TJ Harris

We talk to Artistpreneur T.J. Harris!

Show Notes

Intro: It's a bad idea not to pay your student loans, The Odd Couple, Severance, chicken nugget bowls, 
Let Me Run This By You: Google is bullying Gina. What's your email archive strategy? We are all mostly old because the window of youth is shockingly short. Some of your dreams are NOT out of reach.
Interview: We talk to T.J. Harris about coming to acting later in life, having a background in business, having a close-knit cohort, Title IX investigations, being the victim of racial profiling while at school, the paradox of slightly shy kids being told they were shy so often that they become even more withdrawn, Our Lady of Kibeho, Neighborhood 3: Requisition of Doom, Sean Parris, Chris Anthony.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
3 (10s):
And I'm Gina Pulice.

4 (11s):
We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.

3 (15s):
20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.

4 (21s):
We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?

1 (34s):
Anyway, so I had to like get him out of the house and like men are slow and I just, it's just, it's a really no win situation. So anyway. Hello. Hello Busy. I've been busy. We've all been busy.

2 (51s):
We have been doing the damn thing. Haven't we?

1 (55s):
Yeah.

2 (56s):
Yeah. I have spent the last, what feels like a week. Yeah. I think it's been a week simply reviewing every single dollar 20, 21, like literally and putting it in a spreadsheet, literally like can donuts, can you

1 (1m 18s):
Keep it because you can write off a lot

2 (1m 20s):
Of new machine. Yeah. That's yeah. That's, that's the point of it is to find everything that, that can be written off, but it's, you know, and I'm hunched and my back and my eyes strain, and it's just like, oh my God, Calgon, take me away.

1 (1m 38s):
Yeah. I mean, I think that taxes are one of those things where if you do them right, and legally it's a lot of work, right? It's like,

2 (1m 47s):
You want to skim and

1 (1m 48s):
Be shady, which I don't recommend, because guess what? The IRS is only job is to get your money. Like, that's their only job. They don't have any other purpose on the planet. So like, if you think that's not their job, you're wrong. But anyway, so if you do it right, like you are, it's a lot of freaking work and it also is painstaking.

2 (2m 12s):
And I, and, and it's painstaking. And I think, you know, to, to, to find a silver lining in it, like, I'm so glad I don't have a full-time job because this is the kind of thing that literally, I don't know how people, when it's, when everybody works, how they do it it's

1 (2m 35s):
Well, you can't. I mean, I think it's, that's why people end up in trouble. Like, that's why people end up trying to skin his scam or not doing them and being like, you know what, I'm going to pass on all this. I'm just going to hope for them. And like, that's what I did with my student loans, because I didn't want to, and that's not even as hard as taxes, but I just like, couldn't cope with the ins and outs of doing the work to defer or like make deals, or like get my payments lower. And thus, I had a sheriff show up at my apartment. Like that is where you're headed. You don't know that story. Oh, all right. So I thought, oh, it'd be really cool to not pay my student loans.

1 (3m 15s):
I mean, I didn't really have the money, but I also didn't realize that my student loans were private student loans. Oh boy. So when they're private, you're in big trouble, because guess what? It's a bank that wants their money. It's not the government who has a million other things to do. Right. So the bank is like, no, we want our money. And I did that. Know that the bank hires the Sheriff's department to serve papers when you are being sued for your private loans. So one day I am N in Rogers park at my thinking, you know, nothing of it. Like I, I owed 50 grand and I to like four different banks. Right. It's always, and they sell them to other people and it's a big scam.

1 (3m 56s):
Right. Okay. Fine. But I'm like going about my business thinking, but feeling bad, but like, feeling like, ah, fuck it. Like, who cares? Well, they care. Wait,

2 (4m 7s):
How long were you not paying them

1 (4m 9s):
For a couple of years? Maybe I just said, forget it in 15, 20, 15. I said, no more. And then in 27, 20 17, I'm literally, I kept getting calls. They started calling miles and I was just the guy just pay no attention. Miles, like pay no attention. And of course he's like so trusting. He was like, okay, I'll pay no attention. I'll compartmentalize. And okay. So one day there's a, our buzzer goes off and I'm like, hello. Cause no one ever. He's like, this is the Sheriff's department. Are you Jennifer Bosworth? And I was like, and then I realized, I really quickly, your mind goes, oh, what have I done wrong?

1 (4m 50s):
Right. And it focuses it on the thing. Cause you know what you've done right. Or what I've done wrong. And I'm like, oh, my here is the PA the Piper or the pied Piper or whoever is coming to collect chickens, home to roost all the things. And I was like, and I just said, I have a lawyer go away. And he goes, no, we just, we just want to give you these papers. Like we have to give you these papers. I'm like, no, I have a lawyer go away. Which is the wrong thing to do.

2 (5m 19s):
What also, what was your logic there? I have a lawyer. Okay.

1 (5m 23s):
There was no logic. I would say it was the opposite of logic is what's going on. So I see that they go away because, and so they're paid by the bank. So they just hire the Sheriff's department to serve people. I did not know that it's like, they, they you're there for hire basically the Sheriff's department. So they go and they serve people and they could not serve me. But then what it did was it was really actually a great kick in the pants because I was like, oh, I have a court date now. So no. So what I did was I said, okay, let me find it. So then I was like, I need a lawyer. So, and then on my 43rd birthday or 42nd, 42nd birthday.

1 (6m 10s):
Yeah. 42nd birthday. I went to the lawyer. I found this lawyer fucking brilliant. I can't remember her name right now. She was like legally blonde. She had these long pink nails and her only job was to get people off student loans and, and either file bankruptcy or figure out a way to talk. The loan people doubt. She was a bad-ass and I went there and I was like crying. And I was like, look. And she was like, oh, $50,000. That's nothing. And I was like, oh, she's like, I got people that I was, you know, 600,000 in medical school loans,

2 (6m 43s):
Medical school, that's

1 (6m 45s):
All. But also she goes, yeah, the private loans they get ya, you know? So, so she, she, okay. So she said, I said, well, what do I do? I can't remember her name. She was so awesome. And I, and she's like, well, do you have the money? I'm like, well, look, I have this inheritance. She's like, oh no, no, no, no, no, no. Then we can't declare bankruptcy because they'll go after your inheritance. I was like, oh, hell to the, no. So she's like, all right, well, we'll try to get him down. So she reduced $50,000 to $25,000 for a fee of $3,000 and went to court and was like, you know, so she talked them down. She's like, you're getting nothing. If you don't take this 25,000, she's like, can you get me 25,000?

1 (7m 27s):
I'm like, sure. So I, then it happened to be, we were selling the house around that time. Anyway, I got the money and then my life has, but my credit was literally if a here's what people don't understand. It's like, it may be stupid, but the credit matters. But if you want to live somewhere,

2 (7m 46s):
Right? Like if you want to be on the grid,

1 (7m 49s):
If you want to like have a house that is, if you ever want to apply for apartment, if you ever want to it matters. I know it shouldn't. I always tell my students like, yeah, all this shit shouldn't matter, but it does everyone. It does. I hate the fact that it does, but let's be honest about the truth here. Let's just get real. So my, my credit now, what my credit was so low, I can't remember what it was. And I was like, oh, that's not so bad. And my friend was like, that's the worst credit you're going to have? And I was like, oh, okay. I was like, I didn't understand the scale. Right? Like I was like, oh, five 40 isn't bad. Or five, some days she was like, that's like the worst. So now my credit is seven 80.

1 (8m 30s):
Oh no, no. I got it. All of it is seven 50 because I paid it off. And like, I don't, we don't have any debt. Thank God credit card wise. Oh, because vials is, if, if it were up to me, I probably have debt up to my eyeballs, unfortunately. But my partner is like, oh no, no, no. He's really good with that. Thank God. Oh boy. Cause I have some problems because my parents never taught me shit. You know? So no, all this to say, how did this come up?

2 (8m 58s):
Because we were talking about,

1 (8m 60s):
Sorry.

2 (9m 1s):
Okay. But so many things about your story. First of all, it was $50,000. Just the amount you owed from the time that you stopped paying, or are you saying it has a total of $50,000?

1 (9m 15s):
No, I had more than that. So I had had 80 and I had paid 30 of it off because I went to school like in oh eight. I graduated. So it's not like a long time. So I had 50, 80,000 total. I had paid 30 somehow some way and all those years around there. And then I had 50 left. Yeah. And I was used to pay the 50, but then I

2 (9m 38s):
Just, just asking, but like, could anybody go to a lawyer and say, reduce my,

1 (9m 45s):
Yeah. That's their whole, because here's what the, yes, this is what they don't tell you is that

2 (9m 50s):
I feel like such an asshole. Right?

1 (9m 54s):
Doris is literally overdosing on melatonin. Hold on. Okay.

2 (9m 58s):
Oh my God. I can't believe I could have. I just pay. All of my students will never

1 (10m 6s):
Happen again. Come

2 (10m 7s):
Here, Come here. I just can't believe I've paid every penny of my student loans. What is wrong with me? I'm just the worst partner ever. Sorry. No, you're not. You're not the worst person. She meets me. And I eat

1 (10m 31s):
That

2 (10m 32s):
Thing away from her and I gave her all kinds of,

1 (10m 35s):
Okay. So yeah. You don't feel like an asshole because here's the thing. They never tell you this, that you can everything's negotiable in this country. Okay. Every single thing is negotiable. Everything's a business deal. Everything can be reduced. Why? Because there's no set rate for anything that's capitalism. So you, you, you can charge whatever you want. And then it's negotiable. So what she told me was these companies, these banks, they're banks, they're not companies. I mean, they're banks. These banks know that they will get nothing. If someone declares bankruptcy. Okay. So they don't know that I had this inheritance, this, you know, but they, they know that most people say F you I'm part of capitalism is bankruptcy.

1 (11m 22s):
I'm declaring bankruptcy. You get $0. So they want anything. They'll take pennies on the goddamn dollar. So she's like, oh no. And it's a fine line. And that's why you need a lawyer to go to court and say, my client has nothing. So if you want anything, she'd lucked into 25 grand. She can, she can scrape by twenty-five grand. You want that? Or you want Jack shit. And then they'll say, give me the 25 grand.

2 (11m 45s):
Right? Right. Well, I, I, it doesn't matter. Now I had done this, you know, 10 years ago. I mean, because the thing is, of course, like you take, you borrow $50,000 and you pay 300, basically.

1 (11m 58s):
It's ridiculous. Especially with private loans. Ridiculous.

2 (12m 3s):
That's what, and that's what I had. I had a lot of problems, but the other thing that's so striking about your stories, the moment when you start, when you said you had this moment in 2015, where you said, fuck it. I just, that gave me such a thrill. Like if you would, just because the reason I couldn't do that is I would think about it every second of the day.

1 (12m 25s):
I would have. Yeah. Because my mom was my co-signer, but that lady was dead. So I was like, what are they going to do? Cause she was really, I was more afraid of my mother than the federal and then the, then the bank and the government. So the private loans and the government. So I, if she was alive, you bet your ass. I would have been paying those motherfuckers off

2 (12m 45s):
Of my loans for social work school had to have a co-signer of my father-in-law. And for some reason that I never did get to the bottom of Wells Fargo. If I was one day late for a payment, they wouldn't even call me or contact me in any way. They just immediately, it was all on him. Yes. And he would of course call me the second that they called him. And it was so embarrassing every time I'd be like, I mean, it happened like, I want to say it happened five or six

1 (13m 19s):
Times. That is so easy to do.

2 (13m 22s):
It's silly. But

1 (13m 24s):
It's

2 (13m 24s):
Also like, this is the mafia. Like you're you're one day late in your payment and you don't say, Hey, could you pay me? You just go, do you just threaten somebody to break?

1 (13m 33s):
Yeah, it's a psychological tactic. It's like some real Scientology bullshit.

2 (13m 38s):
It was horrible. Horrible, horrible. So if you have a few, can't pay your student loans. If you're listening to this and you cannot pay your student loans, call a lawyer,

1 (13m 52s):
Let me run this by you.

2 (13m 58s):
And then I'm also doing another, another way in which I'm an obsessive rural follower is that Google sent me a message saying, I have exceeded my storage limit by 380%. And if that, if I listen, anybody could, anybody can bully me. I am so easily bullied. It said, if you don't, if you don't pay more for storage or get rid of some of what you have, you will no longer be able to send or receive emails. So I spent five hours yesterday going through

1 (14m 34s):
A bad idea in some it's

2 (14m 36s):
Not about idea. Well, I've got it down. Sorry. I was, I was out, I was using 385%. I'm down to 340% after deleting probably 10,000 emails

1 (14m 49s):
With like, is it true? What they're saying?

2 (14m 52s):
I don't know. All I know is that when I log onto my email and I see a big red line across the top,

1 (14m 60s):
I can't,

2 (15m 1s):
I can't take it. I can't take the red line, but upside, it has been a walk down memory lane, you know, because things, I mean, people I'm having email exchanges with, it seems sort of intimate. And I'm like, I have no idea who that person is. Or like reading email. I looked for the oldest email I have from you, which on this, on this, my Gmail is from 2008. And just, you know, whatever, like you were talking about your job. And I was talking about my job and I found the, the engagement announcement. Yeah.

1 (15m 40s):
That's

2 (15m 40s):
Kind of fun too. And, and also I realized I had thousands of emails that I just simply don't need. Like I keep every email. Do you keep all of your emails?

1 (15m 51s):
No. So I I'm so weird. I never have more than zero unread in my inbox.

2 (15m 59s):
Well, wait, did I just mean you archives of metal?

1 (16m 3s):
No, I just delete them. Not all the good one. No, no, no, no. I, I don't, I I'm terrible that I don't know how to do shit, so I don't put them in folders or anything like that or archive.

2 (16m 18s):
And then you have

1 (16m 19s):
Zero

2 (16m 20s):
Emails.

1 (16m 21s):
Yeah. It's because I have no life maybe. And I just,

2 (16m 25s):
The chairman for you have a full life and now you don't have any of your emails back from you. Don't

1 (16m 30s):
You know, I have that.

2 (16m 32s):
Well, how do you have them?

1 (16m 34s):
I erased the ones as they come in that are know that I don't know longer that have attachments and no longer need.

2 (16m 41s):
Okay.

1 (16m 42s):
So I manage my box. So here's the thing I will run out of storage. It's just that I don't think I get a lot of emails. I don't, I actually don't like, I'm always saying, I want more emails. I'm like the only person that wants them. I'm so like, I love paperwork and I love emails. And so I don't know. I'm always like no one ever emails me. It's so weird. But anyway, the pain is,

2 (17m 5s):
It's not possible that no one ever emails. You Did. The thing that I did, which is I accidentally deleted all my emails from

1 (17m 15s):
No, I remember that. That was hilarious. And now,

2 (17m 19s):
For example,

1 (17m 20s):
So right now I have zero emails, unread, unread,

2 (17m 26s):
Unread, you keep everything in your inbox.

1 (17m 29s):
Yeah. You know me, my desktop. How

2 (17m 33s):
Many emails are in your inbox? Just

1 (17m 38s):
30,000. I mean read 30,035.

2 (17m 44s):
Okay. Well what do you do when you have to find?

1 (17m 50s):
Well, that's why I can't never find my, Why you don't say why it happened. You have ISO every time you send me, it's bad. But miles miles was like, cause now miles is really into email because of his job for the last six months, his new job. And he's like, but you have no full zero four.

2 (18m 8s):
No, but zero folders. My shoulder, my shoulders are getting so tough.

1 (18m 16s):
So, Okay. So anyway, it beans, like I'm not saying I have a good system. Like I don't have a good system. I have no system. But what it is is I'm just proud. I don't have like, I'm really judgy about people that have a lot of unread emails. So like literally if I walk by and coworking and I see someone's inbox has like 12,000 unread, I go, oh God, I go, nothing, nothing, nothing little do they know? I have not one fucking folders. So I can't pay,

2 (18m 47s):
I need to start in a production of the odd couple because I am.

1 (18m 54s):
I know I look at your, I don't even know how you make. I look at our joint email. I don't know what these folders mean. I don't know what there's like sub folders to me. I'm like,

2 (19m 6s):
Now that you're, now that we're discussing this, I'm realizing another fake fakery folders actually don't have any meaning because actually, well, because actually, if you wanted to find an email,

1 (19m 22s):
This is like from

2 (19m 23s):
Right. If you want to find an email from target, you can just Google. I mean, you can just search.

1 (19m 29s):
Yes. But the problem is if you have 4,000, let me run this by you emails. So that is my, so I need you to set it up. I thought I had set it up for, for my, let me run this links. No. So what I did was set up a ma a new G Gmail account

2 (19m 47s):
And it's not

1 (19m 48s):
Good. It's not fair. So the bottom line is, I don't think my system is great, but what I think is I like I Le well, I'm weird in that. I like having no unread emails, but at the same time, I don't feel like people are emailing me enough.

2 (20m 3s):
We did a freaky Friday. You and me and you were thrust into my life. And I was thrusted. I think that I would immediately feel relieved because I feel like you don't necessarily carry around you. I mean, you have a lot of stuff that you have to carry around, but you don't necessarily carry around this need to do everything. Perfect.

1 (20m 27s):
Oh, no. And I think that comes, I swear to God. A lot of it is with kids, because if you fuck up with yourself, okay, so you're a fuck up. But if you are a parent of three children and you don't, you fuck up, you end up like a lot of people we know, which is, and the kids ended up like, like we, us and people, we know we don't like, so that is, I feel like if I was dropped in. So, so I feel like if I was dropped into your life, I would like it. Cause you have like all this space Around and everything.

2 (21m 0s):
And my kids would love it because you're fun. And that's, that's like, that's like the dynamic, that's the thing in our house. It's like, mom's no fun. Mom is doing, she's got the rules. She's

1 (21m 12s):
No, no, I'd be like, all right, let's do, let's eat fried food. This would be my thing. I'd be like, Eat fried food. And I can't eat that anymore. But if I dropped into your life, I could write, I could eat that. And I would say, okay, this is what I used to eat before my hurt. Like what completely I would have. I was thinking about the other day, something called a chicken nugget bowls. Okay. Which was, I would a

2 (21m 37s):
Bowl of chicken nuggets

1 (21m 39s):
Mixed with, okay. So I'd go to trader Joe's and get the chicken nuggets and then bake those. And then their, their potatoes, fries, fries, and th and literally dump a bunch of that in a bowl, put some ketchup and mix it all up and just have like a chicken nugget fry. But that's not good for you, by the way.

2 (22m 2s):
Why was it appealing to put it in a bowl? Instead of

1 (22m 5s):
I liked the combo of the two together and like the ketchup was the glue that held it all together. And I loved that, but the problem was I gained a lot of weight and then my heart went down. You can't really

2 (22m 18s):
Mean the thing

1 (22m 20s):
About adulthood, the shit you really like can not be maintained if you want to live.

2 (22m 25s):
I mean, it's such a bummer. I recently realized that youth really only lasts for 25 years. So, so, so everybody is mostly old, right? Like everybody's friends, the majority of their life that didn't occur to me for some reason, I think because we're so youth obsessed in this culture, I had this way of fit, not logically, but like I had this way of thinking about it. Like it's this long epoch of life, but really

1 (22m 59s):
You're old for a very long time. And then you die.

2 (23m 2s):
And then you're also very young for a period of time. So the, the period of time where you're autonomous and

1 (23m 14s):
We also missed it.

2 (23m 16s):
And then we were just walking around, feeling horrible about ourselves.

1 (23m 19s):
That is such a waste. Right? The other thing I was going to tell you, I have a really good story to tell you about someone we know that I can share, because it's a good story. This is a story about why it's good. That life can be good. Okay. I'm teaching at DePaul, our Alma mater, as you know, if you listen to the show, okay. I teach fourth year BFA actors on zoom, which I wasn't supposed to, but I got special and that's a whole nother Oprah and itself. But so I have students and one of my things is we write pitch letters. I help them. Cause that's my jam. I love doing that. Even if it's a pitch letter for them, for a tour to a rep, to a producer, whatever we write these like bio pitch letters.

1 (24m 3s):
Okay, fine. So I had this student, I still have the student and he's a wonderful youngster. And he's like talking his dream. This is so crazy. His dream is to be in the Mar somehow in the Marvel universe. Okay. Like he wants his dream is to be in a movie, a Marvel movie. But of course he wants a foot in the door, anything. And he goes, and I said, okay, well, like why we're developing his pitch letter with the class. Everyone takes turns, blah, blah, blah. And he's like, I would really like the career of this guy that I, that I've heard about named Sean Gunn. I'm like, wait,

2 (24m 37s):
Oh my God.

1 (24m 39s):
He said, he said, I know he went to the theater school. And like, I know, and I'm thinking to myself, cause you know, I obviously we've interviewed Sean gone listened to his interview and obviously, and we've done it twice, right? No, didn't we do two, two parts. I wasn't that the second one. But yeah. And obviously we know him and obviously he's not like my best friend, but I, and I was like thinking to myself and he's like, I just would really love to pitch him. And I was like, oh my God. So we created a dope letter to Sean Gunn. And I wrote to Sean and said, Hey, my students are doing this thing. He would love to jump on a zoom and they're going to have a zoom. So he's going to meet his hero.

2 (25m 20s):
That's I

1 (25m 21s):
Know I couldn't have been happier. I was like, I actually am doing something that makes a difference. So I'm facilitating the zoom between Alex and Sean and Sean was gracious enough to do it. And, and it turns out that he's filming. I think in Atlanta, you know, probably some marble thing and, and he gets off this week. And so it's, he has some time and Alex is like lipping out. Out's 21, right. This kid, he's like a great kid. He did stop motion classes. Like he, like, he knows how to do that as an actor, like the guy is in his letter, I really helped him with his letter. And, and Sean said, this, your student's letter is so sweet. Like I love it. So anyway, the point is, I was like, oh my gosh, this is, this is also to say that another reason the podcast is good.

1 (26m 8s):
Right. Because you just don't know how you're going to like pass it along. And FYI in two months, my students are going to be our colleagues. Right. Cause they're graduating. So you don't know, like, I don't know what they'll need for me or what I need from them.

2 (26m 22s):
I always say, you're the person who identified from the very beginning that this podcast was going to be healing to people. And not only are you doing it in this way, but you're also doing it in a way that you're through your work as a teacher correcting the thing that almost everybody who comes on says, I, yeah, I got all this education. But then when I graduated and now I do anything, like you're giving them at least,

1 (26m 47s):
And I do one-on-ones with them. And because I'm like, look, yes, exactly what happens to us and happened to everyone that we've talked to almost missed, except for like three people. And we've talked to a lot of people happened to is happening again, because I think there's obviously a bigger question of the reckoning of how do we change at a theater stage, acting conservatory to become more friendly towards launching these students in a way where they actually can get work and live and not worry and not worry as much that everything is for not. And what am I doing?

1 (27m 26s):
And I didn't get picked or chosen and how to write a pitch letter. Like FYI, all the people that I'm helping write pitch letters, they're all getting their meetings with people. It just, anyway, you were saying like, you can access.

2 (27m 41s):
Yeah. People it's, I'm not suggesting that anybody you want to talk to, you can just hit them up and talk to them. But I am just sort of speaking to this barrier that I have always had myself this mental barrier of like, well, I could never talk to so-and-so it's this thing about like, I could never follow my dream. You know, I recently realized that I actually was afraid to say inside of my own head, what a dream, what my dream was like. Right. Like I, I just made 99% of life completely out of reach for me. And then just try and then just try to figure out what this 1% that I could.

1 (28m 24s):
Yeah. I mean, that's what trauma does to you. That's what it does. It says you are, you can't even, it's not safe to even dream in your own fantasy. So most what I'm finding is as the more I talk to people in the more I sort of do research for like my own writing on trauma, on like serial killers, really. But like that the trauma is so crystallized at a young age, right. That there, it cuts off all access to hope. That's the effect of trauma. There is no hope. So you operate in this one, teeny little place of, I'm not going to hope, but I'm still going to live. Cause I'm not going to die. So there's, it's like, it's like, yeah, yeah.

1 (29m 6s):
There's no hope trauma cuts off the access to pipeline, to hope and to not just joy, but hope.

2 (29m 13s):
Yeah. And, and if it's true, like we were saying that youth is this short window, the good on the good side is there is hope in your older years that you can evolve to be the person that

1 (29m 28s):
You really can't. It takes a lot of work and it takes a lot of, it's not easy. And it's like really bizarre how you get there. But if you keep putting in the work and get support, it is possible. Even at 40, like that's the other thing that I am so clear on because I launched this consulting business so crazy. Like I thought I was going to get a nine to five and like, so my consulting business has taken off. Right. Because you've just fantastic. And people are like, how are you having so many clients? This is the reason I have no imposter syndrome. When it comes to this particular skill, like I'm scared as shit to be an actor. I'm scared as shit to write, to be a writer.

1 (30m 9s):
I'm still doing it, but I'm scared in that way, a screenwriter, a television writer, that kind of thing. But if you ask me to sit down with somebody and help them to pitch themselves and to crystallize their vision of what their thing is, whatever their thing is, I don't care what it is. I have zero imposter syndrome. I know you don't have to hire me. I don't get that's, you know, but I know that I am good at that beyond a shadow of a doubt because things have all come together to show me that. So my own work emotionally, I'm working with you on this podcast and in the entertainment business and my past life and entertainment and getting a master's in counseling, psych literally has prepared me to do this thing.

1 (30m 57s):
And I have no like, fear that if I'm talking to somebody about it, that they're going to think I'm full of shit, because it's actually the truth of what it's undeniable, it's undeniable, you eat it. And it's because I put in the work. And also I just it's one of the side effects of being a traumatized and neglected child is, is, and then doing the work to work through that is noticing that in other people and where their trauma points are. So now, like I'm literally about to start pitching my services to the district attorney's office for, for trials, for people to do closing lawyers that are scared to do closing arguments in a theatrical way.

1 (31m 42s):
Isn't that crazy? I was watching the John Wayne Gacy trial and I was like, oh, this guy has an amazing closing in his, his closing argument. The da was so brilliant. And it's known as like, he did this beautiful theatrical, but also tasteful thing. Cause sometimes it can be like a carnival, but like, and so I was like, oh, how do I help people do that? Cause that's, you know, and that's always tricky in the legal system, but I've also worked in the legal system. So I know a little bit, so anyway, that's my new, I'm like, yeah, these, some of these lawyers

2 (32m 14s):
How I

1 (32m 15s):
Have like stage fright, so litigators even, and they need help. So anyway, we shall see where that goes, but I don't have, I don't have, I'm not afraid that doesn't, I don't have imposter syndrome about that.

2 (32m 28s):
Yeah. Oh, thank God. We should all have at least one thing that we don't feel like we're an imposter about

1 (32m 34s):
One thing. I mean, for God's sake

7 (32m 43s):
Today on the podcast, we are talking to TJ Harris, TJ terrorists introduced us to the idea of the artist preneur and his background in business is what helped him get to that exciting place. So please enjoy our conversation with TJ Harris.

2 (33m 2s):
Okay. All right. All right. Congratulations. TJ Harris, you survived

1 (33m 9s):
And you did it with some very like your energy just from the emails and from your life is like so positive, ridiculously positive, which I adore and which I think we need. And also you call yourself and you are an extra preneur,

8 (33m 29s):
Brilliant

1 (33m 30s):
Artists, preneur artists are brilliant. Brilliant, brilliant mixing of that. Like I love that. Did you come up with that or?

8 (33m 39s):
Yeah, well I think so. I probably stole it from somebody else, you know, as all artists do. Yeah. But I have, I have, I started in business before acting, so I came to lading to acting and filmmaking later in life. I'm 34 right now. And this I've been on this journey for about six years. So I, I kind of started out like in finance, I studied, I got a general studies degree in undergrad. I went to ball, state university in Indiana and I was a business administration major at first and I hated it.

8 (34m 19s):
Absolutely hated it, but I knew it was during the time, like right before the recession hit where it was like, just get a degree to get a job. So I was like, okay, I'll get a business degree. But I ended up switching over to general studies with a concentration in finance and sociology. And during that time, I, I, I've always felt like I've been kind of in this, this middle ground of not really knowing which route I wanted to go, because I didn't want to become a doctor and I didn't want to become a lawyer and I didn't want to go down this. Like somebody already created my path for me. So I just kind of started experimenting with things, graduated with my degree.

8 (35m 2s):
I got a job with a company that I'm currently still with. I worked part-time for him. Yeah. So I I'm, I'm a consultant. Part-time

1 (35m 12s):
Oh, you know, what's so funny. That is so rare that people keep their job after they graduate from a, from a fine arts, like from a conservatory that they, as a master's student. That is fantastic. And why did you keep it? Like, could you love that work? What makes you want to keep it?

8 (35m 30s):
No. So, I mean, they know, I don't really love it. So I actually quit. I quit prior to coming to going to TGS for grad school. So the plan was just to, just to be done with it because I really want to transition out of this industry, but it keeps pulling me back somehow. So I quit. And then I had an exit interview and someone that when I first started with the team, the PR one of my colleagues ended up being the manager of the team when I was leaving. So did an exit interview and I was like, Hey, if you all, like, I'll come back and help out while I'm in school, if you all need my help.

8 (36m 10s):
So six months later, they brought me back as a contractor. So I was working in like, ha basically all my bills were paid for through working this job. Part-time while being at TTS

1 (36m 24s):
Here, here's the thing. This is brilliant for a lot of reasons. But one of is which, you know, I teach BFA fours at the theater school and, and now they have a class and I don't know, you may have had something to do with it. I don't know that that's called actors as, as entrepreneurs. There's like a, but, but it reminds me of like, they're trying to, but you already did that on your own. So like you, I never, it is so brilliant that you were able to maintain that job so that you might guess is you were able to live, like you had some Dota live on. Right.

8 (37m 1s):
I didn't take out any additional student loans or anything like that. I did just the bare minimum. And I was living with a friend from undergrad. So my rent was like, mama shit. He charged me charged charge, like 600 or $700 to be in a really nice place. I didn't have to pay your abilities. And I was living with a friend that I knew, so, and it was, it was, so the reason I quit is because I asked to go remote from my previous manager, but they didn't really work that out for me. So I quit. And I was like, you know what? I don't, I don't need it. So they brought me back and it was like, it was a part-time remote. And I already knew that job. And I was, I was basically locked site.

8 (37m 43s):
So like in the middle of rehearsal on breaks, I was doing work. It's all project based work. I was doing work in between rehearsals in between classes. I would check in and check my emails and just kind of set my own hours. And so when, like when the pandemic hit, I was already in the work from home mindset.

2 (38m 2s):
I have to stop you for one second. Cause there's so many things that you're saying I want to respond to. One is it's always a good sign, a good omen when just organically, the conversation turns to exactly what she and I were talking about before we started talking to you, we were talking about student loans and what a albatross they are for so many people so that you did yourself, such a favor by not having to go down that path. But also what I, what we always find in the MFA's is they really already know how to hustle, right? Because they've been in the workforce, hustling is like the thing you have to be as an actor.

2 (38m 42s):
And I feel like that isn't writ large enough when you're in a training program. Like, listen, you can learn about intention till the cows come home. But what you really have to be able to do is figure out how to do a lot of things all the time. Right?

1 (39m 0s):
Go ahead, go ahead.

8 (39m 1s):
Oh, I was going to say, yeah, I was, I was already hustling. I was working the full-time job and then immediately go into rehearsal for four hours and then rehearsing on my own after rehearsal and then going back to a job the next day.

1 (39m 13s):
Well, so this leads me to a question that maybe you can answer, which is okay. So the MFA, what I'm noticing, cause I also am doing a little workshop with some of the MFA actors this year and a writing workshop because I'm really interested in writing

8 (39m 28s):
Ones or twos or threes. It's all weird. Now

1 (39m 32s):
I know it's all weird. No, these are twos. And, and anyway, what I'm learning is that maybe, and you can see what you think about this. Maybe we need to look at restructuring acting conservatories to be more like MFA programs versus BFAs. Because like yourself, we have found that the MFA actors who graduate seem way more prepared to live the life of an, of a, of an artist preneur versus the BFAs who are like, I don't know, they seem like daring, like losing it.

1 (40m 12s):
Right. So what is your thought on that MFA versus BFA for you?

8 (40m 17s):
So it's a catch 22 because obviously like I wanted my MFA experience and the BFS, you know, we worked together, we rehearsed together and we did shows together and we were offered a lot of the same classes, but also you want that distinction of like, I'm paying more to get this specialized area. And I don't know if when I was 18 or 22, if I would have been in that mindset, like, I don't know what I want it then. So I think it might've been, I think it's a lot to process studying, acting and the business of acting and to make it all make sense, unless you already have an area that you're interested in and you can like apply while you're in, in school from the business side.

2 (41m 16s):
Did, did your career in business set that intention for you to be an artist preneur from before you ever started the program before you were restarted your MFA?

8 (41m 28s):
For sure. Yeah. I, so I can, I consider getting my MBA and I was looking at like Northwestern or, and just to preface, I had really had no interesting getting my masters. DePaul was the only school that I applied for because I, I was considering moving to Chicago or LA and I just wanted the training because I didn't study theater and, and undergrad. So I just wanted the training and I was like, you know what? I grew up in I'm from Northwest Indiana. I'm from Gary. And I knew, I knew of DePaul and I really, I searched top 25 MFA programs.

8 (42m 10s):
And I was like, oh, this isn't in Chicago. And then I looked at like UC San Diego, because that would get me close to LA. So I applied to DePaul and going into it. I told myself that I was never going to get my masters unless it was for something that I absolutely loved, like absolutely without a doubt. So it was acting. And I knew that I knew that I didn't want to get out of school and be poor. Cause like I don't, I don't like the concept of being a struggling poor artists.

2 (42m 45s):
Well, thank you. Thank you for saying that, that I really appreciate that because that persists as a myth that we all need to be living in a Garret somewhere. But how did you audition when you never studied that? Or did you ever act?

8 (43m 2s):
I was, I was acting, I was doing like community theater and I had an agent. I was doing improv. I was doing commercials and auditioning for TV and film and doing a lot of auditioning for theater and taking like workshops and classes. I had a vocal coach, so I was training, but it was like a self study type of training. And I never really had the core foundation of what acting is all at once. So I don't honestly, it's just one of those things where I like I'm, I'm very much a spiritual. And like you put out, you get whipped back what you put out into the universe. And like this life, the life that I've been kind of creating for myself is very surreal because things just like on paper, things should not happen the way that they have, you know?

1 (43m 48s):
Oh, tell us about that. Okay. So what, first of all, my question, my, my feeling is good. Good for you because I think you're making it, it sounds like it's exciting. Things are happening and they're coming together for you. So I guess my first question would be is what is the most exciting thing that is happening for you? Right this second,

8 (44m 9s):
This second wall, I just established my production company, my film production company in December. And I haven't launched like technically to the public, right until next month. Like I have an official launch day, May 15th next year, next year, next month, while next month. And the most exciting things that are happening are like, I have a small business client lined up for mark doing marketing work. I have someone that approached me for producing a web series that we're kind of developing the scripts. And then last night, DePaul school of cinematic arts student approached me to produce their MFA thesis, which is going to be a sag, a sag agreement.

8 (44m 55s):
So we just locked that in and that'll be, and I, I can't talk about it too much right now, but that's, we're shooting that in August.

2 (45m 4s):
Congratulations.

8 (45m 5s):
So even all of those things are just kind of happening and I haven't even really hit the ground. Yeah.

2 (45m 11s):
Oh my God. You're going to skyrocket. So what ways, if any, did the theater school experience challenge what you already knew about acting from having been a professional actor before the program?

8 (45m 28s):
In a lot of ways, it actually made me, it kind of hurt me a lot because I was very naive going into, and I was a lot more free and a bigger risk taker. And then when I got into TTS, you know, you start peeling back all of those layers about yourself and you're getting constant criticism and people were telling you to experiment, but also it's, you can't really experiment because you're getting graded and you're supposed to be taking risks and shows, but you're also getting a rehearsal and performance grades. So they call it caused a lot of like internal conflict. Where,

1 (46m 4s):
Why does that happen? Is that just the nature of school? I'm really curious as to why. So we have a beginner's mindset, right. Which is a beautiful thing. A lot of us, when we go in some of us, some of, you know, some of your classmates could, like some of ours probably would have been acting since they were like one month old, but for most of us, we didn't know what the hell was going. I didn't anyway. It really was going on. Yeah. So what is it when you say it's cut? Cause you said it was kind of bad, which I totally can relate to the idea of then going from being more free, to being more self-conscious and maybe like precious more about the work, but like what happened? What is the process that makes that happen? TJ, like, I don't get it.

8 (46m 42s):
I think, I think a lot of it is self-induced of like being in the competitive environment and I camp, I come from a sports background and wanting to just like love competition in a healthy manner. So I think a lot of it is that. And then I think a lot of it is just taking when you're, when you're told that there's so many different things that you need to change about yourself to kind of start fresh aching. Did it eat away at you? And like, and in the midst of like your learning, all your, like exposing yourself to all of this childhood trauma that you didn't even know exist in your body is going through all of these changes.

8 (47m 29s):
And you're releasing of this, these emotions that you didn't know existed. The reflection was great, but I think it was also like so much in such a little time to where before I was just kinda like, fuck it. Like, I don't have anything to lose. Like I've never acted I'm going to do this my way, regardless of what they think. And I think in grad school, I got back into a mindset of like, oh no, I actually care what they think.

1 (47m 58s):
Well, the other thing that is because I am a, I, I was listening to the thing you said about the sports mentality or a sports background, like, okay. Like, I was really good at basketball, unbeknownst to me in eighth grade. Okay. Like, shockingly, I was like this overweight kid, but I was really good at basketball. Okay. I didn't know I was good. I just, someone was like, Hey, try out for the team. We need people. I was like, well, I'm doing nothing else. But anyway, I turned out to be really good and I had fun because I had no expectations. I was like, okay, well they want me to play. Someone wants me. And it turns out I was really good. But then when I tried out for the high school team and it was like serious business, of course I never made the team.

1 (48m 41s):
And I never even went back to tryouts after day one, because I was like, oh, I'm not, this is, I'm not now it's serious business. Now this is like where, where the big boys and girls really play and it's competitive, more competitive. And it's more like, it felt more businesslike, you know, instead of fun. So maybe that has, I don't know. I could really relate to that sports analogy of like, when you're free, you're going to play better. You're going to be a better athlete. Right. Cause you can. So it's like how to maintain that freedom as an artist. If we bring it back to the theater school, like how to maintain that freedom to do what you want to do and experiment. And at the same time, take what they're giving you, but not care what they think.

1 (49m 22s):
It doesn't seem possible to me,

8 (49m 23s):
It doesn't. And I think like mid grad school. So probably second year before quarantine and everything happened. I think that was the year where I was like, okay, this is my second year. I know that. I know that I w I like, I really want to set myself up for success beyond just acting. But also I know that the stakes are high, like, or I made them high for myself. Like, oh, I gotta, I have to get an agent. And then you see all of that. You see it, all of your classmates, like they're starting to get representation early, before graduation in the middle of the pandemic. So like, it's like, oh, all of this pressure, and you don't know how the industry is going to be when you get out.

8 (50m 6s):
And also, like, I think I got back into the mindset of which I started in of like, okay, I feel behind already, because I started acting at the age of 28 and I didn't study. I haven't been studying since I was the age of five. Like I grew up in a performing arts family, but I was not other than just doing improv and having fun and making sketches with friends. So like, I didn't have anyone around me as a mentor in my friend group or in my family that could just kind of guide me. So I got this sense of urgency when I first started like, okay, I have to learn everything possible.

8 (50m 47s):
So I didn't care then. But like, when I was in grad school, I just started caring more about what my life could be and what it wouldn't be if I didn't get what I wanted. And I think, I just

1 (51m 4s):
Think she

8 (51m 4s):
Was as a lot of pressure.

1 (51m 6s):
So did you enjoy your time there sometimes some, like, did you, what would you say if someone came to you like were coming to you and say, like, what was your takeaway from that theater school experience in terms of high points and low points?

8 (51m 22s):
I, you know, I've, I, I loved it despite like the first year I will say the first year was brutal. It was brutal. My, my cohort, I love my cohort. We went through like a title nine investigation the first quarter. So it was like emotionally draining, just the, you know, being in a new environment and conservatory to start. And then you have like a sexual harassment case happening that creates like our own type of social distancing thing, where the person can't be in class, we have to go through, like, we're getting Student, this was a cohort member. Who's no longer with the program.

8 (52m 3s):
They got expelled, but, okay. So yeah, we're going through that. And we're navigating like intimacy and like how to get around all of this in our first quarter at DePaul. So a lot happened and it drew us together a lot.

2 (52m 19s):
I'll say my God. I mean, that door normally happens anyway, just because of the intimacy of being in voice and speech classes, but having that to go through, I mean, that, that probably in the end, sorry for whoever got hurt in that experience, but probably in the end boded. Well, for everybody just being able to, to judge

8 (52m 37s):
It did it did. So yeah, that first year was rough. I also went through, like, I went through a racial profiling scenario in the theater school that ended up leaking out to media when the George Floyd things happened in 2020, like that It's a whole thing. I was there's you, where were you all in the, you, weren't in the new building. So

1 (53m 5s):
We're old, we're old as hell. We've we, we graduated in 97 and 98. So no,

8 (53m 12s):
So, so I, I was like napping before rehearsal on the second floor, which is next to like the marketing section. And there's like a couch kind of blocked off, but you know, everyone sleeps in theater school cause you spend like 98% of your time there. And there was a, there was an Encore, a duty officer patrolling. And I think he was new because he had never, I never seen him before anyway. So he like woke me up and then started questioning me and like asking why I was there and who I was and asking for my ID. And I'm like, no, I go to school here.

8 (53m 52s):
And then I was like, why, why did you, why did you wake me up? And then he told me that because someone saw on camera and called to check that there was someone in the building that shouldn't be there. Okay. So we went through this whole process of like investigating and there's no cameras in the theater school. So he lied about why he stopped me. It was, it was, you know, I mean older, like I'm not at a typical theater type look anyway, the case got thrown out because they couldn't like, they couldn't find enough evidence to prove that he was in the wrong, even though he did wrong.

8 (54m 34s):
So they kind of went by that. So that's, this is all first year, right? So the case got,

2 (54m 38s):
Oh my God, you've graduated.

8 (54m 42s):
Yeah. So the case got closed and then we just kinda let it go. But after that first year, I was like, you know what? This was a more emotional turmoil. And I refuse to have the final two years go this way. So that's when I really started focusing on, okay, I'm going to do this. I'm going to get through school and like get every ounce of it out that I can. And that, and that's kind of like this that's when I kind of started developing like truly developing my production company. It had been in the works for awhile, but that's when I really got serious about it. And then the pandemic hit and like I had a lot of extra free, free time and you know,

2 (55m 23s):
Oh my God, I, I don't think there, there could have been any more calamity that you were facing at this time and you and you, so you truly survive school it on such a deeper level than I think I could, I can attest to, I want to go back to something you were saying earlier, when you were talking about picking careers, you were saying, I didn't want to be a doctor and I didn't want to be a lawyer. And so my assumption was that that's what your parents are. And then you said it's a performing arts family. So tell us more about your performing arts family.

8 (55m 58s):
Yeah. So my mom, she trained in classical singing and she's not a professional singer. My sister was in a performing arts high school and she's 10 years older than I am. So I grew up exposed to like, I grew up exposed to her in a girl group and around artists and around theater. Like my mom was kind of a, she's a public speaker and a politician her own way because I lived in Arkansas for about five years during my childhood. And it was a small town and everyone knew her and she, she ran this, this preschool, but she also did a lot of things in the community where she would have like women's support groups and she would go do like these leadership workshops.

8 (56m 46s):
And she's, I also grew up in a Baptist church and in the black church. So I, I grew up seeing performances a lot in a lot of theatrical performances and seeing my mom speak and she's so like articulate and powerful and I always admired her like, wow, she can get up in front of all these people and speak and like enjoy it. And I could not because I was super shy, like super shy. And I think it's because people told me that I was shy. So I had no interest in performing. Cause I was just terrified of it. And

1 (57m 24s):
I have to pause there for a psychological moment. Isn't that interesting. I did not realize that about shy kids. That a lot of times they're told, oh, this is the shy one. Just like, oh, this is the, you know, whatever one. And then it becomes a self-fulfilling thing. Like this is my, this TJ, he he's the shy kid. And maybe he wouldn't have been so shy if it hadn't been reinforced and reinforced. That's so interesting. It's just like what we tell ourselves like, oh, I can't do that. I can't play basketball at camp, but I'm this one, my sisters, that one, that's so interesting to me. Cause shy you, I mean just shows how people change and w how we aren't really what people say we are.

1 (58m 5s):
So anyway,

8 (58m 6s):
I internalized it and what I've psychologically, I think what it was, I grew up around kids. There were way older than me and way more mature. So I'm a, five-year-old around a 15 year old. And my brother who was six years old or 11, and all of my cousins are like 11, 12. I'm not going to be able to articulate the way that they're articulating and expressing themselves. But, so I think I just kind of withdrew within myself when I wasn't able to do what they were doing, which ties back into me, never acting is because I never thought it was a possibility because I saw them being able to do these things, but I didn't feel like I could express myself that way. So I just did sports.

2 (58m 51s):
Okay. Well, and actually that's kind of a pretty good bridge. Really. If you feel like if you were any bit in your shell, sports does help people come sort of come into who they are a little bit, but what I wanted to ask you was, did you, when did you, when did you figure out that you are not shy and when did you decide that this could be something that you would do?

8 (59m 19s):
I think in my probably, you know, I never, I've always known that I, I wasn't shy. It just depended on who I was around. You know, what, what group I was around. Because if you, like, if you're around my childhood friends and people, I went to high school with, they'll be like, he is not fucking shy. Like what, he's the worst, actually, he's the worst. Once you get them going? I think it has a lot to do with code switching and being in environments. I was very observant as a kid, you know, because I was shy and I listened a lot.

8 (1h 0m 1s):
So I think it was more of, I like to observe people around me before I speak. So I knew I wasn't shy, but I, I also knew that I wanted to be able to have a voice and figure out what that looked like. And that was kind of the journey of me that led me to acting is okay. I want to be able to speak and express myself and I want the tools to be able to do it. I just don't know what that looks like.

2 (1h 0m 33s):
Can you tell us about some of your favorite theater school experiences like performances or, or classes

8 (1h 0m 41s):
Favorite? Okay. Let's Griffin is a favorite of all. She, I could talk about her for days. Phyllis is a voice, was our, my voice teacher and my second year, and just her spiritual and gentle approach and having a black woman as a faculty member was huge. Those are, so those are some of my biggest highlights. So it's probably going to be more on like me and who I had around me. So just for context, I was the only black male in the MFA program when I went in.

8 (1h 1m 26s):
So there were two black women in my cohort. And then the class that MFA two's ahead of me, there was one black woman. And then the, is there was one black woman. So I was the only, like, not only was I, the, I was the only black male in the MFA program in my thirties, going into an environment where like everyone out of the other younger black men were 18, 19 20. So there's like this huge gap where I didn't really, I'd never felt like I had someone that I could talk to, you know, so, but great experiences.

8 (1h 2m 7s):
Our lady of <inaudible> second year, it was majority, all black tasks, a play centered around three well Rwandan girls who saw, saw our, the Virgin mother, Mary, so apparitions of it. So that was a great to being that environment and do that. And then I did this really cool in the, the big black box in the heli. I did this, this horror comedy job, a play called neighborhood three requisition of doom. And I got to play three different characters and I love the horror genre. So it was cool to really dive into that and work with the cast.

8 (1h 2m 51s):
And then that final quarter of the second year, the pandemic hit. And one of our professors that we didn't know, which was great. We were terrified because we hadn't worked with him, but he's an alumni, Sean Paris. I don't know if you're aware of Sean Paris.

1 (1h 3m 12s):
I know Sean,

8 (1h 3m 12s):
Sean, Sean has become a big brother to me. He is so amazing. And that was like the point that was game-changing for me, because it was during, it was during the start of the pandemic where I had not only a black faculty member teaching, but also a black male faculty member teaching me and I, that like that was when I really felt like I was able to open up and truly start translating who I am into acting and into my art or my art

1 (1h 3m 42s):
So necessary. What, what did, what was Shawn teaching or was he directing?

8 (1h 3m 47s):
So it was all remote. He was teaching us Meisner and viewpoints, but we were translating it to on camera because everything was done. So I got to really start building my relationship with the camera, Our relationship and the environment, because there's not really on camera for, at the theater school and there needs to be more And I love TV and film is the route that I'm, I want to go mainly in my career.

1 (1h 4m 18s):
So what, when you say like, that really opened you up in that really? What do you think it, I guess what I'm trying to, I want to get clear about, like, what did it do for you as a performer to have that experience with Sean? Like what, what, what happened? What changed in you?

8 (1h 4m 38s):
I got to hear his experiences and see him work because he really, he wasn't, he was a student as well, and he, like, we got to watch him do monologues and watch him work. And I think just being in the environment where someone was like me, literally, who was like me and has experienced it, experienced the type of things that I've experienced in life. It's one of those things where like, growing up, I didn't see a lot of people that looked like me on TV or in film. So I never thought it was a possibility. And sh working with Sean in being around him really opened up what acting can look like for me.

2 (1h 5m 26s):
Oh, that's so beautiful. And I'm never not surprised in all of the ways that representation matters. I never thought about it mattering in the classroom, but it certainly does. I don't know if you got a chance to listen to, we interviewed Justin Ross and he talked about our lady of Cuba. And one of the things that he was talking about was that, that it sounds to me. So I'm asking you to, for clarification, it sounds to me like that production fostered a whole pivot in terms of the curriculum and, and, and how he said it to us as we warmed up differently than was sort of the, the, the usual at the theater school.

2 (1h 6m 14s):
And that, that production helped create a new normal for that. Is that, was that your experience?

8 (1h 6m 21s):
It did. And I think a lot of that has to do with our graduating class with BFA and MFA my class, my cohort was very much of like, we'll burn this institution down if we need to, like, we're, we're changing shit, like regardless. And a lot of it had to do with going through what we went through that first quarter with the title nine situation. It was like we had each other's backs and it was the same way with our lady of Cuba. Oh, if like we have each other's backs because we went through some shit in there too with like,

1 (1h 6m 54s):
Yeah, they, yeah, it didn't, it was like, there was a lot of bad shady shit that went down right there.

8 (1h 7m 1s):
A lot of shit going down. Yeah. And a lot of like unbiased prejudice and racism that was happening with the people who were working on crew, not really having an understanding of the story that we're telling and not really allowing us to tell the story and not really getting our feedback as you know, it was, it was a lot of like an all black cast, but being essentially produced by all white people was right. You know, and there was a lot of conflict during that production, but I do think,

1 (1h 7m 40s):
Do you feel like it changed though yeah.

8 (1h 7m 43s):
To change the culture of TTS? For sure. Because we start, it was, I think that production and the things that happened during it really started shifting the culture of theater in TTS before the culture started shifting in 2020s. It was kind of like the, the catalyst before that.

2 (1h 8m 9s):
Oh my God. Yeah. Only like 50 years too late, not too late, but 50 years late. Like w we've had a of conversations because your experience of being the only black male in, in our generation there, yeah. There was always an, any class, only one person of color, pretty much. I mean, maybe in a couple of years there were two. And certainly Phyllis was our only are ever professor of color. Is she still the only professor of, I mean, I know the new Dean is a woman,

8 (1h 8m 39s):
But the only 10 years

1 (1h 8m 42s):
Tenured and full time, even maybe, I don't know, like adjuncts. Yes. We're cause I'm adjunct. And I know in my cohort of adjuncts there are, but I think full-time like, it's still, what, what, wait, wait, what?

8 (1h 8m 55s):
Yep. Well, Christina, Anthony, Chris, Anthony is new. She came in our second year. So that, she's also a really great she's. She came from California and she's, she has a lot of background in activism and in the classical. So she, she is a full-time staff member, faculty member, faculty member.

2 (1h 9m 18s):
Do you remember your audition? And can you tell us about what your audition was like? Yeah.

8 (1h 9m 22s):
Yeah. So get that. So when I apply for the audition, they were like, you can do the preliminary video or you can just come to in-person and I didn't have any experience with self-tapes. And like, I was still raw. I was like, I don't want to put a monologue on video. Like I won't have a chance at all at all, if I do this, but during that time, I was already preparing for Kentucky Shakespeare auditions. So I had been working monologues and working on a lot of different things with my, my vocal coach. So I did in-person auditions. And it's very funny because I was currently in rehearsals for the show of chorus line, the musical, and then think auditions were on Wednesday, Wednesday.

8 (1h 10m 17s):
Yeah. Auditions were on Wednesday in Chicago. And then there was an audition for cau UC San Diego in Chicago. Like they were, you know, all of the colleges they come and I was like, okay, I'll, I'll, I'll get an audition for UC San Diego. And it happened to be the day before the DePaul auditions. So I knew that I wasn't going to go to UC San Diego just because I felt like they don't know who I am. It would be like me applying to Yale and they don't, they have no idea who I am. So I have no chance. So I used that as like a warmup for DePaul, used it for a warmup to get, just kind of get the jitters out and audition.

8 (1h 10m 59s):
And then as I was leaving the, I can't, we were in some hotel downtown, maybe the Hyatt or something like that, as I was leaving, they were like, Hey, we're doing auditions for Columbia and New York. If you have a headshot, a resume and want to get a slot, I'm like, oh yeah, I have these printed out. So I signed up for a slot and then I went and auditioned for Columbia. So it was like, oh, all right. I got these two auditions under my belt. I feel, I feel ready going into tomorrow. Right.

1 (1h 11m 25s):
Wait, can I just say how brilliant it is that you decided to use them as practice? This is the sign of someone who is ready to do their craft when they see not those opportunities as a chance to have a panic attack and die, but as a chance to use their skills and practice and get in front of people and practice, that is a true artist, entrepreneur mindset. Like that is a better mindset. Thank gosh. You had that anyway. Okay. So then do you went to Columbia? Did you do all those?

8 (1h 11m 55s):
I did the Columbia. I did the Columbia and you know, there were, I was in the lobby and just kind of hanging out with people and you hear like the people singing and they're singing. They're like, <inaudible>, I'm like, oh God, there's there is that folks. They think they had a great audition, but whatever. So I went in and did it. I don't even remember what happened. It was kind of a blur, but the next day I had never been on campus. By the way. I never seen DePaul's campus. I never seen the building. I step on the corner of racing and Fullerton and I see the building and I'm staying with a friend from undergrad who lives in Lincoln park.

8 (1h 12m 35s):
So I walked there. So it was like, oh, I already feel like I'm at home because you know, I'm walking to campus. I walk there, I step on campus and I see the building. I'm like, holy shit. This is, state-of-the-art like, this is amazing. I opened the doors and I walk in and then I knew, I was like, yup, this is home. I'm getting in. I'm going to get in. I'm going to get in. The audition happens. It's it was like a three hour in-person audition where we did some improv in a cohort. We did, we did movement work with Patrice. I don't know if you all know we did movement work with Patrice.

8 (1h 13m 19s):
We did our interview. I interviewed with a Dexter and Patrice on camera. And then I did my monologue. I don't even remember. I did a monologue from, from the Humana play festival. I did one of rose. And then I did, I did a monologue from a fellow classical and I still like that was, I still didn't even know what the fuck a contrasting monologue was. Then I had no idea, but Dexter going into a Dexter Bullard who's the head of the MFA program was like before everyone started, he was like, you know, most people's monologues.

8 (1h 14m 3s):
Aren't going to be good. So it's fine to everyone. So he's like, just, just do it. It's fine. We've seen thousands and thousands of monologues. They're probably not going to be good. So that took a lot of pressure off. And I think what really got me in was during the interview, Dexter was like, so why, why do you want to come to grad school? You're working a full-time job. And I was like, you know what? I just can't see myself doing anything else. And I'm willing to leave my job now and kind of start over and do it. And he ended up being my advisor later and he told me, he was like, that was like one of the most like you're talented.

8 (1h 14m 45s):
And I knew that you would, you be a great actor, but the thing was you, I just felt it. When you said that you were willing to drop everything and like completely shift your life at this stage.

1 (1h 15m 1s):
So that's beautiful. And, and so telling in terms of what also I've been talking about with Gina and other people, which is when there is an authenticity in someone's bones, in their marrow, that what they are saying, they are hundred percent not only telling the truth, because you can tell the truth and still sort of coded or be weird about it. But like, when you are just like, so there and present, I feel like it is an undeniable thing in a room that people feel, and they don't have to, like you, they don't have to know you, but they feel this undeniable truth is in the room.

1 (1h 15m 43s):
And it's sort of like, you can't go against that. Like you can't say no to that. I can't. And most people can't. So that is, and it's is that all on tape? I'd love to see the tape. I'm like all about like, show me the tapes.

8 (1h 15m 58s):
I'm sure they have it because they had to show the other, the, the team. So for review. So I'm sure they have, that would be cool to see everything.

2 (1h 16m 8s):
Wouldn't it be cool to go? W we, we wish we were always saying, oh, we wish anything we did from that time was on tape. It would be cool to go back and see

1 (1h 16m 18s):
When you're, and also when you're mega famous they'll show in about, in about, in about, I would say six months, they'll be showing that Harris tape to the world.

2 (1h 16m 27s):
So I'm going to ask you a question that I wouldn't have been able to answer a few years out of school, but I think you will be able to, which is what is your type? Like, how do you understand yourself as you know what you're bringing to the table as an actor that you may or may not have known before you started the theater school? Hopefully you learned this while you were there.

8 (1h 16m 51s):
Yeah. I'm the, I'm the, the powerful kindhearted, gentle politician slash authority, the rotative figure. Like there's a running joke. Whenever I was going into the office at my, my current corporate job of like, there, he goes again, shaking hands and kissing babies. Cause like, I, I, I CA I had the approach of like, I like to greet people and like meet with people. And like, before the work starts, I just like to say, hi, and how's your day going? And like, get to know them and actually hear what's going on in their lives. And I think I adopted that from my mom, but I, yeah, I'm the, I'm the athletic coach who really wants his players to succeed.

8 (1h 17m 42s):
I'm the, I'm the motivational speaker. Who's not like Tony Robbins because I'm not like rah, rah, rah, fuck you do the district, blah, blah, blah. But also on the, but if you, if you fuck me over it, there's guys going to be some hell to pay. Like, there's kind of like a, a power behind my peace in silence. But also when I use my voice, I feel like I'm very powerful.

2 (1h 18m 9s):
But by the way, all of that came across in your headshots that you put on Instagram, you, you beautifully broadcast all of that. So I think that that was a good session.

1 (1h 18m 23s):
It worked out. I love that. And I also think that you are in an extremely amazing position to be a producer. Like, I feel like that's what we need in, Oh, sorry. That's my dog. Sorry. She's so annoying. That's Doris. Okay. Well, yours is behaved. So yeah, and it, it, it, we need producers like you in Hollywood. So come over here. Your plan is to come out here promptly so that, so that you can hire me. And that's what I'm saying,

8 (1h 18m 57s):
My partner, my partner. So, so I'm, I'm biased. So here's another thing. This is also another element to me, which I think makes me unique because I am bisexual and I'm currently, I am well, not currently. I am in a relationship of it is a long-term relationship. It's moving towards long-term with a man, but I'm more masculine presenting. So there's a, there's a, I still type wise broadcast as a masculine straight man. But also I have the experience of dating men and women and being more vulnerable and having that like gentle side to me, which plays a lot into who I am as a person.

8 (1h 19m 47s):
But yeah, me and my partner were moving out to LA next year. And the plan is to, because my production company is based in Chicago to have a buy a place here and then move out to LA and moved back and forth between LA cause I just got an agent in Chicago a few weeks ago and I have an agent and you can take thank you agent in Kentucky, in Ohio. So just, haven't tried to add as many people to nothing as possible.

2 (1h 20m 11s):
Wait, why Kentucky? You're not from Kentucky

8 (1h 20m 14s):
Area. That's where I was before. So I was in Louisville, Kentucky before I moved to Chicago. Yep.

2 (1h 20m 19s):
Where are you right

8 (1h 20m 20s):
Now? I'm in Chicago. I mean, uptown.

2 (1h 20m 22s):
Okay. What about your showcase experience? What was that like?

8 (1h 20m 30s):
I didn't really have one because of the pandemic. We didn't get to go to New York or LA, which is something I really wanted to do more so LA cause I really want it. I really want to be out there, but we did get to film them and they brought in a production company and we filmed scenes, but it was, it was, it was the first time rehearsing, rehearsing in person because we, we were in mass. We had to rehearse in masks and then we also had to shoot in mass. One person always had to be shooting. So what they did was when we were, we shot it in the, the watch theater, the main theater, the ITTS, and they use two cameras.

8 (1h 21m 15s):
And the wide view shot, they basically had a six feet apart where one person was always wearing a mask and then they edit it together. Our mask lists takes. So it looked like we were in the same scene together. And no one would know that we did that, but it was still eerie because it was still like this we're here doing this work, but we're not type of thing, but it was the first in-person experience I'd had really, for acting.

2 (1h 21m 44s):
Wow. Do they still do the there's the main stage and then there's the workshop? Do they still do performances in the classrooms or does everybody,

8 (1h 21m 55s):
Yeah, they have the, the three main, still the Merle reskin, which is downtown for the children's theater. And then the, the main stage presidium the Watts. And then the Healy black box are In the building. There's two main stages in the building. And then

2 (1h 22m 15s):
They only do children's shows at the rescue. Yup.

1 (1h 22m 20s):
Yeah. It's smart. And also the thing that is amazing about the theater school. So when we knew theater school, TJ, when we were there, obviously it was on Kenmore. And when she says classrooms, we literally did them in classrooms that looked like from 1940. What they have now, as classrooms are basically black boxes, a bunch of them it's gorgeous. It is the most, I went there for a rehearsal and I was for some project I was in and I was like, this is like star Trek. We are in star Trek. So good. Cause you pay a lot of money. People pay a lot of money, get the big, do it, do it up, man.

8 (1h 22m 55s):
Yeah. Every, every room there's like, there's the entry-level black box that has lighting and sound and then it just gets more and more complex as you move into different.

2 (1h 23m 6s):
That is so cool. And I'm not better at all than I paid for that. And didn't get to, okay. So you've got this production company. And did you say you're making a film right now?

8 (1h 23m 19s):
I, yeah, I am joining the, I joined the team to produce a short film and I am in the beginnings of writing a script for a horror feature.

2 (1h 23m 34s):
Oh, so cool. Can you tell us anything about,

8 (1h 23m 37s):
I don't know much about it other than I do know that it, I want the cast to be majority black and I want to cast DePaul MFAs as, as leads and main supporting cast. So that's, I'm kind of starting from there and writing.

2 (1h 23m 55s):
I love that you're taking, you're taking a position of power from the beginning, which is not something everybody feels equipped to do, but it's really where you need to get eventually anyway. So you might as well start that way. Who are some of your horror heroes,

8 (1h 24m 11s):
Horror heroes, Jordan Peele by far right now. I love the aesthetics of Hitchcock net necessarily Hitchcock is the person. But I, I do think a lot of my work is going to be influenced by his cock. And then a lot of like black horror films, like tales from the crib and the original Candyman is something that always sticks in my mind. It's the only horror movie that absolutely still tears terrifies me as an adult. The original, I thought it, I thought it was, I thought it was okay.

8 (1h 24m 55s):
I thought it was good. I thought there could have been more horror and I love seeing Chicago people in the cast. And I love just being here while this was shooting and debut was amazing, but it was also hard to compare it to the original.

2 (1h 25m 18s):
Yeah. Yeah. Since you mentioned Jordan Peele, who's one of my favorites too. I just had this image that they could read to us in the theater school setting right there. Right. There's this sort of a similar duality. It would be a really interesting thing to explore.

8 (1h 25m 35s):
That would be a nightmare.

2 (1h 25m 42s):
I mean, but that's, but that's what people have anyway. Right? They have their, because my experience at school was, I didn't know, and I didn't want necessarily to be in film and TV. And so we did these three years because it was, we did undergrad. It was three years of theater, theater, theater, theater theater. And then the fourth year, everybody started talking about like getting an agent. And I felt like I was just the only one who didn't get the memo, but I saw all of my classmates who had acted like they all wanted to do theater to completely turn into different people. That's something that happens in the last year of school that I don't know.

2 (1h 26m 22s):
Like I don't know that necessarily we need to be having a conversation about it, but it's just, it's just interesting to me. It's like everybody allows themselves to relax and learn and soak it all in. And then in the last year it's like, yeah, but I've got to be famous and I've got to do it right now. Right. Did you observe?

8 (1h 26m 40s):
I did observe that. And actually I think going back to the, approaching it as a kind of a business venture thing, I stayed away from theater as much as possible. Like if I didn't have to be a TTS, I was not there. And I wasn't going to like every, everyone in my cohort was like going to plays every weekend and everyone was doing, I was like, I love it. I need to, I need to be hanging out with people outside of theater people because I will go nuts if I'm constantly around this, because I don't part of what makes me, who I am is I love to be very well-rounded.

8 (1h 27m 20s):
So I can't only do one thing. I would be miserable if I had only consumed just the theater school environment. So in a lot of ways, I think that that also affected some of my relationships with BFAs just cause I wasn't around as much, but also it was good for my mental health to be a way

1 (1h 27m 45s):
It's interesting that thing we crave or at least I'll speak for myself. The thing that I was craving, which was this sort of in mashed support, not having good boundaries, like I craved this sort of weird family vibe that I got a lot of times at the theater school is also probably not healthy for my own entrepreneurial spirit to strike out on my own and do what I wanted to do for me. Not based on what my, my cohort was doing or like, it's just the things that we crave are also things that sometimes we just, we need to stay away from. And I, I mean, I guess so like one of my last questions for you would be because I'm really okay.

1 (1h 28m 29s):
So my new dream is to help create a program for acting conservatories to start the launch earlier for, for, for students. So that it's not a final, like in the third quarter, how do we become famous? Like, I think that's a terrible idea. So I think, so I guess my question is, what do you think it would take to really make the theater school, a place that would have really launched you? Or maybe you feel like you got it launch you as more of a, an entrepreneur, like you have that inside of you, but is there anything that they could have done to make a launch into the world of a professional artists better?

8 (1h 29m 14s):
Yeah. So the MFA's we had workshop classes where we had a lot of, like, that was a lot of the business side. I don't think there'll be a phase guide, anything like that. Truly. I don't think until the theater school had operates as a business, I don't think it's going to be there. Cause I don't necessarily think that TTS operates as a business. So, oh,

2 (1h 29m 46s):
Say more about that. What do you

8 (1h 29m 47s):
Mean? I don't think, I mean, they're not really concerned with ticket sales. They're not concerned with filling seats. You're not concerned with marketing because we still haven't been getting MFA alumni newsletters this past year. So we haven't gotten, have you all gotten an email about the new Dean? I only found out about it through social media. So like stuff like that. There are a lot of gaps where if I think people in the leadership positions need to have the business mindset in order to, for it to trickle down. So it's going to, it's going to have to come from leadership.

2 (1h 30m 26s):
That's fascinating. That's the last bastion. So this, this thing that's happened in theater, basically, maybe since the seventies has been this gradual moving away from this purist mentality about it has to only be theater and reckoning and an understanding that people can't make their living, even if they're on Broadway doing theater. So it makes sense that the conservatory program would be sort of the last bastion of being late to getting this memo. Right. Because that's what they did do that they did. They did romanticize and kind of give you the, give us the idea that that's where the real acting was.

2 (1h 31m 7s):
Right. And what I've observed. I think so certainly since we've been, there is a gradual understanding that that's, that's not where it's at economically.

8 (1h 31m 16s):
No. And a lot of it is how you market yourself and, and the relationships you're building and, and understanding the industry. I, so to answer your question, I think having someone like truly engulfed in the industry in the environment is a start that way. It's just kind of, the information is spreading. And I don't think students come out really knowing what to expect from the

2 (1h 31m 47s):
No on the domes. Okay. TJ, we have to wrap up. So tell people where can they find you?

8 (1h 31m 53s):
You can find me at T dot J dot Harris dot it's all periods in between my, my name, TJ Harris on Instagram and then instinct division films.com. So the word instinct, and then the letter, I then vision films.com also on social media and providing a lot of updates on there. The website is up and running and they're going to be a lot of cool things coming up soon.

2 (1h 32m 23s):
Oh, I can't wait. You're unstoppable. Thank you. Oh wait. Oh, before we go, I have to, you're going to be the third person I'm asking, but I'm going to keep asking if you ever talk to Phyllis, tell her we really love her to be on this show.

8 (1h 32m 38s):
I think texting

3 (1h 32m 48s):
If you liked what you heard today, and please give us some positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable Inc production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina Polizzi are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited and sound mixed by Gina Polizzi for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our [e-mail]. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.

What is I Survived Theatre School?

We went to theatre school. We survived it, but we didn't understand it. 20 years later, we're talking to our guests about their experience of going for this highly specialized type of college at the tender age of 18. Did it all go as planned? Are we still pursuing acting? Did we get cut from the program? Did we... become famous yet?