1 00:00:00,960 --> 00:00:02,460 - You've gotta run all the processes 2 00:00:02,460 --> 00:00:04,230 and deal with all the shareholder issues, 3 00:00:04,230 --> 00:00:05,310 the various stakeholder issue. 4 00:00:05,310 --> 00:00:07,260 Of course, you know, that's part of the day job. 5 00:00:07,260 --> 00:00:09,480 But I think it's really dangerous for a CEO 6 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:10,410 when he loses sight 7 00:00:10,410 --> 00:00:12,610 of what actually the company's trying to do. 8 00:00:13,650 --> 00:00:16,980 - All too often, size becomes a disadvantage. 9 00:00:16,980 --> 00:00:20,490 Outside, insurgents start to run circles around us. 10 00:00:20,490 --> 00:00:23,790 Inside, the endless meetings and PowerPoint slides, 11 00:00:23,790 --> 00:00:25,830 well, they start to destroy our souls. 12 00:00:25,830 --> 00:00:27,930 What about those pesky customers? 13 00:00:27,930 --> 00:00:29,850 Well, they feel more like a distraction 14 00:00:29,850 --> 00:00:32,910 from our urgent meetings or change management seminars. 15 00:00:32,910 --> 00:00:35,400 And of course, horizontal activities matter, 16 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:37,890 because that is where the benefits of scale come from, 17 00:00:37,890 --> 00:00:39,870 but they're not enough. 18 00:00:39,870 --> 00:00:42,870 We must also remain maniacally vertical. 19 00:00:42,870 --> 00:00:46,380 We've got to keep our connection directly with our customers 20 00:00:46,380 --> 00:00:47,940 and the frontline that serves them. 21 00:00:47,940 --> 00:00:49,200 How? 22 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:50,910 Well, perhaps the answer lies, 23 00:00:50,910 --> 00:00:54,420 I don't know, in courting plumbers, patching lightning, 24 00:00:54,420 --> 00:00:56,933 or maybe even putting a man on the Moon. 25 00:00:56,933 --> 00:00:59,070 (cheerful music) 26 00:00:59,070 --> 00:01:00,120 I'm Jimmy Allen, 27 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:03,870 and this is the "Founder's Mentality: The CEO Sessions." 28 00:01:03,870 --> 00:01:05,910 And today, we're speaking with David Haines. 29 00:01:05,910 --> 00:01:07,980 He's CEO of the Flora Food Group. 30 00:01:07,980 --> 00:01:11,550 His career spanned across founder-led companies like Mars, 31 00:01:11,550 --> 00:01:14,550 fast tech startups like Vodafone in the early days, 32 00:01:14,550 --> 00:01:16,530 and large companies like Koch. 33 00:01:16,530 --> 00:01:18,990 He then moved into private equity-backed companies, 34 00:01:18,990 --> 00:01:22,620 first serving as CEO of Grohe for almost a decade 35 00:01:22,620 --> 00:01:24,570 before taking the helm at Flora. 36 00:01:24,570 --> 00:01:26,310 Across industries and continents, 37 00:01:26,310 --> 00:01:29,730 David has built brands by staying vertical, 38 00:01:29,730 --> 00:01:32,070 connected to customers in the front line. 39 00:01:32,070 --> 00:01:34,860 And that mindset is something that he's been working on, 40 00:01:34,860 --> 00:01:38,493 well, since his teenage career as a cheesemaker. 41 00:01:40,020 --> 00:01:43,440 - So I started my frontline belief, I suppose, pretty early. 42 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:45,690 When I was a young teenager living in Somerset, 43 00:01:45,690 --> 00:01:47,403 I started working in supermarkets. 44 00:01:48,420 --> 00:01:50,010 I worked on the shop floor of a factory 45 00:01:50,010 --> 00:01:52,800 when I was a student making cheese in Ilminster. 46 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:54,600 And of course, in my early days in my career, 47 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:58,020 I was in sales and learned the power of talking to customers 48 00:01:58,020 --> 00:01:59,370 and what I would call real people. 49 00:01:59,370 --> 00:02:01,350 But I think the defining moments really came later, 50 00:02:01,350 --> 00:02:03,060 you know, when I was in my mid-20s, 51 00:02:03,060 --> 00:02:05,130 when I joined Mars, Incorporated 52 00:02:05,130 --> 00:02:06,870 on the pet food side in Germany. 53 00:02:06,870 --> 00:02:08,400 And I had the very, very good fortune 54 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:11,280 of being in a situation which was quite unique, right? 55 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:13,560 I joined in 1989, 56 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:16,140 and it was just as the Berlin Wall was coming down. 57 00:02:16,140 --> 00:02:18,480 And so, suddenly, we had 17 million new consumers 58 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:20,250 that we had to market and sell our products to, 59 00:02:20,250 --> 00:02:21,570 get distribution with. 60 00:02:21,570 --> 00:02:25,050 Shops in East Germany were not a great big, large Walmart. 61 00:02:25,050 --> 00:02:27,660 They were a little 50-square-meter, if you were lucky, 62 00:02:27,660 --> 00:02:29,520 mom-and-pop by and large. 63 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:30,750 So they couldn't take the whole range. 64 00:02:30,750 --> 00:02:32,670 And so there was no point in us doing stuff 65 00:02:32,670 --> 00:02:34,230 that worked in the West Germany. 66 00:02:34,230 --> 00:02:36,360 We had to do stuff that worked in East Germany. 67 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:37,860 And the only way you could do that was going over there 68 00:02:37,860 --> 00:02:40,110 and talking to people, and all that to be organized, 69 00:02:40,110 --> 00:02:41,430 we know which products we were gonna sell, 70 00:02:41,430 --> 00:02:42,360 how are we gonna advertise? 71 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:43,770 I mean, people have been seen advertising for years, 72 00:02:43,770 --> 00:02:46,770 I suppose, but how are we gonna focus our distribution, 73 00:02:46,770 --> 00:02:48,360 get our sales forces there, get it all built? 74 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:50,760 So it was like very pioneering 75 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:52,440 to have suddenly this country. 76 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:53,370 You know, it had the same name, 77 00:02:53,370 --> 00:02:54,390 I was about to say same language, 78 00:02:54,390 --> 00:02:55,950 but it wasn't even exactly the same language, 79 00:02:55,950 --> 00:02:57,900 and it's certainly a different cultural history. 80 00:02:57,900 --> 00:02:59,460 So it was just, you know, through all of that. 81 00:02:59,460 --> 00:03:01,320 And the other thing, right, was I was very fortunate 82 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:03,420 in those early days to meet the owners of Mars, Inc, 83 00:03:03,420 --> 00:03:05,520 John Mars and Forrest Mars. 84 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:08,190 I remember presenting to John as a 29-year-old. 85 00:03:08,190 --> 00:03:11,453 Candidly, I was very nervous. I mean, he was the owner 86 00:03:11,453 --> 00:03:13,440 of one of the largest companies in the world. 87 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:15,510 Given that we turned the sales around of what we were doing, 88 00:03:15,510 --> 00:03:17,340 my brand, which was called Chappi back in the day, 89 00:03:17,340 --> 00:03:18,900 dog food, it went fine. 90 00:03:18,900 --> 00:03:20,940 A few months later, John came back for another visit 91 00:03:20,940 --> 00:03:22,140 and somehow asked him to go 92 00:03:22,140 --> 00:03:24,090 for a walk through the car park with me. 93 00:03:24,090 --> 00:03:25,207 And when I came back, my boss asked me, 94 00:03:25,207 --> 00:03:27,030 "So what job did he offer you?" 95 00:03:27,030 --> 00:03:29,130 And I don't know, we just got on. 96 00:03:29,130 --> 00:03:30,960 And I think he also liked the, you know, 97 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:33,560 the enthusiastic frontline focus 98 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:35,550 of what we were trying to do with his friends. 99 00:03:35,550 --> 00:03:37,350 - What's interesting about those stories 100 00:03:37,350 --> 00:03:39,720 is we often sit in boardrooms 101 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:43,380 and talk about how our consumers experience our brands. 102 00:03:43,380 --> 00:03:46,680 And then there's the reality of in the frontline, 103 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:49,800 the actual experience is very often driven 104 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:51,330 not by what the brand owner wants, 105 00:03:51,330 --> 00:03:52,530 but what the stores wants, 106 00:03:52,530 --> 00:03:55,020 the recommender in between, et cetera. 107 00:03:55,020 --> 00:03:58,770 You must have taken that experience to Vodafone. 108 00:03:58,770 --> 00:04:01,650 - Well, when I got hired by Julian Horn-Smith and Christian, 109 00:04:01,650 --> 00:04:04,200 you know, that my task was, global brand director, 110 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:07,350 and my task was to create a global brand within three years. 111 00:04:07,350 --> 00:04:09,330 And we went about it and we defined the positioning 112 00:04:09,330 --> 00:04:12,570 and we worked out a vision of where we wanted to get to, 113 00:04:12,570 --> 00:04:14,370 but we all had to do with intangible assets. 114 00:04:14,370 --> 00:04:17,160 So suddenly we had to migrate these 250 brands 115 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:18,570 under the one Vodafone brand, right, 116 00:04:18,570 --> 00:04:21,600 across basically all parts of the world. 117 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:22,800 And we had partner markets 118 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:25,080 and we had direct markets like here in Germany. 119 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:26,700 So we created a vision for the brand, 120 00:04:26,700 --> 00:04:28,020 what we wanted the brand to stand for. 121 00:04:28,020 --> 00:04:30,929 We thought about the tools, but of course, 122 00:04:30,929 --> 00:04:32,520 you know, you had to change the name in the screen, 123 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:33,600 you had to change the service, 124 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:35,190 but you had to change the stores. 125 00:04:35,190 --> 00:04:36,630 There were thousands of stores 126 00:04:36,630 --> 00:04:38,160 branded other things across Europe, 127 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:39,570 and we had to think about things 128 00:04:39,570 --> 00:04:41,430 like with the new phones that were coming out, 129 00:04:41,430 --> 00:04:42,750 we had to put people in the stores 130 00:04:42,750 --> 00:04:46,020 to get them to put five names of your friends in the phone 131 00:04:46,020 --> 00:04:47,400 'cause it seems inconceivable today. 132 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:49,953 But back then, just getting your friends names 133 00:04:49,953 --> 00:04:53,190 into the phone so you could talk with them spontaneously 134 00:04:53,190 --> 00:04:54,510 wasn't available. 135 00:04:54,510 --> 00:04:58,230 And Chris and Julian were inspired, I believe, in many ways 136 00:04:58,230 --> 00:05:01,290 to bring in someone with consumer goods experience 137 00:05:01,290 --> 00:05:03,450 to try and do this, to create this brand. 138 00:05:03,450 --> 00:05:04,770 And we achieved what we wanted, 139 00:05:04,770 --> 00:05:06,060 but we had some great tools, right? 140 00:05:06,060 --> 00:05:08,100 We had a great simple idea. 141 00:05:08,100 --> 00:05:10,800 Often the best marketing ideas, 142 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:13,170 or first of all, these global jobs, 143 00:05:13,170 --> 00:05:15,270 you can only win with great ideas. 144 00:05:15,270 --> 00:05:16,740 You don't win with great PowerPoint. 145 00:05:16,740 --> 00:05:17,820 You have to have great ideas 146 00:05:17,820 --> 00:05:19,740 based on a strong strategy and insight. 147 00:05:19,740 --> 00:05:22,680 Ours was ask a simple human question. 148 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:25,050 How are you? How are you doing? 149 00:05:25,050 --> 00:05:25,883 Because how you're doing 150 00:05:25,883 --> 00:05:27,450 is the beginning of every conversation. 151 00:05:27,450 --> 00:05:30,660 And that simple insight that we tried to then bring to life 152 00:05:30,660 --> 00:05:33,240 through various, you know, advertising tools, 153 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:34,830 the Dandy Warhols, we did the music, 154 00:05:34,830 --> 00:05:35,880 went on to do a number one, 155 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:38,250 we sponsored Formula One, sponsored Ferrari. 156 00:05:38,250 --> 00:05:39,360 We tried to make our brand 157 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:40,800 the most relevant brand of the day. 158 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:43,260 And I think people would say back then it was, 159 00:05:43,260 --> 00:05:44,940 we achieved our objective. 160 00:05:44,940 --> 00:05:49,940 - I love this idea of relevance and the pride you took, 161 00:05:51,930 --> 00:05:55,020 and I totally agree that at for its moment, 162 00:05:55,020 --> 00:05:57,150 you know, at the beginning of the mobile industry, 163 00:05:57,150 --> 00:05:59,880 Vodafone is probably the most relevant brand. 164 00:05:59,880 --> 00:06:02,490 And so I just even love to go back to that one idea. 165 00:06:02,490 --> 00:06:05,340 How did you get a retailer 166 00:06:05,340 --> 00:06:09,900 to help a consumer put in five names in a mobile phone? 167 00:06:09,900 --> 00:06:12,630 - The retailers all were those days interested 168 00:06:12,630 --> 00:06:14,049 in selling handsets. 169 00:06:14,049 --> 00:06:17,220 Their whole raison d'etre was to sell more handsets. 170 00:06:17,220 --> 00:06:19,830 And so the idea of having more modern handsets, 171 00:06:19,830 --> 00:06:21,150 and I don't know if you remember when we came up 172 00:06:21,150 --> 00:06:22,830 with this concept called Vodafone live! 173 00:06:22,830 --> 00:06:25,290 It was the first flip phone with a Sharp. 174 00:06:25,290 --> 00:06:27,090 And we pointed out to these retailers, right, 175 00:06:27,090 --> 00:06:30,570 the way you sell a new handset is to offer new services, 176 00:06:30,570 --> 00:06:32,850 services that then did not exist. 177 00:06:32,850 --> 00:06:36,360 And it may seem crazy today in 2025 178 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:38,280 that the service was to put in five names 179 00:06:38,280 --> 00:06:39,960 so you could talk a bit more, 180 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:42,240 but everything has to start somewhere, right? 181 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:45,450 And it did start with that simple service. 182 00:06:45,450 --> 00:06:47,190 So, you know, it was really exciting, 183 00:06:47,190 --> 00:06:50,550 completely irrelevant in 2025. 184 00:06:50,550 --> 00:06:55,020 So relevance to the consumer is all about the here and now. 185 00:06:55,020 --> 00:06:56,760 As we say in the world of private equity, 186 00:06:56,760 --> 00:06:59,580 we have to play the ball as it lies, 187 00:06:59,580 --> 00:07:01,173 not how we'd like it to lie. 188 00:07:02,550 --> 00:07:05,970 - If you're not the most relevant brand in the room, 189 00:07:05,970 --> 00:07:07,200 you're invisible. 190 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:10,710 Incumbents lose to insurgents because PowerPoint slides 191 00:07:10,710 --> 00:07:12,570 become more important than customers. 192 00:07:12,570 --> 00:07:16,380 They lose their obsession with the full customer experience. 193 00:07:16,380 --> 00:07:21,120 That's every retailer, every gatekeeper, every single hand 194 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:23,370 between you and the end customer. 195 00:07:23,370 --> 00:07:26,700 What David did was simple. He brought data. 196 00:07:26,700 --> 00:07:27,990 He showed the retailers 197 00:07:27,990 --> 00:07:30,780 that if they wanted to sell more high margin handsets, 198 00:07:30,780 --> 00:07:32,250 they needed to help consumers 199 00:07:32,250 --> 00:07:34,470 use all the features on the phone. 200 00:07:34,470 --> 00:07:37,050 One initiative, walk out talking. 201 00:07:37,050 --> 00:07:38,730 Get the consumer to put the numbers 202 00:07:38,730 --> 00:07:41,280 of friends and family in their phone, and guess what? 203 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:44,040 They call friends and family from their phone. 204 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:48,450 He wasn't just shifting boxes, he was creating experiences. 205 00:07:48,450 --> 00:07:52,410 And guess what? David did it again with Vodafone live! 206 00:07:52,410 --> 00:07:55,200 And again, you have to remember how long ago this was. 207 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:57,450 Where combining Vodafone's network 208 00:07:57,450 --> 00:07:59,670 with a shiny new Sharp handset 209 00:07:59,670 --> 00:08:03,330 and a suite of services transformed the mobile industry. 210 00:08:03,330 --> 00:08:06,390 The result, one and a half million customers 211 00:08:06,390 --> 00:08:08,760 in seven months, and Vodafone went 212 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:11,130 from just another mobile operator 213 00:08:11,130 --> 00:08:13,620 to the most relevant brand in mobile. 214 00:08:13,620 --> 00:08:16,320 And that's vertical focus. 215 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:19,140 It isn't just thinking about how your product 216 00:08:19,140 --> 00:08:21,270 or ad leaves your office. 217 00:08:21,270 --> 00:08:24,750 It is caring deeply about how it hits the customer. 218 00:08:24,750 --> 00:08:27,960 Now in 2004, David entered the private equity arena, 219 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:31,620 this time as CEO of Grohe, and armed with a vertical mindset 220 00:08:31,620 --> 00:08:34,980 and a frontline focus, he had a single goal, 221 00:08:34,980 --> 00:08:36,393 revive that brand. 222 00:08:37,740 --> 00:08:42,390 - Grohe was a great trademark available mainly in Europe, 223 00:08:42,390 --> 00:08:44,010 but it was not a great brand. 224 00:08:44,010 --> 00:08:48,300 It didn't have a brand essence really other than quality, 225 00:08:48,300 --> 00:08:49,980 a little boring but reliable. 226 00:08:49,980 --> 00:08:51,810 So that was a good platform off which we could build, 227 00:08:51,810 --> 00:08:54,300 so my predecessors had done a good job. 228 00:08:54,300 --> 00:08:59,130 And we created what we used to call real relevant innovation 229 00:08:59,130 --> 00:09:01,470 that we thought consumers would pay a premium for 230 00:09:01,470 --> 00:09:06,090 'cause our big danger was the Chinese and cheap imports, 231 00:09:06,090 --> 00:09:08,340 which would copy PR designs very quickly. 232 00:09:08,340 --> 00:09:09,570 As you are selling these products 233 00:09:09,570 --> 00:09:12,930 primarily through what we would call today an influencer, 234 00:09:12,930 --> 00:09:16,050 an influencer could be a plumber, you know. 235 00:09:16,050 --> 00:09:17,610 You floors, it's broke, you're having a new bathroom, 236 00:09:17,610 --> 00:09:19,890 the plumber will come around and recommend something, 237 00:09:19,890 --> 00:09:21,330 or an architect if you're doing it 238 00:09:21,330 --> 00:09:23,370 with an architect or an interior designer, 239 00:09:23,370 --> 00:09:25,410 all three influencers. 240 00:09:25,410 --> 00:09:26,820 We tried to come up with this concept 241 00:09:26,820 --> 00:09:28,500 called Moments Of Truth. 242 00:09:28,500 --> 00:09:33,500 What was the point that made us different, special, 243 00:09:33,630 --> 00:09:36,530 and better than the alternative 244 00:09:36,530 --> 00:09:39,540 expressed in a consumer friendly way? 245 00:09:39,540 --> 00:09:44,220 So, for example, the core benefit as it turns out of Grohe 246 00:09:44,220 --> 00:09:46,410 was the what they called the cartridge 247 00:09:46,410 --> 00:09:47,370 in the middle of the tap, 248 00:09:47,370 --> 00:09:50,580 which made it move very softly and very gently, 249 00:09:50,580 --> 00:09:53,820 and by the way, also, when it's 30 years old. 250 00:09:53,820 --> 00:09:56,310 This concept of SilkMove was born. 251 00:09:56,310 --> 00:09:58,890 Another one that we had in our thermostats, 252 00:09:58,890 --> 00:10:01,710 we had cold water run around the outside 253 00:10:01,710 --> 00:10:03,030 so that you didn't scold yourself 254 00:10:03,030 --> 00:10:04,620 on the hot water on the inside. 255 00:10:04,620 --> 00:10:06,900 The moment of truth was called CoolTouch. 256 00:10:06,900 --> 00:10:10,860 And there was a concept that suddenly, very simply 257 00:10:10,860 --> 00:10:15,510 gave the plumber, the architect, the designer a reason 258 00:10:15,510 --> 00:10:17,970 to recommend our products to the consumer. 259 00:10:17,970 --> 00:10:21,180 And hey, yes, Grohe may be a little bit more expensive, 260 00:10:21,180 --> 00:10:22,013 but in the end you're getting 261 00:10:22,013 --> 00:10:24,300 a true relevant consumer benefit. 262 00:10:24,300 --> 00:10:25,560 - The story of Grohe is amazing. 263 00:10:25,560 --> 00:10:29,010 I wanna pause for a moment to give people context. 264 00:10:29,010 --> 00:10:31,440 There was a massive influx of Chinese goods 265 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:35,400 selling often at, you know, 60, 40, 20% of the price 266 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:37,500 that a good Grohe product would sell. 267 00:10:37,500 --> 00:10:40,770 And a lot of people from the outside were advising you, 268 00:10:40,770 --> 00:10:43,650 you know, "Buddy, you're at the wrong end of this market." 269 00:10:43,650 --> 00:10:46,890 It's about to commoditize, and the CEO has a choice. 270 00:10:46,890 --> 00:10:49,560 I accept that or I fight it 271 00:10:49,560 --> 00:10:53,160 and recommit to the differentiation, that's our product. 272 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:57,630 And I think Moments Of Truth is this great idea 273 00:10:57,630 --> 00:10:59,017 that you introduce that said, 274 00:10:59,017 --> 00:11:01,350 "Let's assert our right to be premium 275 00:11:01,350 --> 00:11:03,930 and help the consumer understand why." 276 00:11:03,930 --> 00:11:07,320 And I think it's so easy for CEOs at that moment 277 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:09,600 to give up on their category. 278 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:10,920 - I went there with the mission. 279 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:13,320 The private equities industry was renowned at the time 280 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:15,570 for the ability to cut costs. 281 00:11:15,570 --> 00:11:17,190 But growth, I think it's fair 282 00:11:17,190 --> 00:11:18,900 to say without offending anybody, 283 00:11:18,900 --> 00:11:20,370 was not one of their strengths. 284 00:11:20,370 --> 00:11:22,680 We wrote the manifesto to grow and cut costs, 285 00:11:22,680 --> 00:11:25,937 and the only way we could grow was to reframe the brand, 286 00:11:25,937 --> 00:11:27,540 give the consumer benefits 287 00:11:27,540 --> 00:11:30,480 and reasons to pay the premium, Moments Of Truth, 288 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:32,430 and do that over time with great design. 289 00:11:32,430 --> 00:11:33,720 And that's kind of what we did. 290 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:37,350 And by the way, the plumber in the end was easy to convince 291 00:11:37,350 --> 00:11:39,360 because the plumber certainly in this 292 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:42,630 wasn't really interested in selling cheap Chinese stuff 293 00:11:42,630 --> 00:11:46,530 because he or she knew six, nine, 12, 18 months later, 294 00:11:46,530 --> 00:11:48,180 the consumer would be calling them back, 295 00:11:48,180 --> 00:11:50,310 asking to break open their walls 'cause guess what? 296 00:11:50,310 --> 00:11:52,050 Wasn't working or leaking. 297 00:11:52,050 --> 00:11:55,950 And so actually in the end, there was a consumer insecurity 298 00:11:55,950 --> 00:12:00,950 that we could, of course, reassure with a quality brand. 299 00:12:01,770 --> 00:12:03,450 As I said, our predecessors did a good job 300 00:12:03,450 --> 00:12:05,310 building a reputation for quality. 301 00:12:05,310 --> 00:12:06,930 We brought design and Moments Of Truth 302 00:12:06,930 --> 00:12:08,497 and reasons to believe into that. 303 00:12:08,497 --> 00:12:10,140 And so we were able to build on that 304 00:12:10,140 --> 00:12:14,370 and create this lifestyle brand which went truly global. 305 00:12:14,370 --> 00:12:17,100 - What I love about David is that he's a straight shooter. 306 00:12:17,100 --> 00:12:19,500 Real growth doesn't come from cutting costs, 307 00:12:19,500 --> 00:12:22,080 it comes from finding those moments of truth 308 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:23,007 with the customer. 309 00:12:23,007 --> 00:12:25,350 And someone else who knew this incredibly well 310 00:12:25,350 --> 00:12:29,100 was Adrian Gore, Founder and Group CEO of Discovery. 311 00:12:29,100 --> 00:12:31,320 In the early '90s when Discovery mostly 312 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:33,120 was focused on health insurance, 313 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:36,150 South Africa faced a crisis, a lack of doctors, 314 00:12:36,150 --> 00:12:38,670 high levels of disease, and strict regulation. 315 00:12:38,670 --> 00:12:40,320 Gore's mission was clear, 316 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:43,080 make people healthier and safeguard their lives. 317 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:46,860 But his master stroke was to flip the insurance model. 318 00:12:46,860 --> 00:12:50,790 Rather than just covering illness, he set out to prevent it. 319 00:12:50,790 --> 00:12:52,830 He launched Vitality, 320 00:12:52,830 --> 00:12:55,680 a program that promotes healthier choices. 321 00:12:55,680 --> 00:12:57,990 Its promise, if you get healthier 322 00:12:57,990 --> 00:13:00,270 and make it cheaper for us to cover you, 323 00:13:00,270 --> 00:13:01,830 we'll share the benefits. 324 00:13:01,830 --> 00:13:04,290 Eat well, work out, get rewards. 325 00:13:04,290 --> 00:13:06,330 This shared value model, 326 00:13:06,330 --> 00:13:10,050 healthier customers, equal stronger profits, 327 00:13:10,050 --> 00:13:13,260 became Discovery's growth engine, and it worked. 328 00:13:13,260 --> 00:13:15,810 Discovery expanded beyond South Africa 329 00:13:15,810 --> 00:13:18,480 and is now in more than 40 markets worldwide. 330 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:21,000 That's vertical orientation. 331 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:23,130 Study what your customers are doing 332 00:13:23,130 --> 00:13:25,980 and find out new ways to help. 333 00:13:25,980 --> 00:13:27,630 By the way, my producer's gonna kill me on this, 334 00:13:27,630 --> 00:13:30,000 but I've gotta tell you guys a fun fact. 335 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:32,820 So about a decade ago, I was doing a founder's forum 336 00:13:32,820 --> 00:13:36,750 in South Africa, and Adrian Gore from Discovery was there, 337 00:13:36,750 --> 00:13:38,790 but so too is Robbie Brozin, 338 00:13:38,790 --> 00:13:40,920 the legendary founder of Nando's. 339 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:42,690 And it turns out both of them 340 00:13:42,690 --> 00:13:45,900 had gone to the same primary school at the same time 341 00:13:45,900 --> 00:13:48,690 and took the same bus, bus number four. 342 00:13:48,690 --> 00:13:50,010 And in my calculation, 343 00:13:50,010 --> 00:13:52,800 that bus driver has created more founders 344 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:55,320 than any other bus driver on earth. 345 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:56,910 Come on, prove me wrong. 346 00:13:56,910 --> 00:13:58,320 You know, the stories of Vodafone grow 347 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:00,240 and Discovery are about the same thing. 348 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:01,890 Understand your customer needs 349 00:14:01,890 --> 00:14:05,040 and make something insanely relevant to them. 350 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:07,920 And that's not just a lesson for telecom or TAPs. 351 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:09,690 Our next guest, Iona Gaskell 352 00:14:09,690 --> 00:14:12,660 who develops artist identities at Abubilla Music, 353 00:14:12,660 --> 00:14:14,430 puts it even more starkly. 354 00:14:14,430 --> 00:14:16,890 Before you can connect with fans, 355 00:14:16,890 --> 00:14:19,320 you need to know exactly who you are. 356 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:20,820 It's a conversation. 357 00:14:20,820 --> 00:14:23,670 At Vodafone, David began with a simple slogan, 358 00:14:23,670 --> 00:14:24,930 how are you? 359 00:14:24,930 --> 00:14:28,053 For Iona, the starting point's deeper, who are you? 360 00:14:28,890 --> 00:14:32,970 - My role is head of artist voice as well as outreach. 361 00:14:32,970 --> 00:14:35,670 So that is both working with artists 362 00:14:35,670 --> 00:14:38,940 when we first sign them to help them 363 00:14:38,940 --> 00:14:42,240 and us figure out who the hell they are as an artist. 364 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:43,920 And the first step of what we're trying to do 365 00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:46,800 is build their, like, artist manifesto. 366 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:49,920 So we try and create a kind of keystone document 367 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:54,390 that articulates a mission statement and their values 368 00:14:54,390 --> 00:14:57,630 and, you know, the characteristics 369 00:14:57,630 --> 00:15:00,090 that feel most core to them, 370 00:15:00,090 --> 00:15:02,040 that they want to communicate with the world, 371 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:07,040 and also the interesting frictions within that personality 372 00:15:08,220 --> 00:15:10,410 that are actually what makes them unique. 373 00:15:10,410 --> 00:15:13,650 - You're talking about what are conflicts inherent 374 00:15:13,650 --> 00:15:16,770 with them, or what did you mean by that? 375 00:15:16,770 --> 00:15:18,660 - In that initial discovery phase, 376 00:15:18,660 --> 00:15:20,160 there is often a pattern emerges 377 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:22,590 that there are a few conflicts 378 00:15:22,590 --> 00:15:24,900 and tensions within their character. 379 00:15:24,900 --> 00:15:27,128 If as a label we came along and said, 380 00:15:27,128 --> 00:15:30,870 well, you can't be both a sort of, 381 00:15:30,870 --> 00:15:35,430 like, really thoughtful, intellectual activist artist 382 00:15:35,430 --> 00:15:39,930 and also a goofy, playful nerd. 383 00:15:39,930 --> 00:15:41,910 And we might say you have to pick one or the other, 384 00:15:41,910 --> 00:15:43,830 smooth out those contradictions, 385 00:15:43,830 --> 00:15:46,020 but in doing so, you flatten the surface 386 00:15:46,020 --> 00:15:50,700 and you create something too smooth and impenetrable 387 00:15:50,700 --> 00:15:54,870 that doesn't have the eccentricities and quirks 388 00:15:54,870 --> 00:15:58,440 that actually make interesting people and interesting art. 389 00:15:58,440 --> 00:15:59,880 - You know, in business we'd say, 390 00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:01,440 where does the customer come 391 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:03,480 into all this brand development. 392 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:05,610 In your artist voice work, you know, 393 00:16:05,610 --> 00:16:08,100 kind of where do the fans come in? 394 00:16:08,100 --> 00:16:12,330 - Well, fans are obviously so important to artists, 395 00:16:12,330 --> 00:16:17,160 but you can't make art via focus group. 396 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:20,160 What I think is really important 397 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:24,150 is starting with them figuring out so strongly who they are 398 00:16:24,150 --> 00:16:25,230 and then what is the world 399 00:16:25,230 --> 00:16:28,290 that they're trying to build around their art. 400 00:16:28,290 --> 00:16:32,460 And it's into that world that we wanna invite people in 401 00:16:32,460 --> 00:16:35,370 and find the people who are going to love it there. 402 00:16:35,370 --> 00:16:36,203 It probably means 403 00:16:36,203 --> 00:16:37,890 that there are gonna be other people who hate it. 404 00:16:37,890 --> 00:16:40,980 You don't want to build an artist world 405 00:16:40,980 --> 00:16:43,210 that everybody thinks is kind of fine 406 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:46,560 because that way you are not going 407 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:50,160 to really find your people that you really want 408 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:53,220 to be in dialogue with through the music that you're making. 409 00:16:53,220 --> 00:16:54,720 - What has been your learning 410 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:57,810 once that artist actually starts creating music 411 00:16:57,810 --> 00:16:59,733 and releasing it into that world? 412 00:17:02,790 --> 00:17:04,950 - We have found that it tends to be 413 00:17:04,950 --> 00:17:08,070 that you then need to start adjusting. 414 00:17:08,070 --> 00:17:13,070 An example I can give is, an artist that I've worked with, 415 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:16,350 they had an idea of everything they put out 416 00:17:16,350 --> 00:17:20,460 being incredibly highly curated and intentional 417 00:17:20,460 --> 00:17:24,150 and kinda high production value, very glossy. 418 00:17:24,150 --> 00:17:26,610 And so for the first set of releases, 419 00:17:26,610 --> 00:17:27,443 that's what we went with. 420 00:17:27,443 --> 00:17:32,443 We sort of planned those kinds of pieces of storytelling, 421 00:17:32,580 --> 00:17:35,010 and they did okay, 422 00:17:35,010 --> 00:17:40,010 but the thing that landed was a three minute video 423 00:17:40,170 --> 00:17:42,420 that they just recorded on their phone 424 00:17:42,420 --> 00:17:44,220 when they were kind of mad about something, 425 00:17:44,220 --> 00:17:46,350 like they'd seen something that pissed them off 426 00:17:46,350 --> 00:17:49,380 and they just recorded a reaction it 427 00:17:49,380 --> 00:17:52,140 that through which their real character came through. 428 00:17:52,140 --> 00:17:54,480 It was speaking to these topics 429 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:56,070 that they really felt were underrepresented, 430 00:17:56,070 --> 00:17:59,160 but there was an immediacy in it 431 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:01,680 that is what really resonated with people. 432 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:05,130 So much work has to go into laying that groundwork. 433 00:18:05,130 --> 00:18:07,170 Then it's kind of like catching lightning. 434 00:18:07,170 --> 00:18:09,210 You cannot predict the moment 435 00:18:09,210 --> 00:18:11,460 that the lightning bolt is going to strike. 436 00:18:11,460 --> 00:18:14,640 You just have to be really prepared 437 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:16,800 so that when it happens you can respond 438 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:19,380 with your full authentic self. 439 00:18:19,380 --> 00:18:21,300 And that is what will make that moment 440 00:18:21,300 --> 00:18:24,000 be the catching lightning or the moment of truth. 441 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:26,310 That's what will make it be real. 442 00:18:26,310 --> 00:18:29,520 - You know, it's that phrase again, moments of truth. 443 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:31,710 For Iona, it's when an artist's music 444 00:18:31,710 --> 00:18:33,330 not only reaches the audience 445 00:18:33,330 --> 00:18:36,000 but truly resonates with that audience. 446 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:39,090 And for David it's when a product proves why it's different, 447 00:18:39,090 --> 00:18:42,030 why it's special, why it's better, and does so in a way 448 00:18:42,030 --> 00:18:44,490 that the customer really understands. 449 00:18:44,490 --> 00:18:46,470 Different worlds but same concept, 450 00:18:46,470 --> 00:18:48,363 it's kind of the moment people get it. 451 00:18:48,363 --> 00:18:50,970 But, you know, once you spark that moment, 452 00:18:50,970 --> 00:18:54,060 the hardest act of leadership is keeping it alive 453 00:18:54,060 --> 00:18:56,430 because your success means you grow, 454 00:18:56,430 --> 00:18:59,640 and that grow means the pole of horizontal 455 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:01,620 starts taking you outside the window 456 00:19:01,620 --> 00:19:03,270 where you're looking at customers 457 00:19:03,270 --> 00:19:05,430 and back into those internal meetings, 458 00:19:05,430 --> 00:19:08,190 back into the endless seminars. 459 00:19:08,190 --> 00:19:10,230 So the question for David was, 460 00:19:10,230 --> 00:19:14,730 how do you stay vertical, connected to the customer 461 00:19:14,730 --> 00:19:16,980 when the pole of complexity 462 00:19:16,980 --> 00:19:18,993 keeps dragging leadership sideways? 463 00:19:20,250 --> 00:19:25,140 - I've always worked since I've been in leadership positions 464 00:19:25,140 --> 00:19:26,970 with these manifestos, 465 00:19:26,970 --> 00:19:29,820 and you've seen over the years manifestos that grow. 466 00:19:29,820 --> 00:19:32,610 You've seen them for Flora Food Group, various versions. 467 00:19:32,610 --> 00:19:34,170 What is a manifesto? 468 00:19:34,170 --> 00:19:38,430 A manifesto tries to say, what is our true vision? 469 00:19:38,430 --> 00:19:40,560 What is our purpose? What is our mission? 470 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:43,260 What are our annual targets? What are our values? 471 00:19:43,260 --> 00:19:45,087 What are we good at? What are we not good at? 472 00:19:45,087 --> 00:19:48,840 And what are our key imperatives broken down into actions? 473 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:50,250 I try and always ask the question, 474 00:19:50,250 --> 00:19:53,910 what's the equivalent of the Kennedy put a man on the Moon 475 00:19:53,910 --> 00:19:56,490 and bring him back safely by the end of the decade 476 00:19:56,490 --> 00:19:58,860 when he went to NASA in 1963? 477 00:19:58,860 --> 00:20:00,481 And so I've always tried to do that, 478 00:20:00,481 --> 00:20:03,750 create a very clear purpose for our organizations, 479 00:20:03,750 --> 00:20:06,930 and at the end, the consumer is always in the middle, 480 00:20:06,930 --> 00:20:09,360 because what's business about? 481 00:20:09,360 --> 00:20:12,900 It's about selling more stuff to more people more often 482 00:20:12,900 --> 00:20:13,770 at the end of the day. 483 00:20:13,770 --> 00:20:17,700 And so as a CEO, I think it's very important 484 00:20:17,700 --> 00:20:19,800 that you stay on this vertical focus, 485 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:21,570 have the voice of your customer 486 00:20:21,570 --> 00:20:22,830 in discussions that you're talking about. 487 00:20:22,830 --> 00:20:25,530 And yes, of course, you've gotta run all the processes 488 00:20:25,530 --> 00:20:27,300 and deal with all the shareholder issues, 489 00:20:27,300 --> 00:20:28,380 the various stakeholder issues. 490 00:20:28,380 --> 00:20:30,360 Of course, that's part of the day job. 491 00:20:30,360 --> 00:20:32,580 But I think it's really dangerous for a CEO 492 00:20:32,580 --> 00:20:34,170 when he loses sight 493 00:20:34,170 --> 00:20:36,120 of what actually the companies are trying to do. 494 00:20:36,120 --> 00:20:39,240 I pilgrimage over regularly to Bentonville in Arkansas 495 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:40,620 to talk to the guys at Walmart 496 00:20:40,620 --> 00:20:42,450 or talk to the German retailers. 497 00:20:42,450 --> 00:20:45,090 I was down in Cologne recently talking to Ava. 498 00:20:45,090 --> 00:20:46,500 Yes, of course, I still do that 499 00:20:46,500 --> 00:20:47,817 because I learn so much, right? 500 00:20:47,817 --> 00:20:49,290 And we invite our customers 501 00:20:49,290 --> 00:20:50,910 to our customer experience center 502 00:20:50,910 --> 00:20:52,950 where we show them our culinary products 503 00:20:52,950 --> 00:20:54,720 and we try and point out how relevant they are 504 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:57,270 and how this is not just a simple then tap company, 505 00:20:57,270 --> 00:20:58,440 now margarine company. 506 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:01,350 What we're offering is solutions to problems 507 00:21:01,350 --> 00:21:03,300 with Moments Of Truth, with relevant brands, 508 00:21:03,300 --> 00:21:05,850 with relevant products, with relevant ideas. 509 00:21:05,850 --> 00:21:08,730 And so there is a red thread through these manifestos 510 00:21:08,730 --> 00:21:11,640 of relevance, purpose, vision, mission. 511 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:12,990 I'm a big believer in values. 512 00:21:12,990 --> 00:21:14,490 And again, at Flora Food Group, 513 00:21:14,490 --> 00:21:16,230 you know, we have three values, 514 00:21:16,230 --> 00:21:20,400 performance, passion, and care. 515 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:23,040 Clearly we're a performance-driven organization, 516 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:25,080 but we're also a caring organization. 517 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:26,850 You know, we saw that how important that was 518 00:21:26,850 --> 00:21:28,800 through COVID and the like. 519 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:30,240 And I think as you get older, 520 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:31,980 you learn a bit, right, hopefully. 521 00:21:31,980 --> 00:21:33,030 When you hang around good people, 522 00:21:33,030 --> 00:21:34,920 if you're not stupid, you do pick up the odd thing. 523 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:39,210 - What do you want the new 25-year-old David 524 00:21:39,210 --> 00:21:42,090 to get from the manifesto? 525 00:21:42,090 --> 00:21:43,890 - If I think back to the mid-1980s, 526 00:21:43,890 --> 00:21:47,940 I was inspired by John Forrest Mars, 527 00:21:47,940 --> 00:21:49,350 and in fact many of the other Mars leaders 528 00:21:49,350 --> 00:21:50,820 with whom I'm still friends. 529 00:21:50,820 --> 00:21:52,500 And why was I inspired? 530 00:21:52,500 --> 00:21:54,000 I believed in what the company was trying to do, 531 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:55,050 I believed in their values, 532 00:21:55,050 --> 00:21:56,700 I believed in the bigger picture. 533 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:00,600 And if my manifestos, our Flora Food Group manifestos 534 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:02,580 can deliver the same inspiration 535 00:22:02,580 --> 00:22:03,810 with where the company's trying to go, 536 00:22:03,810 --> 00:22:05,130 with what we're trying to do, 537 00:22:05,130 --> 00:22:07,080 if I can inspire young men and women 538 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:09,870 to sign up and come with us on that journey 539 00:22:09,870 --> 00:22:12,840 and they can find their home in that environment, right, 540 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:14,520 which is a performance-driven one. 541 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:15,720 And let's be clear about it. 542 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:19,440 A performance-driven organization is not for everybody. 543 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:21,660 And by the way, I'm also very clear about that. 544 00:22:21,660 --> 00:22:23,310 It's not a judgment of someone 545 00:22:23,310 --> 00:22:24,960 if they don't want to go for it, 546 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:26,640 but, you know, frankly, we like people 547 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:30,030 who wanna play the top of the champions league, 548 00:22:30,030 --> 00:22:32,070 and if you don't want to, that's fine, 549 00:22:32,070 --> 00:22:34,350 but please go and play somewhere else, that's okay. 550 00:22:34,350 --> 00:22:38,040 - How do you connect with those young men and women 551 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:40,410 that you're trying to inspire? 552 00:22:40,410 --> 00:22:42,660 What's the process by which you talk to them? 553 00:22:43,620 --> 00:22:46,920 - Well, still I try and walk the talk, right? 554 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:48,330 I mean, I still visit shops 555 00:22:48,330 --> 00:22:51,990 and I still do what is called a red is good call 556 00:22:51,990 --> 00:22:54,150 where the people down in the organization 557 00:22:54,150 --> 00:22:56,970 are invited with myself and our HR director. 558 00:22:56,970 --> 00:22:59,250 Once every quarter, there's groups of eight 559 00:22:59,250 --> 00:23:00,300 to tell us what they think 560 00:23:00,300 --> 00:23:02,490 about the company that's not working. 561 00:23:02,490 --> 00:23:04,620 We're not interested in the stuff that is working. 562 00:23:04,620 --> 00:23:08,040 That's easy. But what would they improve? 563 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:10,080 What's their advice? And it's quite hard, right? 564 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:12,660 'Cause a lot of people don't wanna open up, 565 00:23:12,660 --> 00:23:15,060 they don't wanna bring bad news. 566 00:23:15,060 --> 00:23:17,550 But I mean, I'm very fortunate 567 00:23:17,550 --> 00:23:20,260 to work with an outstanding chief financial officer 568 00:23:21,270 --> 00:23:22,890 at Flora, Florence Naviner. 569 00:23:22,890 --> 00:23:25,927 And she's always on the case and requesting, 570 00:23:25,927 --> 00:23:28,980 "Hey, you know, bad news does not age well. 571 00:23:28,980 --> 00:23:30,150 Let's get it out on the table. 572 00:23:30,150 --> 00:23:31,200 We got a chance of fixing it." 573 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:32,760 And so we have all the formal stuff, 574 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:34,710 but I think the informal stuff 575 00:23:34,710 --> 00:23:37,200 where you just talk to people is even more important. 576 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:38,460 By the way, having two kids, you know, 577 00:23:38,460 --> 00:23:40,170 are in their early 30s and in their business world 578 00:23:40,170 --> 00:23:41,610 doesn't do any harm either 579 00:23:41,610 --> 00:23:43,290 and get their pretty honest feedback, 580 00:23:43,290 --> 00:23:44,880 which they both love to give me frequently. 581 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:46,410 - I bet. Yeah. 582 00:23:46,410 --> 00:23:48,750 - So stay connected, right, and stay humble. 583 00:23:48,750 --> 00:23:52,290 There's one thing over the years I suppose 584 00:23:52,290 --> 00:23:53,823 is to stay down to earth. 585 00:23:54,930 --> 00:23:59,160 Stay humble, stay on the ground, talk to people, 586 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:01,380 stay normal, and create an environment 587 00:24:01,380 --> 00:24:03,090 where people are okay to tell you the truth. 588 00:24:03,090 --> 00:24:05,730 - So David, this vertical orientation, 589 00:24:05,730 --> 00:24:08,280 this time that you're committing these red is good, 590 00:24:09,300 --> 00:24:11,610 most CEOs will also say, "God, if I only had the time 591 00:24:11,610 --> 00:24:13,200 and energy to do that stuff." 592 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:16,050 So what gets in the way of your vertical orientation? 593 00:24:16,050 --> 00:24:17,820 What do you have to fight? 594 00:24:17,820 --> 00:24:19,710 - You have to fight the calendar, 595 00:24:19,710 --> 00:24:22,260 you know, where everyone's trying to get in the calendar 596 00:24:22,260 --> 00:24:24,900 of all the various stakeholders that I'm involved with. 597 00:24:24,900 --> 00:24:27,540 I mean, as you mentioned, 598 00:24:27,540 --> 00:24:32,310 I've been CEO now in private equity finance organizations. 599 00:24:32,310 --> 00:24:36,480 The shareholder management is a big part of it in PE, 600 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:38,880 setting expectations, reporting, 601 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:40,650 discussing issues, getting advice. 602 00:24:40,650 --> 00:24:42,990 I'm also very fortunate I've got an outstanding chairman 603 00:24:42,990 --> 00:24:45,540 and a gentleman called Sir Roger Carr, 604 00:24:45,540 --> 00:24:47,100 a veteran of British industry. 605 00:24:47,100 --> 00:24:48,270 There's the shareholder management, 606 00:24:48,270 --> 00:24:49,620 there's the other stakeholders, 607 00:24:49,620 --> 00:24:53,340 the organizational processes, this permanent reviews, 608 00:24:53,340 --> 00:24:55,470 but they are all part of the day job. 609 00:24:55,470 --> 00:24:58,800 But what I do is try and spend time, 610 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:03,300 I think you would call it deep work in Bain-speak, 611 00:25:03,300 --> 00:25:05,910 thinking about how we stay true north 612 00:25:05,910 --> 00:25:06,750 of what we're trying to do, 613 00:25:06,750 --> 00:25:08,640 this vertical thing, consumer orientation. 614 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:10,290 And for that I often get accused 615 00:25:10,290 --> 00:25:12,090 of being the optimist in the room, right? 616 00:25:12,090 --> 00:25:14,490 But I think you have to in the CEO role, 617 00:25:14,490 --> 00:25:16,156 where are we trying to go? What's our vision? 618 00:25:16,156 --> 00:25:17,730 What are we gonna do in the next three months, six months? 619 00:25:17,730 --> 00:25:19,200 But what are we gonna do in three years? 620 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:21,600 Because, you know, if I don't do that, then it won't happen 621 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:22,920 'cause everyone else is getting consumed 622 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:24,870 by delivering this week's, this month's, 623 00:25:24,870 --> 00:25:27,420 next quarter's numbers, which is right by the way. 624 00:25:27,420 --> 00:25:29,160 I mean, that's our job. 625 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:31,410 And we had a world global call only yesterday 626 00:25:31,410 --> 00:25:32,640 with our top 100 leaders. 627 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:35,310 And there I was preaching, of course, 628 00:25:35,310 --> 00:25:38,430 deliver our FCO 6 for 2025, 629 00:25:38,430 --> 00:25:40,320 'cause now's the time, you have to remind everybody of that, 630 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,080 now is not the time for fancy vision stuff. 631 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:45,000 You know, there's also, let's be honest, 632 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:47,070 there's a time and a place for everything. 633 00:25:47,070 --> 00:25:50,040 So in the end, what are the crown jewels 634 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:52,230 of an organization that I work in? 635 00:25:52,230 --> 00:25:53,640 I always think there are two. 636 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:54,990 There's of course the brands 637 00:25:54,990 --> 00:25:57,870 which you inherit in whatever state they are 638 00:25:57,870 --> 00:25:59,400 and you try and leave whenever you leave 639 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:01,380 in a better state when you pass the baton. 640 00:26:01,380 --> 00:26:03,570 But the older I get, the more you realize 641 00:26:03,570 --> 00:26:05,190 it's actually all about the other crown jewel 642 00:26:05,190 --> 00:26:06,240 as well the people. 643 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:10,620 And I know this is an old cliche, so forgive me for it. 644 00:26:10,620 --> 00:26:12,993 Surround yourself with outstanding people. 645 00:26:13,855 --> 00:26:16,650 And I have an optimistic disposition, thank God. 646 00:26:16,650 --> 00:26:18,360 I didn't choose it. It kind of happened. 647 00:26:18,360 --> 00:26:19,680 And I do think in these roles, 648 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:21,240 'cause they are, the other thing I would say, right, 649 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:24,210 these CEO roles, and I try and point it out at home, 650 00:26:24,210 --> 00:26:25,920 they are seriously lonelier. 651 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:27,780 - Why is it lonely? 652 00:26:27,780 --> 00:26:29,550 - You know, you're making tough decisions 653 00:26:29,550 --> 00:26:33,090 that affect thousands of peoples lives at times. 654 00:26:33,090 --> 00:26:34,380 In Grohe the restructuring 655 00:26:34,380 --> 00:26:35,610 that we had to do when we walked in. 656 00:26:35,610 --> 00:26:37,500 We had to let a lot of people go. 657 00:26:37,500 --> 00:26:40,410 It was front page news in the German press 658 00:26:40,410 --> 00:26:41,940 for the whole locust debate, you know. 659 00:26:41,940 --> 00:26:44,280 It's pretty lonely when you death threats, 660 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:45,570 when you have a book written about you, 661 00:26:45,570 --> 00:26:46,440 which is still published, 662 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:48,360 by the way, in Germany to have you killed. 663 00:26:48,360 --> 00:26:49,650 That's pretty lonely. 664 00:26:49,650 --> 00:26:53,310 When you're dealing with very deep personal issues 665 00:26:53,310 --> 00:26:54,143 of your colleagues 666 00:26:54,143 --> 00:26:55,890 that you know about in their personal lives. 667 00:26:55,890 --> 00:26:58,770 Over the years together we've seen many tough situations, 668 00:26:58,770 --> 00:27:02,490 whether it's health issues, personal issues, career issues, 669 00:27:02,490 --> 00:27:06,540 and to stay focused and optimistic in the organization 670 00:27:06,540 --> 00:27:08,580 when everyone's looking at you all the time 671 00:27:08,580 --> 00:27:11,010 and looking not at you, but, you know, what you do, 672 00:27:11,010 --> 00:27:13,743 what you say, how you act, how you behave. 673 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:16,860 You know, you're always on. 674 00:27:16,860 --> 00:27:19,890 That's where you need to be surrounded by also at home 675 00:27:19,890 --> 00:27:21,180 and in your personal life 676 00:27:21,180 --> 00:27:25,530 hobbies, activities, and an infrastructure 677 00:27:25,530 --> 00:27:27,880 that has nothing to do with your business card. 678 00:27:29,190 --> 00:27:31,080 - I think this is the most underrated 679 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:33,540 yet vital trait of great leaders. 680 00:27:33,540 --> 00:27:36,320 It's the courage to be authentic, to be vulnerable, 681 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:39,180 to talk about the things that no one else dares mention. 682 00:27:39,180 --> 00:27:42,000 David said it. The CEO job can be lonely. 683 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,700 I mean, you know a lot of things you can't share. 684 00:27:44,700 --> 00:27:47,460 There are a couple decisions that only you can make. 685 00:27:47,460 --> 00:27:49,680 And everybody wants your energy, 686 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:53,310 but very few feel it's important to give you their energy. 687 00:27:53,310 --> 00:27:55,950 You know, I love that David walks the talk. 688 00:27:55,950 --> 00:27:57,750 It's his openness and honesty 689 00:27:57,750 --> 00:28:01,110 that then can spark real adult conversations 690 00:28:01,110 --> 00:28:03,120 in those red is good meetings 691 00:28:03,120 --> 00:28:04,890 and it's what turns a manifesto, 692 00:28:04,890 --> 00:28:07,830 which could so easily just be words on a wall, 693 00:28:07,830 --> 00:28:09,900 into something people can live by. 694 00:28:09,900 --> 00:28:11,040 And if you want more stories 695 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:13,530 of CEOs really telling it like it is, 696 00:28:13,530 --> 00:28:15,390 check the link in our show notes. 697 00:28:15,390 --> 00:28:18,093 And now back to David with some rapid fire questions. 698 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:21,420 What brings you energy? 699 00:28:21,420 --> 00:28:22,830 - I love to build brands. 700 00:28:22,830 --> 00:28:25,830 Take a brand, whatever state it's in, sort it out, 701 00:28:25,830 --> 00:28:27,240 move it forward, and get it healthy. 702 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:28,650 I love it. It's a real kick. 703 00:28:28,650 --> 00:28:30,980 - So what drains you of energy? 704 00:28:30,980 --> 00:28:32,601 - Yeah, shareholders 705 00:28:32,601 --> 00:28:35,700 who have what I call master of the universe-itis. 706 00:28:35,700 --> 00:28:37,710 - I know what you're talking about. 707 00:28:37,710 --> 00:28:40,830 Do you have energy vampires in your work? 708 00:28:40,830 --> 00:28:43,230 - You always have some energy vampires, 709 00:28:43,230 --> 00:28:45,360 and it's often difficult to find them, 710 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:46,680 but you gotta find them. 711 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:47,970 And I use a simple methodology, 712 00:28:47,970 --> 00:28:50,400 what I call a Skill Will Matrix. 713 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:53,190 HR gang hate it 'cause they think it's far too simple, 714 00:28:53,190 --> 00:28:55,950 but it's, you know, skill on the X-axis, will on the Y-axis, 715 00:28:55,950 --> 00:28:57,750 and just plot where everybody is. 716 00:28:57,750 --> 00:29:00,360 And clearly bottom left hand corner, frankly, 717 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:01,620 no point in having a long conversation, 718 00:29:01,620 --> 00:29:06,300 deal with high skill, but low will serious conversation 719 00:29:06,300 --> 00:29:08,100 and actually the most dangerous. 720 00:29:08,100 --> 00:29:10,290 So you either need to get them on board or out. 721 00:29:10,290 --> 00:29:12,210 Low skill, high will, train. 722 00:29:12,210 --> 00:29:14,670 High skill, high will, let 'em loose. 723 00:29:14,670 --> 00:29:17,190 - What's the best advice you've ever received? 724 00:29:17,190 --> 00:29:19,890 - It's a simple one, given to me by a French, 725 00:29:19,890 --> 00:29:22,257 very successful businessman when I was 28 years old 726 00:29:22,257 --> 00:29:23,970 and was having my first child. 727 00:29:23,970 --> 00:29:26,370 Take your family out for lunch every Sunday. 728 00:29:26,370 --> 00:29:28,620 Your kids can't run off to the bedroom 729 00:29:28,620 --> 00:29:29,880 when you try and have a conversation. 730 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:31,410 Your wife doesn't have to spend the morning 731 00:29:31,410 --> 00:29:32,610 or you have to have done, have to spend the morning 732 00:29:32,610 --> 00:29:35,363 in the kitchen cooking and you actually get some good food. 733 00:29:36,630 --> 00:29:39,090 - Okay, let's recap some of our key takeaways 734 00:29:39,090 --> 00:29:40,293 from today's episode. 735 00:29:41,670 --> 00:29:43,110 - You don't win with great PowerPoint. 736 00:29:43,110 --> 00:29:44,190 You have to have great ideas 737 00:29:44,190 --> 00:29:46,620 based on a strong strategy and insight. 738 00:29:46,620 --> 00:29:50,820 Ours was ask a simple human question. How are you? 739 00:29:50,820 --> 00:29:53,970 That simple insight that we tried to then bring to life 740 00:29:53,970 --> 00:29:56,670 through various, you know, advertising tools, 741 00:29:56,670 --> 00:29:57,720 we tried to make our brand 742 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,120 the most relevant brand of the day. 743 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,190 - No matter how big the organization, 744 00:30:02,190 --> 00:30:05,580 great leadership still comes down to one thing, 745 00:30:05,580 --> 00:30:07,620 never losing sight of the customer. 746 00:30:07,620 --> 00:30:10,230 I mean, do you measure your day in slides 747 00:30:10,230 --> 00:30:12,510 or conversations with customers 748 00:30:12,510 --> 00:30:14,060 and the people that serve them? 749 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:17,790 - The moment of truth was called CoolTouch. 750 00:30:17,790 --> 00:30:19,680 And it was a concept that suddenly, 751 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:24,660 very simply gave the plumber, the architect, the designer 752 00:30:24,660 --> 00:30:27,663 a reason to recommend our products to the consumer. 753 00:30:28,650 --> 00:30:31,740 - You know, you've gotta win across the whole ecosystem. 754 00:30:31,740 --> 00:30:32,790 Guess what? 755 00:30:32,790 --> 00:30:35,670 Doesn't actually matter how ideas leave your office. 756 00:30:35,670 --> 00:30:38,403 What matters is how they hit the customer. 757 00:30:39,510 --> 00:30:40,530 - I've always tried to do that, 758 00:30:40,530 --> 00:30:44,160 create a very clear purpose for our organizations. 759 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:47,340 And at the end, the consumer is always in the middle, 760 00:30:47,340 --> 00:30:49,140 because what's business about? 761 00:30:49,140 --> 00:30:51,450 It's about selling more stuff to more people more often 762 00:30:51,450 --> 00:30:53,340 at the end of the day. 763 00:30:53,340 --> 00:30:56,400 - To stay vertical, David keeps returning to the mission, 764 00:30:56,400 --> 00:31:00,420 to the manifesto, to the relentless customer focus. 765 00:31:00,420 --> 00:31:02,040 It's connection with the frontline, 766 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:04,020 but it's also how you act every day. 767 00:31:04,020 --> 00:31:06,060 Are you humble? Are you normal? 768 00:31:06,060 --> 00:31:07,470 And do you create an environment 769 00:31:07,470 --> 00:31:10,110 where people are empowered to tell the truth? 770 00:31:10,110 --> 00:31:12,060 You know, it's easy at the beginning. 771 00:31:12,060 --> 00:31:14,310 Every new customer is a huge victory. 772 00:31:14,310 --> 00:31:17,010 Every sale is a reason to celebrate. 773 00:31:17,010 --> 00:31:18,780 But as our businesses scale, 774 00:31:18,780 --> 00:31:22,110 these events aggregate into numbers. 775 00:31:22,110 --> 00:31:24,240 The millions of conversations 776 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:27,240 that lead to millions of dollars in sales, 777 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:29,700 well, they happily live in spreadsheets 778 00:31:29,700 --> 00:31:32,250 and stop echoing in our hallways. 779 00:31:32,250 --> 00:31:35,340 You know, your success is the result of you being relevant, 780 00:31:35,340 --> 00:31:38,100 of being edgy, of mattering to the customer 781 00:31:38,100 --> 00:31:40,140 more than any other offer. 782 00:31:40,140 --> 00:31:44,310 But it's that very success which creates complacency 783 00:31:44,310 --> 00:31:47,010 and a slow drift towards irrelevancy. 784 00:31:47,010 --> 00:31:49,800 So how does a company keep its edge? 785 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:52,590 And how do you find the energy to stay relevant 786 00:31:52,590 --> 00:31:55,590 year after year after year? 787 00:31:55,590 --> 00:31:59,010 Well, in our next episode, we're gonna talk to Pedro Arnt. 788 00:31:59,010 --> 00:32:03,210 He's CEO of dLocal and former CFO of Mercado Libre. 789 00:32:03,210 --> 00:32:05,670 And he's gonna be talking to us about what it means 790 00:32:05,670 --> 00:32:09,360 to stay relevant through a period of hypergrowth. 791 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:11,400 So we'll see you in the next episode, 792 00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:14,043 and until then, stay curious. 793 00:32:15,292 --> 00:32:17,875 (upbeat music)