Sam: Hello and welcome to the 10,000 things.
My name is Sam Ellis.
I'm Joe Loh.
Ali: And I'm Ali Catramados
Joe: today on the show, a bit of a thought experiment.
I think of your favorite film.
And you will find according to Alexandra, Catramados.
That you identify.
With the main character.
Um, so you can
Ali: usually ask the question without that.
So
Joe: you just say, think of your favorite films.
And then pause.
So you're not rocking
Ali: that decision informed.
Oh, I fucked it.
Yeah.
You're making that like, oh, what's my, like, what's my favorite movie.
And then going back and realizing, oh, that's why.
Relate to those.
Characters.
Yeah.
Sam: In hindsight it's clearer.
Ali: Yes.
Yeah, but you're not.
Your decision is not clouded by it all.
Like I want to pick a cool movie because I want to be perceived as cool.
You're picking a movie just based on honest answers.
Honest answers that you love,
Sam: which VHS did you wear out?
Yeah.
Ali: Yeah.
Sam: Mm.
Yeah.
And you know, what did you take off TV?
Not once, but twice.
And then
Ali: given that over and over again, we've
Joe: out again.
And then given that this is a deeply intellectual show.
Some deep psychological truths will be revealed.
Correct.
When we now discuss what our favorite films.
That's right, right.
Is that the concept for this episode?
Yes.
Ali: When I, I thought about it and I started rattling off my favorite movies,
I, it sent me into a downward spiral.
Well, you had some.
The themes.
It was consistent, obvious.
Joe: Right.
If I had to think of my favorite film, I'd probably say pulp fiction,
which is an ensemble cast that doesn't have a main character.
Sam: Oh, there's plenty to relay.
There's plenty to plenty of people.
Straight away.
I guess, you
Joe: know, Ali's theories in the toilet, but.
To play the game.
Uh, no one made me think.
Maybe think of.
Three things.
Do you want me to, I was going to slowly eat them out over
the episode, but I'll tell ya.
So Edward Furlong, Terminator two.
Here we go.
Not that I identified with him cause he has so much more of a bad-ass.
To be him probably.
Yeah.
Sam: He was cool.
Joe: Yeah.
I mean, he's the one who actually said hasta LA Vista, baby, To, to a girl
and he's like 13 and he got money.
Out of an ATM.
Easier.
The baby.
Yeah.
Like he was the coolest teenager.
So cleared ever so cool.
So with hair and his eyes and all that shit.
So definitely.
Terminated twos.
Very close to my favorite film ever.
Yes.
And I guess Edward fell along about the same age as me at
that time, but much cooler.
Yeah.
The other one was when I served, saw the matrix.
Yup.
Uh, and I was on acid.
Yeah.
The first time in the cinema.
That would have been a.
Hell.
Yeah.
And obviously Neo.
Yeah, and I think.
Sam: Oh, Morpheus.
I like, I kind of want it to be more,
Joe: Neo's kind of stayed with me as.
The chosen one.
You know, the one that's going to say through the matrix.
Well, We've had the Keanu sons' yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like.
See.
What really what's really going on and then save the world.
I.
That's
Ali: the saving the world.
It seems to be the theme like your, the.
You're the one, then it's going to save the world with your enormous capabilities.
That's right.
And it's
Joe: caused me a lot of grief as an adult to approach the world like.
Ditch that, and then the other one that, that came to me was less samurai.
French film.
Oh yeah.
And it's like a Hitman.
Yeah.
Costello, his name
Sam: is, um, late nineties.
Joe: Oh, the
Sam: sixties.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
And I think I watched it in the late nineties.
Joe: Yeah, the samurai and he's really cool and detached
and where's the cool hat.
And no one really knows what's going on with him and he's not trying to
solve the problems of the world.
Ali: They're all very cool character.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Something just.
Being your friend and knowing that that's something you actually value.
Joe: Cool.
And Kate very
Sam: keen and capable.
Yeah.
Joe: I would say coolness is very close to my
Sam: highest value.
And I think cinema and coolness are inextricable.
Like,
Joe: yeah, they've always.
The attachment that I.
I haven't achieved, you know, John Connor saving the world status.
I haven't achieved.
Neo seeing through the matrix, being the one status.
And I'm way too emotional and open to be super cool.
Like a Hitman with a hat.
But the detachment.
Of the Hitman is the closest I've come to in real life.
Is that I can be quite detached from my own life.
And not in a healthy way.
No, but.
You know, it's funny doing this podcast.
I think something my therapist said to me a couple of days is.
Yeah, it seems like you're okay being heard, but you
really don't want to be seen.
Oh, like strongly perceived.
Um, so this guy, Jeff Costello is walking around in this film and he, you see him
as the coolest looking guy ever, but he's also able to fade into the background.
Yeah.
Sam: What about you, Sam?
Oh, no.
That's really interesting.
I'm going to psychoanalyze the, just for a moment longer before I throw
in anything but that, so the first movie you liked when you were 12.
You know, Eddie and it, you know, you and Eddie, both sort of similar age.
And then Neo when you're like 18, 19.
Joe: Yeah.
Sam: Right.
And then this other guy, what age?
Joe: Uh, Jessica Stella or whatever, mid twenties, but that's the one
I've gone back to the interesting.
I don't go back anymore and watch Terminator two or the matrix.
No, but I'll go back and watch lists MRI and be like, wow,
this is a fucking cool film.
And I've got, you know, other samurai.
Poster up on my wall and.
Sam: I think I can almost picture it.
Yeah.
So I think all of that makes a lot of sense and you can see the evolving needs.
You know, John is.
Young.
And cool.
And that's the aspirational part he's capable.
That's also aspirational and he's, but here's where the relate here's where the.
You would have related to him because.
Because there's problems with these parents, he's there and he's in
foster care and he's vulnerable.
He's very vulnerable, even though he is very capable.
He's also very vulnerable.
He's in a very dangerous situation.
So maybe there's a bit to relate to as well as aspire to.
You know, cause there are some people who say the matrix is.
Yeah, well, some people take it quite literally and have
gone down the simulation.
With it.
Yeah.
And
Ali: then like, yeah.
Obsession with reality.
Yes.
And where you sort of drifted, I suppose, where your mind has gone during the post.
Yeah.
Alternate sort of.
Psychosis is.
Joe: Psychosis is a lot more like
Sam: the Truman show.
Yeah.
Uh, which was a movie that came out around the same time.
Had the same impact.
Joe: The one that's that's.
Probably my favorite film in terms of film.
I want to watch tonight with some mates is the big Lebowski.
Sure.
Yes.
And Jeff Lebowski is actually the character I'm by far
the most like, of course of.
Eddie film character, probably you are
Sam: a lot like the dude.
If
Joe: I only went back to smoking weed, I'd pretty much.
I mean,
Sam: I like bowling, whereas I'm more, whereas I'm more like
Donnie or Walter, I'm afraid.
Yeah.
Joe: No, not really.
You're not hapless, like, like Dani.
Uh, no, no, I'm probably.
Continue with your cycle analysis.
It's really taken me back to film theory, 2002
Sam: man with the, well, I could never understand the obsession in
film theory because I did a bit of it in English and cultural studies.
And I couldn't understand why they kept banging on about psychoanalysis.
And then all these years later, I'm like, oh no, I get it now.
so of all the, so the, basically the theory.
There's an important little piece of academic theory.
Always get it out the way real quick that all art should be psychoanalyzed.
Right.
But.
That there's something about film that is the most.
Rich symbolically and it's got, it's got the most.
Kind of projection and fantasy and, It's richly, richly psychoanalytical in a
way that novels, which were seen as the pinnacle of psychoanalytic technology at
one time, you know, the novel, cause it.
You know, first person consciousness and really just exploring.
It was the state of the art of exploring consciousness at one time.
Right.
Then cinema comes along and it's like, oh no, no, no.
You're going to see, you're going to see.
The foyer, the voice.
So there's so much going on.
It's not just the Voya aspect, although that's incredibly important.
It's.
The also the simultaneous, the placing the projecting of the self
into which is separate to the voice.
That's.
And as you're
Joe: watching.
Your self.
Disappears.
Yes.
And you merge with the screen ideally, and you forget that
you're surrounded by people.
Like all of that.
So that's, I mean, I bang on about the self being an illusion, but
the best way to probably experience that in the world still is to.
Being grossed in a film.
Sam: Yes.
One of the great attractions of truly excellent cinema and I
include like an action movie in this or the most subtly bittersweet.
drama.
They can both achieve the same thing of Co creating complete
identification with what's happening and the people and you are.
Uh, raised.
Uh, effectively.
That's right.
Yeah.
And you experienced that one sense of oneness.
Yeah, with all other humans, which is a very cool thing for.
The only thing that's
Joe: not cool about that it's like is that you have to come back.
Oh, it's brutal.
You know, That also, I haven't been able to enter that state.
No movies.
These aren't doing it for you before.
COVID.
I haven't dropped away.
The self hasn't dropped away.
It drops away in meditation, but it doesn't drop away in a cinema anymore.
When's the last one that, oh, man.
Ah, maybe nomad land actually.
In the cinema, highly praised.
Sam: Yeah.
Anyway, back to the.
The psychoanalysis of you.
So we had to get the academic footnote out
Joe: the way.
uh, bear in mind that obviously listeners to this have never met me.
And I have no idea who I am.
So you're going to speak very clear with any.
Biographical details.
Okay.
It's not like we just make this show and then just our friends.
Listen.
Sam: Yeah.
That's right.
Well, just to be clear right now, Joe is wearing a Ray ban
wayfarers and a matching tracksuits.
So it's already pretty cinematic.
And he's holding, he's holding a microphone.
I mean, You can see how tightly.
His life has been bonded.
Boundary with film.
And now w why don't you discovered spirituality though?
See, this is where I was getting back to Neo.
There's the literalist rating of the matrix, right?
The simulation bros, because they usually are.
and then you've got the kind of political reading.
I think the, probably the most interesting area to get into with.
Sort of the, the readings of the matrix, the ones that I
sort of got to at the end of it.
The psychoanalytic one.
And the psychosis hallucination and so on mental health.
Type.
It's an exploration of consciousness.
And also of, uh, you know, that phenomenology and meditation
and all that kind of stuff.
And that seeing through.
We're seeing three reality or seeing reality in a different way and like, okay,
we're not living in a simulation, but we're experiencing it as a simulation.
And then, you know, meditation is.
You know, as Joe can attest, he's gone further with it than me.
That you've penetrated the.
The Curt, like the veil you've gotten you've you've drawn the veil.
Aside.
On more than one.
Through
Joe: is a term commonly used in the meditations that I do.
Seeing through, which is that's what the whole gut, the whole name of the game in
the matrix is to see through the matrix.
Yeah.
Right.
And.
I would say that in my actual life, that's how I see the separate self.
As this, this persistent illusion, a projection, a projection.
Just keeps re reappearing and reappearing and reappearing, but
it's, it's, it's actually not real.
So I need to try and see through it, but it's methodical process to try to
see through it again and again, and eventually from what I'm told you.
You know, you do see through it.
And also the Buddhist.
If you want to talk about the matrix.
I heard someone who's studied.
Embolism say.
that once you understand impermanence Hmm.
And permanent is so thorough going.
It's so it's a total.
Theory, even in permanence.
This isn't real.
Yes.
Even in this there's so little permanence that yeah.
Even in permanent doesn't capture it.
Yeah.
You can go really far with it.
That's and that's the concrete, that's two and a half thousand
years to put us thought.
Talking about impermanence and you know, so that's not
saying we live in a simulation.
But it's saying that what we take to be fixed real solid.
It's just not that.
Sam: Yeah, that's right.
And I think cinema is actually really good.
At both creating these surface realities and dispelling them and
penetrating them at the same time.
Joe: Phenomenological experience at Northlands in 1999.
Yeah.
On my own on half a tab of acid.
Watching the fucking matrix.
Hard hitting.
Without even knowing much about it and that.
But hell by the time I got out of there.
Yeah.
I felt like that seems
Sam: point break.
Joe: Yeah.
Maybe it's coming back to me now that feeling.
Being a savior or whatever.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
You know, like, so as much as I said, your theory was in the toilet, Allie,
and we'll have to get onto you too guys.
Sam: Endorsing it.
Yeah.
Joe: Well, it's deeply rich.
It's.
Psychologically, very rich.
Actually, if I think back to how I felt walking out of the matrix and
how I've approached my life and, and the problem I have with the news is
that I can't read the news without imagining myself in some heroic role.
Yes.
Yeah.
It's coming between two warring sides.
The illusion
Sam: of the separate self right there.
Yeah.
Joe: Right.
So I can't really engage with the news.
Why?
Because of my grandiosity.
Because I don't take myself to be.
A citizen of Australia living in Melbourne.
I take myself to be someone who just might be about to get a phone
call from the white house, you know?
Oh, well, How do we got to sort this out?
Well, actually, Thinking about this a lot.
That's right.
And about the middle east is so yeah.
I'm glad you guys
Sam: called.
Joe: Yeah.
Yeah, that's right.
that's another illusion that I'm working on, man, but this
is an illusion that cinema
Sam: implants.
In all of us.
The hero.
Yeah.
The
Joe: hero's journey.
I know it's it worked until it did it, you know?
Yes.
So now I just need to abandon that.
Bogging the software.
Kind of thing.
You know,
Sam: uh, so.
What did you ever get into realist cinema?
Like, uh, you know, social realists, that kind of stuff?
Or were you more about the.
Fantastic.
Joe: Yeah.
Yeah.
I love all that shit.
Yeah.
I've been, I loved all that shit.
I've lost my relationship with cinema in the last five years.
Completely like com.
It feels
Sam: like it's a done deal for now.
Joe: Not.
Yeah.
I might come back, man.
Why come back, you.
You know, 20 years, but I, whatever, I'm just letting it go for now.
Sam: That's the, and that's the Buddhist way, like, yeah,
don't be clinging just, yeah.
Yeah, it ain't, it ain't.
Joe: If I get, I mean, I don't have enough time to, to do the meditation practices.
I've got them backing up.
Um, on my app that I want to sit and spend hours actually
going through these practices.
Talk about the real stuff.
Yeah, I know.
I don't let myself get distracted by my phone or whatever, but.
Yeah, kind of the real cinema.
Kind of sobbing.
I'm not saying I'm spiritually enlightened.
Or even.
I can't even prove a spiritual experience, but something happened where.
Meditation started to be this.
It's not a form of entertainment, but.
Became incredibly nourishing.
Yes.
But cinema, I became I'd watch it and think I couldn't suspend disbelief.
This.
An
Sam: actor I've been struggling with this for a long time.
Joe: Came into reality.
Too much.
Yeah.
Like somehow, like, I meditated my way into a reality where
I can't just pretend anymore.
Yeah.
And I'm like, oh, why is this so violent?
I can't watch a fictional violence.
I don't lie.
Obviously.
Uh, terminated to the whole world gets blown up.
Yeah.
Fiction.
It's a series of grizzly torture and murder and yeah.
When I was a teenager, I loved.
Very nihilistic.
Sam: Very nihilistic text.
Joe: Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
So I've just.
I may be getting older and more sentimental or whatever.
I just don't want to watch.
I do
Sam: not want to either.
Joe: Whereas in the twenties, it was a.
Sam: It was fun.
Joe: It was cool.
It was coolest fucking thing.
Did you see
Sam: the way they blew that guy's head off or the best?
Joe: Yeah.
Yeah.
Like.
I think it was Terentino's he said like, ladder.
The language of violence is the language of American cinema.
He's not wrong.
That's what we
Sam: do.
Yeah.
Jen, Janet Jackson can have a titty out on the Superbowl halftime
show and it brings the world.
Well to an end.
Yeah, but like, yeah, let's just like in, at Tara that same Tarantino film,
you know, where they accidentally shoot Marvin in the backseat.
That actually really did.
Shock me made me feel awful, but for days.
Oh, I just thought it was cool.
It was fuck, but yeah, that's right.
So then none of that's a big deal.
I
Joe: think it's a lack of mortality at 80 cents of mortality.
When you're 21.
part fiction came out.
Yeah, but like you can see someone's head, we blow it off.
Oh, that's funny.
But now like, fuck it.
I'm going to die too.
And that.
Ali: Too real.
But also like
Joe: respectful
Sam: life.
Yeah.
Ali: Potentially the timeline of when you started to switch off from these things.
And like you said, during the pandemic, that was actually a very real threat to
Sam: cinema.
Ali: Well, yeah, but also to our existing.
And mortality.
So perhaps it's yeah.
The things you've now chosen to engage with and not engage with has also
shifted because your perception of yeah.
Mortality's changed.
Joe: Yeah.
I think that's right.
I think there was, there was a moment when there was a wave of COVID hitting
Melbourne and, uh, The bodies were stacking up in Italy, as you said, and.
Sure.
I read something about, I dunno, it was like a healthy guy in his thirties,
in Melbourne getting COVID and dying.
Yeah.
And, uh,
in my, uh, 40 group chat.
It was like, for some reason that turned into like a COVID
panic fucking group chat.
And I was like, yeah, I can imagine.
Say something about that.
And he quoted, I think it was Albert Chino from heat.
Right back.
He's like
Sam: you can die walking a little, little doggy.
Yeah, that's right.
That's right.
Yeah.
Joe: Y fuck.
I'm in my forties that I'd never really thought about how I
Sam: could just die.
You can die on the Eastern freeway on your way to the Westfield.
Joe: That's it.
And I was like, dude, so I've got, you know, between now when I die, I've
got a fuck ton of work to do around.
It's 10 sensing and experiencing mine mortality.
Ironically Jeff Costello from, uh, Le samurai at the end,
he commits suicide by cop.
Sam: Well, I was going to say, cause he's a death dealer, this character.
And he walks
Joe: into his own death.
And it just lets it happen.
And it's mysterious to this day.
You know why he does that in that film?
You know?
Sam: Well, I think one can speculate.
I think it's got to do with an acknowledgement.
That his life is.
Joe: It hadn't seen the film.
Sam: No, I think I did see it in the late nineties.
I think.
I
Joe: can say I've had a theory on literally anything.
No,
Sam: no.
I think I saw this film because it was.
Thinking of a Hitman maybe.
Professional professional.
Sorry, John.
Joe: Yes.
Now the French film about a Hitman.
Yes.
Sam: Yes.
And.
Joe: Good film too.
And her
Sam: whole family has been killed and she says, yeah, So John Reno is.
She's 12 or whatever.
Is it always like this, or just when you're a kid.
And for the first time in the film, he doesn't know what to
do and he's just standing there.
And then he says,
No, always like this in
Joe: the
Sam: professional.
Yeah.
And then they go on to have an inappropriate relationship.
Yeah, but so warning, if you watch that, so just watch out
for that, but there are some.
There were some, I didn't actually pick up on that whole side of the
film to me, it was about this guy who's capable of killing people.
And now has two.
Deal with the fact that he there's this human, that really
is a witness to something and should just be gotten rid of.
But yeah, he can't do that.
So, you know, it's the beginning of his hero's journey of, embracing life
and, What is it like to be a Hitman?
Like that's not really the question.
The question that's asking is.
What does life mean?
to anyone, but if you were capable of killing somebody and if that's how you.
Made your own living.
What does that mean?
so it's, you know, it is about a Hitman, but it's, it's,
it's kind of about this idea.
Idea of like What problems are ever solved by going around whacking people and at
the real problems of life consist in.
Life itself rather than ending like.
That life presents problems.
And that.
Have you finished your analysis of many of the matrix.
Yeah, pretty much.
Well, did I think you did ha I think he did have you your Neo moment in the end.
Yeah, and, and that you can bring a message back for the world.
Joe: The only time I've done anything heroic that I can think of.
Is where my eldest daughter got out of the shower.
There was no bathmat.
Yeah.
Flipped over.
She smashed her head.
Yeah.
An hour later, she was not making any sense.
Delirious.
Rushed her to the hospital.
And the doctors were talking about possible bleeding on the brain.
They didn't know what was going on.
She didn't know who I was.
And my heroic act was to sit there with her.
Be calm.
And wait for something to happen.
Over submerged threw up all over me.
And then she snapped out and said, oh dad, where am I?
Yeah.
That's the closest I've ever come to be a hero was rushing my daughter to
the hospital and keeping it together.
Well, when the doctors were not really keeping together, they didn't really
know what was going on with her.
Oh, that's terrifying.
That's real, absolutely terrifying, but real heroism.
Yeah.
And afterwards the nurses said why he did a great job.
He stayed really calm.
Yeah.
And for someone who was told at 19, then I'm a bit defective.
I've got a mental illness to do something very adult.
Vaguely heroic.
and then, you know, there was protests and there was propaganda films and
it was all this shit, but actual.
Heroism just getting my.
Daughter to the hospital on time.
Yeah, big time.
So that's, it's actually.
Yeah, no, one's going to come and ask me to save the world.
No, that detachment
Sam: that you, that detachment you sometimes are good at, well, it can be
handy in those circumstances, right?
And, and, and also.
Can I say that.
So many parents in that situation, make it about them without realizing it.
And so well done.
Like the nurses,
Joe: man, nothing like a pat on the back from a fucking.
They see it all and
Ali: everything.
Sam: And they say a lot of parents who.
They have to help as much as yeah.
They basically said that.
Yeah.
Joe: Yeah.
Anyway, what's your favorite film, Sam?
Sam: So the thin red line.
Joe: Oh, one of my favorites.
Sam: Yeah, And obviously Jim Caviezel is a bit of a nutcase these days, but, I think
he turned in a really good performance and shout out to my mate, Eric, who
is one of the extras in that film.
He.
P a P is in several scenes is just one of many.
Soldiers moving.
And, you know, a good, a good effort from Terrence Malick.
Who's done a few good ones over the years worth checking out his catalog, because
he deals a lot of things, you and I do.
We all DKI, you know, the consciousness and, you know, the experience.
Of, uh, reality and all the human beings.
And what's it all about?
But I think.
I think I kind of admired.
Wit.
Because He was sort of a little bit detached and a little bit.
Innocent and sort a little bit gormless and.
you know, it was very much just thrown into this situation and.
I really liked Sean Penn's character of, you know, who was trying to
like ground him in reality, you know, like there's just this
rock, Like It's like, oh no, man.
I just want to like jump off the ship and swim to the islands and just.
You know, just eat a banana and just like, watch the locals, just hang out.
What's this war at the heart of nature.
That's right.
Why does it vibe with itself?
Joe: Yes, fuck.
That's a good, I could almost be my favorite film of all time.
Sam: And of course, you know, So you,
Joe: you relate to someone is off.
Heading the clouds.
Oh,
Sam: very much.
Joe: They're looking at the biggest possible picture, even though
they're faced with their own.
Totally.
Sam: Yeah.
And Vera.
And very much like.
Zoom out.
Joe: Yeah.
It was annoying degree where you lose.
No resolution.
And it's like, oh,
Sam: Zoom in man.
It's absolutely true.
And I think come to think of it.
I guess I'm about when I first saw that film, I would have been about the
age of the character and Ali's theory.
Yeah.
And 18, 19 20 thereabouts, because there were just, I mean, In the Pacific,
because there were just these kids.
Um, getting off boats and getting blown to pieces in seconds or
drowning with a full backpack of gear.
And.
And just many of them.
Affectively conscripts and just complete innocence, knew nothing about the world.
Next thing they know they're in the middle of fucking epic war in the Pacific.
Like it's crazy to think about.
And what would I be like in that situation?
Absolutely.
Just like that.
Trying to get away from the present reality by going to the.
The absolute and the, the big picture and the cosmic and.
Cause, cause he's not.
Like he did.
The character is a degree, has a degree of spiritual enlightenment, which I think
I admired, but really he's trying to deal with mortality like everybody else.
And Sean, Penn's trying to deal with it by being super realistic and.
Which Jim Caviezel, his character is trying to deal with it by.
by meditating on, you know, what's it really all about?
And I'm trying to see the beauty in things.
But then it's interesting at the end of the film without spoiling anything that
he, uh, Has to take action and to save his own life and does so basically, and he's
capable of rising to the, to the occasion.
but he doesn't take any pleasure in killing anybody.
And there are characters in the film that do.
And.
It's sort of like a series of vignettes of, you know, the M
the ambitious officer who hasn't.
Gotten far enough in his career and.
The officer who doesn't want to risk the lives of any of his men.
And.
all the way down to this private who just sort of doesn't.
Yeah, it's not really engaging with reality.
And so, yeah, so I think there was something in that.
Would the film have the same impact on me now?
Prob.
Maybe not.
Joe: So when I think of the film, I think of long grass is blowing into weighing
Sam: in the breeze.
Nice little shots.
Joe: Relate.
A deep, psychological level to a connection with nature.
Did you grow up in somewhat in nature or.
Oh, yeah, sure.
Lots of Bush walks.
Sam: Yeah.
And, and I think I very much.
Was a romantic and you know, the, as in Capitola, And, you know,
words worth and landscapes and.
I think I was totally all in on the simplistic binary of nature civilization.
the untouched and the spoil and so on.
Now I don't look at the world that way at all.
I see.
The
Joe: fucking myth.
It is nice.
Yes.
Sam: Yeah.
It's fucking nature.
Well, yes, I think we could do with less concrete.
Uh, but it's not.
Sorry, that's a sidetrack.
Uh, grass is as important, you know, people.
I
Joe: realized that I was like, this is a con, this is actually why I.
I see it's part of nature and
Sam: there's no such thing as untouched wilderness.
There's always Virgin and wilderness.
Joe: And this isn't, maybe isn't the best idea.
What do European
Sam: white men want to do with virgins?
You know, let's think about it for a second.
And, uh, or anyone, any, any people could.
The colonizers, not just white, but certainly, yeah.
Joe: I can't think of a single film that captures the yeah.
the romance of nature.
Oh, absolutely because it's in the contract context of a war, but.
yeah,
Sam: we're buddies, but yes, but I will say this about Malik
that he's not falling for.
The, like the nature is the Virgin fallacy.
Like it.
It's brutal.
That's right.
And he's.
And he's locating.
This is not an, this is not a timeless, untouched, primitive landscape.
No, no.
What he's saying is.
There were people here already.
Who have lived a certain way on this landscape?
And then there's these other people that came from somewhere else.
And brought this other reality and landed it on top of these people.
And that's just the 20th century foyer.
Like it.
It was a hell of a ride.
It's sort of what he's saying, I think, and then this is great, but at the
Emory, you know, this is a, and then I w like, we're all just sparks from
one big fire or something like that.
I was like, yeah, that's cool.
So much great writing in that.
A lot of great writing.
Joe: I like it.
Yeah.
Yeah, you are.
Somewhat off.
With the fairies.
Sam: Yeah, absolutely.
And then, well, here's two more examples that would serve,
Joe: But you're not supposed to think about it.
What's your favorite film of all time?
Oh, straight down the line.
Sam: See that struggle for immersion that you've had in more recent years, I've
experienced that all the way through.
Joe: You were never a film school kid.
Uh, yeah.
But
Sam: like an English nerd, but also when I was 10 years old.
I was constantly like, but wait a minute.
Who's that?
Where did they come from?
Or I'd be, or if I learned to shut up eventually, but I'd be like, I'll be
like, but like, but where did they live?
What does he do for a job?
How does anyone, how did they suddenly get.
I'm just like too many unanswered questions.
Not good for that.
Well, I'm glad one film thin red line came along and
Joe: blew your mind.
Sam: Yeah.
Oh, man.
I had another good one a while ago, but yeah, Ellie, We w we were chatting.
There was a lot of, let me see.
There was some Barbara Streisand.
There was some, uh, Yeah.
Ali: So this is, I mean, I do like old movies and I guess.
Watching them.
It was a really nice thing that my mum would do with,
cause my mum loves old movies.
So it was always a thing like where they used to show them
on the ABC on a Friday night.
But then my mom also collected old movies.
And so we would, so she exposed us to a lot of.
yeah.
Old movies and like from the thirties and forties, Oh, really?
Yeah.
So the first Lucky's.
Lucky's yeah.
So the melodrama.
So the first one.
That I remember watching was Stella Dallas with Barbara Stanwyck and it's
this woman who, she sort of, you would say like a bit tacky, a bit trashy.
And she meets this very sophisticated and very handsome and lovely man
and falls, madly in love with him.
And.
And they have a baby and it's.
But ultimately they've come from such two different worlds that, you know, that.
The relationship sort of breaks down.
And she's got this beautiful daughter and it just sort of shows her moving
through life on her own after the breakup and what she sacrifices.
For her daughter to be able to have that life that she knows would be best for her.
there's just.
At the same, which I shared, I think in the group chat where she's standing.
You know, in the rain, the rain looking through like the gates, watching her.
Daughter get married, finally get married and like, you know, and she's looking
really bedraggled and, and, you know, the police offers like police officer comes
up instead of getting them to move along.
And she's like, I just want to see a kiss him.
Oh, I'm going to start crying.
Yeah, it just, it was so this woman who was sort of a bit tacky and
ridiculous, and there was something.
so aspirational but all about her, but also at the same time, really realistic.
And like I said, sacrificing her own happiness for her.
Child's happiness.
Which I, and I watched that, uh, quite a young age, but.
even now, still thinking about it.
There is something that I obviously identified with.
And then.
If we're thinking then.
And that when I was a little bit older, I watched now voyage out with, bet Davis.
And she plays like someone who's basically had a nervous breakdown.
Um, she lives with a really controlling mother.
she's sort of, Hamot a shut-in, but she finally gets the.
courage to go on this cruise and then falls in love with a married man.
and it obviously doesn't work out.
And it's just, again, this tragedy and sacrificing her own happiness
to take care of her mother.
And then
Sam: themes emerging
Ali: themes are emerging.
And then I would say like probably my favorite and the one
that I've watched more than any other, because I love a musical.
I love, again, the melodrama of Eddie's Barbara Streisand in funny go.
Yeah, that's great.
She she's absolutely brilliant in it.
And So it's based on Fanny.
Brice is real.
You know, actress and.
yes, she sort of makes a name for herself being this daggy awkward.
But very talented.
Um, star, but she does not look like the other women, like the
other women or the tall leggy.
You know, beautiful sort of, you know, actresses on the stage, you know, singing
and stuff, but she's got this incredible voice, but she's, she's hamming it up.
She's taking control of.
The joke, like the very famous scene where.
When she first comes out.
The
Sam: brassy one, not the.
Classy.
So
Ali: like he wants her to play it, you know, like, you know, you're supposed
to be this beautiful bride and she comes out on stage with a pillow, shoved
up under a dress as she's a pregnant bride and she's, and everyone's sort of
like shocked, but she's like, I can't pretend to be beautiful because I'm not.
but she also, she owns it and then she becomes wildly successful.
And again, Falls for man.
Sam: I don't know,
Ali: Riddled with, he's a gambler.
He.
Loses all his money.
There's like all this pride she had, all she wants to do is support him.
She she's willing to sacrifice this amazing career.
for him because she just wants to be with him and, Ultimately he, and he ends up
going to jail and she ends up putting, She, she puts her life on hold and she's
willing, she's waiting there for him.
And she's like, I will be there when you come out.
But he sort of is like, no, I can't.
And breaks our heart.
And the scene at the end where she's seeing, you know, my man, that song.
Okay.
I love it, you know, and she's singing about like, yeah, that she
would just do anything for him and sacrifice her own happiness and.
I just, like I said, I started to thinking about these movies.
Um, Head in a bit of a down one spot.
It's like, okay.
I'm.
Like I need, even if I think of other ones, like.
Yeah,
Joe: so sacrificing for the sun sacrificing.
The mother is very strong.
For the partner?
Yes.
Yeah,
Ali: like you're willing to put your happiness on hold.
Jesus.
Yeah, and I.
If I look at the patterns of my relationships and.
Relationships within my family relationships within.
Oh, Without getting too much into a trauma history of the things that I have done.
To protect your family.
Yes.
that it was a great cost to myself.
It's something that I very much relate to and whether it was, you know, putting
my dreams on hold to support our partner.
Um, whether it was, yeah, like I said, making those sacrifices to
protect a family member, whether it was Prioritizing other people's.
Health and wellbeing above my own.
And.
It's like, oh,
Sam: This is strong stuff.
Yes.
It's strong stuff like.
I
Ali: identify with cause and all of those characters as well.
There's sort of an ugliness to the women in.
Yes.
Like, you know, Barbara Streisand plays like this.
Uh, you know, sort of awkward and attract.
Yeah.
Sam: Flattering.
Yeah.
Like she's not, she's
Ali: not the beautiful one.
The same as like when, um, you know, bet Davis is on the cruise and stuff.
She buys a few nice outfits and she sort of makes the most of herself,
but she's not, she's supposed to be quite a homely sort of.
Yeah.
And even, and yeah, Stella.
It's a hard
Sam: sell with Betty Davis.
Same with
Ali: Barbara.
Stanwyck.
She's a stunningly beautiful woman.
But, yeah, there's a scene where she's walking through a golf course and these
young kids are like laughing header and calling her like a Christmas tree
because she's jangling because she's got so many accessories on and she's yeah.
So this trashy.
Yeah.
This woman.
And there's something that I've, I think it
Sam: relates to that.
I'm like, that looks
Ali: like a manic episode she's wearing like, yeah.
Fad jacket and all the jewelry and stuff.
And I'm like, oh God.
Sorry.
Yeah, I really, I was like, Ooh, I really.
That's interesting.
Yeah.
I just think things to identify with that.
Sam: And you called it a downward spiral.
I had
Ali: a bit of panic about like, oh God, how have I moved on from this?
I feel like I've been in therapy.
Have I moved off?
But I still love these movies or is it that there.
Fundamentally ingrained into me, like.
That I have, I've had a similar experience that I can relate to.
Over my life and how those changing sort of similar, like yeah,
self-sacrifice being the theme.
But in different ways.
Yeah.
Sam: I think there's so much in it.
felt privileged to witness.
It's a rare thing outside of therapy.
And you witnessing yourself in therapy, having a breakthrough to
see someone else really putting the pieces together, like before your
eyes it's was so-called And it really confirmed, like I said, I couldn't see.
I didn't quite understand why psychoanalysis was so important when
talking about cinema when I was 19.
Yeah.
Now I get it.
And it is such a clear demonstration of so many things that are going on,
but it just raises as many questions.
for example, The most pressing question I think is.
To use a term from the conspiracy community.
Predictive programming.
Ali: So, where are
Sam: these films?
Exploring and acknowledging the pain and sacrifice and loyalty of these women.
And calling that heroism and in the process.
So are they acknowledging the suffering of women or are they creating it?
And it's in some
Ali: ways socializing.
Yeah.
From a young age to believe that that is the thing to do.
Correct.
But you were shown hundreds
Joe: of movies and you chose three.
Ali: True.
Joe: Your mom, didn't say what his movie on repeat until you
learn how no, it doesn't matter.
But at some
Sam: point, even if your self programming is sort of, who's imposing, it is
sort of in a sense, not important, but, but you are right Joe, that.
There's no denying.
Allie was drawn to these at a young age.
Okay.
So, which, and I enter
Ali: in.
In all fairness, like with my history, the sacrifice started at a very young age.
Yeah, well,
Sam: that's what.
This
Joe: is Millie over.
Like once your son grows up and lose out, do you think.
Yeah.
We're into a new,
Ali: yeah.
That's certainly something.
Joe: We still have.
Something over you.
Yeah.
Make you feel bad if you don't go to such and such.
Ali: Ruling emotions.
Like guilt.
I think that's something I'm always going to struggle with, but I.
I do think like one of the biggest things I've taken from therapy in
the last few years has been that it's okay to put myself first.
And in fact, I should put myself first, even.
Before my son, because at the end of the day, I can't be the parent.
I need to be.
If I'm not taking care of myself, Yeah.
Because that has been the theme of, yeah.
It's.
You can't
Sam: parent from a place of guilt.
It doesn't work.
So, yeah,
Ali: Neglecting myself in every way, whether it was physically,
emotionally, psychologically.
Aye.
I neglected myself for a really long time.
And I feel like I have made.
Really meaningful effort.
In my life to start to do things.
To fill my cup up and, you know, put myself first and whether that's exercise
or eating healthier or going to therapy or, and prioritizing time for myself and.
Do you know, and trying to have activities and things that are good
for me that are just for me, that.
That's really outside of being a parent or, my job, my family.
That is just for me.
So I do feel like.
I've certainly started to turn a corner and that, that is not my
emo anymore to just immediately.
Put my, My needs secondary to whoever else is forever on sake.
Yeah.
Joe: The deepest psychological level.
Would you still quite like to be martyred?
Ali: Mm.
Joe: Yeah.
It's
Ali: interesting.
Mm.
Joe: like if the right cut guy came along, would you go and get martyred
for him while he was in jail, though?
I
Sam: was Jim Morrison said, did you have a good world when you
die enough to base a movie on.
Yeah.
Ali: I don't know.
I don't want this
Sam: cinematic life.
Ali: Yeah.
I want
Sam: contentment, fulfillment and peace.
Ali: Yeah.
I think at some that like in a really, you know, romanticized, but
also deeply troubling way when I was younger, I probably would have
absolutely been like, yeah, I've sacrificed and, and been okay with that.
But not anymore.
I don't want that for myself anymore.
Sam: Yeah, you don't have any romantic illusion about
Ali: no.
There's no romantic illusion about like, Giving all that up for, my son,
for a partner, for his family, for anything like that, because I can't
actually do the things that I want to do if I'm coming from that place of.
Complete neglect.
Sam: So the power of cinema to reveal these things to.
Uh, us or the very least we can look back on the things, the texts
we were drawn to, and we can.
We can draw some powerful conclusions.
and we can see the illusions, but also just.
Joe: You know, a binary that constantly really occurs on this show is.
Uh, male, female split.
And how mail.
And masculine.
The characters, we identify with salmon, how extremely feminine.
I mean, there are three films.
Ali: Probably in the extreme version, like.
The
Joe: three films that I do not want to watch.
I talk like they sound terrible to me, So it's interesting.
Incredible.
However, whatever point we're at in 2024, actually we fall back
into these gender stereotypes.
Denify with
Ali: socialization.
Is it?
Or is it something that we've come to by ourselves through our own experience.
It's it's it's complex.
I don't think it's either one or the other.
Yeah.
That's probably a bit of influence of both.
Sam: Yeah.
Joe: And that's, dude's identify with dues and chicks.
Identify with.
Sam: But can I say, well, once I got to the.
Because you also in this same text thread, you reminded me that.
What a sentimental lad I was, and I really liked things like beaches by bet.
Midland.
And Moonstruck with Cher And I've always liked romcoms.
Especially.
Ones that had a bit of a gritty edge to them, or, but I kind of don't mind that.
Tabloid pap either.
Like I like it all.
So I don't necessarily have highfalutin tastes even though yeah, sure.
Thin red line, you know, technically classified as an art film, but if
you want my opinion, I think it was a successful, fairly populist film, really.
It just had to go up against saving private Ryan, what I was
going to get to is I think that the, the best cinemas helps me.
See.
Because there's lots of great films about dudes that are trying to be that hero and
it's not working and it causes problems and they have to disconnect with reality.
There's lots of good films that do that.
I can't remember the names right now, but.
Films where there's a glide, trying to solve problems through
like decisive masculine action.
And it doesn't work.
Basically connected to feelings and talk it through.
Yeah.
Joe: Yeah.
And in the end, I just decided to go bowling.
Exactly.
Which is exactly actually my hero's journey.
Yes.
It's like, ah, fuck.
All this crazy shit happens in the world.
And yeah, Joe, you got to pick the kids up from school now.
Oh, okay.
yeah.
You know, it's like a constantly waking up.
It was all a dream.
Yeah.
Well, no, whatever.
No one's tapping you on the shoulder mate.
Like to come and be the hero.
Yeah, but you do have to go get those kids.
Oh, okay.
Not try it yeah, I mean, it's interesting how deep the such psychological
side of this topic has been.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
I mean.
Allie dug deep.
Yeah.
I learned a lot and.
Remains.
Well, can I.
Just someone who identifies with someone who's a little bit.
Well, let me get into clouds.
And make
Sam: it to nature.
Let me be more vulnerable.
I gotta say it's some real, like basic bitch, like stuff.
That I'm going to.
Celebrate.
Okay.
When Harry met Sally.
Yeah.
It is.
Ali: Deeply entertaining.
Sam: And very moving.
Yeah.
And that genuinely the pie is really got some good payoffs in it.
Yeah.
That's how I feel about four weddings and a funeral.
It's good.
Yeah.
And actually that one really landed with me at the right time
because my mother had passed.
And that the funerals.
So, so yes.
Joe: And the absolute height stop all the bell.
Uh, stuff, all the clocks.
Oh, amazing.
Amazing.
Amazing moment in a film.
Sam: Yeah, I've really enjoyed here.
Grants work and.
Bridget Jones.
Oh, Literally one of my favorite movies.
Yes.
Yeah.
Ali: Very much.
Favorite, especially in my early twenties, when that was a pop hugely popular.
Yeah, I was that woman who changed smoked was chubby.
Drank too much.
Yes.
That's problematic.
Wow.
Very much.
I was Bridget Jones.
I.
And I was okay.
Sam: Relational.
They're relational.
Joe: Yeah.
Shit, just judge is a much better role model than those other three women.
Yeah, I agree.
Ali: I mean, yes, there was a ridiculousness about him.
I have a
Joe: slapstick quality.
You want to try to call me?
Yes.
It's something
Ali: that I really related to.
I think he broke your neck,
Joe: getting something out of a car,
Ali: putting my son in the car.
Yes.
Breaks down putting
Joe: this son in the car.
Oh, my God.
That is slapstick.
If you, Nick, wasn't actually literally broking that that would be hilarious.
And that's right.
Reality.
It's like, oh my God.
Ali: And that's.
It's been so many moments.
Sandy's
Sam: pulling the baby out of the car.
Barbra Streisand's in bed.
Ali: Yeah.
About my life.
I've yeah.
Bridget.
Oh, she just, yeah, again, but it's that making that choice and
chasing the Hugh Grant's yes.
Like the one that's not good for her.
Yeah.
There's something that's compelling her to go.
Yeah.
And
Joe: you're still doing it to this day.
Sam: Well, I think we should wrap it up.
I was going to say no, cause.
I found it very interesting to reflect just now on.
Who did I identify within?
So like identified with Renee Zellweger's character, but I also identified with.
Colin Firth and Hugh grant.
So that was fun to like have three black.
And the scene where the two of them having a fistfight.
It is the most hysterical thing.
All times.
It's incredible.
Ali: Exactly how.
Yeah, Darren men fight when you actually seen a fight.
That is what they look like.
It's so ridiculous.
Sam: How did two trained actors?
Because the worry would be, they'd have forgotten how to pull
off a thing like that because they've had too much training,
but no, they absolutely crush it.
And it's it's dust the best thing.
It's one of the best sequences in all the cinema.
I swear by it.
like if I had to, at the end of the day, I'm like, yeah, I'm Renee
Zellweger, like in that film.
And when Harry met Sally, I could identify with.
With Billy Crystal's.
Avoidant.
Attachment in there.
And that moment where, they've just had sex and then afterwards, and he's like,
Staring at the ceiling.
What do I do now?
And I'm like, yep.
I've been there.
I think now, I think, I feel a bit more like Meg Ryan, honestly, these days.
And I'd say the same about, You've got mail.
Yeah.
I think I was kind of the cynical.
I prefer timeless.
In Seattle.
Yeah.
Ali: Well, I mean, Again, right.
Sam: Oh, yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
And yeah, no, I could, and again, I could take either part in that.
And they relate to either.
But I would say, I think going from being like the cynical, smart talking
guy in you've got mail to like the, yeah.
The earnest sincere little book shop owner.
It's like, yeah, I think I'm her.
And, and yeah, it's, it's.
Like, it's just fun to think about.
If your identifications changed over the years.
Cause what's fun about a romcom is that the roles are usually
balanced to some degree.
Like they, we don't really have a central figure.
We have.
Two people having a hero's journey at the same time.
Where, where their quest coincides, And I think maybe that's why it's such
a rewarding genre and one that I've always been drawn to because as much
as I had heroes that I really admired.
I think there was always just something holding me back from going.
I am Robin hood in prince of thieves.
It's like, oh no, no, no.
Kevin, Costner's a movie star.
Yeah, he's doing that.
I can't see me doing that.
You know, like even in fantasy, like it's just, it's not going over for me.
I want to be Alan Rickman, you know, call off Christmas.
So it's just.
Just the, yeah.
I left it
Ali: just small, like.
I love.
I mean, I think
Joe: for me, it's a secret.
It's just, it's not an aspiration.
It's believable.
It's a secret hope.
I know that I'll be John Connor.
Yeah.
You know?
Yeah.
Like if AI blows up the world, I'll be John Connor and I'll be
protecting my mum or whatever.
Right.
and if reality turns out to be a complete illusion, I'll be Neo and I'll see through
the whole thing and I'll save humanity.
But it's not like it's not.
Got me thinking I'm capable of that.
It's like in my secret where nobody can see little private realm.
secretly identifying or with a detached heat man, like when I'm
dating and stuff like that, it's like, there's a detachment and yeah.
And, and like I said, in the end at 44, It's the detachment of the Hitman.
A little bit capable of.
Um, And no signs of savior of humanity that trial.
At this point.
Sam: But unlike the Hitman, you have the reverence for life and it's like,
okay, so what's the secret fantasy.
That you know, the secret hope.
I think you called it.
Yeah.
It's about
Joe: capability.
Yeah.
I'll have so much.
Capability.
Yes.
Whereas in my actual life, Like I do a job that I done for 20
years, but every time I'll worry.
The night before, like, oh, fuck, am I going to fuck this up tomorrow?
And it's like, The opposite.
Of the confidence of a hero in a movie.
Yeah.
My actual life
Sam: resolute.
Although I do think the best characters do display fear and uncertainty, and I've
always thought that was more convincing.
And then that enables the suspension of disbelief more easily.
Yeah.
Dan Rambo just strike.
Yeah.
They'll have gunfire.
Whereas Stallone in the first Rocky movie, that's, that's a different matter.
He's very vulnerable or stolen.
Yeah, all this Rambo.
Bruce diehard.
Yeah.
Relatable.
That's right?
Yeah, that's a fun one.
again, Alan Rickman.
Joe: but I don't think we should just endlessly drawing on about film to film.
Well, I want you to go.
Sam: I want it to try and satisfy.
Your challenge to me, which is I'd haven't necessarily revealed enough.
And so the secret hope and why was I.
Continually drawn to these melodramas like beaches and.
The N romcoms.
And who, what is the secret hope?
And I think.
What we know with beaches that, well, it's the fear that you'll be the tragic
character who dies young, but I think I've really wanted to be bet mid low
and like the B the, you know, the triple threat, like her, like a young character.
Yeah.
And.
Be admired for being talented and.
Uh, and to have quips ready all the time like that.
Yeah, that was very aspirational.
I really wanted that.
And then when it comes to the romcoms, now, I don't want
to be the dashing handsome.
Bloke.
If anything I'll relate to the bumbling types, much more.
But.
I'll I'll say it.
I want to be like rescued by the perfect lover.
There you go.
Like, I'm not too big to admit it.
You know, And I think that, you know, as we were talking about
the polarities in dating, uh, dating profiles between episodes.
that traditional, traditionally defined feminine energy of
like, yeah, come find me.
And create the life.
That I've always wanted to be
Joe: rescued by the perfect lover.
Yeah.
I want to be
Sam: found and yeah.
Joe: It's about.
Sam: We're go on.
Which film?
Joe: No, that's.
I couldn't tell you, but of course I want that.
Sam: Yeah.
Yeah.
I want to be found in place.
Yeah.
Ali: Oh, yeah.
Like, yeah.
I think everybody does.
Don't they like, there's a part of it.
If you can.
Yes.
Like someone just is going to fix everything.
That would be amazing.
We're all
Joe: been sold.
A massive lie.
Ali: Romanticism.
So unrealistic
Sam: found and placed where I belong.
Ali: Yeah.
Sam: Yes.
Resolve.
Everything resolved.
Correct.
I mean, as much as I, my ASD just, I couldn't deal with endings in general,
let alone happy endings and Yeah.
And then make up the rest.
I'm like, yeah.
But then what happens?
And, uh, does he go to work the next day or does he take the day off?
I need to know.
Um,
Uh, yeah.
But no.
So I think I'm an absolute layup.
Ali, Well, not for really putting those pieces together so quickly.
Also, you were just like, as soon as you got, as soon as you mentioned
Barbara Stanwyck, you were off.
Joe: Yeah.
I mean, I wasn't sure if that's a deep and intellectual podcast could handle a
topic as flippant as your favorite movie.
But, uh, when, all right, and next
Sam: week, favorite colors every time.
Yeah, that's right.
Come back to favorite colors and favorite footy team.
Uh, what's your star.
But now, Joe, what about that famous concluding line that
we haven't done for awhile?
Joe: We only do it every couple of episodes.
Hmm.
That's been another one.
Of the 10,000 things
Sam: it has.
Thank you.
Thanks Sam.