[00:00:00] Dan: Hello and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond.

[00:00:13] Pia: And I am Pia Lee. Woo. We're 

[00:00:16] Dan: We're back. 

[00:00:16] Pia: exciting. 

[00:00:17] Dan: indeed. Looking down the, uh, ducking down at the season, 12 weeks of, uh, of a lovely, fresh, new season six. And how are you doing? my good friend on the other side of the planet.

[00:00:29] Pia: uh, we are doing well. We're doing really well. we are well as a family. We've been busy. We're busy in business. There's lots of things happening in the team, team space. Uh, we are briefly one alpaca down. We had an alpaca death. That was a very sad moment. And it is a, quite a, quite an experience navigating animal grief with a, with a little family. So that was a little, but then unlike human death and grief, we then just bought two more,

[00:00:58] Dan: So they are very collaborative. Animals aren't, I mean, the, these are proper team, team players, aren't they?

[00:01:03] Pia: They are team players. And so what happens ju just, of course, this is what everybody really wants to know, but what alpacas do is they work as a herd and they take it in turns to stay awake so that they guard at night each other.

[00:01:19] Pia: And if you don't find a herd and you leave an alpaca on its own, it'll die of sleep deprivation. so it was a bit of a hunt to get one, to get two in factual fact.

[00:01:29] Dan: Amazing. One of which I think is Prager's Mr. Charming and

[00:01:34] Pia: Mr. Charming, who didn't get the Lady Wisher pregnant, but she may be with small babe. I dunno what they're called, baby alpacas, maybe alpaca-ettes?

[00:01:45] Dan: Yeah, it sounds like a, uh, sounds more like a singing group from the 1950s. That, but um, but yeah. Amazing. So they stay, they would die if not Now. So this, the one that died was the ginger one, wasn't it? Ed? Ed Sheeran. 

[00:02:00] Pia: It was the change. It was, I know it was Ed Sheeran. It was a real sad I think he had contracted something. I think he'd probably always had something and he was a little bit sickly and we just lost the battle. So it was, it was all very sad.

[00:02:13] Dan: Poor fella. There were some heartbreaking images on, uh, on, facebook, that's for sure.

[00:02:17] Pia: Leaping around in alpaca 

[00:02:19] Dan: Excellent. Excellent. So looking at human teams, let's, uh, let's turn our attention there. Cause I think we're both seeing a lot with the teams we're working with. And I think today's show, we're going to really have a chance to look back on the last season and bring those lessons, learnings, and experiences and challenges back to life to, for, for team leaders today because, uh, so what are you seeing in your, in the teams you are working with? What's, what's happening out there?

[00:02:46] Pia: I, I hate using this word because it's sort of been overused in the press, but it's unprecedented. I'm seeing a lot of teams under pressure, a lot of white water. You know, strapped for resources, burnt out, really working hard and sometimes discovering two things. You know, that they thought they were a team and they're not so much a team, they're more a group of individuals. And I think that's, the work that we're doing is really defining that. I think what, what is a team, and I think it's one of those words like love, peace, and mung beans. We all think we know what it means, and I think that's time to really properly define it. So I think that's, uh, that's really key.

[00:03:26] Pia: And I think that, really leaning into the pressure on team leaders at the moment, there's a lot of pressure on them to deliver. What are you seeing?

[00:03:36] Dan: well, similarly actually, particularly this resource squeeze, and I do see, to be honest with you, a lot of people saying, well just do this and then we'll sort the team out. You know, there's a, there's a, people are really still task focused as well. Uh, having to deliver things with, with minimal resources. And almost pushing that team collaboration, um, further down the road.

[00:04:00] Dan: I, I would say I had a great meeting yesterday with a team leader in Singapore, and, and it sounded like they were quite fragmented working separately, and I sort of thought, well, I'm gonna turn this around and say, look, I'm not sure. Are you sure you've got a team here? Do you want a team? You know, it sounds like you've got lots of individual experts here. And he was amazing cuz he said, yeah, I know that if we're good at the moment, but if we want to be great, we're gonna have to be a team. We're gonna have to act together. So, so that's, that's the spirit. I thought it was an amazing response cause it really sort of challenged the. His thinking in a way, but he, he just came back strong.

[00:04:36] Dan: So, and I think the last season really does still, uh, shed some really useful light, if you like, on, uh, on what team leaders can do today. I think the first thing we wanted to explore was around clarity. You know, in these times things are moving fast. We've talked about a lot before. There's complexity, so you don't really, it's not like the good old days where there was sort of some sort of steady future that you could see. So clarity is very hard. But we had a few episodes actually talking about building clarity and in per in particular purpose.

[00:05:09] Dan: Jim Goddard early in the season talked a lot about purpose and I know that was a really popular episode and talking about leading Volunteers, or he didn't even see that distinction, just said, these are people they need to be led with purpose. And he, he really sort of came out of the blocks early. And at the end of the season we had Richard Giles, again, another very popular episode talking about Ilkley Football Club.

[00:05:33] Dan: So those folks are in these difficult times, really grabbing purpose. And Robin Hutchinson actually in his community, really grabbing purpose with both hands and using that as a sort of, I often think with teams, I say purpose is you, you've got your plans and your your destination. That's sort of on the map. Your purpose is your compass. And when visibility is low, your compass is your most reliable instrument. I think those three were really saying to team leaders get purpose really clear, get it in the hearts and minds of the, of the people and, and move forward.

[00:06:07] Pia: And what I'm seeing is that people go straight to task. So they sort of give purpose a bit of a cursory glance, and then they go straight into task and that becomes very transactional. And really what they're actually trying to is to link action with meaning. That's a, that's a key leadership job, is the way you talk about what you are doing has a big impact on the overall direction, the purpose, the, the reason that you're actually there.

[00:06:36] Pia: And I think that, you know, I don't wanna steal Juliet's thunder later in this season, but we've seen some fascinating data. Clarity is flatlining, but the importance is increasing. And that's, that's gonna be really key to really close that gap. Um, and we've gotta find ways to be able to do it.

[00:06:53] Pia: I think that meaning is so important to align people and we got this attention disorder almost because we've got so many things flowing at us. So we've gotta feel it. We've got to feel 

[00:07:04] Dan: it's so interesting that 

[00:07:05] Dan: came up yesterday. I, I gave a little talk to a, um, banker's association in, in North Carolina yesterday. And, uh, this came up the sort of this sense of, look, we've gotta do things. We've got to move, we've got to do tasks, we've got to. But that link to meaning has been lost. And, and, and also the fragmentation that comes with, um, okay. I could lock myself away at home and just do this task, but how do I connect with others to do that? But that, that first of all, that connection to purpose and meaning is the job of the leader,

[00:07:37] Dan: I think. And linking to that, we also talked about the challenges of hybrid. I think we have seen a move last year was very much about where we work. There is, I think, a move now. We've started to see a lot more teams coming to us saying, look, we've now sort of settled where we're gonna work, which is pretty tactical, but now h how do we do this? And we're seeing more fragmentation, obviously. it's inevitable when people are split up. So hybrid becomes, to your point about team leaders, this becomes a specific leadership capability. How it doesn't it, how, how do you lead a team in remote and hybrid? Working and, um, it's not, it's, it's not that obvious. And there's another load, I think on those, those poor team leaders.

[00:08:22] Pia: And that really calls into question whether the team is a team at all or whether it is these group of individuals. Because if you've got fragmentation and you've got hybrid, it's like herding cats. So getting that unifying goal. And the goal is not your KPIs or a sum of your KPIs, it's gotta be something a little bit more inspirational, and as I say, unifying to be able to do that. So that's a leadership job to, to do that, to bring people along.

[00:08:51] Pia: And then I think also another key part of it is that, you know, that whole. Element of burnout, and we looked at it in a different way looking at the, the four day working week, which is, uh, you know, because I think that's the next shift that's that's going to happen. 

[00:09:07] Dan: I think it really is. And, um, the burnout side is it, Hybrid working can be really intense and, uh, you know, screen time, um, is not all that good for our brain. So actually taking, having less of our week on that will be, will be really important. I think.

[00:09:23] Dan: Um, you know, Juliet talked about those lessons from LSE about hybrid and the way that we can bring people in. There are some ways that leaders can, you know, use technology differently. But there's a key, as you say at the heart of this, which is, does everyone not only know their role, but how that role interconnects? The interdependency in the team. Are they really clear on that? And that's as well driven by that goal. We, we were talking about with these, these bankers yesterday. if you can get that goal to be truly shared, um, and then plan your activities to be shared activities, you know, not just individual activities, then you are Dr. Push, then you're bringing the team together, and they, then they're going to be less isolated, because they're going to need each other. So they'll inherently reach out to people, particularly if they're members of the Four Tops. I was told once you can't, you can't reach out if you're not a member of the Four Tops. But, um, there we have it. 

[00:10:17] Pia: Yeah. Uh, There we go. Quick segue. Um, but I do see, I do see trust getting a bit of a battering in the Squadify scores at the moment. it's difficult to always determine what is causal effects, but you do wonder if you've got a lack of clarity and unification in what you're trying to achieve, that you might become almost competitive within your own team because you're then being measured against your own KPIs. And that's a leadership, like we know that's a leadership move to go, okay, maybe the system doesn't set us up, but what could we do to, to unify our efforts? It it's important. 

[00:10:55] Dan: Yeah, and I, I still, I still the same actually in a, in a Squadify yesterday. Um, and that was being brought down, that trust was being brought down by high levels of self-orientation. You know, team leaders putting themselves above the team. And again, that's caused by, you know, not them necessarily being sort of selfish people. It's not necessarily a competence thing we would say, wouldn't we go to clarity first and say, do you have genuinely shared goals and do you have clear plans that are gonna bring people together? Um, because I think that trust measure is underlined by that sort of individual orientation, which is, which is understandable. Um, but the team needs to become a team. If you're going to, um, actually operate at that level, bring it a bit more meaning.

[00:11:38] Pia: And that's also ties into then how you maximize your diversity. And we got Marsha Ram root back and we talked about culture ad

[00:11:46] Dan: Yeah. 

[00:11:46] Pia: And I think that was a, that inclusivity, you know, and not, not being soft on that, but, but being quite. Intentional about it and what that actually requires and what that. You know, it's, again, when you look at the psych safety models, if you get true innovation, you know, you've got co-creation happening. and that's a, and you, you've gotta be an inclusive, inclusive culture to be able to create that.

[00:12:11] Dan: Absolutely. And she remind, yeah, she reminded us, didn't she? That the worst performing team is a diverse, non-inclusive one. I thought that was the, that always, uh, it's always a powerful finding that. Um, and I think, um, you know, we also saw, um, in terms of human connection, Jens was on his boat, uh, boat sort of really connecting, uh, with this boarding school on the, on the high seas.

[00:12:36] Dan: But I thought there were a couple of really good other episodes for practical things you can do to create this team, you know, really make them make a team out of a group of people. One was Marcus and Tom talking about external focus. I, I, I've seen that in action. And it comes back to the purpose point, really. But you know, what are we about here? We're about the customer. And that really unites everyone because everyone is can be involved in that.

[00:13:01] Dan: And then moving to climate, primarily climate, not only, but Adam talked about design thinking and human-centered design. So this is a great way to sort of, Understand your customer and then bring the team cohesively around that to, as you say, to co-create.

[00:13:17] Dan: So there's some really practical things there that teams can do to look externally, but then have the internal processes to bring them to together around that, uh, around that sort of higher intent.

[00:13:29] Pia: And those two, those two episodes, I'd really recommend, um, for cross-functional teams where, where, you know, they, they, again, they've gotta really think about the way that they're operating in that human centered design and then their focus of putting the customer number one. And, um, and what, again, what happens is you've got limited resources, and then you've got all the opportunities for individual dynamics to end up being a competition at play. Um, and I think, I can't remember, I think the, the stat is something like, you know, 75% of cross-functional teams are suboptimal. It's really tricky. Really tricky. And yet the complexity of the matrix organizations, they're gonna become bigger and bigger, they're gonna become a bigger feature. So we've gotta, we've gotta figure that out and work out, again, through the clarity, establishing that, but really being able to, um, to, to think about how we operate and the behaviors and then what, what becomes a unifying force. So i, I would wholeheartedly recommend those two. 

[00:14:40] Dan: Yeah. and I think those cross-functional team leaders are often in a very, very difficult spot. I've been one. And, um, you find yourself, particularly if you are hierarchically not above, if you like, cuz these things still seem to matter, the, the people in your team, you are trying to bring people in around and they have their own priorities.

[00:15:02] Dan: I mean, I, I, you know, I ran a team back in the nineties actually, and the only work that people, everyone was so busy, the only work people did on that project was in the hour. I had them every week for the project team meeting because no one had room to do anything, and to, I didn't either, but I think it is a very tough spot.

[00:15:21] Dan: And to your point, I, I think, what we hope is gonna happen is that in the past there were hierarchies, functional expertise. We then realized actually there's that sort of cross piece. You might need functions and geographies, whatever. So you need the matrix. Where we have to move is to, is the primacy of the team because that's where things actually get done. And those functions need to, the sort of matrix actually needs to dissolve a little bit, but put teams onto tasks, so that they can. Really get stuff done cuz they're currently, they are held up definitely by, um, by this sort of weird pulls of the matrix. You know, these sort of, oh well I'm dotted line to that person. Double solid line to that, you know, it's, it's not helpful. It's not helpful. And put yeah, put the team in the center then get stuff done.

[00:16:08] Pia: And what we see when we're doing Squadify debriefs is sometimes the excuse that, well I didn't, I didn't fill this incorrectly cuz I was thinking about my own team. So I think again, the question, which team, which team are you on? So, particularly for top teams, you know, making things happen. Don't be a top team leader as a functional leader. You're not a functional leader, you are a member of that enterprise leadership team. And that's a really important part. And you know, again, it's, if you don't get clear what your remit is, what you're trying to achieve, if you don't build the relationships across, you're not, you're not gonna leverage anything like the capacity that you could do. You know, you're just gonna end up being a rough okay-Ish sum of the parts.

[00:16:54] Pia: But if you really wanna break through, and I, and I dunno about you, but when teams get this and when they see that, what they do in terms of those interdependencies, the way that they work, the relational dynamics, they're immediately putting like, you know, 10, 20% onto the, onto their outcomes and performance, both in terms of dynamics and in terms of actual outcomes. 

[00:17:17] Dan: Definitely, and I actually, I've came across some research recently, um, by Professor Michael West, who's done a lot of work, particularly in healthcare. And, um, he's saying exactly that. He says there are a lot of pseudo teams out there. Um, they're not really workers, as you say, they're groups, but if you can get the workers, pseudo teams, he says that he, the various outcomes he's seen of up to 19% improvement. Interestingly, in healthcare, it's been demonstrated if you can turn a group into a team, you reduce patient mortality by 3%, um, in a, in a hospital. So, you know that that's saving lives through teamwork. Pretty good, pretty good. So, um, all of us have that opportunity to bring those talents together to do something a bit different. So yeah, it was, um, it was a a, an amazing season. We've got some great guests coming up. We're gonna look at this in different ways. What are your final reflections as you look forward, Peter? What, what are you gonna be working on in the next, um, next couple of months?

[00:18:17] Pia: I think a lot of work in this cross-functional space and the complexity, everything that, that, that you've talked about, you know, the position, often the, the leader is in a, um, uh, less hierarchical position, but has all that accountability to deliver. So the challenges with that, and it really is a case of sort of herding cats. And then actually, but there is a way to be able to lead those cats. If you can create the right unified direction.

[00:18:46] Pia: The other bit I did, I do think that, you know, when you and I started out on our Squadify journey, we thought everyone would be as passionately excited teams as we were. And then that was our first, first realization that actually they weren't, which, you is probably, you know, maybe a business 101 challenge. But what I find is that shifting so people are seeing that teams are a brilliant way that people can connect. And if you can cross that chasm from the group to the team, the uplift for all the individuals will be huge. 

[00:19:18] Pia: And so I think there is a, I think that cross in the chasm is, um, is the next phase that we're looking for. We have to make explicit what teamwork is. And it's like we've had to go back to basics, but I'm seeing that organizations are seeing the value of that. They're recognizing their landscape has changed, their way of working has changed. And even though we're, you know, there's a lot of white water around AI and, you know, and, and ripping out human skills that teamwork will not be replaced by 

[00:19:52] Dan: No, we've got, I think we said in one of the episode we've got to correct, we've gotta double down on the humanity, cuz I think nowhere. But in it, it is the moment for teams because not only do you get more performance out of teams, but people need a human connection. They need a home. One of the bankers yesterday said, well, I've only just realized talking about this, that you tend to sort of be an individual thinking about what's my connection to the organization, but there's this group in the middle there, this team that I can connect with really closely and, and get all the support I need and, uh, means of, and the diversity of thinking and the means to execute, and that team level is still, is still being missed. But as you say, I've definitely seen a shift there. So it's, uh, really exciting for everyone. I, it's, it's good, it's good for the organizations, but it's good for humans to connect with a little group around them. But that is it 

[00:20:45] Pia: Onwards to the season, I'd 

[00:20:46] Dan: Yeah, almost for the season. That's it for this episode. We are really looking forward to the season ahead. We can't wait to share some of our wonderful guests with you. You can find show notes and resources at squadify.net, just click on the We Not Me podcast link. If you've enjoyed the show, please do share the love and recommend it to your friends. And if you have suggestions for guests, just let us know. If you'd like to contribute to the show. Just email us at wenotmepod@gmail.com. We Not Me is produced by Mark Steadman of Origin. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.

[00:21:18] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.