's Task Force, which is absolutely pointed at this subject matter and I'm 647 00:38:15,095 --> 00:38:18,415 very passionate about also, so it does sound like they're picking up that 648 00:38:18,415 --> 00:38:20,475 mantle and in really positive ways. 649 00:38:20,485 --> 00:38:22,575 So that's really exciting. 650 00:38:22,690 --> 00:38:25,170 It is exciting because you're just losing, you're losing 651 00:38:25,170 --> 00:38:26,645 money, you're just losing talent. 652 00:38:26,955 --> 00:38:30,055 You know, I see if you sort of digress, but you know, many of the colleges, you 653 00:38:30,055 --> 00:38:34,645 know, were celebrating over the past few years, 40 years of women being admitted. 654 00:38:34,695 --> 00:38:38,775 Okay, I was at Merton College was my undergraduate and graduate college, I was 655 00:38:38,785 --> 00:38:41,985 very fortunate to be its warden, its head for a few years before I took on the vice 656 00:38:41,985 --> 00:38:45,395 chancellor role and we too celebrated our 40 years of women, I was the fifth 657 00:38:45,395 --> 00:38:49,465 year women were there and what struck me, and this is, You know, sounds like I'm 658 00:38:49,465 --> 00:38:52,735 going way off piste here, but there's a point here, is that when we started to 659 00:38:52,735 --> 00:38:56,325 celebrate, you know, just a sample of our women over those four decades from each 660 00:38:56,325 --> 00:39:01,365 of the decades, it was just extraordinary, the things that they'd gone on and become 661 00:39:01,445 --> 00:39:06,035 and done and you couldn't help but look at it and just say, wow, look what they've 662 00:39:06,035 --> 00:39:09,305 achieved in just 40 years of having an opportunity of that transformation that 663 00:39:09,305 --> 00:39:14,190 education brings and what we've missed by not having that happening more early, 664 00:39:14,290 --> 00:39:18,200 you're just missing, you're just wasting talent and that's a great tragedy, 665 00:39:18,550 --> 00:39:20,410 so you know, it's a good investment. 666 00:39:20,490 --> 00:39:21,270 Absolutely. 667 00:39:21,430 --> 00:39:25,430 I have one final question, I wanted to speak to, you alluded to the kind 668 00:39:25,430 --> 00:39:28,600 of the endowments in America, you didn't allude, you explicitly spoke 669 00:39:28,610 --> 00:39:31,300 about them and in the report it talks about them and the difference. 670 00:39:31,900 --> 00:39:37,180 In Oxford, it's further potentially exacerbated by the college system 671 00:39:37,210 --> 00:39:41,780 and the alum networks being held within individual colleges. 672 00:39:42,050 --> 00:39:45,920 Is that something that, I appreciate it's pretty difficult to get people to 673 00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:51,210 open up those lists, but in conversations I've had, it seems to me that giving to 674 00:39:51,210 --> 00:39:55,080 your college and potentially giving to innovation, to science and technology, 675 00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:56,990 to departments, they're quite separate. 676 00:39:57,580 --> 00:40:01,610 Is it something that you have plans to try and open up more or 677 00:40:01,610 --> 00:40:03,200 is it just completely intractable? 678 00:40:03,950 --> 00:40:07,010 No, it's another myth actually and I can say that, you know, hand on 679 00:40:07,010 --> 00:40:09,460 heart, I've run a college, I've run a department, I've on both sides. 680 00:40:09,460 --> 00:40:10,110 Well, I'm pleased. 681 00:40:10,110 --> 00:40:12,760 There's a lot of, you know, I'm an alum, so I get approached. 682 00:40:12,810 --> 00:40:16,110 There's a lot more talk and rhetoric around, oh, it's a big 683 00:40:16,380 --> 00:40:17,570 competition between the two. 684 00:40:17,590 --> 00:40:23,000 It really isn't because the reality is people give to the colleges because 685 00:40:23,090 --> 00:40:26,340 it's your family, it's your home and the college's needs are quite different and 686 00:40:26,340 --> 00:40:29,560 circumscribed and at the end of the day, everything the colleges are doing is core 687 00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:31,480 university, it's core business, right? 688 00:40:31,790 --> 00:40:36,450 We're all doing the best teaching that we can to the most outstanding students 689 00:40:36,450 --> 00:40:39,310 that we can find and we're trying to do the most impactful research with 690 00:40:39,310 --> 00:40:41,050 the best academics after delivering it. 691 00:40:41,390 --> 00:40:45,110 That's it, that's our core business to make the world a better place, right? 692 00:40:45,150 --> 00:40:49,477 That's what we do and that's happening everywhere and so I don't care where 693 00:40:49,477 --> 00:40:52,717 the money goes because it's all supporting core business and the 694 00:40:52,717 --> 00:40:56,047 truth is alumni database is one, it's one big shared database anyway and 695 00:40:56,047 --> 00:40:59,427 it has been for years and years, so everybody buys into one big database, 696 00:40:59,467 --> 00:41:00,767 it's not like they're secret lists. 697 00:41:00,917 --> 00:41:02,597 That is literally not what one hears. 698 00:41:02,647 --> 00:41:05,687 You know, people shouldn't listen to what they read in the 699 00:41:05,687 --> 00:41:07,027 press or sort of the hearsay. 700 00:41:07,267 --> 00:41:10,687 So the truth is, for years and years, we have a large big database where 701 00:41:10,687 --> 00:41:13,217 everybody signs up because it's more efficient to communicate by email to 702 00:41:13,217 --> 00:41:16,707 everybody in one big bit and colleges can then have, they access it and run 703 00:41:16,917 --> 00:41:19,727 theirs if they're doing bespoke stuff, or if we need to communicate to everybody 704 00:41:19,727 --> 00:41:23,307 in one fell swoop, we can and everybody sort of signs up to that model, right? 705 00:41:23,767 --> 00:41:30,272 The alumni that tend to give will give to the colleges for, you know, because 706 00:41:30,272 --> 00:41:33,912 it's your home and your family and then when you want to give to the university, 707 00:41:33,932 --> 00:41:36,512 it's for something quite different and separate that the college can't do. 708 00:41:36,852 --> 00:41:40,272 So often it's for a major project or a new big initiative around a large 709 00:41:40,272 --> 00:41:44,192 building and the honest answer is most of the big gifts don't come from alum. 710 00:41:44,562 --> 00:41:47,152 So if you look at our last campaign that we ran and we're going to launch 711 00:41:47,152 --> 00:41:51,262 one at the end of this year, we do one every sort of 15-20 years, most of the 712 00:41:51,272 --> 00:41:54,942 money that came for the large gifts for the university projects, the largest 713 00:41:54,942 --> 00:41:56,362 percentage of it is from non alum. 714 00:41:56,682 --> 00:42:00,452 So it's people who are extraordinarily generous and very wealthy, and they 715 00:42:00,452 --> 00:42:02,902 want to buy into excellence and sustain excellence and they want to 716 00:42:02,902 --> 00:42:07,317 buy into what is going to make great impact and you know, that's the way. 717 00:42:07,317 --> 00:42:11,067 So there's no competition, you know, rarely you might get something where 718 00:42:11,087 --> 00:42:15,407 maybe somebody's just at the moment of wanting to get a person to support 719 00:42:15,437 --> 00:42:19,167 a, you know, leaking roof or something in your, you know, 13th century grade 720 00:42:19,167 --> 00:42:22,287 one listed building and then maybe the university's indirectly been talking 721 00:42:22,297 --> 00:42:25,327 about something else, but it gets resolved because you don't talk to an 722 00:42:25,327 --> 00:42:29,132 alum about a gift unless you've cleared it with the college and the college is 723 00:42:29,142 --> 00:42:32,142 99 percent of the time will say that's absolutely fine, go ahead and have a chat. 724 00:42:32,332 --> 00:42:35,402 I never said no once if I was approached for one of my alums to 725 00:42:35,402 --> 00:42:36,742 have a conversation about something. 726 00:42:37,052 --> 00:42:41,622 So it works far more, well one, it just is very harmonious because there's 727 00:42:41,622 --> 00:42:45,502 actually not much competition, we have complete line of sight on all sides. 728 00:42:45,922 --> 00:42:47,962 At the end of the day, everything that comes in is very welcome because 729 00:42:47,962 --> 00:42:52,072 it's all support and core business and most of the big university projects 730 00:42:52,132 --> 00:42:53,822 anyway are supported by none of them. 731 00:42:54,117 --> 00:42:56,497 That's super interesting and of course, you know, corroborated by 732 00:42:56,497 --> 00:42:59,267 what's about to happen with the really exciting Ellison Institute. 733 00:42:59,267 --> 00:42:59,687 Yeah, exactly. 734 00:42:59,752 --> 00:43:02,082 I mean, Ellison is, you know, got this amazing standalone institute. 735 00:43:02,112 --> 00:43:05,722 Obviously, our wonderful professor of medicine, John is retired from that 736 00:43:05,722 --> 00:43:10,072 post and will be the first president, we're doing already amazing, exciting 737 00:43:10,072 --> 00:43:11,062 collaborative projects with them. 738 00:43:11,082 --> 00:43:15,912 It's going to be a phenomenal component of this ecosystem, absolutely amazing. 739 00:43:15,912 --> 00:43:18,542 Schwarzman supported the new big center for the humanities. 740 00:43:18,842 --> 00:43:21,952 So that's a bold statement about the importance of supporting the humanities 741 00:43:21,952 --> 00:43:26,382 at a time when, you know, they're under pressure and struggling in universities. 742 00:43:26,382 --> 00:43:28,872 We're going out there and saying, not on our watch, we will look after these 743 00:43:28,882 --> 00:43:33,442 subject areas because it tells you why you are you and why society is society. 744 00:43:33,522 --> 00:43:35,992 It tells us about ourselves and that's such an important thing to do. 745 00:43:36,282 --> 00:43:39,282 So we're making a bold statement there, generously supported by 746 00:43:39,312 --> 00:43:41,912 again, a person that wants to buy into and support excellence 747 00:43:41,922 --> 00:43:43,262 in an area that they care about. 748 00:43:43,792 --> 00:43:46,102 So yeah, so you know, there's always these anecdotes. 749 00:43:46,272 --> 00:43:48,822 So I'm very pleased to be able to rectify that, now there's one big database 750 00:43:48,822 --> 00:43:50,542 and we all work quite well together. 751 00:43:50,887 --> 00:43:53,807 And I think that's a great note to finish on is just that point of buying 752 00:43:53,807 --> 00:43:56,627 into excellence, which I think is what it's all about and I'm going 753 00:43:56,627 --> 00:43:59,847 to say thank you so much Irene, it's been an absolute pleasure. 754 00:44:00,827 --> 00:44:03,727 Thanks for listening to this episode of Oxford + presented by 755 00:44:03,737 --> 00:44:07,027 me, Susannah de Jager if you want to stay up to date with all things 756 00:44:07,027 --> 00:44:11,827 Oxford +, please visit our website, oxfordplus.co.uk and sign up to our 757 00:44:11,827 --> 00:44:13,707 newsletter so you never miss an update. 758 00:44:14,317 --> 00:44:17,497 Oxford + was made in partnership with Mishcon de Reya and is produced 759 00:44:17,497 --> 00:44:19,147 and edited by Story Ninety Four.