the best possible outcome from all of this
is that you have two people on the same game plan
as far as what the kids this is
we wanna do what's best for the kiddos
and that may mean sometimes our feelings get hurt
because kid says I
can I go stay with mom tonight
I know it's Dad's night but I miss Mommy
it's fine you know
again no
it's my time damn it
it's like no
you go to your mother as long as she's cool with that
I'm cool with that too whatever you want to do kid
that was something that was a little difficult for me
and for most men you know
going through that process is you don't want to have
use the kids against each other
welcome back to raising men
I'm your host Sean Dawson
now we often talk about the crisis
of masculinity in our culture
but we rarely address one of its quietest symptoms
which is passivity we see the data
86% of men feel heavy pressure to be a provider
yet 40% of young men say
they have absolutely no one to turn to for guidance
there's a massive gap between the men
we feel that we should be
and the examples that our sons actually see
at the breakfast table
today's guest is here to help us close that gap by
starting with the man in the mirror
Ralph Brewer is the founder of the help for Men
Brotherhood and the creator of dad starting over
his latest book is called Rebuild
Ralph thanks so much for joining us today
it's a pleasure to have you on the show
thank you for having me thank you so much John
appreciate it now
let's start our conversation
with the book that started it all
it's called The Dead Bedroom Fix
now while that is an adult topic
it speaks
really down to the core of a man's sense of self
work worth I think
and it's something that we just don't talk a lot about
what prompted you to put that book out into the world
good question
out of everything I could have talked about
you know why that
well my story real quick
is that I went through a nasty divorce
I became a single father to three little kids
and I started blogging about my experience
under the name of dad starting over
that's where that name came from
and I've been creating social media content
under that name for over a decade now
and I started writing on a whole bunch of topics
in a blog and like most blogs
I didn't get much attention
until I started writing on the subject of sex
specifically sex and marriage
and somebody said I like your take on this and this
you should write a book on it
and so I was really hungering for some kind of mission
and something to do with myself and
you know really get me going
something to light a fire under my butt
and so the idea of writing a book
something I like writing
I've never written a book before
so I did it and when you know it
it kind of took off so much so that actually
the third edition of that book came out last year
and it's called The Dead Bedroom Fix
as you mentioned and
since that point and from that point forward
out of all topics I've ever spoken about
that is the No. 1 topic by a long shot
I mean I can talk about custody of kids
financial issues physical fitness
all the typical dad things
you know guy things and then nothing
nothing nothing alright
how about the fact that a lot of us aren't getting any
in marriage or not enough
and kaboom
the bomb goes off and guys just lose their minds
and that's all they want to talk about
so if you know
if my uh
website traffic is down a little bit
or my social media traffic is down a little bit
I'll just put on one of those videos and Kaboom
it'll spike again so it begs the question
what the heck's going on
why out of everything I've ever spoken about
why is that the No. 1 topic
and I'm not alone I know psychologists and other
content creators who put out similar material covering
you know a span of the human condition
and they will say the same thing
sex sells and it's any marketer
businessman will tell you the same thing
oh yeah you know
sex sells that's what a lot of guys want to talk about
I think it's a little deeper than that
uh maintaining
a healthy sexuality according to the average Joe
our definition of that within the confines
if you will of a long term monogamous relationship
is relatively difficult
and we've been undersold just how difficult that is
most of us yeah
I think the popular culture almost it well
it conveys that it should be effortless and
you know you ride off into the sunset
and you live happily ever after
and then and and thereafter it's
you know it's all roses and
and puppy dogs and it's not that easy
is it if it was
then I wouldn't sold so many pricks
so it's it's a big problem
and it's something that's not talked about enough
and it's something that a lot of men
here's a really negative way to look at it
if a lot of young guys were pulled aside at the age of
when they're starting to consider
let me find my life mate and all that other good stuff
we were pulled aside and given like a boot camp
so to speak on here's what marriage is like
and here is what it takes
to make maintain connection
and there's a very good chance
you may not maintain the connection way
the way you want to I wonder
what percentage of men would
bow out of the relationship game completely
that's like
a really big eye opener for a lot of women to hear like
oh my gosh it's that important
yeah it
it's that important to a lot of guys
yeah I think that's
I think that's right and by the way
there's a positive feedback loop there too right
as as that declines or a negative feedback loop
as that declines the relationship gets worse
which makes it harder to get that going
and vice versa if
if if your sex life is amazing
then that really um
translates to a wonderful relationship as well
yeah we know for a fact with data
that those couples that say
we are happy as a couple man and woman both
there's a definite correlation between that
and the frequency of sex in the relationship
the couples that say once or twice a week on average
are the happiest couples
I love that I love that we're bringing data into this
so so tell me about what's yeah
you know what is the fix
what is you know
if if you're a
if you're a man
that you're looking down the barrel at that and
you know ultimately um
what I should do is buy your book but uh
but you know
give me give me the 50,000 foot view
the majority of men that consume my material
and get to the point of buying a book
watching a YouTube video
entering my men's group are what we call anxious men
it's a all encompassing term
you can look at it a couple different ways
one is that they are very anxious in their temperament
filled naturally with a lot of anxiety
and thing two is
they are very anxiously attached to their partner
there's this whole theory in psychology
called attachment theory
most people within relationships
that are anxiously attached
or preoccupied with a relationship are usually women
but there's a large contention of men out there
and those are the men that take in a lot of self help
relationship oriented material
how can I make my marriage better
how can I reignite my sex life
and on and on those are the
most of the men who bought my book
can fall under that category
so for those men if there is hope for your relationship
and hope for turning around
the sexuality in the relationship
to way oversimplify
the answer is to become a more secure man
to become more secure in who you are
and consequently
more secure in your attachment to your partner
not constantly pursuing them
not constantly hovering over them
not constantly needing reassurance from them
please wife
make me feel better stop being upset
yes dear
whatever you say dear
happy wife happy life
just fine don't be upset
I can't stand that you're upset
when you're upset it ruins me completely
it's very codependent
is what the psychologist would call that
a very codependent nature to these men
Doctor Robert Glover wrote a book called
no more Mr Nice Guy
that is all about that codependence in men
one of the biggest books there is on the topic
that is the big relationship
slash sexuality killer within a long term
monogamous relationship that I see
I'm sure there are all kinds of different facets of
dead bedrooms out there we have
a lot of avoiding men
that don't want to connect emotionally to the women
they're just like leave me alone
you know very typical stereotypical guy thing
but that's not who I see at all
interesting so
but I mean
is the solution just to be more of an asshole
that's one way of looking at it
in fact funny you say that
that's the way a lot of anxious guys see it
a lot of your nice guy types
when they see a man who has a lot of luck with women
and he will look at the guy and study the man
they're like he's kind of a dick
he's kind of he's
he's kind of really full of himself and cocky
he's like that's one way of looking at it
or you could say in psych terms
I'm not a psychologist
but I know enough to be dangerous
the psych terms
would be he is very low in trait neuroticism
means he doesn't have a lot of negative thought anxiety
depression
he's more upbeat guy and he's very extroverted
usually he puts himself out there
he's not afraid to to fail
he's not afraid to get turned down by 20 women in a row
oh well
who cares no big deal
well the guy who's very introverted
and very high in neuroticism
a very anxious guy
gets turned down once or twice and he's done yeah
so there's something to be Learned from those
extroverted guys
and it's not so much be a cocky asshole
as it is to be confident sure
in who you are very secure in who you are
knowing who you are what your values are
and what your identity is
that's what I wrote my latest book rebuild
talking about building that identity
a lot of men go through their whole childhood
young adulthood
and into marriage without really knowing who am I
what what do I want
does this does my new mate match up with that
nobody asks those questions
it all boils down to if you're a very insecure man
does she like me enough
and not run away like all the other girls did
if not oh
good enough she's my wife to be then
and we need to be a little bit more pragmatic about
picking our mate yeah
well one of the things that I've realized uh
especially since having kids
is that so much of life boils down to attention
between two extremes and it's really all
it's always very tempting to
to decide that one of these extremes is maladaptive
or isn't working for me
so I'm just gonna go all the way to the other side
and what you're describing here is
there's a tension between becoming an anxious
nice guy
who just wants to please everybody all the time
which means that like frankly
your wife is not going to be attracted to that
she's not looking for that
she's looking for a provider and a protector
and those you're not sending her that signal
versus on way on the other side of the extreme
just being a complete asshole
and the right tension there I think is is really
really critical especially when it comes
to the messages that you're sending your kids right
you don't want to send your kids
the message that you are a jerk to your wife
but you also don't want to be the doormat over there
and so you need to figure out what that tension is
and honor your spouse honor your wife in a way that it
that that isn't isn't chasing after her
trying to please her and being anxious
would you would you agree with that
you nailed it that that's the difficult thing
that
that delicate balancing act is what I often call it
yeah you do need to be emotional and open and
vulnerable with your spouse
but there's a limit
and if you're an anxious man who has a lot of oh
tension and anxiety built up
which a lot of these guys do
and they hold it in
and they hold it in and they hold it in
and then kaboom
they emotionally vomit as it's called
all over their spouse and the spouse just left going
what the heck is this I
I can't trust this man anymore
I don't feel safe
you'll hear the ladies say around this man anymore uh
often this comes at a moment
where the woman is having a very unsteady
emotional moment and she comes to hubby and she's like
I I'm not feeling good
I'm feeling anxious about this
I'm feeling unsure help steady me
and he just can't take anymore
and he vomits all over her
so the lesson is just this circle of back and forth of
I can't be this way
cause I can't trust him with my feelings
and he emotionally vomits all over her and he's like
look I
I knew it men can't be vulnerable with women
it's it's
that leads to a lot of dysfunction in the relationship
and around and around they go
it's very unhealthy so what do you do
I mean if you're feeling this anxiety
if you're feeling that what do you do about that
how do you become
how do you experience that security
you know it sounds a little boilerplate
and a lot of guys listening to this
kind of roll their eyes but you hate to say it
but a lot of the origins of this starts in childhood
you were raised by a certain mom and dad
who raised you in a certain way
and the way they interacted with you
has a lot to do with how you
interact with your romantic partners
and your kids down the line
and then you watch them and how they interact
mom and dad if you're so lucky
they stayed married throughout your childhood
and you watched the dad say yes dear
whatever dear
and escape to the basement and work in his workshop
and stay the heck away from mom
and mom rolling her eyes and discussed dad all the time
you internalize that
and you had a front row seat for it
well I guess this is just how couples act
and then you marry somebody just like mom
and you're like oh man
here we go again and like clockwork
you get divorced just like mom and dad did
or whatever it may be
and we're just repeating these same patterns all over
over and over again so
I think it behooves a lot of guys to first
take an honest step back
and you may do this via therapy
I'm not a therapist
but a therapist may sit down with you and just say
let's really sit down
and think about what's going on with you
where do you think this comes from
tell me about mom tell me about dad
aha now we've identified it
now you can say now
you can recognize
when you're going down the wrong path here
and you can go you know what
time out stop
let's let's not do this path
let's turn around go back and try again
and a lot of that starts with
recognizing all those things that you were taught
as a kiddo that aren't so healthy
and a lot of that is OK
now that we've kind of identified
and we know what the wrong path is
what's the right path here
what what do I want out of life
unfortunately for a lot of anxious type men
who are married to their polar opposite
ironically the very avoidant woman
a lot of these men realize there's no help in this
this woman has told me from day 1 how she is
and I said you got it
and I married her and I had kids with her
and I've done so for the last 15
20 25 years
whatever may be I can't turn this around tomorrow
and most likely statistically
I probably won't be able to turn this around
not to the level that I want in a relationship
I want a nice loving partner who I can be open with
somebody who likes physical intimacy
somebody who when I walk in the door says
how was your day handsome
yeah that
sounds silly but a lot of men like
almost weep when they hear me say something like that
because they've never heard it ever
and I listen to the stories of their wife and I go
that's never gonna be her
my friend you know
you can become the most secure individual on the planet
earth you can look like a Greek God
you can do all these great things
that's she is who she is
and she has told you Point Blank
she ain't never gonna get help with it
cause she doesn't see that there's a problem
so the more secure you become
as any person who works on this kind of stuff
what they'll tell you is
you're gonna leave some people behind
and those are people that you determine
aren't so healthy for you
and unfortunately
that may be your spouse and the mother to your children
that sucks
yeah I
I I'm
I'm with you I
I think that is that's a great segue into uh
another topic the topic of your latest book uh
which is called rebuild and so
you know obviously
sometimes it doesn't work out or sometimes you decide
wow we're just
we're just not gonna be compatible now what do you do
hmm yeah
what do you do do well
for a lot of guys it's
you better buckle up
your life's about to get very interesting unfortunately
you know divorce is not a pretty thing
although I am hearing more
and more about very amicable divorces
I think what helps in that process is the fact that
more and more the women in our lives make just as much
if not more than us and so
that kind of changes the tone as far as child support
alimony and everything else is concerned
and often you go let's just go to the mediator
and the mediator says you get this debt
you get that debt you get this asset
you get you get that asset
uh 50
50 child custody is becoming more
more common some states are defaulting to that
you know if there's divorce
then we will default to 50 50
you have to prove that there's reason not to
as opposed to
you need to prove reason that there should be
that's an awesome thing
so a lot of men that I talk to are financially
I'm not hurt that bad in fact
after maybe six months a year or so down the line
I go you know what
it's almost like I got a raise
I thought
I thought the divorce thing was supposed to be bad
it's like when you eliminate a whole
another person and spending habits out of the equation
you you may end up doing better
and what a lot of men say is uh
the relationship with my children has actually improved
because I'm much more focused on them
when I have them under my roof
yeah when they're with mom
for the the week after that
I often still go to all their practices
and their sporting events
and their school events
and I pick them up for lunch every now and then uh
the one kid text me I don't know where and said
you wanna do dinner and I took him out to dinner
and they realize it's almost like um
my time is limited I know it is
I'm not gonna have this kid 24 7
so I better make it special while I have them yeah
it's funny how that
how life kind of teaches us those lessons
but a lot of men do pretty well after divorce
I know there's a big uh uh
oh what's the word
narrative out there that men are destroyed
men are you know
brutalized in divorce and so forth again
talk about data driven if you compare the men and women
men tend to do a lot better financially
if you want to use that as a gauge
after divorce long term than what women do
so I'm not saying that as a pro divorce guy
I'm doing that as a
I'm saying that rather as a guy who says
if it's inevitable like there's no going there
there's no changing this it is what it is
you've tried everything you can
and the wife just gives you the big middle finger
and says go away
and you realize this is the only way to go down you'll
you'll probably it's not the end of the world yeah
you'll be okay it's not the end of the world
I I think um I think that it
it can also really improve your relationship
with your now ex spouse because
you're now just partners in raising your children
and if you can get on the same page about that
and there's not all of this
added expectation
of whatever resentments were building up over time
that you now it's it you just narrowed the scope of
of your partnership and it's easier to succeed
because it doesn't have all these other things
very well put I love it
you're exactly right it's it for a lot of people
we were already co parents anyway
it's just that
we were technically living under the same roof
it was already kind of a business negotiation
any kind of romance or emotional connection was gone
years ago but now it's on the table at post divorce
yeah there you go
I was gonna say it's more overt
it's out in the open now this is what it is
we can drop all the pretense
and the knowledge
and the resentment of not connecting that way
and husband you can stop being so ticked off
that I won't touch you anymore
it's understood that yeah
we're not living in the same roof
we're not husband and wife
obviously we're not gonna touch each other anymore phew
we can just you know take that off
the table
and concentrate on what we need to concentrate on
the kiddos right
and you're right you could be like why
why didn't we do this sooner
as sad as that sounds but another
another thing that can happen there is it can get sour
the resentments can just overflow
and you don't get that meeting of the minds about okay
now let's just make sure our kids thrive
and it becomes it becomes a battle and
and that is particularly dangerous
I think for
for a father or parent of boys
um because boys have much worse outcomes than girls
if there isn't a man in the house
or they're not spending time around quality men
and that that can end up being the default if
in these sorts of ugly situations
what
what do you think you need to do
in order to establish that healthy relationship
with good boundaries and make sure that
your son is getting access to the best part of you
and and all of that
let's just put this out there
for the men that I work with
those anxious men that I talked about
not only do they tend to pair up with the avoidant
woman but they often times
especially our neurodivergent guys
the guys that are on ADHD
autism spectrum and so forth
they have a higher chance of connecting with a woman
who may have a personality disorder
for example so they're in a very toxic relationship it
doesn't show its true toxic colors until down the line
after kids come into the picture
and you got a lot of stress and everything settles in
the honeymoon phase passes
and then you're like who is this person
it can get really
really toxic and really nasty in a hurry
and then once you divorce
it seems like
those women are hell bent on making your life hell
as much as possible
they will kick a man while he's down
and it doesn't make any sense to the poor guy
who's like I
I I didn't want the divorce
I wanted to stay together
I'm just want to do this for our kids
and why is she trying to punish me at every turn
this is very important for those guys to get help
don't do this alone you can get overwhelmed in a hurry
and what you need to learn are those tactics of
there's a little psych tactic called a gray rock
I don't know if you're familiar with this
when you're dealing with like
a narcissistic person
or somebody who's very histrionic
and trying to get a rise out of you emotionally
an example I often give is
let's say you two are in mediation
and you're sitting across the table from each other
and you get to the point of a divorce mediation
and you get to the point of
they talk about child custody
this is a really common scenario
by the way and
they're like okay
Mister so and so proposes that we do a 50 50 split
one week with mom one week with dad
here's how we'll handle the holidays
and summer break and everything
and the mom just starts bawling her eyes out
I can't believe you're taking the kids away from me
this is horrible the kids need their mother um
I should have them 75% of the time
this is wholly unfair
just because I did these horrible things to you
cheated on you whatever
doesn't mean that I'm a horrible mother
why are you punishing me like this
why are you punishing our kids
and on and on and on a gray rock picture
just a lump of stone sitting there
not reacting just listens to her and says okay
on to page 2 and as if
you know none of that phases you
that is the oh the
the template structure you need to have in mind for you
and your interactions with your toxic
for lack of a better word
ex going forward
all that just bounces right off of you
it has no impact on you there's no legal anything there
so why even bother responding to it or taking it in
and on top of that the emotional component
know your legal rights
I don't know
how many men just roll over and just be like
ah drama
I don't like it
all this negativity and toxicity from her fine
fine whatever fine
and in the process of doing the fine
fine whatever fine
they're giving up money
they're giving up time with their children
they're hurting themselves in the long run
when they need somebody put an arm around them going
buddy you know
you have rights here you don't have to give all this up
no one asked you to spend this extra money
you know
you have the right to see the child X percent of time
whatever it is in your state country whatever yeah
so know your rights
get an attorney that's gonna fight for you
understand the inside out of all of this stuff
and don't let her emotionality affect you so much
uh you have a right to see those children
just as much as she does
and don't let anybody tell you otherwise
it could be argued that women are more nurturing and
you know they tend to be the logistical managers in the
in the family let's be honest
they're the ones
typically that know the doctor appointments in the
this school thing and that thing
you may have to take that over dude
or you're gonna take over some of it
it's just a matter of
yeah you're gonna
it's a new skill you have to learn just like any other
not a big deal but you're right
it can get pretty nasty there's this whole
parental alienation thing that you hear often about
where the for example
the mother of the children
may say you know
your father is a horrible
terrible person
let me try to poison your mind about things about dad
whether they're true or not
so that you will spend more time with me and you will
instead of going to dad
that's a very common tactic for a lot of frankly
mentally ill women and that's not a slam
a lot of them do have mental illness
you know borderline personality disorder
bipolar disorder whatever it may be
those are not unheard of in my world
when it comes to anxious guys
who got with the wrong gal
so many years ago
we hear this kind of stuff all the time
yeah I
I and I imagine
you know
I imagine the mother has her own version of that story
and at the end of the story
the most important thing is that you
come up with a constructive
mechanism moving forward right
I mean and
and it can be an asset this
this new regime that you're getting into
can be way better than the old one
you just have to seek it out and
and better for both of you
and that's that's
that's the goal there right
and if you if you start focusing on
if you if you have this fixed pie mentality and
and it's easy to get there where
where every
every loss to her is a gain to me or vice versa
she feels that way about me
then it it's all I
I feel like the the divorce industrial complex
that's what they almost thrive on right
you know the
the the divorce lawyers will sit there and
and they'll be happy to continue fighting for 10 years
and that's not in your interests at all
I don't think no so
you know so
the best possible outcome from all of this is that
you have two people on the same
same game plan as far as what the kids
this is we wanna do what's best for the kiddos
and that may mean sometimes our feelings get hurt
because kid says I can I go stay with mom tonight
I know it's Dad's night but I miss Mommy that's fine
you know again
no it's my time
damn it it's like no
you go to your mother as long as she's a cool with that
I'm cool with that too whatever you wanna do kid
that was something that was a little difficult for me
and for most men you know
going through that process is
you don't wanna use the kids against each other
I think that's a good
I try to talk about the last topic that I
that I really want to cover and
and that is the brotherhood
um
you know data shows that 40%
of young men don't feel like they have
anyone to turn to for help and
and I think that the institutions that we
men used to rely on in order to get
us together and get us talking about difficult subjects
those are gone and that is an opportunity
and it and
and it's and it's a problem in the sense that
the problem is that the institutions are gone
so if we don't intentionally make it happen
it won't but the opportunity is
we now have a way of making it happen
that we can customize to ourselves
but you've created a society of men
a brotherhood that proportion that
that that tries to address this tell me about that
yeah overall with men
to your point about guys feeling kind of isolated
and no one to turn to that is not just kiddos
it's adult men dare I say
probably more so with adult men
especially after children come into the picture
and that gets more in focus
after something like divorce
so we have a guy
who goes through the horribleness of divorce
and he's like well world
here I am Mister Vulnerable
hurt by divorce and he just hears crickets
he doesn't hear a lot
he doesn't get a lot of the same kind of over the top
fan fair help that maybe his ex wife gets
it could be argued
she did a much better job of cultivating a network
while you guys were a couple together
while you were more isolated
that's very very typical
it could be argued it is kind of a sexist thing
the damsel in distress syndrome
people tend to come to
the rescue of a woman in need versus a man
but it behooves us as men
to be very purposeful
and creating that community for ourselves
most men are very passive
when it comes to cultivating that
you know from a wider 30,000 point of view
we have uh
this concept of it takes a village to raise a child
whatever it may be in my opinion
that's very true and for some reason we've
over the past several generations have moved towards no
we don't need the extended family and friend network
and everything it's just fine with just wife and I
so it's not uncommon for guys to say
we moved across country for some job opportunity
away from all my family and friends
that I've known for years and
oh crap now we're divorced and I have nobody to help
it's just me all by my lonesome
it's like yeah dude
it's not supposed to be that way
it's supposed to be a whole community around you
of grandpa's grandma's aunts uncles
cousins friends of friends
and everything else that help each other
we've gotten away from that now
more specifically down to the men
we've really gotten
away from any kind of fraternal organization
all centered around some kind of cause
uh so what I will hear often from men is when I ask
do you have like men in your life you could turn to
they say well
I have this guy named Joe
I hang out every now and then with him
we watch football and then there's this other guy
who is the husband
of the woman that my wife works with
and I kind of I'm we're kind of buddies
we text you know
funny things back and forth every now and then
and that's about it
that's his social network
and he does so when things really hit the fan
so to speak and things are going bad
he basically has wife to lean on and when she's gone
he has nobody to lean on so we recognize this
it was something I experienced myself
so I created the Brotherhood
you guys can learn more at help for men dot com
you can go right to the join page
at help for men.comslashjoin
and it's
hundreds and hundreds of guys from around the world
all getting together in private forums
nobody else can see what you're talking about
private zoom meetings
we have a bunch of zoom meetings every single week
and then we record all the zoom meetings
so if you want to listen back to them
like a podcast format
we have like over 14 hours of podcast
or of audio from our meetings
as well as all my books courses
one on one coaching with myself
other guys on the team
we get together in person at a conference in the US
as well as Australia
and it's a bunch of guys that all get together for the
purpose of talking about this really difficult stuff
that they don't talk about with their buddy Joe
and they certainly don't talk about it with their ex
wife or anybody else stuff like the sexless marriage
or if you're a divorced guy
um I can't seem to get a date
uh I can't seem to get past the first date or two
with a woman or
I'm having a really difficult time
finding my purpose in life
and what the heck I am and
or after a divorce I'm really struggling financially
and whatever it may be all these the gamut
we have probably
the majority of the guys in our group
are actually still married
and they hope to remain that way
but it's tough it's really tough
they're maybe with the wrong gal
they don't have the skills necessary to keep it going
and then we have the guys that are divorced
guys that have never been in a long term relationship
and we have a very very good community
very close knit and a lot of resources there
under the umbrella of the Brotherhood
and it's probably the most
not probably
it is the most rewarding thing I've done so far
is to be a part of that group
and to start that group and be a part of a day to day
it's awesome I can imagine I uh what do you think the
what brings most men to that group and what do they get
out of it
still the number one driver to that group is
the dead bedroom fix book yeah
so it's the last survey I did
something like 70
some percent of the membership
came as a result of that one book
now here's the thing though
when we look at the guys that are in the dead bedroom
situations
and then the guys that have gone through the divorce
middle of divorce whatever
they're on that relationship spectrum
a lot of stuff in common
namely that anxious temperament that I talked about
the anxious form of attachment
attaching to the wrong women
a history of wrong women
we used to consider maybe I need to focus my
my efforts just on the dead bedroom
sex and marriage thing like
scrap all the other stuff
and just hone in on this Silo right here
cause
that seems to be where a lot of people are coming in
well but a lot of those guys end up being divorced guys
end up being
you guys struggling with relationships in general
guys struggling with with parenting
and they all mix together
how they got in
really doesn't seem to matter all that much
yeah I do you do you find that
I mean it's gotta be the case
is there any data about this
that it's gotta be the case
that men who are in this brotherhood
or have this kind of social grouping
have to be more successful
at navigating these challenges
is there data that that
that you have access to that uh
that shows that people in general
men or women it's just
the fact that women tend to do a better job of it
need to form a social group
and community around themselves
in order to have good mental health
we're herd animal if you
you could you could have
thank you you could have a guy that's got
I got my sleep honed in I got my fitness honed in
my job I'm making high six figures and everything else
but he doesn't ever talk to anybody or interact
or have any really good friends
or anyone to vent about things
he's not gonna be a healthy individual
he's gonna suffer as a result
and it's not uncommon for those guys
who seem to have everything going
for them to be depressed
and often the missing component is other people
as sad as that is yeah
I I mean
I've told this story before
but I I have a close friend who
we were talking and he goes
oh yeah I need to tell you about something
and I said I
I said oh
just as long as you're not telling me
you and your wife are getting divorced
we're in good shape and he was just quiet
and this oh has been one of my closest friends
since we were in eighth grade together
and I mean I had the predictable reaction
oh we gotta work
this out and there's no way and we can't
you know blah blah
blah and all this stuff and then
he started telling me about
what his life has been like
in the last 10 years and I was shocked because
like I'm one of his best friends
and I didn't know any of this stuff
and then I realized that I have my own challenges
I have my own challenges
that I haven't necessarily shared with him
and what kind of friend have I been to him
where I'm not I'm not sharing with him the deepest
most difficult things I'm dealing with
and he's not sharing with me
and we're supposed to be best friends
that's
that's sick my wife has probably
eight people that she shares
every detail of her life with
and she has this rich social fabric
and I realized that I didn't have that at all
and by the way I'm
you know pretty successful
reasonably happy great guy
I I have a wonderful life
but boy
I haven't cultivated that
and and it really
really shocked me
this situation with my friend really shocked me
and we ended up bonding over
I mean I kind of I
I tried to help him navigate his
his divorce situation which ended up
you know like you described
ended up being a net benefit for everybody involved
because it it
you know they were able to
to forge a partnership that
that worked out really well
but that's awesome yeah
vulnerability is a tough thing for dudes
meaning roll over
expose your belly and say this is who I am
this is what's going on with me
because a lot of us have been taught
let's be honest
that some of us had got bit of timer too
when we did that we were made fun of
or the girl didn't want to talk to us anymore
or something like that
and it doesn't take much for us guys to internalize
and go okay
message received
you kind of keep that stuff to yourself
or else you get punished
what what we've Learned is even with your
your best friend you're like
I just keep this to myself
I don't need to bother bother Joe with this
what a lot of men need is some kind of overt
obvious structure to be in place to say
this is where you talk about this stuff
this is where you are safe to do so
trust me
we've all been there and done that we've seen it all
we've heard it all don't feel embarrassed by sharing
it has to be really over the top obvious like that
and within behind walls
so no one else can see what you have going on
your ex wife won't see it
your current wife won't see it
your kids won't see it it's just between us dude
then they let the guard down and then they're like okay
and men can be as vulnerable as you can I mean
tears
hugs the whole nine yards as long as they feel quote
safe to do so and that's what our group
and groups like it are all about
I love that you know I
I one of the things that I
I absolutely love about some of your writing is
you emphasize ownership over blame
and I think that this is a
we need to take ownership of of our community
and you can sit there
and you can wallow in your basement
and play your video games
and vape or whatever and
and blame the world for the crappy state of your life
or you can take ownership of it
and one really good
first step of taking ownership of that is
is to join your group
appreciate that yeah
victimhood is very contagious and very addictive
there are entire communities online of men
who do nothing but bellyache about those stupid women
and the world is out to get us
and don't even bother trying
it's very nihilistic just I mean
if you wanna simplify it
there's a lot it's a loser mentality right
you're just gonna lose anyway so why bother trying
and boy you watch those groups
if one of them tries to escape the group
and the crab trying to crawl out of the bucket boy
they pull him right down so you'll see it online
there's a lot of communities of men are you familiar
with guys that call themselves incels
are you familiar with this term
the involuntary celibate guys
get those guys all in a room talking together
oh boy and if one of them happens to meet a girl
that he likes oh
they'll all let him know that she's a worthless
you know what don't even bother it's terrible
you're gonna lose
she's gonna cheat on you and leave you
crabs in a bucket man
and that stuff is very infectious
and it's tough to escape from yeah
and and by the way
if you feel the pull towards that look around you
which one of these guys do you wanna be
right you I mean that's you surrounded yourself
that's who you're gonna become if you're not already
yeah that's that's it's
it's scary and it's sad and I
but it's the only community these
some of these guys have
and I feel like yeah and and
what what's part of what
what is partially attractive about that group is that
these men hate to hear the terms like
ultimate responsibility and all things
because what they what they infer from that is
so this person across from me
like this toxic woman that I'm with
she's completely at zero fault
it's all me is that what you're trying to say
it's always the men's fault
the men just get really angry about this like no dude
regardless of what she does
you still have ultimate decision over are you
staying in the relationship
what are you putting up with
what are your boundaries
what will you with your identity and all these things
that's all on you man
no one said you have to stick around with that woman
she's gonna do what she's going to do
or that guy's gonna mistreat you
whatever it may be
you don't have to remain in this in this victim mode
you have ultimate responsibility over your life
you get to make all the decisions not her
and but that's a little scary
isn't it
it's much easier to point across the aisle and say no
it's all them
that's the excuse my language the chicken shit way out
yeah and and it's it's not masculine right
there's nothing less masculine than a voluntary victim
right
yeah the
the the whole
but the whole masculinity thing is up for grabs
I guess now the in question now
I've been on shows where it's been asked Ralph
what does it mean to be a man
I go that's a good question
it's it depends on who you ask and when you ask it
and where in the world you're asking it
there seem to be some tenants that are constant
or consistent across cultures
and across geography but that's a big question now
and a lot of people are saying
does it even matter
what's masculine and what's feminine
can't we just all live our lives
I say well you can try to
be as egalitarian as you want
but there's certain structures and
underlying behaviors
that always seem to seep to the surface
in men and women again
cross culturally wherever you're at in the world
so there's some very very good things about quote
masculinity that we don't want to
you know throw the baby out with the bath water
there are some toxic things for sure
just as there are with the opposite sex
but there's some real positives
and we seem to be losing a lot of that unfortunately
and I'm hoping
I'm hoping through conversations like this we can
uh we can claim it back
very good so I
I love to finish up these conversations by asking
more or less the same question of everybody
and so if you had to distil your philosophy into
one principle that
every father should be trying to pass down to his son
to survive today's cultural landscape
what would that principle be
it's okay to get help
I don't know how many
really great men with a lot of really great potential
limit themselves a great deal
by not just raising their hand going
can somebody help me out with this
because they're too proud
they have too much of an ego
or they don't want to come across as weak
and they don't want other people to think less of them
every single great man that I've ever known
great is a subjective term
the guys that I look up to
they've all recognized the value of help
in form of networking groups
and getting together with their peers
and doing the power lunches
and getting together with their business groups
whatever it may be networking groups
I've been an entrepreneur for years
and my eyes were opened years ago to
I didn't realize there were these business groups
with all these important men
just sitting around you know
they're not just shooting the bull
they're actually helping each other out
and I know a guy you need to talk to and don't do that
if I were you
I would do this it kind of opens your mind oh wow
all these guys are getting help they all say hey guys
help me out with this
that doesn't necessarily need to be
just in the business world
it most definitely needs to be
when it comes to what's going on up here in your head
and your your mental and emotional well being
it's okay to say I need some help here
and if if more and more men truly embody that
and felt safe to do so
we would cure a lot of problems out there yeah
I I would even add to that and it's more than just OK
it's it's a virtue
it's a absolute positive virtue and in fact
I mean think about it this way
if another man came up to you and asked for help
wouldn't you be thrilled
isn't that you would feel honored by that
and he looks up to you why so
why aren't you honoring other men
by giving them the opportunity to help you
very well put I love it
Ralph it has been an absolute pleasure
uh speaking with you
thank you so much for taking the time
to dive deeper into Ralph's work
and find his brotherhood the list of his books
all of those things the links are all in the show notes
so definitely check them out
Ralph it's been an absolute pleasure
thanks again for being on on uh
on Raising Men and remember that you are a great parent
raising men is produced by Phil Hernandez
this episode was edited by Ralph Tolentino