1 00:00:00,602 --> 00:00:03,185 (upbeat music) 2 00:00:04,860 --> 00:00:06,120 - Welcome to "The Hot Dish", 3 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:08,640 comfort food for Middle America. 4 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:10,050 I'm Heidi Heitkamp. 5 00:00:10,050 --> 00:00:12,270 My brother, Joel, is on vacation, 6 00:00:12,270 --> 00:00:13,800 actually his second honeymoon. 7 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:15,540 He didn't have a first honeymoon 8 00:00:15,540 --> 00:00:18,630 but he's on a cruise and I know it's driving him crazy 9 00:00:18,630 --> 00:00:22,920 because he needs the constant communication skills. 10 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:25,410 And so hopefully, he'll come back rested. 11 00:00:25,410 --> 00:00:29,280 But I have a very special guest host today, 12 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:31,020 Josh Boschee. 13 00:00:31,020 --> 00:00:33,120 He's a State Representative in North Dakota, 14 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:36,660 representing District 44 in North Fargo, 15 00:00:36,660 --> 00:00:40,920 one of the few Democrats left in the State Legislature. 16 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:44,700 His first election to the State House was 2012. 17 00:00:44,700 --> 00:00:47,070 We ran those campaigns together, Josh. 18 00:00:47,070 --> 00:00:48,930 That was the year I was elected to the Senate 19 00:00:48,930 --> 00:00:50,970 and a pretty good year for Democrats. 20 00:00:50,970 --> 00:00:52,303 Unfortunately, we haven't had 21 00:00:52,303 --> 00:00:55,080 a whole lot of good years since then, 22 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:58,440 but we've been working together for many years. 23 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:01,650 And Josh, you are just such a talent. 24 00:01:01,650 --> 00:01:04,290 We're so grateful that you're in the legislature, 25 00:01:04,290 --> 00:01:06,360 and wanna spend some time today 26 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:10,860 talking about the challenges that folks like you face 27 00:01:10,860 --> 00:01:12,870 representing your district 28 00:01:12,870 --> 00:01:15,330 in a very, very conservative legislature. 29 00:01:15,330 --> 00:01:16,800 So, welcome. 30 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:18,180 - Thanks Heidi, it's great to be here. 31 00:01:18,180 --> 00:01:19,320 You know, longtime listener, 32 00:01:19,320 --> 00:01:20,850 first time co-host with you 33 00:01:20,850 --> 00:01:21,990 for "Hot Dish" here. 34 00:01:21,990 --> 00:01:24,720 So, you know those miles between Bismarck and Fargo, 35 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:26,820 there's a lot of time to catch up on podcasts, 36 00:01:26,820 --> 00:01:28,680 and this is one of 'em that I always tune into. 37 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:29,520 - Amen. 38 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:31,680 We have a lot going on in today's episode. 39 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:33,780 I'll be interviewing two professors 40 00:01:33,780 --> 00:01:36,787 from Colby College in Maine about their latest book, 41 00:01:36,787 --> 00:01:37,950 "The Rural Voter: 42 00:01:37,950 --> 00:01:41,880 The Politics of Place and the Disuniting of America." 43 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:45,630 I am really looking forward to that discussion. 44 00:01:45,630 --> 00:01:48,000 Then Josh and I will dig into some of the issues 45 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:50,130 rural voters care the most about. 46 00:01:50,130 --> 00:01:52,200 One of those issues is childcare, 47 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:53,760 and we're gonna start this episode 48 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:56,670 by listening to Minnesota State Senator 49 00:01:56,670 --> 00:02:00,360 and former member of my staff when I served in the Senate 50 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:03,420 and former North Dakotan, Grant Hauschild. 51 00:02:03,420 --> 00:02:05,730 He'll explain his proposed legislation, 52 00:02:05,730 --> 00:02:08,250 the Great Start Affordability Act, 53 00:02:08,250 --> 00:02:10,350 which will help parents cover the cost 54 00:02:10,350 --> 00:02:13,530 of childcare without making them pay upfront 55 00:02:13,530 --> 00:02:16,841 and then wait for reimbursements or tax credits. 56 00:02:16,841 --> 00:02:19,424 (lively music) 57 00:02:21,990 --> 00:02:24,840 - The current generation of young people are 58 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:26,310 struggling with the weight 59 00:02:26,310 --> 00:02:29,010 of all of the different costs on them. 60 00:02:29,010 --> 00:02:32,190 So whether it's the increase in housing interest rates, 61 00:02:32,190 --> 00:02:35,100 the student loan burden that they're facing, 62 00:02:35,100 --> 00:02:37,620 the regular costs in their daily lives, 63 00:02:37,620 --> 00:02:41,640 when they are considering whether or not to start a family, 64 00:02:41,640 --> 00:02:45,090 the costs of childcare have become so insurmountable 65 00:02:45,090 --> 00:02:47,490 that many people in my generation have told me 66 00:02:47,490 --> 00:02:50,400 they're either gonna forego having children in general, 67 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:53,310 or they're going to delay for, 68 00:02:53,310 --> 00:02:56,070 long past when they hoped to have children. 69 00:02:56,070 --> 00:02:57,690 This, as you can imagine, 70 00:02:57,690 --> 00:03:01,770 has a huge impact on our communities. 71 00:03:01,770 --> 00:03:03,390 What I'm proposing to address 72 00:03:03,390 --> 00:03:06,630 the childcare affordability crisis is 73 00:03:06,630 --> 00:03:09,690 the Great Start Childcare Affordability Program. 74 00:03:09,690 --> 00:03:11,880 Looking at a recommendation that came 75 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:14,370 from the US Department of Health and Human Services 76 00:03:14,370 --> 00:03:16,740 that said no family should have to spend 77 00:03:16,740 --> 00:03:20,250 more than 7% of their income on childcare, 78 00:03:20,250 --> 00:03:21,840 what this bill would do is 79 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:25,620 provide a subsidy directly to childcare centers 80 00:03:25,620 --> 00:03:27,990 to then pass on those savings 81 00:03:27,990 --> 00:03:31,080 in a line item on the bill for parents. 82 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:35,490 It would go up to 150% of the median income in Minnesota, 83 00:03:35,490 --> 00:03:39,810 so anywhere from 50,000 to $175,000 84 00:03:39,810 --> 00:03:42,540 in income for a family of four, 85 00:03:42,540 --> 00:03:46,800 and it would be based on a child slot at a childcare center. 86 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:49,740 So, a family would apply for this program, 87 00:03:49,740 --> 00:03:51,210 get their income verification 88 00:03:51,210 --> 00:03:52,650 through the Department of Revenue, 89 00:03:52,650 --> 00:03:55,740 then that subsidy would be provided to the childcare center. 90 00:03:55,740 --> 00:03:58,110 Then when they get their bill on a monthly basis, 91 00:03:58,110 --> 00:04:00,630 they would see how much they received in savings 92 00:04:00,630 --> 00:04:02,640 from that childcare center through the subsidy. 93 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:04,800 So it's really kind of an easy way 94 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:06,960 to pass on the savings to families, 95 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:08,940 but also kind of create some certainty 96 00:04:08,940 --> 00:04:10,650 for our childcare centers 97 00:04:10,650 --> 00:04:13,500 who are trying to operate on very slim margins. 98 00:04:13,500 --> 00:04:16,950 Why we're giving the funding to a childcare center 99 00:04:16,950 --> 00:04:20,130 rather than, say, directly to a family 100 00:04:20,130 --> 00:04:24,600 is because for a lot of low to middle income families, 101 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:26,550 you're really not solving the problem 102 00:04:26,550 --> 00:04:29,220 by giving them a retroactive tax credit. 103 00:04:29,220 --> 00:04:30,300 What you're doing is saying, 104 00:04:30,300 --> 00:04:31,770 hey, front these costs, 105 00:04:31,770 --> 00:04:33,630 just like you are on everything else, 106 00:04:33,630 --> 00:04:37,410 and eventually you'll see some tax savings at filing time. 107 00:04:37,410 --> 00:04:40,080 That doesn't get to the core of the challenge. 108 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:41,250 What providing the money 109 00:04:41,250 --> 00:04:43,740 to the childcare centers directly does is 110 00:04:43,740 --> 00:04:46,440 it makes it so that those childcare centers 111 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:49,260 see that funding, create sustainability, 112 00:04:49,260 --> 00:04:50,610 and then have a requirement 113 00:04:50,610 --> 00:04:53,040 to pass on those savings on a line item 114 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:55,680 on the bill for the parent. 115 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:58,890 So the parents will see those savings every single month 116 00:04:58,890 --> 00:05:01,320 as they submit for the program. 117 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:04,290 So the Great Start Childcare Affordability Bill 118 00:05:04,290 --> 00:05:07,410 not only provides an opportunity 119 00:05:07,410 --> 00:05:09,120 for our families to afford childcare 120 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:10,380 in our rural communities, 121 00:05:10,380 --> 00:05:14,970 but it also creates a certainty to childcare centers looking 122 00:05:14,970 --> 00:05:17,400 to open up in our rural communities to say 123 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:19,800 hey, the state is bought in on this challenge. 124 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:22,470 The state is going to provide a subsidy 125 00:05:22,470 --> 00:05:23,700 to your childcare center 126 00:05:23,700 --> 00:05:25,500 based on the number of children you can get 127 00:05:25,500 --> 00:05:26,700 into your program, 128 00:05:26,700 --> 00:05:28,830 and we're gonna guarantee that subsidy 129 00:05:28,830 --> 00:05:31,440 and you can pass on that savings to the family. 130 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:33,600 So it really just helps create 131 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:35,280 certainty in our rural communities 132 00:05:35,280 --> 00:05:37,950 to help get more childcare centers up and operating 133 00:05:37,950 --> 00:05:39,450 in those communities. 134 00:05:39,450 --> 00:05:43,620 The support for the Great Start Childcare Affordability Bill 135 00:05:43,620 --> 00:05:44,970 has been tremendous. 136 00:05:44,970 --> 00:05:47,640 In fact, stakeholders across the spectrum 137 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:49,410 for early education, 138 00:05:49,410 --> 00:05:51,780 for pre-K advocates, 139 00:05:51,780 --> 00:05:55,710 childcare centers, family-owned childcare across the board, 140 00:05:55,710 --> 00:05:58,170 they've really all come together to support 141 00:05:58,170 --> 00:06:01,620 this childcare affordability opportunity. 142 00:06:01,620 --> 00:06:02,640 The other great thing is 143 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:05,160 that I think we have bipartisan support. 144 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:08,580 We just heard the bill in the Education Policy Committee, 145 00:06:08,580 --> 00:06:09,990 which I'm a member of, 146 00:06:09,990 --> 00:06:13,110 and two Republican senators gave 147 00:06:13,110 --> 00:06:17,520 what seemingly felt like support to the general idea. 148 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:19,230 I think what you're going to see is 149 00:06:19,230 --> 00:06:20,250 once we start talking 150 00:06:20,250 --> 00:06:22,380 about the overall cost for the program, 151 00:06:22,380 --> 00:06:24,840 that's when you might get into some more nuance. 152 00:06:24,840 --> 00:06:26,160 But at the end of the day, 153 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:27,810 the general idea that we need to do 154 00:06:27,810 --> 00:06:30,150 something about childcare affordability is 155 00:06:30,150 --> 00:06:32,340 on top of mind for many Minnesotans, 156 00:06:32,340 --> 00:06:34,173 regardless of party or background. 157 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:37,290 The place where we would get the funding 158 00:06:37,290 --> 00:06:39,990 for the Great Start Childcare Affordability Bill is 159 00:06:39,990 --> 00:06:43,650 honestly from the great economy that we have in Minnesota. 160 00:06:43,650 --> 00:06:46,560 We just had a budget forecast that came out, 161 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:49,500 and that forecast showed us that we have 162 00:06:49,500 --> 00:06:54,500 over $3 billion in surplus for the State of Minnesota. 163 00:06:55,110 --> 00:06:56,280 And that is, again, 164 00:06:56,280 --> 00:06:58,800 because I think of the investments that we've been making 165 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:01,200 in Minnesota to help support families, 166 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:02,220 to help make sure we're making 167 00:07:02,220 --> 00:07:04,020 the infrastructure investments we need 168 00:07:04,020 --> 00:07:05,910 to have a strong economy. 169 00:07:05,910 --> 00:07:08,970 And then Minnesota is one of the most diversified economies 170 00:07:08,970 --> 00:07:09,803 in the country. 171 00:07:09,803 --> 00:07:12,510 We have mining and timber and agriculture. 172 00:07:12,510 --> 00:07:16,290 We also have healthcare and medical device companies. 173 00:07:16,290 --> 00:07:18,930 We have some of the most Fortune 500 companies 174 00:07:18,930 --> 00:07:20,490 of any state in the country 175 00:07:20,490 --> 00:07:21,900 headquartered right here in Minnesota 176 00:07:21,900 --> 00:07:23,010 that were founded here, 177 00:07:23,010 --> 00:07:23,850 and we have a high, 178 00:07:23,850 --> 00:07:26,490 a strong higher education corridor. 179 00:07:26,490 --> 00:07:28,650 So overall, we have a really strong economy 180 00:07:28,650 --> 00:07:30,060 that's producing surpluses. 181 00:07:30,060 --> 00:07:32,910 Let's reinvest that money back into our families, 182 00:07:32,910 --> 00:07:34,260 back into our rural communities, 183 00:07:34,260 --> 00:07:35,760 and make sure that they're supported 184 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:37,376 so they can continue to be vibrant. 185 00:07:37,376 --> 00:07:39,959 (lively music) 186 00:07:43,470 --> 00:07:44,520 - My guests today are 187 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:46,507 the authors of a new book called 188 00:07:46,507 --> 00:07:47,880 "The Rural Voter: 189 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:51,750 The Politics of Place and Disuniting of America." 190 00:07:51,750 --> 00:07:55,350 Please welcome to the podcast Professors Daniel Shea 191 00:07:55,350 --> 00:07:58,440 and Nicholas Jacobs from Colby College, 192 00:07:58,440 --> 00:07:59,730 which I know where that is 193 00:07:59,730 --> 00:08:02,610 because I had a young student who was an intern 194 00:08:02,610 --> 00:08:04,890 when I was in the Attorney General's Office 195 00:08:04,890 --> 00:08:07,650 who phoned her way to Colby College all the way to Maine. 196 00:08:07,650 --> 00:08:10,920 So I wanna just start out by giving you guys a chance 197 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:13,440 to say hello, Nick and Dan, 198 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:15,210 and then we'll get into the questions, 199 00:08:15,210 --> 00:08:17,013 of which I have many. 200 00:08:18,030 --> 00:08:20,130 - Well, thank you so much for the opportunity 201 00:08:20,130 --> 00:08:22,890 to share our work and contribute 202 00:08:22,890 --> 00:08:25,950 to the goals of One Country, 203 00:08:25,950 --> 00:08:28,650 goals that we find ample evidence and support of 204 00:08:28,650 --> 00:08:29,730 throughout the book. 205 00:08:29,730 --> 00:08:30,870 - Yes, thank you, Senator. 206 00:08:30,870 --> 00:08:32,400 It's an honor to be with you. 207 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:33,900 You're doing some important work 208 00:08:33,900 --> 00:08:36,030 and we're looking forward to our conversation. 209 00:08:36,030 --> 00:08:38,670 - Let's start off by talking about 210 00:08:38,670 --> 00:08:42,060 how you went about writing this book. 211 00:08:42,060 --> 00:08:43,410 I think you, 212 00:08:43,410 --> 00:08:46,650 as well as those of us at One Country, 213 00:08:46,650 --> 00:08:49,350 see a lot of people who profess to be an expert 214 00:08:49,350 --> 00:08:51,930 on what rural Americans believe 215 00:08:51,930 --> 00:08:54,930 and who they are, and you know, kind of, you know, 216 00:08:54,930 --> 00:08:56,760 their cultural values. 217 00:08:56,760 --> 00:09:00,180 You two, instead of just simply opining 218 00:09:00,180 --> 00:09:01,440 and writing a book, 219 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:03,390 you actually did some research. 220 00:09:03,390 --> 00:09:07,110 So let's actually talk about what your methodology was 221 00:09:07,110 --> 00:09:09,090 and what you discovered. 222 00:09:09,090 --> 00:09:09,960 What surprised you? 223 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:11,610 What didn't surprise you? 224 00:09:11,610 --> 00:09:13,920 And what should folks who are listening 225 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:17,220 to this podcast know about your research? 226 00:09:17,220 --> 00:09:18,930 - Well, thanks for that question. 227 00:09:18,930 --> 00:09:21,600 There are a lot of good books out there. 228 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:23,940 There are a lot of memoirs, 229 00:09:23,940 --> 00:09:26,160 a lot of case studies that are important. 230 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:28,740 They've added to our understanding. 231 00:09:28,740 --> 00:09:31,650 What Nick and I wanted to do was 232 00:09:31,650 --> 00:09:35,370 to narrow in on an empirical examination, 233 00:09:35,370 --> 00:09:37,651 a fact-based, objective analysis 234 00:09:37,651 --> 00:09:40,080 of what's happening out there. 235 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:42,420 So we put together two data sets, 236 00:09:42,420 --> 00:09:45,090 I think are probably the largest data sets 237 00:09:45,090 --> 00:09:47,880 in the study of rural politics maybe ever created. 238 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:51,150 The first is a, an election-centered data set. 239 00:09:51,150 --> 00:09:53,310 We go to the county level 240 00:09:53,310 --> 00:09:55,350 all the way back to 1800, 241 00:09:55,350 --> 00:09:57,000 every county across the nation, 242 00:09:57,000 --> 00:09:58,350 all the way through. 243 00:09:58,350 --> 00:10:01,492 And by doing that, we're able to see the points 244 00:10:01,492 --> 00:10:04,830 where rural voters acted a bit different. 245 00:10:04,830 --> 00:10:08,490 We can see this dramatic change beginning in the 1980s, 246 00:10:08,490 --> 00:10:10,230 maybe we can talk about. 247 00:10:10,230 --> 00:10:11,190 And on top of that, 248 00:10:11,190 --> 00:10:14,100 to get attitudes and opinions of rural voters, 249 00:10:14,100 --> 00:10:15,840 we did massive surveys. 250 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:18,030 We did three waves of surveys, 251 00:10:18,030 --> 00:10:20,720 adding up to 14,000 Americans, 252 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:24,060 10,000 of which are rural. 253 00:10:24,060 --> 00:10:26,820 We think it's the largest single study of rural voters 254 00:10:26,820 --> 00:10:28,650 ever conducted. 255 00:10:28,650 --> 00:10:30,480 We're pretty proud of that data set. 256 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:33,420 Again, the idea was to to roll up our sleeves 257 00:10:33,420 --> 00:10:36,618 and take an objective, data-driven look 258 00:10:36,618 --> 00:10:38,850 at this really important change 259 00:10:38,850 --> 00:10:41,370 that I know you know about, this change. 260 00:10:41,370 --> 00:10:43,350 - Nick, you have anything to add to that? 261 00:10:43,350 --> 00:10:46,470 - The other thing Dan and I did was, you know, 262 00:10:46,470 --> 00:10:50,790 we asked in total almost 250 questions 263 00:10:50,790 --> 00:10:52,590 to rural Americans, 264 00:10:52,590 --> 00:10:55,950 questions that oftentimes many people, 265 00:10:55,950 --> 00:10:58,080 because of their own life experiences, 266 00:10:58,080 --> 00:10:59,940 because of their own research interests, 267 00:10:59,940 --> 00:11:01,650 just don't ask. 268 00:11:01,650 --> 00:11:05,280 But Dan and I do live this rural-urban divide daily. 269 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:08,130 You know, Dan and I know that there are a lot of issues 270 00:11:08,130 --> 00:11:12,420 and answers that rural people want to give, 271 00:11:12,420 --> 00:11:15,810 and they are seldom given the opportunity to speak 272 00:11:15,810 --> 00:11:18,690 about things like community pride 273 00:11:18,690 --> 00:11:20,340 or the sense of, you know, 274 00:11:20,340 --> 00:11:22,650 long memories of how government has treated 275 00:11:22,650 --> 00:11:24,780 their particular community. 276 00:11:24,780 --> 00:11:27,360 And the rural voter survey gave them that space. 277 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:30,720 - Well, the voting patterns, as you said, 278 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:33,360 beginning in the 1980s, 279 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:34,650 began to see that divide. 280 00:11:34,650 --> 00:11:37,080 And I just wanna give you guys a data point. 281 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:40,740 When I ran for the Senate in 2012, 282 00:11:40,740 --> 00:11:44,820 Barack Obama lost North Dakota by 22 points. 283 00:11:44,820 --> 00:11:48,090 But I was able to overcome because I convinced 284 00:11:48,090 --> 00:11:51,240 you know, a fair number of Mitt Romney voters 285 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:52,380 to vote for me. 286 00:11:52,380 --> 00:11:53,970 They voted for Mitt Romney, 287 00:11:53,970 --> 00:11:56,730 then they crossed over and they voted for me. 288 00:11:56,730 --> 00:11:58,770 That was about 22%. 289 00:11:58,770 --> 00:12:02,220 When I ran for reelection, it was only five. 290 00:12:02,220 --> 00:12:06,000 Only 5% of people who voted for President Trump 291 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:10,727 would consider voting for a Democrat, and me. 292 00:12:10,727 --> 00:12:12,690 I think that the D label, 293 00:12:12,690 --> 00:12:15,630 if you talk to a lot of us who lost in that cycle, 294 00:12:15,630 --> 00:12:19,230 we tell you that the single biggest obstacle to reelection 295 00:12:19,230 --> 00:12:21,180 was being labeled a Democrat. 296 00:12:21,180 --> 00:12:23,130 So Dan, you alluded to this. 297 00:12:23,130 --> 00:12:25,290 You said in the 1980s you started 298 00:12:25,290 --> 00:12:27,510 seeing some change in trends. 299 00:12:27,510 --> 00:12:29,700 What do you think caused that? 300 00:12:29,700 --> 00:12:31,440 And what does your data say 301 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:34,770 in terms of whether this is reversible or not? 302 00:12:34,770 --> 00:12:36,810 - Well, I'll start with the first piece, 303 00:12:36,810 --> 00:12:39,330 what happens in the '70s and '80s. 304 00:12:39,330 --> 00:12:43,830 We see a dramatic cultural changes in the '70s 305 00:12:43,830 --> 00:12:46,200 that spill over into the 1980s, 306 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:49,140 the decline of family farms beginning 307 00:12:49,140 --> 00:12:51,030 in earnest in the '70s, 308 00:12:51,030 --> 00:12:53,820 picking up speed in the 1980s. 309 00:12:53,820 --> 00:12:57,660 Surely the decline of rural manufacturing is 310 00:12:57,660 --> 00:12:58,950 really important. 311 00:12:58,950 --> 00:13:02,040 It begins in earnest during this period. 312 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:06,870 We see a sharpening of partisan divides based on 313 00:13:06,870 --> 00:13:09,990 the rise of the evangelical Christian right 314 00:13:09,990 --> 00:13:11,040 is also part of it. 315 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:14,310 So, there are a number of bottom-up pressures. 316 00:13:14,310 --> 00:13:17,040 But Senator, the other piece that we talk about is 317 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:18,510 the top-down pressure, 318 00:13:18,510 --> 00:13:23,130 the idea that savvy Republican operatives were 319 00:13:23,130 --> 00:13:26,070 able to convince a whole bunch of folks 320 00:13:26,070 --> 00:13:28,950 that only they, their party, Republican Party, 321 00:13:28,950 --> 00:13:32,850 cared about the wellbeing of so-called real America. 322 00:13:32,850 --> 00:13:35,580 So, you know, we see this with Ronald Reagan, 323 00:13:35,580 --> 00:13:37,170 we see it with Pat Buchanan, 324 00:13:37,170 --> 00:13:39,360 surely Sarah Palin and so forth, 325 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:43,020 this top-down idea that the Democrats don't care. 326 00:13:43,020 --> 00:13:44,340 Now, don't get us wrong. 327 00:13:44,340 --> 00:13:47,260 We talk a lot about where the Democrats 328 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:50,580 probably turned their back on rural America, 329 00:13:50,580 --> 00:13:52,500 and I know you're concerned about that, 330 00:13:52,500 --> 00:13:57,270 but there was also a top-down, concerted strategic move 331 00:13:57,270 --> 00:13:59,310 by savvy operatives. 332 00:13:59,310 --> 00:14:00,960 Now with regard to turning it around, 333 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:03,270 I wanna pass that easy question to my colleague, 334 00:14:03,270 --> 00:14:04,289 Nick Jacobs. 335 00:14:04,289 --> 00:14:05,250 (Daniel Shea laughs) 336 00:14:05,250 --> 00:14:08,280 - Well, looking ahead to 2024 337 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:11,760 and looking at newest numbers that we've collected 338 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:13,800 since the publication of the book, right? 339 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:14,940 It's reasonable to wonder 340 00:14:14,940 --> 00:14:18,420 whether or not it could get worse for Democrats, right? 341 00:14:18,420 --> 00:14:21,600 So one thing I'd just like to briefly elaborate 342 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:24,150 before I try to attempt to answer that question is 343 00:14:24,150 --> 00:14:27,270 right when viewed in that long historical pattern 344 00:14:27,270 --> 00:14:29,220 that Dan has outlined, 345 00:14:29,220 --> 00:14:30,660 you know, what's interesting is 346 00:14:30,660 --> 00:14:34,200 that Donald Trump is the best performing candidate 347 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:36,780 in rural America, hands down. 348 00:14:36,780 --> 00:14:40,080 But Donald Trump's performance in rural America 349 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:42,690 actually fits a trend line 350 00:14:42,690 --> 00:14:47,690 of rural residents turning over to the Republican Party 351 00:14:47,790 --> 00:14:50,790 year after year after year. 352 00:14:50,790 --> 00:14:54,420 And so although he does a little bit better than expected 353 00:14:54,420 --> 00:14:55,980 in rural America, 354 00:14:55,980 --> 00:14:59,160 any Republican running in 2016 was 355 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:03,570 likely to do extraordinarily well in rural America. 356 00:15:03,570 --> 00:15:06,600 So the, this was a part of a broad turn 357 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:09,090 away from the Democratic Party 358 00:15:09,090 --> 00:15:11,190 who did not muster a response 359 00:15:11,190 --> 00:15:15,150 to the real America narrative for a variety of reasons. 360 00:15:15,150 --> 00:15:19,800 And what this does suggest is two things. 361 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:21,600 First, yeah, it can get worse. 362 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:23,760 The numbers continue to go down. 363 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:24,960 The other thing, though, 364 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:26,880 and the reason why Dan and I do 365 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:29,820 this long historical comparison to start with is 366 00:15:29,820 --> 00:15:33,660 to show that there not only was a time 367 00:15:33,660 --> 00:15:38,490 when rural voters showed up en mass for the other side, 368 00:15:38,490 --> 00:15:39,750 you know, that is to say 369 00:15:39,750 --> 00:15:43,050 there's nothing about ruralness per se 370 00:15:43,050 --> 00:15:46,080 that leads 'em into the Republican Party, right? 371 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:48,480 That, this idea of a rural voter, 372 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:52,530 a Republican rural voter, had to be created, 373 00:15:52,530 --> 00:15:55,110 which means that it can be uncreated 374 00:15:55,110 --> 00:15:57,600 if we can convince people to do that. 375 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:01,860 - When we look forward into kind of the what ifs, 376 00:16:01,860 --> 00:16:04,890 I think one of the things, Nick, that you said, 377 00:16:04,890 --> 00:16:09,540 if you told the average person out there that 2016, 378 00:16:09,540 --> 00:16:12,030 any Republican would probably have done 379 00:16:12,030 --> 00:16:15,180 as well as Donald Trump, 380 00:16:15,180 --> 00:16:16,950 people would like, "No, no, no, 381 00:16:16,950 --> 00:16:18,990 this is all personality driven. 382 00:16:18,990 --> 00:16:22,650 He has basically driven them to a cultural place 383 00:16:22,650 --> 00:16:25,140 that, you know, he speaks to their values, 384 00:16:25,140 --> 00:16:27,150 he gives them permission to, you know, 385 00:16:27,150 --> 00:16:29,130 kind of hold certain beliefs," 386 00:16:29,130 --> 00:16:32,910 and that is frequently the perspective 387 00:16:32,910 --> 00:16:34,830 or the perception that a lot 388 00:16:34,830 --> 00:16:39,510 of kind of not evidence-based analysts kind of come up to. 389 00:16:39,510 --> 00:16:40,980 So my question is, 390 00:16:40,980 --> 00:16:43,770 if it's not being driven by the cult of personality, 391 00:16:43,770 --> 00:16:46,290 a.k.a. Donald Trump, why are, 392 00:16:46,290 --> 00:16:48,330 what, why the big change? 393 00:16:48,330 --> 00:16:51,510 Why are rural voters identifying more 394 00:16:51,510 --> 00:16:53,250 with the Republican Party? 395 00:16:53,250 --> 00:16:57,000 - So I just wanna confirm everything you've said 396 00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:01,110 so far about this not being a cult of personality 397 00:17:01,110 --> 00:17:02,970 and just sort of reflect for a minute 398 00:17:02,970 --> 00:17:04,740 that I think we're hung up so much 399 00:17:04,740 --> 00:17:06,810 on the cult of personality 400 00:17:06,810 --> 00:17:09,690 because that makes it easier for a lot of, I think, 401 00:17:09,690 --> 00:17:12,210 well-meaning individuals 402 00:17:12,210 --> 00:17:16,680 in elite institutions like media, journalism, 403 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:21,680 academia and politics to sort of pass the blame. 404 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:25,020 And I think part of the, your, 405 00:17:25,020 --> 00:17:27,780 the answer to your question has to do with the fact 406 00:17:27,780 --> 00:17:31,770 that rural residents increasingly blame 407 00:17:31,770 --> 00:17:36,770 Democrats for not caring about their communities, 408 00:17:37,170 --> 00:17:41,640 for openly in some ways wanting to sort of write them off 409 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:44,910 as not a part of the future, 410 00:17:44,910 --> 00:17:48,990 that the rural lifestyle, rural economy, 411 00:17:48,990 --> 00:17:51,390 the way in which a lot of people find, 412 00:17:51,390 --> 00:17:54,660 rural people find value and dignity in their lives is 413 00:17:54,660 --> 00:17:56,550 not modern enough. 414 00:17:56,550 --> 00:17:59,340 I think there's a lot of signals that are sent out 415 00:17:59,340 --> 00:18:01,860 throughout our political system that to be 416 00:18:01,860 --> 00:18:05,550 a Democrat in 2016 or 2020 is 417 00:18:05,550 --> 00:18:08,880 not to hold on to those country things, 418 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:10,650 those rural things. 419 00:18:10,650 --> 00:18:15,240 And I think in 2016, you know, you had the persona of Trump. 420 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:16,530 I mean, I will say this, 421 00:18:16,530 --> 00:18:17,910 Dan and I write throughout the book, 422 00:18:17,910 --> 00:18:20,160 so I don't know why I'm being sheepish. 423 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:23,310 You know, you also had a candidate that seemed to be, 424 00:18:23,310 --> 00:18:28,310 to personify a lot of that urban disdain 425 00:18:28,350 --> 00:18:32,190 that rural people feel in the form of Hillary Clinton. 426 00:18:32,190 --> 00:18:34,740 Now I don't know her personal beliefs 427 00:18:34,740 --> 00:18:38,100 about rural America or personal feelings about it, 428 00:18:38,100 --> 00:18:40,260 but certainly the way in which she engaged 429 00:18:40,260 --> 00:18:42,870 with coal miners in West Virginia, 430 00:18:42,870 --> 00:18:45,180 the ways in which she, after the election, 431 00:18:45,180 --> 00:18:48,060 seemed to openly celebrate the fact that she lost 432 00:18:48,060 --> 00:18:50,850 in these backwards moving places, 433 00:18:50,850 --> 00:18:54,540 you know, that builds distrust 434 00:18:54,540 --> 00:18:57,090 in the Democratic Party 435 00:18:57,090 --> 00:18:59,900 and that builds on top of a distrust that was there 436 00:18:59,900 --> 00:19:03,000 in a lot of parts that some candidates had 437 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:05,400 historically been able to overcome 438 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:06,930 because of their deep roots, 439 00:19:06,930 --> 00:19:08,460 because of their authenticity, 440 00:19:08,460 --> 00:19:10,890 because of their connection to community. 441 00:19:10,890 --> 00:19:13,530 But again, as we nationalize, 442 00:19:13,530 --> 00:19:16,410 as we become more focused on presidential politics 443 00:19:16,410 --> 00:19:19,410 at the expense of local, down ballot politics, 444 00:19:19,410 --> 00:19:22,350 it's becoming harder and harder for the few Democrats 445 00:19:22,350 --> 00:19:24,960 in rural areas to do even that. 446 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:26,700 - I would add to that we spent 447 00:19:26,700 --> 00:19:31,110 a good bit of time looking at state legislatures as well. 448 00:19:31,110 --> 00:19:34,200 And holy cow, the transformation we've seen 449 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:36,510 in the last few decades in state legislatures. 450 00:19:36,510 --> 00:19:39,120 I mean, you look at the control of Republicans 451 00:19:39,120 --> 00:19:41,250 in North and South Dakota and elsewhere, 452 00:19:41,250 --> 00:19:43,650 it is amazing. 453 00:19:43,650 --> 00:19:46,560 You know, the little data point that I often mention, 454 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:48,000 Senator, to my students was 455 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:50,040 I got to shake hands with 456 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:53,820 arguably one of the most liberal senators running 457 00:19:53,820 --> 00:19:58,317 for the presidency in his hometown in 1972. 458 00:19:58,317 --> 00:20:00,480 And of course that was George McGovern 459 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:01,920 in Mitchell, South Dakota. 460 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:03,840 And they're like, "You're telling me the most, 461 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:06,210 one of the most liberal politicians to run 462 00:20:06,210 --> 00:20:09,270 for the presidency was from South Dakota?" 463 00:20:09,270 --> 00:20:11,430 I said, "Yeah, you got that right, 464 00:20:11,430 --> 00:20:12,300 you got that right." 465 00:20:12,300 --> 00:20:14,610 So I think Nick's point's really well taken. 466 00:20:14,610 --> 00:20:16,260 I won't rehash that, 467 00:20:16,260 --> 00:20:18,540 but just this sense that there's this belief 468 00:20:18,540 --> 00:20:20,740 that the Democrats don't appreciate 469 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:24,450 the value of being rural. 470 00:20:24,450 --> 00:20:27,240 Rural Americans are very pleased where they live, 471 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:28,980 they love their community, 472 00:20:28,980 --> 00:20:30,000 they wanna stay there 473 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:32,310 and they want their kids to stay there. 474 00:20:32,310 --> 00:20:33,930 And somehow they've been convinced 475 00:20:33,930 --> 00:20:35,910 that Democrats don't care about that. 476 00:20:35,910 --> 00:20:38,610 - I probably put too much emphasis on this, 477 00:20:38,610 --> 00:20:42,180 but one of the reasons why I think during the '80s, 478 00:20:42,180 --> 00:20:44,640 Democrats still were able to produce 479 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:47,760 Tom Daschle, Byron and Kent, and, you know, 480 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:51,750 and it was because Republicans had decided 481 00:20:51,750 --> 00:20:54,660 that they were against the Farm Bill, right? 482 00:20:54,660 --> 00:20:57,510 So George Bush vetoed the Farm Bill twice, 483 00:20:57,510 --> 00:21:00,060 and eventually it took a discharge petition. 484 00:21:00,060 --> 00:21:03,000 And I think the Republican Party made 485 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:06,840 a very knowledgeable and strategically smart shift 486 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:08,790 and said, look, we've been fighting 487 00:21:08,790 --> 00:21:10,410 the Farm Bill for a lot of years. 488 00:21:10,410 --> 00:21:12,330 We're gonna quit fighting the Farm Bill. 489 00:21:12,330 --> 00:21:16,260 And so that point of differentiation that 490 00:21:16,260 --> 00:21:18,270 you know, Kent Conrad could argue, 491 00:21:18,270 --> 00:21:20,730 look, I'm a champion of the Farm Bill, you know? 492 00:21:20,730 --> 00:21:22,320 My opponent is 493 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:24,990 a member of a party that doesn't like the Farm Bill. 494 00:21:24,990 --> 00:21:27,690 And that policy issue got lost 495 00:21:27,690 --> 00:21:29,370 because it became nonpartisan, 496 00:21:29,370 --> 00:21:31,200 or bipartisan, if you wanna say. 497 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:35,126 And so if you look at policies, right, 498 00:21:35,126 --> 00:21:36,690 you know, affordable housing, 499 00:21:36,690 --> 00:21:40,740 getting money into rural communities for daycare, 500 00:21:40,740 --> 00:21:42,660 broadband investments, 501 00:21:42,660 --> 00:21:44,610 and now the Infrastructure Bill is 502 00:21:44,610 --> 00:21:47,040 sending billions of dollars of investment 503 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:49,980 to rural America and tribal America, 504 00:21:49,980 --> 00:21:51,240 you know, the Democrats 505 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:52,957 like raise their voice and say, 506 00:21:52,957 --> 00:21:54,780 "But look at everything that we've done. 507 00:21:54,780 --> 00:21:56,850 Look at our great policies." 508 00:21:56,850 --> 00:21:59,220 Why would those political activities 509 00:21:59,220 --> 00:22:01,890 or policy activities not translate 510 00:22:01,890 --> 00:22:05,970 into, you know, votes for Democrats, you guys? 511 00:22:05,970 --> 00:22:06,993 - Well, I'll give you 512 00:22:06,993 --> 00:22:09,210 just two quick thoughts and I'll pass to Nick. 513 00:22:09,210 --> 00:22:11,250 One of the things that we argue is 514 00:22:11,250 --> 00:22:13,920 that the Democrats should be more inclined 515 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:17,430 to provide assistance that's very particularized 516 00:22:17,430 --> 00:22:19,890 to rural communities, rural states, 517 00:22:19,890 --> 00:22:23,820 rural communities, rural occupations, right? 518 00:22:23,820 --> 00:22:27,210 You can't think of rural as just a monolith, right? 519 00:22:27,210 --> 00:22:30,720 Each state has a different focus, a different interest. 520 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:32,670 And on top of that, we think 521 00:22:32,670 --> 00:22:33,900 that the Democrats should be 522 00:22:33,900 --> 00:22:37,800 more prone to give rural communities license, 523 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:39,780 they should give them agency, right? 524 00:22:39,780 --> 00:22:41,430 Should give them discretion 525 00:22:41,430 --> 00:22:43,950 on how they might use some of these monies. 526 00:22:43,950 --> 00:22:45,720 What we find throughout the book is 527 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:47,820 this sense in rural communities 528 00:22:47,820 --> 00:22:50,340 that Washington is coming to help, 529 00:22:50,340 --> 00:22:53,490 Washington is here to help you. 530 00:22:53,490 --> 00:22:56,790 And that has not worked in a number of places. 531 00:22:56,790 --> 00:22:59,199 Most prominently of course would be NAFTA, right? 532 00:22:59,199 --> 00:23:01,650 All boats will be lifted up with NAFTA. 533 00:23:01,650 --> 00:23:04,080 We spent page after page talking 534 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:05,760 about the NAFTA ghost towns, 535 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:08,400 which is really important in rural America. 536 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:10,380 So those two things right off the top 537 00:23:10,380 --> 00:23:14,181 of particularizing assistance to these communities, 538 00:23:14,181 --> 00:23:17,250 different industries, different occupations, 539 00:23:17,250 --> 00:23:21,180 and also the dignity of a failure, of risk, 540 00:23:21,180 --> 00:23:24,000 letting rural communities spend this money 541 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:25,680 as they think it would be right. 542 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:26,790 'Cause they, hey, 543 00:23:26,790 --> 00:23:28,680 they might know what's best, right? 544 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:30,780 - Yeah, just thinking about the question first. 545 00:23:30,780 --> 00:23:32,187 I love when I come on a program 546 00:23:32,187 --> 00:23:33,720 and I actually learn something 547 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:35,070 and I'm really intrigued 548 00:23:35,070 --> 00:23:37,800 by this policy divergence and convergence. 549 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,110 And it has me thinking that, you know, 550 00:23:40,110 --> 00:23:43,440 on so many issues that are important to rural Americans, 551 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,230 actually some of the policies have converged 552 00:23:46,230 --> 00:23:48,330 and I think that's made it easier 553 00:23:48,330 --> 00:23:50,850 to think less about policies in some sense, 554 00:23:50,850 --> 00:23:52,200 which has driven the turn, right? 555 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:54,570 So, you know, on the Farm Bill, as you mentioned, 556 00:23:54,570 --> 00:23:55,740 but as Dan mentioned, right, 557 00:23:55,740 --> 00:23:59,400 NAFTA is not really contested at an elite level 558 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:01,020 once the ink is signed, right? 559 00:24:01,020 --> 00:24:03,090 We go full-on trade deal 560 00:24:03,090 --> 00:24:05,370 as factory after factory closes, 561 00:24:05,370 --> 00:24:07,650 which is just building resentment. 562 00:24:07,650 --> 00:24:10,170 And I think, you know, this question of, 563 00:24:10,170 --> 00:24:12,540 but the Democrats do so much, 564 00:24:12,540 --> 00:24:15,690 they pour so much money into rural areas, 565 00:24:15,690 --> 00:24:17,190 can be confusing. 566 00:24:17,190 --> 00:24:19,980 But I would emphasize two things 567 00:24:19,980 --> 00:24:21,720 in addition to what Dan said. 568 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:25,080 One, as you're seeing play out right now 569 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:27,600 in the announcement of different project grants 570 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:32,580 for clean energy plants or renewable energy factories, 571 00:24:32,580 --> 00:24:36,210 you see some rural communities clamoring for that money. 572 00:24:36,210 --> 00:24:39,840 And then you see some sort of waiting on the sidelines, 573 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:42,480 seeing how this is gonna play out. 574 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,180 Because it is true that when federal investments, 575 00:24:45,180 --> 00:24:46,890 especially of this magnitude, 576 00:24:46,890 --> 00:24:51,890 I mean we are talking billions of dollars in subsidies to 577 00:24:52,230 --> 00:24:55,503 and larger domestic manufacturing capacities, 578 00:24:55,503 --> 00:24:59,220 that sometimes when those monies pour into communities, 579 00:24:59,220 --> 00:25:04,050 local leaders know that the community cannot keep up. 580 00:25:04,050 --> 00:25:06,930 The community is irreparably changed. 581 00:25:06,930 --> 00:25:09,060 Decisions are made 582 00:25:09,060 --> 00:25:12,390 against what the community might want, right? 583 00:25:12,390 --> 00:25:15,690 And I think we can all agree regardless of where we live, 584 00:25:15,690 --> 00:25:19,200 like we would, we want investment, we want good jobs, 585 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:22,410 but we also wanna maintain a sense of place. 586 00:25:22,410 --> 00:25:25,110 Like, we don't want to just redevelop 587 00:25:25,110 --> 00:25:28,350 and throw out everything that's good about a place 588 00:25:28,350 --> 00:25:31,200 so that we can get all these federal monies. 589 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:34,920 So even this investment question is more complicated. 590 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:36,300 That said, right, I think there are 591 00:25:36,300 --> 00:25:38,580 policies that the Democrats have pursued 592 00:25:38,580 --> 00:25:40,860 that are clearly, I mean, 593 00:25:40,860 --> 00:25:44,370 to the benefit of people living in rural America, 594 00:25:44,370 --> 00:25:46,830 such as the Affordable Care Act. 595 00:25:46,830 --> 00:25:48,840 And it's totally reasonable to say 596 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:52,500 like, hey, why are you voting for the person that wants 597 00:25:52,500 --> 00:25:55,710 to get rid of something like the Affordable Care Act, 598 00:25:55,710 --> 00:25:58,800 which has boosted insurability in your area? 599 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:00,510 I would emphasize, 600 00:26:00,510 --> 00:26:02,700 and I would just sort of gently remind people 601 00:26:02,700 --> 00:26:04,560 that regardless of whether you're living 602 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:07,410 in a rural community or an urban community, 603 00:26:07,410 --> 00:26:09,840 not everybody that's voting has 604 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,660 the luxury of thinking about policy. 605 00:26:12,660 --> 00:26:14,190 Policies are complex. 606 00:26:14,190 --> 00:26:15,570 Not every voter's sitting here, 607 00:26:15,570 --> 00:26:17,880 listening to political podcasts, 608 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:20,190 trying to make sense of the world, you know? 609 00:26:20,190 --> 00:26:22,440 And actually even the most informed are 610 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,890 more or less relying on cognitive shortcuts 611 00:26:25,890 --> 00:26:28,290 to make sense of complicated matters. 612 00:26:28,290 --> 00:26:30,930 Who I'm with, who's I'm against, 613 00:26:30,930 --> 00:26:33,900 who do I trust, who do I not trust? 614 00:26:33,900 --> 00:26:36,690 And so even on those policy questions, 615 00:26:36,690 --> 00:26:38,820 you can't overcome the fact 616 00:26:38,820 --> 00:26:41,633 that the trust is not there. 617 00:26:41,633 --> 00:26:44,250 - I wanna emphasize a couple of the points 618 00:26:44,250 --> 00:26:45,240 that you guys made, 619 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:47,490 which I think are absolutely critical. 620 00:26:47,490 --> 00:26:50,310 Number one, are you doing it with them 621 00:26:50,310 --> 00:26:51,660 or are you doing it to 'em? 622 00:26:51,660 --> 00:26:54,030 Are you saying, "Here, I'm gonna help you, 623 00:26:54,030 --> 00:26:55,440 you know, lift you up." 624 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:57,990 And people go, "Well, who the hell are you 625 00:26:57,990 --> 00:27:00,360 to tell me how I should live my life?" 626 00:27:00,360 --> 00:27:04,131 Now, if you go back and take a look at something 627 00:27:04,131 --> 00:27:06,630 that I think doesn't get talked about enough, 628 00:27:06,630 --> 00:27:09,060 because the Democrats will focus on broadband, 629 00:27:09,060 --> 00:27:10,710 they'll focus on the money, 630 00:27:10,710 --> 00:27:12,667 to your point, Nick, people say, 631 00:27:12,667 --> 00:27:14,400 "We don't want that." 632 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,310 I have a friend who just wrote a book, Ernie Scheyder, 633 00:27:17,310 --> 00:27:19,650 he wrote a book about critical minerals, 634 00:27:19,650 --> 00:27:23,490 many of these being mined and processed in rural communities 635 00:27:23,490 --> 00:27:25,027 where rural communities are saying, 636 00:27:25,027 --> 00:27:26,130 "Hell, no. 637 00:27:26,130 --> 00:27:28,020 Hey, you know, this gonna be, 638 00:27:28,020 --> 00:27:30,570 bring 20 jobs and a lot of mess 639 00:27:30,570 --> 00:27:32,880 and that's not who we are." 640 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:34,500 And so, you know, it's like, 641 00:27:34,500 --> 00:27:37,440 it's not just any job, right? 642 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,290 It's not just any economic opportunity. 643 00:27:40,290 --> 00:27:41,910 And when you don't let people have, 644 00:27:41,910 --> 00:27:44,820 and again, communities, have self-determination, 645 00:27:44,820 --> 00:27:47,130 and then you act like you're the savior, 646 00:27:47,130 --> 00:27:49,830 that's just gonna build even more resentment, right? 647 00:27:49,830 --> 00:27:52,110 - Rather than writing them off as rubes 648 00:27:52,110 --> 00:27:55,140 that don't know a good thing when they got it, 649 00:27:55,140 --> 00:27:56,220 you know, actually listen 650 00:27:56,220 --> 00:27:58,980 to the stories that people know 651 00:27:58,980 --> 00:28:00,930 good and well in these communities 652 00:28:00,930 --> 00:28:03,510 about how past interventions have 653 00:28:03,510 --> 00:28:05,340 ironically made things worse. 654 00:28:05,340 --> 00:28:08,520 Like, can't we acknowledge that that sometimes happens? 655 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:10,410 It seems like Democrats are 656 00:28:10,410 --> 00:28:13,380 particularly nervous in doing that. 657 00:28:13,380 --> 00:28:17,310 - Two quick points about why Democrats often don't get 658 00:28:17,310 --> 00:28:19,500 credit for some of these policies, 659 00:28:19,500 --> 00:28:20,950 like the Affordable Care Act. 660 00:28:21,810 --> 00:28:24,030 The first is we've got 661 00:28:24,030 --> 00:28:26,160 as you know, news deserts, right? 662 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:29,280 We've got the evaporation of local news. 663 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:30,780 So the only option, 664 00:28:30,780 --> 00:28:33,750 the only game in town is the nationalization of news. 665 00:28:33,750 --> 00:28:35,910 You turn to the national news, 666 00:28:35,910 --> 00:28:37,950 which is often just 667 00:28:37,950 --> 00:28:41,490 a screaming match about partisan issues, 668 00:28:41,490 --> 00:28:42,660 larger partisan issues, 669 00:28:42,660 --> 00:28:45,030 not about what's happening on the ground 670 00:28:45,030 --> 00:28:46,590 in your communities. 671 00:28:46,590 --> 00:28:49,350 And secondly, there's this self-fulfilled prophecy 672 00:28:49,350 --> 00:28:52,890 where there are no Democrats around to talk 673 00:28:52,890 --> 00:28:55,950 about the success of these policies. 674 00:28:55,950 --> 00:28:56,820 So it, 675 00:28:56,820 --> 00:28:58,147 so nobody's saying, 676 00:28:58,147 --> 00:28:58,980 "Hey, by the way, 677 00:28:58,980 --> 00:29:00,930 you're getting this because of the work 678 00:29:00,930 --> 00:29:04,740 of the Biden administration or the Obama administration." 679 00:29:04,740 --> 00:29:06,630 So those two issues are really important 680 00:29:06,630 --> 00:29:09,060 when we think about why Democrats don't, 681 00:29:09,060 --> 00:29:10,200 can't seem to capitalize 682 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:12,960 on some of these investments in rural areas. 683 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:14,820 - It's one of the biggest gaps 684 00:29:14,820 --> 00:29:16,920 between rural and urban, 685 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:19,170 like political participation, 686 00:29:19,170 --> 00:29:22,747 is just how frequently rural people just say, 687 00:29:22,747 --> 00:29:24,810 "I don't follow national news. 688 00:29:24,810 --> 00:29:26,610 I stopped following it." 689 00:29:26,610 --> 00:29:29,850 - Well, this idea that because the local television 690 00:29:29,850 --> 00:29:31,980 and local newspaper are gone, 691 00:29:31,980 --> 00:29:34,890 that rural Americans are huddled in their basement, 692 00:29:34,890 --> 00:29:37,980 glued to the latest ins and outs on the, 693 00:29:37,980 --> 00:29:39,330 we didn't find, that Nick's right. 694 00:29:39,330 --> 00:29:43,020 We're finding they're more likely to simply drop out. 695 00:29:43,020 --> 00:29:46,740 - So here it's time for a shameless plug 696 00:29:46,740 --> 00:29:48,690 on where they can get your book 697 00:29:48,690 --> 00:29:50,910 and where you guys are gonna be 698 00:29:50,910 --> 00:29:52,080 kind of going forward 699 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:55,650 and how people can connect with you if they're curious. 700 00:29:55,650 --> 00:29:58,530 - So, "The Rural Voter" is available on Amazon. 701 00:29:58,530 --> 00:30:01,410 You can also order it directly from our publisher 702 00:30:01,410 --> 00:30:06,360 and support rigorous, peer-reviewed academic scholarship 703 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:08,490 from Columbia University Press. 704 00:30:08,490 --> 00:30:11,550 I assure you that although it's a thick book 705 00:30:11,550 --> 00:30:14,010 with something like 72 figures, 706 00:30:14,010 --> 00:30:16,950 Dan and I do try to write it breezy 707 00:30:16,950 --> 00:30:20,070 and keep it fun and playful. 708 00:30:20,070 --> 00:30:21,300 - Thank you for having us today. 709 00:30:21,300 --> 00:30:24,120 We've been doing a lot of podcasts, a lot of interviews. 710 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:25,890 It's a really important question. 711 00:30:25,890 --> 00:30:26,820 It's an important issue. 712 00:30:26,820 --> 00:30:30,120 This 20%, this is our friends, our neighbors, 713 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:33,150 we need to understand what's happening in rural America. 714 00:30:33,150 --> 00:30:34,650 There's been a lot of interest, 715 00:30:34,650 --> 00:30:37,140 but we've really enjoyed our chat with you today. 716 00:30:37,140 --> 00:30:39,870 - I look forward to getting to know you guys better. 717 00:30:39,870 --> 00:30:42,000 And I'm so grateful that you spent 718 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:46,496 this time with us here on "One Country Hot Dish Podcast". 719 00:30:46,496 --> 00:30:49,579 (lively music plays) 720 00:30:51,327 --> 00:30:52,410 You know, I wanna talk a little bit 721 00:30:52,410 --> 00:30:54,360 about an issue that I think is 722 00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:56,970 really critical to rural America, 723 00:30:56,970 --> 00:31:00,630 and that is where the population is headed, 724 00:31:00,630 --> 00:31:03,087 more majority-minority, 725 00:31:03,087 --> 00:31:08,087 and you know, the sense that many people have 726 00:31:08,220 --> 00:31:10,200 who grow up in this state, 727 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:12,450 that they really don't have a place here anymore 728 00:31:12,450 --> 00:31:14,910 in North Dakota and other rural states. 729 00:31:14,910 --> 00:31:19,350 And I just ran into a woman, very prominent, 730 00:31:19,350 --> 00:31:23,520 her husband was a Republican elected official. 731 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:26,280 She comes from a very Republican family. 732 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:27,450 She has three children. 733 00:31:27,450 --> 00:31:29,970 And I was asking her about her kids 734 00:31:29,970 --> 00:31:31,380 and what they were doing, 735 00:31:31,380 --> 00:31:34,950 a lawyer, a doctor, an artist, you know, 736 00:31:34,950 --> 00:31:36,540 talking about, well, what's their plan? 737 00:31:36,540 --> 00:31:39,930 And she said, "They will never move back to North Dakota. 738 00:31:39,930 --> 00:31:41,670 They will never come home." 739 00:31:41,670 --> 00:31:43,920 And she said, "They just don't think 740 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:45,390 there's a place for them here 741 00:31:45,390 --> 00:31:47,520 and for people who think differently." 742 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:51,540 I mean, what do you say when people say that to you, Josh? 743 00:31:51,540 --> 00:31:54,000 - Well, Heidi, unfortunately it's all too common. 744 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,700 What we continue to hear in states like North Dakota, 745 00:31:56,700 --> 00:32:01,080 you know, I've worked since 2009 with legislators 746 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:03,750 and policy makers across the state to try to get 747 00:32:03,750 --> 00:32:06,630 a fully inclusive, non-discrimination legislation 748 00:32:06,630 --> 00:32:08,370 passed in North Dakota. 749 00:32:08,370 --> 00:32:11,130 And while we certainly had traction in 2009 750 00:32:11,130 --> 00:32:14,430 and made some progress into 2011 and '13, 751 00:32:14,430 --> 00:32:17,340 ever since then, the rhetoric has shifted 752 00:32:17,340 --> 00:32:19,830 and it's become more harmful conversations 753 00:32:19,830 --> 00:32:22,290 around not just LGBT inclusivity, 754 00:32:22,290 --> 00:32:23,670 but when we talk about immigrants, 755 00:32:23,670 --> 00:32:25,440 when we talk about people of color, 756 00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:28,050 people from tribal communities within our state, 757 00:32:28,050 --> 00:32:29,430 and it's hard because like you said, 758 00:32:29,430 --> 00:32:32,220 those, that prominent Republican family is 759 00:32:32,220 --> 00:32:34,890 learning firsthand that when they let 760 00:32:34,890 --> 00:32:37,110 some of these people speak unchecked, 761 00:32:37,110 --> 00:32:38,940 their kids and grandkids don't want 762 00:32:38,940 --> 00:32:40,620 to call North Dakota home. 763 00:32:40,620 --> 00:32:41,940 And I'd be willing to bet 764 00:32:41,940 --> 00:32:44,190 those three kids that were referenced, 765 00:32:44,190 --> 00:32:46,380 they themselves might not be LGBT themselves 766 00:32:46,380 --> 00:32:48,750 or from biracial family or anything like that. 767 00:32:48,750 --> 00:32:50,640 It's just they value 768 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,220 a community where everyone can be successful. 769 00:32:53,220 --> 00:32:54,810 And I think there's still opportunities 770 00:32:54,810 --> 00:32:57,870 in places like North Dakota and rural America, 771 00:32:57,870 --> 00:33:00,660 but it requires a commitment from our communities 772 00:33:00,660 --> 00:33:03,577 to stand up against this negative rhetoric and say, 773 00:33:03,577 --> 00:33:04,410 "You know what? 774 00:33:04,410 --> 00:33:05,670 We have a need for nurses, 775 00:33:05,670 --> 00:33:07,260 we need childcare workers, 776 00:33:07,260 --> 00:33:09,630 we need teachers, we need someone to run this store 777 00:33:09,630 --> 00:33:11,610 so we can keep the grocery store open. 778 00:33:11,610 --> 00:33:14,790 And sometimes that might be someone who doesn't look like me 779 00:33:14,790 --> 00:33:16,860 or lives a different lifestyle than me, 780 00:33:16,860 --> 00:33:18,390 but as long as they're hardworking 781 00:33:18,390 --> 00:33:20,880 and willing to commit to our community, 782 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:22,110 we want 'em here." 783 00:33:22,110 --> 00:33:24,420 And so it's tough, 784 00:33:24,420 --> 00:33:26,040 and we hear that often. 785 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:28,350 I think the hardest letters I receive 786 00:33:28,350 --> 00:33:31,410 as one of the openly gay legislators in North Dakota 787 00:33:31,410 --> 00:33:33,810 is the letters from moms who talk about 788 00:33:33,810 --> 00:33:35,850 their sons or daughters not coming home 789 00:33:35,850 --> 00:33:37,080 for Christmas anymore 790 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:38,730 'cause they don't feel safe in the state. 791 00:33:38,730 --> 00:33:40,830 - Josh, I was just in Chicago 792 00:33:40,830 --> 00:33:44,400 doing an event and someone who was there had spent 793 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:47,520 some time in North Dakota, you know, 794 00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:49,110 was a gay man. 795 00:33:49,110 --> 00:33:50,160 And he said, you know, 796 00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:52,860 his experience has been people are fearful, 797 00:33:52,860 --> 00:33:56,220 not just, you know, I don't, I can't find community here, 798 00:33:56,220 --> 00:33:58,560 I can't find a comfort level here, 799 00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:00,780 but that people are scared. 800 00:34:00,780 --> 00:34:02,520 Is that what you're seeing 801 00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:05,730 as you see more and more of this legislation 802 00:34:05,730 --> 00:34:08,943 demonizing people based on who they love 803 00:34:08,943 --> 00:34:11,140 and how they 804 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:13,080 live their life? 805 00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:15,067 - You know, Heidi, I think that fear is growing. 806 00:34:15,067 --> 00:34:18,030 You know, you know North Dakota as well as anyone. 807 00:34:18,030 --> 00:34:20,760 We are a state of people who take care of our neighbors. 808 00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:23,460 That value of if you're hardworking 809 00:34:23,460 --> 00:34:24,540 and you're willing to commit 810 00:34:24,540 --> 00:34:27,540 to helping improve the quality of our communities, 811 00:34:27,540 --> 00:34:28,890 we want you to be here. 812 00:34:28,890 --> 00:34:30,150 And that has shifted 813 00:34:30,150 --> 00:34:33,030 because the rhetoric isn't so much about belonging 814 00:34:33,030 --> 00:34:35,940 and it's more about who should belong and who shouldn't, 815 00:34:35,940 --> 00:34:38,580 and sometimes in really harmful ways. 816 00:34:38,580 --> 00:34:40,110 And that's concerning 817 00:34:40,110 --> 00:34:42,420 because like the individual you've spoken about, 818 00:34:42,420 --> 00:34:43,830 I'm hearing more stories of people 819 00:34:43,830 --> 00:34:46,140 who won't even travel through North Dakota. 820 00:34:46,140 --> 00:34:48,480 They won't even get to experience the beauty of our state 821 00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:52,110 or have a great slice of pie at the Tower City Cafe 822 00:34:52,110 --> 00:34:54,690 as they're driving across I-94 823 00:34:54,690 --> 00:34:56,730 because they're afraid of, you know, 824 00:34:56,730 --> 00:34:58,500 what they're going to experience, 825 00:34:58,500 --> 00:35:00,180 founded or unfounded. 826 00:35:00,180 --> 00:35:02,040 And again, you and I know, you know, 827 00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:04,470 we've got a long history of of people who 828 00:35:04,470 --> 00:35:06,270 regardless of their sexual orientation, 829 00:35:06,270 --> 00:35:07,290 their gender identity, 830 00:35:07,290 --> 00:35:09,750 their race, their religion, who, you know, 831 00:35:09,750 --> 00:35:12,210 North Dakota has been a quiet place 832 00:35:12,210 --> 00:35:13,890 with some conservative values, 833 00:35:13,890 --> 00:35:15,750 but it's never been harmful. 834 00:35:15,750 --> 00:35:19,320 In that last decade, it's become harmful for folks. 835 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:21,960 - You know, people by their nature in North Dakota are 836 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:23,430 conflict adverse. 837 00:35:23,430 --> 00:35:26,100 They don't wanna go to the cafe and have a big argument. 838 00:35:26,100 --> 00:35:28,680 They don't wanna go to, you know, play bingo 839 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:30,930 and get in a fight about some political thing. 840 00:35:30,930 --> 00:35:32,820 They just wanna live their lives. 841 00:35:32,820 --> 00:35:35,190 But they also are living in a state 842 00:35:35,190 --> 00:35:37,590 where when good people don't speak up, 843 00:35:37,590 --> 00:35:39,900 a lot of these voices are outsized. 844 00:35:39,900 --> 00:35:43,020 And this is not just a North Dakota problem, 845 00:35:43,020 --> 00:35:45,210 this is a problem across the country, 846 00:35:45,210 --> 00:35:47,280 more and more good people being afraid 847 00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:48,150 to run for office, 848 00:35:48,150 --> 00:35:51,210 more and more good people leaving office 849 00:35:51,210 --> 00:35:53,520 because they just don't want the conflict. 850 00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:58,320 And that means that the radical minority wins. 851 00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:01,980 And so we've gotta do everything we can, I think, 852 00:36:01,980 --> 00:36:06,330 in rural places to support people who wanna run. 853 00:36:06,330 --> 00:36:08,370 I don't care if they're Democrats or Republicans. 854 00:36:08,370 --> 00:36:11,970 If they wanna govern and they don't wanna judge other people 855 00:36:11,970 --> 00:36:13,380 and they don't wanna create 856 00:36:13,380 --> 00:36:16,559 hostile environments for North Dakota citizens, 857 00:36:16,559 --> 00:36:19,260 then, you know, that's pretty low bar, 858 00:36:19,260 --> 00:36:21,030 but apparently it's kind of hard to reach 859 00:36:21,030 --> 00:36:22,680 in North Dakota right now. 860 00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:23,513 - Yeah, exactly. 861 00:36:23,513 --> 00:36:25,830 I mean, I don't, I can't think of a North Dakotan 862 00:36:25,830 --> 00:36:27,420 outside of those that are vocal about it 863 00:36:27,420 --> 00:36:28,717 that wakes up every morning and says, 864 00:36:28,717 --> 00:36:31,410 "I need to worry about who's using which bathroom," 865 00:36:31,410 --> 00:36:32,700 or whether someone should be able 866 00:36:32,700 --> 00:36:34,200 to walk down the street holding hands 867 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:36,090 with someone of the same sex. 868 00:36:36,090 --> 00:36:37,680 What they wake up thinking about is 869 00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:40,320 how am I gonna make sure that childcare is open today? 870 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:42,030 How do I make sure that my neighbor's kids have 871 00:36:42,030 --> 00:36:43,200 a good meal at school? 872 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:44,640 And a lot of times that means 873 00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:46,800 people are writing checks for other kids' school meals 874 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,380 because we don't fully fund school meals in the state. 875 00:36:49,380 --> 00:36:51,150 And that's what I think we need our citizens, 876 00:36:51,150 --> 00:36:52,350 and again, our neighbors 877 00:36:52,350 --> 00:36:54,990 and good folks regardless of political parties 878 00:36:54,990 --> 00:36:57,000 to hold elected officials accountable 879 00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:58,657 and say things like, 880 00:36:58,657 --> 00:37:00,660 "I don't care who you love 881 00:37:00,660 --> 00:37:01,860 or the color of your skin 882 00:37:01,860 --> 00:37:04,620 or the, you know, the religion that you practice," 883 00:37:04,620 --> 00:37:06,139 'cause we know that's a North Dakota value. 884 00:37:06,139 --> 00:37:07,230 We don't, we really don't care. 885 00:37:07,230 --> 00:37:09,870 But when we let that rhetoric go unchecked, 886 00:37:09,870 --> 00:37:12,750 it creates this vacuum that allows it to be 887 00:37:12,750 --> 00:37:15,000 the lived truth when you and I know 888 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:15,870 that that's not the truth 889 00:37:15,870 --> 00:37:17,790 of the majority of North Dakotans. 890 00:37:17,790 --> 00:37:20,700 And again, let's get back to focusing on the issues at hand. 891 00:37:20,700 --> 00:37:23,640 - So Josh, we've been doing a lot of admiring the problem 892 00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:27,086 and not really proposing any solutions, right? 893 00:37:27,086 --> 00:37:29,520 You know, I always call it we're the hand wringers. 894 00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,430 Oh look what's happening, what are we gonna do? 895 00:37:32,430 --> 00:37:34,290 So what are we gonna do about it? 896 00:37:34,290 --> 00:37:37,590 What are we gonna do to make North Dakota more inclusive, 897 00:37:37,590 --> 00:37:40,680 accepting state for everyone 898 00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:41,820 who wants to work hard 899 00:37:41,820 --> 00:37:46,020 and live by good community values? 900 00:37:46,020 --> 00:37:47,448 - I think first and foremost, you know, 901 00:37:47,448 --> 00:37:48,720 I had a great conversation last night 902 00:37:48,720 --> 00:37:50,790 with the North Dakota Human Rights Coalition. 903 00:37:50,790 --> 00:37:53,250 They have a working group working on some issues 904 00:37:53,250 --> 00:37:55,020 and you know part of it, as I told them, is 905 00:37:55,020 --> 00:37:56,070 we have to be louder. 906 00:37:56,070 --> 00:37:58,710 We have to organize and engage folks 907 00:37:58,710 --> 00:38:01,740 and get them involved in the political process. 908 00:38:01,740 --> 00:38:02,880 States like North Dakota, 909 00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:05,850 where we've seen lower voting propensity, 910 00:38:05,850 --> 00:38:07,170 a lot of times it's people who think 911 00:38:07,170 --> 00:38:09,150 that their vote doesn't matter because they're only thinking 912 00:38:09,150 --> 00:38:11,010 of the top of the ticket. 913 00:38:11,010 --> 00:38:12,540 And so if you're a Democrat 914 00:38:12,540 --> 00:38:14,940 or someone who values the LGBT community and you think 915 00:38:14,940 --> 00:38:17,160 well, my vote for president's not gonna matter 916 00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:18,630 so I'm not gonna vote, 917 00:38:18,630 --> 00:38:20,760 but your vote does matter for the city council, 918 00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:22,290 it does matter for the school board 919 00:38:22,290 --> 00:38:23,340 or the state legislature, 920 00:38:23,340 --> 00:38:26,220 or even the treasurer of our state. 921 00:38:26,220 --> 00:38:27,660 And so you have that ability 922 00:38:27,660 --> 00:38:30,333 to have an outweighed impact with your vote. 923 00:38:30,333 --> 00:38:32,970 - You know, and I wanna make this point. 924 00:38:32,970 --> 00:38:37,140 We saw, like most states, this run on school boards. 925 00:38:37,140 --> 00:38:39,000 By that, I mean people who wanted to come 926 00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:43,140 and basically turn the agenda in schools upside down, 927 00:38:43,140 --> 00:38:46,680 you know, do a witch hunt into the school libraries, 928 00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:49,320 demonize school librarians. 929 00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:51,960 And we had two very prominent 930 00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:54,450 kind of challenges both in Fargo and Grand Forks, 931 00:38:54,450 --> 00:38:56,370 and when good people stepped up 932 00:38:56,370 --> 00:38:59,340 and said, "Nah, you know, this is my kid's school, 933 00:38:59,340 --> 00:39:01,350 I'm gonna challenge you," 934 00:39:01,350 --> 00:39:02,183 you know, guess what? 935 00:39:02,183 --> 00:39:03,990 It's not the radicals who won. 936 00:39:03,990 --> 00:39:05,610 It's not the people who, 937 00:39:05,610 --> 00:39:08,340 I mean the people who don't believe in public education, 938 00:39:08,340 --> 00:39:10,710 just want a power base to spout 939 00:39:10,710 --> 00:39:15,300 their hardcore, anti-human rights agendas. 940 00:39:15,300 --> 00:39:17,790 But it takes a lot of guts and it takes a lot of help. 941 00:39:17,790 --> 00:39:19,920 And so my solution is 942 00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:22,710 all of you out there who wanna see change, 943 00:39:22,710 --> 00:39:24,810 you know, these changes don't happen 944 00:39:24,810 --> 00:39:25,980 when you elect a president. 945 00:39:25,980 --> 00:39:28,650 These changes happen when you elect a school board, 946 00:39:28,650 --> 00:39:30,150 when you elect a city council, 947 00:39:30,150 --> 00:39:32,460 when you elect your state legislatures, 948 00:39:32,460 --> 00:39:34,080 when you elect the governor. 949 00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:36,360 So Josh, really appreciate you coming on. 950 00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:37,410 Thanks so much. 951 00:39:37,410 --> 00:39:38,610 - Thanks, Heidi, it's been a pleasure 952 00:39:38,610 --> 00:39:41,037 and look forward to continuing to hear the podcast. 953 00:39:41,037 --> 00:39:43,290 (upbeat music) 954 00:39:43,290 --> 00:39:44,670 - Well, we've made it to the end 955 00:39:44,670 --> 00:39:46,920 of another episode of "The Hot Dish". 956 00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:49,110 Thanks, Josh, for joining me today. 957 00:39:49,110 --> 00:39:51,360 Let us know what you think, listeners, 958 00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:53,700 and we want your suggestions too. 959 00:39:53,700 --> 00:39:55,050 You could email us at 960 00:39:55,050 --> 00:39:59,040 podcast@onecountryproject.org, 961 00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:03,270 that's podcast@onecountryproject.org, 962 00:40:03,270 --> 00:40:04,800 and tell us what you think. 963 00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:06,600 - Thank you for joining us today on "The Hot Dish". 964 00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:08,137 We're so glad you listened. 965 00:40:08,137 --> 00:40:10,800 "The Hot Dish" is brought to you by One Country Project, 966 00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:12,930 elevating the needs of rural America. 967 00:40:12,930 --> 00:40:15,540 Learn more at onecountryproject.com. 968 00:40:15,540 --> 00:40:18,570 - We'll be back in two weeks with more hot dish comfort food 969 00:40:18,570 --> 00:40:20,632 for middle America. 970 00:40:20,632 --> 00:40:24,049 (upbeat music continues) 971 00:40:30,558 --> 00:40:31,740 (energetic music) 972 00:40:31,740 --> 00:40:32,573 - Hot topic.